Patterico's Pontifications

3/12/2013

Lawmaker Responds to Child Getting Suspended for Making His Pop Tart Into the Shape of a Gun

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:44 am



So there was a kid suspended for chewing his Pop Tart into the shape of a gun.

At Park Elementary school, Josh was enjoying his breakfast pastry when he decided to try and shape it into a mountain.

Josh said, “It was already a rectangle and I just kept on biting it and biting it and tore off the top and it kinda looked like a gun but it wasn’t.”

Josh takes full responsib[ilit]y for trying to shape his breakfast pastry, but admits it was in innocent fun. He told FOX45, “All I was trying to do was turn it into a mountain but, it didn’t look like a mountain really and it turned out to be a gun kinda.”

Now a lawmaker is introducing the Reasonable School Discipline Act of 2013 to prevent similar suspensions. How are you going to legislate something like this?

Sen. J. B. Jennings, a Republican representing Baltimore and Hartford counties, introduced this legislation on Thursday. The bill would, absent a direct act of violence on school grounds, prohibit students from being suspended for “mak[ing] a hand shape or gesture resembling a gun” — the bill would also stop principals from expelling students who bring to school “any other object that resembles a gun but serves another purpose.”

My first impulse is to say you can’t legislate common sense. But I’ll have to think about this. The fact is, school officials have absolutely no incentive (other than media exposure) to apply “zero tolerance” policies in anything but an unthinking and absurd fashion.

Somehow, counter-incentives have to be created. Something has to happen to cause principals to say: “I’d like to suspend this child for a clearly innocuous activity, but unfortunately the law requires me to apply a measure of common sense. So we’ll just have to let this one go.” I’m not sure if this law is the best way, but maybe it is. Your thoughts?

67 Responses to “Lawmaker Responds to Child Getting Suspended for Making His Pop Tart Into the Shape of a Gun”

  1. why isn’t the idiot child-abusing teacher named

    she should not be allowed around children anymore

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  2. It is pretty sad when we are at a point where 2nd graders can get expelled for eating a pop art tart in the shape of an L

    JD (b63a52)

  3. ‘Game over, man, we’re toast’

    narciso (3fec35)

  4. The fact is, school officials have absolutely no incentive (other than media exposure) to apply “zero tolerance” policies in anything but an unthinking and absurd fashion.

    was there an explicit rule that prohibited biting pastries into the shape of a gun?

    Or was it a nonsensical application of a common sense rule?

    With the former, students would at least know what is against the rules. In the latter, they could be in violation of rules merely due to a construction which they had never heard of.

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  5. the law should also have punishments for any school official who breaks the law … several weeks without pay would seem reasonable …

    JeffC (488234)

  6. There is some extremely bizarre behavior coming out of the education system. We’ve allowed our children to be educated by insane, incompetent people. And our society is going to be in big trouble as a result.

    SPQR (768505)

  7. It is extremely sad when this is a topic of conversation anywhere other than between the parents and teachers involved. Law makers, don’t you have a real job to do.

    Pete Symes (6b934d)

  8. Pete Symes, lawmakers shouldn’t be doing this. But they shouldn’t have to. And its the bizarre school administrators who are making this kind of thing necessary.

    SPQR (768505)

  9. Too bad his teacher hadn’t managed to teach him what Idaho looks like, but likely the teacher doesn’t know what Idaho looks like.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  10. Way ahead of the USPS or the DMV, the worst infestation of Bureaurats has always been in the public school system. Until school officials are held personally accountable, that will not change.

    Bar Sinister (b48c12)

  11. Steyn his line about ‘high capacity lunchboxes’ but even that doesn’t capture the absurdity.

    narciso (3fec35)

  12. This kind of legislation is a ghastly approach but it looks better than what some school administrators and teachers are doing. I’m with the other commenters: the only thing worse than this legislation is that it does seem necessary.

    MT Geoff (a67ef4)

  13. The zero tolerance standard is actually a logical response to school administrators’ fear of being blamed – and losing their jobs – for ‘not doing enough’ to prevent violence in their school.

    Should something happen, they don’t want the media/critics/ambulance chasing lawyers to be able to point to ANYTHING and say that shows the administrator was too lax or that they allowed an environment that was ripe for violence. It is better, they think, to go overboard than to leave any room for somebody to come back at them personally later. Take away discretion and you can’t get accused of abusing your discretion.

    If we want to eliminate stupidity such as the kid getting suspended, society has to reserve its after the fact criticism for those who truly screwed up. But since that won’t happen, we shouldn’t expect administrators to change.

    steve (e7e6c7)

  14. My solution is that if you expel a student who has not been violent, they get a voucher for private school. Private schools can then admit or expel the student as they see fit.

    Then again, I’d give every student who is not in public school, for any reason, such a voucher.

    Dustin (73fead)

  15. Clearly, pop tarts are a threat to civil society.

    JD (b63a52)

  16. Zero tolerance policies are an attempt by school officials to protect themselves from having to make, and defend, judgement calls.

    gahrie (acbb2d)

  17. Zero tolerance policies are never defended that way however; instead they are defended as:

    “We are showing we are serious!” To which the correct answer is always: No, you are showing you are clowns.

    SPQR (768505)

  18. There is some extremely bizarre behavior coming out of the education system.

    And most of it is in an attempt to deny or minimize unpleasant demographic realities.

    gahrie (acbb2d)

  19. Maps of the United States have to be banned from classrooms:
    If you rotate the map a 1/4-turn clock-wise, the shape of the State of Idaho resembles a gun….

    Evil Bad Idaho!

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  20. The “demographic realities” are that virtually all of the administration, and a majority of the staff, are just Bloody Incompetent.

    This country did far better with the mythical one-room schoolhouse with a teacher selected by a group of parents and community leaders (usually included the local banker who fronted the salary, and the general-store proprietor who carried the tab for foodstuffs/etc., and the “preacher” who ascertained the moral qualifications of the applicant).
    Now, we just have a collection of union-hacks on the school-board, selecting another union-hack to be the Superintendent, who hires the union-hacks who run the schools and turns the next generation into certificated illiterates.
    CUNY says that 80% of incoming Frosh from NYC high-schools require Remedial Ed in math and English; and CA released a report 3/11 that showed that 58% of incoming frosh at the CSU system were in the same boat – and CSU get the top of the HS grads after UC peels off the top 2%.
    Sarah Hoyt has an informative post linked to by Insty this morning (@ 0941) detailing her experiences with her kids and the local schools, and how they literally teach kids to be illiterate.
    Sending you kids to a public school is Parental Malpractice!

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  21. The “demographic realities” are that virtually all of the administration, and a majority of the staff, are just Bloody Incompetent.

    No.

    Granted there are a lot of incompetent teachers and administrators.

    However the demographic realities are, largely for social and cultural reasons, Brown and Black students perform much more poorly than White and Asian students in school. It is easier to dumb down the Whites and Asians than educate the intentional non-learners.

    gahrie (acbb2d)

  22. Dennis Prager: There are only two races in the world – Good & Evil!

    In education, we have cast our lot with Evil.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  23. If a person who uses food stamps to buy Pop Tarts were to shape his Pop Tart into a ‘gun,’ would that person get their food stamps suspended by the government ?

    It is definitely food for thought.

    Elephant Stone (5ca442)

  24. It should be noted that the Educational “Professionals” involved in most of these incidents (principals/supervisors/teachers) are female. And the Majority of those punished are boys.

    THIS is the biggest problem we face in this country for the future; the feminization and the diminution of masculine expression boys. Also the drugging of boys because female teacher can’t/won’t cope or understand how to deal with boys.

    That and a lack of masculine role models at home and teachers in school.

    Yet girls are still given special classes/counseling and assistance.

    Boys? Not so much. Yet it’s boys with the problems and boys who are most at risk for antisocial behavior both as youths and later in life. Yet we continue the fairy tale that girls are at a disadvantage and that boys can manage on their own.

    clearly someone doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

    Jcw46 (f33482)

  25. My 3 year old loves to pretend that he’s cutting his brothers in half with a chainsaw. He uses his hand as the chainsaw and makes a pretty good chainsaw-sounding noise. It’s something he learned on one of the video games he plays. I wonder what’s going to happen when he starts kindergarten? The principal will probably call in a SWAT team. But whatever.

    Anne (e37667)

  26. If you are a parent, and your school administrator does something insane like this, it is key to react correctly.

    First, do not accept their insane behavior as normal or reasonable, react to them as if they were lunatics.

    Second, follow up by having your attorney inform them of your willingness to sue to compel them to act sane. Don’t compromise in some vain attempt to make things go away. They won’t go away, they’ll label your kid as the problem and continue to act insane.

    SPQR (768505)

  27. The Lunatics ARE running the Asylum!

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  28. We used to be able to fire people for acting stupidly, but so many HR restrictions have been put in place to prevent “wrongful terminations” that idiots can fester in the woodwork for decades. We need a concentrated effort across the board to re-balance the playing field. With respect to school teachers and administrators, the best beginning would be 100% vouchers to bring the effects of competition into play.

    Robert (97403b)

  29. Cross pollination, perhaps…

    In jumping to the link (CNS) in the adjoining post regarding the propensity of “chunkiness” amongst certain groups of folk, I came across a piece by Walter Williams that answers a lot of the questions commenters here have about the state of public education these days.

    [If I were not link-challenged I would put one in here someplace. On the other hand, I can still diagram a sentence and do math without a calculator. Its a wash in my book.]

    gramps (bf1b3d)

  30. Paradoxically, the beauty of “zero tolerance” in our government schools is that it can be applied very selectively. The administration simply asserts that it never observes the unwanted behavior in a favored group, and then comes down like Wile Coyote’s anvil on someone’s child who is in disfavor.

    If you have the courage and interest, regularly visit any school that has low parental and community involvement shortly after it has closed for the day. Your first clue that you are in the right place will be the gathering of the afternoon police watch five minutes before the bell. When the number of police cars equals the number of school buses that is a confirmation that you are in the right place. Next the teachers and staff will flee shortly after the buses have left, leaving coaches and custodians to manage the facility. At that point the real owners will show up. You’ll likely find the administration has made a de facto deal with these characters that they can have the school once the “business of educating” is completed if only they will keep the lid on during the school day. You’ll also find that the school relies on the police to remove the truly violent thugs, but this comes at some cost. The police only act after a felony has been committed, meaning that the level of violence has elevated to the point that the victims are forced to make a police report. Meanwhile, the administration can manage its discipline quotas by taking the blinders off at appropriate moments, like when little Theodore points his finger at a friend and says “bang”.

    We were much better off when our schools were small affairs with little overhead and teachers were hired based real academic backgrounds, versus teachers colleges. And our most effective teachers continue to be parents who take the time to teach their kids to read, write and do arithmetic. It takes six or seven years of government schools to undo the good work that parents do in the first four or five years of a child’s life.

    bobathome (c0c2b5)

  31. It is parental malpractice to send your kids to government school (Instaoundit.com)

    BfC (a1cf00)

  32. Instapundit (typo)

    BfC (a1cf00)

  33. Will we have to issue licenses to people who chew their pastried into weapons? Will we have to limit the number of pop tarts any one person can buy or own? ARe there some pop tarts that are more dangerous than others? Inquiring minds want to know.

    rochf (f3fbb0)

  34. This if off topic, but Drudge has a link to Marois and Nash of Bloomberg who just reported on the Calif. DOJ seizure of weapons from felons and mental health patients:

    [California Seizes Guns …]

    So far, maybe so good. But these reporters published the name, age and home town of a woman who was involuntarily committed to a mental health facility in December, and who was foolish enough to let these the CDOJ agents in, probably with the reporters as observers, whereupon they seized her and her husband’s weapons. This poor woman will likely find that with this publication of her identity, she will not be able to find employment or even volunteer activities in future. And, of course, the felon that they tried to seize a weapon from refused to open the door to let them in, and so these agents only batted 500 on their evening of making us safe.

    bobathome (c0c2b5)

  35. Well, I think ideally the law would permit the parents on an absurd suspended students 15 minutes alone with the admin-weeie responsible and a nine-iron. But this is at least a start.

    C. S. P. Schofield (adb9dd)

  36. Waste of a good golf-club.
    Tire-iron is more fitting.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  37. OF course, if you make guns, pictures of guns and things that might look like guns subjects of punishment in early grades, you will have a generation of kids who are afraid of guns.

    Maybe that’s the point.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  38. You need strikeout font on the “Maybe” Kevin.

    SPQR (768505)

  39. Have a randomly selected parental appeal board for any suspension, and if the suspension is overturned, the offending faculty member(s) have to serve the suspension, without pay.

    Problem solved.

    shipwreckedcrew (4ae072)

  40. Is anyone surprised at this news??
    I’m afraid dumb stuff like this is just the beginning.

    Bob (5e0541)

  41. Mayor Bloomberg is going to institute a one day waiting period before people can buy assault pop tarts in New York City.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  42. Too bad this blog entry wasn’t combined with the one about funding for studies on why lesbians are so fat, combined with the post about the law that bans large-sized drinks in New York City. And then combining all that with something about this…

    bostonglobe.com, March 9, 2013: America’s top military officer in charge of monitoring hostile actions by North Korea, escalating tensions between China and Japan, and a spike in computer attacks traced to China provides an unexpected answer when asked what is the biggest long-term security threat in the Pacific region: climate change.

    ^ What is the common thread that ties all these disparate stories together? The idiocy of liberal sentiment, of liberalism gone berserk.

    God (or Allah—to make variations of the military’s Nidal Hasan happy) help us.

    Mark (fa08b6)

  43. I’m going to disagree with what seems to be the majority view of this thread. The boy was not punished pointlessly. He got a valuable lesson, one his parents should have already taught him: Keep your weapons concealed.

    nk (53646e)

  44. This won’t work. Teachers’ intention with these ridiculous rules is to instill fear and confusion in children in much the same way as governments write vague and confusing laws that only they can interpret. Only the nanny state can say what is good and what is bad. Teachers are just the first authority figures to brainwash kids into thinking they have no right to control over their own lives.

    Ironhorzmn (212869)

  45. If the teachers see guns in cloud formations, will they punish the entire class? They can’t blame God, at least not out loud.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  46. These people do not realize that a “Y” chromosome turned sideways sort of looks like a gun.

    As said, one thing sadder than the law is the need to write the law.

    On a terribly serious note, Mark Steyn asked what would happen if the troops hitting Omaha beach had grown up in an environment where they were protected from the horrors of Pop-Tart handguns.

    There was an episode of Dr. Who where one planet had learned to cope by welcoming whichever alien race invaded, giving them a parade, etc.

    And did the judge rule the soda ban null because it was too arbitrary by giving exceptions?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  47. Why do we call this “zero tolerance” when it is clearly “zero reasoning?”

    These MORONS need to be dealt with harshly for this kind of nonsense. This is yet another reason why my children have NEVER spent a day in the care of state-sponsored indoctrination centers.

    WarEagle82 (2b7355)

  48. 37. OF course, if you make guns, pictures of guns and things that might look like guns subjects of punishment in early grades, you will have a generation of kids who are afraid of guns.

    Maybe that’s the point.

    Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 3/12/2013 @ 3:26 pm

    38. You need strikeout font on the “Maybe” Kevin.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 3/12/2013 @ 3:51 pm

    Eric Holder on brainwashing people about guns. “Particularly our young people.”

    He gets to the part about schools at every level doing their bit to brainwash the kids to “think about guns in a vastly different way” at about the 3:10 mark.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  49. How about this simple rule?

    No student shall be punished for misconduct unless it is clearly, explicitly, and precisely prohibited.

    I doubt there was an explicit, clear, and precise rule against biting pastries into the shape of a gun.

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  50. Common sense has fled the public arena. Just like the firemen who got tired of being bullied and put dog food in the bully’s spaghetti sauce. What did Los Angeles pay that guy ? Five million ?

    Legislation may be the only way but it sure seems dumb.

    Mike K (dc6ffe)

  51. How about this simple rule?

    Any “educator” who cannot distinguish between a breakfast pastry and a lethal weapon shall be immediately dismissed for cause.

    WarEagle82 (2b7355)

  52. Eric Holder on brainwashing people about guns. “Particularly our young people.”

    Hey, Eric, go ask your wonderful, wise boss about the two-faced nature of this…

    newsbusters.org, October 2012:

    The president, whose re-election campaign has been heavy on soak-the-rich class warfare rhetoric, apparently welcomes the endorsement of this member of the imperial 1 percent. Jay-Z has earnings of more than $460 million.

    Jay-Z may be the kind of man who needs that advice. While he appeared clean-cut and professional in his Obama ad, his entertainment persona is an entirely different matter.

    Before he lived the life of celebrity Jay-Z was a drug dealer, and he frequently raps about his past life. His lyrics are laced with profanity, and frequently encourage listeners to embrace violence.

    “Dirt Off Your Shoulder,” a song president Obama referenced on the campaign trail, boasts about “a middle finger to the law,” while “99 Problems” degrades women with lyrics like “I’ve got 99 problems but a bitch ain’t one.” That particular song also has an entire verse about being racially profiled by the “mother-f-ing law” for “doing 55 in a 54.”

    In May, Jay-Z and Kanye West released a song that expressed their love of gratuitous violence. “No Church in the Wild” opened with a protestor flinging a Molotov cocktail at police. The violence only escalated from there and the video is a patchwork of firebombs, fights, and destruction.

    The lyrics of the song celebrate anarchy, as this excerpt makes clear:

    We formed a new religion
    No sins as long as there’s permission
    And deception is the only felony
    So never f— nobody without telling me
    Sunglasses and Advil, last night was mad real.

    I’ll tell you what, Eric, et al. You worry about the culture, let us worry about the guns.

    Mark (fa08b6)

  53. Any “educator” who cannot distinguish between a breakfast pastry and a lethal weapon shall be immediately dismissed for cause.

    Considering that teacher’s unions go to the wall for teachers who get caught diddling little kids, I think you’re dreaming.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  54. I think the basic idea is okay, but this law sounds too broad. Consider this case. Recently conservatives, led by Glenn Reynolds, freaked out because a kid was suspended for having a toy gun.

    Except I did a little digging, here, and found out there was more than that. The kid allegedly had a very realistic looking gun, whose status as a toy was only obvious by the red plastic in the barrel. He allegedly had the toy shoved, barrel first, into the front of his pants under his shirt. He was on the bus and lifted up his shirt, showing this fake gun and said something to the effect that he was not a person to be messed with because he had a gun.

    This was in virginia, and there is a name for that: brandishing. And it is a crime in Virginia. It involves displaying a gun or an object that reasonably looks like a real gun, in a way meant to menace or intimidate others. It is treating this conduct as a form of threat.

    Threatening other students with something that reasonably looked like a gun, but wasn’t a gun? That kid was arrested for allegedly doing that, and a suspension seems pretty well justified as well.

    And consider other possibilities. What if we have this scenario? A known gang member says, “I am going to track you down and kill you,” and then makes a “hand gun” and pretends to shoot. Would that student be protected from suspension under this law? Because i think under that situation, combined with the threat, the hand gesture is something that should be criminal, not just a suspension-worthy offense. It is indeed criminal in Virginia.

    And, btw, how would this law be enforced? Lawsuits? That seems questionable.

    I suspect that a law might be a bad idea, but at the very least it has to be written very carefully to work.

    Aaron "Worthing" Walker (23789b)

  55. Any “educator” who cannot distinguish between a breakfast pastry and a lethal weapon shall be immediately dismissed for cause.

    Considering that teacher’s unions go to the wall for teachers who get caught diddling little kids, I think you’re dreaming.

    Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 3/12/2013 @ 8:30 pm

    Maybe the kid should have clarified it wasn’t a gun but a sex toy. Then he would have been “canonized” if you’ll forgive the ironic pun…

    WarEagle82 (2b7355)

  56. Aaron, if the hypothetical behavior already IS criminal, then this proposed law wouldn’t necessarily make such criminal behavior legal. Since threatening bodily harm is illegal, the proposed law seems to indicate the perp wouldn’t be able to be suspended but he could certainly be arrested if a criminal complaint were to be filed. Or am I missing something here?

    WarEagle82 (2b7355)

  57. Any “educator” who cannot distinguish between a breakfast pastry and a lethal weapon shall be immediately dismissed for cause.
    Comment by WarEagle82 (2b7355) — 3/12/2013 @ 6:58 pm

    Thread winner. Nk gets second place.

    Stashiu3 (1680c0)

  58. #47 Why do we call this “zero tolerance” when it is clearly “zero reasoning?”

    The disincentive would be to reduce any administrator’s pay to minimum wage that uses “zero tolerance” as his excuse to use “zero reasoning”. That is all he is worth.

    pressingTowardTheMark (97a9d8)

  59. But if a seven year old says by word or gesture: “I have a pop-tart in my pants, and I’m not afraid to use it…” you’d think this situation could be reasonably treated as lunch chatter and not brandishing.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  60. Can the Attnys out there tell me why the “Reasonable person” standard doesn’t apply in these cases?
    A reasonable person would not see a credible threat in a finger pointing or Pop Tart style gun, right?
    ….Right?!?

    PITCHFORKNTORCHES (12026e)

  61. I think the defense of zero tart tolerance by the American Association of School Administrators of school administrators points to the real issue. It’s not that the pop tart was viewed as a credible weapon or threat, veiled or otherwise to use a weapon against others.

    It’s that they now believe that talking about guns or pretend play with guns should punished in order for children to form the proper ideas of how unacceptable it is to own or use a weapon.

    “Parents have to be aware that talking about guns or using your fingers to point like a gun is no longer tolerable or prudent.” (per AASA)

    Gun are bad, mmmkay?

    SarahW (b0e533)

  62. Holder said they need to be brainwashed …

    JD (31065f)

  63. Comment by PITCHFORKNTORCHES (12026e) — 3/13/2013 @ 7:01 am

    The general standard for teachers and others in loco parentis is wanton and willful misconduct, i.e. “wadda f*** are you doing, are you nuts?” Although this does seem to approach that standard.

    nk (53646e)

  64. I’m betting environazis and educatoranarchists are the main reason domestic killdrones are polling so well.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  65. My first impulse is to say you can’t legislate common sense.

    The first thing that comes to mind is that well known quote from Shakespeare…

    The first thing we do, we kill all the liberals…

    … Or something like that, anyway.

    Kill all the liberals, the collective “wisdom quotient” of the species goes up by about 30 points.

    *sigh* Yeah, we can’t do that. Not even close.

    Maybe we just need more tigers out there.

    A few people get mauled by tigers, the ones with common sense will take appropriate cautions.

    The idiots, 90% of them liberal, will whine about how the government should do something, and take no steps to protect themselves from being tiger food. Some of them will ack that the tigers have “just as much right here as we do”. And a fair number will say, “Hey, a tiger! Heeeere, kitty kitty kitty!”

    Yep. That sounds about right. Some back-to-nature culling.

    IIIIIiiiiii LIKE it!

    Smock Puppet, 10th Dan Snark Master and Gender Bïgǒt (98ae1f)

  66. Holder said they need to be brainwashed

    Easy for Holder to say that, given that he was born without a brain to wash.

    Smock Puppet, 10th Dan Snark Master and Gender Bïgǒt (98ae1f)

  67. Hey
    You could put someones eye out with that poptart/gun if you shoved it into their eye… and then they might die. And just knowing that gave a crazy fool (who to for some reason we have conceded the narrative) the vapors

    steveg (831214)


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