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	<title>Comments on: Open Thread: Amnesty II</title>
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	<link>http://patterico.com/2013/01/29/open-thread-amnesty-ii/</link>
	<description>Harangues that just make sense</description>
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		<title>By: Sammy Finkelman</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2013/01/29/open-thread-amnesty-ii/comment-page-4/#comment-1161942</link>
		<dc:creator>Sammy Finkelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2013 21:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/?p=72624#comment-1161942</guid>
		<description>Articles about economic benefits of immigration:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-29/to-fix-the-u-s-economy-fix-immigration.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/01/opinion/brooks-the-easy-problem.html

&lt;blockquote&gt; The forlorn pundit doesn’t even have to make the humanitarian case that immigration reform would be a great victory for human dignity. The cold economic case by itself is so strong. 

Increased immigration would boost the U.S. economy
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is all true, unless it&#039;s incredibly botched. (in terms of the welfare state)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Articles about economic benefits of immigration:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-29/to-fix-the-u-s-economy-fix-immigration.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-29/to-fix-the-u-s-economy-fix-immigration.html</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/01/opinion/brooks-the-easy-problem.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/01/opinion/brooks-the-easy-problem.html</a></p>
<blockquote><p> The forlorn pundit doesn’t even have to make the humanitarian case that immigration reform would be a great victory for human dignity. The cold economic case by itself is so strong. </p>
<p>Increased immigration would boost the U.S. economy
</p></blockquote>
<p>This is all true, unless it&#8217;s incredibly botched. (in terms of the welfare state)</p>
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		<title>By: Sammy Finkelman</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2013/01/29/open-thread-amnesty-ii/comment-page-4/#comment-1161909</link>
		<dc:creator>Sammy Finkelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2013 20:45:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/?p=72624#comment-1161909</guid>
		<description>Comment from someone somewhat to the left od most peoplle on Red State:

http://www.redstate.com/2013/01/29/i-dont-like-marco-rubios-plan/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comment from someone somewhat to the left od most peoplle on Red State:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.redstate.com/2013/01/29/i-dont-like-marco-rubios-plan/" rel="nofollow">http://www.redstate.com/2013/01/29/i-dont-like-marco-rubios-plan/</a></p>
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		<title>By: gary gulrud</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2013/01/29/open-thread-amnesty-ii/comment-page-4/#comment-1160781</link>
		<dc:creator>gary gulrud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:02:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/?p=72624#comment-1160781</guid>
		<description>Just because we&#039;ve identified some good doesn&#039;t mean there oughta be a law &#039;to make it so&#039;.

Mr. Rubio may be a real world heretic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just because we&#8217;ve identified some good doesn&#8217;t mean there oughta be a law &#8216;to make it so&#8217;.</p>
<p>Mr. Rubio may be a real world heretic.</p>
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		<title>By: daleyrocks</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2013/01/29/open-thread-amnesty-ii/comment-page-4/#comment-1160492</link>
		<dc:creator>daleyrocks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 04:24:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/?p=72624#comment-1160492</guid>
		<description>&quot;I would argue that there is a qualitative difference in the immorality of crossing a border illegally to escape a failed state......

Both are wrong. The second is worse.&quot;

 C. S. P. Schofield - Your position is that the United States government should encourage and reward immoral and illegal behavior? Seriously?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I would argue that there is a qualitative difference in the immorality of crossing a border illegally to escape a failed state&#8230;&#8230;</p>
<p>Both are wrong. The second is worse.&#8221;</p>
<p> C. S. P. Schofield &#8211; Your position is that the United States government should encourage and reward immoral and illegal behavior? Seriously?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve57</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2013/01/29/open-thread-amnesty-ii/comment-page-4/#comment-1160445</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve57</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 02:17:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/?p=72624#comment-1160445</guid>
		<description>I forgot to add all the property crimes. There are towns in Arizona where you can&#039;t leave your homes for more than a couple of days or else you will have squatters. 

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386893/Obama-slammed-Horseshoe-Canyon-victims-moats-alligator-jokes.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Obama slammed over jokes about &#039;moats&#039; and &#039;alligators&#039; in immigration speech... by border residents forced to leave homes  Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386893/Obama-slammed-Horseshoe-Canyon-victims-moats-alligator-jokes.html#ixzz2JVxAgUSL Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter &#124; DailyMail on Facebook&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;Residents of an Arizona town who fled their homes because of a massive fire say they are outraged at Obama’s claims to have secured the Mexican border.

Hundreds of people evacuated their homes in Portal because of the fire that is suspected to have been started by illegal immigrants in the drug and human smuggling corridor, 50 miles north of the Mexico border.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

They don&#039;t suspect. There have been at least two major fires in that canyon in successive years. The residents can see the campfires burning at night up in the mountains as the illegal aliens head north. 

&lt;blockquote&gt;Cochise County sheriff Larry Dever said: ‘These people are not overreacting. What they suggest in letter is very deep part of their belief system based on their experience and their experience has been horrific.

‘They see human smuggling and drug trafficking, they sit on their porch and watch people walk through, they&#039;ve had their homes burgled,’ he told Fox News.

‘It&#039;s a beautiful landscape and for those that moved out there for a sense of tranquility and peace, that&#039;s been destroyed.’

...LETTER TO OBAMA

&#039;Seizure of record quantities of drugs may pad the statistics of Homeland Security, but it does nothing to ease the burdens we have been forced to bear.

Over the years, as our homes have been burgled or invaded, our fences, water lines and windows repeatedly broken, our businesses driven toward bankruptcy, our natural surroundings desecrated by trash and fire, and our lives even obliterated, it has amazed us how little note is taken of these tragedies by our government and the press.

Is it enough, now that we have suffered back-to-back fires that threaten to erase our very reasons for living here?

What must we say or do to garner your attention and help?

How is it that, on the same day we took Osama bin Laden in Pakistan, we could not prevent illegals - 50 miles within our borders - from setting a fire along a known smuggling route in an extremely dry year?

Why were federal agents not posted along this route in anticipation of a repeat of last year&#039;s calamity?

Better still, why were the illegals not captured before they had travelled 50 miles north of the border?

Or, in the eyes of our government, do we just reside in a &quot;sacrifice zone&quot;?&#039;

&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;ve known people who&#039;ve been forced to sell border properties. Sometimes land that was in their families for generations. Simply because they were no longer safe on those properties. 

The problem with actively undermining immigration enforcement, turning a blind eye to property crimes, and facilitating identity crime &lt;i&gt;as our federal government has done&lt;/i&gt; is that it convinces these illegal aliens that official corruption is just as much a fact of life here as it is in their home countries. And they aren&#039;t too far off, since the reason these officials aid and abet immigration crimes is that they expect a quid pro quo. For elected officials it comes in the form of votes.

Consequently the nature of illegal aliens have changed. Word travels, even south of the border. And they demonstrate the kind of disregard for the law they expect to get away with in their home countries.

They know they&#039;re committing crimes. They don&#039;t care because they get the message loud and clear that their crimes will be tolerated. So I&#039;m not sympathetic to the idea they&#039;re just coming here to work hard and make an honest living to support their families. They can remit more of the money they make to their families at home if they take advantage of as much government assistance as possible. And supplement whatever they make legally by other means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I forgot to add all the property crimes. There are towns in Arizona where you can&#8217;t leave your homes for more than a couple of days or else you will have squatters. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386893/Obama-slammed-Horseshoe-Canyon-victims-moats-alligator-jokes.html" rel="nofollow">Obama slammed over jokes about &#8216;moats&#8217; and &#8216;alligators&#8217; in immigration speech&#8230; by border residents forced to leave homes  Read more: </a><a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386893/Obama-slammed-Horseshoe-Canyon-victims-moats-alligator-jokes.html#ixzz2JVxAgUSL" rel="nofollow">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386893/Obama-slammed-Horseshoe-Canyon-victims-moats-alligator-jokes.html#ixzz2JVxAgUSL</a> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook</p>
<blockquote><p>Residents of an Arizona town who fled their homes because of a massive fire say they are outraged at Obama’s claims to have secured the Mexican border.</p>
<p>Hundreds of people evacuated their homes in Portal because of the fire that is suspected to have been started by illegal immigrants in the drug and human smuggling corridor, 50 miles north of the Mexico border.
</p></blockquote>
<p>They don&#8217;t suspect. There have been at least two major fires in that canyon in successive years. The residents can see the campfires burning at night up in the mountains as the illegal aliens head north. </p>
<blockquote><p>Cochise County sheriff Larry Dever said: ‘These people are not overreacting. What they suggest in letter is very deep part of their belief system based on their experience and their experience has been horrific.</p>
<p>‘They see human smuggling and drug trafficking, they sit on their porch and watch people walk through, they&#8217;ve had their homes burgled,’ he told Fox News.</p>
<p>‘It&#8217;s a beautiful landscape and for those that moved out there for a sense of tranquility and peace, that&#8217;s been destroyed.’</p>
<p>&#8230;LETTER TO OBAMA</p>
<p>&#8216;Seizure of record quantities of drugs may pad the statistics of Homeland Security, but it does nothing to ease the burdens we have been forced to bear.</p>
<p>Over the years, as our homes have been burgled or invaded, our fences, water lines and windows repeatedly broken, our businesses driven toward bankruptcy, our natural surroundings desecrated by trash and fire, and our lives even obliterated, it has amazed us how little note is taken of these tragedies by our government and the press.</p>
<p>Is it enough, now that we have suffered back-to-back fires that threaten to erase our very reasons for living here?</p>
<p>What must we say or do to garner your attention and help?</p>
<p>How is it that, on the same day we took Osama bin Laden in Pakistan, we could not prevent illegals &#8211; 50 miles within our borders &#8211; from setting a fire along a known smuggling route in an extremely dry year?</p>
<p>Why were federal agents not posted along this route in anticipation of a repeat of last year&#8217;s calamity?</p>
<p>Better still, why were the illegals not captured before they had travelled 50 miles north of the border?</p>
<p>Or, in the eyes of our government, do we just reside in a &#8220;sacrifice zone&#8221;?&#8217;</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;ve known people who&#8217;ve been forced to sell border properties. Sometimes land that was in their families for generations. Simply because they were no longer safe on those properties. </p>
<p>The problem with actively undermining immigration enforcement, turning a blind eye to property crimes, and facilitating identity crime <i>as our federal government has done</i> is that it convinces these illegal aliens that official corruption is just as much a fact of life here as it is in their home countries. And they aren&#8217;t too far off, since the reason these officials aid and abet immigration crimes is that they expect a quid pro quo. For elected officials it comes in the form of votes.</p>
<p>Consequently the nature of illegal aliens have changed. Word travels, even south of the border. And they demonstrate the kind of disregard for the law they expect to get away with in their home countries.</p>
<p>They know they&#8217;re committing crimes. They don&#8217;t care because they get the message loud and clear that their crimes will be tolerated. So I&#8217;m not sympathetic to the idea they&#8217;re just coming here to work hard and make an honest living to support their families. They can remit more of the money they make to their families at home if they take advantage of as much government assistance as possible. And supplement whatever they make legally by other means.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve57</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2013/01/29/open-thread-amnesty-ii/comment-page-4/#comment-1160437</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve57</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 01:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/?p=72624#comment-1160437</guid>
		<description>You can argue what you wish. The most I will concede is that illegal aliens aren&#039;t entirely to blame for the situation. They couldn&#039;t get away with their crimes if federal, state, and local government officials didn&#039;t create a lawless environment for them to exploit.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cis.org/IdentityTheft&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Illegal, but Not Undocumented: Identity Theft, Document Fraud, and Illegal Employment&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;The findings include:

    Illegal immigrants are not “undocumented.” They have fraudulent documents such as counterfeit Social Security cards, forged drivers licenses, fake “green cards,” and phony birth certificates. Experts suggest that approximately 75 percent of working-age illegal aliens use fraudulent Social Security cards to obtain employment.

    Most (98 percent) Social Security number (SSN) thieves use their own names with stolen numbers. The federal E-Verify program, now mandated in only 14 states, can detect this fraud. Universal, mandatory use of E-Verify would curb this and stop virtually 100 percent of child identity theft.

    Illegal immigration and high levels of identity theft go hand-in-hand. States with the most illegal immigration also have high levels of job-related identity theft. In Arizona, 33 percent or all identity theft is job-related (as opposed to identity theft motivated simply by profit). In Texas it is 27 percent; in New Mexico, 23 percent; in Colorado, 22 percent; California, 20 percent; and in Nevada, 16 percent. Eight of the 10 states with the highest percentage of illegal aliens in their total population are among the top 10 states in identity theft (Arizona, California, Florida, Texas, Nevada, New York, Georgia, and Colorado).

    Children are prime targets. In Arizona, it is estimated that over one million children are victims of identity theft. In Utah, 1,626 companies were found to be paying wages to the SSNs of children on public assistance under the age of 13. These individuals suffer very real and very serious consequences in their lives.

    Illegal aliens commit felonies in order to get jobs. Illegal aliens who use fraudulent documents, perjure themselves on I-9 forms, and commit identity theft in order to get jobs are committing serious offenses and are not “law abiding.”

    Illegally employed aliens send billions of dollars annually to their home countries, rather than spending it in the United States and helping stimulate the American economy. In October 2008 alone, $2.4 billion was transferred to Mexico.

    Tolerance of corruption erodes the rule of law. Corruption is a serious problem in most illegal aliens’ home countries. Allowing it to flourish here paves the way for additional criminal activity and increased corruption throughout society.

    Leaders support perpetrators and ignore victims. Political, civic, religious, business, education, and media leaders blame Americans for “forcing” illegal aliens to commit document fraud and identity theft. No similar concern is expressed for the American men, women, and children whose lives are destroyed in the process.

    &lt;b&gt;The Social Security Administration and Internal Revenue Service facilitate illegal immigrant-driven identity theft.&lt;/b&gt; Both turn a blind eye to massive SSN fraud and take no action to stop it. The Social Security Administration assigns SSNs to new-born infants that are being used illegally. The IRS demands that victims pay taxes on wages earned by illegal aliens using their stolen SSNs, while taking no action to stop the identity theft.

    State and local governments need to adopt tougher laws to supplement federal efforts. The Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) is targeting large document fraud rings and the most egregious employers, but their resources are limited and stretched across multiple priorities. In 2007, identity theft cases represented only 7 percent of the total ICE case load.

    Employers must do their part. They can ensure that they have a legal workforce by using a combination of the federal government’s E-Verify and Social Security Number Verification Service systems and by signing up for the federal government’s IMAGE program or privately conducted audits.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So, yes, it&#039;s an immoral system. But it was deliberately created to be an immoral system. And I will not be emotionally blackmailed by the people who created it, undermining the laws to do so, and those who knowingly benefit from it.

You don&#039;t possibly believe that illegal aliens don&#039;t know they&#039;re committing a crime when they come here illegally and commit identity theft and document fraud, do you?

I can assure you they are well aware that they are committing crimes. In the rare case they didn&#039;t know before illegally crossing the border or overstaying their visa they&#039;ve got plenty of immigration advocates both inside and outside government telling them they are entitled to commit those crimes.

Which leads me to another aspect of the immorality of the entire illegal immigration debate. The racism. No one is arguing that the millions of Asians here illegally have any particular right to be here. You don&#039;t Chinese or Philippine embassy officials demanding we change our immigration laws. There is only one nation that I&#039;m aware of whose government files friend-of-the-court briefs in lawsuits against states like Arizona arguing enforcing our immigration laws hurts diplomatic relations between our two countries. I&#039;ll give you a hint. It&#039;s the one group Democratic party officials will admit is entitled to do so because &quot;we stole it&quot; from them. That is, when they think it won&#039;t be heard by unsympathetic ears and get repeated.

So, no, I won&#039;t be extorted by the same people who have advocated for, aided and abetted in creating, and benefited from this system. If it&#039;s immoral it&#039;s a matter of policy, not by accident. It serves as better tool for extortion; now I&#039;m supposed to be the bad guy if I don&#039;t undo what they&#039;ve deliberately done.

And I certainly won&#039;t bankroll the destruction of the republic because a particular nationality has historical grievances against it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can argue what you wish. The most I will concede is that illegal aliens aren&#8217;t entirely to blame for the situation. They couldn&#8217;t get away with their crimes if federal, state, and local government officials didn&#8217;t create a lawless environment for them to exploit.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.cis.org/IdentityTheft" rel="nofollow">Illegal, but Not Undocumented: Identity Theft, Document Fraud, and Illegal Employment</a></p>
<blockquote><p>The findings include:</p>
<p>    Illegal immigrants are not “undocumented.” They have fraudulent documents such as counterfeit Social Security cards, forged drivers licenses, fake “green cards,” and phony birth certificates. Experts suggest that approximately 75 percent of working-age illegal aliens use fraudulent Social Security cards to obtain employment.</p>
<p>    Most (98 percent) Social Security number (SSN) thieves use their own names with stolen numbers. The federal E-Verify program, now mandated in only 14 states, can detect this fraud. Universal, mandatory use of E-Verify would curb this and stop virtually 100 percent of child identity theft.</p>
<p>    Illegal immigration and high levels of identity theft go hand-in-hand. States with the most illegal immigration also have high levels of job-related identity theft. In Arizona, 33 percent or all identity theft is job-related (as opposed to identity theft motivated simply by profit). In Texas it is 27 percent; in New Mexico, 23 percent; in Colorado, 22 percent; California, 20 percent; and in Nevada, 16 percent. Eight of the 10 states with the highest percentage of illegal aliens in their total population are among the top 10 states in identity theft (Arizona, California, Florida, Texas, Nevada, New York, Georgia, and Colorado).</p>
<p>    Children are prime targets. In Arizona, it is estimated that over one million children are victims of identity theft. In Utah, 1,626 companies were found to be paying wages to the SSNs of children on public assistance under the age of 13. These individuals suffer very real and very serious consequences in their lives.</p>
<p>    Illegal aliens commit felonies in order to get jobs. Illegal aliens who use fraudulent documents, perjure themselves on I-9 forms, and commit identity theft in order to get jobs are committing serious offenses and are not “law abiding.”</p>
<p>    Illegally employed aliens send billions of dollars annually to their home countries, rather than spending it in the United States and helping stimulate the American economy. In October 2008 alone, $2.4 billion was transferred to Mexico.</p>
<p>    Tolerance of corruption erodes the rule of law. Corruption is a serious problem in most illegal aliens’ home countries. Allowing it to flourish here paves the way for additional criminal activity and increased corruption throughout society.</p>
<p>    Leaders support perpetrators and ignore victims. Political, civic, religious, business, education, and media leaders blame Americans for “forcing” illegal aliens to commit document fraud and identity theft. No similar concern is expressed for the American men, women, and children whose lives are destroyed in the process.</p>
<p>    <b>The Social Security Administration and Internal Revenue Service facilitate illegal immigrant-driven identity theft.</b> Both turn a blind eye to massive SSN fraud and take no action to stop it. The Social Security Administration assigns SSNs to new-born infants that are being used illegally. The IRS demands that victims pay taxes on wages earned by illegal aliens using their stolen SSNs, while taking no action to stop the identity theft.</p>
<p>    State and local governments need to adopt tougher laws to supplement federal efforts. The Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) is targeting large document fraud rings and the most egregious employers, but their resources are limited and stretched across multiple priorities. In 2007, identity theft cases represented only 7 percent of the total ICE case load.</p>
<p>    Employers must do their part. They can ensure that they have a legal workforce by using a combination of the federal government’s E-Verify and Social Security Number Verification Service systems and by signing up for the federal government’s IMAGE program or privately conducted audits.</p></blockquote>
<p>So, yes, it&#8217;s an immoral system. But it was deliberately created to be an immoral system. And I will not be emotionally blackmailed by the people who created it, undermining the laws to do so, and those who knowingly benefit from it.</p>
<p>You don&#8217;t possibly believe that illegal aliens don&#8217;t know they&#8217;re committing a crime when they come here illegally and commit identity theft and document fraud, do you?</p>
<p>I can assure you they are well aware that they are committing crimes. In the rare case they didn&#8217;t know before illegally crossing the border or overstaying their visa they&#8217;ve got plenty of immigration advocates both inside and outside government telling them they are entitled to commit those crimes.</p>
<p>Which leads me to another aspect of the immorality of the entire illegal immigration debate. The racism. No one is arguing that the millions of Asians here illegally have any particular right to be here. You don&#8217;t Chinese or Philippine embassy officials demanding we change our immigration laws. There is only one nation that I&#8217;m aware of whose government files friend-of-the-court briefs in lawsuits against states like Arizona arguing enforcing our immigration laws hurts diplomatic relations between our two countries. I&#8217;ll give you a hint. It&#8217;s the one group Democratic party officials will admit is entitled to do so because &#8220;we stole it&#8221; from them. That is, when they think it won&#8217;t be heard by unsympathetic ears and get repeated.</p>
<p>So, no, I won&#8217;t be extorted by the same people who have advocated for, aided and abetted in creating, and benefited from this system. If it&#8217;s immoral it&#8217;s a matter of policy, not by accident. It serves as better tool for extortion; now I&#8217;m supposed to be the bad guy if I don&#8217;t undo what they&#8217;ve deliberately done.</p>
<p>And I certainly won&#8217;t bankroll the destruction of the republic because a particular nationality has historical grievances against it.</p>
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		<title>By: C. S. P. Schofield</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2013/01/29/open-thread-amnesty-ii/comment-page-4/#comment-1160365</link>
		<dc:creator>C. S. P. Schofield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 00:13:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/?p=72624#comment-1160365</guid>
		<description>I would argue that there is a qualitative difference in the immorality of crossing a border illegally to escape a failed state (which, incidentally, has taught you contempt of the law because its laws are contemptible) and support yourself and allowing the continued situation whereby such people are held in a legal limbo and exploited.

Both are wrong. The second is worse.It is especially wrong if your excuse is &quot;They should get in line&quot; when there is no line (Right tendency) or &quot;Enforcing the laws is wrong but (implied) changing the laws is too much trouble&quot; (Left tendency).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would argue that there is a qualitative difference in the immorality of crossing a border illegally to escape a failed state (which, incidentally, has taught you contempt of the law because its laws are contemptible) and support yourself and allowing the continued situation whereby such people are held in a legal limbo and exploited.</p>
<p>Both are wrong. The second is worse.It is especially wrong if your excuse is &#8220;They should get in line&#8221; when there is no line (Right tendency) or &#8220;Enforcing the laws is wrong but (implied) changing the laws is too much trouble&#8221; (Left tendency).</p>
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		<title>By: Steve57</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2013/01/29/open-thread-amnesty-ii/comment-page-4/#comment-1160054</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve57</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 17:31:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/?p=72624#comment-1160054</guid>
		<description>Not really off topic, as the whole drive to legalize illegal immigrants is to gain political supporters who will gleefully join Obama in bankrupting the country. They&#039;ll join a lot of people already here who are already eager to do that.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-perspective/011413-640522-cfpb-denies-high-cost-lenders-legal-shield.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Obama OK&#039;s Subprime Borrowers For Prime Loans&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;New mortgage rules issued last week by the administration will have the effect of forcing lenders to approve prime loans to borrowers who would normally only qualify for subprime loans carrying higher interest rates and fees to cover the added risk of default.

Banks are already under renewed pressure from federal prosecutors and regulators to make home loans to low-income borrowers with blemished credit as part of the administration&#039;s stepped-up enforcement of anti-redlining laws.

...As a result, analysts warn lenders may end up having to &quot;subsidize&quot; riskier borrowers at the expense of other customers.

...&quot;Under its tortured definition of &#039;prime,&#039; a borrower can have no down payment, a credit score of 580, and a debt (-to-income) ratio over 50%,&quot; as long as the borrower is charged a prime rate, said former Fannie Mae chief credit officer Edward Pinto.

Mortgages carrying a prime rate, or one within 1.5 percentage points of the national average, will have the strongest level of legal protection, according to the regulator. Analysts say this rule effectively limits lenders&#039; ability to price for risk. Lenders who charge rates above the 1.5-point threshold open themselves up to legal liability.

Starting in January 2014, when the new rules take effect, borrowers who default on nonqualifying home loans will have the power to &quot;raise a foreclosure defense&quot; against banks, according to Joseph Barloon, a lawyer for New York-based Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher &amp; Flom.

Pinto, now a fellow for the Washington-based American Enterprise Institute, agrees: &quot;CFPB&#039;s definition will force a lender to either subsidize risky loans to get the presumption of affordability (for lower-income borrowers), or subject itself to a rebuttable presumption (by charging subprime rates), which will bring certain litigation from the tort bar at every attempt made to foreclose.&quot;

Read More At IBD: http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-perspective/011413-640522-cfpb-denies-high-cost-lenders-legal-shield.htm#ixzz2JTjSIUTq
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The wealth transfer continues apace. 

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2012/04/11/the_obama_rule_spread_the_wealth_around_277410.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Obama Rule: Spread the Wealth Around&lt;/a&gt;

That&#039;s all that&#039;s going on here. Responsible borrowers will be forced to subsidize the irresponsible. The money that was taxed from the &quot;rich&quot; has already been spent. And it is naive in the extreme that we&#039;ll be importing hard-working laborers who will be doing jobs that Americans are unwilling to do. Anyone who thinks that has a romanticized and entirely false impression of illegal immigrants. That is not what&#039;s going on. As a matter of fact, this is why the Democrats will always sabotage border enforcement. They will continue to need new welfare colonists to reinforce their ranks as the previous generations assimilate.

The destruction of this country is deliberate. And I&#039;m sorry to raise the &quot;good man&quot; issue but this is what Obama promised. I read his platform in 2008, particularly what he promised &quot;to do for&quot; small business as I&#039;m partners in two. He wasn&#039;t promising to do anything &quot;for&quot; small business but rather &quot;to&quot; small business. It was all a lie then, it&#039;s a lie now, and a good man doesn&#039;t do that. He&#039;s a lying, vile creep. You can&#039;t get elected by promising to screw the middle class. So he claimed he was going to do things &quot;for&quot; the but of course when you looked at who he is he was always planning to screw the middle class. He hates the middle class; that&#039;s why he joined Rev. Wright&#039;s TUCC which promotes a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.trinitychicago.org/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=114&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;black value system&quot;&lt;/a&gt; that rejects &quot;middleclassness.&quot; He particularly hates the fact that people who achieve &quot;middleclassness&quot; leave cities like Chicago and thus deny them their tax dollars.

Of course, he has a solution. 

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.barnesandnoble.com/listing/2688001550601?r=1&amp;cm_mmca2=pla&amp;cm_mmc=GooglePLA-_-Book-_-Q000000633-_-2688001550601&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Spreading the Wealth: How Obama is Robbing the Suburbs to Pay for the Cities&lt;/a&gt;

The inflation he has planned for this country will also rob responsible people of their savings. But then impoverished, unarmed people are more compliant and are unable to do much about subsequent robberies of their liberties and little remaining wealth. History is replete with such examples; in Japan the new warlord would go on a &quot;sword hunt&quot; because it interfered with oppressive tax collection.

Obama is going to s*** on this country and tell you that it&#039;s really a powerful fertilizer that will grow the economy. This amnesty scam is just part of that.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/dems-tout-claim-best-looking-contraction-us-gdp-youll-ever-see_698863.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dems Tout Claim: &#039;Best-Looking Contraction in U.S. GDP You&#039;ll Ever See&#039;&lt;/a&gt;

How&#039;s that working out for everyone?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not really off topic, as the whole drive to legalize illegal immigrants is to gain political supporters who will gleefully join Obama in bankrupting the country. They&#8217;ll join a lot of people already here who are already eager to do that.</p>
<p><a href="http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-perspective/011413-640522-cfpb-denies-high-cost-lenders-legal-shield.htm" rel="nofollow">Obama OK&#8217;s Subprime Borrowers For Prime Loans</a></p>
<blockquote><p>New mortgage rules issued last week by the administration will have the effect of forcing lenders to approve prime loans to borrowers who would normally only qualify for subprime loans carrying higher interest rates and fees to cover the added risk of default.</p>
<p>Banks are already under renewed pressure from federal prosecutors and regulators to make home loans to low-income borrowers with blemished credit as part of the administration&#8217;s stepped-up enforcement of anti-redlining laws.</p>
<p>&#8230;As a result, analysts warn lenders may end up having to &#8220;subsidize&#8221; riskier borrowers at the expense of other customers.</p>
<p>&#8230;&#8221;Under its tortured definition of &#8216;prime,&#8217; a borrower can have no down payment, a credit score of 580, and a debt (-to-income) ratio over 50%,&#8221; as long as the borrower is charged a prime rate, said former Fannie Mae chief credit officer Edward Pinto.</p>
<p>Mortgages carrying a prime rate, or one within 1.5 percentage points of the national average, will have the strongest level of legal protection, according to the regulator. Analysts say this rule effectively limits lenders&#8217; ability to price for risk. Lenders who charge rates above the 1.5-point threshold open themselves up to legal liability.</p>
<p>Starting in January 2014, when the new rules take effect, borrowers who default on nonqualifying home loans will have the power to &#8220;raise a foreclosure defense&#8221; against banks, according to Joseph Barloon, a lawyer for New York-based Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher &amp; Flom.</p>
<p>Pinto, now a fellow for the Washington-based American Enterprise Institute, agrees: &#8220;CFPB&#8217;s definition will force a lender to either subsidize risky loans to get the presumption of affordability (for lower-income borrowers), or subject itself to a rebuttable presumption (by charging subprime rates), which will bring certain litigation from the tort bar at every attempt made to foreclose.&#8221;</p>
<p>Read More At IBD: <a href="http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-perspective/011413-640522-cfpb-denies-high-cost-lenders-legal-shield.htm#ixzz2JTjSIUTq" rel="nofollow">http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-perspective/011413-640522-cfpb-denies-high-cost-lenders-legal-shield.htm#ixzz2JTjSIUTq</a>
</p></blockquote>
<p>The wealth transfer continues apace. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2012/04/11/the_obama_rule_spread_the_wealth_around_277410.html" rel="nofollow">The Obama Rule: Spread the Wealth Around</a></p>
<p>That&#8217;s all that&#8217;s going on here. Responsible borrowers will be forced to subsidize the irresponsible. The money that was taxed from the &#8220;rich&#8221; has already been spent. And it is naive in the extreme that we&#8217;ll be importing hard-working laborers who will be doing jobs that Americans are unwilling to do. Anyone who thinks that has a romanticized and entirely false impression of illegal immigrants. That is not what&#8217;s going on. As a matter of fact, this is why the Democrats will always sabotage border enforcement. They will continue to need new welfare colonists to reinforce their ranks as the previous generations assimilate.</p>
<p>The destruction of this country is deliberate. And I&#8217;m sorry to raise the &#8220;good man&#8221; issue but this is what Obama promised. I read his platform in 2008, particularly what he promised &#8220;to do for&#8221; small business as I&#8217;m partners in two. He wasn&#8217;t promising to do anything &#8220;for&#8221; small business but rather &#8220;to&#8221; small business. It was all a lie then, it&#8217;s a lie now, and a good man doesn&#8217;t do that. He&#8217;s a lying, vile creep. You can&#8217;t get elected by promising to screw the middle class. So he claimed he was going to do things &#8220;for&#8221; the but of course when you looked at who he is he was always planning to screw the middle class. He hates the middle class; that&#8217;s why he joined Rev. Wright&#8217;s TUCC which promotes a <a href="http://www.trinitychicago.org/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=114" rel="nofollow">&#8220;black value system&#8221;</a> that rejects &#8220;middleclassness.&#8221; He particularly hates the fact that people who achieve &#8220;middleclassness&#8221; leave cities like Chicago and thus deny them their tax dollars.</p>
<p>Of course, he has a solution. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.barnesandnoble.com/listing/2688001550601?r=1&amp;cm_mmca2=pla&amp;cm_mmc=GooglePLA-_-Book-_-Q000000633-_-2688001550601" rel="nofollow">Spreading the Wealth: How Obama is Robbing the Suburbs to Pay for the Cities</a></p>
<p>The inflation he has planned for this country will also rob responsible people of their savings. But then impoverished, unarmed people are more compliant and are unable to do much about subsequent robberies of their liberties and little remaining wealth. History is replete with such examples; in Japan the new warlord would go on a &#8220;sword hunt&#8221; because it interfered with oppressive tax collection.</p>
<p>Obama is going to s*** on this country and tell you that it&#8217;s really a powerful fertilizer that will grow the economy. This amnesty scam is just part of that.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/dems-tout-claim-best-looking-contraction-us-gdp-youll-ever-see_698863.html" rel="nofollow">Dems Tout Claim: &#8216;Best-Looking Contraction in U.S. GDP You&#8217;ll Ever See&#8217;</a></p>
<p>How&#8217;s that working out for everyone?</p>
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		<title>By: narciso</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2013/01/29/open-thread-amnesty-ii/comment-page-4/#comment-1159921</link>
		<dc:creator>narciso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 14:38:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/?p=72624#comment-1159921</guid>
		<description>Well one can actually go further back to the Social Wars, where the winners of the previous
engagement, Marius and Sulla, over Jugurtha, a North African prince, went to blows over
a similar circumstance,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well one can actually go further back to the Social Wars, where the winners of the previous<br />
engagement, Marius and Sulla, over Jugurtha, a North African prince, went to blows over<br />
a similar circumstance,</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: gary gulrud</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2013/01/29/open-thread-amnesty-ii/comment-page-4/#comment-1159920</link>
		<dc:creator>gary gulrud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 14:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/?p=72624#comment-1159920</guid>
		<description>90.  Given stones are about to permanently plug the spigot, Cali will certainly burn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>90.  Given stones are about to permanently plug the spigot, Cali will certainly burn.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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