Patterico's Pontifications

3/25/2012

New Black Panthers: We Want George Zimmerman “Dead or Alive”

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 1:34 am

If you’ve been living in a cave: George Zimmerman is the guy who killed the young black kid Trayvon Martin. So forget the system — let’s kill him if necessary!

On Thursday, members of the New Black Panther Party for Self-Defense circulated a “wanted dead or alive” poster for George Zimmerman over the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.

The posters were circulated during a press conference led by Minister Mikhail Muhummud, who said he is the southern regional director for the New Black Panther Party in Jacksonville, Florida.

Feel free to pass along where you’re seeing this story in Big Media.

Thanks to Dana.

344 Comments

  1. “Mikhail Muhummud”

    I’m assuming he’s a black Russian.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/25/2012 @ 2:03 am

  2. He’s threatened to kill before: In January 2008 Mikhail Muhammad, the group’s leader in Jacksonville, Florida, responded to police shootings of two local African-American men with promise of payback: “We believe an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth because we believe the undercover vice is going around and killing our people.”

    Comment by Icy (5c3322) — 3/25/2012 @ 3:06 am

  3. This just in: Derrick Bell says “nothing to see here; after all, it’s just talk.”

    Comment by Icy (5c3322) — 3/25/2012 @ 3:12 am

  4. If the truth comes out, who will believe it?

    Comment by sickofrinos (44de53) — 3/25/2012 @ 3:35 am

  5. Florida will probably see an increase in weapon sales.

    Comment by sickofrinos (44de53) — 3/25/2012 @ 3:45 am

  6. I posted about this clumsily at my site a few years ago and, to my humiliation, was rightly called out by a disease-ridden Canadian sex-tourist who is now banned here. The Black Panthers are garbage. Garbage. Garbage. Killed the son of my next-door neighbor, a Chicago police officer, sniping from the rooftops of Cabrini Green. A man who was there to keep them, and their women and children, from being robbed, raped and murdered. What they want is no law. So they can rob, rape, and murder with impunity. They want the legal system to punish those who resist them.

    (My next-door neighbor was an old Sicilian ginzo — much like me. With other sons. They believe in vendetta. I’m pretty sure there was payback.)

    Comment by nk (dec503) — 3/25/2012 @ 3:55 am

  7. *vengaza*. Vendetta is more Corsican. They’re both Romanized Greeks.

    Comment by nk (dec503) — 3/25/2012 @ 4:05 am

  8. I’m surprised we haven’t been talking about this case, as opposed to talking about the colorful, though relatively unimportant, antics of Nadia “Light Fingers” Naffe.

    Seems like the Trayvon Martin shooting is way bigger of a deal.

    I’m even more surprised that, once again, I’m up at 0430 wanking off on the internet.

    Insomnia is a terrible thing. I’m not going to start taking Ambien, though, due to the obvious deleterious side effects. Seems like people who take that stuff wind up developing both demetia and kleptomania. At least that appears to be true for one person who’s taking it.

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/25/2012 @ 4:44 am

  9. well since Spike Lee has given out Zimmerman’s address, a lynch mob will be showing up soon.

    Where is La Raza when you need them?

    Comment by carol (068f20) — 3/25/2012 @ 5:30 am

  10. Good Morning America – small snippet in their overall coverage this morning pointiing out all the “spontaneous” rallies and “the Black Panthers offering a $10,000 bounty…(pause for effect, theirs not mine)…for his capture.”

    The Dan guy interviewed long-time friend of Zimmerman and his lawyer, much to his apparent distaste.

    Overall, somewhat impressed, which demonstrates the low bar I have set for Big Media.

    Comment by Em (75b883) — 3/25/2012 @ 5:58 am

  11. Think LauraW at Ace’s(now about the last remaining reason to visit since Monty gone) called this “a medal pinned to Holder’s chest”.

    Think Banana Republic Generalisimo.

    The size 7 and 3/8 Field Marshal visor hat cavernous on the cretinous cranium.

    Comment by gary gulrud (d88477) — 3/25/2012 @ 6:19 am

  12. I have this urge to camp in front of Zimmerman’s house to act as “court of first resort” for the @ssholes who show up…

    Comment by Scott Jacobs (ba5cb9) — 3/25/2012 @ 6:25 am

  13. first car I owned was
    a Chevrolet Vendetta
    nickle and dimed to death

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (0ee692) — 3/25/2012 @ 6:26 am

  14. 11. Have dear family friends in Sanford. Preschooler will get the obligatory Disneyland visit one of these soon arriving winters.

    Hollowpoints making the trip too I reckon.

    Comment by gary gulrud (d88477) — 3/25/2012 @ 6:36 am

  15. dude… where’s my hate crime?
    “this what you deserve, white boy”
    walking human torch

    http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/03/24/dude-wheres-my-hate-crime/

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (0ee692) — 3/25/2012 @ 6:47 am

  16. I am George Zimmerman. Come and get me, brutha.

    Comment by PatriotRider (95ab3e) — 3/25/2012 @ 6:55 am

  17. “an eye for an eye”
    quit yer Stalin Muhammed
    and go full Crown Heights

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (0ee692) — 3/25/2012 @ 6:57 am

  18. the seething hatreds
    you smite I smite we done smote
    discrimination

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (0ee692) — 3/25/2012 @ 7:05 am

  19. Mindless twaddle from a brain dead thug. He’s a Democrat–but then I repeat myself.

    Comment by Comanche Voter (dc4fc0) — 3/25/2012 @ 7:12 am

  20. Black folks commit murder at a rate that is several times higher than other racial groups. If the race-hustlers like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton really cared about the interests of black Americans, they would do whatever it took to see that violent black criminals were separated from honest black citizens – and the rest of Americans – and put in prison where they belong.

    http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_2_criminal_justice_system.html

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (0ee692) — 3/25/2012 @ 7:21 am

  21. Looks like President Obama needs to do some serious “soul-searching” too.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (0ee692) — 3/25/2012 @ 7:24 am

  22. What the Black Panthers stand for: http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/03/23/1956007/a-handicapped-boy-fundraising.html#storylink=cpy

    Comment by nk (dec503) — 3/25/2012 @ 7:25 am

  23. I’m agitated
    in this world so full of pain
    tell me what I say

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (0ee692) — 3/25/2012 @ 7:28 am

  24. So what about the witness who alleges Trayvon did attack Zimmerman after Zimmerman stalked him?

    Comment by Bill (af584e) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:04 am

  25. A fake War on Wimmins and a fake War on Young Black Men. Both have been ready and fully constructed and on hold in the “narrative hopper” for a long time. Just waiting for a catalyst and the right moment to be played. Hopefully the American people as a whole see through this.

    Comment by elissa (24cab4) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:23 am

  26. This is the subject of the main headline (right 2/3 of the part of the front page beneath the masthead) of the New York Daily News today. It mostly pays it very straight, with not too much to indicate there’s something off or criminal about this idea, although paragraph 9 of the story (which is on page 6) notes that the Southern Poverty Law Center says that the New Black Panther Party, which the author of the article, Tina Moore says on her own authority is a black separatist group created in 1989, is “virulently racist and anti-Semitic” (quote from SPLC)

    This is a very pro-Administration newspaper at times – at least when it comes to some Democratic Party themes – it not this Administration exactly – it was the place that the front page cartoon of Newt Gingrich as a crybaby ran in 1995 – it was treated by Charles Schumer as an impartial news story on the floor of the House, and Newt Gingrich gave up the argument, which was very much on his side,that Bill Clinton was responsible for the government shutdown and not him.

    Newt Gingrich had been saying that he was invited on the trip to Yitzchak Rabin’s funeral with the idea that on the long plane trip, there would be time to negotiate over he budget but Bill Clinton wouldn’t see him, but instead spent time playing hearts with New York Daily News publisher Mort Zuckerman.. It’s a little hard maybe to figure out Mort Zuckerman’s exact political alliances – he was touted for awhile s possibly running for the Senate in New York in 2010 as a Republican against Kirsten Gillebrand. Maybe that was just to make sure no strong candidate started raising money.

    Te Daily News also, in the January 27-March 14 period of 1994 was countering the Christopher Ruddy stories in the New York Post about the Vincent Foster case, finally coming out with a Case Closed article by Mike McAlary that relied on leaks some of which did not jibe with what was later in Fiske’s report.

    It is my contention that the article by Fred Barnes on page 10 of the March 14, 1994 New Republic (meaning really the first days of March) telling of and explaining a secret unscheduled meeting he previous July between Saudi Arabian to the US.Prince Bandar bin Sultan (now the Saudi National Security Adviser in charge of countering the Arab Spring and preventing the emergence of democracy or regimes that would be at peace with Israel and also a possible future King) and
    President Clinton and Sandy Burglar was *also* a Foster case leak, and Vincent Foster was murdered by the Saudis and Prince Bandar came to explain and ask for this to be covered up)

    The leak of the picture of a gun (which only an idiot as being in any way satisfactorily shown to belong to Vincent Foster in violation of DC gun control laws – a point somehow never alluded to – also happened around the same time.

    The actual New York Daily News front page headline goes:

    BLACK PANTHER BOUNTY // $10,000 REWARD FOR TARYVON’S KILLER PAGE 6

    There is an icon of a black panther and a picture of George Zimmerman with a bullseye from a ginsight on the front page.

    The headline on page 6

    BLACK PANTHER RAGE

    10G to ‘capture’Trayvon’s killer.

    There is also a wanted poster which might be something conceived of by the Daily News(No source is given)

    It goes:

    WANTED!

    BY THE
    NEW BLACK
    PANTHER PARTY

    NEW is in RED

    There’s a black panther to the right of these words.

    Then to the left, the gunsight bullseye with George Zimmerman’s picture and to right, in red,

    $10,000
    REWARD

    Then to the left, arrows, in red, one on the left and on the right of the crosshairs with the words

    FOR CAPTURE OF
    GEORGE
    ZIMMERMAN

    Between them, Underneath his name:

    FLORIDA NEIGHBORHOODWATCH CAPTAIN

    On the right bottom, underneath REWARD a box. Half is a unlabeled picture of Trayvon Martin and the right side contains the words:

    FOR THE
    COLD-
    BLOODED
    MURDER OF
    TRAYVON
    MARTIN,
    17 YRS. OLD

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (ea9037) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:41 am

  27. CBS approves of this development because it sets the battlefield without them having to do the lifting. Any pro-Zimmerman witnesses must be anonymous….and in a world where it’s near impossible for a regular person to remain anonymous you have to assume you can only hide your identity for so long.

    It’s a big bowl of shut up, if you saw something pro-Zimmerman. Zimmerman has to take the fall for the media’s liberal guilt. The media has chosen him for the Black Violence Games and their will be done.

    Comment by East Bay Jay (19f566) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:46 am

  28. Jessie Jackson Jr and his odious father are saying that it is now open season on blacks. Last fall a 14 year old white girl was murdered in her home by a black male in a Chicago suburb. Certainly sounds like the makings of a hate crime to me. I searched google for any comments concering this crime from our moral betters The Jackson’s–as far as I could find not a peep. They and their media enablers and complete scum. A link to the story follows.

    Comment by Ipso Fatso (7434b9) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:53 am

  29. I should correct, are complete scum. For some reason I can’t seem to get the link to take. My bad.

    Comment by Ipso Fatso (7434b9) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:55 am

  30. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=a%2014%20year%20old%20white%20girl%20was%20murdered%20in%20her%20home%20by%20a%20black%20male%20in%20a%20chicago%20suburb&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Farticle-2057618%2FJohn-L-Wilson-Jr-charged-Chicago-schoolgirl-Kelli-OLaughlins-murder.html&ei=NkBvT5j9JZPXiQKzx8SwBQ&usg=AFQjCNE5vD159BzswMQRqxEYCf-ouNSOIg&cad=rja

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (0ee692) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:57 am

  31. “I think I see it… A Clue… over there!”

    http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/9sGsApBs93Jz2a35aI3PPw–/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD02MTI7cT04NTt3PTUwNQ–/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2012-03-25T055531Z_1598626279_GM1E83P0ZOL01_RTRMADP_3_NUCLEAR-SUMMIT.JPG

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (0ee692) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:59 am

  32. Racist haters

    It is remarkable how incurious the MFM is in re the 911 call, etc. that which does not fit the grievance pimp narrative is simply ignored.

    [note: released from moderation. --Stashiu]

    Comment by JD (e5c06b) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:02 am

  33. Mikhail Muhummus
    lucky he don’t live in a
    place like New Guinea

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (0ee692) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:04 am

  34. Clearly, black kids in Florida need to be armed.

    Maybe then Zimmerman would have thought twice.

    Comment by Jamie (ee4a20) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:05 am

  35. As LauraW at Ace said, “Now, how in the world could these fine gents feel so bold as to openly threaten someone, and publicly offer a contract for an illegal kidnapping? Why, it is almost as though they believe the law no longer applies to them. Almost like they have some precedent for believing that.”

    The hucksters want a race war. That’s the only reason to keep hurling the invective of “Raaaaaciiiiiiisss!” If Obama loses in November, it won’t be because of failed economic policies, high unemployment, disregard for the constitution, waging illegal wars, killing American citizens without a trial, escalating the drug war while simultaneously arming Mexican drug cartels to the damn teeth. Nope, it’ll be because America is racist. So go ahead and riot, because we on the left believe that it’s really all “you people” can do.

    Comment by Ghost (6f9de7) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:06 am

  36. Muhummus lucky
    that he don’t live where they make
    the Ak-Mak crackers®

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (0ee692) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:07 am

  37. I am again appalled at our president being the one to make this a national race issue. With his comment about if he had a son he would like Trayvaughn, he put race smack back in the public square and divisively so. There is nothing he won’t use as a political weapon – even the murder of a young man. He incites hate. And the New Black Panthers took the bait because that’s what they live for – a reason to hate and live out that hate and believing themselves dully justified in doing so.

    Comment by Dana (eddbfd) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:19 am

  38. “You know, if I had a son, he would look like Trayvon.”

    always about Him, ain’t it. As president, he’s supposed to care about all kids… those who look like him and even those who don’t. Narcissist bum.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (0ee692) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:22 am

  39. ____________________________________________

    All the specifics of the Zimmerman story haven’t been fully aired, but knowing the record of one person who has heroically and nobly inserted himself into the case — referring to the guy in the White House, who a few years ago gave a million benefits of the doubt to Henry Louis Gates and not the cop from Cambridge, Massachusetts — I have my suspicions. So it’s possible this story eventually will deserve to be honored by adding it to the Official List of Analyses of Liberal Outrage, Discernment and Judgment. These are among the highlights of that list:

    csmonitor.com, October 24, 2007:

    By now, almost everyone in America has heard of Jena, La., because they’ve all heard the story of the “Jena 6.” White students hanging nooses barely punished, a schoolyard fight, excessive punishment for the six black attackers, racist local officials, public outrage and protests – the outside media made sure everyone knew the basics.

    There’s just one problem: The media got most of the basics wrong. In fact, I have never before witnessed such a disgrace in professional journalism. Myths replaced facts, and journalists abdicated their solemn duty to investigate every claim because they were seduced by a powerfully appealing but false narrative of racial injustice.

    The real story of Jena and the Jena 6 is quite different from what the national media presented. It’s time to set the record straight.

    Myth 1: The Whites-Only Tree. There has never been a “whites-only” tree at Jena High School. Students of all races sat underneath this tree. When a student asked during an assembly at the start of school last year if anyone could sit under the tree, it evoked laughter from everyone present – blacks and whites.

    Myth 2: Nooses a Signal to Black Students. An investigation by school officials, police, and an FBI agent revealed the true motivation behind the placing of two nooses in the tree the day after the assembly. According to the expulsion committee, the crudely constructed nooses were not aimed at black students. Instead, they were understood to be a prank by three white students aimed at their fellow white friends, members of the school rodeo team.

    Myth 9: Mychal Bell’s All-White Jury. While it is true that Mychal Bell was convicted as an adult by an all-white jury in June (a conviction that was later overturned with his case sent to juvenile court), the jury selection process was completely legal and withstood an investigation by the Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division. Court officials insist that several black residents were summoned for jury duty, but did not appear.

    Myth 10: Jena 6 as Model Youth. While some members were simply caught up in the moment, others had criminal records. Bell had at least four prior violent-crime arrests before the December attack, and was on probation during most of this year.

    abcnews.go.com, February 2010: The woman who was at the center of the phony Duke lacrosse rape case was arrested today and charged with attempted murder.

    The Durham Police Department told ABC News that Crystal Gale Mangum got into an argument with her boyfriend, Milton Walker, shortly after midnight on Thursday.

    Mangum triggered a furor in 2006 when she accused three Duke Lacrosse players of raping her while working at an off campus party. Prosecutor Mike Nifong heightened the seriousness of the charges by declaring the alleged assault a hate crime.

    The charges against the three, Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty and David Evans, were eventually dropped, but not before it roiled race relations in the university town and the players were suspended from school.

    Reached by ABC News today, Nifong initially said he doubted press reports about Mangum’s arrest, saying he found news reports “to be of questionable value.

    ^ BTW, it’s surprising that people like ex-prosecutor Mike Nifong are…liberal. After all, folks of left-leaning bent often are so reliable in the way they judge and perceive reality. Speaking of which, hi, Nadia Naffe! A big shout out to you!

    ___________________________________________

    Comment by Mark (31bbb6) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:31 am

  40. I posted about this clumsily at my site a few years ago and, to my humiliation, was rightly called out by a disease-ridden Canadian sex-tourist who is now banned here. The Black Panthers are garbage. Garbage. Garbage. Killed the son of my next-door neighbor, a Chicago police officer, sniping from the rooftops of Cabrini Green. A man who was there to keep them, and their women and children, from being robbed, raped and murdered. What they want is no law. So they can rob, rape, and murder with impunity. They want the legal system to punish those who resist them.

    (My next-door neighbor was an old Sicilian ginzo — much like me. With other sons. They believe in vendetta. I’m pretty sure there was payback.)

    Comment by nk — 3/25/2012 @ 3:55 am |

    That’s a sad story. I’m sorry for your neighbor and for cities like Chicago.

    And that does remind me a lot of the current racial craziness surrounding Zimmerman’s story.

    Holder’s behavior has provoked the Panthers to feel bold and even invincible. Obama’s had provoked a country to think this was about race (even though Zimmerman’s family details suggest it isn’t).

    My opinion is that Zimmerman was, at minimum, a reckless jackass to chase a kid down, bringing a gun into a hot confrontation that didn’t need to happen. Totally irresponsible. I don’t know enough to know what kinds of crimes were committed. Could be murder (I doubt that) could be something else.

    But enough info was here for those who wanted to criticize Z without going overboard as Obama has… basically prejudicing the case.

    Comment by Dustin (330eed) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:35 am

  41. Clearly, the right thing to do is to encourage young black people in Florida to own, license and know how to use a firearm.

    Stand your ground.

    Comment by Jamie (ee4a20) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:42 am

  42. The Occupy movement–also a wholly manufactured narrative once enthusiastically pushed by the media–has imploded in on itself, is seen as a scam, and is now reviled and ignored by most normal Americans both right and left.

    The disgusting racial overplay of this Florida murder story will ultimately have the same effect of turning off most sane people. The Black Panthers and radical leftists, (as well as the Obama re-election machine) who in their desperation think they can scare people into re-electing the current president for fear of massive civil unrest and violence are going to find out what America is still made of. I really do believe this. But it’s going to get really ugly in the process. They couldn’t control the occupooper rapists and they won’t be able to control the black radicals either.

    Comment by elissa (24cab4) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:46 am

  43. I think claiming Obama went overboard doesn’t adequately describe his statement.

    I believe that his statement was tacit permission being given to the public and most importantly, to the media to push the narrative. And the people and media have responded accordingly. Had he stood up and made the statement, Like many of you, my heart goes out to this young man’s parents who have just lost their child. Period. There really was nothing else necessary to say unless he had a point he wanted to make and a narrative he wanted continued.

    It’s unfortunate racism is still the first go-to and that the POTUS chose to lead with it.

    Comment by Dana (eddbfd) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:47 am

  44. Colonel Haiku beat me to it:

    http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/03/24/dude-wheres-my-hate-crime/

    Whites are being blamed for an Hispanic’s actions. And more….

    Comment by AZ Bob (1c9631) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:48 am

  45. Dana, this is what he was taught at Harvard, and imparted by Frank Davis, what he lectured on at
    U Chicago, what dominated his community organizing
    and his early years in the legislature,

    Comment by narciso (79a2f1) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:55 am

  46. The excellent Heather McDonald asks Why Manipulate the Tragedy?

    The protesters in Florida and across the country are right to demand an explanation for the decision not to charge Zimmerman. A critical examination of Florida’s Stand Your Ground law is absolutely warranted. But the racial storyline that has been imposed on the shooting does not fairly represent contemporary America. That storyline is not just wrong; it is dangerous, because it only feeds black alienation and anger.

    But we needn’t fret over the matter of who and why this happened – MSNBC, of course, has figured it out:

    MSNBC analyst Karen Finney claimed that “racist rhetoric” used by Rush Limbaugh and several Republican presidential candidates was responsible for Martin’s death.

    [Found in filter.]

    Comment by Dana (eddbfd) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:55 am

  47. Comment by Mark

    Mark… I read a book about the Duke Lacrosse case about 6 months ago (can’t recall the title) and it was one of the most revolting stories in recent memory. The injustice and rush to convict those young men and the lengths that much of the media went to to further the narrative of “privileged, racist white fratboys” was absolutely appalling.

    I wouldn’t piss on Nancy Grace, Paula Zahn and many others if their hair was on fire. Spreading outright falsehoods in the face of evidence that clearly showed no crimes were committed.

    Nifong should have been sent to prison for a long stretch.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (0ee692) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:55 am

  48. Dana- I agree. There was no reason whatsoever for him to involve himself in this at all. Unless, of course, the president now considers it part of his job duties and intends to opine on every single still-under-investigation killing in any jurisdiction in America. Or, unless he was following a very risky pre-planned and prepared script to gin up people who “look like him”.

    Comment by elissa (24cab4) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:59 am

  49. I don’t know about the “jackass” part.

    Zimmerman’s neighborhood did have break-ins, his description of the kid is that he was a stranger young mail walking without clear direction or purpose, peering in home and car windows. The 911 calls are reasonable if that’s true.

    Why did he get out of his car?

    Was it because the kid approached and Z wanted to be ready to confront?

    Did the kid then take off when he saw Z get out?

    OR, did the kid just change his mind while approaching Z, and turn tail, and Z got out to see which way he went?

    I don’t see anything wrong with either move on Z’s part, although driving away as the kid approached would have been my own choice.

    The kid wasn’t shot as he approached Z and the car, however. Sitting there in the car is not provocation. and no unreasonable force was used at that stage.

    So, if the truth is as Z says, he followed down the direction the kid fled to see if Z could spot him again, but failed, and then turned around to return to his car, not in pursuit, not brandishing a weapon just returning to his car, and the kid comes from behind and starts beating him – the aggressor is not Z.

    Kid at that time becomes a criminal aggressor.
    Z cannot retreat, as he is being punched and throttled, and might well be in fear of serious bodily injury or even death.

    If that’s what happened, that aggression and nothing else resulted in Z’s use of force – not the running away, not the following. Z was IN RETREAT – returning to his car, and was jumped.

    I do have a bias now because the MSM has exaggerated the kid’s youth and innocence.

    They tell me the kid is 14, small and mild, in pictures, when he’s three years older, and much more imposing physically. They put out un-vetted claims of his mother that he was shot sitting on a porch. They tell me this kid is a model student when he’s just been suspended from school. They tell me he is a “good kid” when others say he has a rap sheet for violence and burglary.

    I am skeptical. What else might they be failing to determine and/or report on this kid?

    It’s clear Zimmerman was getting the worst of it in the final beatdown, that HE was calling frantically for help.

    If that attack was the kid’s choice, this alone led to Z using his weapon to stop the attack. But for the attack it would never have occurred.

    [Found in filter.]

    Comment by SarahW (b0e533) — 3/25/2012 @ 10:01 am

  50. Nobody in Jacksonville takes these black clown seriously. They are all convicted felons who are just waiting for a chance to riot. I can gurantee you that even the blacks in Jacksonville are not afraid of them

    Comment by John (50833f) — 3/25/2012 @ 10:05 am

  51. “Clearly, the right thing to do is to encourage young black people in Florida to own, license and know how to use a firearm.”

    Jamie – They seem to have no problem obtaining firearms when they need to. Isn’t there a trial going on right now down there of a black ute who allegedly killed two foreign tourists in cold blood? I’m not holding my breath to see that one written up in the national news.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/25/2012 @ 10:08 am

  52. Pouring gasoline and lighting a child on fire didn’t warrant Barcky’s comments. the MFM and the Black Panthers and Al Sharpton and Barcky are again pushing a false narrative. Will they apologize to the Hispanics for trying to ignite a race war?

    Comment by JD (318f81) — 3/25/2012 @ 10:09 am

  53. Dustin,

    Why shouldn’t Zimmerman carry a gun? He has a concealed carry permit and when he goes out after dark to watch over his neighborhood, that seems like an especially appropriate time to carry. Of course, there’s a risk involved when anyone carries a gun but I’d much rather do a job like that with a gun than without.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 3/25/2012 @ 10:11 am

  54. Has our inquisitive press figured out what nationality Mr. Zimmerman’s for-bearers were? You can tell by looking at him that he is Hispanic. Is he Cuban? Puerto Rican? Mexican?

    Where I live, there is a race war going on between Blacks and Mexicans. A teenage boy I know was caught in the crossfire when an Hispanic man (most likely a Mexican national, though he was never caught) tried to cap a black teenager who had dissed him and missed his target.

    Is something similar going on in Sanford?

    Comment by ThOR (94646f) — 3/25/2012 @ 10:11 am

  55. My opinion is that Zimmerman was, at minimum, a reckless jackass to chase a kid down, bringing a gun into a hot confrontation that didn’t need to happen. Totally irresponsible.

    Assumes facts not in evidence, and ignores nine one one call and witness account.

    Comment by JD (318f81) — 3/25/2012 @ 10:12 am

  56. Stoaty Weasel nailed Barry’s response:
    “When asked about the killing, he said (among other things), “You know, if I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.”
    Which is just so weird and wrong, I had to read it through a few times. WTF?
    And then I was, like, Oh. Right. He took this question because race hucksters have been pressuring him. He’s telling them of course I care, this kid looks like me.
    It’s the perfect intersection of malignant narcissism and identity politics. I wonder if he realizes how baldly he gave himself away.”

    He doesn’t realize it, because no one is calling him on it. And because he doesn’t care.

    Comment by Ghost (6f9de7) — 3/25/2012 @ 10:32 am

  57. _______________________________________________

    Nifong should have been sent to prison for a long stretch.

    I don’t think I’m being glib when I theorize that any government official similar to Nifong has to be mentally defective, and how frightening that should be to the public. After all, in spite of all the facts having come out about the Duke Lacrosse players, and about their accuser in particular, the ex-prosecutor still was resistant to news that the original “victim” had been arrested for attempted murder.

    I also don’t think I’m being flip when I theorize there are versions and variations of a Mike-Nifong scattered throughout the White House, from the top on down.

    as well as the Obama re-election machine) who in their desperation think they can scare people into re-electing the current president for fear of massive civil unrest and violence are going to find out what America is still made of

    I don’t know if this “insider” in the Obama administration truly is authentic, but what’s sickening is, in light of the track record and quirks of his boss, he probably is.

    White House Insider

    The race card, the racial thing – whatever it’s gonna be called, it is the number one asset this administration believes it has to win in 2012. Their own polling data has shown that to be true over and over again. But how far are they willing to push that? Race. The charges of racism? I believe all the way if they have to. And they are gonna get people stirred up.

    And if Barack Obama doesn’t win re-election, watch them stand back while the riots break out, and watch them mouth the words “Burn baby burn.” I don’t think they are willing to go that far, I know it. If they can’t have America, nobody will. That’s how big – that’s how important this election coming up is. Even the people who pay attention to this stuff…they don’t realize how big this is. How important to the country. We are truly at a fork in the road here. This administration is going to attempt whatever necessary to remain in power. Race. Intimidation. Media attacks. Division – divide and f***ing conquer.

    Comment by Mark (31bbb6) — 3/25/2012 @ 10:34 am

  58. If Zimmerman really was all that evil he’d have a “Throwdown Gun”, serial # obliterated untraceable to put in Tre-Vaughns cold dead fingers…
    And if he’s smart he’ll Ski-Daddle to some country without an extradition treaty…
    But they love the Thug life, Hippity Hop Muzik, and act all offended when White Peoples take em seriously.

    Frank

    Comment by Frank Drackman (da969f) — 3/25/2012 @ 10:44 am

  59. Jamie – They seem to have no problem obtaining firearms when they need to. Isn’t there a trial going on right now down there of a black ute who allegedly killed two foreign tourists in cold blood? I’m not holding my breath to see that one written up in the national news.

    What’s a “black ute?”

    But more seriously, I think the right response here for those who wish to encourage self defense is to recognize people like Zimmerman are aggressive threats, and promote gun ownership of those at risk.

    Comment by Jamie (ee4a20) — 3/25/2012 @ 10:44 am

  60. Jamie,

    I don’t agree Zimmerman was a threat based on what we know at this time, but I have no objection to any qualified adult carrying a gun as long as they complete a concealed carry permit course and get licensed. I doubt a 17-year-old would qualify.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 3/25/2012 @ 10:54 am

  61. Jamie’s history of asshattery remains intact.

    Comment by JD (318f81) — 3/25/2012 @ 11:01 am

  62. jamie–with respect to utes or (yoots) think joe pesci.

    Comment by elissa (24cab4) — 3/25/2012 @ 11:02 am

  63. Assumes facts not in evidence, and ignores nine one one call and witness account.

    Comment by JD

    No, it doesn’t.

    I am not assuming anything about Martin. Even if Martin did react by beating up Zimmerman, my view doesn’t change.

    Even if Zimmerman shooting Martin was justified self defense, my view doesn’t change. I’m not saying that Zimmerman deserves to go to jail. I can’t know that stuff because I don’t know what happened there.

    Why shouldn’t Zimmerman carry a gun? He has a concealed carry permit and when he goes out after dark to watch over his neighborhood, that seems like an especially appropriate time to carry.

    I think it’s fine for Zimmerman to carry a gun, but those who carry guns should (as a moral, not legal issue) have common sense and realize that any confrontation has very high stakes. If someone cuts them off on the freeway, if there’s a kid walking through the neighborhood, etc, they should consider that if they escalate the situation there’s a non-trivial change of tragedy.

    So what Zimmerman should have done, if he felt the kid suspicious enough, was call the police. This was a situation where minutes count and the police were minutes away, rather than the ‘seconds count’ type of situation.

    Just my opinion.

    I believe that those carrying a gun should go above and beyond what those who don’t should worry about.

    I doubt there’s enough evidence available to prosecute this man, and I believe that means he should remain free. I think Zimmerman is a victim of trial by media. But I also think he was reckless.

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by Dustin (330eed) — 3/25/2012 @ 11:06 am

  64. I think the right response here for those who wish to encourage self defense is to recognize people like Zimmerman are aggressive threats, and promote gun ownership of those at risk.

    What do you mean, “people like Zimmerman”? Do you mean an Hispanic male? A citizen legally carrying a gun? A Neighborhood Watch captain? Be specific.

    Comment by Dana (4eca6e) — 3/25/2012 @ 11:08 am

  65. My response went into the dang filter.

    Anyway, I’m not saying Z is guilty of a crime. I do not know and I suspect there isn’t enough evidence to know (so he should be free).

    But he was reckless.

    I conceal carry. It has a mellowing effect. I read a blog post that captured this well, but I am unable to find it. A man was pumping gasoline and another patron was being a jerk. He would ordinarily reply to the rude jerk, but decided it wasn’t worth the risks.

    What crime would he have committed if he had replied to the jerk with insults about the jerk’s mother? None. But it would be reckless.

    Zimmerman’s case is different, of course. He thought there was a suspicious person. I think this was the perfect time to take a photograph, make sure the kid knew he was being watched, and let the police resolve the suspicious person report.

    Comment by Dustin (330eed) — 3/25/2012 @ 11:12 am

  66. “They’re selling postcards of the hanging
    They’re painting the passports brown
    The beauty parlor is filled with sailors
    The circus is in town”

    - Robert Zimmerman

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (0ee692) — 3/25/2012 @ 11:13 am

  67. Typical white people.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/25/2012 @ 11:28 am

  68. I agree, Dustin, that at the very least he was reckless and overstepping. In the absence of more details, though, everything else is just speculation.

    However, there is an enormous disconnect between his refusal to stop following the young man (after being told to and informed that the police were on their way by the 911 operator) and his subsequent claim of self-defense under Stand Your Ground law (which the author of the bill has said does not apply to the Zimmerman matter).

    [Found in filter.]

    Comment by Dana (4eca6e) — 3/25/2012 @ 11:29 am

  69. ______________________________________________

    But he was reckless.

    Maybe he was, maybe he wasn’t. I’d be more skeptical of where he was coming from if the community he was patrolling were a very tranquil, crime-free environment, and one that was mono-racial. The type of area where anyone who didn’t conform to the prevailing race or ethnicity of the residents immediately would stand out and be viewed suspiciously.

    usnews.msnbc.msn.com:

    A neighbor of George Zimmerman and fellow neighborhood watch captain in their Florida gated community came to his defense Tuesday, saying Zimmerman shot Miami teenager Trayvon Martin after numerous burglaries at The Retreat at Twin Lakes.

    Frank Taaffe pointed out the circumstances that he believes led his 28-year-old neighbor to react the way he did on the night of Feb. 26: Eight burglaries within 15 months, most done by young black males, he said.

    “The stage was already set. It was a perfect storm,” Taaffe said.

    “This guy looks like he’s up to no good … he looks black,” Zimmerman told a police dispatcher from his car. His father has said that Zimmerman is Hispanic, grew up in a multiracial family, and is not racist.

    Twin Lakes’ population is ethnically mixed. A few residents said there is tension within the gated community, but Taaffe insisted Tuesday that Zimmerman was acting out of concern for the safety of the area. “George is a congenial, amiable, admirable person,” he said. “He had a passion and a care for this neighborhood to ensure the safety of everybody here. And, furthermore, George is no Rambo.”

    Taaffe said that Zimmerman was appointed as a watch captain, despite reports that he appointed himself to the post.

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by Mark (31bbb6) — 3/25/2012 @ 11:37 am

  70. President Obama, perhaps more than anyone in the world, knows that Trayvon could be anybody’s son.

    Comment by Icy (5c3322) — 3/25/2012 @ 11:38 am

  71. President Obama, perhaps more than anyone in the world, knows that Trayvon could be anybody’s son.

    Comment by Icy

    There are so many tragedies in this country and he picks that one to personalize and prejudice. It’s helpful to know his basis was what Trayvon looked like.

    Comment by Dustin (330eed) — 3/25/2012 @ 11:42 am

  72. My comment appears to have also been swallowed up by the filter…

    Anyway, Dustin,

    I agree that at the very least, he was reckless and I believe, overstepped. This especially after he was specifically told by the 911 operator not to follow and that the police were on their way.

    However, there is a big gulf of unknown from the time of Zimmerman’s acknowledgement to the 911 operator that he was indeed continuing to follow Trayvon and then later his subsequent claim of self-defense under the Stand Your Ground Law (which the author of the bill claims he has no defense under the bill )

    Without knowing those details, everything is just speculation.

    [Found in filter.]

    Comment by Dana (4eca6e) — 3/25/2012 @ 11:48 am

  73. Seems to me Obama wants to imply that if he loses in November, there will be riots. And of course no media bias in the reporting so far. Read on one site that the Trayvon kid was expelled from school and another site said that he was suspended for five days for disruptive behavior. So was he an angel or a thug? Various responses from blacks are that a double standard is in play and that if the situation were reversed, the black would be in jail. I don’t buy that. All those murders in Chicago this past St. Patrick’s Day didn’t seem to bother the Chosen One nor the incident when a white kid was chased by two black teens and set afire to show whitey how it feels to burn. And I see Sharpton, Obama, Jesse Jackson, the “new” black panthers and my namesake stirring the pot. Their whole act has gotten old and yet the asstards in the media continue to encourage it.

    Comment by Calypso Louis Farrakhan (d32e4c) — 3/25/2012 @ 11:51 am

  74. Dustin, my point is that Trayvon could easily have been of mixed race.

    Comment by Icy (5c3322) — 3/25/2012 @ 12:18 pm

  75. Nearly all of us are of mixed race, Icy… truth be told.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (b7cf0d) — 3/25/2012 @ 12:19 pm

  76. ____________________________________________

    The following is why I try to always qualify comments about groups of people, be they Republicans or Democrats, or conservatives or liberals, or centrists, etc, with words like “most,” “many,” “some,” “a percentage of.”

    Along with Santorum claiming recently that Romney would be no better than Obama, he has made another gaffe that ironically enough demonstrates to me that he himself can easily be vulnerable to having a “distorted view of reality.” He is an example that people of right-leaning bent are not immune from a deficiency of common sense on occasion.

    news.yahoo.com, The Daily Caller

    On Sunday’s “Face the Nation” on CBS, Republican presidential hopeful Rick Santorum explained that his view of the Trayvon Martin shooting differed significantly from the one held by former House Speaker Newt Gingrich.

    Gingrich was critical of President Barack Obama’s reaction. But Santorum placed the blame on accused shooter George Zimmerman’s mental state.

    “Well, you know, obviously, I’m not privy to what’s going on in someone’s mind,” Santorum said. “Obviously, in my opinion, someone … has a very sick mind who would pursue someone like this. This is clearly a heinous act. You know, there are a lot of people who have a lot of distorted views of reality. It’s a tragic, tragic case. And my heart goes out to the parents, too. I can’t imagine what they’re suffering, losing their son in such a horrific way. All I would say is that, whatever the motive is, it was a malicious one, and a very, very tragic one.”

    ^ I’ve noted in the past that the biggest blunders of Republican presidents going back to at least Herbert Hoover, and including Ronald Reagan, have been when they’ve allowed their liberal biases to get the better of them. If Santorum were in the White House, his gut reaction to something like the Zimmberman-Martin case suggests he’d be no less prone to the same deficiency.

    [Found in filter.]

    Comment by Mark (31bbb6) — 3/25/2012 @ 12:20 pm

  77. Dustin, my point is that Trayvon could easily have been of mixed race.

    Comment by Icy

    Sorry, I didn’t catch that. You’re right, too.

    I totally understand why Obama went there. It’s appalling. The black panthers wouldn’t care about this if Trayvon was Middle Eastern or Hispanic or Irish, but I would.

    if he loses in November, there will be riots

    There will be. The democrats have been horrible on racial stuff for some time. They were doing this during the Obamacare debate by fabricating spit attacks. They have done this by letting the Black Panthers get away with voter intimidation. We will have riots in November, if Obama loses. This is how desperate the democrats are to cling to power.

    Comment by Dustin (330eed) — 3/25/2012 @ 12:22 pm

  78. Stashiu, if you’re around, the spam filter is eating comments.

    Comment by Dana (4eca6e) — 3/25/2012 @ 12:26 pm

  79. Nearly all of us are of mixed race, Icy… truth be told.
    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 3/25/2012 @ 12:19 pm

    – You have been reported to Attack Watch, African-Americans for Obama Division.

    Comment by Icy (5c3322) — 3/25/2012 @ 12:34 pm

  80. Healing video.

    Too soon?

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/25/2012 @ 12:42 pm

  81. way too soon. here’s my favorite version, daley…

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=piscopo%20murphy%20ebony%20and%20ivory%20video&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDkQtwIwAw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebaumsworld.com%2Fvideo%2Fwatch%2F14115%2F&ei=7nVvT8XQGumviAL7veyGBQ&usg=AFQjCNEknynzlhJugkrACFpMWPR2IzpLtw&cad=rja

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (b7cf0d) — 3/25/2012 @ 12:47 pm

  82. The main target here is Stand Your Ground.

    Comment by DaMav (48fe0d) — 3/25/2012 @ 1:47 pm

  83. “The main target here is Stand Your Ground.”

    Which the legislators who sponsored it in FLA say has nothing to do with what appears to have happened.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (612d95) — 3/25/2012 @ 1:53 pm

  84. Is this really a classic case of stand your ground? This guy chased the kid down. Somehow there was a fight. It is merely a claim of self defense.

    Watch out because the media will be urging the repeal of the doctrine of self defense. You only have a right to call 911.

    An expansion of the death panels maybe?

    Comment by AZ Bob (1c9631) — 3/25/2012 @ 1:59 pm

  85. By the way, there is some discussion of a Trayvon Martin Facebook page with some photos of a young black gangster. Don’t get taken in. I spent a couple minutes looking at it. The kid appears to be a Savannah, GA area gangster with a gang called “Waters Avenue Money Gang” or WAMG. That is a Savannah, GA gang and the school listed on the FB page is a Savannah, GA middle school. It doesn’t look like Trayvon Martin and I know of no evidence that the Trayvon Martin in the news ever lived in Savannah.

    Comment by Patterico (feda6b) — 3/25/2012 @ 2:35 pm

  86. TM did have a facebook page – taken down by his family. His media-presented photographs are not current

    When they take pains to get a current photo I’ll stop believing they are being deceptive.

    Comment by SarahW (b0e533) — 3/25/2012 @ 2:37 pm

  87. “Muhummud demanded the firing of Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, the arrest of George Zimmerman and involvement from President Obama.”

    I agree with the first two points, even if they are coming from a NBPP loon. Even loons can be right once in awhile.

    Obama, however is an idiot. He ought to stay out of it. He’s already made one comment that could be construed as being motivated by racism. He’s done enough.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/25/2012 @ 2:45 pm

  88. My previous comment seems to have again gotten caught in the filter, but… the author of the author of the Stand Your Ground law, claims,

    “He has no protection under my law,” former Sen. Durell Peaden told the newspaper.

    Florida’s law, called “stand your ground” by supporters and “shoot first” by critics, was passed in 2005 and permits residents to use deadly force if they “reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”

    Zimmerman, 28, reportedly admitted to police that he shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin on the evening of February 26. He was released without being charged after claiming he killed the boy in self-defense. But 911 recordings released over the weekend suggest that Zimmerman, who has a concealed weapons permit and volunteered in an apparently informal neighborhood watch program, pursued Martin, despite being told police were on their way.

    It is the fact that Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator’s advice not to follow Martin that former Sen. Peaden says disqualifies him from claiming self-defense under the law.

    “The guy lost his defense right then,” Peaden told the Miami Herald. “When he said ‘I’m following him,’ he lost his defense.”

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by Dana (4eca6e) — 3/25/2012 @ 2:57 pm

  89. “Zimmerman’s neighborhood did have break-ins, his description of the kid is that he was a stranger young mail walking without clear direction or purpose, peering in home and car windows. The 911 calls are reasonable if that’s true.”

    That’s not at all reasonable.

    None of those things (the young man was doing) are crimes, and none of those things are emergencies. Zimmerman had no legitimate reason to call the police, no legitimate reason to make a baseless (and what appears to be false) claim that the kid was on drugs, and definitely no legitimate reason to stalk and then shoot the kid dead.

    Zimmerman has a long history of misuing 911 services and calling the police to report things that aren’t crimes.

    He’s a whack job, and he’s a whack job with a history of violence and flakiness, and now he’s provoked a confrontation with, and killed what appears to be, a totally innocent, unarmed kid, who was doing nothing more than walk to the store to buy some goodies.

    He should have been brought up on murder charges a long time ago, and the people that are raising hell about this case are right to do so.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/25/2012 @ 3:32 pm

  90. Barack Obama went marching with this same hate group. Why isn’t he being held responsible for their statements?

    Comment by Daryl Herbert (92a60f) — 3/25/2012 @ 3:44 pm

  91. I thought I had clicked the wrong link when I read the headline “New Black Panties…” Whew.

    Comment by Birdbath (ce2227) — 3/25/2012 @ 4:05 pm

  92. Well, based on this threat, don’t be surprised if Zimmerman, shoots first at any black man approaching him, especially if he is wearing a black suit, white shirt, with a narrow black tie.

    Comment by sirgrumps (287b70) — 3/25/2012 @ 4:14 pm

  93. there is a big gulf of unknown from the time of Zimmerman’s acknowledgement to the 911 operator that he was indeed continuing to follow Trayvon and then later his subsequent claim of self-defense under [some kind of justifiable homocide]

    Agreed.

    It sounds like they will be unable to prove a case against him, even though we’re talking about affirmative defenses, they don’t know a lot about what happened here.

    It’s a shame that many folks are inflating Z’s actions to murder in ignorance. I still am critical of what I know of his decisions, but I don’t know that he committed any crimes.

    And I think stand your ground laws are a very good idea. Of course even good ideas don’t always work perfectly. Sometimes there is an exceptional and extreme case. But this Stand Your Ground is the right policy.

    Comment by Dustin (330eed) — 3/25/2012 @ 4:17 pm

  94. At this point, I’d like to see Zimmerman in protective custody by the State of Florida. I’d feel more comfortable about that than if he were in federal custody.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 3/25/2012 @ 4:21 pm

  95. . All I would say is that, whatever the motive is, it was a malicious one, and a very, very tragic one.”

    Ridiculous. Apparently Santorum is a mind reader.

    Comment by JD (e5c06b) — 3/25/2012 @ 4:24 pm

  96. I’m very worried about what’s going to happen to him, DRJ. He will never be safe again. Obama should consider that Zimmerman looks like someone’s son, too.

    Comment by Dustin (330eed) — 3/25/2012 @ 4:24 pm

  97. Dave Surls #84,

    I don’t think we know enough facts to say what happened here, let alone who was at fault.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 3/25/2012 @ 4:39 pm

  98. Dave, of course its reasonable to report a suspicious person. If there were a kid acting as like that in my neighborhood, I’d call myself to report a suspicious person.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 3/25/2012 @ 4:50 pm

  99. The nine one won call, and the witness accounts, paint quite a different story than the narrative that is being pushed by the Left, especially the MFM.

    Comment by JD (e5c06b) — 3/25/2012 @ 4:51 pm

  100. I agree that it seems time to put Zimmerman under protective custody. Having the New Black Panthers riled up, Sharpton promising a big wave of civil disobedience, and Jesse claiming this reflects the classic struggle of our time and echoes the slaying of Emmett Till, it’s easy to see that tensions will increase and emotions further escalating.

    Comment by Dana (4eca6e) — 3/25/2012 @ 5:11 pm

  101. On our local (Sacramento) CBS affiliate, the female talking head just said “some groups are putting pressure on the case, offering a $10K reward for info leading to the arrest of the gunman, George Zimmerman.”

    Dead or Alive equals “pressure”? Lying scum. Outraged letter to affiliate will be sent shortly.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (f453e2) — 3/25/2012 @ 5:12 pm

  102. Does anyone remember when then President Nixon commented on Charles Manson during the 1970 Tate-Labianca murder trial? Nixon said something about Manson being guilty. The defense attorneys quickly called for a mistrial, to no avail.

    Nixon was criticized for talking about a current trial. Why is it all right for Obama to inject himself into an ongoing investigation?

    Comment by DN (543479) — 3/25/2012 @ 5:13 pm

  103. ______________________________________________

    He’s a whack job, and he’s a whack job with a history of violence and flakiness

    It helps if such comments come with accompanying text or links. To answer my own curiosity, I’ve come across the following, a more complete, less flattering portrait of Zimmerman compared with something from MSNBC that I pasted here a few hours ago before it got caught in the filter (where it still remains):

    csmonitor.com:

    Zimmerman’s comments on a 911 tape from the night of the shooting that “These [expletive] always get away,” and speculation about whether he uttered a racial slur before following Trayvon on foot support the idea that Zimmerman’s frustration with a crime wave in the Retreat at Twin Lakes had boiled over into vigilantism.

    Zimmerman has contended that he was on his way back to his SUV after following Trayvon when he was attacked. Police found Zimmerman with a bloody nose and blood on the back of his head. His lawyer says Zimmerman’s nose was broken.

    At the very least, a series of 46 emergency calls made by Zimmerman over the past six years document a man vigilant about keeping his neighborhood safe and orderly. The calls include complaints about unruly people at the pool, potholes, dumped trash, and kids playing in the street. In recent months, as the neighborhood saw an uptick in crime, including burglaries and a shooting, Zimmerman’s calls had focused on specific suspects, the majority of them young black men.

    [The family, neighbors and lawyer of Zimmerman portray him as] a devoted neighbor, keen enough to protect the neighborhood that residents, in establishing a local Neighborhood Watch group last year, appointed him the captain. The organization was not registered with the national Neighborhood Watch program, but was set up with the assistance of the Sanford Police Department.

    Frank Taaffe, a neighbor, told CNN that Zimmerman “had a passion for the safety of our neighborhood and he demonstrated to the rest of us that one person could make a difference. And he was an average guy, just like me.” In a separate interview, Mr. Taaffe told the Washington Post, “George is a good dude. He cares about this community. He’s not a vigilante out looking for trouble.”

    Zimmerman grew up in Manassas, Va., the son of a white father and a Latina mother. He attended a Catholic church, where he was an altar boy. In high school, he was the victim of an assault.

    In 2005, when he was 21, he was charged with assault on a police officer during an altercation over the arrest of one of his friends for underage drinking in a bar, but he chose a common route for first-time offenders: A pre-trial diversion that allowed him to escape a felony conviction. Such a conviction could have precluded him from having the permit that allowed him to carry the 9 mm gun used to shoot Trayvon.

    Also in 2005, his then-fiancée accused Zimmerman of domestic violence when she filed a court injunction against him. He responded with an injunction of his own. Their court battled ended when the injunctions expired in 2006.

    ^ I still think people like Rick Santorum should pull back before they strongly announce in public an opinion on stories that remain full of murkiness. But I do admit that the dilemma of crime shaking up and undermining so many communities, and the unfortunately high percentage of those crimes that have involved black perpetrators, needs to be weighed against the less-than-ideal history of George Zimmerman.

    [Found in filter.]

    Comment by Mark (31bbb6) — 3/25/2012 @ 5:14 pm

  104. Dave Surls, I find that you substitute your speculation in this case for facts. Its not among your good qualities.

    Comment by SPQR (26be8b) — 3/25/2012 @ 5:15 pm

  105. “To Whom it may concern… So watching your KOVR News at 5PM today, Sunday March 25th, I hear the female reporter talking about the unfortunate shooting death of the young Florida man Martin, where she says – I’ll paraphrase – “some groups are bringing some pressure to bear and offering a $10K reward for information leading to the arrest…” Let’s tell it like it really is: these groups are calling for George Zimmerman’s scalp… “dead or alive” is the way it’s stated.

    Film-maker Spike Lee has published Zimmerman’s address and Louis Farrakhan and Al Sharpton have threatened violence and murder in retribution.

    Your news copy folks should feel ashamed. Pathetic.”

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (f453e2) — 3/25/2012 @ 5:27 pm

  106. “Nixon was criticized for talking about a current trial. Why is it all right for Obama to inject himself into an ongoing investigation?”

    Comment by DN

    Yep, sure do remember that.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (f453e2) — 3/25/2012 @ 5:28 pm

  107. Some observations by a 2-A advocate:
    1- Let’s not forget, as it seems the NBPP has, that FL was in the fore-front of the “Shall Issue” movement – there are a lot of people in FL who have CCW’s, and know how to use the weapons they possess.
    2- The NBPP operates in metro areas where the general populace is essentially dis-armed, and the thugs (NBPP) have a distinct advantage over both the people and the police.
    3- The witness statement that I read was that the “ute” was on top of a prone Zim beating the crap out of him when a single gunshot was heard.
    4- In ’08, didn’t our feckless leader in the campaign egg-on supporters by paraphrasing Sean Connery in “The Untouchables”? If he is doing it again, nothing good can result, IMO.
    5 – The firearms industry is enjoying a year of unprecedented sales: Ruger has announced that they have to suspend accepting orders to try and work out from under the backlog of orders that they have on the books – 1-million firearms ordered in the 1st-Quarter of ’12 from just this one manufacturer.
    6- Gun sellers (retailers) and buyers across the country are complaining about shortages in ammo and ammo-components (for reloaders) as supplies are very short even though the industry went into the year with what they expected to be a six to nine-month inventory on the shelves in warehouses – and DoD is not a huge buyer this time as Iraq has been bailed from, and Afghanistan will be shortly.
    7- A lot of pols need to remember the words of Adm. Yamamoto when told that the attack on Pearl missed the carriers:
    “I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.” (sic)

    There are a lot of Gadsden Flags from Sea-to-Shining-Sea.

    Comment by AD-RtR/OS! (562f6f) — 3/25/2012 @ 5:53 pm

  108. I agree that it seems time to put Zimmerman under protective custody. Having the New Black Panthers riled up, Sharpton promising a big wave of civil disobedience, and Jesse claiming this reflects the classic struggle of our time and echoes the slaying of Emmett Till, it’s easy to see that tensions will increase and emotions further escalating.

    Wouldn’t it make more sense to lock up Sharpton and Jackson and the nbpp at this point? I mean, I know we don’t arrest “our people” anymore, but seriously…

    Any word from la raza yet?

    Comment by Ghost (6f9de7) — 3/25/2012 @ 5:58 pm

  109. The witness statement that I read was that the “ute” was on top of a prone Zim beating the crap out of him when a single gunshot was heard.

    Yes, from the accounts I’ve read, this is my hunch as to what actually happened. I guess I can’t know this is accurate, but the grass and blood corroborate this.

    That’s why I’m not calling for Zimmerman’s head. I’m merely criticizing his level of police-type activity. When I got my CHL course they tried to explain how that can be a problem.

    I think folks who use their rights still should do so proactively and smartly. I don’t mean as a legal matter, but as a good sense matter.

    Comment by Dustin (330eed) — 3/25/2012 @ 6:01 pm

  110. AD-RtR/OS! – What has happened (gasp!) to Florida’s crime stats since they revised their gun laws?

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/25/2012 @ 6:06 pm

  111. Getting the sh*t kicked out of you is not justification for use of deadly force… at least as I understand the law.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (8b9732) — 3/25/2012 @ 6:27 pm

  112. “Dave, of course its reasonable to report a suspicious person.”

    No, it isn’t. It’s reasonable to report a criminal act.

    It isn’t reasonable to report a kid walking down the street.

    It isn’t reasonable to tell the police that someone is on drugs when you have no evidence, whatsoever that that’s the case.

    Zimmerman had no reason whatsoever to call the police or chase, harrass and stalk Martin, and no reason to kill him.

    None.

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/25/2012 @ 6:34 pm

  113. Getting the sh*t kicked out of you is not justification for use of deadly force… at least as I understand the law.

    Arron Worthing has several great blog posts on this, its well worth reading the recent articles:

    http://allergic2bull.blogspot.com

    I think he is exactly right in the big picture of this also. In most car wrecks both drivers did something wrong, and this is definitely a carwreck.

    Comment by Kaisersoze (298188) — 3/25/2012 @ 6:43 pm

  114. Some outlets are trying to compare the Trayvon-Zimmerman tragedy to Emmett Till’s murder in 1955. For shame. Whatever happened in Sanford it was most certainly not Emmett Till redux, and it is a grave insult to our country and to Emmett Till and his brave mother’s legacy to suggest that the Florida killing is remotely the same situation. I can’t even find words to describe the sad and almost hopeless feelings for our nation this whole thing is leaving me with as it spins more and more out of control.

    Comment by elissa (e9c09f) — 3/25/2012 @ 6:44 pm

  115. “Getting the sh*t kicked out of you is not justification for use of deadly force… at least as I understand the law.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 3/25/2012 @ 6:27 pm

    You don’t understand the law. If you are in a reasonable fear of serious bodily injury, you may use deadly force to defend yourself.

    Comment by SPQR (26be8b) — 3/25/2012 @ 7:22 pm

  116. Actually, Col, when you’re on the losing end of an assault, and you fear for your life, in quite a few jurisdictions you have the right to defend yourself with deadly force.
    Since Zimmerman did not initiate the assault IMO, he had the right to use all available means to defend himself from the attack, an attack that the evidence noted in the initial police report was not going his way.

    Fl ‘s crime stats are mixed, but generally show a lesser amount (lessor increase and/or greater decrease) of crime when compared to national stats.

    Comment by AD-RtR/OS! (562f6f) — 3/25/2012 @ 7:23 pm

  117. It’s all a tragic set of coincidences, made rancid by the likes of nazguls like Sharpton

    http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article1221799.ece

    Comment by narciso (fdead2) — 3/25/2012 @ 7:32 pm

  118. See: Posted at 10:19 pm by Glenn Reynolds

    Comment by AD-RtR/OS! (562f6f) — 3/25/2012 @ 7:39 pm

  119. Actually, Col, when you’re on the losing end of an assault, and you fear for your life, in quite a few jurisdictions you have the right to defend yourself with deadly force.

    I don’t think that is the case under the Florida law. But I could be mistaken.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (420ed2) — 3/25/2012 @ 7:40 pm

  120. _______________________________________________

    I’ve had two posts during the past few hours disappear into the filter, but the most recent one contained text indicating Zimmerman during his younger years got into a bout with a police officer and, then some time later on, was cited by his ex-wife for physical abuse. So there is a dark side to Zimmerman, meaning that a large area of ambiguity exists when it comes to both him and Trayvon Martin.

    All of this is placed against the context of articles pointing out that the community where Zimmerman lives has seen an uptick in burglaries and even a shooting (apparently other than the one that Zimmerman was a part of) over the recent past, all where the perpetrators were described as black males.

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by Mark (31bbb6) — 3/25/2012 @ 7:41 pm

  121. Does anyone have the text of the Florida law?

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (420ed2) — 3/25/2012 @ 7:41 pm

  122. Well, if that isn’t the case in FL, why did the local police and prosecutor not file charges against Zimmerman at the time of the incident?
    It’s not like this happened Friday night last.

    Comment by AD-RtR/OS! (562f6f) — 3/25/2012 @ 7:44 pm

  123. Col., are you asking about the “Stand your ground” law or the basic law of self defense in Florida? The gun nuts and media are complaining about “stand your ground” but many others say that is not even applicable and the police seem to be looking at self defense rules.

    Comment by elissa (e9c09f) — 3/25/2012 @ 7:52 pm

  124. Chapter 776
    JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE
    View Entire Chapter
    776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
    (1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
    (a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
    (b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
    (2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
    (a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
    (b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
    (c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
    (d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
    (3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
    (4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
    (5) As used in this section, the term:
    (a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
    (b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
    (c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.

    Comment by Icy (5c3322) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:00 pm

  125. Colonel Haiku,

    Title XLVI (“Crimes”) of the Florida Statutes includes Chapter 776 entitled “Justifiable use of force.” Several sections of Chapter 776 may be relevant, including these two:

    Section 776.012 – “Use of force in defense of person.”

    Section 776.06 – “Deadly force.”

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:04 pm

  126. 2011 Florida Statutes CHAPTER 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

    776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

    (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
    (2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

    Comment by Icy (5c3322) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:04 pm

  127. We think alike, Icy.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:05 pm

  128. Here is a link to Florida Statute Section 776.013 – “Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.”

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:06 pm

  129. Q. What does a Black Panther’s child get for Christmas?
    A. Your bike.

    Comment by nk (dec503) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:07 pm

  130. Thanks, Icy and DRJ. I wanted to read those.

    I’ve heard at least one report that Zimmarmann was kicked badly enough in his face that it looked like his nose was broken.

    Who knows? Not me. But my hunch is that he reasonably believed he was preventing “great bodily harm”.

    A real tragedy, but if this is what happened, it’s not murder. I hope Obama has a sista souljah moment with Al Sharpton’s growing lynch mob, but I’m not optimistic.

    Comment by Dustin (330eed) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:08 pm

  131. This will be a story until it reaches critical mass for re-electing the current President. Law and justice flew out the window a couple of miles ago.

    Comment by Ag80 (b0b671) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:13 pm

  132. Also, since it seems to be all the rage at the moment, what the heck is a “white Hispanic?”

    I’ve read EEOC forms, news reports and all manner of literature for years and that is a new one.

    For years, we have had to have special classes of victims to make sure their rights are not violated. So what the heck do we do now?

    What if someone is a white-Asian-Pacific-African American? Other than winning golf tournaments.

    How will we understand who is oppressed with all the willy-nilly modifiers applied to the previously aggrieved citizens?

    Does the left have some sort of scorecard that ranks oppression based on a logical system?

    Right now, it looks as if African-American trumps Hispanic.

    So, what if an African-American woman kills a Hispanic man because he beat a Palestinian for insulting a Jew who was trying to stop a Muslim woman for going into an abortion clinic?

    We need some sort of scorecard.

    Comment by Ag80 (b0b671) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:36 pm

  133. Hispanic vs. black is dog bites man. White Hispanic, now that’s man bites dog.

    Comment by nk (dec503) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:45 pm

  134. what the heck is a “white Hispanic?” People who are genetically Caucasian and ethnically Hispanic. Or so says Wikipedia

    I wonder if this means that white South Africans are “White African-Americans” and if they can join the NBPP.

    Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:47 pm

  135. Also, since it seems to be all the rage at the moment, what the heck is a “white Hispanic?”

    Never heard it before. The media has tried hard to make this all about race, and that strain is evident here.

    Comment by Dustin (330eed) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:55 pm

  136. “I don’t think we know enough facts to say what happened here, let alone who was at fault.”

    Well, I think I do enough about it to call for the arrest and trial of George Zimmerman.

    Obviously.

    Otherwise, I wouldn’t be talking about it, since I only like to bloviate about things I’m familiar with.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/25/2012 @ 8:58 pm

  137. I can only guess that my friend Jorge, born in Mexico City with blue eyes, from a family that settled in Mexico in the late 1800s is not Hispanic? Despite the fact that his family came from Spain.

    Trying to pigeon-hole people based on race is stupid, corrupt and ignorant and it tires me to the depth of my soul.

    But politics are more important.

    That’s why I dislike the left.

    Comment by Ag80 (b0b671) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:06 pm

  138. This kind of fact pattern is quite literally a textbook example of why we still have, and rely upon, grand juries.

    In this case the Florida state prosecutors are certainly aware that federal prosecutors will be looking over their shoulders — albeit from a distance, because grand jury proceedings are confidential. Nevertheless, they will have a very strong incentive to bring to the grand jury all evidence that pertains in any way to this homicide — including everything pertaining to possible legal justifications like self defense, i.e., both evidence tending to inculpate and evidence tending to exonerate.

    It’s way, way too early to give up on “the system” functioning properly. I have no problem with the feds monitoring this for now, and we’ll all re-assess when we see if an indictment or a no-bill is returned. But the one thing I know for damn sure is that the President of the United States has no business putting his two cents in on this kind of controversy at this stage of the proceedings, ever. Obama is a disgrace to his office and to the profession he used to hold a license in.

    Comment by Beldar (f9f436) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:06 pm

  139. 1)Popping in here a moment to remind you all that there is a witness to Martin’s side of the encounter, for at least the first part–he was having a conversation on his cell phone with his girlfriend when he noticed he was being followed by Zimmerman, and thought Zimmerman was going to try to do something to him.

    So if Martin confronted Zimmerman in any fashion, he was defending himself in a fashion that Florida law (via the Stand Your Ground)would consider acceptable.
    2)There is at least one picture of Martin popping up frequently in the media which seems to be relatively recent–that is, it shows a kid who seems to be sixteen or so, wearing a hoodie, and not look very freshfaced and innocent at all.
    And the fact that he was suspended from school is making it onto the MSM>
    3)Florida’s SYG law, as applied, is rather favorable to defendants, and includes at least one incident which seems outrageous: drug deal gone bad, one side chases the other in autos at high speed, passenger in chasing car shoots several times at car being chased, and manages to kill the drive with one shoot. He was charged, but eventually walked free because it was held that SYG covered him. And there are a few others which, while less outrageous, would cause an outside observer to conclude that the shooter was not in any real danger even his action was ruled self defense. Compared to those cases, Zimmerman’s actions seem to be well within the parameters of self defense, despite what the legislator said.

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by JBS (1e4ef0) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:07 pm

  140. thank you, Stashiu. Akismet seems to be very hungry tonight.

    Comment by JBS (1e4ef0) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:12 pm

  141. “Dave Surls, I find that you substitute your speculation in this case for facts.”

    Every single available fact suggests that George Zimmerman is a nutcase who stalked, harrassed and then killed an unarmed kid, who was doing absolutely nothing wrong.

    No speculation required.

    The only reason we need to have a trial is to see whether or not there might be some, as yet, unreleased or undiscovered fact that could mitigate what George Zimmerman did.

    And, as all kinds of folks in positions of authority have pointed out, including some of the Republicans who authored Florida’s “stand your ground” statute, and the Governor (Jeb Bush) who signed it into law, this is not a case where the stand your ground concept can be applied.

    They’re right…and so am I.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:15 pm

  142. “What if someone is a white-Asian-Pacific-African American? Other than winning golf tournaments.”

    Ag80 – Add in Muslim, bisexual and transgendered to cover some more bases, then you’ve got yourself a real question.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:19 pm

  143. Idk if this was posted but it demolishes the storyline that is out there about him right now.

    http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by Noodles (3681c4) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:23 pm

  144. Every single available fact suggests that George Zimmerman is a nutcase who stalked, harrassed and then killed an unarmed kid, who was doing absolutely nothing wrong.

    What about the “single available fact” that an eyewitness saw Martin beating the crap out of Zimmerman seconds before the fatal shot was fired? How does that fit into your story?

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by Kaisersoze (298188) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:24 pm

  145. Thanks elissa, Icy and DRJ. That helps.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (420ed2) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:26 pm

  146. Every single available fact suggests that George Zimmerman is a nutcase who stalked, harrassed and then killed an unarmed kid, who was doing absolutely nothing wrong.

    There is a “single available fact” of an eyewitness seeing Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him senseless before the fatal shot was fired.

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by Kaisersoze (298188) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:29 pm

  147. For the purposes of government statistics, non-negroid Hispanics are classified as “white”, and then subdivided (in some cases) into Hispanic and Caucasian.

    Comment by Icy (5c3322) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:36 pm

  148. Mr. Surls, your opinion (#140) may well turn out to be correct after the wheels of justice have done their requisite grinding in this matter. I emphatically disagree, however, that the only reason for holding a trial is to see whether “there might be some, as yet, unreleased or undiscovered fact that could mitigate what George Zimmerman did.” The press reports, augmented somewhat by the blogosphere, include evidence both consistent and inconsistent with the self-defense hypothesis, and there are vast and vastly important parts of the story that aren’t touched one way or the other by what’s currently being reported. Even if I had the confidence in the accuracy, thoroughness, and fairness of the mainstream media that your statement implies — and I’m not sure you regularly hold that same degree of confidence; in fact, I’m pretty sure you don’t! — there are certain things, most crucial among them what Zimmerman’s own sworn testimony would be, that are not yet in the public domain. You’re willing to jump from “it seems to me based on what I read in the papers” to “proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt (including proving the inapplicability of legal defenses like self-defense).” Me, I’m a fan of grand juries, petit (trial) juries, judges, and appellate courts. So while I acknowledge that you’re entitled to your opinion and that it doesn’t seem unreasonable, you’ll perhaps forgive me for pointing out that it’s just the opinion of one far-off observer who quite properly admits to possibly incomplete information. That you’re persuaded, on this occasion, doesn’t much persuade me, despite my regard for your opinions in general.

    Comment by Beldar (f9f436) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:51 pm

  149. “So if Martin confronted Zimmerman in any fashion, he was defending himself in a fashion that Florida law (via the Stand Your Ground)would consider acceptable.”

    Yeah, that’s pretty close to the way it is all right, with one caveat.

    Martin had a right to defend himself against Zimmerman (not the other way around, according to what’s known about the case) and stand his ground IF he’s on his own property, OR if he’s in a place where he has a right to be.

    However, the shooting apparently (according to the police report) took place on a lawn between two private residences, neither one of which appears to belong to either Martin or Zimmerman, and it’s real unlikely either of them had any right to be there, which, if true (it’s not for sure, it just looks that way at this momenet, based on the police report), neither one of them could really claim they were just standing their ground. Although, you would probably cut Martin some slack on that one, because it looks like all he was trying to do was get away from Zimmerman, and that’s why he was in a place that it appears he had no right to be.

    It appears that Zimmerman pursued and confronted Martin without having any legitimate reason to do so, which completely blows away any chance of him claiming self-defense, or stand your ground.

    You can’t walk into a bank rob it, shoot a bank guard who points a pistol at you and then claim you were just defending yourself or standing your ground, and that’s pretty much what happened here.

    Zimmerman had NO legitimate reason to be bothering Martin, and, as a matter of fact, his 911 call is a clear and obvious violation of Florida law.

    Right off the bat, he should have been arrested for Misuse of the 911 system (he should have been arrested for that years ago, because he’s done it repeatedly according to police records), not to mention being charged with a murder that is directly connected to his unlawful acts.

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/25/2012 @ 9:55 pm

  150. “You’re willing to jump from “it seems to me based on what I read in the papers” to “proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt”.

    On that point, you’re in error.

    I want a trial where all facts can be laid out on the table, as best we can do it under our legal system, before its decided whether or not he’s guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

    IMO, he is, but there could be information not yet known or released that could contradict my opinion. And, I don’t want my opinion to decide the issue, in any case. I want a jury to do that, as per usual.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/25/2012 @ 10:04 pm

  151. The standard for taking a case to trial, technically, is probable cause. For an ethical and/or overwhelmed prosecutor, it’s prima facie case. Not to make some professional victims happy.

    Comment by nk (dec503) — 3/25/2012 @ 10:11 pm

  152. “…you’ll perhaps forgive me for pointing out that it’s just the opinion of one far-off observer who quite properly admits to possibly incomplete information. That you’re persuaded, on this occasion, doesn’t much persuade me, despite my regard for your opinions in general.”

    I would forgive you, but there’s nothing to forgive.

    And, I take your kind words as a very high compliment. So, thank you.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/25/2012 @ 10:11 pm

  153. Probable cause of guilt, prima facie case of guilt. Presumption of innocence.

    Comment by nk (dec503) — 3/25/2012 @ 10:13 pm

  154. Anyway, who cares whether Hispanics and blacks kill each other, to us white racists clinging to our guns and Bibles?

    Comment by nk (dec503) — 3/25/2012 @ 10:15 pm

  155. I’ve been, and remain, a fan, Mr. Surls.

    Comment by Beldar (f9f436) — 3/25/2012 @ 10:22 pm

  156. There is a blogger of some note, named Kim du Toit, who is a Naturalized-immigrant (US-Citizen) from South Africa.
    His family (Afrikaners) lived in South Africa for many generations.
    He encountered much resistance when he identified himself on a Census Form as an “African-American”.

    Comment by AD-RtR/OS! (562f6f) — 3/25/2012 @ 10:42 pm

  157. The New Black Panther Party – Because why should white democrats be the only ones to call for lynchings?

    Comment by Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 3/25/2012 @ 11:04 pm

  158. New-Civility FAIL

    Comment by Icy (5c3322) — 3/25/2012 @ 11:08 pm

  159. Every single available fact suggests that George Zimmerman is a nutcase who stalked, harrassed and then killed an unarmed kid, who was doing absolutely nothing wrong.

    No speculation required.

    Sure, except for all the facts that suggest differently.

    Martin wasn’t the one who screamed for help. Martin wasn’t the one on his back on the ground being pummeled.

    I’ll even grant you that Zimmerman was following the guy around. So f*cking what? I wasn’t aware that walking on the street following someone was a God Damn crime. Turning around and trying to beat the sh*t out of the person following you, however, is, and isn’t actually justified.

    Martin just happened to try to beat the sh*t out of a guy who had a gun. Had he not died, this would have been an important life lesson for him – “Don’t jump people in Florida, they might have a gun”.

    As it is, Martin’s only contribution to society should be as an object lesson.

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 3/25/2012 @ 11:08 pm

  160. Every single available fact suggests that George Zimmerman is a nutcase who stalked, harrassed and then killed an unarmed kid, who was doing absolutely nothing wrong.

    No speculation required.

    Sure, except for all the facts that suggest differently.

    Martin wasn’t the one who screamed for help. Martin wasn’t the one on his back on the ground being pummeled. Martin wasn’t the guy who’s face and back-of-head were all bloody.

    I’ll even grant you that Zimmerman was following the guy around. So f*cking what? I wasn’t aware that walking on the street following someone was a G0d D@mn crime. Turning around and trying to beat the sh*t out of the person following you, however, is a crime.

    Martin just happened to try to beat the sh*t out of a guy who had a gun. Had he not died, this would have been an important life lesson for him – “Don’t jump people in Florida, they might have a gun”.

    As it is, Martin’s only contribution to society should be as an object lesson.

    Comment by Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 3/25/2012 @ 11:10 pm

  161. Well, this discussion is quickly deteriorating.

    Comment by Icy (5c3322) — 3/25/2012 @ 11:30 pm

  162. “Martin wasn’t the one who screamed for help”

    Perhaps, but that’s completely irrelevant. It’s perfectly possible for person A to attack person B, and then have person A call for help. Even if it’s proven that Zimmerman called for help, it means exactly dick.

    “Sure, except for all the facts that suggest differently.”

    There aren’t any known facts that suggest differently. There simply is no question, based on those known facts, that Zimmerman went after Martin, without having any legitimate reason to do so.

    As a matter of fact, the entire train of events that resulted in Martin’s death began with an illegal act performed by Zimmerman.

    That hasn’t come up yet, but I can pretty much guarantee that it’s going to.

    “I’ll even grant you that Zimmerman was following the guy around. So f*cking what”

    Well, it’s illegal to stalk people without having a legitimate reason to do so, for starters, and Zimmerman had no legitimate reason to be stalking Martin. Period.

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/25/2012 @ 11:56 pm

  163. I’m having a hard time arguing, because the filter keeps grabbing people’s comments on this thread.

    Of course, some people would say, I have a hard time arguing any subject, due to severe cognitive impairment, so what’s the difference?

    :)

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 12:04 am

  164. I made a comment hours ago and still have seen neither hide nor hair of it…

    Comment by Gazzer (bfe961) — 3/26/2012 @ 12:27 am

  165. Gazzer, everything is cleared from the filters (that is going to be anyway… I keep a few from the banned folks for a while so Patterico can approve them if he chooses. Akismet deletes them eventually anyway if nothing is done to them.)

    I don’t see a comment from you, sorry. Normal internet gremlins I guess, not the filters.

    Comment by Stashiu3 (1764bd) — 3/26/2012 @ 12:33 am

  166. I will say that Akismet has been exceptionally hungry this weekend and I’m not sure why. And not targeting anyone specific because regular commenters are getting eaten just as much as drive-bys.

    (I know, the grammar on the second sentence sucks buttermilk through a straw. Not caring enough to fix it. Heh.)

    Comment by Stashiu3 (1764bd) — 3/26/2012 @ 12:35 am

  167. “Martin just happened to try to beat the sh*t out of a guy”

    That also is completely irrelevant when it comes to determining who assaulted who (or is it whom…I can never remember how that works).

    We had a case up here in Northern California awhile back, where a career criminal, thug broke into a 90 year old man’s house, and tried to rob him. The thug shot the old guy in the face, and the old guy proceeded to pop three caps into the perp, thereby coming out on top in the fracas.

    The fact that the old man got the better of the perp has exactly zero to do with who was doing the assaulting, who was in the wrong, or who had a right to defend themselves.

    In this case, an eyewitnesses said he saw two guys scrapping, and that it looked like Martin was getting the better of Zimmerman (although his statement was pretty vague, and he took off as quick as he could…that did sound like what he was saying)…and that means exactly nothing, except maybe that Martin was a better fistfighter.

    If you’re trying to say that means Martin assaulted Zimmerman, I’m afraid that ain’t going to fly.

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 12:35 am

  168. Buttermilk is a crime against humanity. It should be eaten by a spam filter.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 3/26/2012 @ 12:40 am

  169. “I will say that Akismet has been exceptionally hungry this weekend and I’m not sure why.”

    I thought maybe it had learned enough to realize that my comments really weren’t worth printing.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 12:54 am

  170. Stash,
    No problem, these things happen. And thanks for all you do around here also.

    Comment by Gazzer (bfe961) — 3/26/2012 @ 12:59 am

  171. “What about the “single available fact” that an eyewitness saw Martin beating the crap out of Zimmerman seconds before the fatal shot was fired? How does that fit into your story?”

    I answered that one in another post, but it went into the filter.

    Until it’s fished out (if ever), here’s the short version of my reply: In and of itself, That means absolutely nothing, unless you’re trying to figure out who the better fighter was.

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 3:41 am

  172. Too many people filling in huge gaps in information without any evidence.

    Remember what Dear Leader said about Major Hasan? That “we should not rush to judgement”? Well… that seems prudent in this case.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (1aa3e5) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:52 am

  173. ‘Remember what Dear Leader said about Major Hasan? That “we should not rush to judgement”?’

    No, but I remember El Jefe saying that we shouldn’t jump to any conclusions, and then in his very next statement…he jumped to all kinds of conclusions.

    But, that’s par for the course for El jefe, so I didn’t get too worked up about it.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:24 am

  174. He was feelin’ froggy… par for the course for el Narcisista. But he will always be el Magnifico in our hearts, no?

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (1aa3e5) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:34 am

  175. Sure, I get a thrill in my heart, and a tingle down my leg, every time El Magnifico makes one of his absurd pronouncements.

    What red-blooded American wouldn’t?

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:52 am

  176. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324,0,1232157,full.story

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by narciso (83bb81) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:56 am

  177. This might explain the circumstances;

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324,0,1232157,full.story

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by narciso (83bb81) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:57 am

  178. Dave Surls

    My neighborhood gets vandalized routinely by “utes” who live a few blocks away. As I have trouble sleeping, I routinely walk around the neighborhood with a camera and a flashlight taking pictures of all those who I don’t recognize and letting them know that their picture has been taken and their presence noted. The camera has an adapter that transmits the pictures to my computer so even if I am assaulted and the camera stolen, the pictures are going to remain available. Often, when they are belligerent, I follow them until they leave the property.

    Are you asserting that I am outside my rights to do so? If so, please explain what law I have violated and how you reach the conclusion that I do not have the right to follow people who do not live in my neighborhood as they walk through both public areas which we both have a right to be and private areas where they for sure have no right to be?

    BTW, those pictures and the knowledge that they are not anonymous have helped to reduce the incidents of vandalism dramatically over the past 4 years.

    Comment by Jay H Curtis (804124) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:50 am

  179. Dave, the kid’s entire twitter stream is still on Research.ly, though mom and dad took it down. There’s probably another stream under another name, as he made himself a lovely new one in December.

    @NO_LIMIT_NIGGA
    2 mths ago
    NEW NAME, NEW BACKGROUND, NEW TWEETCON, I MAKE CHANGS B4 NEW YEARS!

    I don’t know that it makes him out a thug, exactly; but he’s also not the pretty baby that’s been elevated to martyrdom.

    He hates his school, he took a swing at a bus driver if a friend’s tweet is to be believed, and got high on a regular basis.

    You can see for yourself.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:08 am

  180. In my neighborhood there are no gun restrictions. If a neighbor noticed an undesired attentiveness and happened to empty their shotgun in the general direction of the attendor heavenward nothing would come of it, not even a casual mention at a block party.

    We take care of our own.

    Comment by gary gulrud (d88477) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:10 am

  181. Obama is leading this lynch mob.

    Comment by AZ Bob (1c9631) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:23 am

  182. The NY Times is calling Zimmerman a “white Hispanic”
    in order to fit its bias.

    I wonder if he played lacrosse or went to Duke?

    Comment by AZ Bob (1c9631) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:31 am

  183. #176, First it was George Bush, then it was Wall Street, then it was Chrysler Bond Holders …

    Comment by Bill (af584e) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:34 am

  184. #177, but of course. Just like Obama is a White Kenyan American.

    Comment by Bill (af584e) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:35 am

  185. “My neighborhood gets vandalized routinely by “utes” who live a few blocks away.”

    You’re getting raided by Indians?

    I thought that went out with high buttoned shoes.

    “Are you asserting that I am outside my rights to do so?”

    Yeah. You have no right to do that. It’s called stalking, and it’s against the law in most states, including Florida.

    ‘(2) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows or harasses another person commits the offense of stalking, a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.’

    If you go around doing that, and someone is bothered by it, they could press charges against you (at least in Florida where the crime took place, or in California where I live), so I wouldn’t do that if I was you.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:14 am

  186. It’s called stalking

    Care to quote the statute for this assertion?

    Comment by JD (318f81) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:22 am

  187. “He hates his school”

    Likewise. That’s why I dropped out of high school in 1971.

    Luckily for me, no one has yet advanced the fact that I hated school (with a deep and abiding passion) as a possible justification for shooting me.

    Hypothetical discussion…

    Guy 1: Hey, did you hear somebody capped, Surls?

    Guy 2: Fuck him. He hated school. The bastard had it coming.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:24 am

  188. “Care to quote the statute for this assertion?”

    Wasn’t once enough?

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:30 am

  189. Oops, missed that. Seems to fall short on the malicious ad repeated portions. But other than that …

    Comment by JD (318f81) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:30 am

  190. “Seems to fall short on the malicious ad repeated portions.”

    I don’t think I’d care to test that part out in court, JD.

    I’d rather just not follow and bother people like the law says, just to be on the safe side.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:34 am

  191. ________________________________________________

    Yeah. You have no right to do that. It’s called stalking, and it’s against the law in most states, including Florida.

    You sound like one of those idiotic liberal judges who in LA have been ruling in favor of groups (eg, the ACLU) or individuals representing homeless folk, and fostering chaotic, filthy, lawless streets in the process.

    The dumb liberal judges, of course, at the end of the day are able to run off to some wonderful, safe, clean community miles away, leaving behind a huge mess — both literally and figuratively — for others to contend with.

    But such people’s hearts are in the right place, full of beautiful compassion, tolerance and sophistication.

    Comment by Mark (31bbb6) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:45 am

  192. I don’t think I’d care to test that part out in court, JD.

    Why? Failing to meet 2 of the 3 standards in the law should put you in a pretty solid position.

    Comment by JD (318f81) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:50 am

  193. “You sound like one of those idiotic liberal judges…”

    Ouch.

    That one stung.

    It’s not really true, of course. Whoever heard of a liberal judge who actually cites to a law?

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:51 am

  194. “Why? Failing to meet 2 of the 3 standards in the law should put you in a pretty solid position.”

    Go ahead and test it, if you want to. But, I would advise against it. And, I would definitely advise against telling a judge that you have a RIGHT to follow people if you want to…’cause that ain’t going to fly.

    Trust me.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 9:01 am

  195. I wonder if we can find any evidence of malice in the (possible) stalking and (definite) shooting of Trayvon Martin?

    “These assholes always get away,”–George Zimmerman

    Lordy, lordy. I just felt a little tingle running up my mens rea.

    [Found in filter.]

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 9:17 am

  196. I suppose you can point to where I talked about RIGHTS?

    Anyone see the Chicago Tribune article about this? It seems many of the facts, as previously reported, are in question.

    Comment by JD (e5c06b) — 3/26/2012 @ 9:23 am

  197. Dave Surls–I don’t know where you live and I am not asking you to say because it’s irrelevant. But in lots of places there are official volunteer “neighborhood watch” groups or “guardian angel” organizations who work within certain known parameters. They operate with the knowledge of, and with the blessing of, regular law enforcement (and especially with the blessing of their neighbors and property owners including local businesses). They keep an eye out for unusual or suspicious activity and call the police when they believe they see it.

    Clearly, this watchfulness or mindfulness may result in multiple 911 calls from any individual “neighborhood watch” person over a period of months or years. Probably some of the 911 calls end up being nothing-burgers after the police arrive and check them out. Probably many of the “neighborhood watch” 911 calls over the years have in fact prevented serious crimes. Do you consider citizens such as I have described who are attempting to help or augment a police force to be stalkers? Do you view them as vigilantes?

    Comment by elissa (dea0c2) — 3/26/2012 @ 9:48 am

  198. Dave, it’s not stalking to call in about a suspicious person hanging around your subdivision.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 3/26/2012 @ 9:50 am

  199. Chances kid looked drugged out? At least fair. The kid enjoyed a manrijuana habit.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 3/26/2012 @ 9:52 am

  200. “(2) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows or harasses another person commits the offense of stalking”

    Well, it isn’t malicious, so I’m good…..

    Before I started doing this, my vehicles had either been vandalized or stolen 14 times in 17 years. Since I have been doing this, not even once. I will take my chances.

    For the record, I don’t usually see the same kids more than once or twice as the idea of getting photographed drinking in the private park, doing drugs in the bushes that line the street or having sex on the playground does seem to deter most of them from repeat incidents.

    As for the legality of it, “then the law is an ass”.

    The stalking laws are in place to stop crazies from harassing people. I seriously doubt that any district attorney is going to risk his re-election by prosecuting someone doing something as innocuous as taking pictures of people who are where they have no right to be. I am rather counting on that.

    San Diego County is a rather conservative place when it comes to stuff like this. Now if we could only elect a Sheriff who would issue CCW’s to other than just personal friends, political supporters or members of the police agencies. I don’t want one personally but I believe that if more people were carrying, there would be less crime. So far, there has been no evidence to the contrary.

    Comment by Jay H Curtis (804124) — 3/26/2012 @ 9:53 am

  201. top tips:

    http://www.ehow.com/how_5212285_report-suspicious-person.html

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 3/26/2012 @ 9:54 am

  202. “Dave, it’s not stalking to call in about a suspicious person hanging around your subdivision.”

    True enough.

    However, following someone with malicious intent, after you’ve been told not to is.

    Calling 911 to report a “suspicious” person engaged in the heinous act of walking down the street while black, is an entirely different crime.

    “(13) MISUSE OF 911 OR E911 SYSTEM; PENALTY.—911 and E911 service must be used solely for emergency communications by the public. Any person who accesses the number 911 for the purpose of making a false alarm or complaint or reporting false information that could result in the emergency response of any public safety agency; any person who knowingly uses or attempts to use such service for a purpose other than obtaining public safety assistance; or any person who knowingly uses or attempts to use such service in an effort to avoid any charge for service, commits a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.”

    [Found in filter.]

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 10:00 am

  203. What was suspicious about this kid? From what I’ve read he probably fit in at this ‘condo’ complex as well as anyone else did. Did he do something suspicious? Break into anything? have boltcutter or a crowbar?

    Why is he suspicious? Because he looked like a punk (AKA most insecure kids these days)?

    I’m just curious what facts people are relying on to say he was a suspicious person. From the limited info we’ve got, I think Zimm was acting more strangely. That doesn’t justify the lynch mob or a prison sentence and the racial whining is ridiculous.

    My hunch is that both Zimm and Martin thought they were defending themselves from a scary attacker and both wouldn’t have acted that way had they understood the other ‘suspicious’ person.

    [Found in filter.]

    Comment by Dustin (330eed) — 3/26/2012 @ 10:02 am

  204. If Ed Schultz had a son, would he look like George Zimmerman?

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/26/2012 @ 10:07 am

  205. “I suppose you can point to where I talked about RIGHTS?”

    That’s directed at everyone, not just you.

    Jay Curtis seemed to think that he has a right to follow people, and I can assure everyone that that’s not the case.

    At least not in California and Florida.

    Not only do you not have a right to do that, but doing it can be considered a crime called stalking.

    And, it looks to me like George Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon Martin (who in turn was just walking down the street…and trying his damndest to avoid Zimmerman) right before zimmerman killed Martin.

    And, that ain’t too cool.

    [Found in filter.]

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 10:15 am

  206. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326,0,6927332.story

    This does not square very well with Surls’ assertions, and the MFM narrative.

    [Found in filter.]

    Comment by JD (e5c06b) — 3/26/2012 @ 10:36 am

  207. Roger Champion, black man beaten to death in Florida not so long ago. I’ve been trying to find out if anybody’s been held accountable. I suppose so, but I haven’t found it. Same bunch beat a black girl so badly she suffered a broken leg, among other injuries.
    Difference? Blacks did it.
    The libs are so anxious to find white racists thaty they’re trying to make do with a hispanic.
    Means there isn’t much white racism, if this is all they have to go on.

    Comment by Richard Aubrey (a75643) — 3/26/2012 @ 10:52 am

  208. There’s just something so twisted about the “New Black Panthers” publicly calling for a lynch mob.

    How times have changed.

    Comment by John T (77fddb) — 3/26/2012 @ 11:02 am

  209. There aren’t any known facts that suggest differently.

    No, there are. They are called “All of the witnesses”.

    But hey, who cares about whether people saw the little thug beating the cr*p out of someone.

    Comment by Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 3/26/2012 @ 11:31 am

  210. I tried to post a link to the articles that directly contradict the assertion and MFM narrative, but askimet is hungry.

    Comment by JD (6a2c58) — 3/26/2012 @ 11:38 am

  211. More on this case from the Orlando Sentinel:

    “Police: Zimmerman says Trayvon decked him with one blow then began hammering his head.”

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 3/26/2012 @ 12:03 pm

  212. Dave Surls, the bottom line after all your text is that you still are substituting your speculation for facts, and what you claim are Zimmerman’s crimes don’t match the facts either.

    Comment by SPQR (26be8b) — 3/26/2012 @ 12:07 pm

  213. http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/former-naacp-leader-accuses-sharpton-and-jackson-of-exploiting-trayvon-martin/

    Interesting

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by vor2 (6c8528) — 3/26/2012 @ 12:19 pm

  214. 180. A honeymoon in Firenza was instructive on the direction we are taking.

    The Polizia occasion situations of interest to the government on whose behalf they represent. They are there as much to enforce conformity on law abiding citizens as protect society from reprobates.

    The Carabinieri protect citizens’ rights.

    The police in my small corner perform the latter function, just a half-hour away the former is somewhat characteristic.

    Comment by gary gulrud (d88477) — 3/26/2012 @ 12:44 pm

  215. There is now an updated Chi Tribune article with this headline:

    Trayvon Martin case: Martin was the aggressor, police sources say

    police sources say Martin was the aggressor on Feb. 26, knocking Zimmerman to the ground with a single punch and then climbing on top of the 28-year-old neighborhood watch captain and slamming the back of his head into the ground. Police say this account, given by Zimmerman, is supported by eyewitnesses, according to the Sentinel’s report.

    One such witness reportedly told police that he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, striking the man, while Zimmerman cried out for help. The attack left Zimmerman bloodied, police sources told the Sentinel, and led him to fire at Martin in self-defense.

    Police say Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a fat lip and confirm that the back of his head was cut. He received first aid at the scene but refused to go to the hospital and received medical treatment the following day,

    Zimmerman told police he he’d lost sight of Martin and was heading back to his car when the youth suddenly stepped into his path. According to the Sentinel, Martin asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cellphone. Martin then said something like, “Well, you do now” and punched him

    This information doesn’t make the senseless killing any easier to accept, or make Trayvon any less dead, but it does seem to start to bring some balance and facts to the one sided narrative which have been sorely missing.

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by elissa (dea0c2) — 3/26/2012 @ 12:51 pm

  216. Seems to be absolutely no rhyme or reason to what’s getting filtrated in this particular thread. I don’t see any common words, etc., in the posts being caught and then released from the filter. Stash, do you have any insights yet as to what’s prompting it?

    Comment by elissa (dea0c2) — 3/26/2012 @ 1:10 pm

  217. 211. Also no rhyme nor reason to what seems to make people think they are ‘conservative’.

    Do I disagree with everything Chrissie Mathews says and think Bruce Springsteen is a talentless senior citizen, find Eric Holder a prosimian and BHO a misplaced Shinola Spokesmodel?

    By golly, I must be a ‘conservative’. Gotta tell Mom.

    Comment by gary gulrud (d88477) — 3/26/2012 @ 1:18 pm

  218. When is Urkel going to comment on the Miss. state murder? Drudge has the story. Honky shot dead and three brothers fled the scene, caught on camera. Waiting for Sharpton, Obama, the black panthers, jackson and others to talk about justice. Hmmm, whitey didn’t look like Obama’s son though and Whitey not one of Holder’s “people”. Come one liberal women with white guilt, vote again for hope and change. Afterall, Obama is soooo groovy and does with with TOTUS.

    Comment by Calypso Louis Farrakhan (d32e4c) — 3/26/2012 @ 1:34 pm

  219. Wait a sec… Machinist wants spam in buttermilk? Interesting combo.

    ;)

    Comment by Stashiu3 (1764bd) — 3/26/2012 @ 2:01 pm

  220. Comment by elissa — 3/26/2012 @ 1:10 pm

    Not a clue… I thought it might be direct references to the name somehow, but several haven’t mentioned anyone by name at all. No pattern I can see.

    Comment by Stashiu3 (1764bd) — 3/26/2012 @ 2:21 pm

  221. Comment by elissa — 3/26/2012 @ 1:10 pm

    Seems to be absolutely no rhyme or reason to what’s getting filtrated in this particular thread. I don’t see any common words, etc., in the posts being caught and then released from the filter. Stash, do you have any insights yet as to what’s prompting it?

    Comment by Stashiu3 — 3/26/2012 @ 2:21 pm

    Not a clue… I thought it might be direct references to the name somehow, but several haven’t mentioned anyone by name at all. No pattern I can see.

    What is it – you don’t understand how the spam filter works, or how to change what it is doing?

    is it outsourced? Is the outsopurcing different for each thread?

    It could be, of course, you are being hacked, and whoever is doing it, is more concerned about this thread than other threads. Maybe somebody doesn’t wnat to mention the publicity about this where it shows up ands where to doesn’t..

    When did this start?

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 3/26/2012 @ 2:32 pm

  222. Spam deep fried in a buttermilk batter would not be so bad.

    Comment by JD (e5c06b) — 3/26/2012 @ 2:33 pm

  223. At least this didn’t get stopped.

    Let me try “New York Daily News”

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/black-panther-rage-10g-capture-trayvon-killer-article-1.1050370?localLinksEnabled=false

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 3/26/2012 @ 2:34 pm

  224. Maybe it’s just a badly acting spam filter.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 3/26/2012 @ 2:34 pm

  225. Comment by John T — 3/26/2012 @ 11:02 am

    There’s just something so twisted about the “New Black Panthers” publicly calling for a lynch mob.

    Not a lynch mob. Crosshairs in a gunsight.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 3/26/2012 @ 2:35 pm

  226. Sammy,

    I don’t think the filter problem is a conspiracy, hacking or anything strange. The filter is set to moderate comments with specific words. Over the years a lot of words have accumulated in it, and certain stories have more of those words. For example, anything with p-o-k-e-r or c-a-s-i-n-o will set it off because many of the spammers include links to Vegas-style websites.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 3/26/2012 @ 2:43 pm

  227. Ogabe populates urban America with body doubles.

    New for Campaign 2012, Obama hoodies.

    Comment by gary gulrud (d88477) — 3/26/2012 @ 3:09 pm

  228. What is it – you don’t understand how the spam filter works, or how to change what it is doing?
    Comment by Sammy Finkelman — 3/26/2012 @ 2:32 pm

    Yes, I understand how it works. I have a limited amount of time and energy these days, and not enough of either to look through filter parameters just now.

    Fortunately, someone else was able to sort through the keywords and figured out what was what. The problems should cease now.

    Comment by Stashiu3 (1764bd) — 3/26/2012 @ 3:25 pm

  229. Also some pharmaceuticals.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 3/26/2012 @ 3:32 pm

  230. “This does not square very well with Surls’ assertions”

    I don’t see where it doesn’t square with what I’ve said.

    Though, that is the first time I’ve heard that Martin was suspended from school for having an empty bag (that once contained marijuana).

    You don’t get to shoot people for that, btw.

    Since his parents aren’t trying to deny it, I am inclined to believe that. Don’t really see how it’s relevant to the points I’m making though.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 3:34 pm

  231. Dave,

    Assuming these reports are correct, do you believe slamming someone’s head against the ground or sidewalk could reasonably result in fear of great bodily harm? If so, the use of deadly force might be justified under the Florida statute.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 3/26/2012 @ 3:43 pm

  232. My experience with everyday hispanics (as opposed to activist hispanics) is that Mexicans, Dominicans, Cubans could all give a rats behind about hispanics other than their own… so a half Peruvian?
    blah blah blah
    I’m trying to think of a hispanic group that would care…

    Comment by SteveG (e27d71) — 3/26/2012 @ 3:51 pm

  233. Painted Jaguar: Hmmm.

    I don’t know about you humans in America, but if I read a classified ad in the “By the Amazon Times” to take captive of a given person “dead or alive” for a fee, I would think it be criminal, even if the “given person” was a hedgehog that tricked me.

    I think my mummy would agree, and would expect the president of whichever country was involved (more than one, counting the rivers of the Amazon basin) to make a very clear statement about this (instead of mumbling about reassuring former KGB operatives of his intentions).

    But, hey, I’m just a Jaguar operating with basic common sense.

    Comment by Painted Jaguar (a sockpuppet) (3d3f72) — 3/26/2012 @ 3:52 pm

  234. Since the shooting occurred a month ago, I’m looking to the standard question of who benefits from ginning up national outrageous outrage at this point.

    Since I can’t trust the media to accurately this story any more than I can any other, I don’t believe any media account enough to render any firm judgement on the “facts” of the case nor do I believe is any other outside party.

    I prefer to let the legal process take its course, of which there will be plenty of scrutiny now at both the state any federal level.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/26/2012 @ 3:56 pm

  235. cool tee shirt on drudge….. a yoot wearing picture of honky zimmerman and words “pussy ass cracker”. mommy dearest now seeking to trademark martyred son’s name. you rethuglicans better vote for justice and obama or there will cities burning and a race war. perhaps blacks are pleased with 50% unemployment among teens and a 67% increase in food stamp recipients under their savior messiah obama. wonder what the spin would be if zimmerman had been killed or was a black hispanic illegal alien?

    Comment by Calypso Louis Farrakhan (d32e4c) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:01 pm

  236. Dave, you do sometimes “get” to shoot people who are slamming your head into the pavement and breaking the bones in your face.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:01 pm

  237. “Dave Surls, the bottom line after all your text is that you still are substituting your speculation for facts.”

    No, I’m not.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:02 pm

  238. I think following a suspicious person, who spots you and turns tail, to see where he went, is maybe not the most prudent thing, but it certainly is not a crime.

    I think it’s unlikely that Z had displayed his weapon, else the kid wouldn’t have attacked him.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:03 pm

  239. One must assume that an autopsy was performed on Trayvon Martin. I am not aware that results have been released. A proven presence (or proven lack) of intoxicants or drugs in his system may go a long way in ascertaining if Trayvon’s outward demeanor, behavior, or judgment could have been affected by something other than skittles that fateful night.

    Comment by elissa (dea0c2) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:08 pm

  240. “if Trayvon’s outward demeanor, behavior, or judgment could have been affected by something other than skittles that fateful night.”

    elissa – Is skittles a code word or something? I’m not up on the current hipster talk.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:24 pm

  241. It’s just as real, as ‘killem’ was, recycled on Julianne’s bender;

    http://minx.cc/?post=327838

    Comment by narciso (83bb81) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:24 pm

  242. “Dave, you do sometimes “get” to shoot people who are slamming your head into the pavement and breaking the bones in your face.”

    I’ll go along with that. but this isn’t one of those sometimes as far as I can tell.

    “When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.”

    “Paramedics gave him first aid but he said he did not need to go to the hospital.”–Chicago Tribune

    Doesn’t sound too serious to me. I’ve had that happen a few times myself. Didn’t feel like I needed to pull out my pop gun and start shooting folks.

    Even if Zimmerman was totally in the right (which is complete baloney), getting socked in the nose doesn’t gve you the right to start shooting people.

    “Trayvon Martin case: Martin was the aggressor, police sources say”

    Well, that’s what Zimmerman claims, but the facts don’t bear that out.

    Zimmerman was chasing Martin (without having a legitimate reason to do so, probably in violation of the law, and against the instructions of the police, who are probably familiar with the stalking laws), not the other way around. Martin was just trying to get away from Zimmerman, Obviously, unless the reports are wrong (could be), Zimmerman was the aggressor, not Martin.

    And the fact that an eyewitness has said that he saw them fighting, and that Martin was getting the better of Zimmerman (to paraphrase what the witness said) changes all that not one iota.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:26 pm

  243. This is a truly unfortunate situation, but how does it deserve any more – or less – attention than that 14 year old girl in the Chicago suburb killed by the burglar, or the 13 year old Kansas City kid set upon, doused with gasoline and set on fire earlier this month, or countless other racially-charged incidents? It doesn’t and race-hucksters like Jackson, Sharpton, Farrakhan and the NBPP should be roundly condemned for their cynical attempts to promote racial hatred and their own sorry-assed careers.

    And so should Barack Obama.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (7fd04b) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:35 pm

  244. Someone has completely bought the MFM narrative. Evidence that contradicts their assumptions is simply ignored, and that which was previously asserted, is simply re-asserted as fact.

    Comment by JD (e5c06b) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:38 pm

  245. In their rush to make this a white on black hate crime, they overlooked that Z is Hispanic. Is there an epidemic of Hispanic on black hate crime?

    Comment by JD (e5c06b) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:40 pm

  246. “We’re not axing for an eye for an eye, we’re axing for justice, justice, justice.”

    http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (7fd04b) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:43 pm

  247. “elissa – Is skittles a code word or something?”

    It’s candy. According to the reports I’ve seen, that’s what the kid had on him when he was shot.

    A bag of candy, a can of ice tea, a cellphone.

    No dope. No weapons. Just a bag of candy.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:43 pm

  248. daley–

    ==Trayvon Martin hoodie and Skittles rallies spread across nation==headline from the Christian Science Monitor

    Here’s where that came from: The story is that he had gone to the store to get ice tea and skittles candy and had some on him when he died. Many of the people attending rallies have been waving bags of skittles in protest. Some websites have said the items were stolen, but that may be just internet rumor. I assume the police and the store know whether the items in question were rung up or not.

    Comment by elissa (dea0c2) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:45 pm

  249. Wasn’t the neighborhood where this incident took place a “gated community” (I thought I’d read that)? Did either of these guys belong there?

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (7fd04b) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:50 pm

  250. Dave and elissa – Skittles isn’t code for brand name ecstasy or crystal or something? Are you sure?

    I know it’s a kind of candy. I’ve even had it before.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:50 pm

  251. Trayvon Martin was suspended from school in October in an incident in which he was found in possession of women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that a schools security staffer described as a “burglary tool,” The Miami Herald has learned.

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:51 pm

  252. Both had reason to be there…

    “Zimmerman, a self-styled neighborhood watchman, spotted Trayvon leaving his father’s fiance’s house in an Orlando-area gated community around 7 p.m. on Feb 26. and decided to follow him because he thought the boy looked suspicious.”

    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/george-zimmerman-reportedly-told-police-shot-trayvon-martin-teen-punched-article-1.1051015#ixzz1qGp1Oz1r

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (7fd04b) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:56 pm

  253. Dave Surls writes: “Doesn’t sound too serious to me. I’ve had that happen a few times myself.

    Having one’s head slammed on concrete does not sound serious to you? You tempt me greatly to write a smart alec response at this point, Surls. Tempt me greatly.

    But the reality is that your no doubt astute medical expertise aside, that is a risk of serious bodily injury.

    Comment by SPQR (26be8b) — 3/26/2012 @ 4:59 pm

  254. Sorry daleyrocks, you’ll have to find someone else to be your “go-to” person for deciphering anything related to street drugs or hipster slang! (But check in with me if you ever want to discuss Mozart, the White Sox, or yummy broccoli recipes.)

    Comment by elissa (dea0c2) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:01 pm

  255. ABC adds something new: “Trayvon Martin Shooter Told Cops Teenager Went For His Gun.”

    The report also says “Al Sharpton said today that he and other protesters intend to ‘occupy’ Sanford on Easter weekend and pray that the city arrests Zimmerman.” Sanford’s Mayor says “the city today is a tinder box.”

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:01 pm

  256. The 12 pieces of women’s jewelry, and watch, were impounded by police detectives.

    It sure would be something if they end up traced to Zimmerman’s neighborhood.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:06 pm

  257. Dave – you haven’t heard. His nose was broken and the back of his head was rawther banged up.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:07 pm

  258. “Sorry daleyrocks, you’ll have to find someone else to be your “go-to” person for deciphering anything related to street drugs or hipster slang!”

    elissa – Gotcha. How about fashion? I think I’ve got a lime green velour jumpsuit left over from the 70s that has a zip on/off hood. Would that be appropriate to wear to one of the above mentioned rallies?

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:07 pm

  259. “Doesn’t sound too serious to me. I’ve had that happen a few times myself.”

    I wanna party with you, cowboy!

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (7fd04b) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:14 pm

  260. “This is a truly unfortunate situation”

    Yes it is, and a 17 year old kid is dead for no good reason that i can see.

    And, the situation needs to be resolved in a public trial, as far as I’m concerned.

    If a jury decides, after all the pertinent facts have been presented in open court, that Zimmerman isn’t guilty of anything, then so be it.

    But, he ought to be charged and tried. This is a long way from being a slam dunk case of self-defense, that can be dismissed out of hand by the local authorities.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:15 pm

  261. Now, where on earth, are you going to find an impartial jury, after this, poisoning the well,
    has been quite thorough,

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2715538/dont-rush-to-judgment-in-trayvon.html

    Comment by narciso (83bb81) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:22 pm

  262. Is there an epidemic of Hispanic on black hate crime?

    – Mostly in prison, and it goes both ways.

    Comment by Icy (71f821) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:23 pm

  263. Yes it is, and a 17 year old kid is dead for no good reason that i can see.

    Assuming he attacked Zimmerman as described – as Z was retreating to his car, having stopped looking to see where Martin went –

    And was severely beating him, and by Zimmerman’s account went for the gun, that’s the reason he is dead.

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:26 pm

  264. “I wanna party with you, cowboy!”

    LOL.

    I don’t do that any more. It’s been many a decade since I rolled around on the floor getting punched in the face in a bar brawl.

    The last time it happened, I mouthed off to some guy, who took offense (don’t ask me what I said, I flat out don’t remember). He popped me right in the kisser, and the next thing I know we’re rolling around, flailng away in the mud and the blood and the beer.

    One of my buddies jumped in, and I accidently punched him in the mouth. He looks at me and says “What the hell did you do that for?” (that part I do remember). A question to which i had no good answer.

    After it was all over, and I’d sobered up, I realized that if I couldn’t even hit the right guy, I wasn’t really cut out for bar brawlng, so I gave it up for more esoteric pursuits.

    There was a time when my face could stop a fist with the best of them, but those days are long gone.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:26 pm

  265. I don’t believe prosecutors can ethically bring charges just because someone dies, or people are upset, or to prove someone didn’t commit a crime. Prosecutors can only bring charges if there is probable cause to believe and evidence a crime has been committed.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:29 pm

  266. It’s not aggression, assault, or a crime, to get out of a car to see where a suspicious person went. Even if it were somehow to be interpreted as a provocation, that provocation had ended.

    Would it change your mind to know that the kid WAS up to no good? That isn’t what determines the reasonableness of the suspicious person report, and that isn’t what determines whether Zimmerman acted according to law in getting out of his car to see where the kid went, but it seems to make a difference with you.

    If Marting WERE committing burglaries as a hobby, though not right in the middle of one but iWAS high, looking into cars and home windows would that change your view?

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:31 pm

  267. Because what if it should turn out that he has been responsible for some of the break ins that had prompted Zimmerman to keep an eye out for suspicious persons?

    Comment by Sarahw (b0e533) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:32 pm

  268. #254, Comment by elissa — 3/26/2012 @ 5:01 pm

    “Mozart??” Opera??

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:38 pm

  269. Well, that’s what Zimmerman claims, but the facts don’t bear that out.

    Zimmerman was chasing Martin (without having a legitimate reason to do so, probably in violation of the law, and against the instructions of the police, who are probably familiar with the stalking laws), not the other way around. Martin was just trying to get away from Zimmerman, Obviously, unless the reports are wrong (could be), Zimmerman was the aggressor, not Martin.

    You are either trolling, or a complete moron.

    You are basing your opinion on news reports, and dismissing as lies things like ALL THE WITNESSES and THE POLICE REPORT.

    Where the f*ck are you getting these “facts” you think make Zimmerman some sort of clod-blooded killer?

    He followed him? Oh god NO!! So following someone makes it perfectly OK for someone to try to beat the sh*t out of you?

    Seriously, you’re acting like a total f*ckwit.

    Comment by Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:42 pm

  270. “Would it change your mind to know that the kid WAS up to no good?”

    As far as I can tell, all he was doing was walking down the street.

    Zimmerman on the other hand was misuing 911 services (a crime), making baseless and likely false accusations against Martin, stalking Martin (another crime), and he finally ended up shooting Martin to death (a big old crime, unless it’s somehow justifiable).

    That’s how it appears to me.

    If you have actual evidence that suggests that Martin was “up to no good”, as claimed by Zimmerman, feel free to show it.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:47 pm

  271. Bernie Goldberg just raised some good questions… he mentioned 9 month old baby boy Delric Miller shot dead barely a month ago with an AK-47 in Detroit. Why no comments from Sharpton?… no outrage from Jesse Jackson?… no outreach by Barack Obama?… certainly no mention by the national media.

    Why is that? The answer is that it doesn’t further the liberal agenda and none of them want to put a harsh spotlight on black on black violent crime and the dysfunction in certain segments of the black community.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (7fd04b) — 3/26/2012 @ 5:58 pm

  272. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=9%20month%20old%20baby%20shot%20in%20detroit%20driveby&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CC0QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdetroit.cbslocal.com%2F2012%2F02%2F20%2Fbaby-shot-and-killed-in-detroit%2F&ei=_A5xT4DdLsikiQKhveWnDA&usg=AFQjCNEnKQmJ2tc_ZdL2CBTAS3oVSNx8Ug&cad=rja

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (7fd04b) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:01 pm

  273. Quite a mouth on that tweeter…

    http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/the-daily-caller-obtains-trayvon-martins-tweets/

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (7fd04b) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:04 pm

  274. Dave Surls,
    I think the purpose of self defense is to prevent someone from doing severe damage to you. Was he supposed to let this 6’2″(?) football player fracture his skull or put out an eye before he could defend himself? Must a woman let an attacker damage her before she can defend herself?

    If I think someone is following me do I have the right to ambush him, initiate a violent assault, and get on top of him and beat him? Really? Can I beat him to death or just put him in the hospital?

    Forgive me but you seem to have invested yourself so heavily in this position that as evidence comes out you are not able to consider it rationally. I think Zimmerman has some blame to face but your position is beginning to look silly. I do hope a fair investigation takes place and the DOJ does not try to inject themselves into it for political purposes.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:04 pm

  275. Quite a “handle” too…

    “NO_LIMIT_NIGGA”

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (7fd04b) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:07 pm

  276. Obama 2012 is tweeting about its hooded sweatshirts.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:09 pm

  277. Fellow Travelers of the World Unite!

    http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/socialists-com-and-communists-com-redirect-to-obama-campaign-website/

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (7fd04b) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:11 pm

  278. Comment by DRJ — 3/26/2012 @ 5:29 pm

    Thank you for a note of reason here. I always appreciate your input into any conversation. Sometimes people let their emotions dictate their responses when logic should prevail. We can always count on you for a logical and well reasoned reply.

    I believe the standard is “innocent until proven guilty”. It seems that some have jumped right to the lynching and to heck with the rest of the formalities.

    Comment by Jay H Curtis (804124) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:11 pm

  279. “Because what if it should turn out that he has been responsible for some of the break ins…”

    Note to SPQR: that, my friend is speculation. Just in case you want an example.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:14 pm

  280. I don’t know if it rises to the level of a hate crime, but hispanics and blacks are in a major battle for power. From prison, to the streets, to city council.
    LA is in the process of redistricting and historically black areas have become predominately latino (mexican) and blacks fear losing their representatives… and the black incumbents are bending over to accomodate latinos in order to get reelected.

    Truth is that mexicans I know are dismissive of blacks. Words like lazy, criminal etc are used like as if it is foregone fact… they do not respect blacks much at all except for… well, music, entertainment.
    Think about it this way: lets say you are a 135lbs mexican guy who lives in South Central working under the table breaking rock for $500 (personal check) a week and you cash your check every Friday at a liquor store and get preyed upon by a gang of black kids whose only job seems to be mugging you.
    *bleep* them

    Comment by SteveG (e27d71) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:15 pm

  281. Dave Surls

    I am sure you believe that following a strange person one time fits your definition of stalking.

    What I doubt is that most reasonable people would agree with your definition. If they did, every single person who walks down the street in New York would be susceptible to being arrested for stalking as you cannot help but follow someone.

    I think that is why they use three words to describe the action of stalking.

    Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows or harasses

    So willfully following someone one time would not be enough, you would have to do it more than once, with malicious intent to be guilty.

    I don’t know what your background is, but I sincerely hope you are neither a prosecutor or a judge. That would just be scary.

    Comment by Jay H Curtis (804124) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:19 pm

  282. “…some have jumped right to the lynching and to heck with the rest of the formalities.”

    That appears to be what Zimmerman possibly did to Martin, but I don’t see anyone calling for extra-judicial punishment for Zimmerman.

    Just a trial under the ordinary rules, and punishment, if he’s convicted.

    At least that’s all I’ve heard, even from the NBPP. Although, I’m sure I haven’t heard from every loon on the planet, so I imagine some people probably are suggesting that he be lynched.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:21 pm

  283. Obama 2012 is tweeting about its hooded sweatshirts.

    Stands to reason… Most of its support comes from people who want to – at a minimum – steal from your paycheck.

    Comment by Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:24 pm

  284. That appears to be what Zimmerman possibly did to Martin, but I don’t see anyone calling for extra-judicial punishment for Zimmerman.

    It does not appear that way to the vast majority of people here.

    Comment by JD (e5c06b) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:28 pm

  285. That appears to be what Zimmerman possibly did to Martin, but I don’t see anyone calling for extra-judicial punishment for Zimmerman.

    Just a trial under the ordinary rules, and punishment, if he’s convicted.

    At least that’s all I’ve heard, even from the NBPP.

    Are you f*cking HIGH???

    They are offering $10,000 for Zimmerman, DEAD OR ALIVE!

    When asked if they were offering it with the intent Zimmerman be harmed, they said “An eye for an eye”.

    You really think the left is calling for calm and reason?

    You really have become a complete moron…

    Comment by Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:29 pm

  286. Dave,

    The media reported the NBPP sent out flyers last week that said “Wanted: Dead of Alive” with Zimmerman’s photo. (Patterico posted on it, too.) The NBPP leader wanted 3 things, and so far 2 of them have come true:

    The posters were circulated during a press conference led by Minister Mikhail Muhummud, who said he is the southern regional director for the New Black Panther Party in Jacksonville, Florida.

    Muhummud demanded the firing of Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, the arrest of George Zimmerman and involvement from President Obama.

    He also told the group he was not concerned about rumors of death threats against George Zimmerman.

    “God da***t, he should be fearful for his life,” he said.

    It doesn’t sound like they want Zimmerman to be tried in a court of law, does it?

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:30 pm

  287. At least that’s all I’ve heard, even from the NBPP

    Wanted. $10,000 Bounty

    You and Al and Jesse just want justice.

    Comment by JD (e5c06b) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:31 pm

  288. Yes, Dave, that was speculation … and the commentator wrote it as speculation and did not write it as fact. In case you needed to see how that was done.

    Comment by SPQR (26be8b) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:33 pm

  289. saw this somewhere earlier on net. blogger says it is one of the martyr’s facebook accounts. a link for it at http://www.hollyhillfreepress.com

    question? if the new black panthers got their hands on zimmerman, the quasi-white mofo jew/nazi, would holder’s doj bother to prosecute “his” people? Want to bet the DOJ does come after Zimmerman regardless? Btw I’m told some of kid’s twitter friends apparently talk about the little cherub swinging on bus driver. Anyway he seems like a punk with a chip on his shoulder, looking for trouble and found it with white-boy pussy ass cracker (now available on tees with zimmerman’s mug). Had the angel been back in Miami attending classes, he wouldn’t be dead. at least not at this time. yes, I realize Surls is invested in Zimmerman’s guilt and dead boy’s martyrdom. Skittle and soda but no ganja?

    Comment by Calypso Louis Farrakhan (d32e4c) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:36 pm

  290. This fellow seems very consciencious

    http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/17259994/new-black-panther-party-leader-arrested-in-dekalb-co

    Comment by narciso (83bb81) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:45 pm

  291. Oh, my, narciso. It’s like an episode from dumb criminals.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:47 pm

  292. Mr. Limbaugh from your country pointed out today that the NYT made it clear that Mr. Zimmerman was a white Hispanic. I guess that was to clarify he was not striped, polka-dotted, or some other variant.
    I thought US government officials had already clarified that stuff on the last census forms. (Just as clear as the waters of the Amazon after a few days of drenching rains in the rainy season.)

    Comment by Painted Jaguar (a sockpuppet) (3d3f72) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:50 pm

  293. Patterico–Would you ever bring a case to trial to “I want a jury to do that, as per usual.”?

    If you had the “evidence” that we are “apparently” reading here from news stories and Twitter/et.al.?

    Comment by BfC (fd87e7) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:50 pm

  294. Dave Surls seems to be unreasonable in his POV but that does not justify claims he has joined the lynch mob. If there is to be any hope at all for productive discussion then SOMEBODY has top remain reasonable. I disagree with him that Zimmerman should be tried for murder perhaps but some of the critics are going too far in my opinion and it serves no good purpose.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:51 pm

  295. The NBP offering a $10,000 bounty, and asking for 5,000 black men to conduct the search for Zimmerman.

    Which brings up a couple of questions:
    1) If an Asian woman locates Zimmerman, can she claim the reward?
    2) Is there irony in the NBP paying ($2 per searcher) slave wages?

    Comment by Icy (71f821) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:54 pm

  296. Painted Jaguar: Did Mr. Surls at #282 write what he wrote? Because if so, this poor little Jaguar brain tells me:
    1. he has not been paying attention, if he has even read anything on this thread
    2. his face protected fists from hitting the floor at least one too many times.

    Comment by Painted Jaguar (a sockpuppet) (3d3f72) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:57 pm

  297. Martin’s twitter account

    After a few minutes of reading this garbage, I feel 20 I.Q. points dumber than ever before.

    Comment by Jay H Curtis (804124) — 3/26/2012 @ 6:59 pm

  298. Well my local fishwrap can’t find a clue, even if it was given to them, which they wouldn’t recognize
    anyways,

    Comment by narciso (83bb81) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:03 pm

  299. Comment by Machinist — 3/26/2012 @ 6:51 pm

    I did not mean to imply that Dave Surls was asking for a lynch mob. I am sorry if it was read that way. I was referring to a rather large percentage of people posting on the various news sites carrying parts of this story.

    Dave Surls, if you interpreted what I wrote about a lynch mob as being directed at you, I apologize. That is not what I meant to come across.

    Comment by Jay H Curtis (804124) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:03 pm

  300. “I am sure you believe that following a strange person one time fits your definition of stalking.”

    As far as I’m concerned taking two steps meets the standard of “repeatedly” following, if the other requirements are met. Take one step, you’re following. Take two steps, you’re repeatedly following.

    And, if a LEO (correctly) tells you not to follow someone, and you do it anyway, then I call that repeatedly following someone also.

    You can look at it any way you please, but I have very little tolerance for people following and harrassing other people, when they have no legitimate reason to do so, especially when they end up killing the person that they’re following and harrassing.

    However, consider it stipulated that Zimmerman might well beat a stalking charge by claiming he only did it once. The language of the law certainly allows for that possibility.

    “I sincerely hope you are neither a prosecutor or a judge.”

    I sincerely hope that as well. I have no desire to be either of those things.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:06 pm

  301. I had a guy follow me jogging for 10 miles on the Monon Sunday, and another guy followed me for 56 miles on my bike. Another guy followed me and my daughters for 173 steps in the mall last week. I am calling the cops immediately, but it is good to know that I am free to punch these people in the face, and pound their skulls into the pavement.

    Comment by JD (318f81) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:18 pm

  302. He wasn’t stalking. That’s not stalking. Not under that statute, not under any statute. If he had made contact with, harrassed, or attempted to restrain the kid there would be a different story perhaps, but that is not the story.

    He saw a suspicious person. Given the breakins, the unknown person, the behaviour and appearance reported (now made very plausible by Martins own writings and photographs), that suspicious was reasonable.
    He did not confront. The kid fled – as if conscious of the suspicious he had raised – and Martin got out to see where he went. He did not find Martin – Martin found him. And Martin unilaterally chose to attack, with a violent criminal assault.

    Being pissed of for being followed while black is not justification for that assault. Martin was retreating. When Martin confronted him, there were no fighting words from Zimmerman.

    Martin is the aggressor. he had no right to knock Zimmerman down and beat him against the pavement.

    But for that choice to attack, he would be alive.

    Comment by SarahW (b0e533) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:20 pm

  303. assault. Martin was retreating. = Zimmerman, not Martin, was retreating

    Comment by SarahW (b0e533) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:20 pm

  304. Ok, stylus isn’t cutting it. I’m going to have to cave and get reading glasses

    Comment by SarahW (b0e533) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:22 pm

  305. Comment by Jay H Curtis — 3/26/2012 @ 7:03 pm

    I was not directing my comment at you or your comment, Sir. A number of comments have lumped Mr. Surls in with those calling for his blood. I do not think that is called for or fair. I am sorry if my use of that term seemed to target you, I did not mean to. I generally agree with what you have posted and appreciate your rational POV and manner.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:24 pm

  306. Dave:

    And, if a LEO (correctly) tells you not to follow someone, and you do it anyway, then I call that repeatedly following someone also.

    The police have already said that failing to follow 911 instructions in this case isn’t actionable because they aren’t mandatory instructions:

    Police said they have not charged him because there are no grounds to disprove his story of what happened.

    “The evidence and testimony we have so far does not establish that Mr. Zimmerman did not act in self defense. We don’t have anything to dispute his claim of self-defense, at this point, with the evidence and testimony that we have,” Lee said.

    Lee said the 911 directions asking Zimmerman not to confront the teenager are not mandatory instructions.

    “That is a call taker making a recommendation to him. He’s not under a legal obligation to do that, so that is not something we can charge him with,” he said. ” But it would have been a good outcome … if Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman never came in contact with one another.”

    In addition, I don’t see how it could be considered stalking if it was the first time they’d seen each other … especially if the Sentinel report is true that Zimmerman had lost sight of Martin, and it was Martin who approached Zimmerman just before Martin was shot.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:28 pm

  307. Machinist – you are correct, though the difference between their positions is rapidly diminishing.

    Comment by JD (318f81) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:29 pm

  308. Daughter’s karate sensei was very clear, self defense means the minimal amount of force required to protect oneself in a situation, which is usually run and call for help. The amount of force a male requires to be protected from another male following at a distance of more than two steps is none. You tell someone to leave you alone, they close the distance and get in your face and you feel threatened you are justified (I believe) in throwing the first punch. You tell someone to leave you alone, and they keep hanging around at a distance out of striking range, and you are justified in calling the police, no matter how long they are doing it or how annoying they are. The legally allowed response to “stalking” is calling the police, not physical attack.

    On your back with an assailant banging your head against the ground? Allowed force is what it will take you to protect your life. If it is 10 year old child that tripped you, no excuse for deadly force. If the person can conceivably knock you out then give you a lethal head injury you do whatever you need to. People haved died from having their brains kicked in while laying on the ground waiting for the police to come.

    narciso- followed your link at #290. I wouldn’t want to have to supervise a correctional facility where he was an inmate. Talk of begging for trouble.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:30 pm

  309. JD,
    He is twisting the law and ignoring inconvenient evidence but has not called for any unlawful action. This is what I am afraid the DOJ will do but it is a very bright line between that and the calls for murder or kidnapping. There is no indication he would ever cross that gulf. That kind of smear belongs to the trolls, not the responsible commenters here. I am also exasperated but that does not warrant that kind of implication. We have seen enough of that around here.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:39 pm

  310. Machinist – Demanding a trial without due process and ignoring the presumption of innocence is what I was referring to. Our system is not set up to try people, and let a jury figure it out. But I understand what you are saying.

    Comment by JD (318f81) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:45 pm

  311. I thought you would Sir. You are a reasonable man.

    The local authorities seem to be keeping it together but I hope the Feds don’t jump in and make a show trial of this.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:49 pm

  312. OK, seriously, are ALL of my comments going into the filter?

    Comment by Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:52 pm

  313. Darwin incident: An ambitious young man eschewing first arrest for the mere humiliation of a misdemeanor drug charge and petty burglary adds aggravated assault of a squatty Mestizo and tragically is recycled.

    Society’s lament: Had the youth been white he’d have used a car and taken a couple more young people with him, and so redeem himself further reducing the population.

    http://minx.cc/?post=327850

    Comment by gary gulrud (d88477) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:56 pm

  314. “Muhummud demanded the firing of Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, the arrest of George Zimmerman and involvement from President Obama.”

    That sounds reasonable enough to me (except for the Obama part). No calls for a lynching there, and that’s coming from a NBPP member.

    That’s the only call for any kind of action I’ve heard from the NBPP.

    Of course, I don’t spend a whole lot of time listening to the NBPP, unless they say something really outrageous.

    A New Black Panther Party member might well have called for extra-judicial punishment, but I haven’t heard it.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:57 pm

  315. Dave,

    Please re-read my comment regarding the NBPP “Wanted Dead or Alive” posters with Zimmerman’s photo.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 3/26/2012 @ 7:59 pm

  316. Maybe Surls should read this post.

    Comment by JD (318f81) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:00 pm

  317. … and the part where the regional leader says Zimmerman should fear for his life.

    Comment by DRJ (a83b8b) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:00 pm

  318. $10,000 bounty dead or alive is not extra-legal?

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:01 pm

  319. I thought Leviticus was a bit strident lately.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:05 pm

  320. Comment by Machinist

    No apology needed. I reread my posts and realized that what I wrote was not clear and not how I wanted to come across. Sometimes what seems clear to me is not how others understand what I wrote.

    Concerning the Feds jumping in, we already have the experience with Obama and Holder both making statements that indicate their reactions are more based on race than logic. Remember the incident with the college professor and the cop for Obama and the NBPP voter intimidation fiasco for Holder. We really can’t expect other than what they have shown to be their natural response.

    Comment by Jay H Curtis (804124) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:06 pm

  321. Sorry, strident isn’t really the right word. Poor vocabulary.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:07 pm

  322. 319. Young, but promising, none of us knew squat at that age.

    Comment by gary gulrud (d88477) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:07 pm

  323. Painted Jaguar: How many times (see #296) will we need to tell Mr. Surls to actually read the commentary?
    How many times will Mr. Surls ignore our advice before we ignore him?

    Well, I guess one could be technically correct in saying no “lynchings” were called for, just his body, dead or alive.

    Comment by Painted Jaguar (a sockpuppet) (3d3f72) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:09 pm

  324. I was thinking more of the Rodney King case. The officers were acquitted and the Feds jumped in determined to get them for something, anything. I believe that was very wrong.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:10 pm

  325. It’s now known that the Limbaugh attack and boycott hysteria was all planned and “in the can” for months–just waiting for a catalyst (hello Sandra Fluke) who would entice Rush to rise to the bait. When he foolishly (but predictably) did, the leftist armies and propaganda-meisters were all in place, assignment ready, prepared to spring into action–which they did and performed like a well oiled machine. The progressive base got stirred up and media got everybody to talk about a war on women and contraception for three weeks instead of the deficit, Syria, Obamacare or gas prices.

    Is there really any question that this terrible incendiary situation in Florida, which is clearly being politically manipulated, is much the same thing? Is there doubt that plans have been in place to instigate a national racial incident over some unfortunate person’s death to stir up both the gun controllers and the AA base before the election? The planners obviously didn’t know in the early stages exactly when or where it would be implemented. They didn’t yet know whose death they would exploit. But the panthers and the race hustlers, and the president and his handlers all knew precisely what their roles and lines would be once the time came–once an available “victim” was identified–and they could open the play to a national audience. The media, as usual, has mostly fallen in line with the narrative.

    Maybe the Dems got a little antsy and jumped the gun on implementation, though. Turns out their perfect innocent young victim has some flaws that are coming out. And the perpetrator of the “hate crime” turned out to be Hispanic– not pearly White as would have been much more optimal to the story line. Oops. Some others of the assumptions and themes have started to crack under pressure. The death threats against Zimmerman raise some alarms. Still, it’s bigger than all of us. It’s likely to be a long hot summer and the production will roll along.

    Comment by elissa (dea0c2) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:13 pm

  326. Comment by gary gulrud — 3/26/2012 @ 8:07 pm

    Yes Sir. I enjoy reading his comments and I have a good deal of respect for him, but he seemed really locked in on his opinion of O’Keefe and unreasonable. Maybe obtuse would be a better word than strident. That belongs to some of our trolls, not him.

    Comment by Machinist (b6f7da) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:13 pm

  327. “Zimmerman, not Martin, was retreating”

    Whatever.

    “Zimmerman: These assholes. They always get away.”

    “911 dispatcher: Are you following him? [2:24]”

    “Zimmerman: Yeah.”

    He was both following the kid (or should I say “asshole”) and retreating from him. And, of course, he wasn’t trying to catch an “asshole”, who according to Zimmerman’s own words, really was retreating, he was just trying to retreat and avoid trouble.

    Donnez-moi une break.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:17 pm

  328. Need I point out that Surls is conflating 2 separate and distinct times during this tragic incident? And has studiously ignored everything that contradicts his narrative?

    Comment by JD (318f81) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:26 pm

  329. “Dave Surls, if you interpreted what I wrote about a lynch mob as being directed at you, I apologize.”

    I didn’t.

    No need to apologize.

    I’m sure there’s plenty of nuts that are screaming to hell with the law, he ought to be strung up.

    But, that’s not what I’m saying, and that’s not what most people that are upset about this are saying. What I’m saying, and what they’re saying is that the authorities need to charge Zimmerman, and we need to have trial.

    That’s pretty much it.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:28 pm

  330. they’re saying is that the authorities need to charge Zimmerman, and we need to have trial.

    That is absolutely not what the NBPP has been saying.

    And that is absolutely not how our criminal justice system works.

    Comment by JD (318f81) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:30 pm

  331. “Is there really any question that this terrible incendiary situation in Florida, which is clearly being politically manipulated, is much the same thing?”

    elissa – I think this kind of theory helps explain the time lag in ginning up the outrage over the story as well. They weren’t ready when it happened and were still focused on the “War on Women.” It all goes back to the question I raised of who benefits.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:31 pm

  332. “Need I point out that Surls is conflating 2 separate and distinct times during this tragic incident?”

    That’s why I put the three periods in there.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:35 pm

  333. “That is absolutely not what the NBPP has been saying.”

    That’s what I heard one of their guys say.

    I also heard them make some noise about arresting him themselves, which they better not try, because no arrest warrant has been issued, and they have no business messing with the guy (kinda like George Zimmerman having no business messing with Trayvon Martin, except in this case, a possible crime actually has taken place).

    But, I haven’t heard any of them calling for a lynching of Zimmerman.

    Not yet, anyway.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:49 pm

  334. Dave Surls,

    I don’t think anyone here wants the kid to be dead. I know I don’t. But, nothing you say will change that. And refusing to accept that the kid probably bears a LARGE percentage of the blame for that won’t change the facts as they are coming to be known.

    At this point, you are locked into it all being Zimmerman’s fault because he followed the kid to try and confront him. What happened after that is all conjecture, but the witness statements, the wounds to both the front and back of Zimmerman’s head as well as all the other information tends to indicate that Martin had a pretty big part in the escalation of the situation.

    We still haven’t seen the autopsy reports concerning any wounds or bruising on Martin’s hands, face, etc. like would be expected if Zimmerman threw the first punch. We also don’t know if there was anything that showed up on the toxicology report that would explain his actions. After reading his twitter archive and the archives of the people he routinely communicated with, and the references to smoking it up and weed, I would not be surprised by any results that may be returned.

    Don’t go thinking I am throwing stones here. I was 17 once myself and while I never smoked pot, I could roll a joint for my friends that looked like a commercial cigarette. Maybe he never smoked. Maybe he did. Maybe this did or didn’t play a part in this whole affair. We won’t know until more information is released.

    In the mean time, WE do not have enough information to charge Zimmerman with anything except being over zealous. The cops didn’t think they did either or they would have filed charges.

    So let the process proceed, and don’t get so emotionally involved with the situation that you can’t be logical and accept facts as such.

    Comment by Jay H Curtis (804124) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:49 pm

  335. Surls ardently is refusing to read the post he is commenting on, and the links provided by DRJ above.

    Comment by JD (318f81) — 3/26/2012 @ 8:56 pm

  336. ==elissa – I think this kind of theory helps explain the time lag in ginning up the outrage over the story as well. They weren’t ready when it happened and were still focused on the “War on Women.” It all goes back to the question I raised of who benefits==

    daley–Exactly. Unfortunately, to be understood properly this whole Trayvon thing must be viewed in its entirety with great cynicism. It’s so much more than a simple sad story about a 17 year kid being shot to death. It needs to be seen for what it really is–another variation on the age old theme of “follow the money.”

    There are other deaths to consider as well. Illegal and untraced Fast and Furious guns killed people. I’d rather we be talking about that. But others much prefer that we don’t.

    Comment by elissa (dea0c2) — 3/26/2012 @ 9:07 pm

  337. Dave Surls,
    You keep saying that Zimmerman was stalking Martin. You listed the relevant Florida penal code section which had 3 elements listed, all of which need to be present in order to be a violation. Zimmerman met 1 of those elements, willfulness. There was nothing to indicate malice or that he has ever followed him in the past. You can’t assume malice, you would have to be able show it.
    You also assert that he would be in serious trouble for the following if he had done it in California. Unless the laws have changed since I retired in 1999 (after 28 years), you are absolutely incorrect. Also, banging someone’s head against a curb is ample justification for self defense. You need rethink what you think you know.

    Comment by labcatcher (61737c) — 3/26/2012 @ 9:20 pm

  338. “The cops didn’t think they did either or they would have filed charges.”

    Well, the local authorities don’t always get it right.

    Sometimes they deliberately don’t get it right.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 10:58 pm

  339. “You listed the relevant Florida penal code section which had 3 elements listed”

    Yeah, I do that sometimes.

    “You can’t assume malice”

    I think the fact that he refered to the kid as an asshole, made some baseless accustions against him to the police, and then shot him are pretty good indicators of malice.

    I’m pretty sure he wasn’t following the kid in order to give him a Good Citizenship Award.

    “Also, banging someone’s head against a curb is ample justification for self defense.”

    Possibly. Depends on the circumstances. But, since that didn’t happen in this case (as far as we know), it’s not particularly relevant.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/26/2012 @ 11:07 pm

  340. “Illegal and untraced Fast and Furious guns killed people. I’d rather we be talking about that.”

    Yeah, I agree that’s probably more important.

    Definitely more important than some silly stuff like the antics of Weiner or Naffe.

    Only I don’t know what more I could say about Fast and Furious.

    By itself, it’s enough reason to impeach Obama, and toss a bunch of people in jail. But, I’ve already said that.

    Comment by Dave Surls (46b08c) — 3/27/2012 @ 12:23 am

  341. Look Dave, Zimmerman reduced the crime rate, the welfare rolls, the SSI rolls, and the food stamp rolls. What yo problem, sweet nigga?

    Comment by nk (52d02a) — 4/5/2012 @ 8:30 pm

  342. Just fucking drop this shit.

    Comment by nk (52d02a) — 4/5/2012 @ 8:31 pm

  343. skittles!

    Comment by happyfeet (3c92a1) — 4/5/2012 @ 8:44 pm

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