Patterico's Pontifications

3/26/2012

Report: Trayvon Martin Was the Aggressor, According to the Evidence

Filed under: General,Obama,Race — Patterico @ 6:24 pm

The Orlando Sentinel reports:

With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him bloody and battered, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel.

That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.

The newspaper elaborates on Zimmerman’s story:

Trayvon was visiting his father’s fiancée, who lived there. He had been suspended from school in Miami after being found with an empty marijuana baggie.

. . . .

Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, “Well, you do now” or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police.

Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police.

Zimmerman began yelling for help.

As well as the available corroborating evidence:

Several witnesses heard those cries, and there has been a dispute about whether they came from Zimmerman or Trayvon.

Lawyers for Trayvon’s family say it was Trayvon, but police say their evidence indicates it was Zimmerman.

One witness, who has since talked to local television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him — and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.

Zimmerman then shot Trayvon once in the chest at very close range, according to authorities.

When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.

I, for one, will not tolerate facts getting in the way of my narrative. I demand that the facts be changed to conform to my pre-determined beliefs.

BY THE WAY: Remember: Obama told us, “If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.”

OK. Would he act like him?

I remember the last time Obama waded into a racially charged public controversy. It turned out that the facts were not quite the way they had been initially portrayed.

He may end looking stupid . . . again.

Maybe one of these days he’ll learn to keep his mouth shut and let the facts in a criminal case come out?

Nah . . .

1,311 Responses to “Report: Trayvon Martin Was the Aggressor, According to the Evidence”

  1. Racists

    Patterico (feda6b)

  2. Well there was the baggy; and there was the graffiti. There was also getting caught with a backpack with 12 pieces of women’s jewelry and a burgalr tool in it. That does not add up to an excuse to blow the kid away; on the other hand it does indicate that Trayvon was not the little angel he’s portrayed as.

    Comanche Voter (dc4fc0)

  3. Racists

    JD (e5c06b)

  4. It makes me thing Z’s description on the 911 call might have been accurate, though. Looked high (plausible now) wandering a bit, peering in cars and homes.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  5. I have held back on commenting on this case until more facts have come forth. I write only to state that is local matter which begs the question – why is the president of the country weighing in on a local matter, on top of speaking before he has sufficient facts to form a opinion. Just a tad bit inappropriate.

    joe (93323e)

  6. Racists, per se.

    Paul (8be54f)

  7. A media advisory from police department says, “The information in the article is consistent with the information provided to the State Attorney’s office”. http://tinyurl.com/cegupbu

    Sue (6623c5)

  8. Truthist! Evidencist! Notrelyingoninitialreportsist!
    — Surls

    Icy (71f821)

  9. And then there is the allegation (Tweet by older brother Srephen?) that the current 10 day suspension from school may be for …that Stephen Martin tweeted a message to Trayvon on February 21st that read “yu ain’t tell me yu swung on a bus driver.”

    I keep avoiding the Twitter Vortex–But it appears that all the big cases here involve people beclowning themselves on it…

    BfC (fd87e7)

  10. Tawana Brawley.

    Kevin Stafford (1d1b9e)

  11. I’ss see your tawana brawley and I’ll raise you a Crown Heights…

    Trayvon Martin’s parents heading to Capitol Hill Tuesday. http://t.co/ocm2j4JU

    Colonel Haiku (7fd04b)

  12. What domyou mean “looking” stupid? That’s like saying the sky “looks” blue.

    Psalti (17dccc)

  13. i don’t know what the truth is of what happened, of course, but i’m disgusted at the twisting of the kid’s killing into a left/right issue.

    the sentinel story seems to be sourced from leaked police dept sources because of the onslaught of pro-trayvon stuff. BUT, the very first news reports about his death noted the existence of the anonymous witness “john” who says he saw trayvon on top of zimmerman from his window, left and came back, and saw them reversed. this is nothing new. i’m not sure why the “john” witness story has been ignored for so long and not mentioned by the police. i think the police department is under tremendous heat right now and needs to justify their original decision not to arrest zimmerman.

    milowent (0f8248)

  14. Critical Race Theory meets Force Multiplier.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  15. When he came back the kid was dead is what I heard.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  16. To exaggerate is to weaken. The campaign to convince me Trayvon was a mild, barely teenaged innocent victim of racist brutality and prejudice is to blame for any bias I have now. Make stuff up and I’ll think you have a point that only deceit can make.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  17. milowent,

    I agree the recent reports are probably coming from police leaks. However, the way I read the earlier reports (and I could be wrong), the witness John said Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, and he only saw Zimmerman on top after Trayvon was shot and killed:

    “The guy on the bottom, who I believe had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help, help.’ I told him to stop, I was calling 911,” John told the TV station. Zimmerman was wearing red.

    “When I got upstairs and looked down, the person that was on top beating up the other guy was laying in the grass. And I believe he was dead at that point,” the eyewitness claimed.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  18. And the Miami Herald reported that Martin had been suspended because he was found to have a baggie with marijuana residue in it and …

    Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.

    Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

    “Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.

    Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

    SPQR (26be8b)

  19. Yeah that’s almost as bad as impugning a 93 year old black woman who got shot by police in Atlanta before all of the facts came out, right Patterico?

    Idiot!

    Manoman (5a6f66)

  20. —why is the president of the country weighing in on a local matter, on top of speaking before he has sufficient facts to form a opinion–

    I guess if I were allowed to choose, I’d rather have the President sticking his nose into local law enforcement than discussing what he can give to the Russian President after Obama gets reelected.

    Red (7b5f67)

  21. Well, there’s ^^^ some constructive criticism

    Icy (71f821)

  22. #21 was for #19

    Icy (71f821)

  23. Martin tweeted under the handle “NO_LIMIT_NIGGA,”

    — A prince, to be sure.

    Icy (71f821)

  24. #18 you did see “No evidence ever surfaced that the jewelry was stolen.” Right? This is a case for a court of law.

    tifosa (f57603)

  25. Good. Now we will all be relieved when the New Black Panthers rescind their offer on Zimmerman.

    Or maybe not.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  26. The court of public opinion has already made its decision.

    The court of law also will make a decision.

    Someone is dead. Manoman seems to think a single life is not as important as his political opinion regardless of the victim or circumstances.

    Everyone knows the players involved.

    Nonetheless, two people made a series of bad decisions that resulted in a death.

    If Zimmerman is culpable, so be it.

    Justice is justice. Trying to make it something other than a circumstance about which side is the most correct or outraged is morally bankrupt.

    We have laws and courts for a reason. If we decide to forgo those for emotion, we are lost.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  27. I haven’t checked, but you did include Cutcher’s statement right? Since you’re clearly holding some sort of internal investigation….

    tifosa (f57603)

  28. tifosa would make a great cop. Teenage boy with a collection of women’s jewelry? Nothing to see; move along.

    Step aside, Officer Barbrady! There’s a new sheriff in South Park.

    Icy (71f821)

  29. What was Trayvon’s “bad decision?”

    tifosa (f57603)

  30. Tiffyosa is just butthurt because Huntsman quit.

    JD (318f81)

  31. hhhmmm, yeah, I see your “cop work” Icy.

    tifosa (f57603)

  32. Punching strangers for no reason tends to be a bad decision.

    JD (318f81)

  33. Aww, my Jon waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! (sniff, sniff) hey I’ve had to move on…

    tifosa (f57603)

  34. You know he punched?

    tifosa (f57603)

  35. The circus is in town, apparently. And just think: someone who wants to play troll games about dead kids. Great.

    Simon Jester (7a7a69)

  36. You know he punched because the guy who shot him said he punched, or was it the anonymous witness?

    tifosa (f57603)

  37. tifosa:

    You know nothing of the circumstances. Neither do I.

    Someone is dead. Your speculation is as worthless as mine.

    Regardless, bad decisions were made, because someone is dead. It’s as simple as that.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  38. I’m not speculating. I’m saying take it to court. period

    tifosa (f57603)

  39. Tiffyosa apparently cannot read ..

    With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him bloody and battered, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel.

    That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.

    JD (318f81)

  40. Explain how your take it to trial let a jury figure it out standard is consistent with the principles of our legal system.

    JD (318f81)

  41. tifosa:

    No, you are speculating. Were you there? Did you see the incident?

    You are speculating and you’re opinion is worthless.

    A court will decide. It may decide in the way you wish, but it does not make you anymore wise in the circumstances of the homicide. You only know what is reported and how it fits your view of the circumstances.

    why is that so hard to understand?

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  42. The self-appointed Neighborhood Watch guy got out of the safety of his car and chased the kid, or so he said. Kid ends up dead. The statement is a statement, not given under oath. What was the evidence, bruises on the kids knuckles?

    tifosa (f57603)

  43. btw Neighborhood Watch is NOT about weapons. We live in a NW area. People CALL!

    tifosa (f57603)

  44. tifosa,

    There is evidence Martin hit Zimmerman: Zimmerman’s statement that he was hit and injuries consistent with that claim, and one or more witnesses, including a witness named John, who says he saw Martin hitting Zimmerman.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  45. “Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help.

    The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.”

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T3EodjEgc0k

    Hey, sometimes those witnesses need the cops to tell them “no, that’s not what you saw.” Otherwise, they might get confused and say the dead 17-year old unarmed kid was scared of the huge armed guy who shot him. But the police are on the case to prevent that, and clearly, they’re doing a heck of a job!

    SamR (d66b98)

  46. What did I “speculate?” nada

    tifosa (f57603)

  47. Goodnight. Nonsense like SamR an tiffyosa is what this world has come to. Why do you the white Hispanics?

    JD (318f81)

  48. Again, you are speculating.

    Look, you can believe whatever you want. Is Zimmerman guilty? I don’t know and neither do you.

    You do know, however, that you are applying the same standards of lynch mobs.

    So much for due process according to the left: Let’s just kill the bastard and let God sort it out.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  49. Goodnight. Nonsense like SamR an tiffyosa is what this world has come to. Why do you hate white Hispanics? Why does it seem like the left wants racial tension?

    JD (318f81)

  50. Here’s a question…

    The cops mentioned a bunch of break-ins when they first reported this incident…

    I’m just wondering if, by pure coincidence, the break-ins have stopped, or at least diminished.

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  51. Yeh Sam, I read that. “The teacher” that thecop “corrected” may have been Cutcher. She said it was the boy screaming, and the screaming stopped when the gunshot occurred.

    tifosa (f57603)

  52. I really dislike people who put so much faith in the government except when it doesn’t react the way they wish.

    Summary executions are OK when they agree, but God forbid that some people are inconvenienced when they don’t

    What a useless waste of bandwidth tifosa is.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  53. What would that prove? The breakins stopping means nothing.

    tifosa (f57603)

  54. , and the screaming stopped when the gunshot occurred.

    When Zimmerman shot the person that punched him and beat his head against the sidewalk, he would have no reason to continue to scream.

    JD (318f81)

  55. pobres tifosa
    es una mala cosa
    extraña mujer

    Colonel Haiku (86f91f)

  56. como se dice extraña en ingles Col?

    tifosa (f57603)

  57. The irony of the mob of leftists screaming for a show trial against the known evidence whilst they complain of unmerited prosecutions of chosen “minorities” is an obscenity.

    Ed from SFV (f5034a)

  58. ooooooooh strange?

    tifosa (f57603)

  59. Known evidence?

    tifosa (f57603)

  60. “Still, Trayvon had nonviolent behavioral issues in school, and on the day he was killed, he had been suspended for 10 days from Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School in North Miami-Dade.

    “He was not suspended for something dealing with violence or anything like that. It wasn’t a crime he committed, but he was in an unauthorized area [on school property],” Martin said, declining to offer more details.

    So… actually, it was a crime he committed. Possessing weed on school grounds is a crime. Tray lies about where he got the jewelry. Wonder where he learned that.

    It’s tragic when a parent loses a child, but it’s no excuse for telling lies.

    Auntie Fraud (2f38aa)

  61. “She said it was the boy screaming, and the screaming stopped when the gunshot occurred”

    tiffy – How did she know what the boy sounded like?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  62. Wow, auntie fraud, well-named :^)

    tifosa (f57603)

  63. a boy voice vs a man voice?

    Court, under oath.

    tifosa (f57603)

  64. She couldn’t distinguish the voices but the anonymous “John” could? maybe she’s lying, maybe he is, maybe Zimmerman is. The only one we KNOW isn’t lying is Trayvon.

    tifosa (f57603)

  65. So, since tifosa is the judge, jury and executioner, what should its decision be?

    Since tifosa is omniscient and his or her opinion cannot be questioned, why is it not running for office so we can all enjoy the benefit of its superior intellect?

    What is the point, Oh Lord tifosa? Enlighten us to your wisdom so we can all genuflect in your general direction?

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  66. “a boy voice vs a man voice?”

    tiffy – If she didn’t see it, how can she identify the voice? It sounded like a mature scream? It sounded like a black scream, not a white hispanic scream?

    I want details.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  67. I’m pretty sure local prosecutors would love to have evidence to charge Zimmerman- just to get the protestors off their backs.

    But they haven’t pressed charges. Is it because they are racist? Or because they don’t have the evidence to present a winning case against him?

    I think I know which one it is.

    Auntie Fraud (2f38aa)

  68. There’s a whole lot of speculation going on around here.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  69. The self-appointed Neighborhood Watch guy
    — Wait a minute; he wasn’t even a legit member of the Neighborhood Watch? Where did you obtain this exclusive, tifosa?

    What would that prove? The breakins stopping means nothing.
    — Perhaps it means the word is getting around.

    yeah, I see your “cop work” Icy.
    — And the “cop work” I engaged in was WHAT?

    Icy (71f821)

  70. Who did I execute?

    tifosa (f57603)

  71. if the gloves dont fit you must aquit

    OJ (f43229)

  72. Buh-bye Tiffy

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  73. Martin tweeted under the handle “NO_LIMIT_NIGGA,”

    – A prince, to be sure. (Looked very Detective Crocker to me Icy)

    tifosa (f57603)

  74. (Looked very Detective Cracker to me Icy)

    JD (318f81)

  75. JD~ no more auntie fraud?

    tifosa (f57603)

  76. Hey, caught Rmoney fever yet?

    tifosa (f57603)

  77. Who did I execute?

    Comment by tifosa — 3/26/2012 @ 8:23 pm

    No one, tifosa, no one.

    I don’t know why you post here or why you posted on this thread.

    I do know what you are, though.

    Some people say “Never, again.”

    I would like to say you are the person they are referring to, but you are not.

    You are simply tifosa, posting on Patterico.com.

    Nothing more or less.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  78. wow, profound. Thanks AG

    tifosa (f57603)

  79. JD~ no more auntie fraud?

    Comment by tifosa — 3/26/2012 @ 8:33 pm

    That was not me. That was an untruth you uttered.

    JD (318f81)

  80. The only one we KNOW isn’t lying is Trayvon.

    — Really? Seems kinda disrespectful for them to stand his casket up on end

    Icy (71f821)

  81. You are a funny person, though.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  82. Yeh, that’s just me JD, pathological liar.

    tifosa (f57603)

  83. Yeh, that’s just me JD, pathological liar.

    Comment by tifosa — 3/26/2012 @ 8:39 pm

    You said it, not me. I just noted what you said was not true. Demonstrably so.

    JD (318f81)

  84. Great. This was an awful thread I thought though. I was hoping for better from The PattericoPrivateEyes

    tifosa (f57603)

  85. “Great. This was an awful thread I thought though. I was hoping for better from The PattericoPrivateEyes”

    And on that note… let’s have amusical break .

    Still think this is an awful thread? Not anymore

    -Not JD

    Auntie Fraud (2f38aa)

  86. tifosa:

    I think all the girls are digging what you’re saying.

    Sorry about the disappointment since you totally pwned us and all.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  87. “If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.”

    I call bullsh*t. Trayvon Martin’s ears were normal-sized.

    Colonel Haiku (86f91f)

  88. Well of course, whether real gangsta or just a wannabe, adopting a screen name like that displays nuthin’ but class.

    Icy (71f821)

  89. No siempre pueden obtener lo que desea, tiffy. Adios, muchacha.

    Colonel Haiku (86f91f)

  90. adios Col Hasta luego

    tifosa (f57603)

  91. Best tweet award: “Now that the hoodie and hijab have joined the short skirt as “asking for it” clothing, does anyone care to speculate on what’s next?”

    tifosa (f57603)

  92. “Pero si usted intenta a veces conseguir lo que necesitas”

    – Miguel Jagger

    Colonel Haiku (86f91f)

  93. k, H&O ended….

    tifosa (f57603)

  94. k, high school spanish fails me….

    tifosa (f57603)

  95. But if you…

    tifosa (f57603)

  96. Why do you want to lynch a Hispanic tiffy?

    JD (318f81)

  97. AND Trayvon looks like he was born in America.
    [I keed! I keed!]

    Icy (71f821)

  98. Just want a trial

    tifosa (f57603)

  99. & look into what’s going on with that PD

    tifosa (f57603)

  100. Reading Judd Legum for insight ‘is no way to go through life,

    narciso (83bb81)

  101. You are demanding a trial, and assuming guilt, ahead of the evidence. Again, explain how your try him and let a jury sort it out nonsense is consistent with our legal system.

    Kthxby

    Goodnight

    JD (318f81)

  102. “Now that the hoodie and hijab have joined the short skirt as “asking for it” clothing, does anyone care to speculate on what’s next?”

    — Wearing an Ad Hom Troll t-shirt?

    Icy (71f821)

  103. demanding? assuming guilt?

    tifosa (f57603)

  104. hah!

    tifosa (f57603)

  105. There should be a trial only if there is evidence to prove the case, tifosa.

    You seem to want to trial regardless of whether there is evidence to prove the case.

    That’s not how the system works, and most people are glad of it.

    Patterico (feda6b)

  106. Just want a trial
    Comment by tifosa — 3/26/2012 @ 8:58 pm

    — Then you had better hope and pray that the Panthers DON’T get their man.

    Icy (71f821)

  107. _________________________________________________

    What would that prove? The breakins stopping means nothing.

    If I were a criminal, I’d love living in a neighborhood full of people who thought and acted like you. People with soft touches, big hearts, teary eyes, tolerance, compassion, big hearts, sophistication, soft touches — and did I say compassion? — sophistication, teary eyes, big hearts. And teary eyes. And tolerance. And lots of compassion.

    So liberal, and so dumb and so (purposefully?) naive.

    And ironically enough, and in reality, not necessarily even truly humane, compassionate or decent. After all, nothing is more pathetic and dangerous — and unkind and heartless, and even ruthless — than folks who not only have a tough time identifying the good and bad in other humans or situations, but, worse of all, all too easily end up transposing the two.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  108. Yeah, I do.

    tifosa (f57603)

  109. I mean yeah i do hope the Panthers don’t “get their man”

    tifosa (f57603)

  110. So, you wouldn’t mind if the Panthers exacted some street justice. Nice.

    Icy (71f821)

  111. Icy, I said just the opposite.

    tifosa (f57603)

  112. But valiant effort

    tifosa (f57603)

  113. Jeez. Make up your mind!

    Icy (71f821)

  114. You didn’t even get honorable mention…shame…

    tifosa (f57603)

  115. Although it was laughable that Fox took the hoodies out of their online store

    tifosa (f57603)

  116. honestly..nutty

    tifosa (f57603)

  117. The self-appointed Neighborhood Watch guy

    — How did he ‘appoint’ himself, again?

    Icy (71f821)

  118. “You know he punched because the guy who shot him said he punched, or was it the anonymous witness?”

    Apparently only one guy actually saw part of the struggle, and he’s saying that he saw Martin punching on Zimmerman, and Zimmerman was hollering for help.

    So, I think we have to accept that, until it can be proven otherwise. and, that takes precedence over what some woman thought she heard (at least I believe it does).

    Personally, I don’t think that information is especially relevant, but according to the police, as reported by various media outlets, that is what the witness says.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  119. Ah, the mind of a lefty. To research is to attack; to report is to ‘smear’.

    Icy (71f821)

  120. Think Progress needs Lee Fang back.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  121. Accept an anonymous “witness” who never called for help when it occurred?? Put the guy under oath

    tifosa (f57603)

  122. are you kidding? You have to accept an anonymous “witness” over a woman who gave her name?
    what?

    tifosa (f57603)

  123. neither of them are necessarily credible

    tifosa (f57603)

  124. The guy says that he saw something but at the time he didn’t call the police? and she did

    tifosa (f57603)

  125. David, When you paraphrase you might want to be a bit more accurated, what the Orlando Sentinel reported is this:

    With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him bloody and battered, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel.

    That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.

    The paper then went on to report:

    Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

    Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, “Well, you do now” or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police.

    Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police.

    Zimmerman began yelling for help.

    That’s a bit stronger than your paraphrase: Apparently only one guy actually saw part of the struggle, and he’s saying that he saw Martin punching on Zimmerman, and Zimmerman was hollering for help.

    labcatcher (61737c)

  126. “Trayvon Martin Was the Aggressor, According to the Evidence”

    The only evidence (I’ve seen) that points to that is Zimmerman’s claim, and that’s only if you ignore everything that took place up to the second that the physical altercation took place.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  127. Whoops, ” a bit more accurate” not accurated.

    labcatcher (61737c)

  128. So did Trayvon have bruised knuckles? Injuries on his hands?

    tifosa (f57603)

  129. or anywhere else on him?

    tifosa (f57603)

  130. What evidence?

    tifosa (f57603)

  131. Injuries on Zimmerman? is that it?

    tifosa (f57603)

  132. “David, When you paraphrase you might want to be a bit more accurated, what the Orlando Sentinel reported is this:”

    As I stated, I’m not talking about what Zimmerman claimed, I’m talking about what the one eyewitness (that I know of) said.

    And, that is what he said…according to the media.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  133. they drug-tested trayvon but not zimmerman? and z is the shooter cmon kids, step up

    tifosa (f57603)

  134. The only evidence (I’ve seen) that points to that is Zimmerman’s claim, and that’s only if you ignore everything that took place up to the second that the physical altercation took place.

    Come on David, a broken nose and bloodied back of the head are evidence of what, a waltz gone bad?

    labcatcher (61737c)

  135. they one eye-witness is the anonymous guy “john?” is that it?? REALLY?

    tifosa (f57603)

  136. Sooo tifosa –what’ve you been up to since you last graced the Patterico site with your presence and sterling repartee?

    elissa (dea0c2)

  137. So the kids hands are torn up, right? oh yeah.. HE”S DEAD!!

    tifosa (f57603)

  138. Injuries on Zimmerman? is that it?

    Comment by tifosa — 3/26/2012 @ 9:36 pm

    What would expect to have as evidence in a battery?

    labcatcher (61737c)

  139. Injuries on the kids hands. Forensics proving they were sustained the way Zimmerman described

    tifosa (f57603)

  140. blood where it’s supposed to be

    tifosa (f57603)

  141. “Come on David, a broken nose and bloodied back of the head are evidence of what, a waltz gone bad?”

    In this case, the statement made by the eyewitness appears to be evidence that Martin was the better fistfighter. And, that’s about it.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  142. if he had an injury on the back of his head, it was injured on what?

    tifosa (f57603)

  143. the boy had skittles and a soda can

    tifosa (f57603)

  144. Trayvon was a fighter??

    tifosa (f57603)

  145. Says who?

    tifosa (f57603)

  146. The man with the gun took that beating? prove it

    tifosa (f57603)

  147. Are his hands clean?
    Specifically, what forensics would show who the aggressor was?

    The coroner will be able to determine the body position of Martin when he was shot, and the condition of his hands. Are the autopsy results public yet, do you know?

    labcatcher (61737c)

  148. EXACTLY

    tifosa (f57603)

  149. Dave Surls:

    The only evidence (I’ve seen) that points to that is Zimmerman’s claim, and that’s only if you ignore everything that took place up to the second that the physical altercation took place.

    If Patterico’s Orlando Sentinel report is correct, it isn’t just Zimmerman’s statement that supports his claim. He had injuries to his nose and head that were consistent with his claim and were verified by the police at the time:

    When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.

    Paramedics gave him first aid but he said he did not need to go to the hospital. He got medical care the next day.

    In addition, one witness identified as “John” claims he saw Zimmerman and Martin fighting, and Zimmerman was underneath and yelling for help. Another witness, Austin Brown, said he saw Zimmerman moaning on the ground.

    This doesn’t prove Zimmerman is telling the truth but it is evidence that corroborates his claim.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  150. so why wasn’t this investigated in the first MONTH???

    tifosa (f57603)

  151. Do you see that THIS IS THE POINT!

    tifosa (f57603)

  152. exactly drj

    tifosa (f57603)

  153. they one eye-witness is the anonymous guy “john?” is that it?? REALLY?
    Comment by tifosa — 3/26/2012 @ 9:38 pm

    — Who is more believable: the guy that wants to protect his identity (and limits his statement to just what he saw) or the woman that went on tv and offered conclusions based on what she thinks happened?

    Icy (71f821)

  154. so it’s your son, brother, cousin…

    tifosa (f57603)

  155. and weeks go by, the whole thing is dropped. Until national media

    tifosa (f57603)

  156. EXACTLY

    Comment by tifosa — 3/26/2012 @ 9:50 pm

    WTH does that mean? Yes, you know the results or no, you have no idea and are condemning Zimmerman strictly to be contrary?

    labcatcher (61737c)

  157. Thank goodness for the national media.

    elissa (dea0c2)

  158. so “John” is telling the truth?/

    tifosa (f57603)

  159. the boy had skittles and a soda can
    Comment by tifosa — 3/26/2012 @ 9:47 pm

    Ah-ha!!!

    Icy (71f821)

  160. Seems that Trayvon was “standing his ground.”

    I’m sure Chucky Schumer will issue a press release condemning such racist and violent behavior tomorrow.

    shipwreckedcrew (e57b7e)

  161. The point is NO INVESTIGATION a deceased kid and NO INVESTIGATION

    tifosa (f57603)

  162. Regarding the “anonymous guy John,” I doubt he’s anonymous to the police. The media has reported that John told his story to the police so it’s likely his full identity is known to them.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  163. There is no evidence I’ve seen that Trayvon did anything WHAT ARE THE FORENSICS????

    tifosa (f57603)

  164. “In addition, one witness identified as “John” claims he saw Zimmerman and Martin fighting, and Zimmerman was underneath and yelling for help.”

    Yeah, that’s exactly what I just said.

    “This doesn’t prove Zimmerman is telling the truth”

    I know that. That’s one of the points I’ve been trying to drive home.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  165. OK. Would he act like him?

    Of course he would. Spoiled rich brat raised with no moral instruction and no sense of proper (i.e., mature) boundaries for behavior.

    He’d be no different from the kids in
    Cruel Intentions
    and probably even worse, since he’d have a massive chip on his shoulder put there by Michelle, if not The Great Big Zero himself.

    IGotBupkis, Three Time Winner of the Silver Sow Award (8e2a3d)

  166. Everyone who has watched MMA knows that the guy on the ground who is on the receiving end of the “ground and pound” is really winning the fight and its just a matter of time before the referee steps in and stops the fight because of the battering being taken by the hands of the guy on top.

    shipwreckedcrew (e57b7e)

  167. Everyone who has watched MMA knows that the guy on the ground who is on the receiving end of the “ground and pound” is really winning the fight and its just a matter of time before the referee steps in and stops the fight because of the battering being taken by the hands of the guy on top.

    shipwreckedcrew (e57b7e)

  168. What makes you think there’s been no investigation, tifosa? The police have gathered evidence that I assume was turned over to the prosecutors because the Seminole County state’s attorney announced last week that a grand jury will be convened:

    The state attorney in Seminole County, Fla., said that a grand jury will be convened to investigate the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, the unarmed 17-year-old whose killing at the hands of a neighborhood watch captain in an Orlando suburb has become national news.

    “I share in the desire of the family and the community to accurately collect and evaluate all the facts surrounding the tragic death of Trayvon Martin,” Norm Wolfinger, the local state prosecutor, said in a statement. “The public is entitled to no less than a thorough, deliberate, and just review of the facts. We intend to honor that commitment.”

    The DOJ and FBI are also investigating this. My guess is their focus will be on whether it’s a federal hate crime.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  169. they one eye-witness is the anonymous guy “john?” is that it?? REALLY?

    Comment by tifosa — 3/26/2012 @ 9:38 pm

    Come on, get real. Crimes quite often are without witnesses, it’s because people go to jail for doing them. One is big plus.

    Is he anonymous, or is he a guy named John? If he has a name you can’t claim he’s anonymous.

    I would bet the Police have all his particulars. Common sense would keep his true name out of the press (not an unusual thing in notorious cases), the nbpp has already threatened Zimmerman.

    labcatcher (61737c)

  170. Why does tifosa keep saying there was no investigation? Why does she pretend she knows what is in the autopsy results and in the police files? How can she know who the police may have contacted and who contacted the police and who all they interviewed and what forensic evidence they have collected and analyzed?

    elissa (dea0c2)

  171. there was nothing before public scrutiny, national media

    tifosa (f57603)

  172. i mean no investigation for the first few weeks

    tifosa (f57603)

  173. Ya know, I heard that they found Skittles in Al Cowlings’ Bronco, too. Guess that’s why Fuhrman had to plant those Jolly Ranchers in Kato’s armoire.

    Icy (71f821)

  174. I’m sure the forensic evidence will be developed in time, tifosa. Toxicology tests take time and they won’t publicize final results before all the tests are concluded.

    Dave – It sounded to me like you’re saying there’s no evidence other than Zimmerman’s claim about what happened. I don’t think that’s true. There is some evidence corroborating his claim. I’m sorry if I’ve misunderstood your position.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  175. i pretended i knew something? where?

    tifosa (f57603)

  176. they didn’t test zimmerman. There’s no tox testing on him

    tifosa (f57603)

  177. State AG stepped down?

    tifosa (f57603)

  178. I give up. Dave and Tifosa can have it their way. Let’s subject Zimmerman to the expense and hassle of a trial, disrupting his and his family’s life for however long it takes regardless of what we know to this point.
    I am going to bed.

    Scott, DRJ, SPQR and the rest, good luck. I don’t believe that any logical assumption or listing of the corroborating circumstances (injuries that match independent wit statements) are going to change their minds.

    labcatcher (61737c)

  179. There is often quite a big difference between what is in a newspaper story and what’s in the real world. All sorts of thing, that people actually in contact with the facts know, do not get picked up, at least for sometime, or only glimmers get picked up, and you may have to dig deep through reports to find them -and they get picked up, sometimes, and then lost.

    One thing we can say from this, is that things can’t go anywhere, until people get deposed and put under oath. Not that everybody will tell the truth but at least we’ll get some clear.

    This got started because the boy’s father (and mother) were just told that the boy had been shot and killed and there would be no further investigation. But the boy had no criminal record, and his parents didn’t know him to start up a fight, and he had no gun, and he had nothing stolen or unexpected on him, so he’d done nothing, as it turned out, except take a long walk, and buy a pack of Skittles and an iced tea, from a place some distance away, and walk back home, and the whole incident happened very close to his father’s fiancee’s townhouse, where he was staying, and where his father was living. Everyone seems to agree these are the facts.

    There was no further inquiry by the authorities – there was nothing.

    Even this version of the facts may not be correct. Maybe they did get a good explanation. And didn’t believe it.

    Sammy Finkelman (6aaed6)

  180. Based on these reports, I suspect that the lad decided to go hard back at Zimmerman. Because he knew he could, and in the past had done so with little or no repercussions.
    And he was probably also in the mood to do so.
    I really don’t care about the school record, bacause it still puts the kid at about a 3 on the gangster scale. Out of a 10.
    Dime a dozen.
    Knowing that it works about 99% of the time against these soft and normally passive types from the “Gated communities”, as well as teachers, store employees, and other authority figures, these folks can usually get what they want.
    Fake charm and humility; or real menace and anger. Whatever works.
    In this case Martin did not get what he expected, and it ended bad. Neither did Zimmerman, though.
    They both made choices.
    No winners.

    Andrew (a27b5f)

  181. I think the guy ought to be charged (with a few things), but if the Grand Jury says no, and the state and federal investigators say no, then that’s the way it shall be.

    I might or might not agree with what they say, but I’ll abide by it, and pretty much everyone else will to, I reckon.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  182. “i mean no investigation for the first few weeks”

    tiffy – Proof please.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  183. –There was nothing before public scrutiny, national media–

    –i mean no investigation for the first few weeks–

    Those are very strong accusations. And tifosa– you know this how? I assume you are not privy to the police files. Or to privileged communications between the coroner and law enforcement.

    What are your thoughts on the Fast and Furious investigation by the way. Any insider information on that?

    elissa (dea0c2)

  184. “Dave – It sounded to me like you’re saying there’s no evidence other than Zimmerman’s claim about what happened.”

    There’s tons of evidence. I just don’t think it points to a justifiable homicide.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  185. “they didn’t test zimmerman. There’s no tox testing on him”

    The police announced this?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  186. Right on Dave and Sammy.
    Andrew’s “Based on these reports, I suspect that the lad decided to go hard back at Zimmerman. Because he knew he could, and in the past had done so with little or no repercussions.” sounds like at LEAST racist stereotyping
    (but hey, I decided that Andrew decided to go hard because he’s gotten away with it before with little or no repercussions.)

    tifosa (f57603)

  187. “the whole incident happened very close to his father’s fiancee’s townhouse, where he was staying, and where his father was living. Everyone seems to agree these are the facts.

    There was no further inquiry by the authorities – there was nothing.”

    Sammy – Is the father’s fiance Nadia Kroger Milhouse?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  188. Okay, I understand that. Thanks, Dave.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  189. At first, early in the publicity about this story, it looked like George Zimmerman was someone wtith he worst characteristics of Barney Fife and Dirty Harry, but maybe it’s just Barney Fife in the wrong situation..

    Sammy Finkelman (6aaed6)

  190. ‘so “John” is telling the truth?’

    Allowing for the fact that eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable, I see no reason to doubt what he’s said.

    Unfortunately, what he saw really doesn’t tell us much about whether this is a case of self-defense or a murder.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  191. Dave — lets assume Zimmerman’s story is as is being reported, and that there is one or more witnesses that make the kid the aggressor, and on top of Zimmerman.

    What do you suggest he be charged with?

    Each crime has specific individual elements that need to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Its not up to the prosecutor to simply say “he deserves to be charged” and ignore the evidence.

    That’s how you get charges like the ones in the Duke Lacrosse case.

    shipwreckedcrew (e57b7e)

  192. Yeah, it seems to me they should have tox screened Zimmerman and it took a long time to id Martin if it’s true his father had called the police (and his phone) looking for him. That part baffles me a little.

    Although it seems like (I don’t know for a fact) the investigation was lacking, I hope Zimmerman only gets what is due.
    The Darhun Ravi case shows us what happens when we get into the “Somebody must pay!” mentality, complete with Presidential attention.

    MayBee (081489)

  193. Eyewitness identifications of strangers are being seen as less and less reliable.

    Eyewitness accounts of events that took place in front of them are quite reliable.

    shipwreckedcrew (e57b7e)

  194. Three pieces of advice for George Zimmerman: (1) Tape Al Sharpton’s MSNBC show, every night; (2) Tape Lawrence O’Donnell’s MSNBC show, every night; (3) FedEx tapes to libel atty.

    Kevin Stafford (1d1b9e)

  195. the police had his cellphone as well May. The whole thing is wierd… and neglectful.. at least..

    tifosa (f57603)

  196. “What do you suggest he be charged with?”

    Murder, stalking, misuse of 911 services.

    I wouldn’t hold out much hope for the stalking thing (because of the way the stalking statute is written), but i’d try it anyway.

    [note: released from moderation. –Stashiu]

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  197. Yeah, the police had the phone although I don’t know if they need some sort of warrant to check it out when it is in their possession. If not, it seems a really easy way to identify someone (or gather evidence).

    It seems to me, and this this is just an impression, that they strongly believed they had a dead punk who was dead because the neighborhood watch guy shot him out of self defense. That may be what happened, and it may not be, but it seems that was the angle from which they looked at this.

    MayBee (081489)

  198. I (like probably the rest of the commenters here) know nothing about the police identification and notification process for any death or how long it took in this case. But we do know Trayvon lived in another city and went to school in another city and likely all his IDs showed an address from another city and his phone was registered to another city and he was visiting someone in Sanford (his dad’s fiancée) with a different last name which the police may have had no knowledge of. No idea where his dad lives. So it sure seems to me that an identification and notification could have taken a little while. Yes?

    elissa (dea0c2)

  199. If he was blonde-haired, blue-eyed, crew cut with a letter jacket, with the SAME situation, would people say “punk?”

    tifosa (f57603)

  200. In many ways, it sounds like a tragic misunderstanding. A zealous neighborhood watchman who saw someone unfamiliar acting suspicious in a neighborhood which had recently experienced a rash of break ins.
    A teenager with a bit of an authority problem being followed by someone he didn’t know as he walked through an unfamiliar neighborhood.

    Once each was suspicious of the other, the justifications for their next actions must have made sense to each of them.

    MayBee (081489)

  201. soooo, did you hear the 911 tapes?

    [note: released from moderation. –Stashiu]

    tifosa (f57603)

  202. sorry–I meant to also add in my run-on sentence above that we don’t know what, if any ID’s he was carrying on his person that night besides that phone.

    elissa (dea0c2)

  203. If he was blonde-haired, blue-eyed, crew cut with a letter jacket, with the SAME situation, would people say “punk?”

    I’m saying punk because the police had just heard a situation describing a guy encountering a punk. So that’s what they thought they had.
    White kids can be punks, sure.
    Race doesn’t really enter the picture when it comes to punkdom.

    MayBee (081489)

  204. yeah, elissa, I’ve got to think an id would have made it easier to identify him, although it doesn’t always mean notifying next of kin is easy.
    The phone seems like it would have been a great way to identify him and contact family members, but I’m with you that I don’t really know the procedures. It just seems like a big miss. Or like there was an assumption being made. I wonder if someone in a car accident would have been identified/had their families notified faster.

    MayBee (081489)

  205. Interesting, tifosa, you put the white kid in a letter jacket. To me, that’s an admission the clothes do matter. What if Trayvon had been in a letter jacket? What if the white kid was in a hoodie with the hood up?
    It isn’t fair, but we look at the whole package when we assess people and feel suspicious. A group of teenagers talking and laughing? That gets a pass. A smaller group, mixed gender? That gets a pass. A single person on a quiet street at night? We will wonder. We won’t be suspicious of a girl, regardless of her race. We’ll wonder about a guy with his face covered more than the nicely dressed guy, regardless of his race.

    MayBee (081489)

  206. I haven’t read all the comments. It’s too late. From what I have read, this may well blow up in Obama’s face. The kid may well have had a sideline of burglary. I’m sure the father has gotten rid of all the loot by now but surprises still happen. If there was a neighborhood watch, were there security cameras ?

    Mike K (326cba)

  207. ______________________________________________

    Well, at least Trayvon’s mother has an entrepreneurial streak to her. Perhaps so entrepreneurial that she at least displays the gumption and good sense to make some coin off the concept of “no justice, no peace!!” I mean why should Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson hog the entire pie and grab all the glory? So kudos to her. And so heartwarming too.

    thesmokinggun.com: The mother of Trayvon Martin has filed two applications to secure trademarks containing her late son’s name, records show.

    Sybrina Fulton is seeking marks for the phrases “I Am Trayvon” and “Justice for Trayvon,” according to filings made last week with the United States Patent and Trademark Office. In both instances, Fulton, 46, is seeking the trademarks for use on “Digital materials, namely, CDs and DVDs featuring Trayvon Martin,” and other products.

    The March 21 USPTO applications, each of which cost $325, were filed by an Orlando, Florida law firm representing Fulton, whose first name is spelled “Sabrina” in the trademark records.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  208. as he walked through an unfamiliar gated neighborhood.

    FIFY.

    Mike K (326cba)

  209. ____________________________________________

    If he was blonde-haired, blue-eyed, crew cut with a letter jacket, with the SAME situation, would people say “punk?”

    By the same token, would you be doing quite as many back flips in trying to rationalize away the negatives of an alternative-reality version of Trayvon?

    In my case, if a blond-haired, blue-eyed version of Trayvon had a similarly troublemaking, rowdy background as the actual Trayvon appeared to have, I’d find my sympathy for him to be no greater and my disgust for him to be no lower.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  210. #200

    Well, they could have tried calling one of the numbers in the cellphone.

    I’m not saying they didn’t do that, ’cause I don’t know. But, it seems like it wouldn’t be too tough to find out who the person was just by doing that.

    Unless the phone is locked somehow. Mine isn’t. But, maybe other people’s are.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  211. “By the same token, would you be doing quite as many back flips in trying to rationalize away the negatives of an alternative-reality version of Trayvon?”
    Backflips, really? which part?
    and you have “disgust” for him?

    tifosa (f57603)

  212. Dave- my phone is password protected, as are my kids’. I have no idea if Martin’s was, or if it was, what it took to get past the password. I also have no idea whether the calls and texts he’d sent or made were part of the investigation.

    MayBee (081489)

  213. I don’t buy that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman. Remember the last thing we heard in Zimmerman’s police call: He said that Martin was running away from him. Why would Trayvon, in a new, strange environment, run away from Zimmerman and then come after him? It makes absolutely no sense to me.

    It seems that a lot of people are basing their opinions on whether or not they want Obama or Sharpton & Jackson to make hay with this. As anyone who has read my remarks over a decade and a half online knows, I hold race hustlers in deep contempt. But I don’t give a flying rat’s about the political implications of this. What eats at me is that a man shot and killed an unarmed teenager who was not doing anything but “looking suspicious.”

    What’s most frustrating of all is the ugliness I’m seeing in places I never would have expected it. In a similar manner to the way the Stormfront crowd attempted a hostile takeover of Free Republic, they seem to be infesting the Breitbart and Daily Caller sites. The DC posted Trayvon’s now-deleted tweets under the handle @no_limit_nigga, and the first comments were of the tone that because Martin wasn’t really the squeaky-clean smiling angel in the family photos, it was a good thing he was killed. Someone finally caught on, and deleted the comments, closing the thread.

    As for the genius who wrote “Tawana Brawley” above: Tawana Brawley pretended to be raped. Trayvon is not pretending to be dead.

    Idiot.

    L.N. Smithee (c3b0ea)

  214. “Dave- my phone is password protected”

    Yeah, I figured that was a possibility. I just keep one for emergency purposes, and haven’t used it for months, so it wouldn’t occur to me to put a password lock on mine.

    Supposedly, it took awhile for the police to notify Trayvon Martin’s folks, but there could be perfectly reasonable explanations for why it took so long (if it did).

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  215. Comment by daleyrocks — 3/26/2012 @ 10:21 pm

    Sammy – Is the father’s fiance Nadia Kroger Milhouse?

    I was beginning to think that we actually do not know her name, or anything about her. It looked like the name is being kept out of newspapers and off the Internet, but it’s in the Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin (now protected and mostly frozen till at least March 29) (The name is Brandi Green, and the townhouse is rented.)

    She’s also called his girlfriend, but with people who seem to be staying together a long time some people change that to the more respectable fiancee even tough nobody heard anything about them getting married. Wikipedia has it both ways.

    The Wikipedia article also has Trayvon Martin’s date of birth (Feb 5, 1995) and his height (6′ 3″) and his father’s occupation (truck driver) and his mother’s first and last names. The name of Trayvon’s girlfriend (whom he talked to at the start of the incident and who told him to run away) is kept anonymous, but the article says it is being kept anonymous.

    We have that Trayvon’s mother works for Miami-Dade government but not how.

    Nadia Kolasa/Kolasha/Kroger??! Mil(l)house Naffe grew up in Pensacola, Florida and later lived in the Tampa Bay area. She seems to be interested in richer men. By the way, one of her three roommates, in Lutz Florida, about 70 miles southwest of Sanford, at the time of her deposition in September, 2005, was a Brandy Jones, but that’s as close as it gets. Although there are some people who probably would deliberately mix them up.’

    What is interesting about Nadia is all the different connections to Quincy, Massachusetts. But this belongs on another thread. Maybe tomorrow.
    Nadia

    Sammy Finkelman (6aaed6)

  216. I was wondering if Smithee would check it on this one.

    I think I have to agree with pretty much everything he’s saying.

    Not only is he right, but us Bay Area dudes have to stick together.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  217. 215. Sammy is further out on the Aspie’s continuum than me, even.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  218. The mother of Trayvon Martin has filed two applications to secure trademarks containing her late son’s name, records show.

    Probably a law firm suggested it, and even named or agreed to be the marketing and contract agent, as a way of getting paid.

    Sammy Finkelman (6aaed6)

  219. 215. 217 I know it was a joke.

    Sammy Finkelman (6aaed6)

  220. Comment by Auntie Fraud — 3/26/2012 @ 8:13 pm

    Tray lies about where he got the jewelry. Wonder where he learned that

    Where do you think? From people he met in school.

    It is sometimes said, that when people are put in jail they learn crime from each other. But what is true of jails is even more true of schools.

    Sammy Finkelman (6aaed6)

  221. __________________________________________

    Backflips, really? which part?

    When you post comments like “you know he [Trayvon] punched?”

    So it’s logical — in your mind — to assume that Zimmerman somehow got a broken nose and bloodied head because he’s a masochist into acts of self-flagellation?

    Why would Trayvon, in a new, strange environment, run away from Zimmerman and then come after him? It makes absolutely no sense to me.

    First of all, the precise sequence of events hasn’t been fully aired or verified. I’ve read that Zimmerman turned back towards his car and it was then that Martin came after him.

    BTW, I attended schools in my youth that had student populations that went from being predominantly white, to integrated, then to predominantly black. There are POS, punks, bullies and jerks in all schools, of all races, of both genders. But in too many instances, some of the toughest, meanest, rowdiest behavior I ever observed invariably involved black kids.

    Both the Washington Post and LA Times have run stories over the past few months that note a disproportionately (repeat: disproportionately) large share of disciplinary problems in the DC and LA school districts involve black kids.

    L.N. Smithee, based on your blog, I’m aware of your racial background. And, regrettably, I know it’s human nature for a wide variety of people, when judging other folks, to be influenced by just how familiar or different those people are, based on things like their race included. But as gleamed from opinion surveys through the years, 90-plus percent of black America is of the left and staunchly pro-Democrat-Party. So if you or anyone else finds himself or herself overly affected by whether a person is white, black, Asian or Latino, etc, keep in mind that the ideological slant of people is a far more relevant and telling facet of them.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  222. By the same token

    RACIIIIIIISSTT!!!!!

    Icy (901d6d)

  223. It sounds like after Trayvon Martin had run away from George Zimmerman, they stumbled into each other again, very suddenly, maybe even bumped into each other in the rain and in the dark.. because they were both staying in the same area,
    because both of them were lost.

    Trayvon was looking at house numbers…….

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

    Zimmerman phoned the Sanford Police Department police at the non-emergency number at approximately 7:00 p.m., February 26, 2012.[51] to report Martin’s suspicious behavior, which he described as “just walking around looking about” in the rain.[52] The police dispatcher tape recorded him saying, “This guy looks like he is up to no good. He is on drugs or something.” He further stated that the person he was observing had his hand in his waistband, was holding something in his other hand, and was walking around slowly in the rain looking at houses.[53]

    Barney, he was trying to recognize the right way to go and checking house numbers because he knew he was close. Looking at house numbers, Barney! That was a cell phone or what he had bought. He tried calling up people maybe. Maybe he didn’t even know where to call.

    He ran away, but then he came back, because that was from where he thought he could best figure out how to get home. He maybe recognized the intersection.

    Meanwhile Zimmerman was lost:

    Zimmerman asserted self-defense, telling police he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on [and] …he walked back to his truck.

    He had no idea where Martin was. He only needed to know where to go to meet the police.

    In another place in the Wikipedia article Zimmerman’s vehicle is called a “car.” I don’t know, maybe it was an SUV.

    Earlier, when Martin was talking on the phone:

    Martin was speaking on a cell phone at the time of the incident. Martin’s girlfriend came forward, identifying herself as the other person in that conversation; she was interviewed by an attorney, who has made a statement, and her parents have requested her anonymity. The girl said that Martin expressed concern about a strange man following him, and she advised him to run. She says she heard Martin say “What are you following me for?” followed by a man’s voice responding “What are you doing here?” She said that she heard the sound of pushing and that Martin’s headset suddenly went silent, leading her to believe that he had been knocked down. She attempted to call him back immediately, but was unable to reach him

    His phone was damaged or disconnected, and this was not fixed before his life came to an end. He did in fact run, and was NOT knocked down, , and George Zimmerman stopped following him.. This was the first incident. Proof: In the call, he never mentioned an earlier incident. There were two, Zimmerman’s phone calls to the police are proof.

    The second time they met, Zimmerman says:

    Martin attacked him from behind

    But there’s another version, which police told the Orlando Sentinel, in which Mrtin attacked him from the front!!!

    Martin then confronted him and asked “Do you have a problem?”. Zimmerman said he replied no, and then reached for his cell phone. Zimmerman then alleged that Martin punched him in the face, knocking him down, and then began to beat his head against the ground.

    There is some earwitness testimony and some recordings as to what actually happened in their second confrontation. One of the recordings even has the fatal shot in the background. It’s available on Wikipedia.

    Some people claim to hear different things. In one recording there was the claim that George Zimmerman spoke about “coons” to the police, actually, it seems, he spoke about “goons.”

    Sammy Finkelman (6aaed6)

  224. Jeez! Somebody stop Sammy before he contemplates again.

    Icy (901d6d)

  225. #225

    LOL.

    That was pretty funny.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  226. #223 — you’re drawing an unwarranted conclusion in claiming that Zimmerman told one version where Martin attacked him rom the front.

    What has been reported is that Zimmerman told the police that as he was walking back to this car — SUV, whatever — Martin came up from behind him on his left and said words to the effect of “You got a problem?” Zimmerman is reported to have told the police he responded “No”, and in response to that Martin said something to the effect of “Well you do now”, and Martin then punched him in the face and knocked him down.

    So, I think there are a lot of assumptions to claim Zimmerman told two different stories about the angle of the attack. Only one sequence of events has been reported as having been described by Zimmerman, and that sequence could be characterized as having been attacked “from behind” in the sense that Martin approached him from behind, and “from the front” in the sense that Martin punched him in the face after they exchanged words and not the back of the head.

    The sequence of events is more important that the characterization given to them.

    shipwreckedcrew (e57b7e)

  227. You might want to fact check the physicals of these people.

    Trayvon was bigger and likely quicker than Z. Plus he had the advantage of surprise apparently. Z had the adavantage. God created man; Sam Colt made him equal.

    Concealed carry works for me. Sad that it happened, but Z was threatened and took action. It’s up to the courts – Not Jesse, Al, or the Black Panthers – to decide if it was justified.

    And it’s certainly not up to anyone who has commented. Not even me.

    KP@MCO (8dd0fb)

  228. Trayvon,who looks like a son I might have;if I had a son and I’m not saying I do,but there was that trip to pockistan so I might,acted stupidly,he brought skittles to a gunfight.

    b h obama (b0457e)

  229. @Sammy: Has anyone created a minute by minute timelines of what the evidence shows? if not, you have a job to do!

    one of my biggest revelations in the Trayvon/Zimmerman case is learning how few white people online ever interact with black teenagers.

    milowent (1b563e)

  230. Black people are under attack!

    Their murder rate is six times that of whites, has been for decades, and we care about it now because one killing may be racially motivated!

    Amphipolis (b120ce)

  231. Trayvon was ‘visiting’ the gated community, where dad’s girlfriend lived. Adding to his collection of ladies’ jewelry, not his own.

    Dude in training pants had a serious case of munchies.

    Jumped height-challenged stalker investigating his aimless trying of doors, peering thru windows.

    Uppity cracker wannabe.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  232. The point is NO INVESTIGATION a deceased kid and NO INVESTIGATION

    Comment by tifosa — 3/26/2012 @ 9:56 pm

    Liar.

    Tiffy went more unglued than normal after I went to bed.

    JD (e5c06b)

  233. one of my biggest revelations in the Trayvon/Zimmerman case is learning how few white people online ever interact with black teenagers.

    Absurd generalizations often?

    JD (e5c06b)

  234. Each crime has specific individual elements that need to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Its not up to the prosecutor to simply say “he deserves to be charged” and ignore the evidence.

    That’s how you get charges like the ones in the Duke Lacrosse case.

    Oh, gawd. STOP IT! Do you even know what you’re talking about?

    Again, to remind you: The Duke case was supposed to have been a brutal gang rape by a team full of rich white jocks raping a destitute black stripper. The highly-ranked Duke team was charged by DA Mike Nifong and their families personally insulted despite exculpatory evidence, which was concealed. Stripper Crystal Mangum’s story fell apart after six months, during which Nifong’s office didn’t even interview her.

    Charges were dropped because there was no longer credible evidence that a rape even occurred. OTOH, we DO know that Trayvon Martin is dead, that George Zimmerman shot him to death “in self-defense,” and it doesn’t appear Martin was engaged in any illegal activity beforehand.

    L.N. Smithee (c3b0ea)

  235. Imagine what the Miami Heat Team must be feeling. LOL!!!

    Bill (af584e)

  236. #231, BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA LOLOLOLOL OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Bill (af584e)

  237. it doesn’t appear Martin was engaged in any illegal activity beforehand

    It does appear he was engaged in illegal activity when he was shot, however.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  238. Annoyanced at being “followed while black” is no justification for criminal assaulting the person who is no longer following you.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  239. Think of an innocent shopper at the Target being “watched” and getting mad. Do they have the right to turn around and punch the mystery shopper who was eyeing them all down the spanx aisle but who has turned away to the shoe department?

    SarahW (b0e533)

  240. Personally, I think Zimmerman got what was coming to him but so did Trayvon.

    One for being a bigot tailing blacks kids around the community and the other for being a violent jerk who thought he could get over on cracker.

    Bill (af584e)

  241. If they approach the mystery shopper, express irritation; get a response that is neither actually aggressive nor in the realm of fighting words, haul off and knock the mystery shopper to the ground, smack their head on the concrete floor, punch them repeatedly, and go for their concealed carry weapon – and there is no possibility of retreat for the mystery shopper and no help forthcoming despite the mystery shopper’s frantic cries for aid –

    THe aggressor just might end up severely injured or dead. Because the mystery shopper has a right to the bones in his head.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  242. Instead of wearing my hoodie today in honor of Trayvon, I am going to wear my Neighborhood Watchmen Sticker on my jacket in honor of Bernie Goetz Zimmerman!!!!!!!

    Bill (af584e)

  243. Self defense applies even if the mystery shopper had only suspicions, and saw no actual wrongdoing on the part of the heretofore innocent target customer.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  244. Anyone here remember Bernie Goetz or Steven Paganes?

    Bill (af584e)

  245. Annoyanced at being “followed while black” is no justification for criminal assaulting the person who is no longer following you.

    Comment by SarahW — 3/27/2012 @ 6:06 am

    What evidence is there that Martin was engaged in a criminal assault? Because Zimmerman and he were in a physical scuffle before Martin was shot to death? Who says whom was the aggressor? Zimmerman, he being the only one of the two who, y’know, can still talk.

    L.N. Smithee (c3b0ea)

  246. misuse of 911 services.

    OK, I just have to ask…

    What the HELL are you basing that on, hmmm?

    What do you mean by that?

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  247. #247 and the witnesses? or for that matter his injuries?

    Bill (af584e)

  248. What evidence is there that Martin was engaged in a criminal assault?

    The fact that Zimmerman’s face and back of head were bloody. Do you think the blood just started spurting out due to some freakish coincidence?

    Because Zimmerman and he were in a physical scuffle before Martin was shot to death?

    Unless Zimmerman ASKED Martin to get ontop of him and hit him repeatedly, yeah. That would probably be fairly solid evidence…

    Who says whom was the aggressor? Zimmerman, he being the only one of the two who, y’know, can still talk.

    ALL OF THE WITNESSES SAY MATRIN WAS THE AGRESSOR!!!

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  249. Who says whom was the aggressor?

    Seriously, did you not even BOTHER to read the f*cking post???

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  250. While we’re all distracted, Obama and the EPA are doing away with coal-fired power plants…

    http://t.co/6qpfofsg

    Colonel Haiku (5e7be8)

  251. What evidence is there that Martin was engaged in a criminal assault? Because Zimmerman and he were in a physical scuffle before Martin was shot to death? Who says whom was the aggressor? Zimmerman, he being the only one of the two who, y’know, can still talk.

    Comment by L.N. Smithee — 3/27/2012 @ 6:21 am

    He was very clearly getting the worst of it and crying frantically for help in the scuffle, which supports his story that he was knocked down. The 911 tapes support his story that he was returning to his car.

    Zimmerman’s story is disputed by no fact or circumstance so far.

    [note: released from moderation. –Stashiu]

    SarahW (b0e533)

  252. This is why McCain’s notion, we had nothing to fear from an Obama presidency was nuts;

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2012/03/obamas-useful-idiocy-a-look-back.php

    narciso (83bb81)

  253. L.N. the rush to judgement in the Duke case is like the rush here. Because Martin is dead does not mean that he is the Victim. He appears to have been involved in thefts or burglaries in the past (which was unknown by Zimmerman). He was out and about in a gated community looking at, or in, homes and vehicles and spotted by a neighborhood watch member. Worth watching? Yep. Justifying his death? Nope.

    Martin appears to have been the aggressor, based on injuries and the sole witness statement explaining Zimmerman resorting to deadly force. Sorry, but if all that is correct, I just don’t see a crime. Stupidity yes, but a crime, no.

    Bottom line, there needs to be more known. But; what is known does appear to agree with what Zimmerman says happened.

    labcatcher (61737c)

  254. “Absurd generalizations often?” – JD

    no, its painfully obvious. i swear to god, people seem to think every black male teenager from an inner city is a criminal, and thus deserves to be killed. it hark backs to bill o’reilly’s comment in 2007 or so which the left twisted to hurt him– his point was that his grandmother had never met a black person, so she was horribly afraid of them. if she had met black people, she might not have been racist.

    milowent (1b563e)

  255. Scott at 248,

    He has been saying misuse of 911 for quite a while. It is just one of several things that make it obvious to me that he has no idea of how Law Enforcement, including the 911 system works.

    I am guessing that he thinks that if a 911 call doesn’t end in an arrest or… never mind, I have no idea what he is thinking.

    [note: released from moderation. –Stashiu]

    labcatcher (61737c)

  256. “He appears to have been involved in thefts or burglaries in the past” – where is the evidence of that?

    also, don’t forget the eyewitness who said zimmerman was walking around with his hands on his head after the killing acting like “i really screwed up”.

    what interests me about the sentinel story is the claim of “eyewitnesses” supporting his story, when I’ve only seen one anonymous person identified, who was reported on at the time.

    milowent (1b563e)

  257. “…police say their evidence indicates it was Zimmerman.”

    Uh… Unless it’s an absolute certainty, it’s not their job to make those conclusions, but to preserve the evidence so that a jury can.

    Kman (5576bf)

  258. No, Obama threw his own grandmother, who had raised him, ‘under the bus’ in order to explain his association with Reverend Wright, just as he scapegoated Sen, Inhofe to justify Ayers,

    narciso (83bb81)

  259. people seem to think every black male teenager from an inner city is a criminal, and thus deserves to be killed.

    This is quite the assertion. Martin He wasn’t killed because someone thought he could be a criminal. He’s still be alive if he’d let Z go back to his SUV unmolested.

    He was killed because he hauled off and knocked a guy he was pissed at, down to the ground, and started punching him.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  260. MILOWENT: “He appears to have been involved in thefts or burglaries in the past” – where is the evidence of that?

    also, don’t forget the eyewitness who said zimmerman was walking around with his hands on his head after the killing acting like “i really screwed up”.

    what interests me about the sentinel story is the claim of “eyewitnesses” supporting his story, when I’ve only seen one anonymous person identified, who was reported on at the time.

    Comment by milowent — 3/27/2012 @ 6:55 am

    The evidence was the jewelry and screwdriver found in his possession by the school officials, unless you believe his “My friend gave it to me” statement. AKA: Some other dude did it defense.

    Yes, it is quite telling that Zimmerman was walking around visibly upset. Really a prime indicator of what exactly? Any normal person would be highly upset at taking a life.

    The witness is more that likely known to the police. It is only common sense to keep his name out of the paper. Zimmerman has already been threatened by the NBPP, do you think they would leave a witness with an account not their liking alone?

    labcatcher (61737c)

  261. Holy cow. Tifosa and LN seem to be unable to follow a simple timeline.

    (OT, was this site attacked by truthers or something? It seems typing the numbers “nine” “one” and “one” gets you sent to moderation…)

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  262. Poor MSM and cronies.

    Duke LAX, Dan Rather (Bush’s Guard stuff), and now Trayvon/Zimmerman – – just three examples of where the narrative was right, but the facts were wrong.

    jim2 (6482d8)

  263. How about Haditha, with Taliban Tim McGuirk, or Sly
    Sy Hersh with Abu Ghraib, ‘the truth but not the
    whole truth’ or the Libby case, with Woodward, Royce, Calabresi, a cast of hundreds really.

    narciso (83bb81)

  264. no, its painfully obvious. i swear to god, people seem to think every black male teenager from an inner city is a criminal, and thus deserves to be killed. it hark backs to bill o’reilly’s comment in 2007 or so which the left twisted to hurt him– his point was that his grandmother had never met a black person, so she was horribly afraid of them. if she had met black people, she might not have been racist.

    You run with that narrative. It is complete BS, but run with it. The whole grandma thing is funny though, kind of like Barcky’s typical white person nonsense.

    JD (f9bc54)

  265. also, don’t forget the eyewitness who said zimmerman was walking around with his hands on his head after the killing acting like “i really screwed up”.

    Oh good Allah. Tell me how you are supposed to act after having shot someone, the act of which ultimately cost them their life.

    Quoting “I really screwed up” is kind of douchey, by the way, since you aren’t really quoting him.

    JD (f9bc54)

  266. Instead of wearing my hoodie today in honor of Trayvon, I am going to wear my Neighborhood Watchmen Sticker on my jacket in honor of Bernie Goetz Zimmerman!!!!!!!

    Comment by Bill — 3/27/2012 @ 6:12 am

    Here we go again. You’re letting the political circus affect clarity about the facts of the case.

    Flashback to 1984. Bernhard Goetz was minding his own business riding an NYC subway when he was accosted by young black thugs who “asked” him for five dollars (ostensibly to play video games at an arcade — but they also had sharpened screwdrivers with which they were thought to be jimmying the change slots in the machines). A previous victim of violent crime in pre-Giuliani New York, Goetz testified that he felt like a cornered rat, and that they were playing with him before “beating him to a pulp.” Having a loaded weapon, he thought that killing them first was his only means of surviving the situation — a situation that he was put in. He shot all four of them, putting one into a wheelchair for life with a second shot. He was acquitted of all charges (including attempted murder) and sentenced to six months for illegal possession of a firearm.

    Compare this to Zimmerman’s situation. He sees Martin acting “suspiciously.” He calls the police, saying that Trayvon’s acting “irrationally,” At first he says Martin is “checking [him] out”, and “reaching into his waistband,” and that “a–holes” like Martin “always get away.” The last thing Zimmerman describes Martin doing is running away from him in the opposite direction, “Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood.” It is at this point that Zimmerman makes his “f*cking coons” remark, and the operator asks him if he’s following Martin. This we know: Zimmerman portrayed Martin as possibly being a threat to him, and then, when Martin was no longer a threat, headed toward him with a loaded weapon.

    To sum up: Trouble came to Bernhard Goetz, and he couldn’t get away. George Zimmerman said trouble was headed his way, and when trouble went in the opposite direction, Zimmerman went toward it. Big diff.

    Anyone here remember Bernie Goetz or Steven Paganes?

    Comment by Bill — 3/27/2012 @ 6:13 am

    This is such a ridiculous comparison I’m disgusted to have to make it.

    Steven Pagones was a former prosecutor in New York’s Dutchess County falsely accused of raping Tawana Brawley, the 15-year-old black girl who crawled into a plastic bag and smeared feces on over herself and feigned having been gang raped by “racist cops” to escape punishment for being out too late. Then-unknown Al Sharpton and two militant attorneys (Alton Maddox Jr. & C. Vernon Mason, now both disbarred) made national headlines by giving Brawley “sanctuary” as her story fell apart at the seams. Sharpton, Maddox and Mason publicly accused Pagones of being one of Brawley’s rapists even after a grand jury determined that Brawley’s story was a complete hoax. Pagones, against legal advice, sued all four for defamation of character, a difficult charge to prove in court. After a ridiculous eight-month trial marked by courtroom outbursts and contempt jailings, Pagones won a judgment of less than a million dollars against all four. Brawley’s never paid him a cent; in fact, to escape having to defend herself, she fled the state during the trial. The disgraced Maddox & Mason made arrangements to pay their shares. Sharpton claimed poverty and only paid some of his $65,000 share; the rest was donated by wealthy friends of his, including superlawyer Johnnie Cochran.

    Pagones is not even close to a parallel to Zimmerman. Pagones never laid a finger on Tawana Brawley much less raped her, and in all likelihood, never knowingly came within a mile of her. On the other hand, George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin. If you don’t understand the difference, you’re either a moron or you’re trying really, really hard in your own mind to make Zimmerman something he’s not. That comparison is almost as brain dead as comparing Martin to Emmett Till, something I slapped down a couple of days ago.

    L.N. Smithee (c3b0ea)

  267. “also, don’t forget the eyewitness who said zimmerman was walking around with his hands on his head after the killing acting like “i really screwed up”.”

    milowent – Not wanting contradict the mindreader’s interpretation of Zimmerman’s reaction, but what is a more socially acceptable reaction to shooting somebody? Please enlighten.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  268. “Holy cow. Tifosa and LN seem to be unable to follow a simple timeline.”

    Ghost – LN is good people. Please don’t put him in the same class with tifosa.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  269. Evidently Trayvon was from the Miami middle class of his ethos–parents well employed, had contact with his father, possibly had his own room, had worn his school’s jersey at some point, had occasioned school during the current term.

    Does not seem to have acquired a rap sheet but was working on it, aspired to gansta status, was not coddled by his school but shielded from authorities.

    Not feral but not street smart, definitely not smart enough.

    gary gulrud (1de2db)

  270. This we know: Zimmerman portrayed Martin as possibly being a threat to him, and then, when Martin was no longer a threat, headed toward him with a loaded weapon.

    I don’t think this is what we know.

    JD (e5c06b)

  271. gee thanks 0bama
    the Hope and Change came and went
    hello Rodney King

    Colonel Haiku (5e7be8)

  272. L.N.

    I may be wrong but I believe the point being made is that Pagones was crucified in the press before everything was known, as is Zimmerman.

    There is more known about what happened between Zimmerman and Martin and most of it coincides with what Zimmerman says happened.

    labcatcher (61737c)

  273. So all these people marching for Trayvon are essentially saying they would have preferred Zimmerman just lay there and allow a 6’3″ hoodrat to bash his white/Hispanic brains out on the sidewalk.

    America is insane.

    CrustyB (69f730)

  274. noise what you hear from
    the tiffany live! channel
    shucking and jiving

    Colonel Haiku (5e7be8)

  275. don’t exaggerate, Krusty…6’2″.

    Colonel Haiku (5e7be8)

  276. 6’2″ wannabe menace to society with a gold grille.

    Colonel Haiku (5e7be8)

  277. I don’t know if anyone has commented on this yet, but could there possibly be a worse piece of journalistic writing, then the lead sentence of the Orlando Sentinel?

    “With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him bloody and battered,”

    Uh.. what? How about, “With a single punch, Trayvon Martin knocked down the neighborhood watch volunteer. Trayvon then climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him battered and bloodied, before Zimmerman eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year old, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel.

    That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say. ”

    But then, what it is it that Orwell said about sloppy use of the English language when the goal is to obscure rather than to clarify?

    DKS (f3c93f)

  278. too bad for off-brand
    li’l boy bullsh*t can’t hold him
    look the part, be the…BOOOOM!!!

    Colonel Haiku (5e7be8)

  279. 275. “America is insane”.

    I would term it, ‘habitually distracted by the flotsam of life and insufficiently inarticulate to know its own mind’.

    Bachmann was on Laura this AM. As I’ve said before, I agree with her critics that she has shortcomings, and is not obviously suited to office of POTUS.

    That said, having eliminated her means to the mob that those left standing are ‘better suited’.

    That conviction is not ‘insane’. It its merely ‘effin weetarded.

    gary gulrud (1de2db)

  280. *articulate

    gary gulrud (1de2db)

  281. step up or step off
    tell ’em you in it for life
    a young man lays dead

    Colonel Haiku (5e7be8)

  282. “That said, having eliminated her means to the mob that those left standing are ‘better suited’.”

    hey gary gulrud
    you deductive mother, you
    some wit on this one

    Colonel Haiku (5e7be8)

  283. You know.It is always a sad thing to see violent acts take place.
    The fact is this, both Martin and Zimmerman had the right to be in whatever geographical territory that they were in providing it wasn’t private property.
    It appears that Martin attacked Zimmerman for whatever reason, the reason is a moot point, you simply do not physically assault another person…..period.

    Once the assault took place the gun did what it was suppose to do, prevent the assaultee from wrongfully incurring great bodily harm and/or death.

    The only story here is the politics intruding into a non crime and should be reported as such but don’t hold your breath.

    Drider (b003e1)

  284. L.N. the rush to judgement in the Duke case is like the rush here. Because Martin is dead does not mean that he is the Victim. He appears to have been involved in thefts or burglaries in the past (which was unknown by Zimmerman). He was out and about in a gated community looking at, or in, homes and vehicles and spotted by a neighborhood watch member. Worth watching? Yep. Justifying his death? Nope.

    Comment by labcatcher — 3/27/2012 @ 6:47 am

    This is getting depressing.

    “Because Martin is dead does not mean that he is the Victim.”

    Read that paragraph again, and tell me that it made sense.

    L.N. Smithee (c3b0ea)

  285. Of course, he is the victim, trying to fit this into a larger template, which was Obama’s mentor’s
    wont, is the problem;

    http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/03/27/derrick-bell%E2%80%99s-afrolantica-part-10-apocalyptic-prophet-of-racial-war/

    narciso (83bb81)

  286. LN Smithee –

    If one is attacked and injured but kills the attacker, who is the victim?

    jim2 (6482d8)

  287. ______________________________________________

    people seem to think every black male teenager from an inner city is a criminal, and thus deserves to be killed

    Are you trying to channel your inner-Jesse-Jackson? I’m assuming that you, as is true of Jackson, are of the left.

    I notice far too many liberals have a tendency to give a lot of benefit of the doubt to accused murderers (“capital punishment is horrible!!” “The sad, troubled killer came from a broken home! We must learn to understand such people’s plight!! We need more publicly funded daycare centers!”), and, in turn, seem less interested in spending as much of their time and giving as much of their sympathy to a murderer’s victims. That is a rather cruel and inhumane response. So is placing a liberal in the context of his or her being blase enough to have the feelings of “deserves to be killed” really too far from reality?

    Then, too, how come far too many liberals never seem to be as troubled or appalled by the high rate of murders that involve black victims, and certainly when the perpetrators are black too? Another hint that folks on the left can be surprisingly heartless and, again, really not too far from the emotion of “deserves to be killed.”

    “There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps…then turn around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”
    ― Jesse Jackson

    Mark (31bbb6)

  288. Mark, how do you think Jesse Jackson would feel to turn around and see a hispanic?

    I just feel the need to mention that since the details of this case have been so misrepresented from the very beginning.
    The entire story will now stat moving into the absurd territory when a legion of “new” witnesses come out of the woodwork and claim Zimmerman just drove up and shot the kid for no apparent reason or some such nonsense.

    Drider (b003e1)

  289. also, don’t forget the eyewitness who said zimmerman was walking around with his hands on his head after the killing acting like “i really screwed up”.

    — So, was it the eyewitness that drew this conclusion, or is it just you?

    Icy (e73414)

  290. How about Z didn’t feel like shooting someone was winning the lottery. Also his pavement-caressed head was probably feeling great right about then.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  291. Icy, how would you react if you were just savagely beaten and then shot and killed a person?
    I think most people would be in a state of shock.

    Is there a standard issue way that one should act after such an act takes place?

    Drider (b003e1)

  292. That was my point, Drider.

    Icy (e73414)

  293. I apologize, glasses are on so I can see what I’m reading better.

    Drider (b003e1)

  294. 284. “insufficiently articulate” poster child Hai Colon thinks Ron Paul an a posteriori better qualified POTUS than Michele Bachmann having thrashed her in IA caucus.

    You know it’s never too late to return to school, I’m retraining myself as we tag the walls.

    James Taranto has a GED and I bet Rico would post his stuff in a hearbeat.

    gary gulrud (1de2db)

  295. “people seem to think every black male teenager from an inner city is a criminal, and thus deserves to be killed”

    Once, visiting a friends’ family cabin north of Grand Rapids I was out in the early morning, blowing a heater, and came upon a raccoon limping along, its foreleg in a trap someone had set near the water.

    My friend’s father quietly dispatched the critter with a small bore semi-automatic. The animal at no point raised its head to look.

    The sportsman’s practice is detestable, especially that of not clearing one’s traps when the season is over, leaving animals to die and then rot utterly wasted but for scavengers and vermin to dispose of the carcass.

    The raccoon did not deserve to die. When my neighbor livetraps the pests I ask no questions. I’d rather not know whether he is humouring us and is actually killing them. I am just happy to be rid of them.

    I would not keep a dog in the manner Trayvon was raised.

    gary gulrud (1de2db)

  296. he can’t take a compliment…

    adrift in pool of
    frightening imagery
    the gulrud throws down

    Colonel Haiku (5e7be8)

  297. Irony… thy sting lays me out…

    Shooter Zimmerman a registered Democrat…

    http://freebeacon.com/registered-dem-killed-trayvon/

    Colonel Haiku (5e7be8)

  298. The more I read about this the angrier I get.

    This thing is blowing up in the left’s/media’s face. Who made this political? Who made it about racism with manufactured “f’n coons” actually “f’n punks”?

    There has been a lot of talk about I am Andrew Breitbart, hopefully we see those people soon.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  299. LN,
    1) if you attack me, and I kill you in self defense, youvarent magically the victim.
    2) punks. Not coons. Punks. Try listening to the audio yourself before jumping on the racism bandwagon.
    3) there were two calls from Zimmerman.
    4) there’s an eye witness who saw trayvon attacking Zimmerman, and then the other witness who saw Zimmerman after the shooting.
    5) this timeline really isn’t that difficult.
    6) I’ve seen a lot of evidence that Trayvon was a petty thief, wannabe gangster, and absolutely zero evidence that Zimmerman is racist. He was reporting suspicious behavior, not suspicious skin color. (punks, not coons)

    Tiffy,
    No investigation? Where do you get your weed from, and how much does it cost an ounce? Because I would love to getthat retarded.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  300. L N @ 286

    I know you are smarter than the rest of us and find our stupidity depressing, sorry about that. However; I do have some experience in matters of this type.

    I will stand by that paragraph; the instigator of violence was Martin, he punched Zimmerman, knocking him to the ground bashing his head on the ground and continuing to pummel him.

    Zimmerman followed Martin which is not justification for Martin hitting him, particularly if Zimmerman was heading back to his vehicle.

    Apparently you believe that victims cannot defend themselves or if they do and win, then the suspect becomes the victim.

    labcatcher (61737c)

  301. LN Smithee, a person whose integrity has been beyond reproach in my experience, stated that Z dropped the effin coons line. Is there a source, definitive, for this, since others are disputing same?

    JD (e5c06b)

  302. To sum up: Trouble came to Bernhard Goetz, and he couldn’t get away. George Zimmerman said trouble was headed his way, and when trouble went in the opposite direction, Zimmerman went toward it. Big diff.

    Totally agree, Smithee. From a legal, moral, and most of all, practical point of view. If you see trouble and have an out, use it. Get the f*** out. Don’t go jumping into the fire. Don’t put yourself in a situation where you are either a murderer or a murder victim.

    nk (dec503)

  303. Nk – how does that track with your prior theories about punching people in the face for not getting out of your way on the sidewalk? 😉

    Once engaged, it seems like Z was walking away, or back to his car, when the deceased confronted him.

    JD (e5c06b)

  304. To sum up: Trouble came to Bernhard Goetz, and he couldn’t get away. George Zimmerman said trouble was headed his way, and when trouble went in the opposite direction, Zimmerman went toward it. Big diff.

    Totally agree, Smithee. From a legal, moral, and most of all, practical point of view. If you see trouble and have an out, use it. Get the f*** out. Don’t go jumping into the fire. Don’t put yourself in a situation where you are either a murderer or a murder victim.

    I agree, although neighborhoods that experience crime rely on people to look out for the interest of the whole neighborhood, not just their own personal property.
    Should Zimmerman have followed Martin? Probably not, but if he had stopped a break in he’d be a hero.
    Compare his actions to the anti-snitch culture.

    MayBee (081489)

  305. A long time ago, at least long enough for the statute of limitations to have expired, in the middle of the night I heard a couple of punks trying to steal my brother’s car out of our driveway. I chased them away in my bare feet, called 911, and woke up the family. I told my father that I never even thought of picking up one of my guns. He said, “You did good, we’re not going to become killers over a car”.

    [note: released from moderation. –Stashiu]

    nk (dec503)

  306. Comment by JD — 3/27/2012 @ 10:48 am

    nk (dec503)

  307. Comment by JD — 3/27/2012 @ 10:48 am

    Sorry, premature commentation. Despite having lost three pieces of my brain, I can still learn, JD. 😉 A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

    nk (dec503)

  308. Some imply that racism from white folks is the most pressing problem that black youth face. That is not true: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/294357/why-manipulate-tragedy-trayvon-martin-heather-mac-donald

    And when imprisoned black men have a higher life expectancy that their counterparts outside of the prison system: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20879679 , it needs to be acknowledged that there is serious dysfunction in play.

    Colonel Haiku (5e7be8)

  309. Once engaged, it seems like Z was walking away, or back to his car, when the deceased confronted him.

    That’s the legal case. Who was the initial aggressor and did he sufficiently withdraw from using threat of force to make the other person the aggressor?

    nk (dec503)

  310. _________________________________________

    LN Smithee, a person whose integrity has been beyond reproach in my experience

    I think he’s a bit affected by a variation of “a friend of my friend is my friend.” Or “an enemy of my friend is my enemy.” Or something along those lines. Except in this case the reaction of sympatico is based not on the person being a friend but someone who reminds the observer of a spouse, sibling, aunt, uncle, cousin, etc. The core of that is groupthink, which can easily become quite racist or discriminatory, either inadvertently or purposefully.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  311. I didn’t really take this story seriously until my eyes gazed upon this image.

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/hoodies-ny-e1332818120223.jpg

    Noodles (3681c4)

  312. All prisoners have a higher life expectancy than the general population. All they do is eat, sleep, exercise, and rape new prisoners.

    nk (dec503)

  313. Who was the initial aggressor and did he sufficiently withdraw from using threat of force

    Did Z ever threaten the use of force, prior to pulling the trigger? Is participating in a neighborhood watch a threat of force?

    JD (eabeae)

  314. Comment by Mark — 3/27/2012 @ 11:03 am

    Complete and utter BS.

    JD (eabeae)

  315. I have a ton of information, analysis and links at the link attached to my name.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  316. ___________________________________________

    Once engaged, it seems like Z was walking away, or back to his car, when the deceased confronted him.

    I admit this is pure conjecture, but I suspect Martin may have originally gotten a kick in playing a bit of cat-and-mouse with Zimmerman. And then when Martin got bored by that, he may have wanted to confront Zimmerman directly, either so he could display resentment towards authority figures, towards anyone who makes vandalism or other misdeeds harder to carry out, or just to stir up some cheap excitement at that moment.

    I have observed a mentality out there among parts of society in which being as loud and rowdy as possible — where insulting someone’s mother, as one example, is turned into an art form — is a badge of honor.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  317. Took the time to review keywords and found others that were still causing problems. Hopefully we’ve seen the last of the spontaneous moderations.

    Stashiu3 (1764bd)

  318. There are things we can’t know about what was going on in Martin’s head.
    Was he scared of being followed, as I would be? Scared for his personal safety, I mean.
    Or was he irritated at being followed, having been previously been observed doing things that got him in trouble?

    Those would bring about two different responses to Zimmerman stopping him and then (if he did) turning to walk back to his truck.

    MayBee (081489)

  319. ____________________________________

    Complete and utter BS.

    So you think that Smithee’s racial background has absolutely, totally, indisputably no influence — none whatsoever — on the perceptions he brings to a story along the lines of Martin and Zimmerman? If so, he’d reflect a smaller portion of a wide variety of people and the idiosyncrasies of their human nature.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  320. None. Zero. Zip. Nada.

    JD (eabeae)

  321. So you think that Smithee’s racial background has absolutely, totally, indisputably no influence — none whatsoever — on the perceptions he brings to a story along the lines of Martin and Zimmerman?
    Comment by Mark — 3/27/2012 @ 11:30 am

    L.N.Smithee has demonstrated his ability to look at race neutrally on many occasions. I value his opinion highly. [rest of comment deleted before posting]

    Stashiu3 (1764bd)

  322. “What the HELL are you basing that on, hmmm?”

    I base that on the fact that’s it’s a misdemeanor to use 911 services to “report” things that aren’t emegencies. Like black kids walking down the street, for example.

    Get convicted of doing it four times, and it’s a felony.

    Zimmerman appears to have done this numerous times, to carry out little neighborhood vendettas and fulfill his Dirty Harry fantasies. The authorities should have slapped him down a long time ago. They didn’t, and now somebody is dead.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  323. _____________________________________________

    Was he scared of being followed, as I would be?

    I’d consider that quite plausible if Martin’s background and history were that of, say, an honor-role student, or a teenager known to be a rather disciplined, traditional conformist, or a faithful attendee at the local church, or a big fan of the Boy Scouts, or someone who did just the opposite of trying to stir things up, etc.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  324. “So you think that Smithee’s racial background has absolutely, totally, indisputably no influence — none whatsoever — on the perceptions he brings to a story along the lines of Martin and Zimmerman?”

    He has about the same perception as me, and I’m as white as a bedsheet.

    Of course, you never know, I could be white on the outside and black on the inside. I guess.

    Reverse oreo?

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  325. _____________________________________

    None. Zero. Zip. Nada.

    Then he must be super human. He’d be like a guy (for instance, a cop) confronting a beautiful woman (better yet, a very stunning blond one) and claiming that would have absolutely, totally, indisputably no effect — not even 0.00000010 percent of an effect — on the way he’d deal with her. And that could even include a scenario where the guy is gay.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  326. You’re going to make the brunettes mad, Mark.

    Dustin (330eed)

  327. “Should Zimmerman have followed Martin? Probably not, but if he had stopped a break in he’d be a hero.”

    Yeah, and if all the Manson gang had done was stop Sharon Tate from committing crimes, they’d be heroes too.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  328. __________________________________

    He has about the same perception as me, and I’m as white as a bedsheet.

    It’s also a given that the life experiences of people and, most importantly, their political biases are among the things that make them tick. But those aspects of people don’t exist in a vacuum, so other things do come into play too.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  329. I’d consider that quite plausible if Martin’s background and history were that of, say, an honor-role student

    This is why I think it’s not necessary to put Martin on trial.

    The truth is that he could plausibly feel threatened even if he’s not an honorable person. In fact, it’s possible he is more prone to react angrily to a threat, or assume a threat more quickly, if he’s not honorable himself. But we don’t really know about Martin. He isn’t here to defend himself. He can’t explain what the screwdriver was. He has never been convicted of selling drugs or burglarizing jewelry with a screwdriver, except in some courts of public opinion.

    Whatever he did wrong in his life, it seems karma paid him back with far too much interest.

    The people we need to put on public display are the race hustlers and those who have decided Zimmerman is a murderer and a racist with absolutely no basis. Not Martin. My hunch is that both Martin and Zimmerman over reacted to the situation, that Zimmerman escalated from ‘I suspect this person and called the cops’ to ‘I am going to bring a gun into a situation where I’m interacting with people in a way that could easily lead to serious problems, even though cops are aware of the situation’ and Martin possibly escalated to attack Zimmerman as Z tried to leave the confrontation.

    It didn’t serve the race hustlers to soberly note that Zimmerman could have done his public service in more cautious way, or that Martin could have reacted to the confrontation in a more reasonable way (than it seems he did). They instead insisted, without knowing, that Zimmerman is extremely evil. As someone noted recently, they are everything they claiming to be angry with Zimmerman for being.

    Dustin (330eed)

  330. One thing about cops is that thugs are less likely to just jump up and attack them. They know that cop has backup and a firearm and a taser.

    They do not know that the citizen is armed. That can be provocative. It can lead to an entirely different result.

    That doesn’t mean Zimmerman had a duty to retreat or a duty to let the cops handle the police work or a duty to not be armed. It def. doesn’t mean Zimmerman had a duty to let someone smash his head into a sidewalk. I’m only talking about a common sense aspect of dealing with problems we encounter. When minutes count, the police are minutes away.

    Dustin (330eed)

  331. 325. The divide here is fundamental, between one supposing mankind must accomodate the world as it is and one that supposes mankind can adapt the world to his choosing.

    Surls and Smithee are at bottom liberals, JD and NK for two, are conservatives. Personal tastes may make it seem otherwise, but are mere superficialities.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  332. Whatever he did wrong in his life, it seems karma paid him back with far too much interest.

    eh, maybe I’m wrong about this. I don’t really know. If I had seen Martin smashing a help-crying Zimmerman’s head into the pavement under the most critical interpretations of Martin I’ve read on the internet, I’d have shot him myself. But I wasn’t there and I can’t know that is how it played out.

    Dustin (330eed)

  333. _____________________________________________

    You’re going to make the brunettes mad, Mark.

    Come to think of it, if there is such a thing as a Men’s Rights League or Men’s Liberation Committee, they should be protesting that someone like a Jesse Jackson will say he feels threatened when a MALE (who happens to be black) is walking behind him on a street, but won’t feel the same way when it comes to a WOMAN (black or otherwise) strolling about on that same sidewalk.

    Discrimination against dudes!

    Mark (31bbb6)

  334. Yeah, and if all the Manson gang had done was stop Sharon Tate from committing crimes, they’d be heroes too.

    I’m not sure what that has to do with this. Had a neighborhood watch guy stopped the Manson gang from parking their cars near the mansion, the neighborhood watch guy would have been a hero.

    You know, it does happen. People do stop crimes from being committed by observing and stopping people they find suspicious.
    That didn’t happen in this case, but that doesn’t mean it’s bad in general to observe people you find suspicious.

    MayBee (081489)

  335. Maybee, I wouldn’t be surprised if Zimmerman had stopped some crimes. It sounds like he was calling in anything suspicious he saw.

    I just think the poor guy handled this situation very recklessly. I hate to call him a jackass after seeing the lynch mob… it feels like kicking a guy when he’s down. but he handled it really poorly.

    It’s hard to know about his success. Officers and citizens don’t get medals for all the potentialities they shut down.

    Dustin (330eed)

  336. ________________________________________

    but he handled it really poorly.

    But I wasn’t there and I can’t know that is how it played out.

    I think your earlier comment (the second one) should be flipped with your more recent comment.

    Meanwhile, and beyond that, I do acknowledge that Zimmerman, when he was younger, reportedly got into a tussle with a cop and, more recently, got into some type of physical altercation with his wife. Such matters do point to his possibly being a hothead. But, again, all of this — whether it pertains to Zimmerman or Martin — is pure speculation, pure conjecture, at this time.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  337. “The evidence was the jewelry and screwdriver found in his possession by the school officials”

    Shocking. I have both of those things in my possession too.

    Of course, I am pretty much of a desperado.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  338. I think your earlier comment (the second one) should be flipped with your more recent comment.

    That’s wrong.

    Don’t conflate my opinion with those who are criticizing the actual shooting. That is not what I’m talking about and I have explained I do now know enough about that moment.

    My opinion is that Zimmerman should not have interacted that closely with a suspicious person, bringing a gun into a situation that would very probably lead to a fight if he did so consistently. I think that was reckless. Unlike police, citizens interacting with every suspicious person they see can lead to more problems than it solves. At least compared with what I think Zimmerman should have done: not proceed beyond alerting the police until he saw a situation the police couldn’t arrive in time to handle.

    Dustin (330eed)

  339. I absolutely agree, Dustin.

    MayBee (081489)

  340. Dave Surls, you have 14 pieces of women’s jewelry in your backpack that you can’t explain the origin of? Well, that only leads me to think you are burglar too.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  341. Dave @338, You’re being silly now.

    Do you commonly keep your women’s jewelry and screwdriver in a bag and take it wherever you go?

    labcatcher (61737c)

  342. Irony… thy sting lays me out…
    Shooter Zimmerman a registered Democrat…

    — Hey! He shot somoene that could be the son of the guy that he voted for.

    Icy (e73414)

  343. Either Dave’s a burglar, or else, perhaps there’s a Davida Surls performing in a nightclub somewhere.

    Icy (e73414)

  344. Have they launched the White Hispanic-Americans for Obama website yet?

    Icy (e73414)

  345. “Meanwhile, and beyond that, I do acknowledge that Zimmerman, when he was younger, reportedly got into a tussle with a cop and, more recently, got into some type of physical altercation with his wife. Such matters do point to his possibly being a hothead.”

    Nah, everyone goes around interferring with police trying to make arrests, engages in batteries on police officers, gets hit with domestic violence complaints, calls 911 to report people having pool parties, and then shoots people who are engaged in the crime of walking down the street.

    No evidence of an unstable and violent personality here.

    Just your average, ordinary, everyday…whack job.

    And, needless to say, he’s just the sort of guy you would like to have packing a pistol and patrolling the streets.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  346. Dave Surls, why is it that you are doubling down on the silliness? And why is it that you are making statements about what happened that you know are contradicted by witnesses?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  347. Dustin @ 339

    I agree with your opinion. Zimmerman got in over his head doing something he was neither trained or qualified to do and this situation resulted.

    All the way back to the late 60’s and early 70’s when the Neighborhood Watch programs started, citizens were strongly advised to observe and report only. Following people was definitely not something LAPD advised and I don’t believe any Police Department would advise that.

    All that being said, he was attacked and I believe, based on what has been reported, was acting in self defense.

    labcatcher (61737c)

  348. Yes, and unstable hotheaded violent people can also be attacked. The real question should be whether or not Zimmerman felt his life was in danger.

    There’s no evidence that Zimmerman was just picking on him because he was black and walking around.

    My experience with hot heads is that they are a magnet for other hot heads. And by this account, it would seem that Martin was every bit the hot head that Zimmerman was.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  349. Well said, Labcatcher.

    My hunch, based on the reports, is that he did ultimately defend himself. Even imperfect people have the right to defend themselves.

    Dustin (330eed)

  350. “Do you commonly keep your women’s jewelry and screwdriver in a bag and take it wherever you go?”

    Well, not jewelry (it’s my Mom’s old jewelry), but I often carry flat head screwdivers.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  351. “And why is it that you are making statements about what happened that you know are contradicted by witnesses?”

    Not once have I done that, despite your vivid imaginings.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  352. “All that being said, he was attacked”

    Assuming facts not in evidence, unless you want to take the unsupported word of George Zimmerman as fact, and ignore all events which preceded the actual physical altercation.

    Which I do not wish to do.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  353. “There’s no evidence that Zimmerman was just picking on him because he was black and walking around.”

    ALL the evidence points to that. You and others simply refuse to open your eyes and see it.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  354. Dave Surls, yes you have done it repeatedly. You’ve chosen to ignore Zimmerman’s injuries, and the witness that saw him with Martin atop him prior to the shooting. And you’ve made your little snark about “assuming facts not in evidence” to be nothing but hypocrisy given your widespread assumption that your own speculation is fact.

    And your “Comment by Dave Surls — 3/27/2012 @ 12:27 pm” shows you’ve no intention of dealing seriously with any evidence that might actually make your confront your own conclusions.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  355. If only every other senseless human event had this level of scrutiny and speculation.

    What is the purpose of duking it out in a discussion thread with the limited knowledge everyone has concerning the evidence?

    We have a bloody and battered gun owner and a dead kid. This doesn’t require Sherlock Holmes on the case. The Police and court system will handle it in a professional manner.

    Stop feeding the hype. This media firestorm is due to the skin color of the involved parties and entirely the wrong reason to pay attention to it.

    Go back to talking about Obama’s record….because that is precisely what they don’t want us to do.

    Koozebane (a09bc0)

  356. 355. “You’ve chosen to ignore Zimmerman’s injuries, and the witness that saw him with Martin atop him”

    Witnesses, one 13 year-old Austin Brown now added. More witnesses with some sort of testimony extant.

    Mystic is a river in the state of denial.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  357. “Dave Surls, yes you have done it repeatedly.”

    No, I have not.

    “You’ve chosen to ignore Zimmerman’s injuries…”

    Not once have I disputed the claim that Zimmerman suffered injuries, nor have I “ignored” the fact that he was injured. To put it bluntly, you’re lying.

    “…the witness that saw him with Martin atop him prior to the shooting.”

    Not once have I ignored that, nor have I denied that a witness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. I have repeatedly referenced that witness’ report in my remarks, and have even stated that I felt that the witnesses’ report ought to be taken at face value. Once again, you’re simply lying.

    ‘And you’ve made your little snark about “assuming facts not in evidence”’

    Like I said, I don’t take Zimmerman’s claim as fact. It’s simply an unsupported statement made by a guy who is on the hotseat.

    In any case, Zimmerman is the guy who provoked the confrontation, without having a single legitimate reason to do so, and HE, not Martin seems to be the one engaging in illegal acts. He has no legitimate claim to self-defense, any more than a bank robber does if he happens to get hit during the commission of a bank robbery.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  358. Dave – even if that we’re true…and there is plenty to suggest otherwise…being angry at being followed while black isnt justification for sandbagging z. Especially when Z. Isn’t following anymore.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  359. Surls,

    So Zimmerman was illegally neighborhood watching?

    Or is it stalking crime even if you never met the person and was following them?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFtn2Ke0vwQ

    Bill (af584e)

  360. But for the criminal assault, what would have happened? No shooting to stop an assault, that’s for sure.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  361. Dave Surls, your hypocrisy continues, not least as you think that Martin beating on Zimmerman is not an illegal act? You are becoming more clown like by the minute.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  362. Zimmerman no doubt antagonist.

    Zimmerman likely a racist.

    Zimmerman also seems to be not guilty of any crime other then defending himself.

    Sorry children, if facts hold, he is free to stalk black utes once again.

    … just maybe not with a gun.

    Bill (af584e)

  363. Dave would be better served saying he thinks the witnesses and Zimmerman are all ling racists who want to gun down black utes.

    At least that is a logical hypothesis that can be proven or not.

    But to simply ignore the attack by Trayvon on Zimmerman AFTER Zimmerman walked away from him ….. oooooooy, only an imbecile would argue the point.

    Bill (af584e)

  364. Dave,zimmermans account is supported by circumstance and witness accounts.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  365. “What is the purpose of duking it out in a discussion thread”

    The purpose of raising hell about it is to light a fire under the ass of the authorities who are Johnny-on-the-spot to charge Zimmerman with a felony when he allegedly shoves a cop, yet blow it off when the same guy allegedly shoots an unarmed black kid just a few years later.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  366. #366. Last I checked those are two mutually exclusive issues as it relates to a crime being committed.

    They are relevant to the gun permit. So go take it up with them.

    Bill (af584e)

  367. If I had a son like Trayvon, I would be mad as hell he was killed that way but I would be more upset for his needlessly getting into a fight with someone.

    Bill (af584e)

  368. Not once have I ignored that, nor have I denied that a witness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. I have repeatedly referenced that witness’ report in my remarks, and have even stated that I felt that the witnesses’ report ought to be taken at face value. Once again, you’re simply lying.

    ‘And you’ve made your little snark about “assuming facts not in evidence”’

    Like I said, I don’t take Zimmerman’s claim as fact. It’s simply an unsupported statement made by a guy who is on the hotseat.

    You can’t even comment without contradicting yourself. You aren’t ignoring the eye witness, even though you are, by saying you’re not taking Zimmerman’s word for it.
    By the way, what evidence is there to say that Zimmerman was just picking on Martin because he was black and walking? I might be willing to concede that, if the only times he called nine one one was to report darkies in his neighborhood.

    Assuming facts not in evidence?

    “There’s no evidence that Zimmerman was just picking on him because he was black and walking around.”

    ALL the evidence points to that. You and others simply refuse to open your eyes and see it.

    Comment by Dave Surls — 3/27/2012 @ 1:22 pm

    Keep talking. You’ll start making sense soon, I can feel it.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  369. “Dave,zimmermans account is supported by circumstance and witness accounts.”

    Bullshit.

    Pardon my French.

    Zimmerman’s claim that he was attacked is supported by Zimmerman’s claim that he was attacked. Period.

    And, that claim flies in the face of every single thing known to have happened from the moment he made his bullshit and illegal 911 call, until the moment he shot the unarmed Trayvon Martin dead.

    Maybe something will be revealed that changes that picture, but that’s the way things look now, except to people who are blinded by their preconceptions.

    [note: released from moderation. –Stashiu]

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  370. Guys, even if Zimmerman is the most filthy racist, who cares if the facts and witnesses support his assertion he was attacked.

    Really, folks, focus. Being a racist is no crime.

    Bill (af584e)

  371. I don’t know whether Z handled the initial situation poorly or not. I guess we’ll see about that.

    During the struggle he absolutely handled it appropriately.

    If you find yourself on your back and mounted with a broken nose, while your head is being slammed into the concrete, you shoot.

    Don’t worry about some guy named “Noodles” on a comment section of the internet.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  372. “You aren’t ignoring the eye witness, even though you are”

    No, I am not.

    I accept what the one eyewitness to the fight says at face value, and I’ll continue to do so until I have good reason not to.

    And, telling the same lie about what I’ve said, over and over again, won’t make the lie true.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  373. 356. “Go back to talking about Obama’s record….because that is precisely what they don’t want us to do.”

    Open mic indiscretions with the enemy, buying worthless EU debt with freshly inked kindling, taking credit for pipeline over which he has no jurisdiction will halving drill permits over prior admin, killing Big Coal, killing 5 PA power stations, and that’s only a smidge of the last month’s sabotage.

    He needs to be tried for treason, not just defeated and given a budget, a pension, a library and SS detail in perpetuity.

    Neutron would but you kitties don’t want a divisive POTUS.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  374. *while halving

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  375. A couple of selected tweets from Trayvon:

    Shuda neva went -___-

    BEND IT OVA HOE!!—–>_|¯|○

    HE KNOCKN ON DA DOOR DONT [LET] DA DEVIL IN

    im READY for a REAL relationship im talking mama meetin and all

    RT @stillblazingtho: R E T W E E T If you smoke #weed.

    TRUST NO 1…. KEEP YO FRIENZ CLOS ND FOEZ CLOSER

    WORST YEAR OF MY ”LIFE”!

    Icy (e73414)

  376. Dave,
    Try to follow along: Zimmerman claims Martin attacked him; eye witness claims that Martin attacked Zimmerman. Someone here comments that Martin attacked Zimmerman, and you say that’s just Zimmerman’s side of it, and that you don’t trust the word of guy in the hot seat, thereby ignoring the eye witness account.

    I know that’s hard to follow, what, with it being the entire freaking subject of the post and all, but do try to keep up. But I like how you completely ignore my challenge to cite one piece of evidence that Zimmerman was just picking on the black kid walking.

    It’s easier to just say, “nuh uh, he’s racist!”

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  377. Apparently the lead investigator wasn’t convinced about Zimmerman’s version of events.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674#.T3Iyp2GPVV4

    I saw another article off of drudge that named 2 witnesses who claimed they heard a younger person calling for help and another who saw Zimmerman on top of martin. The article didn’t say (or I don’t remember) if this was before or after the gunshot.

    Also, the girlfriend claims that the ‘scuffle’ started right after martin asked someone “why are you following me.” Chronology may matter.

    I’m not sure I know what happened. But I am pretty sure that there’s more to be learned in this case. I don’t think “The Evidence” is done being discovered.

    time123 (aa4765)

  378. “eye witness claims that Martin attacked Zimmerman”

    Not one eyewitness has said that (that I’ve heard).

    You believe you’ve heard that, because that’s what you want to believe. IMO.

    You, and a bunch of other people.

    Including some smart people who ought to know better.

    Of course, the minute I see a statement from an eyewitness that says Martin was the aggressor, and that witnessed the entire series of events, and that can refute what the 911 recordings indicate, I’ll change my mind about who attacked who.

    But, i think it’s real unlikely that’s going to happen.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  379. No witness ever saw the start of the fight. The witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman didn’t establish who started the fight – only who was losing it. Anyways, this should be possible to check with forensics: What was the entry point & angle of the bullet? If Martin was on top of Zimmerman when he was shot, then the bullet should be consistent with that scenario – it should have entered at or below his lower chest and at an upwards angle. There should also be “powder burns” on Martins shirt and chest due to the immediate proximity. So far I’ve seen no indication that any of these things were checked, much less answers.

    Besides, there is one major aspect to Zimmermans story that I find very implausible.

    It would be one thing to confront a man who is following you while he is in the act of following you. It’s another thing to run, failing to escape and than, being cornered, fighting in desperation. Both of those scenarios make sense and are consistent. It is differently thing ENTIRELY to choose to run and, just moments after you successfully lose your tail, then decide to not only stop running but to completely change tack and decide to now search-out your ex-pursuer and assault him without warning. If you weren’t afraid, then why run? If you were afraid enough to run and managed to get away, then why would you throw success away and decide to backtrack and attack the guy you were previously afraid enough of to run away to begin with?

    Remember, Zimmerman said that Martin had been he had LOST Martin and that he had gotten out of his car to check a street sign (in his own neighborhood) when Martin came out of no where and attacked him from behind. In order to believe Zimmerman, you have to believe that Martin ditched his tail and then, rather than continuing home, decided for some reason to throw it away and back-track and attack the guy he had just successfully evaded.

    We don’t know what happened to start the physical fight, but it is not at all unreasonable to find Zimmermans story less-than-credible.

    libarbarian (90bd00)

  380. OK, official, Dave is an imbecile.

    Trayvon is innocent because he got shot.

    Zimmerman is guilty because he did the shooting.

    Eye witnesses support the fact Zimmerman was assaulted.

    Zimmerman physical conditions supports the fact he was assaulted.

    … but to Dave he is guilty.

    OY. Under this line of thinking the self defense is never an option.

    Bill (af584e)

  381. Let’s say Z did keep following Tayvon. I have never heard that Z pulled out his weapon until he was on the ground.

    Did being followed give Tayvon justification to mount him/break his nose/and slam his head into concrete (as far as I understand it)?

    Noodles (3681c4)

  382. Trayvon, sorry.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  383. #380. Sure, let us get facts. Let us reconstruct a timeline.

    .. but again, if one man is on top of the other and pounding him then suffice to to say it was self defense regardless of who started the fight. Again, focus on facts not what you want to believe.

    But if you want to play this game … if Zimmerman wanted to kill Trayvon, why start a fight and risk the tables being turned. Just shoot him.

    So, all your line of reasoning does is prove that not all actions are rationale. People sometimes react in weird ways. Maybe Trayvon ditched him, when fat boy got our of the car Trayvon took a look at pudgie and said “I can kick his ass.” So Trayvon went to beat down the cracker. Trayvon was a big athletic young boy right?

    Just as reasonable way to think about it.

    Bill (af584e)

  384. More Trayvon:

    I keep ha dripn lyk a brokn sink

    I GOT DA RITE 2 B COCKY

    Icy (e73414)

  385. People just want to persecute fat boy Zimmerman b/c they think he is a racist and in today’s society that is worse then anything ever!!!!!!!

    So, to me, I do think Zimmerman is a racist pig. Did he antagonize this young man? Probably. Who started the fight? I dunno.

    But Zimmermam was getting his ass kicked by all accounts when he gunned down the boy and that makes Zimmerman innocent.

    Forensics will prove a great deal in this debate.

    Bill (af584e)

  386. “But Zimmermam was getting his ass kicked by all accounts when he gunned down the boy and that makes Zimmerman innocent.”

    So if I were to walk up and punch you in the face for no reason and then shoot you after you started kicking my ass in retaliation, I would be justified and “innocent”?

    libarbarian (90bd00)

  387. It’s just a darn shame that when the bullet was fired it could not have hit T’s shoulder or ankle to slow him down during the attack. But if Z reached for his gun while T was on top of him and he was being was pummeled, there was probably not much chance to aim. The whole thing is just one big darn shame for all involved and for our country. There are so many little aspects of the incident that if they had happened just a little differently would have changed everything.

    elissa (89f75d)

  388. “Eye witnesses support the fact Zimmerman was assaulted.”

    It’s not a fact, it’s just a claim by Zimmerman, and no eyewitness has said anything that supports that claim.

    And, the only people acting like imbeciles are the one’s claiming otherwise.

    No matter how desperately you want to believe that Martin assaulted Zimmerman, a witness claiming that he saw two guys fighting doesn’t support what you want to believe.

    And, your insinuation that I’m claiming that Trayvon Martin must be innocent just because he got shot is fatuous and dishonest nonsense.

    That’s the kind of crap I expect from nitwit lefties, not from the kind of people who post here.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  389. Elissa, I get the sentiment. No one wants to see a 17 year old killed.

    However, if it is true Trayvon was slamming his head into concrete, I think that made it justified.

    In that scenario Trayvon was the one using unnecessary force.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  390. “Zimmerman physical conditions supports the fact he was assaulted.”

    No. It only supports the fact that he was in a fight, which is uncontested.

    libarbarian (90bd00)

  391. #388

    No, it’s a darn shame that a loose cannon like Zimmerman ever had a gun in the first place, or was allowed to take part in whatever ad hoc neighborhood watch thing they had going on there.

    Unfortunately, if we let the government disarm clowns like him, they’re also going to disarm the rest of us, so the only way we can deal with idiots, like old George, is to go after them after they do something bad, like blow away a kid.

    It’s too bad that they didn’t drop a hammer on him after he attacked a police officer, or after he was accused of domestic violence or after he repeatedly broke the law by using 911 services to pursue his petty neighborhood disputes, but’s it too late to worry about that now.

    Hindsight, as they say, is always keen.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  392. Dave–why do you consistently ignore the injuries to Zimmerman’s head and face? This is the part of your “argument” that I am having the most trouble with (and also apparently makes no sense to a lot of other people).

    If, say, my neighbor’s pet dog comes at me as I am walking, and for whatever reason decides to attack me and take me to the ground–
    and it is biting my face and neck–
    and I have a gun and shoot it in self defense–
    even though there were no witnesses or not enough witnesses–
    don’t the blood and obvious injuries to my person count for something as support to my version of events?

    To be VERY clear, I am not equating the dog’s life to a teenaged boy’s life. But how is the concept of my injuries being proof of an attack not similar?

    elissa (89f75d)

  393. Dave, If something similar happens to me how many blows does my head have to take to concrete before I can deem the man is trying to kill me?

    Noodles (3681c4)

  394. When Zimmerman called the police 40+ times to report suspicious activity, were they all black people? Aside from Martin being black and Zimmerman being not black, where is there evidence that Zimmerman is a racist?

    Or could it be that looking into windows on a rainy night constitutes “suspicious activity?”

    Dave,
    The problem with your logic is that everything you’re basing your conclusions on are assumptions at best. You’ve assumed the worst of Zimmerman, but not of Martin. Zimmerman is a hot head, a racist, a neighborhood vigilante with an itchy trigger finger, while Martin was just walking around. If that were truly the case, this would have been an open/shut case.
    The only wound on Martin that I’ve heard of was the gunshot wound. Was his nose also broken? Was his head cracked against the pavement? Damage done to his ribs from a sucker punch? Any evidence at all that Zimmerman started the fight?

    I’m asking seriously. I haven’t heard about any other injuries to Martin, while Zimmerman got the crap beat out of him.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  395. “Dave–why do you consistently ignore the injuries to Zimmerman’s head and face?”

    I have never done that.

    Not even once.

    The police stated that he had minor injuries, apparently sustained in a scuffle,

    I take it as a given that that’s the case, and I’ll continue to do so until I have reason to doubt it.

    How many times, and how many different ways do I have to say it?

    And, why do you folks continue to claim that I’m “ignoring” Zimmerman’s injuries, when I’ve mentioned them time after time?

    Do you have difficulty reading? Cognitive impairment?

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  396. Dave Surls’ point is that (at least at the moment) there does not appear to be any evidence as to how the “fight” part of confrontation began.

    Z says he was cold-cocked w/o any more warning than a snarky remark.

    I might note that bleeding from a broken nose and having had the back of my head pounded multiple times into concrete would probably not inspire me to invent coherent falsehoods moments later, but Z might well be made of sterner stuff.

    Dave, I do wish to point out your following remark from a previous post:

    +++++++++++++++
    “In any case, Zimmerman is the guy who provoked the confrontation, without having a single legitimate reason to do so, and HE, not Martin seems to be the one engaging in illegal acts. He has no legitimate claim to self-defense, any more than a bank robber does if he happens to get hit during the commission of a bank robbery.”
    ++++++++++++++

    I think your conclusory comment sufers from the same infirmity of non-information. We have no evidence Z provoked a confrontation. He said he was walking back at that point. Maybe he is not telling the truth, but we do not know, just as we do not know who may have thrown the first punch.

    Z may have been following, but that is not an illegal act, let alone any sort of an adequate legal provocation to violence. Thus, your comparison to a robber defending himself during the commission of a felony appears bogus.

    jim2 (c47ebf)

  397. Here is the CNN report (yeah, I know, but if he said it, he said it) in which an network audio tech isolates the word that seems to most listeners to be “coons.” We know what the first word is.

    http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/22/did-trayvon-martins-shooter-use-slur-in-911-tapes/

    L.N. Smithee (7b0e77)

  398. Dave, I am really disappointed in your attack on Zimmerman over this issue; especially as you have been (in the past) a consistent voice of reason on the issue of self-defense IRC.
    Zimmerman strikes me as a citizen concerned about crime in his neighborhood (why else would he volunteer for Neighborhood Watch, and undergo the training – I assume the local PD has some training to familiarize NW participants with the proceedures that the PD would like followed), no different than many millions of others who see a deterioration in the neighborhoods in which they live.
    The fact that he has a CCW, and carries a gun for self-protection would only be relevant if he was the aggressor in this matter – which the facts do not support. As someone who holds a CA Security Guard license, and has been trained in the precept of “observe and report”, his actions do not depart from that dictum.
    But, when attacked by this “innocent ute”, was he not allowed to defend himself? And, when he found himself being pummelled, and his head being driven into the ground (a possibly deadly form of assault), was he not within his bounds in considering that the attack could result in the loss of his life?
    And, if he was resonably led to believe that continuation of the attack would result in the loss of life to himself (or others), his use of deadly force in defense of his life is entirely justifiable under the laws of FL, and practically every other sane jurisdiction within this country(even CA – WI I might not be too sure of).

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  399. Elisaa,

    His injuries only prove he was in a fight. They tell us nothing about how the fight started, or who initiated the physical confrontation. They certainly don’t prove that Trayvon initiated the physical contact, much less launched a willful assault on Zimmerman.

    Zimmerman could have the exact same injuries if he had made the move to grab or otherwise physically detain Martin from walking away (to keep him there for the police) and had, in response, been punched in the face and fell and hit his head. That is a very plausible hypothetical (especially given his expressed anger at how “they always get away”).

    libarbarian (90bd00)

  400. I’m done. I can only conclude that when Dave S. writes his comments he sees the words which he uses, and conclusions which he draws (or does not draw) differently than many other people who read those same words in his posts. Connecting dots. It’s an art, not a science. Cognition? We’re all different.

    elissa (89f75d)

  401. @ 398 Or he said Punks.

    http://minx.cc/?post=327838

    Noodles (3681c4)

  402. I find it rather odd that Sanford Police are so poorly esteemed by ex-officers with extreme prejudice.

    Curious.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  403. Here is the CNN report (yeah, I know, but if he said it, he said it) in which an network audio tech isolates the word that seems to most listeners to be “coons.” We know what the first word is.

    LN,
    This has been thoroughly debunked. Thoroughly debunked.

    F**kin punks. Not coons. Punks.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  404. I base that on the fact that’s it’s a misdemeanor to use 911 services to “report” things that aren’t emegencies. Like black kids walking down the street, for example.

    Get convicted of doing it four times, and it’s a felony.

    Zimmerman appears to have done this numerous times, to carry out little neighborhood vendettas and fulfill his Dirty Harry fantasies. The authorities should have slapped him down a long time ago. They didn’t, and now somebody is dead.

    Well, I’m glad to know I can’t call 9/11 if my neighbor’s house is burning down if I’m not sure they are inside.

    Seriously, you sound more moronic with every post you put up.

    shipwreckedcrew (e57b7e)

  405. Or noodles can beat me to it.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  406. “You’ve assumed the worst of Zimmerman, but not of Martin. Zimmerman is a hot head…”

    Well, let’s see, according to media reports, he has an arrest for felony battery on a police officer, and resisting arrest, a domestic violence allegation, he calls the cops constantly complaining about all kinds of petty crap, including making bogus 911 calls about pool parties, and then he caps it all off by getting in a fight with, and then shooting an unarmed teenager, who appears to have been doing nothing wrong at the time Zimmerman started messing with him.

    Pardon me, for wildly leaping to the conclusion that he might just have a bit of a problem temper-wise, not to mention judgement-wise.

    Yeah, that’s right, I’m assuming the guy is a hothead and a loose cannon.

    My bad.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  407. Dave –

    You have no evidence that “Zimmerman started messing with him.”

    Z says otherwise and, so far, there is no evidence to the contrary.

    jim2 (c47ebf)

  408. “Well, I’m glad to know I can’t call 9/11 if my neighbor’s house is burning down if I’m not sure they are inside.”

    A house on fire is an emergency, period.

    A black kid (or any kid) walking down the street isn’t.

    Moron.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  409. Dave, if he has all of those violations in his jacket, why hasn’t the State of Florida pulled his CCW?

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  410. Everything you said about Z may be true Dave, but the minute Trayvon started slamming his head into the concrete (again, assuming that is true) it doesn’t matter. It was reasonable for Z to think Tray was trying to kill him.

    Trayvon was the first to use unnecessary force.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  411. Dave, you’re not building a lot of Brownie-Points with this line of “reasoning”.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  412. libarbarian @ 380 — one of the earliest news reports I have read (March 8, I think), said the location of the shooting was about 30 yards from the residence he was trying to return to — his father’s finance.

    So, it seems to me he had returned to where he was looking for, and ran across Martin at that location.

    shipwreckedcrew (e57b7e)

  413. And with all the evidence that Martin was a petty thief and wannabe gangster? He couldn’t possibly be a hot head, too. Moreover, he couldn’t have possibly been looking for empty houses to break into. Just walking innocently. And Zimmerman definitely started the confrontation, as you said earlier, before bitching about “facts not in evidence.”

    And an allegation of domestic violence does not evidence make. A conviction, sure. but allegations? Come on, now. Be smarter than that.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  414. Dave
    You seem to be under the impression that Zimmerman called the police to report a black kid walking in his neighborhood, not doing anything but walking.
    Have you listened to the call?

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  415. Don’t confuse Dave with facts.
    His mind is made up (with what, has still to be determined).

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  416. By the way, FedSec from the F&F threads some weeks ago, has been on the prowl.

    narciso (83bb81)

  417. If Z had accosted T and brandished his gun, and then T knocked Z down and the struggle was him was trying to either get the gun away from Z or otherwise prevent its use, then I think Dave would be right on all counts.

    If that is what happened, then Z is one hell of a fine and improvising liar, and all the witnesses just happened to first catch sight of events just after it was too late.

    The existing circumstantial evidence appears to be consistent with Z’s account. If Z were really “good” and really “lucky,” then it would anyway.

    At the moment, I think Occam’s Razor is with the Z version.

    jim2 (c47ebf)

  418. he has an arrest for felony battery on a police officer, and resisting arrest, a domestic violence allegation

    Idk about Florida but I would guess you can’t have a concealed carry permit if that is true.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  419. So the facts supporting Zimmerman’s account are all suppositions that can be dissected to prove he is a liar.

    But yet, it is fact Zimmerman hunted down the boy and shot him.

    Bill (af584e)

  420. I have a carry permit and (in my State at least)you cannot have any violence charges or felonies on your record.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  421. Zimmerman Innocent Facts 2 — Trayvon Innocent Facts 0

    About how I see it.

    Bill (af584e)

  422. #419. Um, yep.

    But that is why I say Z Innocent Facts 2 – T Innocent Facts 0

    Bill (af584e)

  423. Can you imagine those poor black people who have defended Zimmerman’s character?

    Bill (af584e)

  424. Oh, bother. Some frat-sponsored rally at te new stadium, with incessant drums and angry, socially conscious rapping is being inflicted on us here for the last hour and a half with no sign of stopping.

    ANNOY YOUR NEIGHBORS FOR TRAYVON!!!

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  425. No use calling campus to complain, no way are they shutting this one down.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  426. If some boy just got murdered in cold blood because he was black I could understand the outrage.

    That does not seem to be what happened here.

    To me it looks like self-defense with the media pulling an outrageous smear of the man and conservatives in general.

    I will be more than happy to change my opinion if the facts change.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  427. Sweet new fact – Z is a registered Democrat.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  428. Also, I hope Dave is not mad.

    I like reading his opinions, though I think he is wrong on this one.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  429. The lead investigator recommended manslaughter and the chief prosecutor, who has since stepped aside, said there wasn’t enough evidence.

    tifosa (f57603)

  430. At the scene, the lead investigator didn’t find Zimmerman’s account credible

    tifosa (f57603)

  431. Watching The Ed Show tifosa? lol

    Noodles (3681c4)

  432. I’m mad about the kid getting shot, by some wannabe Law Dog that doesn’t follow the law himself.

    Other than that, I’m o.k.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  433. Not so new, SarahW…

    299. Shooter Zimmerman a registered Democrat…

    http://freebeacon.com/registered-dem-killed-trayvon/

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 3/27/2012 @ 9:55 am

    Colonel Haiku (5e7be8)

  434. 356. “Go back to talking about Obama’s record….because that is precisely what they don’t want us to do.”

    Yep.

    Colonel Haiku (5e7be8)

  435. Can we all agree that it is BS to turn this into a race-based political argument?

    The man was Hispanic and he was a Democrat (who has black family members, friends, and kids he mentored).

    Noodles (3681c4)

  436. It came out two hours ago noodles. Why is it on Ed? What station is that show on Noodles?

    tifosa (f57603)

  437. LN,
    This has been thoroughly debunked. Thoroughly debunked.

    F**kin punks. Not coons. Punks.

    Comment by Ghost — 3/27/2012 @ 4:06 pm

    Oh, really? Well then, you better tell his lawyer and his friend Joe Oliver, because they’re both on record as saying Zimmerman said “goons” with a G rather than “punks” with a P.

    Watch this. Watch it THOROUGHLY!

    L.N. Smithee (dfcddb)

  438. “Can we all agree that it is BS to turn this into a race-based political argument?

    The man was Hispanic and he was a Democrat (who has black family members, friends, and kids he mentored).”

    Comment by Noodles

    It’s already “race-based” and it is a little ironic that he’s a Democrat. That’s all.

    My adult children are classified by the government as “white”, though their mother – my wife – is of Mexican ethnicity. I just think of them as American, just as I think of Trayvon Martin, Jesse Jackson, Jeremy Lin and George Zimmerman.

    Colonel Haiku (5e7be8)

  439. Skin pigmentation should account for nothing in our country. We have enough “tribalism” in this world.

    Colonel Haiku (5e7be8)

  440. MSNBC

    You’ll enjoy it if you aren’t concerned with the facts.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  441. Tommy Xtopher. Really?

    JD (318f81)

  442. When are those black panthers with the bounty getting arrested?

    That one should be easily provable.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  443. Oh, really? Well then, you better tell his lawyer and his friend Joe Oliver, because they’re both on record as saying Zimmerman said “goons” with a G rather than “punks” with a P.

    Watch this. Watch it THOROUGHLY!

    Comment by L.N. Smithee

    It really does sound like punks to me. Ace’s point about the levels of the word are interesting. Punks has varying stress and “coons” is more consistent in stress.

    Also, it’s hard to imagine he calls the cops all the time and just blurts out racial slurs like that.

    The lawyer, Oliver, offered an asinine defense that included a ‘big deal… lots of people like being called coon’. I think he needs to shut the hell up.

    Might I add that that link is one of the least professional news articles I’ve ever read in my life, including arguments such as “what the effing eff”. I knew before scrolling up to check that this had to Tommy “idiot” Christopher’s work.

    You cannot rely on Tommy Christopher to provide both sides of the story. I can’t even rely on him to understand his side. But you can rely on him to take one side and aggressively shill for it.

    A man’s life is probably at stake here, so I do hope Oliver considers a ‘do no harm’ maxim before entering the fray again. Too many Tommy Christophers will gladly take whatever they can get for spin.

    I’m pretty sure the word as “punk”. I think not only does it sound more like “punk” but it’s a lot more realistic that this is what someone would say when trying to get the cops to come resolve a suspicious person’s report.

    Dustin (330eed)

  444. Well Lawrence O’Donnell is busy mining the free range crazy, which is not as easy as it seems with Sharpton, and company, getting the choicier nuggets

    narciso (83bb81)

  445. “Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, “Well, you do now” or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police.”

    This little dialogue is why I am inclined to take Zimmerman’s word. That’s some very real sounding dialogue and I don’t think Zimmerman is bright enough to make something like that up on the spot, especially with all the stress and a busted nose.

    I could be wrong…. but this testimony to police sounds very authentic.

    Auntie Fraud (2f38aa)

  446. Sharpton’s still out there inciting mayhem and he’s still employed by MSLSD, part of NBC and owned by Comcast. Please remember that if you are in their service area and haven’t switched to another provider.

    Colonel Haiku (5e7be8)

  447. “Well, you do now”… doesn’t seem to square with those twitterisms Icy was quoting.

    Colonel Haiku (5e7be8)

  448. I’m mad about the kid getting shot, by some wannabe Law Dog that doesn’t follow the law himself.

    Other than that, I’m o.k.

    Comment by Dave Surls — 3/27/2012 @ 5:19 pm

    Jesus H Christ Dave, you never fail to amaze. Where on earth did you get the information that Zimmerman wants to be “Law Dog”?

    labcatcher (61737c)

  449. “Well, you do now”… doesn’t seem to square with those twitterisms Icy was quoting.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 3/27/2012 @ 6:09 pm

    Reminds me of a story about one of those guys who perpetrated a fake hate crime. When he moved into a new apartment building, there was graffiti that turned up one morning reading “KILL ALL BLACKS KKK.” The police questioned him about having done it himself, and he fessed up. The key clue, as one of the cops said: “Since when does the KKK say ‘blacks?'”

    L.N. Smithee (7b0e77)

  450. I was half-kidding, LN. The kid had quite a creative mouth on him.

    Colonel Haiku (5e7be8)

  451. LN,
    You should know better than this. This isn’t about what his lawyer or friend think he said, it’s about the audio evidence. There is a distinct “kss” sound at the end, and a very distinct “puh” at the beginning.

    And tommy Christopher? Seriously, bro.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  452. LN,
    You should know better than this.

    Well, it’s not LN’s fault that Zimmerman’s apparent advocate offered such a terrible defense as ‘maybe he did say coons, but it’s no biggie’.

    But I agree with you that this doesn’t change what the audio indicates.

    Dustin (330eed)

  453. I agree with others that further investigation is warranted but it appears the story Zimmerman told the police immediately after this happened was supported by some evidence and witness testimony. In addition, as far as I can tell, Zimmerman hasn’t changed his story. Consistency can be very persuasive in convincing jurors (including grand jurors) who to believe.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  454. #40. Joe, Zimmerman’s friend, actually said that “goons” was part of a “term of endearment” (I remember the hashtag.) No, seriously, TERM OF ENDEARMENT.

    tifosa (f57603)

  455. Doesn’t Something Awful use Goon as a term of endearment? It’s not that hard to believe.

    But it was also a very unhelpful defense. Especially since he said “punks”.

    Dustin (330eed)

  456. Actually, if T threatened Z, he himself may have violated Florida Statute 843.20.

    It recognizes the neighborhood crime watch participants and gives them legal protection in the performance of those duties.

    http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/843.20

    jim2 (c47ebf)

  457. Justified starts soon

    JD (318f81)

  458. Yes!

    Colonel Haiku (e2d894)

  459. Speaking of Justified, does anyone here think that Dicky Bennett probably resembles a constant poster on this thread?

    And, no, it’s not me.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  460. Best series I have ever watched.

    JD (318f81)

  461. Well it’s certainly up there, Besides Marshall Givens, Boyd Crowder, makes for an interesting
    antihero, I guess that is Shane’s talent,

    narciso (83bb81)

  462. _____________________________________________

    Dave, I am really disappointed in your attack on Zimmerman over this issue; especially as you have been (in the past) a consistent voice of reason on the issue of self-defense IRC.

    Not sure what fuels his political biases, but he seems way more bothered by Zimmerman than Martin. I could relate to that if (1) Martin had a rather spotless background, and if (2) Zimmerman had experienced absolutely no physical repercussions from Martin.

    I dislike the naivete (or disingenuousness) of those people, most of them of the left, who try to be so noble and intellectual about the harsh reality that exists in various American communities. They don’t mind being talking heads (or armchair quarterbacks) from a distance, but if they had to live the reality up-close-and-personal — by moving to the middle of neighborhoods where dysfunction reigns supreme — they’d end up with battle fatigue. They’d soon find themselves hollering “get me the hell outta here!”

    One thing that may make it more possible that Zimmerman is a lousy judge of people and situations is that he is…

    Sweet new fact – Z is a registered Democrat.

    He very well could be the type who’s more likely to give a stranger like Treyvon Martin lots of latitude and benefit of the doubt. To say to himself “I don’t want to appear to be racist or intolerant. After all, I’m a Democrat, not a Republican!!!” IOW, he could be the type more likely to end up sucker punched.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  463. Not as compelling as “The Wire”, but damned good, nonetheless.

    Colonel Haiku (b4c74f)

  464. Zimmerman is entitled to the presumption of innocence and Martin’s memory is entitled to the benefit of the doubt. One life has been ended and another has been ruined. We don’t know the facts, we’re just speculating, and to the best extent we can we should keep it on the hypothetical level.

    (Except for the Black Panthers. There’s nothing hypothetical about them. They are literally garbage.)

    nk (dec503)

  465. Nothing is better than The Sopranos. Not one thing! lol

    Noodles (3681c4)

  466. Best series I have ever watched.

    Comment by JD — 3/27/2012 @ 7:14 pm

    nk (dec503)

  467. Best series I have ever watched.

    Comment by JD — 3/27/2012 @ 7:14 pm

    Sorry. Meant to say that all the episodes of Have Gun, Will Travel are free on Youtube. The early episodes of Gunsmoke, too.

    nk (dec503)

  468. Dave Surls, your pattern seems to be to make up stuff to support your belief, then attack people who themselves are making inferences to support their belief and when you are called on it to call others names.

    Not impressive.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  469. Well the “Wire” is just too grim, ‘Justified’ gives
    some of the same elements, a whimsical twist

    narciso (83bb81)

  470. “Deadwood” was the best of all time and I challenge any of you c____suckers to prove otherwise. Losers get fed to the pigs.

    Al Swearengen (c1fe23)

  471. Deadwood never ended.

    I am still bitter that HBO couldn’t pay for 2 more shows to be made.

    That alone takes it off the list.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  472. Never bothered to watch Deadwood. It’s for sissy-boys who want to be Calamity Jane.

    nk (dec503)

  473. apparently sanford police have now leaked that actually they asked for an arrest warrant to be issued for zimmerman. the article hints that the charge was for negligent manslaughter, but attorney would not confirm. guess they didn’t think zimmerman was “innocent”, regardless of how this played out.

    http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/sanford-police-had-requested-arrest-warrant-for-george-zimmerman-in/1222259

    milowent (0f8248)

  474. I am sure that the cops and DA never have a different view of a case.

    JD (318f81)

  475. What profanities and racial slurs, punks, Good Allah, (sorry JD) they are holding on to that template for dear life.

    narciso (83bb81)

  476. “Dave, I am really disappointed in your attack on Zimmerman over this issue; especially as you have been (in the past) a consistent voice of reason on the issue of self-defense IRC.”

    I’m afraid I’m going to continue to disappoint you in regard to this particular case (unless fresh evidence comes to light), though I suspect I won’t disappoint you on the issue of the right to self-defense and the absolute right of individuals to keep and bear arms (as long as they don’t do something bad enough to justify taking that right away, like rob banks or murder folks).

    The Florida statutes on self-defense are excellent, although I think their gun ownership and carry laws are way too strict.

    But, this particular case is NOT a case of self-defense, IMO, so we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  477. milowent, that doesn’t really surprise me. But I do think it would be pretty hard to prove a case against Z.

    I can totally believe that the police thought Zimmerman’s community watch work was literally negligent (failure to take the proper care), but I don’t think that would actually fly in a courtroom..

    Dustin (330eed)

  478. On his blog roll, one finds Gawker and the Daily Dish, and Talking Points Measure, I didn’t see
    a Raw Story link, but that would be superfluous

    narciso (83bb81)

  479. “Assault of a police officer” sounds serious.

    “In 2005, Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest with violence. State alcohol agents said Zimmerman pushed them while they were arresting a friend of his during an underage drinking operation at a bar. Zimmerman avoided a conviction by going into a pretrial program that is offered to people with no prior arrests.”

    A 250 unit town house complex as “gated community”, Sanford 57% ‘White’ and 30% ‘Black’.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  480. The hits keep coming:

    Spike Lee tweets the wrong address as Z’s.

    Cousin queries Trayvon about his swinging on bus driver.

    Shabazz a no show for Sanford rally.

    Tracy Martin adds “Suspended for being in unauthorized area” to baggie and burglar kit knocks.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  481. “Dave Surls, your pattern seems to be to make up stuff…”

    Your pattern seems to be making vague, baseless false accusations.

    And, that poasibly explains why you’re such a big George Zimmerman fan.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  482. own private gated
    mental community for
    teh sorosmonkeys

    Colonel Haiku (f4cb77)

  483. Heh! http://www.saysuncle.com/2012/03/28/oops-31/ Black Panther who put out wanted poster on Zimmerman arrested as felon in possession of a firearm. Sweet karma? No. Typical Black Panther? Yes.

    nk (dec503)

  484. milowent @476

    Don’t read too much into the Police sending a complaint over top the D/A. It’s S.O.P. (particularly in a high profile case) to do that. More cases get rejected than get prosecuted.

    The cops are going to take a report on a major incident like this, laying out what they have done and/or discovered. They may have an opinion about whether or not it’s a good candidate for trial but either way it’s going to the D/A..

    The decision to prosecute is up to the D/A.

    labcatcher (61737c)

  485. @487 labcatcher – i agree. its not even clear from the story whether the decision to prosecute or not was even made? i’m not sure.

    milowent (d3dcb6)

  486. Hubs tells me Tommyx went a little nuts about the twitter stream published at Daily Caller.

    Made me want to bang MY head on the pavement. Somewhere upstream you in this thread I think I mention (pre-DCaller article) that the whole thing is still on Research.ly. (There’s a “peoplebrowser” utility there that lets you look over archived tweet activity going back 1000 days).

    Tommy’s all “WHERE DID YOU GET THAT” as if some kind of dirty game is afoot.

    It was easy to find because Martin used a picture linked to his myspace account.

    So, two search utilities that figured prominently in Weiner-rama – Researchly and Google image math, used to get Jenay/Starchild tweets (and those of other persons/socks) and to search for the images of “Nikki” and “Marianela” that are available to Tommy and anyone else, are a mystery to him.

    What is wrong with him that he doesn’t even know how to look this stuff up?

    SarahW (b0e533)

  487. ==you’re such a big George Zimmerman fan==

    Fan. Interesting choice of words. Is that what you really mean to say? Is that how this all comes across to you? I ask because I don’t think I’ve seen much in the Patterico comment threads that suggest “fandom” for Z.in the context that most people define the word “fan”.

    What I have seen is people who are struggling to understand what really happened when Trayvon died and how it could have happened. I’ve read many insightful comments which attempt to show both Z and T as part of a larger tragedy– by commenters who seek to integrate how each man’s background and actions and reactions that night may have contributed to the tragedy. I’ve read many commenters who demonstrate compassion, who appear to seek proportion, and whose goal seems mainly to assure that honest portrayals of *both* Trayvon and Zimmerman are presented in the media narrative.

    elissa (2cb2d2)

  488. Certain information, which exists but has not yet been released, will be enlightening. Not the least of this includes Trayvon’s call to 911 minutes before the shooting, with someone (Zimmerman?) shouting in the background, currently with the FBI. This may have been to report his plan to jump Zimmerman, but I say let’s wait and see. btw, this could totally debunk Zimmerman’s statement that he never gave up pursuing Trayvon.

    tifosa (a11150)

  489. Certain information, which exists but has not yet been released,

    And you know this, how? Your crack-dream?

    nk (dec503)

  490. Dave Surls writes: “And, that poasibly explains why you’re such a big George Zimmerman fan.

    Amusing that you call others liars while writing lies like the above. Well, no, I did lie. I’m not amused.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  491. “Certain information, which exists but has not yet been released, will be enlightening.”

    tiffy – Is that a horoscope?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  492. nk – do you *really* mean to be feeding our current tifosa ?

    Alasdair (93b510)

  493. Feeling mean, don’t mind kicking a rat.

    nk (dec503)

  494. This link is specifically for Dave. Perhaps it will shade his understanding.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/28/zimmerman-s-twin-lakes-community-was-on-edge-before-trayvon-shooting.html

    SarahW (b0e533)

  495. ____________________________________________

    “Assault of a police officer” sounds serious.

    “…State alcohol agents said Zimmerman pushed them while they were arresting a friend of his during an underage drinking operation at a bar.

    Actually, based on your pasted text, I’d have to give Zimmerman some slack. I originally envisioned him having a run-in with a typical cop wearing a uniform, which could easily (and logically) be immediately interpreted as a guy who acts like a flat-out hothead, perhaps who’s even (and ironically) defiant towards authority. But since it’s probable that the “police” he confronted was an agent dressed in plain street clothes, that gives me a different impression.

    Zimmerman may have reacted to the agent the same way some people want to interpret Trayvon Martin’s response to Zimmerman. Namely, a buttinsky and snoop at a local bar who was overstepping his boundaries and acting like a pest towards the patrons.

    This link is specifically for Dave.

    That background information is useful for everyone.

    Nothing irritates me more than those who give lots of leeway and benefit of the doubt to a Treyvon Martin (IOW, they think and act like a limousine liberal), while they themselves are happily, peacefully ensconced in a comparatively safe, tranquil community on the other side of town.

    Then again, some of the most crime-ridden neighborhoods in America are full of people, who like clockwork, will vote for a liberal, vote for a Democrat, no matter what. But at least their foolishness comes with a price. As their own worst enemy, they may suffer accordingly. But even some of them eventually will find their patience wearing thin, pack their bags and then move elsewhere—spreading their nonsense and purposeful naivete to a whole new community.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  496. Trayvon, RIP, is off the front page.

    After today’s severability arguments in SOTUS and Hunger Games’ anti-government popularity with teenies Fluke and Martin are footprints erased by the tide.

    gary gulrud (1de2db)

  497. 500. Despite the article’s undeniable value there are blatant falsehoods:

    “Under Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law, which allows people who believe they’re in danger to respond with deadly force, Zimmerman was not arrested”

    Narciso’s post above of the police report states on first page Z was arrested and charged with ‘Unnecessary Killing’ with a view to prosecuting as ‘Manslaughter’ at minimum.

    gary gulrud (1de2db)

  498. Comment by CrustyB — 3/27/2012 @ 7:46 am

    So all these people marching for Trayvon are essentially saying they would have preferred Zimmerman just lay there and allow a 6’3″ hoodrat to bash his white/Hispanic brains out on the sidewalk.

    No, they’re saying they don’t believe it happened that way. And it didn’t. The idea of Trayvon Martin beating his brains out is from the initial police report, which is mostly a fabrication, with only a loose connection to the facts.(my analysis)

    They think that George Zimmerman saw him and just wantonly attacked him as he was talking on his cell phone, in spite of having been told to stop following him. That’s wrong, too.

    Sammy Finkelman (5736b6)

  499. Sammy — how is the initial police report a fabrication? I’ve tried to keep up with your fantabulism, but with 500+ posts its a little difficult.

    The police report published today is pretty standard for a first responder who must secure the scene. Nothing in there is inconsistent with the statement that Zimmerman is reported to have given.

    You have 6 witnesses to one part of the incident or another. Some of their statements have been publicized, others have not.

    Nothing yet CONTRADICTS Zimmerman’s account.

    shipwreckedcrew (e57b7e)

  500. The Orlando Sentinel highlights four myths about this case and explains why each is not true. They are all interesting and worth reading, but here is the fourth myth and its answer:

    Police should have simply arrested Zimmerman and let a judge sort it out.

    Zimmerman has not been arrested because he told police he acted in self-defense, and then-Chief Lee said police did not have probable cause. Florida Statute 776.032 expressly prohibits police from arresting someone who had a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm. Police may investigate, the statute says, “but the agency may not arrest the person” without probable cause.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  501. DRJ — that is an EXTREMELY interesting provision of law. It really ties the hands of the first responders, and requires the matter to be submitted to investigators/prosecutors/or a neutral tribunal like a grand jury to make a determination that there is probable cause to believe the use of force was unlawful. There is no way for first responders on the scene to make that determination absent a confession of some sort from the suspect.

    So, release of Zimmerman pending a full investigation was required by statute.

    shipwreckedcrew (e57b7e)

  502. elderly couple
    don’t take points in Spike Lee “Joint”
    ain’t no pay-off there

    Colonel Haiku (f4cb77)

  503. If the circumstances had “confessed”, or the witnesses contradicted him in a way that provided probably cause, he could have been arrested on the spot. Difficulty – there was no evidence or witness available at that moment which provided probable cause for arrest.

    I can just hear the ready and supremely ignorant retory – “MARTIN WAS DEAD!!! and Zimmerman shot him – case closed!” As if, all by itself, the death by gunshot means a crime has occurred.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  504. probable not “probably” cause. I have the reading glasses. I just don’t have them on.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  505. Ace blogged about that. I guess I’m going to have to report him to internal affairs.

    http://ace.mu.nu/archives/327898.php

    SarahW (b0e533)

  506. Clayton Cramer has a great article discussing the policy context. For one, he notes how concealed handgun licensees commit far less crime than the general population. In Texas, about a tenth the rate. And he discusses just how common it is for a black man to be shot.

    It’s interesting to me that with 16 black men being killed every day, the focus is on a very unusual example instead of the common examples.

    Dustin (330eed)

  507. I’m going to have to report him to internal affairs.

    Dustin (330eed)

  508. Dammit. I meant to add a ‘heh’ to that.

    Dustin (330eed)

  509. Maybe the defense attorney can use that Dustin.

    tifosa (39a2ee)

  510. Dustin, stop trying to intimidate a FEDERAL WITNESS!!! =]

    Noodles (3681c4)

  511. he could even say “heh” at the end :^)

    tifosa (39a2ee)

  512. Sarah W, knock off the typos. Not acceptable.

    labcatcher (61737c)

  513. Maybe the defense attorney can use that Dustin.

    Comment by tifosa

    I don’t see how it’s relevant to Zimmerman’s case. you see: I don’t like taking extreme cases and trying to build policy on them. I think that’s a stunt and it’s not very honest.

    A lot of people want to discuss the racism here, and the truth is there probably wasn’t any until Al Sharpton and the racist lynch mob got started.

    A lot of people want to talk about the CHL issue, but it also seems misleading.

    Zimmerman doesn’t need to worry so much about attorneys. There isn’t enough evidence to convict him of a crime. He has to worry about the lynch mob. He can’t have an attorney present evidence and arguments to the lynch mob. He’s guilty because of the color of his skin and the color of Martin’s skin.

    Dustin (330eed)

  514. I’m waiting for Inspector Sammy’s analysis of what actually happened.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  515. The only reason this became a national story to begin with is because the media assumed Zimmerman was white.

    Remember, we can’t jump to conclusions when the names of the alleged criminal is named Hasan, Farouq, Abdullamutaub, Mohammad, but Zimmerman? Racist white cracker-ass cracker. Guilty.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  516. Sarah W, knock off the typos. Not acceptable.

    Comment by labcatcher — 3/28/2012 @ 1:52 pm

    Not acceptable? Not acceptable? Happyfeet never told me Not acceptable! Happyfeet never yelled at me!

    Vitreous floaters in Seattle aka sarahw (b0e533)

  517. #520 Actually, there was no mention of this in national press (that I know of, correct me if i’m wrong…..c’mon don’t be shy!) before the 911 tapes were released. The boy was killed in late-February, the tapes released about the second week in March. You do the math.

    tifosa (39a2ee)

  518. The issue of black on Hispanic assault really gets tiffyosa all hot and bothered.

    Huntsman

    JD (e5c06b)

  519. The issue of a closed case on this “really got” to a lot of people, JD.

    tifosa (39a2ee)

  520. The boy was killed in late-February, the tapes released about the second week in March. You do the math.

    2-3 weeks? Do I win something?

    Was Martin a boy? I see all those pictures of him on CNN and he looks like he was 11 years old.

    Maybe this is spin, though. I dunno. You do the math.

    Dustin (330eed)

  521. Changing my words and then quoting your words doesn’t make you less of a mendoycheous twatwaffle.

    JD (e5c06b)

  522. Changing my words and then quoting your words doesn’t seem all that bad

    Comment by John D Huntsman

    ftfy

    Dustin (330eed)

  523. “Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no…”

    “This little dialogue is why I am inclined to take Zimmerman’s word.”

    You members of the George Zimmerman fan club are beyond belief.

    If you take that testimony at face value (that is if you assume the girl’s memory is correct, and she’s telling the truth), it indicates that George Zimmerman is a big, fat liar.

    Obviously, he had a problem. He called the police, he described the kid as an “asshole” trying to get away. He was chasing after the kid. At least that’s how it looks to me.

    You guys are so sure your hero didn’t do anything wrong, that you refuse to see the obvious.

    You all have your eyes wide shut.

    “Trayvon Martin Was the Aggressor, According to the Evidence”

    Nah, there’s no evidence that indicates that, other than George Zimmerman’s ubsubstantiated claim (that I’ve heard).

    And, there’s all kinds of evidence that indicates otherwise, whether people want to see it or not.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  524. Why do we keep having to go through this, Dave? There is evidence substantiating Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense: Zimmerman had injuries to his head and grass on his back, a witness said Zimmerman was calling for help, and another witness said Zimmerman was on the ground with Trayvon on top hitting him. Is this conclusive proof? No, but it is evidence that supports Zimmerman’s claim … and that is almost certainly why the police haven’t charged Zimmerman with a crime.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  525. And this is speculation on my part, but maybe Zimmerman said “No” in response to Trayvon Martin’s question because Zimmerman had lost sight of Martin and was in the process of leaving. In other words, his interest in Martin had ended until Martin approached him.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  526. You members of the George Zimmerman fan club are beyond belief, coupled with the hero yammering shows how effing dishonest you have been, and remain, Surls.

    JD (318f81)

  527. Or maybe he said no because that is the most common response to that question.

    JD (318f81)

  528. #527 I’m sorry. I should have specified(hehe,) I did’t mean LITERALLY “do the math,” I meant national attention was stirred by the tapes.

    tifosa (39a2ee)

  529. Dave, if Z was following Trayvon did that give him justification to break his nose and slam his head into concrete (assuming that is true)?

    If that is true, they could have pulled off his shirt to see a giant swastika tattoo and it wouldn’t mean anything. It was reasonable for Z to assume Trayvon was trying to kill him.

    You seem to be the one ignoring the facts in place of story lines.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  530. I meant national attention was stirred by the tapes.

    Only it seems that Z was the one screaming on them, so the nation seems to have been deceived.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  531. Dave, you’ve departed from your senses.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  532. “Amusing that you call others liars…’

    Well, you are liar. You claimed that I was “ignoring” Zimmerman’s injuries, and the eyewitness testimony of the one person who actually them fighting, right after I’d just made a comment about those things.

    Here’s me talking about it:

    ‘143.“Come on David, a broken nose and bloodied back of the head are evidence of what, a waltz gone bad?”’

    ‘In this case, the statement made by the eyewitness appears to be evidence that Martin was the better fistfighter. And, that’s about it.’

    ‘Comment by Dave Surls — 3/26/2012 @ 9:46 pm’

    And, here’s you lying:

    ‘357.Dave Surls, yes you have done it repeatedly. You’ve chosen to ignore Zimmerman’s injuries, and the witness that saw him with Martin atop him prior to the shooting. And you’ve made your little snark about “assuming facts not in evidence” to be nothing but hypocrisy given your widespread assumption that your own speculation is fact.’

    ‘And your “Comment by Dave Surls — 3/27/2012 @ 12:27 pm” shows you’ve no intention of dealing seriously with any evidence that might actually make your confront your own conclusions.’

    ‘Comment by SPQR — 3/27/2012 @ 1:23 pm’

    You lie like a rug, pal.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  533. Why didn’t Trayvon call the police? Why didn’t he say to Zimmerman “call the police, I’ll wait.”?

    Noodles (3681c4)

  534. Why didn’t he say “I don’t feel comfortable talking to you, my Dad’s fiancee lives right over there.”?

    Because, I don’t believe he was just acting in an appropriate manor. Meaning, I think he was the one who got aggressive.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  535. Sometimes in life we have to deal with A-holes (if that is how Tray saw it) but that doesn’t mean we get to smash their faces in.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  536. Reginald Denny
    or Teh Surls both catch a brick
    can’t we get along?

    Colonel Haiku (f4cb77)

  537. ‘Why do we keep having to go through this, Dave? There is evidence substantiating Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense: Zimmerman had injuries to his head and grass on his back, a witness said Zimmerman was calling for help, and another witness said Zimmerman was on the ground with Trayvon on top hitting him. Is this conclusive proof?’

    Zimmerman’s injuries are evidence that he was injured…period. They do not substantiate Zimmerman’s claim that he was in acting in self-defense.

    The fact that a witness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, flailing away, is evidence that there was a scuffle, and pretty good evidence that Martin was winning the scuffle. Period. This does not substantiate Zimmerman’s claim to self-defense.

    There is NO evidence that susbstantiates Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense. All the pertinent evidence indicates otherwise. It was Zimmerman who was going after Martin, not the other way around.

    And, we’re going to keep going over it, until all that percolates through people’s brains, or until I get tired of saying it, which ever comes first.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  538. “Dave, you’ve departed from your senses.”

    Could be. Arguing with knuckleheads (or I should say people that sometimes act like knuckleheads) is rarely productive. So, it isn’t really sensible for me to do so.

    But, since I enjoy it…

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  539. “can’t we get along?”

    We all get along o.k.

    At least, we get along better than Zimmerman and Martin did.

    So far, nobody’s pulled a gun here, and started blasting.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  540. Trayvon’s mom is upset because he was murdered by the white hispanic and now his reputation is being murdered? What reputation? Looks like he was at least a gangsta wannabe if not a burglar. If sixteen black men die daily at the hands of other black men, what makes this one so special? Had be been shot to deaath in the drive-by at the hands of other blacks, would there be such a circus? Oh yeahm whitey has a war on blacks as Jesse Jackson the extortionist insists (read his unflattering biography).
    I don’t know any more than anyone else and I am not deifying honky Hispanic Zimmerman. What kind of name is Zimmerman anyway? Is he a nazi or a Jew or a Jew nazi like Soros? Oh, his stepdad is Jewish. I’ve read blacks opine that the white half of Zimmerman is the one that killed the martyr Martin. So who benefits from the pot being stirred? I suppose Obama hopes it is helpful to his never-ending election campaign. Perhaps the natives will riot this summer and the messiah can start using those executive orders powers to control the media and the internet or merely declare. Yes, I am aware that he already basically controls the media. My own bias leads me to think it is quite possible that Mr. Zimmerman saved some other people from victimhood at the hand of Mr. Martin down the road apiece.
    I can recall one mental patient in Philly suburbs over 20 years ago. He was a vicious black whackjob whom the system apparently failed. Terrible temper and easy to take offense. From what I read about the Martin fellow, he seems to have the same kind of chip on his shoulder. Of course that’s just my own take on it. I’m sure Mr Surls thinks Zimmerman is the one who should be dead, instead of defending himself. Anyway Derrick (his last name started with a S) was released from mental hospital and ended up stabbing a transit cop to death, but not before the cop fatally shot his sorry ass. Naturally the psycho’s family was then upset because said jackass was released into the community and they then sued the state, I believe.
    Would be something else if the jewelry foundon martin by the Miami-area school matched stuff stolen from the Sanford mixed-race gated community.
    Still wondering why media uses a 5 year old shot of Martin instead of a current one with tats and gold teeth grill? Yes, no reason for that to cause his death but then again, how many of you with a gun in your pocket, on the ground getting your head bashed in would refrain from defending yourself???? IMO it is not so much being innately black, but a cultural attitude of violence among blacks. Tifosa and Surls are clueless.

    Calypso Louis Farrakhan (d32e4c)

  541. The supporting evidence exists, Dave, but you don’t think it’s convincing. Lawyers call that an issue with the weight of the evidence, i.e., the evidence exists but it may not be persuasive.

    It’s for a jury to determine the weight or persuasiveness of the evidence so you are consistent on that point. However, apparently Florida law limits when a prosecutor can charge a crime if there is evidence supporting Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense. On the other hand, given the high profile of this case, I feel sure there will be charges of some kind — probably federal charges.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  542. Dave, how many times does one’s head have to bounce off the pavement before you would deem that was more than an ass kicking?

    Once? Twice? Thee times? Four times? Five times? Six times? Seven Times? Eight times? Nine times? Ten? More than ten? More than twenty? Thirty? Fifty? One hundred? Five hundred?

    I want to know the number in case I am ever in a similar situation and need to defend myself in the comment section of a blog.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  543. Spike Lee and Teh Naffe
    black American wing of
    Twitter Hall of Shame

    Colonel Haiku (f4cb77)

  544. Dave –

    As you have noted, Z called the various police #s many times (though not too many for a neighborhood watch person, per the police). I am unaware of any mention of him getting physical with the person he was calling about before.

    Was this time the one exception? Did he conduct himself in a different manner than he had before? To which there had been no previous complaints? Occam’s Razor would suggest otherwise, and that the difference was with the other person.

    jim2 (c47ebf)

  545. Here’s a clear cut case of using deadly force in self-defense.

    http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/01/05/greenbrae-90-year-old-recounts-home-invasion-gun-battle-from-hospital/

    You will note that Joseph Cutrufelli suffered injuries in this incident, namely he was shot three times. The fact that he suffered injuries would NOT substantiate a possible claim by Cutrufelli that he was acting in self-defense.

    The fact that he was injured is totally irrelevant in regard the issue of self-defense.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  546. “So far, nobody’s pulled a gun here, and started blasting.”

    http://youtu.be/1yqoO9pQk2o

    Colonel Haiku (f4cb77)

  547. How many times can you hit a man in the head with a brick before he could believe he might be killed? How about a bat? It’s the same difference.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  548. Here’s a clear cut case of using deadly force in self-defense.

    http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/01/05/greenbrae-90-year-old-recounts-home-invasion-gun-battle-from-hospital/

    You will note that Joseph Cutrufelli suffered injuries in this incident, namely he was shot three times. The fact that he suffered injuries would NOT substantiate a possible claim by Cutrufelli that he was acting in self-defense.

    The fact that he was injured is totally irrelevant in regard to the issue of self-defense.

    The fact that George Zimmerman was injured does not substantiate his claim that he was acting in self-defense. It just means he was injured.

    Same thing for an eyewitness account that says the two were fighting, and it looked like Zimmerman was getting the worst of it. That doesn’t substantiate a claim of self-defense…no matter how much y’all wish it did.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  549. Dave, several of your comments and your link in #552 suggest you may be having problems accepting that Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force. You seem to think that the force used by each person must be consistent, so if one person uses his fists then the other is not justified in using a knife or gun. Is that your concern?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  550. “How many times can you hit a man in the head with a brick before he could believe he might be killed?”

    “the answer, my friend, is blowin’ in the wind… the answer is blowin’ in the wind.”

    – Robert Zimmerman

    Colonel Haiku (f4cb77)

  551. Zimmerman’s 911 call history:

    http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/911CallHistory.pdf

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  552. Page from Sanford, Fklorida government containing much information, including audiopo of all 911 calls concernning this incident.

    The call from Geoirge Zimmerman is completely unredacted and includes his cell phone number, but the calls from the other callers have white noise replacing their names, addresses and telephone numbers.

    http://sanfordfl.gov/investigation/trayvon_martin.html

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  553. lol Colonel

    Noodles (3681c4)

  554. Comment by milowent — 3/27/2012 @ 5:21 am

    @Sammy: Has anyone created a minute by minute timelines of what the evidence shows? if not, you have a job to do!

    Not that I know of. I saw a timeline of dates (Feb 26 to March 26) in Tuesday in the New York Daily News but not of the events of that night.

    Obviously somebody knows the times of these 911 phone calls, but I don’t know if it has been published anywhere.

    Everybody seems to be making the assumption that between Trayvon and the girl took place right before the final clash, but I don’t think so. She ayas she told him to run, George Ziummerman independently said he did run.

    George Zimmerman’s 911 call was around 7 PM. Trayvon was being given futile CPR at about 7:30 PM.

    As in the O.J. Simpson case, a change of 10 or 15 minutes in the time of events makes a great deal of difference.

    There was a policeman on the scene within one minute of the gunshot.

    Zimmerman had agreed with the police that they would call him when they got close. Probably what happened was he didn’t know the street so he got out to look at the street sign and then…something happened.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  555. “You know he punched because the guy who shot him said he punched, or was it the anonymous witness?”

    Apparently only one guy actually saw part of the struggle, and he’s saying that he saw Martin punching on Zimmerman, and Zimmerman was hollering for help.

    So, I think we have to accept that, until it can be proven otherwise. and, that takes precedence over what some woman thought she heard (at least I believe it does).

    Personally, I don’t think that information is especially relevant, but according to the police, as reported by various media outlets, that is what the witness says.

    Comment by Dave Surls — 3/26/2012 @ 9:24 pm

    It’s not relevant that Trayvon stood his ground and probably started the scuffle? How do you know it was a “fight” at all and not just a beat down.

    NM-just give me that link again to the Dave approved self defense case.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  556. Most everything they tell us is at best an omission, at worst a lie;

    http://www.breitbart.com/%20Big-Journalism/2012/03/28/MSNBC-ZImmerman-Ellipses

    narciso (83bb81)

  557. Representative Bobby Rush stripped off his suit jacket during a session of congress today to reveal a zipped hoodie which he then pulled up to cover his head and face. Following some gavel action by the acting speaker Mr. Rush was escorted out of the hall for failure to abide by House rules.

    The country is in the very best of hands.

    elissa (189bdf)

  558. Well he does represent the district, that Obama ran for, and lost, oh and btw he is a former Black Panther.

    narciso (83bb81)

  559. Breaking news-there’s video of Zimmerman arriving at the police station. Back of his head (closely shaven) is clearly shown, no blood, no bandage, no apparent injury. Let’s get close-ups kids. Yep, MSNBC. Meantime, on Fox-Bill O-Reilly crowing that “your humble correspondent” gets the most-trusted news sourcesomethingorother. You can’t make this up.

    tifosa (39a2ee)

  560. Ed Show again Tifosa? You sure you don’t who that is?

    Noodles (3681c4)

  561. Tiffyosa is advocating for lynch mobs against Hispanic Dems and riots at Walgreens.

    JD (e5c06b)

  562. hey noodles, you got me interested in giving it a try, what can i say?

    tifosa (39a2ee)

  563. Fox News beat its nearest competitor nearly two to one, tifosa… as the “most trusted source of news”. O’Reilly beat Diane Sawyer, brian Williams and Anderson Cooper. He tied the wannabe-comedian/Democrat strategist Jon Stewart among Democrats.

    Too amusing, tifosa…no?

    Colonel Haiku (bdefe6)

  564. yes, it’s too amusing that Bill is crowing about that while police vid is being released of Zim arriving at the station with clear view of his jacket and the apparently-unwounded back of his head

    tifosa (39a2ee)

  565. Jorge Zimmerman
    walk mile in his moccasins
    before you cast brick

    Colonel Haiku (bdefe6)

  566. “As you have noted, Z called the various police #s many times”

    Yeah, he’s constantly calling on the 911 emergency line to report “emergenices” like an open garage door, or a kid walking down the street, which just so happens to be a crime under Florida law.

    “(13) MISUSE OF 911 OR E911 SYSTEM; PENALTY.—911 and E911 service must be used solely for emergency communications by the public. Any person who accesses the number 911 for the purpose of making a false alarm or complaint or reporting false information that could result in the emergency response of any public safety agency; any person who knowingly uses or attempts to use such service for a purpose other than obtaining public safety assistance; or any person who knowingly uses or attempts to use such service in an effort to avoid any charge for service, commits a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083. After being convicted of unauthorized use of such service four times, a person who continues to engage in such unauthorized use commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. In addition, if the value of the service or the service charge obtained in a manner prohibited by this subsection exceeds $100, the person committing the offense commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.”

    The reason they have that law is to keep idiots, like Zimmerman, from tying up emergency lines in order to carry out their little personal vendettas against black kids wearing hooded jackets (or sweatshirts, or whatever he was wearing). Apparently, Zimmerman and the local authorities didn’t think that law applied to Zimmerman, since it appears he kept breaking that law, and it appears that they kept letting him break it.

    You’re not supposed to use the 911 system, unless there’s some kind of an emergency…but, Zimmerman did it constantly.

    Too bad nobody reined him in before, on the night he shot Tratvon Martin, he first used the 911 system to “report” something that not only wasn’t an emergency, but wasn’t even a crime, and then shot and killed the person he was “reporting” on.

    The guy is a freaking loon (yes that’s an opinion on my part, not a fact), and apparently a consistent lawbreaker, with a past history of violence (according to the police and his old girl friend anyway). And, it sure looks like the train of events that led to Zimmerman killing Martin began with an unlawful act, not on the part of Martin, but rather on the part of Zimmerman.

    What the Keystone Kops in Sanford should have done was to tell Zimmerman to get the hell off the 911 line, and to not bother Martin, and then send someone out just to have a little look see. and then they should have cited Zimmerman for Misuse of the 911 system.

    But, they didn’t do their job, and now Trayvon Martin is dead.

    IMO, of course.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  567. if wounds aren’t on his head,
    the kid should not be dead.

    tifosa (39a2ee)

  568. There may be some bumps on his head… hard to tell… is the patrolman exiting the driver’s side of the car wearing latex gloves?

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475

    Colonel Haiku (bdefe6)

  569. Dave Surls writes: “The fact that he was injured is totally irrelevant in regard the issue of self-defense.

    Its hard to imagine a more stupid misrepresentation, but I’m sure that Dave will rise to the occasion with another.

    The fact that Zimmerman was injured is relevant. Because its evidence that makes it more probable that his story is true. He claimed to be attacked. He was injured. Consistent. Facts that make a defense more likely to be true are relevant facts. That he was injured does not in and of itself “prove” his self-defense claim – and no one is arguing that it does.

    Dave Surls is making up stuff.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  570. hey noodles, you got me interested in giving it a try, what can i say?

    Comment by tifosa — 3/28/2012 @ 5:19 pm

    Somehow I don’t think that statement is true. =)

    Noodles (3681c4)

  571. OBAMA CAMPAIGN: Republicans ‘politicizing’ Trayvon Martin death…

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/03/28/obama_campaign_republicans_are_politicizing_trayvon_martins_death.html

    Colonel Haiku (bdefe6)

  572. Comment by tifosa — 3/26/2012 @ 9:17 pm

    Dude, don’t quote thinkprogress as though there was any chance of honesty or reliability there. It might happen, but only by accident, in a busted clock kinda way.

    IGotBupkis, Three Time Winner of the Silver Sow Award (8e2a3d)

  573. MSNBCLSD quotes Zimmerman like this:

    “This guy looks like he’s up to no good … he looks black,” Zimmerman told a police dispatcher…

    Full quote is actually:

    ZIMMERMAN: This guy looks like he’s up to no good, [begin ellipsis] or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.

    911 DISPATCHER: Okay, is this guy, is he white, black, or Hispanic? [end ellipsis]

    ZIMMERMAN: He looks black.

    http://ace.mu.nu/archives/327914.php

    Colonel Haiku (bdefe6)

  574. OBAMA CAMPAIGN: Republicans ‘politicizing’ Trayvon Martin death…

    Breath-taking asshattery

    JD (e5c06b)

  575. I saw that video tifosa, however it doesn’t prove anything. You don’t need blood to scramble your brain.

    Have you ever hit your head really hard, like fall on ice? You don’t always get scraps or blood. Also, we cannot see his head close up.

    His nose, if broken, would look 100x worse in the days following the breaking.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  576. There are some major problems here.

    First, apparently a large number of people believe a person can kill a black teenager and get away with it in America simply because he was a black teenager. If people really believe that, I don’t understand how we haven’t had rioting to the point of civil war with entire areas segregated by race. I can’t comprehend living where I thought a child of mine could get shot and killed for no reason and nobody around me would do anything. They would either be standing on my neck or I would do something about it.

    If they don’t believe that a black teenager can be killed just because he’s a black teenager, then everybody should cool their jets and let the investigation proceed.

    One can understand (with sympathy) the family having a hard time with the youth’s death. To understand the behavior of others requires a much more jaundiced view of human behavior.

    Second, are we really going to be left with somebody having to charge Zimmerman with something in an attempt to appease the crowds? A sacrifice to Holder’s DOJ? Let’s hear the comparisons to the decline of the Roman Empire. Bread, circuses, and letting the crowds vote thumbs up or down.

    There once was a time when bumper stickers said “No justice for all, no justice at all.” I haven’t seen those for awhile. When John Street, an African American, was elected mayor of Philadelphia, he said to an audience of primarily other African Americans something to the effect of, “We brothers are in charge now” or some such. There is nothing that fuels bigotry and hate like bigotry and hate. Some folks better start encouraging “their people”, whoever “their people” are, to aspire to live out their best instead of indulging their worst.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  577. “It’s not relevant that Trayvon stood his ground and probably started the scuffle?”

    Given the circumstances, I don’t think that’s relevant, though I could be convinced otherwise if new information comes to light which indicates that the overall situation isn’t what it appears to be at this time.

    That being said, the ONLY evidence there is that Trayvon Martin initiated the actual fighting is the unsupported word of George Zimmerman, which I’m not willing to accept.

    Hypothetical to address the first point (who swung first):

    A bank robber robs a bank, a bank guard initiates a fight by tackling the bank robber, the bank robber shoots the guard. Can the bank robber now claim that he was simply exercising his right to self defense, because the bank guard hit him first?

    I don’t think so.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  578. That is the really irresponsible element, MD, what happens if Zimmerman is found not guilty, when they
    poured gasoline on the situation, wrapped it in semtex, and laced it with Cobalt 60,

    narciso (83bb81)

  579. Good Allah, Surls.

    JD (e5c06b)

  580. Apparently some think the purpose of having a town watch is so one can see something suspicious, leave a voice mail of the precinct’s main phone line, and go home and be glad it’s not happening to you.

    Yes, civilians are not “supposed to take the law into your own hands”, but here in Philly, if there is no gunfire involved, then if an attack victim lives it is only becuase of the mercy or ineptitude of the attacker; the police are typically not going to get there in time to do anything.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  581. Zimmerman’s account seems contradicted by this police video as well, which shows him with no blood or bruises on him:

    http://abcnews.go.com/WN/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897#.T3Ops9XGbcu

    Of course, he could have healing powers like Wolverine from the X-Men comics.

    SamR (2f9ede)

  582. The video shows what looks like a mark on the back of Zimmerman’s head, and one of the officers is seen inspecting his head. But we don’t have to guess about what was there because the police report tells us what the officer saw at the scene:

    While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from his nose and the back of his head.

    The report also says Zimmerman was given aid by the SFD [Sanford Fire Department] after being placed in the police car and before being transported to the police department.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  583. Well JD, it’s (politicizing) rampant. If SCOTUS throws out the mandate it will have nothing to do with the Constitution. It will be purely a politically motivated decision along Conservative-Liberal lines and therefore will be viewed as illegitimate by most Americans. I know this because I just heard it on PBS.

    Curiously, there was no discussion whatsoever of the “along party lines” politically motivated “illegitimacy” of the act when it was originally pushed through congress only by Democrats –even though it was opposed by a majority of Americans.

    elissa (189bdf)

  584. I will concede that Z might have been overzealous, but that does not give Tray the right to stomp him. Tray had a lot of options you seem to dismiss.

    Your analogy does not work Dave because what laws did Z break confronting Tray? A neighborhood watch member (or average citizen) cannot ask someone on the street some questions?

    Noodles (3681c4)

  585. Put it in court.

    tifosa (39a2ee)

  586. Samr, I have seen no video. You should know, however that bruises and swelling become more conspicuous over hours and days. Sometimes even fractures take time to be seen on X-ray.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  587. I take it Mr. Surls is totally ignorant of, dismissive of, or ignoring the reports that the only witnesse/s of the events the police have (which they have) say that Martin was the aggressor in the physical altercation that ended up in his death.

    Most of the time teenagers do really stupid things and live. We know this is true because teenagers typically do at least one or more really stupid things (self included), but most of us live until 20 anyway. Unfortunately some teens do stupid things and don’t have a chance to learn from their mistake. That is really, really sad, but demanding to find someone to blame is not the solution.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  588. what’s with these libs? They think we need to see a link to the video posted numerous times in less than an hour. Truly imbecilic.

    Colonel Haiku (bdefe6)

  589. btw… that was a rhetorical question…

    Colonel Haiku (bdefe6)

  590. Now as they said in Barcelona, the think below the text, on Bobby Rush;

    C]o-founded the Illinois chapter of the Black Panthers in 1968 and was made its “defense minister”. His son, Huey, was named after Panther leader Huey Newton. “We were reacting to police brutality, to the historical relationship between African-Americans and recalcitrant racist whites,” Rush later told People magazine. “We needed to arm ourselves.” Rush was present when fellow Black Panther Fred Hampton was killed in a police raid and later made a official statement that the police, referred only to as “pigs” by Rush, had murdered Hampton. Rush’s own apartment was raided in December 1969 where police discovered an unregistered pistol, rifle, shotgun and pistol ammunition, training manuals on explosives and booby traps, a small amount of marijuana and an assortment of communist literature. [3]

    narciso (83bb81)

  591. They had enough on him that night to arrest him for violating FL Statute 782.11:

    782.11 Unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act.—Whoever shall unnecessarily kill another, either while resisting an attempt by such other person to commit any felony, or to do any other unlawful act, or after such attempt shall have failed, shall be deemed guilty of manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

    tifosa (39a2ee)

  592. I guess no one here watches MMA. Guys can look normal after a fight but the next day their legs are bloated to the size of trees and their eyes are closed shut. (not that that is what happened but injuries do not always show up right away)

    Noodles (3681c4)

  593. Just curious, is this the same tifosa from the blaze?

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  594. Dave , re your bank robbery hypothetical, self defense is nt a defense if you are committing armed robbery.

    You seem hung up on the idea that Z was in the middle of some kind of crime. The following/ calling 911 wasn’t criminal.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  595. tifosa:

    Put it in court.

    But that may not be the law in Florida. A prosecutor may ultimately decide to file charges against Zimmerman, but I hope you aren’t arguing a person should be subjected to charges just to satisfy public curiosity. That isn’t right.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  596. iowahawkblog “Bad news for Spike Lee: FL couple hires lawyer. Worse news for Spike Lee: it’s Reggie Miller” http://t.co/O3Pc4pk1

    Colonel Haiku (bdefe6)

  597. Tifosa is also from Occupyrevolutiontv. Now how did I know that? lol

    Tifosa likes trolling right leaning sites.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  598. Sorry, Tifosa is form Global Revolution TV.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  599. One last comment before I go and calm myself down.

    A fatal brain injury would not need to be accompanied by obvious impressive outside wounds. Blood vessels can be torn and brain tissue bruised by the brain being slammed back and forth inside of the skull. Bleeding or swelling of damaged brain causes more swelling and pressure, causing more damage, causing more swelling, and the brain pushes down into the spinal cord and you stop breathing.

    If what Zimmerman did was not justified self-defense he should be found guilty accordingly. Right now all I see is the claim that the report of a witness coincides with Zimmerman’s story of self defense, and lots of people shouting and screaming.

    Anybody know the status of the reported bounty offered by the New Black Panther Party?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  600. Tifosa is an occupier and really really hates Ron Paul.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  601. tifosa,

    Chapter 782 covers Homicide, and that might be appropriate if Zimmerman had not claimed self-defense. In addition, any potential homicide is also subject to Section 782.02 – Justifiable use of Deadly Force:

    782.02 Justifiable use of deadly force.—The use of deadly force is justifiable when a person is resisting any attempt to murder such person or to commit any felony upon him or her or upon or in any dwelling house in which such person shall be.

    Was Zimmerman “resisting any attempt … to commit any felony upon him …”?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  602. When tifosa and
    Dave making same arguments
    Dave should be worried

    elissa (189bdf)

  603. At least I believe Dave believes in what he is saying. I can respect that.

    Tifosa posts are political trolling. She thinks she will change the election this way. She has other trolling names accounts etc.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  604. “They had enough on him that night to arrest him for violating FL Statute 782.11″

    Comment by tifosa

    tifosa… we’ve got enough on you from just the last two days to have you arrested for violating Federal Statue 18 USC section 301:

    “A person who publicly insults the collective intelligence of any august body, the Republic or, most especially, the fine people who frequent the Pontifications of Patterico blog, and is found guilty of said crime shall be punished by imprisonment of between six months and three years and a fine not to exceed $50,000.00.”

    Colonel Haiku (bdefe6)

  605. make that Statute 18 USC section 301…

    Colonel Haiku (bdefe6)

  606. “Its hard to imagine a more stupid misrepresentation, but I’m sure that Dave will rise to the occasion with another.”

    “The fact that Zimmerman was injured is relevant.”

    It’s hard to imagine how anyone could be as stupid as SPQR and still manage to breathe unassisted.

    It’s perfectly possible that Zimmerman could have been totally UNINJURED and still have the right to self-defense.

    For example, if Zimmerman was in his home, and Martin broke in, Zimmerman could shoot Martin dead, and not suffer a scratch himself, and still (correctly) assert not only the right to self-defense, but the right to use deadly force against Martin just for having broken into his house.

    So, says the law.

    The fact that Zimmerman was injured (or uninjured, if that was the case) is completely irrelevant as far as determining whether or not this is a case of self-defense.

    “That he was injured does not in and of itself “prove” his self-defense claim”

    Even a blind, deaf and dumb pig finds an acorn once in awhile.

    That, of course, is what I’ve been saying all along. It doesn’t prove his self-defense claim…and neither does any of the other evidence revealed so far.

    At least none that I’ve seen.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  607. Tifosa is in Anonymous and an Occupier. She has common friends with who I call Da Creeps.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  608. i got your back Surls
    but you make it difficult
    Yardbird lovin’ bro’

    Colonel Haiku (bdefe6)

  609. Hola Ghostie, i remember you.

    tifosa (39a2ee)

  610. Idk if you are talking to me, but I am not Ghostie (don’t know who that is).

    Do you know who this is?

    https://twitter.com/#!/laughingblades

    Noodles (3681c4)

  611. “I take it Mr. Surls is totally ignorant of, dismissive of, or ignoring the reports that the only witnesse/s of the events the police have (which they have) say that Martin was the aggressor in the physical altercation that ended up in his death.”

    I hate to keep beating on a dead horse…but, no witness, other than Zimmerman, has said that Martin was the aggressor.

    Also, no witness has said that Martin was the aggressor.

    Unfortunately (for Zimmerman) all the circumstantial evidence says Zimmerman was the aggressor.

    Zimmerman went after Martin…not the other way around.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  612. Tifosa, I don’t care what you do.

    I just want people to know that you are a serious political troll. Not that you are serious or scary, just that you are obsessed with it.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  613. Oh yeah, and that you are with anonymous and the cult that is occupy.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  614. I fibbed. One more comment.

    It seems to me that 99+% of those reading here realize that the presence or abscence of injury does not define self-defense.

    But it also seems to me that any injuries that Zimmerman has that are consistent with his story of self-defense are relevant to the degree they corraborate the story, not because he is injured per se. There, I used Latin, I can go now.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  615. I’m not versed in criminal law but one question I have is whether Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force because he reasonably believed force was necessary to prevent “imminent death or great bodily injury” as set forth in Section 776.012. If not, I think he might be subject to a manslaughter charge in Chapter 782, such as the one tifosa mentioned above. This may also go to the practical point Dave has been trying to make, i.e., that Zimmerman used greater force than necessary.

    Ultimately, then, one issue to be decided in determining whether charges will be filed is how Florida law defines “great bodily injury.”

    This 2008 Florida case is not on point but it defines “serious bodily injury” and “great bodily injury” as follows: “… may include, but does not require, serious permanent disfigurement or a protracted loss or impairment of the function of a bodily member or organ.” In addition, “the determination of whether a bodily injury constitutes serious bodily injury is solely a question of fact for the jury.”

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  616. Marco Rubio just endorsed Romney.

    This situation with this dead youth… this is ONE BIG DISTRACTION from the sorry record our president canNOT run on. This president has been a disaster and it may take a generation to udo what he has wrought.

    He and the Democrats have made a calculated decision to divide the nation along racial and class lines and that is the way they will conduct their 2012 campaigns. This is just the beginning.

    Colonel Haiku (bdefe6)

  617. udo undo

    Colonel Haiku (bdefe6)

  618. “Also, no witness has said that Martin was the aggressor.”

    Whoops.

    I meant to say that: also, no witness has said Zimmerman was the aggressor.

    Nobody saw the start of the actual fight (at least not that I’ve heard), not that that would necessarily determine who had a right to self-defense.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  619. Quoting myself (heh):

    This may also go to the practical point Dave has been trying to make, i.e., that Zimmerman used greater force than necessary.

    Dave, you never said this but I think it’s something you’re concerned about. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  620. I hate to keep beating on a dead horse…but, no witness, other than Zimmerman, has said that Martin was the aggressor.
    Comment by Dave Surls — 3/28/2012 @ 6:32 pm

    Pardon me, I thought the whole point of this thread was that there was at least one witness, and that witness’ account was consistent with what Zimmerman said. So, are you saying that patterico’s original post in this thread is fiction?

    This should be very simple. We know that at one point Zimmerman was following, at some distance, a person he claimed was acting suspicious, and that he was told by the 911 operator to stop following him. (I did not know 911 operators held all authority in the universe short of God Himself, but apparently they do in regard to legal justification of one’s actions).

    Then we know that eventually in the incident Martin was shot and killed by Zimmerman.

    One presumptive narrative is that at some point Zimmerman apparently decided to shoot the suspicious acting teen for no good reason, instead of following the advice of the 911 operator.
    The alternative narrative is that Zimmerman followed the advice of the 911 operator and was leaving the scene when Martin engaged Zimmerman and assaulted him, knocking Z to the ground, and then proceeded to physically assault Z while he was on his back. Either by design or in a scuffle Z’s gun went off at point-blank range and killed martin.

    There is a report, which was the beginning of this entire discussion, that the only person so far identified to have witnessed the actual time of shooting, gives an account consistent with that of Z.

    So, does this witness exist as stated in the report quoted by P, or is this person a fantasy, as apparently claimed by Mr. Surls.

    Dead horses or not, this is a pretty simple question that should be able to be answered in less than 600 comments.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  621. DRJ-
    As you know, I am not a lawyer at all, but if I am on my back with someone banging my head on the ground after hitting me and knocking me to the ground, and I have a gun in my possession, I am not going to ask just how many times the assailant intends to bang my head before I shoot him. If the person banging my head is a 10 year old child or an 85 yo frail elderly lady, neither of whom do I believe have the ability to do me any serious harm, then shooting would be unjustified. But if the situation is as described, one does not know if you will still be conscious to defend yourself in another 2 seconds. If a person knows one of several techniques you can put someone out with one blow.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  622. ==Dave, you never said this but I think it’s something you’re concerned about. Please correct me if I’m wrong==

    Leading the witness, DRJ :)

    elissa (189bdf)

  623. MD,

    A minor point about the 911 instructions to Zimmerman, from a statement by Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee:

    “The evidence and testimony we have so far does not establish that Mr. Zimmerman did not act in self-defense. We don’t have anything to dispute his claim of self-defense, at this point, with the evidence and testimony that we have,” said Lee, the police chief.

    Lee said the 911 directions asking Zimmerman not to confront the teenager are not mandatory instructions.

    “That is a call taker making a recommendation to him. He’s not under a legal obligation to do that, so that is not something we can charge him with,” he said. “But it would have been a good outcome … if Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman never came in contact with one another.”

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  624. elissa,

    True, but that’s allowed if he’s a hostile witness. Hopefully he’s not.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  625. Thanks, DRJ.

    If the identity of the person who corroborates Z’s version of the story becomes known, are they eligible for a witness protection program??

    Semi-snark, but obvious truth to it.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  626. I agree, MD, it would scare me to death to have someone pound my head on the ground or concrete. But the standard is a reasonable belief and thus different juries can come up with different answers to that question.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  627. Florida has an oddball law which may play a role as the facts of the Trayvon Martin case become clearer. Florida Code 843.20 is a criminal provision titled “Harassment of participant of neighborhood crime watch program.” It makes it a misdemeanor to threaten or intimidate a member of a neighborhood crime watch program “while such member is engaged in. . . an organized neighborhood crime watch program activity.” The law says that a neighborhood patrol includes a “crime watch program activity.” Of course, Zimmerman was on his neighborhood crime watch patrol when the tragic incident occurred.

    JD (318f81)

  628. The witness is known to the police, MD. He’s known to us only as John, and I suspect he would be eligible for increased police surveillance or protection if he wants it. Zimmerman, too, although he hasn’t asked for it.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  629. “This may also go to the practical point Dave has been trying to make, i.e., that Zimmerman used greater force than necessary.”

    Actually, I haven’t really talked about that yet, but, since you bring it up, I haven’t seen anything to make me think that Martin had any intention to inflict great bodily harm on, or kill Zimmerman. Nor do I see any evidence that Zimmerman was in any great danger. He was just getting his ass kicked in a fistfight that it looks like he provoked.

    He certainly didn’t recieve any life threatening injuries. The injuries were so minor, that the cops wouldn’t even take him to the hospital (though he was apparently whining a bit)…or so I’ve read.

    Based on what I’ve seen, Zimmerman wasn’t in a self-defense situation, and the use of deadly force wasn’t warranted, even if he was.

    Of course, you never know for sure, Martin could have been planning on beating Zimmerman to death…with his bag of skittles.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  630. I haven’t seen anything to make me think that Martin had any intention to inflict great bodily harm

    The next time someone is having their head bashed against a concrete sidewalk, they should stop and ask if their assailant plans on inflicting great bodily upon them.

    JD (318f81)

  631. Hola Ghostie, i remember you.

    Comment by tifosa — 3/28/2012 @ 6:26 pm

    No you don’t. I’ve never commented there. Their login process sucks. But I see you trolling the comments there, and you’re even more ridiculous there.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  632. Nice Dave. DRJ reaches out to hand you a lifeline– and you slap it down with sarcasm. Bet she doesn’t do that again.

    elissa (189bdf)

  633. Of course, you never know for sure, Martin could have been planning on beating Zimmerman to death…with his bag of skittles.

    I just figured it out. Surls is auditioning for a job at MSNBC or thinkregress.

    JD (318f81)

  634. Dave,

    According to this ABC report, Zimmerman requested medical attention but the police questioned him first. Apparently Zimmerman did not assert his Miranda rights to avoid questioning, nor did he ask for an attorney. Is that what you call Zimmerman whining?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  635. elissa,

    I’m not upset with Dave. I want to understand his position so we can talk about it.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  636. More bad news…for Zimmerman (if the report is true).

    “Trayvon Martin case: Shooter George Zimmerman appears uninjured in police video on night of shooting”

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trayvon-martin-case-shooter-george-zimmerman-appears-uninjured-police-video-night-shooting-article-1.1052433

    I can’t even tell if it’s him from the video, but whoever it is, it doesn’t look like this person had been beaten to within an inch of their life, or even hurt at all.

    This does not bode well for Zimmerman, if ABC has it right.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  637. Dave:

    I haven’t seen anything to make me think that Martin had any intention to inflict great bodily harm on, or kill Zimmerman. Nor do I see any evidence that Zimmerman was in any great danger.

    I don’t think Martin’s intent determines whether Zimmerman was in fear of “great bodily harm.” Florida law appears to be based on an objective standard: Would a reasonable person believe the acts could cause “great bodily harm”? Assuming Zimmerman’s story is true, most people would think getting hit and knocked down, followed by having your head pounded on the ground, could cause great bodily harm.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  638. Dave:

    This does not bode well for Zimmerman, if ABC has it right

    Please note my comment 590, Dave.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  639. “I’m not upset with Dave”

    And, vice versa.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  640. Oh, tifosa meant you Ghost. I tried a quick search to find her mention something and she must be a full sixth of all the posts here.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  641. Dave,

    Adding to my comment at 645, I realize you don’t view that as a terrible threat but you may be an outlier. Having said that, I’d probably be lucky to have you with me if I ever have to go into a dangerous situation.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  642. I agree with elissa, I cannot take Dave seriously after this last round of exchanges.

    No one can rationalize a physical assault because they were provoked with words. That was supposed to be learned in kindergarten, not before.

    I don’t need a bag of skittles to beat someone to death. A proper postioning of my first finger reinforced by my thumb and a strike a short distance in front of the ear will incapacitate a person, then I could bang the person’s head against the ground at leisure.

    You are arguing that M had cause to physically attack Z because he was annoyed that he was being watched, but that Z had no reason to be in fear of his life with someone sitting on him banging his head?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  643. “Is that what you call Zimmerman whining?”

    Yes, I do think that…if what I read is true.

    He just shot a kid, and killed him, and he wants to get his poor widdle nose treated, when there’s some more important matters that need to be attended. to.

    A tough guy would say: I’m all right, it’s just a scratch.

    But, not Dirty Harry II.

    If that little tale is true, I think he’s kind of a whiner, among other things.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  644. DRJ, I know you meant it as a positive statement, but I think you would do better in a dangerous situation with someone other than Dave.

    Being in a “neighborly bar room brawl” must be different than a serious physical confrontation. Daughter’s sensei, 8th degree black belt who went several years without a loss in world karate competition, said to never take the risk of a fight lightly, avoidance is always best, even a bum can get in a lucky punch on occasion and you could end up dead.

    There is a difference, I guess, between being in a fight with friends around and being in a confrontation on the street when you do not know if your opponent wants to kill you. As I said above, I can’t take what Dave says with any seriousness any more. Good night.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  645. “If that little tale is true, I think he’s kind of a whiner, among other things.”

    Dave – What statute do you prosecute people under for whining? Irrelevant.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  646. “A tough guy would say: I’m all right, it’s just a scratch.”

    Dave – Essentially what happened. They cleaned him up and took him to the police station.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  647. This thread has gone on too long.

    My last word, here: Don’t you be glad that a man’s dead and wish the same for another.

    nk (dec503)

  648. Surls — what circumstantial “evidence” says Zimmerman was the “aggressor”?

    Those words are in quotes for a reason in case you were wondering.

    shipwreckedcrew (e57b7e)

  649. 626 — here is your problem Dave.

    The prosecution has the burden of proof.

    If your theory is that Zimmerman was the aggressor, and thereby lost the privilege to respond to Martin’s conduct — if any, or whatever it might have been — with deadly force, then you have to lay an EVIDENTIARY foundation to establish that Zimmerman was the aggressor.

    If you think simply disregarding Zimmerman’s claim because of his bias (reasonable), that only solves half the problem. The other half of the problem is now establishing with EVIDENCE that Zimmerman WAS the aggressor.

    shipwreckedcrew (e57b7e)

  650. __________________________________________

    At least I believe Dave believes in what he is saying. I can respect that.

    Tifosa posts are political trolling

    I don’t think the latter is trolling. I think she (or he?) just happens to be intrinsically, inherently and genetically a leftwinger. So you ain’t gonna get a lot of common sense or logic out of someone like that.

    As for Surls — who possibly defines himself as a centrist or chameleon? — he presumably is a bit better than all those typical liberals. I’m guessing he at least doesn’t fall for the BS notion that he’s more humane and compassionate than the average person, and certainly more than a typical conservative.

    BTW, I know a true-blue, dyed-in-the-wool liberal at my workplace. We were discussing the case of the shooting down in Florida, and the guy naturally gave a million benefits of the doubt to characters like Trayvon Martin, a shrug and cold shoulder to “wild vigilantes” (the phrase he used) like Zimmerman. I tried to bite my tongue, if only out of disgust.

    The kicker is this unrepentant liberal resists like the devil having to drive to or near south-central LA, towards areas around USC. I recall his putting up a big fuss on two occasions when work-related matters required his visiting that part of town. Of course such a liberal would never, ever consider living in an area where lots of potential situations exist that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton could happily, quickly exploit.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  651. “but I think you would do better in a dangerous situation with someone other than Dave.”

    Yeah, I agree. Who wants to have a tired old man (who hates violence and killing) around when the bullets start flying?

    I’d rather have a young Navy SEAL at my back.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  652. It’s not being “tired and old” that would be the disqualifier, it would be someone unwilling and unable to defend himself and others.
    I know several “tired and old” men who I would absolutely trust just because they don’t fly off the handle, but when they do react, they react with precision and finality.

    AD-RtR/OS! (f02a7e)

  653. ‘It’s not being “tired and old” that would be the disqualifier’

    It is in my case. I’d rather have someone backing me up, that had steadier hands, better eyesight, and a gung ho attitude.

    If you need to go into a dangerous situation, I’d shop around for someone other than myself, to take with you.

    Now, if you want trouble altogether…I’m your boy.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  654. …want TO AVOID trouble altogether, I meant.

    Where’s my dratted editor?

    He’s never around when I need him.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  655. Several time in the last 660 posts there have been references to the dispatcher telling Zimmerman not to follow Martin. That is not what was said.

    Dispatcher: Are you following him?

    Zimmerman: Yeah

    Dispatcher: Ok, we don’t need you to do that.

    This definitely not the same as if the dispatcher said “Do not follow him” or “Stop it”. This is left open to interpretation and would be considered ambiguous directions at best.

    Also, people have died from a single sharp blow from a fist to the head. Even wearing protective head gear does not guarantee your safety. So, if someone has you held down and is pounding your head and you are not in fear for your life, then you have probably already suffered serious head injuries. 😎

    There have been several litmus tests thrown out there to tell us when a person has somehow or another abdicated their right to use force to defend themselves. The only one I have found a statute for is if they do so while in the commission of a felony. Can anyone else tell me any other legal restrictions on when a person may use deadly force to defend themselves when they are in fear for their lives?

    Jay H Curtis (804124)

  656. “That is not what was said.”

    Spare me the semantics.

    If I tell you I don’t need you to do that, that means don’t fucking do that.

    The dispatcher, or LEO, or whoever was on the horn, could have been more emphatic, but more importantly, they should have told him right from the get-go to not bother the kid, and to quit making illegal calls on the 911 line to report non crimes, and make totally unsubstantiated claims against people.

    But, just because they dropped the ball, that doesn’t mean he gets to start stalking the kid. He’s still responsible for what he did.

    [Found in filter.]

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  657. “The prosecution has the burden of proof.”

    If I’m the jury…this guy is toast.

    Of course, I’m not likely to be the jury, or even sit on the jury (since I’ve read about the case, and have formed opinions about it…and anyhow I don’t live in Florida).

    For that matter, there might not even be a trial.

    I’m just saying.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  658. I said on 3/28/2012 @ 10:01 am PDT:

    SF: The idea of Trayvon Martin beating his brains out is from the initial police report, which is mostly a fabrication, with only a loose connection to the facts.(my analysis)

    This is a serious blunder. That doesn’t come from the initial police report, but from that police report of which some of its contents were leaked to the Orlando Sentinel, which this post begins with, which I thought must have been the initial report.

    But the true initial reports were from the first responders, and there’s nothing wrong with them.

    The police confirmed that the source for the Orlando Sentinel was a genuine report, but they didn’t confirm it was consistent with the facts. And if it wasn’t, they wouldn’t say so. Elsewhere they said various media re-enactments were wrong, but they didn’t say what was wrong. I made the mistake of assuming that was the earliest report, which was wrong.

    Comment by shipwreckedcrew — 3/28/2012 @ 10:16 am

    Sammy — how is the initial police report a fabrication?

    Not that one. I’m sorry. The one that this post begins with, which is not the earliest one.

    How is the one referenced by the Orlando Sentinel a fabrication? It quotes Zimmerman as saying something he almost certainly never said.

    It says Zimmerman told police Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk

    But Trayvon did not slam George Zimmerman’s head into the sidewalk. Trayvon slammed George Zimmerman’s head into the ground.

    On grass, not concrete. Where the injuries would be a lot less.

    Now that’s explained by the idea that the policeman who wrote that up had not been on the scene. George Zimmerman was undoubtibly accosted on the sidewalk, but he ran on to the grass between 1231 Twin Trees Lane and 2821 Retreat View Circle. That’s where his head was banged, not on the sidewalk.

    And this place in turn was more a quarter of a mile away from George Zimmerman’s location at the time he made the call to police (not a 911 call by the way) at about 7:15 PM, when he gave his location I think, as 1111 Retreat View Circle.

    I’ve tried to keep up with your fantabulism, but with 500+ posts its a little difficult.

    The police report published today is pretty standard for a first responder who must secure the scene. Nothing in there is inconsistent with the statement that Zimmerman is reported to have given.

    Yes it is. (Except I think maybe this must have been published before, if we are talking about the the same partial reports) There was grass on the back of Zimmerman’s head. The sightings were on grass. And once that’s wrong the rest can’t be relied upon either.

    You don’t even need this. Look at comment number post 17:

    “The guy on the bottom, who I believe had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help, help.’ I told him to stop, I was calling 911,” John told the TV station. Zimmerman was wearing red.

    “When I got upstairs and looked down, the person that was on top beating up the other guy was laying in the grass. And I believe he was dead at that point,” the eyewitness claimed.

    You have 6 witnesses to one part of the incident or another. Some of their statements have been publicized, others have not.

    I counted 5 witnesses in the partial police report.

    Nothing yet CONTRADICTS Zimmerman’s account.

    The point is, what is in the Orlando Sentinel, cannot possibly be an accurate accounting of Zimmerman’s account given after he was taken to the police station.

    Sammy Finkelman (5736b6)

  659. no evidence of injury on Trayvon’s hands~funeral director.

    tifosa (ad1ec7)

  660. Put them all under oath, including Trayvon’s girlfriend who was allegedly on the phone when Zimmerman approached Trayvon and heard the beginning of the interaction, enter forensics, including pictures of the injuries.

    tifosa (ad1ec7)

  661. Here’s some good news for Zimmerman.

    I’ve been reviewing all the laws pertaining to use of force, and found a statute I hadn’t seen before.

    “76.012 Use of force in defense of person.–A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against such other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.”

    “776.041 Use of force by aggressor.–The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:”

    “(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or”

    “(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:”

    “(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or”

    “(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.”

    I hadn’t seen 776.041 before. Maybe that’s why they’re so reluctant to charge the guy.

    Sounds like even if he started a fight with Martin, he can still blow him away if he reasonably believes Martin is about to kill him or maim him, as long as Zimmerman wasn’t engaged in some sort of felony.

    I still think he’s guilty, but that law makes it a little bit tougher to get a conviction.

    They might want to think about tweaking that law just a tad.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  662. Audio forensics/voice recognition. If it was Trayvon screaming for help, Zimmerman’s defense dissolves.

    tifosa (ad1ec7)

  663. “If it was Trayvon screaming for help, Zimmerman’s defense dissolves.”

    I don’t think so.

    Doesn’t really make any difference who was calling for help.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  664. Let’s put it to a jury Dave.

    tifosa (ad1ec7)

  665. That was my favorite, a mega-close-up that required AN ARROW to point to the shadow.

    tifosa (ad1ec7)

  666. “Let’s put it to a jury Dave.”

    That’s what I’d try to do.

    The defense will try to have it dismissed, ask for immunity, the court will decide whether or not there’s any merit to a self defense claim, and off they go.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  667. “Let’s put it to a jury Dave.”

    That’s what I’d try to do.

    Neither of you have ever been able to explain how your distorted perverse misguided desires square with the purpose of our legal system.

    JD (6a2c58)

  668. This definitely not the same as if the dispatcher said “Do not follow him” or “Stop it”. This is left open to interpretation and would be considered ambiguous directions at best.

    It was not a police dept dispatcher. It was a 3rd party employee is the nine one one call center. Their orders and suggestions carry the weight of air.

    JD (6a2c58)

  669. “Large gash on back of Zimmerman’s head?”

    Gimme a break, Colonel. The guy is obviously not seriously hurt.

    It’s going to be hard to convict the guy, though, given what that one statute says. He could walk up to Martin, slap him in the face, start a fight, get his ass kicked, shoot Martin and STILL claim self defense on the basis that he feared he was in imminent danger of being killed or maimed up, as long as he wasn’t engaging in a felonious act.

    It all depends on whether a judge or jury will buy that claim.

    Looks like who the aggressor was basically means nada (at least according to that one law).

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  670. The point of the exercise, is not justice, it’s vengeance, it’s poisoning the jury pool, it’s eliminating any discretion on the part of the prosecutor,

    narciso (83bb81)

  671. “Neither of you have ever been able to explain how your distorted perverse misguided desires square with the purpose of our legal system.”

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men”

    That’s the purpose of our legal system, as far as I’m concerned. Doesn’t seem too perverse to me.

    And, anyway we agreed on that, whether it’s perverse or not.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  672. Wrong. You are advocating using the legal system as a cudgel to bludgeon someone to satisfy your bloodlust over a tragic incident.

    JD (6a2c58)

  673. A legal system dictated by what mob screams the loudest.

    Tifosa just wants a race war between Hispanic Dems and blacks.

    JD (6a2c58)

  674. Was Z treated b the paramedics before or after the video that tiffyosa is masturbqting to?

    JD (6a2c58)

  675. Before, JD, Minitrue hasn’t been this busy, since March ’91

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/29/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

    narciso (83bb81)

  676. http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/03/sourcing-narrative-facts-in-the-martin-case/

    Seems like the PR/law firm is the “source” for the Skittles.

    As for the hoodie and he appears black nonsense, the people pushing that nonsense obviously did not listen to the tapes available. People are self-identifying.

    JD (6a2c58)

  677. #680 You have proof (maybe a comment?) indicating what I think the outcome of a trial would/should be?

    tifosa (ad1ec7)

  678. JD, it’s difficult to take you seriously when you hurl baseless drivel. just sayin’

    tifosa (ad1ec7)

  679. You do know that the hoodie controversy comes from a statement Geraldo made, right?

    tifosa (ad1ec7)

  680. Yes. All well intentioned people should turn to Geraldo for guidance. Tiffyosa claiming someone should not be taken seriously is rich.

    JD (e5c06b)

  681. We have proof that you do not understand our criminal justice system. That you do not understand the basis of the system, what is required to charge and then take somebody to trial, is beyond question. So your predictions as to a possible outcome are irrelevant, at best.

    JD (e5c06b)

  682. This puts a different spin on the matter;

    He said his son had just made dinner for his wife and was heading to Target the night of the NBA All Starts game when he spotted Trayvon, who he didn’t recognize as a resident. He thought Trayvon looked suspicious, because there had been a rash of break-ins, and instead of walking on a main sidewalk, Trayvon was walking in a paved path that goes behind two sets of townhouses.

    George Zimmerman called police, and started “walking in the same general direction to see where the individual was going,” and get an address for police.

    Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/29/2720704/george-zimmermans-dad-trayvon.html#moreb#storylink=cpy

    narciso (83bb81)

  683. Aw, are we taking verbal cudgels to your friend, Georgie.

    That’s so sad.

    And, all the guy did was shoot a 17 year old kid.

    I feel so guilty.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  684. He made the call and was told that the police were on their way, that they don’t need him to follow. (So, Zim, wait in the car for them.) In fact, the dispatcher was working with him to arrange a place to meet the police and he said to call his cell. Neighborhood Watch is a call&report program, nothing about arms, in fact part of the credo is against confrontation. Go. To. Trial.

    tifosa (ad1ec7)

  685. However Z went to see which way he went. That might not be prudent, but that’s not a crime or improper behavior.

    The kid wasn’t even on the sidewalk when spotted – though it was wet – he was between houses.

    ***********************

    “Because there has been a lot of break-ins in the area, Robert said George thought it suspicious that someone would not be walking on the street or the sidewalk on a rainy night — that Martin would be walking between the town homes. He said after making those observations, his son decided to call the police. “He called the non-emergency number first”

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  686. divide and conquer
    the 0bama strategy
    can’t run on record

    Colonel Haiku (59d8ef)

  687. wait a minute

    Colonel Haiku (59d8ef)

  688. holding…

    Colonel Haiku (59d8ef)

  689. ‘The City of Sanford is warning members of the press not to approach city employees outside of work.’

    ‘The police department released a memo on Wednesday — as details of the controversy surrounding Trayvon Martin’s killing continue to unfold — requesting “that members of the media refrain from approaching, phoning or emailing city employees when they are in their roles as private citizens.”’

    ‘The statement, obtained by The Huffington Post, referred to “a few incidents” where civil servants were followed and approached after working hours. It also notes that the police department “will not hesitate to make an arrest for stalking.”‘–via HuffPo

    Stalking black kids and shooting them, o.k.

    Stalking government employees to interview them, a criminal offense.

    I think my irony-o-meter just exploded.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  690. now it can be told
    if it wasn’t the Martin kid
    they’d find someone else

    Colonel Haiku (59d8ef)

  691. Boom! there it is

    Colonel Haiku (59d8ef)

  692. What did Obama say ‘get in their faces’ and ‘I’m the only thing standing between you and the pitchforks’ how do you think he got CitiCorp to relent, in the one case he did win,

    narciso (83bb81)

  693. Tifosa – I have some value for rule of law . I take issue with the hypocritical “rush to judgment of Z.

    A mean old nosy parker White guy shoots a barely teenaged boy, a well-behaved, good student and citizen, sitting on his own father’s porch – just because being black and stranger made his suspicous to some racist. LORD I HATE THAT MEAN GUY TOO.

    Only the media exaggerated. The media only does that when it has something to sell and the truth isn’t good enough. My uproar comes from the dishonesty in service of narrative.

    The shooting was picked up by the MSM. presumably as a way to attack “Stand your Ground” before they had done much vetting of the parent’s complaint, and the perfect combo of innocent black kid and rickety old racist Jew.

    The truth will out in the fullness of time. At least the truth can get its pants on a little faster than before.

    The kid wasn’t little and mild. He wasn’t on the porch. He wasn’t on the sidewalk. He was in a neighborhood where recent break ins by people fitting his description had the neighborhood on edge, and walking where somebody going someplace would generally not given the weather, peering into homes.

    We find out the kid was not that little smiling boy, but a more imposing 160 pound athlete, with some issues at school and some evidence that petty thievery was part of his lifestyle, along with minor trappings of thug life, however wannabee that was…….weed, tough-guy tats, gold teeth and ridiculous and kind of creepy self descriptin an a “no limit” Nword.

    The exaggeration made me wonder what else they were hiding and what purpose that false image was to serve.

    BTW ‘m still wondering whether any of the jewelry taken from his backpack and impounded will turn out to be from neighbors in his father’s vicinity. If it does, I say continual questioning of whether he looked suspicious to a reasonable person in the situation will no longer be effective, and any doubt must fall in Z’s favor.

    If Z was wrong about M being up to no good in his neighborhood – at that time at least – that doesn’t make him unreasonable. If Martin attacked him because he was angry at being eyed or followed – Martin is the aggressor, and the only question remains what level of force Z had a right to use to end the attack.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  694. “This puts a different spin on the matter;”

    Yeah, well, it’s always easier to spin when the other side ain’t alive to spin back.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  695. SNAP Dave!

    tifosa (f2199c)

  696. ______________________________________________

    Let’s put it to a jury Dave.

    The big irony is that if the jury were similar to the one at the OJ trial (“if the glove don’t fit, you must acquit”) — meaning a bunch of people of leftist orientation — they’d want to snag Zimmerman based on the flimsiest of evidence.

    So in such people’s mind, DNA evidence and other powerful clues don’t seem all that convincing or reliable, while a George Zimmerman is undoubtedly a hired assassin (perhaps employed by the Mafia?) thirsty for blood, and Trayvon Martin (who perhaps was picking up litter and sweeping the street at the time of his death?) was an altar boy headed off to church and, then later, a Boy Scouts meeting.

    Liberals: ass backwards, time and time again.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  697. Or IS alive to mess up people’s spinning for YOU. Bad enough for that spin when your real appearance and utterances come back to life…

    if T. had survived the gunshot I’m thinking it would be a lot harder for him to be portrayed as a little candy-buying child.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  698. Comment by tifosa — 3/29/2012 @ 8:10 am

    A 1931 incident defines the “right wing uproar”, tifosa? You are really despicable.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  699. Isn’t it fascinating that a Hispanic Dem shooting a black teenager has tiffyosa positively unglued?

    JD (318f81)

  700. “right wing uproar”, tifosa

    SPQR – this one was weapons grade asshattery, much like that Barcky campaign blaming conservatives for politicizing this.

    JD (318f81)

  701. Dave Surls once again makes up stuff:

    Also, no witness has said that Martin was the aggressor.

    Unfortunately (for Zimmerman) all the circumstantial evidence says Zimmerman was the aggressor.

    Zimmerman went after Martin…not the other way around.

    Comment by Dave Surls — 3/28/2012 @ 6:32 pm

    There is no evidence that Martin was the “aggressor” according to Surls … except that is false, as Zimmerman’s statement is “evidence”. “All” circumstantial evidence says that Zimmerman is the aggressor, except that it does not since there is no evidence, circumstantial or otherwise of Zimmerman beginning the fight. Because following Martin does not make Zimmerman an “aggressor”.

    So once again, we see that Dave Surls continues to make up stuff, invert reality, redefine “evidence” and “aggressor” – all to maintain his belief system.

    And call names to those who point this out to him.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  702. Isn’t it fascinating that a Hispanic Dem shooting a black teenager has tiffyosa positively unglued?

    It certainly seems to speak to the danger of pigeonholing people by ethnicity. Two minorities at each other and it throws the whole narrative off its axis.

    This is why there is silence from the Jacksons and Sharptons of the world when severe black-on-black crime occurs. It doesn’t fit the narrative and therefore should be ignored at all cost and not have attention brought to it. Mostly it doesn’t further the agenda and there is no money to be had.

    Dana (c6aa60)

  703. The sad thing is, there seems to be a consensus that Trayvon should have been able to walk through this neighborhood safely.

    There are too many neighborhoods where that would not at all be an expectation. That’s the problem I wish we could focus on.

    MayBee (081489)

  704. ___________________________________________

    It’s puzzling to me why anyone would assume that Trayvon Martin’s heart wasn’t full of good intentions, wonderful generosity and great humanity. After all, I bet most of the people around him (ie, parents, relatives, friends) are big supporters of liberals, of Democrats—and we all know they’re the epitome of generosity, kindness, humanity, sophistication, tolerance, big-heartedness (and common sense too). That’s why his his run-in with Zimmerman on that fateful evening was so contrary to his personality.

    Dailycaller.com:

    The Daily Caller has identified a second Twitter handle that was used by the late Trayvon Martin during the last weeks of 2011. Tweeting in December under the name “T33ZY TAUGHT M3,” Martin sent a message that read, “Plzz shoot da #mf dat lied 2 u!”

    It’s unclear who Martin intended the message for, or whether he intended it to be taken literally.

    The photo Martin chose to represent himself on Twitter as “T33ZY TAUGHT M3″ depicts him in a black Polo cap, looking into the camera and extending his middle finger. The photo’s file name on Twitter’s server indicates that it was taken on the afternoon of June 17, 2010.

    Additional searches via the same website yielded the Twitter handle “T33ZY TAUGHT M3,” whose activity spanned just one month and ended shortly before Martin began tweeting as “NO_LIMIT_NIGGA.”

    Although The Daily Caller has not confirmed with Martin’s family that the earlier Twitter handle belonged to the 17-year-old, there is significant evidence for the conclusion.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  705. All we need now to satisfy the likes of tifosa and surls is a guilty verdict and capital punishment; or alternatively continue trying the white half of zimmerman in the media and save the taxpayers money by allowing the “new” black panther shithead felons to assaassinate the dude and get a pass from DOJ AG Holder because “they” (Trayvon and macho black power Panthers) are his “people”.
    Of course if there is a trial and the white latino is acquitted, that’s a good excuse for blacks to riot and burn/steal things. Maybe pull another trucker out and try to bash his brains in. All I know for sure is Zimmerman’s life will never be the same, more blacks might get off their duffs to vote for one of them (the white black Obama). And if Trayvon were headed to life as a perpetual misunderstood yoot gangsta from da hood, there will be no criminal recidivism on his part nor will he have the pride of being a daddy for a multitude of babies by a multiple of baby mamas.
    I wonder whose kicking in some bucks for the very reverends Jackson and Sharpton. Pity they are oblivious to black on black killings, black on white killings, black on asian killing and black on Hispanic (white or black Hispanics) killings. Play that tiny violin. I blame the Miami area school for the mess because of their low tolerance for whatever behavior Mr. martin exhibited on school grounds. Had they not suspended him for whatever petty youthful indiscretions, he would not have likely been several hundred miles away being executed by that half white greaser democrat voter who “stalked” him. I wonder what George’s religious affiliation is? Blame it on the Joooos, perhaps. Family should sue the Zimmermans, the state of Fla., Sanford PD and George Bush.

    Calypso Louis Farrakhan (d32e4c)

  706. #706

    So, what do you want to do?

    Dispense with trials by jury?

    Maybe we should let these guys decide guilt or innocence…

    “The police department that is handling the Trayvon Martin murder has now threatened to arrest reporters who approach, e-mail, or attempt to question any city employee about the case during non-working hours, according to the Miami Herald.”

    It’s o.k. to approach and kill Trayvon Martin. No charges will be filed.

    It’s not o.k. to approach people and ask them about the killing of Trayvon martin. You will be arrested,.

    That the kind of justice you’re looking for?

    Juries don’t always get it right (especially in cases like the Simpson trial where investigators forget to get warrants, and get caught in perjury, which tends to make the jury distrust the prosecution), but they’re a hell of a lot better than the alternative.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  707. No, they ignored the evidence in the Simpson case,
    perjury is about material statements, not lines for a screen play,

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-sympathizer-arrested-after-threatening-to-hunt-down-police-chief-his-family-like-a-dog/

    narciso (83bb81)

  708. Comedy gold if not so sad. Daily caller reports that Latinos are questioning Zimmerman’s ethnicity. Right on! Solidarity between all the gangstas- black, brown, illegal aliens from El Salvador or whatever.
    We need more of Obama’s good intentions to go with the flash mobs and proposed future brown shirts group bigger than what Defense Dept. has. Why bother voting anyway? Wonder whom those 2 million dead voters still registered are voting for? or the 3 million registered in more than one state? We don’t need no stinkin’ disenfranchising voter ID garbage! Would be best if male Anglos just leave the country as they are dinosaurs anyway.

    Calypso Louis Farrakhan (d32e4c)

  709. That is sick, Calypso. Zimmerman’s life is ruined. Many people contributed to the pile on, but the President of the United States doing so really sealed the deal for him. There is no chance he will ever get a fair shake from a huge segment of the population.

    On the other hand, I wish people would stop putting Trayvon on trial. He can’t defend himself. He was writing aggressive stuff on twitter from ages 16-17… that doesn’t mean he meant it. It means he ran his mouth online a lot. That’s a common mistake. He wasn’t convicted of stealing or drug dealing and the case against him for both doesn’t seem substantial. I’ve seen people asking if he stole the skittles and Tea… with no basis.

    I get it. The media portrayed him as a very small very young boy and the reality is that they made that up. So to show that the media made it up, folks are putting Trayvon on trial. I don’t think that’s necessary.

    Dustin (330eed)

  710. It’s going to be hard to convict the guy, though, given what that one statute says. He could walk up to Martin, slap him in the face, start a fight, get his ass kicked, shoot Martin and STILL claim self defense on the basis that he feared he was in imminent danger of being killed or maimed up, as long as he wasn’t engaging in a felonious act.

    That same logic would apply to persons who resist arrest by shooting cops.

    Michael Ejercito (64388b)

  711. Some of the “GUILTY!” crowd are touting how the cops wanted to arrest him.

    The majority of police officers would rather lock up every suspect regardless of evidence, and they would certainly prefer an unarmed populace. That’s why we have district attorneys who look at the evidence and decide what the rule of law would allow them to prosecute. Talking about who the cops wanted to arrest makes as much sense as talking about who bakers want to arrest.

    Did they get Al Capone for murder, bootlegging, or robbery? No. They couldn’t prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. What they could do is prove tax evasion. If the DA can’t make the case, why would they waste tax dollars hoping that they get a great Law &Order style courtroom confession? They don’t.

    And proving this was murder (not involuntary manslaughter, not negligent homicide, but murder) takes a lot more than saying “he was black and walking!” according to the police call, he wasn’t even sure Martin was black. “ok, this guy, is he white, black, Hispanic…” “he looks black.”

    Tell you what, Dave and tiffy, go through all of his calls to the police, and find one, just one, where he says something like, “there’s a darkie walking in my neighborhood! Bring the force, I’m gonna go shoot him!” and I’ll go along with your racist hothead picking on the black kid.

    Until then, he’s a neighborhood watch captain who spotted suspicious activity and tragedy ensued. There’s no evidence that Zimmerman started the fight (unless walking while Hispanic is the same as throwing the first punch). What little evidence there is points to self defense, not murder.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  712. Ghost, I wonder what’s going to happen across this country to other neighborhood watch programs.

    I wonder if a lot of people will avoid the drama and just tend to their own business in the future. Society becomes a little more coarse and dependent on government (in this case, by accident).

    Dustin (330eed)

  713. He’s not on trial, Dustin, the false image, which can only have been a deliberate one, is being supplanted with a more realisic one.

    If his real image is so irrelevant, why were pains taken to conceal it and cast him in a different light? The false image was to create an impression that Zimmerman was unreasonable – and racist – to suspect him.

    The truth is, he was bigger, rougher, and less “nice” than asserted, and all of that tends to support the notion his behavior was probably accurately observed and reported, and that Trayvon WAS the kind of guy who would take a swing at someone who had ticked him off.

    If it is ever established, as the contents of his backpack suggested, that he will steal or help others steal, that is going to truly cut off criticism that Zimmerman’s suspicions were unreasonable.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  714. well we come back to first principles, Obama’s management experience with Ayers at the Joyce Foundation, devising new strategies to disarm
    the citizenry

    narciso (83bb81)

  715. Dustin,
    Some might throw in the towel, but any gun owner will tell you it’s better to be tried by 12 than be carried by 6.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  716. The false image was used to gin up outrage to the maximum. It worked. EZimmerman was vilified for singling Martin our as suspicious in the first place.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  717. Of course, it’ll probably change from “neighborhood watch” to “my immediate property watch.”

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  718. Sarah
    That’s the worst part. Aren’t these same collectivists always saying we need to watch out for each other?

    I had sympathy for the kids mother until she said, “they killed my son, now they’re trying to kill his reputation.” What’s this “they” crap? Zimmerman have a mouse in his pocket? Or is it the white “they” who killed him? Maybe even a white mouse in Z’s pocket?

    Wait, I forgot. The response to perceived racism is even more racism.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  719. Some might throw in the towel, but any gun owner will tell you it’s better to be tried by 12 than be carried by 6.

    Comment by Ghost — 3/29/2012

    Amen.

    He’s not on trial, Dustin, the false image, which can only have been a deliberate one, is being supplanted with a more realisic one.

    Look, I know you’re not actually trying to disgrace the recently killed kid. You’re trying to show that the media and the lynch mob are crazy.

    If it is ever established, as the contents of his backpack suggested, that he will steal or help others steal, that is going to truly cut off criticism that Zimmerman’s suspicions were unreasonable.

    I don’t believe that would work. In fact, I think seeing a burglar is a great example of a time to call the police and then not come into contact with the suspicious person. I think actually intervening is very provocative and predictably would often result in fights and tragedies, so should be done when suspicions are dispensed with and we actually see someone under attack.

    Also, since Zimmerman didn’t know about this school discipline issue, I don’t think it actually proves his suspicions were justified. They weren’t his justification for his suspicions, after all.

    His justification for his suspicion was that Trayvon was behaving strangely in the rain, apparently as though he was about to break into a home. He knows that neighborhood better than I do, so maybe that’s a great time to call the police and have them check this guy out. I wish he had not done more than this.

    I’m not talking about the shooting, though. And the shooting is the real issue driving the lynch mob.

    And this gets to my point about what’s really necessary. It’s not necessary to discuss Trayvon’s tweets and screwdriver to talk about whether Zimmerman though he needed to defend himself. The gash on his head (or the absence of one), the witness saying Zimmerman cried help, the account of Zimmerman having his head kicked or smacked into the pavement… that’s the real path to resolving whether Zimmerman needed to defend himself, in my opinion.

    Dustin (330eed)

  720. The response to perceived racism is even more racism.

    Comment by Ghost — 3/29/2012

    True. That’s a real shame. A lot of folks seemed to have assumed racism because they were led by the nose to perceive it. And now they are showing actual racism in response…

    Sadly, where there wasn’t bigotry, now there is.

    This is the race hustle. This is why Al Sharpton is a wealthy man.

    Dustin (330eed)

  721. SPQR, LYING AS PER USUAL: “There is no evidence that Martin was the “aggressor” according to Surls … except that is false, as Zimmerman’s statement is “evidence”.”

    First of all, I didn’t say “evidence”, I said “witness”.

    Second of all, the first line in my post (which you conveniently omit) said

    “I hate to keep beating on a dead horse…but, no witness, other than Zimmerman, has said that Martin was the aggressor.”

    You are blatantly lying (what a surprise) about what I said.

    ME: “Also, no witness has said that Martin was the aggressor.”

    That line was a mistake (no need to say it twice) corrected by me in post #626:

    “I meant to say that: also, no witness has said Zimmerman was the aggressor.”

    SPQR, UNCLEAR ON THE CONCEPT, ALSO AS PER USUAL: “All” circumstantial evidence says that Zimmerman is the aggressor, except that it does not since there is no evidence, circumstantial or otherwise of Zimmerman beginning the fight. Because following Martin does not make Zimmerman an “aggressor”.

    AGGRESOR:

    One who first employs hostile force. The party who first offers violence or offense. He who begins a quarrel or dispute, either by threatening or striking another.

    Calling someone an asshole and then pursuing them is, I would say, beginning a quarrel. Martin obviously regarded it as a threat (which it is) because, according to the statement of his girlfriend, and other evidence, he then tried to elude Zimmerman’s threatening and hostile action.

    Perhaps, you are unfamiliar with this definition of the word “aggressor”?

    It appears in a little tome entitled: “Black’s Law Dictionary”. Perhaps you should obtain one, so that you can learn the meaning of various words. Try looking this one up in a standard dictionary: Halfwit.

    SPQR, THE EVER IDIOTIC: “So once again, we see that Dave Surls continues to make up stuff”

    LOL.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  722. So Roseanne goes beyond where Spike Lee has gone before, now tweeting Zimmerman’s parents address,

    narciso (83bb81)

  723. _____________________________________________

    (especially in cases like the Simpson trial where investigators forget to get warrants, and get caught in perjury, which tends to make the jury distrust the prosecution)

    As though such jurors would have had so much more faith, so much more confidence, in the police and prosecution if every “i” had been dotted and every “t” had been crossed.

    That reminds me of the assumption that someone like tifosa has to be a troll. After all, how can any person be so lacking in common sense? But such people are the way they are not to inflame — or be a contrarian for contrarian’s sake — but because they really do think in a way that is inherently convoluted and devoid of basic logic. A person like that could have observed OJ in the courtroom getting out of his seat, sauntering over to the bailiff, and then stabbing him. It’s not too glib or sarcastic to muse that the observer then would have murmured, “either that was an act of simple self-defense or the stabber was someone disguised as OJ Simpson.”

    Mark (31bbb6)

  724. Dave Surls, amusing that you can’t even competently quote a dictionary definition and apply it.

    You have no evidence that Zimmerman struck Martin first, nor that he threatened him.

    And so we see that you continue to make up stuff.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  725. What makes you think there’s any backlash toward NW programs? This had nothing to do with it. NW is an observe report program only, not pursue (even to keep them in view,) not engage, and definitely no weapons.

    tifosa (f2199c)

  726. “No, they ignored the evidence in the Simpson case”

    Yeah, people tend to do that when the government screws up the investigation six ways from Sunday, and it’s always bad when a detective gets caught lying on video, and then ends up pleading out on a perjury charge.

    For some strange reason that makes people distrust evidence coming from the prosecution.

    Go figure.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  727. Dave, SPQR isn’t a liar or an idiot.

    You’re taking a position that is provocative and I respect that you’re sticking to your guns and fighting it out. I think you’re taking a lot more flack than you deserve for that, but neither you nor SPQR are idiots or liars.

    Dustin (330eed)

  728. So Roseanne goes beyond where Spike Lee has gone before, now tweeting Zimmerman’s parents address,

    Comment by narciso — 3/29/2012

    These people are monsters. Going after someone’s parents is just monstrous. This is becoming an actual war.

    Sad thing is, I know why Rosie’s doing that. She needs the attention. this is just a publicity stunt. She doesn’t care if people die, so long as she gets that publicity and poses as relevant.

    Dustin (330eed)

  729. The fact is there is no evidence, no witness, nothing, to say who the first punch, except Zimmerman’s (self-serving) statement.

    tifosa (f2199c)

  730. _____________________________________________

    I think actually intervening is very provocative and predictably would often result in fights and tragedies,

    More than ever before, we live in an age of “try not to get involved,” “the threat of lawsuits means one should be very cautious and mind his own business,” “let others take care of the problem,” and “it can’t be helped.”

    Many of us (and I include myself in that) are more risk averse than ever before, too busy in our modern, comfortable lifestyles to want to rock the boat or, to use another cliche, upset the apple cart. That’s why more people, when their community is becoming too chaotic or overly marginal, will simply pack their bags and move out instead of going to the trouble to organize the way that folks like Zimmerman did.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  731. and the only witness/evidence beyond Zimmerman’s report, regarding who approach whom is Trayvon’s gf’s statement about the phone interaction

    tifosa (f2199c)

  732. Dave, the media created this backlaah with deceptive reporting.

    And now, it seems, they have gone as far as concealing any indication of injury to the back of Z.’s head. ABC actually put a chyron over a long mark on the back of Z.’s skull.

    http://www.bob-owens.com/2012/03/abc-news-doctors-zimmerman-video-to-pedal-false-story-in-trayvon-martin-case/

    SarahW (b0e533)

  733. #733

    The semi-literate, serial liar speaks.

    Get that copy of Black’s yet?

    An armed man, calls someone an “asshole”, and then starts pursuing said someone…and it’s not initiating a quarrel, nor is it a threat…in the addled mind of SPQR.

    I’d put you on my permanent pay no mind list, but you’re way too fun to make fun of.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  734. Neighborhood Watch is explicitly NOT intervening btw.

    tifosa (f2199c)

  735. Breaking news-there’s video of Zimmerman arriving at the police station. Back of his head (closely shaven) is clearly shown, no blood, no bandage, no apparent injury. Let’s get close-ups kids. Yep, MSNBC. Meantime, on Fox-Bill O-Reilly crowing that “your humble correspondent” gets the most-trusted news sourcesomethingorother. You can’t make this up.

    Comment by tifosa — 3/28/2012 @ 5:05 pm

    Hmmm… If you look at the video–for some reason there is a big graphic that covers Zimmerman’s head most of the time–to the point that they even pan the camera shot of the (security monitor’s screen?) to keep his head obscured:

    More disgusting is the obvious fact that ABC News used a strategically placed chyron (graphic) to cover up the back of Zimmerman’s head for their broadcast, covering up the video that would have disproven their story. View the video at the Daily Caller, and you’ll not that they did not even need a chyron, their was no need to transmit any additional visual data to explain the story.

    If you follow the links, you will see a big cut (or scar?) on the right/rear side of his head.

    Usually the graphics are at the bottom of the screen and not floating towards the middle of the screen obscuring what they are trying to show.

    BfC (f4b931)

  736. Calling someone an asshole and then pursuing them is, I would say, beginning a quarrel.

    Was Martin privy to the arsehole comments?

    Why does this have you all hot and bothered, tiffyosa?

    JD (e5c06b)

  737. Tiffyosa – do you have any evidence of Z intervening?

    JD (e5c06b)

  738. I didn’t see the abc vid with the chyron. I looked it up after I read abt it.

    tifosa (f2199c)

  739. As i said, “no apparent injury.” Since then I’ve seen different versions of an injury.

    tifosa (f2199c)

  740. When he left the car and ran after him=intervening

    tifosa (f2199c)

  741. “Dave, SPQR isn’t a liar or an idiot.”

    I hate to dispute you, Dustin, but…

    He’s lied several times (see post #730 for an example), and then doubles down by refusing to acknowledge his mistatements.

    And, he doesn’t even know what “aggressor” means, which indicates ignorance, if not idiocy.

    It’s all good though. I enjoy tweaking him.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  742. Dave Surls spews: “An armed man, calls someone an “asshole”, and then starts pursuing said someone…and it’s not initiating a quarrel, nor is it a threat…in the addled mind of SPQR.

    Except that’s not the definition that Surls provided.

    AGGRESOR[sic]:

    One who first employs hostile force. The party who first offers violence or offense. He who begins a quarrel or dispute, either by threatening or striking another.

    I think that “addled” best describes someone who types in a quotation … as Surls did … and can’t even read it competently.

    But it actually is irrelevant because Black’s Law Dictionary does not control whether or not self-defense applies. Surls wants to claim that Zimmerman is an “aggressor” for the purposes of the self-defense but has no actual evidence that Zimmerman began the physical confrontation. He continues to attack others, claiming that their statements lack evidence, falsely, and yet the foundational claim of Dave Surls has zero evidence.

    This is because Surls continues to make up a definition of “aggressor” that simply is not the law. Following Martin does not make Zimmerman the aggressor. Calling Martin a name does not make Zimmerman the “aggressor”. Nor does even beginning a verbal dispute with Martin make Zimmerman an “aggressor”.

    This is all Surls’ fabrications.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  743. An armed man, calls someone an “asshole”, and then starts pursuing said someone…and it’s not initiating a quarrel, nor is it a threat

    How is the gun a threat, from Trayvon’s perspective, if George Zimmerman’s gun was concealed?

    Actually, I think the idea that George was an overweight, out of shape, apparently (though inaccurately) unarmed man instead of a police officer is possibly one of the reasons a fight broke out. There’s a reason officers are conspicuous.

    Dustin (330eed)

  744. How is the pursuit by a strange man not a threat?

    tifosa (f2199c)

  745. Dave Surls, you are not “tweaking” me. You are merely demonstrating your own lack of character.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  746. Was Trayvon within earshot when Z called him a hoodie-wearin arsehole?

    JD (e5c06b)

  747. tifosa, because pursuing someone isn’t a “threat”. A “threat” is a statement offering violence. “I’m going to kill you” is a threat.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  748. the media created this backlaah (sic) with deceptive reporting.

    Ultimately, that may be true, however, having the President make the statement he did as soon as it went national, certainly ignited the burner already primed. He learned nothing from the Henry Gates incident – because he believed himself to be in the right in interjecting himself into what he perceived an obviously racist action on the part of the police department. In this, too, he opened up the door to accusations of racism, whether tacitly or not doesn’t matter…. code and all that. He is part and parcel of making Zimmerman a marked man, and Zimmerman’s parents’ life a living hell.

    If he made a phone call of apology or held a beer summit, it would go miles to quelling the hysterical speculation of racism. And then perhaps, an even-handed investigation and outcome could take place. With no stakeholders having a say or control.

    Dana (c6aa60)

  749. A guy followed me on the bike path for 56 miles this morning. Was he a threat to me?

    JD (e5c06b)

  750. I don’t believe that would work. In fact, I think seeing a burglar is a great example of a time to call the police and then not come into contact with the suspicious person. I think actually intervening is very provocative and predictably would often result in fights and tragedies, so should be done when suspicions are dispensed with and we actually see someone under attack

    .

    I think I must specify what I mean. The reasonabless to which I refer does not mean the reasonabless of force used against Trayvon, (or even to find out where the kid fled, though I have a decided opinion about that and so does the law) but the reasonableness of suspicion that led Zimmerman to suspect him, and to call police to report a suspicious person.

    If it should be established that Trayvon had been involved in break-ins and stealing or assisting same, then any doubt about Zimmerman’s description or account of Martin’s behaviors must fall in Z’s favor.

    Also, since Zimmerman didn’t know about this school discipline issue, I don’t think it actually proves his suspicions were justified. They weren’t his justification for his suspicions, after all.

    The school discipline need not be known by Zimmerman for it to have relevance to Z’s reactions. It simply lends credibility to Zimmerman’s relayed observations. He thought it looked as though the kid’s appearance and actions showed a druggie moving in unlikely areas peering into homes as if up to no good. His description is on the tape. It’s not all about the hoodie.

    If Martin is established to be a thief, even a thief in that very neighborhood, criticism that Zimmerman saw only what his prejudice told him to see and not what a reasonable person would see, is utterly destroyed.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  751. Unfortunately, Zimmerman robbed him of the right to a fair trial

    tifosa (f2199c)

  752. More than ever before, we live in an age of “try not to get involved,” “the threat of lawsuits means one should be very cautious and mind his own business,” “let others take care of the problem,” and “it can’t be helped.”

    I do hope people get involved, Mark. I agree with you that the trend is heading the other way.

    I look after my neighbors and they me (though frankly I’m blessed with very good neighbors). But weakness is provocative. Sometimes you have no choice, but it’s just basic ‘street smarts’ that you shouldn’t engage someone from a weak position if you can avoid it, because this is provocative. George knew that the police were informed. He knew there was no imminent threat to anybody. He misjudged how the situation would unfold.

    This mistake does not mean he doesn’t have the right to defend himself. It also doesn’t make an attack from Trayvon justified (I do not know that this happened that way, to be clear).

    Everybody has cameras and phones in their pocket or purse now. Had George and Martin never come into contact, everyone would have been better off.

    Dustin (330eed)

  753. It won’t justify the killing at all.

    tifosa (f2199c)

  754. So Roseanne goes beyond where Spike Lee has gone before, now tweeting Zimmerman’s parents address,
    Comment by narciso — 3/29/2012 @ 11:16 am

    — She did say that we should bring back the guillotine.

    Of course, she was referring to the Wall St ‘robber barons’ when she said that.

    And she apparently does not know that “we” cannot ‘bring back’ the guillotine because “we” never had it to begin with.

    But her heart is in the right place.

    I wonder if anyone will ask her why she hates White Hspanics.

    Icy (0ad44c)

  755. it’s always bad when a detective gets caught lying on video, and then ends up pleading out on a perjury charge.

    Again, if you think all those left-leaning jurors would have responded any differently to the case even if the detective were, say, a black guy who used the “N” word in a way that, well, Trayvon Martin did on his Twitter account, you’re rationalizing away — doing back flips to excuse away — the foolishness of such people.

    lectlaw.com: While perjury is always a serious offense, it is rare that a witness who has given testimony is prosecuted for that perjury….

    Here there is no evidence that defendant [Mark Fuhrman] gave any false testimony about his investigative efforts. The false testimony related to personal use of a racial epithet during a time period that pre-dated the criminal investigation.

    An argument can be made that this type of perjury is less serious than giving false testimony about the investigation.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  756. tifosa, you are deliberately missing the point. Martin has been cast as squeeky clean by his family to undermine Zimmerman’s credibility. But Martin is not squeeky clean. And that means that Zimmerman’s response to seeing Martin looks less irrational. It does not itself prove self-defense – that depends upon a narrower set of actions surrounding the physical confrontation – it just undermines the narrative of those attacking Zimmerman’s original actions.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  757. The reasonabless to which I refer does not mean the reasonabless of force used against Trayvon, (or even to find out where the kid fled, though I have a decided opinion about that and so does the law) but the reasonableness of suspicion that led Zimmerman to suspect him, and to call police to report a suspicious person.

    To be honest, I think Zimmerman’s calling the cops was reasonable regardless of if Martin was an honor roll student or if he was Osama Bin laden.

    He thought it looked as though the kid’s appearance and actions showed a druggie moving in unlikely areas peering into homes as if up to no good.

    I guess I’m not in tune with society at large on this, but that’s good enough for me. Whether his gut instinct was accurate is interesting, but even if it wasn’t, merely calling in a suspicious person report is OK.

    It’s such a shame that Obama and apparently half of Hollywood and tons of bigots like Al Sharpton have seen this as an opportunity to take a side and personalize this, inciting so much more hatred.

    What Obama should have done is… well nothing actually, but if he had to do something I would have preferred he give a speech on how to be a responsible community watch citizen. This is supposed to be Obama’s big resume, right? Community organizing? He should know all about the nitty gritty details of how to do it. See something suspicious? Call it in. Record details. Don’t come into contact until there’s some imminent threat. Minimize risks and deescalate.

    Instead, Obama was taking sides to the degree that Trayvon is Obama’s adopted son now.

    Dustin (330eed)

  758. “A guy followed me on the bike path for 56 miles this morning. Was he a threat to me?”

    I don’t know.

    Did he try to sic the cops on you by claiming you were up to no good, refer to you as an “asshole”, pursue you and then finally shoot you.

    These things are all indicators of the threat level.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  759. It won’t justify the killing at all.

    Comment by tifosa — 3/29/2012 @ 11:48 am

    Coming from the person who claims to want to subvert the system and try him, despite or in spite of, the lack of evidence. Tiffyosa hearts lynch mobs.

    JD (f07c66)

  760. Mark, give it up, Surls’ understanding of the OJ case is even more superficial than his opinions on Zimmerman.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  761. SPQR, they lost a son. a son. forever. Do you have kids? Would you say a single negative thing if they were dead??

    tifosa (f2199c)

  762. Did he try to sic the cops on you by claiming you were up to no good, refer to you as an “asshole”, pursue you and then finally shoot you.

    I don’t know. Neither did Trayvon.

    JD (f07c66)

  763. “lynch mobs” is a monuMENTAL leap. Are you a ballerina?

    tifosa (f2199c)

  764. Ultimate moral authority, SPQR. The last refuge of a leftist scoundrel. STFU and let Cindy Sheehan emote.

    JD (f07c66)

  765. It won’t justify the killing at all.

    Comment by tifosa

    Self defense is not about justice. It’s about necessity.

    If someone is in reasonable fear of bodily injury, they need to defend themselves.

    If on halloween I dress up as an axe murderer and think I recognize my wife at a party, and I pretend I’m going to axe murder her (knowing she will recognize me and play along), and it turns out it’s not my wife, and that other woman is so convinced I’m a real axe murderer that she shoots me, is that justice? No. It’s got nothing to do with justice except that it would be unjust to convict her of a crime.

    People have a human right to defend themselves.

    Perhaps this misunderstanding is part of the problem. People who recognize Zimmerman’s right to defend himself are not saying that Martin deserved the death penalty. Martin was probably not sure what the hell was going on and reacted in fear.

    Dustin (330eed)

  766. tifosa, his parents decided to participate in a public debate – and their claims about their son were false. That’s what we know about their credibility.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  767. That is precisely what you and the Black Panthers and Sharpton and Spike Lee and Rev Jackson and Rseanne are doing. That it makes you uncomfortable is on you, not me.

    JD (f07c66)

  768. When you dive into moral degeneracy what do you expect? I didn’t put myself up, you put yourself down. often, JD

    tifosa (f2199c)

  769. “lynch mobs” is a monuMENTAL leap. Are you a ballerina?

    Comment by tifosa

    Do you recognize that there are indeed racist lynch mobs talking about dead or alive rewards for Zimmerman, posting addresses, etc?

    Dustin (330eed)

  770. Martin was probably not sure what the hell was going on and reacted in fear.

    If this happened the way Z claims, Martin knew exactly what was going on.

    JD (f07c66)

  771. see?

    tifosa (f2199c)

  772. Tifosa,

    It undermines your credibility when you don’t look at what evidence has been presented thus far with a critical non-emotional eye.

    We who are parents would of course be bereft and experience our entire world tipped over. We would be so emotionally devastated that it would be near impossible to remain objective and focus on the evidence and witnesses presented. That is why we would not be the ones making any ultimate decisions regarding the outcome.

    And because the parents are in the eye of the storm and experiencing such a horrific loss, it still does not mean that others should not sift, study, and critically look at and attempt to understand precisely what took place leading up to the death.

    Dana (c6aa60)

  773. good grief, Trayon is a huge brute thug AND clairvoyant???

    tifosa (f2199c)

  774. Frankly, I’ve gotten pretty tired of the current fashion of family members of criminals getting on TV and claiming how wonderful their criminal offspring were.

    Martin’s level of criminality appears to be very petty and only marginally relevant.

    However, too often I’ve seen some armed robber, someone actually pointing guns at innocent people during a robbery of a store, who is then killed quite legitimately as a result. And viola, up pop the family to claim that no one had a right to kill their scum son or brother armed robber. Just that thing happened a few months ago in the aftermath of an armed robbery of a check-cashing location locally.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  775. When you dive into moral degeneracy what do you expect? I didn’t put myself up, you put yourself down. often, JD

    Comment by tifosa — 3/29/2012 @ 12:02 pm

    Gibberish, nonsensical, and not even in the ballpark of honest. Specify my moral degeneracy. Disagreeing with tiffyosa makes you a moral degenerate.

    JD (f07c66)

  776. name-calling is sooooooooo 3rd grade JD.

    tifosa (f2199c)

  777. ____________________________________________

    He misjudged how the situation would unfold.

    But I’m still not totally sure what the situation you describe truly was like on that evening. There is still a big gray area as to the precise movements of Zimmerman and Martin.

    I previously mentioned that it’s possible Zimmerman began to trail Martin, then turned back around towards his car, either to get on his cell phone or because Martin was playing a very good game of cat-and-mouse. If Martin then, out of resentment at having to tone down his behavior and also wanting to display a chip on his shoulder, decided to be the “cat” in that game, he could have been welcomed creating a sucker-punch confrontation with Zimmerman.

    Of course, this remains all speculation, so it comes down to who one believes deserves the greatest benefit of the doubt.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  778. Martin was probably not sure what the hell was going on and reacted in fear.

    If this happened the way Z claims, Martin knew exactly what was going on.

    Comment by JD — 3/29/2012

    That’s merely possible. I don’t know that Martin was scoping out a home for a burglary and then realized Zimmerman was trying to stop him. It’s possible Martin was simply angry that someone was hassling him as he walked home, and reacted aggressively to the situation.

    Regardless, had Martin seen a police car a few minutes later, instead of George, that would have worked out better.

    Dustin (330eed)

  779. “you’re rationalizing away”

    No offense, Mark, but I think you’re the one who’s rationalizing here.

    The state got caught in all kinds of misconduct in the Simpson trial, and it destroyed their credibilty.

    They had an airtight case…and they totally blew it.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  780. You give no credibility to his girlfriend’s description of the phone call?

    tifosa (f2199c)

  781. But I’m still not totally sure what the situation you describe truly was like on that evening.

    Good point, Mark. But I imagine whatever happened was not what anyone had wanted to happen.

    Dustin (330eed)

  782. I previously mentioned that it’s possible Zimmerman began to trail Martin, then turned back around towards his car, either to get on his cell phone or because Martin was playing a very good game of cat-and-mouse. If Martin then, out of resentment at having to tone down his behavior and also wanting to display a chip on his shoulder, decided to be the “cat” in that game, he could have been welcomed creating a sucker-punch confrontation with Zimmerman.

    That sounds pretty realistic to me.

    Dustin (330eed)

  783. It fascinates me how this issue has tiffyosa in such a lather.

    JD (f07c66)

  784. Why would a “criminal kid” who’s trying to evade capture (sigh) then pursue?

    tifosa (f2199c)

  785. Besides the description of what was heard over the phone negates that.

    tifosa (f2199c)

  786. No, Dave, the state did not get caught in misconduct during the Simpson trial. All of the alleged “misconduct” was hot air created by the Simpson defense team, without any actual foundation at all, and it should never have been allowed into the trial at all but for Judge Ito’s star-struck incompetence.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  787. “Mark, give it up, Surls’ understanding of the OJ case is even more superficial than his opinions on Zimmerman.”

    ROTFL.

    Hey, SPQR, are you familiar with what the word “aggressor” means yet?

    No?

    Well, you keep working on it.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  788. _________________________________________________

    It’s such a shame that Obama and apparently half of Hollywood and tons of bigots like Al Sharpton

    And isn’t it so very telling that many of those people live in communities where there are guard gates, heavy security patrols and well-placed cameras, or plenty of high walls.

    I won’t say anything about many (if not most) of those same folks proclaiming the virtues of public schools while sending their own kids to private academies (Hi, Barack and Michelle—to when you were living in Chicago and now DC!).

    Mark (31bbb6)

  789. Dave Surls, actually I do know what the word “aggressor” means. I know what it means in actual self defense law, unlike you. For it does not mean someone who has used the word “asshole”. In self-defense law, it means the person who began the physical confrontation.

    But you go ahead and keep making up stuff. Its what makes you, you.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  790. SPQR – Let’s assume the deceased heard himself being referred to as an arsehole. Would that change anything?

    JD (f07c66)

  791. Its always hilarious when people think that Black’s Law Dictionary is actual binding law.

    Its not.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  792. JD, not a thing.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  793. You give no credibility to his girlfriend’s description of the phone call?
    Comment by tifosa — 3/29/2012 @ 12:09 pm

    — Okay, let’s buckle down, sharpen our pencils and do some figgerin’ . . . boyfriend has just been shot dead, she’s devastated, doesn’t want to believe that it happened, understandably wants the person that killed her boyfriend to be held accountable . . . sure, she should be seen as an unimpeachable, objective, credible witness.

    Icy (0ad44c)

  794. “No, Dave, the state did not get caught in misconduct during the Simpson trial.”

    The ever-amazing SPQR strikes again

    Just one of many examples:

    “During cross-examination, Fuhrman, when asked by defense attorney F. Lee Bailey whether he had used the word “nigger”, said he hadn’t used the word in 10 years. The defense produced four witnesses to establish that Fuhrman had used the word “nigger” more recently, as well as an audiotape contradicting his testimony. This testimony eventually resulted in a perjury conviction. In one 1985 recording, Fuhrman gave a taped interview to Laura Hart McKinny, a writer working on a screenplay about female police officers. In another interview, he talked about gang members and was quoted as saying, “Yeah we work with niggers and gangs. You can take one of these niggers, drag ’em into the alley and beat the shit out of them and kick them. You can see them twitch. It really relieves your tension.”–wiki

    Just in case your uncertain exactly what the word means:

    MISCONDUCT: A misconduct is a legal term meaning a wrongful, improper, or unlawful conduct motivated by premeditated or intentional purpose or by obstinate indifference to the consequences of one’s acts–also wiki

    For some reason when people see misconduct, like detectives lying under oath, or detectives admitting to misconduct like dragging people into alleys and beating the shit out of them, they get all rattled and tend not to trust the prosecution.

    Or at least, that’s my observation.

    [Found in filter.]

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  795. “Of course, this remains all speculation, so it comes down to who one believes deserves the greatest benefit of the doubt.

    Comment by Mark — 3/29/2012 @ 12:07 pm

    Except that now this is a criminal matter, and Martin is not obviously going to be charged with a crime. So our system gives Zimmerman “the benefit of the doubt”.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  796. I see that when the always rational Dana (at 12:02 pm) directed some thoughtful observations toward Ms tifosa she could not be bothered to respond or even to acknowledge them. It’s obviously so much more fun to flap her skirts and fling poo at JD and SPQR and others, than to engage in any sort of meaningful dialogue about the tragedy in Sanford.

    elissa (c072d8)

  797. _____________________________________________

    Why would a “criminal kid” who’s trying to evade capture (sigh) then pursue?

    Perhaps for the same reason he reportedly bopped a bus driver on the head? For the cheap thrills of it all.

    Moreover, if he was only casually observing the security (or lack of such) of the homes in the community at that moment, he would have had less reason to really want to stay in the shadows and lie low.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  798. Icy, you don’t believe gf’s statement because she has an agenda but Zimmerman doesn’t? uh yeh

    tifosa (f2199c)

  799. hearsay

    tifosa (f2199c)

  800. tifosa is using words they don’t understand again.

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  801. i didn’t see dana’s , i was looking back early in this thread

    tifosa (f2199c)

  802. and ohmy noodles, are you…

    tifosa (f2199c)

  803. “Its always hilarious when people think that Black’s Law Dictionary is actual binding law.”

    That would be hilarious.

    Did someone do that?

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  804. Martin was speaking on a cell phone at the time of the incident. Martin’s girlfriend came forward, identifying herself as the other person in that conversation; she was interviewed by an attorney, who has made a statement, and her parents have requested her anonymity. The girl said that Martin expressed concern about a strange man following him, and she advised him to run. She says she heard Martin say “What are you following me for?” followed by a man’s voice responding “What are you doing here?” She said that she heard the sound of pushing and that Martin’s headset suddenly went silent, leading her to believe that he had been knocked down. She attempted to call him back immediately, but was unable to reach him…sammy

    What proof is there that that wasn’t the end. And Zimmerman’s statement was a lie?

    tifosa (f2199c)

  805. Now you must prove a negative !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    JD (e5c06b)

  806. Why is this thread still happening?

    Leviticus (91e44c)

  807. “good grief, Trayon is a huge brute thug AND clairvoyant???”

    tiffy – I don’t know about big brute, but isn’t clairvoyance part of your argument when you claim Zimmerman calling Martin an asshole is relevant to Martin’s reaction even though Martin was not a party to the phone call?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  808. Not to downplay the severity of the situation or anything. But tifosa is a troll, and Mr. Surls has an entrenched principled position the rightness or wrongness of which will depend on as-yet-unestablished facts which will (hopefully) come to light subsequently.

    Leviticus (91e44c)

  809. tiffy is a proud member of the Society for the Preservation of Racism.

    Identity Politics! Get some today. Vote Democrat.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  810. Dave Spurls, regarding your post at 809… following is part of your comment in post 769, although you don’t specifically say that Blacks is binding law, the inference that you believe that it is is unavoidable.

    Your words: AGGRESOR: One who first employs hostile force. The party who first offers violence or offense. He who begins a quarrel or dispute, either by threatening or striking another.

    Calling someone an asshole and then pursuing them is, I would say, beginning a quarrel. Martin obviously regarded it as a threat (which it is) because, according to the statement of his girlfriend, and other evidence, he then tried to elude Zimmerman’s threatening and hostile action.

    Perhaps, you are unfamiliar with this definition of the word “aggressor”?

    It appears in a little tome entitled: “Black’s Law Dictionary”. Perhaps you should obtain one, so that you can learn the meaning of various words. Try looking this one up in a standard dictionary: Halfwit.

    labcatcher (61737c)

  811. Why is this thread still happening?

    Comment by Leviticus

    I don’t know either.

    But since Trayvon’s shooting there have been roughly 100 murders and probably thirty in Trayvon’s demographic (I do not care about highlighting murders in any particular demo).

    It seems like a useful distraction from relatively more important matters. I imagine Obama would be delighted if this was the national story during the Tampa convention, instead of the Obamacare collapse (Which is largely due to Obama and Pelosi and Reid’s total incompetence in leading the process to be constitutional and reasonable).

    But tifosa is a troll, and Mr. Surls has an entrenched principled position

    I agree.

    Dustin (330eed)

  812. Agreed Dana. An investigation, not printing lies fake pics, etc smearing his name. Correct me if I’m wrong, but as a parent wouldn’t it infuriate you that the person who shot him is free and negative attention is turned on your deceased child? After all, what would problem/non-violent behavior in the past have to do to rationalize his death? I appreciate your input as a parent. Look at the leaps of conjecture that are made by people who know nothing more than you do about what occurred (ie read in here.) btw, the FoxNews.com and foxnation sites have stuff that would be abhorrent for a parent to read..

    tifosa (f2199c)

  813. tifosa, even if everything that Martin’s gf said was true, it does nothing to actually refute what we’ve heard of Zimmerman’s version – this is because the gf’s version does not establish that Zimmerman began the physical confrontation nor does it establish that the confrontation she describes was the beginning of the fatal events rather than an earlier confrontation that got continued later.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  814. “But tifosa is a troll”

    Dustin – Last seen vigorously dissembling over objections to ObamaCare’s newly imposed mandate on religious institutions to provide free contraceptive services in their health plans over their conscience objections and in violation of the Restoration of the Restoration of Religious Freeedom Act as an attack on women rather than a violation of religious freedoms.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  815. Rocks, I don’t know what I wrote that you construed that from, but you’re way off.

    tifosa (f2199c)

  816. Icy, you don’t believe gf’s statement because she has an agenda but Zimmerman doesn’t? uh yeh
    Comment by tifosa — 3/29/2012 @ 12:50 pm

    — About Zimmerman’s statement, I said WHAT?

    Icy (0ad44c)

  817. “Rocks, I don’t know what I wrote that you construed that from, but you’re way off.”

    tiffy – That would be your comments, hon.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  818. At least MLK’s niece and some people with ties to the NAACP are telling the Jackson’s and Sharpton’s of the world to cool it.

    Has Obama said anything more than martin would look like his son? no words of calm and restraint from the great uniter?

    Is Martin looking like Obama’s son more important than if he looked like my son? (I am purple with green and pink spots).

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  819. What’s the record for comments on a PP post?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  820. I believe the record is 3765, MD. That Weinergate monster thread.

    Dustin (330eed)

  821. ==I am purple with green and pink spots==

    You might want to see a doctor about that, Philly. Seriously. Oh wait.

    elissa (c072d8)

  822. I’m still trying to figure out how a dictionary of legal terms COULD be binding law.

    It wouldn’t have a whole lot of oomph.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  823. I just wanted to re-state that Tifosa is an obsessive troll who lives to disrupt right leaning web sites and is part of Occupy Wall Street and hangs out at Global Revolution TV.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  824. 830, MD… no, I think it’s something like 2,980…

    Colonel Haiku (03f86b)

  825. Tiffy, here is my problem with the girlfriend’s statement — I believe the attorney she made the statement to is the attorney representing the parents. He has relayed what he claims she told him — she has not said anything. So, what we have is the attorney’s characterization of her comments, not her comments themselves.

    You might say the samething about Zimmerman’s comments to the police, but the police aren’t representing Zimmerman. And Zimmerman’s statements are made in the immediate aftermath of the event. Its unlikely under the stress of the event and with little time to think it through that Zimmerman could concoct a coherent and internally consistent story to get him off the hook if he what he said to the police about the incident was actually false.

    Teh family attorney, on the other hand, has lots of time to think about just how he wants to charaterize the statment of the girlfriend for maximum impact and to cast Martin in the best light and ZImmerman in the worst light.

    shipwreckedcrew (bafbcb)

  826. A typicasl “statute” from Black’s Law Code (Dictionary)

    “JURIDICAL DAY”

    “A day proper for the transaction of business in court; one on which the court may lawfully sit. excluding Sundays and some holidays.”

    Now, that’s my kind of law.

    There’s no command, no prohibition, and no penalty if you don’t obey.

    Wish the tax code was like that.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  827. teh girlfriend still be
    drippin’ that’s way he leaves ’em
    per Mister Icy

    Colonel Haiku (03f86b)

  828. and ohmy noodles, are you…

    Comment by tifosa — 3/29/2012 @ 12:53 pm

    Am I who? The suspense is killing me.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  829. “Its always hilarious when people think that Black’s Law Dictionary is actual binding law.”

    True story – Hubs had to talk client out of outrage at special law dictionary for blacks.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  830. c’mon big ZER0
    teh donkey unemployment
    still stubborn problem!

    http://houston.cbslocal.com/2012/03/29/farmers-abandoning-hundreds-of-donkeys-due-to-severe-drought/

    Colonel Haiku (03f86b)

  831. Maybe I misread you tifosa, and you mean I am nuts? lol No, Global Revolution TV is nuts.

    I’ll leave this here so you feel at home.

    “MIC CHECK!”

    Noodles (3681c4)

  832. Hundreds of supporters abandoning donkey party due to severe drought of viable solutions

    FIFY

    Icy (0ad44c)

  833. With the demonization by the usual suspects on the Left of George Zimmerman, will this shore up Teh Won’s black vote more than he’s going to lose in the Hispanic community – particularly within FL?

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  834. Zimmerman after making sure that the police/medics located Martin (perhaps he should not even have done that)–Should have kept his mouth shut until he had his lawyer present (to preserve his rights).

    You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say or do can and will be held against you in a court of law. You have the right to speak to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you. Do you understand these rights as they have been read to you?[

    Thank you Mr Miranda.

    BfC (fd87e7)

  835. #824 Icy did you? see the “?”

    tifosa (f2199c)

  836. big ZER0 throw down
    divide along race and class
    you reap what you sow

    Colonel Haiku (03f86b)

  837. GF is 16. She’s been subpoenaed to testify at Grand Jury.

    tifosa (f2199c)

  838. sit down have a beer
    with Al and Panthers you can
    say I told you so

    Colonel Haiku (03f86b)

  839. 844…apparently hispanics are throwing Zimmerman under the bus and questioning his bona fides as a latino. Daily Caller has more on that. Others have insisted that George’s white half is at fault. Which part of Obama’s ethnic background do we blame for wrecking the country? I mean beyond the massive damage he inherited from the evil genius/idiot Booosh? Personally all this non-colorblind crap makes me ticked off. Whatever happened to Martin Luther King Jr. ideal of judging a man by the content of his character and NOT by the color of his skin? Very sad that Zimmerman was not deemed black I suppose because then no one would bother with the story. At least not the media, Sharpton,Jackson nor assorted other assclowns. As far as color goes, I thought Urkel himself was half white from his mom and 1/8 black and 3/8 Arabic from his dad?

    Calypso Louis Farrakhan (d32e4c)

  840. an eyewitness, 13-year-old Austin Brown, told police he saw a man fitting Zimmerman’s description lying on the grass moaning and crying for help just seconds before he heard the gunshot that killed Martin.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  841. with facts that are known
    would be ZER0 interest
    if dead kid was white

    Colonel Haiku (03f86b)

  842. and if I’m lyin’, I’m dyin’.

    Colonel Haiku (03f86b)

  843. http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475

    49 seconds in what is the police officer looking at?

    Sure looks like he is checking out the back of Zimmerman’s head. Why would that be?

    Noodles (3681c4)

  844. “Rocks, I don’t know what I wrote that you construed that from, but you’re way off.”

    tiffy – My apologies. I may have confused you with another progressive troll on the Sandra Fluke/war on women/gold plated contraception threads.

    My bad. You all look alike.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  845. In fact, you all could be the same.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  846. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say or do can and will be held against you in a court of law. You have the right to speak to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you. Do you understand these rights as they have been read to you?[

    That’s another reason he was not arrested.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  847. Comment by shipwreckedcrew — 3/29/2012 @ 2:02 pm

    Its unlikely under the stress of the event and with little time to think it through that Zimmerman could concoct a coherent and internally consistent story to get him off the hook if he what he said to the police about the incident was actually false.

    The claim is he concocted a story taht is obviousl;y false – look at him -could his head have been banged into the pavement? The problem is, he never said that. Whoever wrote ouyt that report got it wrong.

    Teh family attorney, on the other hand, has lots of time to think about just how he wants to charaterize the statment of the girlfriend for maximum impact and to cast Martin in the best light and ZImmerman in the worst light

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  848. shipwreckedcrew: Where did our earlier exchange go?

    I was wrong about the Orlando Sentinel story being based on the initial police report, but I wasn’t wrong A POLICE REPORT being wrong, basically a fabrication with only a loose relationship to the facts. It had George Zimmerman say something he almiost certainly never said – that his head was slammed into the sidewalk. His head was slammed into the grass between two buildings. A very important distinction. The police nbever confirmed the truth of that statement, even the truth that Zimmerman said it, but only the truth taht that’s in a police report.

    Now it’s being cited as proof Zimmerman is a liar.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  849. wasn’t wrong about A POLICE REPORT being wrong.

    A misstatement of what George Zimmerman said.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  850. Sammy, see #741.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  851. Yes he was injured, but he didn’t have the kind of concussion he would have had had his head been slammed into concrete. Now they’re going for broke and claiming no injuries at all. It’s a nice question who edited it to remove any sign of any injury at all to the back of his head.

    There’s too much money and politics in this.

    But still, there is a underlying truth. The injuries he had are not consistent with his head being repeatedly slammed into the concrete. Nor was his medical treatment consistent with that. they would have taken him to a hospital and X-rayed him. The lawyers didn’t start with nothing and you shouldn’t fall into the trap of thinking the report of Zimmerman’s head being banged into the pavement is right..

    Now we have this:

    http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/28/video-shows-george-zimmerman-arriving-at-police-station-trayvon-martin/?scp=1&sq=police%20surveillance%20video&st=cse

    Mr. Zimmerman, 28, said he shot the 17-year-old high school student, Trayvon Martin, in self-defense after a violent altercation in which Trayvon punched him in the nose, knocked him over and slammed his head into the sidewalk. Mr. Zimmerman has not been arrested or charged. His lawyer, Craig Sonner, has said Mr. Zimmerman’s nose was broken in the altercation.

    In the video, which shows Mr. Zimmerman in police custody shortly after Trayvon was shot, Mr. Zimmerman’s face and head show no obvious signs of injuries or blood. The soundless clip, which is 1 minute and 27 seconds, does show Mr. Zimmerman exiting a police car at the Sanford police precinct station house…

    In an interview Wednesday night with Piers Morgan on CNN, Trayvon’s mother, Sybrina Fulton, said the video cast doubts on Mr. Zimmerman’s story.

    Or, in the newspaper story:

    In an interview on Wednesday on CNN, Trayvon’s mother, Sybrina Fulton, said the video cast doubts on Mr. Zimmerman’s story: “It was obvious there were no visible injuries.”.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  852. Besides checking out Z’s head, it also looks like the police officer is wiping blood off of his finger (yes, I know that it could be something else).

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475

    Noodles (3681c4)

  853. Sorry – posts 504, 505 and 666 are still here and the dates they were posted were Tuesday and Wednesday.

    I just couldn’t find them with a search for the word “fabrication” using Ctrl-F. I don’t know
    why.

    Actually searching on the web page with Ctrl-F in Internet Explorer seems to have problems all the time. It will miss things – it’s hard sometimes to get it to actually search. Apparently it sometimes thinks it’s already been found.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  854. From the actual initial partial police report:

    The case was put into the category of:

    HOMICID-NEGLIG
    MANSL-UNNECESSARY KILLING TO
    PREVENT UNLAWFUL ACT

    Statute 782.11 UCR 090C ordinance: No Attempt/commit: C DCR: No.

    The address of the incident is given as 2831 Retreat View Circle Sanford Florida 32771. (in the individual reports, the location Officer Timothy Smith went to is given as 2821 Retreat View Circle)
    ,
    Trayvon Martin was laying (dead or dying) on the grass between 1231 Twin Trees Lane and 2821 Retreat View Circle.

    The initial dispatch, at approximately 7:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, was to go to 1111 Retreat View Circle. The time of arrival is also given as 7:17 PM, obviously incorrectly, probably because neither Ricardo Ayala or Timothy Smith (who arrived first, maybe a minute ahead of Ayala) stopped to look at his watch.

    There are 5 witnesses and the Subject (George Zimmerman) and the Victim (Trayvon Benjamin Martin) mentioned in the report.

    The names and the addresses and the phone numbers of the witnesses are redacted out of the published report, but not their dates of birth.

    The witnesses talked to by 3 AM Monday morning were:

    White male, born April 18, 1982, 6 feet high. 170 pounds.

    White female, born July 28, 1982, 5 foot 6. 150 pounds.

    White female, born June 7, 1975, 5 foot 2. 125 pounds.

    White female, born August 25, 1955, 5 foot 5. 120 pounds.

    White male, born August 28, 1981, 6 foot 2. 195 pounds.

    George Michael Zimmerman was born October 10, 1983.

    Trayvon Benjamin Martin was born February 5, 1995 and is categorized as a juvenile. All the others are adults.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  855. #850 Brown’s mother was on msnbc and described the situation, their meeting questioning by Serino..etc. that’s not accurate. Thanx for that msnbc referral btw 😉

    tifosa (f2199c)

  856. Ricardo Ayala’s report:

    This is the police report filed by the original responding police officer (not the one who was first on the scene) at 2:27 AM Monday. February 27, 2012:

    On 2/26/12, at approximately 1917 hours, I was dispatched to 1111 Retreat View Cir in reference to a complainant seeing a suspicious person in the area. While en route the dispatch stated the [sic] they were receiving calls in reference to gun shots being heard in the area I was
    responding to.

    Ofc. T. Smith stated via radio he was arriving in the area. Ofc. T. Smith later states that there was one subject shot and he had one at gun point.

    Upon arrival Ofc. T. Smith had a white male, later identified as George Zimmerman, in custody. Zimmerman was also the original caller in
    reference to the suspicious person.

    I then noticed that there was, what appeared to be a black male wearing a gray sweater, blue jeans, and white/red sneakers laying face down on
    the ground. The black male had his hands underneath his body. I attempted to get a response from the black male,but was met with negative results.

    At that time Sgt. Raimondo arrived and attempted to get a pulse on the black male but none was found. At that time, Sgt. Raimondo and I turned
    the black male over and began CPR.. Sgt. Raimondo did breaths and I did chest compressions.

    Sgt. S. McCoy arrived on scene and releived me continuing compressions.

    Sanford Fire Rescue arrived on scene and attempted to revive the subject, but could not. Paramedic Brady pronounced the subject deceased at 1930 hours.

    The scene was then secured with crime scene tape by Ofc. Mead and Ofc. Wagner. Ofc. Robertson began a crime scene contamination log.

    Lt. Taylor arrived on scene and notified dispatch to have Major Crimes respond to the scene.

    Ofc. Mead and Ofc. Wagner were able to make contact with neighbors in the area. They were able to obtain statements from all witnesses on
    scene.

    The scene was turned over to SPD Major Crimes.

    ===========================

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  857. @865 #850 Brown’s mother was on msnbc and described the situation, their meeting questioning by Serino..etc. that’s not accurate. Thanx for that msnbc referral btw 😉

    Really, I’d like to see it. You claim that it’s not accurate. I have linked you to a video of the kid saying it. I’d like to see the one of the mother that magically makes it inaccurate.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  858. @ Tifosa,

    An investigation, not printing lies fake pics, etc smearing his name.

    Printing lies, fake pics and smearing his name should not be done – to either Mr. Martin and Mr. Zimmerman. Unfortunately, there are too many interested parties with political agendas that have seen fit to exploit a horrific tragedy for their gain. First and foremost: President Obama.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but as a parent wouldn’t it infuriate you that the person who shot him is free and negative attention is turned on your deceased child?

    Of course it would infuriate me, and of course it would be anguishing to see negative attention toward my deceased child. But that does not and should not impede an investigation in any way. That is a separate issue and one that should not be influenced by the grief of the parents. You cannot prevent the media whores and politicians from their feeding frenzy any more than an investigation can avoid and ignore evidence to prevent further grief to the parents.

    One more thing about this: parents, even loving and good ones, are often the ones blind to the activities and real involvements of their teenagers. Whether from a head-in-the-sand avoidance or a lack of interest, teenagers easily lead secret lives and learn how to navigate the waters enough to keep their parents out of it.

    After all, what would problem/non-violent behavior in the past have to do to rationalize his death?

    In reading about Trayvon, he wasn’t quite the standup guy that the media sought to portray him as (suspended 3x, pot, possession of women’s jewelry, graffiti) I realize his attorney has claimed that these issues are irrelevant to the killing of Trayvon, but he really doesn’t know. What it seems one needs to know if they were going to make an assessment about his non-violent yet illegal activities, was just how angry of a young man was he? Teenage males do dumb stuff regularly, however, crossing over into illegal stuff indicates a less than happy teenager. Angry comes to mind.

    Look at the leaps of conjecture that are made by people who know nothing more than you do about what occurred (ie read in here.) btw, the FoxNews.com and foxnation sites have stuff that would be abhorrent for a parent to read..

    There is a lot of conjecture, however, there are also a lot of smart people walking through the facts as well as attempting to understand and clarify Florida’s law. There is also the question of whether too much forces was used; the consistent statements of Zimmerman now supported by witnesses and evidence.

    You consistently seem to be unable to separate your emotions from looking objectively at what we actually *know* so far. Without being able to do that, you already have a pre-supposition(s) firmly in place, influencing your position and preventing impartiality.

    I haven’t seen the Fox foxnation pieces that would be offensive. It’s good ask *why* they might be offensive. If it’s because a good son and good person is being misrepresented, that’s one thing; however, if it’s because certain truths have come to light that discredit that son and it brings shame to the parents, that’s another matter entirely and one that the parents will have to arduously grapple with – or ignore and/or deny.

    Dana (c6aa60)

  859. I blame Fox. And Bush. And conservatives. For forcing Teh One to politicize this tragedy.

    JD (e5c06b)

  860. Sammy,

    Please link things instead of reprinting other articles and documents here.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  861. Here is the raw video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZVMZs4X90Q

    Why would this kid lie? He has no reason to.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  862. Sammy — Google Maps is your friend.

    Retreat View and Twin Trees are streets that run parallel to each other. There are houses on each street, with the rear of houses on each street facing each other. There appears to be no fences separating the backyards. There is a large grass area between the houses that face the separate streets, and right down the center of this grassy area is a big fat CONCRETE SIDEWALK.

    From the appearance of the driveways, the units are either duplexs or fourplexs, and in between units there is a strip of land where you can cross from the front to the back, and then on to the houses on the next street over. The description of events seems to confirm that ZImmerman had parked his SUV on one street, and was walking back towards his car going between the units, most likely on the sidewalk since it was raining and the grass would have been wet. He certainly could have been punched while walking on the sidewalk, his his head, but in the struggle they both ended up on the grass. We know that Martin ended up face down on the grass after he was shot.

    But the scene certainly has a sidewalk prominently running the entire length of the grassy area where the events unfolded.

    http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&q=2821+retreat+view+circle+sanford+florida&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x88e712982faedac1:0x9707150f6d1dbe2b,2821+Retreat+View+Cir,+Sanford,+FL+32771&gl=us&ei=YQB1T5zYGsyq0AH-tLnXDQ&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ8gEwAA

    shipwreckedcrew (bafbcb)

  863. It might be that he was first on concrete (and they did somehow move from the sidewalk into the grass)

    George Zimmerman’s father [*] has it like this:

    ZIMMERMAN: After nearly a minute of being beaten, George was trying to get his head off the concrete, trying to move with Trayvon on him into the grass. In doing so, his firearm was shown. Trayvon Martin said something to the effect of, “You’re gonna die now,” or, “You’re gonna die tonight,” something to that effect. He continued to beat George and at some point George pulled his pistol and did what he did.

    Trayvon is on him, and he carries him some distance into the grass between the buildings?

    His father also said:

    ZIMMERMAN: I never saw so much hate coming from the president, the Congressional Black Caucus, the NAACP. Every organization imaginable is trying to get notoriety or profit from this in some way. But there’s so much hate. I’ve never been involved in — in hate, and George hasn’t, and it’s really unbelievable.

    [*] Father. I think he might be his step-father, though.

    They’re trying to tell people that black males are not more likely (in this and the preceding two generations) to be criminals, and if people are forced to pretend that, things will never change. Which may be the idea.

    Sammy Finkelman (5736b6)

  864. Trayvon had been suspended from his school for 10 days. When he was killed he was staying at his father’s fiancées place in another city rather than serving out the suspension days at his home where he lived with mom. Has anybody read or seen any coverage about this? The two teens I have ever personally known who got suspended from school were also grounded at home for the duration by their unhappy parents as an object lesson. I am a little curious if there was a reason mom sent T. away at that time rather than monitoring and supervising him at home. (I can think of several reasons that a mother might have.) I also don’t think I’ve seen anywhere how long Trayvon had already been in Sanford. Does any one here know that?

    I don’t want this to come across to anybody as me making assumptions or allegations or criticisms or casting blame because I’m not. But the more I think about it I have to admit I’m interested in this aspect of Trayvon’s story and the role it may have played. Because had he been at home, confined to his room, instead of in Sanford, he’d almost certainly be alive and eating candy today instead of being dead and at the center of a national drama.

    elissa (c072d8)

  865. That still doesn’t have Trayvon Martin successfully banging George Zimmerman’s head onto concrete.

    Zimmerman could never have said that, or they’d have taken him to a hospital to be X-rayed, and he;d be much more visibly injured..

    Sammy Finkelman (5736b6)

  866. Trayvon Martin probably thought George Zimmerman was a pedophile.

    Like Jerry Sandusky.

    Sammy Finkelman (5736b6)

  867. Zimmerman was checked at the scene by paramedics, and treated. The fact that they didn’t think he required ER attention prior to questioning doesn’t mean he had no injuries — it just means his injuries were so severe that immediate medical attention was required.

    shipwreckedcrew (bafbcb)

  868. “Dave Surls, actually I do know what the word “aggressor” means. I know what it means in actual self defense law, unlike you. For it does not mean someone who has used the word “asshole”. In self-defense law, it means the person who began the physical confrontation.”

    No, actually, it looks like you don’t know what it means, even though I’ve told you what it means.

    And, of course, I didn’t say that someone who used the word “asshole” is an aggressor. But, then lying about or distorting the things I say is what you do.

    “This is not to say that Zimmerman could not be initial aggressor. If he followed Martin down the street with the intent to precipitate a violent encounter, or if he initiated physical contact, he would likely be the initial aggressor as a matter of law.”–Michael J.Z. Mannheimer,JD

    Kinds like it says in Black’s (non-binding) Law Dictionary.

    Consider it stipulated that Michael Mannheimer’s opinion is also not binding, so we won’t have to waste time with a nonsense claim by you.

    Circumstances (Zimmerman making a baseless accusation of wrongdoing against Martin, referring to the boy as an “asshole”, pursuing him while armed, the boy attempting to evade pursuit, and then the shooting and killing of Martin) points towards Zimmerman being the aggressor, only it looks like under Florida law, that’s not going to be much of an issue, since Zimmerman can use deadly force against Martin, even if Zimmerman was the aggressor, depending on the circumstances.

    And, no, I’m not making things up.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  869. I could well be wrong about some things (I know a lot, but not everything), but I do not make things up, despite SPQR’s absurd allegations about what I do.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  870. Surls – did Martin hear Z call him an arsehole?

    JD (318f81)

  871. Dave Surls spews: “An armed man, calls someone an “asshole”, and then starts pursuing said someone…and it’s not initiating a quarrel, nor is it a threat…in the addled mind of SPQR.”

    And then later Dave writes: “And, of course, I didn’t say that someone who used the word “asshole” is an aggressor.

    “And, no, I’m not making things up.

    Yep, Dave, you are. And you accuse me of lying about your statements, when you contradict yourself. The knucklehead here is you.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  872. “And then later Dave writes: “And, of course, I didn’t say that someone who used the word “asshole” is an aggressor”

    That’s right, I never said that.

    I listed a few things that indicate Zimmerman was the aggressor, not just one thing.

    And, you know that’s what I did.

    And, you’re simply a bald-faced liar, about that and a whole bunch of other things.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  873. “Surls – did Martin hear Z call him an arsehole?”

    Doesn’t seem likely, given the circumstances, however it is an indication that he had hostile intent towards Martin.

    Wouldn’t you say?

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  874. Nope. How would he know that, if he did not hear it? Martin assumed hostile intent based on not hearing something?

    JD (318f81)

  875. “Zimmerman was checked at the scene by paramedics, and treated”

    Yeah, I cut my finger the other day and put a band-aid on it.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  876. What does a blunt force impact injury to the head look like?

    Is there any evidence for broken nose?

    JD (318f81)

  877. Well outside of the fatal shooting, there is little
    else that can be established;

    http://macsmind.com/wordpress/2012/03/trayvor-martin-didnt-have-skittles-and-ice-tea-in-his-possession-when-shot/

    narciso (401ed3)

  878. “Nope. How would he know that, if he did not hear it? Martin assumed hostile intent based on not hearing something?”

    What are you talking about?

    I asked if you thought that Zimmerman referring to Martin as an asshole indicated hostile intent on the part of Zimmerman.

    And, your answer is “Nope”, followed by comments that don’t address the question???

    First he’s heard saying “These assholes always get away,” then he starts pursuing Martin (who tries to avoid Zimmerman, btw).

    Given that, I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that Zimmerman wasn’t chasing Martin in order to invite him over for a friendly cup of tea.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  879. Dave– how do we know Martin was trying to avoid Zimmerman?

    shipwreckedcrew (bafbcb)

  880. You mean, Dave, that you are going to make up stuff some more.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  881. I once hit my head really hard on ice during a hockey practice. No, that is not what is wrong with me! lol

    You could not tell I had an injury, but it was like nothing that has ever happened to me.

    If Z was getting his head slammed, I have no doubt that something inside him told him that this was very serious.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  882. SPQR, THE LIAR: There is no evidence that Martin was the “aggressor” according to Surls … except that is false, as Zimmerman’s statement is “evidence”.

    WHAT I’D ACTUALLY SAID: “I hate to keep beating on a dead horse…but, no witness, other than Zimmerman, has said that Martin was the aggressor.”

    SPQR, lying, as per usual.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  883. Oh good Allah. This is becoming a theatre of the absurd.

    JD (318f81)

  884. What we do know is that Zimmerman told the 911 operator that Martin was running from him.

    You presume that Martin was running away from him in fear.

    Another supposition might be he was trying to escape Zimmerman’s sight so he could attack Zimmerman unseen from behind — which is what Zimmerman also says happened.

    shipwreckedcrew (bafbcb)

  885. Shipwreckedcrew, ah but Dave only “goes out on” his favorite limbs. No one else’s.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  886. 877 elissa…The difference between Miami and Sanford is 223 miles. One wonders who took Mr. Martin to Sanford. There is no mention of a license or car. From the beginning I thought the media made a bug effort to show Zimmerman in the worst possible light and Martin in the best light. It might not look so good to see a bigger, older kid with tats and gold grill or using the available picture of Zimmerman in a suit, smiling. Once again I wonder how this would be reported had the shooter been another black. There is this insistence also that Zimmerman has to be deemed white to prove his racist nature. So when do things actually get resolved? It seems to me anything less than conviction of Zimmerman will raise fears of riots. Where does one find an untainted jury at this point, if he is charged and goes to trial? In any case a pox on the Obama-fellating media, sharpton, jackson and Obama..whether or not Zimmerman is charged.

    Calypso Louis Farrakhan (d32e4c)

  887. You think we can take this to 1000, or are we starting to lose steam?

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  888. “What we do know is that Zimmerman told the 911 operator that Martin was running from him.”

    That’s kind of what it sounds like all right. That’s what it kinda sounds like from media reports of what his girl friend said, as well.

    I suppose everyone could be lying.

    Maybe the kid just decided to go jogging, right when Zimmerman was watching him.

    I doubt it, though.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  889. Hey, I could take it to 2000, but I have other things to do besides listing all of SPQR’s lies, distortion, and misrepresentations.

    I gotta eat sometime.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  890. ______________________________________________

    Circumstances (Zimmerman making a baseless accusation of wrongdoing against Martin, referring to the boy as an “asshole”,

    So does Martin tweeting…

    Plzz shoot da #mf dat lied 2 u!

    …bother you more, or bother you less, than Zimmerman using the word “asshole?”

    There’s the phrase of “you can judge a person’s character by the company he keeps.” How about one of Martin’s buddies tweeting this in memoriam to their fallen pal:

    IMA MISS YU TILL I DIE DOG I KNOW YU WHOOPED HIS ASS DOE.. CUZ I PRAY GOD HELP ME AND WATCH YU LOVE YOU CUZZ REST ETERNALLY.

    Or another one of his buddies tweeting this to Treyvor Martin well before his death…

    Yu ain’t tell me yu swung on a bus driver.

    Yep, uh-huh, the use of “asshole” does make Zimmerman, by comparison, seem quite hostile and hot-headed. What was he thinking?! He should have invited Treyvor over for milk and cookies.

    Mark (31bbb6)

  891. SPQR I have always read your comments with great interest, finding you both obviously knowledgeable and reasonable. Mr Surls is convincing me otherwise… Nah, not really.

    Mr Surls, what is your definition of pursuit? Are you saying Zimmerman was running after Martin after he (Zimmerman) told the 911 dispatcher that Martin was running from him?

    Do you know if anyone has mentioned Zimmerman being hard to understand or out of breath while relaying information to the dispatcher?

    I have personally been involved to one degree or another in hundreds of pursuits, both vehicular and on foot. The one overriding commonality in all of them is how difficult it is to decipher what the pursuer is saying because they are either yelling, speaking too fast or being out of breath.

    I may have missed it, but in all the reporting of this, yours is the only talk of Zimmerman pursuing Martin that I have seen, most of the other is a claim of him following Martin. Is this a deliberate attempt to twist info and spin Zimmerman into being the bad guy?

    A simple word, pursuit, with much harsher sound than follow.

    labcatcher (61737c)

  892. Zimmerman: ‘These assholes always get away’

    Wait, I’ve changed my mind. I now suspect that George Zimmerman realized he was a couple of pounds and decided to go jogging, after reporting to police that a black kid was “up to no good”.

    ‘911 dispatcher: – “Are you following him?”‘

    ‘Zimmerman: – “Yeah.”‘

    Jeez, do I feel stupid. How could I possibly have missed this conclusive evidence that demonstrates, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman wasn’t pursuing Martin?

    He was simply out for an evening run, and Martin just happened to be ahead of him. It’s all so obvious to me…now, that the great legal minds have spoken.

    My bad.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  893. Lets say you are right Dave. We’ll say Z was an overzealous, cop wanna be, possible racist, who got his ass kicked.

    If while Trayvon was mounting him, he went for Z’s gun, none of that matters.

    At that point it was “him or me”. Period.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  894. Dave, once again you didn’t answer the questions, so I ask again:

    Has anyone mentioned that Zimmerman was out of breath or having difficulty talking? How do you come to the conclusion Zimmerman was pusuing/chasing Martin?

    Why use pursue when the Dispatcher used following and got the response of Yeah ? I guarantee that dispatcher know the difference between pursue and follow.

    What I asked is how you came to use pursue as opposed to follow. I never claimed using pursue vs follow was conclusive evidence of anything, that is a faulty conclusion you came to on your own. Re-read what I wrote and let me know where I said it was conclusive evidence of anything.

    Yeah, Yeah, I know. Saying bad things to the dispatcher, following someone while calling the cops to tell them that are following them and misuse of 911 are all indicators of aggression and Zimmerman should burn in hell for them. Those are not illegal, immoral or fattening actions.

    labcatcher (61737c)

  895. Dave, good night, get some sleep, something nutritious to eat and clear your head. You need to take care of yourself. Sleep tight.

    labcatcher (61737c)

  896. I propose the following:

    Dave Surls says: All we know for sure is that Z was following M at some point and then shot M. Z is also a whiner. No, there is no credible witness that said anything about M hitting Z and assaulting Z while he was on the ground. Z had nothing to fear from a bag of skittles. Any serious injury should have been obvious with at least a broken skull, if not brains oozing out (ok, he really didn’t say that part). Z had it coming for daring to follow someone and annoy him because he was concerned as a town watch volunteer. Always trust what 16 yo girlfriends say.

    Everybody else says: But what about the testimony of a witness that backs what Z said and the lack of any witness saying anything else? All Dave has is the assumption that Z continued to follow M and at some point decided to shoot him for not good reason- there is no witness or evidence for this. And, you don’t need to see blood to have a fatal closed head injury. and, you don’t have to wait until you are almost dead before you act in self defense.

    Let’s repeat this 3,000 times and claim the record for the longest PP thread, and await if any new and important information appears.

    As nk said about 2 million comments ago, it is sad a teen is dead, it is sad everybody is errupting in hate instead of reason, everybody wishes it didn’t happen. (Though the argument could be made that some will be disappointed if Z isn’t sacrificed on some altar).

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  897. “Saying bad things to the dispatcher, following someone while calling the cops to tell them that are following them and misuse of 911 are all indicators of aggression…”

    Yeah, that seems pretty obvious to me.

    “and Zimmerman should burn in hell for them. Those are not illegal, immoral or fattening actions.”

    I didn’t say that, though he does appear to be doing things that are not exactly legal.

    “What I asked is how you came to use pursue as opposed to follow”

    Well, when you say something like “These assholes always get away” and then start going after someone, I’m going to leap to the (totally warranted) conclusion that you’re trying to catch them.

    “Dave, good night”

    And, to you.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  898. “Dave Surls says: All we know for sure is that Z was following M at some point and then shot M.”

    I think we know these things, given the current state of the information.

    “Z is also a whiner.”

    Matter of opinion. I’m inclined to think he’s a bit of a whiner.

    “No, there is no credible witness that said anything about M hitting Z and assaulting Z while he was on the ground.”

    Incorrect. Yes, there is such a witness.

    “Z had nothing to fear from a bag of skittles.”

    Can’t argue with that one.

    “Any serious injury should have been obvious with at least a broken skull, if not brains oozing out (ok, he really didn’t say that part).”

    Well, he doesn’t appear to have been seriously injured.

    “Z had it coming for daring to follow someone and annoy him”

    I’ll agree with that, though the law might not. But, IMO, they have a highly selective way of enforcing the law down there.

    “because he was concerned as a town watch volunteer.”

    No.

    “Always trust what 16 yo girlfriends say.”

    Always take what they say with a grain of salt, in situations like this. She definitely has a horse in this race.

    Hopefully, that clarifies my actual positions.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  899. “I think we know these things, given the current state of the information.”

    Clarification: It looks like those things are correct (and some other things), but that might change, if and when, further information comes out.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  900. Icy, you don’t believe gf’s statement because she has an agenda but Zimmerman doesn’t? uh yeh
    Comment by tifosa — 3/29/2012 @ 12:50 pm

    – About Zimmerman’s statement, I said WHAT?
    Comment by Icy — 3/29/2012 @ 1:30 pm

    #824 Icy did you? see the “?”
    Comment by tifosa — 3/29/2012 @ 3:09 pm

    — Yes. And I also saw the “uh yeh” that followed. Are you saying that you weren’t making a sarcastic assumption that I accept Zimmerman’s statement at face value?

    Icy (ef96c5)

  901. And, no, I’m not making things up.
    Comment by Dave Surls — 3/29/2012 @ 6:44 pm

    — No one doubts that you believe everything you write.

    I could well be wrong about some things (I know a lot, but not everything), but I do not make things up, despite SPQR’s absurd allegations about what I do.
    Comment by Dave Surls — 3/29/2012 @ 6:50 pm

    — The spirit of Milhouse is never too far away.

    Icy (ef96c5)

  902. Several questions I need answers to:

    1) When was the break in the NBA basketball game?

    If Travon Martin really did walk all the way to the 7 Eleven shown on the map on page 4 of the Sunday March 25, 2012 New York Post where is he supposed to have gone (while I am not sure of the scale of the map – really a labeled Google Earth satellite picture Copyright 2009) it should have taken him about 45 minutes to walk there and come back.

    George Zimmerman first spotted him at about 7:07 PM. When was the break in the basketball game?

    2) Did George Zimmerman ever speak to Travon Martin around the time he called police? I was working on the assumption he did. This is another assumption I absorbed that may be wrong.

    3) Is this John (comment 17) a legitimate witness?

    “The guy on the bottom, who I believe had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help, help.’ I told him to stop, I was calling 911,” John told the TV station. Zimmerman was wearing red.

    “When I got upstairs and looked down, the person that was on top beating up the other guy was laying in the grass. And I believe he was dead at that point

    Problems with this:

    A) In the police car, George Zimmerman said nobody came.

    B) John does not report hearing a gun shot but only seeing someone laying down on the ground.

    C) I don’t think somebody like this made a 911 call. Of course John doesn’t say he made that call.

    D) Why is John so sure he is dead?

    E) John doesn’t acknowledge (in this excerpt at least) any regrets and treats telling him “Stop yelling, I’m calling 911!” like a reasonable thing to say. That doesn’t sound like it is a very serious fight, and George can wait.

    Now of course it could be only some elements of the story are wrong. John says he spoke to George Zimmerman (maybe George didn’t hear him, or he didn’t or even with it he still would have said nobody came)

    Sammy Finkelman (5736b6)

  903. The New York Post map should be here:

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/what_happened_that_night_XIbvbxgyNIfuqpjDIseFrK?utm_medium=rss&utm_content=National

    …but I can’t find the actual picture. The entire “story”is a graphic.

    The date is right.

    Sammy Finkelman (5736b6)

  904. “A) In the police car, George Zimmerman said nobody came.”

    Well, they didn’t. They all hid in their houses.

    That’s about the only thing that makes me feel sorry for Zimmerman.

    The guy might be a nutball, but it also seems that he did things that were motivated by a desire to help his neighbors.

    Then, when he was in trouble…they wouldn’t take the risk to help him.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  905. enjoy teh stumble
    right of entry is denied
    I work here is done

    Colonel Haiku (62337d)

  906. “President Obama has fanned the flames of hatred in the Trayvon Martin case, and has not said a single critical word about the outrageous actions of the New Black Panthers, who offered a $10,000 bounty on George Zimmerman–the same New Black Panthers on whose behalf Eric Holder quashed a federal criminal prosecution; or of Spike Lee, who tweeted a wrong address for Zimmerman, presumably to facilitate harassment or even murder; or of the many liberals who have posted on the @killzimmerman Twitter feed; or of the many other Democrats and liberals who have indulged in an orgy of hate with respect to Mr. Zimmerman. President Obama’s interest in the victims of violence is selective: he cares if they look like the hypothetical son he doesn’t have.”

    – John Hinderaker

    Colonel Haiku (62337d)

  907. You know the Baily News are the worse kind of bottom dwelling slug, don’t you Dave,

    narciso (6db04f)

  908. “No, there is no credible witness that said anything about M hitting Z and assaulting Z while he was on the ground.”
    Incorrect. Yes, there is such a witness.

    Glad to have that cleared up, it seemed to me that you previously discounted the existence of any evidence for Z’s story.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  909. “Everybody else says: But what about the testimony of a witness that backs what Z said and the lack of any witness saying anything else?”

    Which witness saw T following/jumping Z?

    tifosa (bb3cf2)

  910. You know who would have had great insight on this topic? Random…

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  911. ____________________________________________

    Then, when he was in trouble…they wouldn’t take the risk to help him.

    What really irritates me about such people is if they also are the same ones who’ll give lots of benefit of the doubt to a Treyvon Martin but far less, or not any at all, to a George Zimmerman. Worse of all is when these same people will be among the first to pick up and move out of a community when troublemakers (eg, graffiti “artists”) and crimes start to become an issue.

    The epitome of me that are people like the guy now occupying the White House or the millions of public school teachers — who quietly endorse private or parochial schools — throughout urban America, who immediately will take the side of a Henry Louis Gates (vs a cop in Cambridge, Massachusetts) or a Treyvon Martin. They’ll express astonishment and resentment towards what they perceive as a rush to negatively judge a Treyvon Martin, while in general they’ll do everything possible to avoid sending their children to schools full of students who have the pockmarked history of wannabe-gangstas (eg, apparently Trevyon Martin).

    Mark (31bbb6)

  912. NBA All-Star game start time was 7:00 pm EST, meaning tip-off was probably around 7:10. Not quite consistent with the family’s story. Seems like Martin wasn’t even home when the All-Star game came on.

    shipwreckedcrew (e57b7e)

  913. @928, he was dead by 7:18. Early reports said he went to 7-11 during a break in the game, but clearly that was simply incorrect guessing by someone; it was before the game started that he left. where is the 7-11 video? don’t all 7-11’s have cameras?

    @914 – I’ve seen someone say the Zimmerman call to 911 was at approximately 7:12? It was around four minutes long. The first 911 calls from neighbors came w/in 2 minutes of george hanging up. police arrive (office ayala first) on the scene during some of the 911 neighbor calls – by 7:18. zimmerman was at police headquarters before 8pm.

    next piece of useful evidence i’d like to see is voice recognition reports when they are done. they could corroborate zimmerman’s story that he yelled for help. I could see how zimmerman could have cried for help at some point, no matter how the altercation started, if trayvon started to get the upper hand. but if zimmerman didn’t cry for help, though, that would damage the credibility of his account substantially.

    milowent (be890a)

  914. correction to above post: officer smith was first on scene. ayala 2nd.

    milowent (be890a)

  915. The guy might be a nutball, but it also seems that he did things that were motivated by a desire to help his neighbors.

    Then, when he was in trouble…they wouldn’t take the risk to help him.

    Comment by Dave Surls

    I’d like to put the focus on this one tragedy aside and think about that.

    I think if you’re going on patrol of some kind, or if you’re going to intervene, at the very least, use the buddy system. Everyone should have at least one neighbor they could call if they just needed another set of eyes.

    If Obama really needs to opine on this incident, I’d like to see his community organizing bona fides come out with some intelligent comments encouraging community watch, and some pointers on how to do it safely and effectively.

    Dustin (330eed)

  916. I will transmit this information to Vladimir…

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  917. “You know the Baily News are the worse kind of bottom dwelling slug, don’t you Dave,”

    They are part of the media. No denying that.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  918. 928. Comment by shipwreckedcrew — 3/30/2012 @ 10:42 am

    NBA All-Star game start time was 7:00 pm EST, meaning tip-off was probably around 7:10. Not quite consistent with the family’s story.

    They might have given this time because they didn’t know, at the start, when he was killed. But that also means they didn’t know when he slipped out. Or it could be we are talking about another television show – a pre-game show maybe. For sure, though, we can get no help in the chrono,ogy from teh family and we have nothing sourced so far that shows where he went. I saw one newspaper that mentioned there are several 7 Elevens nearby which means nobody gave taht person a location. However, the New York Post Sunday did have a location, and it is about amile away. Maybe that’s the nearest one.

    I had thought they wouldn’t say it unless this was checked out, either by a sales receipt or a witness – that it was one fact accepted by everybody. But it seems not so.

    The uncle said ice cream not ice tea by the way. What he purchased may have been changed to something that something that could have been consumed on the spot.

    Seems like Martin wasn’t even home when the All-Star game came on.

    If we have the schedule right. Is it on line somewhere?

    One question: What is wrong with all the newspapers and televisons stations in the country that nobody checks this out?

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  919. Shameless OT: Keith Olbermann got fired . . . again.

    Icy (ef96c5)

  920. And they hired Client #9 (E. Spitzer). I guess Current TV is down-current from MSNBC and CNN.

    BfC (fd87e7)

  921. Shameless OT: Keith Olbermann got fired . . . again.

    Comment by Icy

    Stunning news.

    OK, not really.

    Dustin (330eed)

  922. Map of the area by the New York Post: (using real life 2009 satellite picture)

    http://i41.tinypic.com/miyw7b.jpg

    Google map:

    http://tinypic.com/r/30hy9fn/5

    Interesting, the human test for the first one was “dead man’s hand” and for the second was
    “run amok”

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  923. 929 Comment by milowent — 3/30/2012 @ 11:46 am

    @928, he was dead by 7:18.

    No, he was not.

    Approximate timeline:

    7:05-7:08 George Zimmerman spots Travon Martin

    7:09-7:13 George Zimmerman’s call to police. It starts being logged at 7:11

    7:17 – First policeman dispatched to the scene.

    7:20 George Zimmerman stops to place a phone call but his phone is knocked away by Travon Martin and their physical struggle begins (a failed call happened at that time)

    7:22-7:23 – Gunshot

    7:24 Officer Timothy Smith arrives

    7:25 Office Roicardo Ayala, who had been redirected from his original destination, arrives

    7:26-7:30 rescue work on Tracvon Martin

    7:30 Travon Martin pronounced dead.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  924. And they hired Client #9 (E. Spitzer). I guess Current TV is down-current from MSNBC and CNN.
    Comment by BfC — 3/30/2012 @ 2:28 pm

    — Exchanging one shameless whoremonger for another.

    Icy (ef96c5)

  925. I am sure it was just a Fluke.

    BfC (fd87e7)

  926. 920. President Obama has fanned the flames of hatred…and has not said a single critical word….

    – John Hindericker

    The first is not quite true – he’s tried to benefit from it, but has not actually fanned the flames himself.. Bobby Rush, by the way, is the person whom he failed to defeat in a primary in the year 2000, although there’s nothing I read that he actually said a word about the kind of person Bobby Rush was. Mostly, Bobby Rush stood in the way of his advancement, but he was able to get to the United States Senate anyway, in a single jump from the Illinois State Senate.

    Now if other people fanning flames of hatred redounds to his benefit – well, he’s not going to destroy something that could help him, even more he’s not going to disappoint enthusiastic voters.

    To actually fan the flames of hatred himself would be counterproductive, and he may not even like the issue because it’s difficult to play it safe and finesse it but he will attempt it.

    So he’s telling people he has to be careful etc. If people think George Zimmerman’s guilt is as obvious as that of Charles Manson, but that he can’t say it, he can only say that if he had a son (he might have been the victim – left unsaid)

    All that is fine with him, even though he has to know it’s not clear.

    He’s not saying: No need for concern: I will assure justice is done and there is no coverup. Black people can certainly trust me on that.

    That would quiet things down. He can’t say that because he’s knows George Zimmerman in all probability is not going to be charged with anything – neither can he cause a political prosecution to be brought if he were even willing t do so. It would be wrong and besides it would be political and legally dangerous and he doesn’t need that kind of headache

    He did say, or rather make it known that the FBI is on the case. But not that there is no need for concern, so later it could be people would think: The FBI’s been outwitted or the law is bad..</i

    The second part is very true. He has not said a single word to counteract anything.

    nor of Spike Lee, who tweeted a wrong address for Zimmerman, presumably to facilitate harassment or even murder

    – John Hindericker

    Actually, to facilitate self-righteousness, in a few cases maybe including picketing the house. If anything ever actually were to happen, the self-righteousness probably could not be maintained.

    Sammy Finkelman (5736b6)

  927. You know, Dustin, does the truth matter anymore, about Zimmerman’s injury, his 9/11 call, Haley’s
    probity, apparently Fitsnews, punked everyone from
    the Daily Caller to Yahoo News,

    narciso (6db04f)

  928. “Glad to have that cleared up, it seemed to me that you previously discounted the existence of any evidence for Z’s story.”

    I’ve said about a zillion times that the witness saw two guys fighting and that it looked like Martin was getting the better of it…but, that doesn’t support Zimmerman’s claim that Martin was the aggressor.

    Unfortunately (IMO, unfortunately), it looks like, under Florida law it doesn’t matter much who started it (unless the person who kills is committing a felony). As long as Zimmerman has reason to fear death or great bodily harm, he can still kill Martin, even if Zimmerman was the aggressor.

    Personally, I’m not buying Zimmerman’s claim that he feared for his life (based on what I know), but the authorities or a jury might.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  929. I don’t know how many people looked at the links at #924, 937, and 947 (thanks folks). In addition, there is this:
    http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2012/03/31/trayvon-videoscreencap-shows-laceration-to-george-zimmermans-head/

    IF it can be shown that various media outlets knowingly released edited, “doctored”, or substandard audio and video clips that inflame public opinion against Zimmerman, any possibility for criminal charges or civil claims against such organizations/people involved?

    Freedom of the press should not include the ability to promote violence and civil unrest (hey, we can make it a chant, “Freedom of the press, doesn’t mean civil unrest!!”)

    When we have a situation where the president is in effect allowing, if not encouraging, racial tension to build, in conjunction with a press that misinforms (willfully?) to add to it as well, things are really pretty bad.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  930. So what happened to the Ice Tea and the Skittles? Were they found at the scene?

    It seems that Trayvon was left home alone at the girfriend’s home while his father and his girfriend went out to dinner and to watch the NBA Game.

    If all the action happened between 7 PM and 7:17 PM, then Treyvon was missing the big game.

    Also if Trayvon was on the phone with his girfriend at 7:12 and he was 100 yards from the front door of the townhome, how was a fit 17 year old that is 6ft tall and 160 pounds as indicated in the Coronor’s report, unable to make it to the door.

    Joe

    Joe Smith (54c0c1)

  931. Oh by the way there does not need to be any physical harm to George, he just has to fear for his life. So he can use deadly force before he is beaten by an possibly angry 17 year old 6 foot black youth that weighs 160 pounds according the the medical report.

    Hey for all we know, Treyvon hit George in the face with the Ice Tea Can!

    Joe

    Joe

    Joe Smith (54c0c1)

  932. Could we possibly get a real recent photo of Treyvon from this year. Who just happned to have an issue with authoriy since he was suspended in Feb. for 10 days for having a baggie with MJ residule and a MJ pipe in his school bag. That’s what lead his father to take to to Sanford whie he visited his girfriend.

    Joe

    Joe Smith (54c0c1)

  933. As to the racial profiling of Trayvon this the the actual text of the 911 exchange about the “black individual”.

    You will notice the 911 Operator gives Zimmerman a couple of choices to choose from to describe the person that he sees walking slowly in the rain.

    Zimmerman: “This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.”

    911 operator: “Okay. And this guy, is he white black or Hispanic?”

    Zimmerman: “He looks black.”

    Joe

    Joe Smith (54c0c1)

  934. Personally, I’m not buying Zimmerman’s claim that he feared for his life (based on what I know)…

    Interesting, since you don’t “know” anything to refute his claim.

    SPQR (86008e)

  935. I’m confused about the origin about the Skittles and Iced Tea story. If Trayvon’s father and his girlfriend were out for dinner, how did they know what Trayvon was doing? Did he call them? Did it come from his girlfriend way after the fact?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  936. Joe brings up a good point:
    According to both Zimmerman and Martin’s girlfriend, he started running; a physically fit football player who was very close to his fathers house… Outrunning a heavier, older, not-physically fit man…

    If he didn’t run home, where was he going? The fact that he didn’t run home, is it relevant? I mean, when I’m in a strange neighborhood and some guy yells, “hey, what are you doing?” my first instinct is to break into a sprint and take off. Especially when I’m not doing anything except munching on my skittles.

    Charlie Sheen (6f9de7)

  937. Dammit. Sock off.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  938. ‘”What do the police find in his pocket? Skittles,” Crump said. “A can of Arizona ice tea in his jacket pocket and Skittles in his front pocket for his brother Chad.”‘–Reuters

    Crump is representing Martin’s family in this matter. Hopefully, he’s smart enough not to make up stuff.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  939. “Outrunning a heavier, older, not-physically fit man…”

    First of all, Zimmerman appears to have been in his car for most of the chase. Second of all, judging from the video taken at the cop shop, he appears to be fairly fit…not to mention pretty much uninjured.

    I don’t think that I would jump to the conclusion that he was out of shape, though I would be inclined to believe that he’s not much of a fist fighter.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  940. http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/2706141/trayvon-martins-shooter-had-a.html

    Zimmerman probably should have stuck to duking it out with women. That way he’s got a fighting chance of not getting his ass kicked.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  941. Jesus Dave, the Miami herald article is all he said/she said, and he said she did a LOT worse to him.

    “Duking it out with women…” that’s what you call it when a crazy b***h takes a baseball bat to you?

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  942. Poor old George, he’s always being attacked by people.

    If it’s not baseball bat armed girl friends, then it’s badge armed policemen, or skittle armed teenagers.

    He’s had a tough life.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  943. Wow, bro. You’ve got a twisted view of the world. Guy gets attacked with a baseball bat, and he’s the abuser, guy gets into a tussle with plain clothes “officers” and he’s assaulting cops, gets his nose broken, and he’s a racist murderer.

    When does Trayvon’s past get looked at with this much scrutiny from you? If he had killed Zimmerman, would he still be an innocent skittle eating youth?

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  944. Dave–according to Insty both nbc and abc have been caught selectively editing the 911 tapes for public airing in a very dishonest way. That’s rather troublesome n’est ce pas? Does it at all make you wonder what else has been wrongly reported or may have been misrepresented with respect to the Trayvon case? Do you think maybe it’s getting past time to kill off this thread and let the real investigators take over from the amateur sleuths, conjecturers and baiters? None of us outside observers really know what happened that night do we? None of us are privy to what is in the medical/autopsy files are we? And that includes you, doesn’t it Dave? Be honest, now.

    elissa (cd1133)

  945. Here is a photo of Trayvon M. from ~June of 2010 (assuming date is correct–possibly as late as 2011).

    BfC (fd87e7)

  946. – The spirit of Milhouse is never too far away.
    Comment by Icy — 3/30/2012 @ 2:27 am

    Yeah, those internet connections problems have been pretty persistent. 😉

    Stashiu3 (cd7afe)

  947. “‘He Looks Black’: NBC Launches Internal Investigation into Selective Editing of Zimmerman Police Tape”

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/he-looks-black-nbc-launches-internal-investigation-into-selective-editing-of-zimmerman-police-tape/

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  948. tiffy hardest hit.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  949. They have no intention, of allowing an impartial investigation, they are determined to hang Zimmerman, scuttle SYG, incite riots if necessary, how many clues to figure this out,

    narciso (099a7b)

  950. It’s looking more and more like Zimmerman is in deep poo. His story is getting contradicted every time a new piece of evidence comes out. The real question where will all the tribalist race dividers go once their love affair with Zimmerman is over? A lot of people are gonna have to face are facts about themselves and their behavior, or maybe they’ll just go away? Will be interesting….

    Ryan (8c9596)

  951. I think Ryan got the names mixed up. =/

    Noodles (3681c4)

  952. Nope. Y’all Zimmerman lovers jumped into fast telling everyone what happened before any actual facts were out. It was an emotional reaction based on ur tribalism. And in doing so it is looking like you have most thoroughly beclowned yourselves.

    Ryan (8c9596)

  953. DS comes across as a real cracker pu$$y. Doesn’t matter what the facts turn out to be, he’s invested in the young Jesus Trayvon being a sweet, innocent abused by the system vicim of whitey . Perhaps the neo-Jesus will rise from the dead Easter Sunday?

    Calypso Louis Farrakhan (d32e4c)

  954. This thread is just going around in circles now. If the MSM hadn’t faked/ exaggerated for effect, I wouldn’t be thinking they NEEDED to.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  955. The businesses in Sanford, Florida, are suffering from the combination of the shooting, protests, and Sharpton’s demand that Zimmerman be arrested. But the real story was today’s strange media-bashing press conference in Sanford with Sharpton and the NAACP President:

    The NAACP preceded its march today for Trayvon Martin with a fascinating news conference in Sanford.
    ***
    [NAACP President Ben] Jealous said that the Rev. Al Sharpton had never called for a boycott, and Sharpton shook his head in agreement. Jealous asked the media “to put to rest any rumor that there is any discussion about any boycott of this community.”

    But the news conference illustrated how a message can get garbled, especially when two high-profile people are talking.

    In response to a reporter’s question, Sharpton said he was not talking about a Sanford boycott but he was talking about “those businesses that are financing the campaign” on the stand your ground law.

    Those comments seemed to fluster Jealous, who was determined to end the confusion. “But to be clear, this community is off the table,” Jealous said.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the Sanford residents call for Zimmerman’s arrest just to stop the economic meltdown, especially now that 2 voice experts say the cries for help did not come from Zimmerman.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  956. A lot of assumptions you have there Ryan.

    I am willing to change my views if the facts change, but they seem to be going in the opposite direction you are claiming.

    Tribalism? CODES WORDS OMG OMG!

    Noodles (3681c4)

  957. Oh it’s circles all right. The Zimmerman lovers have thoroughly revealed themselves and now must deal with the consequences. It’s not pretty .

    Ryan (8c9596)

  958. The pressure may also be getting to the Florida special prosecutor, who says she may not need the grand jury called for April 10. I’m not sure which side that favors.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  959. Not really assumptions noodles. But I enjoy watching someone project while self-beclowning.

    Ryan (8c9596)

  960. Ryan may be correct. If Obama is the Messiah and says if he had a son he’d look like Trayvon, then ergo the Jesus Trayvon IS the son of the narcissist Messiah Urkel. So Zimmerman must be a racist and cold-blooded killer. Amazing how many people continue to have their heads stuck permanently far up Obama’s anus. Btw, I read that the self-ordained Rev. Sharpton is having grave financial difficulties. Note all the unreported recent killings of actually innocent black bystanders by black thugs. Crickets from the Obama media and the black grievance camps.Why bother with a show trial at all for Zimmerman? The media and the rabid racist black clergy want George dead to advance their agendas. Perhaps Zimmerman will just off himself for their satisfaction?

    Calypso Louis Farrakhan (d32e4c)

  961. Oh and tribalism isn’t a code word. I mean it literally. The Zimmerman lovers are tribalists.

    Ryan (8c9596)

  962. Calypso, do tinfoil hats itch? Just wondering….

    Ryan (8c9596)

  963. Ryan is a serial troll. Wait til it starts in on the joooooo hate. He apparently hates Hispanics too.

    JD (318f81)

  964. Ryan – what does your hatred taste like?

    JD (318f81)

  965. Drj, there are two sides: tribalists who defend Zimmerman, and those who want justice whatever it may turn out to be. It’s looking more and more like justice means bad news for Zimmerman, but we shall see.

    Ryan (8c9596)

  966. Y’all Zimmerman lovers jumped into fast telling everyone what happened before any actual facts were out.

    If that isn’t projection, idk what is.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  967. JD. Angry you picked the loser to love and have now beclowned your sad sack self? I know that must smart, but don’t take it out on me.

    Ryan (8c9596)

  968. Is this elf radio, or merely yelverton .

    narciso (099a7b)

  969. Yeah, wasn’t that long ago Trayvon was barely a teenager, a model student and citizen and was shot on his dad’s porch

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  970. Noodles, I don’t support Trayvon either. I want justice to prevail, that is all. I don’t want to belittle a dead child, nor a fat Latino. So no, you are completely wrong (which I guess you are used to by now)

    Ryan (8c9596)

  971. Yeah, you seem like you are just quietly taking all the facts in. Good for you!

    Noodles (3681c4)

  972. The tribe of Male (50% of country), 1/2 Jewish (2.1% of US population), 1/2 Peruvian (0.14% from Peru in US), Democratic Voters (31% of US voting adults)here (estimated demographic total=0.147% of US population–In Seminole county FL, 1.5% are mixed race)?

    Wow–I did not realize that Patterico skewed to such a small demographic.

    BfC (fd87e7)

  973. idk narsiso, but

    ==The Zimmerman lovers have thoroughly revealed themselves and now must deal with the consequences. It’s not pretty==

    sounds kind of threaty. The proprietor of this blog puts up with a lot from trolls but usually frowns on that sort of thing. I guess we’ll see.

    elissa (cd1133)

  974. http://twitter.com/#!/REALZimmerman

    I am 94 percent sure this is a troll account.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  975. You’ve only threatened yourselves with having to face yourselves. And y’all ain’t pretty. Id feel sad for ya if it wasn’t just so damn satisfying.

    Ryan (8c9596)

  976. BfC not that specific. Just generalized, emotional, divisive tribalism.

    Ryan (8c9596)

  977. Ryan, are you single? There is a girl that comes around here you might be interested in.

    *it will help if you have chanted “MIC CHECK” a few times in your life (and not in a mocking way)

    Noodles (3681c4)

  978. Noodles, let’s stick to the topic at hand and not be dishonorable and just post vague comments about others. Ok?

    Or take the dishonorable road, I guess you might as well double down. Lol

    God I love this!

    Ryan (8c9596)

  979. The real question where will all the tribalist race dividers go once their love affair with Zimmerman is over?

    Oh my god, Ryan, you are an idiot and I am at the end of my tether with dolts like you spouting off such inconsistent nonsense. Stop it.

    If you took the time to read this humongous thread, you would see that the readers here have no vested interest in either Zimmerman or Martin or their race; rather what has been and continues to be of greatest concern is looking at the facts as they come to light and determining their impact.

    You have made a completely inaccurate assessment of readers here and it certainly is projection. It reflects very poorly on you. You see, race in and of itself doesn’t matter to us one whit; clearly though it matters to others, including our president, the the media, and you. How about focusing on the facts as we know them and stop accusing people of something so insidious as “tribalist race dividers”.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  980. lol, you all but called any who thinks Zimmerman acted in self defense a racist.

    This isn’t the comment section of YT. Everyone reading this knows what your game is.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  981. A (mostly?) conservative blog that is backing a minority that is registered Democratic and of a minority background that tends to vote Democrat.

    BfC (fd87e7)

  982. Ryan:

    I don’t want to belittle a dead child, nor a fat Latino.

    I’m so glad you don’t believe in belittling people.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  983. Sorry, bad sentence.

    In short, you are a troll.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  984. Dana:

    Oh my god, Ryan, you are an idiot and I am at the end of my tether with dolts like you spouting off such inconsistent nonsense. Stop it.

    Okay, now I’m literally laughing out loud. You’re awesome, Dana, and what a day.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  985. Drj, yeah Dana amused me too!

    Ryan (8c9596)

  986. Even tifosa argues her points and sometimes backs some of it up with some mention of facts at least.

    What have you got to offer Ryan? You haven’t even made anyone mad yet.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  987. Ryan, do you have any expertise in the healthcare field or are you, or have you ever been, a senior executive with a very very lucrative career?

    elissa (cd1133)

  988. Noodles, you know that white power groups posted those fake photos of Trayvon don’t you? You know it was a neonate white power group that claimed to hack Tray’s twitter and FB? Don’t you know these things?

    Actually I don’t say the Zimmerman lovers are racists, THEY say it themselves. I think it’s more a simplified form of tribalism. But I’m a nice guy and give the benefit of the doubt to often, so who knows…..

    Ryan (8c9596)

  989. Elissa, healthcare? No. I own 2 companies and do very well, thanks for asking. But why is that relevant here?

    Ryan (8c9596)

  990. I don’t know anything about that. But what would that mean anyway? Oh, in your mind it would make anyone who thinks Z acted in self-defense racist. lol

    I did hear that MMFA said some pictures were fake and they turned out to be real, so there is that.

    I haven’t seen anyone comment here that seemed racist. Have you read the 1000 comments yet. Check them out yourself.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  991. And yes, your tribal term is code.

    You are not acting in good faith, so I have to assume that.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  992. Inside joke Ryan. Just checking to see if you have any familiarity with this site in general or with the people who comment here. You’ve answered that question. Thanks.

    elissa (cd1133)

  993. We’ll I gotta go, I’m in a big bike race!

    Don’t surf those White Power websites to late tonight Ryan, I’m sure you have church in the morning.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  994. And I know that a Black Power group has wanted Dead or Alive posters with a $10,000 reward.

    So?

    BfC (fd87e7)

  995. At least we broke a thousand…

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  996. ==Even tifosa argues her points and sometimes backs some of it up==

    Aw noodles– down deep you’re just a sentimental old thing, aren’tcha?

    elissa (cd1133)

  997. Elissa, I read through the comments here, nowhere else. I don’t know are care at all about this site. I came here to see loads of losers doubling down on their failed Zimmerman love (amusement) and to see how they were dealing with the fact that their hero is looking really bad, as are some of his most ardent supporters (curiosity). So far I have been well amused, though it is tempered by the reality that most here are still doubling down on their divisive tribalist nature. But hey, people will be people…..

    Ryan (e4837b)

  998. Tennessee clown, not Willie the racist hilljack.

    People called William, Willie, Bill, and Ryan are disproportionately idiots. And liars. This one is performance art. And it is arguing with the caricatures it holds in it’s pointy head.

    JD (318f81)

  999. DRJ,

    Honestly, how much stoopid can a person take in a day?!

    I’ll share this amusing moment: I was up on the Central California coast this week staying at a charming B&B. We were seated at the long breakfast table next to a young couple from Northern California, new law grads who were discussing the 2nd day of Supreme Court oral arguments in massive amounts of newly acquired legalese and lofty opinions. They looked at those around them with a tad of smug pity as clearly we were not lawyers and could not grasp the context of their discussion. Understanding they were young and very green in law and in life, it was not insulting, just sort of cute.

    Anyway, the B&B hostess asked them where they were from. The husband was from California and the wife from out of state. The wife then told the table how they had driven down from San Francisco, yet was still upset that because her husband had an expired license and she had to do all the driving. To top it off, he had apparently assured her that driving the coastline would be a fairly straight line to drive and beautiful to look at. However, much to her chagrin, the reality it was anything *but* – the straight line coast is instead a narrow two-lane highway fraught with hairpin turns, steep cliffs, and the inevitable speedster tailgating while being stuck crawling behind a massive RV. .

    I smiled but resisted asking her embarrassed hub if, in all his impressive studies, had never, ever looked at a map of California….heh.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  1000. Noodles, wondered how long till the loser would leave. You left pretty fast though. I guess truth stings?

    Ryan (e4837b)

  1001. Bfc, exactly. So?

    Ryan (e4837b)

  1002. Comment by elissa — 3/31/2012 @ 8:42 pm

    I’m not old! =)

    Ryan, I’m not actually in a big bike race (any Kids in the Hall fans?), I’m just done talking to you.

    Ghost, could you please inform Ryan that he is being shunned? lol

    Noodles (3681c4)

  1003. Name one person who called Zimmerman a hero, and didn’t do it sarcastically. Don’t worry, I’ll wait.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  1004. Noodles – good luck

    JD (318f81)

  1005. Fair enough noodles, see I once again give too much benefit of the doubt. I’m just too nice. Turns out you’re cowardly AND childish. Too bad you can’t learn. Well, maybe you can we’ll see…

    Ryan (e4837b)

  1006. Ghost, what is Zimmerman to you?

    Ryan (e4837b)

  1007. I would, but I don’t think he’d get it.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  1008. Un-shun. Yeah, that sounds good. Re-shun.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  1009. What is the Pythagorean theorem to you?

    I asked you first. Name one person who called Zimmerman a hero.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  1010. The Pythagorean theorem is a theorem in geometry regarding the sides of 2d triangles. When u see Zimmerman’s photo Ghost do you feel warm inside? Just curious.

    Ryan (e4837b)

  1011. L’Hommedieu

    JD (318f81)

  1012. Funny, folks. We had “Bill,” who came out of the box as knowing more than everyone and insulting folks here.

    He goes away.

    Then we have “Ryan.” Same MO. Only difference is unusual capitalization patterns.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  1013. Oh I’m just insulting the Zimmerman lovers. But the truth insults them, so what can I do?

    Ryan (e4837b)

  1014. Insulting people he cannot identify.

    Murfreesboro produces serious krazy.

    JD (318f81)

  1015. Well Goldberg’s site points out ‘Marc’ is also from Murfreesboro, although not the same as Yelverton,

    narciso (099a7b)

  1016. I apologize for joking at your expense, Ryan, but this has been an unusual day commenting here. As for your tribalism theme, I hope you aren’t saying we’re racists but if so, I also hope you will reconsider. I think people that frequent this website have opinions about the Trayvon Martin case, just as they do at other websites and in real life. But the focus here seems to be on analyzing the available evidence and sharing our opinions about what it means.

    If you read the comments to this thread, you will see there are a wide range of opinions represented. If I had to summarize them, I would say everyone wants a full investigation that will reveal the truth, no matter who it hurts or benefits.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  1017. The proprietor of this blog puts up with a lot from trolls but usually frowns on that sort of thing. I guess we’ll see.
    Comment by elissa — 3/31/2012 @ 8:10 pm

    I’ve got three more pages to get through, but it is looking like Ryan may need moderation. We’ll see.

    Stashiu3 (cd7afe)

  1018. No way this Twitter account is real.

    George Zimmerman ‏ @REALZimmerman
    I have the greatest supporters in the world! 2 days ago I was gonna kill myself. Now I found love. #REALZimmerman

    Noodles (3681c4)

  1019. Listen seacrest, you don’t just come in here, spout off accusations, and declare yourself a winner. No one has called him a hero. You’re a f__kin liar and a bad one at that.

    Go back to spanking it to Jonas Bros fanfic, you mental midget.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  1020. Drj, again, I was targeting the Zimmerman lovers. Lots of comments on here from people that don’t fit that label. And thus I am not even addressing them.

    Stashiu3: only truth is a real threat, and only that would need moderating.

    Ryan (e4837b)

  1021. Go back to spanking it to Jonas Bros fanfic, you mental midget

    He is more into BBW anime with cat ears

    JD (318f81)

  1022. Now speaking of moderation, ghost might be a candidate. Poor Zimmerman lover is all angry and rude. Facing that you’ve publicly beclowned yourself does that to folks.

    Ryan (e4837b)

  1023. L’Hommedieu ran out of jooooooooos to threaten and insult, so you have to cut him some slack. He is frustrated.

    JD (318f81)

  1024. Or maybe JD, he isn’t even making sense. But I say let them all speak. Hopefully it’s carthritic

    [note: released from moderation. –Stashiu]

    Ryan (e4837b)

  1025. This all sounds quite familiar, JD. Thoughts?

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  1026. It does display the same level of cluelessness, mixed with invective, mostly cluelessness,

    narciso (099a7b)

  1027. Noodles, wondered how long till the loser would leave. You left pretty fast though. I guess truth stings?
    Comment by Ryan — 3/31/2012 @ 8:45 pm

    Welcome to moderation. I’m still not done, but you contribute nothing.

    Stashiu3 (cd7afe)

  1028. Only reason to censor is you don’t like what I’m saying. I had no opinion of u or this site, but I’m forming one. Will u be moderating out Ghost and JD’s comments? (again, I say let us all speak)

    [note: released from moderation. –Stashiu]

    Ryan (e4837b)

  1029. Coming from someone who uses “ur” instead of that ever so difficult “you’re,” and thinks “beclowned” is a word… I’ll stand by my original sentiment.

    Ghost (6f9de7)

  1030. Stashiu3: only truth is a real threat, and only that would need moderating.
    Comment by Ryan — 3/31/2012 @ 9:18 pm

    I call bullshit and now am sure I made the right decision.

    Stashiu3 (cd7afe)

  1031. But Stashiu3! The Truth cannot be Moderated!

    Oh, I wish they would just quote the “you can’t stop the signal” from “Serenity.”

    Troof to powder.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  1032. Stashiu3, you did make the right decision. Avoid pain, and truth hurts. Anyhow I had my fun watching this spectacle of self beclowning. I leave now amused, beliefs reaffirmed, the newly clowned humbled or doubling down on their clowning.

    [note: released from moderation. –Stashiu]

    Ryan (e4837b)

  1033. L’Hommedieu. Exact same style. Trolled under RyanBacon until his anti-Semitic rantings got himself embarrassed quite publicly. Like Willie the racists hilljack, he just moved on tom the next cesspool of conservative racisms.

    JD (318f81)

  1034. Trolls attract trolls

    JD (318f81)

  1035. #1049…translation: I work here is done.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  1036. c’mon JD. Gotta admit, your guy is going down fast… all we want is the truth.

    tifosa (f1af0a)

  1037. JD, remember that whole “a crash of rhinos,” “a thief of crows” business? What do you call a group of trolls?

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  1038. Oh if they will let me keep posting I will stay….

    [note: released from moderation. You’re welcome to stay. Contribute nothing but ad-homs and you won’t be seen. I’ve released some, held others. –Stashiu]

    Ryan (e4837b)

  1039. a party

    tifosa (f1af0a)

  1040. Who is my guy, tiffyosa?

    JD (318f81)

  1041. tifosa,

    I already linked that report in my comment 972, but that was some time ago so it’s easy to miss. It is interesting, isn’t it? I can understand comparing speech patterns but it’s harder for me to grasp that speech and screams can be reliably compared.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  1042. Never mind. You have already shown your contempt for our criminal justice system, and your desire for lynchings, and punitive trials to punish those that the mob don’t like. You and yours apparently want a race war between Hispanics and blacks.

    JD (318f81)

  1043. Stashiu, what is your definition of ad=hom?

    And I don’t see any consistency in your moderating. Is it ad-hoc or are their rules that apply to all? OF course you are free to do it how you want.

    [It’s consistently subject to my opinion, which Patterico seems to trust. Long-time commenters are given more slack than people who come in ranting and insulting. You’ll get the idea as you stick around. Right now, you’re not contributing anything but calling a broad section of people here “Zimmerman lovers” which is hardly accurate, and making vague comments about how they’re going to get what’s coming to them. We don’t need it here. You’ll see people discussing Zimmerman in a negative way if you care to look, they don’t get moderated because they back up their views and have a history here. I don’t have to agree with either side and don’t. I have no opinion. I just try to keep things civil. Two long-time commenters disagreed earlier and were pretty insulting to each other. No worries there, they can work that out themselves because they’re both good people with a history here. You have none and contribute nothing so far. Don’t like my opinion? Feel free to ask Patterico for a second one. Be warned, he’s the one who bans folks, I never do. –Stashiu]

    Ryan (e4837b)

  1044. It bears repeating :)

    tifosa (f1af0a)

  1045. a trial

    tifosa (f1af0a)

  1046. “What do you call a group of trolls?”

    – Simon Jester

    I submit “a pustule.” It’s ugly and distracting and ultimately full of sh*t.

    Leviticus (870be5)

  1047. Stashiu3

    Thanks for taking the time to explain your actions. Clearly your moderation is adhoc and the same rules don’t apply evenly. Since it is opaque I cannot really deal with it. Also, I don’t like be selectively edited, gives you the ability to adjust my message. So I will just leave knowing what kind of site this is…. I had thought for a brief moment it wasn’t that kinda place, but you proved to me just another closed minded conservative echo chamber. Good luck with it.

    [I have never “selectively edited” a comment to adjust a message in my life. Up to you if you leave or stay. –Stashiu]

    Ryan (e4837b)

  1048. A skulk of tiffyosas

    JD (318f81)

  1049. Stashiu, by editing some comments (deleting them) and keeping others of mine you adjust my message. Thus I must submit to your altering of my message, or I must leave. I would love to stay and participate, but you refuse to allow it. Meanwhile other posters comment on the proper classification for the Trolls, or curse me out, etc… and you let them stay. You reveal yourself most thoroughly. Which is FINE! Totally fine! Just be honest about it.

    [note: released from moderation. –Stashiu]

    Ryan (e4837b)

  1050. Maybe “a sack of Andrews”?

    Leviticus (870be5)

  1051. I think that Ryan’s work is done, too, Stashiu3.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  1052. Ryan seems rather devious.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  1053. “DS comes across as a real cracker pu$$y.”

    Did that guy just call me a “cracker pussy”???

    I prefer to think of myself as a guy who tries to avoid trouble and who’s ancestors came from Georgia, so I guess “cracker pussy” will do.

    It’s kind of vulgar though.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  1054. Also, I don’t like be selectively edited, gives you the ability to adjust my message. So I will just leave knowing what kind of site this is…. I had thought for a brief moment it wasn’t that kinda place, but you proved to me just another closed minded conservative echo chamber.

    This is so dishonest and passive-aggressive, I’m sure Ryan must be a girl.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  1055. Careful Dana, you’ll get banned. Stay on topic

    Ryan (e4837b)

  1056. You’re hilarious tonight, Dana.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  1057. Wow. Better moderate DRJ too. Pretty soon no one will be able to post. Oh wait….

    [Couldn’t resist releasing this one. It’s probably the last co