Patterico's Pontifications

4/27/2012

Report: Egyptian Husbands to Be Allowed to Have Sex with Their Wives After Death

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:32 am

The Daily Mail:

Egyptian husbands will soon be legally allowed to have sex with their dead wives for up to six hours after their death, local media is claiming.

The controversial new law is claimed to be part of a raft of measures being introduced by the Islamist-dominated parliament.

It will also see the minimum age of marriage lowered to 14 and the ridding of women’s rights of getting education and employment.

People often forget that the fight against radical Islam is also a fight for women’s rights.

This is a good reminder.

289 Responses to “Report: Egyptian Husbands to Be Allowed to Have Sex with Their Wives After Death”

  1. First!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  2. I’m saving this link for the next guy who scolds me for calling Arabs atavistic, barbarous, camel-molesters who never came out of the Dark Ages.

    nk (875f57)

  3. Oh, poopoo, it’s the Daily Mail. It’s 26 days after April Fool’s, Patterico.

    nk (875f57)

  4. Property is property. Who are we to judge what is right or wrong?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  5. So let me see if I have all this right.

    1. A woman can be killed for dishonoring her family is she is raped.

    2. A man can be absolved of the crime of rape if he marries the woman he raped.

    3. A man can divorce the woman he married because he raped her by saying “I divorce you” three times in public.

    4. If she kills herself because of the dishonor of being married to the man who raped her, he can continue to have “sex” with her for up to six hours after she is dead.

    I can’t help but wonder just why we are supposed to be “tolerant” of the practices of this religion?

    Jay H Curtis (804124)

  6. Zombie at PJM, linked by Geller at Atlas Shrugged, has a review of Spencer’s new “Did Mohammed Exist?” Surprising total absence of contemporary mention, destruction of archaeologic evidence by SA, and etymologic doubt as to Arabic origin of the Quran.

    The Imam has no clothes.

    gary gulrud (1de2db)

  7. It’s the Daily Mail, so forget the story. But, in the abstract, if a country has a high death rate, lowering the marriageable age is a population survival mechanism, so that there are at least two generations to take care of the baby. Iran did it after Saddam Hussein wiped out an entire generation of young men, with our blessing. I believe they lowered the age to eleven for boys and nine for girls. And hanged homosexuals and prostitutes.

    I don’t approve, nor prescribe. Just describe.

    nk (875f57)

  8. Egyptian women don’t even have rights to self-determination once they’re dead.

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  9. Nietzsche and Kazantzakis both said Christ was St. Paul, Gary. There is debate about who wrote Shakespeare’s plays. It doesn’t matter, who the person is. The Word is who.

    nk (875f57)

  10. I’m waiting for the DNC talking head who claims this is all part of the Republican “War on Women” !

    (Chuck Schumer, Ed Schultz, David Brock, that’s your cue !)

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  11. Yeah, Mohammed preached to illiterate nomads, but then so did Abraham, Moses and Christ. So what?

    nk (875f57)

  12. Ah Fatima, the headache excuse will not work for you this time!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  13. The good news from Egypt is the National Bank has a month worth of welfare on hand, tourism is dead, MB wants the military IMF handouts, unemployment worse than Spain, Suez shutdown, gas pipeline to Israel off, rockets launched from Sinai, dog not on menu,…

    But nanny goats are dancing in the streets today.

    gary gulrud (1de2db)

  14. I blame Bush for this law !

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  15. NK, I wrote Shakespeare’s plays in one of my previous lives.

    Baron von Munchausen PHD (99d480)

  16. I see the good news for Egyptian men being they will no longer have to suffer the indignity of being asked “is it in yet” if they are having sex with a dead wife.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  17. Nasser tried to crate a United Arab Republic with Syria? It failed because Syria and Egypt were worlds apart. Syria was relatively westernized and relatively wealthy while Egypt was still a poor relation remnant of the Ottoman Empire, backward and dirt-poor. Do you think it was chance that most of the 9/11 hijackers were Egyptians?

    nk (875f57)

  18. 9. “9.Nietzsche and Kazantzakis both said Christ was St. Paul”

    Although I took ancient Greek and German in college I have only tried Nietzsche and Kazantsakis in translation. Got further into Nietzsche and D.H. Lawrence.

    I find Hume and Wittgenstein far more profitable than romantics and nihilists.

    gary gulrud (1de2db)

  19. Wish I had them in my Museum in Alexandria, MD.

    The 13th Ptolemy (875f57)

  20. Walter Kaufman’s translations of Nietzsche are wonderful, Gary. They read like novels.

    I don’t recommend Kazantzakis to anybody. I have read him in both Greek and English. His Greek is the one I grew up with, but there was a darkness and a dirtiness in his soul that comes through. We saw it in the Scorsese movie.

    The 13th Ptolemy (875f57)

  21. I am nk, not Cleopatra, the 13th Ptolemy.

    nk (875f57)

  22. 9. Cont. “There is debate about who wrote Shakespeare’s plays.”

    Got a B+ in Shakespeare, read 17 of the plays and got into the possible thematic sources, contemporary literature like Jonson, Chatterton, Titus Andonicus popularity, Marlowe(Dr. Faustus) as Shakespeare, etc.

    Academics are obliged to publish. Lazy incompetents ‘debate’ Shakespeare’s identity.

    gary gulrud (1de2db)

  23. “Walter Kaufman’s translations of Nietzsche are wonderful, Gary. They read like novels.”

    The 13th Ptolemy – I find Kant to be irresistible page turners as well.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  24. 23. “I find Kant to be irresistible page turners as well.”

    NOOOOOoooooooo!

    gary gulrud (1de2db)

  25. Whatever butters your turnips.

    nk (875f57)

  26. 23. I believe I did read Kaufmann’s “Also Sprach Zarathustra”.

    On my shelf are mostly Penguins by Hollingdale.

    gary gulrud (1de2db)

  27. Except only Atta was, nk, although AQ’s no 2, Zawahiri, and the one’s who suggested the ‘planes
    plot’ Mohammed Atef and Seif al Adel, were as well.

    narciso (8d0f34)

  28. http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/04/25/210198.html

    It makes no sense that an egyptian newspaper would lie about a law that egyptians passed, hello. Some americans just don’t want to believe that muslims are this hateful, so americans pretend the law must mean something other than what it actually says.

    jk (69d0bb)

  29. I got a kick, on the subway, where my fellow passenger was giving a double take on me reading “The Gay Science”, in 1977. 😉

    nk (875f57)

  30. Minneapolis is Somalia West. Was down this week in the wealthiest of suburbs watching the girls in hijabs running the 600K in prep for the tests in low 70’s.

    Abominable that alone.

    gary gulrud (1de2db)

  31. I stand corrected, narciso.

    nk (875f57)

  32. ____________________________________________

    People often forget that the fight against radical Islam is also a fight for women’s rights.

    Too many voters in the Western world are into lazy secular liberalism, too many voters in the Middle East — Egypt included — are into non-secular Sharia-ized conservatism.

    A large portion of those in the former group, oddly enough, don’t mind being enablers to the latter, while the latter may perceive the former as being “useful idiots.”

    The two sides deserve one another.

    Mark (411533)

  33. 28. Agreed, nk just taking us OT.

    gary gulrud (1de2db)

  34. ^that denial is what preceded the Holocaust, if you remember. German people who lived right next to the concentrations camps and who smelled the burning bodies for years, had to be literally frog-marched past the piles of dead bodies by Allied soldiers at the point of a bayonet, before they would accept reality. Denial is a strange thing.

    jk (69d0bb)

  35. I wish academians were as concerned with the dispute about who wrote Barack Obama’s books, as they are with Shakespeare’s plays.

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  36. yeah I think it is a global war on women. It makes sense that whatever is causing misogyny to increase over here, that misogyny would cause an increase in the middle east at well. Pretty sure men would form their own flash mob if told they had no choice but to surrender a kidney to anybody who needs it.

    jk (69d0bb)

  37. “Agreed, nk just taking us OT.”

    gary – Yes, need to focus on Egyptians getting a stiffy over stiffs.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  38. This new Egyptian law might promote tourism. You know, at least among very “religious” men from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Libya, et al.

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  39. I always go off topic. Patterico indulges it and it’s a great charm of this site — people just hanging around the village square shooting the bull.

    But Egypt is still in a state of war, and the first casualty in war is the truth. An Egyptian “newspaper” can just be a partisan propaganda pamhlet and the Daily Mail has no history of credibility.

    I saw this in the Kosovo War (Clinton wagging his Lewinski). There was a guy named Thaci whom Madeline Albright touted as a leader of the KLA. Three months later, he was in a New Jersey refugee camp with a refugee viza. Cohen and Albright just picked him out of a crowd, put him in a suit, and posed him for the cameras.

    Don’t believe tabloids, don’t believe the internet.

    nk (875f57)

  40. Where is Lovey to weigh in on this? We need the Arab hooker perspective. This could cut into her business.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  41. “But Egypt is still in a state of war, and the first casualty in war is the truth. An Egyptian “newspaper” can just be a partisan propaganda pamhlet and the Daily Mail has no history of credibility.”

    nk – It does not matter a bit if the story was planted by allies of Mubarak to discredit the opposition because the sad part is that it is completely believable. Let that sink in.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  42. This must be part of that “legitimate islamism” that the State Department was talking about earlier in the week.

    509th Bob (4ae072)

  43. Around that part of the world, daleyrocks, the prostitutes are boys.

    nk (875f57)

  44. No, I do not find having sex with a dead woman credible. Desecration of the dead is a great sin in Islam. That makes me think that this story is intended to incense Muslims.

    nk (875f57)

  45. This is beyond creepy.

    sickofrinos (44de53)

  46. And shall we go to that one of the allies of Mubarak is the Mossad? We can spin this a lot of ways.

    nk (875f57)

  47. “Around that part of the world, daleyrocks, the prostitutes are boys.”

    nk – Prostitution is illegal, but you are deluding yourself if you think it is confined to little boys.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  48. “And shall we go to that one of the allies of Mubarak is the Mossad? We can spin this a lot of ways.”

    nk – You are welcome to continue to go off topic.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  49. It’s Israel’s fault.

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  50. There was no topic, daley. The article said “maybe somebody suggested it, or didn’t, but it ain’t never gonna happen”. Please click Patterico’s and then tell me I’m wrong. Patterico just started an open thread by another name.

    nk (875f57)

  51. *Patterico’s link*

    nk (875f57)

  52. April 27 Fool, but this time it’s because we can’t be bothered to read his links. Revenge for busting his balls last time.

    nk (875f57)

  53. nk – I read the following on the internet, so I don’t know whether it is true:

    This is from a book called “Kanz Al Umal” (The Treasure of the Workers), in the chapter of “The issues of women”, authored by Ali Ibn Husam Aldin, commonly known as Al-Mutaki Al-Hindi. He based his book on the hadiths and sayings listed in “Al-Jami Al-Saghir,” written by Jalal ul-Din Al-Suyuti.

    Narrated by Ibn Abbas:

    “I (Muhammad) put on her my shirt that she may wear the clothes of heaven, and I SLEPT with her in her coffin (grave) that I may lessen the pressure of the grave. She was the best of Allah’s creatures to me after Abu Talib”… The prophet was referring to Fatima , the mother of Ali.

    The Arabic scholar Demetrius explains : “The Arabic word used here for “slept” is “Id’tajat,” and literally means “lay down” with her. It is often used to mean, “lay down to have sex.” Muhammad is understood as saying that because he slept with her she has become like a wife to him so she will be considered like a “mother of the believers.” This will supposedly prevent her from being tormented in the grave, since Muslims believed that as people wait for the Judgment Day they will be tormented in the grave. “Reduce the pressure” here means that the torment won’t be as much because she is now a “mother of the believers” after Muhammad slept with her and “consummated” the union.” ]

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  54. Rush is reporting this story began a year ago with a fatwah by Moroccan Imam Zamizami al whatever. Muslim marriages don’t end in death and with proper washing conjugal rights remain for 6 hours.

    Wimmen have the same right, somehow or other.

    gary gulrud (d102f2)

  55. NK is correct.

    Muslims are very concerned about how “the dead” are treated.

    But it’s just the way that the Muslims treat LIVING PEOPLE that is shocking to most people in the west.

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  56. “There was no topic, daley.”

    nk – Oh, I completely diagree. Both the title of the post and Patterico’s closing two sentences are blatantly obvious suggestions of a topic.

    “People often forget that the fight against radical Islam is also a fight for women’s rights.

    This is a good reminder.”

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  57. In Iran they have a much used practice of ‘temporary wives’, contracted for the night or weekend, honeymoon obligatory.

    gary gulrud (d102f2)

  58. That’s fine, and I believe I discussed it seriously in the abstract. And you did, too. But it’s not a real world thing that’s going to happen. The article says that.

    nk (875f57)

  59. 44. Dog is unclean just like pig in Islam, so the Lolo story is inciteful as well. Eating with utensils and wiping with the right hand is inciteful. Going to the dentist is an affront.

    Death cult.

    gary gulrud (d102f2)

  60. now that’s a good one
    no not tonight, Darwishi
    I have a deathache

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  61. The Islam I know, a marriage requires a kadi (judge/minister), a witness, a written contract, the lady being questioned about what should be written in the contract, she is called “hanouma” (my lady, throughout the ceremony). Tell me of a different variation that will not cause the Taliban to hang you from the end of a tank cannon.

    nk (875f57)

  62. “but she never moves
    she just stares at the ceiling”
    Egyptian bum lay

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  63. Teh Arab Bedsprings!

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  64. Father Zakaria Botros describes many of the strange sexual proclivities of the Prophet at Jihad Watch for doubters.

    “It was late in the night, yet Fr Botros was not done cataloging his findings regarding the prophet’s “sexual” habits (these shows are an hour and a half long). So, when he moved on to a hadith depicting Muhammad lying next to a dead woman in her grave, as well as pointing to hadith categories called “intercourse with a dead woman,” I happily turned off the satellite and called it a night—till this moment, as I am (somewhat reluctantly) revisiting my notes to prepare this report.”

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  65. 41: the fact you find believable says a lot about you and your ilk. About Islam, not so much.

    Alex (15f526)

  66. to love up teh goat
    is harem but sex with dead wife
    is halal trés kewl

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  67. Please, daley, Jihad Watch? I don’t know whom Spencer has more of a hard on for, King Abdullah or his two-year old white camel.

    nk (875f57)

  68. Alex, #65,

    I know daleyrocks. He is a fine person. We’re just talking, here. Let’s just talk.

    BTW, although I did do some hunting, I never got myself an ilk. (They told me to get a belted magnum but a .308 fan is always a .308 fan). 😉

    nk (875f57)

  69. “Tell me of a different variation that will not cause the Taliban to hang you from the end of a tank cannon.”

    Exactly.
    We’re talking about people who will hang you for not adhering to their nuanced “civil” ceremony—we’re not talking about hanging a murderer or a horse thief—rather, we’re talking about barbarians who will hang you for not going in lock-step with a “civil” ceremony.

    Thank God the truth has been revealed that the Taliban is actually so “civil.” All those “rumours” of beheadings were beginning to damage their brand name !

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  70. 68; clearly you are wrong.

    Alex (15f526)

  71. Hadji thought he’d found
    Anat’s “G” spot but it was
    only death rattle

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  72. nk – Ann Barnhardt discusses the same topic over at American Thinker.

    “Last September I began delivering an hour-long presentation titled “Islamic Sexuality: A Survey of Evil” to local Tea Party, 9/12 and other patriot groups in Colorado. The good folks at FreedomTalkNetcast.com, after seeing this presentation in Pueblo, CO sprang into action and professionally videotaped and edited my next delivery of this lecture in Colorado Springs. It was promptly uploaded to my YouTube channel, “AnnBarnhardt”, in four parts and those four parts can be viewed at the following links:

    Part 1 (General overview of Islam)
    Part 2 (Misogyny in Islam)
    Part 3 (Female Genital Mutilation and Pedophilia)
    Part 4 (Pedophilia, Prostitution, Bestiality, Necrophilia)

    Within Part 4 I discuss the specific ratification and encouragement within Islamic culture of necrophilia, which is sexual intercourse with a dead body. I cite a fatwa issued in May of 2011 by a famous and respected Imam in Morocco which states the following:

    “Since a good Muslim couple will meet again in Heaven, and since death does not alter the marital contract, it is not a hindrance to the husband’s desire to have sexual intercourse with the corpse of his (freshly) deceased wife.” -Imam Abdelbari Zemzami

    I noticed right away that during this part of my presentation, those present would react to this with laughter. This is a common psychological defense mechanism. When sane human beings are confronted with something as horrific and evil as necrophilia, the mind attempts to dilute the horror of such evil by painting it as comedic — a joke, something to be ridiculed and laughed at, because facing the thing itself is simply too painful. This is what was happening at my presentations. And so, I decided to correct this.”

    Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/04/necrophilia_is_not_a_joke.html#ixzz1tGI71Cy0

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  73. colonel one sick fook
    feels he must apologize
    for that last dandy

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  74. Alex, you got off on the wrong foot with us from the beginning. I’m only talking about myself, nobody else here, just give us another chance to have a conversation and not a cursing match.

    And I do really know daleyrocks, personally, and don’t f****ng f*** with him.

    nk (875f57)

  75. Klassy! And also smurt!

    Alex (15f526)

  76. I’ll be your huckleberry, alexandra.

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  77. “Please, daley, Jihad Watch?”

    nk – That is a very progressive response from you. Contempt before investigation.

    If you had clicked on the link you would have seen the piece was by Ray Ibrahim, not Robert Spencer.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  78. I f with those that suck. Sorry about that.

    Alex (15f526)

  79. There’s a surprising lack of women commenting on this particular thread. Possibly unprecedented even. (Can’t imagine why.)

    elissa (749314)

  80. “And I do really know daleyrocks, personally, and don’t f****ng f*** with him.”

    nk – As far as I am concerned, you and I are just having a discussion. Alex is a useless troll.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  81. 79: women are smart enough to know its bs?

    Alex (15f526)

  82. My brother is married to a Muslim girl, daley, and her little brother goes out to get us food, and we watch “Are You Smarter Than A Patterico Troll” together.

    I have posted more than once that I have Muslim ancestors?

    So I have a bias. But I don’t usually carry a yataghan so it’s ok for us to meet.

    nk (875f57)

  83. “41: the fact you find believable says a lot about you and your ilk. About Islam, not so much.”

    Alex – The fact that you don’t says a lot about your mental retardation. Read my links.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  84. Alright, Alex, we know you. Thank you for stopping by, we gave at the office.

    nk (875f57)

  85. “My brother is married to a Muslim girl, daley”

    nk – You have brought that up here before. I don’t believe that means you have to close your eyes to the practices or actions of radical Islamists assuming power in different countries.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  86. “There’s a surprising lack of women commenting on this particular thread. Possibly unprecedented even. (Can’t imagine why.)”

    elissa – That’s because you’re still alive. Wait until somebody tries to get busy with you after you’re dead.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  87. NK,

    What does having a sister in law who is Muslim, as well as claiming Muslim ancestors have to do with believing the accuracy of the report emanating from Egypt ?

    Who cares ?

    Truth is truth. There are plenty of actual Muslims who think the report is accurate.

    God, I feel like I’m at a youth soccer game, and I’m listening to a parent screaming, “Hey ref, you can’t call a foul against my little Johnny !”

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  88. I’m busy.

    corpse of SarahW (b0e533)

  89. 86: probably makes one more aware and Less bigoted?

    Alex (15f526)

  90. all I can think is a lot of muslim womens must not be very lively in the sack when they’re alive

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  91. Comment by nk — 4/27/2012 @ 8:16 am

    Do you think it was chance that most of the 9/11 hijackers were Egyptians?

    Only their leader, Mohammed Atta, pilot of the first plane, who confused the radio to air traffic control with the intercom to the cabin and broadcast his messages to the passengers to the world instead, as did all the other plots because he trained them a little bit…only Mohammad Atta was Egyptian. He was the most capable of them all. There were limits, of course, to his capability, because, in the nature of things, you have to be somewhat stupid to want to do a crime like this.

    Almost all the others were Saudis. The pilots knew when this was going to happen – the regular hijackers were only told right before their mission.

    Yemenites had difficulties getting visas so one pilot was turned down. I think one pilot as a Lebanese resident of the United States.

    Sammy Finkelman (f913b2)

  92. So, then, us, making an alliance with Pakistan the first Muslim nyukeelar power, and Afganistan the numero uno purveyor of opium, and Saudi Arabia the funder of Al Qaeda ???

    Ok, then.

    nk (875f57)

  93. F***, just stop the hypocrisy.

    nk (875f57)

  94. Comment by Jay H Curtis — 4/27/2012 @ 7:53 am

    So let me see if I have all this right.

    1. A woman can be killed for dishonoring her family is she is raped.

    Not exactly.

    But under strict Islamic law, I think, there’s Catch-22.

    Contrary to what it says in Numbers 35:28, under Shariah law the family of a murder victim can accept monetary compensation instead of seeing the murderer executed.

    The United States military actually takes or took advantage of this law in Iraq and Afghanistan, sometimes paying compensation for unintended deaths, although it is never described as compensation. But locally they could consider that to be a full admission of guilt and full acceptance of punishment.

    Now what happens if the person or persons entitled to the compensation is the same person who committed the murder??

    Catch-22.

    I’m sure it is a little bit more complicated than that, and murder is not actually legal or unpunished in any Moslem country, not even Jordan or Pakistan.

    In some cases the compensee is pressured to agree to the murder in advance.

    2. A man can be absolved of the crime of rape if he marries the woman he raped.

    3. A man can divorce the woman he married because he raped her by saying “I divorce you” three times in public.

    4. If she kills herself because of the dishonor of being married to the man who raped her, he can continue to have “sex” with her for up to six hours after she is dead.

    I can’t help but wonder just why we are supposed to be “tolerant” of the practices of this religion?

    Sammy Finkelman (f913b2)

  95. NK,

    It’s also interesting that you perceive this issue as an umbrella “Muslim” issue, rather than merely an issue pertaining to the Egyptian legislature.

    If a kooky law emanates, say, from Ireland, Italy, England, or Austrailia, I wouldn’t necessarily view it thru the prism of Christianity.
    Rather, I would view it as a kooky law emanating from that particular nation’s legislature.

    Certainly, the Egyptian legislators are predominantly Muslim, and at least the roots of the legislators in Ireland, Italy, England, and Austrailia are Christian (although they themselves are generally pretty secular, currently), but it’s interesting that you perceive mockery of the alleged Egyptian law as somehow an assault on the Muslim faith (and therefore by proxy, an assault on your relative and ancestors), rather than merely an assault on the Egyptian legislature.

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  96. About the marriage age being lowered to 14.

    First of all, I heard that repeated broken relationships and casual sex can impair the ability to engage in pair bonding, due to something called oxytocin. Would not early marriage avoid this issue?

    Also, in ancient Israel people did get married at fourteen and younger. Compare 2 Chron. 26:5 with 2 Chron. 34:1 Why would it be wrong for Egypt to reduce the age of marriage to fourteen, given the above facts?

    Michael Ejercito (64388b)

  97. Compare 2 Chron. 26:5 with 2 Chron. 34:1

    That should be 2 Chron. 36:5 with 2 Chron. 34:1

    Michael Ejercito (64388b)

  98. “My brother is married to a Muslim girl, daley”

    nk – Not comparable, but my brother is married to a progressive. I choose to bear that shame in silence. I feel no obligation to defend the lunacy of her views but I also do not introduce politics into our discussions. If she has the discourtesy to do it, she gets both barrels.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  99. Comment by Jay H Curtis — 4/27/2012 @ 7:53 am

    2. A man can be absolved of the crime of rape if he marries the woman he raped.

    3. A man can divorce the woman he married because he raped her by saying “I divorce you” three times in public.

    In the Bible (Deuteronomy 22:28-29) he is specifically NOT allowed to divorce her but I don’t know what it is under Islamic law.

    Also this case is not really exactly rape. The man is not required to marry her if the father refuses to take the bride price (Exodus 22:15-16) and it goes without saying that a woman cannot be forced to agree to a marriage (see even the custom of the people Genesis 25:58 where they ask Rebecca if she agrees to go with the man – by the way not even agree to the marriage because she can’t agree till she sees Isaac

    Under pre-Biblical common law, a rape could be resolved by a marriage but no shortcuts in agreement could be made (Genesis 34:3-4,8ff)

    This requirement that the woman agree to the marriage is even true for Moslems, but in places like Afghanistan now extraordinary pressure is put on the woman to consent to a marriage.

    Jailed Afghan Woman Freed but Urged to Marry Rapist by Alissa J. Rubin, New York Times front page, Friday, December 2, 2011.

    The actual title of the article, at least on the web, is “For Afghan Woman, Justice Runs Into Unforgiving Wall of Custom”

    KABUL, Afghanistan — When the Afghan government announced Thursday that it would pardon a woman who had been imprisoned for adultery after she reported that she had been raped, the decision seemed a clear victory for the many women here whose lives have been ground down by the Afghan justice system.

    But when the announcement also made it clear that there was an expectation that the woman, Gulnaz, would agree to marry the man who raped her, the moment instead revealed the ways in which even efforts guided by the best intentions to redress violence against women here run up against the limits of change in a society where cultural practices are so powerful that few can resist them, not even the president.

    Sammy Finkelman (f913b2)

  100. Overall, there is not too much distinction drawn in the Bible between rape and just plain sex, except that rape is a defense to adultery. (Deuteronomy 22:23-27)

    The case referenced in Deuteronomy deals where when a woman is betrothed but not married, where it is still considered adultery. People used to do that and wait even a year between the engagement and the marriage. Nowadays we perform the betrothal and the marriage the same day and have done that, I think for nearly two thousand years. The engagements that you may hear about are of no legal consequences.

    Rape is a defense to adultery also for Moslems under Shariah law, but here again, there is a catch-22:

    It requires only an admission by the woman, or, in some cases, a pregnancy, to establish adultery, but establishing rape requires four male witnesses, IIRC. If a married woman accuses a man of rape, she has established adultery to a court’s satisfaction, but not established rape, and stands in danger in some places, like Saudi Arabia, of being stoned to death. In most cases a whole international clamor is made for her defense and this is prevented, but who knows what could happen in some location in Nigeria or Somalia?

    Sammy Finkelman (f913b2)

  101. I still can’t believe mom died I can’t stop crying hey where did dad go why isn’t he here?

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  102. 4. If she kills herself because of the dishonor of being married to the man who raped her, he can continue to have “sex” with her for up to six hours after she is dead.

    I don’t know what that’s about.

    Apparently it was inspired by this:

    http://www.moroccoboard.com/news/5238

    A Moroccan cleric, Sheik Zamzami Abdelbari, issued saying that it was all right for a man to have sex with his wife after her death, because her death did not cancel the marriage bond, citing a verse from the Koran that says believers will go to Paradise with their wives. Therefore a man may wash his dead wife’s body, and also have sex with her. He did say that necrophilia, although Halal, is a disgusting act that would be best avoided.

    Apparently the Moslem Brotherhood in Egypt saw an opportunity to distinguish life under Islamic law from under secular law, and decided they would like to take some pains to make that legal.

    In the United Stats, of course, such an act of sex would be protected by the “right to privacy” unless maybe it was considered abuse of a corpse, which is I think probably a minor misdemeanor and would probably be disposed of by an adjournment in contemplation of dismissal if the husband seeks counseling and stays out of trouble for six months and – uh – does not drink alcohol or take drugs.

    Sammy Finkelman (f913b2)

  103. * issued a fatwa.

    I can’t help but wonder just why we are supposed to be “tolerant” of the practices of this religion?

    You don’t have to be tolerant of some things. the worst thing is this blood money for murder. But you do need to be fair and accurate.

    Sammy Finkelman (f913b2)

  104. First of all, I heard that repeated broken relationships and casual sex can impair the ability to engage in pair bonding, due to something called oxytocin. Would not early marriage avoid this issue?

    Only if the marriage lasted.

    It is not necessary to start so early, however it is absurd to tolerate teenage dating and sex, but not tolerate marriage, which is what we have now in the culture.

    Under Jewish law, true a man can marry at the age of 13 and a woman at 12, but nobody has done that for generations. Several hundred years ago sometimes it was done for secular legal reasons.

    Sammy Finkelman (f913b2)

  105. Ken at Popehat If I were his dead islamic bride, he could have his way with me.

    The letter in question is really the best thing I’ve ever seen.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  106. Comment by Michael Ejercito — 4/27/2012 @ 11:00 am

    Why would it be wrong for Egypt to reduce the age of marriage to fourteen, given the above facts?

    There’s a high possibility such a marriage would not be entirely voluntary, especially the marriage of a 14-year old girl to a much older male. Also a lot of people consider that she might be depriving herself of an education etc.

    Sammy Finkelman (f913b2)

  107. The real problem with the Moslem Brotherhood is that they hate Israel, or are on the take, but I repeat myself.

    Sammy Finkelman (f913b2)

  108. Some women have never been fitted by a professional.

    nancynailnail@gmail.com (55d0a1)

  109. Comment by nk — 4/27/2012 @ 9:13 am

    Don’t believe tabloids, don’t believe the internet.

    The story is true.

    But you have to understand the politics of that.

    I think this could cost them votes. But their aim may be to embarass one of the candidates running for president.

    Sammy Finkelman (f913b2)

  110. 92. “F***, just stop the hypocrisy.”

    While vaguely uncomfortable when successful in giving offense, I seem to recall a very recent indifference to the fate of Israel by the offended.

    And may I say no one need be more embarrassed with one’s heritage than a Norwegian, viz., Peace Prizes accorded Obama, Gore, Arafat and Carter.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  111. I accept “indifference”, my failure to communicate, but I was then talking about leaving nations to their own destiny. I’m calling “nonsense” on this story from every prospective. I have friends, whom I respect, here, and who disagree, that’s fine, if I wanted perfect agreement a mirror is much cheaper than a computer.

    nk (875f57)

  112. the fight against radical Islam is also a fight for women’s rights.

    Shouldn’t that read “… dead women’s rights”?

    steve (369bc6)

  113. *perspective* The trouble with sight reading is that it hurts your spelling.

    nk (875f57)

  114. Maybe Politifact can put it “in context”.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  115. The fight against all Islam, not just radical Islam, is a fight for women’s rights. Depends what country the women are in. In Albania, Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Turkey, and Iraq of all places, I’d say they are where Wyoming women were in 1890.

    nk (875f57)

  116. Seriously Ken’s letter (to an attorney threatening a client) had this sentence:

    “The rest of your letter relies on vague and bumptious legal threats buried among misspellings, bizarre malapropisms, misstatements of law, and gibberish”

    Intractable mental illness also gets a mention.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  117. The Daily Mail:

    Egyptian husbands will soon be legally allowed to have sex with their dead wives for up to six hours after their death, local media is claiming.

    As others have noted, there are a couple of problems in the above.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  118. OT but Palin just endorsed Mourdock over Lugar. Mitch has endorsed his former boss and former fellow Hoosier.

    Lugar has fallen behind in the polls, so one could accuse ‘Cuda of playing safe. Pence has not jumped in yet.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  119. Sammy – In your comments you cite Jewish law, make a reference to your belief about American law, but never reveal your beliefs.

    Two simple yes or no questions.

    Do you believe 14 is too young an age for marriage?

    Do you believe it is acceptable to have sex with a corpse?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  120. Quasi-on Topic: Tammy Bruce, hosting Laura’s show this AM, had some tapes of Michele B., pushing back on the nonsense that is ‘Republican war on women’ saying the real damage to women is that done by this Admin to lower economic class women.

    Bruce decried the paucity of other voices from the Red(or Pink, or Taupe, or..).

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  121. “As others have noted, there are a couple of problems in the above.”

    carlitos – There were stories in the local media, so that part is true. Whether they were designed to embarrass people is another question. The concept of necrophilia under Islam, however, is not undocumented.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  122. Just a wild thought, could it be a bad translation issue, where someone said “le petit mort” in French (the language of love and diplomacy) and then this gets written? I think that sex for around 6 hours after that happens is cool, especially the morning after a late night.

    I kid, I kid.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  123. Front Page Magazine:

    http://frontpagemag.com/2012/04/27/egypts-islamists-to-grant-sex-after-death-right-for-husbands/

    They haven’t passed any of this into law yet.

    http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/04/25/210198.html

    Egypt’s women urge MPs not to pass early marriage, sex-after-death laws: report

    Wednesday, 25 April 2012

    There are also the proposed divorce law and female circumcision changes.

    Sammy Finkelman (f913b2)

  124. I’ll need a doggie bag! [snaps due to lack of sockpuppet friday]

    Barack Chow (721840)

  125. OT weakly connected to proper gander:

    http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/04/gdp-miss-far-bigger-than-announced-real.html

    BEA-more government fraud.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  126. Good stuff, sarahw

    JD (abb177)

  127. Comment by daleyrocks — 4/27/2012 @ 12:46 pm

    Sammy – In your comments you cite Jewish law, make a reference to your belief about American law, but never reveal your beliefs.

    Two simple yes or no questions.

    Do you believe 14 is too young an age for marriage?

    In most cases. * It’s really young. Even 15 is not really tolerable, and in the case of a woman it would cause her to be too much in love with her husband. Ariel Durant (1898-1981) is a recent historical example of a woman who got married at age 15. That marriage lasted.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Durant (this article is just a stub. This is the article about Will Durant (1885-1981) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Durant

    Of course that marriage actually really shouldn’t have happened but mostly because Will Durant wasn’t such a good person

    * I won’t go further than that because I think human beings haven’t changed.

    I also believe that if you are too young to get married, you are also too young to have sex. If you *are* old enough to have sex, you are old enough to get married. You are just kidding yourself if you try to tolerate one without the other. You get all the emotional baggage of marriage with none of the commitment and security and avoidance of promiscuity.

    Do you believe it is acceptable to have sex with a corpse?

    No, because this is not proper respect for the dead.

    Sammy Finkelman (f913b2)

  128. This is th result of Ariel Durant marrying her husband at the age of 15:

    After Will went into the hospital, Ariel stopped eating. Will died after he heard that Ariel had died. They died within two weeks of each other in 1981 (she on October 25 and he on November 7). Though their daughter, Ethel, and grandchildren strove to keep the death of his Ariel from the ailing Will, he learned of it on the evening news, and he himself died at the age of 96.

    Sammy Finkelman (f913b2)

  129. You know, I like and respect daleyrocks very much, but I do not feel the same way about his sources (those about Islam permitting sex with the dead). I have the feeling that if I were to ask my sister in law about it I’d be searching for four parts of my body, my head one of them.

    nk (875f57)

  130. On marriageable age, maybe the government permits it, but the father is the real boss. Both for the girl and for the boy. So I don’t think it really will happen in practice.

    nk (875f57)

  131. this whole topic of discussion brings a new meaning to the term “dead lay”…

    but at least the HOA is not liable for the actions of Zimmerman.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  132. BTW, New Hamsphire, our New Hampshire, is 13 for a girl, 14 for a boy, with parental consent. When did New Hampshire leave the Union and join the Caliphate?

    nk (875f57)

  133. Interesting that this issue would be of such a pressing policy concern given all the other stuff going on in Egypt. Who knew!

    Bill (af584e)

  134. nk #11 “Yeah, Mohammed preached to illiterate nomads, but then so did Abraham, Moses and Christ. So what?

    Well, given that during a significant period between Abraham and Christ (and certainly by the time of Christ), every Jewish male was required to be able to read before he could become a man, unless you are stating the truism that Christ preached mainly to the literate while also including some illiterate in his audience, you show a remarkably poor understanding of the group with what is probably the longest continuous run of close to 100% literacy on this planet …(I don’t remember when it became a requirement that every Jewish male had to be able to read his Torah portion for himself as part of becoming a man – but I believe it was millennia ago) …

    Alasdair (e7cb73)

  135. guy issues chubwa®
    on his dear, late Fatima
    who are we to judge?

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  136. strange practices and
    doggie-style is not halal
    ceiling needs painting?

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  137. it’s quiet love but
    when lividity sets in
    colorful affair

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  138. farewell intercourse
    goodbye, Fatima… where’s my
    seventy two virgins?

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  139. is it as simple
    as it being akin to
    5 second food rule?

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  140. Interesting that this issue would be of such a pressing policy concern given all the other stuff going on in Egypt. Who knew!

    it’s no different from the Los Angeles City Council spending their time talking about banning single use grocery bags here in town to save the planet when we don’t have a balanced budget, enough cops or firemen, money to fix sidewalks or streets, or enough money in the pension funds to cover the obligations…

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  141. who can begrudge one
    last horizontal mambo
    before Big Dirt Nap?

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  142. if van is rocking
    don’t bother knocking it’s just
    posthumous humping

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  143. “I think that sex for around 6 hours after that happens is cool, especially the morning after a late night.”

    carlitos – What happens in the coffin stays in the coffin, right?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  144. someone told Achmed
    wear suicide vest and have
    some dynamite sex

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  145. “Interesting that this issue would be of such a pressing policy concern given all the other stuff going on in Egypt. Who knew!”

    Bill – Interesting that you’re here commenting on this thread with all that other stuff going on in Egypt. Who knew!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  146. before he tried it
    Khalid knew he wouldn’t take
    “no!” for an answer

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  147. Damn! Now she can’t even give him the old cold shoulder even in death!

    peedoffamerican (ee1de0)

  148. So much for the variant on the French defence – “Respected Qadi – I thought she was English!” …

    (with all due apologies to saxxenach friends)

    Alasdair (eabd8a)

  149. The Daily Mail got it from Al Ahram, which is as reliable as the Times, lol, the Arab translation might be in doubt.

    Paul of Tarsus, lived some thirty years apart from
    Jesus, spoke more Greek than Aramaic, and had an interely different style

    narciso (8d0f34)

  150. tears in eyes, Mahmoud
    asked was it as good for her
    as it was for him?

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  151. Gives a whole new meaning to Women’s Suffrerage, doesn’t it?

    peedoffamerican (ee1de0)

  152. tear-stained goodbye to
    mummy of his ten children
    one for old time’s sake

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  153. found use for blond wig
    cuz he heard blonds have more fun
    he’s one sick Farouk

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  154. This post is an example of the GOP War on Women. Patterico wishes to attack women’s postmortem sexual freedom like the Christianist fascist that he is.

    SPQR (212f8f)

  155. NK,

    Friend, it’s a good thing that Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, Hamilton, Jay, Adams, et al, were able to call a spade a spade by characterizing kooky British policies as kooky, rather than remain tethered to “their heritage” and “bloodlines” and “heritage”…which was…British ! (We can substitute “adherence to the Church of England,” in place of “kooky British policies,” for argument’s sake, if you prefer)

    Of course, in some aspects, the Founding Fathers were seeking restitution of British values they believed were being ignored.

    But the point is, you’ve never even claimed your sister in law is of Egyptian descent, or that your ancestors are of Egyptian descent.
    Rather, you merely say they are “Muslim,” but you don’t explain why being a Muslim American tethers one to defending policies allegedly proposed by the Egyptian legislature.

    Again, if a “traditionally” Christian nation, such as Ireland, England, Italy, Poland, Austrailia, et al, proposed an allegedly kooky law in their national legislature, I don’t think you’d see too many Christian Americans necessarily running to defend the alleged kooky law out of sentiment for their heritage.

    Plenty of Italian-Americans fought against Italy in WW2—likewise, German-Americans against Germany.
    And most of the Colonials (but not all, as their were some French and Indians who helped fight) in our Revolutionary Army under General Washington were British…fighting against the British.

    I just don’t understand why you perceive that Muslim-Americans instinctively defend a Muslim nation’s policy proposals.

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  156. carlitos – What happens in the coffin stays in the coffin, right?

    daley – not sure you caught the reference, but the French call the … climax “the little death.” If you did, I apologize for being obvious with my ‘splaining. A little morning-after nookie would typically be at the Four Seasons or casa de carlito, not in a coffin. YMMV!

    every Jewish male was required to be able to read before he could become a man,… close to 100% literacy …

    No idea why you believe this. No, Jews were not 100% literate millenia ago. Sounds like Jewish legend or fanfiction. Even if it were true, men knowing how to read is a 50% literacy rate.

    from wiki:

    Despite this schooling system, many children did not learn to read and write. It has been estimated that at least 90 percent of the Jewish population of Roman Palestine in the first centuries CE could merely write their own name or not write and read at all,[2] or that the literacy rate was about 3 percent.[3]

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  157. The 90% illiterate figure = Hezser, Catherine “Jewish Literacy in Roman Palestine”, 2001, Texts and Studies in Ancient Judaism; 81. Tuebingen: Mohr-Siebeck, at page 503.

    The 3% literacy figure = Bar-Ilan, M. “Illiteracy in the Land of Israel in the First Centuries C.E.” in S. Fishbane, S. Schoenfeld and A. Goldschlaeger (eds.), “Essays in the Social Scientific Study of Judaism and Jewish Society”, II, New York: Ktav, 1992, pp. 46-61.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  158. See where it says “despite this schooling system”?

    I would consider a Jewish kid who memorized some Torah to be as well-educated as a Muslim kid who memorized the Quran. That is, not.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  159. Thank you, carlitos.

    nk (875f57)

  160. “Interesting that this issue would be of such a pressing policy concern given all the other stuff going on in Egypt. Who knew!”

    Well, Bill, I knew and many others here knew. It is of great concern to anyone who believes all human beings have an intrinsic value. How a culture treats its women reveals the heart of the people. In a culture where female genitalia is brutally butchered like some sort of brazen shame making itself known, and amongst other various indignities and denigrations, this is indeed a big deal. Radical Islam continues to shame itself as it continues to strip away any remaining worth females had.

    The Radical Islamist male has long revealed himself as a contemptible being who is so completely f*cked up that he no longer appears human. He is an animal with no concept of what grace, love and mercy are.

    If the linked to article is true, then it should not be that big of a surprise.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  161. These folk insist that the story is a hoax,

    http://mideasti.blogspot.com/2012/04/anatomy-of-hoax-and-media-credulity.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    then again they are the same sort that Joe Wilson
    and Charles Freeman flack for,

    orrin hatch. (8d0f34)

  162. carlitos #155 – I wondered how long it would take for the 50% literate to be enumerated … for passage to manhood, the Jewish male had to be able to read his own Torah passage … Jewish females back then didn’t have the same religious requirement … it didn’t stop them being educated; it just wasn’t required …

    Feel free to continue to believe what you want to about this … ignore the fact that Muslim rulers and Spanish Inquisition and other such anti-Jewish organisations/groups made a point of shutting down Jewish schools – why would they have to do that for a 2-3% literate culture ?

    Alasdair (e7cb73)

  163. So far, I haven’t seen anything definitively confirming or refuting this story. The Christian Science Monitor ran a piece pooh-pooing the claim, but it was just more fact-free speculation:

    “There’s of course one problem: The chances of any such piece of legislation being considered by the Egyptian parliament for a vote is zero. And the chance of it ever passing is less than that. In fact, color me highly skeptical that anyone is even trying to advance a piece of legislation like this through Egypt’s parliament. I’m willing to be proven wrong. It’s possible that there’s one or two lawmakers completely out of step with the rest of parliament. Maybe.”

    For the record, I agree with NK that the Daily Mail (indeed, most British newspapers), are not to be trusted without independent verification. They are even less trustworthy than American newspapers.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (1a9f04)

  164. Granted, the Daily Mail has been particularly credulous about bogus rumors, like those the Rogue,
    although they can’t be dismissed.

    orrin hatch. (8d0f34)

  165. Reuters posted an item about the story, giving the Daily Mail as a source. It has removed the entry, which still can be read elsewhere.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (1a9f04)

  166. Women – for the most part – are treated as beasts of the field in Arab countries. They perform the majority of the work in their societies.

    What would be so surprising about the desecration of their corpses being made legal?

    Colonel Haiku (65290e)

  167. CH,
    The question should be: “Is this true?” not whether would it be surprising if it were true.

    Has any other Islamic government ever passed such a law?

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (1a9f04)

  168. Bro Bradley – Don’t be too focused on the Daily Mail, which itself referred to local sources, of which this might be one.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  169. Check out Patterico’s link again. The Daily Mail has changed the story. The Daily Mail story now leads with:

    “Alleged proposals to allow Egyptian husbands to legally have sex with their dead wives for up to six hours after their death have been branded a ‘complete nonsense’.
    The controversial new ‘farewell intercourse’ law was claimed, in Arab media, to be part of a raft of measures being introduced by the Islamist-dominated parliament.
    They reported it would also see the minimum age of marriage lowered to 14 and the ridding of women’s rights of getting education and employment.
    But sources inside the Egyptian Embassy in London have said the claims were ‘completely false’, ‘forbidden in Islam’ and ‘could never imagine it happening’.
    The source said the proposal, if it even existed, had not reached the parliament – although it was also admitted it could be the work of an extremist politician. . .

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (1a9f04)

  170. Daley,
    Thanks for the link. Given that Arab media has been about as reliable as British media, I’d like to see something more substantial.

    One reason for my skepticism is that, AFAIK, no Islamic government has ever enacted such a law.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (1a9f04)

  171. The link at 5;39 seems to have tracked the rumor.

    narciso (8d0f34)

  172. Naturally, the veracity of any news report is most important.

    But the reason an alleged “policy” such as this IS actually believable to many ears in the west, is because women are so atrociously treated(LEGALLY)in so many Muslim-majority nations.

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  173. Now this story, actually has a name attached to it;

    http://www.raymondibrahim.com/2012/04/egypt-muslim-brotherhood-mp-seeks-to-abolish

    narciso (8d0f34)

  174. narciso,
    Thanks for pointing out that link; it’s pretty much how I vet such murky claims. The part about “traditional journalistic due diligence,” is especially pertinent. Unfortunately, the tradition appears to be dying out.

    As I saw close-up in December with a story I covered, even supposedly quality news organizations as ABC News, Fox News, Discovery News and the auto site Jalopnik, just copied each other without skepticism. And so the unproven story went careening around the Internet.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (1a9f04)

  175. “The Daily Mail has changed the story.”

    Bro Bradley – As I said in earlier comments, the story may have been planted to embarrass radical Islamists. The fact that it brings attention to the mistreatment of women in Muslim countries is a good thing. The fact that there is precedent under Islam for necrophilia, not whether it has been formalized by government sanction, gives the story credibility.

    Given that the believability of denials from Arab governments have about the same degree of credibility as U.K. newspapers, it seems like there’s no firm conclusion one way or another at this point.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  176. Surprised no one linked to this song

    By Alice Cooper, from his Welcome to My Nightmare album.

    Chuck Bartowski (0072e5)

  177. NPR: Fast and Furious victims find new opportunities in Egyptian mail-order bride market.

    David, infamous sockpuppet (725724)

  178. 158. NYC graduates less than 50% from what passes for high school.

    Elaine Pagel, Princeton professor of antiquities, claims for example, that Aramaic was the language of the hoi polloi in Palestine. This despite the Qumran laundry and grocery lists, and those of Bar Kokhba from the Galilee, the century before and after Christ, were of equal portions, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.

    We live in a post-literate era, the golden age of scholarship passed in the 1950s. Virtually nothing written today is worth spit and neither are quotes in evidence beginning “it has been estimated”.

    Christoph Luxenberg, Bat Ye’or are outstanding authorities on the Quran and Islam respectively if any are actually interested.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  179. daley – not sure you caught the reference, but the French call the … climax “the little death.”

    carlitos – I caught the reference when you made it. I is edumacated.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  180. More “exploding cigar” novelty from a serial Liberal abuser:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/297168/cuisines-my-stepfather-mark-steyn?pg=2

    The Dog is the first monogamist in his titular line. So the option taken for legitimacy has multi-culti payback for ibn Dunham.

    http://www.rightpundits.com/?p=2266

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  181. Comment by Alasdair — 4/27/2012 @ 5:59 pm

    Well, I have your bare assertion and incredulity on one hand. On the other hand, we have scholarship by Jewish historians and archeologists who have actually studied the period in question.

    I will go with the facts, as always.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  182. 183. “we have scholarship by Jewish historians and archeologistsof Jewish history and archaeology [which purports] to have actually studied the period in question.”

    How would you know, unable to produce the methodology and reasoning behind the estimates. Offer us a reason to even track down your sources.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  183. Alright:

    http://faculty.biu.ac.il/~barilm/illitera.html

    At the outset he admits they have no data. Its an argument by statistical comparison with modern agarian cultures.

    I’ve worked in Guatemala. Assigning that literacy rate to Palestine, year zero C.E. is absurd. Try Belgium, doof.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  184. agrarian*

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  185. http://faculty.biu.ac.il/~barilm/illitera.html

    Thus, it is no exaggeration to say that the total literacy rate in the Land of Israel at that time (of Jews only, of course), was probably less than 3%.

    At first glance this figure looks quite low, and maybe too low. However, in a traditional society, knowing how to read was not a necessity: neither for economic reasons, nor for intellectual ones. On the contrary. Why should a farmer send his son to learn how to read when it entails a waste of working time (=money)? Why should he himself learn how to read if his culture is based on oral tradition (though with a written Torah)? According to the Torah, there is no need to read or write, except for writing the Mezuza, Tefilin, and the Torah itself. However, for these purposes there was always a scribe, so a Jew in antiquity could fulfill the commandments of the Torah while being illiterate. Not only that, but 3% of the total population seems to be high in comparison with other cultures. In ancient Egypt, a land with a lot of scribes, only half a percent were literate.28 Now, even if it is taken into consideration that training in hieroglyphs takes much more time than script with some 22 symbols, still the conclusion of the extent of literacy in a neighboring country some millennia later with literacy rates that are some six times larger than its predecessor, seems quite plausible.

    According to the growth processes in population and urbanization as mentioned above, it may be surmised that before the beginning of these processes, in the days of the Maccabees and at the end of the ‘biblical’ period, the literacy rate of the Jewish people was 1.5% if not lower. Nevertheless, if the conclusion seems farfetched, it can be rejected only by cogent arguments.29

    Conclusion

    Literacy data from all over the world show the relationship and dependence between farmers (or the state of agriculture), and literacy. This tie has been found in various peoples and in the course of time. The data ‘create’ a world-wide rule.

    The other facet of this dependence is population growth, urbanization and infant mortality that apparently go hand in hand with literacy. This connection enables the student of societies in the past to deal with the problem of literacy whenever the direct evidence is not available. This study offers a method to analyze processes that took place in a specific society so that the literacy rate may be derived.

    Comparative data show that under Roman rule the Jewish literacy rate improved in the Land of Israel. However, rabbinic sources support evidence that the literacy rate was less than 3%. This literacy rate, a small fraction of the society, though low by modern standards, was not low at all if one takes into account the needs of a traditional society in the past.

    Seriously, this is a people that had been variously enslaved, exiled to Babylon, attacked, oppressed, etc. Claiming that they somehow had a 100% literacy rate in the ancient world is an extraordinary claim, and extraordinary evidence should be provided to back this claim.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  186. Hadji and dead wife
    never had active sex life
    he died in his sheep

    Colonel Haiku (cf531c)

  187. If you’re in the USA, this google link should work to the Catherine Hezser book.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  188. Gary Gulrud,

    Well played.

    I particularly enjoyed your dismissal of the typical academic mantra, “It has been estimated…”

    I’ve come to realize it is a mantra often used by left wing academians and politicians as a predicate for either asserting the flavor of the week deconstructive theory “about what realllly happened in the past,” or asking for demanding more money from taxpayers.

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  189. Rush went beyond even the Daily Mail’s hype and claimed the allegedly proposed law had passed.

    Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood Passes Law Allowing Husbands to Have Sex with Dead Wives Up to Six Hours After Death
    RUSH: The UK Daily Mail is reporting that the Muslim Brotherhood has passed a law granting husbands permission to have sex with their wives up to six hours after the wife has died. It’s exactly right. “Egyptian husbands will soon be legally allowed to have sex with their dead wives — for up to six hours after their death. The controversial new law is part of a raft of measures being introduced by the Islamist-dominated parliament,” under the control of the Muslim Brotherhood.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (1a9f04)

  190. Colonel Haiku,

    You’re generally quite funny, but that last one with the line about dying in his sleep er, sheep, is just laugh out loud funny.

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  191. 187. “in a traditional society, knowing how to read was not a necessity: neither for economic reasons, nor for intellectual ones.”

    This is an opening paragraph operating assumption observation from empirical observation. What is not established by this point in the paper is that this analogy for Palestine holds.

    From my earlier illustration using Pagel, the jewel of the department in the most prestigious university in the nation, the conclusion doesn’t even pass cursory examination.

    Palestinians generally new Greek through extensive trade connections over the prior 500 years, Aramaic for the reasons cited in your paragraph as well as extensive trade for millenia, as well as common proficiency in other languages being the crossroads of the ancient world. A modern counterpart would be Belgium for the human traffic and cultural exposure.

    Notwithstanding the foregoing, the plain fact is there are no data worth discussing. Calling such speculation fact is asinine.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  192. Rush Limbaugh’s fact checker is as competent as Tim Geithner’s tax accountant.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  193. gg – that there is no data is fair. That was kind of my point on the 100% claim.

    Knowledge of Greek, Aramaic and Roman was for speaking. No quibble there. That they mostly weren’t writing these languages isn’t even controversial. I guess you could compare 1st century Belgium as an analogue?

    There are even stories in the bible that hint that if a dude could read the Tanakh, voila – he’s a rabbi. Podunk towns like Nazareth were likely thrilled if they had a couple of rabbis that could read, even tolerating some messianic foreigner reading to them if they had to.

    Apologies if my tone was a bit strident, just wanted Alasdair to provide something more.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  194. Thank you, elephant man. I’m just glad someone noticed. I struggled as I riffed and the one (# 71) about the “death rattle” had my noticeably taciturn wife cracking a smile…

    Colonel Haiku (cf531c)

  195. I wish the same questioning and scrutiny given being given to this troubling news “report” emanating from Egypt about alleged necrophilia would be applied to future news reports emanating from the Arab Muslim world, say, about Israeli “atrocities,” when assertions will be made that little Palestinian school children playing ball in their front yard were scooped up by members of the IDF who had visible horns protruding from underneath their hats, and then the little school children became human sacrifices, resulting in their blood becoming a main ingredient of dinner fed to a corral of hogs.

    When those news reports by local Arab Muslim media are passed on, we don’t always hear the media

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  196. Whoops…continuation of my #197…

    we don’t always hear the western media asking for confirmation or evidence of such allegations. And then when such “atrocities” are disproven, the correction often ends up on page 26 of the New York Times…after the riots and retaliations have already resulted in damage or deaths.

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  197. Dang me, I had accidentally hit “submit” prior to finishing my last couple of sentences in #197.

    Anyhow, the mainstream western media don’t always scrutinize allegations by local Arab Muslim media that Israeli “atrocities” have taken place.

    And once those allegations are disproven, the correction or clarification often ends up on page 26 of the NY Times, in between ads for Joe’s Plumbing and Macy’s two day sale for household appliances…but only after the ensuing riots, damage, and retaliation have taken place.

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  198. Yes, Hetzer dismisses Naveh and Millman, just because, Geithner is a tax cheat, and yet he runs
    the IRS, something that would have gotten a country
    banned at the World Bank from financial consideration,

    narciso (8d0f34)

  199. 195. Sorry about getting insolent, male menopause.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  200. I appreciate nk’s contributions to this thread.

    It’s not the Quran or Muhammad that’s the problem here. I’m not saying the Quran or Muhammad are flawless (by any stretch), but the problem is cultural and present tense. If someone wanted to interpret that New Testament or Talmud a certain way, and then add on a few inspired views akin to modern fatwahs, you could easily have sexist and barbaric Jews and Christians. That kind of thing has and does happen.

    Similarly, there are plenty of contemporary Muslims who find these Egyptian reforms to be evil and even sacrilegious.

    Much of the geopolitical conflict and cultural discord has its roots in the fall of the Ottoman and Roman empires and conflict with Israel, and I think Islam’s interpretation is a reflection of that conflict (and not the other way around).

    Dustin (330eed)

  201. One needs to tread carefully, although Ibrahim’s link seems to give more credence, Samea the original source, is a longtime Mubarak stalwart

    narciso (8d0f34)

  202. This all reminds me so much of the Iranian revolution in 1979.

    Dustin (330eed)

  203. Which is frankly unfair to Iran. I don’t see Iran ever tolerating sex with dead people. It’s disgusting.

    Dustin (330eed)

  204. love up my dead wife?
    and Iran, Iran so far
    away.. IjustRan

    Colonel Haiku (d3ebb6)

  205. My Persian princess,
    I would not violate her
    dignity this way.

    A Flock of Seagulls
    had so many big, big plans
    for those royalties

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  206. Q: What does average Iranian husband do when wife refuses his nightly lovemaking demands?

    A: Ghotbzadeh

    Colonel Haiku (d3ebb6)

  207. It seems to me, whether or not the story is true, that focusing on how a woman was treated in life the years prior to her death is more important than how her body is treated the 6 hours after her death. I think it would be wonderful if a society’s criminal justice system had “everything under control” in regards to the living and needed to devote resources to investigating what people do with the body of their deceased spouse, before and after 6 hours post death.
    Not advocating for anything, just sayin’.

    Re Elephant Stone’s comments above- Back in the last conflict Israel had with Hezbollah in Lebanon there was a ton of info in a European-based blog on a fellow I believe nicknamed “the Green Helmet Guy”, who was found somewhere in about every picture every released said to be from the scene of an Israeli atrocity of bombing civilians, etc. (in many places over years). The suggestion was made that actually this fellow was in charge of fabricating such scenes, either out of whole cloth or making a legitimate target (like an ambulance that had been converted to a missile transport) look like a civilian disaster. There was a convincing amount of evidence presented.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  208. and that man’s name, MD??? Mahmoud Packer.

    Colonel Haiku (d3ebb6)

  209. Mahmoud was surprised
    when the Earth moved for dead wife
    only an earthquake

    Colonel Haiku (d3ebb6)

  210. It seems to me, whether or not the story is true, that focusing on how a woman was treated in life the years prior to her death is more important than how her body is treated the 6 hours after her death.

    Wow. I hope I’m misunderstanding you, but how a woman is treated in life is often reflected at her death. Clearly, in an ME country, a woman is viewed and treated as less than a dog and nothing more than a breeder and beast of burden, so it would stand that the radical Islmaic males would continue to subjugate and abuse even after death. Women would perhaps grieve and mourn the loss – but only with permission. Dignity in life and after death, is still dignity.

    How is this okay?

    Dana (4eca6e)

  211. I agree with you, Dana, that the point of this issue is that women are not being given basic dignity and respect after they have died.

    MD surely agrees. He’s noting the same lack of basic respect in life.

    One way to keep a miserable people in line is to stratify them so at least they are better off than some ‘other’. This reminds me of antebellum USA. But the irony is that one great way for poor countries to prosper is to embrace the abilities of the entire population, such as the half that are women.

    Dustin (330eed)

  212. “I appreciate nk’s contributions to this thread.”

    So do I and would appreciate it if he would explain his reference to hypocrisy earlier in the thread. I’m with Dana @212 that the mistreatment of women in strict Islamic society in the ME is so well documented that there is no reason to ask for proof of mistreatment. Pointing a finger at that mistreatment does not make one a bigot or a hypocrite. The facts are the facts.

    Muslims in other parts of the world may not treat their women as callously or cruelly as those in the ME. Why?

    Nancy Lugosi (bf33e9)

  213. This will likely go into moderation, because I wrote moderation:

    There was an old hermit named Dave,
    Who kept a dead w**** in his cave,
    She was missing a t** and smelled like s***,
    But he said, “Think of all the money I save”.

    This story falls into that category.

    nk (875f57)

  214. Damn sock

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  215. This doesn’t just show tremendous disrespect to women. It’s actually even more disrespectful to the men who are assumed to be thinking of doing this. At any time someone who would want to do this should be locked up in a mental institution, but for this to be your first thought when you just learned your wife died? For Egypt to think its men benefited from this reform says a lot about the priorities they think their people have.

    Muslims in other parts of the world may not treat their women as callously or cruelly as those in the ME. Why?

    My answer to this would be that Islam is not the actual problem. It’s something else. As I said, I think the Islamic interpretation and additions via fatwah are reflections of issues in that region.

    Dustin (330eed)

  216. Nancy, I’m sorry for missing your comment earlier. By “hypocrisy” I was referring to us lending our Air Force to Lybian Islamists, to our alliances with, and finacial aid to, Egypt, Pakistan, Afghanistan ….

    nk (875f57)

  217. Muslims in other parts of the world may not treat their women as callously or cruelly as those in the ME.

    Totally true. Turkey had a woman Prime Minister. If some mullah in Albania or Bosnia tried to put a woman in a burkha, he’d be searching for his head, from her, her father and her brothers would just be guarding her back.

    nk (875f57)

  218. My answer to this would be that Islam is not the actual problem. It’s something else. As I said, I think the Islamic interpretation and additions via fatwah are reflections of issues in that region.

    Dustin, do you think it’s women who want this alleged reform???

    I point you to Lara Logan being hand-raped by 200-300 Egyptian men who believed it their right to be able to do that to her. And these were not *even* radical Islamist – but then in the ME, is there any other kind when it comes to the treatment of women?

    Dana (4eca6e)

  219. This doesn’t just show tremendous disrespect to women. It’s actually even more disrespectful to the men who are assumed to be thinking of doing this. At any time someone who would want to do this should be locked up in a mental institution, but for this to be your first thought when you just learned your wife died? For Egypt to think its men benefited from this reform says a lot about the priorities they think their people have.

    Dustin, men don’t have any self respect there to begin with as evidenced by their historical treatment of women. So to me, it’s laughable to even consider this might be disrespectful to men – it is men making the alleged decisions.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  220. “My answer to this would be that Islam is not the actual problem. It’s something else. As I said, I think the Islamic interpretation and additions via fatwah are reflections of issues in that region.”

    Dustin – Given that there is no central authority such as the Vatican, are not the interpretations and fatwas by definition, even if twisted, Islam itself?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  221. Comment by Dustin — 4/28/2012 @ 10:52 am

    It appears that Egypt is a “mental institution”, and the inmates are running the asylum.

    Nurse Ratched, call your office!

    AD-RtR/OS! (93973a)

  222. Dana – Would you position change at all if the dead wife was still super hot and the body and face not messed up much from whatever caused the death?

    I can certainly understand some repugnance from old hag type sprouting hairy moles and stuff.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  223. Ducks hiking boot

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  224. it’s laughable to even consider this might be disrespectful to men – it is men making the alleged decisions.

    You’re right that men are making this decision, but I think they unknowingly show tremendous contempt for themselves. They probably think this kind of insanity if human nature, when actually they are excusing their own attitudes instead of becoming civilized.

    Dustin, do you think it’s women who want this alleged reform???

    I assume many women are probably frustrated by this, and sadly many know better than to express that view. It might even be a preference cascade. Regardless, the views of women are irrelevant to the Egyptian legal ‘reform’.

    I point you to Lara Logan being hand-raped by 200-300 Egyptian men

    And the media did not adequately cover this problem, which was not an isolated incident, because it exposed that the uprising against Mubarak was going to lead to a more barbaric Egypt.

    Dustin (330eed)

  225. Colonel Haiku,

    I enoyed your use of A Flock of Seagulls’ “I Ran”—which is obviously what the Charles Johnsons and Ron Pauls of the world tend to do when faced with inconvenient questions in comment threads.

    Anyhow, courtesy of The Bangles, here’s a first verse to a song which could inspire a funny Weird Al Yankovic couple of following verses, for the topic at hand…

    All the old paintings on the tomb
    They do the sand dance, don’cha know?
    If they move too quick (Oh-Way-Oh)
    They’re falling down like a domino

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  226. daley, if I didn’t believe you a sweetheart who respects the fairer sex, it would either be a spiked heel or hiking boot. Both would be neatly effective.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  227. It appears that Egypt is a “mental institution”, and the inmates are running the asylum.

    That’s the best way to sum it up.

    And this is how the situation reminds me of the Iranian revolution. These idiotic views were not resolved. They were simply dominated over by a more pro western leader. That was better than letting the inmates run the asylum, but it didn’t advance civilization.

    The painful truth is that these countries need to resolve these values somehow. Iraq’s more painful process may have been a more productive path (though I fear that it may have been squandered). I do not understand Obama’s plans here.

    Dustin (330eed)

  228. It is difficult to understand that which does not exist!

    AD-RtR/OS! (93973a)

  229. True

    Dustin (330eed)

  230. Their view of women would seem to be summed up thus (and IMO, Islam in their side of the world is at the root of it): In every way men believe themselves to be smarter, stronger chosen deities; women, a far lesser creature. However, being sexual creatures, these deified men lust after these lesser creatures which creates a horrible tension in them because at some base level, women have some control over these men who see themselves as completely in control and dominant over women.

    So, these little deities lust after the very thing they loathe and abuse yet need to reproduce themselves. It’s the needing part, I think, that perpetuates the hate. I hate that I need a dog… of course, they don’t think this through or analyze it in any way…just hysterical reactionaries with a sex drive and the outlet is someone not worthy of them.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  231. No, Dana. You read the extreme. Men love women, and Muslim men are still men. They love their mothers, their wives, their daughters, and they love women in all. We hear the worse, we don’t see the usual or the best.

    nk (875f57)

  232. Even in their best settings, they still exist in a primitive, tribal, culture; complete with all of its failings.
    Until they are ready to get beyond that, the brutality and wretchedness of their existence shall continue.

    AD-RtR/OS! (93973a)

  233. I disagree, nk. And I referred to the ME, not the West. There are exceptions, no doubt, but overall, I would disagree with you.

    Perhaps, one must define love before making the comparison.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  234. My dad and two of my uncles grew up in Iran and they love their wives and daughters and mother very much. The gentlest man I ever met was Baba Bozorg (grandfather), and one of my oldest memories is his interactions with Mama Bazorg as they played with my little sister and taught my mother how to cook Iranian food. These were loving people. So loving that I think it would embarrass most westerners with all the hugging. They were devout Muslims. I learned East and what prayer was from them.

    They aren’t Egyptian, but it’s worth noting that 99% of men in Egypt were not consulted by the people who made this ‘reform’. I bet most men in Egypt think this is disgusting, but don’t speak out.

    Dana’s observation is something that is really out there. And it has power. But one of the biggest lies in the Middle East is that this extreme sexist thing is the One True Islam.

    Dustin (330eed)

  235. “No, Dana. You read the extreme. Men love women, and Muslim men are still men. They love their mothers, their wives, their daughters, and they love women in all. We hear the worse, we don’t see the usual or the best.”

    nk – There is not necessarily any conflict between what you say above and the Taliban preventing girls from going to school or the Saudis from letting women drive. That is what they believe is best for the women they love.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  236. “But one of the biggest lies in the Middle East is that this extreme sexist thing is the One True Islam.”

    I think one of the biggest lies is that there is one true Islam.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  237. Dustin – Does you father say Iranian society has changed for the better or worse since the Revolution?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  238. Dustin,

    Why do you suppose the men in Egypt who find it disgusting are fearful of speaking out ?

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  239. elephant stone… teh bangles?

    Egyptian gurls do so much
    And for so long, ’til we touched
    I loved you, boy, never mind
    I’ve been crying all the time

    Egyptian boys got it bad
    Egyptian boys got it bad, woo

    Egyptian gurls, I don’t know why
    How can I deny what’s inside?
    Even though I keep away
    They will love all our days

    Egyptian boys got it bad
    Egyptian boys got it bad

    Colonel Haiku (f07db7)

  240. Absolutely, daleyrocks. That is the Wahabis in Saudi Arabia and, maybe, the Iranian ayatollahs, who try to enforce an orthodoxy. A militant orthodoxy.

    But 98% of the Islamic world do not agree with them. There are fire worshippers in Lebanon who revere the Peackock God and sky worshippers in Chechnya who build towers to Sky. And Turkish generals poised to stomp Al Qaeda or Khameini.

    nk (875f57)

  241. marriage restriction
    if coroner had his way
    he’d lose his license

    Colonel Haiku (f07db7)

  242. Love cannot be defined, Dana. It is an imaginary number. Loki’s wife voluntarily condemned herself to Hell for all eternity holding a bowl above his face to keep off the serpent’s poison.

    We can talk about Prometheus and Christ some other time.

    nk (875f57)

  243. Loki’s wife is a good egg

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  244. Love cannot be defined.

    Again, nk, I would disagree.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  245. Alright, the nails on the rock and the eagle tearing at the liver, or the nails on the cross and the lance in the heart?

    Is that the limit?

    nk (875f57)

  246. if lovin’ dead wrong
    Aziz din’t wanna be right
    crazy ’bout his gal

    Colonel Haiku (f07db7)

  247. Babu not a fan
    cuz he knew dead bride when she
    used to rock and roll

    Colonel Haiku (f07db7)

  248. Give it up, Haiku. Tom Petty and Kim Basinger beat you to it, long time ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aowSGxim_O8&ob=av3n

    (Music video, Last Dance With Mary Jane, might not be safe for work.)

    nk (875f57)

  249. Ramses thought sexy
    Fatima’s Secret® nightie
    just might do the trick

    Colonel Haiku (f07db7)

  250. Tut Petty and the Cryptbreakers, nk…

    Colonel Haiku (f07db7)

  251. Back (somewhat) on topic, Mubarak had a good run. Sadat’s death was serendipitous for him, as Nasser’s was for Sadat, and we won’t talk about Naguib. Egypt’s “democracy” has one voter — Azrael.

    nk (875f57)

  252. Dana, thank you for questioning. I believe Dustin already clarified my point.

    While you are correct that how a person is treated after death may well be reflective of how they were treated during life, that is my point. How women are treated during life seems to me to be the bigger issue to be upset about. Being treated as less than a dog during life is the big crime, the woman is alive and suffering. A dead body is a dead body, the person and personality that knew joy and suffering is no longer there.

    I did not say that the practice, if indeed explicitly made legal or illegal, was “OK”, nor did I say that the practice may or may not reflect attitudes toward women in society as a whole. I was simply saying that the priority for concern is how live women are treated, and spare us the sensationalism of this debateable practice.

    Now, if you want to make the argument that such a practice, if given approval by society, contributes to attitudes that encourage the ongoing mistreatment of living women, that would be a wonderful reason to make a law against the practice.

    I imagine this story, if true, was perhaps intended to communicate, “Look how horrible those people are, even after the women die they are still subject to abuse!” While that may make an effective way to motivate disgust, I think of it (or would rather prefer not to think of it) as sort of a “distraction”. To refer to a hyperbole to make the point, it would be as if there was an argument over whether or not to make it illegal to do mass burials of civilian victims of atrocities, the argument is a bit beside the point. Yes, mass graves may be reflective of genocidal massacre, but it is the genocidal massacre that was the big deal, not the manner of burial. The manner of burial may be disgusting because that is the evidence we see of the monstrous acts that took place and pictures of the findings may be displayed in a courtroom, but it is the monstrous act of mass murder that is the center of attention.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  253. Property is property. Who are we to judge what is right or wrong?
    Comment by daleyrocks — 4/27/2012 @ 7:46 am

    — Thread-winner, right there ^^^

    Icy (6e8a1d)

  254. Mustapha’s wife had
    not felt well but cold shoulder
    truly surprised him

    Colonel Haiku (f07db7)

  255. Allah blessed Aziz
    he took his wife at start of
    daylight savings time

    Colonel Haiku (f07db7)

  256. Allah blessed Aziz
    he took his wife at start end of
    daylight savings time

    Colonel Haiku (f07db7)

  257. But, in the abstract, if a country has a high death rate, lowering the marriageable age is a population survival mechanism, so that there are at least two generations to take care of the baby. Iran did it after Saddam Hussein wiped out an entire generation of young men, with our blessing.
    Comment by nk — 4/27/2012 @ 7:55 am

    — The Ayatollah lowered the marriage age in Iran to more closely reflect the stories in the Qu’ran and Islamic tradition. It had nothing to do with “population survival” in the wake of war, and the population of Iran actually grew steadily throughout the 80’s.

    Icy (6e8a1d)

  258. Good stuff, Colonel.

    By the way, I heard chatter that some officers are considering recommending additional stripes to put on that jacket of yours. That means you and Mrs. Haiku will get larger living quarters on base. Think of it…that spare knitting room she envisions can actually be your “Haiku room.”

    You tell her, “No Haiku room, no peace.”

    I was unclear if you got my drift, but The Bangles’ song that I provided the first verse from was, “Walk Like an Egyptian.”

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  259. since dead wife looked like
    Egyptian Marjorie Main
    plain grief worked for him

    Colonel Haiku (f07db7)

  260. Comment by Icy — 4/28/2012 @ 2:41 pm

    Seventh century, when the Koran was written, war, edge of starvation, no medicine to speak of, same reason I would guess.

    nk (875f57)

  261. strange new law opened
    a whole new job field for teh
    gay grief counselor

    Colonel Haiku (f07db7)

  262. Most blogs don’t have readers who can drop Marjorie Main’s name into a thread that is generally about the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

    Colonel, here’s another talented mid-century matronly character actress whose name could fit into a Haiku stanza…Spring Byington…as in, “Arab Spring Byington,” or something.

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  263. From a 1986 magazine article:
    between 1980 and 1985 Iran’s population rose from 35,8 million to 43.4 million. This was in spite of the heavy death toll among Iran’s military forces in the six-year-old Gulf War with Iraq
    — Now, was the Ayatollah, at least in-part, intending to generate new cannon fodder? Absolutely. But there is no evidence I can find that he lowered the marriage in an attempt to stave off annihilation.
    Bottom Line: Allah allowed Muhammad to marry a 9-year-old girl, and if it was acceptable for the prophet then it was acceptable for all Muslims. Ideology over strategy; or, ideology AS strategy.

    Icy (6e8a1d)

  264. i got it, elephant stone

    teh bangles…

    if she he knew what she wants that she’s dead
    he’d be givin’ it to her

    Colonel Haiku (f07db7)

  265. Most blogs don’t have readers who can drop Marjorie Main’s name into a thread that is generally about the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

    I think Ma Kettle would have been a very serious problem for the Muslim Brotherhood.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  266. It’s like Warren Jeffs and the polygamist Mormon cults. They’re just using religion as a cover for getting their pedophilia ‘freak’ on and boinking little girls.

    Icy (6e8a1d)

  267. Abdul felt cheated
    wife’s open glass eye fooled him
    his six hours were up

    Colonel Haiku (f07db7)

  268. Col @ 261 & 269 – made me laugh out loud…yet felt a bit wrong about it, too. :)

    Dana (4eca6e)

  269. Mustapha played rough
    all’s fair love and war left her
    with thousand yard stare

    Colonel Haiku (f07db7)

  270. yeah, Dana… I’m even starting to disgust myself, but I can’t stop laughing.

    Colonel Haiku (f07db7)

  271. fukt like egyptian
    seventy two virgin gig
    lost to Fatima

    Colonel Haiku (f07db7)

  272. no bo dy go wrong
    mak ing up s*** a bout some
    sca ry for eign ers

    nk (875f57)

  273. NK,

    Actually, friend, this is a news story that we’ve been told has emanated from local media in Egypt.

    Please don’t infer that xenophobic Americans made up the story. After all, that would qualify as, uh, making s*** up, wouldn’t it ?

    Although, you’re correct, the Muslim Brotherhood is pretty scary.

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  274. I thought I was saying that for like minutes, Elephant Stone.

    nk (875f57)

  275. – The Ayatollah lowered the marriage age in Iran to more closely reflect the stories in the Qu’ran and Islamic tradition. It had nothing to do with “population survival” in the wake of war, and the population of Iran actually grew steadily throughout the 80′s.

    Comment by Icy

    The death rate in Iran during to the extremely bloody Iran-Iraq war climbed from 12 per thousand to 17 per thousand, but it’s true that the birth rate continued to outpace the death rate.

    However, it did have a big impact on the number of men of a certain age group. Iran also had many people leave the country during this time (but it’s still true the population grew and continues to grow quickly).

    I think some of these stories about Islamic tradition were selected or interpreted to match policy goals, and population growth is among them. And recovering from a loss of many able bodied men was one of those goals.

    It’s the equivalent of the USA losing five million men of prime working age. It would have an enormous impact on policy.

    Dustin (330eed)

  276. It’s like Warren Jeffs and the polygamist Mormon cults. They’re just using religion as a cover for getting their pedophilia ‘freak’ on and boinking little girls.

    Comment by Icy

    Agreed.

    And in many religions, you can find sexism or other stuff most folks disagree with these days. But I wouldn’t blame the religion. That’s a cop out. Anyone sleeping with their deceased spouse needs to be locked up in an asylum.

    Dustin (330eed)

  277. A lot of defenders of muslims state that muslims as a whole are good and decent people.

    And certainly, that’s been my experience – the muslims that I’ve known personally are by and large good and decent people.

    But what’s always disturbed me are two things: the first is that there is a large segment of islamic religious belief that appears to condone violent behavior and the second, relatedly, is that the topics that show up as debateable religious questions among islamic religious leaders are about some really sick stuff. This “story” – true or not – is rooted in an actual fatwa discussing the religious acceptability of the behavior in question.

    Why is it that this is what islamic religious leaders find a debate topic? You don’t find a lot of Lutheran theologians debating necrophilia. You don’t find any Catholics debating whether bestiality is a venal or mortal sin.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  278. And in many religions, you can find sexism or other stuff most folks disagree with these days. But I wouldn’t blame the religion. That’s a cop out. Anyone sleeping with their deceased spouse needs to be locked up in an asylum.

    Using the cover of religion normalizes the sickness rather than criminalizing it.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  279. It’s like Warren Jeffs and the polygamist Mormon cults. They’re just using religion as a cover for getting their pedophilia ‘freak’ on and boinking little girls.

    Comment by Icy

    They are “Mormons” in the same sense that Nancy Pelosi would be a “Catholic” if she were excommunicated from her church.

    They have been excommunicated from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

    Colonel Haiku (37c989)

  280. And the fact that Nancy hasn’t been can be laid squarely at the liquified feet of the Archbishops of San Francisco, and Washington DC.

    AD-RtR/OS! (45c403)

  281. aziz shy at first
    but he soon knew it was best
    zombie sex evah!

    Colonel Haiku (d04f33)

  282. It seems to me that the position of women in the Muslim world is shaped by culture, history and Islamic texts and interpretations. Sharia establishes differences between the rights and roles of men and women and practices among Muslim-majority countries with respect to education, legal status, civil rights, marriage, divorce, dress code, and other matters varies.

    Acknowledgement of these differences is a question of fact rather than opinion and says nothing about the individual relationship between a man and a woman. What is definitely a matter of opinion and a subject of intense debate is whether the differences are appropriate or just and whether, as circumstances warrant, based upon correct interpretations of Islam.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  283. They are “Mormons” in the same sense that Nancy Pelosi would be a “Catholic” if she were excommunicated from her church.

    — Colonel, I was careful to label it a “cult”. It is the MSM that calls it a “sect”.

    Icy (3eea39)

  284. I wrote at 108: Comment by Sammy Finkelman — 4/27/2012 @ 12:07 pm

    But their aim may be to embarass one of the candidates running for president.

    I think I may have found an indication of what this was all about yesterday.

    You see I was thinking about Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh. He was expelled from the Muslim Brotherhood, and is running for president as something of a liberal.

    The election situation is described here: (in the view of the New York Times which measn it must be read cautiously)

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/26/opinion/egypts-chaotic-election.html

    Editorial
    Egypt’s Chaotic Election
    Published: April 25, 2012

    The presidential election commission sowed confusion and doubt when it disqualified 10 of 23 candidates for president, including Omar Suleiman, a secularist who was Mr. Mubarak’s former spy chief; Khairat el-Shater, a chief strategist of the Muslim Brotherhood; and Hazem Salah Abu Ismail, an ultraconservative Salafi preacher. All three were considered front-runners — and polarizing figures — and were ruled off the ballot on technical grounds. We don’t pretend to know all of the forces at work here. Both the military and the Islamists, who have been battling for control, lost their top candidates. But the disqualifications have fed conspiracy theories and added to doubts about the legitimacy of the entire process.

    So who’s left? The disqualifications were a boost for Amr Moussa, a secularist and former foreign minister, and Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh, a liberal Islamist reformer. They are seen as the leading candidates along with Mohamed Morsi, the Brotherhood’s current choice.

    The Brotherhood has the strongest organization. But Mr. Morsi is not as well known or as influential as Mr. Shater. His election would also give the Islamists control of both the presidency and Parliament, and his conservative religious vision rightly makes many Egyptians, as well as the West, uneasy. He has called for barring women and non-Muslims from the presidency on the basis of Islamic law, or Shariah, and he has made inflammatory statements about Israel, describing its citizens as “killers and vampires.” The two other leading candidates offer less ideological and more practical approaches that seek to appeal to a broad range of Egyptians. Mr. Moussa, a former Arab League secretary general with wide name recognition, has pledged to eradicate illiteracy, create jobs, attract international aid and “care for the marginalized and the weak.” His links to Mr. Mubarak could hurt him.

    Mr. Aboul Fotouh is charismatic and is seen as a pious man, but not an extremist. He was expelled from the Brotherhood last year for advocating a more tolerant and inclusive approach to Islam and Egypt.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  285. What this is all about:

    I thought when I read this item on Patterico, that maybe they wanted to present Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouhhim with this as a wedge issue:

    Either he refuses to endorse a law authorzing a man to have sex with his dead wife and loses his Islamic credentials – for how can he not endorse something endorsed by Islam (according to them anyway) – or he endorses it and loses his more liberal votes.

    Now yesterday Sunday, there was a New York Times headline that indicates this may have been about more than mere votes: (and it failed)

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/world/middleeast/conservatives-in-egypt-back-liberal-to-oppose-brotherhood.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

    Published: April 28, 2012, printed on the fromnt page Sunday April 29, 2012:

    Support From Islamists for Liberal Upends Race in Egypt

    By David D. Kirkpatrick and Mayy El Sheikh

    ABU HOMOS, Egypt — Egypt’s most conservative Islamists endorsed a liberal Islamist for president late Saturday night, upending the political landscape and confounding expectations about the internal dynamics of the Islamist movement.

    The main missionary and political groups of the ultraconservatives, known as Salafis, threw their support behind Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh, a dissident former leader of the Muslim Brotherhood known for his tolerant and inclusive view of Islamic law.

    The endorsement goes a long way toward making Mr. Aboul Fotouh the front-runner in a campaign that could shape the ultimate outcome of the revolt that ousted the former strongman, Hosni Mubarak.

    Mr. Aboul Fotouh’s liberal understanding of Islamic law on matters of individual freedom and economic equality had already made him the preferred candidate of many Egyptian liberals.

    His endorsement on Saturday by the Salafis now makes him the candidate of Egypt’s most determined conservatives, too. Known for their strict focus on Islamic law, the Salafis often talk of reviving medieval Islamic corporal punishments, restricting women’s dress and the sale of alcohol, and cracking down on heretical culture.

    The decision was announced by officials of the preaching group the Salafi Call and on the Web site of its allied party, Al Nour. Neither group gave a definitive reason for their pick….

    That explains why they introduced that bill about a man having sex with his dead wife (and several other matters. they wanted to break u[p the impending alliance between the Salafis and the liberals.

    Why the Salafis did it could be because they were afraid they were be arrested in a new Moslem Brotherhood dictatorship. Also there are some old ties.

    Mr. Aboul Fotouh, a physician who led the Brotherhood-dominated medical association, was a founder of a 1970s student movement that revitalized Islamist politics here. He was expelled from the Brotherhood last year for defying the decision of its leaders to bar members from running for president or engaging in politics outside its own political party.

    Wasn’t Zawahiri a doctor too? I think Zawahiri left tehe Mslem Brotherhood anbd help found Egyptian Islamic Jihad, which later assassinated Sadat and merged with Al Qaeda.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  286. The Moslem Brotherhood seems to be pulling out all the stops and going for every last vote:

    http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=268104

    Hamas’s Zahar obtains Egyptian citizenship
    By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

    Zahar says he’ll vote for an Islamist candidate in Egypt elections, got citizenship under law that was little used under Mubarak.

    Mahmoud Zahar, a top Hamas leader in the Gaza Strip, revealed Monday that he has obtained Egyptian citizenship thanks to an Egyptian law that allows Palestinians born to Egyptian mothers to become Egyptian nationals…Asked whether he was planning to vote in the upcoming Egyptian presidential election, Zahar said he would cast his ballot for one of the Islamist candidates.

    He’s not saying who.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)


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