Patterico's Pontifications

4/21/2012

Zimmerman Has a Very Good Day

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 1:21 am

So let’s review the bidding.

We have a photo of George Zimmerman’s head from the night of the incident.

Which is obviously clear evidence that Zimmerman brutally attacked Trayvon Martin with, um, the back of his head.

Then we have a probable cause hearing where the lead investigator admitted that, in the words of the Associated Press, “there is no evidence to disprove Zimmerman’s contention he was walking back to his vehicle when confronted by Martin.”

But, the AP adds,

Gilbreath also said Zimmerman’s claim that Martin was slamming his head against the sidewalk just before he shot the teenager was “not consistent with the evidence we found.” He gave no details.

But-cept, didn’t you see that picture, Mr. Gilbreath? Isn’t that kinda sorta evidence of the guy getting his head slammed into the sidewalk?

Where is this murder charge coming from again?

Other than the special prosecutor’s ass, that is.

376 Responses to “Zimmerman Has a Very Good Day”

  1. stop it Pat: yer killing me with this.

    how dare you question the meme?

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  2. I think Zimmerman saying he was sorry to the family for their loss was a good thing, in terms of media and perception.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  3. The lead investigator is now worthless as a trial witness. Great decision by the defense attorney to ask the judge to call him for the purpose of establishing the weakness of the state’s case in order to influence the amount of bail. That is the obvious benefit, but it is secondary.

    More important — and Patrick will back me up on this — is that the defense attorney now has the lead gov’t investigator admitting under oath that he has no significant evidence that establishes that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation.

    Zimmerman can now testify to his version of events without fear of serious contradiction from the police. Any cop who gets on the stand now to offer something in that regard will be rebutted by testimony the defense will offer from the lead invesitgator, who they will call in order to have him repeat his testimony in the bail hearing today. If he tries to change his testimony, he’ll be caught in the classic “Are you lying now to the jury, or were you lying at the bail hearing to the jugde.”

    One thing good trial lawyers do is minimize the number of times a witness is examined under oath. That always generates a question and answer transcript, and two or much such transcripts from the same witness provide fertile grounds for cross-examination. Witnesses can NEVER retell their story twice in a perfectly consistent manner. So, any discrepancy — however minor — will be blown up on cross-examination and used to undermine the credibility of the witness.

    shipwreckedcrew (beac54)

  4. Looks like a cut to me.

    Which makes me wonder if it’s self inflicted to boost his story.

    scrubone (49d334)

  5. Florida allows discovery in criminal cases. But it goes both ways. If initiated, defense must allow questioning of their witness(es) and the person charged (as I read the statutes). Which may be a good thing in this case, after all, they examined Z for hours, all of it taped. Would that be a good idea?

    Also, Florida has a couple of ways for the defense to pursue a speedy trial. One amounts to the defense declaring they’re ready for trial. The trial must be held within 60 days. My guess is the prosecutor is betting this won’t happen until after the election is over.

    Shades of Duke U arising.

    cedarhill (4ab585)

  6. scrubone : This might be of interest to you. It was supposed to have appeared in a pro-Nazi newspaper in the 1930′s. “An elderly Jewish man attacked a group of Hilter Youths – beating them brutally about the fists and boots with his face and groin . . . “

    Michael M. Keohane (4c3b02)

  7. I am no lawyer and I didn’t stay at the Holiday Inn Express, but what struck me was the prosecutor who kept asking things like, “After you committed this crime, blah, blah, blah…”

    For example, in the video here, at the 2:44 mark, the prosecutor, says, “Before you committed this crime on February 26th,…”

    Shouldn’t the defense lawyers have been all over that?

    Con Man (15d2c7)

  8. You have to provide a list of your witnesses, and it is unethical to advise them not to talk to opposing counnsel, but they cannot be compelled. The defendant certainly cannot be compelled and there is no penalty, in terms of reciprocal discovery or any other form, if you advise him not to talk or notify the police and the prosecution in advance that they may not question him. Fifth and Sixth Amendments.

    nk (875f57)

  9. Is there some way to go after a prosecutor who has done this? From what I’ve seen and read, there’s not enough to prove manslaughter.

    The ABC iPhone photograph contains metadata including exact time and GPS position. The injuries can be confirmed by the person who took the picture and by the paramedics who treated him. Zimmerman was obviously not winning the fight, if there was one. Regardless of who initiated the contact, it looks as if Zimmerman could easily have believed that his life was in jeopardy. The shooting was done in self defense.

    Arch (0baa7b)

  10. Patterico, I think you’ve found the exact place from where the Prosecutor’s charge was discovered. Perhaps you could do the collegial thing and call her to let her know.

    NJRob (fe68e7)

  11. the way Zimmerman’s scalp is split in a straight line is consistent with his head being repeatedly smacked on concrete or asphalt.

    Colonel Haiku (34ef2e)

  12. So, once this case is dismissed, what actions can Zimmerman take against the black panthers and al Sharpton? And ABC? And NBC? There needs to be some monetary compensation for the hell they’ve put this guy through.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  13. Some of the TV Talking Heads claim something like “the prosecution has something they are holding back.”

    Aren’t you supposed to put on your probative evidence at a hearing like this? Even a bail hearing?

    DN (7fc565)

  14. if you think justice in America is gay thank Pam Bondi

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  15. Greetings:

    Of course, if one assumes that the government’s strategy was “to encourage the others” and to let the process be the punishment, Mr. Zimmerman has, as of yet, nothing to feel good about.

    I think that there’s a another subliminal meta-message here to white males, even white-Hispanic males, about what the 21st Century political pecking order really is. Similarly, but different, is the meta-message to Sharpton, et al. that their “get whitey” fantasies can become reality both politically and financially.

    Mr. Zimmerman and his family will suffer both socially and financially while the process is the punishment continues. And, I would bet that Eric (My People) Holder’s Department of Justice is raising its own legal Sword of Damocles to position over Mr. Zimmerman’s head if and when the local effort unravels and they concoct their opportunity to get a bite of Mr. Zimmerman’s apples.

    All in all, Mr. Zimmerman and his family will have an interesting two to five years of legal misery while the bereaved Martin family figures out how much their dead son’s trademark will be worth.

    Lastly, in the very limited news clips I saw on TV, Mr. Zimmerman seemed quite small physically. I don’t know if that was just my perception. The “talking head” didn’t mention that at all.

    11B40 (fd0c85)

  16. The man has lost a lot of weight… probably, not much of an appetite, all things considered.

    Colonel Haiku (34ef2e)

  17. Gilbreath: “We have a witness statement who observed shadows or figures running by her residence.”

    Of course, one black and one white-hispanic shadow. Which shadow did your witness observe chasing the other?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  18. O’MARA: Ok. Have you ever had your nose broken?

    GILBREATH: No.

    O’MARA: Have you ever had your nose fractured or broken.

    GILBREATH: No.

    O’MARA: You know that that was an injury that Mr. Zimmerman sustained, correct?

    GILBREATH: I know that that is an injury that is reported to have sustained. I haven’t seen any medical records to indicate that.

    O’MARA: Have you asked him for them?

    GILBREATH: Have I asked him for them? No.

    O’MARA: Do you want a copy of them?

    GILBREATH: Sure.

    O’MARA: I’ll give them to the state. It’s a more appropriate way to do it. If you haven’t had them yet, I don’t want to cross you on them.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  19. “So, once this case is dismissed, what actions can Zimmerman take against the black panthers and al Sharpton? And ABC? And NBC? There needs to be some monetary compensation for the hell they’ve put this guy through.”

    The black panthers have money? lol.

    NBC and ABC will pay up to settle the case quickly. Al Sharpton will likely go to trial and play the race card repeatedly.

    This is Richard Jewel all over again.

    The Borg (3274b5)

  20. Rev. Sharpton needs to cue up his pom pom squad again right away.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  21. Call me “cynical,” but if his name had been Zawihiri rather than Zimmerman, I think the media would be warning us against “a rush to judgment.”

    Elephant Stone (0ae97d)

  22. Any bets on when some NBC/MSNBC racist rabble rouser announces the bloody head pic is an obvious fake?

    George Zimmerman’s early mug shots (in comparison to a 12 year old TraMar) show him with a bushy head of hair. QED

    ropelight (5cc6b1)

  23. Any bets on when some NBC/MSNBC racist rabble rouser announces the bloody head pic is an obvious fake?

    George Zimmerman’s early mug shots (in comparison to a 12 year old TraMar) show him with a bushy head of hair. QED

    I would like that explained, actually.

    Patterico (feda6b)

  24. #23 – Patterico, aren’t those pictures, of Zimmerman in an orange jumpsuit, several years old? His suited pictures (which look like “employee of the month” photos) show receding hair.

    Sometimes guys lose their hair in very short order.

    Dianna (f12db5)

  25. Yes, that mugshot was not related to an arrest in the present case. (there was no arrest or mugshot early in the case)

    They are years old.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  26. THe mugshot is one from Orange County, when they charged Zimmerman with battery on a law enforcement officer in 2005
    (That charge that was ultimately dismissed)

    It was given to the media as a handout by the Orange County Sheriff’s office for inclusion in reports of his being charged in Trayvon Martin’s case – for some reason.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  27. Patterico, Dianna and Sarahw pretty much covered it. My tongue was firmly in cheek.

    ropelight (5cc6b1)

  28. Now is a reasonable time to ask who in the Orange County Sheriff’s office released such an outdated and unrepresentative picture of Zimmerman when it would have been so easy to get a current photograph.

    I recall reading that the initial investigator was the same officer Zimmerman was accused of assaulting several years prior when the old pic would have been taken.

    It’s possible an old grudge against Zimmerman may well have resulted in an improper campaign of widespread prejudice against him.

    ropelight (5cc6b1)

  29. Thanks, guys. See, I really haven’t had time to follow this, so I appreciate those insights.

    Patterico (feda6b)

  30. ropelight,

    I could tell you were kidding. I just couldn’t figure out what was behind it. Now I get it.

    Patterico (feda6b)

  31. Looks like a cut to me.
    Which makes me wonder if it’s self inflicted to boost his story.
    Comment by scrubone — 4/21/2012 @ 4:05 am

    – It’s like that scene in “Dirty Harry”, right? Except for he didn’t have time to hire somoene to beat him up, so he punched himself in the face, breaking his own nose . . . right?

    Icy (ad8dd3)

  32. Zimmerman will be convicted. Because it is his burden to show the shooting was justified. And I don’t think he has a lawyer who can do that.

    One possible out, because of all this publicity, some jury members might just vote “f*** you”. Hung juries. But the government has unlimited resources. Retrial(s).

    nk (875f57)

  33. No, it’s the states burden to prove he committed second degree murder.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  34. The standard is knowingly and intentionally without justification he took the life of another human being. The justification is his problem.

    nk (875f57)

  35. – It’s like that scene in “Dirty Harry”, right? Except for he didn’t have time to hire somoene to beat him up, so he punched himself in the face, breaking his own nose . . . right?

    Comment by Icy — 4/21/2012 @ 12:20 pm

    I know you’re being sarcastic, but I wonder if that’s even possible to do that? I do martial arts, and I don’t think I could, but maybe someone with some sort of medical background could weigh in?

    Dianna (f12db5)

  36. Stand your ground isn’t an affirmative defense.

    They have to show he was doing something illegal, or had no right to be where he was and that he wasn’t attacked.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  37. If it’s legal to follow Trayvon (and it was) unless there is MORE – fighting words, threatening actions beyond looking to see which way he went- and they can’t show any evidence he was chasing Trayvon or threatening him directly, and they can’t show Trayvon didn’t jump him or throw the first punch, and they can’t show that Zimmerman wasn’t attacked (and there is evidence he was knocked down, beneath Travyvon, and had injuries consistent with this kind of attack) then I don’t see how this case can go forward.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  38. NK – I’m not sure why stand your ground is NOT applicable when the state can’t show Zimmerman attacked and there is evidence Trayvon attacked him.

    And it is NOT an affirmative defense like plain old self defense

    SarahW (b0e533)

  39. And isn’t the burden of proof way lower for an affirmative defense like self-defense, anyway?

    I don’t know what the law is in florida – but it wouldn’t be “beyond a reasonable doubt” – just preponderance of the evidence in VA.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  40. Or just “some evidence”, in Illinois, but that only entitles you to a jury instruction. It’s still up to you to push the prosecution’s case back.

    nk (875f57)

  41. nk,

    I could see how a jury might convict Zimmerman of manslaughter, especially if he doesn’t testify, but what evidence could the prosecution offer that meets the “depraved mind without regard to human life” requirement of 2nd degree murder?

    All I can think of are Zimmerman’s statements on the 911 call that “These assholes always get away” and “F***ing punks,” but is that really evidence demonstrating a depraved mind without regard to human life?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  42. Anyone that can overcome the pull-your-punch reflex is capable of hitting themselves at the right angle and with enough force to break their own nose. Anyone capable of lying on their back and slamming the back of their head against the concrete is equally capable of rolling into their stomach and slamming their face nose-first into the same concrete.

    And anyone that thinks Zimmerman actually did something like this — with several witnesses either watching from their windows or approaching the scene on foot — has a much larger logical conundrum on their hands.

    Icy (ad8dd3)

  43. Here’s what Jeralyn Merrit says :

    At trial, the defendant can still argue both self-defense and stand your ground immunity — he only has to establish some evidence of his theory, which can be just his own testimony, that he acted in self-defense.

    The prosecution must prove his guilt at the jury trial beyond a reasonable doubt. Which means, if the defendant raises self-defense or stand your ground at trial and gets the jury instruction, the state, which has the burden of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, must disprove self-defense. If the jury has a doubt, the defendant must be acquitted.

    That when it gets to trial – she is talking about the whole picture here and what happens when stand your ground or self defence is invoked

    http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/4/12/194725/132

    SarahW (b0e533)

  44. Don’t get me wrong. I think Zimmerman did the right thing. But burden-shifting goes on all the time. The prosecution does not need to address justification in its case in chief.

    BTW, did you know that cross-examination is not evidence?

    nk (875f57)

  45. Thanks, Icy.

    For the record, yes, it’s probably possible to break one’s own nose, physically, but I’m having trouble with someone actually doing it!

    Dianna (f12db5)

  46. This Florida lawyers’ website agrees with SarahW that the Stand Your Ground law “provides a true immunity and not merely an affirmative defense.” However, the procedure for a defendant to claim immunity is not clear. Some Florida courts have held it should be asserted in a pretrial evidentiary proceeding, and I believe the burden is on the defendant to prevail in that claim.

    Thus, if Zimmerman wants to claim immunity under Stand Your Ground, he may have to testify in a pretrial immunity hearing and thereby give the prosecution a preview of his case. That will be a hard decision for the defense.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  47. I think a claim of immunity under Stand Your Ground is different than a self defense claim at trial, although obviously in this case the facts proving each are the same.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  48. Jeralyn wrote that even when he gets to trial, he can still bring forward a claim of stand your ground, OR plain old self defense – and if he brings up the defense, the state actually has to disprove it. Any reasonable doubt on the point goes to Z’s favor.

    That’s what she says…. I put a link to the longer explanation she wrote.

    http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/4/12/194725/132

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  49. The prosecution’s own affidavit is Zimmerman’s ticket to freedom.

    While INAL, the way I read it, it’s so flawed on the facts and so fatally compromised by internal contradiction and unsupported assertion that in the absence of blatant judicial misconduct there’s no way it doesn’t get tossed with prejudice.

    ropelight (5cc6b1)

  50. DRJ, the internet ate my last comment. The prosecution has a duty to disclose exculpatory evidence as discovery but no duty to present it in their case in chief. All they need to show is that the defendant shot a gun at the deceased causing his death. The justification is up to the defendant, whether accident, insanity, or self-defense.

    nk (875f57)

  51. Yes, SarahW, the burden of proof is always on the state, and under any standard it has to push back against self-defense, insanity, accident, or stand your ground, to a verdict of guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

    nk (875f57)

  52. SarahW,

    I think it depends on how the appellate court has ruled a defendant can assert a Stand Your Ground claim. Wiki says Seminole County — in which I think Zimmerman’s case is pending — is part of Florida’s Fifth District Court of Appeals. The criminal lawyer’s website I linked above (here) indicates there is no specific state-wide procedure for a defendant to raise a Stand Your Ground immunity claim.

    The opinion Jeralyn Merritt links is from Miami, which is in a different appellate jurisdiction than Seminole County. Bottom line: While the substantive Stand Your Ground law is the same throughout the state of Florida, the process of asserting it is not.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  53. nk:

    All they need to show is that the defendant shot a gun at the deceased causing his death.

    Doesn’t the prosecution have to prove more than just the victim’s death to prove 2nd degree murder?

    Florida’s jury instructions (which are based on the Florida statute) spell out three elements that prosecutors must prove to establish second degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt:
    – The victim is deceased,

    – The victim’s death was caused by the defendant’s criminal act, and

    – There was an unlawful killing of the victim “by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.”

    The last element — an “imminently dangerous” act that shows a “depraved mind” — is further defined by Florida’s jury instructions. Three elements must be present:

    – A “person of ordinary judgment” would know the act, or series of acts, “is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another”;

    – The act is “done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent”; and

    – The act is “of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.”

    Note that prosecutors do not have to prove the defendant intended to cause death, Florida’s jury instructions state.

    I’m not seeing 2nd degree murder here.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  54. I’m not an expert on Florida law but here in California there is no duty to retreat and the prosecution has the burden of showing a killing was unlawful which includes the burden to prove it was not done in self defense. This sounds like what people are calling “stand your ground” but the immunity business people are discussing in Florida law sounds different. I don’t know because (again) I don’t know Florida law.

    Patterico (18220a)

  55. Yeah, that’s why I mentioned the reflex to pull your punch, Dianna. A person needs to be really committed in order to do something like that to themselves. Anyway, short of someone on an MSNBC/Sharpton worship site, I don’t see anyone seriously alleging that Z’s injuries were self-inflicted for the purpose of supporting his claim of innocence. This isn’t like those spousal murder cases where the perpetrator has time (NO witnesses around) to inflict non-life threatening injuries to himself in order to portray himself as just another victim. This was out in the open, with witnesses. The prosecution, I predict, will NOT advance the theory that Z’s wounds were self-inflicted.

    Icy (ad8dd3)

  56. The prosecution, I predict, will NOT advance the theory that Z’s wounds were self-inflicted.

    Comment by Icy — 4/21/2012 @ 1:24 pm

    It would be one of those, “I didn’t just hear that, did I?” moments.

    Dianna (f12db5)

  57. You know, some comment has been made regarding the size difference between the two — Martin was taller, with much more reach, but weighed far less.

    The claim is that there’s no way someone with that much less weight gets someone larger than they are to the ground. As someone who has been in his share of fights (hey, someone has to stand up to the bullies), I can say that, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that can happen. It doesn’t happen if Zimmerman starts the fight… but, given his extra reach, and surprise, there’s literally no question that Martin could have
    a) sucker punched z,
    b) stunned z as a result, which would easily have put him on the ground
    c) jumped him while on the ground, pushing him onto his back, and started wailing away at him.

    I’ve had someone else my own age in my teens do all three of the above to me in succession.

    And when I was 16, I sucker punched someone attempting to force a fight, figuring there was going to be a fight no matter what I did, so I might as well get it over with. One pop, he was down on his hands and knees. I was surpriised, and stood there for a moment — My next impulse was to go in for the kill but a friend pulled me away and so there weren’t any further complications. I saw the guy about a week later still sporting a pretty good shiner. Never gave me crap again after that, though.

    So yeah, someone who is 16 or 17 can certainly swing, and land, a punch hard enough to stun and opponent and get the upper hand. And that makes far more sense than the idea that Z started the fight and then subsequently lost it, given his weight advantage.

    People seem to forget that Martin shows every sign of having come back to the situation himself, as suggested by comments from his gf who was on the phone with him. He had a choice, there, too, to go home and wait for the police or other. He chose to go forward into this altercation at least as much as Zimmerman did.

    IGotBupkis, Legally Defined Cyberbully in All 57 States (8e2a3d)

  58. Gilbreath also said Zimmerman’s claim that Martin was slamming his head against the sidewalk just before he shot the teenager was “not consistent with the evidence we found,” but then turned around and said “The injuries are consistent with trauma to the back of his head…he had 2 lacerations on the back of his head.”

    vatar (ed75b5)

  59. You know, some comment has been made regarding the size difference between the two — Martin was taller, with much more reach, but weighed far less.

    I thought I’d read in a couple of different places that Zimmerman weighed 170 and Martin weighed 160…? (If so, the orange jumpsuit photo was even more misleading when you take Zimmerman’s weight loss since 2005 into acct.)

    no one you know (498806)

  60. “Anyone that can overcome the pull-your-punch reflex is capable of hitting themselves at the right angle and with enough force to break their own nose. Anyone capable of lying on their back and slamming the back of their head against the concrete is equally capable of rolling into their stomach and slamming their face nose-first into the same concrete.”

    Icy – It is obvious to me that the services of forensic audio expert Inspector Sammy Clouseau are required STAT!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  61. vatar,

    I wondered about that, too. My guess is the investigators are going to say there was no evidence of blood on the concrete and/or no evidence Martin caused Zimmerman’s lacerations.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  62. This is so much fun to watch. No one wins here.
    Judge Jessie, the first judge in rotation, mentions in court that “I may have a conflict” that the attorneys should be aware of, (if you ask, I’ll get out of here). Defense counsel, who no doubt will be appearing before her again some day files motion that maybe she should step aside. Off she goes.
    I can’t blame her. The case offered up by the State, which the local prosecuter did not care to bring to a grand jury, is so weak that Zimmerman is going to walk, either by not guilty or dismissal.
    The State of Florida had to come up with something. “Outside pressure not being a factor” my rosey red rear. Once Zimmerman ws arrested, everyone had to go home, including good old Al.

    Cheshirecat (a1fcca)

  63. I think it’s stupider that that, Daley. I think they are going to say he was eventually on the grass, so he wasn’t having his head pounded at the time o’ the shooting.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  64. Vatar@59
    the two statements are actually easy to reconcile, if Gilbreath thinks something else happened between the head slamming and Zimmerman using his gun.

    Having no access to the evidence, I am not saying that is what Gilbreath was thinking. I’m simply pointing out the possibility.

    jbs (7bca55)

  65. The gang at the White House are opening up $300 bottles of wine on this one. Florida, the Democrats and the White House want this to drag out until after the election. Florida really dosen’t want to see a race war between the two large minorities, which could happen.

    If Zimmerman forces a speedy trial and is released before the election, then Holder slaps a civil rights charge on Zimmerman and Obama cements his supporters behind him in the name of “justice.” He may lose Florida, but I am not sure he could win it now anyway.

    Cheshirecat (a1fcca)

  66. Consider the opinion of Alan Dershowitz at Breitbart’s news site, 4/20/12.

    DERSHOWITZ BLASTS ZIMMERMAN’S PROSECUTOR: ‘NOT ONLY IMMORAL, BUT STUPID’

    …The arrest affidavit did not mention the photograph, or the bleeding, gashes, and bruises on Zimmermans’ head. Professor Alan Dershowitz of Harvard Law School stated upon release of the arrest affidavit that it was “so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge … everything in the affidavit is completely consistent with a defense of self-defense.”

    After the release of the photo, however, Dershowitz went much further, telling Breitbart News that if the prosecutors did have the photo and didn’t mention it in the affidavit, that would constitute a “grave ethical violation,” since affidavits are supposed to contain “all relevant information.”

    Dershowitz continued, “An affidavit that willfully misstates undisputed evidence known to the prosecution is not only unethical but borders on perjury because an affiant swears to tell not only the truth, but the whole truth, and suppressing an important part of the whole truth is a lie.”…

    ropelight (5cc6b1)

  67. For the record, yes, it’s probably possible to break one’s own nose, physically, but I’m having trouble with someone actually doing it!

    Actually, I think it would be moderately straightforward — you just have to smash your face into a wall or solid surface with a quick, very hard jerk, not giving yourself time to pull it much. Kind of like jumping off a ledge to commit suicide. The tricky part is steeling yourself up to make that first step. Once you’ve done it, the rest follows naturally.

    But making the quick decision, “Hey, no one’s looking, I need to assert self-defense, so I’d better whack my head against the concrete sidewalk!!” requires an awfully perceptive degree of forethought, worth of Machiavelli himself, as well as fortuitous timing that no one sees it and reports that fact.

    IGotBupkis, Legally Defined Cyberbully in All 57 States (8e2a3d)

  68. I thought I’d read in a couple of different places that Zimmerman weighed 170 and Martin weighed 160…?

    The quotes I’d seen gave Martin 3 inches on Z, and Z about 40-50 pounds on M. That may well have changed as I have no recollection, offhand, as to the source of those quotes or its reliability.

    If Z didn’t have a good 30-odd pounds on M then it’s clear that M could have beaten him, esp. if M was aggressive and took the first shot, giving him surprise.

    IGotBupkis, Legally Defined Cyberbully in All 57 States (8e2a3d)

  69. Zimmerman’s and Martin’s size and weight have been the subject of speculation from the beginning. I think Tom Maguire did a good job summing up the various opinions here (including the police report [no longer available online] that said Martin was 6′ and 160 pounds, while Zimmerman was described as 5’9″ with no weight listed).

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  70. Of course, the police report numbers are probably close but still estimates. Martin’s autopsy will tell us his exact height and weight.

    On a related topic, here’s something I didn’t know: The lead investigator of the Sanford Police Department did not recommend filing charges against Zimmerman.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  71. I’m not seeing 2nd degree murder here.

    Comment by DRJ — 4/21/2012 @ 1:22 pm

    Me neither. We’re on the same page. I think we’re getting crossed on ultimate burden of proof which in every sense is the prosecution’s, versus on bringing forward evidence of justification which is not. Whether it’s some evidence or preponderance, the defense will need to do some work, enough to push back the prosecution’s case to reasonable doubt.

    On mens rea, it is permissibly inferred from conduct, and pointing a gun at somebody and pulling the trigger can be inferred to be depraved state of mind, intent, or knowledge. And then excuse or justification kicks in.

    nk (875f57)

  72. ____________________________________________

    Consider the opinion of Alan Dershowitz at Breitbart’s news site, 4/20/12.

    It’s always a relief when a person who I assume is going to be dogmatic about any subject from A to Z instead displays a bit of objective sentiment on occasion.

    By contrast, there’s a person I’ve known over the past several months who’s very outgoing and friendly. We greet each other in a neighborly, sociable manner. He has made no hesitance to mention to me and others his deep regard for religious faith and spirituality. Other than that, he and I have never gotten into discussions that go beyond light, easy banter. However, he seemed down-to-earth, and his Christian faith made me optimistic that his political bent wouldn’t be predictable. BTW, he’s black.

    I overheard him the other day talking to two other people, saying in an ominous tone about the “Bush legacy” and expressing hope that Obama would remain in office. Very disappointing.

    I’m aware that 90-plus percent of black America is of the left, but I was hoping the person in question was a segment of the tiny 10 percent that is either centrist to conservative. In this instance, no such luck.

    The story of Zimmerman and Martin on the surface is touted as a racial issue. But it’s the pathetic, corrosive leftism exhibited by too many of those at the heart of the matter that is what’s most alarming and even frightening.

    Intractable and destructive (and self-destructive) liberalism makes me realize that people who are practical and sensible — and located on the inside looking out — will have no choice but to vote not on election day but with their feet and the moving van. That’s a sad reality that I now understand more fully today than I did in the past.

    Mark (411533)

  73. Comment by Patterico — 4/21/2012 @ 1:22 pm

    I don’t know if it can rightly be called a duty to retreat, but in Illiois, if the initial aggressor wants to claim self-defense, he must show that he had broken off the conflict and no longer posed a danger to the “victim”.

    nk (875f57)

  74. I don’t think much of this applies, here. I don’t see Zimmerman doing anything more than surveilancing Martin. It was Martin who got a wild hair and decided to confront Zimmerman, with fists.

    Now, I do fault Zimmerman for biting off more than he could chew. Mall ninja. That gun made him no policeman. But I don’t think that he did enough to deserve having his brains bashed out on a concrete sidewalk and he did have a right to use his gun to prevent it.

    nk (875f57)

  75. Let’s see now, the prosecution’s so-called lead investigator admitted under oath that (among other things) he doesn’t know who started the fight, and has no evidence that Zimmerman pursued Martin rather than walking back to his own car.

    Why didn’t Martin just run to the apartment he had come from? He would then have been perfectly safe.

    It looks like Martin doubled back and jumped Zimmerman who was heading to his car. Starting with a sucker punch, the 6-2 high school football player would have no trouble putting Zimmerman on the ground and in fear for his life.

    DN (322684)

  76. I agre, DN. There’s no case, here.

    George, get yourself one good lawyer.

    nk (875f57)

  77. nk,

    I googled the burden of proof for a Florida “Stand Your Ground” immunity hearing and found that Ann Althouse has already discussed it (and I think she’s right):

    That is, there is a pretrial motion to be made, with a judge making the decision about the evidence and a preponderance burden of proof on the defendant. The defendant can win at that point or be sent on to trial, where the prosecution will have the burden, even the burden to disprove self-defense, and the standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt, much higher than what the defendant would have had to prove to avoid the trial.

    So, to put it somewhat crudely — and please correct me if I’m wrong — assume, hypothetically, that any factfinder will decide there’s only, at most, an equal chance that it was self-defense, but there’s some reasonable likelihood. The judge as factfinder at the immunity motion phase must deny the motion, but the jury as factfinder after the trial phase must acquit.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  78. If Althouse’s analysis is correct (and I think it is, although I’m still not sure a Seminole County court would handle an immunity claim as a pretrial motion), then Zimmerman takes a big risk in filing a pretrial “Stand Your Ground” immunity motion. Not only would it reveal the defense’s testimony and evidence before trial, but it would run the risk that the public will believe his self defense claim “lost” before the judge.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  79. Z. has done better than many trained officers… Actual self defense (i.e., not a shooting where the officer mistook a cell phone for a gun or some other furtive move) and one bullet one hit on one suspect (enough reports of a hail of gunfire that hits innocent bystanders and, often, fails to hit the suspect).

    About the only thing that would have defused the situation, appears to be, if Z. was open carry instead of concealed carry (T. would probably not have closed/sucker punched if he saw the firearm).

    [based on what I have read to date]

    BfC (fd87e7)

  80. Foot meet bullet, one of two parts

    Alex (31c567)

  81. In our world of photoshopping and ever changing computer software, does anyone know of any cases to date where validation of a digital image has become an issue?

    Somebody mentioned there was data (time stamp, etc) associated with this photo. Does anybody know how feasible it is to either strip such associated data, or alter it?

    I’m not saying anything really fancy was done here, it seems it was enough mischief originally to publish photos hours after the incident after he had medical attention. Seems like a good part of a novel if not reality yet, “spy vs spy” on manipulating digitial images, or making it look like a digital image was tampered with to put it into question.

    MD in Philly (28be5f)

  82. At his blog, Bob Owens closely examines the alleged sequence of events immediately prior to the shooting. A key quote:

    At 2:22, without any prompting other than the aforementioned noises and breathing, the dispatcher asks “Are you following him?” to which Zimmerman responds, “Yeah.”

    At 2:26, the dispatcher says, “Okay, we don’t need you to do that,” to which Zimmerman responds, “Okay.”

    Zimmerman proceeds to give the dispatcher his name. Then he says, “He ran.”

    Zimmerman can still be heard breathing into the phone until about 2:39, at which point the heavy breathing stops entirely, a mere 13 seconds after the dispatcher asked him to stop following. A very calm and collected Zimmerman then proceeds to give the dispatcher his own information, directions and a description of his location for another 1 minute and 33 seconds.

    It appears at that point Zimmerman was no longer following Martin and in fact had lost sight of him.

    navyvet (f5da59)

  83. The most comprehensive site on Zimmerman/Martin is called the conservative treehouse. There is so much information to read. The site has even identified who “Dee Dee” (the supposed GF that was on the phone with Trayvon before the shooting, and is the only witness the prosecution has). Turns out that she is really is not what the MSM is telling you. Here is a link.
    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/04/17/update-9-trayvon-martin-shooting-case-latest-developments/

    Ck (136be8)

  84. If it’s legal to follow Trayvon (and it was) unless there is MORE –
    Comment by SarahW — 4/21/2012 @ 12:40 pm

    As a concealed Carry holder, I don’t think Zimmerman had that right while he was carrying.
    According to Florida’s Concealed Carry Law
    http://www.tinyurl.com/floridacc
    3. The law permits you to carry a concealed weapon for self-defense. Carrying a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman or a “good samaritan.”

    liontooth (c33c1e)

  85. On the other hand, from Ck’s link:

    In fact, the local homeowners’ association reports that George Zimmerman actually caught one thief and aided in the apprehension of other criminals. The Miami Herald wrote about this on March 17th. None of the thousands of articles and cable news segments that came after, thought this was important.

    Sounds like Z. was effective…

    BfC (fd87e7)

  86. Sounds like Z. was effective…
    Comment by BfC — 4/21/2012 @ 11:51 pm

    Or evidence of him being a free-lance policeman? Checked out Ck’s link. It really shows how all these grateful neighbors had his back (NOT!) after he had their’s.

    liontooth (c33c1e)

  87. Re: liontooth, I would be willing to bet that the neighbors are afraid to come out for Zimmerman due to the NBPP, media, and the potential mobs. I would be fearful myself.

    Ck (136be8)

  88. Ck’s link @ 4/21/2012 @ 9:02 pm is a must read.

    I can’t vouch for every word as gospel truth, but anyone, including me, who commented on the TraMar case without being familiar with the linked information was not only spouting off prematurely but also from a woefully uninformed position.

    If that sounds presumptuous or excessively harsh, click on Ck’s link before you make up your mind.

    ropelight (68e086)

  89. Not to approve of killing if not justified in self-defense, but I would rather have neighbors who are “free-lance policemen” than “free-lance burglars and muggers”.

    Put up signs:
    “This neighborhood friendly to free-lance policemen, act suspicious at your own risk.”
    vs.
    “This neighborhood defended by police in uniform only, feel free to be a criminal at any given opportunity.”

    I’m not sure when common sense joined the endangered list. Of course I’m using a bit of hyperbole in my point, but if all of the energy spent around this case was channelled into simply getting the facts of the matter straight and using the excess energy on more constructive things the world would be a happier place.

    MD in Philly (28be5f)

  90. I took ropelight’s advice and looked at the link. I did not read 100% of it thoroughly, but there certainly is a lot of material there, though not addressing any rebuttals of info.

    Interesting that there is supposed physical evidence that there was a struggle over the gun. Though I could see that being argued both ways, Z shot out of fear it would be taken from him and used against him, vs. Z had pulled the gun on M, and out of fear and panic M grabbed the gun in an attempt to protect himself. Not sure if analysis of the physical evidence would be able to give cred to one version over the other.

    MD in Philly (28be5f)

  91. 86: yeah BfC, he was effective. Effective at bankrupting 200 home owners.

    Alex (31c567)

  92. Alex, you keep saying that… But, you apparently do not understand what you are writing.

    Z. was on a shopping trip. The police even have his phone where he texted (his wife?) saying such.

    Z. was in no way acting on behalf of the HOA at the time. In fact the Watch Groups (as I have read) are organized by local law enforcement, not by neighborhoods…

    Yes, anyone can sue for any reason–And I would prefer loser pays–But that is the world in which we live.

    BfC (fd87e7)

  93. MDnP, since Zimmerman’s hand gun provided the ability to strike safely from a distance well beyond TraMar’s ability to respond with physical force, it would have been foolish for Zimmerman to approach within arm’s reach of TraMar.

    A trained Neighborhood Watch Captain would know that, and he’d know to keep his distance while keeping a suspicious person in sight as he waited for the police to arrive.

    Zimmerman has no incentive to close with TraMar.

    ropelight (68e086)

  94. 93: I keep saying it cause it’s true. The HOA is going to be sued big time. And with that hanging over the head of every home how much you think you can sell one of those houses for? Nothing? Or maybe zero?

    Alex (31c567)

  95. Sure–T. parents’ can sue–But they will probably not win. And the lawyers will make out like bandits.

    BfC (fd87e7)

  96. 86: yeah BfC, he was effective. Effective at bankrupting 200 home owners.

    Comment by Alex — 4/22/2012 @ 10:20 am

    You should be able to demonstrate 200 bankruptcies. There is an objective measure of the accuracy of your assertion.

    JD (9e6048)

  97. They’ll sue, and they very well may win. And until that’s settled, whose gonna buy a house there? No one.

    Alex (31c567)

  98. Your metric does not equal bankruptcy.

    JD (9e6048)

  99. Am I in moderation?

    Random (fba0b1)

  100. “The HOA is going to be sued big time.”

    Alex – What kind of insurance coverage does the HOA have and what kind of coverage does a typical homeowner’s policy provide for litigation?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  101. 99: sorry, 200 people whose homes are now effectively worth zero thanks to Zimmerman. I was being brief earlier, but it is not as accurate. Ok now JD? :-)

    Alex (31c567)

  102. 100: in this case it looks like none. Big discussion in the real estate world about this now. Your typical hoa’s policies would not cover this.

    Alex (31c567)

  103. “And the lawyers will make out like bandits.”

    BfC – Ben Crump is all about the Benjamins. He doesn’t do this out of the goodness of his heart.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  104. I agree that insurance agents are discussing the Zimmerman case, but I don’t agree the homes are worthless as a result.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  105. “100: in this case it looks like none. Big discussion in the real estate world about this now. Your typical hoa’s policies would not cover this.”

    Alex – Really? Isn’t there a swimming pool in the development? Who maintains the swimming pool? Isn’t there a liability insurance policy for the pool operations? Have you ever read a homeowner’s or umbrella insurance policy?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  106. 104: would you buy one?

    Alex (31c567)

  107. 105: “Really?” yes, absolutely. I used to be in real estate, dealt with hoas and insurance co’s

    Alex (31c567)

  108. “I don’t agree the homes are worthless as a result.”

    DRJ – I am with you there.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  109. “105: “Really?” yes, absolutely. I used to be in real estate, dealt with hoas and insurance co’s”

    Alex – Nonresponsive.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  110. No, he has not, Daleyrocks. This person equates not being able to sell a house with not being able to pay one’s bills.

    JD (9e6048)

  111. Read the link DRJ posted.

    Just facts guys , just facts. As I asked an no one answered, would you buy a house in that HOA now?

    Alex (31c567)

  112. “Read the link DRJ posted.”

    Alex – I have. Do you understand the concept of “Duty to defend?” It sounds like you do not. An insurance company can contest coverage of an event, but until its coverage liability is determined, it still have a duty to defend its policyholder(s). If you have dealt with insurance companies, you should know these things.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  113. Alex,

    I agree the market value of these homes has almost certainly been depressed by this potential liability, but at this point that’s primarily due to uncertainty. We need to know more about the homeowners’ and HOA’s insurance coverage, whether Zimmerman was acting as an agent of the HOA (and, if so, how the HOA authorized and trained him), the Florida laws regarding tort liability in situations like this, and especially the facts regarding Martin’s and Zimmerman’s actions on that night. Without more information, I can’t agree the homes are worthless.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  114. I have, and believe me the insurance co is looking how to abandon this HOA ASAP! But anyhow, prob doesn’t matter as I am fairly sure the ins doesn’t cover this.

    Anyway, until it’s settled, whose gonna buy a house there? You? And the case could take years. And in the end it could (could!) result in large liability for every home owner.

    It’s real bad, bottom line

    Alex (31c567)

  115. 113: a product is worth what people will pay.

    Alex (31c567)

  116. DRJ – Please correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe that legal judgements take precedence over existing first liens (mortgages) on properties. I just find Alex’s assumptions unfounded at this point.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  117. “But anyhow, prob doesn’t matter as I am fairly sure the ins doesn’t cover this.”

    Alex – Are you a lawyer?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  118. 116: exactly wrong. In fla house can be liened to pay hoa liabilities. People may literally have their homes sold to pay for Zimmerman. Nice!

    Alex (31c567)

  119. “I have, and believe me the insurance co is looking how to abandon this HOA ASAP!”

    Alex – It’s too late, a triggering event has already occurred. Another theory for you to consider is that the insurance industry has written policies for HOA’s across the country and if they don’t aggressively defend this claim, they potentially open themselves up to specious claims all over the country.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  120. daley,

    I don’t know what priority HOA’s liens have vs mortgage liens in Florida, or any liens for that matter.

    Alex,

    Of course potential and actual homeowners don’t want any part of this, but I submit the main reason for that feeling is uncertainty about costs and whether there will be liability/damages.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  121. Y. The ins might defend, might no cover, etc unknown at this point. But my best speculation is the ins won’t cover this. Then their is the policy max if they do. I doubt that will cover the potential judgement.

    Alex (31c567)

  122. Daleyrocks – that is just silly talk.

    JD (9e6048)

  123. Their homeowner’s insurance will cover it. Both defense and indemnity. Likely, many of them have umbrellas. Collectively, they’ll have a big enough defense fund. And who says they don’t have insurance as a homeowners association, incorporated or unincorporated. Alex, you keep making up nonsense.

    nk (875f57)

  124. 123: just facts.

    Alex (31c567)

  125. 120: yes. I agree

    Alex (31c567)

  126. I keep saying it cause it’s true. The HOA is going to be sued big time. And with that hanging over the head of every home how much you think you can sell one of those houses for? Nothing? Or maybe zero?

    – What is this silly person going on about? Here, let’s look for some more zeroes, shall we?
    Possibility that the HOA operated the neighborhood watch, and had rules governing said watch in its by-laws: ZERO
    Odds of a lawsuit against the HOA being successful: ZERO
    Chances of nobody in the neighborhood being able to sell their house: ZERO

    Icy (b13adf)

  127. And, and, and, this is Florida, Florida, Florida!!! Where the homestead exemption from judgments is $25 million!!! Which is why OJ moved there. Stop talking out your ass, Alex.

    nk (875f57)

  128. 126: a lawyer and a psychic!

    Alex (31c567)

  129. 127; lol. Really? And how much are these houses worth?

    Alex (31c567)

  130. I am neither, but I do know that one cannot successfully sue the HOA for failing to control the neighborhood watch when the HOA was NOT in charge of the neighborhood watch.

    Icy (b13adf)

  131. 130: really? You “know” that? Lol. That’s nice that you know something that isn’t true. Good for you!

    Alex (31c567)

  132. Icy – Alex likes to make stuff up, and ignore that which does not conform to its narrative.

    JD (9e6048)

  133. show me where they would be liable;

    http://www.ehow.com/how_6303866_sue-homeowners-association.html

    narciso (8d0f34)

  134. 132; project much? Lol

    Alex (31c567)

  135. Read link at 104, just for a start

    Alex (31c567)

  136. Nk – would you be so kind so as to explain the homestead exemption to the gibbering gibbon?

    JD (9e6048)

  137. 911? Hi it’s me George. Hi. Um. I’m having a problem with ouch someone ouch slamming my head ouch into the pavement.

    Yes I told him to please stop.

    Why yes I do have a gun.

    brb.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  138. great tip!

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  139. Only for you, JD. I have lost all patience with him.

    Alex, under Florida law, your property, which is considered your homestead, and it is a pretty broad definition, is exempt from levy for a judgment and just about evey other debt that you have not signed for, up to $25 million. That means your property is evaluated. You get to keep the first $25 million. The over that is subject to collection.

    nk (875f57)

  140. 136: yes, please explain to me. Use details, and specifics. Take your time, I’ll wait

    Alex (31c567)

  141. Just put Alex on ignore, guys, until Stashiu puts him in the spam filter.

    nk (875f57)

  142. Just put Alex on ignore, guys, until Stashiu puts him in the spam filter.

    nk (875f57)

  143. Hello, bankruptcy attorney. I am having a hard time selling my condo. I can pay my bills, pay my mortgage, just can’t sell. What should I do? File bankruptcy, of course.

    JD (318f81)

  144. Alex, how about you just keep us apprised on the progress of this lawsuit that hasn’t even been filed; m’kay?

    Icy (b13adf)

  145. 139: Wikipedia is ur friend. Also look up 2005 bankruptcy law.

    Exceptions for Certain Creditors

    Four types of creditors can still force the sale of a homestead to collect debts owed to them. These are:

    The State of Florida and its counties or municipalities, to collect past due property taxes;
    Parties to whom the property was specifically pledged as credit for a mortgage;
    Mechanics who are owed money for work performed in repairing or improving the property.
    Any creditor with a lien that pre-dates the establishment of homestead. This usually includes condominium and mandatory homeowner association liens, depending on the language and age of the covenants.

    Alex (31c567)

  146. Dummerer than a sack of Andrews, it is.

    JD (318f81)

  147. Thanks for the law lesson, asshole. Where’s the exception for wrongful death judgment? Asshole.

    And Whackoffpedia is where you’d get your delusion from.

    nk (875f57)

  148. you can’t sue an HOA for something that isn’t their responsibility.

    thus the HOA can’t possibly be liable for the independent actions of a resident, unless said resident was acting in an official capacity for the HOA.

    res ipsa loquitur.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  149. nk makes his point
    we must be ever mindful
    of teh Asshole Clause

    Colonel Haiku (f4b1c2)

  150. Did someone declare bankruptcy?

    JD (318f81)

  151. See comment #101 JD

    Alex (31c567)

  152. NK, I’ll take your repeated violation of the profane language clause as tacit admission from you that I am correct. Thank you.

    Alex (31c567)

  153. 149: the hoa can, and probably will, be sued.

    Alex (31c567)

  154. Alex, please cite where the HOA, within the purview of its by-laws establishes and/or controls the neighborhood watch in Z’s community.

    Icy (b13adf)

  155. Take your d*** up your a** with KY Jelly, too.

    nk (875f57)

  156. No one has denied that a lawsuit may be filed. What has NOT been shown is ANY proof that such a lawsuit will be successful.

    Icy (b13adf)

  157. don’t worry Sharpton
    alex will show up at next
    Conclave of Minstrels

    Colonel Haiku (f4b1c2)

  158. Icy: see comment 146 to start

    Alex (31c567)

  159. 158 what have I or these facts about the law and HOAs got to do with Sharpton? Silly…

    Alex (31c567)

  160. alex is to Teh Law as Sharpton is to Crown Heights

    Colonel Haiku (f4b1c2)

  161. 99: sorry, 200 people whose homes are now effectively worth zero thanks to Zimmerman. I was being brief earlier, but it is not as accurate. Ok now JD?

    Comment by Alex — 4/22/2012 @ 11:26 am

    You are an idiot. You already admitted that statement was wrong, and now you are referring back to it?

    JD (318f81)

  162. 161: doubling down on silly. Stay klassy my friend! :-)

    Ok really, let’s discuss facts and the issue at hand. Novel?

    Alex (31c567)

  163. 162. Yes.

    Are you really thick? I explained the comment. Jeeez….

    Alex (31c567)

  164. You have not demonstrated that 200 people will go bankrupt, or are now bankrupt as your originally claimed. Also, you have not done anything to demonstrate that their condos are now worthless. You are asserting, in a circular manner. It is tiresome, tedious, and about all you have got. Then, you tried quoting bankruptcy law, and when asked why that might be applicable, you referred back to a comment that began the circle of asshattery. You should have stuck with Criminalizing neighborhood watches or whatever nonsense you previously spewed.

    JD (318f81)

  165. 165: thick it is!

    I cleared up that I meant their houses were now effectively worthless, and that using the word bankruptcy was inaccurate. I did so immediately. The fact that you still harp on it reveals your tacit admission that I am correct. Thank you.

    Alex (31c567)

  166. Then you use comments about bankruptcy exemptions to refer back to it. You are a clown, and have been given way more respect than you ever deserved. Please continue your act. It is cute. Maybe call someone a Paulbot again. Just don’t be surprised when you are mocked.

    JD (318f81)

  167. who was it – Liontooth? said that it somehow becomes illegal to see where someone is going, when they run out of one’s sight, if one has a concealed carry permit.

    Concealed carry doesn’t restrict your right of movement in any place where it is legal to carry a concealed weapong. Anything that is legal to do when you aren’t armed, is legal to do when you are, so long as one is not in an area where weapons are specifically prohibited.

    If he were brandishing the weapon or using threat of it (Stop, I have a gun!) to gain compliance of Martin that would be different. That didn’t happen. The weapon didn’t appear until Trayvon doubled back and sucker punched Martin, knocking him down.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  168. 167: I give up, you can lead a horse to water.

    168: sarahw: you were there that night! You should write a book!!!

    Alex (31c567)

  169. Alex, Go use zillow.com and tell us what the estimated value loss is for the area… Best I can see is around a ~$1,400 loss ($400 loss on value vs $1,000 gain in surrounding area checking a couple addresses in the area)…

    Don’t know the area, but say:
    $1,400 * 200 units = $280,000 (call it $100,000 condo–but they look like they range from $100-$200k or so).

    Who knows–probably pretty close the costs and deductible for the HOA.

    BfC (fd87e7)

  170. BfC what would you pay for a house there?

    Zillow values mean nothing if there are no buyers. We’ve been over this.

    Alex (31c567)

  171. you can’t sue an HOA for something that isn’t their responsibility.

    thus the HOA can’t possibly be liable for the independent actions of a resident, unless said resident was acting in an official capacity for the HOA.

    Comment by redc1c4 — 4/22/2012 @ 1:10 pm

    Really excellent point, thank you very much.

    jk (69d0bb)

  172. Show of hands – who thinks I am being unfair to poor mistreated Alex? Who thinks Alex argues in good faith?

    JD (9e6048)

  173. 172: except, you know, it’s wrong :-)

    Alex (31c567)

  174. 173: I didn’t claim to be mistreated. I just claimed you are thick, as you seem eager to keep proving ;-)

    Alex (31c567)

  175. “Y. The ins might defend, might no cover, etc unknown at this point.”

    Alex – What’s your theory of liability for the HOA?

    Just facts please.

    I have seen no evidence that suggests Zimmerman was acting under color of authority for the HOA.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  176. “On mens rea, it is permissibly inferred from conduct, and pointing a gun at somebody and pulling the trigger can be inferred to be depraved state of mind, intent, or knowledge. And then excuse or justification kicks in.”

    - nk

    That’s my understanding as well. This isn’t really about “stand your ground” so much as it is about the proportionality of deadly force, which will depend on a jury’s assessment of the threat Martin posed to Zimmerman’s life and safety. Whether or not the “stand your ground” law is referenced, Zimmerman would have to prove the proportional necessity of his use of the gun.

    Leviticus (870be5)

  177. The most comprehensive site on Zimmerman/Martin is called the conservative treehouse. There is so much information to read. The site has even identified who “Dee Dee” (the supposed GF that was on the phone with Trayvon before the shooting, and is the only witness the prosecution has). Turns out that she is really is not what the MSM is telling you. Here is a link.
    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/04/17/update-9-trayvon-martin-shooting-case-latest-developments/

    Comment by Ck — 4/21/2012 @ 9:02 pm

    whoa, thank you. The following page is especially good (I included it because it contains links to two other informative posts.) http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/04/21/update-10-part-2-the-trayvon-martin-shooting-deedee-reveals-the-false-truths/

    And of course, much thanks to Patterico. Btw, until recently I was a bleeding heart liberal, but not anymore. Mainstream media is not to be trusted, they would probably lie about what day it is if they thought they could get away with it.

    jk (69d0bb)

  178. 176 see 146

    Alex (31c567)

  179. “Four types of creditors can still force the sale of a homestead to collect debts owed to them. These are:”

    Alex – None of the four types you list meet the criteria for a civil judgement in the Trayvon Martin incident. Thanks for playing.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  180. “176 see 146″

    Alex – Pull head out of butt.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  181. 180 see 146. And yes they do. Lol…… Give up dude, seriously

    Alex (31c567)

  182. Call it a $20-$40 million dollar development.

    I don’t see lawyers getting that much in a settlement.

    Regarding the insurance company–Say the HOA has a $20 million policy… The insurance may choose to settle for $1-2 million cash (no trial, no matter what HOA says) to avoid a potential $20 million judgment. Is not about right or wrong–just dollars and cents risk management decision.

    But since even your own links show a strong homesteading law for Florida–It is hard to see how a suit can pierce that.

    And, the Martins cannot go ahead of the mortgage company anyway–And it would not be difficult to imagine if 1/4 to ~1/2 of the condos are underwater at this point (not uncommon in some areas).

    It would seem that the HOA would be the only entity worth suing (short of the police department who set up the Watch Program)–And I wonder if they hold any property in the name of the HOA (maybe roads/tools?).

    Interesting question–But I don’t see the Martin’s owning the development anytime soon.

    BfC (fd87e7)

  183. Don’t see from your link how concealed carry even enters here… Zimmerman was on private property (gated community). Open or concealed carry is perfectly legal with or without a permit (in most states).

    -Bill

    BfC (fd87e7)

  184. “180 see 146. And yes they do. Lol…… Give up dude, seriously”

    Alex – Just like Obama, you’re out of your league. #146 has qualifiers out the wazoo while you claim FACTS. No sale.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  185. 183: yes, the hoa is the target. And the home owners have to pay for the hoa.

    Alex (31c567)

  186. BfC – It’s just more Asspulls From Alex.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  187. JD, daley….new person or the Usual Suspects? I mean, based on the style of the posts…. Apologies for my usual paranoia, but it just illustrates—old troll or new troll—Gresham’s Law for blogs.

    Simon Jester (57134c)

  188. “So much as it is about the proportionality of deadly force”

    Well, it is NOW, because that is all that is left.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  189. The homeowner’s association is simply not on the hook.

    Zimmerman was not acting as an agent of the homeowner’s association, but as an individual.

    The HOA might be the “target” but it’s one that can’t be hit.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  190. I live in SW Florida and talking about selling a condo here is mostly moot because they just isn’t a much of a market. Condos that went for $300,000 in my neck of the woods 4 years ago are going for $36,000 now, if they’re moving at all.

    The problem is that so many units have been abandoned because owners were upside down on their finances and Home Owner’s Association dues and fire insurance fees were increasingly falling on fewer and fewer unit owners that more and more owners were walking away rather than facing ever increasing costs with no relief on the horizon.

    There just isn’t any blood money on the table.

    ropelight (68e086)

  191. Obama’s Associated Press finds even more violent Jewish bigots what enjoy to commit the human rights violations on black people

    we have to be vigilant the Associated Press says

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  192. 190: nice theory. Wrong, but nice. Not sure what it is based on though.

    Alex (31c567)

  193. we hardly even have condos what go for 300K here in the city of angels, not that you’d wanna live in

    this is because we have very stringent laws against developing property

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  194. “values mean nothing if there are no buyers.”

    is there a forest
    if trees are not visible?
    but resist he much

    Colonel Haiku (c89bef)

  195. 195: silliness trifecta!

    Alex (31c567)

  196. #177: “the proportionality of deadly force”

    I’m not a lawyer, so there’s a sense in which it doesn’t matter what I think (since we are a society tyrranized by lawyers), but in terms of plain, practical common sense, if I am physically attacked, I am under no moral obligation to get the sh#t knocked out of me “to a certain extent” before I reply with what means I deem necessary for my safety. Nolo me tangere is the final word on this. There is also the question, as it were, of precedent: if I smile on my attacker politely, especially in a racial context, then it gives him (note pronoun — gadzooks! profiling!! Summon the Spanish Inquisition at once!!!) The distinct impression that such attacks will succeed on others in the future.

    As they say at Lake Baikal, That ain’t no way to run a railroad.

    d. in c. (17012e)

  197. Feet, there is no life East of Lincoln.

    ropelight (68e086)

  198. OMYGOD. Treyvon’s parents HIRED A PUBLICIST! Seriously, can you say money hungry?

    “Realizing he needed a lawyer who knew Sanford and Seminole County, Crump turned to Natalie Jackson, a former Navy intelligence officer who founded the Women’s Trial Group, which specializes in cases for women and children. Her mother lives in Sanford.

    Now Crump and Jackson needed a media strategy. On March 5, Jackson brought in Ryan Julison, a publicist who had worked with her on a number of high-profile cases. After speaking with Tracy Martin, Julison said he also took the job for free and went to work pitching the story to national media.”

    about halfway down the page, here. That’s why they trademarked Treyvon’s name. omg.

    jk (69d0bb)

  199. alex sells “crazy”
    guilt by association
    but no buyers found

    Colonel Haiku (c89bef)

  200. 200: trifecta not enough for ya huh? Lordy …

    Alex (31c567)

  201. alex will nag but
    his horse race analogy
    won’t win place or show

    Colonel Haiku (c89bef)

  202. life is even more hyper-controlled and oppressive west of lincoln though

    here there be facsisms

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  203. alex digs real deep
    but his cure for horse colic
    not fit for stable

    Colonel Haiku (c89bef)

  204. Lol, looney tunes…. But I guess the subject has been dropped …

    Alex (31c567)

  205. alex will soon learn
    he who is his own lawyer
    has fool for client

    Colonel Haiku (c89bef)

  206. Anyone notice Alex’s complete lack of argument, beyond assertion of nonsense?

    JD (9e6048)

  207. *fascisms* I mean

    they weren’t vigilant is what happened

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  208. 207: sorry, I was arguing facts, but got distracted by all the silly (and some angry) posts full of nonsense. I’ll get back to topic and facts. As a primer see post 146 above.

    Alex (31c567)

  209. Make your case why the HOA is liable.
    Make your case why the homestead exemption is not applicable.
    Make your case why Z did not act in self defense.
    In short, make your case. Your games are tiresome.

    JD (9e6048)

  210. 210: I have repeatedly made my case for the first 2 items. Read my posts above. As for the third item, I haven’t argued that. He may have acted in self defense, entirely plausible.

    Alex (31c567)

  211. No, you have not made your case. You have asserted them as being true. What is your theory of liability against the HOA? Why do you think legally the homestead exemption as outlined by nk, is not applicable. This see my prior comment is the silly game I referenced. Your prior comments have been weighed, measured, and found wanting.

    JD (9e6048)

  212. Comment by Alex — 4/22/2012 @ 3:26 pm

    Zimmerman was not acting as an agent of the homeowners association. His acts are not theirs. He wasn’t on a “watch” – he was on an errand.

    The HOA did not sponsor, direct, or encourage an y acts of Zimmerman’s, lawful or unlawful.

    The HOA isn’t responsible for what he chose to do, anymore than if I ran over my neighbor for painting her house pink against HOA rules.

    The end.

    You had some difficulty with section 230 (CDA) too I believe. This is even simpler.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  213. Sarah, see 146.

    Alex (15f526)

  214. “sorry, I was arguing facts”

    Alex – Wrong, you are asserting willing suspension of disbelief. There is a slight difference. See 146.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  215. Folks, everyone should read that nonsense at his link at 146. It assumes to be true everything that we are questioning him about. They could make a claim, they might have a case… There is as much factual argument in that post as there is in a demand letter from a plaintiff mill. It does a good job highlighting how vacuous Alex’s position is though.

    JD (9e6048)

  216. Y’all got a point, or you’re just angry ?

    Alex (15f526)

  217. Typical

    JD (9e6048)

  218. This may help y’all too:
    dailymotion.com/video/xq6zmh_homeowner-association-lawsuit-likely-in-martin-case_news

    Alex (15f526)

  219. the martins should charge up their credit cards in anticipation of sweet sweet HOA monies I think

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  220. 220: potential $ could be staggering. Could be.

    Zimmerman may end up ruining a lot more lives than just the Martin family and his own. We shall see.

    Alex (15f526)

  221. yes we shall! and whatever happens we’ll all just have to face it together, as a big loving American family

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  222. “220: potential $ could be staggering. Could be.”

    FACTS!!!!!!!!!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  223. Daleyrocks: maybe you are teachable!

    Alex (15f526)

  224. Daleyrocks – this is performance art, no?

    JD (9e6048)

  225. cough

    Dustin (330eed)

  226. 220.the martins should charge up their credit cards in anticipation of sweet sweet HOA monies I think

    Comment by happyfeet — 4/22/2012 @ 5:19 pm

    Heh! The damages in wrongful death are loss of future earnings. The Martins could sue for his SSI, welfare, and food stamps. Zimmerman could bring in, for set off and indemnity, the Social Security Administration, the USDA, the Florida Department of Children and Family Services, and the Florida Department of Corrections, as third party defendants, claiming he saved the taxpayers a lot of money.

    nk (875f57)

  227. Alex,

    Homeowners and homeowners associations across the nation face wrongful death lawsuits every day without going bankrupt. Sometimes they prevail by showing no liability and other times they are liable but covered by insurance.

    First, the burden is on the plaintiffs to prove Zimmerman did something tortious (i.e., proof of duty, breach of duty, causation, and damages) and also that the HOA is responsible for his actions. I submit there isn’t much that supports either conclusion at this point. Second, even if Zimmerman and the HOA are found liable, my guess is Florida law does not allow punitive damages unless plaintiffs can prove Zimmerman acted intentionally or with gross negligence — a big hurdle.

    Of course, the publicity associated with this case could make it more uncertain than the usual case. However, that doesn’t mean the result will be different unless the publicity has an undue influence on the jury pool or the jury pool is more sympathetic to Martin than Zimmerman, but I don’t know enough about Sanford to address that.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  228. Alex, you poor thing.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  229. 227: refreshingly honest, and klassy!

    Alex (15f526)

  230. 228: yes. The hoa may win, they may lose, they may not even be sued. And until that is settled, no one will be buying a house there. And should the hoa be sued, and lose or settle, every home owner will have to pay their share.

    Yeah! Can’t sell my house and may end up paying thousands, or more outta my pocket! Yeah! Bet they love ol Zimmerman up there!

    Alex (15f526)

  231. If he really believes there’s truth in what he’s saying, then Alex apparently must also assume that much of what remains of the real estate market in America is doomed.

    If there was a lawsuit against Zimmerman’s HOA, and if the Martins prevailed, and if the HOA and the individual property owners went into bankruptcy as a result of a “multi million dollar” judgment, and if the place became a ghost town—–then who in their right mind anywhere in America would ever again risk buying a home or condo that involved belonging to a Homeowners’ Association? No one.

    elissa (be2283)

  232. And should the hoa be sued, and lose or settle, every home owner will have to pay their share.

    Evidence, please?

    JD (9e6048)

  233. Elissa – if ifs and buts were candy and nuts …

    JD (9e6048)

  234. 233 what evidence would suffice?

    Alex (15f526)

  235. I think they release the T4 virus, right after JD;

    narciso (8d0f34)

  236. 235.233 what evidence would suffice?

    Comment by Alex — 4/22/2012 @ 6:25 pm

    Your employment history and proof that your mother is not paying for your internet connection would be a start.

    nk (875f57)

  237. “Alex, you poor thing.”

    Comment by SarahW

    Yes, but his nitwitticisms temper the mercy shown him.

    Colonel Haiku (d22b1f)

  238. #237… much too cruel, nk, but terrible funny!

    Colonel Haiku (d22b1f)

  239. Alex, the blog posting you pointed to in your #146 is full of crap. Its a pile of baseless speculation that’s meaningless. There are huge gaps in the reasoning of that post to the extent that’s its simply fantasy.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  240. Evidence that individual homeowners would have to reach I to their own pocket as a result of a settlement for the HOA. Evidence that there is no insurance coverage for the HOA. Evidence that Z was acting as an agent of the HOA. Evidence if liability on behalf of the HOA. Evidence that the exemption laid out by nk above is not applicable.

    JD (9e6048)

  241. That is FACTS, SPQR. Facts.

    JD (9e6048)

  242. You mean that the assets of a homeowners’ association is most likely limited to the common area that the HOA has actually had deeded to it? There’s a fact. That HOA’s are usually nonprofit corporations with the attendent limited liability?

    And of course the fact that respondeat superior itself is seldom inclusive of criminal acts by an employee, putative or otherwise, as crime is not within the scope of employment?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  243. Good to see you here, SPQR.

    nk (875f57)

  244. Its good to be seen, nk.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  245. daleyrocks,

    I still don’t know if Florida law provides that a HOA’s lien is superior or inferior to a mortgage lien, but in this 2010 Florida bankruptcy case the parties agreed the HOA’s assessment/lien was an inferior lien. I think this case involved unpaid HOA fees and not a wrongful death judgment, but the analysis should be the same and might go like this:

    1. Assume both Zimmerman and the HOA are sued and held liable for the wrongful death of Trayvon Martin; and

    2. Assume the total wrongful death judgment is not paid by insurance, e.g., if there is no insurance or there are exclusions or deductibles; and

    3. Assume Zimmerman cannot pay the judgment and/or the plaintiffs are allowed by law to look first or solely to the HOA to pay the judgment; then

    4. The HOA would either have to pay the judgment from funds on hand or assess the homeowners to obtain enough funds to pay the judgment. If the HOA has to assess the homeowners, the bylaws and rules of the HOA and applicable Florida laws would govern how that assessment is done and how it will impact the homes.

    Many HOA bylaws and rules and state laws provide that HOA assessments are secured by liens on the property. Reading the case linked above, it appears some Florida HOA liens may be secondary to mortgage liens. In those cases, the HOA liens would be secured by the underlying real property only to the extent there is equity in the property over and above the amount of the mortgage lien. The remainder could be an unsecured claim dischargeable in bankruptcy, unless it is subject to an exception to discharge.

    NOTE: I have no idea if this analysis is correct, if it accurately states past or current Florida or bankruptcy law, or if there are other factors that might change this analysis. As with everything I write here/online, this is for discussion purposes only.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  246. I had to steal this one:

    Armed self defense: it works in practice, but will it work in theory?

    Comment from defensive gun use by 89 yr old woman

    BfC (fd87e7)

  247. DRJ, its your step 4 that I’m not sure of. I don’t know if Florida law allows a judgment creditor of an HOA to supercede the membership of the HOA in exercising control of the HOA to use its assessment power.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  248. “Many HOA bylaws and rules and state laws provide that HOA assessments are secured by liens on the property.”

    DRJ – Thanks for digging. As a lender or other secured creditor, if I have a first priority lien on a property, I am not voluntarily going to share that priority with others. It makes absolutely no sense.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  249. We have seen what Barcky will do to secured creditors.

    JD (318f81)

  250. JD – Yes, yes we have.

    I wonder whether the voices in Alex’s head stop when he is asleep.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  251. SPQR,

    Under my hypothetical, the HOA is independently liable for the wrongful death (as set forth in item 1.) and that’s why the HOA would have to assess the homeowners — just as it would assess them for any other liability. However, for the HOA to be liable, there would have to be a finding that Zimmerman’s conduct was negligent and the HOA was responsible for Zimmerman and his actions that night. As I said earlier, I find that unlikely based on what we’ve seen so far.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  252. I guess I’m also assuming the HOA bylaws and rules require that all lawful debts and liabilities be paid, and provide for assessments to pay them. It’s possible some HOA’s bylaws and rules might allow more discretion in that regard.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  253. 241: and what form should that evidence take? I am trying to work w you here. Tell me specifically what it takes for you to accept these possibilities. Thanks !

    Alex (15f526)

  254. Alex – Thank you for confirming for everyone that this is a big game for you, and how fundamentally unserious you are.

    JD (318f81)

  255. 246: as I know, this is generally correct. There is case law in FLA for HOA being court ordered to lien property for payments.

    And again, whose gonna buy anything in that HOA until this is all settled? And it might not be settled for 5 years or more…. Certainly gonna be a couple years.

    Alex (15f526)

  256. 252: I agree, except that I find a civil judgement (or settlement) at least a 50/50 bet

    Alex (15f526)

  257. SPQR – where does this idea that Alex pushes that future property holders could be responsible for the actions of Z via the HOA for actions that happened before they owned the property come from?

    JD (318f81)

  258. 258: Answer: reality.

    Sorry couldn’t help it.

    But seriously, that’s standard and basic stuff. But keep in mind also that the seller must disclose all info to the buyer regarding these liabilities or potential liabilities…. So I don’t think you’d be able to sell at all…. Again, who’d buy?

    Alex (15f526)

  259. SPQR – have you seen where Alex offered any evidence of it’s assertions yet?

    JD (318f81)

  260. 260: again JD, please, tell me the proof you require, specifically the type and form, and I’ll try to accommodate.

    Alex (15f526)

  261. @259: anyone who wanted the unit and was smart enough to know that there is no way the HOA is in any way liable for the actions of a resident who is NOT acting as its agent…

    IOW, anyone with an IQ larger than their hat size and the financial resources to seal the deal.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  262. Evidence that individual homeowners would have to reach I to their own pocket as a result of a settlement for the HOA. Evidence that there is no insurance coverage for the HOA. Evidence that Z was acting as an agent of the HOA. Evidence if liability on behalf of the HOA. Evidence that the exemption laid out by nk above is not applicable.

    Rather than answering, you quibbled about format.

    JD (318f81)

  263. I think we all now know why “Alex” used to be in real estate. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist, but you do need to be a bit advanced beyond like the velcro shoe level of development.

    JD (318f81)

  264. JD here is something on HOA liens. Just general, but so you get the idea.
    http://www.martindale.com/real-estate/article_The-Lynch-Law-Firm-LLC_819720.htm

    Alex (15f526)

  265. Alex– Posting some real life examples uncovered by your research– or results of a lexisnexis search for lawsuits involving HOA liability would be a start. Especially ones that resulted in multi million dollar judgments that were then passed on to individual homeowners via assessments/liens. Show your work instead of playing games why dontcha?.

    elissa (be2283)

  266. Non-payment of dues and being individually responsible for the actions of an individual who had not been acting as an agent of the HOA are not the same thing. It seems kind of silly to have to even point that out.

    JD (318f81)

  267. That is silly talk, Elissa.

    JD (318f81)

  268. Whether the hoa will win lose or settle is not known JD. Obviously.

    Alex (15f526)

  269. You asserted that if the HOA settles, individuals will have to pay out of pocket. Show your work.

    So far, you have shown yourself to be quite vapid.

    JD (318f81)

  270. The hoa newsletter lists Zimmerman as the neighborhood watch contact person. I think any decent lawyer be able to establish a connection.

    Remember, in civil cases there is no “beyond reasonable doubt” nor do you need a unanimous jury. Much easier.

    Alex (15f526)

  271. 271: this is why I asked you to specifically tell me what u want. I keep giving you data on top of data, and you keep finding a (flimsy) excuse to ignore it.

    Alex (15f526)

  272. They have a newsletter, and Z was in it, therefore he was acting on the HOA’s behalf? That is your legal reasoning?

    Revolving doors are a challenge for you, no? Do you wait until you are dizzy before calling out for help?

    Goodnight, friends. Be kind to the short busser.

    JD (318f81)

  273. JD–considering that even our brilliant president does not know the difference between comprehensive and liability insurance for his car, you really are asking a lot of our friend Alex to understand the difference between non-payment of association dues and agency.

    elissa (be2283)

  274. You gave no data, much less piles of data. You gave a link to an ambulance chaser assuming liability and acting as an agent of the HOA, a link to yahoo answers and a link to martindale about non-payment of HOA dues. I asked basic questions applicable to your assertions. If you had any clue what you were yammering on about, the answers would be easy, and you would answer the actual questions rather than doing silly google searches for FL HOA lien.

    JD (318f81)

  275. Alex work here is done.

    JD (318f81)

  276. Elissa – too true. If it is too much for the towering intellect of the dog eater, it is way above alex’s pay grade.

    JD (318f81)

  277. I take JD’s running away as admission he finally agreed with me. Thanks JD! Good night…

    Alex (15f526)

  278. Not to break the wonderful give and take of this thread, but open carry in Florida is illegal (in reference to a comment a couple of hundred of posts back).

    navyvet (f5da59)

  279. On public property–Many states make open carry illegal (you can only show the gun if you think you will need to use it).

    However, on private property (gated community), Open Carry should have been legal (guessing–live on other coast).

    My point was that open carry may have dissuaded T. from attacking in the first place (assuming T. sucker punched Z. in the first place)… T. would never have stalked/confronted if T. new that that Z. was armed (assuming it was my post you commented on).

    BfC (fd87e7)

  280. “There is case law in FLA for HOA being court ordered to lien property for payments.”

    Alex – What priority are the HOA liens?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  281. Neighborhood Watches are usually conducted with concurrence and support of the local police department, at least in my experience…

    maybe this means Thug Life’s family can get Alex to sue the local PD and the city for the death of their little wanna be gang banger.

    i’m still waiting for some link between the acts of a private citizen and the HOA.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  282. I’ve provided numerous points on the link. Tell me specifically what you require and I will attempt oblige.

    Alex (15f526)

  283. “Squirrel!”—
    Oh, I mean, uh, there’s breaking news that Zimmerman posted bond and has left jail…

    Sue (6623c5)

  284. who was it – Liontooth? said that it somehow becomes illegal to see where someone is going, when they run out of one’s sight, if one has a concealed carry permit.
    Concealed carry doesn’t restrict your right of movement in any place where it is legal to carry a concealed weapong
    Comment by SarahW — 4/22/2012 @ 1:59 pm

    No, what I posted was a link to the licensing page, which says, “Carrying a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman”
    http://www.tinyurl.com/floridacc

    Zimmerman was where he was because he was pursuing Martin.

    Don’t see from your link how concealed carry even enters here… Zimmerman was on private property (gated community). Open or concealed carry is perfectly legal with or without a permit (in most states).
    -Bill
    Comment by BfC — 4/22/2012 @ 2:49 pm

    In Florida one needs a permit to carry a concealed weapon. “A person carrying a concealed firearm without a license is guilty of a felony of the third degree.”

    My point was that open carry may have dissuaded T. from attacking in the first place (assuming T. sucker punched Z. in the first place)… T. would never have stalked/confronted if T. new that that Z. was armed (assuming it was my post you commented on).
    Comment by BfC — 4/22/2012 @ 9:13 pm

    The law in Florida doesn’t give Zimmerman the right to open carry/display.

    Never display a handgun to gain “leverage” in an argument. Threatening someone verbally while possessing a handgun, even licensed, will land you in jail for three years.

    liontooth (c33c1e)

  285. The hoa newsletter lists Zimmerman as the neighborhood watch contact person. I think any decent lawyer be able to establish a connection.

    – Sure, because reporting on what’s happening in the neighborhood makes you responsible for everything that happens in the neighborhood.
    No proof WHATSOEVER that the HOA in any way established, sanctioned or controlled the operations of the neighborhood watch. No proof WHATSOEVER that a judgment against an HOA would in any way directly affect homeowners. No proof WHATSOEVER that anyone buying a home post-incident would be subject to a lien as a result of a judgment.

    Icy (940e92)

  286. I think a series of unsolved burglaries is very good for real estate values. Unfortunately, our previous residence was owned by someone else, and we only rented; so we were not able to capitalize on our two (or was it 3?) burglaries, the unsolved stabbing murder down the street, or the time we awoke to someone banging for help on out front door claiming there was someone shooting at them.

    We could have been rich.

    $300,000 condos going for $36,000 in Florida? Too bad I don’t have a reason to move there.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  287. Icy – his links provided piles and piles of data, dontcha know?!

    JD (9e6048)

  288. $53,000.00, near my daughter, in one of Chicago’s best suburbs, MD. Close to everything. Midway airport, Burlington Northern-Santa Fe, Illinois Central-Southern Pacific (been a song wrote about that one), two square miles of malls, any restaurant you want to spend your money in, the top ten percent of schools nationally.

    nk (875f57)

  289. Let us not only stipulate that Zimmerman is only involved in a neighborhood watch in his subdivision, let us assume this watch is not a run informally by neighbors or through a police partnership, and mentioned in a newsletter, but is directly sponsored and administered by the HOA.

    Zimmerman was not on the scheduled patrol. He was not out as a member of the watch – he was on an unrelated errand of personal business.

    The HOA has nothing to do with anything he did in such a case because he is not “on patrol” let alone their patrol, and is not obligated to follow any rules of such a watch nor is the HOA responsible for any actions he chooses or is forced to take.

    If he had crashed his car into Mrs. Johnson’s holly tree, the HOA would not have been liable. If he had decided to collect campaign signs or throw eggs at houses, the HOA would not be responsible for any of his actions.

    All his actions were his own and the only person who could be liable is himself.

    ***************

    If your employer sends you out in the company van and you go off your regular route and rob a bank, guess who is not liable?

    If your employer sends you off in the company van and you have an accident on that van, which you are only entitled to use on company business – when you have taken that van on a joyride to visit your aunt in Schenectady. You have too much of your Aunt’s damson gin and crash into a minivan full of brownie scouts, killing them all.
    Guess who is NOT liable? If he’d crashed the van delivering your donuts, well then they would be liable.

    Zimmerman wasn’t evan in a company Van, authorized to conduct company bbusiness.

    he was He wasn’t on any of the scheduled watches. He happened to see a suspicious person, reported them, and tried to investigate the location of that person.

    Even if he had run out of the car, weapon drawn, to shoot the twelve-year old down like a skittle eating dog for the crime of loitering in a hoodie, the HOA would not be on the hook.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  290. Gilbreath also said Zimmerman’s claim that Martin was slamming his head against the sidewalk just before he shot the teenager was “not consistent with the evidence we found.” He gave no details.

    That probably means witness testimony he chose to rely on. Everyone knows that eyewitness testimony is more reliable than forensic evidence. That’s why all those claims of innocence involving DNA have been thrown out. NOT!

    It’s probably only a selective use and interpretation of wiitness tetsimomny too.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  291. i> But-cept, didn’t you see that picture, Mr. Gilbreath? Isn’t that kinda sorta evidence of the guy getting his head slammed into the sidewalk?

    Actually this is evidence of dragging his head a foot or two along the sidewalk. Those are cuts and scratches. He couldn’t lift his head very high. I think he managed to change downward motion into sideways motion. George Zimmerman must have gotten himself onto the grass rather quickly. That’s part of the reason there’s so much blood.

    Banging his head on the sidewalk would only cause internal bleeding – a hematoma.

    Incidentally, the bleeding would nmot all occur at once. When you have a deep thin narrow cut blood often seeps out over time.

    Reading more, I found out that George Zimemrman actually was offered a trip to the hospital buyt declined. So I can’t use that as proof he never said his head was banged on the sidewalk. I still say he couldn’t have actually said his head was banged repeatedly on the sidewalk, and that didn’t happen.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  292. Dang this ipad.

    Missimg sentence at the mysterious “he was” – Z was in his own car, on his own time, conducting his own personal business.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  293. SarahW – But, but, but but, see all the data in 146!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  294. f*cking c**n
    scratched my head
    dragging me away

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  295. Where is this murder charge coming from again?

    There is no way this charge is justified.

    According to DRJ Comment number 54 at 4/21/2012 @ 1:22 pm

    Florida’s jury instructions (which are based on the Florida statute) spell out three elements that prosecutors must prove to establish second degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt:

    – The victim is deceased,

    – The victim’s death was caused by the defendant’s criminal act, and

    – There was an unlawful killing of the victim “by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.”

    The last element — an “imminently dangerous” act that shows a “depraved mind” — is further defined by Florida’s jury instructions. Three elements must be present:

    …. – A “person of ordinary judgment” would know the act, or series of acts, “is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another”;

    – The act is “done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent”; and

    – The act is “of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.”

    If he’s being attacked, I don’t think you can say
    shooting him was “done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent”

    A police detective originally wanted to charge him that night with:

    Negligent Manslaughter – UNNECESSARY KILLING TO PREVENT UNLAWFUL ACT.

    That would assume, let’s say, he had two or more easy ways of escape, one or more of which did not involve killing Travon Martin.

    But they’re still going by the theory that Zimmerman attacked Martin.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  296. Of course while there are problems with the idea of Martin attacking Zimmerman: Basically that it makes him sound like a zombie!! Because, without further explanation, it makes no sense…..

    ….There are more problems the other way.

    There is no way that Zimmerman could have intentionally confronted Martin, like the affidavit says, because he didn’t know where he was!! and Martin could outrun him, and he wasn’t in his vehicle.

    To be in the same place, Martin would have had to have deliberately gone near to Zimmerman, or they they would have had to have accidentally run into each other AND Martin was either lost or not heading home.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  297. I understand the law about open carry/display limitations… But that probably served to escalate this encounter.

    The cops in our area open carry in both uniform and plain cloths (and off duty–i.e., waiting outside a restaurant for lunch).

    I am becoming less and less of a fan of “its OK for a government employee with court invented limited immunity but will get a California citizen tossed in jail in a New York minute”. Cannot even carry an unloaded hand gun in California without it being in a locked container (as of beginning of this year).

    We have more than enough problems here with off duty drunk armed police and them getting their relatives off of charges/tickets/etc. (see Z. getting justice for black homeless person beat by Sandford FL cop’s kid).

    At this point–I would prefer to see off-duty officers having to meet the same requirements for weapon carry/display as an ordinary citizen. If nobody in CA can get concealed carry permits, then no off duty cop should conceal carry either.

    The history of private armed citizens is better (less problems with law enforcement, fewer bystanders shot, fewer “wrong suspect shot”, etc.) than with the police (or Elected Mayors against Guns) themselves.

    BfC (fd87e7)

  298. The affidavit says Zimmerman “confronted” Martin, after which a struggle ensued. In a likely preview of the defense strategy at trial, O’Mara questioned the use of the word “confronted.”

    “Do you know who started the fight?” he asked the investigator at one point.

    “Do I know? No,” Gilbreath said.

    “Do you have any evidence that supports who may have started the fight?”

    “No” Gilbreath said.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  299. Just google “is hoa liable Zimmerman”, you’ll see tons of proof

    I hope Zimmerman didnt go back there. You know, cause people in the hoa are probably sooooo happy he made their houses worthless, I’m sure they’ve planned a parade.

    Alex (15f526)

  300. Comment by daleyrocks — 4/21/2012 @ 1:38 pm

    Icy – It is obvious to me that the services of forensic audio expert Inspector Sammy Clouseau are required STAT!

    The word was “colds” It was not “cold” because the temperature in Sanford was 63 degrees Fahrenheit and there is a definite S there.

    http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSFB/2012/2/26/DailyHistory.html

    6:53 PM 63.0°F Dew Point: 60.1 °F Humidity: 90% Barometric Pressure: 30.30 in Wind direction NE Wind Speed 6.9 mph Rain or Light Rain

    (From Wikipedia, from National Review)

    Zimmerman was cursing to himself about not being able to catch Martin and he attributed this to some recent colds he had had.

    This needs some confirmation. Did Zimmerman actually colds in January or February? If he did that would pretty much establish what that word was.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  301. El chingado otra vez.

    nk (875f57)

  302. The man who says the word was “punks” is the same person who, in that non-April Fools story in the Orlando Sentinel, claimed that it was not Zimmerman (and therefore was Trayvon) yelling for help on a 911 tape!

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

    Owen, a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library’s Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound, is an authority on biometric voice analysis — a computerized process comparing attributes of voices to determine whether they match.

    After the Sentinel contacted Owen, he used software called Easy Voice Biometrics to compare Zimmerman’s voice to the 911 call screams.

    “I took all of the screams and put those together, and cut out everything else,” Owen says.

    The software compared that audio to Zimmerman’s voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he’d expect higher than 90 percent.

    “As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it’s not Zimmerman,” Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon’s, because he didn’t have a sample of the teen’s voice to compare….
    fingerprints, but they do still need to talk to one another,” he says….

    ….Another benefit of modern biometric analysis, Owen said, is it doesn’t require an “in context” comparison. In other words, Owen didn’t need a sample of Zimmerman screaming in order to compare his voice to the call.

    So let’s see: A 50-50 chance – according to someone’s own data – becomes a 0% chance, because
    if it was a match it should have been a 90% chance!!

    That was one expert the Orlando Sentinel called in.

    The other “expert” was just relying on “human analysis based on forensic experience after listening closely to the 911 tape.”

    Groucho Marx couldn’t talk such nonsense as those two.

    Now, most they likely the Orlando Sentinel didn’t go looking for impartial experts. They were fed a ready made story probably by the Trayvon family lawyers or Al Sharpton or somebody else pushing the murder idea.

    They almost certainly didn’t pay them and they probably didn’t do this for free or to promote their business.

    I don’t believe this attributing the screams to NOT Zimmerman was done without some connection to some people involved in or lobbying about this case.

    This business of who screamed is crucial to the prosecution’s case.

    .

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  303. Esculpame, la chingada otra vez.

    nk (875f57)

  304. Alex, it’s not “proof” – and it’s based on the notion that he was acting with some agency for the HOA, which he was not.

    No agency, no liability. period.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  305. Comment by MD in Philly — 4/23/2012 @ 7:09 am

    $300,000 condos going for $36,000 in Florida? Too bad I don’t have a reason to move there.

    I heard something similar. Houses are maybe worth one quarter of what they were at the height of the bubble. I forgot the details of prices soimebody told me.

    It is still more than what was paid for the house many years ago.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  306. But as you have problems with discernment, or a bent to the disingenuous argument one or the other, I’ll leave you to look up agency and resolve your own worries about the well-being of the neighbors.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  307. 306: it is proof that legal and HOA experts think it is viable. Of course ultimate proof will be the trial. But clearly the HOA maybe liable, and clearly no one will buy a house there until this is settled. Why do you refuse to accept this?

    Alex (15f526)

  308. Comment by shipwreckedcrew — 4/21/2012 @ 1:49 am

    The lead investigator is now worthless as a trial witness.

    Hiow could he be a witness at all. He has no firsthand information. He can be a witness at any hearing where hearsay is allowed – not any where else.

    More important — and Patrick will back me up on this — is that the defense attorney now has the lead gov’t investigator admitting under oath that he has no significant evidence that establishes that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation.

    That already seemed to be implied in the affidavit.

    Zimmerman can now testify to his version of events without fear of serious contradiction from the police. Any cop who gets on the stand now to offer something in that regard will be rebutted by testimony the defense will offer from the lead invesitgator, who they will call in order to have him repeat his testimony in the bail hearing today.

    Well, yes, but the police were not likely to commit perjury. This is the kind of acase that attracts perjury, but it probably wouldn’t be coming from there.

    One thing good trial lawyers do is minimize the number of times a witness is examined under oath. That always generates a question and answer transcript, and two or much such transcripts from the same witness provide fertile grounds for cross-examination.

    Zimmerman apparently made five statements that niht and they tried to accuse him of changing his testimony.

    He was asked by Bernando de la Rionda “Do you agree you changed your story?”

    He replied “Absolutely not.”

    Witnesses can NEVER retell their story twice in a perfectly consistent manner. So, any discrepancy — however minor — will be blown up on cross-examination and used to undermine the credibility of the witness

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  309. I see the twatwaffle is still unwilling and unable to lay out a simple theory of legal liability in re the HOA. People speculating about what might happen is not proof. Lawsuits about failure to pay dues is not proof. Assuming a bunch of things to be true that are not true does not constitute proof. Are you 8?

    JD (9e6048)

  310. JD – Alex has presented proof that people divorced from the specific underlying facts and evidence the Trayvon Martin death and HOA situation have opinions about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  311. Again, I just posts facts. I even explained how you can look up the info for yourself. I have even asked what form of proof you need.

    Look the HOA is most surely gonna be sued. The result? We will see. Does anyone claim the HOA will note sued?

    Doesn’t anyone claim that you can sell a house there now with this pending litigation?

    If so, perhaps you could provide a quarter of the data I have?

    And why do you refuse to accept reality here? Why is this so hard for you?

    Alex (15f526)

  312. Facts. This word does not mean what you appear to think it means. Your childish sophistry is noted.

    JD (9e6048)

  313. So you didnt research as I suggested, nor answer even 1 of my questions. But you used a big word! Lordy…

    Alex (15f526)

  314. Oh good heavens. I drop in at lunchtime to see what’s new on Patterico’s site and this HOA idiocy is still continuing.

    elissa (652e69)

  315. 316: I know, it seems so simple. Why they cannot just accept reality?

    Alex (15f526)

  316. poor little alex
    he’s like a dog with a bone
    or prez with a dog

    Colonel Haiku (d22b1f)

  317. “If so, perhaps you could provide a quarter of the data I have?”

    Alex – Please provide a list of the data you have provided. Go.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  318. what this site needs now
    is a good Romney bashing
    to get our bl00d up

    Colonel Haiku (d22b1f)

  319. Sammy #297,

    I’ve seen repeated claims that the lead investigator wanted to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter but was overruled. Authorities deny that claim.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  320. Performance art, Elissa.

    JD (9e6048)

  321. 319: see most of my earlier post after #100, also try 301 for DIY tips.

    Alex (15f526)

  322. 324: troll. Lame.

    Alex (15f526)

  323. Evidence that individual homeowners would have to reach I to their own pocket as a result of a settlement for the HOA. Evidence that there is no insurance coverage for the HOA. Evidence that Z was acting as an agent of the HOA. Evidence if liability on behalf of the HOA. Evidence that the exemption laid out by nk above is not applicable.

    Show your work. We already know you won’t, but I rather enjoy watching you try to avoid the basics underlying your contentions.

    Show of hands, who disputes that the HOA may be sued? I am simply pointing out that is not in dispute. Whether or not there is a legal basis for it is in dispute.

    Go.

    JD (96c751)

  324. 326: wow, this long to get here: we agree! We agree the hoa will be sued. And we agree that (obviously) whether the HOA is liable –and if so, to want amount and degree– is in dispute (hence the reason this will be settled in court. After all if it was certain the hoA was liable, or not, there would be no need for a trial!)

    Yeah! Agreement.

    Alex (15f526)

  325. No, we do not agree. But nice try. You continue to prove how unserious you are. What is your theory of liability against the HOA?

    JD (9e6048)

  326. What is the legal basis for your ASSertion that individual homeowners would be out of pocket for settlement and/or judgment?

    JD (9e6048)

  327. What is your legal basis for a claim that Z was acting as an agent of the HOA?

    JD (9e6048)

  328. How much do those goalposts weigh?

    JD (9e6048)

  329. Can we also agree that no lawyer worth his license would take the case except for nuisance value? And can we also agree that as long as Zimmerman is subject to criminal prosecution, he can claim the Fifth Amendment in civil discovery? Can we also agree that a judgment creditor, can only touch homestead, in Florida, above $25 million? Can we also agree that you are basically a delusional asshole whom no one here respects or takes seriously?

    nk (875f57)

  330. Icy – his links provided piles and piles of data, dontcha know?!
    – FTFY

    Just google “is hoa liable Zimmerman”, you’ll see tons of proof
    – So, questions now equal proof? Ahem . . .
    Is nk correct: “Your employment history and proof that your mother is not paying for your internet connection would be a start.”

    Of course ultimate proof will be the trial.
    – The criminal trial will prove liability on the part of the HOA? Or are you back on the civil-suit-that-has-neither-been-announced-nor-filed meme?

    But clearly the HOA maybe liable
    – IF they established and managed the neighborhood watch, and IF Zimmerman was on a scheduled patrol at the time in question, and IF the neighborhood watch rules (as set down by the HOA) allowed conceal carry . . . NONE of which you know to be true.

    and clearly no one will buy a house there until this is settled.
    – You don’t know that either. There are probably some real bargains to be had!

    Icy (940e92)

  331. Silly talk, icy.

    JD (9e6048)

  332. I feel dumb for engaging J&J/le’twin anymore. Guess I’ll quit.

    SarahW (33ef3a)

  333. But it can be fun kicking a rabid dog, SarahW. What rock did those two clowns climb up from under, anyway?

    nk (875f57)

  334. JD: don’t flip flop. We agree! It’s ok’!

    333:
    Yep, great bargins, thanks to ol Zimmerman, most loved man in the hoa :-D

    Alex (15f526)

  335. Could be just one.

    nk (875f57)

  336. Nk: look young lady, no need to insult. Try debating.

    Alex (15f526)

  337. Try answering even just 1 question I posed.

    JD (9e6048)

  338. 328: legal blogs such as the one linked

    329: Florida case law

    330: same as 328

    Alex (15f526)

  339. You are silly

    JD (9e6048)

  340. undoubtedly some idiot could file a suit against the HOA, but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t get tossed out during pre-trial motions, either on demurrer or motion for summary judgement.

    i could also see a counter suit for harassment that would likely win on a motion for summary judgment.

    and i’ve yet to see a rational explanation why a home in the community in question could not be sold.

    remember when we had good trolls?

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  341. Your nonresponsive drivel is cute.

    JD (9e6048)

  342. 344: project much.

    What I find interesting at this point is why you cannot accept reality? What drives this emotion based stubbornness?

    Alex (15f526)

  343. This is someone putting on an act. Has to be.

    JD (9e6048)

  344. What exactly am I denying, based on emotion ?

    JD (9e6048)

  345. 346: project much (part 2)?

    347: that’s my question. Care to answer?

    Alex (15f526)

  346. Reminds me of my clients’ bitches.

    nk (875f57)

  347. HOA worked hard
    to chase troll from under bridge
    poor Rumpleforeskin

    Colonel Haiku (d22b1f)

  348. Re: those $300k Florida condos now going for $36k

    They’re in large developments often with several hundred individual units (say 200 in this example) and extensive common use clubhouses, golf courses, pools, tennis courts, etc. Which are all supported by monthly fees to the HO Association, say about $800/mo back in the good old days.

    Now, since 65-75% (say 70%) of owners have abandoned their units, the ongoing HOA costs for minimum upkeep of amenities now falls on many fewer owners who have no option but to walk away or to continue to pony up more and more each month.

    Once upon a time, before Obama, $800/mo x 200 units = $160,000/mo for upkeep.

    Now, $160,000/mo divided by the remaining 60 unit owners (30% of 200) means each owner now has to come up with $2,667/mo or an additional $1,867/mo over and above the original $800/mo (less, of course, new fees for access to amenities and whatever the HOA can squeeze from renters, squatters, and drug dealers.)

    However, increasing security costs will result in higher monthly fees and insurance will cost more too.

    It ain’t a pretty picture and the $36k purchase price fails to represent the true cost of condo ownership. Caveat emptor.

    ropelight (27d918)

  349. Comment by DRJ — 4/21/2012 @ 2:36 pm

    Zimmerman’s and Martin’s size and weight have been the subject of speculation from the beginning. I think Tom Maguire did a good job summing up the various opinions here (including the police report [no longer available online]

    It is no longer avbailable at the Sandford.gov website, but iut is available online (it is not copyrighted and there can be no legal restrictions on publishing it)

    One place with a good copy (much better than scribd) is:

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/329568/twin-lakes-shooting-initial-report.pdf

    You can do a Google search for Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report pdf for others.

    that said Martin was 6′ and 160 pounds, while Zimmerman was described as 5’9″ with no weight listed).

    There have been different weights reported for Zimmerman

    Wikipedia now says” “family friend Joe Oliver said Zimmerman is 5’8″ tall and weighs 170 lbs.[38].”

    Zimmerman may have lost weight in the last year or so.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  350. Alex pukes up: “The hoa newsletter lists Zimmerman as the neighborhood watch contact person. I think any decent lawyer be able to establish a connection.

    Nope. Fail. “Neighborhood Watch” is a police dept sponsored program. Not a HOA officeholder.

    Alex, your whole series of comments are stupid, vapid trolls.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  351. SPQR – it uses English words, but it clearly does not understand them.

    JD (9e6048)

  352. 321. Comment by DRJ — 4/23/2012 @ 11:13 am

    Sammy #297,

    I’ve seen repeated claims that the lead investigator wanted to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter but was overruled. Authorities deny that claim.

    The police report simply lists that as the description of the offense (they are investigating)

    Perhapsd Sanford’s lead investigator, Chris Serino, did propose this, but somebody else put a stop to it. Or maybe he never actually made a formal proposal.
    What may not be true is that the State Attorney did NOT put a stop to it. That’s what the denail is about.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  353. Thanks, ropelight, for the additional info.
    Over the weekend I heard an add for some similar housing development around some big lake down south, reportedly $1,000,000 properties going for some very low price under $200,000. I imagine the same scenario.

    I think once Z is judged innocent because he acted in self defense, that any lawyer who tries to file a wrongful death suit should be disbarred, or at least counter-sued for harassment.

    not a legal opinion.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  354. Sorry, MD in Philly, there’s an unqualified right to recourse in the courts.

    Or, strap on yer six-iron, I’ll be in the street.

    nk (875f57)

  355. I know what you mean, but we cannot draw the line so fine that people don’t know whether it’s better to take the law into their own hands.

    nk (875f57)

  356. BTW, my doctor put me on Ativan, which is a hallugenic and amnesiac, so I could be d. in c.

    Hello, me. Are you me?

    nk (875f57)

  357. memory loss maybe, but it’s rare.

    never heard of anyone hallucinating on lorazepam.

    (this is not medical advice)

    redc1c4, proud AoS moron (403dff)

  358. Sammy #354,

    I agree the denial is confusing, so bear with me while I restate the possibilities since I’m not sure what you’re saying.

    Chris Serino was the lead Sanford police department investigator on the Martin case. The State’s Attorney in Seminole County when the shooting occurred was Norm Wolfinger. However, the Governor subsequently replaced Wolfinger with a neighboring State’s Attorney, Angela Corey. Corey has her own lead investigator for this case. His name is Dale Galbreath and he testified at the Zimmerman bond hearing.

    ABC News reported that Chris Serino filed an affidavit on February 26th in support of manslaughter charges against Zimmerman. Serino reportedly met that night with Wolfinger, who overruled Serino’s recommendation to bring manslaughter charges. The link I provided said authorities denied this claim, but I agree this could be taken to mean several things. For instance:

    1. Serino never filed an affidavit; or

    2. Serino never recommended charges be brought against Zimmerman, or

    3. Wolfinger didn’t meet with Serino that night, or

    4. Wolfinger didn’t overrule Serino’s recommendation:

    (a). that night, or
    (b). at any time, or
    (c). there was no recommendation so there was nothing to overrule.

    5. Some combination of the above.

    My impression is Wolfinger denied meeting with Serino that night (#3), but I can’t find the statement the link says was released so — like you — I don’t really know what the denial meant.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  359. you can file just about anything you want, but the courts can punish you for frivolous or vexatious litigation that impedes an already overloaded system… approach novel causes of action with appropriate care.

    personally, i’d rather sort things out in the street: you bring your six gun and i’ll trust my Garand to do my talking for me.

    redc1c4 (403dff)

  360. Thanks for the link, narciso. Here’s the letter from Ben Crump, the Martin family attorney, and here’s how the media described Wolfinger’s response:

    Wolfinger released a statement Monday saying he was “outraged by the outright lies contained in the letter…” and he, “encourages the Justice Department to investigate and document that no such meeting or communication occurred.”

    I still can’t find Wolfinger’s complete statement, but this does sound like his objection is to the claim that he met with the Sanford police that night.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  361. This seems to be it it, sometimes you have to make a blanket denial, it’s not worth challenging point by point

    http://www.wftv.com/documents/2012/apr/02/wolfinger-letter-department-justice/

    narciso (8d0f34)

  362. never heard of anyone hallucinating on lorazepam.

    (this is not medical advice)
    Comment by redc1c4, proud AoS moron — 4/23/2012 @ 5:38 pm

    Then it was my brain injury, but I was seeing strangers coming out of the kitchen of my hosspital room, with my brother telling me “There are no kitchens in hospitall rooms”, and black block letters on a white background, THERE ARE NO KITCHENS IN HOSPITAL ROOMS. They had snowed me with 250 mgs of ativan. I slept for twenty-four straight.

    nk (875f57)

  363. Good researching, narciso. Thanks so much.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  364. Compare and contrast narcisco’s facts and alex’s fact-y thingies

    JD (318f81)

  365. Ben Crump’s accusations were essentially that there had been a cover-up (motivated either by politics or racism) This was a hook to get a federal investigation started.

    Wolfinger’s statement is vague, I think, because if he was less vague, and, say, discussed what exactly Chris Serino or anyone else did or said, and how far the idea of arresting or prosecuting George Zimmerman went on the night of Feb 26, and who decided against it, and when, he would be guilty of, or could be accused of, revealing confidential information.

    He probably wrote a more private, detailed description of events, possibly sending it to the special Florida prosecutor.

    Sammy Finkelman (75d53e)

  366. There are some people involved in this case, who don’t seem to believe in an independent third branch of government, and don’t want people to even understand the idea.

    Sammy Finkelman (75d53e)

  367. Again, I just posts facts.
    – What about this ^^^ ? Hypocrite.

    Does anyone claim the HOA will [not be] sued?
    – I claim that you do not know whether or not it will be sued.

    Doesn’t anyone claim that you can sell a house there now with this pending litigation?
    – Yes, because there is NO “pending” litigation.

    If so, perhaps you could provide a quarter of the data I have?
    – If I provided a quarter’s worth of data you would owe me for the difference.

    Icy (9fb67b)

  368. You don’t sue a house. The way you gits a judgment lien on a house, was you to ax me on the way back from trading your food stamps for crack, is if you have won a judgment against the owner, who held title in his own name. And there’s still that pesky problem that you cannot touches the first $25 million worth.

    (Not directed at you, Icy. At Alexsshole.

    nk (875f57)

  369. 371: medicated this morning? I said a long time ago the the HOA will be sued, not homeowners. The HOA will the asses homeowners to pay the judgement, should there be one.

    It’s really simple and straight forward.

    Alex (15f526)

  370. Simple when you pull the basis for the suit out of your ass.

    SPQR (13e27d)

  371. This is the song that never ends, it just goes on and on my friends……..

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)


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