Patterico's Pontifications

2/20/2013

A Robust Defense of the 2nd Amendment

Filed under: General — JD @ 9:36 pm

[Guest post by JD]

Every once in a while you stumble across a link to a new website, and you’re not sure what to expect. The Left’s War on the 2nd Amendment continues apace. New York banned normal capacity magazines, and Colorado followed suit with Biden’s urging. Washington state had a proposal that would have allowed the police into homes to inspect weapons, something the sponsors apparently didn’t bother to read. They want “common sense” restrictions on an enumerated capital-R Right — restrictions that they would never dream of imposing on other Rights, whether enumerated or resulting from penumbras.

I ran across this one today, and his voice is a melody to my ears. I am quoting it in its entirety, because every time I tried to edit it down, or pull quotes, it felt incomplete. And since I know many times people don’t click on the links, I wanted you to see its original, full, sheer awesomeness.

Or, How I Learned To Stop Caring.

By way of introduction, I’d like to explain some of my former positions.  Please do not reply and tell me why I’m wrong.  That’s not relevant to this post.  These WERE my positions, for right or wrong.

I used to believe women had a right to reproductive choice.  As a male, I will obviously never have an abortion.  I supported access because birth control is cheaper than abortions, abortions are cheaper than welfare, welfare is cheaper than jail.  And I don’t believe the government is capable of legislating for every circumstance.  Most of the time, a woman and her doctor will make a decision that works for the situation, and until a baby is an independent organism, it’s a parasite.  This was also important to me because my wife was warned that a further pregnancy could kill her.  That’s been surgically remedied and is no longer a problem.

I used to believe gays were entitled to relate as they wished, including marriage.  What two people do together doesn’t affect me unless I’m one of them.

I used to believe it was wrong to treat people differently based on their skin color.  Even if a few people fit a stereotype, millions of others do not.

I used to believe there should be a strong division between church and state, that any support of a religious entity using property of the state constituted endorsement and was wrong.

I used to believe people had a right to protest, campaign, rant and create non-violent incidents to express themselves and their positions.  I also believed they had a right to publish as they chose.  I believed they were entitled to burn the Flag in protest, to make a statement.

I have obviously been at odds with conservatives over these positions.  There have been loud arguments, heated discussions and occasional insults.

~~~ 

I believe the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to keep and bear arms.  The Supreme Court agrees with me, which means that right is as valid as abortion, sexual privacy, protest and speech.

This should mean that  strict scrutiny applies, meaning the government needs to prove the fabric of society itself is at risk before limiting it.  Just as the Press has the right to broadcast troop movements it can see or acquire, regardless of casualties, I have the right to own weapons, regardless of how someone else may act.  “Someone might get hurt” is an invalid excuse for restriction.

In fact, it’s easy enough to prove that freedom of the press HAS caused harm and even death to people, whether it’s troop movements, or the address of a person of interest.

The rights of gays to relate as they wish brings the risk of AIDS (60% of all cases are from gay relations, not drugs or medical contamination.)

It’s provable that if we required proof of need before awarding a driver’s license, we’d have less car accidents.

So, the argument that “guns kill people” is null and irrelevant to the discussion.  Lots of things kill people.  That’s not relevant to our civil rights.

Now, over this position, I’ve had at least 5 death threats (though of course, no “liberal” actually has the balls to attempt so). 

I’ve twice been reported to Family Services on the grounds that I have guns in the house, which means I’m a danger to my kids (which complaints were laughed at, here in Indiana). 

I’ve been accused of racism…because I own guns.

I’ve been accused of fascism…because I own guns.

I’ve been called a coward…no “real man” needs a gun to protect himself.  This is a surprise to me as a veteran, who carried guns regularly for the purpose of protecting myself and others, but what do I know?

I’ve been called a “Fat, Fox News watching, McDonald’s munching, inbred, retarded, drooling redneck imbecile.”

 I’ve been told I have a small penis.

I’ve been told I’m insane to “imagine fighting the government” by people with no military experience who also hate the government, sometimes for the same reasons.

I’ve had a date tell me I “seem so normal, for a gun nut.”

I’ve been called a “rightwinger.”  Indeed.  A gay/female/black/abortion/separation of church and state/free speech supporting rightwinger.

 I’ve been told this right doesn’t exist, that if it exists I can’t “pretend” it’s more important than wage inequality for women, or gay marriage. 

When the Heller Decision was decided in favor of gun ownership, I was told “I hope you all shoot yourselves with guns, because I can’t marry the man I love!” by an alleged friend. 

There’s apparently a “Right to feel safe,” and my owning a gun destroys it, because I might shoot someone.  However, if I say a gun makes me feel safe, I’m paranoid and insane.

I’ve been told I support “baby killers.”

I’ve been threatened with having my Wikipedia page vandalized, by someone who claimed he was more of a man than me. 

I’ve been told I can’t be trusted.  How can anyone know I won’t go on a shooting spree, because I own an “assault rifle”?

So much for liberal tolerance.

I didn’t realize I was so evil and hateful an individual I deserved to be treated in such fashion.

But when I look at the arguments, I think they may be correct:

“At the time the Constitution was written, the weapons in question were muskets.”

You know what?  You’re right.  And marriage was between one man and one woman.  So what’s with gay marriage?  No longer will I offer any moral support, oppose any online statements attacking it, speak out for it.  They have the same right as anyone—to marry someone of the opposite gender.  And given that all gays support raping little boys (just like all gun owners support shooting school kids), I don’t think I can support them.  We should do things just the way they were done 220 years ago.  That’s the liberal way.

“The Heller Decision was by an activist court.  It doesn’t count.” 

Indeed.  Just like Roe v Wade was an activist decision.  It doesn’t count.

“We’re not trying to take your guns away, just have reasonable limits.  It’s a compromise.”

And some people want reasonable limits on abortion, like waiting periods, gestational time limits, ultrasound, etc.  It’s a reasonable response to an activist court decision, and reasonable restrictions on a right, for public benefit.  Don’t come whining about your right to murder babies, and I won’t come to you whining about my right to shoot school kids.

And no one is saying you can’t ride the bus.  You just have to sit where people think is reasonable.  No one is saying women can’t work.  They just have to get paid what is reasonable for the work they do, allowing for the fact they’re going to leave the workplace and raise a family.  It’s a compromise.

“Assault weapons are an extreme interpretation.” 

True.  And not allowing any religious emblems on government premises is an extreme interpretation.  As long as they’re privately paid for, what’s it to you?  No one is saying you can’t belong to the Christian church of your choice, just not to extreme groups, like atheists or Muslims.  It would be paranoid to think anyone was trying to infringe on your legitimate right to be free from state religion, just like I’d be paranoid to think they wanted to take my guns.  Quite a few states had official churches well into the 1800s. This is not an infringement on your freedom of religion.

“Given Sandy Hook, you have to make reasonable compromises.”

“We just want licensing and safe storage requirements so the wrong people don’t get guns.” 

“Publicizing the information lets people make informed choices about who they live near.” 

Accepted.  In exchange, gay men should make reasonable compromises over Penn State.  They will simply have to accept being registered and kept a safe distance from children.  This isn’t a violation of their rights.  It’s just common sense.  The public has a right to know.

This should apply to protests, too.  No reasonable person would object to being identified.  They should welcome it—it means they can’t be wrongly maligned.  All union members, blacks, gays and feminists should be signed in with ID before a march or gathering, just so we can track the real criminals to keep the rest safe.

“The country survived without assault weapons for 240 years.” 

True (well, no, it was 135 years, depending on your definition of “assault weapon”). And it survived without women in combat even longer.  The infantry’s trying to scare off women?  Serves them right.  Things were working just fine the way they were.

“This woman is being badly portrayed on the cover of a book.” 

No, no, that’s an accurate portrayal, just like all military contractors are sociopathic mercenaries who torture people, all gun owners are moral cowards with Walter Mitty complexes and all gun dealers exist to make money from gangbangers.  It’s silly to suggest one group is singled out for inaccurate portrayals when we know the other portrayals are spot on.

Yup.  I’m taking you at your word.  Want money? Don’t care.  Want a petition signed?  Call someone who who gives a shit.  Want a link spread?   Yawn.  Women or gays or blacks or Hispanics don’t feel they’re being treated nicely?  So what?

 ~~~

First they came for the blacks, and I spoke up because it was wrong, even though I’m not black.

Then they came for the gays, and I spoke up, even though I’m not gay.

Then they came for the Muslims, and I spoke up, because it was wrong, even though I’m an atheist.

When they came for illegal aliens, I spoke up, even though I’m a legal immigrant.

Then they came for the pornographers, rebels and dissenters and their speech and flag burning, and I spoke up, because rights are not only for the establishment.

Then they came for the gun owners, and you liberal shitbags threw me under the bus, even though I’d done nothing wrong.  So when they come to put you on the train, you can fucking choke and die.

 ~~~

Or you can commit seppuku with a chainsaw.  I really don’t care anymore.  This is the end of my support for any liberal cause, because liberals have become anything but.

– JD

519 Responses to “A Robust Defense of the 2nd Amendment”

  1. You are welcome

    JD (b63a52)

  2. That’ll leave a mark.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  3. THAT WAS TOTALLY AWESOME!!!

    reff (4dcda2)

  4. i love guns and I like them to be widely dispersed and also I like gay marriage and I like them also to be widely dispersed is that wrong am i a bad person

    No!

    America is still a country where you’re free to define yourself in terms other than your little country’s tawdry squalid juvenile politics! Our cowardly inept and corrupt politicians, they want the best of stuff for us they say. But right now, they gotta do what’s right for them.

    Because it’s their time.

    Up there.

    Down here it’s our time. It’s our time down here isn’t that right?

    And that’s all over the second we ride up troy’s bucket.

    Go away troy we don’t need your stupid bucket.

    happyfeet (acd614)

  5. Did I mention how much I liked this?

    JD (b63a52)

  6. it sounds like he’s giving up Mr. JD

    like his heart is growing cold and hard and shriveled up like dead baby-pimper piers morgan’s

    he needs an anthem something bad and I got one to share with him

    (it’s my old favorite one not a new one but it still does the trick in a pinch)

    happyfeet (acd614)

  7. i been playing it a lot lately

    that and the floridageorgialinecd

    happyfeet (acd614)

  8. Mr. Feets – I’m tired of the gay marriage people telling me they’re the boss of me. They are not. Nobody put them in charge. I say take your Obama union thug scaremonger intimidation tactics home with you and if you want to change the law let’s talk about it and have a vote.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  9. But that’s just me.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  10. hey no labels dude

    happyfeet (acd614)

  11. So what’s with gay marriage?

    Yea, it’s too limiting. Society must go well beyond that. It must accommodate people similar to the person described below. That’s why we truly — truly! — need to legalize not just same-sex marriages but multi-partner ones too. The reason? Because some dudes need both a wife and a husband, and, in turn, some chicks need both a husband and a wife.

    It’s a matter of freedom of choice, baby!

    cbsnews.com, February 19:

    Record executive Clive Davis says he’s bisexual.

    In his new memoir out Tuesday, the 80-year-old music mogul, who is twice divorced, reveals that he had sex with a man in the 1970s. Davis writes in “The Soundtrack of My Life” that he hadn’t been repressed or confused during his marriages and that sex with a man “provided welcome relief.”

    Davis is the chief creative officer of Sony Music Entertainment. He writes that he’s been in a “strong monogamous relationship” with a man for the last seven years.

    He also writes that he dated a man from 1990 to 2004, which he says was a “tough adjustment” for his son Mitchell. He says after “one trying year,” he and his son worked things out. Davis is the father of three children.

    In a new interview with ABC’s “Nightline,” Davis says bisexuality is “maligned and misunderstood,” adding, “I’m not lying. Bisexuality does exist. For over 50 years I never had sex with a male. It wasn’t repressed. I had very good sexual relationships with women.”

    Mark (25e2eb)

  12. Well, I’m glad you got that out of your system.
    I feel similarly many times, and just recently;
    which is why I went shooting this afternoon.
    Killed me a bunch of zombies and other assorted flotsam using a 100-yr old, bolt-action, Czarist assault weapon.
    Kicks like a mule, and still shoots better than the shooter.
    Molon Labe!

    askeptic (2bb434)

  13. A-Fucking-Men!

    Bets (b0777f)

  14. Michael Z. Williamson writes some awesome SF. His Freehold series is a marvelous defense of Libertarianism.

    Mark L (91163f)

  15. New York banned normal capacity magazines

    In the name of Gaia and global warming it is the right thing to do to ban normal capacity magazines. Too many magazine pages are devoted to fluff and ads that simply waste paper. With fewer pages to fill, the pages must be filled with vital information important to the community and public service ads. The old, fat Capitalist magazines that made profit and exploited the environment should be regulated, downsized and made to…

    Oh, wait. You meant another kind of magazine.

    ErisGuy (76f8a7)

  16. So what’s with gay marriage?

    Its too limiting. We in the science fiction community have been wearing our bi poly switch buttons with pride for years. And we demand society allow marriages that reflect our innate, fixed, untreatable, unchangeable sexual orientations.

    We believe in the decriminalization of all genders. If someone believes that someone of another gender: homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, polysexual, sadist, masochist, pedophile, bestial, furry, etc. has injured her or him, that is what civil court is for. Get the state off our backs and out of our bedrooms.

    ErisGuy (76f8a7)

  17. I want to memorize this.

    Pious Agnostic (6ff605)

  18. As many comments on his site mention, he “failed” in the premise that he was going to “piss off everybody”…
    if he’s not careful, people may start demanding he run as ben carson’s VP candidate

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  19. JD, you didn’t try hard enough, Williamson’s post would benefit greatly from a benevolent editing. Cut it down to say about 1/3 its current length and it gains the persuasive strength and focus brevity conveys. The rapier is always to be preferred to the bludgeon.

    ropelight (cb52b3)

  20. Mad Mike is a cool dude.

    SPQR (768505)

  21. Actually, Democrats have excellent self-defense advice, the key to its effectiveness is to accessorize.

    SPQR (768505)

  22. Full, sheer awesomeness is right. Thank you.

    I just bookmarked Williamson’s blog.

    ThOR (0d3941)

  23. Thanks, JD. I needed that.

    lyle (0fb201)

  24. Mad Mike scores again. When he comes nearby on a book-signing tour, he’s worth the trip. His remarks on Facebook are hilarious.

    htom (412a17)

  25. “…and Freedom of the Press should be limited to quill pens and parchment and broadsides printed on moveable type printing presses.”

    What I think of when I hear liberals arguing that the Founding Fathers couldn’t have foreseen modern weapons, so citizens technically are limited to muskets.

    in_awe (7c859a)

  26. He’s not giving up, happyfeet. It’s clarifying and liberating to see the stark, simple reality of what matters and what doesn’t.

    I don’t know what your polarizing issue is — mine is fiscal responsibility but maybe your issue is abortion, contraception or gay marriage. Whatever it is, once that issue is in the spotlight and it’s clear that the Democrats or the Republicans don’t care about it, then that Party and all the other issues melt into the background.

    November 2012 was a defining election to me. It’s time to choose sides.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  27. Washington state had a proposal that would have allowed the police into homes to inspect weapons, something the sponsors apparently didn’t bother to read.

    Actually, this is the third time that legislator tried this.

    Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three times is enemy action.

    Rich Rostrom (553877)

  28. By the way, liberals have been at this point for a long time. That’s why so many of their voters vote Democratic every time, because Democrats support their favorite issue. Other issues don’t matter when you have so many single issue voters.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  29. YouR 11:57 was very simple but very profound, DRJ. Excellent observation., and very true.

    elissa (90eaf8)

  30. but the unifying principle is that we should honor all Americans for their right to pursue their happiness in their own way.

    this little guy is giving up on that

    But also I agree with you about the spendings being paramount.

    But Team R has lost all credibility from a fiscal conservative perspective. Passing porky porky chris christie welfare bills will do that.

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  31. happyfeet,

    But Team R has lost all credibility from a fiscal conservative perspective. Passing porky porky chris christie welfare bills will do that.

    This is exactly my point. Very few liberals who care about gay marriage (for instance) would vote for a Republican or stay home, because even when the Democratic nominee claims he is doesn’t support gay marriage — as Obama did for years — they still believe that the Democratic Party is a better friend on gay marriage than the GOP.

    Even with establishment Republicans and RINOs, the GOP is a better friend to fiscal conservatives than the Democratic Party will ever be. Even if some Republicans sometimes disappoint us, you and I should be single issue GOP voters if we care about the economy, jobs, the deficit, and other fiscal issues. We should never stay home.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  32. 28. That’s why so many of their voters vote Democratic every time, because Democrats support their favorite issue. Other issues don’t matter when you have so many single issue voters.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/21/2013 @ 11:57 am

    DRJ, when your single issue is receiving your tax-payer funded patronage from Uncle Sugar, it’s an easy coalition to keep together.

    The unifying principle being “gimme, gimme, gimme!”

    Steve57 (60a887)

  33. Also, why is it giving up to decide what matters most to you and acting accordingly? Have liberals given up when they become single issue voters on the environment, immigration, or abortion? I think they have simply decided what matters to them and ignore the rest. I don’t agree with them but I don’t think that means they’ve given up. It means they’ve prioritized and they don’t care about the rest.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  34. Steve57,

    It took me a long time to get to this point. It was hard for me to understand single issue voters until after the last election, and then it was crystal clear — because I became one myself.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  35. It is interesting how the Dems manage to get so many single issue voters falling in line when some of the interests are in opposition. For example, the idea of allowing illegal immigrants to come en masse and stay and work, flooding the labor market, would seem to be in conflict with the labor unions and their desire to drive wages up.

    And the classic pro-dem for “women’s rights”, when the dems rounded the wagons to support the classic abuse of a woman, a powerful man using a defenseless youngster for sex. But then that segment of the “women’s rights” movement seems not so much interested in women being treated with dignity and respect, but women being willing to do what they want and not “get stuck” with the consequences (or the men involved getting stuck with the consequences of child support, either).

    Once upon a time, way back in the 1970′s and 80′s, the public battle cry was “don’t be a single issue voter”, as in, “don’t vote against somebody just because they are pro-abortion“; now it is “by all means be a single issue voter, if the candidate is pro-life, vote against them”!!

    It seems there is very little consistent reasoning, other than “we want the right to live by our whims and we don’t want anyone getting in the way”.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  36. One other thing: I’ve always thought of the Democratic Party as a coalition of voters with very different priorities, and I believed that they would have problems when those priorities conflicted. But I was wrong. Democratic voters are committed to their particular issues but they are also committed to the idea that the Democratic Party is the only party that cares about those issues. Even when Democrats like Obama have to “disappoint” a constituency, it still benefits from the overall perception that they care more than Republicans.

    Our job isn’t to show we care, too, because we will never care enough to overcome that bias. But we can instill in our voters the belief that the GOP cares more than the Democrats about responsible fiscal decisions, which means we care more about jobs and economic opportunities.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  37. I became a single issue voter in 2000 (more or less). I vote against the person who does the most sociopathic lying to my face (even if via television). So far it has not put me in any conflict.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  38. And I think caring about jobs will appeal to Hispanics.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  39. Hispanics like entitlements but, in part, that’s because they know they will have a hard time getting jobs (usually because of their education levels) and the first laid off.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  40. So, the interesting thing is that so many will think the dems care more about jobs, when they are doing so many things that stand in the way of job growth, including over-regulation which mainly benefit bureaucrats and control freaks, along with giving in to environmental extremists and open-border sentiments.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  41. This seems like the antithesis of giving up to me, Happyfeet. He found his bridge too far, and is taking a stand.

    JD (b63a52)

  42. A problem is the degree that people are ruled by their feelings and impulse, and not by their thinking. Whether one believes in creation or evolution, all understand that people survive as well as they do because of their ability to think and problem solve. If they no longer think, they give up their one advantage.

    Even an animal that is smart enough to avoid a trap instead of unthinkingly going for the bait demonstrates the superiority of thinking over desire and impulse.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  43. It is interesting how the Dems manage to get so many single issue voters falling in line when some of the interests are in opposition.

    Doc, you’re touching on what I was referring to in my earlier comment.

    When you look at the leaders of the special interest groups, their main interest is getting special carve outs and tax money. It’s financial.

    For example, the idea of allowing illegal immigrants to come en masse and stay and work, flooding the labor market, would seem to be in conflict with the labor unions and their desire to drive wages up.

    Frankly the only wages the union leadership are interested in are their own six figure salaries, not those of the rank and file. But I don’t think they see a conflict in this case.

    They’ll just join the rest of the Dems in driving up the minimum wage. Nothing protects high union wages like pricing unskilled labor out of the market. And these people they want to legalize are overwhelmingly unskilled. So why not legalize them? They won’t be able to get jobs. And the jobless are dependent upon government. Or in other words the Democratic party.

    They’ll get welfare, so the illegal immigration advocates will be happy. The unions will be happy because with millions of new Democratic voters they’ll get endless auto bailouts, and more speeches in which Obama demands stimulus spending in which we hire more union members. Shovel ready jobs, police, teachers, blah blah blah.

    All of this largesse to sucked out of the private sector. Further driving the economy into the toilet. But then hey! Obama or his successor can then demand more stimulus spending.

    This is how the machine works. As long as each cog gets greased.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  44. My take on the original post is that he came to the realization that the liberal mindset was not so much controlled by noble motives as by an ultimately self-contradictory idea of giving everybody what they want, and when the group-think “what we want” conflicted with his priorities, the emptiness of it hit him like a ton of bricks.

    But I know that is definitely reading into it what I want to interpret.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  45. 12. askeptic – sounds like a good day.

    mg (31009b)

  46. I should mention that there’s no way they can keep fleecing and then skinning the taxpayer and leave them armed.

    Oh, and I realize this isn’t really a gay marriage thread but I thought I’d point this out:

    Obama considers intervening in gay marriage case

    Does it surprise anyone that Obama lied when he considered this a state issue back when he announced he was for gay marriage when nobody believed he opposed it?

    Gay marriage isn’t important to liberals for any other reason than it’s a means to destroy the concept of federalism. States will no longer be sovereign entities but merely administrative districts for the central government. That’s part of fundamentally transforming the country. To do that you can’t leave citizens armed, and you can’t leave states with a means to resist the program.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  47. Frankly the only wages the union leadership are interested in are their own six figure salaries, not those of the rank and file.
    Agreed, but the thousands in the unions go along.

    Nothing protects high union wages like pricing unskilled labor out of the market. And these people they want to legalize are overwhelmingly unskilled. So why not legalize them? They won’t be able to get jobs.

    A construction site down the street- the foreman is originally from Ireland, all of the workers doing concrete work, tradesmen level work, habla mas espanol y no ingles.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  48. Doc @44, you’re not reading anything into it. Liberalism, i.e. socialism, is deliberately based upon greed and envy. Class warfare is an essential element.

    It deliberately calls vice virtue, and virtue vice. Redistributing someone else’s wealth they can simultaneously call generosity and “self-interest.” When it’s in one’s own self-interest to be generous with someone else’s money that means you’re voting to steal it in part to benefit yourself.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  49. Thank you, elissa #29.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  50. sorry me and NG went to Chili John’s

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  51. Does it surprise anyone that Obama lied

    They all lied, including Hillary, when they said DOMA was unnecessary and a Constitutional Amendment was really unnecessary, as it was a state matter. They just wanted to delay the issue when there was a lot of momentum to keep a traditional marriage policy.

    I would have voted for guiliani, because even though he is not what I agree with on gay issues and abortion, I believed what he said (rightly or wrongly to believe it) about his not using his position to forward his views and would appoint SCOTUS in a origininal intent mode.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  52. 37. Words to live by.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  53. A problem is the degree that people are ruled by their feelings and impulse, and not by their thinking.

    I used to think this but I’m not so sure anymore. I think single issue voters are ruled by the conviction that one Party is more reliable than the other on that issue.

    Frankly, I think most of us would agree that Democrats are more reliable when it comes to things people who describe themselves in favor of environmental issues or pro-choice or gay rights. I think most would agree that Republicans are more reliable on issues like pro-life, traditional marriage and free markets. That isn’t in dispute, is it?

    Once you get to the point where the issue that matters to you is as clear as it is to Mad Mike — where you are a single issue voter — then the choice is easy and it’s not about feelings.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  54. DRJ – I disagree on environmental issues. So much of what they propose does nothing to actually help the environment, and often times, would cause more net harm.

    JD (b63a52)

  55. This seems like the antithesis of giving up to me, Happyfeet.

    also

    Also, why is it giving up to decide what matters most to you and acting accordingly?

    there are different kinds of giving up

    this guy is giving up on the unifying principle that we should honor all Americans for their right to pursue their happiness in their own way – for him that means having guns at hand for other people it means having abortions or getting gay married and for other people it means drinking some tasty DMAA killpowder and having a productive day

    you can’t ever give up on the idea of america being a place where people are free to live their lives how they see fit you just can’t – at the end of the day this is the only idea what can unite this big messy wonderful country in any meaningful way

    but you *can* give up on politics you can give up on the increasingly nakedly-fascist food stamp party or you can give up on the Republican party with their ridiculous litmus tests for social issues and their extraordinary lack of discipline on fiscal issues

    but you can’t ever give up on freedom and liberty and america and americans

    you can’t say when they come to put you on the train, you can fucking choke and die.

    That is not America.

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  56. Mr. JD would you release my comment I accidentally quoted a nono word from the post

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  57. Comment by Steve57 (60a887) — 2/21/2013 @ 12:57 pm

    We agree on that (though I would make a different emphasis), but I’m not sure Williamson would see it that way, which is what I was trying to say.

    I actually think there is much in the “liberal mindset” that is good, or at least can be good. People don’t want to see people suffer, don’t want to see people treated meanly, etc., etc., and all of that is good and generous and kind-hearted. The problem, I think and as I’ve said before, begins with the delusion that the world is “perfectable”, that utopia and eliminating suffering is possible, so “just do it”. In this effort, the idea that you are taking from some people what you have no right to take, in order to give it to other people who you (and who are you to decide?) think are more deserving gets lost and hidden in the “give their fair share” rhetoric. Yes, at some point those who are putting themselves in charge, and putting themselves above the masses, are wicked and evil.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  58. thank you!

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  59. but you can’t ever give up on freedom and liberty and america and americans

    He isn’t. He did not arrive at his decision in a vacuum. He outlined several factors, very personal, that led him there.

    JD (b63a52)

  60. you can’t say when they come to put you on the train, you can fucking choke and die.

    except for certain values of propaganda slut

    cause of that’s just treason plain and simple

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  61. 47. Frankly the only wages the union leadership are interested in are their own six figure salaries, not those of the rank and file.
    Agreed, but the thousands in the unions go along.

    You mean like the members of the Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers International Union went along with the leadership and went on strike at Hostess? The union boss Frank Hurt still has his job. And he probably thinks he has increased clout because if you recall he put out a statement saying the union knew it was likely Hostess would go under if they struck. “Nice business you have there; it’d be a shame if anything happened to it.”

    So he put 18,000 people out of work right before Christmas, using them as cannon fodder to increase his stature.

    Nothing protects high union wages like pricing unskilled labor out of the market. And these people they want to legalize are overwhelmingly unskilled. So why not legalize them? They won’t be able to get jobs.

    A construction site down the street- the foreman is originally from Ireland, all of the workers doing concrete work, tradesmen level work, habla mas espanol y no ingles.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/21/2013 @ 12:53 pm

    Are you implying there’s a non-union construction site down the street? In Philly? I don’t believe it.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  62. JD,

    I’m saying people who consider themselves single issue environmental voters are more likely to identify with the Democratic Party because that’s the Party that has an environmental agenda. I’m not saying it’s a good or smart agenda. Republicans tend to look at environmental issues in a more nuanced way, because we tend to consider things like the impact on the economy.

    Of course, both sides think they have science on their side. I happen to think many of the scientific aspects of most environmental issues are not clear cut, but I’m sure most liberals would disagree.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  63. Once again we are seeing the disconnect between “our leaders” (The Ruling Class, composed of both parties but primarily Democrats),
    and “the silent majority” (The Country Class, composed mostly of non-Democrats).
    Angelo Codevilla writes about this once more in Forbes
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/02/20/as-country-club-republicans-link-up-with-the-democratic-ruling-class-millions-of-voters-are-orphaned/
    , and reading between the lines, indicates that the GOP may be going the way of the Whigs.
    Some of us, the ones who feel that like Reagan vis-a-vis the Democrat Party, the Party has left us, feel that it can’t happen soon enough.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  64. happyfeet,

    Is it American for me to defend someone else’s rights and values when they won’t defend mine?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  65. A one-sided value system is what’s not American.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  66. well it’s a dark dark path he went down Mr. JD

    he is feeling very unempowered and alienated I think

    even if he is ashamed of America like Mr. Limbaugh and myself and many others, Team Liberty still needs him and he has a Duty to answer the call and that means exercising his freedoms unabashedly while honoring the right of others to do the same he has a Duty to be a sheep among the wolves there standing tall

    even if sometimes sheeps get eated

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  67. Is it American for me to defend someone else’s rights and values when they won’t defend mine?

    omg that’s the most americanest thing there is

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  68. I agree DRJ that people may think one party is more reliable than another on given issues, but I suggest that what they think is based more on percetion and feeling than analytic thinking.

    I want my children to have national parks and clean air and clean water too, but I don’t think the dems are really any more interested in that than repubs, they are just more interested in doing things that have the appearance of being meaningful to irrational zealots.

    One may think the dems are more interested in a “kind” society because they are pro-gay marriage. I think I’m interested in a “kind” society because I know that legalizing one opinion of behavior as opposed to another opinion of behavior does not lead to a kinder society, but one with more strife. Trying to change thousands of years of the experience of billions of people as to what is “normal” or not about marriage because a few hundred elected officials in DC or even a fewer number of judges say so is misguided, I think. Certainly world wide, there are a billion or so Muslims who only see it as an affront and invitation to “kill the infidel”. As a conservative Bible-believing Christian all I want is for gays not to be persecuted and not to be called a “homophobe” because of an intellectual disagreement. I think the gays are much better off with me in charge than people who make apologies for Hassan and cover-up ritual beheadings in NJ.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  69. Yesterday on another site some serious and sober Republicans were commiserating and throwing out ideas about how to win elections and were looking at social media, fronting younger more charismatic leaders and right leaning pundits, better gotv efforts using technology targeting and incentives, more focused message management and broad coordinated placement week to week, etc. etc. A “helpful” Democrat piped in with this analysis:

    (xxxx) is on the right track but the national GOP platform is the real problem. Let’s review how the 2012 version came across:
    If you’re a woman, we will take away your reproductive rights.
    If you’re gay, we will take away your civil rights.
    If you’re a senior, we will take away your Social Security and Medicare.
    If you’re foriegn born, we will take away your path to citizenship.
    If you’re a poor college student, we will take away your access to education.
    If you’re middle class, we will take away some of your income (someone has to pay for the tax cuts for the Romneys of the world).

    Obviously, for those of us who know better, every single one of those points is competely bogus or at least devoid of nuance. But in thinking about it overnight I fear he was correct that this is what a lot of Independents/Dems/Obama voters do think about the GOP, because this is exactly what they’ve been fed over and over and over again by lefty blogs, push pull polls, OFA emails, and Harry Reid (with cover and “legitimacy” for those lies provided by way too many in the ignorant media rabble).

    It’s a big problem. If I didn’t know better and thought the above list is actually what Republicans believe and are coldly working to achieve–I wouldn’t want to vote R either.

    elissa (90eaf8)

  70. Are you implying there’s a non-union construction site down the street? In Philly? I don’t believe it.
    Comment by Steve57 (60a887) — 2/21/2013 @ 1:17 pm

    It is actually across the street in Cheltenham Township…besides, philly is a big place, lots of small time residential stuff gets done by apparently “unoffical” folk. As I speak some Spanish, I get to practice with people from Mexico, Guatamala, Honduras, etc.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  71. One of the interesting young R congressmen from my state is Adam Kinzinger. He spoke at the Lincoln day dinner:

    “We need to be upset about what’s going on in Washington. We need to be upset about what’s going on in Illinois. But we have to do it in a way that’s not about dividing our country. Ronald Reagan won in 1980 not because he stood on national TV and screamed at Jimmy Carter, talked about how terrible everything was and tried to scare the American people. He won because he had a vision of the America he wanted to live in and the America that he believed could exist under his leadership,” Kinzinger said.

    Thirty-eight percent of Americans identify themselves as Republicans (in IL it’s more like 22.3%), which means that …if we want to be a minority party forever, we’re on the right track. If we want to win national elections, we need to take 13 percent and switch them from the ‘I don’t call myself a Republican’ column to ‘You know what? I’m going to be a Republican today.’ We’ll do that by talking about the optimistic hope for our future,” Kinzinger said.

    elissa (90eaf8)

  72. 67.Is it American for me to defend someone else’s rights and values when they won’t defend mine?
    omg that’s the most americanest thing there is
    Comment by happyfeet (4bf7c2) — 2/21/2013 @ 1:25 pm

    feets, it may be American to defend the rights of someone you disagree with, but if you defend the rights of someone who doesn’t defend yours, what you get is a different country than the one you started with, and one much less noble, because all who fought for others are gone, and those who wouldn’t fight for others are the ones left.

    Social contracts need to go both ways, or they are not contracts

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  73. elissa, the fact is nearly every one of those “rights” isn’t a right but a demand upon third party to work to give you something.

    Of course, those aren’t what Conservatives believe, but liberals do believe they have a right to someone else’s cash if to pay for some bennie they really want.

    And I think that’s what’s behind the tone of this 2nd Amendment defense. Abortion and contraception isn’t a right, and it certainly is a basis to force someone to provide it for you.

    Gay marriage isn’t a civil right.

    Social Security and Medicare aren’t rights; they’re wealth transfers from those working to those no longer working who receive welfare benefits far in excess of anything they paid in.

    The foreign born thing is stupid as the only people who are threatened to have their path to citizenship taken away these days are those who arrive here legally. But certainly citizenship isn’t a right.

    Apparently not subsidizing someone’s education is denying them access; no one has heard of working through college these days. Because of course you have a right to that third party’s money.

    And he fact that the Romneys of the world pay far more of their fair share of the taxes won’t stop this “helpful” Democrat from claiming if you don’t raise them further on them you’re “giving” them a cut.

    And why not; the “helpful” Democrats always think that the money is really theirs so if they’re not taking as much as they can they’re “giving” the wealthy something.

    You can not stay truly free in a country where fabricated rights create more wards of the state demanding more and more from the productive.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  74. Wasn’t it Goldwater (AuH2O-64) who said
    “I may disagree with what you say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it!”
    The problem with those on the Left, is that they do not feel that they need to reciprocate.
    And that is the game changer.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  75. Elissa – it is an abject failure of Team R to be as passive as they are in the face of such asshattery.

    JD (a603bd)

  76. Mr. Dr. the same Catholic Charities what are whining about how offering insurance for contraception and abortion to their employees infringes their religious liberties are ALL IN when it comes to taking away your right to own a firearm – to say nothing of their prior support for the other coercive aspects of obamacare.

    You can enjoy watching them choke on their hypocrisy and that’s fine, but at the end of the day the principle is that our fascist monstrosity of a government shouldn’t be dictating the terms on which anyone is insured – or whether they have to be insured at all.

    And that is why you stand up.

    Defending the rights of others is inextricable from defending your own, even if other people are of poor character and hypocritical and such.

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  77. MD,

    Don’t we all think we are being reasonable and people who disagree with us are being emotional? I tend to think we just reason in different ways and/or start with different assumptions.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  78. Is it American for me to defend someone else’s rights and values when they won’t defend mine?

    omg that’s the most americanest thing there is

    As MD says, that’s a one-sided social contract. So much for the notion of everyone being equal.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  79. I’ve twice been reported to Family Services on the grounds that I have guns in the house, which means I’m a danger to my kids (which complaints were laughed at, here in Indiana).

    I’ve been accused of racism…because I own guns.

    I’ve been accused of fascism…because I own guns.

    I’ve been called a coward..

    Yes, but did they call the Enterprise a “garbage scow”?

    furious_a (3a3354)

  80. I think you are confusing the rights with equality. We need both, but you are only recognizing the rights without the equality.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  81. 67. Is it American for me to defend someone else’s rights and values when they won’t defend mine?

    omg that’s the most americanest thing there is

    Comment by happyfeet (4bf7c2) — 2/21/2013 @ 1:25 pm

    I think I’d rather phrase it as, why should I defend some fabricated “right” that isn’t in the Constitution when they only made it up to deprive me of the rights that are?

    Sure, there’s a First Amendment right to the free exercise of religion but what does that compare to a woman’s reproductive rights? Besides, according to this administration they’re not prohibiting the “free exercise” of religion because that only means you can pick your favorite church on Sunday if you choose to go. the “free exercise thereof” in reference of religion does not mean you can live by its tenets, especially when it conflicts with Sandra Fluke’s need to have someone subsidize her massive recreational sex bill.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  82. equality under the law in david gregory’s america

    ain’t really on the table anymore

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  83. but you can’t ever give up on freedom and liberty and america and americans

    you can’t say when they come to put you on the train, you can fucking choke and die.

    That is not America.

    The problem, happyfeet, is that the people the author was adressing are about to put the author on the train over the issue of guns.

    He’s not saying he’s giving up on the concept of freedom, he’s saying that he’s just not going to fight along side them anymore.

    Chuck Bartowski (11fb31)

  84. well if they’re trying to put him on the train he should shoot them with his gun I think Mr. Bartowski

    this would be a Moment Of Clarity for all concerned

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  85. I’ve twice been reported to Family Services on the grounds that I have guns in the house, which means I’m a danger to my kids (which complaints were laughed at, here in Indiana)

    I hope Mike said “hi” to Brett, given that that sounds like the Kimberlin Crime Family in action.

    SPQR (768505)

  86. happyfeet, you are completely missing Mad Mike’s point.

    SPQR (768505)

  87. Steve57–I doubt I could have been more clear @69 that the “helpful democrat’s” list was utterly false and we all know it-which is why I didn’t bother to fisk it line by line . Still, whether these are “rights” or “wants” that are being mischaracterized and lied about by the left is almost immaterial to any discussion if it happens to be what many current voters do believe about the GOP and are voting either for or against. Refuting these falsehoods eloquently on a blog with many kindred spirits (as you have done here) hardly addresses the larger problem with all those who are ignorant of the law and are not kindred spirits. Does anybody have any good ideas on how to reach some of them? The 2012 R campaigns clearly did not succeed.

    You will note that the “helpful democrat” of my story was quite careful to say that’s the message that “came across”–not that the message was true.

    elissa (90eaf8)

  88. elissa,

    I think a lot of voters believe that about the GOP and individual Republicans. What we’ve failed to do is tell them why we think these are bad ideas, but it’s not like the information isn’t out there. Some voters simply don’t want to hear another point of view because they’ve already made up their minds, either from peer pressure or a pre-existing mindset. Unfortunately, voters who are open to other views are fed a steady diet of progressive PR by the media and pop culture. That’s what we need to counteract.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  89. “but you can’t ever give up on freedom and liberty and america and americans”

    Mr. Feets – LOL. That is exactly what Mr. Empty Suit Greasy Azzed Socialist Blameshifter and you are asking us to do because we will have an omnipotent federal bureaucracy with absolute moral authority making all our important life choices for us because we should not have the freedom to make wrong choices on our own, or so the theory goes. Just surrender to the tyranny of moral relativism and the state and you will be free to pursue whatever happiness and liberty remains in your life, sort of like Cuba or North Korea. What could go wrong?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  90. well if they’re trying to put him on the train he should shoot them with his gun I think Mr. Bartowski

    That’s pretty much what he did with his blog post, feets.

    Chuck Bartowski (11fb31)

  91. happyfeet,

    I’m no philosopher but let’s assume you’re correct that Americans have an obligation to recognize other citizen’s rights, even if they intentionally don’t reciprocate. Do you view American government as ruling based on a social contract, i.e., that government rules based on the consent of the governed? If not, what is your theory of what gives the American government power over its citizens?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  92. Have you heard this Rush Limbaugh statement, happyfeet? Is this what you mean by giving up on America?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  93. We’re certainly in the ‘Crazy Years’, the right to self defense, the right to your own property, (re Kelo, and the EPA) those are under assault, through
    the AGW myth, the President says your own labor isn’t yours, and that’s not considered the crazy
    thing,

    narciso (3fec35)

  94. I’m still of a mind that we need a drastic reduction in the number of POVs to sort out this mess.

    Naw, I don’t wanna go first.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  95. I used to vote because of my belief in this country.
    Then I started voting because I despise liberalism.
    Now I’m done voting because the collectivists have taken over the republican party.

    mg (31009b)

  96. Some voters simply don’t want to hear another point of view because they’ve already made up their minds

    DRJ, it goes back to the basic conflict between The Right and The Left:
    Conservatives believe that The Left is wrong;
    The Left believes that Conservatives are evil!

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  97. And Rush was right – this argument has been going on since the onset of The Great Society, and they use the same BS talking points today that they used then, and they’re no more truthful today.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  98. elissa, you are correct, there are many kindred spirits. But even here I find there are people who don’t realize that what many of those things Mr. Williamson says he no longer cares about are not rights.

    As for the other people we need to reach, I really don’t know what will work. I would probably start by pointing out to Mr. “helpful” Democrat that none of those “Romney tax cuts” are going to cost the middle class as much as ObamaCare. As the IRS has discovered the least expensive “Bronze” plan will cost $20k/yr. And it’s that expensive because it needs to cover all those people on Medicaid. Providers lose more on Medicaid patients than they do the uninsured, and thanks to Obamacare the middle class will have to pay more to cover the shortfall as providers overcharge those with insurance to do so.

    Obama is taking a lot more of the middle class’ income then Romney ever would.

    Then I’d probably point out that the title of what may be the definitive book on Thomas Jefferson and slavery is titled “Those who labor for my happiness” : slavery at Thomas Jefferson’s Monticello.

    Even plantation slaves didn’t labor all the time for their masters. They did work some of the time such as tending kitchen gardens for themselves.

    So now we’re just talking percentages. How much time would Mr. “Helpful” Democrat demand others labor for his happiness? To provide him with all the welfare benefits such as free school, free healthcare, Social Security, and Medicaid or Medicare and who knows what else would make him happy. 30% of the time as was the case in 2012 or 90% of the time as was the case in the antebellum south.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  99. DRJ my theory is that government governs best what governs least.

    By this standard we have a remarkably crappy government.

    But um. Beyond that I just think Angry Bob up there in the post is on the wrong track, and for why I think that mostly I just keep going back to this.

    The issue is not that the nation has tilted to center-left. The issue is that the Republican Party is playing by the liberal view that rights are endowed by the state and we must advocate for the rights we believe Americans should espouse. As a result, the GOP is a party held hostage to the social values issues, and we no longer represent the majority on those social values.

    I live my life by the conservative values that the Republican Party strives to represent. But my values are not endowed by the government; they are endowed by my Creator. And while my pursuit of happiness might be completely in line with conservative values, I reject the Republican Party’s belief that my pursuit of happiness is the path all Americans should pursue.

    You want to expand the Republican party beyond the social-issue Republicans? Honor all Americans for their right to pursue their happiness in their own way. A majority Republican party will necessarily look a lot more libertarian. A majority of Americans no longer share my conservative values, but they do share my desire to pursue happiness without Federal Government intervention.

    I think there’s a way forward demarcated here. Believe me I would love to let it all burn cause fire is pretty and America is so contemptible and ghetto lately. But a lot of normal regular old people would get hurt doing it that way.

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  100. i probably meant delineated huh

    it’s almost time to dose myself with the DMAA killpowder I think

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  101. #72 MD. That was very well said,sir.

    #76, happyfeet. I am not sure how you got there, sir. I see no hypocrisy in your example.

    Catholic leaders are obliged to resist any efforts to coerce an illicit action from the faithful. The fact that religious liberty is an enumerated right in the USC is incidental to the defense of faith and morals. It is the requirement of paying for an illicit act that is at the heart of the issue for all christians, not just Catholics.

    If there was no religious right in the USC, Catholic leaders would still object and resist the unjust HHR mandate. Indeed, as you point out, they are defending everyone’s right, not just their own.

    Moreover, there is no obligation for Catholic leaders to defend the second amendment or any other part of the USC – they have taken no oath to do so. Since it is neither a question of faith nor a question of morals, all christians are free to take differing positions regarding gun control.

    I, as a faithful Catholic, am free to disagree with the letter sent to Congress by Faiths United. I do disagree with it. The second item they propose is, in my opinion, just plain wrong.

    The hypocrisy exists elsewhere, my friend. Prolly amongst those that have taken an oath to defend the USC.

    felipe (3243af)

  102. 99. Every dog has its day. Maybe its the Libertarians’ turn? We could do worse.

    Anyway I’ll bet I haven’t voted for my last Republican.

    Michele will run for something.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  103. 92. For me it was Nov. 6th, say 10 PM.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  104. You want to expand the Republican party beyond the social-issue Republicans? Honor all Americans for their right to pursue their happiness in their own way. A majority Republican party will necessarily look a lot more libertarian. A majority of Americans no longer share my conservative values, but they do share my desire to pursue happiness without Federal Government intervention.

    Mr. feets, since they don’t share your conservative values many of them will pursue happiness in ways that will convince the majority of the electorate that people must be controlled. For their own good. Plus it’s costing everyone else money.

    “If it feels good do it” has led to more government intervention, not less.

    Which brings us back to the gun control issue.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  105. 101. I’m certain most of us will soon be obliged to defy our government(s), and this time without expecting to escape the consequences.

    I don’t know about ‘end times’ but tribulation is certainly on the threshold, even if limited to Israel by definition.

    “All nations will be blessed because of you, and will bless themselves in blessing you.”

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  106. i think y’all are overthinking it Mr. felipe and Mr. Steve

    it’s good to stand up for people what are pursuing freedoms from leviathan

    not cause they’ll stand up for you, but cause it’s just a good idea to never miss a chance to bop leviathan on the nose really hard with a rolled-up newspaper and say BAD LEVIATHAN BAD

    otherwise leviathan piddles on the rug and drinks out of the toilet

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  107. It’s provable that if we required proof of need before awarding a driver’s license, we’d have less car accidents.

    Probably. Wonder what sort of experimental conditions he has in mind.

    However not only licensed people drive, and certainly not only licensed drivers cause collisions.

    That passage seems an odd assertion to me, and appears to imply somebody should be able to deny others’ liberty by simply questioning the legitimacy of their needs.

    Somehow, this seems to remind me of another current debate going on.

    tek (1c5b2a)

  108. Mr. feets @106, I’m not overthinking it. I’m just pointing out that libertarianism and nation of Lindsey Lohans don’t mix.

    When it’s assumed people won’t control themselves, then they’ll demand someone control them. Which is where we are.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  109. No one’s jokes makes me laugh like your jokes do, Mr. feets. You have a gift for levity that this blog’s comment section greatly benefits from. Thank you.

    I do not believe Mr. Steve is overthinking anything. Just sayin’

    felipe (3243af)

  110. You are too fast for me!

    felipe (3243af)

  111. but we’re not a nation of Lindsay Lohans that is hyperbole

    besides we’re not even a nation anymore we’re just an extended food stamp distribution network

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  112. hf,

    Our system isn’t based on “let me do what I want.” It’s based on balancing rights and responsibilities — it’s based on limits — because we know not everyone can do what they want.

    You don’t want the government to tell you who can and who can’t be married, but should we let people marry whoever they want — no matter how young they are? Or how many people they want to marry?

    You don’t want the government to tell you what guns you can buy, but should we let felons and people declared mentally ill to have guns?

    It’s all well and good to argue that we should abandon social issues but people care about them and they want some limits. Further, there’s a libertarian option on the ballot in virtually every election and people don’t vote for it.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  113. A new lapel button that says:

    Get food stamps. Ask me how.

    felipe (3243af)

  114. But I definitely agree that Republicans would do well to remember that small government solutions work better than big government solutions.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  115. “otherwise leviathan piddles on the rug and drinks out of the toilet”

    Mr. Feets – Other people, they say they gotta holla at Mr. Leviatan to throw down with some free wacker wrappers cuz they gotta get their freak on for the liberties and happiness.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  116. Does anyone really think most Americans have decided they like liberalism? I still think Americans have told us they like Barack Obama, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they like liberalism.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  117. hyperbole? These gun-control freaks are demanding the names and addresses of gun owners be made public so people can decide not to live there cuz they won’t feel safe knowing the guy five doors down has a gun.

    Just as they wouldn’t feel safe knowing there was a sex offender in that house. Or LiLo knowing she has a case of vodka in the house and a Porsche in the garage.

    Because you just never know when any of them will go off their nut.

    Actually the LiLo comparison is probably most apt. Just like we all know “demon rum” makes people do bad things (and didn’t prohibition work out so well) the gun is the cause of crime. It’s the modern version of “the devil made him do it.”

    Steve57 (60a887)

  118. OK, JD, this is how I would edit it down.

    1. remove the following:

    Yup. I’m taking you at your word. Want money? Don’t care. Want a petition signed? Call someone who who gives a shit. Want a link spread? Yawn. Women or gays or blacks or Hispanics don’t feel they’re being treated nicely? So what?

    2. Change:

    So when they come to put you on the train, you can fucking choke and die.

    To:

    So when they come to throw you under the bus, don’t count on my saving you.

    The “Yup” graph damages much of the sympathy won by the merits of the previous arguments.

    felipe (3243af)

  119. Yes. that’s like those roving bans of SUV’s that were running people down in the late 90s and the early 00s

    narciso (3fec35)

  120. Lemme see.

    School of fish.

    Murder of crows.

    Bans of SUVs.

    Sounds right.

    felipe (3243af)

  121. ok you have a good point about limits but most of the limitings can and should happen at the state level I think

    Mr. daley president food stamp has demonstrated a great gift for exposing so many of our fellow americans to where we can see them for the greedy slutty stupid petty creatures they are. It’s really horrifying and saddening. And demoralizing.

    He does it on purpose.

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  122. Mr. 57 the gun control freaks are just as fascist as the Mothers Against Drunk Driving freaks.

    Which, that is pretty scary damn fascist.

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  123. He’s been working at this for nearly twenty years, at the Joyce Foundation, he helped underwrite most of that gun control propaganda, he opened up the subprime path, with the suit against Citigroup,

    narciso (3fec35)

  124. I don’t think the majority of people necessarily like liberalism, and I don’t think a majority of people even like Obama. They like what Obama says, and they like what they think Obama stands for. And since the majority of the “passive press” doesn’t point out how what he says and does are two different things, they don’t know any better.

    Really, it shouldn’t be any harder than to point out that the senate and the president haven’t agreed on a budget between themselves to show that they have no serious intention of even achieving the minimum of responsible government.

    As far as the previous point about do we not all think we have reasoned thinking? My idea of reasoned thinking is that one follows out the consequences and ramifications of what one thinks, and sees if that is what they expected and want to live with.

    By all means people start out with differing assumptions and perspectives. But I think too often people don’t think about what their assumptions are, or what the consequences of their beliefs will be.

    For one example take the Vietnam War. Many anti-war protestors claimed that it was the US causing the strife and if we would just get out everything would be fine. I think people had legitimate questions as to how we got involved, what were our appropriate responsibilities and goals, what tactics were reasonable, etc., but for the most part it was portrayed as “America, love it or leave it” vs “America is the great oppressor, burn the flag”.

    The same with Iraq. I think there are a lot of legitimate questions about whether we should have gone into Iraq and if so how. But once the issue is falsely framed as “Bush lied and people died” and “are you for or against bushitler” there isn’t much room for thoughtful discussion.

    It’s all Alinsky/lucifer/devil playbook- don’t discuss actual merits of a position, “demonize” your opponent. People may think they are using reason, but is it really reasonable to believe, as nancy pelosi says, that many of us just don’t care about having clean air or water, or whether children go to bed hungry?

    On the other hand, it wouldn’t seem very reasonable to say that the media and the president are lying to us all of the time.

    the only solution is to do the best one can at finding facts and not simply going by assumptions and beliefs.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  125. Mr. Feets – How do I avoid drinking or showering in the corpse water on my next trip to Los Angeles? Forget the DMAA geranium kill powder. Say no to corpse water.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  126. you live in Chicago you had that boy die up top the intercontinental just a couple months ago

    but yeah we get floaters for some reason

    you just have to carry a vial of bleach with you really

    happyfeet (acd614)

  127. I really needed to read this today. Thanks.

    WarEagle82 (2b7355)

  128. Does anyone really think most Americans have decided they like liberalism? I still think Americans have told us they like Barack Obama, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they like liberalism.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/21/2013 @ 5:46 pm

    I dont know DRJ, when you and I went to school, we took civics, opened the morning with the pledge of allegience, went to youth group, played sports.

    Now kids learn about ficticious facts in black history month, learn that we stole the west from the mexicans, polluted the earth, youth group is bad, Jesus is indocrination and sports are where everyone is a winner

    EPWJ (bdd0a6)

  129. That’s corps water, Daley.

    felipe (3243af)

  130. That’s probably true of the under-30 group, EPWJ, although I hope some may rethink what they were taught after a dose of reality.

    DRJ (8b9d41)

  131. I will ask some students to recite the pledge of allegience. I’ll let you know how many know it.

    felipe (3243af)

  132. Of course, there is an irony in Obama’s support or dissent about Iraq, he opposed it in 2002; then when was Senator for the first two years, he voted for the funding, because of one of his patron’s investments, and then he voted against it, the last two years, when the deal fell through,

    narciso (3fec35)

  133. Does anyone really think most Americans have decided they like liberalism? I still think Americans have told us they like Barack Obama, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they like liberalism.

    Beyond EPWJ’s comments — which point out part of the problem (and, btw, public-school textbooks in California now must emphasize famous GLBT people throughout history) — I think human nature in general, throughout the world, has to be scrutinized. Regrettably, I don’t think the nature of Americans is necessarily all that different from the nature of many peoples elsewhere, certainly in the 21st century.

    I see the socio-political anomie and decline (and various forms of corruption) in Europe and places like Mexico and Argentina, and I believe we’re merely running parallel with those societies. So it’s just a matter of whether our soft-headed liberalism precedes or follows what’s evident elsewhere by X or Y number of years or, at most, by X or Y number of decades.

    Mark (767b53)

  134. i didn’t think people like liberalism I think they’re disgusted with the Republican party to where larges swathes of people don’t even take it remotely seriously anymore

    it’s not like it’s option b

    it’s just not an option

    this is what has happened through akinisms large and small

    through akinisms and mourdockisms and joe walshisms and palinisms and philip gingreyisms

    and whatever that weirdo romney hedge fund boy scout tabernacle choir boys from brazil campaign was about

    and bachmannisms and someone just needs to buy rick perry a pacifier

    plus you have your phony lying obamawhore republicans like the colin powell and the weirdo pansy from utah and joe scarborough and michael steele

    plus you have porky porky chris christie actively kneecapping your nominee while sticking his tongue up food stamp’s fundament for spare change

    PLUS you have a lot of backasswards 700 clubber social positions RIGHT THERE IN YOUR PLATFORM WHERE EBBYONE CAN SEE

    plus fox news is not your friend it has its own agenda

    remember on election night when all the fox propaganda whores suddenly shut up about porky porky’s role in obama’s victory?

    I sure do it was like someone flipped a switch

    happyfeet (acd614)

  135. [mimes flipping a switch]

    yup that’s what it was like

    happyfeet (acd614)

  136. although I hope some may rethink what they were taught after a dose of reality.

    Comment by DRJ (8b9d41) — 2/21/2013 @ 8:19 pm

    I agree, AND THAT DOSE is oh so occuring right now in the job market!

    EPWJ (bdd0a6)

  137. happyfeet, you need to come out of the ideological closet. You’re more sympathetic with liberalism — in its various forms or guises — than you care to admit.

    BTW, I think people who leaned left several decades ago were one thing (eg, around the time when parts of Europe, no less, in the name of nationalism would declare war on one another, or when legislation in the US to ban lynching was controversial). For people to have similar sentiments today is a totally different matter.

    Mark (767b53)

  138. AND THAT DOSE is oh so occuring right now in the job market!

    But consider the ongoing example of France. Even though the unemployment rate among the youth in that society is extremely high — and unemployment has been consistently high for a few decades (at least by US standards) — that demographic in large numbers (of course, along with other age groups) elected a flat-out Socialist to their presidency last year.

    Stupid is as stupid does—and it generally leans left, no matter what.

    Mark (767b53)

  139. nonono I’m a very staunch conservative

    we have to shrink the government and let freedom ring and we have to stop electing fascist soros pigs like food stamp and we have to abjure the propaganda sluts

    also we have to make the energies bubble up bubble up from the bottom of the sea and from the shales and from below the tundras

    also we have to trade trade trade and we have to cut regulations everywhere even some that people like

    we have to reform the tax code and make it simpler and flatter and fairer and we don’t need to tax capital gains at all because that’s dumb

    we also need to support community colleges as a counterweight to America’s disgustingly fascist university system (except for some stem programs)

    also we need to divorce the fascist American Bar Association from any role in selecting judges

    also we need to legalize the marijuana and begin to roll back our pitiful little country’s burgeoning police state and all the piggy piggy parasitic first responder pension whores that adhere to it

    also we need to get rid of ethanol subsidies given how much petrochemical abundance we have – that money is far better spent studying coal-to-liquids conversion if we want to have a back-pocket energy source for emergencies

    also we need to reform the entitlements and also we need to repudiate and deprogram food stamp and all who adhere to his fascist cult of personality

    also we need to take states rights far far far more seriously than we do

    happyfeet (acd614)

  140. Ordinarily I might give worries about social decay arising from wholesale implementation of a laissez faire regime cum Amsterdam, Libertarianism taken to its logical ends.

    Unfortunately the times surrounding election 2016 render this treatment of halitosis or a hang nail.

    A Libertarian’s likely comportment in exercise of martial law isn’t something I’ve given deep thought to but in a period of global conflagration it seems a benign gambit.

    As Dr. Reynolds, libertarian, sometimes opines, ‘In the future everything will be illegal.’ I might prefer a secured whip during world war.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  141. might give heed to

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  142. Soros pig, is all about legalizing marijuana, while making carbs specially transfats, fossil fuels, firearms, verboten, why do you think they sunk Bork and tried to do the same to Thomas,

    narciso (3fec35)

  143. nonono I’m a very staunch conservative

    Perhaps in certain economic areas, but not overall. BTW, I’m not dogging you about your ideological biases to be negative, but because I’m trying to be accurately descriptive.

    I’m not sure if there are many people out there who are a flip side version of you, or those who are socially, culturally conservative, but economically very liberal. However, I’m aware that in the history of Communism in the Soviet Union and Red China, humans who were the ultimate examples of economic ultra-liberals (or ultra-ultra-liberals) also could be notoriously prudish about cultural issues.

    Mark (767b53)

  144. 130. That’s probably true of the under-30 group, EPWJ, although I hope some may rethink what they were taught after a dose of reality.

    Comment by DRJ (8b9d41) — 2/21/2013 @ 8:19 pm

    The dose of reality many are getting, unfortunately, is that on liberalism’s animal farm some pigs are more equal than others.

    California Dept. of Transportation: ‘Be Sure to Black Out the ‘United States’ and [the] Motto’

    For three years, a private citizen named Steve LeBard has led the effort to build a privately funded memorial in Orcutt, California—a tranquil small town located on the Golden State’s gorgeous Central Coast—to honor military veterans. And for the better part of those three years, he has run into a toxic blend of political correctness, anti-Americanism, and bureaucratic senselessness. Today, the memorial, which was to be built with private funds on a small piece of public land, remains unbuilt.

    …CalTrans, it seems, regards certain aspects of the services’ symbols or seals as problematic. For example, the Army’s permission letter to LeBard clearly states that its symbol “cannot be altered in any manner.” But CalTrans wants it altered. Specifically, CalTrans demands the removal of the motto “E Pluribus Unum” — which appears on our coins, has appeared on the Great Seal of the United States since the 18th century, and was first proposed as the motto for such a seal on July 4, 1776. CalTrans also demands the removal of two other words — “United States.” (This would leave just one word on the symbol: “Army.”) As CalTrans wrote to LeBard in advance of the hearing, “Be sure to black out the ‘United States’ and motto part of the seal.”

    …But just when all appeared to be nearly resolved, the current director of CalTrans, Malcolm Dougherty, wrote a letter to LeBard in which he declared the following:

    “In order to sell its property, Caltrans is required to review and approve metes and bounds, draft property descriptions for fair market appraisal, and obtain review and approval by the Right of Way Division, the Environmental Division, the Project Development Division, and Maintenance and Operations Division of Caltrans to ensure that no other public projects require the property and that there are no archaeological or environmental impediments to the relinquishing of the property.

    “This process requires extensive public labor and other resources. A conservative estimate to cover the cost of these resources is $10,000.”

    …In other words, OTORA would have to pay $10,000 to CalTrans (based on a “conservative estimate”) just to decide how much CalTrans would then charge for the land that CalTrans would sell to Santa Barbara County at OTORA’s expense.

    LeBard said no thanks and pursued yet another angle. Having learned that CalTrans had sanctioned — as a Transportation Art Program project — the building of Chicano Park in San Diego, where murals feature portraits of Fidel Castro and Che Guevara, LeBard decided to reclassify his intended memorial as an art project. He called it, “A Tribute to the Protectors of Freedom.”

    At first, CalTrans encouraged the idea. But then, perhaps inevitably, it determined that the words “United States” and “E Pluribus Unum” aren’t nearly so benign as the likenesses of communist revolutionaries; that, unlike such likenesses, the name of our country and the motto on our Great Seal — like our flag itself — have no place on our public lands.

    Just so you know, the bureaucracy isn’t senseless. When they don’t want you to build something the unaccountable bureaucrats can throw up endless roadblocks. Some of them actually illegal, but since they’re not personally responsible go ahead. It’ll just cost the plaintiff thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands, and possibly years. It won’t cost the bureaucrats a dime or a minute of their time.

    But on the other hand they (as well as city and county planning commissions, and the California Coastal Commission if you’re doing a project in the coastal zone) can approve the project with minimal delay if they want to.

    Which treatment do you think the people who built that shrine to Castro and Che Guevara et al got?

    All in all liberalism and it’s administrative regulatory state isn’t so bad if you the more equal pig. And on the receiving end of the wealth transfer.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  145. *but since they’re not personally responsible go ahead and sue (a civil suit almost always the only remedy the law provides).*

    Steve57 (60a887)

  146. Stupid is as stupid does—and it generally leans left, no matter what.

    Comment by Mark (767b53) — 2/21/2013 @ 8:55 pm

    Woudnt count France out, Mark, yes they are classic liberals but there is a strong core of hard working innovative and aggressive business class. Renault has reinvented itself and is making strong inroads, they are thinking of relaunching their own Aircraft company to make passenger jets as Dassault is essentailly Airbus.

    France will always have Paris, but then again there is the rest of france

    EPWJ (bdd0a6)

  147. Whether you agree with him or not I think you were very condescending to happyfeet just above. Maybe you’re the one with the worrisome biases, Mark. Maybe your litmus test for conservatives is the one that’s askww.

    elissa (90eaf8)

  148. This just in:

    http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2013/02/no-one-show-joe-salazar-one-chart-that.html

    Yeah, all that talk about a magnet for disaffected ‘fornians, I don’t hear it either.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  149. France will always have Paris, but then again there is the rest of france

    When I find myself becoming overly conscious of the role and influence of politics and government — and how that shapes humans and places — I remind myself about the dynamics of people voting with their feet. And how that form of “voting” can make or unmake whole societies or communities. For example, San Francisco and Detroit are both leftwing-loony piles, but one is truly a debacle, the other one isn’t. Maybe that’s why I’m never totally sure if I’m being overly optimistic or cynical about how things will fare in the long run.

    Maybe your litmus test for conservatives is the one that’s askww.

    Elissa, I don’t know why you say that when happyfeet routinely and regularly expresses unhappiness, if not flat-out disdain, towards socio-cultural conservatism and conservatives. If that isn’t a reflection of left-leaning impulses, than what is it? BTW, most people have bits and pieces of biases, spanning from left to right, so just about all of us can identify leftism or rightism, in ourselves or others. For example, happyfeet is a big supporter of same-sex marriage (ie, his left side), while he often uses the word “gay” disparagingly (ie, his right side).

    Mark (767b53)

  150. It couldn’t happen here:

    http://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/bracken-democide/

    We’re all civilized.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  151. == happyfeet routinely and regularly expresses unhappiness, if not flat-out disdain, towards socio-cultural conservatism and conservatives. If that isn’t a reflection of left-leaning impulses, than what is it? ==

    Oh, I dunno. Maybe its being a Goldwater Conservative?

    elissa (90eaf8)

  152. 151. I candidly admit, before God and my fellow man, I’m not picking up Feets’ web of interconnected, contigent belief.

    I continue to be surprised.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  153. Funny, I vaguely recall the business cycle lasting several years at a blow:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-21/global-leading-indicator-shows-slowdown-dead-ahead

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  154. thank you Elissa I don’t…

    the tent is very confining at times

    To be represented, to trust that one’s own identity and interests are secure and advocated in high places, is to be part of the polity.

    that is a quote from the internet, and republicans what don’t care if gay people get married or if sally peterson in utica has an abortion are NOT represented in america

    flat-out disdain, towards socio-cultural conservatism and conservatives

    busted

    yup you busted me

    while in real life I’m a lot more sympathetic to socons being related to them and growed up with them and such… you can’t anymore pretend like it’s ok for people to hijack the party as pompously as the socons have and still get the point across that NO it’s not ok and why?

    first of all they’re VERY you give an inch they take a mile about crap

    but also because it’s a big reason why Team R loser candidates keep losing and me and mine get treated to heaping piles of fascism

    logic and empirical observation dictates the reluctant conclusion that your visible akins and mourdocks are but the tip of an insidious iceberg of fail

    and that is not cool it’s actually a from of fraud

    so I am done… in this way I’m like Angry Bob up there

    I won’t vote for lifeydoodles anymore

    roobs you are on your own

    susan b anthony crotchsniffer paul ryan you are on your own

    your theological angst is sooooo not my problem and sorry the truth is I know FAR more about your religious beliefs than is decent

    have a little dignity you over-sharing losers

    how much do I know about Hillary’s religious beliefs?

    not a goddamn thing and that’s one of the only attractive things about that trashy fascist may I say cooze

    we have real problems here in this sad little country

    grow up lifeydoodles nobody thinks you’re remotely cute anymore what isn’t named duggar and I tell you another thing

    Reagan is dead and rotted

    he’s a mouldering corpse and so is his vaunted three-legged stool

    moveon.org people

    happyfeet (acd614)

  155. a *form* of fraud I mean

    wow that was kinda long sorry about that

    happyfeet (acd614)

  156. Oh, I dunno. Maybe its being a Goldwater Conservative?

    Actually, that label (or the politician it’s named for) is a reflection of the various biases, leftwing ones included, that most people have. Liberal impulses, by the way, are the origins of some of the biggest blunders of Republican-, right-leaning politicians, including Ronald Reagan, the two Bushes, Nixon (of course) and Herbert Hoover.

    By contrast, one of the singular exemplary decisions associated with left-leaning John F. Kennedy can be traced to his conservative impulses, when he promoted the idea of reducing tax rates. But that guy sure was an ultra-liberal socially, with recent revelations indicating he could be as bad, if not worst, than any lurid novel might make him out to be. ABC News interviewed a woman last year who (when still college-age) was a regular visitor to the West Wing during the early 1960s. She described a moment when she, JFK and his major adviser were hanging out at the White House indoor swimming pool and was asked by JFK to perform oral sex on his adviser, with his wanting to stick around and watch.

    One can only imagine what’s going on in private with the current occupant of the White House, who in far more ways is super liberal (economically and culturally) even by the standards of the 2010s compared with JFK of the late 1950s, early 1960s.

    Mark (767b53)

  157. Relatives, can’t live with them, not ‘effin here for starters without them.

    I’d regale y’all with stories about loud, drunken, boorish, obsessive Packer fans, but you’d hate me in the morning.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  158. um… happyfeet….

    wow…..just…..wow

    just on aside note Romney wasnt a Republican nor a conservatibe

    just sayin

    EPWJ (bdd0a6)

  159. and I will never look a saffron scented cupcakes in the same light again,,,

    its just not the same anymore

    EPWJ (bdd0a6)

  160. “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”

    “God is no respecter of men”

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  161. gary

    why did God make Packer fans?

    cause he already created the homeless..

    EPWJ (bdd0a6)

  162. but also because it’s a big reason why Team R loser candidates keep losing and me and mine get treated to heaping piles of fascism

    But that reminds me of various pundits, from the left and right, who have mused for awhile that a major reason a large percentage of Latino voters are leaning left is because the Republican Party and many conservative pols are perceived as being anti-illegal-immigrant. Okay, if that’s the case, then how do those same pundits explain all the mindless, one-party-forever leftism in Mexico? Is that due to anti-immigration positions taken by certain non-liberal politicians throughout Mexico?

    Mark (767b53)

  163. 159. I feel so coarse, so vulgar, chocolate chocolate chip for me, Texas-sized.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  164. Oh good allah, Mark. Now you’re calling freedom lover Barry Goldwater–Mr. Conservative– a closet lefty? And you somehow managed to put him into the same paragraphs with JFK’s getting/watching blowjobs? What is the matter with you that all you can see about people are their supposed “impulses” and “biases” and sex lives? Regardless of your intentions– (although it’s often unlear what they actually are)–it’s starting to get downright creepy if you ask me. Maybe you might reconsider your apparent assumption that you are the only one who can sniff out a true conservative and that it is somehow your duty to do so.

    elissa (90eaf8)

  165. happyfeet- your non vote in the last election, lazy or too busy?

    mg (31009b)

  166. i honestly thought Romney couldn’t lose Mr. mg

    and plus I live in california

    I did send for an absentee ballot but it didn’t come in time

    so anyway I had a short window to get out and see america before my new job started and I had to git going before the weather turned

    I went to america’s oldest city st. augustine for to watch Romney win and see america repudiate fascism

    um

    then I went to disneywhirl and rode every last damn ride

    happyfeet (acd614)

  167. I have no problems with Mr. Feets. He is welcome to drink my corpse water any time.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  168. corpse water!

    mmmm!

    tastes like…

    food stamps!

    happyfeet (acd614)

  169. happyfeet- wish I could have seen the U.S.A. in a chevrolet.
    I don’t think voting matters anymore, with only dems and the gop to choose from.

    mg (31009b)

  170. OOh, the hotel with the deadly water tank is somewhat notorious and has a grisly history. Maybe people ahould not stay there.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/21/us/california-horror-hotel/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

    elissa (90eaf8)

  171. Now you’re calling freedom lover Barry Goldwater–Mr. Conservative– a closet lefty?

    Elissa, so do you think each and every person out there is totally one way or the other? That their ideological preferences are totally pure? I don’t. That’s why it would be ridiculous to label Goldwater as 100% rightwing, which depending on one’s POV, either is a good or bad thing.

    What is the matter with you that all you can see about people are their supposed “impulses” and “biases” and sex lives?

    You’re the one who interpreted my scrutiny of what made Kennedy and Goldwater tick as somehow based only on their sexual behavior. What was reported by ABC News was merely incidental to other aspects of two well-known public figures of over 45 years ago. And least you think I associate liberalism and its adherents as totally one way or the other, Harry Truman, a big supporter of socialized healthcare back in the 1950s, and who’d often slam conservatives on the campaign trail (and he’d cast the word “conservative” in a negative light), was known to be rather prudish about socio-cultural (ie, sexual) matters.

    Mark (767b53)

  172. there’s still local stuff

    which will at least help keep Team R kinda maybe viable for awhile

    but yeah I’m not sure exactly why that’s something to be hoped for

    happyfeet (acd614)

  173. Yeah. OK. I rest my case.

    G’night all.

    elissa (90eaf8)

  174. 151. Oh, I dunno. Maybe its being a Goldwater Conservative?

    Comment by elissa (90eaf8) — 2/21/2013 @ 9:59 pm

    Which Goldwater, elissa? The socially conservative Goldwater who ran in 1964?

    Who quoted Washington in his speeches, who said “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.”

    Who was largely responsible for the 1964 Republican platform which contained this:

    Much of today’s moral decline and drift—much of the prevailing preoccupation with physical and material comforts of life—much of today’s crass political appeals to the appetites of the citizenry—can be traced to a leadership grown demagogic and materialistic through indifference to national ideals founded in devoutly held religious faith. The Republican Party seeks not to renounce this heritage of faith and high purpose; rather, we are determined to reaffirm and reapply it.

    Or the later Goldwater who reversed many of his positions after he retired from the Senate?

    Steve57 (60a887)

  175. Many believe that the change in Barry’s viewpoint after his retirement had something to do with his new wife, who was his nurse.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  176. This is from William F. Buckley’s Obituary for Goldwater:

    Barry Goldwater, R.I.P.

    What finally lodged in the memory of most Americans, to be sure, wasn’t so much Goldwater the Conservative as Goldwater the individualist. He was never entirely imprisoned by ideology. In the last dozen years he had disappointed friends by declining to support constitutional amendments that would have reversed some of the decisions taken by the Supreme Court, decisions he once vigorously opposed. The public’s final impression was of a thinker–or, better, a commentator–given primarily to home-grown attachments and individualized formulations. He said what he said because he was what he was. And then too there was his personal way of living and acting. He was venturesome, proud, determined, a bit of a daredevil.

    As Buckley observes what people most remember about Goldwater was who he was after he retired; someone quite different than who he was at the zenith of his career. He changed largely due to personal reasons, those “home-grown attachments,” which apparently mattered more to him than maintaining any sort of coherent governing philosophy toward the end of his life.

    Me? I guess I’m a Goldwater Republican but of the 1964 variety. And also a George Washington Republican, as I also find it self-apparent that you can’t maintain self-government as a form of public administration unless you can govern yourself individually. Self-government, and ultimately liberty, depends upon morality. That’s what GW meant in that quote the 1964 Goldwater chose to use (and I’m not talking about a Bush).

    When you ignore the social issues by which you maintain the moral standards required for people to exercise liberty and self government you get the nanny state and the modern regulatory state.

    You get people who can’t live without a daddy. You get rulers. You get gun control. You get to where we are right now. The 1964 Goldwater understood that; apparently you couldn’t get him to stop warning the country about it.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  177. I wondered where nurse Ratchet came from.

    mg (31009b)

  178. 175. Many believe that the change in Barry’s viewpoint after his retirement had something to do with his new wife, who was his nurse.

    Comment by askeptic (2bb434) — 2/21/2013 @ 11:53 pm

    Could be. I remembered that almost everyone who knew him believed that he had changed due to entirely personal reasons. That’s why I decided to look up WFB’s obit for Goldwater. I recalled he had touched upon the reason for his change.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  179. The discussion of AuH2O, lead me to thinking about a 2nd Constitutional Congress, the course of human events tending to rhyme, the eventual need has become evident.

    Plainly we will need a Nominating Convention, to set the agenda, objectives and rules of the Congress. A ‘nice to have’ would be the delegates to the latter represent the population then extant by some measure(s).

    Deuteronomic rules of conduct would apply. Two strikes and you’re out. Agreement established by consensus or ultramajority.

    A sovereign, defensible territory would be required under martial law. Isle Royale comes to mind. Certainly the core of the project will have to be unalterably committed, hand-picked hardcases.

    Attendees of the Congress will be by invitation only, following oath of fealty to the Congress and Her purpose on penalty of death. Uninvited attendees will be subject to summary execution. The indigenous wolf population of Isle Royale would simplify the disposal of rubbish.

    My personal demands for the Congress are only cursory at this point. Rescinding the 17th Amendment, making language less subject to interpretation by means TBD, perhaps simply by a glossary and preamble, defining Treason more specifically and to include attempts to replace our Republic with an absolute Democracy, proscribing delegation of legislative responsibilty, possibly by ‘sunsetting’ bureaucratic edicts, etc.

    As to selection of delegates, lawyers, military officers of high rank should be severely restricted, as should delegates above a certain age, weight or secular professional education.

    Were I honored to be a member of the Nomination Convention I am duty bound to reveal I’d blackball Milhouse.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  180. Re: Goldwater.

    I spend a lot of time thinking about what makes people tick but I’m definitely an amateur when it comes to understanding them. Still, it seems to me that Arizona politicians like Goldwater and McCain are more independent and maverick-y in their views than most. I always wondered if it comes from Arizona’s rugged individualist ethos or its Wild West days. Maybe Icy knows.

    happyfeet, is it possible you’re frustrated trying to make the GOP fit your Libertarian beliefs? Libertarians have interests in common with both the Republicans and the Democrats but, as a rule, they are marginalized by both Parties. I can see how that would be frustrating for people who want to actually have an impact on politics and policy, especially at the national level.

    You might be happier in the long run.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  181. BTW, Spains’ federal deficit has broken above 10% per.

    But for Bennie, there go we.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  182. You might be happier in the long run actually being a Libertarian.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  183. I already said I’m not a Republican no mores. No sense in being a Libertarian though that is not time and energy well spent. I believe in individual liberty and limited government. And particularly so when we live in such a broke and declining little joke of a country. Done and done.

    But politics is just a wee part of it anymore. Team R doesn’t seem to comprehend that it is rapidly becoming something so vile that it’s increasingly socially and professionally untenable to associate yourself with those ones.

    They’re in terrible denial of where they stand, and the consequences of this for an America in which fascism is ascendant are very very scary.

    happyfeet (acd614)

  184. What in the hell is this?

    What in the hell is going on here?

    Dustin (73fead)

  185. So you’ve decided to become our resident critic?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  186. This reeks of Homeland Security money Mr. Dustin. They’re obsessed with this idea that anti-government Americans are gonna need to be thinned out in the near future.

    I think it’s mostly cause they don’t have a whole lot else to do with their time and money.

    happyfeet (acd614)

  187. Do we have a problem with DHS personnel being gunned down by the armies of pregnant women and cute five year olds?

    Also, I don’t buy into the infowars type conspiracy theories, but DHS is buying a ridiculous amount of ammunition. What for?

    Maybe feets is right and they are just spending money to spend money, but couldn’t they build something and name it after Murtha as usual?

    Dustin (73fead)

  188. DRJ I’m not a “resident critic” and there’s not even an “our” anymore cause of the things that fall apart when the center cannot hold, they are falling apart, cause the center is not holding.

    What is “our” Republican party? The porky porky chris christie one

    the accomodationist boehner one

    the susan b. anthony paul ryan one?

    And who among us is not a “resident critic” of Team R?

    Maybe Mr. daley, but he’s special.

    As the Republican party breaks further and further into dysfunctional factions and seething impotence it’s very very important that a diversity of voices be heard I think. Ok I volunteer.

    happyfeet (acd614)

  189. 184. The idea, contra McCrystal, is to eliminate the hesitation to shoot civilians, already known to be present and assumed hostile.

    I’ve already developed a rule, shoot any congregation in military uniform within several hundred yards of my home.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  190. There is a distinction between the leadership, ‘who lack all conviction’ and the rank and file,
    ‘who are full of passionate intensity’

    narciso (3fec35)

  191. ==Which Goldwater, The socially conservative Goldwater who ran in 1964?
    Or the later Goldwater who reversed many of his positions after he retired from the Senate?==

    Oh I guess I mean the western-bred indivdual liberty loving renaissance man Goldwater who drew in and inspired countless people, including freedom loving young people to the conservative movement. I mean the Barry Goldwater whose candidacy jump-started the political rise of Reagan whose delivery of the A Time for Choosing speech in support of Goldwater and conservatism is one of the best and most honest political speeches I’ve ever heard–and is the speech which helped position RR to later win the presidency. And also I mean the rugged opinionated statesman Goldwater who made up his own mind based on his experiences and observations, voted his conscience and throughout his life always called a spade a spade including when he decried and warned about the dangerous overbearing influence of religion on all politics not just in America. The Goldwater who grew with the times and whose thinking appeared to reflect reality and not sclerotic mindless futile zealotry. The Goldwater who fully particpated in society outside of Washington and so understood the ebb and flow and trends of national circumstances more than most lifer pols– and horrors! even found a few of his positions had evolved over time while never losing sight of his deep conservative roots. I mean the Goldwater who was called “an extremist” in his day because of his conservatism, but is apparently now not considered conservative enough by some on the right today to be given his due or to be taken seriously as the fsther of what used to be considered Conservatism or what was once understood to be how one might choose to live a conservative way of life.

    elissa (30ddde)

  192. 187. I hesitate to appear alarmist, yelling fire in the theatre, so here’s some moderation.

    Judging from the little I’ve seen of the DHS, one won’t have to be a crack shot to repel a few at a time.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  193. things are moving very quickly now Mr, narciso

    as America plunges into an irreversible fiscal vortex

    the whole durned checkerboard gets tilted in favor of fascism dependence and authoritarianism

    and you know what I say about that?

    Yikes!

    happyfeet (acd614)

  194. *Mr.* narciso I mean

    happyfeet (acd614)

  195. No, because his subsequent behavior, is out of character with his previous one, I don’t blame him, in part, after the savaging he took in ’64,
    something we didn’t see again for another forty plus years. It is too pat to attack the Moral Majority, for all it’s foibles, when all of the institutions are being ‘blitzkrieged’

    narciso (3fec35)

  196. DRJ–nothing personal intended, but I think despite their both being from AZ and “mavricky”, lumping Goldwater’s politics and accomplishments and thought processes along in with opportunistic McCain’s is not a fair comparison at all.

    elissa (30ddde)

  197. By “our,” I meant Patterico.com — not the Republican Party.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  198. And it’s not fascism, pikachu, it’s the brand new Chavez flavored marxism south of the border.

    narciso (3fec35)

  199. well again no

    I am kinda critical of Angry Bob though cause of him is just gonna stand there when the fascists come to put people on trains to where he will let them effing choke and die.

    No Angry Bob that would be the Wrong Choice.

    happyfeet (acd614)

  200. elissa,

    I don’t think their policies are the same but I see similarities in their willingness to be independent. I also see similarities in LBJ’s, Rick Perry’s and George W. Bush’s larger-than-life personas — a common feature of Texans, whether they are from the left, right or middle.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  201. it’s fascism when purportedly independent propaganda sluts fall into lockstep with an autocratic regime I think Mr. narciso

    at least it’s every bit as frightening

    happyfeet (acd614)

  202. Sorry if I misunderstood what you were getting at there, DRJ. I took it as an untypical of you broad stereotyping– like some people say all politicians from Illinois are crooked. Yeah, most are, but not all. :)

    elissa (30ddde)

  203. What is striking is how his ‘maverick’ path, almost entirely conforms to the left template, from no drilling in ANWR, to vapors over Gitmo,
    to instant acceptance of the Tarp, to arming the Moslem Brotherhood’s affiliates,

    narciso (3fec35)

  204. Thank you Mr. Feets. My mother recognized that in me too, but she passed many years back so not many people tell me that anymore.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  205. plus he shares national soros radio’s hyper-extreme histrionic angst about performance-enhancing drugs and nutritional supplements

    happyfeet (acd614)

  206. you are welcome Mr. daley

    your mom was a very perspicacious lady

    happyfeet (acd614)

  207. Well Oscar Pastorious, eleventy,??, OT, the lead detective seems to be getting the Fuhrman treatment,

    narciso (3fec35)

  208. Or the later Goldwater who reversed many of his positions after he retired from the Senate?

    Generally, a larger number of people become more conservative as they grow older compared with those who move in the other direction. I originally wondered if some of Goldwater’s attitudes later in life reflected his dealing with situations similar to that of Dick and Lynn Cheney, referring to their daughter being homosexual. I had heard rumors that Goldwater’s son (who penned the article below) was gay or bisexual, so I originally thought that might have pushed the father left.

    But I suspect it actually is a manifestation of Goldwater’s left-leaning impulses getting the better of him, certainly since the Republican Party he was dealing with before his death in 1998 has to be placed in the context of the US being far more liberal in the 1990s than in the 1960s. Now in 2013, this society is even more “progressive.” IOW, it was one thing to have left-leaning sentiments over 50 years ago, it’s a totally different matter to feel that way today.

    I think Goldwater’s daughter and his granddaughter, to be wailing about social liberalism being somehow threatened in light of today’s trends (ie, where young girls can get an abortion without parental consent, where public schools happily hand out birth control but not aspirin, where GLBT is becoming almost an honor and privilege, where Nanny State-ism is alive and well—and all from the left), would be disingenuous or delusional if they’d claim their biases in the 21st century are somehow moderate or of the right. It says more about how liberal they are if they truly believe today’s Republican Party is too rightwing or major elements in it are too conservative.

    Based on the following, I think even Goldwater’s son wasn’t being honest with himself by either downplaying or ignoring the left-leaning impulses of his father.

    huffingtonpost.com, Barry Goldwater Jr, October 2008:

    The Goldwater name carries with it the standard of modern conservatism and has shaped the Republican Party for decades, waving proudly and with the dedication my father brought to everything in his life. However, that standard recently has been hijacked and used without any grounding in reality.

    Being Barry Goldwater’s son and living in Arizona, one would assume that I would be voting for our state’s senator, John McCain. Well, I am. The decision truly is a no-brainer.

    In a previous article, my niece CC implied that the Goldwater family would support Obama. I don’t resent my niece’s beliefs, she is after all entitled to the freedom of choice we all enjoy as Americans — however, I do resent what she has done. When she speaks, she should speak for herself and not imply that she is a representative or spokesperson for the Goldwater name. When I speak, I represent my own thinking and never imply I speak for anyone else.

    Before one can even attempt to speak for the reputation and beliefs of the Goldwater family, it might be helpful to re-read the Conscience of a Conservative that Barry Goldwater, Sr. wrote and be reminded of the principles of what it means to be a Goldwater conservative. My niece owes the family that at least if she thinks her public endorsement is so important.

    Barry Goldwater was one of the icons of the Republican Party and, yes, would be unhappy with many of the recent failures from within. I speak about this all the time and how mad I am that Republicans have lost their way. However, we do not find our way back by sheepishly going over to the other side. My father worked to rebuild the party in 1964 by taking it back from the liberal Establishment. He would work to do the same thing today.

    theatlantic.com, September 2012:

    CC’s critique of the GOP, one her grandfather began to articulate late in his life as well, is a libertarian one. “He was very vocal about his fear of people like the late Jerry Falwell and the religious right taking over the party,” she said. “He was concerned about the change in civil liberties and women’s rights.” In fact, Barry Goldwater spent much of his political retirement as a thorn in the side of the mainstream GOP. He said the party had been taken over by “kooks” and “extremists”; he called for gays to be allowed to serve in the military, saying, “You don’t need to be straight to fight and die for your country. You just need to shoot straight”; he even endorsed a Democrat in an Arizona congressional race.

    A few weeks ago, CC and her mother Joanne Goldwater, Barry Goldwater’s eldest child, endorsed Richard Carmona, the Democratic candidate for Barry Goldwater’s onetime U.S. Senate seat, saying he best represented Barry Goldwater’s integrity and support for abortion rights. It’s safe to say Democrats haven’t rushed to embrace Barry Goldwater in return, however. His name is most commonly used to invoke a conservatism so right-wing voters won’t support it, as when Obama adviser David Plouffe told the New York Times that Romney was “the most conservative nominee that they’ve had going back to Goldwater, and that “one of the key issues in the campaign is to make sure people know that.”

    ^ Joanne and CC reflect X percent of the population (along with people like happyfeet), and observers — or manipulators — like David Plouffe gladly, contentedly know that. That’s why I believe that America is destined to become a variation of France, Argentina and Mexico, and there’s no turning back.

    Mark (767b53)

  209. elissa,

    I guess I am stereotyping here but I think the culture we come from affects how we look at things, how we view ourselves, and thus how we act. People who come from big cities are different than people who live in rural areas, and people who move a lot are different than people who lived in one place all their lives.

    It’s silly for me to generalize like this because I know there are so many variables involved in what makes people tick. Nevertheless, I’m always amazed at how much geography affects who we are.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  210. And who among us is not a “resident critic” of Team R?

    But you perceive parts of it as being too conservative, while others see it as being too liberal, or moderate, or squishy.

    Context is important, and I’d say in the 21st century to deem “Team R” as being too rightwing (or threatened the way that Barry Goldwater was ticked off about) is analogous to a person in, say, the 1950s claiming America was too liberal—ie, when anti-lynching legislation was controversial, when Hollywood ostracized a famous actress for having a child out of wedlock, when a late-night talk-show host saying “water closet” on TV raised eyebrows and the threat of being censored, when blatant forms of bigotry and discrimination were practiced legally and socially.

    Mark (767b53)

  211. i have to hurry if I’m a get a breakfast burrito Mr. Mark

    happyfeet (acd614)

  212. Mark,

    Frankly, I don’t recall social issues being important when I was growing up in the 1950′s because everyone agreed on basic family values. It wasn’t until the ’60′s (the ’70′s where I live) that social issues became important. Isn’t it possible that Goldwater was always more libertarian on social issues than you realized, but it wasn’t apparent until the 1960′s and 1970′s?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  213. happyfeet,

    You know, if Megan McArdle is right, the real culture war isn’t between social conservatives and social liberals. It’s between liberal elites who demand people conform to their authoritarian ideas of what society needs. Conservatives are the enemy, not because of what they believe but because they won’t conform and thus represent a threat to elite authority.

    If that’s true, and I think it is, then abdicating social issues won’t solve this war. Nothing short of total abdication by conservatives on all issues will satisfy the liberal elites, because they need the masses to conform and be dominated.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  214. Sorry. My second sentence should have begun:

    “It’s between conservatives and liberal elites …”

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  215. “I guess I am stereotyping here but I think the culture we come from affects how we look at things, how we view ourselves, and thus how we act. People who come from big cities are different than people who live in rural areas, and people who move a lot are different than people who lived in one place all their lives.”

    DRJ – Using a broad brush, I completely agree. I grew up and went to school in the Northeast and moved to the Midwest more than 30 years ago. People are very different here than in New York, especially outside Chicago. One job I had for many years for a large corporation involved managing people at subsidiaries scattered in many different states. The personality types, work ethic, sense of entitlement, etc., did indeed vary rural versus urban and by region. The areas with which I had the most consistent difficulty were California and the Northeast. People from Texas and the Heartland were a pleasure to work with.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  216. Isn’t it possible that Goldwater was always more libertarian on social issues than you realized, but it wasn’t apparent until the 1960′s and 1970′s?

    DRJ, I admit it was only a hunch on my part that Goldwater’s left-leaning impulses had gotten the better of him later in life. But it was only a hunch. Now, based on the following, I think my hunch was correct:

    claremont.org:

    Goldwater’s 1964 campaign actually shaped the social conservatism of the modern Republican Party in at least three crucial respects: his view of human nature and the American republic; his concern over the moral deterioration of American society; and his stand on several key policy questions.

    In his speech accepting the 1964 presidential nomination, Goldwater extolled “freedom under a government limited by the laws of nature and of nature’s God.” He warned that:

    “…those who elevate the state and downgrade the citizen must see ultimately a world in which earthly power can be substituted for Divine Will, and this Nation was founded upon the rejection of that notion and upon the acceptance of God as the author of freedom.”

    Goldwater decried the general moral decline of the time. On the campaign trail, he asked, “What’s happening to us? What’s happening to our America?” His campaign ran several television spots on this theme, which he called simply the “moral issue.” In one commercial an announcer shouts, “Graft! Swindle! Juvenile delinquency! Crime! Riots!” before Goldwater proclaims: “Let this generation of Americans set a standard of responsibility that will inspire the world.”

    Another spot linked the corruption of government officials to moral deterioration. Goldwater exclaims, “Americans everywhere are indignant about the moral decay in Washington,” while the narrator calls on voters to “put conscience back in government.” A third advertisement asked “What has happened to our America? We build libraries and galleries to hold the world’s greatest treasury of art—and we permit the world’s greatest collection of smut to be freely available anywhere.”

    A fourth featured Goldwater speaking directly into the camera:

    “Is moral responsibility out of style? Our papers and our newsreels and yes, our own observations, tell us that immorality surrounds us as never before. We as a nation are not far from the kind of moral decay that has brought on the fall of other nations and people…. [The] philosophy of something for nothing, [the] cult of individual and governmental irresponsibility, is an insidious cancer that will destroy us unless we recognize it and root it out now.”

    Goldwater made morality the centerpiece of a 30-minute televised address that aired on CBS on October 20, 1964. After citing George Washington’s dictum, “‘Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports,’” Goldwater said, “The moral fiber of the American people is beset by rot and decay,” and pledged “every effort to a reconstruction of reverence and moral strength.”

    Nor did he discuss these themes in outline only. He and his party took a socially conservative stand on a number of policy issues. The 1964 GOP platform endorsed a constitutional amendment to overturn the Supreme Court’s school-prayer decisions and to permit voluntary school prayer. In his CBS televised address, Goldwater asked, “Is this the time in our nation’s history for our Federal Government to ban Almighty God from our classrooms?” He answered: “Ours is both a religious and a free people. Over years past we have encountered no difficulty in absorbing that religious character into our state institutions, while at the same time preserving religious liberty and separation of church and state.”

    Goldwater pointed out that his Democratic opponents ignored far more than just school prayer: “you will search in vain for any reference to God or religion in the Democratic platform.” The Republican platform called for enactment of legislation “to curb the flow through the mails of obscene materials”; it criticized the Democratic administration and Congress for resisting tuition tax credits; and, not least, it emphasized the rise in crime as a moral issue, not merely a sociological one.

    The Conscience of a Conservative devoted an entire chapter to education, anticipating its importance in the eyes of social conservatives. Goldwater paraphrased Dorothy Sayers when he wrote that Americans must “recapture the lost art of learning.” He argued that:

    “…in our attempt to make education ‘fun,’ we have neglected the academic disciplines that develop sound minds and are conducive to sound characters…. We have forgotten that the proper function of the school is to transmit the cultural heritage of one generation to the next generation.”

    Goldwater’s move away from social conservatism came only in the twilight of his Senate career — and more starkly after he had left the Senate in 1987. Throughout the 1970s, he opposed abortion on demand and taxpayer funding of abortions. (He wavered on a constitutional amendment restricting abortion.) In 1980, in the midst of his last and most difficult Senate race, he endorsed the Human Life Amendment. Only in his final term did he adopt a pro-choice position, voting in 1983 against a constitutional amendment that would have reversed Roe v. Wade and returned legislative authority over abortion to the states.

    In 1984, he reversed his 1964 position by voting against a constitutional amendment to restore voluntary prayer to public schools. As late as 1985 he opposed “gay rights” legislation. Only in 1993, six years after leaving the Senate, did he change his view.

    He also had personal reasons: one daughter and three granddaughters of his had had abortions; and a grandson and a grandniece were homosexual. In 1937, his wife, Peggy, had become a founding member of Planned Parenthood of Arizona, and the couple remained active in the organization throughout Goldwater’s Senate career. Though he initially rejected Planned Parenthood’s position on abortion, his long association with the group would ultimately make a convert of him. For Goldwater, private considerations like these sometimes trumped abstract philosophy.

    The point that I’ve been making, and which Elissa seemed bothered about, is that most humans — if not all — have a variety of ideological impulses in the nooks and crannies of their mind. Those include both liberal and conservative biases.

    Even more so, my suspicion that Goldwater started to be overtaken by his left-leaning emotions as he grew older wasn’t such a stretch. After all, for anyone to be groaning about the Republican Party becoming too rightwing (becoming threatened by the boogeyman of cultural conservatism) in the context of the late 1900s, or certainly the early 21st century, would have to be quite beholden to liberal sentiments.

    Mark (767b53)

  217. ==Who was largely responsible for the 1964 Republican platform which contained this:

    Much of today’s moral decline and drift—much of the prevailing preoccupation with physical and material comforts of life—much of today’s crass political appeals to the appetites of the citizenry—can be traced to a leadership grown demagogic and materialistic through indifference to national ideals founded in devoutly held religious faith. The Republican Party seeks not to renounce this heritage of faith and high purpose; rather, we are determined to reaffirm and reapply it.==

    Steve57- I’m happy you posted that and here’s where I think we differ. I personally believe that nothing in Goldwater’s later statesman years or in his healthy and ever evolving thinking would have made it impossible or uncomfortable for him to have used or written those exact same words on the final day of his life. There is quite a difference between reaffirming and re-applying a “heritage of faith” and freedom and high purpose (in the tradition of the founding fathers and Lincoln)– and his concerns during his time about the effects of demagogues religious or otherwise, whom he believed did not have the right to try to buy or dictate policy for all citizens.

    elissa (30ddde)

  218. Generalities are great, as long as individual differences are allowed for.

    Conservatives are the enemy, not because of what they believe but because they won’t conform and thus represent a threat to elite authority.
    If that’s true, and I think it is, then abdicating social issues won’t solve this war. Nothing short of total abdication by conservatives on all issues will satisfy the liberal elites, because they need the masses to conform and be dominated.
    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b)

    I think this is true. For example, for many the issue of SSM is not limited to anti-discrimination by making legal treatment of SS couples the same as heterosexual married couples (or heterosexaul non-married couples, in terms of some employee benefits and such), but the demand that people believe SSM is essentially identical/equivalent to heterosexual marriage.
    The problem is fundamentally irresolvable logically. One can believe SSM and hetero is equivalent, or one doesn’t. You can’t have a situation where everybody agrees to some neutral understanding, unless that agreement is to allow for disagreement. If I think SSM is not equivalent to hetero, “I don’t have to have one” as they say, but I also do not demand that a SS couple say they agree with me or I will ostracize them as “heterophobes”. But many will say that if one does not agree that SSM is just fine, that such a person is a bigot and a “homophobe”. It is the so-called “liberal” who is demanding PC thought orthodoxy.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  219. Thanks, Mark, and I agree with you that none of us are ideologically pure. In fact, fascinating contradictions may be what makes us human.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  220. With age should come wisdom, hence perhaps “rounding off rough edges”. But with age can also come fatigue and “just not wanting to deal with things anymore”.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  221. I have a little of that fatigue after last November.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  222. In some ways abortion will likely always be among the most difficult and contentious issues, because what is at stake, at least for “one side” of the disagreement, is not simply a difference of opinion among two people, but a difference with impact on a third party. If a person thinks the developing child in utero is indeed a child, it should be absurd to expect that person to idly stand by as if the decision to have an abortion was simply the decision of one person.
    My limited understanding of Roe and later Casey is that the SCOTUS punted on the question as to whether the fetus was a “person” or not, that the question was “above their pay scale”, yet they found a way to make abortion legal. From one perspective what they did was try to tell everybody that they had to believe that the fetus was not a person after all, and if not believe it, at least act like they did.

    It logically should not be surprising that it does not work to tell someone who thinks that abortion is murder to pretend that it is not.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  223. and I agree with you that none of us are ideologically pure.

    What spooks me — and the reason I’m not being outright sarcastic when I say that if we in the US won’t go to France (or Mexico, or Argentina, or Greece), then France, etc, will come to us — is because I find that I myself am growing increasingly desensitized (or dumbed down) by issues and controversies that would have shocked or alarmed me several years ago.

    BTW, when people say that economics are separate from culture, and believe that issues like household income and unemployment — and education — are somehow floating off in their own magical world, I wonder if they ever consider how much tougher it will be for a society to have a sound economy when the basic unit of the family (namely, socio-cultural matters) is in turmoil or roiled by dysfunction?

    Mark (767b53)

  224. “With age should come wisdom, hence perhaps “rounding off rough edges”. But with age can also come fatigue and “just not wanting to deal with things anymore”.”

    MD in Philly – Heh. I frequently find myself in the car at night when Mark Levin’s radio show is on. Just a few minutes of his grating voice, reminding me of how he worked for Reagan in the 1980s, his relentless negativity even though he is an incredibly smart person, usually causes me to change the station. If I want to get angry I can just turn on any network news, CNN or MSNBC, which is one reason I pretty much don’t watch TV anymore.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  225. daley- I must say that I do not enjoy listening to him either, no matter how smart he may be.

    And he can’t be that smart, as once I heard him criticize the host of this noteworthy site. Disagreement is fine, abuse is unnecessary, at least when it comes to PP>

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  226. ==The point that I’ve been making, and which Elissa seemed bothered about, is that most humans — if not all — have a variety of ideological impulses in the nooks and crannies of their mind. Those include both liberal and conservative biases.==

    No Mark. That is not what bothers me–at all. I believe many humans are quite interesting and complex and often riven by inner intellectual conflict. I appreciate that in individuals just as I pine for a healthy two party system to play against itself. What bothers me is that if you truly believe as you say you do, that all humans have “a variety of ideological impulses in the nooks and crannies of their mind that include both liberal and conservative biases.”, then why do you spend so damn much time and bandwith “wondering” and trying to pigeonhole everybody else, attempting to guess their motives, “outing” their perceived impulses and biases and on some unknown basis “channeling” what they probably think? This is a rhetorical question by the way, because I sort of doubt you even grasp what I am saying.

    elissa (30ddde)

  227. elissa @217, yes we do differ. He couldn’t have written this after 1986:

    Much of today’s moral decline and drift—much of the prevailing preoccupation with physical and material comforts of life—much of today’s crass political appeals to the appetites of the citizenry—can be traced to a leadership grown demagogic and materialistic through indifference to national ideals founded in devoutly held religious faith.

    Because he adopted positions that are the same as the present day liberals which as we are seeing are not only indifferent to a devoutly held religious faith but actively hostile to it.

    In what way were Goldwater’s later socio-political views different from those of the “liberal elites who demand people conform to their authoritarian ideas of what society needs” that DRJ mentions in #213?

    Liberals loved Goldwater in his later years precisely because he provided them cover. “See, even ‘Mr. Conservative’ has adopted our views which require an all-powerful centralized regulatory state in order for us to impose them on an unwilling society.”

    Is that not where we are now?

    Steve57 (60a887)

  228. BTW, 7th Circuit affirms Judge Posner’s decision re CCW in IL.
    http://www.saf.org/viewpr-new.asp?id=423
    180-days boys, and the clock’s been ticking for 60 of them!

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  229. Washington state had a proposal that would have allowed the police into homes to inspect weapons, something the sponsors apparently didn’t bother to read.

    I don’t get the problem with this. The inspector comes, you show him the weapon and how it’s stored, and he goes away. How is it different from the annual boiler inspection that cities require, at least around here?

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  230. That’s just BS Steve. There was never a moment in his life that Goldwater adopted a view that that would have required an all-powerful centralized regulatory state to inpose them on an unwilling society. Yes he had views on industrial pollution and other affronts to nature by irresponsible municipalities and corporations which many conservatives agree with both then and now.

    Is there anyone in recent past years or currently in politics who meets your exacting standards? If so, who? If not, then why are we even talking about it?

    elissa (30ddde)

  231. Barry Goldwater’s Left Turn

    Goldwater says that having openly gay relatives doesn’t influence his beliefs, which are animated by libertarian principles that government should stay out of people’s private lives.

    Goldwater says that having openly gay relatives doesn’t influence his beliefs, which are animated by libertarian principles that government should stay out of people’s private lives.

    “He’s pretty secure in feeling that discriminating against gays is constitutionally wrong,” says Goldwater’s gay grandson, Ty Ross, a Scottsdale, Ariz., artisan who says he is close to his grandfather (whom he calls “Paka”) and has even brought boyfriends to meet him.

    It takes leviathan to impose Barry Goldwater’s “libertarian: beliefs on people, as we are seeing predictably play out. His unthought-out position that the government should stay out of people’s lives requires government to intrude into people’s lives as a matter of enforcement.

    The social conservative of 1964 understood that. Later he forgot. Now we are seeing the natural progression. He was so worried about the religious right imposing its morality on people, he threw in with the secular left and even helped them impose there morality on people.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  232. Milhouse,

    Inspections exist to protect the community from things like unsafe buildings/construction and unsafe food providers, especially in public places. This is a different situation to me because people generally have the right to own a gun and the right to be free from government intrusion in their homes.

    Would you acquiesce if the government decided to come to our homes to inspect our books and computers — to make sure we aren’t researching dangerous topics? Would you agree that the government should be able to inspect our home safe or safety deposit box to verify we don’t keep weapons?

    I’m sure many people might acquiesce to significant intrusions, especially after 9/11. (The TSA is proof of that.) But it doesn’t make those intrusions consistent with the notion that there are limits on how intrusive the government can be.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  233. Also, Milhouse, what if the inspector doesn’t approve of how you store your gun, or that it’s not registered, or that you don’t have your paperwork done properly (according to him), or any number of other problems? Do you get to politely thank him for coming or do you get hauled before a court or some other government bureaucracy? My guess is the latter.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  234. then why do you spend so damn much time and bandwith “wondering” and trying to pigeonhole everybody else, attempting to guess their motives, “outing” their perceived impulses and biases and on some unknown basis “channeling” what they probably think?

    Actually, in the case of Goldwater — and thanks to the curiosity (or “wondering”) about him inspired by various posts here — I was able to guess what happened to him during the later years of his life. So the assumption that his ideological preferences hadn’t changed, but instead something else had changed, was not correct. If I had pigeonholed him, I wouldn’t have understood that, I wouldn’t have been able to figure out what, in fact, affected him well after the 1980s.

    Some have quipped that liberalism is a mental disorder. To that, perhaps a form of senility can be defined as what happens to a person formerly of the right (who therefore presumably has some common sense) who finds him or herself growing increasingly liberal (and, for example, isn’t living in the middle of today’s Sharia-crazed Middle East) towards his twilight years.

    Mark (767b53)

  235. Stonewall was not until 1969. As DRJ accurately pointed out almost no one was even talking about or thinking about social issues before then. The Republican platform in 1964 certainly was not. So why do you think you know with such certainty that Goldwater fell in with the wrong crowd and that his idea that government should stay out of people’s personal lives was a later pivot, rather than his strong lifetime libertarian/conservative value?

    elissa (30ddde)

  236. I guess I lean more toward Rush and occasionally Beck by presentation, then again they have inflicted Rich Sanchez, on our drive time radio, that’s something against the Vienna and Geneva conventions,

    narciso (3fec35)

  237. elissa, how do you keep government out of people’s lives when you espouse an anti-discriminatory regulatory scheme that requires government to intrude into people’s lives?

    That’s the paradox libertarians don’t get; their social views require a big government to alter society to fit their tastes. And the later Barry Goldwater actively moved this country toward the all-powerful regulatory state we have now (from the same article above):

    At 85, after a life in politics spanning five decades (he retired from the Senate in 1987), Mr. Conservative has found himself an unlikely new career: as a gay rights activist. While that’s not his sole pursuit – he returned to Capitol Hill yesterday to testify in favor of scenic overflights of the Grand Canyon – in recent years he’s championed homosexuals serving in the military and has worked locally to stop businesses in Phoenix from hiring on the basis of sexual orientation. This month he signed on as honorary co-chairman of a drive to pass a federal law preventing job discrimination against homosexuals.

    Thanks to Barry Goldwater businesses now have to choose between their 1st Amendment right to the free exercise of religion and paying for Sandra Fluke’s contraceptives and abortifacients.

    Barry Goldwater the “libertarian” didn’t understand the basic contradiction of libertarianism. Most libertarians don’t get it. As demonstrated by his easy resort to federal laws to regulate business hiring practices in the name of government staying out of people’s lives.

    There is no difference in substance between Barry Goldwater’s later positions and Barack Obama’s. It’s only a matter of degree. But the fact is if you think using the full force of the federal government is the best way to engineer social change for the better, then you bloody well believe in using the federal government as a force for social engineering.

    He may not have know what he was doing, as his contradictory statements indicate, but he put his stamp of approval on the intrusive, all-powerful regulatory state.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  238. Mark and elissa,

    I know I will regret inserting myself into this discussion because (1) I don’t have much to add, and (2) neither of you needs me to moderate. Nevertheless, Mark:

    I have the feeling that elissa isn’t talking about you psychoanalyzing public figures as much as your occasional tendency to analyze the motivations of Patterico.com commenters. It seems a little like a personal attack.

    I guess the reason I’m saying this (against my better judgment) is that I do it, too. My motives are to try to understand where people are coming from so I can better understand what they think, but I fear it comes across as an attack. I regret that and apologize, especially to happyfeet.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  239. The Republican platform in 1964 certainly was not.

    The Republican Platform of 1964 was all about social issues, elissa.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  240. I think most of the radio talkers are unlistenable on a regular basis. I do occasionaly like to hear a rerun of a program if someone I trust recommends it as having been a particularly good one.

    elissa (30ddde)

  241. It sounds pretty libertarian to me, but with a recognition of God that current Libertarians might not include.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  242. You see in Williamson’s example, what a total ordeal it is to be publicly for self defense, much less any other social issue, an opinion about prop #8, earned a ‘hanging in effigy’ and a burning of a church, for one political figure, and no end of death threats.

    narciso (3fec35)

  243. ==Thanks to Barry Goldwater businesses now have to choose between their 1st Amendment right to the free exercise of religion and paying for Sandra Fluke’s contraceptives and abortifacients.==

    O yeah. Goldwater and Sandra Fluke. A complementary duo that readily comes to mind to everybody. Not.

    elissa (30ddde)

  244. As DRJ accurately pointed out almost no one was even talking about or thinking about social issues before then. The Republican platform in 1964 certainly was not.

    You mean the platform was NOT talking or thinking about social issues, or do you mean it was? If the former, huh? You mention about my using so much “damn…bandwidth” in this forum — and, yep, that I do on occasion — but you then chose to either overlook or inadvertently missed this.

    Mark (767b53)

  245. This is what prochoice has come to mean, absolute endorsement and financing of birth control and abortion, come to think of it, that was the Huxleyan view that Holdren held thirty years ago,

    narciso (3fec35)

  246. “I don’t get the problem with this. The inspector comes, you show him the weapon and how it’s stored, and he goes away. How is it different from the annual boiler inspection that cities require, at least around here?”

    “No, I’m not letting you in.”
    “You’re under arrest for refusing to deny me in your home according to the law” Do you understand how huge of a violation against the 4th this is?

    Take it in another scenario.

    “Sir, we need to check your home for material that may be dangerous to you and the community.”
    “No. Get a warrant.”
    “You’re arrest for endangering other people. We’re coming in anyways.”

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated

    SHALL NOT BE VIOLATED

    Do you understand that? Naturally, no.

    Kaitian (054e80)

  247. I have the feeling that elissa isn’t talking about you psychoanalyzing public figures as much as your occasional tendency to analyze the motivations of Patterico.com commenters

    But she seemed resentful that my characterizing Goldwater as turning left later in life was somehow inaccurate or unfair. To me, it’s just stating reality. It’s not too different from saying: the sun is hot, the South Pole is cold.

    As for happyfeet — and as I mentioned earlier to him — he’s merely a reflection of people who lean right (mainly on economic issues) and also lean left on social ones. Again, that’s like saying: the sun is hot, the South Pole is cold. It’s just basic reality, no more, no less.

    Mark (767b53)

  248. no apology needed I need to find time to make sure I get all the McArdle piece and then I can respond about the culture wars but I’m working with british people today and god help me

    they are so tedious and not a one of them sees the forest for the tedious bloody trees

    I wonder how maybee endures them go mad I would

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  249. Well, not all about social issues, natch. They had to address other issues or it wouldn’t have been a well rounded platform.

    Republican Party Platform of 1964

    I find this part ironic:

    Year after year, in the name of benevolence, these leaders have sought the enlargement of Federal power. Year after year, in the guise of concern for others, they have lavishly expended the resources of their fellow citizens. And year after year freedom, diversity and individual, local and state responsibility have given way to regimentation, conformity and subservience to central power.

    Later in life Barry Goldwater adopted exactly the liberal premises that the left would use “in the name of benevolence” to expand Federal power.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  250. =At 85, after a life in politics spanning five decades (he retired from the Senate in 1987), Mr. Conservative has found himself an unlikely new career: as a gay rights activist. While that’s not his sole pursuit – he returned to Capitol Hill yesterday to testify in favor of scenic overflights of the Grand Canyon – in recent years he’s championed homosexuals serving in the military and has worked locally to stop businesses in Phoenix from hiring on the basis of sexual orientation. This month he signed on as honorary co-chairman of a drive to pass a federal law preventing job discrimination against homosexuals.==

    Since you posted it is there is something here that you believe amplifies your point? Something that you find deeply disturbing and morally objectionable, Steve? You have a problem with a federal law preventing job discrimination against gays? Really?

    elissa (30ddde)

  251. ==But she seemed resentful that my characterizing Goldwater as turning left later in life was somehow inaccurate or unfair. To me, it’s just stating reality. ==

    That’s because to me it is innacurate and unfair and not stating reality.

    Let’s leave this, now, shall we?

    elissa (30ddde)

  252. Barry Goldwater the “libertarian” didn’t understand the basic contradiction of libertarianism. Most libertarians don’t get it.

    I’m not being glib when I theorize that as the human mind ages, certain intrinsic changes occur within it, including political biases. Whether Goldwater was or wasn’t libertarian in the 1960s, or later, or before — or was or wasn’t a staunch conservative — I really believe he was affected by a political form of senility, in which common sense declines or becomes impaired.

    Mark (767b53)

  253. Barry was a Conservative Jeffersonian, in that he did believe that “the Government that Governs least, Governs best”.
    He would have been quite happy to emulate Coolidge, but with a Jacksonian foreign-policy using Pattonesque tactics – hit them hard with everything (E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G! – my best Gary Oldman), and never having to fight twice for the same piece of property.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  254. Or he just changed his mind on some issues. Most of the people who opposed segregation in the 1950′s and 1960′s changed their minds about it, and I don’t think they changed their minds because of senility.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  255. DRJ– as always is the case I am so glad you are contributung to this thread today. To carry your changing minds theme further, people also “changed their minds” about slavery which made the emancipation proc possible. Thankfully, sane people also “changed their minds” about miscegenation laws and women’s ability to vote.

    elissa (30ddde)

  256. This is the fundamental problem, those that started in the civil right community, took the same urgency and intensity to the anti war, the environment and other social relations; that is the template that is followed.

    narciso (3fec35)

  257. Most of the people who opposed segregation in the 1950′s and 1960′s changed their minds about it, and I don’t think they changed their minds because of senility.

    DRJ, I’m not sure you instead mean people who opposed integration decades ago and then changed their POV. But one way or the other, I’m reminded of the phrase that “a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged.”

    And so the harsh glare of reality — and not aging, or senility — can influence people as they grow older. But that’s why a larger percentage of people, as they mature, tend to start tilting right, not left. IOW, unless their common sense has been damaged, they’ll adjust their opinions more in one direction than the other.

    That the opposite apparently happened to Goldwater — and his expressing alarm about the boogeyman of cultural rightism (in the context of modern, libertine, “anything goes!” America), and not just limiting his rhetoric to, say, a case of a gay guy being overtly discriminated and harassed at the workplace (btw, was Goldwater even confronted with a specific instance of that?) — is why I theorize his common sense had grown weak towards his retirement years. Sort of like a “senior moment.”

    Mark (767b53)

  258. Goldwater was constantly being harassed in the workplace; but of course, they were “Dear Colleagues” – it is what Leftists do to Conservatives.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  259. 251. Since you posted it is there is something here that you believe amplifies your point? Something that you find deeply disturbing and morally objectionable, Steve? You have a problem with a federal law preventing job discrimination against gays? Really?

    Comment by elissa (30ddde) — 2/22/2013 @ 11:17 am

    I was hoping you’d go to the link; there’s a bit more to it:

    This month he signed on as honorary co-chairman of a drive to pass a federal law preventing job discrimination against homosexuals. The effort, dubbed Americans Against Discrimination, is being spearheaded by the Human Rights Campaign Fund, the influential gay lobbying organization.

    The big thing is to make this country, along with every other country in the world with a few exceptions, quit discriminating against people just because they’re gay,” Goldwater asserts. “You don’t have to agree with it, but they have a constitutional right to be gay. And that’s what brings me into it.”

    Some libertarian, huh? Who knew libertarianism was all about making not only this country but every other country conform to Barry Goldwater’s social views. Which apparently conform to those of the Human Rights Campaign. And the Human Rights Campaign had an agenda that went far beyond job discrimination. Even in 1987 when they organized their march on Washington they were demanding an end to discrimination in all areas of public accommodation, the kind of LGBT curriculum we see now in Kali, gay marriage, etc.

    So, elissa, just answer my question. Does achieving all of the above require a larger, more intrusive government or less?

    (Hint: I think Goldwater provides the answer.)

    Steve57 (60a887)

  260. By the way elissa, there is no federal law preventing job discrimination against gays. It’s permitted. I live in a state where there is no law against discriminating against gays.

    I’ve received no complaints regarding my treatment of people in any regard.

    Barry Goldwater was simply wrong in his later years when he abandoned both his social conservative and libertarian principles and decided to turn the Federal government loose to make them do what he thought they should.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  261. *…turn the Federal government loose on people to make them do…*

    Steve57 (60a887)

  262. I realize I’m sort of piling on, but there’s something I noticed about the Goldwater quote I used:

    The big thing is to make this country, along with every other country in the world with a few exceptions, quit discriminating against people just because they’re gay,” Goldwater asserts. “You don’t have to agree with it, but they have a constitutional right to be gay. And that’s what brings me into it.”

    Goldwater thought he had the right to make every other country, with a few exceptions, observe gay rights under the US Constitution?

    In 1964 he had a coherent philosophy. As he aged and adopted leftist impulses, less so.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  263. Well consider another issue, the death penalty, which the liberals have invoked the Baldus study, and international opinion, against it, but as Mark Steyn has pointed out, only certain international opinions,

    narciso (3fec35)

  264. “The big thing is to make this country, along with every other country in the world with a few exceptions…”

    But, this could also be read to say not that he wants to impose his (and our) vision of tolerance on other countries, but that he thinks we should join what already exists in other countries.

    It is not a finely crafted statement.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  265. Evidently Rep. Jordan’s demand for a plan to unwind the Fed’s balance sheet is creating anxiety in house.

    http://money.cnn.com/2013/02/22/news/economy/fed-future-losses/index.html?iid=Lead

    We’ve touched on this before, their balance sheet is worth somewhat less than nominal value because they won’t be able to sell much of the kitsch.

    So the placid among us can always say “Why worry, they haven’t enough scratch to run a gulag”. Well if we’re happing fretting what’s it to you?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  266. I’m so sorry that Barry Goldwater disappointed you to the extent that you are this riled and angry and ready to blame him for all sorts of ancillary stuff that happened later. I truly don’t know what else to say about that. That I was not old enough to have the honor of voting for Barry Goldwater for president is a regret of my life. Almost everything I’ve read about his early years appealed to me and nothing in his later life changed my appreciation and admiration for this incredible man. In fact, in some ways I respected him more because of his ferocious independence and love of the land.

    I asked above if you had any conservative political role models recent past or present to whom you can give an unqualifed Steve57 vote of confidence. You did not respond that I noticed. Does that mean you have none to offer up for our consideration? If there is someone you can give the seal of approval to, who is it? If not, then what does that say about your expectations?

    elissa (30ddde)

  267. 267. Thanks, I was in seventh grade and never paid Mr. Goldwater any mind. You’ve raised my awareness orders of magnitude.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  268. @askeptic
    but that he thinks we should join what (tolerance) already exists in other countries.
    It is not a finely crafted statement.

    You’re right, it is quite poorly crafted. I always thought that’s what he meant though. Dictatoring was never Barry’s style.

    elissa (30ddde)

  269. Well, I did vote for Barry – it was my first voting Presidential Election.
    As the joke went:
    If you vote for Goldwater, we’ll be fighting a war in Asia.
    Blame me: I voted for Barry, and damn, we were fighting a full fledged ground war within months.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  270. 267. I asked above if you had any conservative political role models recent past or present to whom you can give an unqualifed Steve57 vote of confidence. You did not respond that I noticed. Does that mean you have none to offer up for our consideration? If there is someone you can give the seal of approval to, who is it? If not, then what does that say about your expectations?

    Comment by elissa (30ddde) — 2/22/2013 @ 12:50 pm

    Let’s see. There’s Reagan, Duncan Hunter Sr., and Tom McClintock. It’s too early to tell about Duncan Hunter Jr.

    They are all going to disappoint; I don’t expect to agree with everyone all the time.

    I’m not riled or upset about Barry Goldwater. It’s just a fact; he abandoned his small government libertarian principles.

    Or perhaps you disagree.

    So, let me ask you again; what was libertarian about using the federal government to make this country , and every other country, conform to Barry Goldwater’s social views on gay rights?

    And does it require more government, or less government, to ensure society conforms to the HRC’s vision of equality for gays in terms of employment, accommodations, LGBT curriculum in schools, and that public and private institutions support parenting by gays?

    That was their agenda back when Goldwater was working with them.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  271. Just to be clear, I’m not asking if you think his views on gay rights were correct.

    Just what was libertarian about his approach to convincing his fellow citizens his views on gay rights and the Constitution were correct.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  272. “Or you can commit seppuku with a chainsaw. I really don’t care anymore. This is the end of my support for any liberal cause, because liberals have become anything but.”

    Well, that’s just f-ing stupid.

    libarbarian (803b96)

  273. ==So, let me ask you again; what was libertarian about using the federal government to make this country , and every other country, conform to Barry Goldwater’s social views on gay rights?==

    steve57–please read the short give and take between askeptic and me. I didn’t answer your question because I don’t subscribe to your question’s premise (interpretation) in the first place.

    ==I’m not riled or upset about Barry Goldwater. It’s just a fact; he abandoned his small government libertarian principles. Or perhaps you disagree.==

    Well yeah, I do strongly disagree as I thought was already pretty clear from my numerous entries on this thread. Do you think continued brow beating is going to cause me to have an epiphany and change my mind? :} Blog disagreements can be interesting and instructional in minor doses, but not when the tooing and froing between commenters start to look like the movie Groundhog Day. That’s where we are Steve.

    elissa (30ddde)

  274. Here’s a crazy thought, let’s treat people as people, not by which group they belong to, that was his vision back in ’64, when he pushed to
    open up the Phoenix airport, and other elements,

    narciso (3fec35)

  275. Well, that’s just f-ing stupid.

    Wow, what insight! Thank you for your in-depth analysis.

    Chuck Bartowski (11fb31)

  276. Mark:

    DRJ, I’m not sure you instead mean people who opposed integration decades ago and then changed their POV.

    Duh. That’s exactly what I meant, and thanks for the gentle correction.

    Mark, I think people hate to change their minds, especially young people, and they feel this way for all sorts of reasons: Sometimes we feel like it’s admitting we’re wrong and we hate to do that. It’s also easier to stay the same rather than change. In addition, sometimes we’re responding to peer pressure to conform — I think the young especially feel this pressure. Last, change can be scary so it can be hard to accept the risk of change or to overcome our fears. We may even be genetically hard-wired to resist change.

    But there are times in our lives when we are willing to change. Those times are probably as varied as there are people, although I suspect someone has studied when and how this happens. (The Obama campaign has probably studied it in depth.)

    Nevertheless, I haven’t studied it so this is all I can offer. Overall, though, what I’m trying to say is that I used to believe people “matured to the right” but I’m not so sure anymore. Maybe people trend conservative on fiscal issues as they age, but I think social attitudes are more complex and dependent on the individuals involved and their life experiences.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  277. It also matters that we’re constantly being pushed left by the educational system, culture and media.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  278. Mark and Steve57,

    I don’t know much about Goldwater but I don’t see a lot in this NY Times article that suggests he dramatically changed his beliefs as he aged. Obviously he changed on some issues but we all change a little. Overall, though, did Goldwater really change that much?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  279. In other words, it sounds like he retained the two qualities he was best known for: Independence and an advocate for small government.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  280. On the other hand, I’m not sure the author is someone whose judgment I trust.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  281. best thread ever

    EPWJ (6140f6)

  282. 279. Overall, though, did Goldwater really change that much?

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/22/2013 @ 3:19 pm </blockquote

    It's hard to say, DRJ, as it hard to say what his sincerely held beliefs were. For instance he was once asked years after the '64 campaign what his position on abortion was at the time and “Well, I didn’t have one. It wasn’t an issue.” But in the ’70s he voted solidly pro-life and he even signed the human life amendment in 1980. Because of these political stands he was believed to be solidly pro-life.

    But was he? And did he really not have a position on abortion in 1964?

    No, he did. He lied.

    Goldwater’s Choice

    His wife Peggy was a founding member of Planned Parenthood in Arizona in the late 1930s. Barry and Peggy’s daughter had this story to tell.

    Peggy also had a much more personal story that wasn’t publicly told at the time. In 1955, daughter Joanne became pregnant and wanted to get married and finish college rather than immediately start a family. She decided to have an abortion.

    “My father, being conservative, he felt that the government should not decide what women do with their bodies,” Joanne says in the DVD documentary Mr. Conservative: Goldwater on Goldwater, which CC Goldwater produced. Knowing that, and her mother’s deep involvement with Planned Parenthood, Joanne only confided her plan to her parents. “They were very, very supportive.”

    He did have a position on abortion in 1964. It was the same position he had as he was leaving and after he left the Senate. In the meantime he took votes of inconsequential votes of convenience and signed meaningless documents to convince people he was pro-life, secure in the knowledge that Roe v Wade was law of the land. When he actually had chances to do something about that decision he refused. Which confused people. Until he returned to his roots later.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  283. I voted for Goldwater. I think his views changed — very slightly towards the center. What really changed was the Republican party. AuH2O started on the right wingtip of the elephant and moved to engine #4, and then eventually #3; today he wouldn’t be allowed aboard at all, he’d be (as shown here) a target.

    htom (412a17)

  284. Steve57,

    Are you saying that you disagree with Goldwater on some issues, or is he just another lying politician to you?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  285. The NYT article link DRJ pasted above is really excellent. I’m not certain I’ve ever seen it before. It’s long but quite thorough and its author very much captures-fairly with warts and all IMO- the Barry Goldwater as I and most others have always viewed him. I hope people will take a few minutes to read this article/obit so they can make up their own minds about this man, his legacy, his huge heart and his contributions both to his country and the conservative movement.

    elissa (30ddde)

  286. They are all just politicians. I leave the cults of personality to the Democrats, DRJ. The proof is in the pudding.

    Would it surprise you if Goldwater took politically calculated positions on issues? Positions on issues that weren’t sincere?

    Steve57 (60a887)

  287. The point is it doesn’t matter what we think, the media, academia, even sizable portions of the business community, will persecute you, for being a heretic from the new orthodoxy,

    narciso (3fec35)

  288. Steve57,

    I think politicians are human and, like all humans, some are more reliable than others.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  289. THat is the point of the Williamson piece, you can cheer a murderer like Dorner, without much public blowback, and legitimate right to self defense, well you see the consequences,

    narciso (3fec35)

  290. ==Would it surprise you if Goldwater took politically calculated positions on issues? Positions on issues that weren’t sincere?==

    Yes it would surprise me very much. Nobody’s perfect, but just for example he forcefully defended Nixon against the democrats and the roiling media tide until he knew Nixon was a liar and a menace. Then when he saw the truth and absorbed what Nixon and his henchmen had done, Goldwater took bold steps to get him to resign and publicly excoriated Nixon. That’s character, not cynical political expediency

    elissa (30ddde)

  291. Steve57,

    I was a teenager when Goldwater ran for President, and he wasn’t really on my radar then or subsequently. However, in retrospect, I view Goldwater as more reliable than most politicians because he took an unpopular stand on things he believed in, even though he knew it would probably mean he wouldn’t win.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  292. happyfeet,

    You know, if Megan McArdle is right, the real culture war isn’t between social conservatives and social liberals. It’s between conservatives and liberal elites who demand people conform to their authoritarian ideas of what society needs. Conservatives are the enemy, not because of what they believe but because they won’t conform and thus represent a threat to elite authority.

    If that’s true, and I think it is, then abdicating social issues won’t solve this war. Nothing short of total abdication by conservatives on all issues will satisfy the liberal elites, because they need the masses to conform and be dominated.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/22/2013 @ 9:07 am

    I think Meghan is saying very much the same thing mr. codevilla is saying

    Modern America’s homogenizing educational Establishment and the ruling class’ near monopoly on credentials, advancement, publicity, and money draws ambitious Republicans into the Democrats’ orbit.

    unlike Meghan though mr. codevilla explicitly addresses the social issues thing. I remember cause when I read it I thought he sounded like he needed a hug.

    To represent the country class, to set about reversing the ills the ruling class imposed on America, a party would have to confront the ruling class’ pretenses, with unity and force comparable to that by which these were imposed. [...] Nothing will require greater unity against greater resistance than ending government promotion of abortion and homosexuality.

    You read that and you think oh bless your heart. And then as if sensing your patronizing faux-pity he offers this by way of a confuzzled justification:

    Yet those whose main concerns are with financial probity [that would be me and also you I think DRJ as well as elissa and many others] cannot afford continuing to neglect that capitalist economics presupposes a morally upright people. All this illustrates the need for, and the meaning of, a political party: disparate elements acting all of one and one for all.

    See that is very weak. Cause of I don’t hold with the idea that sally peterson in utica who had an abortion last week is a per force non morally upright person. And I also don’t hold with the idea that supporting same sex marriage means one is not a morally upright person.

    And I MOST CERTAINLY (I put that in ALL CAPS for emphasis) don’t hold with this notion that same sex marriagings have any bearing on the smooth and proper functioning of capitalist economics, nor do I think sally’s abortion has any such effect either.

    And also I don’t really even hold that capitalist economics “presupposes a morally upright people.”

    That sounds like an ass-pull really. The market has lots of ways to weed out bad actors.

    So there’s that. And this comment has gotten longish so I’ll leave it there for now.

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  293. This part is typical,

    Resistance is illegitimate because it can come only from low motives. President Obama’s statement that Republican legislators – and hence the people who elect them – don’t care whether “seniors have decent health care…children have enough to eat” is typical.

    recall Obama characterized Reagan’s reforms, as ‘low deeds’ that inspired his entry into community organizing, Kerry was the no. 1 advocate for the Sandinistas, who were the Soviet proxy in Central America. Brennan was an Arabist
    apparatchik in that period, and as such went native in that period,

    narciso (3fec35)

  294. Well, I disagree, happyfeet.

    I don’t think all Americans have to live by the Golden Rule all the time. but our system does assume that most people will abide by the rule of law. That means we need a moral populace. If enough people aren’t self-governed by personal morality, they won’t abide by the rule of law … and no amount of government will have the oversight or law enforcement assets to fix that.

    At the risk of sounding like an old, politically incorrect fogey: Just as traditional marriages offer the best chance of having successful kids and economically stable families, the best chance of having a successful democracy comes from a population guided by the morality of traditional Judeo-Christian values.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  295. Further, happyfeet, how do you answer McArdle’s suggestion that caving on every social issue won’t satisfy liberals. Their goal is total surrender by conservatives because the point is control, not coexistence.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  296. “I don’t get the problem with this. The inspector comes, you show him the weapon and how it’s stored, and he goes away. How is it different from the annual boiler inspection that cities require, at least around here?

    You don’t get arrested for a noncompliant boiler.

    SPQR (768505)

  297. liberals aren’t liberals anymore they’re fascists

    yes yes yes they are authoritarian to their core

    we should bop them on the goozle

    but I just for the life of me don’t see what that has to do with abortion or gay marriage

    it makes abortion and gay marriage seem very small and trivial I think

    I say abortion and gay marriage are best left to the states to manage best they can in this fallen fallen world

    at the national level we have bigger – much bigger – fishes to fry

    for fascism is afoot!

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  298. happyfeet,

    So your answer to McArdle is: Let’s cave on social issues because “who cares about them anyway, they aren’t important compared to our fiscal problems”? I’m not trying to put words in your mouth but I want to understand your position.

    I think the contrary argument is: “Don’t give up on issues that matter to some people in your base when it won’t gain you any points with liberals and it may empower liberals to demand more.”

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  299. he also ignores there are no states rights, as prop 187, 229, and 8, prove (I don’t know if the middle one was reversed,)

    narciso (3fec35)

  300. speaking of holding down the moral fort the comments to this thinger about a drug bust I found on drudge are kinda fun

    no my answer to McArdle about social issues is for Team R to…

    Honor all Americans for their right to pursue their happiness in their own way. A majority Republican party will necessarily look a lot more libertarian. A majority of Americans no longer share my conservative values, but they do share my desire to pursue happiness without Federal Government intervention.

    it’s all about flies

    you got your flies, pesky and noisome, and you wanna catch em

    you got a bottle of honey

    you got a bottle of vinegar

    your move

    happyfeet (4bf7c2)

  301. happyfeet,

    We live in a welfare state that could easily be considered socialist. Libertarian solutions don’t resonate with voters when Republicans win elections. They are especially hard sells to politicians given the results of the last election. Do you really think politicians don’t see or care what voters did in November 2012?

    At this point, you have a better chance hoping for an asteroid to solve our problems than believing a majority of the Beltway politicians will embrace and implement fiscal responsibility. There just aren’t enough red state politicians to make that happen. I would be delighted if every Republican agreed with the members of Texas’ GOP delegation and voted a hard fiscal line, but it’s not happening.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  302. Also, one man’s honey is another man’s vinegar.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  303. To be clear, happyfeet, I agree we need less spending, entitlement control, and to reduce the deficit. I think the GOP could win elections with that message alone, and I’d be happy if Republicans said that everyday from now until the next election. Social issues aren’t the point to me, but I don’t see the benefit of turning away values voters in an effort to “purify” the GOP message.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  304. Of course, if the GOP could win Presidential elections with that message alone, we’d be talking about President Romney.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  305. There are self-described socialist states less generous with social programs than we are.

    SPQR (768505)

  306. Our once proud jucicial system is grinding to a halt because increasingly witnesses are willing to raise their hands to swear to tell the truth –and then easily lie under oath usually with impunity. A fair trial relies on truth telling and honest presentation on which juries and judges can trust as they formulate their verdicts. Lawyers tell me that is no longer the norm.

    Middle class students as young as Jr.High regularly buy/steal tests and plagerize to cheat to get good grades so they can build a record to get into good colleges where they continue to cheat rather than learn.

    These shocking societal breakdowns and others which appear to be quite commonplace now were nearly unheard of two decades ago. The golden rule is never taught in schools anymore, fewer and fewer kids go to Sunday school where core moral values have traditionally been taught and reinforced. And many fewer kids are raised in intact two parent families where there are hopefully dual role models and double the chance that kids will be secure and taught right from wrong and caught when they do bad things and set straight.

    A big concern of mine which I know I have mentioned here before is that once these expectations, tools, rules, values and traditional role model skills have been out of many people’s lives for a generation or two how does a society ever reclaim them? You can’t just learn this in popular culture (TV movies) or books. You can’t legislate it. I don’t think after three generations of single mom centered families with multiple absent baby daddies America is one day soon going to miraculously like magic reclaim the Beaver Cleaver household model.

    It’s one thing to bemoan on blogs what the liberal welfare state and educational systems have wrought on society. It’s quite another thing entirely to deal with the real outcomes and run a country with fewer and fewer shared values and experiences –which is where we seem to be now. Perhaps I am wrong that a lot of the social values many conservatives espouse are nearly beyond salvage, but I sure don’t see many ideas on how they can be resussitated.

    elissa (30ddde)

  307. Well here’s an example from across the pond;

    http://www.melaniephillips.com/do-we-need-iq-tests-for-juries

    Monty Python doesn’t even capture reality any more, much less satirizing it,

    narciso (3fec35)

  308. feets,

    everything was fine until somebody told me what I had to believe about marriage or I was the meany meany bad person. I never called people names and I told people to cut it out when they did. I figured if it was good enough for Moses and Jesus and the vast majority of the 8-10 billion or so people that have lived on earth who was I to tell everyone else what to believe.

    most of us believe a person cannot kill a 5 yo child just because he/she is “their” child, or a 4 yo, or a 2 yo or a 2 day old. mostest of us probably believe a person can’t kill their child when it is 2 minutes old either, but not as mostest of us as a 2 yo. in fact, some people pays lots and lots of money to send their 18 yo to princeton to listen to someone say yes it is ok to kill your 2 minute old child because it really isn’t “a person” yet like you smart 18 yo that can get into princeton is
    then even more people think its ok to kill the “thing” 2 minutes before it is born because it really really can’t live on its own yet

    how someone knows when during that 4 minutes it is still ok and when it isn’t sounds to me like above the pay scale of the SCOTUS, POTUS, and FLOTUS, and if they’re not sure maybe they should play it safe and let it live
    but no, they say even if it is above their pay scale they say kill it anyway
    and then they say they are the ones who look out for the vulnerable and defenseless
    who is more vulnerable and defenseless than a little creature that cannot run away
    little kittens and puppies can run away and even bite and scratch when you catch them, but you get locked up and are told you are really really super evil for hurting defenseless puppies
    but if you kill a baby just before its born it’s ok

    that is just not right

    if you want it to be ok to kill babies before they are born why do you think it is not ok to kill puppies maybe if i want to kill puppies you shouldn’t stop me

    i remember being on a tennis court when i heard on the radio that it was ok to kill babies before they were born because the SCOTUS said so. At the time I thought, that’s stupid, they don’t get to tell me what is right or wrong but i’ll never have one anyway so what difference does it make

    the difference it makes is that even paul krugman says yes yes what tina fey said is true we will need to tell some people bye bye time to go now, just like Charleton heston saw his friend Edgar G

    no man is an island, not even in lake michigan, and when one life is made cheap all life is made a bit cheaper and if one isn’t paying attention you get to be like pastor niemoller who said “where is everybody” when the fascists knock, knock, knocked on his door
    and mr “i’ve had enough” williamson doesn’t want to be like niemoller, even if he has german heritage (which i don’t know)

    saying no, no to sacrificing babies for the sake of the grownups was also something moses was not to keen on that mr moses must be spinin in his grave something terrible

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  309. 307 – Elissa, You make it a pleasure to read paragraphs.
    Thanks.

    mg (31009b)

  310. ditto, but we seem to be going for the wonderful world of carousel, that michael york and jenny agutter, (who was one of the shield controllers in the avengers) discovered, which turned out not to be sanctuary after all.

    narciso (3fec35)

  311. true that, narciso

    why should anyone tell the truth when president clinton got away with lying and president obama has perfected it as performance art?

    years ago I read an article that made the argument that charles wesley was the main reason that england never had a bloody revolution like the French

    there have been revivals of public morality at least as long as thousands of years ago when young king Josiah found out about a lost scroll that was found in the temple
    but more often what happens is very ugly and it is hundreds or thousands of years before things get back to as good as they once were

    let me know when the one takes up violin lessons

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  312. the Jeremiad, takes it’s name from the prophet who thought he could steer the people away from their impending doom, he didn’t end up like Howard Beale, but he didn’t succeed,

    narciso (3fec35)

  313. DRJ what I got out of the last election is that Team R is actively repellant to the voters it wants to attract

    so what’s gonna change? What are you putting on the table?

    There aren’t any charismatic Team Rs on the national stage. None. People think roobs is charismatic, but they’re wrong.

    He comes across as smarmy and phony and the second he opens his mouth you can tell he’s cut from the same tired old cloth as Romney and Boehner and Paul Ryan and Jeb Bush.

    Rand Paul is new and different but he’s just a baby senator with a weirdo daddy and not to be taken seriously as a presidential candidate.

    With respect to who’s running, there’s nothing new under the sun. We might nominate our first exorcist, and he’s probably the most deserving of the lot.

    But he’s a flippin exorcist.

    I can’t help you, exorcist. Hillary is going to kick your exorcist ass and I can’t help you.

    All the money favors porky porky right now.

    And that’s just pitiful. The difference between porky porky and Hillary is porky porky is slightly more likely to keel over at any moment than Hillary is to get clotted up.

    But only just.

    Something has to change in mudville cause mighty Team R’s Three-Legged Stool has struck out. Twice in a row.

    I say we explore the “honoring of all Americans for their right to pursue happiness in their own way” idea, and focus on a message of economic freedom and growth.

    Mr. Dr. you can’t square a federal government what is consumed with extremist lila rose-style abortion angst and a hyper-concern about whether or not some gay dudes in Iowa got married last Friday with a philosophy of limited government.

    And this reeks of hypocrisy … mostly to young people. And it completely and utterly destroys any coherent messaging about the proper role of the federal government.

    Keep all that 700 club stuff at the state level and you republicans will be a whole lot better off and you won’t have all that Akin all over you to where people point and laugh.

    happyfeet (acd614)

  314. mr feets

    I really really am not that concerned about what 2 gay guys did in Iowa last month. I am concerned about when some bureaucrat points to a statute and says I’m unfit to be a parent because “I teach my children to hate” because my own personal belief that i don’t scream on the frontpage is that SSM is not the same as hetero marriage.

    And I am concerned when doctors and nurses think they know better when an elderly relative should die by giving morphine instead of a water pill and a med student wearing a yamaka says dr kavorkian is a great man, and I wonder how did we get to this?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  315. Mr. Dr. your fears are overblown

    except about the dead old people

    America voted for death panels and John Roberts blessed them so you just have to look at the bright side

    it’s gonna save a LOT of money

    happyfeet (acd614)

  316. mr feets stay tuned for when you have to say, oh, I guess your fears weren’t overblown after all

    and may you never experience what i have with “dead old people”

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  317. I should clarify; it was a pledge to support the human life amendment Goldwater signed, not any amendment itself. He signed it at home. Of course, he waited for his wife Peggy to leave before he let anyone bring it over for him to sign. It was later that the other co-sponsors knew they should have taken that as a clear signal Goldwater was not sincere about the pledge. As you might be able to tell from this article.

    Herald-Journal Apr 12, 1982

    JOHN D. LOFTON JR.

    Goldwater On Pro-life

    WASHINGTON – Sen. Barry Goldwater’s flat statement that he will not support a constitutional amendment to protect the life of the unborn has shocked, angered and confused opponents of abortion – particularly pro-lifers in his home state of Arizona.

    The reason: the senator has already promised to do precisely what he says he won’t do and, in fact, he has co-sponsored an anti-abortion constitutional amendment.

    Appearing on the nationally televised CBS news interview program “Face the nation on March 28, Goldwater criticized – as he has in the past – the Moral Majority, noting “I don’t agree with anybody, any group telling me what my morals should be.” When a reporter speculated that this probably meant then that he was not prepared to go along with a constitutional amendment on abortion, Goldwater declared flatly “Not at all.”

    But Goldwater has already endorsed just such an amendment. The Jan. 22, 1981, Congressional Record lists him among 28 senators who are co-sponsors of S.J. Resolution 17, which was introduced by Sen. Jake Garn, R-Utah. As Garn describes his amendment to the Constitution, it protects “the lives of unborn children and other human beings ‘irrespective of age, health, function, or condition of dependency.’”

    Now, in addition to this, on Sept. 14, 1980, Goldwater, who was at the time seeking re-election to the Senate, signed a National Right to Life Committee pledge promising (1) to vote for a human-life amendment that would prohibit abortion except to prevent the death of the mother, and (2) his opposition to the public funding of abortion.

    According to national Right-to-Life leader Dr. Carolyn Gerster, who is from Phoenix, these promises by Goldwater caused Arizona pro-lifers to “drop everything they were doing” and work for the senator’s re-election. Their efforts included the running of campaign ads saying “A vote for Goldwater is a vote for life.” Goldwater won his race by fewer than 10,000 votes – the number of votes Gerster estimates Arizona pro-lifers can produce.

    When I called Goldwater and asked him about his “Face the Nation” statement and how it squares with his co-sponsorship of the Garn amendment and his promise to the National Right to Life Committee, he became somewhat testy. He said that what he said on “Face the Nation” was that he wouldn’t support a human-life amendment “if there have been changes.”

    But when I reminded him that all he said was “not at all” would he support an anti-abortion amendment, Goldwater snapped: “All right, you understand what I said. Now, what the hell do you know?” He added: “There’s nothing to clear up. I put my name on a pledge to vote for a constitutional amendment and I have no intention of ignoring that pledge. I haven’t seen the goddamned thing. When I get time I’ll read it and see if I support it as it is now written.”

    Goldwater said he can’t support an anti-abortion amendment if it defines conception as the beginning of human life. He observed: “I think abortion is a private matter between the woman and her doctor. I’ve always believed that. And I don’t think anything will be adopted in an abortion-way without that provision in it. But I don’t think it will be called up.”

    When I expressed my confusion, asking him how he could simultaneously support an amendment restricting abortion while believing abortion is a private matter between a woman and her doctor, Goldwater said:

    “Look, I signed an agreement to support that amendment and I will and that’s all I have to say unless changes were made in it. I can’t support any changes. I don’t enjoy voting for it, but I promised I would and I keep my promises.”

    As this is written, there have been no changes in the Garn amendment Goldwater has co-sponsored.

    Footnote: When Goldwater said on “Face the Nation” that he would not support “at all” an anti-abortion constitutional amendment, a reporter asked him: Wouldn’t this mean he’d lose his 100 percent rating with conservatives? The senator replied that he probably would, but he would keep his 100 percent rating with his wife. Goldwater’s wife, Peggy, is a top official with the Arizona chapter of he pro-abortion Planned Parenthood Federation.

    It’s a more than a little disingenuous for Goldwater to say in April 1982 he hadn’t seen the bill, since it had been written in January 1981. Then it was referred to committee. And Goldwater does give the game away when he says he doesn’t think it’ll be called up. He never thought it would make it out of committee. And it never did make it out.

    And then of course Goldwater voted against the Hatch-Eagleton amendment in the year after Goldwater was interviewed for this article. It was defeated Yea-Nay 49-50. Had Goldwater voted for it it would have passed.

    But by then he didn’t need the pro-life organization to get out the vote for him. He hadn’t really decided to run that year and entered the race very late. He had done little campaigning, and none outside Phoenix and Tucson. He was behind, he needed help, and by signing that pro-life pledge he knew he could get an auxiliary campaign organization that was already up and running.

    But can anyone read that article and come away with the idea he ever really meant to support that human life amendment? Especially considering the surrounding facts.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  318. you have a lot of experience with dying people cause you’re a doctor I’m in marketing so I don’t have as much experience

    but I been around the block a time or two

    plus I watched like 7 episodes of house one night I think it was a marathon

    he sure is sassy

    happyfeet (acd614)

  319. my worst experience has been as a family member

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  320. Steve57 – Is that chicken worn out yet? Need any CPR?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  321. i been there Mr. Dr. it’s a horror

    I think we can address it on a policy level though without getting all

    you know

    lifeydoodle about it

    Let’s put that Dr. Carson to work on it. He’ll make short work of all this fascist death panel business.

    happyfeet (acd614)

  322. “Mr. Dr. your fears are overblown”

    Mr. Chicken Little Feets – I think you are listening to Henny Penny too much. If you want smaller government and more power back to the state, get the government out of the abortion business. Hah! Can’t do that can we cuz the fetus flensers scream war on wimmenses.

    I don’t understand why anything has to be “put on the table” to attract low information Obama voters. That seems counter to basic conservative principles, out freebieing the freebie party and dividing the country by identity group.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  323. If there’s no good GOP candidates, who do you suggest we get to market the campaign to “Honor all Americans for their right to pursue their happiness in their own way”?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  324. mr feets
    dr carson would make me look all wishy washy and wimpy if he took on the task

    one must have a lot of conviction and confidence to work on people’s brains

    and he knows about knife fights from personal experience

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  325. “Honor all Americans for their right to pursue their happiness in their own way”

    Doesn’t that sound a little woodstockish?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  326. By the way, when did “happiness” become the point of living? I think it was the 1970′s because it wasn’t that way when I was growing up.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  327. We think alike, MD.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  328. who do you suggest we get to market the campaign to “Honor all Americans for their right to pursue their happiness in their own way”

    I’m quoting that cause by the time I think of something it could be awhile

    um

    first of all we have to herd all the cats onto the same message

    we can use the party platform for this

    it has a bunch of dumb stuff in it now – we can make it a LOT shorter and easier to digest

    I’ll be happy to do that part

    then once we have a message we just need to get the Rs to stay on it

    and we need one person to sorta be the spokesmodel for it – like vanna on wheel of fortune except as a presidential candidate

    I think

    I think the best person would be

    um

    I’d have to go with

    Condoleezza Rice!

    She is probably the bestest choice in 2016 if we want to beat Hillary plus also salvage something of the Republican brand.

    happyfeet (acd614)

  329. 292. I was a teenager when Goldwater ran for President, and he wasn’t really on my radar then or subsequently. However, in retrospect, I view Goldwater as more reliable than most politicians because he took an unpopular stand on things he believed in, even though he knew it would probably mean he wouldn’t win.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/22/2013 @ 5:21 pm

    Well, as the article I posted shows Goldwater had a 100% ACU rating. But then, so does Mitch McConnell so take that for what it’s worth.

    Yes he took stands even though he meant he probably wouldn’t win. But did he he take those stands because he didn’t want to win?

    As the obituary you linked to earlier said, “he said he had always known that he did not have a chance against President Johnson.”

    The odd thing about that his campaign manager Clif White and his campaign team surprised everyone by winning Goldwater the nomination on the first vote. White put together a ground game that beat out the better funded Rockefeller and Scranton teams in the primaries to that extent.

    What did Goldwater do after the convention victory? Fired White and everyone else, went with a different crew, and in the view of many from that point ran as if he wasn’t really trying to win.

    I’m going to drop the Goldwater thing now. I’ve only brought it to this point because I’m very suspicious of Republicans who tell me they want to shrink government. I doubt they’re entirely sincere. Which is why I say the proof is in the pudding; it’s what they do that counts.

    So here we are now now with leviathan breathing down our necks demanding our guns.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  330. happiness tests well in focus groups DRJ

    just go with it

    happyfeet (acd614)

  331. Steve57 – Is that chicken worn out yet? Need any CPR?

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 2/22/2013 @ 7:56 pm

    No CPR needed. The fork tells me it’s about done.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  332. hmm, Steve that sounds vaguely familiar,

    narciso (3fec35)

  333. A couple of links from Spectator impinging on this and the Rove topics of discussion:

    http://spectator.org/archives/2013/02/22/the-banality-of-the-rinos

    http://spectator.org/archives/2013/02/21/se-cupp-and-the-freezing-of-th

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  334. first of all we have to herd all the cats onto the same message

    So the new plan is conservative fascism?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  335. limited government can’t be fascist it’s actually the bestest bulwark against fascism there is except for Spider-Man

    happyfeet (acd614)

  336. 308. I love Melanie. Don’t tell my wife.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  337. She does have a no nonsense point of view, what would be considered ‘speaking truth to power’

    narciso (3fec35)

  338. happyfeet,

    This is poetic justice but Barry Goldwater anticipated your Happiness themed campaign and explained why it won’t work:

    Equality, rightly understood as our founding fathers understood it, leads to liberty and to the emancipation of creative differences; wrongly understood, as it has been so tragically in our time, it leads first to conformity and then to despotism.

    Liberals and Libertarians for a couple of generations have led us to a society that values personal fulfillment and happiness above all else, but it isn’t the recipe for a good democracy. To the Founding Fathers, the pursuit of happiness didn’t mean personal fulfillment; it meant virtue. They knew people need morality to guide them to a good life, and both they and Goldwater knew that anything less ultimately leads to conformity and despotism.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  339. 282. I agree Pee Wee, and hope our being bystanders is just happy coincidence.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  340. 328. You two are the best.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  341. Let us assume arguendo that there exists a social institution based upon male-female pairing. Let us further assume that there exists at least three centuries of writings describing the purpose of this institution as being the denigration and oppression of homosexuals. If such an institution existed, I would oppose giving it legal effect, and, in the alternative, I would only support giving this institution legal effect if the same legal effect were available to same-sex pairings.

    Marriage is not such an institution.

    No centuries-old writings describe marriage as an institution whose purpose is to oppress persons of a particular sexual orientation. As a matter of fact, the first published writing to specifically deal with the issue of same-sex “marriage” predates the concept of sexual orientation. Compare Joel Prentiss Bishop, Commentaries on the Law of Marriage
    & Divorce § 225 (1st ed. 1852) (“Marriage between two persons of one sex could have no validity, as none of the ends of matrimony could be accomplished thereby. It has always, therefore, been deemed requisite to the entire validity of every marriage . . . that the parties should be of different sex.”), quoted in Defendant Sally Howe Smith’s Cross-Motion for Summary Judgment
    and Brief in Support With Consolidated Opposition to Plaintiff’s Motion
    for Summary Judgment, Bishop v. United States, 04-CV-848-TCK-TLW (N.D. Okla.), at 18, with J. Katz, The Invention of
    Heterosexuality 10 (1995); J. D’Emilio & E. Freedman, Intimate Matters: A History of Sexuality in America 121 (2d ed. 1997) (“The modern terms homosexuality and
    heterosexuality do not apply to an era that had not yet articulated
    these distinctions
    “), cited in Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 at 568-569 (2003)

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  342. but the happiness campaign isn’t really about happiness

    it’s about trust DRJ

    it’s about saying to the voters you can trust us not to get all up in your bidness cause we’re just here to roll up our sleeves and get to work growing this economy and creating jobs and bringing prosperity back

    and we’re gonna do everything we can to make government less burdensome and intrusive, and you can take that to the bank

    and the voters will say

    OMG you’re so awesome we love you thank God there’s finally an alternative to the fascism of obama and hillary

    then Team R will get elected to the White House and take back the Senate and grow their house majority

    and then all they have to do is execute

    happyfeet (acd614)

  343. Mr. Feets – Just remember that Wednesday is Prince Spaghetti Day in Boston and everything will be boom boom dadum swim.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  344. “Trust me” worked for Obama but not so well for Romney, happyfeet. Why would it work for your happiness candidate?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  345. Prince Spaghetti Day is carbs Mr. daley

    and carbs are not on Team Win

    happyfeet (acd614)

  346. Romney was a phony baloney say anything pander express candidate

    he was more plastic than barbie and more overproduced than katy perry

    and god help us he was the best nominee out of those that ran

    this is why we need New Ideas

    happyfeet (acd614)

  347. plus he had romnesia it was on cnn

    happyfeet (acd614)

  348. So if we just had the right salesperson and the right ideas, we can win with a “Trust me” Happiness Platform.

    Do you really think no one has ever thought of this before? You’ve just described virtually every campaign that’s ever been run, except McGovern ’72.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  349. Via the indispensible Doug Ross:

    http://www.gunssavelife.com/?p=5931

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  350. you’re forgetting we’re also gonna be excising a bunch of 700 club stuff that makes voters say I can’t vote for you people

    that part is key to the whole plan

    happyfeet (acd614)

  351. 342. Yeah, I don’t get it either. People want what they want when the want, same old, same old.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  352. No, homosexuality was known some 1900 years ago if not longer, otherwise Paul wouldn’t have spoken of it, in Romans, it is no worse then any other sin,

    narciso (3fec35)

  353. It’s ironic, because it wasn’t social issues, but the spendings and to a lesser degree foreign policy, that the left used against Goldwater,

    narciso (3fec35)

  354. 353. Having read Tacitus and Suetonius it really is embarrassing we got here in half the time.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  355. Andthe founders were familiar with Gibbon, Livy was also someone they were aware of, Sallust might
    have been reminded of Catiline,

    narciso (3fec35)

  356. happyfeet:

    you’re forgetting we’re also gonna be excising a bunch of 700 club stuff that makes voters say I can’t vote for you people

    that part is key to the whole plan

    Who are these voters that would vote Republican but who, instead, stay home and/or voted for Democrats because they were turned off by GOP values? Are you talking about young voters or someone else?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  357. Re-read the 1964 GOP Platform, happyfeet. With the exception of its references to God (who was still popular with Americans in 1964), the GOP and Goldwater stood for everything you say you want:

    1. Every person has the right to govern himself, to fix his own goals, and to make his own way with a minimum of governmental interference.

    2. It is for government to foster and maintain an environment of freedom encouraging every individual to develop to the fullest his God-given powers of mind, heart and body; and, beyond this, government should undertake only needful things, rightly of public concern, which the citizen cannot himself accomplish.

    There’s more but you get the drift. So how’d the Goldwater campaign work out?

    And do you really think today’s American electorate that voted for Obama (twice!) would respond to this message, especially now that the economy is in such dire straits? My guess is voters feel they need government now more than ever. The time to argue for limited government is when times are good, not when times are bad.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  358. and god help us he was the best nominee out of those that ran

    No, that was Ron Paul.

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  359. mostly worried young people and professionals and educated people who are concerned about the decline

    and also single white females – the ones what aren’t food stamp whores yet

    happyfeet (acd614)

  360. yes sounds like the Goldwater campaign would make a good template I think

    it’s not 1964 anymore it’s 2013 and people are scared and disheartened by how seedy and filthy and fascist their little country is becoming

    I guess Goldwater was just before his time

    happyfeet (acd614)

  361. Talk about timely! Firebrand arch conservative Ann Coulter and firebrand arch libertarian John Stossel duke it out. Debate is good.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2013/02/22/epic-ann-coulter-and-john-stossel-duke-it-out/

    elissa (30ddde)

  362. Young people and young professionals and single white females love Obama, and nothing was going to change that. They were never going to vote Republican.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  363. “Having the appearance of wisdom”, Amerikkka you are so lost.

    356. wow, I dint know until this instant Gibbon was that early.

    We are so provincial, “there is nothing new under the sun” not even I-Pod 5.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  364. that’s kind of defeatist DRJ and defeatism works more better on my side of the argument I think

    so…

    are you suggesting Team R stick with the 3-legged stool paradigm?

    what suggests that will be a winner in 2016 when it failed so spectacularly in the last two at-bats?

    happyfeet (acd614)

  365. Duh. That’s exactly what I meant, and thanks for the gentle correction.

    DRJ, in reality — in terms of how many people live (particularly behind closed doors) and not just what they say (in public) — your original characterization actually is just as applicable, if not more so.

    People do vote with their feet and the moving van, and while quite a few hard-core do-gooder liberals — among others — truly believe in the ideals of integration and certainly civil rights, in terms of where they choose to live and which schools they send their children to is a whole different matter. In that regard, such liberals are the epitome — the essence — of the “limousine liberal.” So while they talk the talk (about abhorring the concept of segregation—and rightly so), they don’t walk the walk, and therefore lead lives not too different from that of garden-variety segregationists.

    The behavior of civil-rights “progressives” is rather analogous to the way that, for example, Bill Clinton was and is a big supporter of women’s rights. Or Al Gore, with his jetset lifestyle and wasteful set of toys (eg, fancy gas-hog vehicles), was and is a big fan of green-earth this, green-earth that.

    Overall, though, what I’m trying to say is that I used to believe people “matured to the right” but I’m not so sure anymore. Maybe people trend conservative on fiscal issues as they age, but I think social attitudes are more complex and dependent on the individuals involved and their life experiences.

    In light of the Baby Boomer generation being sometimes characterized as a case of stunted maturity, of hippies never growing up, of people enthralled with youth (and with the Botox injections to prove it), the current group of graying Americans, when it comes to the notion of “with age comes wisdom,” may deserve an extra dose of cynicism and skepticism.

    As for Goldwater — very much pre-baby-boomer — he apparently was quite happy to change his mind later in life. I do wonder if he therefore changed his tone about the leftwing, about the Democrat Party and liberals in 1990s America. My suspicion is he did–certainly behind closed doors.

    When he was joking about how he and John McCain were now seen as too liberal by various Republican Party activists, Goldwater was too foggy or in a state of denial to realize that he, in fact — in the context of late 20th century America — really was leaning left, regardless of the presence or absence of Pat Robertson or the Moral Majority, etc. IOW, what Goldwater was warning about in the 1960s had — in the context of do-your-own-thang America in the 1990s — become increasingly and absurdly evident.

    Mark (767b53)

  366. Mr. Feets – Why do people vote for the Purple People Beaters and Race Pimp overlords on the left? I don’t even know where to pick up a membership card in the religious right.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  367. Mr. daley they’re STUPID is why

    happyfeet (acd614)

  368. I hope the GOP voters avoid moderate candidates and choose someone who can articulate a conservative message of limited government, fiscal responsibility, entitlement reform, a stronger economy through reduced regulations (especially in the manufacturing and energy sectors), and belief in values that strengthen our society. To me, the latter includes support for two-parent families, pro-life policies that make abortion legal in some cases but rare, and ways to increase opportunities for immigrants and gay partners — such as more/streamlined visa programs and civil unions — but without granting amnesty or legalizing gay marriage.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  369. I hope the GOP voters avoid moderate candidates and choose someone who can articulate a conservative message of limited government, fiscal responsibility, entitlement reform, a stronger economy through reduced regulations (especially in the manufacturing and energy sectors), and belief in values that strengthen our society. To me, the latter includes support for two-parent families, pro-life policies that make abortion legal in some cases but rare, and ways to increase opportunities for immigrants and gay partners — such as more/streamlined visa programs and civil unions — but without granting amnesty or legalizing gay marriage.

    Why did they avoid Ron Paul?

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  370. Boy, this post generated a lot of good comments, but that’s not unusual for this site.

    I am still perplexed, however, how Goldwater could have been considered a viable Presidential candidate after trying to blow up Fort Knox and corner the gold supply, not to mention having a Girl Friday with the name of Pussy Galore. And Odd Job, a sinister oriental, as his right hand man at the height of the Cold War and the VietNam War? Come on! How did he survive being sucked out of that plane, anyway, although he was a lot thinner afterwards.

    nk (53646e)

  371. it doesn’t seem odd to have such big huge ecumenical stuff what literally affects the whole world (limited government, fiscal responsibility, entitlement reform, a stronger economy through reduced regulation) juxtaposed with micro niche-targeted stuff as (pro-life policies that make abortion legal in some cases but rare; streamlined visa programs for hay partners)?

    That really jumps out at me DRJ and it’s puzzling

    I would say ok if you had to pick half of all that stuff what’s the most important.

    happyfeet (acd614)

  372. I mean c’mon – hay partners? really?

    happyfeet (acd614)

  373. Mark:

    So while they talk the talk (about abhorring the concept of segregation—and rightly so), they don’t walk the walk, and therefore lead lives not too different from that of garden-variety segregationists.

    I’ve read studies, reports and articles that support what you say but I don’t think it’s true everywhere. Where I live, the main minority group is Hispanics. There are some areas of town that are predominantly Hispanic but this is due to economic reasons rather than racial segregation.

    Hispanics live in every area of my town and make up a sizeable percentage of every school and neighborhood. We shop in the same stores, go to the same restaurants and malls, and work in the same offices and buildings. Maybe I’m clueless but I don’t see segregation in my community.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  374. Michael:

    Why did they avoid Ron Paul?

    Because he’s a loon on foreign policy, and I say that with affection.

    nk!

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  375. happyfeet,

    I say to you: If value issues are so unimportant to you, ignore them and vote for the big items that matter. Why do you let something like abortion or gay marriage distract you from what really matters?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  376. because of these are the issues what are alienating America’s youth and preventing them from hearing the messages about limited government and prosperity

    and that is cause the social issues are blatant contradictions of any assertion that Team R values individual liberty

    they’re non sequiturs, and, especially given Team R’s Akin problem, they’re non-trivial problems

    happyfeet (acd614)

  377. and frankly if you wanted tons of abortion and gay marriagings Team R would just need to keep doing what it’s been doing

    happyfeet (acd614)

  378. (losing)

    happyfeet (acd614)

  379. I don’t think dropping social issues will win the youth vote. By definition, liberals will always be able to offer more liberal lifestyle choices, and that’s what appeals to today’s young voters. As you’ve said repeatedly in these comments, happiness works with those voters.

    The conservative message of personal responsibility simply doesn’t appeal to young people right now, and it may not until times are so tough that they have no other choice. Even then, many will probably stay home instead of voting.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  380. it doesn’t work that way tough times just tilt the checkerboard towards the fascists – remember the circumstances what produced that Hitler guy?

    our fascists here in america decided not to wait for the economic hell they decided to create it themselves

    and they figured out what it means when you can print print print money

    it’s probably already too late to do anything though

    we’re all gonna die

    happyfeet (acd614)

  381. There are some areas of town that are predominantly Hispanic but this is due to economic reasons rather than racial segregation.

    DRJ, class differences — including social-cultural traits and idiosyncrasies — definitely are at the core of how people interface with one another. Also, an interesting irony is that areas within some of the most true-blue states in America — super-super-blue urban areas in particular — awash in do-gooder liberalism, are not necessarily anymore integrated than anywhere else, and, if anything, may be more demographically polarized.

    projects.propublica.org: The Fair Housing Act of 1968 required the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development to take “affirmative” steps to end housing discrimination and promote integration. But 45 years of the federal housing discrimination ban has failed to break up that segregation..

    Then, too, the external traits of X percentage of Latinos (and the traditional cultural/scientific classification behind that—ie, Latino being an ethnicity and not a race) would give them a different dynamic. For example, in the 1950s, Lucy could be married to Desi, and the entertainment value of that (meaning the lack of controversy) didn’t shake and wobble. But would she have done as well if her husband looked similar to, as one obvious example, Barack Obama?

    BTW, has Hollywood — super liberal Hollywood — ever done a TV show (even in today’s era of political correctness run amok) where the MAIN characters of the program were an interracial husband and wife? Offhand, I don’t know of any. If there really hasn’t been, that actually surprises me. It also reminds me that there’s nothing more contemptible and worthless than a bigoted or racist liberal. That’s because true tolerance and sophistication about racial differences are perhaps the only positive traits I associate with a stereotypical liberal.

    Mark (767b53)

  382. “I don’t think dropping social issues will win the youth vote.”

    I agree. Two thirds of them don’t even understand the other issues and just guzzle propaganda.

    I was very surprised to be able to maintain a civil conversation with my son’s rabid feminist lesbian girlfriend after college graduation a few years back. He tipped me off she was going to be gunning for bear. Turned out she didn’t understand the basics of any conservative positions.

    If a voter’s biggest concern is over so-called social issues, they should have issues with both parties, not just Republicans. The 30+ year old hysteria about the religious right is a overused and tired meme. People need to be concerned about thought and speech police from the left in academia and the media, protection of the second amendment, programs such as ObamaCare as encroachments on our liberties, gaiadoodles trying to take us back to the stoneage, etc.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  383. 377. because of these are the issues what are alienating America’s youth and preventing them from hearing the messages about limited government and prosperity

    and that is cause the social issues are blatant contradictions of any assertion that Team R values individual liberty

    they’re non sequiturs, and, especially given Team R’s Akin problem, they’re non-trivial problems

    Comment by happyfeet (acd614) — 2/22/2013 @ 10:15 pm

    If you give up the social issues you’re essentially saying their fascist indoctrinators from k thru college graduation were right about you all along.

    “Yeah, you got me. It isn’t like I thought marriage between a man and a woman served an identifiable and valuable social function. I just hate gays.”

    Then you’re worse off.

    It isn’t like it just sorta happened; they became alienated by these issues all on their own. A lot of people worked very hard on the kids to make sure it happened.

    Really you have no hope of them ever voting Team R unless you deprogram them from all the brainwashing.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  384. Chicago is 32% Hispanic. I heard it on the radio.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  385. The Deepest Source of Our Troubles

    Lest I bore you and fail to provoke sound and fury, let me preface my remarks by saying two things: that libertarians should be social conservatives and vice-versa.

    …For a man and a woman who are married to rear offspring is a chore. It may be fulfilling, but it is demanding and hard. It requires sacrifice and discipline. For a single person to do so and to do it well requires a species of heroism. For a single person to do so at all requires help — and that is where we are. For we now take it for granted that we are to pay for the mistakes that the single mother (and her sexual partner) made. We now, in fact, presume that she is entitled to our help — and we now have a political party in power built on that premise.We are to pay for her groceries through WIC (Women, Infants, Children), for her medical care through Medicaid, for the contraceptives that she does not have the discipline to use properly and for the morning-after pill should she slip up and need an abortion. Her right to be promiscuous trumps our right to the fruits of our own labor.

    What I would say to libertarians is this: Liberty requires a responsible citizenry, and the sexual revolution (very much like the drug culture, which was and is its Doppelgänger) promotes irresponsibility of every kind. It promotes dependence, and it fosters an ethos in which those who exercise the virtues fostered by the market are punished for doing so and in which those who live for present pleasure are rewarded.

    Or, what she said:

    380. I don’t think dropping social issues will win the youth vote. By definition, liberals will always be able to offer more liberal lifestyle choices, and that’s what appeals to today’s young voters. As you’ve said repeatedly in these comments, happiness works with those voters.

    The conservative message of personal responsibility simply doesn’t appeal to young people right now, and it may not until times are so tough that they have no other choice. Even then, many will probably stay home instead of voting.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/22/2013 @ 10:29 pm

    Steve57 (60a887)

  386. “Really you have no hope of them ever voting Team R unless you deprogram them from all the brainwashing.”

    Steve57 – I find myself with some good ute deprogramming opportunities around camp fires late at night as a volunteer with a brown shirt fascistic national ute organization which stresses personal responsibility and traditional values.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  387. you’ll just be sitting there minding your own business and they’ll come marching in and crawl up your leg and start biting the inside of your ass and you’ll be all like hey get out of my ass you stupid gaiadoodles

    happyfeet (acd614)

  388. I’ll bring President Tiger Beat with me, Mr. Feets.

    They won’t even notice I’m there, so eagerly will they be humping his leg.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  389. the social issues are mostly just made up crap for to raise money for focus on the family weirdos in their stupid direct mail campaigns

    in real life they just don’t mean anything

    people gay marrying willy nilly and aborting this that and the other – I just go on with my day

    try to avoid the carbs

    what do you want from me

    happyfeet (acd614)

  390. 390. the social issues are mostly just made up crap for to raise money for focus on the family weirdos in their stupid direct mail campaigns

    in real life they just don’t mean anything

    people gay marrying willy nilly and aborting this that and the other – I just go on with my day

    try to avoid the carbs

    what do you want from me

    Comment by happyfeet (acd614) — 2/22/2013 @ 11:45 pm

    Well, if you’re not going to eat the whole sandwich I’ll take the bread.

    I’m carb loading cuz I’m fighting in the Kumite in Hong Kong in a couple of months.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  391. Mr. 57 I saw that odious nasty Jimmy Carter on the tv today or yesterday –

    probably on Piers Morgan

    and it made me think how young food stamp is

    and how he’s gonna have to watch all the misery his vicious rape of america is gonna cause

    and his kids are gonna see it too

    and nasty little food stamp is gonna have to live with that

    but by then Hawaii will probably be an independent fascist republic or whatever and his kids will be fascist princesses and

    whatever

    it all sucks

    happyfeet (acd614)

  392. I’m carb loading cuz I’m fighting in the Kumite in Hong Kong in a couple of months.

    you’re officially the coolest person I kinda know

    happyfeet (acd614)

  393. Look on the bright side Mr. Feets. The way President Obamageddon is running the economy into the ground you won’t have to watch Piers Morgan for very much longer.

    He’ll probably get cannibalized by a starving CNN production crew once New York turns into a Snake Plissken movie set what with the upcoming societal collapse.

    And you won’t have electricity any more in our new green economy anyway.

    Anyway, relax. It’s gonna get a whole lot worse before it really sucks.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  394. i hate that cause

    I’m in LA

    I already got mega-tuberculosis on my ass and giant goldfish between me and my escape route

    it’s hard out here for a pikachu

    happyfeet (acd614)

  395. Just don’t let any CNN production crews in your house and you’ll be OK.

    If any do come to your door, pro tip: just toss one of those giant goldfish in one direction and then they’ll chase after it, then run the other way.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  396. i replied Mr. Steve but

    it got stuck

    I’m pretty sure I didn’t use any nono words

    pickles

    happyfeet (acd614)

  397. 391. The squirt gets her first lesson, and maybe joins the class this AM.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  398. 371. Where ya bin, doing good?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  399. @371–Yeah, hi nk. Your emily latella-like comment cracked me up. It’s nice to see you back in good blog commenting form. Some of your commentings just prior to your taking the break were kinda scary and unpleasant (but I’m sure you know that). Hope all is well now and that it will stay that way for you.

    elissa (a55268)

  400. Hawaii is even farther to the left, then say Oregon, with single payer and all that, maybe China can straighten them out,

    narciso (3fec35)

  401. I’m carb loading cuz I’m fighting in the Kumite in Hong Kong in a couple of months.

    you’re officially the coolest person I kinda know

    Ditto. Tell us more, Steve57.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  402. And tell us about the first lesson, gary gulrud.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  403. happyfeet,

    You encourage you to read every word of this article linked by Steve57 at comment 286. Here is the conclusion:

    If we do not find a way to reverse the sexual revolution, we are doomed. The future of liberty is contingent on the success of the social conservatives. The libertinism that some libertarians ostentatiously embrace provides the growth in the administrative entitlements state with its impetus. If to be a libertarian is to favor political liberty, then libertarians must embrace social conservatism. If to be a libertarian is to embrace sex, drugs, and rock and roll, then libertarians are the proponents — whether witting or not — of the soft despotism that threatens to engulf us.

    As I said in my post on Saturday, the last thing that we need to do is to take the advice proffered to us by Mike Murphy that, to succeed, the Republican Party must surrender to the Zeitgeist. If the Republican Party does that, it should be abandoned.

    I know you disagree with this. You are consumed by the moment and believe everything will be fine if we just leave social issues alone. You are wrong and the author explains why. I challenge you to rebut his facts and analysis.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  404. Oops. “I encourage you” not “You encourage you.”

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  405. 403. Rescheduled to next Sat., earache.

    At minimum the economic fight is lost already and the social demands lodged by the Left ultimately self-destructive and anyway so-so shallow and vapid.

    Thanks for your heroic effort to maintain a level of respectfulness that I can’t begin to muster.

    How could I ever learn to love my enemies, I can’t even love my friends.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  406. I’m a believer in martial arts for kids. Talking about your squirt’s lessons reminded me of taking my son to TKD lessons many years ago, probably at about the same age. (He missed many lessons because of chronic ear problems, so even that resonates with me.) Hope she feels better soon and likes the lessons.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  407. As DRJ said @404, the Paul Rahe article is very good and certainly says what I’ve been trying to say much better than I have.

    To build on that, There’s a post up at Legal Insurrection along the same theme.

    Coulter on Stossel shows foolishness of Fordham’s cancellation

    It’s a 9 minute video of John Stossel hosting a Q&A session with Ann Coulter fielding questions from Libertarian students.

    Prof. Jacobson makes this astute observation.

    The students in the audience were libertarian, sharing many of the social values of modern liberals without the statist oppressiveness.

    Libertarians somehow don’t realize they’re the allies of the of the liberal statist elites. I believe this form of libertarianism (as the first questioner asks r.e. drugs, “What business is it of yours what I put in my body”) appeals to the young, especially college students who’ve had somebody else pay for everything their whole lives, because they just can’t understand how shallow the arguments in favor are, and how harsh reality’s verdict will be.

    Consequences escape them. It’s too bad that Coulter didn’t tell the young lady, who doesn’t use drugs herself, that creating large numbers of dysfunctional drug addicts leads to the 70% socialist system we currently have. Not merely that it would be OK with her if we didn’t have it.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  408. Since the problem lies in culture, the law is a poor instrument,

    narciso (3fec35)

  409. DRJ @407, Krav Maga, Hebrew for “contact combat,” is very good. It’s the Israeli Defense Forces unarmed combat system. Very easy to learn, very effective.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  410. i read it. I’ve read that before actually.

    If we do not find a way to reverse the sexual revolution, we are doomed.

    no I can’t agree – this is not the Republican Party’s job and it reeks of those creepy Saudi Arabian vice squads what burn school girls alive

    my first thought though is we’re doomed anyway

    my second thought is that the best way to instill a sense of responsibility in people is for them to have a job and a non-fascist education and goals and opportunity

    and that means it’s imperative that we free our increasingly-fascist economy from the shackles of the obamawhores

    and that is what Team R should focus on

    not being moral guidance counselors

    and Team R has far far far less moral authority than you suppose

    remember what our friend Mr.

    oh what’s his name

    Mr. Alinsky

    remember what our friend Mr. Alinsky said

    “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.”

    There is absolutely nothing what inheres in your average Republican politician what suggests that they can live up to the rules that would of necessity accompany an attempt to reverse the sexual revolution.

    Republican mens and womens are not *that* different from your typically whorish American, except for me and you. They just keep it all on the d/l more better.

    But we mustn’t judge.

    happyfeet (acd614)

  411. 409. Since the problem lies in culture, the law is a poor instrument,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 2/23/2013 @ 9:32 am

    The whole point of so many liberal causes is to denigrate culture, at least American culture to the extent they’ll admit it exists at all, as just a collection of irrational bigotries. Usually relics of a primitive religious origin.

    Then pass a whole set of anti-discrimination laws to protect women, the LGBT crowd, and minorities from the irrational bigotries of the majority who are merely trying to protect their White privelege anyhow.

    Voila, law becomes the only tool, the only source of legitimacy.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  412. It goes to the Brechtian insight, where he suggested ‘dissolve the people, and elect another in it’s stead’ a society without a stable family base, cannot long prosper;

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/02/aborting_the_party_of_lincoln.html

    narciso (3fec35)

  413. 408. But we mustn’t judge.

    Comment by happyfeet (acd614) — 2/23/2013 @ 9:37 am

    Then enjoy your fascist nanny state, Mr. Feets.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  414. Take Rolling Stone, please, the same marketing arm of the Medellin and now Sinaloa, tells us, it is wrong to have a Keystone Pipeline, ironically they use the metaphor of a ‘junkee’s needle, the one thing that keeps our economy, running is considered a toxin,

    narciso (3fec35)

  415. happyfeet:

    But we mustn’t judge.

    Why not? It’s our money paying for other people’s lifestyles. Why shouldn’t we judge how they spend our money?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  416. No, homosexuality was known some 1900 years ago if not longer, otherwise Paul wouldn’t have spoken of it, in Romans, it is no worse then any other sin,

    The concept of homosexual acts certainly existed.

    The concept of homosexuality as an orientation or an identity did not.

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  417. When you go to restaurants, don’t you return to the ones that do a good job and refuse to dine at the ones that do a bad job? That’s a form of judging and, by your standards, that’s wrong.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  418. “we mustn’t judge” referred to the Republican mens and womens what are not *that* different from your typically whorish American in the sentence before that

    is all

    sorry that was unclear

    but judge away on the spendings I got your back there

    happyfeet (acd614)

  419. narciso @413, that was one of the main problems with the Soviet Union. They actively worked at destroying the family (not to mention what they did to the church; the Bolsheviks rabidly hated the church and meted out the harshest punishment to priests and religious people) so that there would be no sources of morality or objects of loyalty except the state.

    When you atomize civil society and its institutions, until there is nothing between the individual and the state, then the state wins every time. For as long as it lasts.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  420. Good link, narciso. Thanks.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  421. Then enjoy your fascist nanny state, Mr. Feets.

    that’s what we all get to enjoy until the stupid republicans figure out how to win actual for reals elections

    I liked a lot of what Rahe said about Romney though btw

    he really was a hubristic lil dipstick, and more and moreso in hindsight

    someone should throw a shoe at him at CPAC to where it bops him in the goozle and he’s left sputtering with rage and humiliation

    happyfeet (acd614)

  422. Thanks for clarifying that, happyfeet. Now, regarding this:

    my second thought is that the best way to instill a sense of responsibility in people is for them to have a job and a non-fascist education and goals and opportunity

    As a rule, people don’t get jobs until they are adults in today’s world. Maybe a few teenagers but not that many anymore. Does it make sense to wait until they have formed lifelong habits to expect them to learn personal responsibility, punctuality, frugality, and the other values that make up our market system? Isn’t that especially unlikely when so many young people have children before they have jobs?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  423. In other words, isn’t it plainly true that the best way to instill a sense of personal responsibility is to encourage intact two-parent families? You may not like doing that, but surely you admit that it has a greater likelihood of success than waiting until adulthood to instill those values.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  424. No, the problem with Romney is he thinks too much like you, pikachu, he doesn’t judge Obama’s works as anything other then being ‘in over his head,’ the other side has no such reservation, a dog starving, tax dodging, cancer causing, plutocrat,

    narciso (3fec35)

  425. well the yoots can have the goals and opportunity part

    everyone should have a dream

    you know – like those kids in Glee

    full disclosure

    I think having lil womens sneaking off to abortion clinics for so their college dreams don’t get derailed is a far far better problem for our society to have than turning them into pint-sized lil food stamp whores

    if we got to pick

    happyfeet (acd614)

  426. As for a non-fascist education, single parents generally don’t have the time to home school or the money to send children to private schools. How are they to avoid putting their children in today’s public education? Isn’t it more likely that children of a two-parent household will have more educational opportunities?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  427. happyfeet:

    I think having lil womens sneaking off to abortion clinics for so their college dreams don’t get derailed is a far far better problem for our society to have than turning them into pint-sized lil food stamp whores

    if we got to pick

    We don’t get to pick for them. They pick for themselves, and many of they are choosing to have babies and take welfare.

    You seem to think it’s an either/or choice. Apparently for today’s young women, it’s all-of-the-above.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  428. the best way to instill a sense of personal responsibility is to encourage intact two-parent families

    maybe but that’s the purview of parents and churches and neighbors and friends and society in general

    not the federal government

    so while yes yes yes let’s reform welfare as best we can, it’s not Team R’s job to instill responsibility in other people’s kids

    that’s why Santorum is so creepy – he wants to bend the whole apparatus of the state into socially engineering model families

    and that’s just not gonna fly

    it’s not realistic

    and it can’t be made out to be anything but creepy

    happyfeet (acd614)

  429. happyfeet,

    Are you being your typical entertaining and carefree self, or do you really believe life is like a TV show and most young people are college-bound and Gleeful?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  430. Does it make sense to wait until they have formed lifelong habits to expect them to learn personal responsibility, punctuality, frugality, and the other values that make up our market system?

    No, if you want people to learn market-based as opposed to dependency-based values they have to start when they’re young. That’s why the Socialists are way ahead of you, DRJ.

    Obama’s War On Children and the Family Farm

    The Department of Labor is poised to put the finishing touches on a rule that would apply child-labor laws to children working on family farms, prohibiting them from performing a list of jobs on their own families’ land.

    Under the rules, children under 18 could no longer work “in the storing, marketing and transporting of farm product raw materials.”

    “Prohibited places of employment,” a Department press release read, “would include country grain elevators, grain bins, silos, feed lots, stockyards, livestock exchanges and livestock auctions.”

    You know how the liberal song and dance goes, don’t you, DRJ?

    “You heartless woman! You’re for exploiting children in child labor?!?”

    Steve57 (60a887)

  431. no we don’t get to pick people’s choices DRJ

    I’m just saying that I’d rather America have problems attendant to opportunity and prosperity as opposed to having problems attendant to decline and dependency, and there’s a lot Team R could do to tilt the landscape in favor of the former

    if it could win elections

    happyfeet (acd614)

  432. happyfeet:

    maybe but that’s the purview of parents and churches and neighbors and friends and society in general

    not the federal government

    The federal government uses taxpayers’ money that effectively encourages single mothers to procreate. That makes it everyone’s business.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  433. Are you being your typical entertaining and carefree self, or do you really believe life is like a TV show and most young people are college-bound and Gleeful?

    I don’t have to answer that

    happyfeet (acd614)

  434. DRJ–
    The discussion(s) on this thread have been fascinating. I particularly appreciate happyfeet’s contributions which illuminate that under all the mirth he has a thoughtful and serious nature more than on any other thread which I can recall. I do think happyfeet’s conclusions are somewhat naive and simplistic but I likewise think the Ricochet article exudes considerable naiveté of a different sort.

    The article carefully describes how we got to this not so good place, who’s fault it mostly is, and why it has been slowly killing the patient for a few decades. It posits how much better off we’d be if we could go back in time and have a redo –or, if we could somehow now recapture some of the lost traditional values around which society was organized and were the foundation for creating American families while also helping make them long-lived, self-sufficient and strong. Most who read and post here probably agree with much or at least some of that.

    But where this article fails utterly is where most articles of its “stay the course-keep the faith” type fail, IMO. While it passionately preaches what should be, and that we need to “turn things around” and that libertarians should be wanting to help and why, it offers no clear path at all by which the message will suddenly be received by enough of a resistant and increasingly needy electorate to win national elections or how a turnaround of the welfare state might be accomplished in practical terms without winning elections. It shows no recognition of the near impossibility of returning to the desirable intact two parent family model which values marriage and personal responsibility now that that model has been so thoroughly non-operational across all ethnicities and most income levels for quite some time. My @307 touched on this yesterday.

    It’s like America needs to be taught a whole hard extinct language. But what will make people want to make the effort to learn it?

    elissa (a55268)

  435. Of course we get to pick people’s choices, happyfeet. We do it all the time. You can have an abortion in some cases; you can’t in others. Ditto for guns, contraception, where we live, even the food we eat.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  436. The federal government uses taxpayers’ money that effectively encourages single mothers to procreate. That makes it everyone’s business.

    yes and they should stop doing that

    but Mr. Rahe wants to swing the pendulum to the opposite extreme, and I don’t think that would prove to be a fruitful pursuit

    I don’t think Team R would get very far with that, and there’s much better things for them to work towards if given stewardship of the increasingly limited resources at our piteous little country’s disposal

    happyfeet (acd614)

  437. the best way to instill a sense of personal responsibility is to encourage intact two-parent families

    maybe but that’s the purview of parents and churches and neighbors and friends and society in general

    not the federal government

    How can you not be aware of all the ways the feds are making war on that assertion? If the feds have their way parents, churches, neighbors will have no say in the matter.

    And what is this society thingy you are talking about?

    DNC video: “Government is the only thing that we all belong to”

    Steve57 (60a887)

  438. elissa,

    There are a number of things government can do to encourage traditional values including two-parent families — especially tax breaks, restoring faith-based activities (including partnerships with government), undermining teachers’ unions (something that’s already happening in some parts of the country), and better job-promoting policies (hf is right about jobs being part of the answer). But IMO the first step is realizing social issues matter. If we abdicate social issues, things will never change and will only get worse.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  439. Hence the Julia project, or Michelle’s ‘Barack will not allow you to remain uninvolved, we must learn new ways, a new form of history’ we may call it marxism or fascism, but at it’s heart, it is a feudal project they are designing,

    narciso (3fec35)

  440. but Mr. Rahe wants to swing the pendulum to the opposite extreme, and I don’t think that would prove to be a fruitful pursuit

    The opposite extreme would be a small government not interfering with society and attempting quash social values as established by institutions like families and churches. Which would probably socially conservative because that’s the only way you can survive without the nanny state.

    For instance, before the welfare state your family was your “social security” and only rich bohemians could really do what they wanted, like have all the kids they could without a husband and expect somebody else would support them.

    What other extreme are you imagining, Mr. Feets? That he’s proposing we have Saudi morality police running around beating women for showing too much ankle and toppling walls on gays like the Taliban?

    Steve57 (60a887)

  441. I chuckle at the thought that happyfeet is doing an act, putting on a masquerade, and in reality — beyond the computer screen — writes like (but doesn’t necessarily think like) a George F. Will or talks like a William F. Buckley.

    As for one more reason why I take conservatism (social and not just economic) more seriously is because of information like the following. IOW, I originally bought into the idea of “if I could choose to be a certain way, why would I choose to be…?!” But when there apparently is a lot more “B” in the “GLBT” among no less than females, then many people’s assumptions need to go by the wayside.

    I now realize the old-fogey wisdom (or boring common sense) dating back eons — and symbolized by stories like the one about the city of Sodom and one of its residents, Lot — was more on-target that I was aware of.

    shine.yahoo.com, YourTango.com, Oct 14, 2011:

    Like most women, I have no shame in admitting that I find other females attractive. I have even admitted to being open to experimentation (“Of course I would sleep with Halle Berry! It’s a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity”). For women, it’s perfectly acceptable to be a little bi-curious (cue every male fantasy), and according to the latest research, it’s the norm.

    A new study reveals that women’s sexual preferences tend to be a gray area (yep, identity confusion wasn’t just for those college dorm days). In fact, researchers at Boise State University found that in a group of heterosexual women, 60 percent were physically interested in other women, 45 percent made out with a woman in the past, and 50 percent had fantasies about the same sex.

    I fall into that 60 percent.

    Sometimes when I catch myself staring at a beautiful woman in the grocery store, I wonder about my own sexuality. I’m not supposed to like girls! (At least according to society.) Would I date a woman? I’m not sure, but I am attracted to the beauty of other women – and they’re so much easier to understand psychologically than men. We girls form deep relationships through friendships, which some say are the basis of love. And personally I believe that emotional connection and physical attraction are linked – i.e., guys tend to get cuter in our eyes if they’re genuinely nice.

    In addition, sexuality gets more, not less, fluid with time – yet more proof that experimentation isn’t just for college. In a study conducted by Diamond, the older a woman was, the more likely she was to describe her sexual preference as “unlabeled”. “We have this idea that sexuality gets clearer and more defined as time goes on,” says Diamond. “We consider that a sign of maturity to figure out who you are. I’ve seen it’s really the opposite.”

    And of course, the media plays a role in girl-on-girl attraction, only fueling the fire of our confusion. Not only have pop stars like Lady Gaga made bisexuality mainstream, but women can’t help but ogle beautiful women – they are everywhere we turn. Neuroscientist Ogi Ogas, Ph.D., analyzed billions of web information including web searches, erotic websites and e-books, and found that women are just as likely to search for “sexy pictures of Ryan Gosling” as “sexy pictures of Jessica Alba.” How about that.

    ^ If the dynamics of personal behavior didn’t often come attached with liberal sentiments in general (IOW, if the pro-GLBT crowd wasn’t also overwhelmingly of the left), I would be more libertarian about such matters. For instance, there are Republicans like Lynn Cheney who has written books — Frontier American fiction — in which one of her characters is described as being similar to what’s described above. But more times than not, feel-good sexuality and rampant do-your-own-thang leftism are mutually inclusive, so it’s virtually impossible to have one without the other.

    We’re well on our way — covering lots of miles now — traveling on that road paved with good intentions.

    Mark (767b53)

  442. For instance, before the welfare state your family was your “social security” and only rich bohemians could really do what they wanted, like have all the kids they could without a husband and expect somebody else would support them.

    Awkward phrasing. I meant while rich Bohemians could have kids as single parents, most could not emulate them because they didn’t have the same resources.

    Until WIC, SNAP, TAMP, Medicaid…

    Steve57 (60a887)

  443. happyfeet:

    I don’t think Team R would get very far with that, and there’s much better things for them to work towards …

    Are you essentially saying that young people will never give up the sexual and personal freedoms they enjoy, so we might as well stop trying? If so, I agree that’s true, but only as long as taxpayers are funding their lifestyles. There won’t be enough money for everyone. My guess is young people will be among the first to see the payments stop.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  444. government shouldn’t be in the business of rewarding model families and punishing non-traditional ones Mr. Steve

    That’s what Santorum wants to do and I suspect Rahe would agree.

    So yes, a small government not interfering with society and attempting quash social values as established by institutions like families and churches sounds lovely.

    But having government be in the business of rectifying “our abandonment of chastity as a norm” is overreaching.

    That’s not the government’s place and it’s not at all in consonance with a limited government philosophy.

    happyfeet (acd614)

  445. government shouldn’t be in the business of rewarding model families and punishing non-traditional ones Mr. Steve

    They should be in the business of the former, and not in the business of the latter.

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  446. *to* quash social values I mean

    happyfeet (acd614)

  447. But having government be in the business of rectifying “our abandonment of chastity as a norm” is overreaching.

    Why? Government effectively promoted our abandonment of chastity by providing for children of unwed mothers. The intention may have been noble but the result was to promote more unwed mothers to have children. Why shouldn’t government have to rectify this?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  448. I don’t agree Mr. Ejercito, about the rewarding

    virtue is its own reward!

    and a lot of people in non-traditional families get there through no fault of their own

    government needs to settle down and stop using the tax code as a plantation foreman’s whip

    it’s demeaning to everyone involved

    happyfeet (acd614)

  449. He doesn’t get what the spendings are about, in part why Obama worked so hard to return welfare reform to the pre 1994 status quo ante,

    narciso (3fec35)

  450. Mr. Feets, if the government was small and limited it wouldn’t be rewarding or punishing anybody.

    It would merely letting people learn by their own mistakes. Choices have consequences. Unless you have a nanny state; then some third party pays for the consequences.

    The problem, Mr. Feets, is that you’ve accepted the way the libs have framed the issue.

    Obama wouldn’t want his daughters “punished” with a baby, would he? By punished he means learning that choices have consequences.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  451. I think government should stop providing for children of unwed mothers

    also it should stop providing for children of wed mothers

    it should be getting out of the providing business in a big way

    happyfeet (acd614)

  452. The federal government uses taxpayers’ money that effectively encourages single mothers to procreate. That makes it everyone’s business.

    What you “tax” you get less of;
    What you “reward” you get more of.

    Immutable laws are just so damn inconvenient.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  453. But, right now, government essentially funds unwed mothers and not married mothers, so it skews the market.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  454. You can say government shouldn’t do either, happyfeet, but the reality is it picks winners (unwed mothers) and losers (married mothers). Thus, government effectively picks the social issues that will win and lose, too.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  455. We need to restore balance to this equation, instead of futilely wishing that it will all go away.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  456. DRJ@439–a government “could” do those things, sure and a responsible media could help immensely. But you’re a smart lady. Do you honestly think our current government has any reason to– or intention to–promote two parent families and faith based partnerships or undermine teachers’ unions? Do you think the few states which are taking a lead in this area can have enough of an impact or sufficient clout to effect change nationally before it all comes crashing down in a few short years? How much time do you think we actually have to turn it around, DRJ?

    elissa (a55268)

  457. But, right now, government essentially funds unwed mothers and not married mothers, so it skews the market.

    Married moms get tax benefits too they just look different than the EITC food stamp et cetera benefits the single loser moms get.

    And Team R can play with that if it ever gets a chance.

    But it doesn’t need to run a campaign based on rolling back the sexual revolution.

    That whole way of talking is self-defeating.

    happyfeet (acd614)

  458. government shouldn’t be in the business of rewarding model families and punishing non-traditional ones Mr. Steve

    Without the nanny state, reality is in the business of rewarding naturally occurring families and punishing non-traditional ones.

    The nanny state exists to shield people from reality and reward non-traditional families and punish traditional ones.

    That’s the choice.

    You’ve accepted the liberal strawman that conservatives want to use the same leviathan that they’ve created, just for the opposite purpose they’ve created it for.

    As opposed to just dismantling the whole thing, which is the reality of the situation.

    Obama understands this, which is why he has to lie about what would happen if conservatives succeeded.

    Obama Blasts GOP ‘You’re On Your Own Economics’

    In other words, “Everything for the state, nothing outside the state, nothing above the state.”

    No one would be on their own. If you dismantled the fascist apparatus people would find that out.

    Hence the HHS mandate to destroy religious charities, hospitals, schools, etc. If there are no alternatives to government for these things then no one can find out what Obama knows to be true.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  459. Obama understands this, which is why he has to lie about what would happen if conservatives succeeded.

    If The Left told the truth about what they intend, nobody would support them –
    at least to the extent that they do.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  460. you’ve accepted the liberal strawman that conservatives want to use the same leviathan that they’ve created, just for the opposite purpose they’ve created it for

    yes that was my takeaway from the Santorum campaign

    happyfeet (acd614)

  461. elissa,

    Candidly, given the last election, I’m close to giving up on the United States. It may be too late, even if a Reagan-like transformer shows up in 2016 or 2020. There’s just too much to undo and I fear we will become (or have already) a John Edwards-type “Two Americas.” That will crush the opportunity ethos of our nation.

    However, I have modest hope for the red states. If the federal government and the blue states continue their current path — and, at this point, I admit they probably will — then I expect to see some red states talk about secession.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  462. Filed under It’s For the Children™

    “The fliers touted new ballfields, science labs and modern classrooms. They didn’t mention the crushing debt or the investment bank that stood to make millions.

    In early 2008, residents of Placentia and Yorba Linda approved a $200 million school construction bond after reading those fliers and being assured repeatedly that “their money will be spent wisely.”What happened instead was that Measure A led to a debt so large and long lasting that it has mortgaged the future of their children’s children.

    With no public discussion, the school board had hired George K. Baum & Co. and its staff of political strategists to help push the measure through so the district could continue an ambitious building spree.

    After the election, the board allowed the bank to sell some of the costliest bonds ever issued by a California public agency. Just one $22 million borrowing from 2011 will cost taxpayers nearly 13 times that amount – $280 million – to repay…”

    http://www.ocregister.com/articles/bonds-496091-school-bank.html

    Colonel Haiku (90ec41)

  463. ==Without the nanny state, reality is in the business of rewarding naturally occurring families and punishing non-traditional ones.
    The nanny state exists to shield people from reality and reward non-traditional families and punish traditional ones==

    Absolutely. Correct.
    And we currently live in a nanny state. Soo, the all-important question nobody seems to want to touch on is: what is the practical proposal for getting back to even a semi- non-nanny state before TSHTF? That’s a lot of dismantling. No? Especially hard when the “good guys” are not in charge of the government. How much time do you think there is before TSHTF?

    elissa (a55268)

  464. Mr. Steve I get what you’re saying

    and a lot of what DRJ is saying

    and I’ll tell you guys that yes yes welfare reform and such are on the table and that’s fine and let’s have that be what we mean when we talk about social issues

    but that is not what the lifeydoodles are passionate about

    they’re not passionate and vocal about the welfare reform and about the impacts of welfare on the family

    that’s way way way down their list after about 100 different nuanced takes on the abortion holocaust and the gay menace

    and that’s just sad

    what do they think it means when America elects a gay-marriage-loving abortion cheerleader?

    it means that all of the energy and shrieky volume they’ve expended on their flagship issues

    has been a huge waste of their time

    nobody’s buying what they’re selling anymore

    happyfeet (acd614)

  465. sad meaning shallow

    happyfeet (acd614)

  466. Obama Blasts GOP ‘You’re On Your Own Economics’

    if the GOP had practiced “You’re Own Your Own Economics” back in 2008, there would not have been a bank bailout.

    Of course, given the capacity for cruelty that humanity is capable of, people should be lucky if the government merely left them “on [their] own”. It is far less than what humanity actually deserves

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  467. nobody’s buying what they’re selling anymore and what’s worse is

    their obsessiveness with gays and abortion hopelessly scrambles any attempt to align Team R with a philosophy of limited and minimally-intrusive governance

    cause nobody’s buying that anymore either

    they’re buying fascism

    and it’s a worry

    happyfeet (acd614)

  468. However, I have modest hope for the red states.

    I’m not sure how the combination of demographics and, in turn, the prevailing politics — and culture — in your part of the US will play out. Based on the description you gave of your community, its population is diverse, with a fairly large cross-section of Latinos. Residents who I’m guessing either immigrated directly from, or have close connections with, Mexico—or a situation that’s similar to what’s going on in California.

    The more politically nonsensical a community or society becomes, the more important its populace becomes. IOW, if a large number of people in any place are skilled, resourceful, talented, reliable and self-starting, then even foolish, self-destructive politicians and government policies may be but a glancing blow. But if far too many people in such a place are average to below average, THEN the picture changes and one may be looking at an indefinite (or permanent) period of aimlessness, fecklessness, mediocrity, corruption and decline.

    I observe the long history of Mexico — certainly the various disreputable aspects of it dating back quite awhile, if not for generations — or farther south, Argentina (with its mostly European demographics, but no less notorious traits), and compare that with the political trends straight out of urban America (read: ultra-ultra blue, true blue), and I say, “Oh-oh, Houston, we’ve got a problem.”

    Mark (767b53)

  469. nobody’s buying what they’re selling anymore

    But does that really bother you? My sense is you don’t like the leftist tilt of this society, but, at the same time, you certainly seem far more bothered by the idea of this nation becoming too conservative.

    Your reaction would have been understandable decades ago, and I’d probably have shared it (eg, a time when famous wealthy people, who happened to be black, couldn’t buy homes in certain neighborhoods, couldn’t stay in certain hotels, couldn’t eat at certain restaurants, etc), but not today.

    Mark (767b53)

  470. I’m hungry Mr. Mark I haven’t had breakfast yet

    happyfeet (acd614)

  471. When talking about Hispanics especially in Tejas and California it is important not to “guess” or get tied up in the idea that everybody’s probably a recent arrival from Mexico and a leech. If I’m not mistaken both Texas and California have had well integrated citizens of Spanish descent for two hundred years or so. I believe they think they’ve paid their dues and that they’re pretty much “Americans” by now. They do not appreciate being casually lumped with the illegals.

    elissa (a55268)

  472. 464. Soo, the all-important question nobody seems to want to touch on is: what is the practical proposal for getting back to even a semi- non-nanny state before TSHTF? That’s a lot of dismantling. No? Especially hard when the “good guys” are not in charge of the government. How much time do you think there is before TSHTF?

    Comment by elissa (a55268) — 2/23/2013 @ 10:57 am

    I think an important first step is to demonstrate to the Libertarians that, whether they know it or not, they’re the handmaidens of the intrusive regulatory welfare state. I don’t think that’d be so hard to do.

    For instance, if you watched the Coulter/Stossel vid you may have seen a young man describing libertarianism as a “third way” when it came to gay marriage. He believes government should be out of the marriage business.

    I would have pointed out that we had government out of the marriage business for about 2000 years, at least when it came to defining marriage (in England [and consequently for the purposes of US law]) government got into the marriage business in 1600). And you know what you got? Marriage between one man and one woman. As a matter of fact, you had two thousand years full of generations who would have looked at you if you said two men could get married like you were nucking futs.

    To get gay marriage, whether you know it or not, you need to get government more heavily involved into marriage. Not the other way around.

    And what do they mean about getting government out of the marriage business? If they’re going to force people to treat gay marriage as if it’s equal to (I try hard not to say traditional because that’s playing into their hands) natural marriage then guess what? Government’s back in the marriage business. Are they going to force parents to will all their kids equal amounts of money, or can parents decide based upon their religious values to only will to the kids who gave them grandkids? Are they going to force business owners who are willing to cater a wedding receptions if it’s a man and a woman to also cater a reception when it’s a man and a man?

    If they’re not willing to do that, then they don’t really want government out of the marriage business. They are in fact liberal statists.

    Sorry to keep harping on the gay marriage thing. Other than that and drugs what is libertarianism about, again?

    Steve57 (60a887)

  473. feets, i think the lifeydoodles are interested in finding a place where they can draw a line in the sand and say STOP and then everybody stops and we can catch a breath
    since people having children out of wedlock already appears to be the norm no use drawing that line
    the line about having to do something worthwhile to get your benefits was done under Clinton and erased under the one
    the line of killing preborn people was crossed years ago, but too many people have this guilt thing about babies being treated worse than puppies so they do still try to draw that line
    and it wasn’t lifedoodles who said no no no we can’t let ss couple marry anymore like they’ve been doing all along most lifeydoodles are happy to say you two go do what you want to in private and we’ll leave you alone, just don’t tell us we have to say it is a good thing and we approve when we don’t

    America is not a hateful nation, though it is very flawed. because it is not a hateful nation, people want to be kind and help people out of jams, especially when not their fault like a factory closing down because of the price of steel in Japan or something
    but once it is no longer a person helping a person, but some “thing” helping a person, the person loses a sense of responsibility, they think obama has a stash of cash he got from somewhere and he is going to give it all out santa claus style. children find out at some point that what santa gives actually gets paid for by mom or dad or granny or someone they know, so they can’t have everything from santa
    the huddled masses that once were free haven’t figured out that obamasanta is just taking their money to buy them presents, and keeping a lot of it along the way

    the idea of shutting down private charities, which at least try to put a human face and some responsibility, for the sake of all beneficent big brother is about as Luciferian as one can get

    and I’m writing this way because imitation is supposed to be flattering
    and Painted Jaguar isn’t up to helping out

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  474. That’s true, elissa, at least where I live. Some have lived here a lot longer than my forebears, and we came in the 1800′s.

    One more thing about the United States: I’m not pessimistic about America, even though I think America will become more of a European-style socialist nation. Just as the nation I grew up in was different than the nation my grandmother grew up in, it will be different for my children and grandchildren — but they will adjust and it will seem normal to them.

    What makes me sad is that America is trending away from the land of opportunity for all. Now it’s the land of opportunity for certain people. I might have liked that in my youth or as a young professional, when my goal was doing better than the other students or colleagues.

    But I don’t feel that way anymore. Instead of wanting to succeed more than the next guy, I learned America works better when everyone has opportunities and does well. A rising tide really does lift all boats and makes things better for everyone.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  475. Well Alinsky did dedicate it ‘Rules for Radicals’ to Lucifer, the first rebel, as he put it,

    narciso (3fec35)

  476. Libertarianism really can’t exist outside of the regulatory nanny state. They imagine that if government gets out of the business of telling people what to do, then there’d be a vacuum that won’t be filled; people won’t establish social institutions that do the same thing.

    They always have. You can go back as far as you want. The Romans, the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Japanese, the Chinese, whatever. Family, tribe, culture, religion did what the liberal statists want to do. No one ever got to define for themselves what marriage is and insist everyone accept it.

    I suppose the drug thing is easier to tackle. Sure, you can do all the drugs you want. If you’re willing to die because there’s no nanny state to save you from the consequences of your actions. Or, if you need help, you have to turn instead of the nanny state to some Salvation Army type charity. And then live by their rules.

    Only the nanny state will help you out without insisting on certain standards in return.

    If they want to do drugs but don’t want any consequences, they’re liberal statists, not libertarians.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  477. maybe the problem isn’t so much where they want to draw the line Mr. Dr. it’s that they want to use the Republican party as their tool for drawing it

    it’s no longer an appropriate tool for that, if it ever was*

    this is an assertion and I am asserting it assertively

    happyfeet (acd614)

  478. i forgot my second asterisk

    it’s cause of I’m getting weak from hunger I bet

    happyfeet (acd614)

  479. 472. If I’m not mistaken both Texas and California have had well integrated citizens of Spanish descent for two hundred years or so. I believe they think they’ve paid their dues and that they’re pretty much “Americans” by now. They do not appreciate being casually lumped with the illegals.

    Comment by elissa (a55268) — 2/23/2013 @ 11:33 am

    No, they don’t. Consequently La Raza type groups lean on them pretty hard for not supporting “their” people.

    You’ve got to be a pretty strong Tejano to insist Mexicans aren’t there people as their families went to a lot of trouble to successfully revolt against them.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  480. When talking about Hispanics especially in Tejas and California it is important not to “guess” or get tied up in the idea that everybody’s probably a recent arrival from Mexico and a leech.

    Then the situation there is noticeably different from the situation in California, where a huge percentage of the Latino population over the past few decades is made up of immigrants. However, all things being equal, any place or society automatically will be more stable or reliable if its attitudes (ie, the socio-political views of its people, public and private) is sensible and down-to-earth. There’s a sense of that in this report:

    nytimes.com, February 21, 2013:

    A new analysis released Thursday of nationwide test results in the five most populous states — California, Florida, Illinois, New York and Texas — shows that depending on where they live, Hispanic students’ academic performance varies widely.

    According to the report, which examines data from the National Assessment of Educational Progress, often cited as the most reliable standard in academic testing, Hispanic students accounted for more than half of all eighth graders in California in 2011, the highest proportion in the country. But only 14 percent of those students were proficient on eighth-grade reading tests administered by the United States Department of Education.

    In Florida, 27 percent of Hispanic students (who represent just over a quarter of its public school students) scored at the proficient level or above. And in Illinois, 23 percent of Hispanic eighth graders were proficient in reading.

    In mathematics, Hispanic eighth graders in California similarly underperformed their peers in other states, with just 13 percent hitting the proficiency mark, compared with 22 percent in Florida and 31 percent in Texas, where Hispanics make up more than half the eighth-grade student population.

    California’s struggles were not confined to Hispanic students. Over all, the state’s fourth and eighth graders underperformed the national average in reading, math and science. One bright spot in the state came from gains shown by black students in fourth-grade reading and math scores over two decades.

    Florida led the five states in improving fourth- and eighth-grade reading scores between 1992 and 2011, although average reading scores among the state’s eighth graders just reached the national average in 2011. Florida’s fourth graders also led the five largest states in gains in math scores, while eighth graders still scored below the national average in 2011.

    These results “validate the efforts of Florida teachers and the focus the state has put on academic achievement in a state that is as diverse as this,” Tony Bennett, the newly appointed commissioner of the Florida Department of Education, said in a telephone interview.

    Mr. Bennett also acknowledged that while the state had outperformed other large states in pushing achievement among Hispanic and black students, white students either trailed their peers in the rest of the country or were just at the national average. “People look at these almost as a diagnosis, and I don’t see it that way,” he said. “I see this much more in terms of a checkup and where we have to go from here.”

    Texas showed the strongest advances in eighth-grade math scores since 1990, and was the only state among the five whose eighth-grade math and science scores were above the national average. In a statement, Michael L. Williams, commissioner of the Texas Education Agency, said the results “speak to an emphasis Texas has placed on a critical core subject.”

    New York students’ scores appeared to be influenced in particular by whether they were enrolled in city or suburban schools. In eighth-grade reading, for example, the percentage of urban students who were proficient was 26 percent, compared with 43 percent of suburban children.

    ^ California does lead the pack in a notable, heartwarming way: It’s public-school textbooks are now required to mention famous people who are GLBT.

    Onward and upward.

    Mark (767b53)

  481. intervention number one, males are responsible for support of their children
    if they can’t find a job, put them in a work camp CCC sort of ish
    If you are going to give money away, at least get something for it
    no money to single women with kids unless the father is ID’ed and held accountable

    all them young dudes hangin’ on the corner won’t be anymore, except the ones that know how to behave responsibly

    18 yo’s need to learn if they want to act like an adult they will be held accountable like an adult
    the 15 yo’s will watch and learn

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  482. I think the gays are much better off with me in charge than people who make apologies for Hassan and cover-up ritual beheadings in NJ.

    Who are those people?

    their obsessiveness with gays and abortion hopelessly scrambles any attempt to align Team R with a philosophy of limited and minimally-intrusive governance

    Does not the “homophobe” ™ population vastly outnumber the gay population?

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  483. if they can’t find a job, put them in a work camp CCC sort of ish

    11th century Europe used to have such a system called the manorial system.

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  484. There is no seperation of mosque and state, allowed, as Bloomberg and Christie prove,

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/02/the-vast-right-left-wing-conspiracy/#comments

    narciso (3fec35)

  485. Just as the nation I grew up in was different than the nation my grandmother grew up in, it will be different for my children and grandchildren — but they will adjust and it will seem normal to them.

    Your comment about how people learn to adjust makes me think of the mindset reflected in this:

    latimes.com, February 20, 2013: Californians’ optimism about the state’s future is down slightly since September, but is still higher than it has been for most of the past decade, according to a new Field Poll.

    The survey found that 48% of registered voters say California is heading in the right direction compared with 44% who believe the state is on the wrong track. That’s down slightly from a September survey in which 52% of state voters said they were confident in the state’s direction.

    State voters give high marks to President Obama, whose approval ratings are higher than at any point since his first year in office. Sixty-two percent of those surveyed said they approve of the job the president is doing.

    Obama’s job rating reached a low point in September 2011, when the Field Poll put his approval rating at 46%.

    California’s view of Congress has also improved slightly, but is still generally negative. Just 23% of Californians surveyed said they approve of its performance. About three times as many — 68% — disapprove of the legislative body’s performance.

    A big shout out and “hello” from the Golden State to Cristina Kirchner in Buenos Aires!

    Mark (767b53)

  486. 353. Having read Tacitus and Suetonius it really is embarrassing we got here in half the time.
    Comment by gary gulrud (dd7d4e) — 2/22/2013 @ 9:24 pm
    And the founders were familiar with Gibbon, Livy was also someone they were aware of, Sallust might
    have been reminded of Catiline,

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 2/22/2013 @ 9:28 pm

    There you go again, rubbing it in to us science majors that took Science Fiction as Literature and History of Science as humanities electives.

    Painted Jaguar: Don’t tell MD I told you this, but somebody once asked him if he had read any of Durant and Durant and he said, “No, I’ve only seen their videos on MTV”.
    I may not know what a “MTV” is, but my mummy, ever so smart as well as kind, would read from Durant and Durant to me when it was too hot and steamy to play down here by the deep, dark, turbid waters of the Amazon.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  487. 11th century Europe used to have such a system called the manorial system.
    Comment by Michael Ejercito (2e0217) — 2/23/2013 @ 12:12 pm

    And there was no welfare system or guys hanging out on corners selling drugs.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  488. California does lead the pack in a notable, heartwarming way: It’s public-school textbooks are now required to mention famous people who are GLBT.

    Onward and upward.

    Comment by Mark (767b53) — 2/23/2013 @ 12:06 pm

    Hey, that’s just the kind of edumification that’ll make us more competitive in the world economy.

    Besides (he, he, he) what sort of objective standards can you come up with to tell if the drunks and incompetents in the teachers unions are doing it wrong. Math and science are so unfair in that regard.

    So let’s suck more capital out of the private sector so Barack Obama can get his “stimulus” money to put more public sector employee union members who can help the unions kick back their dues to Democrats teachers into the classroom.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  489. “We can’t wait!”

    Steve57 (60a887)

  490. 486.

    The survey found that 48% of registered voters say California is heading in the right direction compared with 44% who believe the state is on the wrong track. That’s down slightly from a September survey in which 52% of state voters said they were confident in the state’s direction.

    State voters give high marks to President Obama, whose approval ratings are higher than at any point since his first year in office. Sixty-two percent of those surveyed said they approve of the job the president is doing.

    A big shout out and “hello” from the Golden State to Cristina Kirchner in Buenos Aires!

    Comment by Mark (767b53) — 2/23/2013 @ 12:16 pm

    This guy had some pretty high approval ratings, too. So keep that in mind.

    Lawyer says former Bell, Calif., Mayor Oscar Hernandez was too illiterate and uneducated to realize he was misappropriating public funds to pay his $100,000-a-year part-time salary

    It’s a novel defense, but it has nothing to do with books.

    Accused of misappropriating city funds, former Bell, Calif., Mayor Oscar Hernandez argued in court Wednesday that his own illiteracy and lack of education kept him from knowing that he was breaking the law.

    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ex-mayor-cites-illiteracy-illegal-pay-case-article-1.1270481#ixzz2LkyeLOL3

    Apparently he didn’t finish grade school. But people liked him! He’d walk around town and listen to people’s problems. Then screw them and make their problems worse by joining the city council and city manager in a scheme to rip off their tax money to the extent they couldn’t provide services.

    Yeah, Obama!

    Steve57 (60a887)

  491. Comment by Steve57 (60a887) — 2/23/2013 @ 12:40 pm

    What is that saying about people getting the government they deserve? They really put somebody in for mayor that didn’t finish grade school?

    There may be many wonderful and highly skilled people who didn’t finish grade school, and maybe even he had a very bad time with the family- but I would have thought a GED would have been a good thing.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  492. Yes, he knew enough to cash the check,

    narciso (3fec35)

  493. Heh.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  494. O/T, but about “Defense” from Nat.Review via PowerLine:

    Peter Kirsanow on the impending confirmation of “Caligula’s Horse” as Secretary of Defense:
    Just because they’re laughing in Tehran, Pyongyang, Moscow, and some hovel in Mali doesn’t mean this nomination is funny.

    Are there any possibly valid reasons for Obama to nominate Hagel other than to undermine the military? really.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  495. No, although I think Obama is also using this nomination to send a further message to the generals that he’s in charge, not them and not the SecDef.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  496. 492. I would have thought a GED would have been a good thing.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/23/2013 @ 12:56 pm

    Bad idea, Doc. That would have created a paper trail and destroyed his alibi.

    On a different note, remember “we can’t judge.”

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2013/02/15/mass-dept-issues-rules-transgender-pupils/L0rr4AYIwCKH33z0hxcGTL/story.html

    To be honest, I came across this the other day and it was one of those things where it’s like, “This has to be just some internet rumor.”

    Mass. Ed Dept issues rules on transgender pupils

    BOSTON (AP) — The Massachusetts Department of Education on Friday issued directives for handling transgender students, including allowing them to use the bathrooms or play on the sports teams that correspond to the gender with which they identify.

    …The document said whether a student identifies as a boy or girl is up to the student or, in the case of younger students, the parents.

    In all cases, ‘‘the student may access the restroom, locker room, and changing facility that corresponds to the student’s gender identity,’’ it said.

    The guidance said some students may feel uncomfortable sharing those facilities with a transgender student but this ‘‘discomfort is not a reason to deny access to the transgender student.’’

    Yes, for some reason the Mass. Dept. of Ed. finds completely unfathomable some kids may be uncomfortable.

    …The guidance also addresses what to do if other students consistently and intentionally refuse to refer to a transgendered student by the name or sex they identify as: ‘‘It should not be tolerated and can be grounds for student discipline.’’

    …Scott said disciplining students who won’t acknowledge a student’s gender identity is appropriate because it amounts to bullying.

    Got that? If your 4th grade girl doesn’t want to share a locker room with an 7th grade boy, she’s bullying him.

    ‘‘The reality is that it’s about creating an inclusive environment for all students to learn,’’ he said.end of story marker

    I can’t imagine anything more inclusive than a school system that demands rigid conformity to their agenda upon pain of punishment, even and especially if it goes directly against whatever values you try to instill into your kids at home.

    “When an opponent declares, “I will not come over to your side,” I calmly say, “Your child belongs to us already… What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community.”
    - Adolph Hitler

    Yeah, I’m really worried about the Paul Rahe types swinging the pendulum the other way.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  497. What does this have to do with the 2nd Amendment?

    If you’re going to force a system of organized child abuse upon an unwilling populace, you can’t leave them with arms.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  498. This guy had some pretty high approval ratings, too. So keep that in mind.

    “The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves…”

    Reuters.com, February 22, 2013:

    A stagnant economy and one of the world’s highest inflation rates are making Argentina’s annual wage talks thornier than ever this year just as President Cristina Fernandez turns her attention to mid-term elections. Fernandez, who hails from the left of the Peronist party that has dominated Argentine politics since the late 1940s, has an increasingly difficult relationship with the unions and that is raising the risk of strikes ahead of the October elections.

    [A] sharp slowdown coupled with inflation forecast by private economists to reach 30 percent this year is exposing cracks in her alliance with government-friendly unionists. Galloping prices and a rising tax burden are eroding consumers’ purchasing power, and even allied union leaders are unwilling to accept a 20 percent ceiling the government and companies want to set for wage claims.

    Inflation in Latin America’s third-biggest economy sped up slightly to 25 percent in 2012, according to private economists, while economic activity grew a meager 1.9 percent, suggesting a decade-long boom has finally sputtered out.

    Referring to the upcoming wage negotiations, Fernandez called in January for “a bit of good sense,” saying inflation was not “a natural phenomenon, but something that all sectors play a part in.” She seldom mentions the word inflation and dismisses criticism from economists, consumer groups and the International Monetary Fund of the state’s official consumer price data, which put last year’s inflation rate at just 10.8 percent.

    Shunning orthodox monetary policy recipes to cool prices, Fernandez instead forged a two-month price freeze accord with supermarket chains and appliance stores.

    In a sign of what may lie ahead, the education ministry last week made teachers a non-negotiable offer of 22 percent to be paid in three stages over the course of the coming year. They swiftly rejected the raise and called a strike. Hospital workers in Buenos Aires province, home to nearly 40 percent of the country’s population, have vowed to walk off the job on Monday after the cash-strapped provincial government warned it cannot meet their demands.

    [Fernandez's] positive image was 30.7 percent in a January survey by the Management & Fit polling firm, up slightly from December but far below the 59.1 percent of February 2012. The opposition’s persistent weakness, however, and the fact that Fernandez also did badly in 2009 mid-term elections before easily winning re-election two years later might help her allies strengthen their grip on Congress.

    ^ I always keep in mind what’s going on in nations like that. It’s a reminder that no matter how bad things can become — no matter how foolish an electorate and its politicians are or will soon be — a society can become much worse. Far worse than presumed. And I don’t see any reason why we in the US are somehow immune.

    Human nature is human nature, here or elsewhere.

    Mark (767b53)

  499. To be honest, I came across this the other day and it was one of those things where it’s like, “This has to be just some internet rumor.”

    Or something from The Onion.

    Mark (767b53)

  500. Mark, that was my second reaction. My first was that it was totally believable.

    I’ve actually stopped reading the Onion. What can they come up with to rival what the Mass. Dept. of Ed. can come up with? Or the liberals in general?

    But hey, that Oscar Hernandez guy and Barack Obama dude! They’re doing such a great job, aren’t they?

    Si se puede!

    Steve57 (60a887)

  501. Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/23/2013 @ 1:27 pm
    I think Obama has been eliminating opposition in the military about as well as Egypt’s new ruler.

    Comment by Steve57 (60a887) — 2/23/2013 @ 1:36 pm
    Like I said, the lifeydoodles are still trying to find a place to draw a line.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  502. but I would have thought a GED would have been a good thing.

    Personally, I’ll have more confidence in a high-school dropout running for office who is philosophically/ideologically sensible (ie, of the right) than a Harvard-trained brainiac who loves — just loves — himself some of that down-home, modern-day liberalism.

    Similarly, I’ll have more confidence in a truly, sincerely, honestly, conservative GLBTer on the ballot than a leftwing heterosexual, who’s as straight as can be.

    Mark (767b53)

  503. I can’t find the motivation to read National Review or Hugh Hewitt since November 6th. Have I missed anything?

    Colonel Haiku (90ec41)

  504. Doc, let’s all repeat after our illustrious GOP establishment pols.

    “This is not the hill to die on.”

    It’s never the hill to die on.

    Besides, we can’t judge. We can be judged, of course. We can be called every name in the book. Islamophobic, homophobic, racist, sexist, anti-science, and un-American. But we can’t judge.

    So let’s just drop all these social issues.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  505. Or the liberals in general?

    Steve57, we’re living in the era when life imitates art. The Twilight Zone over and over again.

    Mark (767b53)

  506. 504. I can’t find the motivation to read National Review or Hugh Hewitt since November 6th. Have I missed anything?

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (90ec41) — 2/23/2013 @ 1:56 pm

    I believe they’re still giving Obama credit for wanting to come up with some common sense compromise on all sorts of issues.

    King like how Krauthammer believes Obama doesn’t want to gut the military because he’s the CinC and thus responsible for national security.

    You know, just like he’s responsible for the economy.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  507. *Kingda like…*

    Although “King like” is an appropriate phrase to use when discussing Obama because that’s obviously how he sees himself.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  508. Jonah Goldberg gave a good speech at AEI recently

    SPQR (768505)

  509. You are truly a good webmaster. The website loading pace is incredible. It seems that you are doing any unique trick. In addition, The contents are masterwork. you’ve done a magnificent task on this subject!

    Streaming CentovaCast (03e978)

  510. 502. Comment by Steve57 (60a887) — 2/23/2013 @ 1:36 pm
    Like I said, the lifeydoodles are still trying to find a place to draw a line.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 2/23/2013 @ 1:50 pm

    You’ve got to watch them thar lifeydoodles, Doc. You never know how far they’ll go.

    They may attempt to use the public school system to brainwash your kid that the global warming science isn’t settled or even (shudder) indoctrinate your kid into the pseudoscience of creationism while also teaching them the one true faith of evolution.

    They might even punish the kid for trying to resist the brainwashing cuz they’re not good tolerant people like liberals who are open-minded about differing points of view.

    Why, when I lived in the Bible belt the Xtofasists even made me buy all the beer I needed to get through the weekend by midnight Saturday because there were no alcohol sales allowed on Sunday.

    The heathens. I believe they may even have a secret plan to take away my rights and tell me how to live.

    That’s what the Democrats who know best what light bulbs I should buy and how many gallons per flush I ought to be allowed and that the world won’t let me heat my home or drive an SUV tell me, anyway.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  511. The public school system actually was very good at basic math and reading/spelling, but they did teach my daughter the polar bears were dying, and they even showed her a picture to prove it.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  512. MD in Philly, which turns out to be the result of actual fraud.

    SPQR (768505)

  513. SPQR, you could say that about global warming alchemy in general, not just the polar bears.

    Steve57 (60a887)

  514. I can’t imagine anything more inclusive than a school system that demands rigid conformity to their agenda upon pain of punishment, even and especially if it goes directly against whatever values you try to instill into your kids at home.

    Did anyone there even consider the fact that this sort of thing would lead to violence?

    I know for a fact that the students at the high school I attended, when I went there, would not have put up with this kind of shit. No boy would have dared asked to admit to feeling like a girl.

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  515. No one is more lifeydoodle than the Amish, living in relatively marginal land around the Midwest where I’ve loitered.

    Tend to have a dozen, bro is sort of a fringe of the Brethren that way.

    Interested in our lives outside their orbit? No, not beyond confirming their life’s path.

    In the Driftless area of WI, you can miss their presence entirely. What seem to be wooded boundaries between farms are deep swales that you drive down into on dirt roads.

    At the bottom they open up into safe little vales.

    Its a brief enough life, to pass it without commutes, road rage, bankruptcies, dissipative celebration, advanced degrees, .. , seems entirely valid from my vantage.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  516. SPQR,

    Yes indeed, which is why I intended it as an example of what they did not do right.
    Guess who my child wanted to believe? Yes, the teacher.

    My understanding is the person who took the picture, while a nature buff, was not happy her work was being used as scientific misinformation.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  517. Oh, and I realize this isn’t really a gay marriage thread but I thought I’d point this out:

    Obama considers intervening in gay marriage case

    Does it surprise anyone that Obama lied when he considered this a state issue back when he announced he was for gay marriage when nobody believed he opposed it?

    Gay marriage isn’t important to liberals for any other reason than it’s a means to destroy the concept of federalism. States will no longer be sovereign entities but merely administrative districts for the central government. That’s part of fundamentally transforming the country. To do that you can’t leave citizens armed, and you can’t leave states with a means to resist the program.

    He already filed the brief.

    http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/US-merits-brief-Windsor-2-22-12.pdf

    True, it does not directly argue that state marriage amendments violate the 14th Amendment. But there is no doubt that if the Supreme Court agrees with the primary arguments of that brief, it would, at a minimum, call into question the continued validity of state marriage amendments that also ban civil unions (e.g., Oklahoma, Virginia)

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  518. 517. Civil unions are fine in my estimation. And they should be valid for insurance death benefits.

    Gay priests and female girl’s team coaches are hard to preclude, on a number of grounds.

    Lifeydoodles who practice a religion of ‘moral rectitude’ are going to always be with us, like liberal moral Nazis.

    The advantage of the nanny state to liberals is they don’t have to give a rip about the starving drug addict they step over, its handled. Social workers, DMV clerks, postal carriers, enviornmental lab technicians all work in service of people.

    A free pass to sainthood.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)


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