Chick-Fil-A Saga Continues: The Invisible Hand Smites Adam Smith
This “nice guy” decided to fight Chick-Fil-A’s “hate” by telling them how much he hates their “hate”:
As you can see, the employee responded to his barrage of vitriol very politely.
Now he has lost his job.
An executive at a medical manufacturing firm lost his job after a YouTube video of him verbally ambushing a young employee at a Tucson Chick-fil-A went viral.
Adam Smith, formerly Chief Financial Officer at Vante, stepped down after the video — which Smith shot and uploaded himself —caused embarrassment to the company.
. . . .
In the video, which runs 2 minutes, 21 seconds, Smith enters the drive-thru, explaining that he’s ordered a free cup of water. Once the employee hands him his cup, he lambastes her employer, calling Chick-fil-A “a hateful corporation” and “a horrible corporation with horrible values” that “gives money to hate groups.”
. . . .
“I don’t know how you live with yourself and work here,” Smith says to the employee, before calling himself “totally heterosexual” and saying there’s “not a gay in me” and “I just can’t stand the hate.” He also says he’s “I’m a nice guy, by the way.”
The more famous Adam Smith would have argued for the right of this Adam Smith to boycott Chick-Fil-A — and for Vante’s right to tell Smith to take a hike.
All hail the marketplace.
Today’s economics lesson: that cup of water was not free.
It was the most expensive cup of water Adam Smith will ever have.
Patterico (8b87cf) — 8/2/2012 @ 8:18 pmFunny. LOL @ douchebag
Rodney King's Spirit (aeda60) — 8/2/2012 @ 8:28 pmWell played, Mr. D.A.
You’re right…that is the most expensive free cup of water he’ll ever have.
So typical of a lefty…he wanted a freebie ! And then he insulted the person who gave him the freebie !
If he had any guts, he’d go confront the Muslim Brotherhood and ask them why they support the stoning of homosexuals.
I bet they’d give him a freebie !
Elephant Stone (65d289) — 8/2/2012 @ 8:30 pmI don’t think his rant was as bad as everone’s making it out to be. enough to get fired over? He didn’t curse her out, did he?
All of the reports say he was the former CFO … was that before of after he got fired? If he was replaced as CFO even before this video, maybe he has other issues?
john b (33d124) — 8/2/2012 @ 8:37 pmAnother self destructive jerk tries to be a bully and ruins himself. Pitiful.
Dustin (73fead) — 8/2/2012 @ 8:37 pmThere’s a blog that supposedly has found a copy of his resume (probably from LinkedIn before he deleted his account), and it suggests that he is a father to four boys. If that is really the case then I can’t help but feel bad for how this will affect all of them. It’s bad enough to have a dad who shows such horrible judgement, but to now have an out of work dad in this economy can’t be good.
On the plus side, he can probably get a job as an opinion writer for the Dog Trainer. Not sure if they pay for that sort of thing any longer, but there is always the opportunity for guest hosting on MSNBC too.
JVW (edec8d) — 8/2/2012 @ 8:38 pmSeriously? He’s abusive to fast food workers. How do you think he treats his subordinates? He treats people like crap if he can get away with it. I’d be shocked if he wasn’t making people miserable in the workplace.
If I saw an employee treat a waiter or fast food worker like that, I would no longer want them working for me. Because that person is self destructive, reckless, selfish, and ugly.
Doesn’t mean I would delight in his losing his job. That is a heavy price to pay, yet this isn’t just about justice. His former company doesn’t deserve to pay the price for this PR disaster.
Dustin (73fead) — 8/2/2012 @ 8:40 pmI’d also be concerned about what he’s teaching his children about how to behave.
Patterico (8b87cf) — 8/2/2012 @ 8:41 pm#4, I’d hope a CFO would have more pressing issues than trolling a Chick-Fil-A drive thru to give some order taker crap….. but maybe that is why he was fired. You gotta ask as a CEO and Board …. are you (CFO) that not busy you got time for a You Tube troll fest? Forget the content itself, sheesh, what a poor use of time for a CFO and good time to look for a replacement I’d say.
Rodney King's Spirit (aeda60) — 8/2/2012 @ 8:41 pmYou’re a good person. It is a sad situation. But there’s little doubt in my mind that this man can get a job in the food service industry if he applies to many opportunities. Then he can give rude people free cups of water and smile because he needs that job to make his living.
Dustin (73fead) — 8/2/2012 @ 8:42 pmThere was also quite a bit of isidcussion about Mr. CFO and his former company posted in comments near the end of the previous chicken thread.
elissa (1eb5db) — 8/2/2012 @ 8:44 pmThat would be “discussion”.
elissa (1eb5db) — 8/2/2012 @ 8:45 pmOh and the life lesson for his 4 boys .. don’t be a troll.
Rodney King's Spirit (aeda60) — 8/2/2012 @ 8:46 pmI don’t think his rant was as bad as everone’s making it out to be. enough to get fired over?
A lot of people are drawing an equivalence to Smith’s rant to the Chick-fil-A worker and Dan Cathy’s stated belief of the immorality of same-sex marriage. That comparison ignores some key differences. First, it certainly appears that Cathy stated his views in a calm and rational manner to someone who shared his beliefs. He did not aggressively confront someone like, for example, an assistant producer on the Rachel Maddow Show and berate her about the evils of her boss’s beliefs. What Smith did is equivalent to being angry at Barack Obama, so going down to the local post office and yelling at a postal clerk.
The other major difference between Cathy and Smith is that Cathy said what he said, and Chick-fil-A decided that keeping him was worth the potential loss of business if people objected to his beliefs. Vante apparently believes that the potential loss of business from customers who object to associating with a company that would employ Adam Smith is not worth keeping Smith on the payroll. It’s not censorship; it’s a rational economic decision that companies make. Very similar to why in some companies the CEO may be forgiven for having an affair with his secretary, but some mid-level manager gets fired for the same offense.
JVW (edec8d) — 8/2/2012 @ 8:51 pmI cannot stand it when people are jerks to food service workers – fast food workers or waiters/waitresses. They already work hard jobs for low pay. There are very few situations where you can significantly improve someone’s day by something so small as a smile and a pleasant thank-you – very few opportunities to do so much with so little. Interacting with food service workers is one of those rare opportunities. People that are mean to food service workers are insufferable f*cking bullies.
Leviticus (102f62) — 8/2/2012 @ 8:53 pmMr. Smith was a selfabsorbed, impudent, southern end of a northbound donkey! He’s lucky he is not facing harassment charges.
You notice he can’t name the hate groups Chick-Fil-A supports. Let’s start naming the hate groups Mr. Smith supports. !. The Democrat party. 2. Daily Kos. 3. Media Matters. 4. Think Progress. Your turn people.
PCD (d3f1b7) — 8/2/2012 @ 8:54 pmTo the best of my knowledge (and if I’m mistaken I’m sure someone will post the link to correct me) Dan Cathy didn’t say anything about the immorality of anything. He didn’t condemn anything. He didn’t say a negative word. All he said was that he believes in what his religion teaches. And that is what unleashed this entire furor!
People often say, be positive, say what you believe, don’t knock someone else’s beliefs. Well, that’s what Cathy did.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 8/2/2012 @ 8:58 pmSmith’s new job could be at http://www.glaad.org
Rodney King's Spirit (aeda60) — 8/2/2012 @ 9:00 pmI am looking forward to a statement from the University of Arizona, since he is supposed to be a teacher/professor there. Perhaps he will be tenured soon than he expected.
PatAZ (cbbf6d) — 8/2/2012 @ 9:03 pmUm, it helps that Chick-Fil-A is owned by Cathy’s father…
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 8/2/2012 @ 9:04 pmNow Mr. Smith’s children will forever be able to see their father’s most inglorious moment. Good for him.
At least he felt “purposeful”.
Dana (292dcf) — 8/2/2012 @ 9:09 pmMilhouse, here is the write-up on what Cathy said. They money quote:
I certainly read that as expressing the idea that same-sex marriage is immoral. Otherwise, why would God care?
JVW (edec8d) — 8/2/2012 @ 9:18 pmAnyone taking bets on the level of media coverage grated to the half dozen people protesting tomorrow at any local area CFA?
I am betting it is the lead story on both the national and local news, and at least a major mention on the front page, above the fold, in the Times, USA Today, and WSJ
MunDane (861704) — 8/2/2012 @ 9:23 pm> I cannot stand it when people are jerks to food service workers – fast food workers or waiters/waitresses. They already work hard jobs for low pay. There are very few situations where you can significantly improve someone’s day by something so small as a smile and a pleasant thank-you – very few opportunities to do so much with so little. Interacting with food service workers is one of those rare opportunities. People that are mean to food service workers are insufferable f*cking bullies.
Amen.
One of my major problems with my third stepfather was that he was the sort to be mean to line retail workers, whenever he thought he could get something out of it. I hated it then and I still hate it now. 🙂
aphrael (24797a) — 8/2/2012 @ 9:24 pmOh and that Chicago area CFA will be swamped for 20 minutes of camera time for the nightly news and then the protesters will go inside and eat.
MunDane (861704) — 8/2/2012 @ 9:24 pmI must say I really admire the young woman’s grace under pressure. Clearly she is upset and on the verge of tears, yet remains polite and unwavering in that. Nice example for one so young.
Dana (292dcf) — 8/2/2012 @ 9:28 pm____________________________________________
before calling himself “totally heterosexual” and saying there’s “not a gay in me” and “I just can’t stand the hate.”
Methinks he doth protest too much. Or something like that.
Why he’d take the issue so personally and emotionally that he’d go and grandstand in front of a low-on-the-totem-pole employee suggests maybe someone close to him is gay or bisexual. Maybe his father or mother swings both ways? Maybe his brother or sister is gay? Maybe a loyal elementary- or high-school buddy of his confided in him not long ago about his sexual preferences?
Actually, Smith is likely just another phony-baloney liberal, so sanctimonious about his faux compassion and tolerance. The very fact he insists there’s “not a gay in me” (sidestepping the snicker-inducing double entendre of that comment) comes off as way too similar to those who feel they must go out of their way and proclaim “some of my best friends are black!”
The very fact he has to also say “I’m a nice guy” hints at his probably knowing that deepdown he’s no more humane and tolerant than the average person, or truly more humane and tolerant than his political opposites.
Mark (70c729) — 8/2/2012 @ 9:31 pm#4 – The press release stated: “…we also expect our company officers to behave in a manner commensurate with their position and in a respectful fashion that conveys these values of civility with others.” While it did describe Vante as former, I think they meant because he was fired and he was fired because of the sentence I quoted.
Link: http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/vante-of-tucson-az-regrets-actions-of-former-cfo-1686870.htm
Also, his LinkedIn (which has since been removed, but can still be seen in cache) stated that he worked there from 2/2010-present.
#6 – He had a resume posted at the university he lectured at. That resume has since been removed and any mention of him (even his name on the board he was on) has also been removed. AU issued a statement today saying that Smith’s lecturing duties ended in May: http://uanews.org/story/ua-statement-regarding-former-adjunct-lecturer-adam-smith
ratsurf (f5aad4) — 8/2/2012 @ 9:39 pmThe very fact he has to also say “I’m a nice guy” hints at his probably knowing that deepdown he’s no more humane and tolerant than the average person, or truly more humane and tolerant than his political opposites.
Indeed. He probably believes that he has a “right” and a “duty” to act like an a-hole since he is on the side of tolerance and inclusion, or whatever. One of my biggest pet peeves about “activists” is that it so often seems to be much more about bringing attention to themselves than it is about bringing attention to their cause.
JVW (edec8d) — 8/2/2012 @ 9:39 pmhe’s a douche but “barrage of vitriol” kind of overstates it
firing him for his speech is not a lot different than trying to shut down a restaurant really – he didn’t say any no-no words he was just very bad at what he was doing
I think he probably watches way too much Daily Show and thought he could play in that sandbox
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 8/2/2012 @ 9:54 pmMr. Smith went out of his way to be a star in his own little video. Apparently his company’s name and address and his position in the company were somehow tacked on to the video.
So A–he’s embarassed the company.
B–He’s demonstrated a willingness to abuse
his “subordinates”
C. Even if this was on his own time (I mean small boys have been known to amuse themselves by pulling the wings off flys) he chose to go public with it. I mean some guys diddle their boss’s wife, but they don’t go public with that sort of amusement.
I understand that he’s been canned from his company and that his position at U of A is shaky.
Ignorance can be cured—but stupid–and this action of his was stupid–is forever. If I was CEO and concluded that my CFO or one of my vice presidents could pull a stunt like that—-well there’s that old country song, “Drop kick me Jesus through the goalposts of Life”. I’m not Jesus, but I’d boot this clown’s nasty backside out the door–and maybe over the goalposts if I had enough leg strength.
Successful companies weed the jerks out early and often. Better never to hire them–but if you make a mistake (and this clown had been with Vante for two years, hiring on in 20120 according to his resume) then you weed him out when you find him out. And this was a “find him out” moment big time.
Comanche Voter (29e1a6) — 8/2/2012 @ 9:55 pmLook, saying that you’re a Xian implies that Jews and Moslems and Hindus and Sikhs and Buddhists are all wrong. But it doesn’t say so; it’s a positive statement, not a negative one. And it’s hardly earth-shattering to say that God has told us His opinion and doesn’t like it when we contradict Him, without specifying who is contradicting Him or in what way. As I see it he was expressing his views, which are utterly mainstream, in as nice a way as possible.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 8/2/2012 @ 9:57 pmI have a 22 year old daughter that works at Taco Bell while she is going to CalState LA to get her BA. Sometimes, she comes home from working the drive through window and literally screams at my wife and I (well doesn’t scream AT us, just screams as she talks to us) because of the rude, insensitive, heartless assholes she deals with every day who seem to think that just because they are spending $3 at the Taco Bell, my daughter is their verbal and emotional punching bag.
So, when I saw this fine young lady continue to deal with this smug, self-righteous asshole in a professional and courteous manner, despite the fact that she was clearly fighting back tears there at the end, I felt a great deal of admiration for her.
And I thought about if it had been MY daughter that human slimeball had abused that way. I probably would have hunted him down and shot him through the kneecaps.
So, no, I don’t have any tears for Mr. Self-Righteous. Fuck him.
David, infamous sockpuppet (df4742) — 8/2/2012 @ 9:58 pmSo basically he berates a minimum wage worker who doesn’t have any particular ideological authority on corporate policy? Repeatedly makes accusations of hate and anti-gay bias?
And then concludes by assuring the people watching the video that he’s straight and not at all gay?
O.o
memomachine (98eca8) — 8/2/2012 @ 9:58 pm@ Milhouse
“Xian”
It’s spelled “Christian”. Xian is a city in China.
memomachine (98eca8) — 8/2/2012 @ 9:59 pmThe problem I have with Mr. Smith’s rant is that it is inherently unfair. The woman at the window obviously can not respond with what she might wish to day because her rhetorical hands are tied by being a customer service representative of her employer. Mr. Smith, on the other hand, can say whatever he wants.
Secondly, the woman at the window was not responsible for Mr. Cathy’s remarks so giving her an earful doesn’t do any good. It is as if you yelled at me so I go find someone who works at your company and give them lip about it.
Thirdly, that store is most likely not even owned by Mr. Cathy. Most likely it is a franchise store that is owned by a local Tucson business person. Mr. Cathy’s personal opinions do not represent the personal opinions of the owner of that store and the employer of that woman at the window. The owner might share Mr. Cathy’s opinions or might not.
What it *appears* to me is that Mr. Smith had planned to appear like the hero if the day by pulling the chain of a Chick-Fil-A employee and posting on the Internet in the hopes he would become a celebrity. It backfired.
As Iowahawk tweeted yesterday: “The problem with liberals is they think liberalism is popular.” and I think Mr. Smith is guilty of that. He thought he would be the darling of YouTube today. Things didn’t work out exactly as he had planned, is my guess. I get this notion from how he is talking to the camera at the start. His voice inflection and facial expressions tell me he thinks he is on a righteous mission and he was apparently in a great big hurry to post it to the Internet and share his deed. He must have also promoted it somewhere because the whole freaking world appeared to find out about it pretty quickly. He was bragging it around is what it seems like.
Lesson: The way things seem between one’s own ears isn’t the way things might seem to the rest of the world.
crosspatch (6adcc9) — 8/2/2012 @ 10:05 pmYup. Bully.
Patterico (8b87cf) — 8/2/2012 @ 10:09 pmI just wonder how many others did this but didn’t have a camera recording it. Those are the real bullies. This guy was trying to make himself famous.
crosspatch (6adcc9) — 8/2/2012 @ 10:26 pmfiring him for his speech is not a lot different than trying to shut down a restaurant really – he didn’t say any no-no words he was just very bad at what he was doing
Comment by happyfeet — 8/2/2012 @ 9:54 pm
He wasn’t fired for his speech. He was fired for his bullying behavior that reflects poorly on his employer.
aunursa (7014a8) — 8/2/2012 @ 10:32 pmi would’ve given him the chance to apologize in one of them youtube videos all the kids are watching
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 8/2/2012 @ 10:34 pm@ crosspatch,
Absolutely.
Now let’s consider how Mr. Smith would react if he stumbled upon a You Tube video of one of his four children working at a fast food joined being cornered by a conservative customer lecturing him about the evils of the corporation he (the kid) worked for and the wrongheadedness of the leftys and their hatred expressed toward people who believe in a biblical view of marriage. Given what we’ve seen and now *know* about the kind of man he is, do you think he would take this with a smile and simply smile and say, no big deal?
Me neither.
Dana (292dcf) — 8/2/2012 @ 10:35 pmstupid is supposed to be painful: he was stupid in public and now it’s causing him pain.
i have zero problem with this.
redc1c4 (403dff) — 8/2/2012 @ 10:35 pmthere’s the chance though that this was just the perfect excuse to fire a dickhead what nobody liked anyway
they sure didn’t deliberate very long did they
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 8/2/2012 @ 10:36 pmIf he had been a public employee, his union probably would have prevented him from being let go. Unfortunately for him, he worked for a private company.
Ironic.
Dana (292dcf) — 8/2/2012 @ 10:38 pmX is a standard abbreviation for Christ.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 8/2/2012 @ 10:40 pm39.i would’ve given him the chance to apologize in one of them youtube videos all the kids are watching
Comment by happyfeet — 8/2/2012 @ 10:34 pm
Nothing’s stopping him from offering an apology. It won’t save his job, but it might save a remnant of his humanity.
aunursa (7014a8) — 8/2/2012 @ 10:41 pmthis is very true about the nothing stopping him
I just live in such dread of people I know losing their jobs I think it sorta makes it hard to feel glad about this guy losing his
to me it just seems really clear that his intention was to do something very clever and messagey, and I think he for reals was standing up for what he believed in, just in an inappropriate way
the free water thing was supposed to be the crux of it I think, but he lost the plot
he really didn’t think this through at all
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 8/2/2012 @ 10:46 pm“stupid is supposed to be painful”
Comment of the year so far, right there.
crosspatch (6adcc9) — 8/2/2012 @ 10:47 pm“Look, saying that you’re a Xian implies that Jews and Moslems and Hindus and Sikhs and Buddhists are all wrong.”
Milhouse – Look, you’re better off talking about yourself and your own faith than what members of another faith imply when they define themselves. Apart from reestablishing your religious bigotry, what do Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and Buddhists have to do with Mr. Cathy’s comments in the first place anyway. Requiring others to share in your right/wrong view of the beliefs of other religions rather than just viewing them as different is something you need to overcome.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/2/2012 @ 10:57 pmI agree, happyfeet. I don’t feel at all glad about him losing his jobs, especially as there are children to feed and a rent/mortgage payment to make. However, those (children) are the very reason parents are supposed to think through things and essentially weigh out any decision, no matter how small, and asses how it will impact one’s family. That’s what smart parents do. They are not focused on themselves and consumed by their own self-righteous indignation and arrogant stances but rather the continual well being of those they are responsible for.
Dana (292dcf) — 8/2/2012 @ 11:00 pmthat’s very true about how his priorities got out of whack – but that could also be a measure of how passionately he feels about this issue
the whole thing about how it’s the best what lack all conviction while it’s the worst what are full of passionate intensity always seemed a little arbitrary to me
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 8/2/2012 @ 11:03 pmI just live in such dread of people I know losing their jobs I think it sorta makes it hard to feel glad about this guy losing his
Comment by happyfeet — 8/2/2012 @ 10:46 pm
I’m not glad about him losing his job any more than I am glad when a convicted murderer is executed.
But what he did was reprehensible. And he did it with malice of forethought (see the beginning of the video.) So while I’m not glad, I’m not sorry for him, either.
aunursa (7014a8) — 8/2/2012 @ 11:07 pmHe was blinded by his own passion. I understand too that as parents our priorities aren’t always in order. However, what gave him away (to me), was the fact that he chose to videotape this. Star of his own show. He did not care about the girl, he did not know the age of the girl, and yet he chose her to pay the price. And in spite of her obvious discomfort and upset, he continued to lecture. But worst of all, he violated her privacy and videotape her. Again, what if sh were a minor? Did he as a parent, stop for a sec to consider how her parents might feel about that? This was not a man thinking about his cause, or protecting people from hate, or enlightening the masses to the injustice of it all, or even keeping watch over the cultural flux of our country. No, this was a man who thought only of himself. Nothing else. This was all about him. And in my book, he was a creep who took advantage of a vulnerable girl.
Dana (292dcf) — 8/2/2012 @ 11:13 pmAnd in my book, he was a creep who took advantage of a vulnerable girl.
And why? Because he could. Plain and simple: because he could.
Dana (292dcf) — 8/2/2012 @ 11:13 pmit’s not really clear that the girl paid any particular price everybody loves her
she’s like the gabby douglas of sammiches
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 8/2/2012 @ 11:15 pmDid I say they had something to do with it? Why don’t you try reading the thread. I claimed that Cathy didn’t say anything negative about anybody or anything; he just said what he believed. JVW countered that by doing so he implied that the opposite view was wrong. My reply to JVW is that saying anything implies that incompatible statements are wrong, but that’s not the same as saying so. Xianity, Judaism, Islam, Sikhism and Buddhism all make mutually incompatible claims about ultimate truths; to assert the truth of any one of them is to imply the falsity of the others. But even if one is so hyper-sensitive to criticism as to feel insulted when someone says ones beliefs are wrong, one has no business feeling insulted when someone merely says that some incompatible belief is right. To do so is to assert a tyranny over the entire world, to insist that the entire world must positively agree with one on everything or be silent, or else one will be deeply insulted and hold ones breath and cry and it will all be their fault so there.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 8/2/2012 @ 11:24 pmI made great efforts to lampoon the guy, but some of this is a bit overblown. The issue is that it was lame, not that it was horrible.
Random (edf1d2) — 8/2/2012 @ 11:44 pmAgain, Milhouse, I think this statement does way more than just “imply” that same-sex marriage is wrong:
How explicit must he be for your tastes? From the context of this quote, I don’t think Cathy intends “God’s judgement” to be something that we are supposed to be looking forward to.
And no matter what might be floating about in popular culture, plenty of Christians believe that using “X” as an abbreviation for “Christ” is as crass as referring to Muslims as “Mos” or “Muzzies.” Yes, I know it relates to the Greek letter chi and all of that, but there are plenty who find it offensive.
JVW (edec8d) — 8/2/2012 @ 11:50 pm“Why don’t you try reading the thread. I claimed that Cathy didn’t say anything negative about anybody or anything; he just said what he believed.”
Milhouse – I did read the thread and you keep conspicuously failing to mention that Cathy was specifically talking about Christian views of marriage, which gives his comments considerably more context than your sophistry implies.
Xianity, Judaism, Islam, Sikhism and Buddhism all make mutually incompatible claims about ultimate truths
Cathy’s comments that JVW excerpted were about marriage, not ultimate truth. Didn’t you read them? Cathy’s statements were also not about comparative religion so your BS makes no sense.
My reply to JVW is that saying anything implies that incompatible statements are wrong, but that’s not the same as saying so.
Pure 100% sophistry. Who cares.
You are just back at the same old place you usually arrive at, lecturing people on if they claim a certain faith what they must believe. How much money do you earn as a psychic?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:00 amMilhouse – Did you read my comment. You dodged the part about other religions being wrong rather than different.
You have previously acknowledged here the belief you expressed above about Judaism holding views of ultimate truths and other doctrine which lead you to believe other religions to be wrong and expressed your disappointment in having to choose from political candidates belonging to “wrong” religions. I think that is a bigoted perspective and believe religions should be viewed as different instead of wrong. You think in absolutes.
I can vi
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:11 amJVW, he didn’t even mention same-sex marriage. He was advocating his view of marriage, not condemning any specific other view. Of course advocating his view implies the negation of all incompatible views, but there is a vast gulf between that and “hate speech”, which must at a bare minimum involve actual criticism of the target of the supposed “hate”.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:11 am“JVW, he didn’t even mention same-sex marriage. He was advocating his view of marriage, not condemning any specific other view.”
Milhouse – More sophistry? Read his words again. What aspect of marriage do you think he was referring to when he was talking about the nation disagreeing with God about marriage? Is there a doubt in your mind?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:18 amHe deserved to get fired if only for his insufferable smugness.
Gazzer (007b5b) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:21 amEach of the religions I listed makes claims incompatible with each of the others. If one of them is right then all the others must be wrong. Either the covenant made at Sinai can be abrogated or it cannot. Either Jesus is God or he isn’t. Mohammed was either a prophet or a madman. Etc. These are all claims about objective truth, not feelings, so no more than one of them can be true.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:22 amAgain you resort to the implication of his words; but merely saying “I am a Christian” also implies that all views incompatible with Xianity are wrong. Which is as much as to say that merely identifying as a Xian is hateful and unacceptable and cause for outrage. What have we come to, when in a country with a solid Xian majority, it can be unacceptable to be a Xian? It’s inconceivable.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:26 amThis is getting tiring, Milhouse, but here is your original statement:
We disagree on whether invoking God’s judgement on behavior is another way of suggesting it is immoral. I officially retire from all attempts to convince you that it is. Like daleyrocks, I find more than a bit of sophistry in your arguments, especially when you suddenly start invoking the bogeyman of “hate speech” which is an accusation that I can’t see that anyone on this thread made concerning Mr. Cathy’s quote.
JVW (edec8d) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:32 amfor Milhouse, “hate speech” is pretty much anything he disagrees with, or, even worse, arguments and logic he can’t refute with his usual blather.
he hates when that happens, hence the term “hate speech”. it’s what he uses when he can’t say “racist”.
redc1c4 (403dff) — 8/3/2012 @ 1:43 am@ #4
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/executive-loses-job-after-chick-fil-a-rant-video-goes/article_3f4b902f-2db4-52ed-a7a8-c62c5ea3699c.html
He is also an adjunct lecturer at U of Arizona in economics, perhaps he still will have a gig in the hallowed halls of academia /snark
Angelo (672fb3) — 8/3/2012 @ 4:45 amSmith is so out of bounds that Alan Rickman wouldn’t even play Smith in a movie or TV.
PCD (d3f1b7) — 8/3/2012 @ 4:50 amAs has been pointed out, this was premeditated. This isn’t about a guy who has had a bad day and got lousy service, hence snapping. He smugly filmed it; built it up prepping his audience before ambushing the poor girl. IMHO, its not passion, its not standing up for beliefs; it was an adolescent stunt that he perceived would gain him brownie points with his lefty buddies and they’d giggle about it. Oops
Angelo (672fb3) — 8/3/2012 @ 5:01 amThis imbecile’s venom was just so misplaced and misguided. If Smith objects to the personal viewpoints of the company CEO, venting his anger on a low-level employee who is just working a job and has nothing to do with anything is just abusive bullying. The young lady handled the abuse with calm and aplomb. Take a bow, young lady. You displayed dignity and courtesy under extreme duress. And you’re made of very tough stuff.
Guy Jones (851e14) — 8/3/2012 @ 5:07 amI’m not happy he got fired because he was fired. But, actions have consequences. The first rule of almost any job is that you don’t make your employer look bad, and in today’s hyper-political world, being a complete jerk to total strangers reflects poorly on an organization, especially when it is over political differences. His employers took action they felt needed to protect their brand. Lesson? Don’t be a dick.
Matt S. (ab8324) — 8/3/2012 @ 5:31 amI have run into “Adam Smith” many, many times in life. Why is it so often that righteous liberals believe it is the things that they believe about politics that make them a good person, rather than the way they behave?
This douchenozzle is exhibit A.
CausticConservative (b29599) — 8/3/2012 @ 5:40 amThis jackas defined himself when he asked the girl why she would want to work in a place like Chi-Fil-a. He will now know the answer when he tries to pay the mortgage or rent, pay at the grocery checkout, buy schools supplies for his kids ….
nk (875f57) — 8/3/2012 @ 6:00 amAnd Milhouse is right. Any sincerely held religious belief is by definition intolerant and exclusive of other religious beliefs. Monotheistic religions, historically, more so.
nk (875f57) — 8/3/2012 @ 6:03 amThe minute he blurted out that he is a “nice guy, by the way” was the moment of truth. It was the fork in the road. Something he saw in her face or felt deep within himself was urgently whispering to him that at that moment he was not being a nice guy at all. So, when he picked up on that he could have passed on through the drive in, enjoyed his free water, felt he had made a point, maybe shown his video to a friend or two, gone home to his family, and returned to his job the next day. But he did not listen to his own intuition. Instead, he ignored it and posted clear evidence of his poor judgment and bullying on Youtube.
I don’t feel joy that he was fired, but as a practical matter after his very public star turn his former company had no choice about what they must do to protect themselves and their stockholders from a CFO who demonstrates such bad judgment and poor decision making.
elissa (2af611) — 8/3/2012 @ 6:13 amAdam Smith is free to believe whatever he wants about gay marriage in general or the beliefs of ChickFilA’s owners in particular. The reason people reacted so strongly to his rant was HOW he chose to express his opinions. He chose someone who has no say in the running of ChickFilA, someone whose beliefs are completely unknown to him, someone working hard for a small salary doing a generally thankless and unpleasant job. Basically, he picked on who he assumed was the weakest target and least likely to fight back. People don’t like to see bullies in any case, and particularly don’t like to see wealthy people abusing the little guy (or girl, in this case).
radar (257ad5) — 8/3/2012 @ 6:37 amVery happy to see this little incident highlighted in its own post. And am having far too much fun reading this comment thread; you guys are great.
…However, what gave him away (to me), was the fact that he chose to videotape this. Star of his own show. He did not care about the girl, he did not know the age of the girl, and yet he chose her to pay the price. And in spite of her obvious discomfort and upset, he continued to lecture. But worst of all, he violated her privacy and videotape her. Again, what if sh were a minor? Did he as a parent, stop for a sec to consider how her parents might feel about that? This was not a man thinking about his cause, or protecting people from hate, or enlightening the masses to the injustice of it all, or even keeping watch over the cultural flux of our country. No, this was a man who thought only of himself. Nothing else. This was all about him. And in my book, he was a creep who took advantage of a vulnerable girl.
Comment by Dana — 8/2/2012 @ 11:13 pm
And this is why I am not sorry this man lost his job. The number of bad decisions this man made in one day, and the lack of character and fitness to supervise others it displayed in spades. is pretty unlikely to have been a one time lapse in judgement.
Would wager a large amount of money that, as happyfeet implied, his employers were looking for a reason to cut him loose already, and most likely wouldn’t have done it so quickly, for legal reasons, unless they already had “a file” on this guy. Does anyone doubt he bullied people around him whenever he thought he’d get away with it?
no one you know (325a59) — 8/3/2012 @ 6:37 am“#6 – He had a resume posted at the university he lectured at. That resume has since been removed and any mention of him (even his name on the board he was on) has also been removed. AU issued a statement today saying that Smith’s lecturing duties ended in May: http://uanews.org/story/ua-statement-regarding-former-adjunct-lecturer-adam-smith”
The U of Arizona is a center of left wing orthodoxy so the fact that they wanted to make clear he was not associated means they saw the bad vibes he had created. Notice the emphasis on “Adjunct non-tenure” in the statement. My daughter is a student there and they had a big Obama rally after the Gabby Giffords shooting. The campus was filled with Obama campaign videos on big flat screens during the 2008 election. I wonder if they will be so open about politics this fall.
She also is a waitress although in an upscale restaurant in Tucson. If anybody pulled that on her, he would be talking to a large male staff member quickly.
Mike K (326cba) — 8/3/2012 @ 6:41 amFrom the Weekly Standard http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/mainstream-media-blacks-out-chick-fil-story_649234.html:
“There’s no mention of Chick-fil-A on the front pages of the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, the Chicago Tribune, the Los Angeles Times, the South Florida Sun-Sentinel, and the Boston Globe. The front pages of USA Today, the Dallas Morning News, and the Houston Chronicle have small headlines about the restaurant, while Chick-fil-A’s hometown paper, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, fits in a story below the fold under the heading, “Chick-fil-A Controversy.” And the front pages of major news websites are quiet in their coverage as well.”
But what I have heard also ignores what I believe is the reason for the push back. And that is that the mayors of three big cities have said they will prevent Chick-fil-A from operating in their cities.
Boycotting by consumers is fine. But the government has no business punishing a business with which they have political differences. See Jonah Goldberg’s Liberal Fascism.
We have a political system run by Democrats that sees nothing wrong with punishing their enemies.
AZ Bob (1c9631) — 8/3/2012 @ 7:09 amMaybe today a lot of people will go to that Chick-fil-A just so they can give her a tip, and she will get rich and go on vacation (kind of like the bus monitor).
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 8/3/2012 @ 7:15 amParaphrasing a quote: “Don’t judge a man based on how he treats his peers. Judge him based on how he treats the waiter.”
K_P_Brown (88bd1c) — 8/3/2012 @ 7:16 amI think that Mr. Smith didn’t actually get the video he expected. He probably expected that the girl would respond with some sort of anti-gay tirade or call him names. He is clearly trying to provoke her into some sort of embarrassing display, and when his patter didn’t work, he ratcheted it up a notch with the “How can you live with yourself” stuff.
She was unflappable and polite even when provoked, so really, he didn’t get what he wanted. He’d armored himself in expectation of anti-gay slurs and didn’t get any.
That’s why he felt it necessary at the end to assert his heterosexuality: he had expected to be called ‘gay’ and it didn’t happen. It was in his script, so he said it.
I agree with others in that I’m sorry for his family; and it saddens me that there are people who think this is the right way to behave.
Pious Agnostic (7c3d5b) — 8/3/2012 @ 7:18 amIsn’t it funny that Rahm Emanuel worked for Obama when he had the saAme view on gay marriage as the head of Chick-fil-A.
AZ Bob (1c9631) — 8/3/2012 @ 7:24 am==.I think that Mr. Smith didn’t actually get the video he expected==
I believe this is correct. So again, this begs the question of why he decided to post it on You tube at all. Many scripts are written, and TV pilots and movies shot that are never released to the public– because upon review someone recognizes them as not being viable.
elissa (2af611) — 8/3/2012 @ 7:30 amI think it’s pretty darn nice for Chick-Fil-A to give free 24 oz. cold waters in the drive-in lane, in Tucson, in August, BTW.
On the other hand, this particular guy might want to follow W.C. Fields’s advice. 😉
nk (875f57) — 8/3/2012 @ 7:36 amThe firing was the right thing to do with this and other politically deranged bullies, but it is a sad thing to see. I’m not sorry it happened either, but I did say a prayer that this guy learns his lesson. I think a stint in the food service industry would be the perfect way for that prayer to be answered.
Pious is probably right now that I think about it. Smith wanted to ambush this woman, working hard at her job, push her into saying something foolish, and then humiliate her and harm her life (likely trying to get her fired) with this video exposure.
The woman asked not to be interviewed. She said she wasn’t comfortable at the beginning. Smith probably thought this meant he was about to get something really damaging out of her.
This isn’t that different from some of the trolling I’ve seen. Especially some of these anonymous tweeters, who seek to provoke named people into outraged reactions. Both sides lose credibility, but that only means something for the named target. It’s sad that anyone would actually want to leave this impact on the world. It’s just politics, losers.
Dustin (73fead) — 8/3/2012 @ 7:37 amNo kidding. That’s quite nice.
Dustin (73fead) — 8/3/2012 @ 7:38 amI dunno. That movie I saw sure wasn’t “Christ Christ Christ”, despite the rating. Oh, sure, the… actors?… said “oh God” a few times, but…
Rob Crawford (c55962) — 8/3/2012 @ 7:41 amComment by Dustin — 8/3/2012 @ 7:37 am
You make several excellent points, Dustin; maybe I should clarify. Normally it’s a sad thing to see anyone lose their livelihood over a one time incident. I guess the best way to explain briefly is that I think there were enough indicators in the actions themselves (Dana and others worded it better above than I will) that this was a character issue, not a one time loss of control. Someone of his employment stature (CFO within five years?)and intelligence really should know better than to plan in advance to bully a random low level employee who can’t realistically fight back, and as you imply yourself, didn’t have time to prepare for the encounter and might well have lost her job herself if her unprepared reaction had been less stellar than it was.
Not only that, but her (unprepared) words show that she was thinking not only of herself but of her company. He (as Dana put so well) was thinking only of himself.
Which is why IMO she deserves a promotion, and he deserves a loss in job. Maybe he’ll have time to think about how to treat future subordinates, if he ever has any, better. I hope so.
no one you know (325a59) — 8/3/2012 @ 7:58 am> And that is that the mayors of three big cities have said they will prevent Chick-fil-A from operating in their cities.
nitpick: the person saying this in NYC isn’t the Mayor, although she’s likely to be the Mayor after next year’s election.
aphrael (24797a) — 8/3/2012 @ 8:04 amThis story could have been tye’s one moment to shine–to redeem himself by showing that he retains a modicum of decency and humanity and common sense. He failed.
elissa (2af611) — 8/3/2012 @ 8:28 am“And Milhouse is right. Any sincerely held religious belief is by definition intolerant and exclusive of other religious beliefs.”
nk – I try to speak for myself rather than a religion as a whole or religions in which I do not participate unlike Milhouse in this thread.
I agree with you that Milhouse is intolerant, but there is ample evidence that others do not hold the same views.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/3/2012 @ 8:37 amRachel had such a beautiful smile on her face as he drove up to the window. It makes me sick how he degraded her. If I were wealthy, I would pay for her college education, if she so chose. I hope she at least gets a raise.
PatAZ (cbbf6d) — 8/3/2012 @ 8:44 amDid Smith get fired over this incident – probably not. Was he fired – yes. (at the CFO level you are asked to resign – same thing as getting fired).
If his day to day work behavior is consistent with his stunt at Chick fillet, then most likely his other behavior had already put him on thin ice. This was just the tipping point.
Joe (a00dc1) — 8/3/2012 @ 9:13 amIn fact, apparently the mayor of NYC has come out in defense of chic-fil-a.
aphrael (24797a) — 8/3/2012 @ 9:29 am“Did Smith get fired over this incident – probably not.”
Joe – Except that the company press release sure reads like it was as it disassociates itself from what it describes as his unacceptable behavior and tries to make the point that not all its employees are a-holes like that.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/3/2012 @ 10:12 am@44…
X is a standard abbreviation for Christ.
Hmmm. I’d like a cite for that, please.
Andy (b63f79) — 8/3/2012 @ 11:36 amThe porn spam comment is more coherent that tye’s comment.
SPQR (26706b) — 8/3/2012 @ 11:39 am____________________________________________
If his day to day work behavior is consistent with his stunt at Chick fillet, then most likely his other behavior had already put him on thin ice. This was just the tipping point.
I tend to be leery of people whose ideology is very dogmatic and in-your-face, right or left. But in terms of those who are that way but who are also very liberal, I’m already that much more suspicious of them because of doubts I have about the discernment (or common sense) and honesty they’ll bring to various situations, including those in the workplace.
Yea, I know there are scroungy, dishonest conservatives and wonderful, honest liberals, but all things considered, I do think the odds are greater that such characteristics won’t be found, or won’t be as well-anchored, in people on the left versus those on the right.
Mark (70c729) — 8/3/2012 @ 11:48 amX is a standard abbreviation for Christ.
Hmmm. I’d like a cite for that, please.
Comment by Andy — 8/3/2012 @ 11:36 am
Actually it’s not exactly “standard” these days, not in the US, but there is correct historical precedent for it.
However, and this is more to the point, I believe, many Christians (including me) find it offensive (even at the Snopes link it references this offense), well..I’ll speak for myself, probably because Greek isn’t common in modern day America and it feels dismissive, as if there weren’t even enough respect to spell out the full name we call ourselves, in honor of Christ.
no one you know (325a59) — 8/3/2012 @ 11:49 am“However, and this is more to the point, I believe, many Christians (including me) find it offensive”
noyk – On the internet these days it seems to be used most often in a derisive manner to mock those holding religious beliefs or fearful of a coming right wing Christian theocracy.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:01 pm“or used by those fearful”
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:06 pmnoyk – On the internet these days it seems to be used most often in a derisive manner to mock those holding religious beliefs or fearful of a coming right wing Christian theocracy.
Comment by daleyrocks — 8/3/2012 @ 12:01 pm
Now that you mention it, have seen it used several times in exactly that way. If I hung out around DU or Feministing no doubt I’d see it a lot more. 😛
no one you know (325a59) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:07 pmnoyk – Nishi is a big fan of that usage.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:10 pmXianist xenophobic hohophobes
JD (cfef43) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:10 pmIt’s Chi Rho, ΧΡ (Sic Signo Vinces), and it was used by Constantine the Great, the first Roman emperor to recognize Christianity. It still appears in a lot of Christian art. The way Milhouse used it is just nosethumbing.
nk (875f57) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:11 pmThe use of ‘X’ as shorthand for ‘Christ’ doesn’t bother me, but I’ve seen it all my life within religious (Catholic) contexts. It’s a familiarity thing.
If it has been used disparagingly, it’s the dismissive context I noticed, not the signifier itself.
Pious Agnostic (7c3d5b) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:15 pmApparently Adam “I got smacked by the hand” Smith has been interviewed by Teh Blaze. Bets on whether he plays the victim? Claims death threats? Lies?
JD (cfef43) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:19 pmI confess. When I type “Tommy Xtopher” I do it disparagingly.
elissa (2af611) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:20 pmDitto what Elissa said.
JD (cfef43) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:22 pm79. “There’s no mention of Chick-fil-A on the front pages of the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal….” (Weekly Standard)
The NBC Nightly News (to my surprise) mentioned tremendous lines at Chick-fil-A on Wednesday, without however giving too much of the background. The network evening news is said to be like a front page, and ths was within the first half (first 15 minutes)
Sammy Finkelman (ce5e39) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:24 pm\
Joel Stein has a column in TIME Magazine. he was kind of conflicted – he had wanted to try out Chick-fil-A for eight months and now he couldn’t do it without making a statement (he opposed) about gay marriage. He went with some supporters of gay marriage to the store but couldn’t bring himself to buy anything.
I had to Google The Blaze to even know what it was. I ain’t been missing a thing.
nk (875f57) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:32 pmThey should check their references, for one thing. Supposedly Smith was acting according to Proverbs 25:21,
21 If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat;
if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.
But they leave out the second part,
22 In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head,
and the Lord will reward you.
Which is what happened. There might be something in this Bible stuff after all.
nk (875f57) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:42 pmMillhouse uses it exclusively from what I have seen… I think because Christ means Messiah.
Gerald A (138c50) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:51 pmI should add Xian is clearly not standard even though it has some history.
Gerald A (138c50) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:52 pmI use Xian.
JD (cfef43) — 8/3/2012 @ 12:54 pmI’m glad Adam Smith got fired, and I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if the girl’s father, brother, husband, or boyfriend didn’t show up on Smith’s doorstep with a camera, drag the stupid jerk out in the front yard, whip his sorry ass, then post it on the net. I’d pay to see it.
ropelight (2b7501) — 8/3/2012 @ 1:28 pmExcuse me? When have I ever accused anyone of “hate speech”? You have got to be off your f—ing rocker.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 8/3/2012 @ 1:52 pmYou know, that sounds exactly right.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 8/3/2012 @ 1:55 pmWhat?! That’s insane. If I were intolerant, why on earth would I spend so much time defending Christians? I’m on a jury now in a case where one of the defendants is Moslem; her lawyer was evidently happy enough with my answers that he agreed to have me on the jury, and he was right to do so. I’m all about religious tolerance.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 8/3/2012 @ 2:06 pmHere you go. And here
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 8/3/2012 @ 2:31 pmOK this is probably going to get me into a fight but…*squints hard*…
Come on, that was pretty ghoulish. The kid was dead; he belonged in a grave so he could get on with whatever lay in his future. Then again, I suppose I’m just being a cultural chauvinist. I know Catholics have some bizarre (to me) attitudes towards death and the dead. Wakes, for instance; how disrespectful can you get? And burying people in the church basement instead of in a cemetery like normal people. And relics; to me that seems horribly gruesome. If you venerate someone, then surely the least you can do for them is let them rest in peace and in one piece instead of dismembering them and putting bits and pieces of them on display. You wouldn’t want someone doing that to you, so why is it OK to do it just because they’re dead and can’t object? I just don’t get it. But I suppose if you’re OK with the idea of carrying around St Whatshisname’s finger bone, then playing with your dead kid’s body, and introducing your kids to their dead sibling, may not seem that strange either. But don’t ask me to relate to it; I just can’t.
Comment by Milhouse — 1/3/2012 @ 1:20 am
Milhouse, I linked that because I knew you’d want at least one piece of evidence, and precisely because I know you to be an honest person who strives for integrity. I realize you believe you are tolerant. I include the above quote to ask you, respectfully, to please think about what comments you are making in future, to keep to the values (like religious tolerance) that I’m sure you hold.
no one you know (325a59) — 8/3/2012 @ 2:39 pmNOYK, that was a wonderful effort. But you know the saying about consistency, sadly?
I think we have a weird yardstick in this country when it comes to being tolerant. I believe it is due in part to the death of civility in Western Civilization.
Simon Jester (dab08c) — 8/3/2012 @ 2:43 pmRachel is America’s working class hero!
Adam Smith is America’s biggest moron!
He completely hosed himself. The only job he will ever be able to get is as a fluffer in gay porno films.
640GB (5c024e) — 8/3/2012 @ 3:10 pmFluffer in gay porn? Is that what they call the guy that writes Obama’s campaign emails?
SPQR (b93549) — 8/3/2012 @ 3:11 pmHeh, NOYK. A memory like an elephant you have. (And obviously you have the habit of respectfully reading and processing people’s comments, too.)
Hopefully this will not turn into another big brouhaha.
elissa (2af611) — 8/3/2012 @ 3:21 pmThat was tolerance. Despite something being completely bizarre to me, I went out of my way to acknowledge that this was just a cultural difference, and that in Santorum’s culture what he did was probably normal. That’s exactly what tolerance is. In fact that’s bending over backwards to be tolerant. Perhaps you’re unclear on the difference between tolerance and acceptance.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 8/3/2012 @ 4:00 pmthat blowzy blond lady on The Voice is called xtina a lot even though it should be xina but what can you do
happyfeet (a55ba0) — 8/3/2012 @ 4:14 pmfeets, there’s historical precedent for using Xt and Xp as abbreviations for “Christ” too. So Xina, Xtina, and Xpina are all acceptable. Xina has the advantage of using one less letter.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 8/3/2012 @ 4:25 pmxpina would throw me for sure
happyfeet (a55ba0) — 8/3/2012 @ 4:30 pmeven after you told me
happyfeet (a55ba0) — 8/3/2012 @ 4:30 pm“What?! That’s insane. If I were intolerant, why on earth would I spend so much time defending Christians?”
Milhouse – I have not noticed you spending inordinate time defending Christians and in fact observe you spending more time denigrating their beliefs and practices. By your own words you believe your beliefs are right and theirs are wrong so I have no idea what you are talking about. I already gave one example of your bigotry in an earlier comment an now see that noyk brought up another fine example which I had planned to reference if you continued the conversation. During the same conversation when I volunteered the Jewish funeral ritual of shoveling dirt on a coffin made me feel creepy, you jumped all over me and disputed that I could actually feel that way. That is intolerance.
Here is the first item under the definition of tolerance from the American Heritage Dictionary to clear up your apparent confusion on the subject, especially reviewing the paragraph cited by noyk”
“NOUN:
The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others. ”
With respect to religions viewing themselves as right and others wrong, do you see the Pope when visiting with leaders of other faiths getting in their faces and telling they are wrong or does he talk about differences and coexisting. According to your theory and nk, the Pope should be up in everybody’s grill. Except for bloodshed in the name of Islam, what sophistry on your part explains why I don’t see this happening or see it happening when Jewish leaders get together with Christian leaders?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/3/2012 @ 4:35 pmMilhouse, It appears tolerance and intolerance are in the eye of the beholder. If demonstrating tolerance is your overarching goal I have several questions for you. In the specific case quoted above by NOYK why did you feel a need to share your internal squeamishness and private thoughts with respect to another faith’s death traditions and burial practices in such detail? Did you consider how others might possibly interpret your descriptions and observations as an application of criticism and disgust rather than a show of tolerance? What did you hope to accomplish by using such highly charged words as “ghoulish”, “bizarre” and “strange”? Are you able to sit back and analyze how you might feel if those same words were used by others to detail some of your own faith’s traditional practices?
elissa (2af611) — 8/3/2012 @ 4:41 pmThen you are not paying attention and should be quiet. What do you think I’ve been doing in this thread all along, if not defending Dan Cathy and Chick-Fil-A? I’m always standing up for Xians when they’re attacked for their religious beliefs, whether by atheists or by Jews. Which I wouldn’t do if I were intolerant. I stood up for Romney when he was being attacked for his religion. I stood up for Sarah Palin when she was being attacked for things that happened at her church — not only the African pastor blessing her but also the J4J speaker at her church, which made me kind of uneasy, but I wrote that one has to see it from her point of view, and from that POV what the guy said was reasonable. I also stood up for Hagee when he was being attacked. Back during the Lindy Chamberlain thing I was always a strong supporter of hers, because I saw what was happening to her as a classic blood libel. Calling me intolerant is just insane.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 8/3/2012 @ 4:46 pmMilhouse – Unless the religious beliefs of somebody else or a faith as a whole interfere with my life, I fail to see why they should be any of my freaking business. For you, they are an ongoing obsession.
I am perfectly comfortable sitting with my own beliefs and thinking, hey a bunch of people in Japan or China or India have different beliefs than me. If I get interested enough I can even explore the nature of those belief systems, compare aspects of them to mine and make value judgements about them. That’s up to me. All I know is that there are a bunch of belief systems in the world about from my. Mine works for me. I don’t have to automatically believe others are wrong because they are different. They obviously work for hundreds and hundreds of millions of people.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/3/2012 @ 4:48 pmOf course. Anyone who believes anything does the same, or is dishonest. Tolerance is precisely about allowing for wrong beliefs, not ones that are or might be right! If a belief is correct or even might be correct there’s no need to tolerate it; it ought to be accepted. Toleration is for beliefs that are wrong, but sincerely held and harmless to others.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 8/3/2012 @ 4:50 pm“Then you are not paying attention and should be quiet. What do you think I’ve been doing in this thread all along, if not defending Dan Cathy and Chick-Fil-A?”
Milhouse – Thank you for inviting me to be quiet. I think it is interesting that you view your commentary on this issue as serving as a martyr for the Christian cause rather than a First Amendment issue. Does that make your feel more heroic?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/3/2012 @ 4:55 pmAccording to your theory and nk, the Pope should be up in everybody’s grill.
Nope. That’s militant proselytizing. My theory is “I believe in One God, Father Almighty…”, if sincere, does not leave room for Apollo, in my head, unless I have developed Orwellian “doublethink”, the ability to simultaneously accept mutually contradictory ideas. The intolerance and exclusiveness, I was referring to, are in the believer’s own mind and not necessarily in his behavior towards others.
nk (875f57) — 8/3/2012 @ 4:58 pm“Are you able to sit back and analyze how you might feel if those same words were used by others to detail some of your own faith’s traditional practices?”
elissa – It was clear to me he could not accept similar even milder criticism.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/3/2012 @ 4:58 pm“The intolerance and exclusiveness, I was referring to, are in the believer’s own mind and not necessarily in his behavior towards others.”
nk – Noted. Milhouse exhibits his behavior towards others in my view.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/3/2012 @ 5:01 pmDid you consider how others might possibly interpret your descriptions and observations as an application of criticism and disgust rather than a show of tolerance? What did you hope to accomplish by using such highly charged words as “ghoulish”, “bizarre” and “strange”? Are you able to sit back and analyze how you might feel if those same words were used by others to detail some of your own faith’s traditional practices?
Comment by elissa — 8/3/2012 @ 4:41 pm
Like the way you put this, elissa. It did seem to me that the tone of the disagreement was what made Milhouse’s comment (and other similar ones) intolerant.
Even if you do think others are wrong, there is a respectful and disrespectful way of registering your disagreement. Especially (not to put too fine a point on it) when you clearly already know such differences lean more toward matters of sensibility variances rather than the truth of a doctrine, as his adjectives made clear.
no one you know (7ecbf6) — 8/3/2012 @ 5:07 pmMy daughter just got back from spending a month in Greece, with her grandmother who makes the Patriarch look like a pagan, and we have been having some interesting conversations about God, Satan, atheism, agnosticism, gnosticism….
We have even discussed how Methodism is a rejection of Calvinism and how Calvinism is a Lutheran splinter (King of the Hill episode). 😉
nk (875f57) — 8/3/2012 @ 5:10 pmnk – in your discussion of Calvinism, did you take the Hobbesian or anti-Hobbesian stance ?
Alasdair (81fcf1) — 8/3/2012 @ 5:19 pmTotally off topic, but I just wanted to restate my opinion that elissa writes comments that maximize clarity and diplomacy. She is the anti-troll.
Pious Agnostic (ee2c24) — 8/3/2012 @ 5:34 pmI have nothing against the Jewish, or better the Israeli people (there are twelve tribes after all and not all belong to the tribe of Judah) and they are God’s chosen people. But since Milhouse chooses to be so disrespectful in his continued arrogant usage of Xian instead of Christian, after having been repeatedly told that it is offensive. I will refer to his religion as Jewdism instead of Judaism. Maybe then he will understand what the offense is, but probably not since he is sort of dense.
peedoffamerican (ee1de0) — 8/3/2012 @ 5:38 pmNo, she’s only ten, and she has never watched Calvin and Hobbes. She likes Phineas and Ferb. We talked about the Pilgrims.
nk (875f57) — 8/3/2012 @ 5:43 pmelissa wrote:
Your statement assumes that he realizes he was in the wrong. One of us is uncertain that such is the case.
The practical Dana (f68855) — 8/3/2012 @ 5:47 pmAm I the only one who wishes he could have overheard the conversation between Mr and Mrs Smith when he had to tell her he’d taken an unexpected career move, and why? 🙂
The fly-on-the-wall Dana (f68855) — 8/3/2012 @ 6:21 pmMilhouse, at 120:
I’m on a jury now in a case where one of the defendants is Moslem; her lawyer was evidently happy enough with my answers that he agreed to have me on the jury, and he was right to do so. I’m all about religious tolerance.
Please say nothing more about this. Were I a juror, I would be uncomfortable having even said this much.
Once the trial is done, i’d love to hear the story. But until then: loose lips sink ships.
aphrael (24797a) — 8/3/2012 @ 7:57 pm145.since Milhouse chooses to be so disrespectful in his continued arrogant usage of Xian instead of Christian, after having been repeatedly told that it is offensive.
Comment by peedoffamerican — 8/3/2012 @ 5:38 pm
I can’t speak for all Jews. But some Jews are uncomfortable writing “Christ” or “Christian”. (I think there’s a rabbinic prohibition, but I’m not sure.) So they will write X-tian. It’s certainly not intended as a sign of disrespect. And it has a precedent in that many Christians have used “X-tian” as a an abbreviation.
On another note, many observant Jews write “G-d” instead of “God”. The reason for that is in order to prevent the possibility that God’s name will be desecrated if someone prints out the webpage and then discards the paper (whether by accident or on purpose.)
aunursa (7014a8) — 8/3/2012 @ 9:32 pmafter having been repeatedly told that it is offensive. I will refer to his religion as Jewdism instead of Judaism.
“Do unto others as others have done unto you”? Apparently my recollection of the Golden Rule is somewhat faulty.
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mammootty (81e6ae) — 8/4/2012 @ 1:15 amI wonder if its this week that Obama realizes that he has lost the election? The enthusiasm level of the buycott should have brought it clear that he is losing the enthusiasm battle. His decision to tie the campaign so closely to SSM appears to have backfired if it was anything but a desparate attempt to hang on to a frustrated ideologue base finally sick of his dissembling.
SPQR (9ecda3) — 8/4/2012 @ 7:51 amI’m not gay here also.
pdbuttons (1ad69e) — 8/4/2012 @ 7:59 ambuttons! happy weekend to you
so much depends on
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 8/4/2012 @ 8:06 amwaffle fries!
glazed wif red catsups!
beside the tasty chik-fil-a sammich
Mr Potato-Head says that just because people can stick things into his body that that doesn’t make him gay
pdbuttons (1ad69e) — 8/4/2012 @ 8:24 amOnly if he enjoys it.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/4/2012 @ 8:46 amI believe there is a Fatwa on this: if Mr. Potato-Head is in the submissive role, then he shall be mashed.
Pious Agnostic (ee2c24) — 8/4/2012 @ 8:49 amMr Potato-Head says that it is the evil corporations and their adoption of a marketing strategy that encourages children of all ages
pdbuttons (1ad69e) — 8/4/2012 @ 8:59 amto prick him. That is why Mr Potato-Head is branching out into acting and [hopefully]one day directing! [ you hockey puck ]
Mr cathy must now face the problem of avoiding taxes on his bonus generated by the 8/1 scam.
bobherde (dafca5) — 8/4/2012 @ 9:00 amAlso the tee shirts will be available soon.They are to picture a chicken sandwich with the slogan,
I ATE ONE on 8/1. Also song by this title to be performed by Cathys Singing Cows,wearing new fleece uniforms.
Well dang, I wish I faced that problem.
Pious Agnostic (ee2c24) — 8/4/2012 @ 9:02 amWould it be possible to retitle this thread, “The Invisible Hand Bitch-Slaps Adam Smith?” Somehow, it seems more appropriate.
The Dana who doubts his sincerity (3e4784) — 8/4/2012 @ 9:12 amthe thing about Mr. Potato-Head is he can change his nose and still get work unlike Jennifer Grey
and that’s nothing to sneeze at
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 8/4/2012 @ 9:35 amMr. Feets – What if Mr. Potato-Head is really Mrs. Yam trapped in Mr. Potato-Head’s body?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/4/2012 @ 10:45 amOr if Mr. Potato-Head likes young russet potatos.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/4/2012 @ 10:48 amMr Bobherde is not a very nice person what makes things up and sees conspiracies.
JD (d636c8) — 8/4/2012 @ 10:53 amI am not in the closet, but if I was, I would be very proud to be in the closet.
JD (d636c8) — 8/4/2012 @ 10:55 am“Mr Bobherde is not a very nice person what makes things up and sees conspiracies.”
JD – Is he the Bigot Burger restaurant person?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/4/2012 @ 10:59 amDaley – bob thinks it was all a planned stunt by Cathy, who apparently knew the Dem pols would go all fascist on him
JD (d636c8) — 8/4/2012 @ 11:13 amJD where do I send your tee shirt?its free .
bobherde (dafca5) — 8/4/2012 @ 12:38 pmFilet Fiesta for the gullible only happens once ,
arent you glad you contributed to the cause??
Bobherde – save it. I don’t need your charity. Send it to one of the millions unemployed because of Obama’s failed policies. Kthxby
JD (d636c8) — 8/4/2012 @ 12:45 pmBobherde either has a mancrush on Adam smith, or Dan Cathy. NTTAWWT
JD (d636c8) — 8/4/2012 @ 12:54 pm“Big Bob Herde’s Bigot Burger!
Come for the food, stay because the Jews are using contrails to control your mind.”
*Mind-controlling contrails are not available in all areas.
Pious Agnostic (ee2c24) — 8/4/2012 @ 12:54 pmOk, Pious, that was funny.
JD (d636c8) — 8/4/2012 @ 12:56 pmPA – Progressives are contributing to hate groups what want to kill Joooos all over the world, so they do have that going for them.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/4/2012 @ 1:19 pmIt’s called diplomacy.
Because that was the topic. Santorum was getting flak for the way he treated his dead son, and I was pointing out that while it seemed disturbing to a lot of people, including me, in his culture it was probably unremarkable. I was defending him.
In exactly the same way I stood up even for 0bama when his canivorous past became a nine-day wonder. Not that I actually have any problem with that, but a lot of people did and do, including a lot of people here. I don’t recall whether you had anything to say about it, but if you’re so big on tolerance, please tell us how you felt about this revelation when you first heard of it. Were you all about cultural relativity and respecting others’ ways, or were you disturbed to hear about it?
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 8/4/2012 @ 7:33 pmI don’t have a problem with writing “Christ”, but I find “X” is a convenient abbreviation, much like “gov’t”, and its historical authenticity makes it cool.
I generally don’t worry about this on blogs because it’s so unlikely that anyone will bother to print it out.
Milhouse (15b6fd) — 8/4/2012 @ 7:36 pm1. I didn’t discuss the case, just the fact of a defendant’s religion, which is public knowledge. I don’t think there’s any restriction on discussing the cast, setting, and surrounding circumstances, since they are not part of the case itself.
2. As I understand it, we jurors shouldn’t discuss the evidence among ourselves, because we should be waiting for all of it to sink in before beginning to reach conclusions (which is ridiculous, but I believe that’s the theory). But what happens in the court room is public information; if you had any interest in it you could come and watch it for yourself. So I don’t see any reason why I couldn’t relate it to outsiders, so long as I don’t say anything about the merits of the evidence or seek anyone else’s opinion on the same. Am I wrong?
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graphic design cover letter (1dc7b6) — 8/20/2012 @ 4:19 pm