Patterico's Pontifications

11/30/2012

Obama “Proposal”: More Stimulus Spending, Lots of Taxes — And Cuts to Be Determined in the Future Sometime

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 6:29 am

More stimulus spending! Cuts to be worked on in the future!

House Republicans said on Thursday that Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner presented the House speaker, John A. Boehner, a detailed proposal to avert the year-end fiscal crisis with $1.6 trillion in tax increases over 10 years, an immediate new round of stimulus spending, home mortgage refinancing and a permanent end to Congressional control over statutory borrowing limits.

The proposal, loaded with Democratic priorities and short on detailed spending cuts, was likely to meet strong Republican resistance. In exchange for locking in the $1.6 trillion in added revenues, President Obama embraced $400 billion in savings from Medicare and other entitlements, to be worked out next year, with no guarantees.

“I won.”

I agree with Krauthammer. It’s an insult. Quite a deliberate one. Don’t offer a counterproposal. Walk away.

Tell the American people that, after adding $5 trillion in spending we couldn’t afford, Obama wants to spend more. It’s impossible to negotiate with someone who opens with a joke proposal.

No counter proposal to a joke. Walk away.

325 Responses to “Obama “Proposal”: More Stimulus Spending, Lots of Taxes — And Cuts to Be Determined in the Future Sometime”

  1. Ding.

    Patterico (8b3905)

  2. The house should respond by passing a bill that automatically lowers the debt ceiling and cancels congressional and executive staff pay in years that a budget has not been passed, effective beginning February 2013.

    Hell, they should pass a balanced budget amendment. Make that the counteroffer and let the media spin it.

    Dustin (73fead)

  3. Tossed out for discussion:

    What’s so bad about the “fiscal cliff”? Am I crazy? We have a horrible horrible debt burden and the fiscal cliff gives us tax hikes and spending cuts. It does nothing about entitlements as far as I know, but we’re not doing anything about entitlements anyway.

    Yes, it will tank the economy in the short run. So tell voters that. This is what Obama wants by not negotiating. But we have to suffer pain sometime anyway with $16 trillion of debt. Why not suffer some now?

    To me, the fiscal cliff is a bad option, but if it’s that or this lame non-proposal, it’s way better.

    Patterico (8b3905)

  4. I don’t get why the spending cuts are so horrible. $100B in actual cuts is a drop in the bucket, approx 1/13th of the deficit from this last year.

    JD (318f81)

  5. John Boehner doesn’t have anything to prove to you people

    happyfeet (59b1dd)

  6. The democrats who have sworn and oath of office have already made a deal with the American people to pass a budget. Their refusal to do so is all the indication we have about whether the GOP can make a deal with the democrats too… especially with ‘no guarantee’ and ‘within ten years’ clauses.

    This reminds me of a junior salesman making a tough pitch to put the other party in their place. The GOP’s ‘don’t care the horses’ political strategy for the past fifteen years has led directly to this day.

    Dustin (73fead)

  7. Back in the early 60′s, I was part of a team from Stanford trying to negotiate terms of a relationship with the University of Warsaw. Their idea of negotiation is the same Republicans are encountering with Obama. Heads they win, tales you loose. Even if you do get some concessions, their word has no meaning. Think of Obama as a Marxist version of Lucy( kick the football Charlie Brown).

    Bar Sinister (664312)

  8. Sounds like Big Bird is getting a pay raise !

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  9. I’m not surprised that President Obama thinks he can do whatever he wants. He’s a two-term President with a Democratic Senate, both of whom were re-elected despite horrible economic conditions and by voters who know the Democrats favor tax hikes and profligate spending.

    The best thing Republicans can do is hang tough for the good of our economy and the country. Bring on sequestration and the fiscal cliff.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  10. Rough guess–only approximately 35% of the public 16 years and older have even heard the words “fiscal cliff”. Of that number probably less than 10 percent have even a vague idea of what it means and how it came about, and why actions or inactions taken in the next few weeks in Washington might mean something in regard to both their short term and their long term futures. Of that number I’m betting less than 2% have a decent grasp of the 16 trillion hanging over this nation’s head or of the cuts, the taxes, and the other possible options feckless Dems and Repubs currently in power have at their disposal.

    elissa (554a0c)

  11. Comment by Dustin (73fead) — 11/30/2012 @ 6:38 am

    Approve of the hardball approach, but of course that’s a pipe dream.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  12. If it’s good enough for Greece, it’s good enough for us.

    Thanks, liberals. Your compassion and generosity truly touch and soothe the heart.

    Mark (56b304)

  13. Clinton managed to demagogue a budget showdown into the GOP’s “fault”. Obama thinks he can do the same.

    The GOP has to get ahead of the White House propaganda on this one or they’ll get rolled.

    SPQR (768505)

  14. I have a bad feeling on this one. Just so there is no confusion, the guy on his knees is Boehner…

    EBL (d0b1d5)

  15. They will get rolled but I hope they will hang tough anyway.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  16. People deserve the government they get, and they deserve to get it good and hard.
    - H.L. Mencken

    JD (318f81)

  17. That is an absolute joke of a proposal.

    Leviticus (17b7a5)

  18. Since the time I first understood the impact on my life of the elections (circa 1968) I have observed a certain sure occurrence: The Democrats will ask for more taxes, the Republicans will counter will demands for spending cuts. With the end result of The Republicans ALWAYS losing.

    Either by capitulation or by a seeming win but where it turns out that the cuts will take place at some time in the “future” (which apparently we never reach) while the taxes will take effect asap.

    The end result is always the same: taxes go up and spending goes up.

    Enough.

    I’m done with any Republican, the Party and the talking head so called conservative punditry (who if you examine closely tend to have their roots in the Democrat party or the liberal wing of the Republican party).

    After so many years of watching the same old scenario play itself out to the same old conclusion, I’ve finally lost my willingness to suspend disbelief.

    I predict that if the Republicans do this so soon after such a traumatic loss, they will be finished as a national party within 6 years.

    I know, I won’t be voting for them anymore.

    “If you hold your nose long enough, you’ll die or at least pass out.”

    Jcw46 (eda37d)

  19. Democrats don’t really care about how the inevitable failure of their polices effect regular people, except for how it effects their re-election prospects. That’s the only thing that matters to them.

    There once was a time when media scrutiny acted as a natural corrective force on the election process, such that the boneheadedness of democrat policies was factored into the equation. Those days are behind us.

    If we wait for a majority of our citizenry to figure this out for themselves, we’ll be waiting a long, long time.

    Pious Agnostic (7c3d5b)

  20. Yes, go on TV and show this graph and then walk away.

    They should buy ad time if no media will host them. The Romney gurus should have plenty of our money left over to fund it.

    Patricia (be0117)

  21. Obama will come up with another proposal – after January 1, when the sequester hits..

    The only thing Obama wants right now is an increase in the top two income tax brackets while leaving all other brackets the same as they are now – and it doesn’t have to be all the way to what it was before the Bush tax cuts.

    Most in danger – the low tax rate on corporate dividends..

    Mitt Romney wanted to let dividends be excludable but only if total income was not too high – this gets in the way of trying to get corporations to favor stock and dividends over bonds.

    Corporate profits can be overstated, but it is much rarer for a dividend to be “cooked” although it happpened with Clabir.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  22. Obamaa thinks he’ll have more bargaining power after we go over the fiscal cliff than before.

    What is he truly interested in?

    Probably nothing special except that whatever happens, the top marginal tax rates should go up without lower brackets going up.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  23. Here are some reasons why I think the GOP should bite the bullet and go over the cliff:

    First, it’s better than no spending cuts, which is what the Democrats are proposing. I’m so cynical about Obama and the Democrats that I suspect they will find a way to suspend any spending cuts to which they might actually (or accidentally) agree.

    Second, the problem with giving Obama what he wants is that he won’t own it. The GOP will have voted for it, too, so it will be “bi-partisan” blame. Then when things get worse instead of better, it will support Obama’s claim that “Bush’s economy” was in worse shape than anyone realized and it will take years to fix.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  24. I agree with DRJ’s 9:27 am comment. If, as Sammy Finkelman suggests at 9:12 am, the Obama endgame is to let the Bush tax cuts expire and then propose only to renew the cuts on income below the $200/250k level, the GOP should adopt an attitude that this represents brand-new a tax cut and must be paid for with corresponding spending cuts under the pay-as-you-go rules. That middle-class tax cut figure is something like $300B annually, right, so the net effect would be raising taxes on “the wealthy” at $1600B ($1.6T) over 10 years as Obama has been demanding, with a corresponding spending cut of $3000B ($3.0T) over that same period. That less than 2:1 cuts to taxes ratio is not all that promising, but it may be the best that we can get now that Obama and the Dems have been given a new lease.

    JVW (4826a9)

  25. Well, thanks to the economy, we’re under the $250k level (corporate decision to cut my ex-wife’s medical research funding) so I guess it’s fine by me.

    nk (875f57)

  26. Will I still be able to deduct my medical expenses?

    nk (875f57)

  27. “Corporate profits can be overstated, but it is much rarer for a dividend to be “cooked” although it happpened with Clabir.”

    Sammy – Corporations do not need profits to declare dividends.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  28. I’m with Red. Let it burn. Repubs will be blamed for the inevitable regardless. Let the Bush cuts expire also so that everyone can feel some pain while JEF is still Prez so that even the dunces that voted for him will slowly realize that Barry is to blame.
    I would much rather blow this sh*t up sooner rather than later so we can get started on trying to salvage this thing. I will survive but I am not so sure the “takers” will. Which is rather the point.

    Gazzer (e70d98)

  29. I don’t think the rating agencies will be looking favorably on the joke proposals coming out of the White House. I don’t thin Obama can blame their commentary on Republicans.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  30. Yes, to hell with the American People and what they want and think is best…Daddy Wingnut knows better.

    What a joke.

    P. Tillman (554a0c) (fcbc8b)

  31. ==the problem with giving Obama what he wants is that he won’t own it. The GOP will have voted for it, too, so it will be “bi-partisan” blame. Then when things get worse instead of better, it will support Obama’s claim that “Bush’s economy” was in worse shape than anyone realized and it will take years to fix.==

    DRJ– I wonder if it matters at this point. I, (like I think many of us on the right) am having to re-evaluate almost everything I thought I ever knew about politics and and how both elected officials and the American people respond to risks and reward. The fact that unpopular Obamacare was pushed through without R support–the fact that to this day more Americans still regularly say in polls they hate Obamacare than say they want it–and the fact that the 2012 R presidential candidate and R candidates at all levels promised they’d work to repeal Obamacare on day one– were factors which logically should all have combined to eke out an R win on Nov 6. But it didn’t happen.

    You’d think that 59 million of us would count for something in the equation and in fiscal cliff “proposals”, wouldn’t you? But obviously to President Obama we don’t count. That points to an ugly truth almost too painful to contemplate.

    elissa (554a0c)

  32. Comment by Gazzer (e70d98) — 11/30/2012 @ 9:52 am

    Let the Bush cuts expire also so that everyone can feel some pain while

    Nobody will feel any pain for a while, because the Treasury will telkl people they don’t have to chaznge withholding tables – and withholdinmg taxes are not due till after March 31.

    If the rates don’t get set back for lower income people, people will feel a lot of pain in the spring of 2014, or when the withholding changes – which will have to make up for what was not withheld in January.

    The rates will get set back, but if the Democrats are stubborn, they won’t get set back, or won’t get set back all the way, on the top two brackets.

    There may also be some changes in deductions – maybe a maximum deduction in addition to the minimum – perhaps some deductions will be capped but others will not be.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  33. “Yes, to hell with the American People and what they want and think is best…Daddy Wingnut Obama knows better.

    What a joke.”

    Petey – Fixed that for you. Worst recovery in 70 years. How’s that Hope and Change working out for you?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  34. Obama wants to make sure he can say that if anyone is feeling pain the people in the highest tax brackets felt the pain first.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  35. “I don’t get why the spending cuts are so horrible. $100B in actual cuts is a drop in the bucket, approx 1/13th of the deficit from this last year.”

    There are 100B things you don’t get.

    That includes nearly everything there is to know about economics.

    Why should anyone “compromise” with a party who:

    Destroyed the budget surplus
    Drastically increased the size of government
    Drastically reduced the amount of federal revenue
    Would rather build roads in Iraq than in America
    Screams bloody murder even at the slightest pinprick
    Has only one goal in mind: destroy the government so that wealthy individuals and corporations can function.

    In other words….STFU Wingnuts, you’re chance to be heard has long passed.

    P. Tillman (554a0c) (fcbc8b)

  36. Yup these losers need to hang tough like a new kid and break out with the jeans shorts and high tops they have to do it for America

    r u tuff enuff Johnny Boner?

    r ya?

    happyfeet (689ae0)

  37. “In other words….STFU Wingnuts, you’re chance to be heard has long passed.”

    Petey – Why did the people of America reelect a Republican House of Representatives, moron?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  38. Obama does not have to worry about reelection. He does not have to worry about his popularity with the American people. The Europeans and the rest of the world love him just fine, and they will keep loving him even more as he makes us more socialist and less competitive.

    Last time around he had to take the election into consideration. That is when he did the deal we are calling the “fiscal cliff.” There will be no better deal now.

    Going over the fiscal cliff is a truly horrible idea that is far better than any of the alternatives Obama would actually sign.

    Roland (460e85)

  39. Illman thinks “slashing” 100b from a 3.5T will fix anything?!

    JD (518ff4)

  40. daley, I’ll give Tillary! this. He/she/it manages to package an entire book’s worth of stupidity into a fairly brief comment.

    Of course it helps that Tillary!’s simply regurgitating Demo bumper-sticker length talking points.

    Steve57 (7a880e)

  41. Petey is here, so I am off…

    Gazzer (e70d98)

  42. Pour some gas on that fire.

    mg (31009b)

  43. 36. “STFU Wingnuts”

    Words to live by. Just talking with the in-laws yesterday, Obots. They don’t even see medical bills on Medicare. May soon not find a provider to see them but no copays while it lasts.

    Caller Id should enable one to talk only to those one knows. Put the Libs on a No Call list. If they get thru tell them you’re reporting their azz and to never call again.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  44. DRJ– I wonder if it matters at this point. I, (like I think many of us on the right) am having to re-evaluate almost everything I thought I ever knew about politics and and how both elected officials and the American people respond to risks and reward.

    Great observation, elissa. The problem as I see it is that we have allowed politics to overwhelm policy. The coverage of ObamaCare was always far less about what will actually happen policy-wise (what Medicare cuts need to be made, how will physician to patient ratios affect care, how much more health care will the public expect to receive) and always about what effect ObamaCare would have on the 2012 election, or Obama’s “legacy,” or dozens of other things far removed from the major concerns of everyday citizens. Same thing is now going on with the budget cliff negotiations. No one in the media seems all that interested in whether this will do anything to solve our long-range problems, it’s all about whether Obama will “win” and which special interest groups will be taken care of my which politicians. Just as in 22 short months we will all be fixated on whether the Democrats can make gains in the House or Republicans can make gains in the Senate, and what that does for the 2016 Presidential landscape. Politics is just sports for the pseudo-intellectual Washington crowd.

    JVW (4826a9)

  45. 31. “to hell with the American People”

    Listen up, o you disenfranchised, yearning to be free, the 50.4% are “the American People” now and ye be waiting for the Recycling truck.

    Tipped your garbage man yet?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  46. Just to add to my earlier comment, I think this is the major failure of progressives. They are great at uncovering (exploiting?) a need or desire of the citizens, then proposing and advocating some sort of solution (invariably government-centric) for that need. As in the case of national health insurance, they will spend decades and decades promoting their solutions until they finally prevail.

    Where progressives fail, however, is that they have a lousy track record of actually implementing their grand schemes. After the bills are passed and the politicians and lobbyists take their bows, nobody wants to do the difficult and unglamorous work of trying to make sure the policy is implemented rationally and honestly, so we end up with colossal messes like the Great Society or like the Obama stimulus mess. The progressives, by this team, have moved on to the next battle and left the aftermath to the hacks and chiselers who swoop into the void.

    So my long-winded point is that Obama and the Democrats really want to “win” this argument by getting their tax increases and further stimulus dollars while pretending to apply spending restraints, but deep down they probably know that after the bill is signed and media attention moves elsewhere that there won’t be any need to keep their fiscal promises. They will just point the finger to the ongoing problems in Europe as a catch-all excuse for why the economy never improves, along with the continued insistence that Bush ruined everything beyond their ability to repair it.

    JVW (4826a9)

  47. I agree with what people are saying above (re: “let it go over the cliff”) but for different reasons:

    I want a new political system. Going over the cliff will make it perfectly clear to people that two-party collusion and complicity totally f*cked us.

    And then they’ll want more parties, and we’ll get a system that allows for them.

    Leviticus (1aca67)

  48. 3. ‘Fiscal Cliff’ is pure Bernanke, a total falsehood.

    There are something like 3000 officers of General grade in the Armed Forces. Couldn’t we make do with a hundred odd?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  49. 48. “I want a new political system.”

    You and 2/3 of the country. Unfortunately, a lot of them are Bolsheviks.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  50. “I’m bolshevisky.”

    - Tom Joad

    Leviticus (1aca67)

  51. Pardon me:

    “Damn right, I’m bolshevisky!”

    - Tom Joad

    Leviticus (1aca67)

  52. ==Going over the cliff will make it perfectly clear to people that two-party collusion and complicity totally f*cked us==

    Suuuure. That will make it perfectly clear to people how bad the existing political system is and that the way to fix it is with a whole new party and voting system. Now, maybe if they fit it into a recurring story line on Keeping up with the Kardashians, or headline it on TMZ it will get people’s attention—-nah, on second thought prolly not.

    elissa (554a0c)

  53. “etey – Why did the people of America reelect a Republican House of Representatives, moron?”

    Moron needs “redistricting” explained to him I see.

    And the difference between “America” and the pockets of Anti-American morons who sent the ugly Rethugs up there to screw them.

    P. Tillman (554a0c) (fcbc8b)

  54. PT is the perfect Democrat – all lies all the time.

    SPQR (33446a)

  55. 54. What will concentrate thinking is most of the country will slide down the Kali slope, e.g., San Bernadino this week.

    Cut police, firemen, and judges, we can’t afford them.

    In my neck of the woods a couple teenagers breaking into a neighbor’s home, former security engineer for the Feds, for like the eighth time were executed.

    He’s charged with murder but unless they reduce the charge it’ll probably hang the jury.

    Community down on its luck, just like all over.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  56. Well, here it is. Leviticus wants many many smaller diverse political parties so as to more fairly represent multiple interests –and Tillman wants only ONE dictatorial political party to exist without regard to any minority policy positions. Seems like that’s going to be a tough nut to crack. :)

    elissa (554a0c)

  57. Trouble is, Leviticus, the usual result will be a strong man, smiley-face US style.

    Patricia (be0117)

  58. Let the mutha burn.

    Space Cockroach (8096f2)

  59. 55. No, coprolite, America voted for divided government and the status quo.

    They deserve a tax raise.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  60. All this whining like a stuck pig because people who have made out so well (better, in fact, under Obama than Bush) are being asked to pay a little more into the system that helped get them to where they are.

    Whaaaa! Little babies. Confused angry rubes who’ve allowed their ignorance and prejudice become the strings with which to be manipulated like brainless puppets.

    P. Tillman (554a0c) (fcbc8b)

  61. “and Tillman wants only ONE dictatorial political party to exist without regard to any minority policy positions. ”

    You clearly have no idea what I want so time to shut your little pie hole.

    You don’t even know what Obama wants or what he’s actually done few crissakes.

    P. Tillman (554a0c) (fcbc8b)

  62. PT continues to lie, while Democrats echo PT’s juvenile behavior by refusing to meet their most basic obligation – passing a budget.

    And Turbo Tax Geitner farts in public like a schoolboy

    SPQR (33446a)

  63. PT, Obama has done nothing. He is an empty suit.

    Obama’s budget proposal are laughed away by his own party.

    SPQR (33446a)

  64. “You don’t even know what Obama wants”

    Petey – Tell us his plan. Tell us your plan, since Obama didn’t run on a plan.

    Why did anybody with a brain vote for him?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  65. 62. Sorry for the clueby4, chucklehead, but there won’t be a deal ’cause GayProstitute doesn’t want one.

    “Bush tax cuts” will die forever only to have Belial’s Avatar ride in on the Winds of Heaven to fight for the middle class at some future date, maybe, but prolly not.

    The result is tax raises are on the Thugs.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  66. You clearly have no idea what I want so time to shut your little pie hole.

    Oooh, another stalinist pig troll to play with! Christmas must have come early this year. Haven’t had the immense pleasure of watching the Patterico team kick hateful stalinist ass for quite some time.

    So how’s the DNC paying you for your latest pathetic comments here, piggy? Thunderbird, pot or meth?

    qdpsteve (e4fc78)

  67. Where progressives fail, however, is that they have a lousy track record of actually implementing their grand schemes.

    Au contraire — they have no intention of their “solutions” actually solving anything. Their goal is to accrue as much power to themselves as possible. To that end they are incredibly successful.

    Rob Crawford (e6f27f)

  68. Confused angry rubes who’ve allowed their ignorance and prejudice become the strings with which to be manipulated like brainless puppets.

    Yes, yes, enough about the Democrats…

    Rob Crawford (e6f27f)

  69. Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/30/2012 @ 11:42 am

    Why did anybody with a brain vote for him?

    Prejudice. Against Republicans.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  70. 66. “Why did anybody with a brain vote for him?”

    Gray matter been involuntarily sequestered.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  71. There are something like 3000 officers of General grade in the Armed Forces. Couldn’t we make do with a hundred odd?

    Maybe, but only after we have reduced the number of House, Senate, White House, and federal bureaucracy staffers by an equivalent proportion.

    JVW (4826a9)

  72. How much deficit reduction will be achieved by your hatred of successful people, illman? If you took ALL the evil one percenters money, how much would the deficit be?

    JD (518ff4)

  73. ==You clearly have no idea what I want so time to shut your little pie hole==

    Ha! Shows what you know. I’m not really much into carbs at all.

    elissa (554a0c)

  74. Watch how the MFM talks of taxes over a ten year period, and compares that to 1 year’s deficit.

    JD (518ff4)

  75. elissa:

    You’d think that 59 million of us would count for something in the equation and in fiscal cliff “proposals”, wouldn’t you? But obviously to President Obama we don’t count. That points to an ugly truth almost too painful to contemplate.

    I agree with this and basically everything you’ve said today, elissa. Unfortunately, I think it means that P. Tillmans are the deciding votes in American elections for now and possibly for the next 10 years, depending on how energized or discouraged they become.

    Adults voted for Romney in this election. It was the young voters — i.e., the pop culture-sensitive, low-information, and emotional voters — who gave the election to Obama. The fact that Obama knows they are low-information, emotional voters is probably why he is willing to cut Pell grant funding to the very people who voted for him and depend on grants like this. Obama knows they won’t hold it against him but will reliably blame the bad guys — the Republicans.

    My years as a parent tell me that the only things that will fix this is time for them to grow up and to experience real world consequences. And the sooner, the better.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  76. Leviticus,

    Assume I agree the American political parties are beyond redemption. What makes you so sure we will replace two bad parties with one (or two or ten) good ones?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  77. “Petey – Tell us his plan. Tell us your plan, since Obama didn’t run on a plan.”

    OMG, can you be that seriously ignorant? YOU don’t even know what it is, and you’re railing against it like its the most evil and destructive policy ever proposed!

    “The White House on Thursday sent Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner to deliver a proposal to avoid the so-called fiscal cliff by increasing taxes by $1.6 trillion over the next decade, including $50 billion in stimulus spending for mostly infrastructure and $400 billion in savings in popular entitlement programs such as Medicare.”

    Obama won on 1) increasing taxes on wealthy Americans who have done very very well under his administration, and 2) preserving entitlement spending (medicare/medicaid/ss).

    Not only do most people agree with these issues, but you may also have noticed that HE WAS RE-ELECTED!

    BWAHAHAHA.

    P. Tillman (554a0c) (fcbc8b)

  78. “My years as a parent tell me that the only things that will fix this is time for them to grow up and to experience real world consequences. And the sooner, the better.”

    I am amazed that you Wingnuts cannot see how sociopathic this view is.

    Your confusion about the world dooms you to the dustbin of history…you are the Party of Dodo’s.

    Good riddance.

    P. Tillman (554a0c) (fcbc8b)

  79. The Fiscal Cliff!

    To paraphrase Flip Wilson:

    Let it fall, rev!

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  80. Good riddance.

    Bye! Don’t let the door hit you on the way out!

    Rob Crawford (e6f27f)

  81. “Bye! Don’t let the door hit you on the way out!”

    Oh don’t worry, I’m not going anywhere.

    I’m bidding (a non-fond) farewell to the likes of you intellectual dinosaurs.

    P. Tillman (554a0c) (fcbc8b)

  82. “I’m bidding (a non-fond) farewell to the likes of you intellectual dinosaurs.”

    Petey – How can we miss you if you’re not gone?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  83. “Obama won on 1) increasing taxes on wealthy Americans who have done very very well under his administration, and 2) preserving entitlement spending (medicare/medicaid/ss).”

    Petey – When do you predict the next ratings downgrade?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  84. “A 14-year-old Afghan girl was beheaded and killed in an attack by two men, one of whom apparently asked her to marry him.”

    Looks like your ideological comrades are at it again.

    P. Tillman (554a0c) (fcbc8b)

  85. ==you are the Party of Dodo’s.
    Good riddance.==

    Be careful what you wish for, Tillman. With respect to that intended insult, here is what Jerry Bergman, noted professor of biology, chemistry and biochemistry had to say about the extinct Dodo bird:

    “The Dodo’s extinction does not demonstrate the efficacy of natural selection as some claim, but rather the wanton disregard of life by humans. Now regarded by contemporary researchers as a wonderful, magnificent creature, its loss is a tragic event in history.”

    elissa (554a0c)

  86. “Petey – When do you predict the next ratings downgrade?”

    Last one happened as a result of Rethug debt ceiling tomfoolery, so…

    All other Wingnut economic predictions have not come to pass either, btw.

    Where’s all that terrible inflation we’re supposed to be having?

    Noticed how the stock/bond markets are doing these days?

    P. Tillman (554a0c) (fcbc8b)

  87. CAUTION:

    It is never wise to attempt to match wits with someone who has none.

    If Pillman was a half-wit, we could always tie one arm behind our backs; but sadly, that is not the case.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  88. I rest my case.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  89. “Now regarded by contemporary researchers as a wonderful, magnificent creature, its loss is a tragic event in history.”

    Yep, agreed, totally misplaced comparison to Wingnuts.

    Extinctions don’t always provoke nostalgia of course.

    P. Tillman (554a0c) (fcbc8b)

  90. Stock Market?
    The market is up only because there is no current investment safety in real estate, and the bond market is a shambles.
    That only leaves stocks, and the DJIA has been wallowing on either side of 13K for weeks, not knowing what to do.
    The latest numbers on Q3 Consumer Spending are atrocious, leading many to believe that we are already about two-months into a new recession.
    To those who are still unemployed from the ’07-’09 recession, they wonder if there was ever any recovery at all.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  91. “It is never wise to attempt to match wits with someone who has none.”

    My guiding principle when I lower myself into this cesspool.

    P. Tillman (554a0c) (b8ab92) (fcbc8b)

  92. Wingnuts.
    A valued fastener for having to quickly, and easily, undo and refasten items, without tools.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  93. Ooh, it responds….that must have left a mark.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  94. “To those who are still unemployed from the ’07-’09 recession, they wonder if there was ever any recovery at all.”

    And yet Republicans stubbornly refuse to allow any further stimulus plans to be passed.

    At least America is beginning to see through this and put the blame where it belongs: Wingnuttia.

    P. Tillman (554a0c) (b8ab92) (fcbc8b)

  95. If only. If only further stimulus plans did not require additional money we don’t have. And if only the earlier porkulous had actually been successful by being properly targeted and prudently allocated and done with adequate oversight. Damn shame.

    elissa (554a0c)

  96. P. Tillman,

    Why so angry? After all, your guy won. He seems pretty happy. Maybe you should just chill.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  97. Some day PDilly will go away and no one will ever miss him.

    And I don’t just mean on this blog.

    Pious Agnostic (20c167)

  98. There would be no need for further stimulas plans if the greatest bag of stimulus ever thrown at an ailing economy wasn’t a complete failure.
    But, only in Leftdom, does failure begat more failure, as it is always the “wrong” people leading things….
    Oops, the Stimulus was crafted and implemented by the Best and the Brightest of the Democrat Progressive Party.

    #EpicFail

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  99. Comment by elissa (554a0c) — 11/30/2012 @ 1:55 pm

    Couldn’t have said it any better myself….except, I think I did.
    But, not with such courtesy and eloquence – attributes wasted on its target.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  100. Why so much hate, and hoping for violence, illman?

    JD (518ff4)

  101. Nothing will help the economy more than $1,600,000,000,000 in new taxes.

    JD (518ff4)

  102. Particularly since only The Rich will have to pay up.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  103. The GOP has not blocked any stimulus as Democrats have proposed none. They have blocked pork barrel dishonestly labeled stimulus.

    Recovery was killed by Democrat policies.

    Meanwhile Geitner’s “proposal” was some fake Medicare cuts as much fantasy as Obamacare’s doublecounted Medicare “saviings” that never happened and 1.6 trillion in new taxes over ten yrs that mean not one tenth of Obama’s outrageous deficits are reduced.

    That the kind of lying PT does.

    SPQR (7fae65)

  104. 79. You neglected mention of POTUS control of the debt ceiling as well as noting the sketchiness of Medicare cuts, already cut $500 Billion by Obamaneycare.

    So what we were waiting for was how money laundering another $50 Billion thru SEIU & GreenShooters hands is good for the USA?

    How much of that #1.6 Trillion over ten years do you actually figure we’ll collect?

    Why should anyone care what the Manchurian Bastard son of a Marxist poet proposes?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  105. I’m going to try to understand P. Tillman’s point of view. I think he believes we should spend more money (especially more rich people’s money) to help others, and it’s enough to hope it will work. It’s about helping and hoping, not arguing and worrying. The worse things get, the more we need to do something now!

    We also need to trust President Obama because he’s smarter than other Americans, and he cares more about us all.

    Is this correct, P. Tillman?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  106. I hereby demand that Republicans in Congress spend an hour reviewing the insights provided by Charles Schultz noted political analyst and cartoonist.

    They should concentrate VERY HARD on the complex drawings of Charlie Brown running up to kick the football and Lucy pulling it away – again – for the 13 millionth time. Guys, stop believing Lucy.

    in_awe (7c859a)

  107. If I were a good Catholic I’d be nominating DRJ for sainthood. Alas, I’m very poor Protestant.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  108. Obama’s proposal does not meet the obligations that Democrats agreed to during the debt ceiling negotiations over a year ago.

    Another deal broken by Democrats. That’s the bottom line.

    SPQR (768505)

  109. DRJ, in all seriousness, PT has no point of view other than a burning hatred for Republicans. He’s expressed no coherent point of view at all – and all the claims he makes to support his views are completely ridiculous lies about past history.

    SPQR (768505)

  110. ==If I were a good Catholic I’d be nominating DRJ for sainthood.==

    She’s showing class. Unfortunately, I’ve allowed both the election hatefulness and some very ugly on-line people like Tillman to dampen my holiday spirit of giving. When I donated food to the local pantry just before Thanksgiving which always before I have done with joy and love in my heart– along with gratitude that I can give– it was different this year. I found myself praying that the goods would be appreciated and that they would go to good and decent and honorable families who are temporarily down on their luck. Not to nasty and vicious and “entitled” folk like Tillman who apparently hate my guts simply because of my politics.

    I can’t say I’m proud of this, but I won’t deny those feelings either.

    elissa (554a0c)

  111. Those who forget (or never learned about) the past, are doomed to relive it.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  112. 113. I’ve cut Tilly some slack, at least once, but it was an uncharacteristic moment.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  113. DRJ – taxing the crap out of those evil people who make more than 200k will fix everything.

    JD (518ff4)

  114. Sunsetting Bush Tax Cuts:

    http://www.smartmoney.com/taxes/income/how-the-expiring-bush-tax-cuts-affect-you/

    A number of Obots will not be happy.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  115. Why should we be the only ones discomfited?

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  116. We also need to trust President Obama because he’s smarter than other Americans, and he cares more about us all.

    Thank Gaia he’s so much smarter then the rest of us. I could see things going really badly for us in the ME if that weren’t the case.

    Why, US diplomatic facilities might be sacked, diplomats killed, and the salafists might get their hands on all sorts of nasty weaponry as they implement regime change as they advance toward their goal of establishing the caliphate.

    Steve57 (7a880e)

  117. I’m no saint. Insults get old, so I want P. Tillman to help us understand how he thinks.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  118. Steve, that could never happen in the Perfect World of Hope & Change.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  119. 121. Steve, that could never happen in the Perfect World of Hope & Change.

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 11/30/2012 @ 3:47 pm

    Oh, I’ve noticed. It’s reassuring how the administration’s “smart diplomacy” has dissuaded the Palestinians from attempting to alter the status of the West Bank and Gaza outside of the two-party negotiations with Israel. Nope. The Palestinians have been intimidated by this administration; they’d never think of trying to do an end run around the commitments they agreed to in Oslo and the Wye River accords and attempt to get recognition as a state by, I dunno, the UN.

    Ain’t. Gonna. Happen.

    Not as long as the ObaMessiah and Sheriff Joe are on watch.

    Steve57 (7a880e)

  120. P-Dilly’s off the clock.

    Pious Agnostic (20c167)

  121. Let it burn is right.

    Respond with: Eliminate the Departments of Commerce, Labor, HUD, Education, Energy and Homeland Security. Take the few needed bits (e.g. Patent Office, Border Patrol) and roll them into a Department of Useful Things. Downsize Agriculture, Transportation and Health&Welfare. Drop several independent agencies, kill the new and wildly unconstitutional consumer financial products agency. Strangle Obamacare in the crib.

    Then you can raise taxes.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  122. “Jump into the Fire”
    Harry Nilsson

    mg (31009b)

  123. And, actually, they should “leak” that if Boehner can’t get a deal the Republicans can support, they’ll wait until the debt ceiling comes up, and give their response then.

    And who knows who will be speaker then. Michelle Bachmann, maybe.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  124. both of whom were re-elected despite horrible economic conditions and by voters who know the Democrats favor tax hikes and profligate spending.

    The vote for the Democrats was a repudiation of the Republican social conservative agenda, not a love for Obama’s economic stewardship.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  125. BTW, if they give Obama his Imperial Power over the Debt, there will be a party split before too long.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  126. 120. I’m no saint. Insults get old, so I want P. Tillman to help us understand how he thinks.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 11/30/2012 @ 3:47 pm

    Well, Tillary!’s lies get old. Such as:

    Last one happened as a result of Rethug debt ceiling tomfoolery, so…

    No credit rating agency has downgraded the country’s rating because of “debt ceiling tomfoolery.” Quite the opposite. It’s the fact that the Dims keep insisting on raising the debt ceiling that convinces the credit rating agencies that the government is fundamentally unserious about tackling the massive deficit.

    Founded in 1995, Philadelphia-based Egan-Jones is a Nationally Recognized Statistical Rating Organization, accredited by the Securities and Exchange Commission since 2007. NRSRO status means that the SEC considers an agency “‘nationally recognized’ in the United States as an issuer of credible and reliable ratings by the predominant users of securities ratings” (in the words of guidelines proposed in March 2005, since superseded). Other NRSROs include the better-known Moody’s (MCO), Standard & Poor’s and Fitch Ratings.

    Egan-Jones was the first NRSRO to downgrade the United States, dropping the country’s sovereign debt from AAA to AA+ on July 16, 2011. “The major factor driving credit quality is the relatively high level of debt and the difficulty in significantly cutting spending,” the firm said at the time.

    S&P soon followed Egan-Jones’s lead, cutting its U.S. credit rating from AAA to AA+ on August 5, 2011; Moody’s and Fitch changed their outlooks to negative in June and November, respectively, though both kept their ratings at triple-A.

    Of course, S&P never ever claimed it was downgrading the US’ credit rating because of of GOP unwillingness to borrow and spend more. That’s distilled stupidity. But PropagandaFact or some such libtard “fact check” outfit (by “fact check” I obviuosly mean “comports with libtard ideology) that’s in the business of telling idiot leftists what to think claimed that’s what S&P was doing.

    It was never true.

    S&P wasn’t as clear as Egan-Jones, but they never said they were perturbed by the GOP’s unwillingness to raise the debt limit. You can read their statement here.

    - The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government’s medium-term debt dynamics.

    - More broadly, the downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges to a degree more than we envisioned when we assigned a negative outlook to the rating on April 18, 2011.

    - Since then, we have changed our view of the difficulties in bridging the gulf between the political parties over fiscal policy, which makes us pessimistic about the capacity of Congress and the Administration to be able to leverage their agreement this week into a broader fiscal consolidation plan that stabilizes the government’s debt dynamics any time soon.

    It’s the massive debt, not limits on borrowing, the credit rating agencies are focused on. PropagandaFact counts on the idea that it’s crazed minions will not actually go to the original source but will instead blindly follow along with their mischaracterization of reality.

    In Tillary!’s case their bet is well-founded. But, DRJ, that means it’s not important to figure out what Tillary! thinks. It’s an established fact that he doesn’t.

    I apologize to you, DRJ, if you find anything I’ve written to be an “insult.” But I’ve got to call them like I see them, and my conclusions may be insulting but they’re based upon the facts of the matter. Sometimes the truth is insulting. I don’t see why I should shy away from the truth when reality demonstrates its contempt for someone’s cherished myths.

    Steve57 (7a880e)

  127. bachmann you a song you make me wanna roll my winders down and cruise

    she’s so feisty!

    happyfeet (59b1dd)

  128. Steve57,

    You don’t need to apologize to me. I’m not trying to stop any conversations.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  129. I explained to my daughter the truth behind the legend of Robin Hood. I think she got it.

    nk (875f57)

  130. Bachman as speaker would do everything possible to make obama fail. Sad that boehner has less of a pair than Bachman.

    mg (31009b)

  131. Then you can raise taxes.

    The only thing we can count on is, as long as this administration exists, the tax rate increases.

    The cuts and frankly the revenue won’t appear. Obama acknowledged as such as a candidate when he admitted he wanted tax hikes even if they resulted in lower tax revenues.

    It’s becoming increasingly obvious that the Obama administration has to know what it’s doing. They talk about “investment.” When they mean government spending on some rent-seeking shell company that no sane investor would give any money to (hence the government stepping in). Plus they turn US bankruptcy law on it’s head by putting secured creditors at the back of the line behind cronies.

    Who are the “terrorists” in the Obama administration’s view? Not Hamas or AQ; they’re “extremists” at best. No, the “terrorists” are the people who loaned Chyrsler money when the company was in extremis expecting that the people who agreed to the deal would meet the terms.

    Now we’re going to jack up the taxes on the returns from investment. Anyone want to guess what that’s going to result in less of?

    The fact of the matter is that the crew the Obama administration has assembled doesn’t trust anything outside of it’s centrally directed authority. Not the Catholic Church. Not private investors. And we see it eliminating the competition before our eyes.

    Steve57 (7a880e)

  132. 131. Steve57,

    You don’t need to apologize to me. I’m not trying to stop any conversations.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 11/30/2012 @ 4:41 pm

    I’m just trying to get credit for the fact that while my comments may be insulting at times they aren’t gratuitously so.

    If I’m going to insult someone, I at least try and substantiate it. Which, to my mind at least, means it’s not really an insult. It’s a supportable contention, which if it’s effect is insulting, oh well.

    Steve57 (7a880e)

  133. Although I do have to admit my proclivity to make up nicknames for people like Tillary! who I have zero respect for probably does descend into insult.

    But that was never the substance of my disagreement with him. Just the result.

    Steve57 (7a880e)

  134. Steve57,

    I wasn’t thinking of your comments or any particular person’s comments when I mentioned insults.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  135. I’d just like to understand P. Tillman if he’s going to spend so much time here.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  136. 137. Steve57,

    I wasn’t thinking of your comments or any particular person’s comments when I mentioned insults.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 11/30/2012 @ 5:25 pm

    I second gary’s nomination. You’ve got my vote for saint.

    Steve57 (7a880e)

  137. 138. I’d just like to understand P. Tillman if he’s going to spend so much time here.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 11/30/2012 @ 5:26 pm

    What if people like SPQR do understand him?

    Steve57 (7a880e)

  138. Is sleepy, tillman’s lover?

    mg (31009b)

  139. I guess I’m the kind that has to learn the hard way, Steve57.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  140. DRJ, you are a gentle soul. Unfortunately I was raised by Marine DIs and Navy and Coast Guard Chiefs. My Catholic Priest was a former Army Chaplain who herded a dozen or so NORKs into captivity at the end of a .45.

    What hope has there ever been for me?

    Steve57 (7a880e)

  141. I’m not that gentle, Steve57, but I am patient. P. Tillman hasn’t returned yet but I’ll be waiting.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  142. DRJ, someone mentioned yesterday that Tillman always seems to disappear at around 5:00PM Eastern. True to form, he has gone away. For now…

    Gazzer (bb91dc)

  143. That’s when moveon.org stops paying it. Ignore it.

    nk (875f57)

  144. When does he usually drop by? I’ll make sure I’m here.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  145. Has anybody seen the Chimperor around since the election, BTW?

    nk (875f57)

  146. I have — several times, I think.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  147. I guess the test will be whether it shows up on the weekend. Although, some folks do work on Saturdays, I spose.

    Gazzer (bb91dc)

  148. DRJ @144, you’re more patient than I would be.

    Steve57 (7a880e)

  149. “Assume I agree the American political parties are beyond redemption. What makes you so sure we will replace two bad parties with one (or two or ten) good ones?”

    - DRJ

    Nothing makes me sure. But at least then I’ll know that we’re getting what we deserve rather than something we can’t control.

    Leviticus (17b7a5)

  150. Eventually we would have a party that promised to give every single American, save one, infinite benefits, which would be paid for entirely by taxing the one richest American (and quantitative easing).

    PR is like like political darwinism.

    Dustin (73fead)

  151. Would you want to be in that party? Cuz you wouldn’t have to be in it. You could be in a different party.

    Leviticus (17b7a5)

  152. What’s interesting to me re Tillman is not only how angry he is even though Obama won the election, but that he is angry that although we certainly acknowledge Obama’s win, we don’t buy into his platform and policies.

    Why does he care what a group of ‘losers’ think and feel about this? Is he that unconfident in his own beliefs and support of Obama that he feels threatened? Or is he typical of progs – those most narrow-minded toads of all -that he cannot control our thoughts and/or freedom to dissent?

    His unhappiness is overwhelming and puzzling.

    Dana (292dcf)

  153. Good point, Dana. He does seem threatened.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  154. And unhappy.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  155. Dana, et al:

    You guys are assuming that Tillman is driven by some sort of noble gesture or noble ignorance.

    It’s neither. He’s driven by good old capitalism. He clocks in, reviews the current talking points, posts at his assignment, clocks out and says see tomorrow, Ralph.

    He is part of a machine. He’s a happy cog, hoping for a “good job” back slap from his boss while dreaming of a dacha while the proles toil to supply the power.

    It has nothing to do with who won or who lost. It is his life.

    He is simply a tool, doing what tools do without ever realizing he is a tool.

    sleeepy is biding its time until Tillman screws up and it can become the next important tool.

    It’s fairly easy to ignore them when their mission is so obvious.

    Ag80 (b2c81f)

  156. I don’t know, Ag80, but let’s assume that’s true. It doesn’t seem that people are ignoring him.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  157. My 2 cents-
    Agree with SPQR and patricia, the goal is to out-communicate and illustrations and graphs will do nicely.

    People need to remember what Obama has said when he means it, like “spreading the wealth around” and increasing tax rates even if it means lower revenue because that is “more fair”.

    It should be clear by now that he has no interest in anything that would resemble financial sanity. The masses understand “higher taxes on the rich”, to our chagrin he wins with his “Obamaphone” give-aways and appeal to short-sighted self-interest.

    It’s a waste of time trying to negotiate in any traditional understanding. I suggest the repubs offer to continue Bush tax rates on all but the highest bracket for 1 year, nothing else included.

    Make a big deal with an announcement that includes showing the graph of just what this accomplishes, and show a copy of the budget that was suggested by the president and approved by the dem senate (yes, hold up a blank sheet of paper).

    I don’t think one can poison the working relationship with Obama anymore than he has already poisoned it, so consider playing it up as if the repubs are “going along with the president on his proposals” and then at the announcement return the favor of being “in your face” as he has done to netanyahu, the Supreme Court, paul ryan, and the repubs in general (but do it with a pleasant tone in your voice so only those paying attention understand what just happened).

    He is succeeding in his fundamental transformation of America in front of our eyes as if we are watching a train wreck in slow motion, seeing it happen but powerless to do anything about it.
    http://www.blackfive.net/main/2012/11/how-liberty-dies.html

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  158. As far as a better governmental system, there is none, but it takes men and women of character to be in charge and a virtuous public to put them there. It doesn’t matter if there is one party, two parties, or two dozen.

    Short of another Great Awakening, not sure what will happen. The problem with train wrecks is that the train has so much momentum that by the time you are upon it, it is too late.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  159. At some point, Ag, he made a choice to become that cog. It didn’t happen in a vacuum. That’s what makes me curious about the left. They are a bitter, unhappy lot – even when they get everything they want. Which, come to think of it, reminds me of spoiled children…

    Dana (292dcf)

  160. MD,

    Your mentioning the Great Awakening reminded me that someone asked me whether I would rather see a strong conservative get into office or see another Great Awakening and revival in our country.

    Dana (292dcf)

  161. The left starts with the sentiment of wanting things to be fair and nice and everyone getting along, which is a nice sentiment. The problem is that it was that way in the Garden and we made a choice that had the consequence of getting kicked out. The left especially of the Woodstock generation wants to “get back to the Garden”, but you can’t get there from here. So, no matter how hard one tries to fix the world it refuses to get fixed, and that is the frustration of the left. Typically the short term response is to find someone to blame for utopia not coming along on schedule.
    When one understands that you cannot impose a fix on a broken world you either give up or refocus on what you can do, which is love your neighbor by God’s grace.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  162. Dana,
    As Mark and others have pointed out, the big problem is not so much Obama but that there are so many people that were eager to put him into office.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  163. The very definition of “fair” mucks up the waters from the get-go.

    Dana (292dcf)

  164. His unhappiness is overwhelming and puzzling.

    I don’t know about that person in question, but I was speaking with another very leftwing person a few months ago. Although just about every policy, politician and idea he favors is stereotypically liberal, he also mentioned to me that the word “liberal” has negative connotations.

    The cognitive dissonance of such people is very peculiar. The two-faced nature of so many of them (ie, where they act and live like “limousine liberals” or “latte liberals,” regardless of their income level) is a major reason why I think left-leaning biases are rooted in mainly immature and bratty emotions.

    I wonder how old Tillman is? When I try to envision a poster like him as being rather young, he doesn’t seem quite so foolish. IOW, leftism in a youth isn’t as pathetic as leftism in an adult, or certainly someone who’s well past his or her, say, 40th birthday.

    Mark (56b304)

  165. You’d be surprised, Mark, Leo the juvenile, is a 60 plus year old College professor, as is another I know,

    narciso (ee31f1)

  166. Good points by all. It is getting paid by someone to post here or it only has access during library hours.

    Either is pathetic and it does deserve compassion, but it does not deserve attention.

    Seriously, it calls itself P. Tillman. Its whole point is to rile. It has no argument, except shut up.

    I regret my responses to it previously, but a target-rich environment does invite shots.

    I have no idea, MD, why a sentient being would post as it does unless money or significant mental issues were involved.

    We live in a free nation, though. Sometimes sad people need some sort of outlet. I suppose we should be charitable and endure it’s inanities.

    Ag80 (b2c81f)

  167. The problem with train wrecks is that the train has so much momentum that by the time you are upon it, it is too late.

    Doc, the problem with this particular train wreck is that the people driving the train are denying they’re wrecking it. Whilst simultaneaously declaring the train they’re driving into the wall was wrecked four years ago by George Bush. So full speed ahead.

    Steve57 (7a880e)

  168. They may be denying they are wrecking it, but they are not in denial. They want a fundamental transformation which is best accomplished when the original “form” is wiped out so the new “form” can take shape. Blaming “Bush policies” is just a charade, a cover, a way of accomplishing what they want.

    maybe we need to do a remake of Locomotive Breath to fit the situation.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  169. “maybe we need to do a remake of Locomotive Breath to fit the situation.”

    Let’s leave well enough alone!

    Dana (292dcf)

  170. If we are still voting I say… Light ‘er up.

    Angelo (803ca1)

  171. …a 60 plus year old College professor, as is another I know

    …so many people that were eager to put him into office.

    …why a sentient being would post as it does unless money or significant mental issues were involved.

    I’m not being flippant when I truly wonder why people are wedded to left-leaning biases. Is it nature or nurture? Whatever the case, such biases are what I think ultimately feed not just the poster here who some suspect has an auto-timer type of daily schedule, but so many of his like-minded humans in general, Obama included.

    I recall years ago being somewhat oblivious to just how corrupt and destructive (and self-destructive too) liberal sentiments could be. I was always suspicious of that aspect of people, but I didn’t realize how screwed up their left-leaning biases really were. I generally took their impulses and reactions at face value. IOW, I assumed that left-leaning brains at least gave a person various qualities that weren’t so phony and ass-backwards.

    I feel like I’ve gone through quite an epiphany over the past many years, over the past few decades.

    Mark (56b304)

  172. Given the fact this nation has existed for a couple of hundred years, it’d probably be hard for someone to pick a date that didn’t fall on the anniversary of something.

    Still, I think it’s somewhat significant to that it’s the anniversary of Tassaforonga.

    Ace has a post up about it.

    http://minx.cc/?post=335363

    November 30, 1942: The Battle of Tassafaronga

    The results were horrific. Of the five cruisers that engaged, Northampton was lost. New Orleans, Pensacola and Minneapolis were heavily damaged. New Orleans, was hit in a forward magazine which completely destroyed her bow before the second gun turret. The Japanese lost one destroyer. It was a strategic victory for the Americans, the Japanese could not resupply. And yet one of the worst defeats for the Navy, leaving them only with four operational heavy cruisers and nine light cruisers in the Pacific.

    On a personal note, my dad was a 17 year old sailor in WWII. I can’t look at a picture of the New Orleans with its bow along with its number one turret completely gone and not think of the human consequences. Hundreds of men, extinguished.

    On a professional note, I can’t help but observe that the Japanese were so much more skilled at night fighting because practicing for such cost money. It wasn’t just that their Long Lance torpedoes were so much better, they drilled to use them.

    Something 1930s America thought they couldn’t afford.

    But, and now we come to the issue, who is going to crew those ships? Someone who thinks P. Tillman’s name is the punchline for a joke?

    Steve57 (7a880e)

  173. Bye the bye, Russel Crenshaw who took part in the action at Tassaforonga in Maury?

    http://destroyerhistory.org/actions/index.asp?r=4280&pid=4290

    He wrote the book. To use the term correctly, unlike our VP, “literally.”

    http://www.amazon.com/Shiphandling-Edition-Russell-Sydnor-Crenshaw/dp/0870214748

    Steve57 (7a880e)

  174. Crenshaw’s textbook on shiphandling may be an acquired taste.

    His book on the naval war in the South Pacific may be of more general interest.

    http://www.paperbackswap.com/South-Pacific-Destroyer-Russell-Sydnor-Crenshaw-Jr-/book/1591141435/

    South Pacific Destroyer: The Battle for the Solomons from Savo Island to Vella Gulf

    Steve57 (7a880e)

  175. I left an “L.” I shouldn’t have done that.

    Steve57 (7a880e)

  176. Leading from behind:

    Asia Times – Post-US world born in Phnom Penh

    It is symptomatic of the national condition of the United States that the worst humiliation ever suffered by it as a nation, and by a US president personally, passed almost without comment last week. I refer to the November 20 announcement at a summit meeting in Phnom Penh that 15 Asian nations, comprising half the world’s population, would form a Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership excluding the United States.

    US diplomacy under Obama.

    1. Make it clear that countries are better off going their own way.

    2. Lie to the US public about other countries going their own way.

    3. When the lies stop working, claim it’s not important that other countries are increasingly steering clear of us. Because shut up. He’s Obama.

    Ignoring this **** until you’re forced to pretend it doesn’t matter doesn’t make it better.

    Steve57 (1922f2)

  177. Let’s look over again just how deep of a hole we’re really in, because that underscores just how insulting Obama’s proposal is and how deluded goons like Petey and timb are to be pumping this.

    Since 1948, the average revenue to GDP has been about 17%, according to the OMB. We’ve only crossed the 19% threshold 11 times in that span, and never more than 20.6%, which was at the top of a massive, unsustainable credit bubble from dotbomb that allowed for the temporary employment of the highest labor participation rate in modern US history.

    Based on our current $15 trillion GDP, hitting 17% brings in $2.55 trillion. Hitting 19% brings in $2.85 trillion.

    We’re currently spending $3.6 trillion. This means that even if we hit the rare 19% mark, we’d still be $750 billion in the hole. In order to balance the budget, we’d have to grow our economy, ex-government spending, by $4-6.5 trillion right now.

    The irony is that when you add up our GDP growth since FY 2001, and count our deficit spending in that time period, it shows that every single penny of GDP growth has been the result of deficit spending, not capital formation.

    Another Chris (826b29)

  178. “since FY 2001,..every single penny of GDP growth has been the result of deficit spending,”

    Good show of our homework.

    Since 2008, Federal spending, at 40 cents on the dollar in economic return, has been gratis Federal Reserve money creation equal to 10% of GDP.

    With QE3(purchase of Treasuries and MBS) the only arrow left in the quiver is Federal Reserve direct purchase of equities a la BOJ.

    I hope Boehner passes on the fiscal cliff and puts up some semblance of resistance over the Debt Ceiling for once.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  179. The salient point to be made on the ‘Fiscal Cliff/Debt Ceiling’ watershed is the GOP is snookered.

    If they as with CR2011, CR2012 and the last Debt Ceiling/Sequester fiascos, seek to limit the damage to their 2014 hopes they really do risk it all.

    Coming up with a worse deal than losing the Bush Tax Cuts and any present day spending cuts will blow their raison de etre.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  180. I like this Simpson-Bowles suggestion by Guy Benson, although I still think we’ll end up going over the fiscal cliff because it’s what Obama wants. If we’ve learned one thing about Obama, it’s that he won’t stop until he gets what he wants.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  181. Note that my last link is to a Kathleen Parker column that is admittedly fiction, but I think it’s fiction based on fact.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  182. Say, anyone up for some TEA?

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  183. He is succeeding in his fundamental transformation of America in front of our eyes as if we are watching a train wreck in slow motion, seeing it happen but powerless to do anything about it.

    I used to think Obama and Wife were just fools; now I see they are playing the long game (as Michelle herself has said). Barack doesn’t care about the budget or jobs or US prestige abroad–he cares about the long term transformation of this country. And he is succeeding.

    I believe this because it explains some inexplicable actions, like no budget in four years, no jobs pivot, no deficit reduction–nothing but transformation of capitalism and the permanent bureaucracy–and things like emails from our diversity officer telling us to take a “voluntary” survey on our racial makeup demanded by the feds. Everything is political, designed to build a dependent majority and destroy any aspect of culture that disagrees with his ideology.

    He, and she, are not fools at all. Too bad for us.

    Patricia (be0117)

  184. Absolutely right, Patricia and MD in Philly.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  185. His policies are toxic to America as we know it, and it’s by design.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  186. where is this cliff of which you speak

    happylemming (02d1bb)

  187. I was all for Boehner and company being hard-line after the 2010 election and they did not succeed very well at it.

    After seeing the one reelected in part because of wonderful success at PR spin, even if the repubs have 1001 good reasons to fight for something worthwhile on principle, I don’t think it will be effective.

    The #1 priority is to educate the American people, if possible, before it is too late. If the majority of the American people really want the Obama transformation they can go for it, but I really don’t think 51% would approve of Obama if they understood the economic realities, the basic dishonesty of his public posturing, F+F, Benghazi, his shrinkage of the military. The fact of the matter is that looking at Obama as a radical makes the most sense of his actions, as Patricia pointed out, as otherwise there is no reason for much of it.

    If the vote is to leave Locomotive Breath alone, I will, as I have other things to do, but it would have a nice first line, “In the Washington madness…”

    I heard Glenn Beck say that Revolution by the Beatles was actually written in response to a request from Bill Ayers to write “an anthem for the Revolution”. Listening to it that way certainly makes a lot of sense. Who knew, John Lennon saw through it and thought Mao and killing people was a little bit too extreme. Just think, if he was a live today maybe Lennon would be anti-Obama; the irony, John Lennon as an advocate for the saving of Western Judeo-Christian Society.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  188. where is this cliff of which you speak
    Comment by happylemming (02d1bb) — 12/1/2012 @ 9:59 am

    Hmmm, not sure I remember any happylemmings around before, and as it is a term all over the news these days I am not sure of the intention of the comment/question-

    In typical understanding the “Fiscal Cliff” is the combination of across-the-board tax increases back to what they were at the time of Bill Clinton, and a collection of “automatic spending cuts” that were part of a previous compromise to raise the national debt ceiling.
    The rise in taxes is to be feared because most people think it is likely to worsen the economy (which still boasts an unemployment rate worse that anything under Bush),
    and the spending cuts are feared because at the time they were made it was thought “unthinkable” that Congress would let them take effect.

    Some here prefer to call it a “fiscal bump”, as the realFiscal Cliff” is what will eventually happen when the national debt is so huge the economy collapses.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  189. a permanent end to Congressional control over statutory borrowing limits.

    Not sure if such a question is meaningful any more, but isn’t the financial state of the nation a responsibility of Congress, and to give some financial override to the executive branch in essence unconstitutional, and need to be made by amendment rather than a law?

    Of course, the only thing that prevents it from being done by Executive order is the willingness of the rest of government to not let a president get away with it. I bet the Senate of today would not vote for impeachment no matter what he did. Maybe he wants to get into a competition with Morsi for who can get away with the most outrageous self-promotion.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  190. I think the GOP should message it along the lines of:

    Obama’s budget proposes to spend $$$ a day. If we confiscate every penny from the wealthy it would only pay for X number of days. The other Y days will have to be paid for by the middle class via hidden taxes like fees on gasoline and other things the average American consumes every single day just to get by…. we at the GOP recognize this and want to stop the whole trainwreck aimed at middleclass America and start over. and start over

    steveg (64cdaf)

  191. See how I inadvertently typed start over twice?
    Deep down inside I knew that we’ll be “starting over” on a seemingly endless loop for some time to come.

    steveg (64cdaf)

  192. we are Coyote
    we are tied to rocket sled
    Barry is Acme

    Colonel Haiku (2209e4)

  193. As for messaging, the GOP has made it clear it won’t message anything. They love their crumbs from the king’s table!

    Maybe the Tea Party should collect money and play ads on tv?

    Patricia (be0117)

  194. we are Coyote
    falling from fiscal cliff
    above us is debt

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  195. In typical understanding the “Fiscal Cliff” is the combination of across-the-board tax increases back to what they were at the time of Bill Clinton, and a collection of “automatic spending cuts” that were part of a previous compromise to raise the national debt ceiling.

    In the new realm of obamanation I’m not sure there’s such a thing as a “typical” understanding of fiscal cliffdoom.

    Since when, from the founding of this nation, has there been talk of a fiscal cliff?

    Steve57 (1922f2)

  196. Well I dissent, MD, at most every opportunity, the House GOP eventually caved to Obama, with these ‘pyrrhic victories’ and this enabled what he wanted
    further spendings, and the failure to challenge the policies that didn’t work,

    narciso (ee31f1)

  197. Without being able to take a trip in a time machine, it’s impossible to know what this period in America’s history will mean in the long run.

    For instance, the predecessors to conservatives of today back in the 1930s, 1940s — when Roosevelt and Company were having a field day — must have perceived that this society was headed for permanent leftist decline. Yet it did gain some sanity once more following World War II. After all, the right-leaning quaintness of the era of “Father Knows Best” is a hallmark of the 1950s.

    Then again, even before then, when the Great Depression was at its peak, the middle of the socio-cultural spectrum at least was still to the right of where it is today. Simply put, the US in 2012 is far more liberal — much more leftwing (which does affect both its economy and sense of stature) — now than where it was during the first half of the early 1900s. Obama can have the mantle of “goddamn America” wrapped all around his background and, unlike an FDR or liberal/Democrat of the past, not only survive but even remain feted by much of the public.

    If we’ve caught both Euro-sclerosis and Argentina-itis — with a bit of Mexico-itis thrown in for good measure — that may be a very severe illness (I won’t say lethal combination) that will be hard to shake off in the future.

    Mark (56b304)

  198. Chriswell predicts…

    http://youtu.be/zXkYTdm8BFA

    Colonel Haiku (a61ccf)

  199. for a lazy, rainy Saturday afternoon… my niece Katie Jo Watson…

    http://youtu.be/NO3c41LjLBY

    Colonel Haiku (a61ccf)

  200. 186. Certainly, but not with the former braggadocio. Plan A, the short turnaround takeover of the GOP was a fairly miserable failure.

    The GOP as a national competitor for POTUS is now history.

    Plan B makes no promise of averting Armageddon.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  201. 189.His policies are toxic to America as we know it, and it’s by design.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 12/1/2012 @ 9:50 am

    No, no, no. They’re not toxic. He’s just so freakin’ smart we can’t figure out how good they are for us.

    As he once famously said, we ought to be thanking him.

    Steve57 (1922f2)

  202. Big Eyes…

    http://youtu.be/z9xUfu6S-Mk

    Colonel Haiku (a61ccf)

  203. Obama may have ducked the question of what we should put on the chopping block for spending cuts, but that just puts the ball in the Republican’s corner. It looks like a tough decision, although I’ll agree that there need to be cuts. He knows he can’t cut defense spending any more, there will be too many screaming about that if he proposed it. Social Security or Medicare or Medicaid? I don’t think so unless there is a lot of waste there (but I doubt that).
    From what I’ve heard, Republicans will be the party blamed if there is no deal, so the ball’s in your court.

    Tillman (51d7aa)

  204. Hmmm, not sure what the disagreement is, narciso. I agree that the GOP has been taken to the cleaners by Obama, even after the 2010 election when they had some chance to do something. Since they couldn’t do anything then I don’t expect them to do anything now, so at least make it a teaching moment and let Obama have the spotlight, just try to help it shine on a few appropriate things.

    I never heard of a “fiscal cliff” either until recently and I understand it to meean what i said above. I answered in a way that I thought was objective, as I have no idea where the happylemming was coming from. i thought about anyone visiting this site would have heard it since mention of it seems ubiquitous and was expecting it to be the beginning of a trollish diversion.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  205. From Big Eyes to a Big Assh*le, vat a segue, eh?!?!

    Colonel Haiku (a61ccf)

  206. We will be “Greece” in short order, and it will not be pretty.
    There will be serious social disruption, and dis-order.

    Perhaps that is why there is this:
    http://www.whiteoutpress.com/articles/q42012/homeland-security-graduates-first-corps-of-homeland-youth/

    What could go wrong?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  207. 207. From what I’ve heard, Republicans will be the party blamed if there is no deal, so the ball’s in your court.

    Comment by Tillman (51d7aa) — 12/1/2012 @ 1:54 pm

    So what’s the incentive to make a deal? If no deal is made the GOP will be blamed. Any deal that’s possible will suck, and then the GOP will be blamed.

    No deal. Deal. The cost is the same.

    Well, in MFM terms. The articles are already written.

    But if the GOP caves on taxes they’ll never recover. Which is different from the 2012 election because while they didn’t win the presidency they didn’t lose down ticket. But they will if they abandon principle.

    A principle which is valid. I could go into the various ways I’m getting squeezed, and its not all ObamaCare and federal taxes but they don’t help, but when I decide the squeeze is too much and I quit what then? What’s plan B?

    Steve57 (1922f2)

  208. Will someone please weld this can to the road so that when Congress comes to kick it, they at least stub their toe?

    htom (412a17)

  209. What could go <a href="http://images.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=Child+soldiers” target=”_blank”>wrong

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  210. Try that again: http://www.google.com/images?q=

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  211. Steve57, if what you’re saying is true, then you’re in a lose-lose situation and Obama’s put you there. I would like to hear more about what Republicans would like to cut other than getting rid of Obabmcare. But like I said, it doesn’t look easy.

    Tillman (51d7aa)

  212. we could cut the tsa

    useless pigs is useless

    happyfeet (1b8328)

  213. Tillman,

    Are you the same commenter as P. Tillman?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  214. I am sure it is just a fluke, DRJ.

    JD (2e25be)

  215. If it is the same P. Tillman, then it would seem his better angels have taken hold. Which would be a wonderful thing, of course…

    Yet, I remain skeptical.

    Dana (292dcf)

  216. No, he’s dropped the P before.

    EPWJ (2a58f7)

  217. Thanks, JD.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  218. Four more years of economic turnaround, if the republicans play ball. That means every individual paying their fair share of taxes. It also means cuts in entitlement spending. Shame on any politician who won’t agree to both.

    beach comber (8d5189)

  219. If Tillman is supposed to be P-Dilly, it must be the P-Dilly from the weekend shift seeing as he isn’t foaming at the mouth and sounding like a fool.

    Weekend-Tillman sounds reasonable and un-troll-like.

    Pious Agnostic (20c167)

  220. 223. Assuming the sarc tag is missing for reason:

    “Four more years of economic turnaround”

    Good one, I slapped my knee I dislocated it.

    “if the republicans play ball”

    What’s the game?

    “if the republicans play ball”

    Even less than they earned?

    “Cuts in entitlement spending”

    So by what criteria do we know Medicare was cut?

    “Shame on any politician who won’t agree to both.”

    Shame, politician, fish, bicycle, there’s a metaphor in there somewhere.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  221. 223.Four more years of economic turnaround, if the republicans play ball. That means every individual paying their fair share of taxes. It also means cuts in entitlement spending. Shame on any politician who won’t agree to both.

    Would you agree to revenue[snort taxes] now, and spending cuts later? Because you know the track record on future promised cuts, right?

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (721840)

  222. 216.Steve57, if what you’re saying is true, then you’re in a lose-lose situation and Obama’s put you there. I would like to hear more about what Republicans would like to cut other than getting rid of Obabmcare. But like I said, it doesn’t look easy.

    Comment by Tillman (51d7aa) — 12/1/2012 @ 2:47 pm

    This might be tough for you to believe, but I really would try to make money even though Barack Obama is President. I’m not rich enough that I can afford to sit out eight years.

    Last I checked the exchange rate was 82.4 yen to the dollar. In English that’s called a disaster.
    to make my business run I have to import ****.

    So what would you have me do, Tillman? Pay more in taxes?

    Steve57 (1922f2)

  223. There isn’t very much kindness for differing viewpoints offered here.

    beach comber (8d5189)

  224. 228.There isn’t very much kindness for differing viewpoints offered here.

    I asked you a question. Did I need to say “please?”

    Alright, please tell me if you know what the track record of Congress’ promise to cut spending in the future?

    George H. W. Bush broke his “read my lips” promise on taxes with the understanding that Congress would cut spending. The democrats mocked him during his 1992 presidential re-election campaign. It’s not a serious offer—period. What would lead you to believe the democrats are seriously considering spending cuts? History?

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (721840)

  225. beach comber, please excuse any tendency to unkindness you may encounter. I assure you, there are kind folks on this board.

    But some others patience is a little thin. Hatefull trolls appear with regularity, unable to express themselves without venom. It becomes a chore to engage them.

    Above, you wrote: Four more years of economic turnaround, if the republicans play ball. That means every individual paying their fair share of taxes. It also means cuts in entitlement spending. Shame on any politician who won’t agree to both.

    Let me tell you why the words you chose grates on me, and perhaps you’ll see why you may have gotten the reaction you did:

    Four more years of economic turnaround

    I do not characterize the last foure years as years of economic turnaround, and am not looking forward to another four years of similar policies. Any recovery has occurred in spite of this administrations policies. (Admittedly, an unprovable assertion, but so is the converse.)

    if the republicans play ball.

    I interpret this to mean that you think the Republicans should just go along with the Democrats on whatever they want to do. Do you think that would be a popular idea among Republicans? Would you have advised Democrats to just play ball with Republicans?

    That means every individual paying their fair share of taxes.

    Define fair, for the purposes of this argument? Do you mean every individual, or do you mean you want to increase taxes on the richest individuals? It annoys me when this sort of wordplay is utilized instead of plain speaking.

    It also means cuts in entitlement spending.

    OK, but you see I’m cynical enough (and have a long-enough memory of Democrat trechery in this area) to think that any promises made today will be broken tomorrow. This sounds distressingly like “The check is in the mail…”

    Shame on any politician who won’t agree to both.

    There is plenty of shame deserved. At least we can agree on that.

    Was I kind enough?

    Pious Agnostic (20c167)

  226. It’s all going to crash and burn no matter what. There is no ball, or won’t be when it’s time for kicking.

    Tried to warn you.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  227. It’s all going to crash and burn no matter what.

    That’s true. Without significant economic growth, we’ll not be able to generate enough revenue to pay the interest on our debt, let alone the principal. Counting to 1 trillion is estimated to take 32,000 years. People have no concept of a $16 trillion dollar debt.

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (721840)

  228. BTW, I’m not the same as P. Tillman. I had the Tillman name a long time ago here, and I’d like to keep it.

    Tillman (51d7aa)

  229. 228. A piechart is worth a thousand words:

    http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2012/12/laughingstock-washington-post-beclowns.html

    And $1.6 Trillion in projected revenues will never materialize. The 54% of jobs created by S-chapter proprietorships will shrivel and the very rich will pull up stakes.

    You are without semblance of sophistication.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  230. whoever you are, Tillman, I fail to see why I should invite the the Democrats into my house to trash the place simply because the Republicans lied to me last time around. Like it’s their turn.

    Steve57 (1922f2)

  231. That means every individual paying their fair share of taxes. It also means cuts in entitlement spending. Shame on any politician who won’t agree to both.

    I keep hearing about people paying their fair share of taxes. Beachcomber, what, exactly is one’s fair share? What should the marginal rates be, and at what income levels should they kick in?

    And if someone lowers his effective rate by donating a great deal of money to charity, is he not paying his fair share?

    Put some numbers in your posts, not just vague assertions.

    Chuck Bartowski (ad7249)

  232. Pious-

    Actually I think that means that there needs to be a compromise. Problems cannot be addressed if both parties refuse to budge so that they can pander to their fringes.

    beach comber (8d5189)

  233. Forget it, Chuck! beach comber just wanted to tell us we’re mean rethuglicans for challenging its assertions. IOW, RACISTS!!! I’ll be able to sleep tonight.

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (721840)

  234. Actually I think that means that there needs to be a compromise. Problems cannot be addressed if both parties refuse to budge so that they can pander to their fringes.

    We understand that. The question is, Please tell us if taxes should be raised WITH THE PROMISE OF FUTURE SPENDING CUTS, that never EVER seem to take place? Geesh!

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (721840)

  235. beach comber, what compromise would you like to see between spending more than you’ve got and not spending more than you’ve got?

    Steve57 (1922f2)

  236. Asking specifics is mean, and of course, RACIST!

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (721840)

  237. beach comber, you wrote:

    Actually I think that means that there needs to be a compromise.

    So, “play ball” means compromise? Ok, insert that into your previous post and see if it’s any better.

    Problems cannot be addressed if both parties refuse to budge so that they can pander to their fringes.

    Problems also can’t be addressed if one party doesn’t negotiate in good faith; so far I’ve seen no indication that President Obama intends to.

    The problem with your comments is I can’t tell if you’re serious or not. You are rather vague. No unkindness meant.

    Pious Agnostic (20c167)

  238. Tillman,

    I asked if you were the same person as P. Tillman because I wanted to continue a discussion from yesterday, and I wasn’t sure if I was talking to the same person. I didn’t mean to imply that you should change your name. Frankly, I should have realized you weren’t the same persons because we can check comments for identifying hashtags, and yours doesn’t match P. Tillman’s.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  239. Pointing out passive aggressive nonsense is just mean.

    JD (2e25be)

  240. I’d like to see corporate rates kept the same or lowered, but individual rates for the top 5-10% raised. This would allow businesses to reinvest.

    It would be nice to see a cut in entitlement spending. How much? I don’t know. Removing all safety nets from our society should not be an option. Letting children starve in America can’t be an option. Continually cutting checks to people who are using them for cell phones, big screen tvs, and $200 sneakers can’t be an option any longer. We can fix this, but not when either party is spitting rhetoric or some of the loaded questions that have already been posed to me here.

    beach comber (8d5189)

  241. I knew pie charts were worth a lot of words but I had never counted

    happyfeet (1b8328)

  242. “Good faith” is a bs term that means “agree to the lies of my particular political party as a foundation on which we negotiate”.

    beach comber (8d5189)

  243. When are we going to stop this nonsense about “business taxes”, “corporate taxes”, etc?
    Taxes on businesses just get paid by their consumers.
    Business (corporate) profits should only be taxes when passed through as dividends/profit sharing.

    askeptic (2bb434)

  244. Removing all safety nets from our society should not be an option. Letting children starve in America can’t be an option

    I suppose you could identify where we are calling for that. Or anyone calling for that.

    Innocent Bystander is above the fray, you meanies.

    JD (318f81)

  245. Oops…. “…only be taxed…”

    askeptic (2bb434)

  246. Maybe you could point out where I accused anyone here of calling for that? Or was I simply making a point to which you are trying to be deliberately and inexplicably belligerent?

    beach comber (8d5189)

  247. Hello, everyone. I have not read this blog in over a week. I like the changes! I hope I get a catchy hashtag.

    Felipe (3243af)

  248. This Tillman is different than the other. It has been here since before SEP, when it argued that federal health insurance mandates were the same as state auto insurance mandates. And played the why are you being mean card to me.

    JD (318f81)

  249. If we are not calling for that “Innocent Bystander” nor is anyone else, what point could you possible be making?

    JD (318f81)

  250. Only in America can one type up comment 253 followed immediately by 254. Bipolar.

    beach comber (8d5189)

  251. “3243af”. I am a musician, among other things, and my hashtag is a nice melody in the key of C.

    E, D, F, E, A, F. Nice.

    Felipe (3243af)

  252. Why are you being inexplicably belligerent?! Stop being mean to me.

    JD (318f81)

  253. He wants to take the entire country over this supposed fiscal cliff….to win a talking point against Republicans.

    But but but…hes a good man that just wants to do what he thinks is best for the country.

    What a freaking joke.

    Mr. Pink (25b629)

  254. Poor Mr. Pink… the economy’s so bad, he can’t even fix his broken record.

    Leviticus (17b7a5)

  255. Mr. Pink- Sounds to me like our esteemed host is espousing the position you are pinning on the president. “Walk away”? Read the post, Pink.

    beach comber (8d5189)

  256. our esteemed host is espousing the position you are pinning on the president. “Walk away”

    Obama already walked away. He made a ridiculous proposal, and then took off on vacation until after the New Year, after making a couple campaign stops.

    JD (318f81)

  257. I’d like to see corporate rates kept the same or lowered, but individual rates for the top 5-10% raised. This would allow businesses to reinvest.

    [facepalm]

    Good night, folks. I’ve had enough.

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (721840)

  258. Nothing fixes an economy like taxing the taxpayers.

    JD (318f81)

  259. I didn’t realize Obama is a congressman. You do now how our government works, right?

    beach comber (8d5189)

  260. The idea of the sequester and fiscal cliff came from the Obama Administration, and it will take leadership to resolve it. But I guess your idea of leadership and mine differ.

    JD (318f81)

  261. Nice save.

    beach comber (8d5189)

  262. You do now how our government works, right?

    Why are you being inexplicably hostile?

    JD (318f81)

  263. Nope. Not hostile. I just wanted to be sure that you knew that Congress passes bills. Congress also have leadership on both sides of the aisle. Were you aware of that? Look at us! We are learning new things. You are, anyway.

    beach comber (8d5189)

  264. Eff off, “innocent Bystander”

    JD (318f81)

  265. Hairy Reed and Pelosi are fine leaders.

    JD (318f81)

  266. I agree, JD. I agree. They should be able to engineer some sort of compromise. Next week I will teach you what the judicial branch does. But for not remember that the president does not pass legislation.

    beach comber (8d5189)

  267. hide your kids hide your wife and also hide your husbands cause of obama raping everybody out there

    happyfeet (1b8328)

  268. But for now*

    beach comber (8d5189)

  269. What is it with mendoucheous trolls this week?

    JD (318f81)

  270. passive agressive commenters are fun to watch

    elissa (13fd9e)

  271. 264. “I didn’t realize Obama is a congressman.”

    Dear Leader, ibn Dunham, is the Whore of Babylon to me, part of the 49.6%.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  272. It is a common haughty tone that so many of the serial trolls utilize, Elissa.

    JD (318f81)

  273. Nancy did a nice job of compromising when getting Obamacare passed. She’s an excellent policy explainer and a thorough reader of bills, too.

    I like her pearls.

    I’m not keen on her new hairdo or her recent facelift, though. I think those were pretty much mistakes.

    elissa (13fd9e)

  274. Well if you are going to be rude I will stop tutoring you. You can learn from Elissa. Elissa, would you be a peach and teach JD about the branches of government for me? He seems to think that the president has unilateral powers and should userp the duties of congress.

    beach comber (8d5189)

  275. 279. The Usurper “I often wish I could prevail over the Congress”.

    Well don’t let an outdated document get in your way, Il Douche.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  276. He seems to think that the president has unilateral powers and should userp the duties of congress.

    I think nothing of the sort, you lying twatwaffle. Though it is clear that given his actions, Obama thinks that he does not need Congress, and rule by EO and regulation “we cannot wait”. God forbid Obama act like a leader. I know he isn’t one, but it would be nice if he would just fake it for once, or at least try.

    JD (318f81)

  277. If you don’t think that then recant your previous statement about Obama walking away.

    beach comber (8d5189)

  278. JD–the president does not legislate or compromise but he signs elegant and awesome (and unilateral) executive orders and he personally hires czars who do not require conformation, and he invades countries without telling comgress he and sends drones and maintains a kill list.

    elissa (13fd9e)

  279. Letting children starve in America can’t be an option.

    Because, of course, that’s the rethuglican counter to the dem proposal to raising the debt limit to infinity.

    Here’s a thought; howzabout we don’t force religious organizations willing to open soup kitchens and homeless shelters so that “letting children starve in the streets” isn’t an option to pay for abortifacients?

    Oh, all of a sudden letting children starve in the streets is an option. Got it.

    Steve57 (1922f2)

  280. Elissa. Lamenting over the death of bin Laden? That is pretty messed up even for a right wing site.

    beach comber (8d5189)

  281. Hi, Felipe (3243af)! I like your positive attitude.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  282. Hi, beach comber. Are you P. Tillman? I’m asking everyone that question today, so I might as well as you.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  283. We’re in for a wild ride in 2013. Greece, Spain and Argentina default. The world, Norway excepted, is in recession.

    Millions of full-time jobs in Amerikkka become contract or part-time. Bush tax cuts expire and the IRS starts enforcing Obamaneycare penalties. 50K providers suspend service to Medicare patients.

    Coal fired power plants shut down all over the East. Municipalities going bankrupt becomes as common as banks, half again as businesses.

    The cliff is post fact.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  284. What does “paying your fair share” mean exactly? The people have been told over and over that if we just give in this one time to higher taxes, all our financial problems will be solved. Just one more little increase, and that will be enough.

    Income taxes, sales taxes, estate taxes, VAT, lotteries–and it still is not enough. It’s never enough. It has never ever been enough, and it will not be enough in the future.

    Patricia (be0117)

  285. Uh, lamenting the death of bin Laden??? OK—I must have missed that anybody mentioned bin Laden or the gutsy call at any time here today.

    elissa (13fd9e)

  286. What is Obama’s message of compromise. ‘I Won’ and Pelosi, ‘well you have to vote for it, in order to find what is in it,’ and Conyers, has much the same
    argument, ‘what good is it, to read the bill’ As to the drone, not long after an attempt to take Zawahiri, in Bajaur province, then Senator Obama
    spoke of US forces ‘unnecessarily air raiding villages’

    narciso (ee31f1)

  287. Beach combed was innocent bystander previously. It is one of those above the fray passive aggressive twatwaffles, that likes to put words in people’s mouths. Witness the Bin Laden nonsense above.

    Maybe it is best Obama walked away. He demonstrated how unserious he is about leading on this, and last time his bad faith nearly torpedoed any agreement.

    JD (318f81)

  288. Barack Obama was a magnificent and diligent lawmaker and public servant when he served both in Illinois and in the U.S. Senate, wasn’t he? A real workhorse. One can easily see all the camaraderie and social interaction and respect he still maintains with his former colleagues in the legislative btanch.

    elissa (13fd9e)

  289. No. JD is right. I was innocent bystander. I was here a while ago and just didn’t remember my handle. I likely won’t be back. I seemed to have been caught in the net of the nasty commenters here.

    beach comber (8d5189)

  290. You are learning JD. You used “bad faith” in the exact way that I defined it earlier.

    beach comber (8d5189)

  291. beach comber, I’m still waiting for you to demonstrate your commitment to not letting children starve in the streets.

    By, you know, allowing religious organizations that are against abortion to feed them.

    Because if that was your absolute priority, it would show.

    Christian religious orders have been preventing children from starving on city sidewalks since before there was a US government.

    So choose.

    Steve57 (1922f2)

  292. 291. I know I shouldn’t bet on Boehner for backbone, but I’ll be he remembers his sequester gambit.

    He had to ‘compromise’ so the GOP wouldn’t take a bath in 2012.

    And then all the internal polls blew up in our face.

    We lost 3 Million Republican voters.

    Does he deal with Beelzebub and risk a lousier deal than standing pat?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  293. I’d like to see corporate rates kept the same or lowered, but individual rates for the top 5-10% raised. This would allow businesses to reinvest.

    You didn’t answer my question with specifics. What is a “fair share”? Why are the top 5-10% not paying their fair share? What should that share be?

    If you are arguing that the bottom 90-95% are now paying their fair share, then you can thank George W. Bush for amending the tax rates to effect this situation. Before Bush, they were paying more than their fair share (at least, if one follows your line of reasoning to its logical conclusion).

    So, let’s try again: what, exactly, is the fair share? What marginal tax rates define “fair share”? Is it unfair to lower your effective tax rate by using legal Schedule A deductions?

    Let’s see some specific numbers. All you’ve given so far is very vague ideas.

    Chuck Bartowski (ad7249)

  294. “No. JD is right. I was innocent bystander. I was here a while ago and just didn’t remember my handle.”

    - beach comber

    Well, it’s nice that you remember it now. And that you’re leaving.

    Leviticus (17b7a5)

  295. You used “bad faith” in the exact way that I defined it earlier.

    Apparently you are unaware of Obama’s actions in the last set of negotiations on this. Or you are ignorant.

    JD (318f81)

  296. Right, who can forget when he ‘dangled’ social security check, and the benefits of military families, as hostages to the negotiation,

    narciso (ee31f1)

  297. Pious – you gave it way more credit than it deserved.

    JD (318f81)

  298. Speaking of bad faith, JD, why is it that the only people who are proposing that children die in the streets get away with accusing others of doing the same?

    It isn’t like FEMA is going to step up the plate and fill the gap if Catholic Charities are put out of business due to the HHS mandate. But people, real people, will suffer if the gub’mint insists on religious organizations choosing to remain religious organizations if they want to continue their missions.

    I don’t see much concern for children starving when the left decides to impose its pro-abortion inclinations or else on organizations feeding children. And other unfortunates. The ‘tude apparently is these people are better off dead then being fed by pro-lifers.

    Steve57 (1922f2)

  299. With them eying the charity deduction, 401 Ks, et al, who knows what will be safe, it’s like the Resident evil election, with the T4 virus,

    narciso (ee31f1)

  300. Patricia–My survival backup plan is simple: to stock up now on cases of canned cat food and dog food, and large size peanut butter, and chocolate bars, and batteries.

    elissa (13fd9e)

  301. “elissa. Lamenting over the death of bin Laden? That is pretty messed up even for a right wing site.

    Comment by beach comber (8d5189) — 12/1/2012 @ 7:00 pm

    Well, that’s a pretty outrageous misrepresentation of what elissa wrote. The epitome of bad faith seems to be your own conduct, beach comber. Despicable fits pretty well too.

    SPQR (768505)

  302. I predict a lot of people will -within one year – be losing a lot of sleep (and more), lamenting the choice they made – either voting to re-elect the Sh*theel-in-Chief or sitting on their hands and not voting on November 6th.

    Colonel Haiku (94ebd3)

  303. Steve,

    I think it’s part of their Alinsky gameplan—the fewer private religious charities there are, the bigger the vacuum which will exist for Big Government to step in and “help” people who are down on their luck.
    When people are helped by private religious organizations, they are susceptible to listening to the points of view of said organizations, most of which promote “conservative” values.

    On the other hand, when Big Government “assists” people, those people become dependent upon Big Government, and inherently become Democrat voters.

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  304. Pretty good, even for Steyn:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/334549/kindly-note-impending-bankruptcy-mark-steyn#

    Gotta admit, I thought the sequester was $100 Billion per year, not $153 Billion over 10 yrs.

    We are so screwed.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  305. 305.Patricia–My survival backup plan is simple: to stock up now on cases of canned cat food and dog food, and large size peanut butter, and chocolate bars, and batteries.

    Comment by elissa (13fd9e) — 12/1/2012 @ 7:42 pm

    My plan is to stock up on black powder and lead. With enough black powder and lead, all else is within your grasp.

    301.Right, who can forget when he ‘dangled’ social security check, and the benefits of military families, as hostages to the negotiation,

    Comment by narciso (ee31f1) — 12/1/2012 @ 7:27 pm

    I’m glad to see I’m not the only one offended by the leftard attempts to equate military service with welfare status.

    I know the leftards don’t care. It’s why Obama can seriously contemplate making Kerry SecDef.

    But what’s the practical effect? We’ve got two poulatians that are equally considered dependants of government. Well, not equally; population that is considered undependable. The one doing the heavy lifting.

    I posted a link to what was left of the New Orleans after the battle of Tassaforonga.

    You know what the guys who lived through that got to do?

    Hose what was left of their shipmates out of the mangled remains of the bow of their ship.

    Welfare. I think not.

    Steve57 (1922f2)

  306. A friend of mine’a father was on the Atlanta, in another battle in the Solomons, when it blew up, he was the X.O.

    narciso (ee31f1)

  307. The light anti-aircraft cruisers were believed to be the real deal against the Japanese. They didn’t have the big guns, but they could really pour it on.

    I’m not saying it was the right answer. Just that, given what was in the inventory, it was probably the best deal that could have been worked out.

    Steve57 (1922f2)

  308. I knew of the marine campaign on the canal, but I didn’t realize the grueling naval campaign there,
    till I read ‘Neptune’s Inferno’

    narciso (ee31f1)

  309. narciso, have you asked your dad’s friend of the blown up Atlanta to weigh to weigh in on Panetta’s happy horse **** that it’s a basic US principle not to send people into harm’s way?

    At least, not without knowing what’s going on.

    The very idea I could link up with a couple of SEALs (and let’s not be chauvanistic; I’m sure the other services played their part) actually on the objective is like a wet dream.

    But, no. I’m told to believe that the best in the business weren’t providing the intel. So it was a no go.

    Steve57 (1922f2)

  310. He takes a dim view of the administration, having worked with Special Forces in vietnam, of course, that was a bogus excuse,

    narciso (ee31f1)

  311. 305-Make damn sure you have fresh water.

    mg (31009b)

  312. 315.He takes a dim view of the administration, having worked with Special Forces in vietnam, of course, that was a bogus excuse,

    Comment by narciso (ee31f1) — 12/1/2012 @ 8:50 pm

    He’ll be pleased to note I was never involved with special forces. Except tangenially. Like submarines.

    Steve57 (1922f2)

  313. I wish that the social worker part of Catholic Charities would be put out of business. I have dealt with the fat, ugly, stupid, uncaring, time-serving, check-earning, ibtchess in Juvenile Court. Cook County farms out child-care to them. They are worthless, ignorant, uncaring trash.

    (C*** came to court to testify. I asked her, “Did you read the [child's] file?” She said, “No”. The State’s Attorney saved me by stipulating.)

    But they screw up poor people and children every day.

    nk (875f57)

  314. nk, what’s the deal with you? I never claimed the people working for Catholic Charities were perfect.

    On the other hand, I know for an absolute fact that with a minimum amount of digging I can come up with tales of gub’mint workers behaving all kinds of bad on the taxpayer’s dime.

    I think the point is that if, IF, making sure kids don’t die of starvation is the goal then torpedoing religious organizations that feed them would be off the table.

    Steve57 (1922f2)

  315. 313. I knew of the marine campaign on the canal, but I didn’t realize the grueling naval campaign there,
    till I read ‘Neptune’s Inferno’

    Comment by narciso (ee31f1) — 12/1/2012 @ 8:39 pm

    The Army actually wiped out the last remnants of resistance on Guadalcanal.

    I’m not trying to take something away from the Marines by pointing this out. If ever a group of bad***es gave real meaning to the concept of “hold until relieved” it was the Marines.

    They just weren’t as alone as they’d like to make out. They were relieved by the Army. And the Navy didn’t run away.

    http://destroyerhistory.org/flushdeck/green_dragons/

    I’ve yet to meet a Marine who can tell me what good Fletcher’s carrier battle group would have been if it ran out out of gas.

    Steve57 (1922f2)

  316. 320. Enjoying the history, most of my relations and friends were in the European Theatre.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  317. 318. Well you do live in the lowest, vilest Hell on the continent.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  318. 329, I also enjoyed the history. Thanks, Steve57. The military discussion seems to be a tonic for the previous nastiness. There is nothing like examples of real sacrifice to drive away ingratitude.

    Felipe (3243af)

  319. It’s a rather remarkable moment, not brought to light as often, as the European theatre, they were offering firing salvos at night, at close distances,

    narciso (ee31f1)

  320. Sounds good, elissa. I have an earthquake pack but I think I need an Obama pack too.

    Patricia (be0117)

  321. Hydration packs, emergency rations, ammo for shotgun, rifle and pistol.

    askeptic (2bb434)


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