Patterico's Pontifications

6/18/2012

Open Thread: Greek Elections

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 1:47 pm



Austerity won, except not really, is my impression.

Comments?

81 Responses to “Open Thread: Greek Elections”

  1. What’s Greek for ding? nk? You know?

    Patterico (65d5f2)

  2. all we want is life beyond thunderdome

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  3. It’s onomatopoeia so probably “ding!” unless you want the wacky letters.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  4. The ongoing exercise in self-delusion on a continental scale continues. Greece hasn’t met the cuts it promised to make for the original bailout two years ago. They have no plan to collect their uncollected tax revenue. Any actual cut implemented causes rioting in the streets.

    Oh, and there is also an over $4 billion bond redemption due in August, and no money to pay for it. They are having trouble getting fuel and food delivered already.

    Greece will and must default and leave the euro. There will be pain, but also the possibility of a recovery in a few years. The current path is one of no progress and potential civil war – although the Masters of the EU have always preferred those to admission they were incorrect.

    Estragon (f2850d)

  5. Austerity caused this.

    JD (9f41b2)

  6. There’s no longer a good answer for Greece. All they have now is a choice of disasters.

    Steven Den Beste (99cfa1)

  7. I read over the weekend that as of last Friday, capital had been fleeing Greek banks at the rate of 1.5Euro’s/day; and that stores cannot keep canned goods on the shelf.
    If Teh Won is lucky, the Greek Gov’t and Economy won’t collapse until after Nov-6; if he isn’t lucky…well, either way, he won’t have to deal with the aftermath (even if he, Turbo-tax Tim, and Helicopter Ben, were up to the task).
    As I reminded one of our trolls this weekend, austerity only works if you actually cut spending such as Harding and Coolidge did in 1921, completely short-circuiting the Depression of 1920.
    Or, you can act like Hoover/FDR in the 30’s, or Teh Won just recently, and spend more and drive further into the ditch….BTW, I see more people today are telling pollsters that they expect to see the economy fall into a Double-Dip before the election.
    Sure glad we voted for Hope & Change in ’08!

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  8. Oops… That’s 1.5B Euro’s per day.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  9. I have an open thread question, if there are any takers. It’s specifically for anyone who voted for Scott Walker in the Wisconsin recall elections.

    I’ve been having an ongoing argument with my dad about respect for political opposites as a necessary but insufficient component of loving your neighbor, which as Christians we both believe to be one of our most important callings. His position has largely been that he can respect the man without respecting his capacity for rational political decision-making. My position has been that there can be no respect for the neighbor (and therefore no real love for the neighbor) premised on a foundation of political contempt, and that assuming that those who disagree with you are simply irrational is counterproductive. To say the least.

    My dad knows I frequent this site, and he knows that it is a conservative site. I told him that by assuming in my interactions on this site that the people who disagreed with me were nonetheless intelligent, good-faith actors had helped me to refine my own beliefs in some cases, helped me to refine the beliefs of others in other cases, and helped build a constructive, affectionate sense of community and solidarity in most cases (particularly when the parties involved considered the history of productive mutual interaction in its totality).

    He remains somewhat skeptical. He doesn’t believe there is any rational reason for working class conservatives – particularly those who have benefited from union jobs in the past – to vote for Scott Walker, or to vote against his recall. I disagreed with him. He asked me to ask the people here – specifically, people who had supported Walker in the election – for their reasons in doing so. I told him that I would try.

    So, this is kind of a bleg: are there commenters here who supported Scott Walker in the Wisconsin elections? If so, is there anyone willing to give an account of the reasoning behind his or her decision?

    When considered as part of a long-term project, any answer would be appreciated as service to a good cause.

    Leviticus (e923df)

  10. Koudounisma. There is “droom” in an old demotic song but it referes to bracelets clinking against each other. Drouganisma is the sound of a cowbell

    Let’s go with Ντινγκ.

    nk (875f57)

  11. Leviticus, have you asked your dad why he thinks that Scott Walker was sooooo bad for “union jobs”? Walker didn’t go around firing thousands of union members. Government workers are not begging in the streets of Wisconsin. Walker didn’t send in tanks to sweep the Bonus marchers out of the parks.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  12. I didn’t support him in the immediate sense, because I don’t live in WI, but I absolutely support what he has done.

    JD (318f81)

  13. The Greek economy has never been able to support its population above subsistence level. Never. Before 1967, if you wanted to send your children to high school you emigrated — to Germany, to America, Australia, Canada …. There are more Greek citizens living outside Greece than in Greece.

    The junta and PASOK ameliorated the situation, temporarily. The junta with American aid and the socialists with European.

    nk (875f57)

  14. What’s the big deal? Can’t they just bus in some SEIU to Occupy the Acropolis and tax the rich?

    elissa (8a0c30)

  15. SarahW, Comment 3. “Onomatopoeia” is “making names”.

    nk (875f57)

  16. Comment by Leviticus — 6/18/2012 @ 2:36 pm

    I detest the politics of Aaron Copeland, but his music was always sweet – same for Leonard Bernstein.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  17. Imagine a Greek sitting in the back of cab driven by a huge Turk. The Greek doesn’t have enough money to pay for his ride, so he tells the cabbie to circle the block again and again.

    The Turk smells a rat and keeps looking for a quiet spot to pull over and collect his payment in blood.

    ropelight (822d42)

  18. Speaking of SEIU and Occupy….
    I have a soft spot for Brit TV, and one of my current faves is “Foyle’s War”, which is underwritten on the L.A. station KCET-TV (no longer ‘public television’) by ACORN.
    Interestingly, they make no explanation as to whom or what ACORN is, just a simple announcement of their acronym.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  19. Leviticus,

    It’s nice that you and your dad have the sort of relationship where getting to know and understand one another’s political positions is part of it. I really enjoyed it when my kids became young adults and we, too, could (and do) have those discussions. It’s even more interesting when we don’t agree.

    With that, I am not a resident of Wisconsin but wholeheartedly supported Walker.

    I reside in California and am a member of a public sector union. It is an awful thing to witness the power public sector unions hold over our state government (Jerry Brown’s biggest contributors).

    We are at unsustainable rates, and if you couple that with the reluctance of our state to make the necessary deep cuts in entitlement programs and the hostility businesses face (see our state exit rate), we find ourselves falling into an economic abyss – not unlike Greece.

    I admired Walker’s fearless stand in the face of public sector unions, and moreso his clear understanding of the downward spiral accumulated state debt begets.

    I would love to see a Walker-type take our state in a gubernatorial election. I would love to see us become a right-to-work state. Certainly, it couldn’t be any worse than what we face now.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  20. Ditto, Dana.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  21. Leviticus – I cannot think of one good reason why PEUs should not contribute more to their gold plated health insurance and retirement/pensions.

    JD (318f81)

  22. Why did the Greek boy cry when he was sent off to boarding school? He didn’t want to leave his brother’s behind.

    Jack (a63511)

  23. It’s all Greek to me.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  24. “They have no plan to collect their uncollected tax revenue.”

    Estragon – I had a long conversation with a friend who very recently got back from visiting her ailing mother. The cash economy versus what gets reported to the authorities are very, very different. When tax collectors are sent out to find people, the people disappear and of course neighbors have no idea who they are or where they have gone. It sounds like a three ring circus.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  25. Leviticus,

    As you know, I don’t live in Wisconsin but I also support Walker. What’s really interesting, however, is that many of the Texas public schoolteachers I know support his policies, too. Why? Because they want to be sure their retirement and other benefits will actually be there when they retire.

    Of course, most of the teachers I know are in their 40’s or older, so retirement is an important issue for them. Younger teachers may not care about this as much but they should be concerned. I suspect the financial stability and scope of their retirement plans will see more changes than those of their older peers.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  26. Samaras, head of New Democracy, ran on “renegotiate the bailout”. Today he says we will honor our debt.

    No one wants to play, especially when he got 2 percent more than the ‘walkers’.

    New elections in August? We’ll know by the end of the week.

    Meanwhile Spain is doomed, Italy borrowing at 6% to loan to Spain at 3%, its over, fat lady bellows.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  27. “I suspect the financial stability and scope of their retirement plans will see more changes than those of their older peers.”

    DRJ – We saw this in the private sector as employers gradually transitioned new employees and retirement plans from defined benefit to defined contribution schemes.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  28. Among the many theories of how Gov. Scott Walker beat back a recall challenge from Democrat Tom Barrett is the allegedly superior Republican “ground game.”

    “Ground game” refers to voter outreach, including door-to-door canvassing to educate or register voters, phone banking, hosting campaign events and other efforts to directly interact with voters.

    “Both sides knew from the very beginning that this race was going to be about turnout,” says Ben Sparks, communications director for the Republican Party of Wisconsin. “We knew we had to have a comprehensive ground game in order to emerge victorious.”

    Since 2010, the state party has been “fine tuning” its grassroots outreach. It has done this by developing a network of identified supporters and volunteers and expanding its online activity.

    “Having an aggressive, online, grassroots campaign allows us to target and reach voters at the moment of relevance,” says Sparks, referring to the moment a voter searches for a candidate or issue online.*

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  29. I think the takeaway is that the socialist union thugs and their recall antics spurred Team R to get their act together

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  30. If Austerity means I have to work to pay Greek Barbers to retire at age 50, then they are “all in” for austerity.

    dfbaskwill (c021f2)

  31. California faces a remote possibility of potentially taking on public sector unions, however, the framing of the argument and the presentation of the initiative is so manipulative and our voters, such proggy do-gooders, I doubt there is much real hope and change going to take place here.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  32. Comment by AD-RtR/OS! — 6/18/2012 @ 2:33 pm

    I read over the weekend that as of last Friday, capital had been fleeing Greek banks at the rate of 1.5Euro’s/day; and that stores cannot keep canned goods on the shelf.

    It’s not just that. People aren’t paying their bills,or getting paid. Doctors and nurses in some hospital just (a week or two ago) got their last paycheck for 2011. The Greek government isn’t paying its suppliers or sending back tax refunds (I think that’s the second category) so far they are paying their employees. There isn’t money in Greece – people in effect have made unplanned loans.

    Patterio has it right: Austerity won, but not really. The party that’s ahead is for renegotiating the agreement. It’s impossible to meet anyway. The loans may keep flowing in now for a while.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  33. “As you know, I don’t live in Wisconsin but I also support Walker. What’s really interesting, however, is that many of the Texas public schoolteachers I know support his policies, too. Why? Because they want to be sure their retirement and other benefits will actually be there when they retire.”

    – DRJ

    DRJ,

    Could you explain that a little further? I’m not sure I follow. Are you saying that the teachers are concerned with a sort of general fiscal collapse brought on by unsustainable PEU compensation packages (which result from unfettered collective bargaining) or is there a more specific union policy in play of which I am insufficiently informed?

    Leviticus (102f62)

  34. Leviticus, does your dad know that Barrett used the law that Walker pushed to help balance Milwaukee’s budget as mayor? That’s among the reasons that Barrett’s campaign did not actually campaign on repealing the legislation at issue.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  35. It’s onomatopoeia so probably “ding!” unless you want the wacky letters.

    Comment by Sarahw — 6/18/2012 @ 2:00 pm

    You’d think so, but “tick tock” in Icelandic is “gleen glow” or something. According to björk.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  36. Leviticus,

    The teachers I’ve talked to didn’t mention any specific policy or provision. Thus, I guess they view Walker’s reforms as important to enabling local governments and school districts fund pensions and benefits, while balancing their budgets without tax increases.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  37. @ Leviticus.

    Here’s the problem: liberals are typically unwilling to concede a single point, no matter how manifestly unarguable. Public sector unions donate only to Democratic campaigns. Do you concede that point? No, you quibble and split hairs. Point: the very same beneficiarys of those contributions are on the other side of the bargaining table when those public sector unions come asking for a raise. This is a conflict of interest and the Democrats involved ought to recuse themselves, but of course that would defeat the purpose of the campaign contributions in the first place.

    1.) Do you concede that public sector unions donate almost exclusively to Democratic campaigns?
    2.) Do you concede that the same Democrats who receive money from public sector unions are the same ones agreeing to increased wages and more benefits?
    3.) Do you concede that Democratic beneficiarys ought to recuse themselves from these union/govt negotiations?, but that they never do?

    If you concede these points then I’d ask you, why Wisconsin wouldn’t re-elect Walker. If you don’t concede them, then there’s absolutely no point debating you, because you are fundamentally dishonest, and only a fool argues with the devil.

    Jack (a63511)

  38. The budget California’s Democratic- controlled Legislature sent to Governor Jerry Brown last week granted concessions to public employee unions even as talks continue on cutting programs for the poor.

    Democrats removed language that would have authorized the governor to order unpaid days off, known as furloughs, if unions balked at a proposed one-year, 5 percent payroll reduction.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  39. This is an admission by a large percentage of the population that they understand that things are unsustainable. The problem is, a nearly equally large percentage of the population showed that they were not willing to accept a reduction in what they have been promised in the past in exchange for their vote.

    It will probably be reconciled in the streets.

    crosspatch (6adcc9)

  40. #38 we had to pass it to see what was in it.

    crosspatch (6adcc9)

  41. Remember Taxmageddon begins 01/01/13, brought to you by the Obama Administration.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  42. Leviticus–

    To follow up on Dana’s point, when the state of WI no longer forced payment of public union dues through automatic deduction from workers’ paychecks, over half of Wisconsin’s “unionized” government workers immediately took Walker up on that deal. That speaks volumes. And proved that many workers felt the public union leadership worked against their interests and against the state’s best interests rather than for them. That half apparently felt they were better stewards of their money than the union leadership. Many union members were also appalled that the beautiful state capitol building and grounds in Madison had been trashed and violated supposedly in their name (and using their dues money).

    Way back in the 1930’s FDR understood and articulated that “collective bargaining” with governments and taxpayers was a dirty business–and was a far cry from collective bargaining with private business where there had to be a balance kept between workers’ safety and benefits while still assuring the corporation’s ability to survive. George Meany was not a fan of collectively bargaining with government, either.

    Still, Walker removed only some, not all, collective bargaining from WI public unions. Walker has restricted public employees’ collective bargaining rights to their wages, making other workplace-related issues off limits. This means that schools are no longer bound by their union contract to purchase their employee health coverage from the Wisconsin Education Association Trust, (a teachers union affiliate). Schools can now obtain competitive bids, generating millions in savings. This has already allowed the state of Wisconsin to cut aid to schools and municipalities and balance its budget without triggering mass layoffs.

    Among other “draconian” moves, which don’t sound very draconian to most people, he is having state workers pay 5.8 percent of their salaries toward their pensions and pick up 12.6 percent of their health costs. Most private-sector workers today, by contrast, get no employer-funded pension and pay about 21 percent of their health care costs.

    You are welcome to share this post and these points with your dad. I don’t live in WI but right across the border, so the info on the recall was richly detailed and plentiful. With due respect I hope your father will do further independent research on this whole subject because the national media did a terrible job covering it. I’d also like him to know that you are a very valued and respected contributor and participant at this “conservative” blog site.

    elissa (8a0c30)

  43. “lets rid this country of the stench”- Golden Dawn campaign motto.

    mg (44de53)

  44. when the state of WI no longer forced payment of public union dues through automatic deduction from workers’ paychecks, over half of Wisconsin’s “unionized” government workers immediately took Walker up on that deal. That speaks volumes. And proved that many workers felt the public union leadership worked against their interests and against the state’s best interests rather than for them. That half apparently felt they were better stewards of their money than the union leadership. Many union members were also appalled that the beautiful state capitol building and grounds in Madison had been trashed and violated supposedly in their name (and using their dues money).

    Excellent points, elissa. It’s interesting to note on my paycheck, my union dues fall under a Voluntary Deduction category…

    I know so many colleagues who would, if possible, opt out of their union today. It has exposed itself as self-serving to a few at the top. Another thing that I’ve heard voiced in the past year that I don’t recall being so consistent in years’ past is the objection to union-support of Democratic candidates as well as Democratic initiatives in our state. Employees have typically fallen in place with lefty causes and not said a peep. Not so, any longer.

    The blunt reality of non-sustainability of current rates cannot be rationalized or denied.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  45. In Brooklyn, the public employee unions are supporting even Charles Barron.

    http://www.amsterdamnews.com/union_matters/dc-endorses-barron-others-for-congress/article_762b8598-aaa8-11e1-9d4d-0019bb2963f4.html?mode=image&photo=0

    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/06/12/unions-back-israel-bashing-new-york-democrat/

    http://www.adl.org/NR/exeres/15442B7C-B121-4BE9-8CAD-61C373A68BBA,DB7611A2-02CD-43AF-8147-649E26813571,frameless.htm

    You have Ed Koch, Jerrold Nadler and a whole bunch of people trying to stop Charles Barron, rthinking it is too late. This district sis newly drawn and includes much of the Brooklyn portion of the Weiner/Turner district plus a black district whose boundaries had to be expanded.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  46. The big fight in Wisconsin of course was mainly over teacher’s unions, and given how teacher’s unions have been part of the utter destruction of education in this country, Walker should have done far more to destroy their union. Really destroy it.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  47. I dunno. I thought my teachers were alright. What are you basing your analysis on?

    Leviticus (102f62)

  48. Leviticus – I had plenty of great teachers growing up, and I sincerely doubt their membership in the NEA had anything to do with their success.

    JD (318f81)

  49. Leviticus, at the start of WWII, the Army tested all of its inductees for literacy. The Army would not accept anyone who couldn’t read basic manuals, signs, instructions etc. 96% of the 18 million men tested passed basic literacy. In the Korean war, the Army applied the same tests to its draftees, literacy had already dropped to 81 percent.

    During the Vietnam era, 27% failed the literacy tests. From 4% illiteracy to 27% illiteracy in a generation. What do you think the rates would be today?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  50. SPQR,

    In furtherance of your point,

    Kenneth Jackson, 19, of Miami, enlisted in the Army after graduating from high school. He said passing the entrance exam is easy for those who paid attention in school, but blamed the education system for why more recruits aren’t able to pass the test.

    “The classes need to be tougher because people aren’t learning enough,” Jackson said.

    Nearly one-fourth of the students who try to join the military fail its entrance exam, painting a grim picture of an education system that produces graduates who can’t answer basic math, science and reading questions.

    The report by The Education Trust found that 23 percent of recent high school graduates don’t get the minimum score needed on the enlistment test to join any branch of the military.

    It’s difficult not to connect this with quality of education, but unfortunately it appears lowering the bar of entry is their chosen – and perhaps only possible – solution.

    They show that the percentage of new Army recruits with high-school diplomas has plunged from 94 percent in 2003 to 83.5 percent in 2005 to 70.7 percent in 2007. (The Pentagon’s longstanding goal is 90 percent.)

    The percentage of what the Army calls “high-quality” recruits—those who have high-school diplomas and who score in the upper 50th percentile on the Armed Forces’ aptitude tests—has declined from 56.2 percent in 2005 to 44.6 percent in 2007.

    In order to meet recruitment targets, the Army has even had to scour the bottom of the barrel. There used to be a regulation that no more than 2 percent of all recruits could be “Category IV”—defined as applicants who score in the 10th to 30th percentile on the aptitude tests. In 2004, just 0.6 percent of new soldiers scored so low. In 2005, as the Army had a hard time recruiting, the cap was raised to 4 percent. And in 2007, according to the new data, the Army exceeded even that limit—4.1 percent of new recruits last year were Cat IVs.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  51. That there’s scary stuff, Dana.

    elissa (8a0c30)

  52. Comment by SPQR — 6/18/2012 @ 3:35 pm
    Comment by Jack — 6/18/2012 @ 3:51 pm
    Comment by Dana — 6/18/2012 @ 4:45 pm
    Comment by Leviticus — 6/18/2012 @ 6:36 pm

    Having spent formative years in Wisconsin, 8 in “Madtown”, “MadCity”, People’s Republic of Madison”, etc., I followed this closely.

    As said above, the reforms did not strip all collective bargaining rights, but focused on things such as:
    1) mandatory membership with dues taken directly from paycheck
    2) 95%+ of political expenditures from those dues going to the Dem Party
    3) fixed contracting for health care insurance with a company affiliated with the teachers union which was charging higher than market rates
    4) work rules which based teacher hiring and firing on seniority which resulted in a “teacher of the year” being fired (I think this just recently happened in CA too).

    As said above, when given the choice over 50% in some unions quit the union. Apparently they did not feel the union reflected their interests.

    Also as said above, FDR and others were against gov unions because you are basically putting the people of the state against the people of the state. It isn’t like gov. employees work for a profit-making company and want a “fair share” of the income, but they are people of the state asking the rest of the people of the state to support them. Even by gov. employee standards the workers in Wisconsin had better pay and better benefits than many other states, and far better than the average Wisconsin resident paying taxes to support them.

    It has been said that the laws stood up in Wisconsin because people had time to see the impact for the good on the people of the state, unlike Ohio where similar reforms were never implemented and later rescinded (something to that effect).

    Also said as above, though the original recall effort had to do with the various reforms to tackle budget issues, the Dem. opponent refused to say what he would do differently or if he would reverse anything Walker had done. I think enough “common sense folk” were fed up with the idea of people coming from out of state, essentially vandalizing the state capital, watching the unionized police of Madison do nothing, and trying to dictate to the rest of the state what to do. Remember, the anti-Walker claim was that he was doing things he had not campaigned on and was “over-riding the will of the people”. In some ways his victory in the recall was the state saying, “He was doing what we elected him to do, so quit your belly-aching and causing trouble, shut up and go home.”

    Teachers and teacher’s unions, especially the leadership of teacher’s unions, are not the same thing. My grandfather was a coal-miner in KY long ago in the midst of severe and violent pro and anti union activity. The family view was that to the degree the mine owners were interested in their mines, the union bosses were interested in their union power just as much, and the welfare of the individual miner was not much better in the hands of the union than in the hands of the mine-owners.

    If a person in a union wants to see the long-term success of their employer, knowing if the employer goes so does their job, then that person should not support short-sighted union demands that will cause trouble in the long run. If teachers are interested in education and the teaching profession, perhaps they would favor work rules that are different from those that are little more than protectionism for workers with seniority, whether they are competent or not.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  53. Thank you all for your answers thus far. I’d be glad to hear any more that people are willing to give, but this is just to say that I’m reading your comments and that I appreciate your help.

    Leviticus (102f62)

  54. I would add this, the UC system is another example of poor planning and underfunded unions; it’s pretty horrible,

    The cost of pensions and retiree health benefits are soaring at the University of California, increasing pressure to raise tuition and cut academic programs at one of the nation’s leading public college systems.

    The UC Retirement Plan’s huge deficit was created by investment losses during the global economic crisis — and the nearly two decades when campuses, employees and the state did not contribute any money toward pensions.

    The UC system faces spiraling pension costs for 56,000 current retirees and another 116,000 employees nearing retirement.

    To offset state cuts over the past three years, UC has repeatedly raised tuition, cut academic programs and student services, reduced its workforce, and increased enrollment of out-of-state students who pay three times more than California residents.

    Without a substantial boost in state funding, UC will need to find other ways to raise revenue or cut costs to pay for promised retirement benefits, officials said.

    UC officials want the state to make pension contributions, as it does for the California State University and California Community Colleges systems. But the state, facing its own financial problems, hasn’t provided money for UC pensions for more than 20 years.

    Employees can begin collecting pensions at age 50 and receive maximum benefits at age 60. Pensions are based on the average of their three top-earning years, and employees who work 40 years receive annual pensions equal to 100 percent of that amount.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  55. _________________________________________________

    He asked me to ask the people here – specifically, people who had supported Walker in the election – for their reasons in doing so.

    Leviticus, I can understand your dad being such a liberal towards (ie, giving a million benefits of the doubt to) the government, its employees and their unions if he himself is, or were, a government worker. I could also stomach such a point of view (or wouldn’t be as irked by it) if the average employee in the public sector over the past 20 years hadn’t been doing better — in terms of salary, vacation time, healthcare benefits and pensions — than the average working stiff in the private sector.

    People who feed at the trough of the public sector depend upon and give big hugs to liberals like your old man. Then they probably turn their back, walk away, smirk, and say: SUCKER!!!

    Mark (2992b3)

  56. Roger Clemens acquitted of all charges.

    Eric Holder requests a mulligan.

    Icy (85cd5d)

  57. ______________________________________________

    What’s really interesting, however, is that many of the Texas public schoolteachers I know support his policies, too.

    In a similar vein, I’m fascinated by reports that a fairly high percentage of government employees in Wisconsin, when finally given the opportunity to determine whether money from their paychecks could or could not be funneled to their union, chose to keep the dollars for themselves.

    Mark (2992b3)

  58. Mark – you believe different things than my father. Good for you. Who do you get your hugs from? I bet you wouldn’t like the answer, if you could step back from the ledge of blind partisanship long enough to come up with an honest one.

    Leviticus (102f62)

  59. By the way: my dad left a cushy government job at LANL to start his own business, which he continues to operate to this day.

    Leviticus (102f62)

  60. I thought it was a strange choice of words that the Greek party that was “in favor of the bailout” won. Like, “we’re in favor of getting more free money from the Germans.”

    Yeah, courageous stand.

    Patricia (e1d89d)

  61. _____________________________________________

    The ongoing exercise in self-delusion on a continental scale continues.

    Most notably the French, who recently elected a super liberal, out-and-out Socialist to their presidency, and who yesterday added a rotten cherry on top of their rotten whipped cream by turning their Parliament over to even more leftists.

    Hardly surprising that the new president has determined that his predecessor raising the age of retirement from the humane and beautiful point of 60 years old to the horribly old and creaky age of 62 was a barbaric act, and therefore has to be reversed.

    The people of France, in their wisdom and ingenuity, figure it it’s good enough for Greece, it’s good enough for them.

    Mark (2992b3)

  62. ______________________________________________

    Who do you get your hugs from?

    So you think it would instead be a generous, wonderful and humane act on my part if I happily gave my dollars (in taxes) to the government, which, in turn, will beautifully support X number of bureaucrats, who will happily push lots of pencils, who then will receive more vacation days than the typical non-government worker does, and who eventually will beautifully retire with big pensions?

    BTW, the Occupy Wall Street crowd has a bug up its butt about corporations getting X amount of money from society. But at least in almost all cases, such companies don’t force me to pay — don’t mandate that I fork over bucks — for their goods, services, workers and executives. When it comes to the public sector, I have no choice in the matter.

    Mark (2992b3)

  63. That’s what we call a “dodge.”

    Leviticus (102f62)

  64. i nvr knw a rumr

    cld sprd so fst

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  65. _________________________________________

    That’s what we call a “dodge.”

    So I misunderstood your implying that if I were a do-gooder, pro-government liberal, I’d receive hugs the way your dad does, from the public sector and all its supplicants, and wouldn’t that be a wonderful and friendly thing? Personally, I’d rather go without the hugs, if only because I might be pickpocketed by the people doling out those hugs.

    Mark (2992b3)

  66. Over a zerohedge there’s a piece on State’s pension and benefits shortfalls.

    WI has the only fully funded pension system.

    AZ has the only ‘fully’ funded benefits system(skyrocketting costs reason for scare quotes).

    Pensions alone in arrears $1.4 Trillion. Thirty Four, 34, states underwater.

    You know that check that’s ‘in the mail’? It’s coming via Timbuktu by dromedary and there’s been a fire.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  67. I have read that 800+ million of the 900+ million that WI received from the “stimulus” bill went into the state employees pension/benefit system. I’d welcome being shown that is in error, if it is, but that is my understanding.

    Adding to the idea that the only “shovel” that was ready was one for BS.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  68. MD in Philly–

    I recently saw a bumper sticker that proclaimed:

    “My dog has created more shovel-ready jobs than Obama”

    elissa (624b67)

  69. Thanks elissa, that’s great.

    Good morning.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  70. drudge has this article today from the dirty socialist Associated Press Mr. Gary

    Essentially, for every $1 they’ll eventually have to pay out in health care, states had set aside only 5 cents.

    lol.

    That reminders me nobody has really commented on the bail out California is begging for. They the federal government to give them seven billion dollars!

    For real real not for play play…

    $6.9 billion: Ask the federal government to cover more state expenses, including those related to incarcerating illegal immigrants, special education and healthcare for the poor.

    good luck with that, losers

    aren’t you the jackoffs what recently spent 3 billion dollars on stem cells?

    I think you are

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  71. They want the federal government I mean

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  72. Comment by SPQR — 6/18/2012 @ 6:45 pm

    Leviticus, at the start of WWII, the Army tested all of its inductees for literacy. The Army would not accept anyone who couldn’t read basic manuals, signs, instructions etc. 96% of the 18 million men tested passed basic literacy. In the Korean war, the Army applied the same tests to its draftees, literacy had already dropped to 81 percent.

    The reason for that is well known – that’s because the new improved whole word method of teaching reading started to replace phonics in 1930/1931. Just about all World War II recruits had been taught reading the old fashioned way.

    Draftees for the Korean War were almost all born in the year 1930 or 1931.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  73. “That reminders me nobody has really commented on the bail out California is begging for.”

    Mr. Feets – But soon you will have Teh High Speed Rail!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  74. Sammy–there have been advocates of phonics and advocates of the whole word, whole language methods of teaching reading for generations. There have been studies comparing them as teaching methods including a big one in the 1990’s as I recall. Most studies have concluded that they are both useful and effective–in different ways. I learned phonics. My mother, an elementary teacher, taught phonics well into the mid 1990s and I believe it is still taught today in many schools.

    I sadly agree that reading skills are greatly diminishing across the broad spectrum of students when compared to times past. I suspect there are many reasons and combinations of reasons for that to have occurred. But I am sure that phonics was not “replaced” in the 1930’s as you stated @9:20. It is still alive and kicking.

    elissa (624b67)

  75. high speed rail! It’s definitely not too early to remind my fellow Californians that when we get the high speed rail it will be very important that we all keep our hands and arms inside the vehicle at all times!

    Let’s all enjoy our high speed rail the SAFE way!

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  76. oh here we go. The ever-slutty Tommy Christopher hails slutty Andrea’s slutty slutty propaganda whorings.

    “Score a victory for the mainstream press over right-wing pressure!” says Tommy X.

    Whores of a feather flock together. And then they poop all over each other.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  77. SPQR – do you have a link to a source for those literacy numbers, by the way? I believe you, but one of the other arguments I’ve been having with my dad is about sources of data and it would be useful to me to be able to show him that people on both sides of the political divide ground their positions in data on a regular basis.

    Leviticus (e923df)

  78. “So I misunderstood your implying that if I were a do-gooder, pro-government liberal, I’d receive hugs the way your dad does, from the public sector and all its supplicants, and wouldn’t that be a wonderful and friendly thing?”

    – Mark

    Yes. I was actually implying that if my dad’s votes would earn him sucker-hugs from public sector union types, your votes would earn you sucker-hugs from private sector corporate welfare types. If you think one of those is better than the other, more power to you. You’re still being played for a sucker, by your own standard.

    Leviticus (e923df)

  79. Julian Assange has taken refugee in the Ecuadorian embasassy inb London and asked for political asylum.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  80. Comment by elissa — 6/19/2012 @ 10:15 am

    Sammy–there have been advocates of phonics and advocates of the whole word, whole language methods of teaching reading for generations.

    1330 or so would mean almost three generations. Whole word was originally called Look-Say. The theory being that adults don’t piece together a word but by bit but recognize it all at a glance, so children also should.

    And phonics wasn’t called anything. It didn;t need a name.

    There have been studies comparing them as teaching methods including a big one in the 1990′s as I recall. Most studies have concluded that they are both useful and effective–in different ways. /i>

    This could be misleading if all that anybody needs is a little bit of phonics. It only took me four months to learn to read. Of course they were teaching me to read Hebrew too at the same time and that was entirely phonetic. Anyway after 4 months I was reading the “To the Teacher” paragraph.

    With the years spent or wasted teaching reading, good results could be attributed to everything even if 95% of it was phonics (plus some special words and numbers) just so long as stgudnets got a little exposure.

    I learned phonics. My mother, an elementary teacher, taught phonics well into the mid 1990s and I believe it is still taught today in many schools.

    It was revived after Rudolf Flesch (1911-1986) Why Johnny Can’t Read in 1955. Actually before that it didn’t take over all places, or private schools, and older tecahers may have subverted the new method.

    I think it is actually that book “Why Johnny Can’t Read” that noted the comparison betwen soldiers in World War II and those in the Korean War. Unfortunately I don’t think the original 1955 edition has been scanned by Google.

    Since Look-Say didn’t take over 100%, and was subverted by teachers and parents that makes the results for non-phonics even worse. And there really is no other good reason why reading ability should have declined between those men old enough for World War II and thiose born in 1930 or 1931.

    They used to use grades of school as a proxy for reading ability but it later became no good any more. Only people who never made it through the 5th grade (because they didn’t attend) couldn’t read. I think that may be in Flesch’s book too.

    I found this: Closing the Literacy Gap in American Business: A Guide for Trainers and Human resource Specialists by Edward E. Gordon, Judith A. Ponticell, Ronald R. Morgan – 1991 – 201 pages

    By the 1940 US Census, completion of the fourth grade was considered evidence of
    literacy. Only 2.9 percent of all Americans failed to meet the 1940 standard. However, by the end of World War II in 1945, the military had rejected nearly 750,000 draftees because of educational deficiencies.

    I think this book tries to attribute this to people not attending school. Did a smaller percentage of those born in 1930 attend school than those born earlier in the Twentieth century?? That can’t be.

    I sadly agree that reading skills are greatly diminishing across the broad spectrum of students when compared to times past. I suspect there are many reasons and combinations of reasons for that to have occurred. But I am sure that phonics was not “replaced” in the 1930′s as you stated @9:20. It is still alive and kicking.

    What happened was it began to replace it and was the thinking behind the Dick and Jane readers. Of course they contained a list of words in the back and could be used for phonics too a bit. I didnb’t mean that phonics was gone. Just that it wasn’t taught in teacher’s colleges and that it began to penetrate schools.

    http://improve-education.org/id29.html

    At this date, 20 years after Dr. Flesch passed away, his message largely prevails. The forces of whole word–especially since 1995–are slowly receding, like some dark tide. But we are still left, ever more intriguingly, with the question: why did this bogus technique come into vogue in the first place? To find the answer, we have to peer back at the history of education, all the way to the early part of the 20th century and into the late 19th century.

    ADDENDUM I: Dr. Seuss Condemned Look-Say
    ———————————-
    In 1981 Theodor Geisel (Dr. Seuss) said: “[People] think I did it in twenty minutes. That damned Cat in the Hat took nine months until I was satisfied. I did it for a textbook house and they sent me a word list. That was due to the Dewey revolt in the Twenties, in which they threw out phonic reading and went to word recognition, as if you’re reading a Chinese pictograph instead of blending sounds of different letters. I think killing phonics was one of the greatest causes of illiteracy in the country. Anyway, they had it all worked out that a healthy child at the age of four can learn so many words in a week and that’s all. So there were two hundred and twenty-three words to use in this book. I read the list three times and I almost went out of my head. I said, I’ll read it once more and if I can find two words that rhyme that’ll be the title of my book. (That’s genius at work.) I found “cat” and “hat” and I said. “The title will be The Cat in the Hat.”

    Maybe not the best web site.

    I think there is basically a simple answer as to how this absurdity got started. It is easier to come up with something new and fresh if it also untrue.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  81. You can also be an expert easier if what you say is false. Only somebody specially trained will say that.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)


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