Patterico's Pontifications

3/25/2013

Cyprus Raids Bank Deposits

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 4:08 pm



I told you the other day that, even though the Cyprian parliament had rejected a plan to raid bank deposits, the country basically had no other choice if it wanted to stay in the Eurozone. Just call me Carnac:

Backed by euro zone finance ministers, the plan will spare the Mediterranean island a financial catastrophe by winding down the largely state-owned Popular Bank of Cyprus, also known as Laiki, and shifting deposits below 100,000 euros to the Bank of Cyprus to create a “good bank”.

Deposits above 100,000 euros in both banks, which are not guaranteed under EU law, will be frozen and used to resolve Laiki’s debts and recapitalize Bank of Cyprus, the island’s biggest, through a deposit/equity conversion.

The raid on uninsured Laiki depositors is expected to raise 4.2 billion euros, Eurogroup chairman Jeroen Dijssebloem said.

So how big a hit are the depositors going to take if they have accounts over 100,000 Euros? Wellllll, I’d say it’s . . . kinda hefty:

An EU spokesman said no across-the-board levy or tax would be imposed on deposits in Cypriot banks, although the hit on large account holders in the two biggest banks is likely to be far greater than initially planned. A first attempt at a deal last week collapsed when the Cypriot parliament rejected a proposed levy on all deposits.

. . . .

Asked about the level of losses on uninsured depositors in Bank of Cyprus, [a government spokesman] told state radio: “The assessment is that it will be under or around 30 percent.”

Ouch. Almost a third of your cash on deposit over 100,000 Euros, gone. Overnight. Yoink!

Mark my words: there will be a run on Spanish and Italian banks. It’s just a matter of time.

125 Responses to “Cyprus Raids Bank Deposits”

  1. On FOX they said it might be as much as 40%

    Icy (42a92a)

  2. Nothing to see here — they’re just being made to pay their fair share.

    Icy (42a92a)

  3. Silly me, I thought the EU was just fine. I thought all you had to do was have the central bank print moar money and buy government bonds. I do not understand how TPTB missed the problems in Cyprus.

    highpockets (ff5fd5)

  4. if we’re smart, there will be a run on the banks here.

    but, then again, if we were smart, Romney would be President right now.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  5. i wouldn’t keep any money even in an american bank over and above what was insured

    Russians are stupid

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  6. But hey, this will restore confidence in the banking system!

    I know nothing restores my confidence quite like thieves helping themselves to my money.

    Craig Mc (a4926c)

  7. I bet they have gun control laws.

    JD (b63a52)

  8. MOLON LABE

    Leviticus (17b7a5)

  9. JD wrote:

    I bet they have gun control laws.

    You’d win that bet.

    The Dana who looked it up (af9ec3)

  10. I bet they have gun control laws.

    Yep. Via DaTechGuy:

    Cyprus has strict gun control. Private citizens are completely forbidden from owning handguns and rifles in any calber, even .22 rimfire. Only shotguns are allowed, and these require a license. Shotguns are limited to two rounds. The only shotguns typically sold in stores are double-barreled side-by-sides or over-unders. Pump actions and semiautomatics are prohibited.

    Over at his site, there’s already the “THERE’S NO CONNECTION” shrieking.

    Rob Crawford (d8dade)

  11. Our esteemed host wrote:

    Mark my words: there will be a run on Spanish and Italian banks. It’s just a matter of time.

    It won’t be a matter of very much time.

    The economist Dana (af9ec3)

  12. Dang– I posted this on the wrong thread. This is the one I meant.

    Speaking of money–did any of you catch the recent radio cast of NPR’s excellent This American Life hour about SSDI and the disability scam? It’s well worth listening to –but trust me—you do need to have ready access to liquor and have all sharp objects locked away while you do it. Don’t be expecting that it’s typical NPR pap. The report is really quite well done in a true journalistic manner and it’s shocking. 14 million people and billions of dollars worth of shocking.

    http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/490/trends-with-benefits?act=0

    elissa (1abee6)

  13. All Cypriots know what to do with guns is market them in the illegal international arms trade when the profit is high enough.

    nk (c5b7ef)

  14. A lot of the Russian Mafia have money in those banks. Count on a few folks going “missing.”

    Gazzer (e1b57d)

  15. But remember, austerity doesn’t work (except in the places where it’s been tried, and did).

    scrubone (e7e0ea)

  16. There is a huge difference between scalping the accounts over the insurance limit (aka the uninsured) and scalping the insured deposits.

    I’m pretty sure that deposits in the US over the insurance threshold are subject to the same thing under current law. There is really no reason why someone would be that stupid here, but hell, we elected Obama.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  17. I think Cyprus has those gun laws to keep the Greeks from killing the Turks and vice versa.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  18. 17.I think Cyprus has those gun laws to keep the Greeks from killing the Turks and vice versa.

    Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 3/25/2013 @ 5:48 pm

    And now to keep the people from using it on the government.

    Bill M (c7f289)

  19. When guns are outlawed (in Cyprus) then only hitmen hired by Russian mobsters with recently-looted bank accounts will have guns.

    JVW (4826a9)

  20. That’s how socialists roll guys. They’ll be here for our IRA’s soon enough. After all if “you didn’t build that” then you don’t own it either. The big fat socialist lie continues.

    Hoagie (3259ab)

  21. there was a rich man from Russia
    who made all his green from oil gushah
    he banked it in Cyprus
    got butt-raped in anus
    he cried but EU said “now, shushya!”

    Colonel Haiku (9271c7)

  22. cyprus is ghetto but man check us out

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  23. 16

    I’m pretty sure that deposits in the US over the insurance threshold are subject to the same thing under current law. …

    This is correct. For example when IndyMac failed the uninsured depositors lost half their money. See here .

    This really isn’t a case of Cyprus “raiding” bank deposits, the banks have already lost the money, Cyprus just isn’t bailing them out.

    James B. Shearer (be0584)

  24. “Mark my words…”

    You mea like the Menendez underage prostitute scandal?

    You have the credibility of a piece of dried out dog crap except among the obvious morons who come here to share your delusions.

    High caliber (b4c0e5)

  25. My understanding is that they still have the Cypriot banks closed and will until Thursday? Did anyone see anything different?

    What an utter fiasco. The EU looks like a Keystone Kop show after this. It continues to undermine the European banks’ reputation in my opinion, and only increases the odds of an uncontrollable bank run on the next series of rumors in Europe.

    SPQR (768505)

  26. Evidently, the troll High Caliber thinks that Cypriot banks are just in great shape.

    You should be ashamed of yourself, Patterico, for doubting the immense integrity of the EU banking system. Tsk tsk.

    SPQR (768505)

  27. Worth remembering that the Eurocrats who are pulling this s**t are the decendents of the “best and brightest” that got Europe in all that trouble in the 30’s. Most of you don’t remember but 500,000 or so Americans paid the price for the Euros folly

    glenn (647d76)

  28. I think High Caliber is just plain angry at Patterico, just as all of Brett Kimberlin’s little submissives are.

    Patterico could write a post about the price of cataloupe, and this creepy stalker High Caliber would start ranting against cantaloupe, and perhaps even make the case for why honeydew melon is allegedly “better.”

    Elephant Stone (4fc635)

  29. cantaloupe is a diet do!

    eat this not that yup yup

    pro-tip: it also makes tasty smoothies!

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  30. Hai karate, is back, oh frabjous joy.

    narciso (3fec35)

  31. mister happyfeet

    cantaloupe is of outstanding nutritious value.
    it is loaded with vitamin A
    cut some of it up, and put it in your Oster blender, and you will have a fantastic smoothie

    Elephant Stone (4fc635)

  32. Teh high colonic
    Teh full moronic mullet
    mook leaves deposit

    Colonel Haiku (591848)

  33. i wish I had an oster I have a cuisinart blender i got at target for a hundred bucks and it sucks ass

    but it makes ok smoothies

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  34. And thank you, Chuck Schumer for touching off that bank run, Europe sold them the debt that has caused this situation, they they can take 30 cents off the dollar as their cut,

    narciso (3fec35)

  35. #20 moves ahead to the bonus round.

    AZ Bob (c11d35)

  36. “This really isn’t a case of Cyprus “raiding” bank deposits, the banks have already lost the money, Cyprus just isn’t bailing them out.”

    James – The EU insures deposits up to 100,000 Euros. The IMF/EU deal reached Saturday morning including a sliding scale of assessments against depositors by size, including those below 100,000 Euros. Because of the backlash, Cyprus immediately begin refashioning a new agreement to reduce the hit on small depositors and increase it on larger depositors, but the revised plan negotiated over the weekend still included soaking small depositors and was rejected by rejected by the Cypriot parliament. The earlier proposals were not at all not comparable to the U.S. bailouts you mentioned.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  37. High caliber is welcome to be specific. I’m right here.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  38. OT, did anyone tell him, not to do anything this foolish;

    http://dailycaller.com/2013/03/25/kerry-exposes-iranian-family-tie-and-subjects-family-to-blackmail/

    narciso (3fec35)

  39. kids say the darndest things.

    narciso–lurch and slo joe sure seem to have a lot in common when it comes to flapping their gums.

    elissa (1abee6)

  40. Right, but with Kerry, I cut him less slack, because of Winter Soldier, the Kerry Committee, et al,

    narciso (3fec35)

  41. what happens if there is NO money left to speak of in the banks to make the save they are planning?

    from Reuters via Zero Hedge

    While ordinary Cypriots queued at ATM machines to withdraw a few hundred euros as credit card transactions stopped, other depositors used an array of techniques to access their money.

    No one knows exactly how much money has left Cyprus’ banks, or where it has gone. The two banks at the centre of the crisis – Cyprus Popular Bank, also known as Laiki, and Bank of Cyprus – have units in London which remained open throughout the week and placed no limits on withdrawals. Bank of Cyprus also owns 80 percent of Russia’s Uniastrum Bank, which put no restrictions on withdrawals in Russia. Russians were among Cypriot banks’ largest depositors.

    if this is true, then what is the EU going to do?

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  42. The London operation apparently catered to hedge funds.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  43. Which you think would be the part they would keep a closer eye on, btw, Kerry like Hagel was a big supporter of NIAC.

    narciso (3fec35)

  44. B-b-but big gulps! Ace Ventura! Rubio drank water from the podium!!

    elissa (1abee6)

  45. Hint: The Russian money has been gone for a while. Those Oligarchs have anti-theft tools that work.

    glenn (647d76)

  46. these are exciting times to be a cypriot

    but this too shall pass

    and then it’ll just go back to being a suck-ass little island

    you know they’re very close to establishing civil unions in cyprus for the gay people

    it says so on wikipedia

    but in turkey cyprus they’re still very socially backwards

    this is because they’re turkish there, which is a retrograde culture made of stupid

    and that is the end of this episode of where in the world is happy sandiego thanks for watching and tell your mom to buy some pop-tarts so we keep the lights on around here

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  47. There hasn’t been that much excitement since 1974, when the Greek junta invaded,

    narciso (3fec35)

  48. 1974!!!

    man

    what is that

    the smoky and the bandit era?

    or was it more the dark 70s with dog day afternoon and karen black movies

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  49. sorry *smokey* and the bandit

    which was in 1977 the internet says

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  50. Airport was ’70, dog day was ’75, so you;re close, but no foozle,

    narciso (3fec35)

  51. The greeks used to have a nice little culture going there. You can read all about it in books on ancient history. The rise and fall of once great and successful civilizations is someting for us to ponder seriously I think.

    elissa (1abee6)

  52. it’s kind of an obscure little decade at best anyway

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  53. Of course there will be a run. *Any* country which is in need of an EU bailout, the depositors in that country can rationally conclude that their deposits are at risk now. Withdrawing the deposits is a sane response (even if it does, ironically, help trigger the very apocalypse, the fear of which causes the withdrawal).

    aphrael (b57693)

  54. James – the issue isn’t that the depositors are losing their money to the banks’ creditors. The issue is that the government is imposing a tax on the money and then using the proceeds from that tax to recapitalize the banks.

    aphrael (b57693)

  55. run lola run the bank is stealing your monies

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  56. you’re gonna have to be a little faster than that sweetie

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  57. “James – the issue isn’t that the depositors are losing their money to the banks’ creditors.”

    aphrael – The depositors are the banks’ creditors.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  58. Of course there will be a run. *Any* country which is in need of an EU bailout…

    Rich Italians keep their money in Swiss banks, which will fail last.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  59. Aphrael wrote:

    Of course there will be a run. *Any* country which is in need of an EU bailout, the depositors in that country can rationally conclude that their deposits are at risk now. Withdrawing the deposits is a sane response (even if it does, ironically, help trigger the very apocalypse, the fear of which causes the withdrawal).

    The EU did show a sane way to go: by guaranteeing the deposits under the €100,000 insurance limit, it was telling Europeans with more than €100,000 in liquid assets to bank them in multiple accounts. But the wiser thing would be to diversify: if you have €1,000,000 in cash assets, you put €100,000 in one bank, €100,000 in another bank, €100,000 in another bank in a different country, and $903,000 spread through various accounts in the United States.

    The economist Dana (3e4784)

  60. And there is a definite silver lining in this for the United States. It wasn’t all that long ago that OPEC was talking about setting prices in euros; if they had done that, we would have been totally [insert slang term for “fornicated” here]. With the recent troubles in Europe, there’s no more talk about that silliness, and the dollar remains the world’s reserve currency.

    We have huge debt problems, but as long as the dollar remains the world’s reserve currency, we have options other nations do not.

    The optimistic Dana (3e4784)

  61. 60. The optimistic Dana:

    We have huge debt problems, but as long as the dollar remains the world’s reserve currency, we have options other nations do not.

    Right, and for preserving the world’s reserve currency as the dollar, you have President Obama and the Dems to thank for that, with a little bit of help from Hank Paulson, all done in the midst of a massive global recession.

    No American in their right mind is happy with our large debt, but let us place the blame factually, worth reemphasizing for the benefit of Righties who too easily forget or obfuscate.

    Under Bush-43, our deficit went from decreasing to increasing, and our debt nearly doubled proportionally. So far under Obama, having inherited this massive global recession, our debt so far has increased proportionally by a little over half, and is now decreasing. That’s a pretty good record considering what our economy has been going through beginning in late 2008 when the great recession hit.

    Just dealing with the facts, folks, which Dana instead chooses to ignore. In spite of it all, our dollar has remained the world’s reserve currency, a tribute to the management provided since January 2009.

    Perry (23796f)

  62. 61. “for preserving the world’s reserve currency as the dollar, you have President Obama and the Dems to thank”

    Your ignorance is also provincial, ASEAN countries are already settling bills with renminbi valuations.

    China has >$3 Trillion in foreign exchange and is repo-ing more as we speak. The truth is the precise inverse of your import.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  63. I hereby cast my vote for Perry, ‘mother of all subtard’.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  64. Geithner has mused about this, no, we don’t need to be the world’s reserve currency.

    narciso (3fec35)

  65. Your ignorance is also provincial, ASEAN countries are already settling bills with renminbi valuations.

    To what extent is this being done, Gary?

    As Dana indicated, the fact is that the dollar remains the world’s reserve currency. Your statements have not effectively refuted your claim!

    Perry (23796f)

  66. correction: your ==> that

    Perry (23796f)

  67. Thanks, narciso, for refuting Gary and making my point: The dollar remains the world’s reserve currency.

    Perry (23796f)

  68. Oh, there you are, Perry.

    nk (c5b7ef)

  69. Perry – You are still a moron. You confuse debt with deficit.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  70. It seems you are the confused one, daleyrocks. What I said is completely accurate!

    Perry (23796f)

  71. Under Bush-43, our deficit went from decreasing to increasing

    Perry, the Republicans passed budgets under clinton, clinton had nothing to do with it but to sign it nationa debt grew 24 % under clinton or 3% per year

    Under Bush national debt grew 22% under Bush or 2.8% per year

    Under Obama national debt is growing 7% per year

    http://www.justfacts.com/nationaldebt.asp

    EPWJ (bdd0a6)

  72. So far under Obama, having inherited this massive global recession, our debt so far has increased proportionally by a little over half, and is now decreasing.

    You are well and truly a moron. Our debt has gone up by $6,000,000,000,000 under Obama, and has not decreased, nor will it decrease, under Obama.

    JD (b63a52)

  73. Just dealing with the facts, folks

    Lololololololololololol. If you are going to claim this, you should try to get the facts straight.

    JD (b63a52)

  74. It seems you are the confused one, daleyrocks. What I said is completely accurate!

    If by accurate, you mean dead ass wrong, then you are incredibly accurate.

    JD (b63a52)

  75. JD, do you understand the word “proportionally”?

    Under Bush-43, the debt went from $5.5T to $11.1T, almost doubled. Under Obama, the debt went from 11.1T to 16.6T, a little over half again more. And yes, under Obama the inherited Great Recession has been the major reason.

    The facts really do count!

    Perry (23796f)

  76. 66, 69, 72. Isn’t it amazing how some savants can, like Shannon’s chimp, seemingly generate well-formed sentences at will with a semantic nullity for content?

    My daughter was babbling at four months, uttering complete sentences at 12 months before we could decode them as such, she spoke so rapidly.

    Perry, viz. ‘the ages of man’, has regressed to 10 months, the words still sound like English but in truth its just babbling.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  77. Moreover, our deficit, or rate of growth of the debt, is now decreasing, thus moving in the right direction. I did not state this quite correctly in #61.

    Perry (23796f)

  78. Gary, your characterizations do not/can not change the facts. You need to look beyond your usual information sources.

    Perry (23796f)

  79. Yeah. For sure Obama finally has it moving in the right direction. Was it grounding the Thunderbirds or halting white house public tours that most contributed to it, Perry?

    elissa (688dbb)

  80. Under Bush-43, the debt went from $5.5T to $11.1T, almost doubled. Under Obama, the debt went from 11.1T to 16.6T, a little over half again more.

    I guess you think that comparing actual dollars over an 8 year span is comparable to a 4 year span? Obama increased the debt more in 4 years than Bush did in 8. No amount of spinning will change that.

    I did not state this quite correctly in #61.

    Or, you were dead ass wrong. The “best” Obama deficit, even given unrealistic assumptions, will be worse than the worst Bush deficit. Remember when that was unpatriotic?

    You are a clown.

    JD (b63a52)

  81. 79. Wrong again, cipher. Thru February expenditures were $208 Billion. Like Moonbeam’s California we will find receipts accelerated at the end of 2012. April will be a schocking disappointment.

    The squeester still leaves government spending growing faster than inflation for the CBO and OMB.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  82. You need to look beyond your usual information sources.

    Standard leftist nonsense.

    JD (b63a52)

  83. What’s amusing about Perry is how he can imagine he’s got a point.

    How many of us sold our souls to elect Bush, like the Democrats sold theirs to support Obama?

    Newsflash, Perry. We mutinied when the “compassionate conservative” came up with Medicare Part D, “No child left behind,” and backed the McCain-Kennedy amnesty. We couldn’t stop it all but we stopped the amnesty at least.

    So it’s funny you come here to imply we only started complaining about the spending when the black democrat got elected.

    Really? Is that your final answer?

    What’s actually funny is that we’re getting accused of inconsistency by the crowd that was against the imperial presidency and GITMO that’s, all of a sudden, cool with it. As a matter of fact, they want more.

    Now the Cindy Sheehan fans are proud of their President Kill List.

    Steve57 (be3310)

  84. It seeks attention and opportunities to defend Obama by offending reason itself. Its agenda is deflection, misinformation, and repetition.

    Facts and logical arguments are relevant only to the extent they provide points for restatement of it’s outworn nostrums. It’s a talking Tar Baby. Punch it and suffer the consequences.

    ropelight (75d434)

  85. I gotta admit I did not take seriously enough, Chakra, “no controlling authority”.

    Got out of work that first Tuesday of Nov. after polls closed owing to a software release Wednesday AM.

    Got married day after Thanksgiving and was in Florence while the SCOTUS settled the contest.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  86. Tar Perry?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  87. 70.Oh, there you are, Perry.
    Comment by nk (c5b7ef) — 3/26/2013 @ 6:36 am

    Wrong Perry, nk. This one isn’t nearly as amusing or entertaining, IMO.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  88. Under Bush-43, our deficit went from decreasing to increasing, and our debt nearly doubled proportionally. So far under Obama, having inherited this massive global recession, our debt so far has increased proportionally by a little over half, and is now decreasing. That’s a pretty good record…

    I personally know a dyed-in-the-wool liberal who before 2008 happily chirped away about how horrible the deficit was when Bush was in office. Now? Not much of a peep. Unlike you, at least that liberal doesn’t have the gall to be so blatantly two-faced. Or he is more in keeping with a high number of conservatives, who never hypocritically defended Bush when it came to the red ink he tolerated during his presidency.

    But for a person who leans left, if not a flat-out leftist, your two-faced behavior is rather common. You’re the rule instead of the exception. That’s why I think various forms of corruption — both social and economic — tend to flourish or are more comfortably accommodated when liberals are running things, be they in charge of trashed-up urban American areas, Euro nations like France or Greece, or banana-republic societies like Argentina.

    Mark (5f0661)

  89. 82. Or, you were dead ass wrong. The “best” Obama deficit, even given unrealistic assumptions, will be worse than the worst Bush deficit. Remember when that was unpatriotic?

    You are a clown.

    Comment by JD (b63a52) — 3/26/2013 @ 7:06 am

    Just to be clear, I wasn’t conceding anything about Perry’s numbers.

    I was pointing out how remarkable it is to get criticized for inconsistency by the the same crowd that claims it’s the highest form of patriotism to criticize the gub’mint when a Republican is in office, which then goes Janet Napolitano on you and produces reports that claim government critics are potential terrorists when President Dream Boat McOur-party gets elected.

    Steve57 (be3310)

  90. Via Doug Ross:

    http://noisyroom.net/blog/2013/03/25/chief-justice-roberts-meet-obamacare/

    There are, to date, a couple of dozen new taxes in Obamaneycare. But the costs to GDP growth, like premium increases and loss of full-time positions will result in revenue contraction, regardless of EU catastrophe.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  91. “The monumental stupidity in what the EU and IMF have done to Cyprus becomes more and more glaring. To protect herself from charges that bailing out Cyprus would be like bailing out rich Russian oligarchs, German Chancellor Angela Merkel went along with the initial scheme to seize a portion of the Cypriots’ bank deposits. After this, all it will take is just a hint of a financial crisis to send Spaniards, Italians, the French and others scurrying to ATMs and banks to pull out their cash. Even in the absence of a disaster individuals and companies will be looking to park at least a portion of their money outside the banking system.

    The sobering truth is that there is no safe hiding place to stash your cash, gold or silver other than stuffing ’em under your mattress (and pray that the boxes or bags in which you store the cash can withstand the assaults of rats or mice)”–Steve Forbes

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveforbes/2013/03/25/can-a-cyprus-like-seizure-of-your-money-happen-here/

    elissa (688dbb)

  92. Top Hermaphrodite sees a new front open up:

    http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/03/army-captain-demands-dhs-give-up-their-weapons-of-war/

    This could get messy.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  93. Perry

    Bush also grew the economy, sure debt doubled but as a percentage of GDP which is the measurement

    Bush grew the economy 4 trillion in just six years

    in the six years the Democrats have controlled the house 2007/8 the senate 2007/8 and all three in 2009/2010 and the Senate and the Presidency to date the economy grew 1 trillion.

    6 years – 4 trillion in GDP growth – Republicans – debt grew 5 trillion

    6 – years 1 trillion in GDP growth – democrats – debt grew 6 trillion

    difference in the 6 years the republicanbs had to deal with 9/11 Katrina, Rita, and two full blown wars

    Dems ???? nothing

    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp

    EPWJ (bdd0a6)

  94. In 2001 had we implemented the bush plan fully (which was the gingrich/delay plan from 1996) there would not be any deficits and social security would be totally privitized medicare would be 25% supported by the private sector and we would be looking at very low unemployment

    EPWJ (bdd0a6)

  95. Lots of disturbing stuff there gary this am.
    What is Hilary Clinton’s #1 claim for popularity? She allowed a cheating husband to stay in power as president instead of making a fuss, so she wants payback that she thinks she is owed.

    Sounds like a plot for a Shakespearean play, of which I’ve only read a few.

    And DHS now has hundreds of bomb-resistant vehicles that we once couldn’t get into iraq fast enough?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  96. I guess you think that comparing actual dollars over an 8 year span is comparable to a 4 year span? Obama increased the debt more in 4 years than Bush did in 8. No amount of spinning will change that.

    Increasing debt must be viewed referenced to the inherited debt, which is why using proportional increases makes better sense, unless one is an ideologue.

    Consider the following:

    a) Bush-43: Borrowing $4.6T when the debt is already $5.5T

    b) Obama: Borrowing $6T when the debt is already $10.1T

    Which has the greater relative impact on the existing debt? Answer: Bush-43

    Moreover, during the Bush-43 second term, GDP increased 0.49, or 4.0%. During the Obama first term, GDP increased 0.78, or 6.0%. Which is better? Answer: Under Obama, GDP grew a half again more than under Bush-43 second term. The date is here.

    When the facts are put in context and reviewed, contrary to partisan rhetoric, accurate conclusions arise.

    Perry (23796f)

  97. correction: date ==> data

    Perry (23796f)

  98. Perry – Which of your information sources is pushing the stupid proportionality meme you are regurgitating here today?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  99. Perry, what would anti-Americans like you who are hell bent on destroying the country use for cover if Bush had never been elected?

    Steve57 (be3310)

  100. 4 years vs 8 is a ginormous difference, moron.

    JD (b63a52)

  101. Perry’s new SQUIRREL GDP argument is douchey on it’s face.

    JD (b63a52)

  102. 97. EPJW

    I reject your argument for two reasons:

    1) You neglect to mention the great recession which Obama inherited;

    2) Since the President has the final say via the veto, it is inappropriate to argue on the basis of whichever party controls the Congress. The proverbial buck stops with the POTUS!

    On GDP growth, I don’t know where your numbers came from, but here are mine, comparing the Bush-43 second term to the Obama first term:

    Bush-43: 12.88 – 12.04 = 0.84 trillion$

    Obama: 13.66 – 12.88 = 0.78 trillion$

    So in spite of the Great Recession, Obama came close to increasing the GDP as well as Bush-43 had done.

    That’s the factual bottom line.

    Perry (23796f)

  103. 106. You neglect to mention a number of factoids yourself, Tar Monotreme.

    2000 had one positive quarter, Booosh inherited an enconomy in decline. Booosh inherited a sitting duck WTC. More decline.

    In 2006 GOP lost both Houses of Congress.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  104. ==You neglect to mention the great recession which Obama inherited;==

    America was already in recession and Obama desperately wanted the damn job. The “inherited” sh*t is old and disingenuous. A competent president with reasoned economic policies–one who was not shamelessly paying off his campaign contributors with precious taxpayer money and loans– would have concentrated on jobs (not prog wet dreams) and would have had us much further along on the road to recovery with less deficit and debt.

    elissa (688dbb)

  105. Perry, sounds like you forgot to drink your Ensure.

    Elephant Stone (3167fc)

  106. Perry

    THe numbers are the numbers -you are correct that changing the numbers actually changes the argument

    except that they are now facts backed up with links whereas you are simply using numbers that are not accurate.

    Also using the comparison of the bush second term – you simply cant – the democrats ran the agenda in late 2006 to the present today when they took both houses of congress.

    EPWJ (bdd0a6)

  107. Perry

    Also the growth in debt is greatly accelerated under Obama/Reid/Pelosi reign since 9/30/2006.
    Debt doubled 8.5 trillion to 16 in just 6 years

    09/30/2012 16,066,241,407,385.89
    09/30/2011 14,790,340,328,557.15
    09/30/2010 13,561,623,030,891.79
    09/30/2009 11,909,829,003,511.75
    09/30/2008 10,024,724,896,912.49
    09/30/2007 9,007,653,372,262.48

    Under Bush/Gengrich/Hastert/Lott debt grew from 4.5 trillion to 8 trilion in 12 years something that people were already upset with:

    09/30/2006 8,506,973,899,215.23
    09/30/2005 7,932,709,661,723.50
    09/30/2004 7,379,052,696,330.32
    09/30/2003 6,783,231,062,743.62
    09/30/2002 6,228,235,965,597.16
    09/30/2001 5,807,463,412,200.06
    09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86
    09/30/1999 5,656,270,901,615.43
    09/30/1998 5,526,193,008,897.62
    09/30/1997 5,413,146,011,397.34
    09/30/1996 5,224,810,939,135.73
    09/29/1995 4,973,982,900,709.39

    http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo4.htm

    Perry I think you are being fed some false numbers so looking at this information an the fact that republicans excoriated Bush and his supporters for their performance as well as Gingrich – how does Obama stac up – remember he spoke out against Republican spending but as we see they spent way way less, but still too much

    EPWJ (bdd0a6)

  108. The proverbial buck stops with the POTUS!

    O M F G

    JD (84b2fe)

  109. Question. Does Perry actually believe his entries are true and make sense? Or is he just a playa?

    elissa (688dbb)

  110. Perry

    The site youlinked shows tht since Obama and his party had control there was 500 billion in growth in “real” GDP in 6 years or 83 billion a year

    In the twelve years since the republicans ended 70 years of democratic rule in the house and the agenda in our government according to your “real” GDP website there was over 4 trillion in GDP growth or an average 310 billion a year or nearly 4 times the average than the 6 years of democrat agenda

    1995-2006 4.15 trillion/12 years – 315 billion/yr
    2007-2012 0.50 trillion/6 years – 83 billion/yr

    this according to your website

    EPWJ (bdd0a6)

  111. Perry, the recession was not “Great” until Obama killed of the natural economic tendency to recover from recession. In fact, in early 2009, that was Obama’s plan – spend a trillion dollars in pork and take credit for the natural recovery as though he had “caused” it.

    Obama’s plan failed when he adopted policies that discouraged recovery, discouraged the “creative destruction” of recession, and discouraged investment and job growth. I already linked to an article that quotes from Federal Reserve reports that show business reluctant to hire with Obamacare looming over their heads.

    But you ignore this because you are an ignorant ideologue with nothing to do but troll.

    SPQR (b12eb9)

  112. elissa

    I think alot of people will become republicans when

    A: social security get cut because not enough was saved, nor enough GDP growth to fund them was safeguarded by Obama

    B: when everyone has to pay taxes

    EPWJ (bdd0a6)

  113. Liberal logic from Perry:

    Under Bush-43, our deficit went from decreasing to increasing, and our debt nearly doubled proportionally. So far under Obama, having inherited this massive global recession, our debt so far has increased proportionally by a little over half, and is now decreasing. That’s a pretty good record considering what our economy has been going through beginning in late 2008 when the great recession hit.

    The last budget/appropriations series signed into law by President Bush had a total federal deficit of $412 billion. President Bush should have been responsible for the FY2009 deficit numbers as well, but the Democrats who controlled the Congress guessed that the American people would be stupid enough to elect Barack Hussein Obama, so they declined to pass nine of the twelve annual appropriations bills, and instead funded the government via continuing resolutions at the FY2008 levels. Then, after President Obama took over [shudder!] the Democrats finally pushed through the Omnibus Appropriations Act of 2009, along with the porkulus plan, and the deficit shot up to $1.4 trillion.

    Since then, the deficits have come down, slightly, but are still more than twice what the highest ever deficit under President Bush was. For FY2013, there are projections that the deficit might come in under a trillion dollars, but even if it does, it’ll be twice the FY2008 deficit.

    The national debt? It is true that the national debt hasn’t quite doubled under President Obama, the way it didn’t quite do (the debt increased by 85.53%) under President Bush . . . but Mr Obama hasn’t been president for eight years yet. In 4 years, 2 months and six days, the national debt has increase by “only” 57.62%. Trouble is, even under the rosiest projections by our stumblebum President, the national debt will more than double before his term is up.

    At current rates, the national debt will have seen the same percentage increase under President Obama in April of 2015 as occurred under all eight years under President Bush; at current rates of increase, the national debt ill have increased by 110.63% under eight miserable years of President Obama.

    But, let me put it in terms you might more easily understand: you are arguing that the girl who ate her way up to 450 lb is doing great because her weight is increasing more slowly now. She’s not losing weight, and she’s still morbidly obese, but she’s gaining more slowly now!

    The Dana who can actually count (3e4784)

  114. Perry – Do you believe we need to keep putting more lipstick on that raggedy old green energy pig even as Europe is seeing the light so that we can Win The Future?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  115. A better analogy Dana, might be that the 120 pound girl started eating under George W., and gained weight to 250 pounds. But will hit 500 pounds under Obama.

    And Perry thinks the weight gain is “relatively” the same…

    SPQR (b12eb9)

  116. On June 12, 2008, Perry wrote:

    And the GOP record, Christian, for fiscal solvency is?

    It is: A national debt up from about $5 trillion to about $9 trillion in Bush’s two terms. That’s your record and it is pathetic!

    You see, Perry was very concerned with the rise in the national debt . . . as long as it could be attributed to a Republican President. Now that a Democrat is in the White House, not so much.

    The financier Dana (3e4784)

  117. financier Dana, yep. The GOP is half as bad, and that’s twice as bad to Perry!

    SPQR (768505)

  118. I bet Perry has to use Velcro shoes, because he is too dumb to learn to tie his shoe.s.

    JD (b63a52)

  119. 120. If its the case the Merkel’s target of deposit theft has flown the coop what then? Does she abort or slaughter the bystanders?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)


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