Patterico's Pontifications

12/14/2012

Friday Open Thread – CT School Shooting

Filed under: General — JD @ 2:13 pm

[Guest post by JD]

Horrific shooting in Newtown, CT today. Over 20 people murdered in an elementary school. Don’t watch MSNBC, unless you are prepared for gun grabbing blame the gun rhetoric.

Breaking news is wildly inaccurate in the first 24-48 hours, generally.

– JD

203 Responses to “Friday Open Thread – CT School Shooting”

  1. Happyfeet is visiting me and my family tonight.

    JD (318f81)

  2. “gun grabbing blame the gun rhetoric”…

    It’s hard not to think about it.

    This. Keeps. Happening.

    Maybe we ought to have the conversation every time it happens. You know – to drive the f*cking point home? Maybe that’s our penance.

    Leviticus (17b7a5)

  3. you know it wouldn’t surprise me in the least bit if we were to find out that the killer was sent over the edge by the shopping mall shooting hysteria on cable news

    JD knows from pizza btw and from a purely statistical perspective your odds of finding a more beautiful family are pretty negligible

    happyfeet (e63456)

  4. Leviticus. Maybe we should ban people.

    JD (318f81)

  5. Bushmaster .223 is an assault rifle? Semiautomatic handguns should be banned?

    JD (318f81)

  6. The problem is that we are allowing schizophrenics to run around loose. Our society has refused to address the problem of the mentally ill not being effectively controlled since the ACLU pushed for deinstitutionalization in the ’60′s.

    SPQR (768505)

  7. No, a civilian legal Bushmaster is not an “assault rifle”.

    SPQR (768505)

  8. I know, SPQR. But that is not how it is being referred to.

    JD (318f81)

  9. Just to speed things up here: one group should go ahead and blame the prevalence of guns; another group can complain that the entertainment industry has glamorized violence and thus desensitized us to it; another group can wonder why so many disturbed people are allowed to freely wander throughout society; and another group can complain that the lousy economy and the holiday season have driven people to the depths of despair. Can that forestall rounds and rounds of endless blog and Facebook arguments?

    JVW (4826a9)

  10. JD, its intentional. The VPC/Brady campaign intentionally misuse terms to confuse people into thinking that ordinary semi-auto rifles are actually fully automatic restricted firearms.

    SPQR (768505)

  11. JVW, nope, nothing will forestall it.

    SPQR (768505)

  12. “Leviticus. Maybe we should ban people.”

    - JD

    JD. Maybe we should ban handguns.

    Leviticus (17b7a5)

  13. Maybe for a few years? See how it goes?

    Or if someone kills 60 people in a movie theater with a hatchet. Then you can have your handguns back.

    Leviticus (17b7a5)

  14. For the record, I don’t want to ban handguns. I just think it’s worth having the discussion about many gun-murders a year the Second Amendment is worth.

    Leviticus (17b7a5)

  15. Leviticus, and the fact that banning firearms hasn’t actually reduced homicides anywhere won’t even intrude upon your discussion, no doubt.

    SPQR (768505)

  16. Arm the teachers.

    mg (31009b)

  17. Leviticus- How did that work out in DC? Chicago?

    JD (9adec8)

  18. “Leviticus, and the fact that banning firearms hasn’t actually reduced homicides anywhere won’t even intrude upon your discussion, no doubt.”

    - SPQR

    Population of the US: ~308,000,000
    Population of Japan: 128,000,000

    Gun-related homicides in Japan (2008): 11
    Gun-related homicides in the US (2008): 12,000

    Leviticus (17b7a5)

  19. Maybe it’s not about the guns. Maybe we’re just a society of psychopaths. Is that your point?

    Leviticus (17b7a5)

  20. Officials say that Lanza has no previous criminal record. Preliminary info suggests that Lanza purchased his guns legally.

    Read more: http://globalgrind.com/news/connecticut-elementary-school-shooting-gunman-deaths-killed-students-teachers-photos#ixzz2F4QSB8c9

    IMO this legal purchase should have been impossible. His diagnosis should have barred him from legal purchase of firearms.

    Mentally ill people, people with autism and personality disorders, people who do not relate normally to others and their environment or have uncontrollable impulses because of mental defect, should be barred from weapons purchase or ownership unless they can establish or re-establish stability and mental health. Mandatory reporting with diagnosis, due process to remove restriction.

    There isn’t a “gun control” problem in this country – there’s a NUT CONTROL problem. I’m sorry if “nut” is an offensive way to refer to an afflicted person. However, it’s time to make emerging or known mental illness of the sort described above, instantly (mandatory reporting) a bar to legal purchase of weapons, with due process to restore the right.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  21. Oh, great seeing you Happyfeet. Glad you got to stop in and visit, meet the family, have some good pizza. Safe travels.

    JD (9adec8)

  22. Happyfeet? WHERE.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  23. Oh there. (sorry)

    SarahW (b0e533)

  24. if he is 20 then he wasnt supposed to be able to get the handguns

    EPWJ (2a58f7)

  25. You got an obsessive-compulsive schizphrenia-spectrum kid in the house? Turn off the TV when mass shooting coverage is on.

    No word on where this kid lived, though.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  26. NBC News just reported that the guns were legally purchased, owned and properly registered—by the shooter’s (now dead) mother.

    elissa (d0c7e2)

  27. 14.For the record, I don’t want to ban handguns. I just think it’s worth having the discussion about many gun-murders a year the Second Amendment is worth.

    Comment by Leviticus (17b7a5) — 12/14/2012 @ 3:09 pm

    Harry Belafonte reminded us just yesterday why the nation couldn’t last without a 2nd Amendment.

    States can secede and draft their own constitutions with gun laws to their liking. So maybe the question should be: “How many gun murders is it worth to remain in the union that has a 2nd Amendment?”. That also assumes the silly idea that you’ll stop having gun crime after you get rid of the 2nd amendment.

    j curtis (719045)

  28. Maybe we should ban handguns.

    Absolutely. Because banning cocaine has made it almost impossible to get. Guns will be just as difficult to obtain.

    Chuck Bartowski (11fb31)

  29. I suppose its possible the kid bought weapons using his brother’s ID, since the preliminary info has already included a reversed transcription of their names in early reports.

    In which case, maybe he WAS on a list and barred from owning weapons at all. I know we’ll find out eventually.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  30. Elissa – thanks, for that info. I cross posted over you.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  31. Elissa – WHY WOULD SHE HAVE THOSE WEAPONS with that in the house. Because she had that in the house?

    SarahW (b0e533)

  32. States can secede and draft their own constitutions with gun laws to their liking. So maybe the question should be: “How many gun murders is it worth to remain in the union that has a 2nd Amendment?”.

    ummm, I dont think they can, and 26 inocent dead are dead because they were unarmed, not because of restrictive gun laws, because security is an after thought, everywhere in society.

    EPWJ (2a58f7)

  33. Leviticus- why do you focus only on gun related crimes? Why not all crimes?

    The worst anyone can say is there is no causation between guns and crime- that one can go up or down without the other. The best is of course that more guns=less crime.

    Matt B (095766)

  34. Leviticus. Maybe we should ban people.

    Ban Democrats. No more anti-gun rhetoric. Or at least a matter of a lot less of it.

    Smock Puppet, 10th Dan Snark Master (aacc3d)

  35. Leviticus, Japan had a far lower homicide rate that the US before they instituted gun control. Their gun control laws did not lower their homicide rate.

    SPQR (768505)

  36. This killing brought to you by Gun Free Zones and the Campaign to Blame the 94 million legal gunowners who haven’t yet killed anyone.

    Hug your kids.

    Watch out for idiots.

    htom (412a17)

  37. Then you can have your handguns back.

    Oh, yeah, like THAT would EVER happen in a million years of government….

    Hey, Levi, if you actually believed that, I have a GREAT deal on some LAND. Guaranteed 50% profit in only six FIVE months.

    If you’re, as I suspect, fully AWARE this would never happen, then I believe a wholehearted, deeply felt “Fuck you!” is in order.

    Smock Puppet, 10th Dan Snark Master (aacc3d)

  38. “if he is 20 then he wasnt supposed to be able to get the handguns

    Comment by EPWJ (2a58f7) — 12/14/2012 @ 3:28 pm

    Federal law prohibits the sale of handguns to persons under 21 by licensed dealers. It does not restrict sales of handguns between private individuals of the same state. Connecticut state law bans possession of handguns by those under 21, requires a permit to purchase and bans “assault weapons” not already possessed as of 1993 from a list of models and features mirroring the now expired Federal “Assault Weapons” ban.

    In other words, Connecticut already has all the “reasonable” gun control measures advocated by gun control advocates.

    SPQR (768505)

  39. SarahW-

    I am trying not to conjecture too much. There is just still so much unverified and conflicting info out there that it’s probably not very productive. Some reports have the father dead off-site today too, and there’s already been confusion about whether it was the older son or the younger son who was the shooter and who is dead.

    All I know is this: Many of those poor parents and grandparents have Christmas presents bought, wrapped, tagged, and hidden away for Christmas morning ready to bring joy for their beautiful (now gone forever) children. It’s too heartbreaking to even think about.

    elissa (d0c7e2)

  40. Heartbreaking or not, we need to think about it.

    Leviticus (17b7a5)

  41. Absolutely. Because banning cocaine has made it almost impossible to get. Guns will be just as difficult to obtain.

    Even more difficult

    /sarc off

    I mean after all, coca leaves don’t grow outside of hothouses in North America. Lots of machine tools in the USA, though. They could make impressively functional guns in 1880 with the tools they had then. How much work is it going to be with a computer-operated milling machine?

    Smock Puppet, 10th Dan Snark Master (aacc3d)

  42. Leviticus, The Brady Campaign ranked Connecticut in fifth place nationally for adopting policies that they advocated, giving the state “3 Stars” and only ranking California higher with “4 Stars”.

    So its pretty obvious that “assault weapon” bans, permits to purchase handguns, waiting periods etc., don’t prevent these acts.

    SPQR (768505)

  43. Harry Belafonte reminded us just yesterday why the nation couldn’t last without a 2nd Amendment.

    Wow. The man is working on getting into dictionaries as the go-to example picture for “consummate ass”.

    Smock Puppet, 10th Dan Snark Master (aacc3d)

  44. MFM ghouls shoving microphones in the faces of 5-8 year olds, and broadcasting wrong names of suspects, and broadcasting people’s birthdays … I cannot stand them.

    JD (318f81)

  45. Heartbreaking or not, we need to think about it.

    Not in the imbecilic direction you suppose and support, however.

    You’re preaching to the anti-choir, numbnuts.

    We grasp what the problem is, and it’s not what you believe it to be.

    Smock Puppet, 10th Dan Snark Master (aacc3d)

  46. BTW, offhand I can think of at least two ways to cause MORE death and horror than guns, both readily available to any remotely competent, intelligent American. I can think of one more way which won’t kill but will maim in truly horrific ways, particularly when you think of children as the targets.

    Smock Puppet, 10th Dan Snark Master (aacc3d)

  47. Leviticus,

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html?hpt=hp_bn2

    Waiting for your comment on the conversation to ban knives.
    3…2…1…

    NJRob (fe68e7)

  48. Planes should have been done away with after 911.

    mg (31009b)

  49. mg, weren’t they?

    SPQR (768505)

  50. THis is the kind of reporting we are dealing with on this, folks:

    ABC nEWs:
    As part of the investigation authorities searched the New Jersey apartment of Adam’s older brother Ryan in Hoboken, New Jersey.

    Police had initially identified Ryan as the killer, until he sent out a series of Facebook posts saying it wasn’t him and that he was at work all day.

    Sources told ABC News that Ryan, 24, works as a senior person in Ernst and Young’s tax practice in Manhattan.

    “He’s a tax guy and he is clean as a whistle,” a source familiar with his work said.

    Ryan has worked at the firm 4 years.

    Does Ryan have a cause of action against somebody?

    elissa (d0c7e2)

  51. The VPC/Brady campaign intentionally misuse terms to confuse people into thinking that ordinary semi-auto rifles are actually fully automatic restricted firearms.

    And therefore that “machine guns” can be bought at the local WalMart. Quickly followed by “there oughta be a law”.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  52. Banning guns would not make the problem go away. There are well over 200 million guns in the U.S. right now. Does anyone really think that people would turn in all their guns? Maybe the proverbial little old lady in Pasadena would, and other naive, honest people. The criminals and otherwise law-abiding smart people would not.

    (Why wouldn’t smart people do it? Because they know they would then be defenseless against the bad guys. Remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.)

    It would take a fascist state on steroids, including storm troopers going house to house, to seriously make a dent in the number of guns, and even then people would find a way to hide their guns.

    If we could start this country all over again, and ban guns from the get-go, it might work, but the cat’s already out of the bag.

    norcal (325ede)

  53. Gun-related homicides in Japan (2008): 11
    Gun-related homicides in the US (2008): 12,000

    Nice cherry-pick, that. Guns have never been freely available in Japan. They even had sword-control at one time. So, there is not a supply of illegal guns left over from some before-time.

    The US has about 3 gun killings per 100,000 population per annum. Two out of every 3 gun deaths is a suicide and taking guns away won’t fix that.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  54. I just think it’s worth having the discussion about many gun-murders a year the Second Amendment is worth.

    It might be worth having a discussion, on a different day, about whether the underlying assumption of that statement is accurate.

    Patterico (8b3905)

  55. Strict gun-control would turn the entire country into South Chicago.

    The Sanity Inspector (97014d)

  56. It’s not the guns. It’s inadequate management of mental illness.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  57. this is vastly different than shooting your peers

    this is more of a european-style massacre like Dunblane or Bremen

    happyfeet (5553f5)

  58. Hardly any dime’s worth of moral difference between this and what happened in the Panjwai district of Afghanistan’s southern Kandahar province.

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  59. There isn’t a “gun control” problem in this country – there’s a NUT CONTROL problem. I’m sorry if “nut” is an offensive way to refer to an afflicted person. However, it’s time to make emerging or known mental illness of the sort described above, instantly (mandatory reporting) a bar to legal purchase of weapons, with due process to restore the right.

    Locking them up for life will prevent them from getting weapons.

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  60. With all the drunk driving fatalities in America, we should consider banning cars. Or alcohol. Or both !

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  61. he may very well have used a car to get to the school… that would explain the rifle in the car Mr Elephant

    happyfeet (5553f5)

  62. I had a rifle when I was nine*, pistols when I was fifteen**. How on Earth did they not run away from me and kill anybody?

    The person who should have been better screened was the punk’s mother, who was hired as a teacher’s aide.

    *SMLE with the magazine removed to make it a single-shot.
    ** Chicago.

    nk (875f57)

  63. Harry Belafonte has always been so smiling and friendly, dancing and singing “Mr. Tallyman, Tallyman, tally me banana…” Has he done anything other noteworthy, that he should deserve attention?

    nk (875f57)

  64. his daughter was on a tv show about this hotel

    it was called “Hotel”

    I don’t know if that really counts as an accomplishment for Harry though, but I bet he was pretty proud at the time

    happyfeet (5553f5)

  65. JD,

    Frum really stepped in it with the most insensitive tweets ever – go look, try not to hurl

    EPWJ (2a58f7)

  66. Mr. Bojangles, dance.

    You ok, happyfeet? I’m sorry we could not meet.

    Time.

    nk (875f57)

  67. Mr. Barbara Streisand was the man in charge of the aforementioned hotel, wasn’t he ?

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  68. Leviticus,
    When England banned guns, home invasions and rapes skyrocketed. Making guns illegal just means that law-abiding citizens won’t be able to defend themselves from criminals. In china today, a man slashed over 20 people with a knife. The worst mass school murder in American history took place on May 18,1927 in Bath Township, Mich., when a former school board member set off three bombs that killed 45 people.

    People kill, with or without guns.

    Now that we’ve had the discussion, should we ban mass schooling? It’d be a lot harder for these f**kers to kill lots of people if we’d stop packing them all into one convenient slaughterhouse.

    Ghost (2d8874)

  69. “With all the drunk driving fatalities in America, we should consider banning cars. Or alcohol. Or both !”

    Elephant Stone – Not to worry, I’m sure Mr. Bob Costas will be along shortly to inform the ignorant proles what to do during his next sports commentary.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  70. Guns at home – far more likely to be used stupidly than for defense.

    States with the strictest gun laws have least firearm fatalities.

    Dad (d01ca2)

  71. I am good I’m in the heartland and i’m a go to Hannibal next… Not sure what to expect but in my imagination the town very likely offers a shimmering glimpse into the mysterium tremendum of everything what makes America wonderful

    happyfeet (5553f5)

  72. wow it’s true what they say about elephant memories huh

    happyfeet (5553f5)

  73. With all the drunk driving fatalities in America, we should consider banning cars. Or alcohol. Or both!

    Both!

    Quiero marijuna a fumar y un caballo a montar.

    nk (875f57)

  74. Dad,
    3 words: anders Behring Breyvik.

    I probably spelled that wrong, but Norway has very strict gun laws, yet that psycho was able to slaughter almost 100 people.

    Psychopaths will be psychopaths. Laws be damned.

    I’m sticking with my original thought: ban schools, no more school shootings.

    Ghost (2d8874)

  75. daleyrocks,

    Bob Costas is always along, uh, shortly !

    Come to think of it, I’d be in favor of banning Bob Costas.

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  76. Dad – CT has one of the top 5 strictest gun laws in the country. Ditto Chicago. Ditto DC.

    JD (9adec8)

  77. 71.Guns at home – far more likely to be used stupidly than for defense.

    States with the strictest gun laws have least firearm fatalities.

    Comment by Dad (d01ca2) — 12/14/2012 @ 7:01 pm

    I am sending this to every dictionary for the definition of “lying piece of s***”.

    What’s Vermont’s murder rate, jackass Dad?

    nk (875f57)

  78. Newtown, CT has the second biggest gun lobby in America. Coincidence?

    Dad (d01ca2)

  79. States with the strictest gun laws have least firearm fatalities.

    Like Mexico?

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  80. Maybe we ought to have the conversation every time it happens. You know – to drive the f*cking point home? Maybe that’s our penance.

    Indeed.

    16 Afghan villagers were allegedly killed by a U.S. army soldier.

    Maybe wee should disband the Army. Or at least force it to get rid of all high-capacity magazines in its possession.

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  81. Don’t even pay attention to lying jackass Dad. Jurisdictions with the strictest gun controls have the highest rates of gun fatalities.

    nk (875f57)

  82. Has anyone noticed that all gun laws somehow exempt those charged with enforcing it?

    Presently, there are bans of same-sex “marriage” and polygamy in Oklahoma, but the district court clerks who are charged with enforcing those laws are not exempted.

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  83. States with the strictest gun laws have least firearm fatalities.

    Don’t believe everything Rachel Maddow tells you.

    The Sanity Inspector (97014d)

  84. “Gun-related homicides in Japan (2008): 11″

    That’s true. Japan has a very low homicide rate, but you’re forgetting a few things. Mexico has about the same laws as Japan (a virtual ban on private ownership of firearms) and the homicide rate in Mexico is about four times HIGHER than the homicide rate in the United States.

    You’re also forgetting that the same Japanese state that outlawed the private ownership of firearms and other weapons then used that monopoly on weaponry to oppress the Japanese population for centuries and also to murder millions of unarmed people who fell under the power of the Japanese Empire.

    Just during WWII the same totalitarian Japanese state that gave you the comprehensive outlawing of private ownership of weapons, murdered around 6,000,000 people (by one estimate).

    That’s the price you pay for having a totalitarian government (which, Japan still has, btw, they just have a veneer of democracy over the same old totalitarian police state they’ve always had…IOW, Japan is a disaster waiting to happen).

    You’re also forgetting that institution of heavy gun control in both the UK (which has a virtual complete ban on ownership of weaponry) and the US has done absolutely NOTHING to lower homicide rates. On the contrary, the more gun control laws thay’ve passed, the higher the homicide rates have gone, in both countries.

    In 1900 the homicide rate in the United States was 1.2 per 100,000 population, in 2011 it was 4.2 per 100,000, and that’s after the passage of thousands and thousands of gun control laws.

    So much for gun control.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  85. Leviticus. Maybe we should ban people.

    Well, certainly those people who’ve become more and more brazen and shameless.

    While most liberals — clueless as ever — worry about the hardware (ie, weaponry, including handguns), people with common sense (conservatives included) worry about what really counts. Namely, the “software.” Or the increasingly desensitized, do-your-own-thang culture we live in.

    Human beings don’t live in a vacuum, and when crude, crass and violent forms of dysfunction are all around us, it’s naive to think that the average person — much less a borderline psycho — won’t be affected by all that dysfunction.

    Another thing: The idiocy of liberalism (ie, political correctness run amok) is at the heart of the bloody rampage of Nidal Hasan at Fort Hood a few years ago. IOW, it’s even more absurd to fuss about the “hardware” of society when the “software” of our country (which involves decades of the corrupting nature of feel-good liberalism) is what is allowing ruthless, deadly behavior to percolate and then erupt.

    Mark (94cc2f)

  86. We are not f***** Japan and we are not f***** Mexico and we are not f***** France and we are not F**** England and we are not a scaredy a** f** haven.

    nk (875f57)

  87. “Dad” – that was a patently unserious and silly link.

    JD (318f81)

  88. Dad – Connecticut has among the strictest gun control laws in the country. How did the shooting occur under those circumstances? Coincidence?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  89. Dad – The school in Newton was a gun free zone. Why didn’t the shooter obey the law?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  90. Gun-related homicides in Japan (2008): 11
    Gun-related homicides in the US (2008): 12,000

    Uh, Japan also has a culture that, so far, still is more traditional and honor-bound than what has become the increasingly do-your-own-thang, feel-good, I’m-okay-you’re-okay, compassion-is-a-religion culture of America.

    Japan also is no-nonsense when it comes to the type of issues that we in America are so touchy-feely about. For example, the controversy of decades of huge amounts of illegal immigration, which we blow kisses to. Or a willingness to embrace modern figureheads like the guy who said “if I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon Martin.”

    Mark (94cc2f)

  91. JD. Maybe we should ban handguns.

    Punish the innocent for the acts of lunatics. Grand plan.

    Molan labe.

    Rob Crawford (d8dade)

  92. I just think it’s worth having the discussion about many gun-murders a year the Second Amendment is worth.

    Gun laws cannot prevent murders; if they did, Chicago would not be on track for 500 shootings this year.

    Why not have the discussion “how many murders is deinstitutionalization worth?”

    Rob Crawford (d8dade)

  93. Looks like old “Dad” was another drive by. Bon voyage, sucker!

    Gazzer (e0cb67)

  94. ΜΟΛΟΝ ΛΑΒΕ.

    At the 479 BC, Greek only had capital letters.

    nk (875f57)

  95. we are not a scaredy a** f** haven.

    But we are a country, after all, led by a person who touted and upheld a spiritual leader who proclaimed “goddamn America! Your chickens are coming home to roost!”

    Mark (94cc2f)

  96. Uh, Japan also has a culture that, so far, still is more traditional and honor-bound than what has become the increasingly do-your-own-thang, feel-good, I’m-okay-you’re-okay, compassion-is-a-religion culture of America.

    which produced the Rape of Nanking.

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  97. Heartbreaking or not, we need to think about it.

    We have. You just don’t like the answer the rest of us have come to.

    (Yes, yes, I saw your faux disclaimer.)

    Rob Crawford (d8dade)

  98. 1st Amendment – cure for speech you don’t like is more speech
    2nd Amendment – cure for guns you don’t like is ban guns?

    JD (318f81)

  99. which produced the Rape of Nanking.

    Yep, which illustrates the tendency of humans to go off the deep end, to allow extremist situations, emotions and trends (including leaders, be they political, spiritual, etc) to choke the common sense and decency out of a society.

    Here in the US, in the 21st century, it’s the extremism of feel-good liberalism that is the slippery slope we’re skidding and sliding on.

    Mark (94cc2f)

  100. We are not f***** Japan and we are not f***** Mexico and we are not f***** France and we are not F**** England and we are not a scaredy a** f** haven.

    Sure, but we are no longer the America that you and I recognize. Obama wants us to be like Japan, France, England. . . . Spain, Greece, Portugal. . . . Yeah, that won’t come at a cost — but at least it won’t immediately affect his voters, so he can still be the Greatest President of All-Time.

    JVW (4826a9)

  101. Dad – The school in Newton was a gun free zone. Why didn’t the shooter obey the law?

    A lot of these mass shootings happen in “gun free zones.” Research it.

    Patterico (8b3905)

  102. Has anyone noticed that all gun laws somehow exempt those charged with enforcing it?

    Presently, there are bans of same-sex “marriage” and polygamy in Oklahoma, but the district court clerks who are charged with enforcing those laws are not exempted.

    It really doesn’t make sense that we grant men the right to kill, sexually assault (TSA), kidnap, and steal in order to protect us from murderers, rapists, abductors, and thieves.

    Ghost (2d8874)

  103. observe the Lefty dolt on display–
    Guns at home – far more likely to be used stupidly than for defense.
    States with the strictest gun laws have least firearm fatalities.
    Comment by Dad (d01ca2) — 12/14/2012 @ 7:01 pm

    Yeah, Chicago’s total ban on guns has really eliminated gun crime there, as in DC….

    when the law-abiding are disarmed, the criminals feast.

    John Cunningham (4feb81)

  104. I see that Rupert Murdoch thinks we need to bad automatic weapons as a response to this shooting.

    No, really!

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  105. Leviticus, would it make you feel any better if this person had chained the doors closed, poured gasoline all over the place and then lit a match? Would it make you feel any better if he had run them down with his mother’s car? In reaction to their deaths, would you now be typing “at least he didn’t shoot them”?

    Icy (e74af9)

  106. “A lot of these mass shootings happen in “gun free zones.” Research it.”

    Patterico – But aren’t people advocating more gun control in reaction to these mass shootings, although not specific on what specific measures they are advocating, barking up the wrong tree if mentally deranged people bent on a killing spree have already shown us plenty of evidence they pay no attention to existing gun control laws or the criminal code? Why would adding more restrictions prove any kind of deterrent to these wackadoodles?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  107. Perhaps we need to have each school hire a retired cops to sit around, armed, just in case. They can teach PE or supervise recess to cut the costs a bit. And if someone brings a gun to school, they can “control” it.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  108. Gun-related homicides in Japan (2008): 11
    Gun-related homicides in the US (2008): 12,000

    Maybe we need to eat more raw fish.

    Seriously, I keep thinking about how many kids lives could have been saved if just one teacher or administrator or janitor or lunch lady had a weapon on campus and was trained to use it.

    That’s the tragedy.

    Sparrow (5c5d09)

  109. if he is 20 then he wasnt supposed to be able to get the handguns
    Comment by EPWJ (2a58f7) — 12/14/2012 @ 3:28 pm

    – The word is he got them from his mother’s house. Perhaps Leviticus can sue her ashes on behalf of the victims’ families.

    Icy (e74af9)

  110. what happened with the whole missing girlfriend thing

    happyfeet (5553f5)

  111. We had a police station in my high school, Kevin. Detectives, trained juvenile officers. And uniformed officers. And we still do. We take care of our kids.

    nk (875f57)

  112. BTW, gun laws in Connecticut require handgun buys to have a state permit and to have passed a background check. Long guns have fewer rules, but the only long gun here was found in the killer’s mom’s trunk. Not even clear he knew it was there.

    Again, crazy son with guns lying around. What could go wrong? You really cannot police stupidity — there would never be enough cops.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  113. We had a police station in my high school, Kevin. Detectives, trained juvenile officers. And uniformed officers. And we still do. We take care of our kids.

    Well, besides the unarmed school narc, we didn’t have any cops. Then again it was Newport Beach and 1972.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  114. what happened with the whole missing girlfriend thing

    She was probably imaginary.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  115. yeah i think it’s likely he was single

    happyfeet (5553f5)

  116. It turns out that gun ownership, both by household and by individual, has declined from 30% to 20%, and 50% to 35%, respectively between 1980 and 2010. So why all the violence? What part does the culture play in it? Instead of banning guns, maybe we should ban movies and TV shows that glorify gun use.

    Near as I can tell, more people are murdered in a season of Hawaii Five-0 than are killed in all of the real Hawaii (17 in 2011).

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  117. Hahaha… weird thread. Weird. Weird weird weird.

    Leviticus (17b7a5)

  118. If somebody asks me if I have a gun, I will say,”!@#%$^^&*($()))) so much for surveys.

    nk (875f57)

  119. Looks like old “Dad” was another drive by. Bon voyage, sucker!
    Comment by Gazzer (e0cb67) — 12/14/2012 @ 7:57 pm

    – “Dad” has been driving by for at least a year and a half; and No, he never engages anyone in an actual back & forth discussion.

    Icy (e74af9)

  120. I thought you were looking for a gun, Leviticus.

    I still suggest any of the Rugers. Revolver or semi, solid guns, good value.

    nk (875f57)

  121. Hahaha… weird thread. Weird. Weird weird weird.
    Comment by Leviticus (17b7a5) — 12/14/2012 @ 9:34 pm

    – Feel free to answer my questions at comment #107.

    Icy (e74af9)

  122. If we had banned cars, the shooter wouldn’t have been able to drive himself to the school.

    Let’s ban cars, so that future nuts won’t be able to drive themself to the school/shopping mall/movie theatre, et al, to harm people.

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  123. There are people who have done serious studies looking at crime stats in the US as correlated with gun ownership, etc.

    But rarely do people bother talking about that, primarily because a good analysis and not just cherry-picking shows gun ownership in the US decreases crime.

    When the law is on your side, pound the law; when the facts are on your side, pound the facts; when nothing is on your side but you want to argue anyway, pound the table, jump up and down and pound the floor, and scream repeatedly.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  124. Lets ban cars. fewer deaths, less pollution.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  125. Tra-la-la-la-la. Nothing to see here – just another two-dozen gun deaths in an afternoon, right?

    Who here has killed someone with a gun in self-defense, outside of a military context?

    Leviticus (17b7a5)

  126. “Feel free to answer my questions at comment #107.”

    - Icy

    Feel free to jump in a lake.

    Leviticus (17b7a5)

  127. “Again, crazy son with guns lying around. What could go wrong? You really cannot police stupidity”

    Kevin M. – Guns lying around? Yeah, kid just had to kill his mom to get them out of the house. Piece of cake.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  128. “I thought you were looking for a gun, Leviticus.”

    - nk

    When I’ve got the money – which is not right now, hahaha… and I have no time to camp right now either, which is what I really want the thing for anyway.

    Leviticus (17b7a5)

  129. Leviticus – Do you think mass shootings have become more frequent during the Obama Administration? If so, does that suggest to you that he’s doing something wrong?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  130. Leviticus-

    If you think people are not concerned about this tragedy feel free to jump in a lake yourself.

    If you want to have a serious discussion about the potential consequences of stricter control of guns or encouragment of more sane people to carry them, then we can have that, but as I said above, reasoned debate does not appear to be in season these days.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  131. There are people who have done serious studies looking at crime stats in the US as correlated with gun ownership, etc.

    Depends on how you count guns. In the US, more guns, fewer people owning them.

    Crime took off in England after they banned all the guns. Not so much gun crime, that went down, but everything else went noticeably up.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  132. “Tra-la-la-la-la. Nothing to see here”

    No, there’s something to see…there’s just nothing we can do about it.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  133. We should pass gun-control bills, so we can find out what’s in them !

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  134. “Feel free to answer my questions at comment #107.”
    - Icy
    Feel free to jump in a lake.
    Comment by Leviticus (17b7a5) — 12/14/2012 @ 9:56 pm

    – “Tra-la-la-la-la. Nothing to see here,” indeed.

    Icy (e74af9)

  135. Isn’t it curious how the person that wrote “Maybe we ought to have the conversation,” and “I just think it’s worth having the discussion,” doesn’t actually want to debate the issue AT ALL?

    Icy (e74af9)

  136. I would be very wary of taking Japanese crime statistics at face value. I know, for instance, that in other areas the Japanese government is very good at defining terms so as to make the government look good.

    Who is employed? In the US you have to work at least 8 hours a week to be considered a part time worker. In Japan it’s one hour. If you report you babysat for your sister, congratulations. You no longer count as unemployed for statistical purposes. Also if you’re over 50. Not even if you report you desperately need a job and are actively looking for work. That would put you amongst the ranks of the unemployed here but not Japan. Because everyone knows nobody hires 50 year old guys, the government considers your situation hopeless. Since you’re not employable you don’t count. In Japan to be considered unemployed you must not only actively look for work but have a snowflake’s chance in hell of finding it.

    As far as crime statistics go, if a parent kills his or her children (and even their spouse) before killing themselves it’s a “family suicide.” It’s not a murder/suicide as it would be here. Such creativity does wonder for making your murder stats look good.

    When I was recalled after 9/11 I was sent to Japan and assigned to force protection. I worked fairly closely with the local police. Japan does have a handgun problem, but you’d never know it from the lousy reporting. Fishermen rendezvous with Chinese or Russian boats and buy them, then smuggle them back into the country.

    It used to be that the Yakuza would try to bribe US sailors to bring back guns and ammo from the Philippines. In the old days a single round went for $100. No more. Now everyone can get whatever they need from China or Russia. And I do mean everyone. The Japanese cops longed for the old days when only the Yakuza had guns. And they didn’t go around promiscuously shooting just anyone. They left citizens out of it, and for the most part the cops let them go about their business as long as the Yakuza kept that business limited to themselves. Now anyone in Japan who wants a gun can get one. Hell, I could have found an illegal gun if I wanted.

    And when your average run-of-the-mill non-yakuza criminal commits a crime with a gun, the cops pointed out, he’ll use it. He’s convinced that was what he has to do if he has a gun. I recall a supermarket robbery in Machida, a Tokyo suburb not too far from a friend’s apartment where I often stayed. The employees gave the robber everything he wanted. Everything they had. He could have just left. Instead he just shot the three to death before leaving.

    Somehow I doubt that total figure of 11 gun homocides in 2008. You can’t really compare stats from one country to another because different countries define terms differently. When it comes to crime figures, the US and Japan really are speaking different languages.

    Steve57 (25fb74)

  137. Steve57 – Maybe we should just write a law banning murder instead of guns.

    Wait…..

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  138. Or make it illegal to murder people.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  139. For the children, arm the teachers.

    mg (31009b)

  140. So, his mom was a teacher at the school; but, since he had already killed her at home, this means she wasn’t at the school when he arrived. Why did they let him inside? Is the person that allowed him past the security door among the victims? If not, s/he has some explaining to do.

    Icy (e74af9)

  141. Notice not a single report notes that CT already has most of the gun control that gun control advocates claim is “reasonable”.

    SPQR (38e76d)

  142. Meanwhile, liberal policies continue to have a positive effect on the California economy.

    Icy (f2bdbd)

  143. Today I am upset that the parents of the babies in the school were not allowed in immediately to hold their children one more time.

    They knew who the killer was. I just don’t see the reason why “processing” the scene in a technical manner was more important than letting those parents in.
    Every instinct in a parents’ life is about protecting your small children. Knowing they had died frightened would be haunting. Knowing they had to lay in the school without you would be too much.

    I can’t stand it that this was done to them. It seems cruel and pointless.

    MayBee (085e06)

  144. MayBee@6:31–Wow. Did that ever touch a chord.

    elissa (416a98)

  145. “If you want to have a serious discussion about the potential consequences of stricter control of guns or encouragment of more sane people to carry them, then we can have that.”

    - MD in Philly

    Interesting framing you’ve got there. I want to have a serious conversation about gun deaths, whether or not a sharp reduction of the number of guns in circulation would reduce them, and (if so) whether or not the lives saved by that sharp reduction would be worth the loss in personal freedom it required.

    Leviticus (17b7a5)

  146. L.
    So to have that conversation in the U.S. would that need to be a worldwide sharp reduction or a national reduction or a state reduction or a county reduction or a city reduction? Don’t knee jerk. Think this through, OK? What kind of a world do you want to live in and leave to your progeny? Are you comfortable in a world where only criminals would have illegal/contraband guns along with government LE, despots, terrorists and armies (perhaps some/many of them rogue)?

    elissa (416a98)

  147. the passive voice is an interesting thing;

    http://www.washingtonguardian.com/washingtons-school-security-failure

    narciso (ee31f1)

  148. MayBee, it would have been the same if this had been a school bus that crashed through a guard-rail and went over a cliff.
    The Forensics people don’t want anyone “contaminating” their crime-scene, making it more difficult than it already is to sort out what the evidence tells them.
    It is unfortunate, but it is what it is.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  149. “An armed society is a polite society.
    Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
    Robert A. Heinlein

    askeptic (2bb434)

  150. Leviticus,

    Essential liberty versus temporary safety. You know the rest.

    NJRob (0ca3fc)

  151. Leviticus, I haven’t bothered following the details because I’m already convinced on the overall issue, for me the issue would be in the details.

    I think the expert is a sociologist from Yale, I am sure someone here knows who I am talking about.

    Meanwhile, do you have any idea how many parents were cruel to their children today and are pushing them towards delinquency?
    Yes, it was and is a terrible thing. There are lots of terrible things in this world, and while “common sense” can be helpful in many instances, knee-jerk reactions of wanting to issue some mandate on all of society rarely end up doing more good than harm.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  152. Interesting framing you’ve got there. I want to have a serious conversation about gun deaths, whether or not a sharp reduction of the number of guns in circulation would reduce them, and (if so) whether or not the lives saved by that sharp reduction would be worth the loss in personal freedom it required.

    Comment by Leviticus (17b7a5) — 12/15/2012 @ 7:30 am

    But you want to have that discussion by cherry-picking statistics and ignoring statistics that are inconvenient. That’s not a “discussion”.

    SPQR (768505)

  153. Comment by Dad (d01ca2) — 12/14/2012 @ 7:01 pm

    Among the dishonesties of “Dad” is that his link for the ridiculous claim of fewest firearm fatalities in struct gun law states was a chart that included deaths from legitimate self-defense shootings.

    That’s the kind of lies I have come to expect from gun control advocates.

    SPQR (768505)

  154. Comment by Icy (e74af9) — 12/15/2012 @ 5:50 am

    As is per usual in this story, there is more than one version of how he got into the school circulating.

    One says the principle buzzed him in (she is among the dead) because she recognized him as his mother’s son.

    Another says he smashed glass windows to get inside.

    The NYT reported the first version. I don’t know which version is true, or rather, if any version is true.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  155. Leviticus, why have that “conversation” until you brush up on the countries that did have that “conversation.” And I’m using the word “conversation” the same way Obama uses the word “ask.” As in “we’re also going to have to ask the wealthiest Americans to pay higher tax rates.” By which he means “coerce.” So “conversation” means “you shut up while I talk.”

    Disarming victim groups does nothing to reduce guns in circulation. And while it may satisfy nanny staters from South Africa to England to Argentina and beyond that it’s the hallmark of an advanced civilization when citizens, if they have to die, at least die unarmed it doesn’t please the victims much.

    Let’s not go to another country. In the aftermath of Sandy New Yorkers in areas like Far Rockaway were left cowering in their apartments as gangs roamed the street looting and committing other violent crimes.

    People were afraid to leave their homes unattended because then they’d have been looted, but they had no way to defend them. And the police, who Head NYC Nanny Bloomberg is convinced should have a monopoly on guns in his city, were nowhere to be seen.

    I take it you want to bring the benefits of this system to the rest of the country?

    Steve57 (25fb74)

  156. 156. Among the dishonesties of “Dad” is that his link for the ridiculous claim of fewest firearm fatalities in struct gun law states was a chart that included deaths from legitimate self-defense shootings.

    That’s the kind of lies I have come to expect from gun control advocates.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 12/15/2012 @ 9:45 am

    Gun banning groups like “The Children’s Defense Fund” pad the stats to advance the lie that guns are this enormous public health menace to children by padding the stats to include young adults under their definition of children. Also, they include offenders gunned down by police in the course of committing violent crimes as “victims” of this “epidemic.”

    Another mode of dishonesty is to confine “effective defensive use” of firearms to actual shootings. These “public health” researchers ignore incidents when the mere display of a firearm led to the criminal fleeing or being captured. Only if it’s discharged do they count it.

    This sort of thing isn’t research; it’s a fraud. The whole point of treating guns like a disease is to advance an agenda camouflaged as scientific research.

    It is nothing of the sort. Public health studies of gun use is to scientific research what astrology is to astrophysics.

    Steve57 (25fb74)

  157. Icy – “Adam Lanza smashed the glass of the front door according to a police lieutenant and was not buzzed in through the front door.

    The school’s well-liked principal, Dawn Hochsprung, was believed to be among the dead.”

    http://nj1015.com/looking-for-answers-following-connecticut-shooting-video/

    This is what police are saying- there’s vid of the press conference. I think the NYT may have fudged the buzz-in part based on speculations.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  158. It is nothing of the sort. Public health studies of gun use is to scientific research what astrology is to astrophysics.

    Next time I need advice on cardiac health, I will consult with Jiffy Lube.

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  159. Copied from Sayuncle:

    A 20 year-old had a couple of handguns (illegal). And, depending on the press report, had an assault weapon (illegal), automatic rifle (illegal), or machine gun (illegal). Shot his mom in the face (illegal). Stole his mom’s vehicle (illegal). Transported the gun in the vehicle (illegal) within 1,000 feet of a school (illegal). Carried it onto school property (illegal). Broke and entered (illegal). Carried a gun in a school (illegal). Discharged a firearm (illegal). Shot at people (illegal). Killed some people (illegal). Killed himself (not sure if illegal).

    And I’m sure broke other laws I’m not aware of. But, you know, one more gun law ought to do it. Right?

    Also, the semi-automatic 5.56 or machine gun or automatic rifle or assault weapons (depending on the source) was much vilified as news of the shooting broke. But that weapon remained in the car.

    SPQR (768505)

  160. They are now saying 4 handguns were recovered from the school. NBC says the “AR15-like assault weapon” remained in the car.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  161. Also, the semi-automatic 5.56 or machine gun or automatic rifle or assault weapons (depending on the source) was much vilified as news of the shooting broke. But that weapon remained in the car.

    The idea that what this shooter had in his possession was an automatic weapon is ludicrous.

    “Assault weapon” is a fictional category of rifles or shotguns that look like automatic military weapons but aren’t.

    Here’s the going rate for NFA-registered automatic weapons:

    http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/?db=nfafirearms&category=All+Items+in+this+Category&query=category&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=headlines

    19 Colt AR15, 614 in Excellent Cond… Ruben Mendiola * C3 Since 1985 $18,495.00 12/10/2012 Details

    20 Colt M16A1, Rifle in Excellent Ruben Mendiola * C3 Since 1985 $20,995.00 12/10/2012 Details

    Ironically if the Dems ban “assault weapon” look alikes of the real thing, the real thing remains legal to buy, own, and sell as long as it’s registered per the National Firearms Act.

    They are real machine guns, but they are too expensive to be used in crimes. I believe National Firearms Act was signed into law in 1934 exactly one has been used in a crime.

    Steve57 (25fb74)

  162. “Assault weapon” is an utterly meaningless, made up term that is based upon silly, cosmetic features. “Assault rifle” describes a military issue rifle, firing an intermediate power cartridge capable of full automatic or multiple bursts and such rifles are not available to the general public in the US except for very limited and very expensive examples that take a great deal of paperwork to obtain under the NFA of 1934.

    SPQR (768505)

  163. Steve57, Sayuncle was ridiculing the news media description of the rifle.

    SPQR (768505)

  164. SPQR, I understand what Sayuncle was doing. But it may not have been obvious to people who aren’t in the know. So I thought I’d make his ridicule of the notion the shooter had a machine gun more plainly laughable.

    The reason the gun-grabbers make up terms like “assault weapon” is to perpetrate a fraud. And it works because most people aren’t familiar with the characteristics of the firearms in question.

    The US was the first military to adopt a semi-auto rifle for general issue and that wasn’t until 1936.

    On the other hand, semi-auto rifles and shotguns had been used by sportsmen for decades before they were adopted by militaries. I inherited two Browning Auto-5 shotguns, a model that had been in production since 1905 (hence the name). Remington produced its Model 8 semi-auto rifle starting in 1906. You have long been able to get extended box magazines for them. I find them decidedly AK-looking when you attach such a mag to one.

    http://archive.heinessen.com/boards/k/img/0126/84/1346952936300.jpg

    All an “assault weapon” is is a rifle or shotgun that works no differently than rifles or shotguns that have been in the hands of the general public since the turn of the last century. But it looks like the scary guns the military and cops use.

    Of course, the fact that the gun grabbers lie and say they’re actually machine guns is part of the rank dishonesty. Retired Gen. Weaselly Clark is undoubtedly the worst. He’ll go on TV and say, “If you want to play with machine guns you need to join the army.” He’s not too stupid to know the difference. He’s just is incapable of telling the truth.

    Long a habit of his, as I had friends who served under the lying, self-serving arrogant perfumed prince in the Balkans.

    Steve57 (25fb74)

  165. Then there is ex-Marine Mark Shields who says this:

    In the United States of America in 2012, it’s easier in many states . . . to buy an automatic weapon than it is to rent an automobile.

    I find it hard to believe that an ex-Marine doesn’t know guns, so this is pretty much proof of the intellectual dishonesty (AKA lying) that typifies much of the anti-gun side.

    btw, I find it similarly revealing that PBS Newshour thinks Mark Shields and David Brooks represent the span of [acceptable] political thought.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  166. Leviticus – I think everyone just needs to stay focused on not letting this crisis going to waste.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  167. Westboro Baptist Church will picket the funerals.

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  168. Lev,

    The purpose of the 2nd amendment is not just self defense or hunting, but for protecting ourselves from tyranny. An armed man is a citizen. A disarmed man is a subject.

    Ghost (2d8874)

  169. Westboro Baptist Church will picket the funerals.

    Comment by Michael Ejercito (2e0217) — 12/15/2012 @ 12:37 pm

    How the hell can these people afford to travel across the country pissing people off? Who is funding these f-wads?

    Ghost (2d8874)

  170. Well, as long as we’re having the “conversation” let’s look at the effect of imaginary reduction of guns in circulation that gun bans produce.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html

    Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade

    That’d be the decade since private ownership of handguns was banned in 1997. Legally held handguns were confiscated and destroyed, and no new ones were legally sold since.

    In eighteen police areas, gun crime at least doubled.

    …Last week, police in London revealed they had begun carrying out armed patrols on some streets.

    The move means officers armed with sub-machine guns are engaged in routine policing for the first time.

    …Lancashire suffered the single largest rise in gun crime, with recorded offences increasing from 50 in 1998/99 to 349 in 2007/08, an increase of 598 per cent.

    So let’s understand the parameters of this “conversation,” Leviticus.

    You’d prefer false hope, wishfull thinking, and imaginary results over retaining concrete means of self-defense.

    I thought the WaPo captured the concept perfectly. I was working for a defense contractor, back in DC to train client agency personnel on a new software suite. While they took a written exam I browsed the paper. There was an article comparing the pros and cons of living in Virginia vs. Maryland.

    Under the heading of crime, the WaPo noted Virginia had the lower crime rate. But the WaPo helpfully pointed out that many people (no doubt they understand the mindset of the typical WaPo reader) would feel safer in Maryland because concealed carry was illegal and thus you could dine out secure in the knowledge that no one nearby was carrying a concealed weapon.

    Liberal logic at its finest. After acknowledging Maryland to be the more dangerous of the two states in terms of crime the WaPo offers the fictional notion that a law preventing someone from going through a background check and training in order to legally carry a concealed weapon means that nobody in that diner has a concealed weapon.

    And thus by the same token there are no handguns in Britain since they were banned back in ’97.

    If you’re a WaPo reporter you can now “feel” safer when you go out to dine in Lancashire than you would have in 1996.

    Steve57 (25fb74)

  171. 132.“I thought you were looking for a gun, Leviticus.”

    - nk

    When I’ve got the money – which is not right now, hahaha… and I have no time to camp right now either, which is what I really want the thing for anyway.

    Comment by Leviticus (17b7a5) — 12/14/2012 @ 10:07 pm

    I could gift you my .380 (I can’t shoot it anymore) but your FFL would need to contact my FFL, you pay the FFL fees and shipping costs. Or you can come to Illinois, establish residence, and get a FOID.

    Or you can park on the shoulder of a highway underpass, where black teenagers are selling crack, and say “I’m not looking for crack, I want a gun”.

    I think it would be Mexican kids in your part of the country? ;)

    Or you just live in the neighborhood, trusted not to be a snitch, and tell somebody you trust not to be a snitch that you want a gun.

    nk (875f57)

  172. Or the faster way, nk, which is to ask Eric Holder to ship you some AR’s via the ATF.

    SPQR (768505)

  173. ‘Well, as long as we’re having the “conversation” let’s look at the effect of imaginary reduction of guns in circulation that gun bans produce.’

    Homicide rate in England/Wales in 1900 with essentially no gun control at all: 0.96 per 100,000 inhabitanta.

    Homicide rate in England/Wales in 2003, (100 years after the passage of the first of their many gun control acts): 1.75 homicides per 100,000 inhabitants.

    So far, so good.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  174. Actually, I was just kidding about having the “conversation.”

    What’s curious about liberals is that they somehow haven’t realized we have this “conversation” all the freakin’ time. Or rather, I guess they can’t acknowledge that fact as the gun control side of the “conversation” always fails to convince. I think most people realize, as I do, that if these mass shootings have increased it’s because something has changed.

    And it isn’t the widespread availability of guns because they used to be more freely available than now. It isn’t as if semi-auto rifles, shotguns, or handguns are new technology; 1896 Broomhandle Mauser, anyone? It isn’t as if even machine guns are more widely available now than ever. Up until 1934 you could walk into a hardware store and buy a Tommy gun. They used to market them to people living on the border as violence from Mexican revolutions kept spilling over.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/kingpowercinema/35177769/

    (And I know people living on the border now still wish they were available.)

    What’s changed is the fact that due to liberal policies society has been coarsened and people are less able to self-govern.

    Plus people charged with upholding the law refuse to fulfill their responsibilities and see to it that those mentally unfit to possess firearms are flagged for that purpose.

    Yup. I read all the excuses for not “stigmatizing” the mentally ill. It’s just BS. It’s just an excuse for not upholding the law and, frankly I am convinced the more I hear the excuses it’s a deliberate policy to leave ticking time bombs in the community in order to coerce people who aren’t the problem to give up their rights.

    As if coarsening society isn’t a deliberate policy.

    The whenever those time bombs go off out come the liberals saying it’s finally time to have a “serious conversation” about gun control.

    As if we hadn’t had that conversation before. Or it wasn’t serious. Or the only reason the rest of us don’t kill our own parents and wipe out a classroom full of 6 and 7 year olds is because liberals haven’t made it sufficiently illegal.

    As opposed to the obvious; the people who do these things are unhinged and the liberals refuse to do anything about them when given the chance.

    Sorry, Leviticus. No dice. We’re not going to continue to sit still for the “conversation” after “conversation” until you and your ilk gets its way and it’s just a one-way lecture. The rest of us aren’t going to give up rights because the liberals in charge continue to be derelict in their duties in order to compel us to do exactly that. Especially when even if you guys get your way all you’re getting for a mass violation of rights is a fiction. An illusion that you’ve done something about the number of guns circulating in society.

    Steve57 (25fb74)

  175. Yes, we’re ready for an argument, try and make one,
    excerpting the Columbine original plan to blow up the school, just like the Bath Schoolhouse decision, of 1927, the cutting of school resources officers by the dOJ, the prevention of civil institutionalization reform in Connecticut,

    narciso (ee31f1)

  176. Yes, we’re ready for an argument, try and make one,
    excerpting the Columbine original plan to blow up the school, just like the Bath Schoolhouse decision, of 1927, the cutting of school resources officers by the dOJ, the prevention of civil institutionalization reform in Connecticut,

    Concerning institutionalization, why not establish random mental health checks, and either internment or euthanasia of those who fail?

    What could go wrong?

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  177. I just think it’s worth having the discussion about many gun-murders a year the Second Amendment is worth.

    Let us discuss how many people killed by government guns.

    Just this year, there was a massacre of noncombatants at Pnajwai, Kandahar, Afghanistan, perpetrated by someone with a government gun.

    Should we disarm government? Or abolish it?

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  178. Should we disarm government? Or abolish it?

    Abolish.

    Ghost (2d8874)

  179. Well that’s not standard procedure, that’s why he’s being tried,

    narciso (ee31f1)

  180. JD: Breaking news is wildly inaccurate in the first 24-48 hours, generally.

    It’s got both accuracies which get lost later, and inaccuracies. You have to read both.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  181. Comment by Ghost (2d8874) — 12/16/2012 @ 5:09 pm

    Didn’t Jefferson once say that if faced with the choice of a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government; he would prefer the latter.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  182. Comment by Michael Ejercito (2e0217) — 12/15/2012 @ 10:54 pm

    I’m sure DHS could find justification for that within the Patriot Act.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  183. Sometimes you only know how to read the inaccuracies later.

    Braking news has much more detail, sometimes, and things haven’t had time to settle into a (sometimes inaccurate on key points) narrative.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  184. List of inaccuracies in this story:

    Very early the name of the shooter was given as Ryan Lanza. Some people said right away this had to be Adam (like Beth Israel on Twitter. Beth Israel is the name of a person who lived nearby, 6 houses away, and whose daughter went to school with Adam Lanza, but lost contact with the family the last 2 or 3 years)

    The reason his name was given as Ryan Lanza is that he had on his person an ID of his 24-year old brother Ryan.

    It was said he killed his father. He did not.

    They said children between the ages of 5 and 10 were killed. This even got into President Obama’s statement. Actually they were all between 6 or 7 – in the first grade. Five to ten might be the approximate ages of all children who attended that school. It goes from kindergarten through the 4th grade. But he only went into one or two first grade classes.

    It was said his mother was a kindergarten teacher in that school. Then, that she used to be a kindergarten teacher in that school. And maybe quit to take care of him. This had given me ideas that maybe he went there for a reason connected with that.

    Then, that she actually never had worked in that school. Which sounded like she had no connection with that school whatsoever!

    But what’s his connection to the school, then?

    Now it is maybe he attended that school once (but it turns out they moved from New Hampshire when he was eight years old,so if he went there, it wasn’t in the first grade anyway and probably not that classroom.)

    Or maybe his mother worked – or volunteered? – there as an aide. This is still not clear to me.

    It was said he used the two guns he had, and he didn’t use the rifle which was found in the car.

    So I thought well, maybe that’s one thing that worked – he had to be buzzed in – this was something new – so he couldn’t take the rifle. And I thought also maybe a rifle is slower.

    Then it came out in fact no, he used the Bushmaster rifle and he didn’t use the pistols.

    There was a weapon found (in the trunk) of the car – that was a 4th weapon.

    On the Internet they found some information they were putting on a new protocol – after 9:30 AM you needed to be buzzed in. (there was a camera and a video feed)

    It was said he was buzzed in because he used his brother’s ID. This made no sense, because there wouldn’t be a list of all people who could come in. The ID couldn’t play a part.

    It was said he was let in because he was recognized by the principal. Actually the principal was in her office. They were having a staff meeting.

    Actually he was not buzzed in at all. He used the rifle to break the glass and walk in.

    It was said that victims were shot at close range. Actually, all but two were shot from a distance. They all had (those who died) between 3 and 11 bullets in them.

    It was said he visited the day before and fought with some people at the school. There were no details for that that I heard. Now it turns out that’s not so, although some people are thinking maybe he visited the school and didn’t fight, or it didn’t rise to the level of an “altercation.”

    I think the principal was said to be 27 years old. Actually, she was 47. One teacher killed was 27.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  185. What happened in the principal’s office:

    They heard gunshots, and a bunch of kids scream, and then just more gunshots. The principal and school psychologist went outside to see what was going on. She apparently attempted to stop him and got killed.

    Meanwhile, another teacher pressed her body against the door to keep it closed. Unlike other rooms, there was no lock on the door. She was shot through the door in her arm and her leg, but he left to go look for easier targets.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  186. Askeptic,

    It sounds like something he’d say, but I’ve always preferred Spooner to Jefferson.

    Sammy,

    I figure, somewhere around a week from now, we might get something resembling an accurate report.

    Ghost (2d8874)

  187. This doesn’t sound like anything Jefferson would say. It sounds like a fake quote somebody made up between about 1860 and 1935.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  188. Gun-related homicides in Japan (2008): 11
    Gun-related homicides in the US (2008): 12,000

    What’s so special about “gun-related”? Dead is dead. And when you compare total homicides, add suicides (to allow for the difference in reporting), and adjust for demographics, suddenly your difference disappears.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  189. . I just think it’s worth having the discussion about many gun-murders a year the Second Amendment is worth.

    Right after we discuss how many deaths the first amendment is worth. How many soldiers’ lives could have been saved if the news media had been prevented from running the Abu Ghraib photos, if Newsweek had been prevented from running that fake photo of the koran in the toilet, how many lives could have been saved if the fake photo of Mohammed al-Dura could have been suppressed, or the Mohammed cartoons, or the SWIFT story, or so many others. And how many copycat mass-shootings could be prevented if the press were banned from reporting them? Tell me how many lives the first amendment is worth, and then we can discuss the second. And then go on to how many lives the fourth, fifth, and sixth are worth, taking into account people killed by murderers who were walking the streets only because of those amendments.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  190. Comment by Ghost (2d8874) — 12/16/2012 @ 7:22 pm Sammy,

    I figure, somewhere around a week from now, we might get something resembling an accurate report.

    We’ll have all the media outlets get some facts wrong too, then. It would be hard to find something without any mistake.

    Sammy Finkelman (a551ff)

  191. Comment by Milhouse (15b6fd) — 12/16/2012 @ 11:05 pm

    How many soldiers’ lives could have been saved if the news media had been prevented from running the Abu Ghraib photos, if Newsweek had been prevented from running that fake photo of the koran in the toilet, how many lives could have been saved if the fake photo of Mohammed al-Dura could have been suppressed, or the Mohammed cartoons,

    These didn’t cause any more deaths than the Innocence of Muslims YouTube video caused the Cairo and Benghazi and other attacks, but it’s because of all these previous incidents that it sounded kind of believable to some people.

    It may not happen any more. I think that’s played out and too many people see through it.

    Maybe the Mohammed al Dura picture did affect a few people, but only because it was tied into so much more.

    Sammy Finkelman (a551ff)

  192. Perhaps we need to have each school hire a retired cops to sit around, armed, just in case. They can teach PE or supervise recess to cut the costs a bit.

    Why? Just let the teachers and other staff who are already being paid bring the arms they already have. If that’s not enough, then offer a small pay bump to those who qualify for CCW and agree to come to work armed.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  193. How the hell can these people afford to travel across the country pissing people off? Who is funding these f-wads?

    Lawsuits against people who beat them up. And other legal work; they are lawyers after all. And how much does travel cost, already? They’ve got the caravans, they just have to pay for fuel, etc.

    The “Westboro Baptist Church” is not an actual church, or any other kind of group, it’s just a single extended family with a fancy name.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  194. How many soldiers’ lives could have been saved if the news media had been prevented from running the Abu Ghraib photos, if Newsweek had been prevented from running that fake photo of the koran in the toilet, how many lives could have been saved if the fake photo of Mohammed al-Dura could have been suppressed, or the Mohammed cartoons,

    These didn’t cause any more deaths than the Innocence of Muslims YouTube video caused the Cairo and Benghazi and other attacks, but it’s because of all these previous incidents that it sounded kind of believable to some people.

    What are you talking about? The deaths caused by these things are very very real. Not like this fake Cairo/Benghazi thing.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  195. Why didn’t the Leftists get all upset over the 300 deaths that resulted from Obama’s Guns for Gangster operation?

    Bobalink (cbee97)

  196. How many lives has the 8th-A caused because murderers are not put to death because executions are “icky”?

    askeptic (b8ab92)

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