Patterico's Pontifications

6/28/2012

Eric Holder – Contemptuous

Filed under: General — JD @ 1:30 pm

[Guest post by JD]

Here is a swell idea. We will let you look at a tiny fraction of the documents we have now claimed privilege for, documents that we know you have every right to see. We get to pick what is included in this tiny fraction of requested documents. You cannot copy them. You cannot take notes. And you have to permanently drop the contempt vote.

— JD

394 Responses to “Eric Holder – Contemptuous”

  1. I hold them in contempt.

    JD (318f81)

  2. The initial vote on the rules for the contempt motion passed with 15 Democrats voting in favor.

    The contempt vote itself should go largely the same way, with a large bipartisan majority in favor of contempt.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  3. 18 Dems vote with Repubs to hold Holder in Contempt.

    Psycotte (077749)

  4. From the Hill:

    Members voted 254-173 in favor of a rule governing floor debate for the two resolutions, setting up more debate and votes later in the day. The rule was approved by every Republican, and 15 Democrats, a sign that the resolutions might win the support of about a dozen or more Democrats later in the day.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  5. Apparently some left the room and did not vote. Rumor has it they were seen on I-90 west of Chicago headed towards Rockford.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  6. Seriously, thank God for some people having some integrity.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  7. 255 to 67 vote for contempt.

    Amazing how many Democrats decided not to vote to support Holder.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  8. 255-67 to hold in contempt. 100 Democrats not voting allows Republicans to cover spread easily.

    the bhead (a31060)

  9. I would love to see the right double down on stupid with this one. Clearly this would be admission that they are looking for political blood after the SCOTUS buttkicking they got today.

    tye (ed9641)

  10. Bipartisanship carries the day!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  11. tye, that’s a really stupid thing for you to say. The contempt vote has been scheduled for a week, and you write that its because the GOP lost today?

    You really are a blithering moron – and one that supports a corrupt administration covering up the deaths of two Federal agents and hundreds of Mexican citizens over their own incompetence.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  12. “tye” supports opacity, dishonesty, and the deaths of hundreds.

    JD (ad6f40)

  13. The offer itself should be grounds for another Contempt of Congress charge.

    Not that Congress isn’t contemptible!

    htom (412a17)

  14. It is difficult to think of any way that tye could write anything more stupid than that comment.

    Evidently, his stupidity isn’t even original.

    Pure flaming moron.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  15. I support good health.

    tye (ed9641)

  16. tye, then your incoherent comments should concern your doctor.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  17. ==Rumor has it they were seen on I-90 west of Chicago headed towards Rockford.==

    The Tilted Kilt has laid in extra supplies having already had significant experience with fleeing Democrats on the run from real responsibilities.

    elissa (bd6062)

  18. Wait a minute; I thought today was a great victory for Obama?

    AZ Bob (7d2a2c)

  19. How many Dems were too cowardly to vote?

    PRESENT!!!

    JD (ad6f40)

  20. 15. I support good health.

    Comment by tye — 6/28/2012 @ 2:09 pm

    Well, you’re SOL son, cuz what you got is ObamaTaxHikeIncomeRedistribution instead.

    That’s the one silver lining I think we can all agree on. Imagining the look on tye’s face when the herbalist (due to the impending doctor shortage) in the local people’s clinic tells him he has what in the past would have been treatable heart disease, then hands him what’s rumored to be a pain-killing plant extract as he sends him home to die.

    As Obama said, sometimes you’re better off getting the pain killer than the expensive heart medicine. And by “you” he meant the government.

    Think of it as “discretion;” in the same way we can’t waste precious, scarce border patrol and immigration enforcement on the silly idea of border control and immigration enforcement (although per executive order we can divert those resources to amnesty facilitation thus making them even more scarce) we won’t be able to waste precious, scarce effective treatment drugs on the likes of you in the near future.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  21. Comment by MD in Philly — 6/28/2012 @ 1:50 pm

    Seriously, thank God for some people having some integrity.

    It may not be integrity. they were in a very embarrassing position. (and the other way, of course pressure was brought on them.)

    Last year, 31 Democrats had written a letter to President Obama asking him to direct Eric Holder, the Attorney General, to co-operate with the committee.

    Now after this, not voting for contempt is either not being willing to uphold the prerogatives of Congress to subpoena, and most Congressmen do not want to do that – they won’t get any co-operation themselves let’s say if there is no subpoena power.

    Or, it’s saying that the issue is not important. But these 31 Democrats had already signed something last year that amounted to saying it was very important.

    Not voting for contempt was either denying that Congress didn’t really have the power of subpoena, which most Congressmen do not want to do, or saying this is not worth subpoening anybody about.

    Of course you could negotiate, but that string was played out.

    Sammy Finkelman (976d9e)

  22. Finkelman, has anyone ever told you that using too many bits on the Internet causes global warming?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  23. only someone as stupid at tye would think today’s SCOTUS ruling was a loss for the GOP.

    “Obamacare” is now and forever the “Obama Healthcare Tax”. further more, since it is now officially a tax, it raises the future question as to it being constitutional, since the bill our SCOAMF signed into law originated in the Senate, not the HoR, which is where all tax bills have to start.

    the right based is inflamed and energized just in time for the campaign to November, and the brighter of the so called “independents” and the left are now facing the reality that, rather than “free healthcare” they are going to get the perpetual shaft from the IRS if they don’t have the $$ to buy insurance.

    Ear Leader has to defend, over and over, his tax, because that is now what the law of the land says, and only another SCOTUS ruling or a change in the law can alter that. remember, the First Liar promised no taxes on people who;s income was less that $250K… not any more.

    and lastly, Roberts gutted the MFM plan to paint the SCOTUS as hopelessly partisan, which was where all you scumbags were going to go if it had been 5-4 the other way.

    you and your precious lightweightw*rker have been screwed in the cold hard light of day, with no lube or a reach around, and you’re too stupid to even know it.

    sucks to be you. 8)

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  24. Oh, very nicely framed, redc1c4, even if a little of the vulgah slipped in–Hopefully you have provided this insight on more than a few lefty blogs and websites today.

    elissa (bd6062)

  25. It was a great day for Obama. When you look at this witch hunt in hindsight you will begrudgingly admit that it was a better day than you thought. You ought to have let this die.

    tye (ed9641)

  26. “tye” – maybe you and yours shouldn’t have gotten hundreds killed. Like what’s his name. And the other one.

    Everybody noticed how cowardly you were in running away from my proposal. And your idiocy here today is some of your best EVAH

    JD (ad6f40)

  27. tye, your comments are getting more incoherent by the day, beyond even my belief in your skills as a court jester.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  28. I think tye is unclear on the concept. Let’s find out.

    tye, will you be buying a health insurance policy such as has been mandated, paying the tax/penalty, or receiving a waiver of some sort? Are you on a parent’s policy currently? If you are employed or a spouse is, and have health insurance through them how long do you think that’s going to last now that the shhtf?

    elissa (bd6062)

  29. I have insurance through my job.

    tye (ed9641)

  30. Proposal? Not sure to what you’re referring. To be frank I don’t trust you.

    tye (ed9641)

  31. I have insurance through my job.

    Just wait until they dump you on the exchange.

    JVW (f28a18)

  32. This thread was about Holder and the contempt vote against him – until the lying troll tye tried to derail it with the most stupid comment I’ve seen from him. Which of course is pretty stupid.

    Let’s not let the lying troll derail the thread.

    Holder was found by the House to be in contempt and prosecution of the contempt citation authorized.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  33. How about this, let’s start off on a new foot, “tye”. I promise to be nothing short of kind towards you, as will everyone else. In return, you just have to admit all the names you have commented under, and apologize for your vile smear of Laura Bush yesterday, as a sign of good faith.

    Ready? Go.

    Comment by JD — 6/27/2012 @ 7:30 am

    JD (318f81)

  34. I would love to see the right double down on stupid with this one. Clearly this would be admission that they are looking for political blood after the SCOTUS buttkicking they got today.
    Comment by tye — 6/28/2012 @ 2:05 pm

    — Speaking of doubling down on teh stupid . . .

    It was a great day for Obama. When you look at this witch hunt in hindsight you will begrudgingly admit that it was a better day than you thought. You ought to have let this die.
    Comment by tye — 6/28/2012 @ 2:59 pm

    — Or tripling down. “)

    Icy (9ccb08)

  35. Is the special prosecutor act still around or did it expire after the Clinton mess? Because Holder cannot prosecute himself, even if he wanted to.

    nk (875f57)

  36. tye will now defend those brave Democrats that picked up their marbles and went home.

    Icy (9ccb08)

  37. nk @35 — Oh, come on, Holder is a lawyer. Of course he could prosecute himself, that would only take talking out of one side of his mouth. The other side could defend him, too. And, sure win, either way.

    htom (412a17)

  38. I don’t trust you. And I said before my name is Tyler. Tye is my only name. So in the spirit of your “deal” I will list all the names under which I’ve commented: tye.

    tye (ed9641)

  39. NBC Nightly News: When Obama found out that the law was upheld, the reaction was “fast and furious”

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  40. 36- I will laugh in your face whem the right feels the backlash from the voting public from this over-reach.

    tye (ed9641)

  41. You ought to have let this die.

    just like the SCOAMF and Two-Face Holder have let so many others die with their criminal Fast & Furious” program?

    stupid that concentrated ought to be treated as a WMD.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  42. you’ll be sure and let us know when that backlash hits, right tye?

    ’cause i don’t think it will be detectable by the normal human eye.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  43. tye, the voting public will be outraged to learn more of the Fast & Furious operation now that the main stream media has to explain it.

    And they should be, the coverup of a criminally incompetent operation to intentionally smuggle guns into Mexico without notifying Mexican authorities and the hundreds of resulting deaths ought to result in Holder at a minimum being held criminally responsible. Especially since the operation had no legitimate law enforcement purpose and was only pursued to fake numbers of “smuggled” guns to support advocates of additional gun control laws.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  44. what can i say elissa: i got my people skills in the Army.
    8)

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  45. It was the Obama administration that ought to have let this die, because Fast & Furious was not getting any main stream media attention before the contempt resolution.

    The White House’s incompetence has been manifest for all four years, and hasn’t improved.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  46. It is not thread jacking if I am responding to some other commenters verbal vomit.

    tye (ed9641)

  47. 9. I would love to see the right double down on stupid with this one. Clearly this would be admission that they are looking for political blood after the SCOTUS buttkicking they got today.

    Comment by tye — 6/28/2012 @ 2:05 pm

    Clearly the fact that the blood that the Obama/Holder criminal conspiracy spilled wasn’t the metaphorical political type carries no weight with tye.

    And you, tye, think the GOP is doubling down on stupid.

    35. Is the special prosecutor act still around or did it expire after the Clinton mess? Because Holder cannot prosecute himself, even if he wanted to.

    Comment by nk — 6/28/2012 @ 3:29 pm

    My impression was that the House doesn’t need to rely on a special prosecutor to enforce this contempt order in criminal court. Congress doesn’t have to rely on the executive branch to discharge its Constitutional powers for it.

    The precedent,I’ve read, is that the Congress has the inherent power to enforce its contempt orders. The normal procedure is that when the House votes to hold someone in contempt, it goes to the US District Attorney in D.C. who then has to bring this before the grand jury. But in this case the US District Attorney works for the contemptible Holder. But there’s an alternate procedure when the US District Attorney refuses to do his or her duty and enforce the House’s order. The House would simply have to press the District Attorney for an answer as to whether or not he was going to bring the criminal contempt charge before a grand jury. If the reply is no or isn’t timely, then the House can go ahead and enforce the order themselves.

    Here, the House could have voted to press the US District for an immediate answer as to whether or not the USDA would take this before a grand jury. Then go proceed on that basis.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  48. 43- you forgot the ™. Bush trademarked gun running operations.

    tye (ed9641)

  49. 36- I will laugh in your face whem the right feels the backlash from the voting public from this over-reach.
    Comment by tye — 6/28/2012 @ 3:37 pm

    — Question: Was the prosecution of Roger Clemens an “over-reach”?

    And please, go ahead and defend those cowards that walked out and wouldn’t even vote in support of Holder.

    Icy (9ccb08)

  50. 43- you forgot the ™. Bush trademarked gun running operations.
    Comment by tye — 6/28/2012 @ 3:45 pm

    — If that’s the case, then WHY is Holder refusing to turn over documents?

    Icy (9ccb08)

  51. 36- I will laugh in your face whem the right feels the backlash from the voting public from this over-reach.

    Comment by tye — 6/28/2012 @ 3:37 pm |Edit This

    Do explain this over-reach.

    JD (318f81)

  52. 49- the congressional investigation into PEDs was, but if you’re going to do it then you’ve got to go after those who seemingly lied to Congress. With Clinton the over-reach was the initial hunt. Once he lied he was in trouble. Of course, the voting public absolutely loved him during that whole process. Beware… go after Obama too hard and you’ll be viewed as bullies. You’ll essentially reelect him.

    tye (ed9641)

  53. 43- you forgot the ™. Bush trademarked gun running operations.

    This is a lie. An overt lie. Now, it has been explained to you previously, but you assumed the ostrich position, head in the sand, ass in the air.

    JD (318f81)

  54. 51- look up “over” and “reach” in the dictionary then put them together, biff.

    tye (ed9641)

  55. It’s not a lie just because you don’t like it. Deal, biff.

    tye (ed9641)

  56. What is the over-reach in investigating the criminal release of guns into Mexico, with no attempt to track them, resulting in the death of what’s his name and the other guy, along with a few hundred Mexicans?

    JD (318f81)

  57. #36 & #37 A little clarity from Gilbert:

    Pish-Tush:

    And so we straight let out on bail
    A convict from the county jail,
    Whose head was next on some pretext
    Condemned to be mown off,
    And made him headsman, for we said,
    “Who’s next to be decapited
    Cannot cut off another’s head
    until he’s cut his own off”.

    felipe (950b40)

  58. It’s not a lie just because you don’t like it. Deal, biff.

    How very observant of you. It is a lie being it is knowingly false and deceptive. It is not based on facts, or the truth. That is what makes it a lie. Ad since it has been demonstrated to you repeatedly, yet you persist, it cannot be viewed as a mistake, therefore, it is a lie.

    JD (318f81)

  59. So “tye”doesn’t believe Congress has oversight authority to investigate such matters.

    JD (318f81)

  60. It’s not a lie just because you don’t like it. Deal, biff.

    Comment by tye — 6/28/2012 @ 3:55 pm

    It’s a lie, numbnuts, because even Holder when pressed had to admit the Bush era Wide Reciever and the Obama era F&F weren’t remotely the same thing.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  61. When did Fast and Furious begin, “tye” ?

    JD (318f81)

  62. Sammy, all I cared was that there were some Dems who voted to hold Holder in contempt. these days finding just one to go against the flow can be encouraging.

    yes, the problem with not having an independent investigation is that no matter how good the US attorneys are doing the job, they still are answerable to Holder.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  63. I wonder what the endgame of all of this is. I can’t imagine that Holder would return for a second Obama term, should that nightmare come to pass, so I am wondering if the Administration just lets all this slide past the election, at which point Obama can grant a preemptive pardon to Holder and let him go be the legal analyst on MSNBC. Or is there a chance that Obama has to address this before the November election, either by granting a pardon, or quietly encouraging Holder to step down, or both?

    JVW (f28a18)

  64. Boldly going where no Congress or Cabinet member has gone before, JVW…to be continued.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  65. 18 Dems vote with Repubs to hold Holder in Contempt.

    Well, this lack of bi-partisanship will be denounced by the Left even more than they gloried in any “bi-partisan” vote in the Senate in which the only GOP member voting with the majority was one of the Lady’s from Maine.

    Racists!

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  66. Comment by JD — 6/28/2012 @ 4:02 pm

    JD, asking for an answer would strain, and overwork, tye’s limited number of cranial neurons.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  67. It is my understanding that the House Leadership can petition the DC Circuit directly for appointment of a Special Counsel to investigate a matter involving the Justice Dept.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  68. Just to rub tye’s nose into his own mess, here’s a link to a video rubbing Holder’s nose into his mess.

    Sen. Cornyn asks if Holder is just winging it when he tries to play the “Bush did it to” game and pretend he doesn’t know the differences except that WR and F&F took place under different administrations. Cornyn starts rattling off the differences, beginning with the most important one in that the Bush era program was done in complete cooperation with the Mexican government so the guns could be tracked and wouldn’t reach the cartels to be used in crimes, while the Obama admin withheld the existence of the program from the Mexican government, so the guns couldn’t be tracked and would get into the hands of the cartels and would be used in crimes.

    And Holder had to admit he couldn’t equate the two programs.

    Not like that will effect tye’s lying butt. Political blood, real blood, “who cares” is his motto.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  69. tye sh*t himself again, the swine.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  70. The video is important not just because it rubs tye’s nose into his own mess. It also highlights, as a result of more recent discoveries, numerous perjurous statements that Holder made before the Senate while trying to pretend no one knew about the gunwalking scheme at DOJ.

    The fact that DOJ was reviewing and signing off on wiretap requests shows it’s false. You don’t even need to know what’s in the wiretap applications. You just need to know they exist.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  71. Tye,
    Wide Receiver
    GPS Tracking of guns
    Full cooperation of US and Mexican Law Enforcement
    Assessed regularly for effectiveness, shut down when it was shown to be ineffective

    Fast and Furious
    No Tracking of guns whatsoever
    No cooperation with Mexican L.E.
    Only shut down after US L.E. officers were killed

    One was a standard sting operation, the other was mind-bogglingly stupid to the point that people are wondering if it was a conspiracy.

    OmegaPaladin (f2d931)

  72. Okay, people have tried to explain the differences to you, AGAIN, “tye”. Do you maintain your assertion, acknowledge that you were utterly uninformed, or admit you were going for the big lie?

    JD (318f81)

  73. So “tye”doesn’t believe Congress has oversight authority to investigate such matters.
    Comment by JD — 6/28/2012 @ 3:59 pm

    — This is tye’s new strategy to guarantee four more years:
    Separation of Powers, on the honor system.

    Icy (9ccb08)

  74. Gun running started under Buuuuuush. Fact.

    tye (ed9641)

  75. Jury’s in, JD, and the verdict is tye’s “going for the big lie.”

    Like we thought the yokel would make a different choice.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  76. Gun running started under Buuuuuush. Fact.

    It also ended under Bush, because the Bush administration saw that it wasn’t working.

    Fact.

    Chuck Bartowski (775c14)

  77. 73- I don’t feel comfortable with someone of your track record establishing what I do and don’t believe, biff.

    tye (ed9641)

  78. How about you do us all a big favor?

    Take that recent Fortune Magazine investigative piece that looked at all this and you debunk it — not with one of your typically brief and puerile dismissals based on nothing more than saying “douchebag” — but bit by bit, fact by fact, finding by finding.

    Can you do it? Please try.

    Oh, and then ask Patterico why he could never cut a nano-sliver of slack for any accomplishment in Ted Kennedy’s long career because of you-know-what, despite the fact that he seems OK with Chairman Issa’s background as an insurance-fraud arsonist, among other things.

    Is it simply the difference between an accidental and unintended death by drunken negligence compared with calculated measures that, besides fraudulently taking lots of money, possibly put firefighters’ and others’ lives at risk? I ask because I wonder sometimes how the Patterico mind works, though I get the knee-jerk ideological aspect of it.

    Larry Reilly (1f0e8d)

  79. It is not thread jacking if I am responding to some other commenters verbal vomit.

    Comment by tye — 6/28/2012 @ 3:43 pm

    Another lie by you,tye. You were the first to tie the Obamacare ruling into this thread. You never fail to double down on a dumb lie with a dumber lie.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  80. Tye,

    Now you are just being a troll.

    Gun-running has been going on for a long time, especially on the Mexican border. Gun-running refers to gun smuggling, akin to drug-running.

    There have been multiple operations to address gun-running. One, initiated under Bush, was a standard controlled delivery operation – a sting. You let the bad guy buy the guns, then track him to his boss and bust them. The other, run under Obama, was a horribly managed SNAFU. The most charitable view still requires it to have people getting killed by cartel members, who hopefully would drop the gun at the crime scene.

    If Obama was running a normal sting operation, we wouldn’t be talking about this. If Holder had come clean, he’d probably be gone, but the scandal would have blown over. But no, Obama is going to celebrate the anniversary of Watergate by being Nixon.

    Holder Lied, Agent Terry & Hundreds of Mexicans Died

    OmegaPaladin (f2d931)

  81. Gun running started under Buuuuuush. Fact.

    Comment by tye — 6/28/2012 @ 4:52 pm

    Another lie. The Bush admin operation was coordinated with the Mexican authorities. The Obama administration was not, and so actually constituted the US illegally smuggling guns into another nation without permission.

    You guys just can’t quit lying. Even Holder gave up, and admitted in testimony that the Bush operation was different and not what was going on in Fast & Furious.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  82. 73- I don’t feel comfortable with someone of your track record establishing what I do and don’t believe, biff.
    Comment by tye — 6/28/2012 @ 4:59 pm

    — Hey, I thought JD was “biff”!

    I want to be “skippy”.

    Icy (9ccb08)

  83. mostly because you hate being caught in a lie, tye, even though dishonesty is your default setting.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  84. Ya know what you can also do, Tyler? You can answer the question that was put to you: Why is this congressional imvestigation an “over-reach”?

    Icy (9ccb08)

  85. Its pretty stupid, tye, for you to be repeating talking points that Holder already abandoned as too dishonest.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  86. To whom it may concern.

    Becca Watkins, House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform spokeswoman, has already debunked the Fortune magazine “report:”

    Fortune’s story is a fantasy made up almost entirely from the accounts of individuals involved in the reckless tactics that took place in Operation Fast and Furious. It contains factual errors — including the false statement that Chairman Issa has called for Attorney General Holder’s resignation — and multiple distortions. It also hides critical information from readers — including a report in the Wall Street Journal — indicating that its primary sources may be facing criminal charges. Congressional staff gave Fortune Magazine numerous examples of false statements made by the story’s primary source and the magazine did not dispute this information. It did not, however, explain this material to its readers. The one point of agreement the Committee has with this story is its emphasis on the role Justice Department prosecutors, not just ATF agents, played in guns being transferred to drug cartels in Mexico. The allegations made in the story have been examined and rejected by congressional Republicans, Democrats, and the Justice Department.

    There’s no link to the original statement; this statement was quoted in numerous news sources. But the Fortune magazine article contains numerous effors of fact, which it’s important to note Fortune doesn’t deny but refuses to fix.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  87. 83. mostly because you hate being caught in a lie, tye, even though dishonesty is your default setting.

    Comment by redc1c4 — 6/28/2012 @ 5:13 pm

    Now, you see, that’s where you’re wrong about ol’ tye, red.

    There are liars who hate being caught in a lie. tye’s not one of them.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  88. Comment by Larry Reilly — 6/28/2012 @ 5:05 pm
    How about you do us all a big favor?
    — Ladies first, Mawry.

    Take that recent Fortune Magazine investigative piece that looked at all this and you debunk it — not with one of your typically brief and puerile dismissals based on nothing more than saying “douchebag” — but bit by bit, fact by fact, finding by finding.
    — Well hell! Why are we wasting the good folks’ money with these “oversight committees” when we can just take the word of the crack investigators of a magazine?

    Oh, and then ask Patterico why he could never cut a nano-sliver of slack for any accomplishment in Ted Kennedy’s long career because of you-know-what, despite the fact that he seems OK with Chairman Issa’s background as an insurance-fraud arsonist, among other things.
    — Well, in addition to the fact that your claim cannot be substantiated AT ALL, there is the niggling little issue of that 28-year-old girl whose life Uncle Teddy caused to cease.

    Is it simply the difference between an accidental and unintended death by drunken negligence compared with calculated measures that, besides fraudulently taking lots of money, possibly put firefighters’ and others’ lives at risk?
    — Again, the former not in dispute, the latter completely unproven.

    I ask because I wonder sometimes how the Patterico mind works, though I get the knee-jerk ideological aspect of it.
    — He gets upset when one of us dares to speak for him, but I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that I think he lets the facts do the talking.

    Douchenozzle.

    Icy (9ccb08)

  89. 5. sorry I’m late. I was preparing a proper reception for the Dirtbag 100 at the Mississippi. I was willing to risk being cited by the EPA for depositing garbage in the river.

    PCD (66bba0)

  90. It never ceases to amaze me that Larry Reilly is a freakin JournoLister. Can you imagine how unbiased his articles are?

    JD (318f81)

  91. Facts come as news to JournOlistas, JD. Compete effin’ surprises.

    Joy Behar to Sen. Rubio: would you approve of providing citizenship to children of illegal aliens born in the US?

    Sen. Rubio to Joy Behar: Uhh, they are citizens, Joy.

    To coin a phrase, I kid you not.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  92. I’m genuinely curious to know what Eric Holder is hiding.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  93. “Amazing how many Democrats decided not to vote to support Holder.”

    Exactly right. Over 100 of them left the room.

    The MSM is portraying the vote itself as political theater, but the only political theater I saw is when over 100 Democrats exited stage left; depriving Holder of anything close to fair support. When over 100,000 documents haven’t been disclosed, both sides on the issue lose. You can’t know truth without absolute transparency. It’s the same with any other decision; be it legal, scientific, philosophical, etc… the more information you have from a number of sources pro and con; the better you are able to make a fair decision. The Democrats should be thankful that the Republican majority is demanding to know more, not less.

    But they are only interested in political theater. It’s like they were begging Holder “Please, don’t tell us the truth. We don’t want to know.”

    The Congressman from SC, Trey Gowdy among several others, I think did a terrific job in presenting the case for contempt and not letting up. He’s the kind of legislator we need more of. Intelligent, articulate, persuasive and not afraid of a fight.

    Brandon (d777af)

  94. Well, Dems everywhere have this habit of bugging-out when confronted with inconvenient facts.

    AD-RtR/OS! (2bb434)

  95. 93. I’m genuinely curious to know what Eric Holder is hiding.

    Comment by happyfeet — 6/28/2012 @ 7:51 pm

    That the political appointees at the highest levels of the DoJ were aware from the start about the gunwalking and other facets of fast and furious.

    Hence the fact that they were signing off on wiretap authorizations.

    That the WH may have been involved, or at least have been aware.

    And that the WH was hip deep in the cover-up.

    I mean, this WH had David “astroturf” Axelrod sitting in on national security meetings for crying out loud. You think the Obama WH was going to let Holder manage the politics of this?

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  96. During the run-up to an election, no less?

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  97. 93-you may be disappointed. He is “hiding” documents that he is not legally allowed to release.

    tye (eab943)

  98. Biff: That “hundreds ” died from this operation is speculative. Can you prove that these Mexican drug lords were not otherwise armed before f&f?

    tye (eab943)

  99. Cite the law. Chapter and verse. You won’t, because you can’t.

    Drug cartels are going to get guns and shoot people anyway, so illegally helping them get guns and making it easier to kill people is just fine with “tye”.

    JD (ad6f40)

  100. You have tried these memes and lies before, “tye”. Simply recycling nonsense is another thing you have in common with Barcky.

    JD (ad6f40)

  101. 100- prove your statement. Provide the list of every one of the hundreds and for each list the type of weapon which caused death and where that exact weapon (with serial numbers) was obtained.

    tye (eab943)

  102. “Amazing how many Democrats decided not to vote to support Holder.”

    Comment by Brandon — 6/28/2012 @ 11:04 pm

    Exactly right. Over 100 of them left the room.

    The MSM is portraying the vote itself as political theater, but the only political theater I saw is when over 100 Democrats exited stage left; depriving Holder of anything close to fair support.

    It was the people who most supported Holder who walked out (or perhaps they wanted to hide the fact that some Democrats inclined to support he contempt resolution but not wanting to buck their leadership were avoiding the vote. So by walking out too, they made walking out a statement of support, and hid the true extent of support, or non-opposition, to the contempt resolution, and prevented anyone from compiling a list later of who sided with Holder and who did not.)

    The walkout was led by the Congressional Black caucus.

    Which may mean that Neal Rauhauser maybe had a little hand in this too. We know he was affiliated with Raul Grijalva, head of the Progressive caucus, and we also know that the people he dealt with were very involved in memorial ceremonies or something for Congressman Donald Payne.

    Sammy Finkelman (976d9e)

  103. The National Rifle Association, by the way, declared that this would be a test vote, for how members of Congress voted on Second Amendment issues.

    Sammy Finkelman (976d9e)

  104. Comment by tye — 6/29/2012 @ 5:22 am

    He is “hiding” documents that he is not legally allowed to release.

    That’s nonsense. If he is saying that now, that is only because of the Executive Privilege that he asked for. But you know, when a president claims executive privilege he is supposed to compile a “log” of subpoeaned documents he claims are exempt – he can’t just say the whole subpoena is invalid – he must make a lits of what he would turn over if he wasn’t claiming it. I think Obama Administration claimed the other day they would get around to that.

    Sammy Finkelman (976d9e)

  105. 102. “Provide the list of every one of the hundreds and for each list the type of weapon which caused death and where that exact weapon (with serial numbers) was obtained.”

    Prove you’re of age.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  106. I luv how “tye” is still pushing memes that even Holder never tried, or in some cases, still pushing memes long ago cast aside by Holder as being too dishonest even for him.

    JD (ad6f40)

  107. 107- still waiting on that list biff…

    tye (eab943)

  108. Comment by SPQR — 6/28/2012 @ 3:42 pm

    It was the Obama administration that ought to have let this die, because Fast & Furious was not getting any main stream media attention before the contempt resolution.

    You are not taking account of the unknown (to us) unknowns.

    They know what’s in the documents (that’s a known unknown) and where that would lead (the unknown unknowns)

    There is clearly some unknown (unsuspected maybe) unknown here, or else Congressman Darrell Issa, and others, would not be so mystified by their stubborness and refusal.

    The White House’s incompetence has been manifest for all four years, and hasn’t improved

    Sammy Finkelman (976d9e)

  109. The White House’s incompetence has been manifest for all four years, and hasn’t improved

    Whatever this is, I don’t think this is simple incompetence. There is some real problem that is being covered up.

    Sammy Finkelman (976d9e)

  110. ==He is “hiding” documents that he is not legally allowed to release==

    He is illegally hiding documents that implicate people who don’t want to be implicated in activities that they don’t want known to the American or the Mexican public.

    It’s kind of amusing how the not very common name “Valerie” always seems to pop up in recent “executive privilege” situations even if the cases are unrelated and they are two different Valeries.

    elissa (c72fd8)

  111. Biff: That “hundreds ” died from this operation is speculative. Can you prove that these Mexican drug lords were not otherwise armed before f&f?
    Comment by tye — 6/29/2012 @ 5:33 am

    — It IS tough, since it’s especially hard to match up each decapitated head to its original body; right, binky?

    Icy (11b47c)

  112. It’s kind of amusing how the not very common name “Valerie” always seems to pop up in recent “executive privilege” situations even if the cases are unrelated and they are two different Valeries.

    — Jay Carney knows eighteen different Valerie’s.

    Icy (11b47c)

  113. It’s called oversight.

    Clearly Holder’s Fast and Furious program was a disaster and the American people have every right to know the truth about it. We deserve transparency. This administration’s claims to be transparent and Obama’s demand presidents not hide behind executive privilege are proven to be yet more cons against the American people.

    Personally, I do not subscribe to many conspiracy theories and usually think these disasters are borne of incompetence. In this case, they do seem to be hiding something significant about Fast and Furious.

    It’s worth noting that the DOJ could have shared this information with oversight committees with confidentiality. They aren’t acting like this is information that needs to be protected for this reason. They are acting like the information needs to be protected from government oversight.

    Dustin (330eed)

  114. That “hundreds ” died from this operation is speculative.

    No it is not. It is actually a conservative summary of what is likely a far higher toll including more American citizens (not that Mexicans murdered by the foreseeable consequences Holder’s program aren’t equally tragic).

    Tye is ruthless in his hackery. I know you trolls tend to be that way in order to get reactions (it works, I admit and am proof). But have some humanity in this case. This is one of the gravest scandals in American history. Don’t be on the wrong side of it just because Obama is a democrat.

    Dustin (330eed)

  115. They’re acting like the information that a group of politicians either a) can’t keep secret or b) could be used for blackmail or c) is the first solid step on a ladder leading to something far worse than F&F or d) will prevent the re-election of 0 or e) some or all of the preceding.

    htom (412a17)

  116. The thing about conspiracy theories is that on occasion they are true, like the rumors of those terrible things Hitler was doing.

    It seems to go with the territory that once one buys into the siren song of, “What I’m doing will make the world a better place” one can justify about anything.

    For a businessman to say, “I’ll spend X dollars now, but I’ll gain X x 100 later” makes sense; somehow some people decide “X number of people will die now, but X x 100 will be saved later” also makes sense. I guess it does to some degree if one is not controlling the situation- like committing to fight a war against a tyrant, where something more direct like making a public sacrifice of 100 innocent people doesn’t “make sense” to most of us. To some, the mistaken idea that more gun control will save lives may be seen as worth sacrificng some innocents. most of us think that is wicked.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  117. ____________________________________________

    tye, then your incoherent comments should concern your doctor.

    It’s not worth debating such characters, for their brain is intrinsically leftwing. To me it’s similar to dealing with greatly damaged, corrupt or hacked computer software. That’s even truer if such a liberal is well past his or her, say, 40th or 50th birthday.

    However, it is interesting trying to figure out what goes on in the mind and life of such people. What is their track record as a spouse, friend, worker, manager, volunteer, etc? Are they more likely to be innately dishonest, casually flaky, absurdly two-faced or hypocritical? So many of them reflect the double-speak behavior of a “limousine liberal,” so that alone says a lot about what makes them tick.

    I can easily see such people having a greater capacity to be rotten human beings, if only because they have less sense of shame, logic and mature self-reflection than non-extremists. And if only because they delude themselves into believing they’re fighting the good fight, the compassionate, pro-little-guy, heroic-populist fight.

    BTW, I’d be uneasy being around or dealing with — or I’d always have subtle suspicions about — the flip side of an ultra-liberal, referring to an ultra-conservative.

    Mark (90205b)

  118. It seems to go with the territory that once one buys into the siren song of, “What I’m doing will make the world a better place” one can justify about anything.

    Yep. Many, many people have died because of delusions that there is some great political purpose that justifies it.

    And in America, Holder’s decisions of this nature are decisions he’s making on our behalf. That’s what he’s showing contempt for. He has contempt for the idea of daring to share with the American people what he was doing with OUR agency, OUR money, and ultimately at a cost to OUR law enforcement agent who was murdered, among other tragedies.

    But that’s why these self assured ‘it’s for the greater good’ folks are so dangerous. Once you’re ruthless enough to arm a drug cartel, surely you are ruthless enough to keep secrets from those dumb voters.

    Dustin (330eed)

  119. __________________________________________

    Eric Holder – Contemptuous

    What’s very ironic is that a leftist who’s also black is doing back flips to conceal an operation that can pretty much (or definitely would—if Holder weren’t both black and liberal) play into the widespread suspicions known to exist among a large portion of African-Americans. Namely, that the government (but the portion generally associated with whites, with non-liberals, with mean ol’ Republicans, and with the CIA or FBI in particular) has a hidden agenda to undermine parts of the country, certainly the black community.

    blackcommentator.com:

    In 1996 [Gary] Webb [former reporter at the San Jose Mercury News] broke a story detailing how CIA and DEA “assets” used cocaine shipments that ended up on the streets of black Los Angeles to fund the Reagan administration’s mercenary armies in Nicaragua.

    That the Reagan and elder Bush administrations financed their murderous proxy war in Central America in part with drug money after Congress cut off official funding was old news…. [Charles] Rangel [D-NY] and [John] Kerry [D-MA] called for further and deeper investigations, and both were shut down by their fellow lawmakers. The establishment press, so-called watchdogs of democracy, distorted Rangel’s and Kerry’s statements, ridiculed their allegations, and refused to examine their evidence or conduct probes of their own, effectively killing the story.

    …[Then] a flood of media pundits, white opinion leaders, editorial page writers and scholars-for-hire rushed forth to comfort white America with the news that their black neighbors, practically all African Americans, suffer from a peculiar case of chronic mass paranoia. A gargantuan, racist lie was deployed to swallow and conceal the truths that Gary Webb had labored so diligently to bring to light. “Black paranoia” was a very useful diagnosis, tailor-made to convince the white public that further examinations of the CIA connection to crack cocaine were pointless.

    Mark (90205b)

  120. I love the hyperbole here. Bush claims WMDs, thousands of Americans die, untold Iraqi civilians and army die… eh no big deal. But gasp….. Obama runs a carbon copy of a Bush operation and somebody suddenly needs to be held accountable.

    tye (eab943)

  121. Dustin (330eed)

  122. For my own mental health I mostly try to ignore tye– with the small exception that sometimes (like when arguing about the interstate highway system and FDR) the discussion is such catnip that it is nearly impossible to resist.

    But even knowing tye as we do, the fact that he
    a.)is willing to make light of Fast and Furious and treat it like a typical troll game,
    b.)continually lies to conflate multiple past and different ATF projects,
    c.) literally questions whether hundreds of murders occurred due to F&F’s misplaced guns, and
    d.)appears to have zero interest in knowing what actually happened or where fault might lie,
    has raised him to a greater level of contempt than even I thought was possible for him to deserve.

    A troll ceases being an amusing troll when it handles itself in such a flippant manner with regard to loss of human life. He truly has no shame.

    elissa (c72fd8)

  123. A troll ceases being an amusing troll when it handles itself in such a flippant manner with regard to loss of human life. He truly has no shame.

    Comment by elissa — 6/29/2012 @ 9:16 am

    I agree. It’s disgusting and ruthless. But given the attention this blog has received from heartless sociopaths, it’s not at all surprising.

    Dustin (330eed)

  124. 123- but talking about WMDs and Bush you flippantly dismiss it. And you claim to be morally superior. It disgusts me.

    tye (eab943)

  125. “I love the hyperbole here. Bush claims WMDs, thousands of Americans die, untold Iraqi civilians and army die… eh no big deal.”

    tye – Why do you dishonestly comment as if Bush was the only person to believe Iraq had WMD’s. Do you need to be provided with the long list of Democrat politicians, including Clinton and Gore, who believed the same thing? Comments like yours above are what show you add no value to this blog.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  126. 29. I have insurance through my job.

    Comment by tye — 6/28/2012 @ 3:14 pm

    Apparently your insurance doesn’t cover mental health services as you’ve obviously run out of meds.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  127. “Obama runs a carbon copy of a Bush operation and somebody suddenly needs to be held accountable.”

    tye- If it was a copycat operation, why isn’t the DOJ releasing documents to prove that shift the blame instead of just flapping their gums about it? Amirite?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  128. tye – Saddam Hussein did not use WMD’s to gas his own people. That is a complete fiction.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  129. Oh, tye!

    74. Gun running started under Buuuuuush. Fact.

    Comment by tye — 6/28/2012 @ 4:52 pm

    Federal agents getting murdered by guns run to Mexico by the USG started under Obungle. Fact.

    The attorney general becoming an accessory to the murder of federal agents started under Obungle. Fact.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  130. 126- the buck stops here

    tye (eab943)

  131. tye sh*t himself again today, the swine.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  132. “126- the buck stops here”

    tye – Read the AUMF. It was way more than WMD.

    WAR FOR OIL, ELEVENTY!!!!!!!!!!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  133. 121. Obama runs a carbon copy of a Bush operation and somebody suddenly needs to be held accountable.

    Comment by tye — 6/29/2012 @ 9:10 am

    So far the Obama admin has offed two federal agents with it’s “carbon copy” gun running operation. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and ICE Agent Jaime Zapata.

    Why don’t you come up with a list of agents the “original” Bush “gun running” operation killed. Or just a number.

    Whatever you can do when you’re off your meds.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  134. 134- why don’t you run and get me a conservative estimate for the total Iraq war casualties?

    tye (eab943)

  135. PERP WALK! WE WANT A PERP WALK!

    Space Cockroach (8096f2)

  136. Isn’t the conservative foreign policy platform to be the bullies of the world, do whatever the f*ck we want, and not apologize for it? Or is it only republican presidents who are allowed to do that?

    tye (eab943)

  137. tye is a REGURGITARD.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  138. tye – Do we have an AUMF against Mexico?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  139. tye is engaging in an attempt to distract. “See the shiny object over here? It’s much more interesting than that Holder thing. Come and follow it.”

    Chuck Bartowski (3bccbd)

  140. _________________________________________________

    Or is it only republican presidents who are allowed to do that?

    But isn’t it interesting the way so many liberals/Democrats didn’t express much or any resentment towards their beloved Obama haughtily inserting the US military into the action against Muammar Gaddafi’s regime in Libya? And that’s in spite of Obama not bothering to lift even a finger to get Congressional approval.

    The thing that really irks me to no end are the various people on the left who become more indignant about Bush and Iraq compared with their gut reaction to Hussein and Iraq. IOW, they’re not so much truly compassionate towards Iraq and its people — illustrated by their treating Hussein’s ruthless, bloody treatment of Iraqi citizens as of secondary importance — as they’re bothered by the “imperialist, greedy, heartless, mean US military and its dictator George W Bush!!”

    Again, the kicker is most of these liberals fall for the notion that their ideology somehow is firmly embedded on a foundation of great compassion, humaneness and generosity.

    Mark (90205b)

  141. Is there anyone out there reading this thread sympathetic to tye’s point of view? If so, maybe I’ll add a comment, if not, everyone else has already done a good job.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  142. Obama runs a carbon copy of a Bush operation

    Overt lie.

    JD (ad6f40)

  143. Rep Issa has posted the details of the wiretap applications

    Neo (d1c681)

  144. tye could profess to be a peacenik–an ardent anti war zealot– whose entire worldview is colored by that. I might could accept that kind of “logic” from him with respect to his railing against Boooosh or any sort of government sponsored taxpayer financed operation or use of guns that results in fatalities. But it just doesn’t work when in his next breath F&F is A-OK in his book. I guess it doesn’t register with tye that Holder’s F&F is a pure example of doing in tye’s own words, “whatever the f*ck we want, and not apologize for it”.

    I’m going to take a flyer here and guess that tye was not on his high school debate team.

    elissa (c72fd8)

  145. Obama’s had our military fighting in eight countries last time I counted.

    Did we find any WMDs in any of them (other than Iraq, where we have found WMDs).

    Dustin (330eed)

  146. 135. 134- why don’t you run and get me a conservative estimate for the total Iraq war casualties?

    Comment by tye — 6/29/2012 @ 10:01 am

    Because you’re a pathetic joke. I only engage you to highlight that fact. That’s why I don’t.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  147. elissa — oh, he could have been on his high school debate team, or even college. Some of our opponents seemed to think that preening and advocating what the judge wanted to hear was the path to victory. (And most of them seemed to think that learning your side really well was the key; Mary and I knew that we had to know both sides, and we argued both. In practice, we didn’t know which side we had until the coin flip. Thanks, Dr. Fharman.)

    htom (412a17)

  148. I love the hyperbole here. Bush claims WMDs, thousands of Americans die, untold Iraqi civilians and army die… eh no big deal. But gasp….. Obama runs a carbon copy of a Bush operation and somebody suddenly needs to be held accountable.
    Comment by tye — 6/29/2012 @ 9:10 am

    — So, YOU are saying that F&F is just as ‘bad’ as the Iraq war? Ooh, if I were you I would bring a food taster with me to that lefty soup kitchen later tonight!

    134- why don’t you run and get me a conservative estimate for the total Iraq war casualties?
    Comment by tye — 6/29/2012 @ 10:01 am

    — Why don’t you run your mouth only about Holder’s refusal to release F&F documents, Mr. Beckel, since that is the topic at hand.

    Isn’t the conservative foreign policy platform to be the bullies of the world, do whatever the f*ck we want, and not apologize for it? Or is it only republican presidents who are allowed to do that?
    Comment by tye — 6/29/2012 @ 10:03 am

    — No. The conservative foreign policy platform is to do WHAT is necessary WHEN it is necessary. But that was a good guess, binky!

    Icy (11b47c)

  149. tye, your horse manure about WMD only confirms your stupidity. Congress fully investigated the WMD intelligence with admin cooperation, exercising the oversight Obama obstructs.

    SPQR (f068a5)

  150. In the midst of a fiery floor debate over contempt proceedings for Attorney General Eric Holder, House Oversight and Government Reform Chairman Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) quietly dropped a bombshell letter into the Congressional Record.

    The May 24 letter to Rep. Elijah Cummings (D-Md.), ranking member on the panel, quotes from and describes in detail a secret wiretap application that has become a point of debate in the GOP’s “Fast and Furious” gun-walking probe.

    The wiretap applications are under court seal, and releasing such information to the public would ordinarily be illegal. But Issa appears to be protected by the Speech or Debate Clause in the Constitution, which offers immunity for Congressional speech, especially on a chamber’s floor.

    Neo (d1c681)

  151. 145-ha! Who is lying now?

    tye (eab943)

  152. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2012/06/21/iraq-wmd-poll-clueless-vast-majority-republicans_n_1616012.html

    It would make sense that you are one of the many head in the sand republicans…

    tye (eab943)

  153. ROTFLMAO at “tye”

    JD (ad6f40)

  154. Comment by Dustin — 6/29/2012 @ 10:37 am

    Did we find any WMDs in any of them (other than Iraq, where we have found WMDs).

    We could if we go into Syria.

    By he way, the U.S. and Israel have scheduled joint exercises near the Syrian border sometimes around September or October (that is probably a precaution in case Iran gets Syria to react after an attack)

    I think they are afraid Iran may try to sink a U.S. aircraft carrier, and they maybe could do it. What else could cost thousands of American lives?

    And then I read that Syria, Russia and China are planning to conduct some kind of joint exercise, but that can’t be right. They might send intelligence agents, maybe.

    Sammy Finkelman (976d9e)

  155. So far the Obama admin has offed two federal agents with it’s “carbon copy” gun running operation. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and ICE Agent Jaime Zapata.

    Zapata was not “Fast and Furious” It was something else, run out of Houston, Texas, IIRC.

    Sammy Finkelman (976d9e)

  156. tye – Did the House of Representative find Eric Holder in contempt for his work on Iraq or arming Mexican drug cartels?

    fap fap fap fap fap fap fap

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  157. Sammy, that’s why I didn’t refer to these deaths as casualties of F&F. Just generic “gun running” by some generic federal agency.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  158. Also, Sammy, I believe it was run out of Dallas.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  159. From tye’s link:

    “Debate continues over whether former President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney, and other top officials knew there were no WMD, but intentionally deceived the American people and Congress because they were intent on attacking Iraq for less palatable reasons — or whether they managed to convince themselves that it was true using cherry-picked intelligence.”

    The only place the debate continues is in the fever swamps of the deluded community-based reality after the above theories have been debunked by multiple investigations.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  160. 145-ha! Who is lying now?
    Comment by tye — 6/29/2012 @ 11:20 am

    — Sorry, I can’t see through the Internet. Are your lips moving?

    It would make sense that you are one of the many head in the sand republicans…
    Comment by tye — 6/29/2012 @ 11:22 am

    — And this would make you a head-up-your . . . donkey?
    (another explanation for why we can’t see his lips move)

    Icy (11b47c)

  161. Perhaps you don’t believe me, huffington post, msnbc, cnn, or every other news source that ran similar “no WMDs in Iraq” story… but how about Karl Rove?

    http://www.therightperspective.org/2010/03/03/rove-admits-no-wmd-found-in-iraq/

    Ouch! Butthurtin smacked down on that one.

    tye (eab943)

  162. Well, no one appears to be sympathetic to tye’s viewpoints. i’ll let those enjoying whack-a-troll to continue without my input

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  163. 160. Oh, corpulent Karl is an unimpeachble source now?

    None found doesn’t quite equal reality and is not equivalent with reasonably believed at the time, viz. Colin Powell, Obot, viz. MI6, spooks not undertaking sabotage of their own government.

    Gameboy broken?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  164. The more, the merrier, MD.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  165. Perhaps if, instead of thread-jacking, tye would limit his comments to the subject at hand . . .

    Holder.held.in.contempt.for.refusing.to.turn.over.f&f.documents.

    Icy (11b47c)

  166. Oh, and the cia final report concluded that no WMDs were found

    tye (eab943)

  167. From the beginning, ATF was transparent about its strategy. An internal ATF briefing paper used in preparation for the OCDETF application process explained as much:

    Currently our strategy is to allow the transfer of firearms to continue to take place, albeit at a much slower pace, in order to further the investigation and allow for the identification of co-conspirators who would continue to operate and illegally traffic firearms to Mexican DTOs which are perpetrating armed violence along the Southwest Border.

    Neo (d1c681)

  168. “no WMDs in Iraq”

    Well, they (and you) are just wrong!
    Or, how else do you explain the tons of processed uranium (yellow-cake) that was shipped to a processing facility in (?)Canada by the coalition?
    Plus, the chemical munitions found in various depots (admittedly left over from GW-I – but still “in Iraq”)?
    And, I am quite confident that once Assad is dealt with, we will find what was in those convoys of trucks seen in sat-pix leaving Iraq for Syria/Lebanon during the run-up to GW-II.
    The MSM, particularly the hard-Left components of it (which seems to be 90% of the total), bent over backwards to ignore the reality of what WAS found in Iraq, and conjoined that with an hysterical overemphasis of what barely transpired; all so they could trample upon the reputation of someone they despised for winning the 2000 election, and denigrate with anti-Semitic slurs a valid foreign-policy of the United States.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  169. Good job, tye. Thanks for listening.

    Icy (11b47c)

  170. the cia final report

    This from an agency that actively worked – in conjunction with “traitors” within the Dept of State – to undermine the National Security and Foreign Policy of the United States of America.

    An agency that got the Soviet Union wrong.
    An agency that has gotten very little right about the PRC.
    An agency that sent an Agency employee’s husband oversees to dig up dirt to denigrate the Vice-President of the United States, and got the whole thing wrong, even having to ignore what was reported by Wilson, so that it could be twisted into an accusation of administration over-reach.
    You mean that Agency?

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  171. tye, you have misrepresented so much, that it would take another thread to list all of your falsehoods.

    But the bottom line is that Congress fully investigated the WMD intel, with cooperation from the Bush administration, in fulfiling their oversight responsibilities – responsibilities that Obama is unconstitutionally obstructing.

    And you’ve done nothing to address that other that throw up the usual trolling “Hey! Squirrel!” comments.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  172. AD, tye is even misrepresenting what the various reports state. The Duelfer report lists all of the WMD components and munitions that were found in Iraq and were reported in the unclassified version.

    tye is a serial fabricator.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  173. Rtd%&#$&- thanks for joining in… we were just discussing how hypocritical it is that the right will gloss over the thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of deaths that took place because of the wmd lie confirmed by cnn, the cia, msnbc, huffington post, cnn and karl rove yet will disrupt the business of congress on a political witch hunt.

    tye (eab943)

  174. Let’s divert our attention from the pathetically ineffective yet amusing tye, to our ERIC HOLDER NEWS UPDATE.

    I haven’t seen this yet, but from Roll Call:

    Darrell Issa Puts Details of Secret Wiretap Applications in Congressional Record

    Some excerpts:

    In the midst of a fiery floor debate over contempt proceedings for Attorney General Eric Holder, House Oversight and Government Reform Chairman Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) quietly dropped a bombshell letter into the Congressional Record.

    The May 24 letter to Rep. Elijah Cummings (D-Md.), ranking member on the panel, quotes from and describes in detail a secret wiretap application that has become a point of debate in the GOP’s “Fast and Furious” gun-walking probe.

    The wiretap applications are under court seal, and releasing such information to the public would ordinarily be illegal. But Issa appears to be protected by the Speech or Debate Clause in the Constitution,…

    I put that last paragraph in for tye, so he can have a stroke as he tries to claim this proves Issa’s as much of a lawbreaker as Holder.

    …Holder and Cummings have both maintained that the wiretap applications did not contain such details and that the applications were reviewed narrowly for probable cause, not for whether any investigatory tactics contained followed Justice Department policy.

    They were lying. I know. Surpise, huh.

    …“The wiretap affidavit details that agents were well aware that large sums of money were being used to purchase a large number of firearms, many of which were flowing across the border”…

    …“The wiretap affidavit details that agents were well aware that large sums of money were being used to purchase a large number of firearms, many of which were flowing across the border,” the letter says.

    …It also described how ATF officials watched guns bought by suspected straw purchasers but then ended their surveillance without interdicting the guns.

    …“Although ATF was aware of these facts, no one was arrested, and ATF failed to even approach the straw purchasers. Upon learning these details through its review of this wiretap affidavit, senior Justice Department officials had a duty to stop this operation. Further, failure to do so was a violation of Justice Department policy,”

    This covers just one wiretap application dated March 15, 2010 and were signed off by senior officials at least at the Deputy Assistant Attorney General level. Who then sent frequent memos to Holder as far back as at least July 2010.

    Perjury, anyone?

    Anyone still wondering why Holder and Obama are stonewalling? They allowed an operation to go forward that violated DoJ policy, and ended up getting a lot of Mexicans and two US agents killed. This was intentional, as the aim was to track the weapons as they were recovered from crimes scenes.

    Obviously, first they had to be used in crimes.

    And if you think it’s a stretch that I’m including Obama, he’s the one who invoked executive privilege.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  175. I put that last paragraph in for tye

    I meant to say I quoted that last paragraph for tye. Normally I would’ve left it out as an irrelevancy but I want his head to explode.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  176. Steve57, you asked for it…

    I am surprised that tye does not realize that F+F was actually planned by GWB prior to leaving office as a sting for the Obama DOJ. A secret contingent in the ATF was recruited for the effort, bribed with huge sums from the sale of illegally obtained Iraqi oil on the black market.

    Darth Cheney himself visited various world government and business leaders that bought oil from saddam on the black market prior to the US invasion. Secret karaoke tapes of Cheney singing “Meet the new boss, just like the old boss” to Putin prove this is the case.

    Of course, this is all because the Bush family world oligarchy were the ones behind Obama being elected in the first place, something about George I wanting “payback on the Clinton’s”, but they didn’t want to relinquish visible power* for more than 4 years.

    “Final CIA report”. LOL. What makes you think a “final CIA report” is good for anything except generating income for California when someone is fined for littering when they miss the trash can? It’s the CIA, remember, Clandestine Idiot Activity, they do what they want, when they want, to who they want. The drones used by Obama are bought at the CIA surplus warehouse. Who do you think is really behind those alien abduction stories, anyway, aliens?

    Just remember tye, truth is stranger than fiction, and “Three Days of the Condor” was fiction, soylent green was not made from algae, and you can’t handle the truth.

    Think about it.

    *visible power- any behind the scenes world controlling oligarchy worth it’s weight in salt is always in power, it’s just a matter of how much they want to disguise it.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  177. Iraqi Yellow cake is PPPEEEEEEOOOOPPPPPLLLLLLEEEEE!

    SPQR (26be8b)

  178. Md in Philly- yes because I trust the deep conviction of right wing media outlets over, you know, official documents and un-biased media outlets. Moron.

    tye (eab943)

  179. I think the GOP ought to make an ad showing a timeline of F+F. Put each event on the line as it occured. If Beck can do such things, Certainly the GOP media people can and partisans like tye will have to concede.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  180. Moron.
    Comment by tye — 6/29/2012 @ 12:29 pm

    Like they say, the Left lacks a sense of humor. I wonder what tye puts out on his Twitter account.

    PCD- partisans like tye never have to concede anything, but I do like visual aids

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  181. Anyone who cites Arianna Huffington as an unimpeachable source is a sick, delusional partisan. I remember that lying waste of a Greek accent back when her husband (it was really her. She made him be her front man and used his family’s money.)ran in the GOP primary to face Diane Feinstein back in 94. He never showed at the debates. She did and lied her ample tucas off.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  182. ==tye is a serial fabricator==

    What trade union do serial fabricators belong to? I assume professional licensing or proof of skill are not required?

    elissa (c72fd8)

  183. elissa, the associated licensing test does seem to have a lot of cheating involved.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  184. 178- the right never concedes that it was wrong: see previous duscussion. I can’t believe the shortsightedness of the right. In the face of countless reports proving a claim that you don’t particulary like because it humanizes your hero (wmds) you claim that every single one of them is false yet not a full five minutes later you lament that “partisans” like me will never concede anything. Irony anyone?

    tye (eab943)

  185. MD, I like it. But you left out Karl Rove, the malignant puppet-master.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  186. elissa, you can be serial, but not professional. Bob Beckel, professional. Typical teenage boy in back seat of a car with typical teenage girl, serial, but not professional. Actually she’s probably serial, too.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  187. tye probably demands a refund from Twitter since he has never, cumulatively, used 140 characters.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  188. Hey all y’all. The problem is tye lives in an alternate universe where lies are truth. The same place Obama escaped from.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  189. 179- aww. How adorable. It’s being racist now… against Greeks. Weird, but still racist.

    tye (eab943)

  190. Steve57
    Not an oversight. If I said what I knew they would have to kill me.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  191. 187, being greek is not a race. What a maroon.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  192. tye, you are simply dishonest. The question of whether or not there was a intel failure with Iraqi WMD programs have no relevance to the issue of compeling Holder to produce documents he’s hiding. None. You call other a moron when you demonstrate the logic skills of a two year old?

    The WMD intelligence issue was fully investigated by Congress. The joint select intelligence committee issued reports. It had access to all the intelligence, and all the intelligence analysts, it wanted. Oversight was not obstructed by the Bush admin. Your attempt to introduce this non sequitur is of a kind of your serial falsehoods.

    Holder is hiding documents in the F&F scandal to frustrate Congressional oversight of his tenure at DOJ. Illegally.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  193. Comment by AD-RtR/OS!

    I hear that’s the new taunt on the playground, “Your vocabulary is so small you can’t fill a twitter post!” Reduces children to tears, it does.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  194. you know tye sounds like he was conceived in the back seat of a 73 Gremlin.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  195. 190- I never claimed that they were related explicitly. They are related in that they show a deep, systematic hypocrisy of that far right.

    tye (eab943)

  196. Maybe it would be helpful if people assigned Pinocchios to tye’s posts? (There’s probably a way to shortcut Pinocchios in order to save key stokes.)

    elissa (c72fd8)

  197. 194, That would cause a world-wide pinocchio shortage.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  198. tye, there is no relation. You’ve established yourself as a blithering idiot as well as utterly mendacious. You keep holding onto lies that Holder has abandoned as too incredible for him to keep a straight face while reciting.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  199. You know tye, if holder is hiding evidence of a crime, your lord and saviour, Obama could be impeached and removed from office.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  200. You said he would go to prison… bless your heart.

    tye (eab943)

  201. 198, thanks for admitting you lost your tucas in this thread.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  202. Elissa – }}}}}}} or >>>>>>>>>

    JD (318f81)

  203. Oh and I almost forgot, factcheck.org also said no wmds in Iraq. Too bad… oh and I predict Obama will neither be impeached nor serve jail time.

    tye (eab943)

  204. 201, we don’t believe that liberal funded and run site, tye. Open up that packager with the bomb the roadrunner left for you.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  205. Elissa – it is remarkable the extent the noxious trolls will go to in order to avoid talking about bad behavior of their own fellow travelers. It is as though they approve of overt lawlessness in pursuit of their goals.

    JD (318f81)

  206. Look, it wasn’t Bush who lied, it was Saddam Hussein (and possibly the CIA)

    Saddam Hussein wanted Bush to think he had chemical weapons (ready to use) because he thought that would prevent an invasion. It is still not clear what happened to his chemical weapons. Maybe they were sent to Syria, maybe the quantities were overestimated, maybe his people persuaded him to secretly get rid of them – secretly because they would still be a deterrent, get rid of them because they would not an ability to safely refuse an order to use them unless they were gone and maybe they told Saddam if they are not there, the inspectors can’t find them.

    (Bush was right on the nuclear program – it was dormant – Saddam Husein was afraid to restart it because anything he built would get bombed – after the U.S. had let him spent half a year or a year or year and a half building something. Nobody ever thought the biological weapons program was anything but a research program, so there’s really no difference)

    Saddam Hussein wanted Bush and Rumsfeld to think he had chemical weapons, and played cat and mouse with the inspectors, because:

    1) So long as Rumsfeld thought his army had chemical weapons, U.S. troops would have to wear heavy chemical weapons protection gear.

    1a) It would be too hot to too much of anything after the beginning of April because of the heat.

    2) He knew Bush would wait till the last minute to decide. So he stalled till the middle of March.

    3) He knew Bush’s plan involved invading Iraq from Turkey. Turley was going along

    4) His ace in the hole was: he had bribed members of the Turkish parliament and they would pull the rug out from Bush at the last moment.

    5) Because the rug was pulled out at the last moment, Bush would have to cancel the invasion. Because of his belief in chemical weapons Bush could not try again till October, and he just wouldn’t. He wouldn’t be able to maintain the mobilization Or something would urn up.

    6) Saddam Hussein firmly believed weapons of mass destruction was just an excuse and that was not Bush’s reason for wanting to invade. Saddam Hussein thought Bush hated him, because he had tried to kill his father, because he was an evil dictator and all good Americans hate evil dictators, and Bush was a good American, not like Clinton, and that he was a priority because, Saddam thought, George Bush the Younger considered it a blot on his father’s(and America’s) record that he had not overthrown him back in 1991, and had let him kill more people.

    So Saddam thought if he makes it clear has no chemical weapons, he gets invaded, but if he convinces Bush and Rumsfeld he has them, he won’t be, especially if he convinces others in the United Nations that he doesn’t have them.

    Bush and Rumsfeld wont invade because they’ll be double-crossed by Turkey.

    They were double-crossed by Turkey, but Bush invaded anyway, and won. Turkey really didn’t matter. Then he went wrong by not realizing hat Saddam Hussein and the remnants of his regime and the Baath Party was not the only U,.S. enemy in Iraq.

    Nobody predicted this. The Democrats who said things could go bad said that it would be difficult to defeat Saddam Hussein,

    Sammy Finkelman (976d9e)

  207. tye, the Duelfer report listed WMD’s, biological warfare seed stocks and biological warfare labs found. Shame you have no clue what you are talking about … still.

    But nonetheless, the Bush admin cooperated in Congressional oversight of that topic, which the Obama administration – despite all those lies about how they would be more transparent than the Bush admin – is obstructing.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  208. 204- sounds like a rather nuanced argument. Could you concede that the explanation of the left regarding the Holder case may be nuanced?

    tye (eab943)

  209. Make your nuanced case then. Without lying. Go.

    JD (318f81)

  210. Yeah, I didn’t think so.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>

    JD (ad6f40)

  211. heh.

    elissa (c72fd8)

  212. There can be nothing nuanced about the stonewalling being done by the Obama administration.

    The most basic fact that establishes that the Obama administration is not serious about its claims of privilege is that they’ve not produced a privilege log of their claims of privilege by document.

    That’s a basic step in legitimate claims of privilege and the DOJ’s practice in real disputes.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  213. I don’t work for the administration biff. It took the Bush disciples years to find their nuanced lies that would best be swallowed whole by morons like you with big old smiles on your faces. Maybe it will take Obama a few years to come with something I’ll be satisfied with. 😉

    tye (eab943)

  214. tye, if you don’t work for the administration, why are you repeating Jay Carney’s lies? The ones that got the White House press room laughing at him as he spoke them? The lies that have already been long ago debunked?

    You are a brazen liar, yourself. And pretty incompetent one at that.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  215. Bush re Iraq: Open and transparent to Congressional Oversight.
    Obama re Fast & Furious: Open and transparent to Congressional Oversight – NOT!

    And, how long will it take to learn the details of the Gulf Blowout, Solyndra, where all the Stimulus boodle went, and let’s not forget as it is very current, why is the Forest Service completely overwhelmed by the Wildfires in the West – what re-equipping and re-training was sacrificed for what “greater good” (just how much could have been done with the money and manpower that was expended sending Michelle to the Costa Del Sol?

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  216. why are you repeating Jay Carney’s lies

    He either is Jay Carney, or he writes his briefings.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  217. That’s mean, AD. Jay Carney is the least credible person to hold the job of WH press secretary – a field of pretty low credibility past occupants. Ron Ziegler was more credible.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  218. This is bad performance art today, “tye”. This is not one of your better efforts.

    JD (ad6f40)

  219. SPQR – ObamaCare is not a tax. Carnie said so!

    JD (ad6f40)

  220. Actually i disagree with 216. I nailed y’all on the wmds.

    tye (eab943)

  221. SPQR, it’s not mean if it’s the truth.

    BTW, how could we be expected to believe anything from someone named “Carney”?
    To be a carney was never an admirable profession – a refuge of ne’er-do-wells and scoundrels.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  222. 218- Well there’s the definitive statement on the last 20+ years of history.

    His NEA parents are so proud of him.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  223. What do you all think about the Jonathan Strong article detailing secret wiretap applications that is in Roll Call and linked at Drudge? Steve57 excerpted parts up at 172. Issa clearly knows a whole lot more than has been made public about DOJ’s (and perhaps others’)role in F&F. It must be hard for him to keep a straight face when Holder testifies, reporters ask him questions, and Carnie does his “who? Us? vaudeville routine at the WH.

    Any bets on when Holder resigns? The need for a sacrificial lamb has suddenly just grown more immediate for the President and Jarrett, I think.

    elissa (c72fd8)

  224. tye, you didn’t “nail” anyone. You showed you didn’t have a clue. You didn’t even recognize the name of the report you pretended to be referencing … as well as showed you didn’t know what it contained.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  225. 204- sounds like a rather nuanced argument. Could you concede that the explanation of the left regarding the Holder case may be nuanced?
    Comment by tye — 6/29/2012 @ 1:37

    — Go on, let’s hear it. What is “the explanation of the left”?

    Icy (11b47c)

  226. elissa, it will be a miracle if Holder can last until Labor Day – he’ll probably have to go prior to the convention.
    The damning evidence is going to be coming Fast & Furious now – the Contempt Vote will be seen as The Tipping Point.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  227. I think this (wiretap data) is probably what tye has been assigned to try to keep commenters from commenting on this afternoon, as he regales us with his games and distractions.

    elissa (c72fd8)

  228. Icy, it’s all the fault of the Neo-Cons!

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  229. tye has been awarded so many Pinnochio’s that the next Winter Games Ski-Jumping venue will be his face.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  230. And while we’re at it, have you come up with that explanation for how the House engaged in “over-reach” and conducted a “witch hunt”?

    Icy (11b47c)

  231. 198. You said he would go to prison… bless your heart.

    Comment by tye — 6/29/2012 @ 1:10 pm

    He’s got to be impeached first, SGT Shultz. Then nothing prevents him from being tried and imprisoned; if you read your Constitution, Arti…

    Oh, I forgot. Facts and you don’t mix.

    Just kidding; I didn’t forget.

    201. Oh and I almost forgot, factcheck.org also said no wmds in Iraq. Too bad… oh and I predict Obama will neither be impeached nor serve jail time.

    Comment by tye — 6/29/2012 @ 1:22 pm

    Oh, Goodee! Why don’t you quote a similarly authoritative source like Wikipedia. Then you can be wrong with TWO sources.

    206. 204- sounds like a rather nuanced argument. Could you concede that the explanation of the left regarding the Holder case may be nuanced?

    Comment by tye — 6/29/2012 @ 1:37 pm

    It’s so hard to pick amongst the many nuanced arguments the left is making. Let’s vote:

    1. tye – “gun running started under Buuuuush. Fact.”

    2. The CBC – throwing a tantrum and walking out of Congress (so they wouldn’t have to on the record voting in favor of Holder).

    3. The WH – Jay Carney telling the press, “look over there, Bush did it” while Obama proclaims executive privilege in order to cover his and Holder’s own skinny butts.

    Personally, I’m voting for number two. It’s a neat trick, simultaneously making a show of support while laying the groundwork for each caucus member to later say, “I was never really with that guy.”

    I realize it’s like choosing which item commonly found in an old garage is the most nuanced; a brick, a log-splitting wedge, or a piece of scrap lumber. But try.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  232. Steve57, both 1 and 3 when Holder is on the record agreeing that the Bush era ATF program was completely different. While tye flat out lies and calls it “a carbon copy of a Bush operation”.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  233. elissa,

    Rush summed it up in a simple blurb this morning: In order for a wiretapping application to even get to a judge to sign off on it, it has to run through and be approved by DOJ.

    It’s hard to be convinced that Holder’s goose isn’t cooked. And, well done at that.

    Dana (292dcf)

  234. Well, it’s not like it was something original the CBC came up with.
    See: WI, TX, etc.
    Anytime the Progs run up against something that will not go well for them, they run away.
    They were the kids who, when losing, always picked up their marbles and ran home to Mommy.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  235. tye has been awarded so many Pinnochio’s that the next Winter Games Ski-Jumping venue will be his face.

    Some people are having way too much fun with this commenter…

    Tye, consider not giving them so much to work with.

    Dana (292dcf)

  236. tye, if anyone else posts because they want to know about the WMD’s found in Iraq, etc., i will join in with what others have already said

    but I have no interest in spending time telling you things you do not want to hear

    One thing though, Duelfer to Sen. Kennedy during Congressional testimony, “He [Hussein] was more dangerous than we thought”, based on things such as disallowed long range missile components, etc.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  237. Doc, you must be making that up, for I can hear tye chanting NANANANANANANANANANANANA!

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  238. MD in Philly, tye does not even realize that the CIA report he referenced is called the Duelfer Report. It is easily found on the CIA website and lists things like old chemical weapons shells found, missile motors and rocket fuel found, biological warfare labs found and biological warfare seed stock found.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  239. But….but…..Iraq had no WMD, the Left said so!
    Would George Soros lie?

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  240. Thanks to Elissa, henceforth, “tye” should be referred to as >>>>>>>>>>> or }}}}}}}}}}}}}}

    JD (ad6f40)

  241. tye has absolutely no interest in Duelfer, Boooosh, or Iraqi WMDs. He just doesn’t want anyone here to focus in on Holder’s perjury and his culpability in F&F.

    elissa (c72fd8)

  242. Thanks, SPQR, but ever since I figured out how the CIA succesfully covered for Valerie Plame without actually lieing, I consider their documents as somewhere between the LATimes and NYT on the reliability scale.

    What I thought was “funny” was when the Iraqi plans for an atomic bomb were ordered taken down from the Internet, kind of like the “smoking atom bomb” to the claim, “Who, us, wanting a nuclear bomb?”

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  243. 237- I don’t know about George Soros… how about Karl Rove? Did ge lie when he admitted their weren’t? The Narrative is getting fuzzy… some of you say that there were wmds and others claim it wasn’t Bush’s fault that he received false information.

    tye (eab943)

  244. Sometime tonight, we all better have more important things to do than continue this thread.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  245. Did ge lie when he admitted their weren’t?

    Could we get a UN translator to help with this.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  246. The expected volumes of WMD’s were not found, not because Bush lied, but because the world’s intelligence communities were wrong or the stuff ended up in Syria via truck convoy while the world dithered.

    Chemical weapons in scattered amounts were found, large amounts of chemicals that could readily be turned into chemical weapons were found, other banned weaponry such as long range missile components were found, samples and supplies for biological weapons were found, such as Crimean-Congo Hemmorhagic Fever Virus buried in the back yard of one of hussein’s top biologists.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  247. It’s nerves. >>>>>>>’s starting to sweat, AD.

    elissa (c72fd8)

  248. From BOTW 6/25….

    Two Papers in One!

    “The House Judiciary Committee did its duty yesterday, voting to cite Harriet Miers, the former White House counsel, and Joshua Bolten, the White House chief of staff, for contempt. The Bush administration has been acting lawlessly in refusing to hand over information that Congress needs to carry out its responsibility to oversee the executive branch and investigate its actions when needed. If the White House continues its obstruction, Congress should use all of the contempt powers at its disposal.”–editorial, New York Times, July 26, 2007

    “The political feud between the White House and Congressional Republicans has now culminated in a House oversight committee vote to cite Attorney General Eric Holder Jr. for criminal contempt. His supposed crime is failing to hand over some documents. . . . The Republicans shamelessly turned what should be a routine matter into a pointless constitutional confrontation.”–editorial, New York Times, June 21, 2012

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  249. tye, so now you are saying that you didn’t read the CIA report you claimed for authority earlier?

    Your incompetence continues.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  250. 243- a tiny typo got ya stumped? Let me guess, you were home schooled?

    What’s up with the NEA jokes? Oh right, you all have problems with people who work for a living.

    tye (eab943)

  251. tye, how many lawns are your schedule today?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  252. 247-patterico dislikes when you speak for him. I dislike it too because you suck at it.

    tye (eab943)

  253. Your comment is incoherent, tye, I didn’t claim to speak for Patterico.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  254. Good god you’re stupid. 247 you said that I claimed something I didn’t claim. How do you function? Seriously?

    tye (eab943)

  255. Tonight – in a two or 3 minutes – ATF agent, who started Fast and Furious? – defends himself in an exclusive interview on the NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams.

    Sammy Finkelman (976d9e)

  256. tye, you are the stupid one. Now you are abandoning your assertions regarding the authority of the Duelfer Report. You claimed above that the CIA report said no WMDs, which is not true, and now you are telling us that those of us who actually read the Duelfer Report are lying. All the product of your utter ignorance.

    You just have no clue what you are talking about. And your comments are just as incoherent as I’d expect from a seventh grader.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  257. 254- no it is you. I didn’t even read your entire statement because I’m afraid it will kill precious brain cells reading your slobbering drivel.

    tye (eab943)

  258. tye, do you even realize that there is not a single person on this website who does not think you a complete blithering idiot?

    Not one.

    You’ve proven your incompetence universally.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  259. Comment by tye — 6/29/2012 @ 1:37 pm

    204- sounds like a rather nuanced argument. Could you concede that the explanation of the left regarding the Holder case may be nuanced?

    If you wanted it to be.

    I don’t know what the left’s explanation is.

    I know the White House explanation: Holder shut down something started in the Bush Administration – never mind why – never mind also there were lots of separate operations and Fast and Furious was a new one – and the subpoena isn’t about what started Fast and Furious but only about what happened later so that is all not important, and there’s some kind of legal impediment to co-operating with the committee, and the Inspector General will explain it all soon.

    Sammy Finkelman (976d9e)

  260. tye, you really are an idiot.

    Duelfer’s report is here:
    https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/general-reports-1/iraq_wmd_2004/index.html

    From the Key Findings:

    Iraq retained some BW-related seed stocks until their discovery after Operation Iraqi
    Freedom (OIF)

    Dr. Rihab Rashid Taha Al ‘Azzawi, head of the bacterial program claims she retained BW seed stocks until early 1992 when she destroyed them. ISG has not found a means of verifying this. Some seed stocks were retained by another Iraqi offi cial until 2003 when they were recovered by ISG.

    There right in the report, WMD found.
    Additionally, Duelfer lists the numbers of chemical weapons shells recovered and distroyed.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  261. From Annex F of the Duelfer Report:

    Beginning in May 2004, ISG recovered a series of chemical weapons from Coalition military units and other sources. A total of 53 munitions have been recovered, all of which appear to have been part of pre-1991 Gulf war stocks based on their physical condition and residual components.

    The most interesting discovery has been a 152mm binary Sarin artillery projectile—containing a 40 percent concentration of Sarin—which insurgents attempted to use as an Improvised Explosive Device (IED). The existence of this binary weapon not only raises questions about the number of viable chemical weapons remaining in Iraq and raises the possibility that a larger number of binary, long-lasting chemical weapons still exist.

    Again, WMD found.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  262. Oh lord… um… nope.

    tye (eab943)

  263. You see, tye, the list of people more knowledgeable than you on the subject is rather large. I actually read the Duelfer Report – unlike you – and don’t rely on the claims of partisan hacks like MSNBC.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  264. Yes, tye, I’ve read the Duelfer Report enough to find what I’m looking for in it in seconds.

    You can’t find your dick in hours.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  265. Two Papers in One!

    “The House Judiciary Committee did its duty yesterday, voting to cite Harriet Miers, the former White House counsel, and Joshua Bolten, the White House chief of staff, for contempt. The Bush administration has been acting lawlessly in refusing to hand over information that Congress needs to carry out its responsibility to oversee the executive branch and investigate its actions when needed. If the White House continues its obstruction, Congress should use all of the contempt powers at its disposal.”–editorial, New York Times, July 26, 2007

    “The political feud between the White House and Congressional Republicans has now culminated in a House oversight committee vote to cite Attorney General Eric Holder Jr. for criminal contempt. His supposed crime is failing to hand over some documents. . . . The Republicans shamelessly turned what should be a routine matter into a pointless constitutional confrontation.”–editorial, New York Times, June 21, 2012

    Comment by AD-RtR/OS! — 6/29/2012 @ 3:18 pm

    Let’s play “one of these things is not like the other.”

    Can anyone spot the difference between these two types of “oversight?”

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  266. And simultaneously point out the glaringly obvious; why the “Old Grey Lady” is a “Clueless Old Socialist Slut?”

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  267. ZOMFGWTFBBQ. Step away from the bong, “tye”

    We know this for a fact – “tye” is not only stupid, but functionally dishonest, and incapable of self-reflection or shame or embarrassment. Nothing more than a MSNBC footsoldier.

    JD (ad6f40)

  268. When I said wmds I meant wmds.

    tye (eab943)

  269. Chemical weapons are WMDs. Biological weapons are WMDs. They have been considered WMDs for decades and have been the subject of international treaties since before you were born.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  270. WMDs continued to be found after the end of the work of the Iraq Survey Group as reported by wikileaks docs.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  271. So much for tye’s great store of knowledge … not to mention integrity.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  272. When I said wmds I meant wmds.

    The correct term for “weapons of mass destruction” is NBC weapons: Nuclear, Biological, or Chemical.

    Any chemical weapon is a WMD.

    But don’t worry, tye. I’m working on a time machine. As soon as I finish it, I’ll go back to 2003 and take care of this Bush issue. But you won’t be around to enjoy it, because I’m also going back and making sure your parents never breed. Your non-existence will be just as meaningless as your current existence, but at least you’ll have the pleasure to know it’s for a good cause.

    Now, see if you can stick to the topic of this post: Eric Holder and Fast & Furious.

    Chuck Bartowski (775c14)

  273. OK, nobody’s playing “spot the difference,” but this is an important point about “The Old Grey Prostitute.”

    First from 2007:

    From BOTW 6/25….

    Two Papers in One!

    “The House Judiciary Committee did its duty yesterday, voting to cite Harriet Miers, the former White House counsel, and Joshua Bolten, the White House chief of staff, for contempt. The Bush administration has been acting lawlessly in refusing to hand over information that Congress needs to carry out its responsibility to oversee the executive branch and investigate its actions when needed. If the White House continues its obstruction, Congress should use all of the contempt powers at its disposal.”–editorial, New York Times, July 26, 2007

    Spot that, boys and girls? Nobody on the editorial board ever, in their whole lives, attended a grade school-level class on the Constitution. They think, when a Republican is in the WH, Congress has not only the responsibility but the authority to “oversee the executive branch.” Two separate, co-equal branches of government. But not when Dubya’s in the WH. That’s all it takes for the Old Grey Socialist Dumpster Humper” to conclude the executive is subordinate to the legislative branch.

    Blissfully ignorant that the office of the President isn’t beholden to the legislature, but to the Constitution. That’s the document that created the office.

    And apparently its an affront to the legislative branch’s supreme authority that executive privilege might be claimed to cover communications the WH counsel and COS might have with the President or on behalf of the President.

    Two advisers so close to the President that if they aren’t covered by executive privilege, no one is.

    “The political feud between the White House and Congressional Republicans has now culminated in a House oversight committee vote to cite Attorney General Eric Holder Jr. for criminal contempt. His supposed crime is failing to hand over some documents. . . . The Republicans shamelessly turned what should be a routine matter into a pointless constitutional confrontation.”–editorial, New York Times, June 21, 2012

    You can put your Constitution under a microscope and you won’t see the Department of Justice mentioned anywhere.

    It’s not in the Constitution. The position of Attorney General was created later, was once a one-man office, and functioned pretty much as the White House counsel. The executive branch started to acquire legal functions that were beyond the ability of the one-man office to accomplish, so eventually Congress apportioned money for a staff, and sometime later an executive branch department was created called the Department of Justice.

    Created by an act of Congress. And Congress could pass an act tomorrow eliminating the entire department and Obama could only cry in his Grey Goose and Cranberry.

    And the “Old Grey Hippie Girl who was Traded from One Flower Power-Painted VW Van Back During the Summer of Love in Exchange for Hits of LSD but that was Long Ago and She Don’t Look So Hot Now” thinks the guy that Congress could fire tomorrow along with his entire department doesn’t owe Congress the documents it’s demanding from him.

    And the guy who works in an office building at least several blocks away from the WH and his communications with his staff in that building and as far away as Phoenix Az somehow have sufficient proximity to the President to be covered by executive privilege, or rather their internal departmental communications and quite possibly with advisers in the WH are covered by the deliberative privilege.

    But Dubya’s closest advisers in the WH didn’t get get the benefit of the doubt when it came to executive privilege. It’s not even a close call for “The Old Grey Viet Cong Camp Follower.”

    Is there any doubt that the most ignorant people you’ll ever meet get their news exclusively or almost exclusively from that rag?

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  274. I have to admit I was deliberately setting up Tye for the emotional reaction when I noted the Iraqi WMDs.

    I don’t know why, but that strain of troll is devoutly committed to the notion that Iraq, a country with a terrible record on WMD programs, being completely free of them. This is ridiculous and proven untrue, but they really really need to believe it.

    Silly of me to poke him like this, but nobody’s perfect.

    Dustin (330eed)

  275. Dustin, its comical how enthusiastic tye is at providing concrete proof of the utter ignorance with which he goes through life.

    There seems to be no subject in which tye is without an opinion … an opinion based on a completely false version of the facts.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  276. Now that DOJ states that they won’t prosecute Holder, the House will have to appoint someone to prosecute the contempt, but we know what the next step ought to be.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  277. DOJ states that they won’t prosecute Holder

    It’s so nice to have a government free of any appearance of impropriety. The swamp is truly drained.

    Dustin (330eed)

  278. McCarthy’s piece is interesting, he shows how Holder has been caught lying:

    Chairman Issa’s disclosures, as reported by Mr. Dinan, appear to put the lie to much of what Holder and his minions have been claiming. That includes the bit about “summaries”; quite apart from the extreme unlikelihood that wiretap application summaries were top officials’ only source for Fast and Furious information, it appears that even the summaries describe the gunwalking tactic:
    Advertisement

    The summary of a March 2010 wiretap application shows that federal agents repeatedly lost track of guns they knew were being trafficked back to cartels in Mexico — a violation of Justice Department policy that should have raised red flags with top department officials who signed off on the wiretaps, said Mr. Issa, California Republican and chairman of the oversight committee that is looking into the operation. Mr. Issa introduced the summary as part of the House’s debate Thursday before lawmakers held a historic vote to to hold Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. in contempt of Congress.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  279. I don’t know if you’ve seen the Roll Call article on the letter about the wiretap affidavits that Issa entered into the Congressional Record during the contempt vote, SPQR, but if you haven’t found it elsewhere the link is up at post #172.

    Velly intelestink!

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  280. After reading the McCarthy piece and the Roll Call article, you may want to read what’s up over atDoug Ross @ Journal. He has excerpts of the Congressional Record from yesterday’s contempt proceedings and it paints an ugly picture for Holder.

    …The use of federal wire intercepts requires a significant amount of case-related information to be sent to senior Department officials for review and approval. All applications for federal wiretaps are authorized under the authority of the Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division

    …A central aim of our investigation has been to find out why and how such a dangerous plan could have been conceived, approved, and implemented. Who in ATF and the Justice Department knew about the volume of guns being purchased? Who approved of the case at various stages as it unfolded? Under whose authority did this occur? Who could have—and should have—stopped it? By closely examining this disastrous program, our Committee hopes to prevent similar reckless operations…

    …The Committee has obtained a copy of a Fast and Furious wiretap application, dated
    March 15, 2010. The application includes a memorandum dated March 10, 2010, from Assistant Attorney General of the Criminal Division Lanny A. Breuer to Paul M. O’Brien, Director, Office of Enforcement Operations, authorizing the wiretap application on behalf of the Attorney General…

    …Before the Senate Judiciary Committee on November 8, 2011, the Attorney General testified:

    …I don’t think the wiretap applications—I’ve not seen—I’ve not seen them. But I don’t know—I don’t have any information that indicates that those wiretap applications had anything in them that talked about the tactics that have made this such a bone of contention and have legitimately raised the concern of members of Congress, as well as those of us in the Justice Department. I—I’d be surprised if the tactics themselves about gun walking were actually contained in those—in those applications. I have not seen them, but I would be surprise[d] [if that] were the case…

    ..At a hearing before our Committee on February 2, 2012, the Attorney General also denied that any information relating to tactics appeared in the wiretap affidavits… He testified:

    …I think, first off, there is no indication that Mr. Breuer or my former deputy were aware of the tactics that were employed in this matter until everybody I think became aware of them…

    …Contrary to the Attorney General’s statements, the enclosed wiretap affidavit contains clear information that agents were willfully allowing known straw buyers to acquire firearms for drug cartels and failing to interdict them—in some cases even allowing them to walk to Mexico. In particular, the affidavit explicitly describes the most controversial tactic of all: abandoning surveillance of known straw purchasers, resulting in the failure to interdict firearms…

    There’s more at Doug Ross @ Journal, plus a link to the Congressional Record if you want to read more.

    But the bottom line is that McCarthy has been saying for months that Holder has been denying that anyone at DoJ in DC would have known the details of Operation Fast & Furious. And McCarthy has been saying that’s BS because those details are required by main justice in OCDETF cases to contemplate even making a case an OCDETF case or issue wiretap authorization.

    Now we have evidence that the information about gun walking was in those wiretap requests that main justice signed off on.

    In another article, not linked here today, I recall McCarthy discussing how AG Holder had been scheduled to go to Pheonix (or some place related for F&F for a big press conference about F&F. But then Brian Terry was murdered, and they canceled it. But McCarthy pointed out that before an AG contemplates going to one of these dog and pony shows for the press, he is personally briefed on the operation for months. He doesn’t want to show up and look like Geraldo Rivera breaking into Al Capone’s secret vault to find. . . nothing.

    He wants to make sure his field offices can come up with the goods, what the goods are, an how they’re getting the goods.

    This looks ugly for Holder, but it may get entertaining for the rest of us if the House can shake something loose this Summer. If not, after November.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  281. SPQR, it could just be that the DoJ is nervous enough that if figures it has to retaliate against those whistleblowers.

    For the encouragement of others.

    That’s exactly what I had in mind when I said in my earlier comment, “it may get entertaining for the rest of us if the House can shake something loose this Summer.”

    A lot of people would have had to have know what pies Holder had his fingers in, what aspects of F&F he was being briefed about (such as the briefers, who I’m sure are working the field office out of Nome until this thing blows over), etc.

    A few more whistleblowers and Holder is toast.

    So of course they’re cracking skulls to keep people in line. But it’s not a good sign. For them.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  282. Kinda surprised the DOJ has already confirmed that they will not be prosecuting Proboscis Magnus.

    Expect Issa to file a civil case by Monday noon.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  283. So what happens when Issa spots the drone tail?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  284. “…there is not a single person on this website who does not think you a complete blithering idiot?”

    SPQR, I am that one person; for I know that tye is an incomplete blithering idiot – a work in progress, so to speak.
    A few more weeks like this one, and he will be reduced to 24/7 thumb-sucking.

    AD-RtR/OS! (2bb434)

  285. _____________________________________________

    Is there any doubt that the most ignorant people you’ll ever meet get their news exclusively or almost exclusively from that rag?

    I was perusing hardline copies of the New York Times several weeks ago, noticing how many of its pages were devoid of much or any advertising. I recall its Sunday magazine once being quite thick, chock-a-block with pages and pages of ads. But the ones I saw recently were quite thin.

    I remember Alec Baldwin, a devotee of leftism run amok (and therefore undoubtedly a big suck-up to the NYT), mentioning not too long ago that — unlike in the past — he notices stacks of the NY Times sitting around various locations of Manhattan unsold and unread.

    I do admit to feeling some schadenfreude for a blatantly one-sided, Occupy-Wall-Street-sympathizing paper to not be rolling in the dough at it once did, certainly during this era of Barack “Goddamn America” Obama and various other forms of “progressive” idiocy. Nothing worse than when limousine liberals (eg, the New York Times) somehow manage to be rewarded in spite of their smug, ersatz compassion, greed masquerading as generosity, and supposed but actually hollow tolerance.

    Mark (90205b)

  286. 276- it was proven untrue? Is that why every single major news source reports that your assertion on wmds is complete and total fantasy? So on one side we’ve got “dustin” and a handful of his wingdinger friends and on the other we’ve got everyone else in the country.

    tye (eab943)

  287. 289. BHO and Holder knew 1600-odd weapons, purchased under DHS auspices, walked into Mexico to be traced only when they turned up at crime scenes.

    Wiretap orders authored by DOJ prove this is so and assertion of Executive privilege is an admission of this fact.

    Mexico has determined north of 200 of its citizens died with these weapons in attendance.

    When a tree falls in the forest and know one hears you’ve decided there’s no ‘sound’. Congratulations, simp.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  288. “Wiretap orders…of this fact”

    Ha! In your fantasy world! While you’re in fantasy land say hello to Iraq’s wmds, bush’s (43…41 was an honorable service member) military service, and the jobs romney has “created”.

    tye (eab943)

  289. “tye” is still on his bender. Apparently lying, squirrels, and look something shiny is all he has got.

    JD (ad6f40)

  290. tye, I pointed to the Duelfer Report. I quoted from the Duelfer report. You are the clown.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  291. The quote you pulled was weak.

    tye (eab943)

  292. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12115-2004Oct6.html

    Read that. Ouch! Scathing to your point.

    tye (eab943)

  293. The fact that you keep glomming on news reports instead of actually reading the Duelfer Report (which you falsely claimed above supported your point) tells us all we needed to know, tye. I also pointed to a Wired story about Wikileaks docs showing recovery of more chemical weapons after the Duelfer report.

    The bottom line tye is that you are a pathetic clown who thinks its more important to read what MSNBC says a document contains than to read the original document.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  294. Poor tye. He’s been assigned by his masters to troll this dying thread for another day– and now that it’s so obvious what he’s up to almost nobody’s coming around to play with him anymore. Them’s the breaks tye. But on the bright side, having a slow troll day may help you clear out some of the cobwebs, misconceptions and other icky stuff that has accumulated in that pre-programmed head of yours. Maybe give you a chance to read up on some current events. Have a nice day.

    elissa (73bddc)

  295. For those interested,

    In my quest to find as much information on Fast & Furious as I could find, though not limited to the following, I found two great sources. The first is a compilation of reports from PJMedia done by a 15 year journalist and a blogger. The 2nd is a YouTube Channel of videos connected with the House Oversight and Reform Committee. The opening video of SC Rep. Trey Gowdy explaining Executive Privilege is a must see.

    http://storify.com/PJMedia_com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-fast-and-furious

    http://www.youtube.com/user/oversightandreform?feature=watch

    Brandon (d777af)

  296. I read your quote. It is ridiculous that you would stick your hooks into one tiny part of a huge document that does not prove what you think it does. And wikileaks? You’re so cute when you’re stupid.

    tye (eab943)

  297. those are good links, Brandon. But the story was originally broken by Sipsy Street Irregulars and War on Guns (David Codrea).

    http://waronguns.blogspot.com/

    David Codrea’s guide to F&F:
    http://www.examiner.com/article/a-journalist-s-guide-to-project-gunwalker-part-one

    And it all started with revelations on the ATF dissidents blog:
    http://www.cleanupatf.org/

    SPQR (26be8b)

  298. Also, for those who still believe the Fortune report, or who have accepted the recent 11th hour mantra from the MSM that gunwalking never actually occurred, based on that Fortune report, Breitbart released the following yesterday:

    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/06/29/congressional-record-wiretaps

    It covers the Congressional Record submission by Darrell Issa concerning the ATF wiretaps, which suggest that agents were completely aware that straw purchasers they were tracking were smuggling guns to Mexico, and they intentionally failed to arrest them.

    Brandon (d777af)

  299. “tye” and Roger Simon are in the same club – who cares about this, LOL.

    JD (318f81)

  300. Iraq destroyed its chemical weapons stockpile in 1991, and only a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions were discovered by the ISG.

    This is what you’re hanging your hat on? Meanwhile you’re flipping your sh*t over an operation in which guns showed up at crime scenes (not proof that they were explicitly used in those crimes) at which at least a few hundred thousand less people were killed compared to Bush’s railroad into war lies. Absolutely we should investigate Holder but don’t for one second think that your refusal to acknowledge one while calling for full disclosure of the other doesn’t constitute a major hypocrisy of you and your kind.

    tye (eab943)

  301. Okay, tye. Since your response to every question about “Holder, F&F, refusal to release documents” is “Bush, Iraq, WMD’s” I’m now done with you.

    I asked you the following questions:
    – Go on, let’s hear it. What is “the explanation of the left”?
    Comment by Icy — 6/29/2012 @ 2:31 pm

    And while we’re at it, have you come up with that explanation for how the House engaged in “over-reach” and conducted a “witch hunt”?
    Comment by Icy — 6/29/2012 @ 2:35 pm

    All you have come up with is ‘you guys are hypocrites because your side has done [in your estimation] worse things.’ And so you repeat your false and misleading assertions about Boosh ad nauseum, because you have absolutely no valid justifications whatsoever for the actions taken by Holder/DOJ/White House in the F&F matter. None.

    If you would like to prove me wrong, if you would like to engage in a REAL discussion regarding the topic of this thread — the actions taken by the Executive Branch of the federal government during the current administration — then go for it. I wonder if you can.

    Icy (9332cf)

  302. tye, again you make up stuff. You are a brazen liar.

    At the scene of the killing of Brian Terry were two guns tied by serial number to be guns the ATF intentionally allowed be sold to a straw purchaser.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  303. Icy – it won’t, because it can’t. It is too stupid, and too dishonest.

    JD (318f81)

  304. Meanwhile you’re flipping your sh*t over an operation in which guns showed up at crime scenes (not proof that they were explicitly used in those crimes)

    — Case in point ^^^. “Pardon me, old chap, but you appear to have brought a gun to a knife-fight. Be a good fellow and check your weapon at reception, will you?”

    Icy (9332cf)

  305. The two guns found were not ruled out as being the gun that fired the bullet that killed Terry, despite ATF denials, according to LA Times story quoting FBI reports.

    We have an ongoing coverup by the ATF, the DOJ and high Obama administration officials currently. And we have illegal refusal to produce subpoenaed documents by the Obama administration.

    That’s the bottom line.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  306. The guns were specifically sold to the smugglers at the explicit instructions of the ATF, as the LA Times story relates, and other documentation provided to Issa by whistleblowers confirms.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  307. Thanks, SPQR.

    I did state: “not limited to….”

    Also some great links. Dissent is really one of the main reasons for the liberties we have. Bravo for dissenters/critics of government agencies.

    Brandon (d777af)

  308. “Not ruled out” is proof to you? Oh that’s right. I’m talking to the guy who counts old decrepit and no longer in service weapons factories as proof of a flourishing weapons program.

    tye (eab943)

  309. Holder has been caught in brazen lies, and so has tye, so we can see that they are natural allies as liars.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  310. Let’s contrast:

    SPQR – produces truthful statements backed by actual sources.

    tye – produces lies, incompetent references to documents he’s never read and does not understand.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  311. 313 I’m glad that an unbiased 3rd party cleared that up for everyone.

    tye (eab943)

  312. More contrast:

    SPQR – cites to original report – Credible.

    tye – cites to MSNBC after being pointed to original report – Clown.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  313. JD, Dennis Prager was making the point on his radio show yesterday that, for the Left, lying IS like breathing, because they are the ones that “care”; therefore, in order to make their point the ends ALWAYS justify the means.

    Make up global warming data? Sure! We CARE bout the environment.
    Press Secretary lies, just 24 hours after the SCOTUS decision, about the mandate being a tax? Sure! We CARE about every American having health care.

    Conservatives try to do the right thing; Liberals try to ‘make things right’ — a distinction with a huge difference.

    Icy (9332cf)

  314. 312. Holder has been caught in brazen lies, and so has tye, so we can see that they are natural allies as liars.

    Comment by SPQR — 6/30/2012 @ 10:32 am

    How do we know tye isn’t Holder?

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  315. The truth is not biased. You are a serial fabricator. Frankly, I just think you are dummerer than a sack of Andrews, and just spit out whatever nonsense you get at MSNBC/thinkregress, etc …. It is clear you cannot or will not process information that runs counter to your leftist ideals, as witnesses by your refusal to read contrary sources cited for you, or to lie about the findings, or to just simply make shlt up.

    JD (318f81)

  316. The truth is that the weapons program was dead. The report indicates that. But let’s read some more refereeing from unbiased spqr… 3…2…1…

    tye (eab943)

  317. Bye, tye.

    Icy (9332cf)

  318. Are you surprised, Icy?!

    JD (318f81)

  319. Did “tye” ever cite the law that makes it illegal to release the subpoenaed documents? Or acknowledge the fundamental differences, plural, between Wide Reciever and F&F? Or explain the nuanced position of leftist opposition? Or pull it’s head out of it’s arse? Or apologize for it’s vile smear of Laura Bush? Didn’t think so.

    JD (318f81)

  320. “Iraq destroyed its chemical weapons stockpile in 1991, and only a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions were discovered by the ISG.”

    tye – BS. Prove that claim.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  321. “One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line.”
        President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998.

    “If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction program.”
        President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.

    “Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face.”
        Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998.

    “He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983.”
        Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

    “[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs.”
        Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998.

    “Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.”
        Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.

    “Hussein has … chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies.”
        Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.

    “There is no doubt that . Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies.”
        Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, Dec, 5, 2001.

    “We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them.”
        Sen. Carl Levin (d, MI), Sept. 19, 2002.

    “We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.”
        Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

    “Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.”
        Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

    “We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seing and developing weapons of mass destruction.”
        Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002.

    “The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons…”
        Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002.

    “I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force — if necessary — to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.”
        Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002.

    “There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years . We also should remember we have alway s underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction.”
        Sen. Jay Rockerfeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002,

    “He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do.”
        Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002.

    “In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.”
        Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

    “We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction. “[W]ithout question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime … He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. And now he has continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction … So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real …
        Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003.

    JD (318f81)

  322. Icy,

    Make up global warming data? Sure! We CARE bout the environment.
    Press Secretary lies, just 24 hours after the SCOTUS decision, about the mandate being a tax? Sure! We CARE about every American having health care.

    Exactly! And part of the lie is the sophistry by which it is told: fudged hockey stick graphs, re-imagined statistics and history, consensus dropping, legal shuffling, narrative doctoring, media and educational control etc., all shuffled together with the primary emotional appeal that causes it all to “make sense” to those who fail to do their own critical thinking.

    Brandon (d777af)

  323. 323-read the report.

    tye (eab943)

  324. Not surprised; just saddened. All I can say is Thank God for Leviticus! the ONE left-leaning commenter on this site that actually engages in REAL debate.

    Icy (9332cf)

  325. Read the report? Really?! You have demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have not and will not do the same.

    JD (318f81)

  326. Aphrael does.

    JD (318f81)

  327. http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2004_11/Duelfer

    Duelfer himself testified that weapon stocks did not exist. Stop, you’re embarrassing yourselves.

    tye (eab943)

  328. Link to his actual words and report as compared to linking to a sexproggie activist organisation.

    JD (318f81)

  329. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,134625,00.html

    I know faux news is kind of liberal…

    tye (eab943)

  330. Point taken, JD. But it seems that for every one of them we have three like tye — or that college kid, Tillman (“health insurance and car insurance are exectly the same thing because … well, because they both have the word ‘insurance’ in them; that’s why!”) that was bugging us the other day.

    Apparently, they’re only being told what to think. I guess it’s a waste of time to debate when you know you’re right.

    Icy (9332cf)

  331. tye @ 330 – Depending on after the fact rather than contemporaneous analysis once again. Typical regurgitard behavior.

    “22 Jan 1998 Following a visit to Iraq, the Executive Chairman reports to the Council that, despite the Council’s Statement on the need for unrestricted access to all sites, the Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq continues to assert that Iraq would not permit access to eight so-called Presidential sites (S/1998/58).

    Early Feb Two technical evaluation meetings (TEMS) take place in Baghdad, reviewing 1998 the position with respect to the chemical weapons agent VX. and missile warheads. The report of the outcome of the meetings is submitted to the Council (document S/1998/176). Despite Iraq’s assertions and it having had a full opportunity to present its views on all matters pertaining to the two issues, the team of UNSCOM international experts conclude unanimously that Iraq has still not provided sufficient information for the Commission to conclude that Iraq had undertaken all the disarmament steps required of it in these areas. The Commission’s experts provide the Council with an oral briefing of the outcome on these two TEMS in March 1998.”

    http://www.un.org/Depts/unscom/Chronology/chronologyframe.htm

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  332. tye – The equivalent of your comment is saying if I had advance knowledge of next Wednesday night’s winning Lotto numbers, I should should buy a ticket. But since I don’t have knowledge of the winning numbers until after the fact, I will use that after the fact knowledge anyway to second guess my decision not to buy a Lotto ticket because I am irredeemably stupid.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  333. Commenters who do not acknowledge thst Bush railroaded us into war with some questionable statements if not blatant lies are not “left leaning”.

    tye (eab943)

  334. Commenters who do not acknowledge thst Bush railroaded us into war with some questionable statements if not blatant lies are not “left leaning”.

    Well that’s certainly true. I’m a commenter who does not acknowledge that Bush railroaded us into a war with some questionable statements, etc…. and I’m not “left leaning.”

    So what’s your point?

    Brandon (d777af)

  335. Read recent posts in the thread sweetheart

    tye (eab943)

  336. Brandon – it is proud of it’s asshattery.

    JD (ad6f40)

  337. Respected bloghost (and tech experts) – on other blogs/websites, there exists the capability to have posts by specific-troll commenters show up such that, to read them, it takes an extra mouse-click … the comments are there, not censored, merely kept out of the direct sight of reasonable folk … anyone who wishes to read ’em can do so, very easily …

    Does the software used here permit such a feature to be activated ?

    (Personal note: I respect Patterico for his amazingly-infrequent use of the ban-hammer (and especially his restraint in the face of some of my truly pun-gent comments))

    Alasdair (2cd241)

  338. TrollHammer. I don’t have a link, but others have posted it here previously.

    JD (ad6f40)

  339. Brandon – it is proud of it’s asshattery.

    I guess so. Had to do a double take to figure out what was actually said.

    Brandon (d777af)

  340. Notice that tye is finally starting, albeit only a bit at a time, to confront the truth – that US forces discovered WMD in Iraq.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  341. SPQR,

    You probably have better sources than what I’m able to drum up, but I found the following to be quite revealing regarding Saddam’s nuclear aspirations; especially as it pertains to his behavioral character. I believe it was written sometime after 1998 given internal dates; but the document itself isn’t dated.

    http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/QA/19635.html

    Also, the late atheist apologist Christopher Hitchens has an interesting perspective:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcvgAMnMne0

    Before anyone charges “Yes, but our reasons for invading were based on lies,” I say “well, not quite.” They were based on a degree of false data, but not all the data was false.

    The media tended to focus on the “absence of actual WMDs” as evidence that there was no data at all. But as the old saying goes, “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”

    Not only can the “absence of actual WMDs” be debated, but that issue was not the only data in consideration among the intelligence community and the Bush administration.

    The MSM, ever since the OJ trial, and perhaps long before, has been doing just a wee bit of sloganeering: “If the glove don’t fit, you must acquit.” They certainly did that sort of thing with the WMD narrative on Iraq, and those who got their news solely from such mantra-heavy media, tended to believe it.

    Hitchens makes the case (elsewhere – I can’t find it) that while they never found in particular nuclear weapons following the invasion in 2003, several Iraqis as well as Westerners were able to assess that Saddam still had nuclear aspirations, and that he was simply giving the international community the impression that he was complying only to get them off his back for a while so that he could continue at a later date. Whatever he was doing worked. I dare say that if we had not removed Saddam 9 years ago, there might not be much left of the Middle East, and that’s a more frieghtening thought than the consequences we’ve suffered as a result of doing the right thing.

    The first link suggests that while nuclear scientists did defect from Iraq at various times, many of them were lured back through promises of money for continuing with the program. So there was certainly nothing stopping Saddam from quickly gathering together those he needed to continue the program once the inspectors left him alone due to feigned compliance.

    Also, Syria might hold some answers to some of the questions that were not answered after the invasion concerning WMDs. Syria’s on the verge of collapse, so we can only hope for some revelation on the matter.

    And yeah, I’m a Christian theist pointing out some agreement with an atheist apologist. But I don’t tend to consider diametrically opposed theological perspectives with subjects that have less to do with theology.

    Brandon (d777af)

  342. 343- absolutely not spqr. I’m shocked that the dozen or so sources I’ve linked to haven’t convinced you. Instead you quoted a tiny part of the huge report in which some guy had marijuana seeds in his garage.

    tye (0b3fa9)

  343. From a liberal source:

    http://thehill.com/homenews/house/235715-issa-reveals-sealed-wiretaps-from-doj-mole

    The docs prove that Holder and Cummings are liars, that the DOJ was aware of the Obama 2009 initiated program announced by Big Sis, was killing people to save them.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  344. 345. Stye rebuttal: La, la, la I can’t hear you. Come back when you grow up, tyke.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  345. Tye,

    Saddam said had them, tens of thousands of dead women and children proved beyond all doubt he had them.

    We went to war to make sure there never ever was more “proof” that Saddam had any more

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  346. It is a good thing that the war against the people who actually caused 9/11 took a backseat to Bush’s commandeering of our services to settle a family vendetta.

    tye (0b3fa9)

  347. tye, if you weren’t such a moron, you might have read the AUMF-2001, and AUMF-2002, that form the foundation for why we are engaged in a War on AQ, and its enablers.

    AD-RtR/OS! (2bb434)

  348. “tye’s” end-stage BDS is flaring up. Ugly.

    JD (ad6f40)

  349. 350-I forgot who I am talking to… the wing dingers. So, I guess my job is to disprove that AQ and Iraq are the same and that Saddam planned 9/11? I’ve got my work cut out for me. First let’s start with the premise that Michael Savage’s mother sniffed glue while she was pregnant with him. Next let’s assume that everything Limbaugh tells you isn’t gospel.

    tye (0b3fa9)

  350. It’s a day ending in y, isn’t it J.D.

    narciso (ee31f1)

  351. Raise your hand if you knew that Iraq and Afghanistan are not the same country.

    tye (0b3fa9)

  352. Saddam said had them, tens of thousands of dead women and children proved beyond all doubt he had them.
    We went to war to make sure there never ever was more “proof” that Saddam had any more
    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 7/1/2012 @ 5:24 am

    — EPWJ, for tye the only good Kurd is one that did not die at the hands of U.S. forces.

    Icy (c18630)

  353. This is one of those, who authorized the wiretaps;

    http://www.911familiesforamerica.org/?p=4203

    narciso (ee31f1)

  354. “It is a good thing that the war against the people who actually caused 9/11 took a backseat to Bush’s commandeering of our services to settle a family vendetta.

    Comment by tye — 7/1/2012 @ 5:46 am

    Another extraordinarily stupid lie on tye’s part. He can’t read a calendar any better than he can read his seventh grade report card – which he got last week. We began operations in Afghanistan in fall of 2001. We began operations in Iraq almost a year and a half later.

    tye thinks that an operation that began a year and a half earlier is in the “backseat”.

    What a moronic lie.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  355. Supplies in Afghanistan dwindled because Bush wanted to settle the score fir daddy. Fact.

    tye (0b3fa9)

  356. For*

    tye (0b3fa9)

  357. So, I guess my job is to disprove that AQ and Iraq are the same and that Saddam planned 9/11?

    More of tye’s lies, he makes up crap, pretends we believe it, and then rolls his eyes.

    Just more of tye’s lies.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  358. tye, not fact. Lie.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  359. Well the Constanza rule always obtains.

    narciso (ee31f1)

  360. 360- because your arguments don’t make any sense if you don’t believe this stuff.

    tye (0b3fa9)

  361. About Mr. Cole,

    below is an op-ed published by Mr. Cole just two days before the first anniversary of 9/11, in which he compares 9/11 to drug crimes, ordinary murder, rape and mafia-type crimes, saying that the “war on drugs” is actually “a longer term and far more devastating disaster for our country in terms of the number of people affected…” Ironically, Mr. Cole says that the only factor which distinguishes those crimes and the “tragedies of Sept. 11″ is that “foreign organizations, possibly even foreign governments, were involved in the planning, funding and carrying out of the Sept. 11 attacks.”

    Further, Mr. Cole has gone on record opposing military commissions for any detainees, stating that military commissions are an inferior form of justice which do not provide defendants with adequate due process protections. In light of the fact that the Obama administration continues to drag its feet on an announcement regarding the forum and venue for the trial of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and the other admitted 9/11 conspirators, Mr. Cole’s nomination is an alarming signal. The public is overwhelmingly opposed to holding these trials in New York federal court. Clearly, the administration needs to hear from us again.

    narciso (ee31f1)

  362. And before that;

    So who is James Cole? As a partner at the law firm of Bryan Cave, he represented(the late) Prince Naif Bin Abdulaziz Al Saud, a member of the Saudi royal family and one of the defendants in the 9/11 lawsuit filed on behalf of 9/11 Families against the government of Saudi Arabia and other Saudi individuals by the law firm of Motley Rice. Prince Naif ran the Al Haramain Foundation, a Saudi charity designated in 2004 by the U.S. Treasury Department as a facilitator of terrorism which diverted charitable funds to Al Qaeda both before and after Sept.11, 2001.

    Additionally, in 2006, Mr. Cole was also appointed as an independent overseer of insurance giant AIG. The whistleblower non-profit, Government Accountability Project, has come out against his nomination due to the gross irregularities that happened while he was charged with oversight responsibilities prior to its 2008 collapse. See http://www.whistleblower.org/blog/31-2010/529-aig-monitor-james-cole-wrong-choice-for-deputy-attorney-general

    narciso (ee31f1)

  363. So, I guess my job is to disprove that AQ and Iraq are the same and that Saddam planned 9/11?

    No, and it’s amazing that you’d bring up this red herring. (Okay, not so amazing, because you’re incapable of intellectual honesty.) In any case, read the Authorization for the Use of Military Force in Iraq. It doesn’t say anything about 9/11. It does say that Iraq was a key battleground in the war against terrorism. It also says that Iraq had given cash and logistical support to international terrorist organizations.

    Chuck Bartowski (775c14)

  364. To be very specific, Iraq’s Mukharabat did maintain contacts with the Gamaa Islamiya, Hekmatyar’s HIG,
    and other Islamist groups, as the tribesman, found
    out in Anbar and elsewhere, the scorpion will always sting you.

    narciso (ee31f1)

  365. Why are you guys re-fighting the Iraq war with the troll?

    I mean, if you’ve got the time to kill, feel free. But it’s like you’re arguing the Civil War with one of he Sons of the Confederacy.

    Tye, you lost. You lost years ago. Bush, Cheney, Rove, all of them will die peacefully in their beds as old men.

    And you’ll still be bitter over it. Just as you are soon to be bitter over Holder’s downfall.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  366. Steve57, why? Oother than exposing tye’s infinite capacity for making up stuff and infinite capacity for displaying his own ignorance …

    no reason.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  367. Off topic but the Obama campaign spamming email account sent me an email over Michelle Obama’s name with the following subject line:

    “Your seat on Barack’s bus ”

    I think I hurt myself laughing again.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  368. C’mon guys, you know ty(k)e has a real problem with words with so many consonnants, and hyphens.
    His little head will begin to hurt, and throb.

    On another matter, James Cole is just another in a long line of Richard Craniums that this administration feels at-home with.
    It’s only a miracle that Leon Panetta was put over at DoD, and not Bill Ayers.

    AD-RtR/OS! (2bb434)

  369. “Your seat on Barack’s bus ”

    Is it bolted to the underside of the floorboard?

    AD-RtR/OS! (2bb434)

  370. 369. Steve57, why? Oother than exposing tye’s infinite capacity for making up stuff and infinite capacity for displaying his own ignorance …

    no reason.

    Comment by SPQR — 7/1/2012 @ 2:42 pm

    I wasn’t criticizing, mind you, when I asked why. I was just curious about what you wanted to get out of it.

    Proceed, sir.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  371. 371. C’mon guys, you know ty(k)e has a real problem with words with so many consonnants, and hyphens.
    His little head will begin to hurt, and throb.

    On another matter, James Cole is just another in a long line of Richard Craniums that this administration feels at-home with.
    It’s only a miracle that Leon Panetta was put over at DoD, and not Bill Ayers.

    Comment by AD-RtR/OS! — 7/1/2012 @ 2:51 pm

    I believe Teh Won was holding Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn back for that court-packing scheme that had CJRo so sceert he peed his pants and upheld ObamaTaxaFinaPaloozaCare.

    Steve57 (c441a6)

  372. Steve57, amusing myself is my only goal, good sir.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  373. 368- and you think Obama will die in prison? Obama will go down in history as having done more for this country than the jelly-bean head and the man who vacationed while the terrorists conspired combined.

    tye (ca7ef7)

  374. Comment by tye — 7/1/2012 @ 5:00 pm

    Obama will go down in history FIFY

    Brandon (d777af)

  375. Comment by Brandon — 7/1/2012 @ 1:48 am

    Hitchens makes the case (elsewhere – I can’t find it) that while they never found in particular nuclear weapons following the invasion in 2003, several Iraqis as well as Westerners were able to assess that Saddam still had nuclear aspirations,

    There isn’t any doubt about that, nor about the fact that the only thing that was stopping him from going ahead with it, was the sanctions (and his hope of getting rid of them) and the no-fly zone and the prospect that anything he built, if detected, and it would have to be detected, would get bombed when he had invested a lot of effort into it.

    What people don’t realize was that the “importing uranium from Niger” trope was almost certainly disinformation that came from Saddam Hussein;’s intelligencve service , for, if it were true, it would mean that Saddam’s nuclear bomb program was back to Square One. Set so far back that he had to begin over again from the very beginning and he didn’t have any spare unprocessed uranium on hand. And then of course the sale did not go through so he had to be a dozen years maybe or so away from a bomb even if the sanctions were lifted and so long as he didn’t actually import uranium he had nothing.

    This was an argument that we didn’t need to worry about Saddam Hussein!!

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  376. and that he was simply giving the international community the impression that he was complying only to get them off his back for a while so that he could continue at a later date.

    And Bush’s raising the issue in 2002 caused him to get back a little bit in complainace with the UN.

    Whatever he was doing worked. I dare say that if we had not removed Saddam 9 years ago,

    The sanctions might have been lifted by now.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  377. there might not be much left of the Middle East, and that’s a more frieghtening thought than the consequences we’ve suffered as a result of doing the right thing.

    You know what Michael Ledeen was saying (I believe): Wrong country.

    The first link suggests that while nuclear scientists did defect from Iraq at various times, many of them were lured back through promises of money for continuing with the program. So there was certainly nothing stopping Saddam from quickly gathering together those he needed to continue the program once the inspectors left him alone due to feigned compliance.

    Not once the inspectors left him alone.

    Once the sanctions, and the no-fly zone were gone. He needed more than no inspections.

    What worked with Iraq would also work with Iran.

    You just have to disable their air force and air defense and then bomb periodically, as needed.

    What doesn’t work is a 1-time bombing effort.

    Bomb periodically as needed would have to be done without UN authorization. Obama is more likely to try for a 1-shot. Around September or October. Although he will start off with a two week or longer campaign to destroy Iran’s air defenses.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  378. Vice President Cheney wanted to know if this story about Saddam Hussein importimng uranium was true. He wanted the CIA to give an opinion. rather than give an opinion, they sent Joe Wilson there (and he probably not sent because oif his wife – that was a lie designed to make it look uncalculated0 and he came back with a report that he could not rule it out.

    Nevertheless it is true that if it had been true that Saddam Hussein wanted – and failed – toi import raw uranium from Niger that his nuclear bomb proghram had to be set back to Square One. It wasn’t sold that way to Bush.

    To Bush it was sort of made like: This shows you hiow interested Saddam Hussein is in revivinmg huis nuclear bomb program.

    But Saddam Hussein had plenty of reprocessed uranium! And uranium was mined in Iraq! Whatt need would he havce of importing uranium from Niger?

    None at all, of course. This was originally disinformation from Saddam Hussein to show how little we had to worry about him on that score. Because if he needed to import fresh uranium what does that say about what had hapepned with he had done before 1991? It was all gone. Destroyed.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  379. Odd that ObamaCare passed with a “strong majority” that was about 30 votes short of this one, with ZERO bi-partisanship. They can’t call this a narrow vote so they call it “political.” As if Congress ever does something that isn’t.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  380. 30 votes short of what?

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  381. the contempt vote on Holder.

    narciso (ee31f1)

  382. “What worked with Iraq would also work with Iran.”

    Sammy – Are you suggesting an invasion of Iran? What actually worked with Iraq?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  383. Are you suggesting an invasion of Iran? What actually worked with Iraq?

    Air strikes and no invasion? I’m missing something there too.

    We did airstrikes with Libya, and although the outcome was relatively better than the disaster it could have been; air strikes without an initial invasion can be a very dangerous proposal. Either way it’s dangerous, but in any situation where you don’t have control on the ground it’s even more so. Who knows what we would stir up with an invasion though. I agreed with the invasion of Iraq, but the war went on far too long.

    But you have to consider the consequences of doing nothing. Ron Paul didn’t win the Republican nomination for many reasons, but one of the most obvious reasons was his Neville Chamberlain attitude towards Iran.

    Brandon (d777af)

  384. Obama will go down in history as having done more for to this country than . . .

    — Alt. fix

    Icy (6e2ac4)

  385. What worked with Iraq would also work with Iran.”

    Comment by daleyrocks — 7/2/2012 @ 1:49 pm

    Sammy – Are you suggesting an invasion of Iran? What actually worked with Iraq?

    No, I was talking about Iraq in the 1991-2002 period.

    (Why did Bush decide that wasn’t enough? One reason Bush wanted an invasion was that the sanctions were wearing away – and Saddam had kicked out the inspectors some years before. And if this trend continued, the sanctions would be totally lifted after a while. That is, the world didn’t have the staying power for it.

    It was also his fear that, whetehr or not Saddam had anythjing whatsoever to do with Seot 11th, he learned something from it – he didn’t need a delivery system to threaten the United States. So
    it was more important than it was thought before to prevent him from getting weapons of mass destruction.)

    But what I am talking about doing with Iran what worked for Iraq is this:

    1. Permanent air superiority (so there is no risk of anything being shot down – less important now now that we have drones) It is important though in order to protect the aircraft carriers, if they are going to be around.

    2. No fly zones – maybe not even necessary – it;s really just part of teh idea of maintaining air superiority.

    Most important:

    3) Periodic bombing. Apply as needed. Whenever a target appears.

    So you can’t destroy the hidden in amouintain reprocessing plant. You can, however block the raods leading to it. They can repair them. Yo know what? Bomb it AGAIN!

    Every four or six months if necessary.

    That’s what we did with Iraq.

    We repeatedly bombed things in Iraq when soemthing military we didn’t like appeared.

    Who says it has to be a one shot? It was not so with Iraq.

    This is the big flaw in Iran policy.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  386. What caused the Iraq sanctions to erode was that the United Nations is filled top to bottom with corrupt third world conmen who can be bribed with a 13 year old boy and a six pack of Mickey’s malt liquor.

    SPQR (f428d5)

  387. SPQR, thanks for the link. I was looking around for an update. Katherine Eban included quite a bit of information, new to me, in her CNN/Fortune article. I took notes.

    It seemed to me that she was continually adding commentary which was at odds with the facts reported in her own article, an unmistakable sign of disingenuous reporting.

    ropelight (e68177)

  388. ropelight, yes including several defamatory claims about Mike. But I found it interesting that she probes so much to get identities of sources, which leads me to all kinds of speculation about who she’s working for in reality.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  389. SPQR, the transcripts from Eban’s conversations with Mike Vanderboegh (linked at #391) strongly support your suspicions. Even a quick reading reveals that Eban’s primary interest was identifying Mike’s sources. Then when he wouldn’t give-in to her pointed probing she retaliated by smearing him with half-truths and outright lies.

    In the process, rather than identifying Mike’s sources, Katherine Eban has revealed herself as an accessory to the cover up. She’s not a journalist, she’s a political operative and she’s attempting to shield those responsible for murder under color of authority.

    ropelight (f86b5b)


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