Patterico's Pontifications

11/17/2012

Open Thread: The Fiscal Cliff!!!!!!!1!!1!!

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:05 pm

Your thoughts on the dreaded fiscal cliff below.

By the way, we are actively working on the site to improve performance. Patience!

91 Responses to “Open Thread: The Fiscal Cliff!!!!!!!1!!1!!”

  1. Ding!

    Um, with Recent Comments (temporarily) screwed up, is there any point to the ding? Probably not, huh?

    Patterico (8b3905)

  2. Just so I’m clear–the scenario where we DON’T continue to spend trillions more than we take in is the fiscal cliff?

    oneisnotprime (ac06e6)

  3. Cut no deals. Shut it down.

    AZ Bob (1c9631)

  4. Sometimes we do see Recent comments. Not right now.

    Sammy Finkelman (69e89f)

  5. Just so I’m clear–the scenario where we DON’T continue to spend trillions more than we take in is the fiscal cliff?

    Yes, because it also involves drastic military cuts that we may not be able to afford, and drastic tax increases.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  6. Obama may be prepared to see the Bush tax cuts expire, because then Republicans would be in the position of only voting to cut taxes and might consent in the end to leaving the highest brackets out.

    Various ideas are floating around including:

    1) a tax rate between the Bush rate and the Clinton rate, perhaps “paid for” by limiting deductions a la the proposal Romney mentioned during the debates.

    2) a tax increase but not for Subchapter S corporations, who would stay at the Bush rate.

    3) going back to the previous tax rate but only for people earning over $500,000 or $1,000,000, not $250,000. (that was a proposal of Sen. Schumer a while back)

    Those above are kind of alternatives.

    Also being discussed are:

    4) A slightly lower than pre-Bush capital gains tax,

    5) Preserving lower tax rate on corporate dividends.

    6) Keeping estate tax from going up, at least all the way.

    There’s a bunch of other things they have to do too, like re-enacting the doc fix, and the alternative minimum tax limitation. Don’t forget the elimination of taxation for the “profit” from loan forgiveness in short sales of houses. The payroll tax cut nobody seems interested in, but Obama may want a substitute.

    Obama also wants to throw a debt ceiling increase into the mix, although that can wait a few months, at least till March.

    Sammy Finkelman (69e89f)

  7. Give him what he wants–let him own it.

    Patricia (be0117)

  8. Nobody smells Cloward-Piven in all of this?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward%E2%80%93Piven_strategy

    I sure do.

    Simon Jester (22c1f6)

  9. ==Nobody smells Cloward-Piven in all of this?==

    Simon–smelling it versus being able to stop it, when most Americans on either side of the aisle, I think, cannot comprehend it even as a possibility is the problem.

    elissa (88944e)

  10. I don’t think this is the hill we want to die on today. Less than 50% of those with incomes over $250,000 vote Republican. A compromise might be to keep the higher rates for those with incomes over $1 million. I know it’s ridiculous but the present Obama plan does nothing for the deficit.

    Mike K (326cba)

  11. even the Rs want to give the whore federal government more revenue

    lights out america

    you suck

    happyfeet (dd80f2)

  12. Prayers for Mike Ditka, who suffered a minor stroke today.

    Icy (093576)

  13. We’re 16 trillion in debt, actually the number is much higher, but raising the rates, won’t boost revenue, that’s the counterintuitive nature of things,

    narciso (ee31f1)

  14. 13. We’re 16 trillion in debt, actually the number is much higher, but raising the rates, won’t boost revenue, that’s the counterintuitive nature of things,

    Comment by narciso — 11/17/2012 @ 10:00 pm

    There’s really nothing counterintuitive about it.

    When you raise tax rates on the top brackets, the people who are in those brackets start to think there are better ways to use their time than to try to make that next dollar.

    It’s a question of what’s your time worth. Or rather, what’s worth your time.

    Obama knows this. Recall how he said he’d raise the tax rates even if revenue went down out of “fairness.”

    Fairness means if others have less, you should have less. People who’ve lived in socialist countries know that socialism doesn’t make the poor richer. It makes the rich poorer. That’s the ultimate expression of Obama’s version of fairness.

    Steve57 (7a880e)

  15. Let’s jump. Get it over with.

    The suspense is killing me.

    How bad could it be?

    Jcw46 (f23062)

  16. socialism equalizes the classes: it makes everybody poor.

    Jcw46 (f23062)

  17. Wll it’s counterintuitive, because it is the reverse of one would feel would happen, not what actually happens, Unger (one of the founders of CLS) Bell, et al, all sort of know, the consequences of such an action, but their anger
    needs to be sated.

    narciso (ee31f1)

  18. 7- Patricia, I agree let zero and the dems wear the fiscal fiasco.

    mg (31009b)

  19. 17. Wll it’s counterintuitive, because it is the reverse of one would feel would happen, not what actually happens, Unger (one of the founders of CLS) Bell, et al, all sort of know, the consequences of such an action, but their anger
    needs to be sated.

    Comment by narciso — 11/17/2012 @ 11:02 pm

    I think you nailed it; what one would feel.

    It really is counterintuitive, then, to a liberal. Ever notice how liberals will ask in puzzlement, “If crime is down, how come we have more people in prison?”

    It’s an old truism; if you want less of something, tax it.

    Liberals don’t have any problem understanding that when it comes to “sin” taxes. Like tobacco. They know that the higher they raise the taxes, the more people will quit.

    Somehow they don’t get it when it comes to work. If you tax work (in the form of the income that results), the more people will quit.

    This is why socialism never works. And make no mistake, liberalism is socialism in mufti. “You keep working, and after we let you have what we think you need we’ll spread the rest around.”

    Actually I just described the progressive tax system (see what I mean about liberalism=socialism).

    It never works because if people can’t keep the results of their work, they quit.

    Unless there’s an overseer with a bullwhip around. We used to have that sort of employer/employee relationship in the southern part of the country up until the 1860s.

    Steve57 (7a880e)

  20. [...] more from the original source: Open Thread: The Fiscal Cliff!!!!!!!1!!1!! [...]

    Open Thread: The Fiscal Cliff!!!!!!!1!!1!! | Liberal Whoppers (cf3ed2)

  21. I’m curious about this cliff. What’s at the bottom?

    Geronimo!

    (I denounce myself.)

    Pious Agnostic (2c3220)

  22. The draconian spending cuts are anything but.

    JD (318f81)

  23. There’s a part of me that says we should get behind and push it over the cliff. That’s going to be the only way to get through to the idiots who’ve made this mess. However, another part of me says that if we did, they’d just say it was all our fault.

    And then I realize they’re going to say that anyway.

    htom (412a17)

  24. The Dems are looking forward to this. They get to increase taxes, and take advantage of another crisis they created, all while blaming someone else.

    JD (318f81)

  25. socialism equalizes the classes: it makes everybody poor.

    Unfortunately, no, it doesn’t. It’s more like feudalism. It concentrates it in the hands of only the Lords and Ladies… our massuhs.

    IGotBupkis, Legally Defined Cyberbully in All 57 States (8e2a3d)

  26. 24. Concur, ‘fiscal’ in cliff is total horsesh*t.

    Any reduction in spending is welcome. Cue GOP broken retreat.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  27. Besides, it doesn’t do a damn thing about the debt load. This so called cliff just gives us the pain without the gain. the debt load will still be there because it’s too big.

    the cliff is really just a change in the angle of the upward trajectory of the debt. From 60 to 45 but we’re still going up and when the balloon pops, That will be the real cliff.

    Now rather than later.

    Jcw46 (f23062)

  28. As someone asserted in last week’s discussion about the Constitution, we should probably just forget about this whole Constitution thingee, and confer power to a wise oligarchy of community organizers, lawyers, and judges ’cause some of them have studied law. Or something.

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  29. Allow the sequestration to happen. It’s the only way we’ll ever see any spending cuts.

    gp (0c542c)

  30. I does seem that upholding the law has become optional these days.

    tyree (84087f)

  31. The thing is, it won’t impact all of us equally. 140,000 aerospace workers, who didn’t vote for O anyway, will be unemployed. 2/3 of the French military budget is salaries and administration, so maybe they can give us some notes on how to do it.

    TimesDisliker (58c0ec)

  32. The biggest problem we face in America today is that we tolerate lying on a grand scale. When that occurs, first principles have been abandoned and everything else then is simply reduced to a symptom.

    If truth be told, we have already gone over the fiscal – and Constitutional – cliff.

    You have to work really hard, for a really long time, to get over $16-TRILLION in debt. The fact of the matter is, that to accrue that financial debt (and they are lying to us, as it is much, much, greater with unfunded liabilities and off budget items), one has to first accrue several character deficits.

    We have spent decades gutting America, allowing corrupt corporations to ship our jobs & technology overseas, and meanwhile at home came up with one gimmick, scam, scheme and bogus compromise and put on the credit card or expanded the budget deficit.

    We have abandoned our first principles – and our Constitution.

    This country was founded with the first, first principle – being Liberty. Liberty has been overcome with falsely applied secondary principles of equality, and fairness.

    The Constitution starts out, We The People – cross that out and write in the present – We The Government.

    The three foundational principles of the Constitution are: 1) a limited federal government; 2) a written Constitution and Rule of Law; and 3) a representative Republic. Again, these principles have been abandoned.

    1)The federal government is anything but limited, and does everything but its core functions; it has become cancerous behemoth, ever metastasing and ever diminishing out Liberty. See Who Will Tell The People: The Betrayal of American Democracy (1992) by William Greider. http://www.amazon.com/Who-Will-Tell-The-People/dp/0671867407

    When do you ever hear the principle of limited government – come out of any of the pols (or judges) in Washington D.C.?

    And where is a responsible press calling them to account?

    2) The Constitution and the Rule of Law, are routinely trumped by politics and corruption, and the federal government has ever increasing immunity and secrets.

    Perjury is rampant in out courts, they ply their false “transparency, yet we can not get to the bottom of any scandal (Fast & Furious, Benghazi Consulate attack; see The Liberal War on Transparency (2012) by Chris Horner
    http://www.amazon.com/The-Liberal-War-Transparency-Confessions/dp/1451694881) and crooks like Jon Corzine (who stole $1.6-BILLION of client funds as his MF Global crashed) go scot free.

    And where is a responsible press calling our government officials to account?

    3) We have abandoned being a representative Republic, when we capped the House of Representative at 435 in 1911 when we had a national population of ~ 125,000,000; we now have over 315,000,000 people and still 435 representative. The Legislature was placed first in the Constitution, as it was the most direct connection to the People, as they were elected by the People, especially – The House – as it was supposed to be the pulse and life blood of the nation’s government. Yet representation has been ever diminishing since 1911. http://www.thirty-thousand.org/ Further, the judiciary which was placed third and last, was supposed to be the weakest, could will nothing, and its only power was through the wisdom and reason of it decisions, now has over twice the amount of judges as we have representatives. http://www.uscourts.gov/JudgesAndJudgeships/FederalJudgeships.aspx

    The judiciary has leap frogged over the House and is now first. Can you say judicial supremacy? California is even worse, and as the saying goes, As goes California, so goes the Nation. And then tack on the dearth of impeachments and that almost 100% of misconduct complaints against federal judges, year-in-year-out are dismissed without any discipline being imposed. See Without Merit: The Empty Promise of Judicial Discipline (1997) http://www.judgewatch.org/articles/without-merit-1997.pdf and The Center for Judicial Accountability’s March 6, 2008 Critique of the Breyer Committee Report on the Implementation of the Judicial Conduct and Disability Act of 1980 http://www.judgewatch.org/web-pages/judicial-discipline/federal/critique-breyer-report.htm arguing the Breyer report is a fraud. Current Poster Child for judicial misconduct after Chief Justice Roberts re ObamaCare decision: USDC-Central District, California, Manuel Real. And finally, add in the unconstitutional despicable and dastardly doctrine of Absolute Judicial Immunity – that covers corrupt and malicious acts.

    And where is a responsible press, calling them to account?

    Liberty & Truth require constant vigilance.

    gzerman (a10726)

  33. 28. Indeed, martial law is in the mail, Constitution is gonna need resurrection at some future date.

    When all them boomers is just ashes in the wind.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  34. Another step in Obama’s march toward dictatorship.

    Dirty Old Man (dc479b)

  35. As George Will said this morning on ABC: For 40 years the democrats have sought both to raise taxes and to cut military spending. So this fiscal cliff/sequestration project works perfectly for them. Just perfectly.

    elissa (9cad09)

  36. Asked by ABC’s Martha Raddatz on This Week, “Could you accept a deal that does not include tax rate increases for the wealthy? We’ve seen talk about a possible compromise that would leave rates the same, but cap deductions for high-income earners. Is that something that’s acceptable?,” Pelosi responded, “No.”

    “Just to close loopholes is far too little money, if it’s — and it could be they have said they want it to be revenue-neutral,” Pelosi elaborated. “If it’s going to bring in revenue, the president has been very clear that the higher-income people have to pay their fair share.”

    Dana (292dcf)

  37. Everyone realizes the complicity of Congressional Republicans in our current fiscal catastrophe, right?

    Leviticus (1aca67)

  38. Who’s up for condescension from pizza deliverypersons?

    ‘I’m the one with the job old fart.’

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  39. If you mean that when the Republicans controlled Congress from 2003 to 2006 they spent like drunken Democrats, then yes.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  40. Everyone realizes that that if voters gave Obama a mandate by merely keeping him in place in his win last Tuesday as Dems claim, then voters likewise gave congressional Republicans a mandate by keeping them in place thtough their overwhelming win on Nov 6, as well. Right?

    elissa (9cad09)

  41. The really good news on Obamanable’s domestic takeover of a humilated military, mortally wounded energy sector and expansion of his food stamp paradise is the enforcement arm(s) of the Supreme Soviet is busy with Colombian and Lebanese hookers.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  42. Much like the made up debt ceiling, the made up fiscal cliff is just for show. We’re 16 trillion in debt (that we’re aware of). There is no coming back from this. The only thing to do is be ready for the collapse so we can rebuild it from the bricks that remain.

    “But I think maybe all that’s needed is a match and gasoline. Because I don’t think that anyone of them believes that there will be a reckoning.”

    Ghost (2d8874)

  43. only hope now is
    our fall will be cushioned by
    teh fattest lemmings

    Colonel Haiku (3bae39)

  44. Prayers for Mike Ditka, who suffered a minor stroke today.

    Dit…………………………………………………………..ka!

    Colonel Haiku (3bae39)

  45. Leviticus – you realize that taxing the wealthy and making them pay even more of their fair share won’t fix an effin thing, right?

    JD (185efa)

  46. We could go the other way, and suggest GIANT tax increases on everyone to pay for all this big government. A 10% national sales tax, for example. Nobody really wants swag they have to pay for.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  47. I agree with many of the expressed sentiments- take Obama at his word with what he has said in the past and in candid moments- he wants to remake the US into something he thinks is more fair, which is the Cloward-Pivening of America, both in domestic policy and in foreign affairs, and demagoging all along the way and playing with and manipulating political opponents who are playing by the rules of the past.

    This “fiscal cliff” is more of a “drop-off” in the long term scheme of things. Let it happen and make the dems own it. Let the states make the feds do Obamacare is the only way where ‘obstruction” is the reasonable thing to do.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  48. “If you mean that when the Republicans controlled Congress from 2003 to 2006 they spent like drunken Democrats, then yes.”

    - Milhouse

    That is what I mean, yes.

    Leviticus (1aca67)

  49. Everyone realizes the complicity of Congressional Republicans in our current fiscal catastrophe, right?

    At the time I said that Bush was nothing more than a Christian Liberal, so yes, I did.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  50. I agree with everything MD Philly said right up to the “..make the Dems own it” piece. How would that actually occur? How in heck with the largely clueless electorate and the agenda driven media and social media plying their anti R narrative will the Dems ever be made to “own it” on anything from here on out–either domestically or their foreign affairs disasters? Even if the R party totally ceased to exist, the upcoming crash and burn will still always be somebody else’s fault. Always. We couldn’t make them “own” Benghazi or Fast and Furious” (which even a few decades ago would have been immediately understood and viewed by most as major scandals and egregious administration failures). Why would going off the cliff, permanent recession and joblessness, and civil unrest be any different?

    elissa (9cad09)

  51. elissa- I completely agree with your disagreement regarding my post.

    What I didn’t make explicit is the hope that instead of putting energy into fighting the individual battles and losing, that if the energy is put into letting the dems have their way, taking away some of their arguments (yes, they lie, they don’t need reasons for arguments), and focusing on communicating rather then political policy battles, that maybe as things fall apart the people currently in power will get blamed.

    Yes, it is very sad and disillusioning to see things like Fast and Furious and Benghazi get largely ignored when they would have lead to the impeachment or resignation of a repub president. It is easy to think nothing makes a difference. But as long as we will do something, the something should focus on putting forward the truth, even if it is still putting on its shoes. At least if we lose I’d rather lose for the truth than lose for a lie.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  52. 50. ‘Compassionate Conservatism’ anyone? It won once.

    I guess that’s a no.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  53. So, if the business cycle is dead what are the Lefties hoping on to turn this cargo ship around?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  54. ==So, if the business cycle is dead what are the Lefties hoping on to turn this cargo ship around?==

    gg–I think you may be on the wrong website to be asking that question. :)

    I mean, really, the falsified and mis-stated jobs numbers can only go on for so long, one would think.

    elissa (9cad09)

  55. That is what I mean, yes.

    Then I hope you’re aware that the roots of the TEA Party movement go back to those years, and discontent with that spending was the main cause of the R base staying home in 2006, giving Congress to the Ds.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  56. If spending is cut to $8000 per capita, there would be a surplus.

    What is in the way of cutting spending to $8000 per capita?

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  57. Yes, it is very sad and disillusioning to see things like Fast and Furious and Benghazi get largely ignored when they would have lead to the impeachment or resignation of a repub president. It is easy to think nothing makes a difference. But as long as we will do something, the something should focus on putting forward the truth, even if it is still putting on its shoes. At least if we lose I’d rather lose for the truth than lose for a lie.

    http://ethicsalarms.com/2012/10/28/the-benghazi-express-its-hard-to-hide-an-ethics-train-wreck/

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  58. “Then I hope you’re aware that the roots of the TEA Party movement go back to those years, and discontent with that spending was the main cause of the R base staying home in 2006, giving Congress to the Ds.”

    - Milhouse

    Yes.

    Leviticus (1aca67)

  59. solving the budget problem is simple:

    eliminate Social Security, Medicare, the departments of Energy, Education, Housing & Urban Development and the EPA.

    and, if you still need revenue, turn the BATFE into a nationwide chain of convenience stores instead of a collection of thugs who smuggle guns to drug cartels.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  60. Everyone realizes the complicity of Congressional Republicans in our current fiscal catastrophe, right?

    Comment by Leviticus — 11/18/2012 @ 9:32 am

    Nooo. The GOP are totally guiltless and can do no wrong. Denounce yourself.

    The Emperor (08c3d2)

  61. The GOP Democratsv are totally guiltless and can do no wrong.

    That is the message of the broadcast network and print media.

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  62. Nooo. The GOP are totally guiltless and can do no wrong. Denounce yourself.

    It is not really healthy to argue with the imaginary voices in your head, Chimperor.

    JD (318f81)

  63. The Emperor, still not even trying to be an adult, are you?

    SPQR (768505)

  64. Leviticus, no I don’t “recognize” the complicity of Congressional Republicans. What I “recognize” is the refusal of Democrats to even do the most basic of their institutional responsibility and pass a budget.

    And what I “recognize” is that Obama has zero political skills. He can’t even successfully get his own party to accept his leadership, not least because he has none. And Obama’s own budget proposals fail to do anything about the fiscal situation and still got zero votes from his own party in the Senate.

    Zero leadership, zero responsible actions. That’s the Democrats.

    SPQR (768505)

  65. The car is in the ditch and on fire and Democrats just want to sit on the side of the road and drink Slurpees instead of calling the fire department.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  66. The Republican taxation position should be that the “progressiveness” of the tax rates cannot change in this deal. Either keep all the Bush rates, or go back to all the Clinton rates. For any tax level in between it must be expressed as “Clinton rates – x% reduction in taxes paid” or “Bush rates + x% surcharge in taxes paid”. No compromise on this principle.
    For Democrats who say it’s better/fairer to go back to Clinton rates, let them deal with the fact that Clinton’s rates were less progressive than Bush’s.

    Ken in Camarillo (645bed)

  67. It never ends. From The Hill:

    Groups backing an extension of unemployment benefits have launched a new round of lobbying to convince Congress to extend federal benefits to the long-term jobless.

    A coalition of advocates including the National Employment Law Project (NELP) held more than 40 meetings with lawmakers on Capitol Hill during the first week of the lame-duck session to make their pitch for a $30 billion extension of the program.

    The assorted labor union, civil rights and anti-poverty groups face a tough path to winning the extension at a time when lawmakers are looking for ways to reduce the budget deficit. Lawmakers started talks at the White House on Friday to prevent the nation from going over a so-called “fiscal cliff.”

    But the groups are hopeful they can win another extension, and received a shot of confidence this week when Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) said stimulus measures should be included in any deficit-reduction package.

    elissa (9cad09)

  68. I found this humorous over at PowerLine:
    Accusing the Democratic Party of buying votes with taxpayer money is like accusing Toyota of manufacturing automobiles.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  69. Loss of Bush tax cuts seems likely. Any deal to save them looks like scorched earth, and nothing doing with F&F or Benghazi.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  70. Senate Democrats insist that deficit package to avoid the fiscal cliff must include … more stimulus spending.

    That’s the mentality of Democrats.

    SPQR (768505)

  71. Senate Democrats insist that deficit package to avoid the fiscal cliff must include … more stimulus spending.

    That’s the mentality of Democrats.

    Then the House must insist that the package include … more tax cuts. Match them measure for measure. They’re doing this so they can compromise later without losing any ground, and perhaps even gain some; we should do the same. Demand even steeper tax cuts than the Bush-era ones, and then compromise on just reinstating those.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  72. Its Glenn Reynolds’ push for more taxes on industries dominated by Democrat donors like Hollywood that I am in favor of.

    SPQR (768505)

  73. Everyone realizes the complicity of Congressional Republicans in our current fiscal catastrophe, right?

    Comment by Leviticus — 11/18/2012 @

    The deficits from 2001 to 2006 were too high, and the Republicans accepted Obama’s demand for a debt ceiling increase more recently (due to threats to our soldier’s paychecks).

    I suppose that’s complicity in a way.

    I’d say their real failure is failing to nominate a decent presidential candidate. The GOP did not rise to the urgency of our situation. we instead went down that unelectable ‘electability’ road again.

    It’s like the party doesn’t take the deficit seriously. It’s like they think ‘head towards the cliff less slowly’ is a principle.

    Dustin (73fead)

  74. Its Glenn Reynolds’ push for more taxes on industries dominated by Democrat donors like Hollywood that I am in favor of.

    I’m pretty sure he’s not in favour of actually taxing the sh*t out of them, but only of proposing such taxes in order to evoke their squawks of outrage, which will highlight their hypocrisy. Even in Hollywood there would be some collateral damage from such tax increases, and in other possible targets (e.g. houses in Aspen) it would be more widespread. But there’s no collateral damage in merely talking about such things and challenging these people to come up with one good reason why they should be exempt from what they prescribe for everyone else.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  75. “I’d say their real failure is failing to nominate a decent presidential candidate. The GOP did not rise to the urgency of our situation. we instead went down that unelectable ‘electability’ road again.”

    Dustin – You are 100% correct. GOP and conservative voters should have just nominated an unelectable “unelectable” candidate and written off the presidential election from the start, but I’m preaching to the choir.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  76. Daley, that boat has already sailed, once again they selected a candidate, based on electability, and yet they weren;t

    narciso (ee31f1)

  77. Milhouse, I’m pretty sure he’s in favor of actually taxing them more.

    SPQR (768505)

  78. “Daley, that boat has already sailed, once again they selected a candidate, based on electability, and yet they weren;t”

    narciso – Who is “they”, Republican and conservative voters in the primary process?

    You are indeed right that the boat has already sailed and it is too late to change the Republican nominee or those in the running to be the nominee, which is why I remain truly impressed by the tremendous courage of principled activists who whine like b*tches, complaining about a past they cannot change.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  79. Comment by SPQR — 11/18/2012 @ 6:20 pm

    And Obama’s own budget proposals fail to do anything about the fiscal situation and still got zero votes from his own party in the Senate.

    The only reason Obama submitted a budget is that he was legally required to – required may be too strong a word – expected to. This wasn’t really anything he wanted, or anything he expected to happen. He expected maybe to negotiate something.

    Sammy Finkelman (69e89f)

  80. Comment by daleyrocks — 11/19/2012 @ 12:01 pm

    GOP and conservative voters should have just nominated an unelectable “unelectable” candidate and written off the presidential election from the start, but I’m preaching to the choir

    In this cycle they should have nominated either Gingrich or , either one of whom would have had much better chances. Not because they are more coservative, but because they have more sense)

    Neither would have thought it’s just the economy, stupid.

    Sammy Finkelman (69e89f)

  81. Neither would have let himself get pounded. Neither would have said half the stupid things Romney did. Neither would have left Benghazi alone, and that might have helped them pull it put, unless Obama corrected himself.. Both probably would have demolished Obama in a debate like the first debate, about the budget and taxes etc. They would also have been able to handle other subjects.

    Gingrich would have been better, if he could figure out an explanation of what he did for Freddie Mac. Obama would have had a harder time winning re-election.

    Sammy Finkelman (69e89f)

  82. [Obama] expected maybe to negotiate something.

    Utter BS, Sammy. The Democrats have an explicit strategy of not passing budgets.

    SPQR (768505)

  83. SPQR – Shhhhhhh. He’s on a roll.

    JD (185efa)

  84. Oh, yeah, JD … on a roll alright.

    SPQR (768505)

  85. Dustin – You are 100% correct. GOP and conservative voters should have just nominated an unelectable “unelectable” candidate and written off the presidential election from the start, but I’m preaching to the choir.

    I voted for Ron Paul in the primaries.

    Some people whop support Ron Paul claim the nomination was stolen.

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  86. “In this cycle they should have nominated either Gingrich or , either one of whom would have had much better chances.”

    Sammy – What evidence do you have that Gingrich “or either one of whom” would have had a better chance if they couldn’t even garner enough Republican or conservative votes to win the nomination? Seriously, put down your bong.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  87. “Some people whop support Ron Paul claim the nomination was stolen.”

    Michael Ejercito – I completely believe you. Is it a majority of his supporters?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  88. Michael Ejercito – I completely believe you. Is it a majority of his supporters?

    I do not know; no poll was taken.

    What evidence do you have that Gingrich “or either one of whom” would have had a better chance if they couldn’t even garner enough Republican or conservative votes to win the nomination?

    I am not surprised that Gingrich was not nominated; many Republicans saw too many ethical issues.

    What I do wonder is why Paul was not nominated; he clearly knew what he was talking about and he was not shy from telling and defending the truth.

    Michael Ejercito (2e0217)

  89. “What I do wonder is why Paul was not nominated; he clearly knew what he was talking about and he was not shy from telling and defending the truth.”

    Michael Ejercito – American voters are too sane to nominate that crazy old coot.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)


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