Patterico's Pontifications

2/9/2013

How We Were Lied to About Health Care

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 6:11 pm

You already know Barack Obama lied to you about ObamaCare, telling his lawyers to claim in court that the charge for failing to buy health insurance was a “tax” — while telling you that it wasn’t.

But that’s not the only deception that was employed.

We were told there were almost 50 million uninsured in this country. We were told the U.S. does worse than countries with socialized medicine on issues like life expectancy and infant mortality, and other measures. In a speech to the AMA, for example, Obama said:

And yet, for all this spending, more of our citizens are uninsured; the quality of our care is often lower; and we aren’t any healthier. In fact, citizens in some countries that spend less than we do are actually living longer than we do. . . . We are not a nation that accepts nearly 46 million uninsured men, women, and children.

This is only one example of a flood of rhetoric telling us how inferior our health care system is.

The only problem is: it wasn’t true. Let me explain.

(This post shares some things I learned in an EconTalk podcast with Russ Roberts and Scott Atlas. I have received some good feedback from my posts spreading information I learn on Roberts’s podcasts, because it’s not widely discussed on the blogs. I hope you learn something from this.)

MYTH OF 50 MILLION UNINSURED

For example, we were told that there were as many as 50 million uninsured people in this country. But as Atlas explained, that number was greatly exaggerated.

First, as we discussed on this blog previously, somewhere between 10 and 15 million of that group are not U.S. citizens. That may be a problem, but it’s more of an immigration problem. That does not seem like a reason to turn our health care system upside down.

What about the remaining 35-40 million? Atlas explained that those numbers came from a survey conducted by the U.S. Census Bureau. And there were about 10 million people who said they didn’t have insurance, but did — as was discovered by cross-referencing the claims with medical records that contradicted the claims. For the most part, these people were using Medicaid, which they may not have considered insurance. Apparently people thought the question was asking about private insurance. But someone who is getting health care through Medicaid is hardly “uninsured.”

Then, it turns out that there was another group of about 13 million people who were eligible for public insurance (Medicaid, Medicare, SCHIP/CHIP) who are eligible for state health insurance but did not access it yet.

Ultimately, Atlas says “you are left with a population of less than 5% of people in the United States who don’t have insurance or who are not already eligible for current government insurance programs. I would not call that a crisis in the uninsured.” Indeed.

MYTH OF POOR LIFE EXPECTANCY IN U.S.

But weren’t we told that governments with more involvement in health care have better systems? For example, our life expectancy is pretty wretched according to most measures. Except Atlas points out, when you control for “suicide and immediate death from high speed motor accidents” — things where the health care system can’t save you anyway — all of a sudden we shoot to #1. Plus there is another thumb on the scale that has to do with society and not our health care system, because we are an obese society, and obesity lowers life expectancy quite a bit. But that’s not the health care system’s fault. It’s not your doctor’s fault you are fat. So if we’re #1 even with all the obesity, after you control for things doctors can’t fix, then we’re doing pretty well.

For what it’s worth, Atlas says that studies consistently show that patients with private insurance do better than those with Medicare. We’re skeptical of peer-reviewed studies, of course, and so is Roberts — but Atlas says the numbers are consistent even across easily comparable diagnoses like cancer in defined stages.

THE MYTH OF HIGH INFANT MORTALITY

But aren’t our numbers on infant mortality in the sewer? Aren’t countries with socialized medicine doing better? Not so much. As Atlas explains:

[I]n the United States there are many differences. One important one is that we count every birth. And birth is defined as any sign of life. Actually, ironically, using the very strict criteria defined by the World Health Organization (WHO)–we count any heart rate, any respiration, no matter how premature the infant, no matter how small the infant, no matter how immediate the death is. Other countries, including many civilized countries, countries that we think of as similar to the United States, don’t count births as live births if the baby does not survive for, say, 24 hours.

That skyrockets not only the infant mortality numbers but the life expectancy numbers. If you’re averaging in lives that last only minutes, that tends to drag down the average quite a bit.

OTHER MEASURES

Atlas says in the U.S. we have far better access to, and outcomes from, hip replacement, knee replacement, cataract surgery, and similar procedures. While the greater access (and speedy availability) of such procedures can cost more, it also prevents other still more costly problems.

Fundamentally, we were lied to in countless ways to get ObamaCare. We’re stuck with it now, apparently. But not based on the truth.

UPDATE: Post is edited to change the sentence that originally read: “First, as we discussed on this blog previously, somewhere between 10 and 15 million of that group are illegal immigrants.” Reviewing the transcript of the podcast, that’s not what Atlas says; he says between 10 and 15 million are not U.S. citizens.

62 Responses to “How We Were Lied to About Health Care”

  1. Ding.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  2. I always learn from your posts, Patterico, but this is an especially valuable series.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  3. It’s not so much that we were lied to, it’s that many didn’t have access to the truth.

    This and our current “Crisis du Jour” (gun control, Benghazi, Hagel, Menendez et al) are occurring before our very eyes and no one seems to care.

    This is because of the State Media having decided they will control the volume, they will control the content and they will control the country through lies, obfuscation and outright censorship.

    Turns out 1984 and Big Brother can only exist if the State Media allows them to.

    This MUST BE FIXED. Somehow. I don’t have the answers. (well I would if I had like a billion dollars or so and still managed to remain a fiscon and socon)

    God help us the problems we have could be fixed if we all could agree on a solution but we can’t because 75% of the people are being lied to and they can’t come to a reasonable solution without the facts.

    Conservatives have to face the fact that until the State Media is either controlled, bankrupted or coopted (or most unlikely; wakes up to the dangerous and despicable acts they have committed against the people of this nation.), we will never have a fair discussion about ANYTHING.

    Coulter had it correct; how could anyone vote for a Democrat without the State Media’s assistance.

    Jcw46 (f33482)

  4. That’s very telling, about the Medicaid recipients who said they had no health insurance. I wonder if the reason so many of them fail to make the connection that it is health insurance is because they so frequently pay nothing for it.

    In Mass. most of the Medicaid plans have no annual deductible, zero co-pay for office visits, zero co-pay for emergency room visits, a $1.00 co-pay for common prescription drugs with a max co-pay of $3.65 (and the pharmacy legally has to fill the script if you say you can’t come up with the buck), zero co-pay for all family planning services, zero co-pay for a range of dental services, and $3.00 for an acute in-patient hospital stay — for starters. Meaning, of course, the total of the remaining cost for all this, which is in truth close to 100% of it, is on the taxpayers’ dime. WTF do they think this health insurance that they claim they don’t have IS?! I mean, what’s left, that they don’t already get, and for nothing?

    Yet it is my private employer-provided health insurance, that has ever increasing deductibles and co-pays and no dental whatsover, that is being characterized as *Platinum*, and targeted as excessive, by Obamacare. Mother fuckers.

    Basta (dd4359)

  5. I can’t help but think of Rep. Walsh shouting “you lie when Obama lied about how if you like your insurance you can keep it. Even at the time it was an established fact that they were going to define what was acceptable coverage (the most basic package being “Bronze” etc.). It was axiomatic that you couldn’t keep your plan even if you liked it because they were going to change.

    Now we find out the minimally acceptable policy will cost $20k per family. Tough luck if liked your old insurance policy better (and could afford the lower premiums and copays). If you and\or your employer attempt to keep that plan you liked you’ll be penalized. As if your insurer will even offer it.

    Yes, it’s true the statistics were bogus when not merely misleading. That’s true just about every time Obama demagues an issue (90% of crime guns in Mexico come from the US anyone?). But a big part of how we were lied into it is that the propaganda wing of the democratic party insisted on treating everything Obama said as gospel and accused anyone who didn’t of being racist. Just ask Rep. Walsh.

    Steve57 (08bc52)

  6. If its any consolation Deep Throat lie to Sasha and Malia as carelessly and consistently as to the rest of us.

    No, I didn’t really think that would help.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  7. In the third paragraph: “We were told there were almost 50 million insured in this country…”

    Perhaps you meant “uninsured”?

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  8. Yes. But…

    The important thing to never forget is that *it wasn’t passed because people were duped into approving it.* It was rammed through Congress through corruption, gimmickry, obfuscation, and yes, lies — but a a majority of people didn’t want it and made it known with their voices and votes. We the people were lied to but we weren’t duped; we got Obamacare, and the SCOTUS upheld it, in spite of the will of the people.

    Joseph D (ece5cb)

  9. Other factors regarding American life expectancy:

    1) – The USA has a much higher murder rate than Western European nations (To whom our HC system is most often compared to).

    2) – Our AIDS rate, acquired by a lifestyle choice, is much higher than Europe.

    3) – We have a larger drug usage problem than most European countries.

    4) – The USA has a different racial composition than Western European nations. White Americans who reach age 65, outlive Europeans.

    PerfectSense (86017c)

  10. We here’s another problem, we match up with all of Western Europe, population wise. Germany has about 1/5 of our population, the UK, 1/6, and so on, also infant mortality statistics are skewed, against us,

    narciso (3fec35)

  11. if this is true why didn’t we hear about it from Mitt Romney?

    happyfeet (323d6f)

  12. If liberals didn’t lie to hide their agenda they would never succeed on getting it passed–until they get over 50% of the population on the receiving end.

    Jim (ba6a58)

  13. I have read that the life expectancy is lower in the US because again we count all births, even high risk births that end in death.

    Patricia (be0117)

  14. Wow…o/t but the LAPD Chief just announced he is reopening the Dorner grievance and firing cases. Is he capitulating? Or setting a trap for him?

    Patricia (be0117)

  15. He said he wanted to protect an “increasingly positive relationship with the community” that the LAPD has developed over the last few years.

    deluded twat

    happyfeet (323d6f)

  16. “if this is true why didn’t we hear about it from Mitt Romney?”

    Mr. Feets – The information Patterico highlights in this post was out there before Obamacare was passed. If people didn’t pay attention the first time, why do you think they would two years later?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  17. We the people were lied to but we weren’t duped; we got Obamacare….

    And those same people re-elected Obama in the process, so all of the talk about how people were against Obamacare (or because they were Catholic, etc.) meant nothing in the end. Obama wanted one thing: to make the average guy more dependent on government which is always a huge win for the D’s and will be for years to come.

    Any attempt to “reform” or “change” or “rollback” Obamacare will be met with vitriol in the press and in popular culture. Look at how difficult it is to get any sensible change to SS or any other entitlement. We are fucked.

    Ipso Fatso (1e3278)

  18. cause of um

    cause of

    happyfeet (323d6f)

  19. “Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t true.”

    Ronald Reagan, in his televised “A Time for Choosing” speech, October 27, 1964

    Elephant Stone (a300a6)

  20. Also feets, daley, how do we know he or Ryan didn’t at some point talk about any of this?

    As Romney quipped at the Al Smith dinner he and the press had different jobs. His was to come up with a plan, their job was to make sure no one heard about it.

    Kind of like the the LA cop killer’s leftist manifesto.

    I’ve often wondered just how much ends up on the cutting room floor.

    Steve57 (0e996b)

  21. Thanks, Kevin M. Fixed.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  22. that’s a good point as well

    happyfeet (323d6f)

  23. Makin’ good sense, Pat. Here’s a rejoinder on the high US infant mortality lie: http://www.conunderground.com/two-obama-healthcare-myths/

    Dirty Old Man (76f27e)

  24. What kind of world would we be living in if politicians didn’t lie to us about what was happening all around us?

    Who yah gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  25. We’re stuck with it now, apparently

    At least until 2014 or 2016, anyway.

    Who yah gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?

    The Richard Pryor version of that (I dunno if you were channeling that or not) is:

    Who yah gonna believe, me or your damn lying eyes?

    Smock Puppet, 10th Dan Snark Master and Labeler of the Obamaᵒ (98ae1f)

  26. Foo Bar,

    I dunno. My previous post cited Ed Morrissey citing Census data. That claim might have been undercut by your links.

    But the claim in this post is more general: that, Census data or no, 10 to 15 million illegals are uninsured.

    Now: I have seen estimates on illegals in this country ranging from maybe 10-12 million on the low end, to maybe 18 million plus on the high end.

    I bet very very few of them have health insurance.

    So let’s move past the Census data discussed in your link, and more generally ask: how do you dispute Atlas’s claim?

    Patterico (9c670f)

  27. Foo Bar,

    As I understand it, the comment you left in 2009 regarding uninsured illegal immigrants linked a 2007 Census report that you said showed there were 9.4 million uninsured people in America who were not citizens. You pointed out that not all non-citizens are illegal and referred to a Pew estimate that 6.8 million of these uninsured were in the country illegally. Using those numbers, 6.8/9.4 = approximately 72%.

    According to the 2011 Census report (at page 22), the number of uninsured non-citizens had risen to 9.746 million in 2011. I don’t know how many were illegal but if we use the same 72% figure (9.746 x 72% = 7.017), that would mean there were 7.017 million uninsured illegals in America in 2011.

    I’m curious about one thing. Both the 2007 and the 2011 Census reports show there were over 22 million non-citizens in America and 9-10 million were shown as uninsured in each report. What makes you believe the Pew report that only 72% of the uninsured non-citizens are here illegally — especially since statistics like this are clearly estimates based on difficult-to-acquire data? Doesn’t it make more sense that more of the uninsured are also illegal, while the legal non-citizens are more likely to be legally employed and insured?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  28. Illegal immigrants are understandably reluctant to respond to polls and such, especially by the government. Doesn’t it seem more likely that most illegal immigrants are uninsured?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  29. Plus, these statistics are based on self-reporting. Isn’t it possible and even likely that:

    1. There are more than 9-10 million non-citizens who are uninsured?

    2. There are more than 22 million non-citizens in America and, if so, that most of those we don’t know about are illegal?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  30. I am shocked that people pushing an age da come up with estimates that minimize the bad and advance their positions. Shocking, I tell you

    JD (5a02de)

  31. Is Foo Bar attempting to highlight the massive identity theft and legal employment verification issues illegal immigration creates in this country?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  32. I estimate half of all illegal aliens have group health insurance for themselves, and their families.

    JD (5a02de)

  33. And illegal aliens use very little in the way of public costs o medical. It is negligible. Surely the CA and AZ experience bears this out.

    JD (5a02de)

  34. JD, don’t forget the closures due to insolvency of all the clinics along the Rio Grande.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  35. Oh yeah, we’re screwed. Part of it, of course, was because we actually were lied to. I mean, seriously, the fact that Nanci Pelosi wasn’t strung up — or at least, tarred and feathered — when she said to free Americans of all people that we’d have to pass the law in order to find out what’s in it demonstrates the depth of Congress’ collective depravity. More telling is that the same idiots who passed the law were overwhelmingly reelected by the populace that was allegedly outraged over them passing such odious legislation. What does that tell you about Americans’ views on the morality of their representatives?

    What’s further depressing is the disconnect of Americans regarding the cause and effect involved with sky-rocketing health care costs. Here is what I mean: from BLS statistics, health care (the BLS calls it “medical care”) costs are right in line with the CPI — until they begin to diverge in the mid-60s and stand on their end in the early Seventies like and head skyward like the Blue Angels.

    Does everyone think that because Medicare/Medicaid came into being in ’65 (which funneled consumer dollars into the health care industry that weren’t previously there) and the HMO law that was passed in 1973 (which narrowed competition in medicine) that titanic jumps in health care cost since is just some sort of “amazing coincidence”? No one on the Right could’ve pointed out the Econ 101 argument that more (federally supplied) dollars chasing fewer (federally mandated) providers will necessarily lead to higher medical costs? Really? If they did, hey, I didn’t hear it.

    No one on the Right could’ve pointed out that in order to cover the previously uncovered (the pre-existing condition folks), insurance rates with have to rise (because now the pool must bear the cost of more statistically risky members.) This being the case, one would have to expect that increased costs will drive some people (i.e., employers) to drop their coverages of employees considering the fact that the Feds will offer an alternative insurance (or, if it makes fiscal sense, perhaps the employer would choose to pay the fine.) Fold into the fact that health insurance must be paid by all (per Obamacare mandates) and that the increase in the pool of health care consumers now covered by the Feds’ insurance drive up an already over-consumed market, one would expect two outcomes: 1) the “cheaper” insurance (i.e., the government coverage) will drive out the private insurance and 2) costs will not be contained but will continue to rise at an accelerating pace. Thus, by design, Obamacare, in destroying the vestiges of private healthcare in America, will necessarily lead to the single-payer system.

    What? Cause and effect as an argument doesn’t work anymore? What does that tell you about the Right’s inability to communicate in easy-to-understand examples or about the American public’s desire to discover the truth? Sheeyeesh.

    As Ayn Rand put it: “It is not any crime you have ever committed that infects your soul with permanent guilt, it is none of your failures, errors or flaws, but the blank-out by which you attempt to evade them—it is not any sort of Original Sin or unknown prenatal deficiency, but the knowledge and fact of your basic default, of suspending your mind, of refusing to think. Fear and guilt are your chronic emotions, they are real and you do deserve them, but they don’t come from the superficial reasons you invent to disguise their cause, not from your “selfishness,” weakness or ignorance, but from a real and basic threat to your existence: fear, because you have abandoned your weapon of survival, guilt, because you know you have done it volitionally.”

    J.P. (bd0246)

  36. I want to stick to what Atlas claimed so I have added this update:

    UPDATE: Post is edited to change the sentence that originally read: “First, as we discussed on this blog previously, somewhere between 10 and 15 million of that group are illegal immigrants.” Reviewing the transcript of the podcast, that’s not what Atlas says; he says between 10 and 15 million are not U.S. citizens.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  37. We were saying all of this three years ago.

    SPQR (1e3571)

  38. Basta @4 reminds me of two more ways we were lied to. The numbers never added up.

    Medicaid reimburses providers so little that many won’t take medicaid patients, and that number is growing. Medicaid patients virtually have to go to the emergency room. Hositals in most places lose more money on medicaid than the uninsured. There was no way Obamacare could expand medicaid as much as was advertised and you’d see premiums go down $2500 like Obama promised. Which is why a tipsy Max Baucus went out on the the senate floor to crow after Obamacare passed that it was really a wealth transfer scheme.

    So Obama lied about lowering insurance premiums, as we see from the new IRS figures on the cost for the least expensive Obamacare policy.

    Somebody would have to pay for the actual costs medicaid doesn’t cover which as Basta observes is virtually 100%. these numbers were available and the consequences were obviuos as Obama was lying to the middle class (whom he not so secretly hates for moving out of places like Chicago to the ‘burbs and depriving the inner city peeps of wealth transfer cash but he’s got a fix for that called the regional taxing authority) about how Obamacare would benefit them with lower costs.

    It’s also not at all about delivering heaalth care; the fact that we knew at the time that it would result in fewe MDs but 16k more IRS agents told us the Dems were lying about that too.

    Steve57 (08bc52)

  39. Oh, should ad one more bit of evidence this is realy about screwing the New Party’s favorite alumnus’ enemies (as President Prayerfully Humble referred to other Americans at a Latino GOTV). The DoJ is planning to defend the HHS mandate against the religious objections on the grounds that the feds have a compelling interest in promoting gender equality.

    So it’s not at all about providing health care. It’s about “social and economic justice,” as the socialist explained in that 2001 Chicago public radio interview when also discussed why the Constition was so flawed as it prevented the gub’mint from taking dome peeps property to give to others.

    President You Didn’t Build That hates that he can’t take back what “the rich” stole what belongs to the collective. Obamacare and regional taxing authorities are 2 ways he thinks he can fix that.

    Prediction: once your medical records belong to the feds per Obamacare, the guy who became a US Senator by digging through his opponents’ sealed divorce records is going to find it a whole lot easier to deny gun purchases when they run a NICS check. As Holder told us the other day Obama will decide who has 2nd Amendment rights. And he can’t redistribute his enemies’ wealth to fundamentally transform the US and leave them armed. Just ask Joe The Plumber how the left treats gub’mint records when they’re in charge of them.

    Steve57 (7cc1ba)

  40. You forgot the myth of ER’s that “don’t make money.”

    Rodney King's Spirit (951136)

  41. .. or the myth that self-insured “lose money” for Hospitals when in fact they are as profitable as Private Commercial patients.

    Rodney King's Spirit (951136)

  42. Nothing that the supporters of Obamacare claimed has proven true.

    Nothing that the skeptics / opponents of Obamacare claimed has proven false.

    SPQR (768505)

  43. I find this stastic about infant mortality most interesting.

    Apparently Norway reports on a simmiliar basis, yet has much better numbers.

    Maybe it’s just my biases here, but I just can’t see how the numbers can be that bad. The US may not have a public health system, but it still has by far and away the best health system in the world.

    scrubone (e7e0ea)

  44. It is, scrubone, yes. It’s success weighs against it in that many many many more survive, if even for a short period of time, than would in many other places.

    JD (b63a52)

  45. It’s difficult and usually misleading to compare stats from one country to another. Japan always had lower unemployment than the US, but if you work 1 hr/week in Japan they count you as employed part time. You have to work 8 hrs/week to be counted as employed part time in the US.

    You’d really have to dig down into Norway’s reporting criteria to see how close they are to ours. Which isn’t to say they’re doing anything shady. There are arguments to be made for using different criteria.

    Steve57 (08bc52)

  46. Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics,
    and what is true that was left unsaid

    They use them all.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  47. As an example of the meaninglessness of infant mortality as a statistic to compare the delivery of healthcare, there is a large difference in infant mortality between african-american and hispanic populations – of the same social-economic class – in the US. (A fact that gets reported in the medical literature but with euphemisms to avoid being called racist)

    So it isn’t economic access to healthcare that is the major factor.

    SPQR (768505)

  48. And then there’s this:

    State lacks doctors to meet demand of national healthcare law” according to a banner headline in a well known American newpaper. And that state is ———California.

    ==SACRAMENTO — As the state moves to expand healthcare coverage to millions of Californians under President Obama’s healthcare law, it faces a major obstacle: There aren’t enough doctors to treat a crush of newly insured patients.

    Some lawmakers want to fill the gap by redefining who can provide healthcare.

    They are working on proposals that would allow physician assistants to treat more patients and nurse practitioners to set up independent practices. Pharmacists and optometrists could act as primary care providers, diagnosing and managing some chronic illnesses, such as diabetes and high-blood pressure.

    “We’re going to be mandating that every single person in this state have insurance,” said state Sen. Ed Hernandez (D-West Covina), chairman of the Senate Health Committee and leader of the effort to expand professional boundaries. “What good is it if they are going to have a health insurance card but no access to doctors?”

    http://www.latimes.com/health/la-me-doctors-20130210,0,1509396.story

    elissa (6d38b2)

  49. ellissa, the fact that we were already facing a doctor shortage was well known before the Dems thought of ramming through Obamacare. If the only effect of Obamacare would be to add millions more consumers competing for their services that would be bad enough. But a lot of current doctors will retire or go into other fields rather than work for the peanuts the feds will be capping compensation at. Again, well known before they passed Obamacare. So what’s happening in Kali is no surprise but what the critics said would happen as certainly as night follows day. And it will happen everywhere. It is only news to liberal idiots who believe when their Messiah speaks things happen according to his holy will. Like halting the rise of the ocean.

    So Obamacare will result in fewer doctors who are already in short supply while increasing demand. Obamacare is meant to do many things; making health care better is not among them. Say hello to the 11 month wating list for a bed in the maternity ward.

    I’ve often wondered, if health care is a right and some people think they can force others to pay for it against their conscience, does that mean they can force others to work to provide health care services against their will? It amounts to the same thing; they are in actuality demanding via the HHS mandate to steal the fruits of some people’s labor against their will to subsidize their precious rights.

    As an aside, don’t you find it rich that the Sandra Flukes of Amerikkka think that their right to personal autonomy when it comes to what they will do with tjeir bodies means they can violate the personal autonomy of others when it comes to their minds?

    Steve57 (43b783)

  50. These are the same liberal geniusess, by the way, who defended Obama’s $700 billion medicare cuts during the campaign by accusing Republicans of being misleading. Obama wasn’t cutting seniors’ benefits, you see. He was cutting payments to medicare advantage as well as future compensation to providers.

    Naturally just as many seniors would get the same benefits in the same amounts. It’s just that the people who offer the supplemental private insurance that recipients find necessary because medicare on its own is inadequate will be paid less for that coverage. But that’s ok because providers will be paid less for their services.

    Same benefits but with “savings!” Because these liberal geniuses know insurers and providers respond to the Messiah’s voice, not financial incentives or disincentives. Just think of the deficit reductions if The Won decreed that insurers or providers would offer their products and services for free.

    The liberal fact checkers suspect those lying Republicans would claim Obama was cutting the benefits seniors would actually receive.

    Steve57 (43b783)

  51. It’s not just health care. The lies continue.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  52. ” The USA has a different racial composition than Western European nations. White Americans who reach age 65, outlive Europeans.”

    It is well known to many, although never mentioned, that this is true of many other phenomena, such as crime and murder. Drug use, life expectancy, gun violence, rape, murder, burglary, etc, etc.

    Whatever you do, don’t mention it. It would hurt someone’s feelings.

    Mike K (dc6ffe)

  53. There is cheap medicine on the way:

    Changes in endocannabinoid levels and/or CB2 receptor expressions have been reported in almost all diseases affecting humans,[34] ranging from cardiovascular, gastrointestinal, liver, kidney, neurodegenerative, psychiatric, bone, skin, autoimmune, lung disorders to pain and cancer. The prevalence of this trend suggests that modulating CB2 receptor activity by either selective CB2 receptor agonists or inverse agonists/antagonists depending on the disease and its progression holds unique therapeutic potential for these pathologies [34]

    http://classicalvalues.com/2013/02/cb2/

    Medical Marijuana prohibition is a crime against humanity and a violation of the religious precept – heal the sick.

    M. Simon (1aa256)

  54. Mike K (dc6ffe) — 2/11/2013 @ 6:03 pm

    Actually white Americans use drugs at slightly higher rates than blacks.

    On the rest I believe you are correct.

    M. Simon (1aa256)

  55. 1) – The USA has a much higher murder rate than Western European nations (To whom our HC system is most often compared to).

    Well, Drug Prohibition is more rigorously enforced so we have that going for us.

    and it keeps DAs and police busy. Another gain.

    and the jails full. No end of profit there.

    and don’t forget the families of the jailed on welfare. Somebody has to administer that. Steady work. And a very nice pension.

    Medical Marijuana prohibition is a crime against humanity and a violation of the religious precept – heal the sick.

    M. Simon (1aa256)

  56. Spammers annoy but don’t persuade.

    SPQR (1e3571)

  57. M. Simon,

    Are you sure that whites use illicit drugs at a higher rate than blacks? Or are you making the same mistake Time Magazine made and combining drug and alcohol use?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  58. As for marijuana

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  59. Lie is all he does and has done.He is a liar,and a crook.Fills his own pockets and takes from ours.The true Antichrist. But I forgive all of you poor people that voted for him.You believed the CHANGE story. OH he’s black,one of us,the common people.RIGHT. He’s as black as ABE LINCOLN and as much one of us as a Kennedy.And since he is on his last term,the real changes are on the way. He placed us so far in debt,our grandchildrens grandchildren can’t pay the bill. And blames it on other presidents.You want gun control America.ARM everyone and see how many mass shootins there are.Those people would be stopped by the (victims) public then,and it would be final,no long prisn stays…

    F.Louis Polen (aa9bdf)

  60. BS- You knew – we tried to tell you all. We shouted at rallies, we shouted on Facebook and Twitter, we argued at hometown meetings. You called us Kooks haters.racists and tea baggers (thanks for the slur towards a 55 yo woman). I was out front of the Capitol building when they were pushing that POS through – still protesting, shouting and arguing! What were YOU doing?

    Linda Howe (16b192)


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