Patterico's Pontifications

1/21/2012

South Carolina: The Undiscovered Country; UPDATE: Gingrich Wins

Filed under: 2012 Election — Karl @ 3:01 pm

[Posted by Karl]

Polls close at 7 p.m. ET.  Although Nate Silver claims there is still considerable uncertainty about the outcome, the most likely result is a win for Newt Gingrich.  If so, as GOP fundraiser/consultant Nathan Wurtzel remarked on Twitter, a number of “rules” will be broken, e.g., that South Carolina is the “tiebreaker” between the winners in Iowa and New Hampshire, or that South Carolina kills the insurgent candidate and lifts up the establishment one, pointing the race toward a swift and sure conclusion, and possibly the “rule” that the Palmetto State selects the eventual nominee.  As Wurtzel later noted, historical trends must be discounted for the small sample size.

Tonight, the GOP may enter terra incognita.  We live in interesting times.  That may be a Chinese euphemism for a curse.  Then again, iirc, it’s the Chinese who see crisis and opportunity as two sides of the same coin.

–Karl

UPDATE BY PATTERICO: It appears Gingrich has, as expected, carried the day. An hour ago, the WSJ had Gingrich up 40% to 27%.

166 Responses to “South Carolina: The Undiscovered Country; UPDATE: Gingrich Wins”

  1. Ding!

    Karl (8cdbad)

  2. FNC: Exit poll says those concerned with electability went for Newt by 49-41 over Romney.

    Is that Newt’s debating skillz, or the Bain issue. FNCers seem to lean toward the former, but haven’t considered the latter.

    Karl (8cdbad)

  3. Also, Nate Silver asks whether Romney is still ahead in Florida.

    Karl (8cdbad)

  4. Karl, it sure would have helped Mitt if he could have responded to the Bain issue on its merits, rather than hiding behind Capitalism. I think that most of what he did is defensible, but his failure to address it forthrightly made Gingrich’s miscalculation sound again. And if that’s how he responds now, what will he do when Obama’s minions are hitting him with it from all asides?

    Kevin M (563f77)

  5. A second place finish for Romney in SC. On to Florida and beyond.

    Colonel Haiku (b486eb)

  6. Dammit, Karl preempted my traditional “Ding!”…

    Leviticus (dd1d7b)

  7. Wall Street Romney is not a plucky underdog type… he really couldn’t afford to lose his aura like this

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  8. if we could get rid of that dippy Ron Paul we’d have a better sense of what the for reals turnout/enthusiasm level is

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  9. I’m beginning to think Neut doesn’t fit the DSK/ Chakra/Slick mold. Workaholic PhD politcal addict doesn’t equate to satyr in my book.

    Don’t suppose his problem is mainly not affording spousal affections? Absent husband, doesn’t matter what he’s doing, it ain’t lovin me.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  10. “6:54 p.m. ET – @YellinCNN: We’re told Pres is at the White House, not watching s carolina returns. Maybe only person in politics not riveted by 2nite’s outcome.”

    Snorting lines, sipping Crystal and watching Sportsline.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  11. Sportscenter? Whatever.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  12. Fox calls it, no mas.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  13. Feets, “that dippy Ron Paul” is the only candidate left for whom I can vote without holding my nose. He’s more like a heady drink that I know I’ll regret in the morning. The other three candidates are fundamentally wrong; they believe in big government, and are thus not on the same political page as me. Paul is fundamentally right about almost everything; the only problem is that he’s insane. That’s a big problem, but a different one from the other three. And since there’s no way he can win, so I don’t need to worry about him blowing up the world, I think I’m going to support him from here on. I’d like him to get as many delegates as possible, so he’ll have a big influence on the platform and on the winner, and maybe next time a sane version of him can win.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  14. Well said, Milhouse.

    Leviticus (dd1d7b)

  15. Feets, “that dippy Ron Paul” is the only candidate left for whom I can vote without holding my nose.

    Free country, but the man couldn’t run a newsletter without decades of excuses. He is not fit for office, and that should matter.

    Newt is at least trying to argue for limited government, though I grant he has a mixed record. I suggest you reconsider despite his baggage because it matters quite a bit.

    But it’s a free country and it’s sad that we all have to settle as much as we do, no matter who we wind up supporting.

    It’s also a shame that Newt won’t take the largish state of VA because VA imposed unconstitutional rules. Shame, shame, shame on them.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  16. Paulnuts are egocentric losers.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  17. “7:00 p.m. ET – Polls closed in South Carolina at 7 p.m. ET, but CNN has yet to project a winner. According to exit polling, 38% of voters supported Gingrich, 29% backed Romney, 17% supported Santorum and 15% threw their backing to Paul.”

    If true, ‘spose the Ferengi drops? Me neither.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  18. I just don’t have patience for Ron Paul right now and honestly I’m done watching primary debates anymore.

    But what I will say is that I think it doesn’t help the process at all to get wee little congressional representatives to start thinking they have a realistic shot at the presidency. And that’s what a Ron Paul success will do. Congressional representatives already way way more pompous grandstandy and whorish than is optimal. They’re almost as bad as senators.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  19. *are* already I mean

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  20. NBC and Fox both called it less than 5 minutes after poll closing time.

    aphrael (1fc48e)

  21. . And that’s what a Ron Paul success will do.

    But it’s also a loud ‘no confidence’ vote to the other candidates, which I’m sure is a big part of Milhouse’s message. I disagree with him, but I get it.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  22. 13. AntiZionist?

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  23. if I had a horse in this race I would name it Wazzle and feed it hay and apples and make its stall was cosy and warm and use lighting effects to make my trusty steed look noble and courageous

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  24. make *sure* its stall was cosy and warm I mean

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  25. I think Romney is the only GOP candidate remaining in this field that we can call a moderate and Fox News’ exit polls indicate he will get around 30% of the South Carolina primary vote. In contrast, in the 2008 GOP primary, moderates McCain and Romney captured 48% of the South Carolina vote. If these exit polls hold up, this may not be a good year for moderates with the Southern GOP.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  26. There’s only one of these candidates who has finished with strong numbers in each of the three states so far.

    Colonel Haiku (b486eb)

  27. Heartwarming twitter action:

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/01/sc-primary-tweets-of-night/

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  28. So on to Florida.

    Colonel Haiku (b486eb)

  29. Believe it or not (and I didn’t think it possible), Mormonism was one reason Romney lost South Carolina. Exit polls show that most South Carolina voters wanted a candidate that shared similar religious views. Romney lost big among those voters. Note, I am not describing what ought to be, but rather what the data show is happening.

    If this is true, that’s really wrong.

    Folks need to respect other views unless they are offensive (Rev Wright is offensive, for example). This is simply the wrong reason to reject the guy in a pivotal time where bigger issues matter so much.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  30. I was convinced this issue didn’t matter at all, and am sorry if I’m wrong.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  31. Newt won on the basis of two debates. In effect, he ran against John King and, in a GOP Primary, that’s no contest. Once the smoke clears, people will remember that Newt’s running against Obama and not the media. We’ll see in Florida how much that means … http://bit.ly/qVdDUt

    ombdz (2a81ef)

  32. 26. A fair point.

    29. Absolute Relativism.

    “Folks need to respect other views unless” those views are intolerable.

    I know, you do not see the irony.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  33. Marianne really did sell herself obscenely cheap

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  34. I know, you do not see the irony.

    No, I don’t.

    I think there’s a common sense line that needs to be crossed before I make a man’s worship of God my business.

    For example, Rev Wright saying G.D. America. That’s terrible. I can’t stand it. Shame on his supporters.

    But the various things about Mainstream 2012 Mormonism? Well, why should we hold that against someone? It really bothers me that this would be the reason, of all the much more important ones, someone would reject Romney. It is shameful, in my opinion. I don’t know that this is the true reason… I am only saying if that’s the true reason, it is very misguided.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  35. Dude democraps accuse others of lacking morals but yet Bill Clinton has still not been shunned.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  36. Gallup polled the Mormon question last June, Dustin:

    Though the vast majority of Americans say they would vote for their party’s nominee for president in 2012 if that person happens to be a Mormon, 22% say they would not, a figure largely unchanged since 1967.

    This is a problem for Romney and for the GOP, if he’s the nominee.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  37. Now is the time to listen to me and my Karl intormed intuition. Gingrich is the more palatable poison. He’s the one. Time to buy your button machine.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  38. This is a problem for Romney and for the GOP, if he’s the nominee.

    I’m being a hypocrite here. A few hours ago I noted that if someone sells themselves largely on their electability, that opens the door to this kind of argument.

    You’re probably right, DRJ, that this is an electability problem.

    And it goes without saying I do not want Romney to be the next president.

    But as real as this situation appears to be, it bugs the crap out of me and it’s shameful. I’m not saying people shouldn’t openly discuss this real issue. I’m just not seeing how Mormonism is worse than other faiths in a way I should be concerned about.

    Historically, there’s badness there. Same for other faiths. Currently, there are extreme versions that are bizarre. Same for other faiths. It is not treating everyone the same. Same for at least many major faiths.

    I think it actually bugs me more because I can list many really good reasons to reject Romney.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  39. Also, basically the only thing that would make me vote Romney in a primary would be the impression Newt was taking advantage of this. Thank goodness he isn’t.

    Mike Huckabee did, and there’s no recovery from that.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  40. How many people actually like Gingrich?

    As Christopher Morton pointed out:

    Even Democrats I talked to expressed NO enthusiasm for him. “He isn’t a
    Republican” or “He isn’t Bush” isn’t much of an endorsement. I’ve NEVER talked to anyone who wasn’t a Democrat activist on usenet who
    actually LIKED Kerry.

    Michael Ejercito (64388b)

  41. Mitt’s faith is not a bar sinister. It’s the Mitt-ness that is.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  42. No it’s quite true Newt is widely reviled. He’s just better, that’s all.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  43. I think there’s a common sense line that needs to be crossed before I make a man’s worship of God my business.

    For example, Rev Wright saying G.D. America. That’s terrible. I can’t stand it. Shame on his supporters.

    Dustin, I don’t think this has anything to do with Rev. Wright’s religion, but instead reflects his political ideology. Couple the G.D. comment with his racism, accusations of the U.S. supporting terrorists against Palestine, etc., and I see man using the pulpit to push his political ideology.

    A broad statement perhaps, but I think that religion informs one’s politics and seeing the hater that Rev. Wright is, suggests to me religion is not a primary focus, let alone life changing relationship with God.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  44. Mitt’s faith is not a bar sinister. It’s the Mitt-ness that is.

    Comment by SarahW

    Well said.

    Via Allahpundit, who calls it obligatory.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  45. jimgeraghty: “To all of you who voted against me because of my faith… I say to you, with a heart full of God’s love, F*** off.”

    LOL

    Colonel Haiku (b486eb)

  46. Lotsa croc tears tonight about religion.

    Just sayin’…

    Colonel Haiku (b486eb)

  47. Exit polls show that most South Carolina voters wanted a candidate that shared similar religious views.

    I didn’t realise papism had made such strides in South Carolina! The KKK must be sh*tting itself.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  48. A broad statement perhaps, but I think that religion informs one’s politics and seeing the hater that Rev. Wright is, suggests to me religion is not a primary focus, let alone life changing relationship with God.

    Comment by Dana —

    I agree. To some extent, I think Rev Wright tried to relate the two, but I don’t buy it so why should I argue that?

    Anyway, I know Mormons who would give me the shirt off their back. They don’t agree with me on religion, but they don’t reject me on that basis, and nor do I them.

    I would like to hear an argument for why Mormonism even matters. Why does it relate to Mitt, who doesn’t bring religion up and has flip flopped on fundamental issues like abortion rights? I’ve read someone say I’m bashing Romney when I say this, as not a ‘good Mormon’, but what I mean is what JFK said about his Catholicism. He won’t let it drive his decisions. Which is how Romney explained his long standing abortion rights ‘unwavering support’ before he changed his mind there. He wasn’t going to impose his religious views, so it’s not relevant.

    This is one of those things I find myself genuinely amazed by.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  49. Michael Ejercito,

    I like virtually all the GOP nominees, including the ones who have ended their campaigns. I like them for different reasons and in differing degrees, but I could vote for all of them except Ron Paul and possibly Michelle Bachmann … and I’m not just saying that because I want President Obama to lose. I like each of them more than I liked McCain, for example, who is an honorable man but I don’t think he would have made as good a President as Romney, Perry, Gingrich, Santorum or Huntsman. And I only excluded Paul because of his foreign policy and Bachmann because I don’t feel like I know her positions as well as the other candidates.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  50. 13. AntiZionist?

    If Israel were my only concern, I’d be 100% behind Paul. A Paul presidency would be the greatest thing to happen to Israel in a long time. It just wouldn’t be so great for America or the rest of the free world. But for Israel the loss of America as a “protector” would be far outweighed by the loss of: 1) The constant USA pressure for it to commit near-suicide; 2) USA aid to Egypt and the PA; 3) Restrictions on what arms Israel can buy from USA manufacturers, and on what arms it can sell to others.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  51. Jeb Bush will endorse Romney.

    Colonel Haiku (b486eb)

  52. Expect quite a few more because the Republicans are sh*tting their pants even contemplating having to run with Gingrich.

    Colonel Haiku (b486eb)

  53. Though the vast majority of Americans say they would vote for their party’s nominee for president in 2012 if that person happens to be a Mormon, 22% say they would not, a figure largely unchanged since 1967.

    But how many of those are Democrats?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  54. Better a Mitt than a mutt, sarahw.

    Colonel Haiku (b486eb)

  55. Jeb Bush will endorse Romney.

    Figures.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  56. Dustin,

    I think Rev. Wright uses the pulpit to push the hate under the guise of religion. I don’t think anyone is really fooled but it is easily and fully justified – assuming his followers ever question it…

    In speaking with friends re Mormonism and whether or not it is an issue of consideration in selecting a nominee, it seems it’s secretive nature and issues of racism are the two stumbling blocks.

    How does a possible future POTUS square with belonging to a religion his entire life that prohibited black membership in the church until some time during the late 70′s?

    If this is a religion that all can, and are, invited to embrace, why the secret ceremonies, etc., that outsiders cannot witness?

    This does not appear to be a religion that is open and easily accessible. One of my hiking buds is a 4th generation Mormon, kindest and most generous person around, however even she is unable to answer said questions other than give the company line. At midlife, her personal frustration is that there is even a company line that seeks to justify, rather to soundly explain…

    Dana (4eca6e)

  57. Milhouse,

    According to the Gallup survey I linked above, 18% of Republicans would not vote for a Mormon, 19% of independents, and 27% of Democrats.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  58. Folks need to respect other views unless they are offensive (Rev Wright is offensive, for example)

    I don’t think we need to respect communism or socialism (whether national or international) or lots of other views. I do think the American way is to respect other people’s right to their religious views, and not to hold those views against them in any way. The problem with Wright is not his religious views; it’s his hatred of America, which is not a religious view at all.

    Let’s be precise about this: there is nothing wrong with warning America that if it proceeds on a wrong path it will be damned. That is the job of a preacher. When Pat Robertson said that God has historically protected America, but that He may have withdrawn that protection and allowed terrible things to happen because we no longer deserved it, and that if we want it back we need to change our ways, he was doing what every preacher since the dawn of time has done, and what we expect them to do. Even if we don’t agree with him, and think that the changes he laments are in fact good changes, that’s a religious difference and we can and should accept that his views are legitimate too. But that’s not what Wright did. Wright didn’t warn that God may damn America, or even that He will damn America; he prayed that God should damn America. He called on God to damn America, because that’s a result he wants. And that is unacceptable. And it’s unacceptable for someone who agrees with him to hold office in America.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  59. Interesting comment, Dana.

    However, my wife grew up in a Baptist church that thinks women are not fit for some of the roles men are fit for (which is my understanding of Mormonism too). This is not very different to me than the racial problems in Mormon history.

    My point: it’s not that Mormonism is correct on these grounds. It’s that most other religions have similar issues.

    If this is a religion that all can, and are, invited to embrace, why the secret ceremonies, etc., that outsiders cannot witness?

    I confess ignorance on this issue. I have attended bible studies with Mormons and didn’t have any issues with asking questions, but that doesn’t mean you’re wrong about secretive stuff I am not considering.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  60. I don’t think we need to respect communism or socialism (whether national or international) or lots of other views. I do think the American way is to respect other people’s right to their religious views, and not to hold those views against them in any way. The problem with Wright is not his religious views; it’s his hatred of America, which is not a religious view at all.

    You and Dana have raised this excellent point, and I agree.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  61. When Pat Robertson said [...]

    That’s the reason I am not a fan of that man. His views are legitimate in a sense, but I do not think 9/11 was God’s wish for us, for example. It was evil.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  62. What’s interesting about the Gallup poll is Catholics (16%) were less opposed to voting for a Mormon than non-Christians (22%), Protestants (23%), and voters from the South (23%), West (22%), and Midwest (26%). Like Catholics, a similar percentage of Eastern voters (17%) would not vote for a Mormon.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  63. Mitt’s faith is not a bar sinister.

    Pedant alert: There is no such thing as a “bar sinister”. A bar, by definition, cannot be either dexter or sinister, because it’s perfectly horizontal. A bend can be sinister, but there is no real tradition of using a bend sinister as a sign of bastardy. Usually bastardy was indicated by a blot. I don’t know how the term “bar sinister” entered the language, but it’s at least 200 years old now, and there’s nothing that can be done about it except educate people.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  64. In any event, in the USA the constitution specifically prohibits corruption of the blood, and bastardy has never been a bar to any office.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  65. Dustin,

    I think if Mitt ends up running against Obama, his faith will be an issue and the historical issue of race within the Mormon church will be intently focused on. Mitt will need to be prepared to explain and deflect.

    It will get vicious and vile and a complicit media will have to find something about him to chew up and spit out for the masses, and because he is so squeaky clean (say what you will about Bain), his faith will be on the table.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  66. Pedant alert: There is no such thing as a “bar sinister”. A bar, by definition, cannot be either dexter or sinister, because it’s perfectly horizontal. A bend can be sinister, but there is no real tradition of using a bend sinister as a sign of bastardy. Usually bastardy was indicated by a blot. I don’t know how the term “bar sinister” entered the language, but it’s at least 200 years old now, and there’s nothing that can be done about it except educate people.

    I remember a lady I was friends with who got so annoyed when I’d say “very unique” and never realized that’s why I kept saying it.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  67. Mitt will need to be prepared to explain and deflect.

    You’re right, Dana. There’s nothing wrong with your realism on this count. I just wish it weren’t like that.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  68. I just thought about Obama’s response to his ‘religion’ and church: He ruthlessly chose to throw Rev. Wright and the church under the bus. No loyalty there. However, Mitt can’t and won’t do that. It’ll be interesting to see how he handles it.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  69. _____________________________________________

    This is a problem for Romney and for the GOP, if he’s the nominee.

    Jeez, and what irony, in that quite a few Americans ignored or rationalized away Obama’s connection with Jeremiah Wright (and his extremist church), so much so that the guy now in the White House won quite handily in 2008.

    If most of those very bothered by a politician’s affiliation with the Mormon church are of the right, and, in turn (presuming Romney eventually gets the nod—if only by default), if they help contribute to the dynamics that make the reelection of Obama more likely this year, then will America, thanks in part to such voters, truly end up as “goddamned” as wished for by Obama’s former pastor?

    Meanwhile, as this part of the world sags under the weight of too much secular liberal sentiment (notwithstanding the heebee-jeebee reactions towards the Mormon faith) — in which the ability of Obama to land on his feet again is better than it should be — in the part of the world where Egypt is located has so many voters going goo-goo-eyed for Islamic/Sharia Law fundamentalism that they’re helping bog down their country.

    Again, the irony of such matters — here and there — never cease to amaze.

    Mark (411533)

  70. Joe Paterno has died.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  71. The MSM will scrutinize anyone.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  72. on the GOP side.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  73. In other words, the bar isn’t a bar. It’s a barre, french for that other thing

    Typical Snow White person (b0e533)

  74. I would like to hear an argument for why Mormonism even matters. Why does it relate to Mitt, who doesn’t bring religion up and has flip flopped on fundamental issues like abortion rights? I’ve read someone say I’m bashing Romney when I say this, as not a ‘good Mormon’, but what I mean is what JFK said about his Catholicism. He won’t let it drive his decisions.

    But that’s not a good thing. What does it say about someone that he claims to believe that something is an eternal truth, and yet he makes vitally important decisions, that affect hundreds of millions of people, as if it were not true?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  75. RIP Paterno.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  76. According to the Gallup survey I linked above, 18% of Republicans would not vote for a Mormon, 19% of independents, and 27% of Democrats.

    So the bigotry is far more common among Democrats. Big surprise there.

    In any case, that means the problem is a lot smaller than the overall numbers would suggest. Remember this is the percentage of people who will support their party’s nominee; so the Democrats in the sample will voted for Obama no matter whom the GOP nominates, and Romney’s Mormonism is irrelevant to them. Unless we can engineer a coup on the D side, with Reid replacing Obama as their candidate, that 27% of Democrats is irrelevant to us.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  77. Why does it relate to Mitt, who doesn’t bring religion up and has flip flopped on fundamental issues like abortion rights?

    To me, the question is why isn’t he bringing up his religion, which is at the forefront of his life? Is he hoping it will not become an issue because he can’t explain certain aspects of it that the mainstream public might have trouble with? Or is it assumed he just wants to keep religion out of the equation?

    This speaks to the conundrum of our elected officials. The public screams (mistakenly applied), separation of church and state, blah, blah, whenever religion is invoked. Unless of course, it’s in the most generic banal way.

    But then if a president treats their religion with such blase, is that something we respect?

    Dana (4eca6e)

  78. But that’s not a good thing.

    I see your point. I find inconsistency on abortion rights, with Romney’s timing, to be disturbing.

    But it does seem to suggest Mormonism isn’t truly relevant to how he’d lead, right?

    Romney’s explanation is that one of the views of his faith is that it’s wrong to impose your views on other people, so by not imposing his Mormon views on MA, he was being faithful to those views. That makes enough sense to me.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  79. No, there are plenty of other reasons, not to vote for him, in fact I would look down on someone who gave that as his main reason,

    narciso (87e966)

  80. Only paulnuts compare Israel’s wall to East Germany.

    Only Romneyphiles would defend his numerous flip-flops.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  81. To me, the question is why isn’t he bringing up his religion, which is at the forefront of his life?

    Perhaps he knows he can’t get a fair shake. This really bugs the hell out of me.

    The “tax” Gingrich refers to was in fact a fee on gun licenses that Romney raised in 2003 as part of his administration’s effort that year to scour the tax code for loopholes it could close and fees it could hike to close a budget deficit.

    Romney initially proposed raising the fee for a gun license from $25 to $75, but the Legislature bumped it to $100, and Romney signed that increase into law, according to James Wallace, executive director of the Gun Owners Action League, a Massachusetts gun rights group.

    The following year, Romney worked with the Legislature to increase the duration of a gun license from four to six years, which had the effect of mitigating the higher gun license fee. So a gun license that used to cost $25 for 4 years ($6.25 per year) became $100 for 6 years ($16.66 per year).

    All told, Romney raised fees by about $375 million and closed tax loopholes that raised another $375 million in revenue, according to Michael J. Widmer, president of the Massachusetts Taxpayers Foundation, a nonpartisan, business-backed budget watchdog group.

    Romney has long argued that fees are not taxes because they are charged for specific services. But others, including gun owners in Massachusetts – who number about 200,000 – have rejected that distinction.

    “It’s a tax on our rights. Period,” Wallace said today.

    There are really good reasons for conservatives to reject a tax and spend liberal.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  82. MA under Romney is a liberal hick town.

    Chicago under Democraps is a ghetto hick town.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  83. Oh, my. CBS Sports initially reported Joe Paterno had died but it’s updated the same link with: “Reports of Joe Paterno’s death refuted by family.” Is there anything the media can’t get wrong?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  84. That’s the reason I am not a fan of that man. His views are legitimate in a sense, but I do not think 9/11 was God’s wish for us, for example. It was evil.

    So? Is evil not also His doing? Do not both good and bad come from the mouth of the Above? Isaiah says [I] create light and dark; make peace and create evil; I, God, do all of these things; this was his response to the Zoroastrian teaching that there are two gods, Ohrmuzd and Ahriman, and all bad things come from the bad god.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  85. So? Is evil not also His doing?

    That is, of course, a subject of interesting controversy.

    My view is that it’s the absence of God that sees evil, rather than God delivering 9/11 on innocent men women and children because we watch too much porn. God can’t control us, or we aren’t really existing, so for free will, he takes a step back, and then evil is possible.

    etc etc. Reasonable people disagree.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  86. :roll: Deluded paulbot.

    Apologies for redundancy.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  87. I remember a lady I was friends with who got so annoyed when I’d say “very unique” and never realized that’s why I kept saying it.

    But uniqueness can be relative. Something can be unique within a particular collection, or in a neighbourhood, a city, a country, the world, or the whole universe. A whole species may be unique among all species, while having billions of members; or an individual being may be unique among all beings of the universe.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  88. I’m hearing Jeb Bush has announced he won’t endorse Romney.

    Makes you wonder which way the momentum is going in Florida. I was expecting Romney to crush the competition there. He’s certainly blanketing the state with ads.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  89. Milhouse,

    I agree that 27% is not relevant if they represent people who were going to vote Democratic anyway. But maybe that 27% represents moderate, religious, or blue collar Democrats — some of whom the GOP needs in order to win next November. I can’t tell.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  90. But uniqueness can be relative. Something can be unique within a particular collection, or in a neighbourhood, a city, a country, the world, or the whole universe. A whole species may be unique among all species, while having billions of members; or an individual being may be unique among all beings of the universe.

    Comment by Milhouse

    I mean absolutely no disrespect, but it would have been really fun watching you two discuss that.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  91. Oh no, Dustin, you’ve really opened the can of worms and stepped in it now!

    *Free will: does it even exist?
    *Sovereignty of God: Is He limited?
    *Evil: Is it self-originated or did a
    Sovereign and Perfect God create it for
    Divine purpose?

    Heh.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  92. Maybe relying on the New Testament, gives a better perspective, although isn’t it said, ‘the wages of sin are death’

    http://bible.cc/john/10-10.htm

    narciso (87e966)

  93. Apparently, not only was the media wrong on Paterno’s death, but also on suggesting Jeb Bush was going to endorse:

    After CNN prematurely reported tonight that Jeb Bush would endorse Mitt Romney, he tells Bloomberg he will “stay neutral” in the Florida primary.

    No, there’s nothing they can’t botch.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  94. ==Chicago under Democraps is a ghetto hick town==

    Gotta push back on this ugly statement. It’s true that Chicago has financial problems and its government is largely controlled by corrupt Democrat dynasties. It has lousy winters. But Chicago is a world class city whose combination of business, arts, architecture, food, lakefront beauty, higher education, sports, and unique neighborhoods are unparalleled.

    Choose another city to revile. Thanks.

    elissa (28c05d)

  95. Apparently Paterno didn’t die.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  96. the network that took Joe Biden seriously, that published the fake AWOL letters, ‘shirley you can’t be serious’

    narciso (87e966)

  97. Uh I Said under democraps but if it were under republicans it would be better.

    Sorry.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  98. I love the I.D.F.
    And so does Jesus

    sickofrinos (44de53)

  99. Milhouse,

    I think Party identification on the Mormon issue is a red herring. The Gallup poll indicates the main people who say they won’t vote for a Mormon are people with no college (31%). Working class voters with no college are the same voters Obama has reportedly given up on. Can the GOP afford for a sizeable percentage of them to stay home?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  100. Yeah, well remember that the hot shot always reliable professional media also announced that Gabrielle Giffords had died from her gunshot wounds–right before they announced that she didn’t.

    elissa (28c05d)

  101. I think you haven’t seriously considered the notion of a US President actively against Israel, the ’56
    Suez, would give you some flavor of that.

    narciso (87e966)

  102. _______________________________________________

    So the bigotry is far more common among Democrats. Big surprise there.

    Not really.

    Dailycaller.com, March 2011:

    Social scientists usually measure traditional racism against African Americans by looking at the survey responses of white Americans only. Among whites in the latest General Social Survey (2008)[conducted by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago], only 4.5% of small-government advocates express the view that “most Blacks/African-Americans have less in-born ability to learn,” compared to 12.3% of those who favor bigger government or take a middle position expressing this racist view.

    But advocates of smaller government can be found among Democrats and Independents as well as Republicans. What happens if we compare Republicans who think Washington is doing too much with those who think that government should do more or take a middle position? The relationships I’ve just described only get stronger.

    [A]mong whites, Republican advocates of smaller government are even less racist (1.3% believing that blacks have less in-born ability) than the rest of the general public (11.3% expressing racist views). Thus, in 2008 Republicans who believe that the government in Washington does too much have 10 times higher odds of not expressing racist views on the in-born ability question than the rest of the population (79-to-1 odds v. 7.9-to-1 odds).

    What about conservative Republicans more generally, not just the ones who want a smaller government? Surely they must be more racist. Actually not. In 2008, only 5.4% of white conservative Republicans expressed racist views on the in-born ability question, compared to 10.3% of the rest of the white population.

    [T]his same pattern holds for white Democrats compared to white Republicans: in 2008 12.3% of white Democrats in the U.S. believed that African Americans were born with less ability, compared to only 6.6% of white Republicans.

    And 2008 wasn’t an aberration. In sixteen surveys from 1977 through 2008, overall white Republicans were significantly less racist on the in-born ability question than white Democrats (13.3% to 17.3%), and white conservative Republicans were significantly less racist than other white Americans (11.7% to 14.7%)…

    Though the percentage of white Democrats and white Republicans who slightly or strongly agreed that “White people have a right to keep Blacks out of their neighborhoods” did not differ significantly in any one survey, overall white Democrats were significantly more likely to support segregated neighborhoods than white Republicans (30.4% to 26.3%).

    Meanwhile, one of the most famous Democrats in US history…

    latimes.com, July 2003: Many who are aware of Harry Truman’s support for Israel and his desegregation of the armed forces are shocked by the anti-Semitic statements contained in his recently discovered 1947 diary. But Truman’s bigotry comes as little surprise to historians who have studied the man and his career.

    Truman’s ugly comments about Jews being “very, very selfish”….or his charge that “neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the underdog,” are distressingly consistent with his disparaging views about other racial and ethnic minorities. As a younger man, he wrote in a 1911 letter to his wife, Bess: “I think one man is as good as another so long as he’s honest and decent and not a nig–r or a Chinaman.”

    Years after Truman left office, [TV producer & interviewer David] Susskind was working with the former president on a television documentary. Susskind said that each morning he would arrive at Truman’s house in Independence [Missouri]. He would wait on the porch on a cold February day while Mrs. Truman went to inform her husband of his arrival.

    After about the fourth morning, he asked the president in his walk why he was never asked inside.

    “You’re a Jew, David, and no Jew has ever been in the house.”

    A nonplussed Susskind replied, “I am amazed that you who recognized Israel and championed the integration of the army would say such a thing!”

    “David,” he explained, “this is not the White House – it’s the Wallace [Bess Truman's maiden name] house. Bess runs it, and there’s never been a Jew inside the house in her or her mother’s lifetime.

    ^ Keep in mind that Truman was an advocate for implementing publicly funded healthcare and would go out on stump speeches expressing hostility towards “conservatives” and “Republicans.” IOW, from a political standpoint, he was pretty much of the left. As such, he’s so two-faced, phony and twisted, that even the label of “limousine liberal” doesn’t quite fit him.

    Mark (411533)

  103. elissa,

    I think Chicago is a beautiful city and America is a wonderful country, and both have their best days ahead. To make that happen, we need to put America back to work and clean up our fiscal mess. My hope is the 2012 election puts us on a path to do both in 2013.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  104. But Chicago is a world class city whose combination of business, arts, architecture, food, lakefront beauty, higher education, sports, and unique neighborhoods are unparalleled.

    Choose another city to revile. Thanks.

    Comment by elissa

    I have a lot of problems with the quality of political process Chicago consents to.

    But it’s a charming city with some great schools and cool buildings.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  105. But I think Tehran is a cool city too with some fantastic architecture and amazing vistas.

    Dustin (7362cd)

  106. Yes, but Nixon had many of the same hangups yet he bailed them out in ’73, to the cost of the embargo.

    narciso (87e966)

  107. Florence.Edinburgh.Belfast.

    sickofrinos (44de53)

  108. A touch of irony, Carlh Jonhnson seriously believes
    Obama did not bow.

    narciso (87e966)

  109. 70. “There but for the grace of God go I.”

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  110. I am inclined to suspect that the Democrats who wouldn’t vote for a Mormon are saying so because they are reacting to the perceived image of the Moromon church as a bastion of conservative white malehood with a history of racism and which is actively “homophobic”. [I'm not talking about reality here, only the public image as transmitted in the media.] They presume your average Mormon agrees with his church about that sort of thing, and that therefore any Mormon would be a person they would not want to vote in office.

    Has anyone done a similar poll about Southern Baptists? (If I’m right, a poll would show a similar result regarding them.)

    BTW, Kennedy, IIRC, did not say his religion would not influence his decision. He said that he was under no obligation to listen to what the Pope said about any idinvidual issue, and that if the Pope attempted to order him to do something as President he would be obligated on religious grounds to ignore the Pope.

    JBS (437df2)

  111. I think you haven’t seriously considered the notion of a US President actively against Israel, the ’56 Suez, would give you some flavor of that.

    Yes, Eisenhower screwed Israel, if only as collateral damage in his screwing the UK. But an isolationist Paul wouldn’t do that. Had Ike only been isolationist, the UK would have brought down the commies in Iran and restored BP’s stolen oil wells, Israel would have kept the Sinai and prevented the ’67 war (and Nasser might well have fallen), the Hungarian patriots would have known they were on their own and not sacrificed themselves on a futile uprising, and the world might have been a better place; on the other hand, the Soviets might have taken Berlin and been a greater menace to the USA-less West.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  112. Belfast?

    Is that where they ring bells extremely fast?

    :wink:

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  113. Romney up big in Charleston, Columbia, Beaufort.

    Portending the race going forward. Dimmis in open contests without party registration will thumb the scale.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  114. Well, that’s over, and Newt has the momentum for now. The really interesting stuff is in the exit polls.

    Except for a few categories (e.g. 18-29 went for Ron Paul, abortion voters went for Santorum), Newt ran the table. He even did better (51-37) with those who thought the most important issue was electability.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  115. Comment by narciso — 1/21/2012 @ 7:07 pm

    Don’t need to go that far back. Just look at George Bush, Sr. in the aftermath of the First Gulf War.

    There is a reason that my family always viewed James Baker as an anti-Semite.

    JBS (437df2)

  116. Well, no the thin g about Ajax was not so much the MI-6 and CIA intervention, butthe fact the mullahs
    and the merchants had lost confidence in Mossadegh,
    as Taheri has made clear, as for Suez, the ones who would have benefited from that, was the Brotherhood
    so thank heaven for small favors.

    narciso (87e966)

  117. JBS,

    In a 2000 Gallup poll regarding Gore-Leiberman, 92% of Americans said they would vote for a Jewish candidate and 94% for a Baptist:

    In Gallup’s most recent asking of the question, last year, 92% of Americans said they would vote for a candidate who happened to be Jewish.

    Al Gore is a Baptist, and in response to the same type of question, 94% of Americans said they would vote for a Baptist for president. Looked at from a slightly different perspective, 6% of Americans say they would object to voting for a Jewish candidate for president, while 4% say they would object to voting for a Baptist candidate for president.

    Baptist may not be the same as Southern Baptist but I think it’s a good indicator.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  118. 101. Genesis 12.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  119. JBS,

    From the same link (published in 2000):

    Gallup asked about the implications of a candidate being a Mormon in 1967, when Michigan Governor George Romney was a possible contender for the Republican nomination. At that point, 75% of Americans said they would vote for a Mormon for president. Unlike the changes observed for the other religious groups, there has been little change in this measure over the years. In Gallup’s poll last year, just 79% of Americans said they would vote for a Mormon for president.

    I don’t know why being Mormon is a problem for some voters, but it seems it is.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  120. I wonder how Floridians would react to the claim that Ron Paul thought that fighting Hitler to “save the Jews” was a bad idea.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  121. Well Buchanan did get some votes in Florida, sarc,

    narciso (87e966)

  122. CNN person (??) says that Newt was “belittling” Obama when he said that Keystone XL showed that not only couldn’t people in the WH play chess, the couldn’t play tic-tac-toe, and that Newt was over-the-top comparing Obama’s foreign policy to Carter’s and finding Obama grossly wanting.

    Me, I thought it was restrained, especially for Newt.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  123. Jeb’s decided to hold off on endorsing, may be needed after a third ballot.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  124. With all due respect for Howard Fineman, I think cockfighting Republicans are more representative than pig farming Republicans or commuting to MA Republicans.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  125. Gingrich a conservative?

    No but I’ll take him over Obama.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  126. There is a reason that my family always viewed James Baker as an anti-Semite.

    Baker is definitely an antisemite. But an isolationist president wouldn’t have been in the Gulf War in the first place, and if Hussein had for some reason shelled Israel anyway, he would not have prevented Israel from defending itself. He also wouldn’t have promised Israel loan guarantees in the first place, and therefore wouldn’t have had the opportunity to screw it by reneging. And he wouldn’t have cared where immigrants from the USSR chose to live.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  127. On the subject of bigotry, 50% will not vote for an Atheist.

    Don’t think ‘secular humanist’ was sampled but it would have been fun to see the result ’cause it’s the state religion.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  128. I would hope no one is buying home sites on the Plain of Megiddo just now. There’s a turn down in the market coming that will make Las Vegas look like a trip to Disneyland with Dog doing a photo op.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  129. I wonder how Floridians would react to the claim that Ron Paul thought that fighting Hitler to “save the Jews” was a bad idea.

    FDR and Churchill thought saving the Jews was none of their business too. They absolutely refused to bomb the train lines to Auschwitz, which would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives, because such a mission would have no military value. And when Eichmann was offering to sell Jews at $50 a piece, they prevented any effort to make the deal. As Lord Moyne said, “What would we do with a million Jews?”

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  130. you don’t just up and put someone’s mentally ill ex-wife on the telly is the takeaway here

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  131. I would hope no one is buying home sites on the Plain of Megiddo just now.

    I think it’s a national park.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  132. CNN person (??) says that Newt was “belittling” Obama when he said that Keystone XL showed that not only couldn’t people in the WH play chess, the couldn’t play tic-tac-toe,

    Of course he was belittling Obama, and so he should. What’s the CNN person’s point? Isn’t it a GOP candidate’s job to belittle Obama? And doesn’t he richly deserve belittling over this decision?

    and that Newt was over-the-top comparing Obama’s foreign policy to Carter’s and finding Obama grossly wanting.

    Huh? Do you mean that CNN person admitted that Carter’s foreign policy was a disaster? I thought the left maintained Carter was a great president, a master of foreign policy, and that Obama would do well to emulate him. That’s what the Nobel Peace Prize committee would have us think.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  133. I love the left supporting SOPA and if we don’t endorse it people will be allowed to illegally download stuff and the GOP will be blamed.

    I bet it won’t apply to democraps.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  134. In retrospect that may not have been the swiftest thing, that Lord Moyne could have said.

    narciso (87e966)

  135. In retrospect that may not have been the swiftest thing, that Lord Moyne could have said.

    That’s one reason he got his.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  136. The 1995Vanity Fair article of Sheehy that delves into Newt and Marianne:

    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/1995/09/newt-gingrich-199509

    ‘”He completely ignores her,” observes a Washington journalist who has inter-viewed Marianne. “It’s my impression the marriage is a dead letter. He is so self-obsessed, she could open the door wrapped in plastic wrap and he wouldn’t notice.”’

    Psychological infidelity? Abscence of requisite spousal interest and affection?

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  137. 134. Thinking ahead, good. Wish we had public servants in government.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  138. 123. I kinda think FDR wasn’t thinking of the Jews, he’d sure didn’t offer them refuge and boat passage.

    In fact, early reports of the Holocaust were ignored.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  139. Well he had the former envoy to Mussolini, Breckenridge Long, as State’s gatekeeper.

    narciso (87e966)

  140. I think Neut has Aspy’s, NTTAWWT, Einstein for one was so afflicted. Analogous to being left-handed.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  141. Bet Nikki’s feeling like crap just now. Hope WH Czar of Shiny Things is available.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  142. She chose to be ‘assimilated’ as the better course,
    of action,

    narciso (87e966)

  143. 143. Come to think of it, Einstein divorced the mother of his children, a physicist, kind of a looker, and a sounding board thru his works of genius.

    After that, he had no more earth-stopping work and married a cousin, a nondescript entity in every sense.

    Bastard, strip the Nobels.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  144. 132. Sorry, I stepped on your far more informative comment. Slow reader.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  145. Well, well, well, the face of the Republican party is the serial adulterer. Are we there yet?

    tifosa (5878f8)

  146. Exit polls show that most South Carolina voters wanted a candidate that shared similar religious views.

    – Must be why Ron Paul tanked it.

    Icy (fe5e20)

  147. How did Huntsman do, tifosa?

    Icy (fe5e20)

  148. tifosa:

    Kind of like the elder statesman of the Democratic Party.

    Just saying and all.

    Ag80 (ccff59)

  149. How long will it be acceptable for Obama to blame Bush for the recession.

    500 years from now.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  150. Obama is continuing to bailout banks.

    It’s all the Repubs fault……was it the Repubs fault when Obama spend money?

    Granted Repubs are tax and spend liberals so is Obama.

    If the useful idiots don’t wake up and see the democraps are equally responsible just as much as the Republicans they deserve to see Ruination.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  151. Not only that Wall Street gave money to Obama.

    Obama had no problem with continuing Bush’s bailouts so he isn’t cleaning up bush’s economy.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  152. Not only that we still do not have a budget.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  153. Obama has had 3 years to clean up the economy how many years does it take for his garbage to become even unacceptable to the left.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  154. Yeh, Huntsman…sad but true.
    “Has had 3 years to clean up the economy…”
    -The auto industry is saved, and the loans paid back.
    -23 consecutive months of private sector job GROWTH, 2 1/2Mish, not enough, but better than the 3/4 million we were bleeding when Bush left, AND more than were created under Bush’s 8 years.
    -The stimulus created the floor the economy is now bouncing up from.
    -The bank bailouts, started under Bush and continued by PresObama, were successful and have largely been paid back.
    While I don’t agree with “everythingobama,” he beats any alternative.

    tifosa (5878f8)

  155. ‘There is no such thing as a “bar sinister”.’

    Obviously, we frequent different saloons.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  156. Did you hear it?
    USA USA USA
    At Newt’s victory speech , The Tea Party was heard. Only people proud of their country use those letters, showing conviction from the heart. God Bless this country.
    Pats42-Ravens17
    S.F.23-N.Y.20

    sickofrinos (44de53)

  157. You know who was a great President who was divorced and remarried?

    Ronald Reagan.

    Random (38d59c)

  158. Yep, but Wyman left him. Different scenario and Gingrich will soon show why he’s not the historical figure he believes himself to be. He will then feel cheated… AGAIN… and begin the inevitable implosion process.

    Colonel Haiku (b486eb)

  159. From a Christian perspective, Reagan’s divorce did not meet the one and only valid criteria for a divorce. And I’m not saying that rebounds to Gingrich’s favor. My point is, a guy can have two, or in Gingrich’s case, three, serious women in his life and still make a good President.

    Random (38d59c)

  160. #160

    I agree the Pats and SF will win. I’m hoping for the Ravens but I don’t think Flacco’s up to the task. In a NE – SF Super Bowl the Pats will probably be favored, but SF will win IMO.

    Gerald A (b4fe48)

  161. When we get rid of Ron Paul we’ll have a much better sense of what the for true turnout/enthusiasm level is

    Ashley (3a3def)

  162. What I meant to say was I don’t think Cundiff’s up to the task.

    Gerald A (b4fe48)


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