Patterico's Pontifications

4/8/2012

The Obligatory John Derbyshire Post

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 11:49 pm

So John Derbyshire has been fired by National Review. I was on vacation for most of the controversy, looking at giant trees in Sequoia National Park while I was supposed to be opining on yet another racial controversy. It’s tempting to leave it at that, and yet I feel I have a thought or two to offer.

Rather than simply putting my hands on my hips and clucking my tongue, I’d like to offer some of my own personal experiences, some of which are retreads of stories I have told before — but all of which will hopefully explain why I found Derbyshire’s generalizations far too sweeping, to put it mildly.

This post is going to assume that you are familiar with the Derbyshire piece that stirred all this controversy. And if you’re going to start actively offering opinions in the comments, I suggest that you read the actual piece, and not simply the caricatures offered by Derbyshire’s critics.

That way, you’ll understand why I think the actual piece itself is so off target and unsettling.

Let me start with a piece I wrote in 2007 that I think sums up much of what I think of the life that takes place in what sheltered white people think of as “the ghetto”:

I visited Nickerson Gardens a while back in order to take pictures at a crime scene. Bounty Hunter Bloods patrolled the area, clearly annoyed that the police had invaded their space and temporarily disrupted their drug trade. Some stared at us. Some played dice and screamed obscenities.

But when we entered the residence where the crime had occurred, the tenants, who had recently moved in and were unaware of the murder that had occurred there, were as nice as they could possibly be. They apologized for the mess — really, it wasn’t bad at all — and allowed us to take pictures of their home. They asked why we were there, and when we told them, the man of the house started ticking off all his family members who had been murdered: his dad, his cousin . . . the list went on. We needed to crawl out onto a second-story ledge at one point, and the residents next door were similarly hospitable, letting me climb on their bed to hoist myself out the window for the pictures I needed to take.

As we walked across the street, three young Hispanic girls greeted us with a smile and a friendly “hi.” I smiled and said hi back — and silently hoped the Bounty Hunter Bloods hadn’t noticed. Jack Dunphy has written movingly of what can happen to kids who are caught being nice to law enforcement.

I am on my third tour in Compton; my first tours were 1999-2001, before and after my juvenile rotation. I used to go to Rosecrans Elementary School and talk to fifth graders about the justice system and the importance of staying out of trouble. Every year, I would invite a judge to speak to the kids. My favorite was the judge who had gone to school there, who told the kids that if he could study hard and become a judge, so could they. I told this story about the school in November 2003, but it still seems relevant:

I was teaching a weekly class about the criminal justice system, and there was a skit that involved someone being shot. I asked the students to raise their hands if they had ever heard gunfire from their houses.

Every hand in the room went up.

I asked them to raise their hands if a family member or friend had been shot.

Every hand but two went up.

So don’t tell me that these areas are lost. They aren’t. You look out at a classroom of 10-year-olds and tell me that they aren’t worth protecting.

While I am telling personal stories, I will add one I originally told in 2005, when I told a story about being the only white person in court most days, when I worked in Watts. It seems appropriate to re-tell it now:

When I worked in juvenile court at 76th and Central in Watts, I was very often the only white person in the courtroom. There were two courtrooms in the building, both run by black judges. On many days, all of the other players in court besides me — the judge, the clerk, the defense attorney, the court reporter, the probation officer, the bailiff, the minor, and the minor’s parents — were black.

So, one day the judge and the court reporter were talking about that George W. Bush guy. (This was during the 2000 election season.) The court reporter said: “Well, you know who supports him. It’s those white males!”

I looked at her with a smile and said: “Oh, come on. We’re not all that bad!”

She looked back at me, a little embarrassed, and said: “Oh, I wasn’t thinking about you. To me, you’re just one of us!”

I said: “I take that as a compliment.” And I did.

So while I was gently chiding her for her sweeping generalization about us “white males,” I did take it as a compliment that I fit in well enough in her world that she thought of me as “one of them.”

I went on to note that, in defiance of the lazy stereotypes that racists tend to hold, one of the black judges was a huge fan of classical music — opera in particular. He and I bonded over our shared love for classical music in general, and vocal music in particular — and I often benefited from this relationship by snorking up better seats at chamber music events where I saw the judge and he waved me up to some empty seat near the performer.

The judge has, regrettably, passed on since then . . . and I have less time to attend these wonderful chamber concerts. And frankly, it dampens my desire to go a little bit that I know I won’t see Commissioner Jones there. Not because I won’t be able to improve my seats, but because I won’t get to chat with him before and after the performance, and hear his booming laugh.

Now, does John Derbyshire deny the existence of black folks like Commissioner Jones, who aren’t out stealing, and bludgeoning whites in a racist frenzy? Of course not. But listen to the incredibly condescending way Derbyshire describes such black folks:

In that pool of forty million [black people in America], there are nonetheless many intelligent and well-socialized blacks. (I’ll use IWSB as an ad hoc abbreviation.) You should consciously seek opportunities to make friends with IWSBs. In addition to the ordinary pleasures of friendship, you will gain an amulet against potentially career-destroying accusations of prejudice.

Guess that amulet didn’t work so well for Derbyshire. But what strikes me about this language is how it must make Derbyshire’s black friends feel. Do they wonder if they are not really friends so much as “amulets” against charges of racism?

I was struck by many things in Derbyshire’s article, but this was one of the passages that really caught my attention. And this is not just a passing reference. Derbyshire really doubles down on the whole “make sure you can say some of your best friends are blacks” thing:

Be aware, however, that there is an issue of supply and demand here. Demand comes from organizations and businesses keen to display racial propriety by employing IWSBs, especially in positions at the interface with the general public—corporate sales reps, TV news presenters, press officers for government agencies, etc.—with corresponding depletion in less visible positions. There is also strong private demand from middle- and upper-class whites for personal bonds with IWSBs, for reasons given in the previous paragraph and also (next paragraph) as status markers.

Unfortunately the demand is greater than the supply, so IWSBs are something of a luxury good, like antique furniture or corporate jets: boasted of by upper-class whites and wealthy organizations, coveted by the less prosperous. To be an IWSB in present-day US society is a height of felicity rarely before attained by any group of human beings in history. Try to curb your envy: it will be taken as prejudice.

It’s impossible to imagine any black person of Derbyshire’s acquaintance reading this and not wondering what Derbyshire’s motive was in befriending them.

So. My experience tells me that yes, sometimes black people are suspicious of people of other races. Sometimes black people are criminals. But these generalizations are also true of whites.

As I alluded to in my 2007 piece quoted above, in my 14-year career in the District Attorney’s Office, I have worked in a number of areas that are heavily populated by black people. In addition to my previously mentioned juvenile assignment in Watts, I have been assigned to Compton on three separate occasions, as well as serving a stint downtown, which prosecutes a good deal of crime from South Los Angeles. Because I believe a good trial attorney must visit the scene of the crime he is prosecuting, I have visited locations all over South Los Angeles. It would be crazy for me to say that I feel as safe in these locations as I do where I live today.

But is the feeling of danger prompted by the color of the people — or by the economic despair and by the presence of a criminal element? While it is true that South Los Angeles has a significant gang presence that makes parts of it feel unsafe for unarmed whites, the fact is that gangs come in all colors and nationalities. In South Los Angeles, it’s not just blacks who are gangsters. It’s also Latinos and Samoans. Despite its largely black political leadership, Compton is a majority Latino area. In Long Beach there are black, Latino, and Asian gang members, as the city has the largest Cambodian population outside Cambodia. And in the San Fernando Valley, you’ll see plenty of violence from white gangs. So, depending on where you go, the criminal element comes in all different colors and nationalities.

So yes, South Los Angeles sometimes feels unsafe. And if Derbyshire had wanted to write a column about the interface between racial stereotypes and the occasional need citizens have to make snap judgments for their own safety, he could have written a provocative yet defensible column on that admittedly rather well-worn concept. For example, I can see telling my children: “if a situation feels dangerous, react accordingly, and don’t worry if it makes you look or feel like a racist. We all have built in danger detectors, and you don’t want to ignore yours for reasons of political correctness.”

But Derbyshire went much further than that. And as someone who has worked Compton for a large chunk of his professional career, I think it would be crazy for me to sign onto John Derbyshire’s bigoted view about black people. Let’s take another example of his silly (and I believe sheltered) outlook:

Avoid concentrations of blacks not all known to you personally.

Stay out of heavily black neighborhoods.

If planning a trip to a beach or amusement park at some date, find out whether it is likely to be swamped with blacks on that date (neglect of that one got me the closest I have ever gotten to death by gunshot).

Do not attend events likely to draw a lot of blacks.

If you are at some public event at which the number of blacks suddenly swells, leave as quickly as possible.

Jeez. Where you do start with something like this? First of all, Los Angeles has a very well-to-do neighborhood called Ladera Heights which is a “heavily black neighborhood.” According to John Derbyshire, I guess you’re supposed to avoid it. Except that it has beautiful views of the Los Angeles basin, it is perfectly safe, and I personally know people who are very happy to live there. Back when Mrs. P. and I lived in Marina del Rey, we would sometimes go and park our car at a friend’s house in Ladera Heights when we went out of town on vacation, because it was our impression that our car would be safer there than at our home in the Marina. Tonight I looked up a web site that says that crime in heavily white and wealthy Marina del Rey and majority black Ladera Heights is about the same. But we felt that our car was safer in the heavily black — but geographically removed and well-to-do — area of Ladera Heights.

After all, Mrs. P.’s dad had parked his car in the heavily white Marina del Rey area when we lived there — and suffered a break-in that cost him an expensive telescope and lenses. How could this happen in a largely white area, John Derbyshire?!

So I feel confident that John Derbyshire would be quite wrong to warn his children away from Ladera Heights because it is one of those “heavily black neighborhoods.”

I could make similar points about many of Derbyshire’s other silly arguments. Years ago, my wife and I attended an enrobing of a judge in Compton. He is white but his wife is black. The room was filled with black people. We thus ran afoul of Derbyshire’s advice to his kids, both to “[a]void concentrations of blacks not all known to you personally” and not to “attend events likely to draw a lot of blacks.” Had someone suggested to me that the room was unsafe because it was filled with unknown black people, I would have judged that person insanely racist.

Ultimately, this is how I feel about Derbyshire’s piece. It is, in my opinion, simply inaccurate in ways that stem from his being (in my opinion) a sheltered white dude who hasn’t really been around that many blacks. (And the ones he has surrounded himself with might reasonably suspect they have been chosen to serve the insulting role of an “amulet.”) And so I don’t think we should see him as a fearless guy speaking unpleasant truths. I think we should see him as a clueless guy who made some dumb statements that make him look pretty racist. If National Review doesn’t want to associate with him any more, I can understand that.

I would feel differently if I thought Derbyshire were primarily speaking hard truths. But instead I believe he was mostly speaking in lazy and largely false stereotypes. I don’t feel like defending that, and it doesn’t surprise me in the slightest that National Review doesn’t either.

227 Responses to “The Obligatory John Derbyshire Post”

  1. Racists

    Patterico (feda6b)

  2. I’m so glad to read this here. Thanks, Patterico. And Happy Easter.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  3. I was wondering if you would take notice of what Derbyshire had written and am thankful you did. Thanks for your insight.

    Colonel Haiku (4eb2ae)

  4. Yeah its too bad Reginald Denny couldn’t find a truck route thru Ladera Heights-tough luck for him.

    Pinandpuller (9b331d)

  5. The [Musim] court reporter said: “Well, you know who supports him. It’s those Jews!”

    I looked at her with a smile and said: “Oh, come on. We’re not all that bad!”

    She looked back at me, a little embarrassed, and said: “Oh, I wasn’t thinking about you. To me, you’re just one of us!”

    I said: “I take that as a compliment.” And I did.

    Is that not an anti-semitic remark? And is that not a Jew pandering to an anti-Jewish bigot?

    Also, I think you deliberately took everything Derby said at face value instead of noting that his purpose was to mock other’s PC bigotry.

    Mike (4ca6e6)

  6. Is that not an anti-semitic remark? And is that not a Jew pandering to an anti-Jewish bigot?

    Well. I think I was gently chiding her for a touch of prejudice, even as I took it as a compliment that I fit in well enough in her world that she thought of me as “one of them.”

    Pandering would have been to say nothing, or to agree. Instead I teased her a bit. I’m comfortable with what I said. You can consider it pandering if you like, but I don’t.

    Also, I think you deliberately took everything Derby said at face value instead of noting that his purpose was to mock other’s PC bigotry.

    You and I have exchanged emails about this and I understand you see his piece as “satirical” in nature. I do only in the mildest and least meaningful way. I see him as mocking black parents’ advice to their kids to look out for that awful racist world. But this piece was a far cry from the Onion, and Derb’s links (yeah, not only did I read the piece, I also followed the links) made it clear he was making a serious point. To label it all “satire” as if it was not serious at all is (I think) to misunderstand his point.

    To accuse me of “deliberately” misunderstanding his point is unfair and wrong.

    Patterico (feda6b)

  7. All of your examples are purely anecdotal. The facts speak for themselves and point clearly to a large criminal underclass of black people. Just because you’ve been safe so far doesn’t mean you’re not taking elevated risks. Someone who tans all day in the sun might consider advice to cover up rather silly, that is, until they develop skin cancer.

    David (500920)

  8. Anecdotes are not data, as I’m sure you understand.

    Hey, I too have had plenty of pleasant, civil encounters with pleasant, civil black folks. But I also grew up in a crime-ridden city, and I noticed who did what. And noticed. And noticed. And noticed. And noticed. And noticed. And noticed.

    Well that’s also anecdotal, you might counter. I’d suggest there’s a hierarchy: anecdote — pattern recognition — mass data. And I’d say two out of those three favor Derb’s view.

    You don’t make sane policy based on anecdotes. And you don’t raise children who will survive to adulthood that way either.

    d. in c. (ac417f)

  9. All of your examples are purely anecdotal. The facts speak for themselves and point clearly to a large criminal underclass of black people. Just because you’ve been safe so far doesn’t mean you’re not taking elevated risks. Someone who tans all day in the sun might consider advice to cover up rather silly, that is, until they develop skin cancer.

    My own experiences are self-evidently anecdotal and do not pretend to be otherwise. I also cheerfully admit that I feel less safe in Watts and Compton than in Rancho Palos Verdes.

    But when you speak of “a large criminal underclass of black people” I’m dubious as to your facts and your point. Do black people commit crimes out of proportion to their percentage of the population? Do Latinos? I believe the studies show that the answer is yes, and to deny this would be to deny the facts out of a subservience to political correctness. But if these sad statistics are true, then the question is: why? And I don’t think the answer to that question is obvious. Is it due to genetics? Or is there a history of prejudice that relates to and (at least in part) causes those groups to be in the economic underclass — which directly relates to their commission of crimes? I suggest the answer lies not in genetics but in a combination of a history of prejudice and a culture of antisocial behavior — and I believe the latter may result largely if not entirely from the former.

    There is a difference between acknowledging hard truths and going out of one’s way to find racial explanations for everything.

    How do you guys feel about Derb’s suggestion that we all find black people to befriend as an “amulet” against charges of racism? Now who could argue with that??

    Patterico (feda6b)

  10. You don’t make sane policy based on anecdotes. And you don’t raise children who will survive to adulthood that way either.

    Nor is it necessary to indoctrinate children in the dangers of large groups of black people, as Derbyshire apparently does, to insure that they live to the age of majority.

    I teach my children to judge people by the content of their character and not by the color of their skin, and I do not believe I am endangering their lives by doing so. If they happen upon a mob of lawless thugs, they will hopefully know enough to avoid that mob regardless of the predominant color of the mob’s skin.

    Patterico (feda6b)

  11. “How do you guys feel about (the “amulet” suggestion)?”

    Well it’s disgusting of course. But then again we live in a disgusting society; and if we continue down the road of Newspeak and Ingsoc and the Memory Hole and the Ministry of Truth without resisting it, things will become more disgusting still. Eventually cannibalism will become a practical matter that you just have to shrug and get along with.

    So the time to say No Mas to a culture of lies would be, to my mind, um, now.

    d. in c. (ac417f)

  12. How did I ever survive that enrobing?!

    Patterico (feda6b)

  13. d. in c.:

    Again (and I have to go to bed now) I am not arguing for a rejection of facts in favor of political correctness. If Derbyshire had simply observed, for example, that certain demographics have a higher crime rate than others, and had facts to support his arguments, how could that be controversial to a fair-minded person?

    Granted, the left would still screech about it. But I would be backing him up.

    The point of my post is: that is not all that is going on here. And I fear that people will get so caught up in defending his Right to Speak the Truth on a tiny part of what he said that they will lose sight of the sheer offensiveness and inaccuracy that shines through in so much of his article.

    That is why I ask the amulet question. You can’t shrug that off. It goes to the heart of what I find offensive about the whole column. The whole notion that well-adjusted blacks are this rare commodity that we all seek out but is so difficult to find is . . . bizarre, and yes, racially prejudiced.

    Try traveling through Watts and Compton sometime. There are a hell of a lot of decent and law-abiding people there. Who are put off by all the drug dealing and lawlessness that pervades too much of their community.

    So yeah, those communities are relatively less safe. Sure. But to say you gotta watch out for any situation becoming “swamped with blacks” is, again, just plain offensive and wrong.

    Patterico (feda6b)

  14. “judge… content… character… not… color… skin”

    Well that’s admirable. But in my rather extensive experience, a stranger whom I’ve only seen for the first time moments ago, will frequently reveal the content of his character by stalking me, or by cursing and threatening me for no (logical) reason, or by robbing me at knife-point. These mysterious strangers uniformly share certain characteristics: somehow they’re never middle-aged female Filipino nurses or elderly Swedish bicycle enthusiasts. Funny how that works.

    Sorry, but in such situations I don’t have the time to conduct an interview and ask for letters of recommendation to determine the content of a stranger’s character, and I’m still alive. But I’ve known people who sadly, aren’t.

    d. in c. (ac417f)

  15. You didn’t link to the full piece but only o part 2. Could you link to both parts?

    The piece is set up as a version of “the Talk” that black people are supposed to give to their children “the talk” is a concept which dates from the 1950s and earlier in the south)

    yes, sometimes black people are suspicious of people of other races.

    Saying they should be suspicious is exactly what prompted this.

    And here is a takeoff of the John Derbyshire article!

    http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/04/the-talk-what-parents-tell-their-children-about-john-derbyshire/255578/

    Sammy Finkelman (a64d54)

  16. Whatever that “talk” about whites is, it is, especially since the 1960s, far more inaccurate than anything John Derbyshire wrote.

    One of the things here about this John Derbyshire piece though, is that it doesn’t set itself up as a parody. (Although item 10i doesn’t make any sense at all except as parody.)

    I don’t think he is lazy – he’s just not experienced enough and not insightful enough.
    But few people have really, really good sociological understanding, so how much should really be expected of John Derbyshire? It’s not like there’s clear good explanatory thinking anywhere.

    He seems to have given this some thought, [*] although he isn’t winding up with a better conclusion.

    [*] For instance he doesn’t say don’t vote for any black politicians, but he says give more careful scrutiny to an evaluation of his character than you would for an (otherwise unknown) white politician. You can’t say this is primitive, lazy racism. You might even say this yourself.

    Another example: He think there are significant number of blacks ferociously hostile to whites. But he pegs that at 5%. Although he thinks they can make about half of the rest go along with them.

    I checked the reference where he says he nearly got shot. His name is not mentioned there, so you have to assume things to make that make sense and then you have to wonder how close was he to the gunfire. But I wouldn’t assume any insincerity here, just bad, incomplete writing. Of course it could also be indicative of bad thinking, or reaching for a point that doesn’t apply to him, if he really wasn’t that close.

    Overall, it is sincere, maybe pushing things a bit in reaction to an anti-white “talk,” and unfortunately, as part of his thinking, he seems to have absorbed some ideas, like the idea of there being a prevalence of “Black Muslim” type hatred against whites among ordinary blacks, and the idea of blacks being, really, really stupider than whites.

    He shouldn’t be blamed for not knowing about some heavily black neighborhoods that don’t fit the pattern. How much does any one person know?

    Sammy Finkelman (a64d54)

  17. Now some of the things he says are really wrong, not just factually, but morally.

    That thing about friends is really awful, but it also sounds like something only an intellectual would be concerned about. (It also wouldn’t work, of course)

    It sounds like something Whittaker Chambers wrote about what Communists did. People shouldn’t live their lives where everything has an ulterior motive. He’s not even saying that black friends would help guide you as to what to worry about and what not.

    The most mysterious thing about this list is about not being a Good Samaritan. That probably comes from interpreting black on white crime as racial hostility. Otherwise, unless there was a (nationwide black) gang that made a habit of robbing people who stopped to help stalled cars, this wouldn’t make any sense. The story he links has to do with someone interfering in a domestic violence incident. He’s picking irrelevant things to link to.

    Sammy Finkelman (a64d54)

  18. He seems to think there’s such a shortage of decent black people it’s causing problems!! although it’s not clear why that should cause special problems, except that he thinks they wind up in non-civil service jobs that interact with the public [Item 14] leaving clerical type civil service positions to be filled with sullen, uncaring, uneducated and unintelligent blacks. [Item 12]

    Well, actually the only factors he mentions are supposed malice and a supposed cognitive deficit. (Blacks have to be at places like the DMV, he thinks, because of affirmative action, but all the good and competent ones have been sucked up by other employers, and since nobody is sucking away all the good whites, the white faces are the ones to get in line for.)

    I think he’s mixing up what Thomas Sowell, I think, wrote about mismatching college admissions, with the idea of there being a mismatch in hiring (in the case of blacks) for government jobs.

    These are not the best links, but here’s two that deal with Thomas Sowell and college admissions mismatching:

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/881694/posts

    http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2008/05/27/mascot_politics/page/full/

    Various empirical studies have indicated that blacks succeed best at institutions where there is little or no difference between their qualifications and the qualifications of the other students around them.

    This is not rocket science but it is amazing how much effort and cleverness have gone into denying the obvious.

    A study by Professor Richard Sander of the UCLA law school suggests that there may be fewer black lawyers as a result of “affirmative action” admissions to law schools that are a mismatch for the individuals admitted.

    Note: While I think people actually benefit by exposed to college work they cannot do, this is only so if they later transfer to other colleges.

    Sammy Finkelman (a64d54)

  19. Sorry, but in such situations I don’t have the time to conduct an interview and ask for letters of recommendation to determine the content of a stranger’s character, and I’m still alive. But I’ve known people who sadly, aren’t.
    Comment by d. in c. — 4/9/2012 @ 1:23 am

    – You have personally known at least two white people that were murdered by black people? Do tell.

    Icy (ce8ca9)

  20. He shouldn’t be blamed for not knowing about some heavily black neighborhoods that don’t fit the pattern. How much does any one person know?

    – Sammy F. is like a militant people-pleasing Dalek:
    “E-quiv-o-cate! E-quiv-o-cate!!!”

    Icy (ce8ca9)

  21. I spend a great deal of time in Chicago’s south and west sides and have for a number of years. And to give you some flavor for what I do, I had a building to inspect at 4023 W. Wilcox one morning. That night 2 cops were shot in the head at 4025 Wilcox. You tell me if you think that is a tough area or not.

    I am not black although I am not white either, I am mixed race (Mexican, Indian & White which probably helps me fit in). While I found Derbyshire’s piece sad, I think he writes more out of ignorance then any special insight. Bottom line is that you have to take people for what they are: either they are good, bad or somewhere in between regardless of color or race or income level. I have met a lot of great people in black areas and yes some assholes too. It goes with the territory. What is really sad is that Derbyshire is teaching this to his kids. There are a great many problems in the black community and the JJ Jackson’s and Sharpton’s of the world don’t help. Neither does Derbyshire’s piece, although if it does cause some out there to re-examine their beliefs then maybe some good will come out of it.

    Ipso Fatso (7434b9)

  22. Sharing just one specific point here since you shared your personal stories about parking your cars in “a Black neighborhood” and referring to higher crime in your Marina neighborhood:

    While I agree with you that Derbyshire’s post was rather awful, the point about your car being safer in Ladera Heights vs. left idle in the Marina and the higher crime in the “white neighborhoods” versus the “black” ones…sorry to have to point out that THOSE CREATING THE CRIMES against property originate in mostly the inland/Black/Hispanic neighborhoods and descend upon “the white neighborhoods” such as the Marina because that’s where the property is that they seek to steal. Cars, homes, other real estate in “white neighborhoods” are the same to thieves (most of whom originate in-land in the L.A. area, far more likely to be Black or Hispanic than “White”) as money in a bank to bank robber: that’s where the goods are — so the perpetrators of crimes “immigrate” if you will to White neighborhoods (and then leave after their crimes are committed).

    I am well familiar with the L.A. area (also surrounding counties with exception of Riverside) and *i* would not go alone into certain neighborhoods that are well known as “Black” or “Hispanic” ones, and for safety reasons : a white person IS a target for a variety of crimes and in certain neighborhoods, will remain unprotected and without available witnesses when attacked or robbed or worse.

    Though overall I share in your views.

    Visitor (8b54d3)

  23. But I took much of what Derbyshire wrote to be somewhat sarcastic, if not a sort of “in-kind” retort to illustrate the Black Racism about which he was motivated to write what he wrote: “the Black lecture” described about how Blacks were to “act” when among White people, stopped by law enforcement, etc. with a lot of racism used to explain why — so Derbyshire opted to describe that scenario from “a White person’s perspective.”

    The part of what Derbyshire wrote that I *did* consider offensive, difficult to read with any seriousness, was that same portion you mentioned here, the “Black people to befriend and why” areas. Came off very insulting to anyone’s humanity. But I also read there to what degree Derbyshire has experienced genuine stress if not insult himself and upon that his views are formed. Chicken or the egg, which came first.

    Visitor (8b54d3)

  24. If I ever read John Derbyshire, I don’t remember, but then I don’t read National Review. I did not recognize his name when I ran across this story. I did live at the corner of Lake Shore Drive and Sheridan Road, with a statue of General Sheridan demarcating it. He’s the guy who said “The only good Indian is a black Indian”. While his Navajo scouts were helping him hunt Comanches and Apaches. Can’t help prejudice.

    Now, when it comes to Germans, Marius is my hero. Too bad he didn’t finish the job. But then, neither did Truman, Stalin, and Churchill. And I just cannot find anything good to say about gypsies.

    nk (52d02a)

  25. Alright, I’m an idiot. General Sheridan did not say “black Indian”. He said “dead Indian”.

    nk (52d02a)

  26. Curse you, Freud.

    nk (52d02a)

  27. I take comfort that in the scheme of things, Derbyshire is a like a fly landing on a rock. Consequential to the fly, not to the rock.

    nk (52d02a)

  28. “… sometimes black people are suspicious of people of other races. Sometimes black people are criminals. But these generalizations are also true of whites.”

    An ‘insight’ from a lawyer who don’t do no steenking statistics.

    Fred Z (cd57b8)

  29. sorry to have to point out that THOSE CREATING THE CRIMES against property originate in mostly the inland/Black/Hispanic neighborhoods and descend upon “the white neighborhoods” such as the Marina because that’s where the property is that they seek to steal. Cars, homes, other real estate in “white neighborhoods” are the same to thieves (most of whom originate in-land in the L.A. area, far more likely to be Black or Hispanic than “White”) as money in a bank to bank robber: that’s where the goods are — so the perpetrators of crimes “immigrate” if you will to White neighborhoods (and then leave after their crimes are committed).

    No Doubt that has some merit – but counter-sweeping with the same wide brush – meth, hell’s angels, white supremes, is a huge problem and mostly if not totally white and is infinitely more violent. In Tennessee they cannot get officers to raid methlabs anymore, In Texas its a total mess, In Arizona all that shooting on the border stuff was more due to meth than black property crimes or illegal immigration.

    I think the point Pat was majing is that there are people in difficult areas that are worth our very best efforts to save. Despite the Derbs – and despite their color.

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  30. Excellent column.

    Y-not (e7d1c7)

  31. I have added the following passage to the post:

    And if Derbyshire had wanted to write a column about the interface between racial stereotypes and the occasional need citizens have to make snap judgments for their own safety, he could have written a provocative yet defensible column on that admittedly rather well-worn concept. For example, I can see telling my children: “if a situation feels dangerous, react accordingly, and don’t worry if it makes you look or feel like a racist. We all have built in danger detectors, and you don’t want to ignore yours for reasons of political correctness.”

    But Derbyshire went much further than that.

    I think this passage is consistent with the spirit of my post, but addresses the concern raised by a couple of commenters.

    Patterico (feda6b)

  32. Granted, that was a stupid, and frankly borderline obscene column, but with CLT, and Sharpton and Phleger become the spinners of the narrative, what is one to think,

    narciso (7dad0c)

  33. ghetto is any neighborhood where two consecutive houses have bars on the windows I think

    LA has ghetto out the wing wang

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  34. The squirt is an all-out extrovert, hugging waitresses, fellow customers, anyone who smiles an talks amiably with a parent in her orbit.

    Its a wonderful gift, especially for a stick-up-his-butt introvert, to see. We’ve started with the “don’t talk to strangers” cautions but know it’s a tight-rope. We cannot blow our credibility in the process of making her aware of dangers.

    Right now the only people trusted implicitly are given to be nurses, police in the event of trouble. The rest of you need some reason to be speaking to her.

    She’s already got some Spanish, French and Japanese vocabulary. She already rubs shoulders with kids of all colors, and lower to upper middle class status.

    She’ll be obliged to acquire a few belts in Shorin Ryu, to fire an assorment of guns, to keep the doors locked where ever we are, and to steer clear of the rough parts of towns and to leave promptly failing that effort.

    Her friends will be vetted and some associations discouraged, some prohibited.

    People have some intrinsic value, but she needs to be able to take them, or leave them alone.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  35. I enjoyed this post. I had never read about the schoolkids in Compton.

    I believe a greater proportional rate of crime from blacks is largely due to the antisocial culture that Patterico relates to a history of prejudice blacks have experienced. I’m glad he phrased it this way because it distills a complicated issue to something helpful. Thus, people who continue to offer prejudice or even trump up prejudice (IE Al Sharpton) are feeding the problem.

    Derbyshire is a brilliant man and I’m sure there was some clever BS explanation for his column, but I do not think it was really all that satirical. I think he was sincere about how we should leave events that are flooded with blacks. If this was satire, what exactly was it mocking? Not the racist notion presented. I give Derbyshire too much credit to assume he is that bad at satire.

    Anyway, I’m not here to judge the guy. I’m sorry he lost his National Review gig.

    We have a problem with political correctness, and it’s funny to see that mocked often. However, that’s because political correctness is usually on overkill mode. It’s not because there’s no legitimate degree of political correctness. It’s too bad this topic is a bit of a minefield.

    Dustin (330eed)

  36. The Atlantic starting? with Sullivan, seems to entertaining errant nonsense on a consistent basis

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/04/conservative-confusion-over-obama-and-social-darwinism/255560/

    narciso (7dad0c)

  37. thats a nice list of your “visits” as a racial tourist to black neighborhoods … try living in one for several years and you’ll realize that when someone says you are “one of us” you’ll realize that you have just been complemented by a racist …

    take the black “talk”, substitute black for white and see if what you think of the talk then …

    JeffC (488234)

  38. I think National Review really a lot overestimates the street value of their precious oxygen

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  39. “we should leave events that are flooded with blacks”

    At the of being banninated by all my friends, this much is true:

    One of the most dangerous places to be in my city is where crowds of boisterous black youth gather.
    http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/rtd-opinion/2011/oct/14/tdopin01-cycle-of-violence-ar-1382243/

    The “Greekfest” labor day gathering in Virginia Beach really got out of hand and was to be avoided. There were riots in ’89 as police attempted to keep order. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Virginia_Beach

    and I don’t know what to do about that advice of Derbyshires. It’s true enough where I live that I don’t think its fair to call it an outrage.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  40. JeffC:

    I have added this line to the post:

    So while I was gently chiding her for her sweeping generalization about us “white males,” I did take it as a compliment that I fit in well enough in her world that she thought of me as “one of them.”

    I thought it was evident from the post that I was taking her to task a little, but maybe not. As I said to Mike K above, if I had meant to pander I wouldn’t have responded to her “white males” comment.

    Patterico (feda6b)

  41. I think that John Derbyshire has, for the past few years (well a couple of decades) seemingly defined himself as the self-appointed Speaker of Uncomfortable Truths™ because of how much he loathes PCism. Most of us do loath PC nonsense, but few of us take it as far as Derbyshire.

    Now, I have met Derbyshire, and I met him in a place with a high concentration of people of African-American descent (the New Orleans Airport). He acted fine and unconcerned; I was raised around racist people, and there was none of that in Derbyshire.

    What is happening now is that folks are doing what Derbyshire always appeared to inexplicably crave: hate him for what he has said/written or vigorous defend his right to say anything. I think that this contraryophile approach is one of his own self-definitions (after all, he recently wrote a book titled “We Are Doomed”).

    He spoke his piece. Given the state of the nation regarding race relations, I was not surprised by National Review’s response. Nor do I think it was wise of Derbyshire to stir up this topic, or embroil Republican politics in the same at this point (it doesn’t help in the general election, when the Left is slavering to depict all Republicans as racists). That is just my opinion…but why would he give Obama’s supporters more ammunition?

    What is ironic here is how some people don’t like Patterico relating his own experiences, but were defending Derbyshire’s? These are both their experiences, and don’t think for a second that Derbyshire would not be critical of Patterico’s description of experiences.

    Short form: for good or for ill, John Derbyshire was trying to stir up things with his column. That is what he does, and always has. Right or wrong, fair or unfair…these are all discussions that occur in the aftermath, historically, of Derbyshire going “anti-PC.”

    There is one more thing. It is very clear from prior columns by Derbyshire that has has been diagnosed with a leukemia-type form of cancer, and is currently under chemotherapy. By his own description, Derbyshire is finding that the chemotherapy clouds his thinking, slows him down.

    So…a fellow who supports his family by writing writes a column he knows will embarrass a magazine for which he writes? I don’t know his financial situation, but I hope he is okay.

    And as I have written to several of the posters here, wait until the Left “gets” Derbyshire’s health situation: there will be nasty hateful tweets and e-mails and posts about the man and his current health struggle. Patterico doesn’t agree with Derbyshire’s column, but I know that Patterico will defend personal attacks on a person’s health or reputation.

    Final note: as I mentioned before, I have met John Derbyshire socially, and my wife knows him fairly well (regarding mathematics). In person, I have never heard him say a single controversial thing (other than disliking the policies of the current adminstration…but even then, he (i) disliked GWB’s polices, and (ii) never mentioned race to me at all). I didn’t bring up anything controversial, of course. And regarding race, Derbyshire is married to a Chinese woman and has two children with her; he is aware of prejudice in America and overseas (and Asia has some pretty serious racist history). Which takes us back to his self-view as a Contrarian.

    Sorry for the long screed. I have read about this whole matter with sadness. As I have discussed with Patterico, I was born in Compton and raised in North Long Beach, so I know a great deal about the complex terrain of race relations in that area on a personal level.

    Simon Jester (0bd78b)

  42. At the of being banninated by all my friends, this much is true:

    I disagree with you, but it’s good for honest and sober adults to discuss their different views on it.

    I think there are events which a prudent person should leave, but just because a lot of blacks show up? It might be a baptism or a funeral or an easter egg hunt. On the other hand, it might be some kind of riot. I think the latter kind of event should be avoided regardless of the racial proportion.

    I also read somewhere that whites are far more likely to be killed by other whites than they are by blacks. I think there’s a misconception about safety out there.

    Dustin (330eed)

  43. I didn’t know Derbyshire was getting chemo. I was wondering what could account for a lack of circumspection with regard to such a column.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  44. I, too, find that Derbyshire displays an extreme cynicism in life in general and a destructive discussion trying to address some harsh realities. If he means his writing to be satire, he fails to make that clear to most of us. As mentioned by several people, with his “amulet” comment I don’t think I would want him as a friend even if I matched his race, class, and social background. I don’t want as friends people who see others as tools in their manipulation of life.

    But I must say, when the majority of the media is feeding the fear I would not want to leave Derbyshire alone in being reprimanded. We have been “treated” so many times with the idea that there are white people and gangs of white people eager to do harm to blacks for the only reason that they were black, that it seems that blacks have a reason to be hostile to whites. If blacks are hostile to whites because they have reason to be hostile to whites, then it would make sense for whites to be suspicious of blacks.

    And so the cycle continues. One gets a “colorblind” society by promoting a “colorblind” society, looking at the content of one’s character as has been said. Law is not based on personal vengeance, law is based on the good of all involved in a particular action and for society as a whole.

    Over the weekend there was a number of shootings in Oklahoma. What is the first thing we hear? “All of the victims are black and ‘the shooter’ is white”. Immediately characterized as a racial incident proving that whitey is out to kill blacks, blacks need to be aware, whites should be afraid.

    It is reasoning like that which will keep people killing each other until the end. Whether it is black and white, Jew and Arab, white speaking one language and white speaking another, black living in this region and black living on the other side of the mountain or river.

    I too have been the only white at a funeral, or in the minority of primary English speakers at some event or walking on a street. Some neighborhoods are more dangerous than others; but some of those are in white neighborhoods as well.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  45. i will say simply this.

    NRO is a company with a mission: to push conservative values.

    Derb has alot of qualities, but his unbelievable racism had started to harm that mission.

    This is different than, say, a janitor who gets fired from his job because at night he writes a political blog. This isn’t about a guy who got fired for unrelated speech, but a guy whose job it was to speak, who harmed his brand and threatened to taint the brand of the “speech” company he worked for for.

    (Okay, its press not speech, but you get the idea.)

    And that is the distinction. So i support and indeed applaud their decision.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  46. Kinda think Derbyshire’s biggest shortcoming is he’s a Brit-see Andrew Sullivan.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  47. Except he didn’t write it on their blog, this was the same Rich Lowry who credited Sharpton, for a situation, that turned out to be more ‘nuanced’

    narciso (7dad0c)

  48. NRO is a company with a mission: to push conservative values.

    Derb has alot of qualities, but his unbelievable racism had started to harm that mission.

    he started his column very explicitly in the Trayvon® context and he accidentally got carried away and let it slosh out of that pot to where it got some mucky bits on National Review’s carpet… but when you remember that Mr. Derbyderb wrote his piece in response to all the outrageous race pimpings we’ve seen from our Today Show friends and our desperate and hateful president and motley others, it’s not hard to divine Mr. Derbyderb’s intent.

    Which is not to say he didn’t fail on several levels.

    But I really think you’d be very hard-pressed to find a National Review staffer what substantively disagrees with the general jist of what Mr. Derbyderb is saying, which is that I don’t care what race you are, we have to teach kids that they need to be careful about wandering about willy nilly especially in places where they look like they don’t belong.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  49. You and I exchanged e-mails about this topic yesterday. NRO was cowardly in their reaction and, from comments I have seen in several sites, they will suffer for it. The criticisms of his “amulet ” comment misses that this is obviously satire. Most of his points are valid and supported by excellent data.

    I recounted to you my own experiences with black medical students. I didn’t mention that my sister and I were raised by a black nursemaid who converted to Catholic because we were and who lived long enough (95) to see and hold my youngest daughter (and all the other four). The shameful run for cover by Lowry and NRO will not be forgotten.

    Until American blacks get over their sense of grievance, their progress will be slow. I have sent you several examples. It is my belief that foreign born blacks, even those from poor and difficult circumstance, succeed while native born who have not shed their racist belief that the “white man” is the cause of their troubles repeatedly fail.

    Mike K (326cba)

  50. I have no statistics to hand about who murders whom.

    But I would guess that its true a white person is more likely to be dispatched by a white person, but simply because you are more likely to be murdered by a family member or someone you know, in general, and because there are simply many more white people to murder one.

    I think it’s too dangerous to talk about and so I won’t.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  51. I used to visit NRO for Denis Boyles’ Continental anecdotes but he’s long gone.

    Nowadays, I fatigue being bludgeoned by the raw talent of Steyn. He could use an editor.

    Otherwise no interest in NRO.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  52. Which is not to say he didn’t fail on several levels.

    for example it seems far more significant to me that not a single female person has ever wonned a Fields Medal than about how nobody black has won one yet… and I would think that would jump out at Mr. Derb as well with his grasp of statistics and all

    which led me to an interesting (kinda) piece

    On average, there are three Fields winners per award year, so that the ratio of competitors to slots, N /NS is approximately 7 x 108. From this we estimate the minimum mathematical ability of Fields Medalists to be an incredible 5.8 SD greater than the male population mean. Approximately 1.3 percent of the Medalists will be women. Since the prize is conferred quadrennially, we expect a female Fields Medalist to emerge approximately once every 103 years, that is, every 4/[3(0.013)] years. None has yet surfaced.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  53. Like math is more important than talking. hmmph.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  54. If you had ever met Derbyshire’s wife, you would know why he wasn’t interested in promoting your analysis, Mr. Feet.

    She is a nice lady, actually. But I think he baffles her, even after twenty years of marriage.

    Heck, I baffle my wife and we were raised in the same culture.

    Simon Jester (0bd78b)

  55. she is undoubtedly formidable Mr. Jester but where I was going with the Fields thing was more to point out how outrageous it would be for these math jocks to publish a paper speculating on the statistical probablilities of a black person ever winning a shiny Fields Medal for their own

    but I wanted to leave that thread hanging for someone else to tug on

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  56. *probabilitahs* I mean

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  57. I once heard it said, Mr. Feet, that a mathematician can easily solve population problems by suggesting every other person get shot.

    By which I mean that numbers are shiny and fit well together, and are not all messy like human beings.

    Since my wife is a mathematician, I have to say that in a whisper. I hope you understand.

    And yes, we have a crazee PC culture.

    Simon Jester (0bd78b)

  58. ___________________________________________

    So don’t tell me that these areas are lost. They aren’t. You look out at a classroom of 10-year-olds and tell me that they aren’t worth protecting.

    But no matter how dysfunctional and chaotic such areas are or become, a large majority of their populace, without fail, vote for the same cast of characters, the same dyed-in-the-wool liberals/Democrats. It’s hard to have optimism for a community or society when too many of the people in such areas are their own worst enemy and blindly follow the same politicians, the same policies.

    Mark (411533)

  59. a large majority of their populace, without fail, vote for the same cast of characters,

    That is a huge problem. It’s a vicious circle. They are fed more and more information about how aggrieved they are and how they need the things democrats will give them. And this feeds the culture that generates a lot of the problems and dependency.

    It’s far from a black/white issue at this point. This is the model for every demographic.

    Dustin (330eed)

  60. But I would guess that its true a white person is more likely to be dispatched by a white person, but simply because you are more likely to be murdered by a family member or someone you know, in general, and because there are simply many more white people to murder one.

    I think it’s too dangerous to talk about and so I won’t.

    Comment by SarahW —

    I respect your choice not to dig into this topic. That’s understandable. But I wanted to note I think you’re probably right about the reason whites are more likely to be killed by whites. It’s got nothing to do with race. It’s just that most folks are polarized and that’s reflected in many statistics. The people who impact your life are likely to be the people who you’re around.

    —–

    I’m surprised anyone would be upset with NRO over this. Their comment about Derbyshire was gracious. It’s OK for them to part ways with him.

    Dustin (330eed)

  61. 59. The capacity of the human cranium started shrinking like 10,000 years ago.

    Just looking around, the entire species is lost, IMHO. Gene rot.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  62. _______________________________________________

    First of all, Los Angeles has a very well-to-do neighborhood called Ladera Heights which is a “heavily black neighborhood.”

    That part of Los Angeles was predominantly white back in the early 1960s. When the Watts Riots occurred in 1965, the area soon became rapidly integrated, as black families started moving in, eventually becoming segregated all over again. But by the late 1960s predominantly black instead of white. So-called blockbusting — in which devious real-estate agents ramped up alarm in white homeowners at the sight of a new black resident — played upon the dynamics of people voting with their feet and moving van.

    Almost all the public schools in that part of LA went downhill, and remain as marginal today as ever before. Affluent residents in that part of town, who are black, started sending their kids to private or Catholic schools pretty much from around the late 1960s until today.

    The fact that areas like Ladera Heights and Baldwin Hills in general have remained over 90% black for over 40 years, in spite of true changes in society’s racial attitudes and legal policies — with LA’s westside being as staunchly liberal and comparatively all-white as ever before — has long struck me as a revealing look into the two-faced nature of both liberal blacks and whites. Or the epitome of “limousine liberalism.”

    Mark (411533)

  63. Something about Derbyshire always rubbed me the wrong way. It was probably the fact that he’s a limey lecturing Americans about America. Always irritated me.

    I’ve always felt that socioeconomic factors were much more of a guide towards maintaining personal safety than racial factors. To wit – I’ve been in middle class neighborhoods that are mostly black where I felt perfectly safe and poor, rundown areas that are pure white trash where I’ve been really eager to get the hell away. I avoid crowds of rough, dangerous looking young men of any and all races and ethnicities.

    And Sarah, since you appear to be a Richmonder like I am, if race is the best indicator of danger and criminality, why is Richmond much safer today than it was two decades ago when our murder rate was nearly the worst in the nation? Richmond is still a majority-black city, and yet neighborhoods like Jackson Ward and even Church Hill feel much safer now that I’ve moved back than they did when I was growing up and we West End white kids knew better than to venture too far from western Henrico.

    It’s funny you linked an article mentioning Pach Torres – I didn’t know him but I had friends who were classmates with him at Trinity Episcopal, and as tragic as that was it only was big news because it was a suburban kid as opposed to the black kids whose deaths were much less newsworthy in those days of 150+ murders per year.

    [note: released from moderation. --Stashiu]

    radar (3a664a)

  64. Special prosecuter not sending Martin case to grand jury.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  65. _________________________________________________

    She looked back at me, a little embarrassed, and said: “Oh, I wasn’t thinking about you. To me, you’re just one of us!” I said: “I take that as a compliment.” And I did.

    Is that a subtle version of the “Stockholm Syndrome”?

    Whatever it is, racial dynamics — or dynamics based on the way people LOOK and not on how they THINK — can become easily patronizing or, of course, simpleminded and polarizing. I guess that’s why I focus on whether the biases of liberalism or conservatism are most pronounced in a person or group of people.

    People’s ideology is far, far more revealing and telling to me than whether, for example, a black woman assumes anyone outside her clique or comfort zone is a dreadful rightwing Republican. And, in turn, sensing that her simpleminded liberalism is at the core of what makes either her so certainly so many of those around her oddly self-destructive or self-immobilized. Or very prone to various forms of socio-economic anomie or corruption.

    Mark (411533)

  66. Patterico:

    So, one day the judge and the court reporter were talking about that George W. Bush guy. (This was during the 2000 election season.) The court reporter said: “Well, you know who supports him. It’s those white males!”

    I looked at her with a smile and said: “Oh, come on. We’re not all that bad!”

    But didn’t you in fact support George W. Bush in that election?? (assuming your politics is about the same now)

    It sounds like that, instead of maybe defending George W. Bush from people prejudiced against him, you were separating yourself from him anxds his supporters – and it wasn’t even true. Or do I read this wrong?

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  67. In South Los Angeles, it’s not just blacks who are gangsters. It’s also Latinos and Samoans.

    Also Russians, who are white. One of them killed Bill Cosby’s son, Ennis. Although I don’t know that his killer precisely belonged to a gang.

    I have no idea where the off-ramp on Skirball Center Drive on Interstate 405 is in the Los Angele3s scheme of things.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  68. I looked at her with a smile and said: “Oh, come on. We’re not all that bad!”

    Because it’s not really that bad or extreme to support Bush (in fact, Bush won many elections so it’s actually downright normal), this is probably meant to come across as sarcasm.

    Dustin (330eed)

  69. I mean this as a serious question, not as a jab at this post or posts like it:

    Is not caring all that much about these events – the Trayvon Martin shooting, the Derbyshire op-ed, the fact that Ladera Heights is a well-to-do %90 black neighborhood – is not caring all that much about these things the same as not caring all that much about race issues?

    I don’t think it is, really, which makes me worry that I’m lacking some important empathetic capacity when it comes to this stuff. But New Mexico is ~42% Hispanic. If I postulated racial tension every time a white cop shot a Hispanic citizen in ABQ or a Hispanic cop shot a white citizen in ABQ, or a white citizen beat up or shot a Hispanic citizen in ABQ or vice versa, I would never have time to do anything but March For Racial Justice©. And I want to do other stuff.

    Do you think that the younger generations today care less about race than the older generations? I mean that as a serious question, too. I don’t know the answer to it.

    Leviticus (870be5)

  70. ____________________________________________

    you were separating yourself from him anxds his supporters

    That’s the way I interpreted it. Therefore my sense that he was displaying a form of “Stockholm Syndrome.” After all, most people do have a tendency to want to conform to the traits or idiosyncrasies of those who they’re hanging out with most of the time. To conform to members of their family, their friends, and, less so, neighbors, co-workers, acquaintances.

    That’s why I think all the knee-jerk leftism that prevails throughout black America is the Number One problem in that part of society, bar none.

    Mark (411533)

  71. Regarding white on white vs. black on white crime, keep in mind that while the raw numbers for white/white may be higher, the black/white numbers are substantially higher than the strict black/white population ratio. Furthermore, since much of America remains somewhat de facto segregated, the strong implication is that blacks are going out of their way to commit crimes against whites whom they would not otherwise randomly encounter in their own normal social setting. This is especially true of rape, where the numbers are off the charts.

    d. in c. (cae88c)

  72. But is the feeling of danger prompted by the color of the people — or by the economic despair and by the presence of a criminal element?

    The presence of a criminal element, but there’s a strong correlation between a black community (if it looks run down) and a criminal element. And even if not, people believe that and will continue to believe that for about 10-15 years more when and if it stops being true.

    What’s is not about, actually, is race per se.

    Even when people say it’s race, it’s not race.

    Even when people say that’s what they’re worried about is people of a certain race, it’s not so.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  73. _____________________________________________

    While it is true that South Los Angeles has a significant gang presence that makes parts of it feel unsafe for unarmed whites, the fact is that gangs come in all colors and nationalities

    Yes, that’s true. But it also sounds like a bit of the rationalization that people on the left are such big fans of. You know, where a person (Hi, Jesse Jackson!) will say that felons and troublemakers come in all shapes and colors. But then that same person saying — as Jesse Jackson himself publicly admitted awhile back — that he (or she) gets nervous when thinking the person walking behind him on a sidewalk is black instead of white.

    Mark (411533)

  74. Crime rates are not equally distributed between groups of people. They are also not equally distributed over time, or between one generation and the next generation.

    And what ethnic groups are associated with high levels of crime changes from time to time.

    Before the 1930s, the criminals used to be not black, but Irish. That’s why in the 1800s they called the place they rounded up criminals a “paddywagon” Now it’s almost all gone except for the Westies or in South Boston (Southie) and even there it’s gone.

    The great criminologist E. H. (Edwin) Suther;and had a simple explanation for differences in crime levels (although actually he was thinking of something else, mostly white collar crime.)

    It’s called “differential association”

    People have different friends. That’s all there is to it.

    Criminals on the loose make lots of friends, and their friends make friends

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  75. I went into the reason for how this correlation got started in comment number 117 in this post.

    http://patterico.com/2012/03/10/obama-hero-derrick-bell-we-need-to-appreciate-a-man-who-called-for-the-wholesale-slaughter-of-women-and-children-in-south-africa/

    The following sounds like horrible science fiction somebody could have written in 1928, but we all lived it. This is real.

    The rise of black criminality only began in the 1930s or 1940s. It could only happen, on the scale that it did, after the coming of racial segregation between whole neighborhoods, which began around and after World War I. This later made possible the existence of a different law enforcement environment,

    This was originally created by the Outfit in urban black neighborhoods throughout the United States during the 1930s and 1940s by bribing policemen and using their political influence, which became considerable, to appoint liberal judges, who didn’t believe in punishment, and otherwise arrange for lenient treatment of offenders, so that their customers could continue to steal to pay for their heroin in certain neighborhoods.

    Starting in the late 1950s and accelerating in the 1960s, the boundaries of the “bad neighborhoods” began to expand, and the sight of a black person on the street, became a “broken window” to beat all other “broken windows.” In some sections, it could be a different group. By this time, lax law enforcement was the standard.

    There were not enough resources to cope, plea bargaining became the rule, but the places with the lowest crime had the most enforcement and a career criminal had a much shorter half-life there.

    That’s still true.

    During the 1970s, the most crime ridden locations began to be depopulated, but crime just gobbled up more of the city. Starting in the late 1980s and especially during the first two thirds of the 1990s, the AIDS virus began to disable and kill IV-drug users, most intensively affecting New York City, the epicenter of the AIDS epidemic, and law enforcement was able to catch its breath, and the crime rate began to plummet, starting with, and most intensively affecting, New York City.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  76. People have trouble admitting a real difference in the number of bad people between groups of people, although they will readily admit a difference in the illegitimacy rate, which also involves free will, and which changes over time, and which it is pretty preposterous to propose is inherited.

    There is a difference, but it is related to recent history and a different law enforcement environment.

    The different law enforcement environment perpetuates itself.

    Money always becomes a factor. Government rarely spends extra money when there is a need to do it. I mean a lot of extra money like tripling the budget or more.

    Prosecutors don’t want to prosecute tough cases. With what they think are bad witnesses.

    The problem is through and through, so that the chance of effective prosecurtion is reduced in many ways. A dozen different things reduce the chances of a prosecution.

    Now….

    Crime does not expand indefinitely. It reaches a equilibrium level. But it is one with both very much crime and many people going to jail – eventually.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  77. Now if you subdivide a group, you will also find it is not the same between the sub-groups! And furthermore the same group will experience different results in different locations.

    Afro-Caribbeans have a relatively low crime participation rate in the United States, but a much higher rate in England.

    People’s ideas are so confused.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  78. SF: you were separating yourself from him anxds his supporters

    Comment by Mark — 4/9/2012 @ 9:27 am (70)

    Mark: That’s the way I interpreted it. Therefore my sense that he was displaying a form of “Stockholm Syndrome.”

    It’s not Stockholm Syndrome. He’s not actually agreeing with them.

    He’s just not telling them: “I’m one of those people who want to vote for Bush, and I don’t think he would be bad for the country.”

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  79. You look out at a classroom of 10-year-olds and tell me that they aren’t worth protecting.

    Yes, they are worth protecting, but taht requires a very massive budget increase.

    Not 5% Not 10% Not 15%

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  80. “Do you think that the younger generations today care less about race than the older generations?”
    Comment by Leviticus — 4/9/2012 @ 9:23 am

    I think yes, because there is less to care about. It is hard to take claims of racial oppression too seriously when we have a black President, black Republican candidates and black Justices on the Supreme Court. When I was young it was dangerous to one’s life and career to march for civil rights in the South. Compare what marchers then faced to the parties that demonstrations have become now. Before the War on Poverty the “talk” by black parents was likely to include admonitions that everything they did would reflect on all blacks that so they must set their bar higher, rather than making excuses for irresponsible behavior. I recommend the book “Black Like Me” if it is available. My mother gave me this when I was very young to help me understand bigotry and what was going on in the South then.

    The War on Poverty was a more effective and destructive assault on the black community than anything the Klan could have dreamed of.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  81. The politicians from taht area don’t want it though because

    1) People with a vested interest in high crime rates contribute to their campaigns, so, if anything, they are always complaining about the police.

    2) They themselves have a vested interest in high crime rates, because if it goes down:

    a) There will be more political activity and possible challengers.

    b) People of a different ethnicity will move it, risking their re-election maybe one day.

    c) There’s no downside, because if people living in the area they represent “vote with their feet” and move out, they are protected from losing their seats in redistricting by the 1982 amendments to the Voting Rights Act, which ensures that the boundaries of their districts will be expanded to capture people who have moved out.

    b)

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  82. Leviticus, the book is available. I just ordered a copy. It will be interesting to revisit it after 45 years or so. I still remember some parts vividly today.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  83. It is hard to take claims of racial oppression too seriously when we have a black President, black Republican candidates and black Justices on the Supreme Court. When I was young it was dangerous to one’s life and career to march for civil rights in the South.

    Insightful point. I recall trying to explain to a fellow student a few years ago that American had made amazing and good progress. The ‘fact’ that we hadn’t was something she couldn’t let go of.

    But you’re right, and I think embracing this progress would have made Obama a far greater president.

    Dustin (330eed)

  84. In the past racism was a national shame, now it is a political game. Racism is more acceptable today, socially and legally, than it was 40 years ago, it is the acceptable groups that have changed.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  85. It isn’t clear to me what good end is served by clutching one’s pearls, crying “Offensive! Racist!” and banishing Derb to the Outer Darkness simply for having the temerity to speak his mind. The fact that a writer can so easily lose his job for, um, writing, ought to disturb everyone here far more than the substance of what he wrote.

    If the editors of NR (or the commenters here for that matter) were so appalled by the published thought of one of their longtime associates, then their true moral (to say nothing of professional) obligation was to publish a round-table discussion examining the substance of Derb’s claims from many angles and refuting them where possible with facts and solid reasoning. Instead they shrieked and covered their ears, then chucked him into the piranha tank.

    The spectacle, and the precedent it sets, is monstrous.

    We cannot have a healthy or sane political culture if we cannot discuss our society honestly. Whether Derb is right or wrong, the plain fact is that many many Americans view many of his claims as simple common sense. Are they wrong? Well perhaps, but if so, the obligation is eternal: Prove it. (Not saying that’s the case with thid thread, many commenters here have contributed keen insights; I mean it about our general political culture).

    The overall political tone in this country, to my ears, is one of continual borderline hysteria. The cure for that, as Freud claimed, is the Talking Cure.

    But it doesn’t work unless you’re committed to talking about Everything.

    d. in c. (17012e)

  86. _____________________________________________

    It’s not Stockholm Syndrome. He’s not actually agreeing with them.

    Maybe it’s a matter of semantics, Sammy. I do detect in Patterico — based on his description — a sense of go-along-to-get-along camaraderie, which most of us will be guilty of on occasion.

    Some of that also is rooted in sympathy for the underdog, real or imagined. IOW, “here I am, some mainstream white person in the world of the put-upon minority — having to look at the world through their prism — and how dare I not act in a humble, understanding and modest way!”

    Mark (411533)

  87. ______________________________________________

    Instead they shrieked and covered their ears, then chucked him into the piranha tank.

    I think everyone (including liberals, of course, centrists and conservatives) is guilty of having the emotions of “limousine liberalism” on occasion.

    Mark (411533)

  88. Mark — it may be so, but the editors of NR are professional writers and thinkers whose brief specifically is politics and the public sphere. They are also supposed to be adults, though I see no evidence of this.

    Their duty as professionals was to stay calm, restrain their initial instincts, and to think, consider, weigh, deliberate. They failed on every score. In this they are no better than liberals, and that’s pretty low.

    Derbyshire was their colleague and a man they had taken quite seriously for many years. He did not scrawl death threats on a wall in crayon, he offered his considered thoughts on a difficult subject, as a riposte to an equally sticky piece which, I am supposing he felt, had been written in an incomplete and distorted context (I refer to the original “black” Talk esay).

    The actual dynamic of the thing, in the midst of the hysteria, clear political leveraging and downright untruthfulness of the MSM’s Martin/Zimmerman circus, goes something like this:

    A black writer composes a hand-wringing piece bemoaning the tragedy that black parents have to explain to their children to behave around white people because they are viewed with suspicion.

    The basic substance of Derb’s reply is that white suspicions are not exactly made up out of thin air.

    Right or wrong, it’s not a madman’s position to take. The rest of the world was free to scoff if it pleased them to do so, but the editors of NR specifically owed their colleague something other than a pink slip and a sneer.

    As I say, the evil of their precedent is far greater and longer lasting than any bilge that Derb may have dredged up. They behaved contemptibly, and they have made our public sphere a bit more toxic than it was before.

    d. in c. (cae88c)

  89. Or is there a history of prejudice that relates to and (at least in part) causes those groups to be in the economic underclass — which directly relates to their commission of crimes? I suggest the answer lies not in genetics but in a combination of a history of prejudice and a culture of antisocial behavior — and I believe the latter may result largely if not entirely from the former.

    Is this the chicken or the egg – which came first question P?

    Choosing the path of eternal chip on shoulder vs. assimilating and being the best *you* you can be seems to be the root of the problem here.

    Presenting yourself s perpetual victim tends to ensure you will be treated as such.

    Amy Shulkusky (67fbd5)

  90. How do you guys feel about Derb’s suggestion that we all find black people to befriend as an “amulet” against charges of racism?

    I find it disgusting, and it bespeaks to his mindset.

    I judge one on one. Do I allow my back brain to warn me off in some instances? probably. But that’s based on MY personal experiences, not on statistics

    Amy Shulkusky (67fbd5)

  91. “How do you guys feel about Derb’s suggestion that we all find black people to befriend as an “amulet” against charges of racism? Now who could argue with that??”

    … sounds like he is describing Upper Middle Class White Liberals and Cocktail Republicans to me.

    Bill (af584e)

  92. #91, same can be said far Homosexuals BTW …….

    Bill (af584e)

  93. But didn’t you in fact support George W. Bush in that election?? (assuming your politics is about the same now)

    It sounds like that, instead of maybe defending George W. Bush from people prejudiced against him, you were separating yourself from him anxds his supporters – and it wasn’t even true. Or do I read this wrong?

    You do read it wrong. My statement was more like a friendly way of saying: “Hello! White male right in front of you! I can hear you!”

    It embarrassed her, a little, and it was (gently) intended to.

    You don’t have to browbeat or yell at someone to make a point.

    It is amusing to watch all the pseudonyms here (not you, Sammy, id that is your real name) accuse me of cowardice because I didn’t launch into an angry lecture, but instead chose an understated way to make a point to a woman with whom I worked daily for months.

    I don’t specifically remember whether I subsequently defended George W. in that conversation or not. It depends on whether the conversation naturally flowed that way or not.  I am not known for being shy about my political opinions — I’m a blogger, remember? — so I probably did if the conversation stayed political. If I did, my support was probably lukewarm, as I did not see him as a fantastic candidate in 2000. Just better than Gore.

    Patterico (a581c9)

  94. EricPWJohnson steers clear of Iran to avoid large concentrations of Joooooooooos.

    Icy (428765)

  95. Patterico, you should have told her off and then shouted OUTLAW! every time you saw her.

    OUTLAW!

    Obviously a liberal is not a good person and shouldn’t be treated as one. This is the best way to change their minds about conservatives, in my experience.

    Dustin (330eed)

  96. ( I am kidding… though the readers here are smart enough to see this, I never know what moron will try to spin what I say )

    Dustin (330eed)

  97. Patterico, Very good post. In a comment on a previous post I stated that it was important for conservatives to police conservatives. This is exactly that sort of thing I meant.

    Also, a long time back you wrote that you didn’t think a quota system (affirmative action) was a good way to address economic disparities caused by years of discrimination. If ever felt like writing what you’d prefer, I’d love to read it.

    time123 (5250bd)

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    Babies Info (5b22fc)

  99. here is what Mr. Mark Steyn has to say about this

    he’s in fine form and he asks this thought-provoking question…

    If Derb’s piece is sufficiently beyond the pale that its author must be terminated immediately, why is its publisher — our old friend Taki — proudly listed on the NR masthead?

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  100. you will gain an amulet against potentially career-destroying accusations of prejudice.

    Guess why they befriend you.

    New meme: Derbyshire was right.

    Paul A'Barge (b8eb22)

  101. Steyn’s piece is on target and he’s characteristically witty and pointed. (btw thanks for the link).

    But the plain fact is, he should be furious and outraged, rather than saddened and bemused. And he should resign in protest, out of sheer disgust. So should every writer there; and if they do not (and I know they won’t), I don’t really see how they can call themselves writers with a straight face.

    d. in c. (cae88c)

  102. That was the worst part of D.s piece, that IWSB friendship thing. I don’t think of people I like as amulets. I just like them.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  103. SarahW — I agree, but I think you need to read the piece with a certain jaundiced slant, so to speak, in order to grasp his real point. The piece to my mind did not read as satire, as some have suggested. But it does have a certain specific context which informs its angle of approach — it is consciously a reply to the post-Martin-shooting essay on “the black Talk” which appeared, I think in the Atlantic.

    Anyway the thrust of that essay was advice to a black child, “You need to realize that we live in an unjust, twisted society that is stacked against you, and you need to adopt certain survival strategies in order to live in it.”

    Part of Derb’s concept was to employ this very same premise from the other side, showing how PC/multicult/liberalism has poisoned society for whites, and what sort of subterfuge they too need to adopt to protect themselves.

    Personallly I don’t think his advice on that score is good or moral or even effective, but I believe his intent was not exactly literal; I think he was, so to speak, putting a bit of English on the ball.

    d. in c. (17012e)

  104. I find it particularly interesting how the Trayvon Martin story has absolutely ephing dissa-ephing-peared from the media since it’s come out that Trayvon was hardly the little Lord Fauntleroy that the family painted him as being.

    And I’m sure everyone reading this is shocked… shocked, I say!! … to have attention called to either of these rather “interesting” facts regarding the functioning performed by our totally unbiased mainstream media.

    IGotBupkis, Legally Defined Cyberbully in All 57 States (8e2a3d)

  105. It is a more pungent form of what got him in trouble
    with the Canadian Human Rights Commission,

    narciso (62c99e)

  106. From Steyn piece linked above,

    In such a climate, my default position is that I’d rather put up with whatever racist/sexist/homophobic/Islamophobic/whateverphobic excess everybody’s got the vapors about this week than accept ever tighter constraints on “acceptable” opinion.

    He makes a solid point. We are at the point where “acceptable” is visibly narrowing, day by day. And who is it that determines what “acceptable” is on any given day?

    Dana (4eca6e)

  107. I wounder if the story is vanishing because every time a new article was posted–There was a string of a 1,000+ comments most defending Zimmerman and listing story after story of black on black crime and FBI crime stats based on race.

    If anything, the stories were becoming catalysts for exactly the opposite meme the media was attempting to push.

    BfC (fd87e7)

  108. if Mr. Derbyderb were a black guy and he wrote the exact same piece I bet he’d still have his job

    life is whimsical like that

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  109. 98. Patterico, Very good post. In a comment on a previous post I stated that it was important for conservatives to police conservatives.

    Comment by time123

    We’d need a veritable police state to “police” liberals, as they offend so often and in such great numbers.

    Colonel Haiku (7efa05)

  110. Williams: “I just want to say to all the listeners on this phone call, that if you are having any doubt about getting suited, booted, and armed up for this race war that we’re in that has never ended, let me tell you somethin…the thing that’s about to happen these honkies, these crackers, these pigs, these people, these motherf*er…it has been long overdue.”

    Kweli: “Ya, what she said was right– we got to suit up and boot up…and get prepared for the war that we’re in…this stuff got to boil over, and all your great’s talked about that happened to be bloodshed involved with revolution- true revolution means some bloodshed, so there‘s blood being spilled because there’s a new life that is beyond this bloodshed. There is a new reality that is built upon your original African principles and spiritualities and values and norms that is beyond this bloodshed. But we gotta go do it.”

    Colonel Haiku (7efa05)

  111. that was supposed to be today already wasn’t it Mr. Colonel?

    tick tock panthers that new reality ain’t getting any fresher

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  112. “important for conservatives to police conservatives”

    Why? To maintain party discipline and a unified message? Because some people like to constrict other people’s range of thought? To make sure conservatives are really just neutered crypto-liberals?

    d. in c. (17012e)

  113. Mr. Derb’s range of thought would seem a lot less restricted if he’d defend his column or engage his critics or what have you

    I don’t know if he’s caught off guard or just wants to let the chips fall where they may or maybe he’s in the middle of a TVD marathon

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  114. Defend his column? Where? At National Review?

    What’s it been now, a whole 72 hours or so since this particular flying monkey left the airstrip?

    Besides, my query concerned the general principle expressed, not this individual case.

    Ostensible “conservatism” has fallen down flat on its face on this one, IMO. A major blow has been dealt to freedom of thought and conscience by the cowards at NR. Strictly speaking of course this isn’t a First Amendment issue b/c no govt involvement; but always remember that the FA is secondary and as it were meremy supplemental to the primary focus: this is supposed to be a culture of liberty. Free speech is in our blood, not merely in our laws.

    To have a man so swiftly and ludicrously punished for the simple act of *speaking his mind* ought to be repugnant to every American on its face.

    That this sort of thing has become downright commonplace, maybe even at this point the default expectation, ought to fill every American with fury.

    d. in c. (cae88c)

  115. I’m not sure about all this major blow business … I think I’d like to see things play out a bit more. You have to remember that Mr. Derb is just a curmudgeon what was writing for a fairly insignificant pansy mag.

    But he’s also a curmudgeon what hasn’t gotten his kids through college yet.

    Bless him.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  116. d. in c.,

    What was your take on the “amulet” comment?

    Patterico (feda6b)

  117. I wrote about it way upthread, shortly after you asked the original question. Can’t remember the comment # though.

    Briefly, I think it is of course repellent, but I also think his point was deliberately Machiavellian as I pointed out to I believe SarahW a bit of a ways up.

    In any event, the man thinks and writes for a living: so, on this occasion he thought and wrote, per his job, but it happened to be something rather disgusting.

    Dog barks, caravan moves on. I see no need for a firing squad.

    d. in c. (17012e)

  118. He didn’t just think and write, he was responding in-kind, to an article in the Orlando paper about The Talk the writer was going to have to have with his 11 year old son.

    JD (34d969)

  119. Some of it was practical advice. See Sean Tyson, whose victims would be alive today if they’d had access to the advice and taken it.
    Or that poor chump in Baltimore.
    That’s the problem with Derb’s piece. Some of it is absolutely practical with no moral component at all.
    And there’s no chance the viewers-with-alarm don’t do the same thing themselves. They just lie about why they happened to have to be out of Atlanta the week of Freaknik.

    Richard Aubrey (a75643)

  120. that was supposed to be today already wasn’t it Mr. Colonel?

    tick tock panthers that new reality ain’t getting any fresher

    Comment by happyfeet

    no lack of hatred
    sad state of affairs fo sho
    stick fork in I’m pink

    Colonel Haiku (7efa05)

  121. I don’t really think he was responding “in kind.”

    Patterico (feda6b)

  122. d. in c.,

    Could you elaborate on why you found Derbyshire’s “amulet” comment “repellent” and “disgusting”?

    Patterico (feda6b)

  123. Forbes has an article titled “The Martyrdom of John Derbyshire” on its website. This is the last paragraph:

    Lastly, on a more personal note, it only seems fair to note that John Derbyshire is in the midst of a battle against cancer and that it would be not just churlish but barbaric to take any sort of pleasure in his dismissal. I think the man’s views in this instance were appalling, but he deserves no small bit of sympathy for what he is going through. Everyone ought to remember that before celebrating.

    I don’t know anything more than this about his medical condition. I do not know if the cancer is terminal or treatable. I do not know if the disease itself, or a treatment he is receiving may affect Derbyshire’s thought processes or his filters. Perhaps if he fears he is not going to survive the cancer his concern for his children and his need to leave them “advice” and survival skills takes on new meaning. Or, maybe he is sick enough to be beyond caring about his career and just wanted to get some things off his chest.

    elissa (e23c47)

  124. Maybe it wasn’t kind. But it was not created out of thin air.

    JD (34d969)

  125. yes there was context what it was written in I think

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  126. but at this point I can’t imagine he would really very much want to write for this “National Review” outfit anymore

    they’re not nice people

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  127. There has been exponentially more coverage of a fabricated race incident, Trayvon, when compared to things like Fast and Furious.

    JD (34d969)

  128. Note I do not take a position in this post about NRO dismissing Derbyshire. I simply noted that I could see why they would not want to defend a piece with such comments.

    Patterico (feda6b)

  129. If only Derbyshire had sat in Reverend Wright’s church for twenty years, he might still have a job writing for The Nation or Mother Jones.

    Band Aid (0ae97d)

  130. Patterico — hmmm, why do I have a feeling you’re getting reàdy to spring a Socratic trap on me? :-)

    Well I’ll answer anyway: briefly I think the “amulet” remark (specifically) is repellent because he’s advising his children to learn to manipulate and “use” other people for cynical ends; to potentially offer false friendship for the purpose of using other humans as a tool. As Confucius put it, “The righteous man is not an implement.”

    Much or most of his advice consists of caution when encountering strangers, and so a lot of it is value-neutral to my ears. But in the amulet instance he was counseling a species of deceit.

    d. in c. (ac417f)

  131. I think it’s all too early to say. I’ve kinda inferred that they didn’t even bother to talk to Mr. Derb.

    Not sure about that.

    But what I do know is that the National Review is a rather buxom cheerleader for delimiting the rights of gay people just so. And, notwithstanding the fact that Mr. Derb himself is as rambunctious a bigot in such matters as you’re likely to find, I nevertheless find that sort of bigotry not at all distinctive from that bigotry what people have discerned in Mr. Derb’s Racist Screed.

    And furthermore, when this “National Review” fires a Mr. Dern in this peremptory and haughty fashion, what they are communicating to me, as a relatively disinterested pikachu, is that Mr. Derb was amiss most egregiously in having said such things out loud.

    Theirs is a publication, after all, with a glorious and rich history of segregation and civil rights boot-stomping.

    If these National Review people were truly so precious and upright to not associate with a Derbster, they never would have hired on at Bigot Mag Central in the first place.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  132. of *advocating* segregation I should say

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  133. Derbyshire lost me when he decided that it was important to inform readers that he believes another race to be generally less intelligent than his own. Could he actually believe that intelligence is what drives the moral compass and resulting behaviors? Because, if he sees them as mutually inclusive, then I can’t help but feel dreadfully sorry for his narrow-mindedness.

    Amulet and token – no degree of separation.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  134. oh. And that should be *Mr. Derb* instead of Dern… the kettle was squawking so I sorta rushed meself

    I’ve been having a hot cocoa in the evening for cause of how chocolate is promotive of weight loss

    it truly is an age of wonders

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  135. This is my last remark for the night, I have a late dinner date…

    As I said earlier, I think Derb’s piece is trying to serve two parallel purposes: one is to inject a bit of so-called “race realism” into the public discourse in the wake of the Martin affair (in the form of what he takes to be common sense about race.) His other purpose is to make a congruent, matching reply to the “black Talk” essay, trying to show that the present regime has created an unjust reality for whites as well as for blacks, to which whites too are forced by circumstance to adapt and respond by various contortions and acts of subterfuge.

    This is the light in which I think the way the amulet remark should be fully read. It’s a creepy thought, but I think Derb believes these are creepy times.

    d. in c. (ac417f)

  136. There has been exponentially more coverage of a fabricated race incident, Trayvon, when compared to things like Fast and Furious.

    Comment by JD — 4/9/2012

    Yes. One can be crammed to sorta fit the democrat narrative, the other cannot.

    It’s quite amazing when the coverage is compared like that.

    Dustin (330eed)

  137. Dana he didn’t link the IQ thing to a moral compass per se – he said the IQ dealio explains… why black people signed up for bad mortgage deals – and that was pretty much the extent to which he pushed that.

    But he didn’t cite IQ as an indicator of a deficient moral compass I don’t think

    He’s very random – not just here about the IQ thing but in other places in his essay – and if people are reading between the lines I think it’s a lot cause he seems to be inviting people to fill in the blanks on their own

    but yeah I think the way he cited IQ was more of an indicator that his own moral compass is a bit wonky

    he has his own agenda, this one, and I think it’s safe to say it’s an agenda the “National Review” is not of a mind to share at this time

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  138. Holder was right. There’s no way to discuss race in America. We destroyed two races to make her. We brought in Africans and deprived them of their culture and history. Then we sent them out as Buffalo Soldiers to commit the worst possible atrocities in our extermination of the Indians.

    It’s a scab, still. Don’t scratch it. Maybe it will heal, maybe it won’t.

    nk (52d02a)

  139. According to NBC News, Derbyshire accidentally submitted that article for publication—it wasn’t intentional on his part !

    Band Aid (0ae97d)

  140. Happyfeet,

    That’s why I kept it a question: Could he actually believe that intelligence is what drives the moral compass and resulting behaviors? However, given the entire context of the screed, I don’t believe it unreasonable to think that he might link the two.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  141. Dumb people can be good people, too.

    nk (52d02a)

  142. the Spice Girls never hurt nobody except maybe that Poshy one

    she’s terrifying

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  143. The capacity of the human cranium started shrinking like 10,000 years ago.
    Comment by gary gulrud — 4/9/2012 @ 8:49 am

    Yeah, those humans 10,000 years ago were so much smarter than we are today.

    Stashiu3 (cd7afe)

  144. Dana,

    The “swamped by blacks” line, together with the amulet business and the comments about intelligence, give the impression that he thinks of blacks as animals who need to be avoided at all costs to preserve one’s safety. It just comes across as a racist caricature, and one wonders how extreme such a polemic has to be before a publication can decide to exercise its free market rights and part company with such an author without incurring fury from people.

    Patterico (feda6b)

  145. And smart people can be evil. Who is smarter than Hitler or Ferbi?

    nk (52d02a)

  146. Steve Jobs?

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  147. As for “post his defense where?” — johnderbyshire.com.

    He has a place he can defend himself if he wants to.

    Patterico (feda6b)

  148. @ nk,

    Dumb people can be good people, too.

    And smart people can be evil.

    I believe the measure of a man is how he treats his neighbor. As such, intelligence pales significantly because it is Love that takes the cake.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  149. ______________________________________________

    It’s a creepy thought, but I think Derb believes these are creepy times.

    I think that just about sums it up. Context is important, and the issue of race and racism exists against a different backdrop today, in 2012, compared with, say, over 50 years ago.

    During the 1950s, racial covenants in real-estate contracts — in which a would-be buyer of a residential property could be casually and happily shunned due to race or ethnicity — still were strictly enforced or nonchalantly respected. Blatant, shameless de jure (and not de facto) segregation was observed by various school districts throughout America.

    Now pan forward to the US in the 21st century. The socio-political dynamics are so different — are so totally flipped around — that no less than an entity like the US military (again, the US military) will act like the ACLU or the faculty of UC Berkeley when it came to its white-glove treatment (or political correctness up the wazoo) of Nidal Hasan, right up until the day of his committing a massacre at Fort Hood.

    Mark (411533)

  150. @ d. in c.,

    I think Derb’s piece is trying to serve two parallel purposes: one is to inject a bit of so-called “race realism” into the public discourse in the wake of the Martin affair (in the form of what he takes to be common sense about race.) His other purpose is to make a congruent, matching reply to the “black Talk” essay, trying to show that the present regime has created an unjust reality for whites as well as for blacks, to which whites too are forced by circumstance to adapt and respond by various contortions and acts of subterfuge.

    I don’t know whether or not this screed was intended to serve the two purposes described above, but what I do know is that if this were true, there would be no need to bring inferior intelligence or tokenism into it. Taking the opportunity to denigrate blacks and give his approval to usury of them does not seem to a profitable way to make any points other than expressing his own personal racism.

    After having read the essay 3x, the inclusion of the amulet and intelligence observations diminished, and perhaps even nullified any salient points he may have had.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  151. People’s ideas are so confused.
    Comment by Sammy Finkelman — 4/9/2012 @ 9:54 am

    – You oughta know.

    Icy (428765)

  152. Just in case people are wondering why there has been so much spam lately… there hasn’t. I’ve been otherwise occupied for the past 5 days and haven’t been tending things. It’s all cleaned up now.

    Sorry for any inconvenience. By the way, Ryan/Jason/Robert is now banned per Patterico after having been warned about sockpuppeting (trying to avoid moderation). It wasn’t imdw, he was too stupid. ;)

    Stashiu3 (cd7afe)

  153. This was what Derbyshire was reacting against in part, yes it was a deranged reaction, but seriously;

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-23/news/os-ed-trayvon-martin-darryl-owens-032312-20120323_1_black-parents-survival-guide-wrong-word

    narciso (62c99e)

  154. People don’t appreciate what Stashiu does enough.

    Patterico (a581c9)

  155. narciso,

    I don’t believe “deranged reaction” covers for what is essentially the self-outing of a racist. If Derbyshire had not made an issue of supposed inferior intelligence and the amulet bit, I wouldn’t be as forceful. But frankly, it’s repelling. Deranged let’s him off the hook.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  156. Dana, there is no surprise about any of this. Go to John Derbyshire’s website and poke around; you will see lots and lots of broad hints about his xenophobia and, um, contrarian style. He politely just doesn’t care about what is “fashionable” in discussion.

    Again, I think that some of this is fueled by his contrarian dislike of PC. To his mind, we are all afraid to talk about race (well, we are). So he takes it up to 11, to quote the fellows from Spinal Tap.

    It is absolutely no defense, but I do notice that the MSM has little to say about the New Black Panthers, or Marion Barry, or Spike Lee…examples of African-American people who say deeply racist and hateful things. Heck, the President referred to his own grandmother as a “typical white person.”

    Good thing he wasn’t a White Hispanic, isn’t it?

    Anyway, Mr. Derbyshire responds to that societal schizophrenia…poorly.

    There is much that is personally admirable about Mr. Derbyshire, I can assure you. I am reminded a bit about my father, who says horrifically racist things…but who has also saved literally dozens of minority lives as a firefighter, without a second thought or complaint.

    I’m not making Mr. Derbyshire into a hero (though my father remains a hero, even with his profane language and occasional racist commentary). I am saying that John Derbyshire is a much nicer, more honest, and more admirable man than, say, Al Sharpton.

    Sigh. Damned by faint praise, I know.

    But I have always cringed at the racist “see how far I can take this” tone to some of Mr. Derbyshire’s essays. I *think* he wanted to be like Jonathan Swift.

    As has been suggested before, it is also possible that chemotherapy has altered his thinking in one of two ways: making him not care about bad press, or making him not thoughtful about the timing and probable response to his essay. He cannot have been surprised at the reaction, since he has fenced with people before on this topic over the years.

    Just my two cents.

    Simon Jester (436b6f)

  157. One more thing, Dana. I come at this a bit differently than most, since I have grown up seeing the difference between what my father said about various racial groups, and what he did (running into burning buildings to save them).

    So this may color (whoops) my viewpoint here. Racism is repugnant. I detest it when a person is judged not on what they do, but who their ancestors were. The value of the individual means more to me than an identity group.

    So I am decidedly not defending the xenophobic essays of Mr. Derbyshire.

    Simon Jester (436b6f)

  158. i totally missed this it’s Mr. Derb’s first interview after the recent unpleasantness – thank you dicentra

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  159. ____________________________________________

    I suggest that you read the actual piece, and not simply the caricatures offered by Derbyshire’s critics.

    Since your comments and personal experiences captured my attention and interest far more this morning than anything from a writer I’m not familiar with, I finally did just read Derbyshire’s essay.

    Unless the writer’s intent was to be extremely sarcastic — in order to mock the left — and to flippantly parody a slice of today’s PC culture, he otherwise comes off as far too comfortable in portraying blacks in the most condescending and patronizing manner possible. One major sign of that? Not once in his entire essay does he make a distinction between people (who happen to be black) that are politically conservative compared with people (who also happen to be black) that are politically liberal. Talk about not focusing on aspects of people that are more than skin deep. Talk about not expressing any interest in what makes people tick — regardless of race — far below the surface.

    The clincher that traps Derbyshire, oddly enough, is not his portrayal of black people who have negative traits, but instead his assessment of such people when they have positive qualities. Namely, his assessment of “intelligent and well-socialized blacks,” or (based on his acronym) “IWSB.” His take on the matter is so extremely patronizing, that I’d be surprised if someone like Clarence Thomas, Thomas Sowell or Herman Cain wouldn’t be quite insulted by (or certainly very wary of) what makes Derbyshire tick.

    A variety of white liberals (and “IWSB” liberals too), when no one is looking (and in the privacy of their home), will behave the exact way that Derbyshire details (or recommends) in his column. However, I think far more of them compared with people who have an attitude as cavalier as Derbyshire’s will be sheepish about that type of response and unhappy about the harsh reality behind it.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  160. _____________________________________________

    I am reminded a bit about my father, who says horrifically racist things…but who has also saved literally dozens of minority lives as a firefighter, without a second thought or complaint.

    People can be chameleons or rather schizophrenic.

    Anyone who has read some of the letters that Harry Truman wrote to his wife and daughter, in which he expresses views that would make even a Klu Klux Klanner blush, will be aware of the epitome of contradictory behavior. Truman’s comments were so extreme that they actually strike me as having come from someone who was mentally ill. IOW, to be an otherwise intelligent, well-read, decent human being — as Truman appeared to be in general (and who did desegregate the military, and who also was a big supporter of the idea of publicly supported healthcare) — but to also have had such a vindictive, coarse and crude view of people based on their race, ethnicity and religion, should make any normal person wary, nervous and appalled.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  161. 63. Comment by Mark — 4/9/2012 @ 8:50 am

    The fact that areas like Ladera Heights and Baldwin Hills in general have remained over 90% black for over 40 years, in spite of true changes in society’s racial attitudes and legal policies

    Ladera Heights is not now 90% black. It is about 75% black.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladera_Heights,_California

    The 2010 United States Census[3] reported that Ladera Heights had a population of 6,498. The population density was 2,191.1 people per square mile (846.0/km²).

    The racial makeup of Ladera Heights was 4,786 (73.7%) African American, 979 (15.1%) White, 20 (0.3%) Native American, 231 (3.6%) Asian, 2 (0.0%) Pacific Islander, 134 (2.1%) from other races, and 346 (5.3%) from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 355 persons (5.5%).

    Other races is people who just didn’t like these categories, and/or wanted to be more specific. In particular, I think, some Arabs don’t like to be called white.

    That part of Los Angeles was predominantly white back in the early 1960s. When the Watts Riots occurred in 1965, the area soon became rapidly integrated, as black families started moving in, eventually becoming segregated all over again. But by the late 1960s predominantly black instead of white.

    The Wikipedia article gives the history like this:

    When Frank Robinson and other notable black sports heroes moved to Ladera Heights in the 1970s, many other affluent blacks integrated into the neighborhood. In the late 1970s, a brief period of “white flight” occurred, with many affluent white families leaving the neighborhood for cities such as Palos Verdes. In the early 1980s, the neighborhood became a mecca for wealthy black families. The Southern California real estate boom of the late 1990s and early 2000s brought into the area a few more upper middle-class families of other races.[2]

    Sammy Finkelman (033fec)

  162. How do you guys feel about Derb’s suggestion that we all find black people to befriend as an “amulet” against charges of racism? Now who could argue with that??

    That is a ridiculous way to live. Not entirely irrational per we but bizarre and who would want to be friends with a callous, almost sociopathic user like that?

    The black friends I’ve had have all been people I like, wanted to sleep with, and/or marry. Usually at least 2 out of 3, with gender playing the deciding factor.

    That said though, there’s a lot of lip service paid to diversity with an absolute taboo on talking about certain aspects of it.

    The fact is, humans are animals. We evolved. This did not stop when we left Africa and settled vastly different geographic niches. We adapted to those niches through natural and sexual selection and there was also simple genetic drift. Further, most humans interbred to a greater a greater or lesser degree with Neanderthals and some did not: sub-Saharan Africans — who have more genes related to Homo habilis.

    There is simply no mechanism by which nature could have altered our physiology (including hormone levels: which affect behavior) and morphology, but not the main organ we actually use to survive, our rapidly evolving hominid brains. MRI and other study data back this up and Intelligence testing does as well. Further, crime data, in aggravate, falls out in predictable tiers around the world, within a given culture, along racial lines. There are many other behaviors that do.

    I did not wish or want this to be true. It just is.

    Nature does a lot of things but “equal” is not one of them. Nature has no mechanism for equal. Nature does random mutations and competition and adaption, which lead to “different”.

    Which isn’t to say better or worse (it depends on environment), but different.

    Every race and population has all sorts of people in it, but the frequency of distribution is different. Like it or not. I assume most of you won’t. So much so that you’ll start attacking me now.

    Random (fba0b1)

  163. *per se

    Random (fba0b1)

  164. re: the amulet

    That’s probably the one thing that saved Zimmerman – that he had a black neighbor vouching for him not being a racist.

    Honestly think that without that, there’d be pitchforks and torches in the street looking for the guy. That one little fact probably erased the severity of malice towards him.

    You can make of this what you will. But the fact that the, “but I have black friends” caveat that is said before one makes remarks (positive or negative) about the black community, is essentially no different.

    Side thought: Chris Rock said basically the same thing Derbyshire is saying, and with a more pointed malice towards how much he (Rock) ‘hates n***as.’ It almost seems like a double standard.

    michael (df4cf3)

  165. the idea of there being a prevalence of “Black Muslim” type hatred against whites among ordinary blacks, and the idea of blacks being, really, really stupider than whites.

    The data supports, on average, a difference of one standard deviation for north-American (largely mixed race) blacks and two standard deviations for sub-Saharan (largely non-mixed race) blacks. Part of which is probably environmental and part genetic. But nonetheless, the numbers are what they are.

    Look, I wish this wasn’t so. My favorite friend of the family growing up was a big black guy, a friend if my dad’s. I wasn’t raised to hate black people at all and I don’t — any more than I hate Australian aborigines who have yet somewhat lower average intelligence and smaller brains or to, in particular, love far-east Asian mongoloid people who have somewhat higher intelligence and larger brains. Or high-IQ Ashekenazi Jews for that matter.

    But things are what they are.

    For the record, I’m mixed race (caucasion/native). I am not arguing for my genetic superiority — at all.

    But there are real, aggregate, biological differences between populations, and these differences influence cultures. They very much include not just physical differences, but aggregate behaviors.

    Families have different genetics from each other, including intelligence. Individuals do too. Well guess what? So do larger groups.

    As I said above, we don’t even all share the same percentages of various related-hominid-species genes.

    Random (fba0b1)

  166. I’m not going in that direction, Derbyshire who has
    rarely been diplomatic, was reacting to the off stated notion, that law enforcement in general is
    the greater problem, take the Rodney King case,
    without the Foothills chase, and the subsequent
    confrontation with police, would there have been
    a ’cause celebre’ the last part edited out of the aforementioned tape,

    narciso (60bfb5)

  167. I have many thoughts about the Derbyshire piece, and they dovetail with my reaction to others’ reaction to the Martin killing. But I’m on deadline, and can’t take the necessary time to express myself in the way I am accustomed.

    I’ll just say this for now: One of the reasons why I rejected liberalism is because I realized that all the feel-good rhetoric about affirmative action doesn’t hide the fact that it locks minorities in general and black people in particular into dependence either in fact or by implication. Regardless of individual initiative or accomplishment, white liberals always can, in a sense, pat all black people on the head like a toddler or a pet, thinking they’re doing a good deed by allowing us to have an opportunity that they presume is not earned.

    My parents never had “the talk” to which Derbyshire refers, and apparently so offended by he offers his own version. Thankfully, my late father, who grew up in the Jim Crow deep south, was able to do well enough to bring our family into a middle-class neighborhood in San Francisco. He knew nothing good would come of feeding me stories of the indignities of growing up poor in the pre-Civil Rights era while we were living in a neighborhood full of white people. As a result, when faced with racism, I didn’t respond with seething anger; I pitied the people who thought that way.

    I am a happier black man than many, I believe, because I don’t presume that white people are racists until proven innocent. Derbyshire seems to presume that black people are violent and intellectually inferior until they prove themselves to be “amulets” he can cultivate for his own defense against charges of bigotry. How’s that working out for ya, Derb? It’s this kind of schtuff that keeps black people on the liberal plantation; that screed will be Exhibit A the next time someone says conservatives are reflexively discriminatory.

    I’m out of time now. If you care to know more of how I think regarding these matters, read this, which I wrote in 1998 in response to Toni Morrison calling Bill Clinton America’s first black President, he being “[From a] single-parent household, born poor, working-class, saxophone-playing, McDonald’s-and-junk-food-loving boy from Arkansas.”

    P.S. It warmed my heart the way that many regular posters here stood up for my character when it was being assailed after my remarks here about George Zimmerman. You know who you are. Thank you.

    L.N. Smithee (3228c5)

  168. LN, I remain a big fan of your writing and the polite way you express yourself, even when people are rude.

    Simon Jester (436b6f)

  169. LN – on this, I tend to agree with you. On those rare times I disagree with you, I respect you.

    JD (34d969)

  170. Derbyshire probably expected a response from the left but not from his right. The mathematical illiteracy of Americans is partly to blame as no one seems to know what mean is. Charles Murray got into similar trouble when the Bell Curve came out. He was attacked as racist when all he was doing was calling attention to his concern that we were creating a white elite who did not have any connection to ordinary people. In doing so he mentioned mean IQ scores which are higher for Asians and lower for blacks. MEAN, mean, mean!

    Anyway, he also worried about the fact that, if there was anything to eugenics, the white elites who attended the same colleges and married each other would tend to produce higher mean IQ children and normal distribution would regress. In black families, the opposite effect would be working as low IQ street thugs impregnated low mean IQ girls and shifted the mean for blacks down.

    Whether this has happened, people can judge for themselves. Derbyshire’s tone was similar to all his writings and the reaction to his piece has probably conformed his pessimism.

    Mike K (d6b02c)

  171. _____________________________________________

    How’s that working out for ya, Derb? It’s this kind of schtuff that keeps black people on the liberal plantation; that screed will be Exhibit A the next time someone says conservatives are reflexively discriminatory.

    I’m reminded of various political analysts (eg, Karl Rove, etc) who’ve claimed or believed that Latino America would move to the left, or shun conservatives/Republicans, due to anti-illegal-immigration rhetoric. Perhaps a percentage of Latinos will respond accordingly, but that assumption fails to note the huge amount of leftism that dominates nations in Central and South America. Therefore, should one also assume that much of the electorate in a society like Mexico is in love with liberals/liberalism because of years of anti-illegal-immigration rhetoric from Mexico’s rightwingers?

    Black America has grown more and more liberal — both socially and electorally — over the past several decades. So has that segment of the population become less conservative since over 40 to 60 years ago because a reduction in levels of racism and discrimination tends to push people to the…left?

    Mark (411533)

  172. Mr. Debyshire regrets he’s unable to lunch today Mr. Lowry

    cause of you pushed him down a well and he bonked his head as he fell

    Mr. Derbyshire regrets

    he’s unable

    to lunch

    today

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  173. *Derbyshire* I mean with an r

    a nice proper hobbit name, that

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  174. ____________________________________________

    Ladera Heights is not now 90% black. It is about 75% black.

    To be precise, it’s the areas farther to the north and east of Ladera Heights that I was thinking of when describing neighborhoods that were formerly predominantly white, but now for over 40 years have remained predominantly black. Although the figure should be in the high 80-percentile range, and not 90.

    There are pockets of urban LA and America (eg, DC and Atlanta) that have become less segregated over the past few decades, as whites — generally young and single or couples without children, and who are “pioneers” socially, politically speaking — move back to areas that whites originally abandoned decades ago. That trend is a small ray of hope.

    In doing so he mentioned mean IQ scores which are higher for Asians and lower for blacks.

    In general, I’ll have more confidence in a person (regardless of his or her race) who’s sensible and conservative than a person of high IQ status (eg, America’s first “black president,” Bill Clinton) who tends to be scroungy, disingenuous and leftwing. But a person suffering from a foolish ideology (ie, leftism) and a wobbly intellect can be the worst of both worlds. A combination that can very quickly become both destructive and self-destructive.

    Mark (411533)

  175. A curmudgeonly crank name of Derb,
    Spoke his mind, and got kicked to the curb.
    Now all libs are confessin’
    To the true leftist lesson:
    Write no lines more complex than a blurb.

    d. in c. (98e527)

  176. Said the Left, “No, we won’t debate Derb;
    We’ll just smoke intellectual herb.
    We’ll just spray him with mucus
    While we sit on our tuchus
    Behind a sign that reads, Do Not Disturb.”

    d. in c. (c68022)

  177. L.N. Smithee–
    As always, thank you for coming to the discussion with a new way of expressing things and to offer your perspective (which many of us always look forward to). Like many, I’ve done a lot of thinking on the subject of race over the weeks since the Trayvon case erupted into the media, now followed by the Derbyshire after-fire.

    For those who dislike long personal stories please stop here and skip on to the next comment.

    I have a dear longtime friend, a professional black woman with whom I worked closely back in the 1980′s. I’ll call her “Faye”. We had lunch together several days a week. We spent tons of personal time together, too. I had been transferred into her turf and Faye did so much to introduce me to the area, the social scene, shoe shopping, music festivals, dog adoption, dinners in each others homes, etc. Even after our careers took us to different places we’ve stayed in touch–regular emails, phone calls on holidays, birthdays and upon family deaths. Now states apart, we’ve visited each others homes, shared occasional gifts and our families have traveled together on weekend vacations a couple times. I don’t believe there has ever been a cross word or misunderstanding between us. I can’t think of any awkwardness. There’s been a lot of laughter. We’re at the stage of our lives where memories mean more and more and now whenever we talk there’s a lot of “OMG, do you remember when we did such-and-such?”

    But I am slowly realizing that over all these years we have never really discussed race-even superficially. For me Faye is a good person and an interesting friend whom I love being around. I’m pretty sure she sees me the same way. Yeah, we know our skins are different shades because we’ve helped each other blend and buy make-up. She’s shared some great ethnic recipes that I would probably not have known about otherwise. Faye’s husband has shown me that seasoned slow roasted goat meat is delicious.

    Obviously, we have not discussed Trayvon or Derbyshire. (She did once mention in passing that she thinks OJ was guilty.) The question I am pondering these days is: is my friendship with Faye all the stronger because we’ve never seen each other as anything other than fellow humans and have (perhaps subconsciously) refused to let race intrude into our little party, or is it a weaker friendship than I want to believe because we are not willing to “go there”?

    elissa (126d93)

  178. Narcisco — I for one would be surprised if the decision to forego the GJ by the Florida State Attorney was part of a decision-making process which results in the State’s Attorney filing the case. In fact, I think it suggests the opposite, and that given the state of the evidence she does not want her office stuck trying to prosecute an indictment handed down by a GJ which she knows she cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Given the uproar in the public at large, a GJ is likely to return and indictment notwithstanding the very strong “self-defense” statute in Florida. With the state of the evidence as it is publicly known, she can’t win a trial.

    So, its politically risky for her, but the best way to handle the matter based on what is known is to thoroughly investigate the case and then close it as her predecessor did.

    shipwreckedcrew (f36160)

  179. Elissa – I would suggest that it speaks to the quality of your relationship that neither of you have ever felt compelled to.

    JD (ace8c4)

  180. Well, NR proved less loyal to Derb
    Than a Kosovar is to a Serb;
    Instead of weighing and sifting,
    They just skulked away Pfft!-ing:
    “To refute” is their least favorite verb.

    d. in c. (55dbc3)

  181. is my friendship with Faye all the stronger because we’ve never seen each other as anything other than fellow humans and have (perhaps subconsciously) refused to let race intrude into our little party, or is it a weaker friendship than I want to believe because we are not willing to “go there”?

    Friendships are not tests that are proven better if you can cross boundaries. You didn’t ‘go there’ because of your and her dignity.

    Sounds like a great relationship.

    Dustin (330eed)

  182. NRO is certainly free to choose the contributors with which it associates, for any reason. I’m not saying there is an equivalence, but this blog actively campaigned for David Frum to disassociate himself from a writer who appeared to advocate pedophilia a few years back.

    Eric Holder called this country a nation of cowards because we would not have an honest conversation about race. I don’t believe Eric Holder has had an honest conversation about race during the Obama Administration and I don’t believe Derbyshire’s piece represents an honest or helpful conversation about race.

    To me Derbyshire’s comments about tokenism or amulets are repugnant. They hearken back to the days of early 1980s when it seemed like to be fashionable, the liberal glitterati had to have a Central American Agrarian Reformer (read communist dictator in waiting) in tow at every cocktail party. I’m not a supporter of diversity for diversity’s sake or quotas, I’m a supporter of achievement and hiring or admitting qualified applicants.

    I don’t adhere to the race based intelligence studies Derbyshire cites, I think culture and socioeconomic variables have a bigger impact. I think if we could free the education system from some of the grip of the its Democrat and union dominance, we would see some of differences Derbyshire describes start to lessen.

    I found Derbyshire’s piece in no way satirical, with part of its focus on safety concerns which could be described for his children attending an event where all of a sudden a large group of skinheads appeared, a large group demanding the destruction of Israel and it’s patron the U.S.A, or any other combination too numerous to mention.

    But wait you say, Derbyshire cites statistics on crime! So what. All he does with that is emphasize differences, the same as Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson attempt to do from their perspectives. The statistics are what they are. A conversation about them in my mind involves more than rubbing peoples’ faces in them and emphasizing racial differences, unless that was Derbyshire’s real purpose.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  183. Anyway, he also worried about the fact that, if there was anything to eugenics, the white elites who attended the same colleges and married each other would tend to produce higher mean IQ children and normal distribution would regress. In black families, the opposite effect would be working as low IQ street thugs impregnated low mean IQ girls and shifted the mean for blacks down.

    What you’re referring to is associative mating. It happens in both whtes and blacks in both the higher and lower end of the IQ scale. So this is not, by itself, dysgenic. 

    A better (and relevant) example of dysgenic behavior is providing welfare. Welfare is given to people of any race who are economically less successful.  Lower economic is correlated with low IQ. So welfare provides the means for lower IQ people to support their families and, in some cases, an incentive for especially single women to have children. 

    Another example is religion. Religiosity is correlated with lower IQ. Note correlated with does not equal always indicative of. However, the most popular religions teach people to be fruitful and multiply. Highly religious people are less likely to use birth control or have abortions. 

    Conversely, higher IQ people are more likely to use some form of family planning, and actually average less frequent sex. The latter probably wouldn’t be extremely important in the absence of family planning technologies and would be outweighed by the survival and success benefits of greater intelligence, but abortion and birth control are big players in this dynamic. 

    So this forces a downward effect on human intelligence due to dysgenics, yet intelligence is actually rising generally. 

    This is called “The Flynn Effect” and is commonly attributed to increased nutrition, better education, and sometimes to more sharing of information. 

    I think the last one is most important, but not in the way it is commonly understood. I believe population density itself is a major upward pressure on intelligence, for direct genetic reasons (and not just social reasons leading to more complex natural and sexual selection pressures). The hypothesis is explained here at Stalking the Wild Taboo.

    Random (fba0b1)

  184. “Another example is religion. Religiosity is correlated with lower IQ.”

    Random – Are you referring to studies that equated professorships to intelligence? Do you have some citations?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  185. A few, daleyrocks. I’m on an iPhone so it’s hard doing lots of copying and pasting but, for example:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289608001013

    You can find this (including a helpful graph for visualization purpose in the main article) and others in the references section here.
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence#section_3

    I know this much. I was raised in a religion and had a ready-eyed convo with my dad at about 12 explaining to him that I didn’t believe in god. It was based on comparing the scientific case to what I was taught in Sunday school (which they kicked me out of for asking too many questions they could not answer). I’m sure, personally, we’re I less intelligent, that wouldn’t have happened so quickly in my particular household.

    I’m not a genius, but I could see numerous gaping flaws in one whereas the other one made sense and fit together. Further, learning more made it fit together better. Reading the Bible, on the other hand, is terribly hard on belief, I feel, for an empathic, intelligent, inquisitive person.

    Random (fba0b1)

  186. *teary-eyed

    Random (fba0b1)

  187. Thank Allah nobody was on anti depressants.

    Aphrael – I think that disenfransized should not include those that choose to not comply with fundamentally basic requirements.

    JD (ace8c4)

  188. Derbyshire never stated that whites were angels, but even you backhandily admitted that whites commit little crime in LA County. You give a long list of non-white groups than have gangs. White gangs in San Fernando? Really, which ones? Like some black people I work with, they think American History X was a documentary rather than a fantasy of the radical left seeing Nazis under every bed. White crime is miniscule. And who said the auto burglary in a white neighborhood was comitted by a white? Unlikely, unless tehy were Democrats or Occupy types. If we had only white criminals, it would be great. If blacks committed only crime in the same proportion of whties, that would be great as well. But that isn’t the situation. Reality is that black crime is rampant.

    Crime statistics show that whiles commit little crime in both absoute and relative amounts. Blacks comit dispropotionite amounts of crime, especially inter-racial crime.

    Federale (e4cce0)

  189. Years ago, my wife and I attended an enrobing of a judge in Compton. He is white but his wife is black. The room was filled with black people.

    Only black people? Did the judge have no white friends except you?

    As to the blacks present: You did not know those black people personally, but you knew what general category they fell into (legal professionals or paraprofessionals and their immediate family, nearly all mature or elderly adults). Furthermore, it was a formal occasion at a secured location.

    Derb was talking about collections of blacks about whom one knows nothing else, in public areas open to anyone. When such venues attract large crowds of blacks, there is a significant chance that those crowds will include violent criminals, who may engage in random attacks on whites (they feel empowered by numbers) or in internecine violence escalating to gunfire.

    In either case, as a rule one doesn’t want to be there. Which is what Derb said.

    Also – when a large crowd of miscellaneous blacks appears, there is a significant possibility that the gathering was deliberately organized (through cell phones and social media), with the purpose of intimidating any whites present and overwhelming law enforcement. It is prudent to leave the area immediately.

    Rich Rostrom (6bd309)

  190. You did not know those black people personally, but you knew what general category they fell into (legal professionals or paraprofessionals and their immediate family, nearly all mature or elderly adults).

    All of them? How did Patterico know that?

    When such venues attract large crowds of blacks, there is a significant chance that those crowds will include violent criminals, who may engage in random attacks on whites (they feel empowered by numbers) or in internecine violence escalating to gunfire.

    No

    Dustin (330eed)

  191. > Try traveling through Watts and Compton sometime. There are a hell of a lot of decent and law-abiding people there. Who are put off by all the drug dealing and lawlessness that pervades too much of their community.

    Ditto Harlem.

    As an aside, while there are problems with it, the book “Gang Leader For A Day” is a very insightful look, in part, at the way people in the Chicago housing projects reacted to the gang presence in their midst.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  192. > As a result, when faced with racism, I didn’t respond with seething anger; I pitied the people who thought that way.

    > I am a happier black man than many, I believe, because I don’t presume that white people are racists until proven innocent.

    This shows a great strength of character, and I respect you greatly for it.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  193. I took Derbyshire’s piece to be a satire that came off wrong. In particular, that ‘amulet’ thing reminded me of things I had seen on the shows ‘Seinfeld’ and ‘The New Adventures of Old Christine’. I can understand NR firing him though. Too bad about the cancer, though.
    I once sent Derbyshire an e-mail about a math problem he posted, trying to gently suggest he’d been taken. Others must have sent him similar e-mails, and he responded at NR in a lively way that put the joke on himself.

    Alvin H. Belt (7e149d)

  194. Nice to see you, Aphrael.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  195. “I’m sure, personally, we’re I less intelligent, that wouldn’t have happened so quickly in my particular household.”

    Random – What everybody on this site has come to admire is your humility, we’re still waiting for evidence of your intelligence.

    Do you know what else correlates well with lack of religion? Wealth. Does poverty also cause stupidity, Random?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  196. Does poverty also cause stupidity

    Other way around.

    Random (fba0b1)

  197. g

    Random (fba0b1)

  198. So. My experience tells me that yes, sometimes black people are suspicious of people of other races. Sometimes black people are criminals. But these generalizations are also true of whites.

    Yes, and some international terrorists are not Muslims.

    But you know, there’s a larger percentage of international terrorists of Islamic faith than any other creed by far.

    The equivalence you make is meaningless and worthless.

    We need to stop attempting to deny the part of the groups in question — Islam and “Black” — in the perceptions of their capacity for behavior ‘x’. As long as you give them this worthless equivalence as an out, the group in question will obfuscate, deny, and otherwise pawn off their own personal responsibility in helping clean up anti-social behavior — because as long as that “out” is held up for them, the perps in question will use it … trade on it … to hide amongst what I will grant are otherwise decent and innocent people.

    I’m sorry — if someone bombs an abortion clinic, even if there are no lives lost — I’m going to be all in favor of seeking that person’s head on a platter — and the fact that they are Xtian or White or Male doesn’t mean JACK SH** to me. If someone is doing something wrong by most rational standards, then that overrides any racial, sexual, or creed-oriented camaraderie that might be expected.

    It’s not that high a standard for behavior — because it’s exactly the one we’re supposed to be advocating: a world where color, sex, or other factors don’t enter into the treatment received by an individual as a member of society.

    IGotBupkis, Legally Defined Cyberbully in All 57 States (8e2a3d)

  199. Do you know what else correlates well with lack of religion? Wealth.

    ?? Are you claiming a negative connection between wealth and religious belief?

    That should be a considerable surprise to the Jews.

    IGotBupkis, Legally Defined Cyberbully in All 57 States (8e2a3d)

  200. You are glib, daleyrocks. Glib.

    JD (65d1c1)

  201. I took Derbyshire’s piece to be a satire that came off wrong. In particular, that ‘amulet’ thing reminded me of things I had seen on the shows ‘Seinfeld’ and ‘The New Adventures of Old Christine’.

    Not exactly. I don’t know of the Old Christine episode of which you speak, but the Seinfeld episode is “The Diplomat’s Club,” one of the greatest in the entire series.

    After George comments to a black superior (at his job working for the New York Yankees) that he looks just like boxer Sugar Ray Leonard, the reply is unsettling: “I suppose we all look alike to you, right, Costanza?” In a frantic attempt to prove that he’s not prejudiced, and has close black friends (which, of course, he doesn’t — Jerry, Kramer & Elaine are the only people who can stand him), he tracks down the few black people he’s come across in the history of the series, hoping they will accompany him so he can show off to his boss. He finally is able to convince Carl, an exterminator who once fumigated Jerry’s apartment.

    What makes this ep so special are the other outstanding subplots: The gambling bug has bitten Kramer again, and he foolishly bets against a Texas tycoon at the airport’s Diplomat’s Club on whether incoming flights will arrive on time; the aristocratic Mr. Pitt has written his fed-up Girl Friday Elaine into his will, but a series of unfortunate coincidences convinces one of his aides that she’s trying to murder him to collect; Jerry, who needs to fly upstate for a gig before immediately returning to NYC to meet his supermodel girlfriend on layover, has to deal with a mega-annoying agent who accidentally psyches him out before he takes the stage.

    Along with NBC’s Friends, Seinfeld was frequently criticized during its network run because the principal cast was all-white, and, said critics, minority guest characters didn’t stray too far from well-worn stereotypes. The fact of the matter is that Jerry Seinfeld’s best man at his wedding was African-American standup comic George Wallace (real name!), his roommate in his salad days as a comedian.

    L.N. Smithee (7b0e77)

  202. “That should be a considerable surprise to the Jews.”

    IGotBupkis, Legally Defined Cyberbully in All 57 States – I’m not the commenter trying to prove that atheists or agnostics are smarter than religious believers. This is where the race-based or ethnically-based intelligence theorists wind up in trouble. I believe there is evidence that both intelligence and decline in religious belief correlates positively with affluence. Talk to Random, he believes he is super intelligent. He has your answers.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  203. Thanks for the memories, LN. I still like the Soup Nazi best.

    JD (ace8c4)

  204. “Does poverty also cause stupidity

    Other way around.”

    Random – Thank you for confirming my point in comment #199.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  205. “You are glib, daleyrocks. Glib.”

    JD – Who needs SEK when you have Random to carpet bomb the site with terms of polysyllabic profundity. The difference is that SEK actually knew what the terms he was referencing meant.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  206. This presumption that certain segments of our population do not have “it” together enough to have either an interest in obtaining – much less the wherewithal to obtain – the sort of identification required to function in life is the soft bigotry of extremely low expectations.

    I find it a very sad commentary.

    Colonel Haiku (660b31)

  207. Try traveling through Watts and Compton sometime. There are a hell of a lot of decent and law-abiding people there. Who are put off by all the drug dealing and lawlessness that pervades too much of their community.

    Comment by aphrael

    I had an aunt and uncle who ran a sporting goods store in the Watts district for years, who were fortunate enough to own one of the few white-owned business establishments that wasn’t burned to the ground during the ’65 riots. They lived just a mile or so from their store, and had good neighbors but finally grew weary of seeing dead bodies pulled out of dumpsters and the disheartening day-to-day lives lived by so many, so they began building their dream retirement home up in Crestline in the San Bernardino mountains. The riots and destruction all around were the final straws, so to speak.

    Colonel Haiku (660b31)

  208. Hi Colonel Haiku:

    (1) I didn’t say “Try traveling through Watts and Compton sometime. There are a hell of a lot of decent and law-abiding people there. Who are put off by all the drug dealing and lawlessness that pervades too much of their community.” That was Patterico’s comment, which I was quoting to add the comment “Ditto Harlem”. I’m not qualified to comment on Compton and Watts; I am qualified to comment on Harlem.

    (2) “that wasn’t burned to the ground during the ’65 riots” … The ’65 riots were forty seven years ago. It’s simply not credible that things today are exactly the same as they were in 1965 – they really aren’t anywhere else in the country; why would they be there?

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  209. Also, your comment #210 appears to be attached to the wrong thread.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  210. I took Derbyshire’s piece to be a satire that came off wrong.
    Comment by Alvin H. Belt — 4/10/2012 @ 1:51 pm

    – Well, that makes ONE of you.

    Icy (8965e6)

  211. Since Justified’s season finale, is coming up, can someone explain where Quarles is from, certainly not
    Detroit.

    narciso (5fca68)

  212. Aphrael – things can always get worse. I don’t know much about Watts except that it is notorious for remaining a hellhole, though its demographics have altered somewhat I think in recent years. It’s still super poor and plagued by gangs and crime.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  213. Thank you so very much for writing this. I was utterly appalled by what Derbyshire had written. Your post is a superb explanation of why it was racist – and – why ugly stereotypes about race are so very wrong.

    I am out of town taking care of my aging parents. I have posted very little on my blog in recent weeks. Nevertheless – I posted what you wrote. It’s important – and again, I thank you.

    Peg (2192ad)

  214. The ’65 riots were forty seven years ago. It’s simply not credible that things today are exactly the same as they were in 1965 – they really aren’t anywhere else in the country; why would they be there?

    Comment by aphrael

    Good point. It would be interesting to hear how things are now. Much changed?

    Yep, post #210 was meant for the other thread. That’s what happens when I comment after a long day in the Salt Mines.

    Colonel Haiku (d207d8)

  215. Quarles was mos def disarmed in that last episode.

    Colonel Haiku (d207d8)

  216. “Prosecutors don’t want to prosecute tough cases. With what they think are bad witnesses.”

    I recall reading some time ago, that there are areas where the gang presence is so pervasive that the police cannot get anyone to be a witness to anything, unless of course the witness is following the gang line. I believe one of the areas was in Boston.

    davod (8bf616)

  217. ______________________________________________

    (1) I didn’t say “Try traveling through Watts and Compton sometime. There are a hell of a lot of decent and law-abiding people there. Who are put off by all the drug dealing and lawlessness that pervades too much of their community.” That was Patterico’s comment,

    Speaking of which, I sense the preferred reaction to that is supposed to be along the lines of “all the good people have to suffer in silence.” Or “the decent folks struggle to make a good situation out of bad.” Or “it’s not fair to paint a neighborhood with a broad brush.” Or something like that.

    There’s also the phrase: “a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged.”

    But in the case of most of the people in areas like Compton or Watts, no matter how bad, corrupt, and screwed-up their communities become or remain, they — without fail — vote for the same liberal politicians, for the same leftist organizations and policies.

    It’s tough to sympathize with people when they, in effect, are their own worst enemy. When they’re the ones who incubate even more felonious behavior by nurturing a soft-headed judicial system kept in place by left-leaning voting habits.

    Mark (411533)

  218. I recall reading some time ago, that there are areas where the gang presence is so pervasive that the police cannot get anyone to be a witness to anything, unless of course the witness is following the gang line. I believe one of the areas was in Boston.

    The other areas are: everywhere else there are gangs. This is daily life for a gang prosecutor.

    Patterico (feda6b)

  219. _____________________________________________

    The following is one reason why a portion of the observations of a writer like Derbyshire isn’t due merely to hype, garden-variety bigotry, or unfair character assassination.

    While hard, cold reality isn’t flattering or pleasant, it is made much worse because of the dishonest, two-faced, insincere nature of “limousine liberalism.”

    latimes.com, April 10:

    A black student in California is three times more likely to be suspended than a white student, a disparity that is much higher in some school systems in the state.

    In the 2009-10 school year, about 18% of black students were suspended, compared with 7% of Latinos, 6% of whites and 3% of Asians. The overall suspension rate was 5.2%.

    Among the state’s larger school systems, Stockton Unified stood out for suspending 38% of black male students, according to the federal data on which the study was based. But other minority students also were suspended: 19% of Latino males, 23% of white males and 13% of Asian males.

    Losen and other experts cited such reasons for suspension as defiance, dress-code violations, repeated tardiness, even chewing gum.
    In interviews, hard-pressed teachers — and often students and parents — have expressed relief when a disruptive student can be removed from a classroom, especially in an era of larger class sizes and reduced support services.

    The issue is not one of large urban school systems alone. Manteca Unified, south of Stockton, suspended 60% of black students, 30% of Latinos, 33% of whites and 28% of Asians. Overall, one in three students went home for misbehavior.

    The racial discrepancy also existed at Los Angeles Unified, where 23% of black males were suspended, compared with 7% of Latino males and 6% of white males. A study earlier this year by another group, using the same data set, found that L.A. Unified suspended black students at a disproportionately higher rate than the nation’s other largest school systems.

    Mark (411533)

  220. can someone kill the spammers, please?

    aphrael (bb82ea)

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