Patterico's Pontifications

12/20/2011

PolitiFact’s 2011 Lie of the Year: A Surprise

Filed under: General — Karl @ 8:55 am

[Posted by Karl]

In handicapping PolitiFact’s 2011 Lie of the Year finalists, I suggested that — by the site’s own criteria — the DCCC claim that House Republicans voted to “end Medicare” ought to be Lie of the Year, as it had the most impact on the national discourse.  But I concluded, based on the site’s general liberal skew, that it would award the dishonor to the claim that Obama’s stimulus created zero jobs.  Imagine my surprise:

PolitiFact debunked the Medicare charge in nine separate fact-checks rated False or Pants on Fire, most often in attacks leveled against Republican House members.

Now, PolitiFact has chosen the Democrats’ claim as the 2011 Lie of the Year.

Of course, the supposedly neutral fact-checkers go on to advise Democrats how to make the charge with just a few tweaks.  And they claim that Obama was more “precise,” although he claimed the GOP would “voucherize” Medicare (when the plan has been one of premium support, not vouchers).

Even so, prominent progressive pundits are, er, upset this morning.  Paul Krugman titles his commentary “Politifact R.I.P.,” the American Prospect’s Steve Benen claims PolitiFact should be ashamed of itself and calls the selection a “credibility-killing choice,” and the WaPo’s Greg Sargent calls it a “cheap and easy way to establish [a] fake aura of ‘balance’.”

At first glance, one wonders why they care.  After all, PolitiFact has called various Democrats out over similar Mediscare attacks repeatedly, without any effect on the behavior of the Democrats or the establishment media.  Thus, PolitiFact’s most useful function may be in triggering an analysis of the overwrought reactions of these progressive crybabies.  

PolitiFact’s biggest lie is its conceit that a political judgment call can be easily labeled as a “lie” in the first instance — even lefty ideologues like Glenn Greenwald have figured this out.  Thus, the only people who are emotionally invested in PolitiFact tend to fall into two categories.  First, there are zealots so wild-eyed that their ideology is Truth, with no “fact” outside their belief system.  Paul Krugman personifies this type, right down to his non-falsifiable belief in the gospel of Keynes.  Second, there are the partisan hacks who are only interested in “fact” as a political convenience.  Greg Sargent, who manages to make Bob Shrum look like a cross between Socrates and Hamlet, personifies this type even better than Steve Benen, which is undoubtedly why the WaPo hired Sargent.  Ironically, it’s the sharper ideologues who are interested in acknowledging a difference between fact and opinion.  PolitiFact is to be thanked for exposing this, if for nothing else.

–Karl

139 Responses to “PolitiFact’s 2011 Lie of the Year: A Surprise”

  1. Ding!

    Karl (f07e38)

  2. Politifact: Winner of the DC Gaffe of the Year prize.

    AD-RtR/OS! (1e1a0b)

  3. :roll: I guess they didn’t blame Climate Change and the polar bear extinction enough eh Politicrud?

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  4. Polar Bear extinction?

    Well, there’s this…
    http://www.naturalnews.com/033370_polar_bars_scientific_fraud.html

    AD-RtR/OS! (1e1a0b)

  5. Polifact is still a lefty site, but I am enjoying all the teeth-gnashing and ‘polifact is dead to me’ commenting by those on the far left. Lefties need their absurd claims to be substantiated by their allies and go nuts like the North Korean wailers when their worldview is even slightly challenged.

    NJRob (80a35c)

  6. Obama’s phony “Birth Certificate” deserves at least a dishonerable mention.

    ropelight (e687bc)

  7. But I concluded, based on the site’s general liberal skew, that it would award the dishonor to the claim that Obama’s stimulus created zero jobs

    Wow, you concede that the stimulus lie is a lie. Who knew growth was possible?

    timb (449046)

  8. B-but the WWF says they will go extinct in 45 years.

    /Lefty

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  9. Actually, timb, Obama’s stimulus cost jobs net.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  10. “Second, there are the partisan hacks who are only interested in “fact” as a political convenience. Greg Sargent, who manages to make Bob Shrum look like a cross between Socrates and Hamlet, personifies this type even better than Steve Benen…”

    To call Benen a hack is an insult to hacks. Benen is an undereducated nitwit and nothing more. How he has risen to the heights he has is one of the great mysteries of our day.

    Rich Horton (3ef32b)

  11. Please, SPQR, saying such a thing could be devastating to little timmie.
    Why, next thing he’ll learn is that there is no S…. C…., and then where would he be?

    AD-RtR/OS! (1e1a0b)

  12. timb,

    When you take money from the private sector and spend it inefficiently, this is a net loss, as SPQR notes.

    This administration has a record of terrible job growth. There are crafty ways of pretending otherwise. For example, the MSM can use a completely different way of evaluating job creation than they used for Bush.

    For Bush, it wasn’t a comparison against some catastrophic imagined depression (or just imagine how good he’d look post 9/11 and dot com bust).

    For Obama, they have to rely on such predictions to show even moderate success (And amusingly, we aren’t even doing as well as those predictions said we should be).

    There could not be a more biased way of doing business. Politifact and other MSM ‘objective’ sources are simply trying to fool you.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  13. Benen, is a UM grad and a former Clinton speech writer, the latter does not encourage clear thinking.

    narciso (87e966)

  14. Actually, Dustin, I’ve pointed this out to timb before – with a link to the actual study – but dishonesty is timb’s only forte.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  15. Yes, isn’t amazing how the only thing the Left is consistent about is being wrong.

    AD-RtR/OS! (1e1a0b)

  16. Oops…”isn’t it amazing”

    AD-RtR/OS! (1e1a0b)

  17. Of course you have, SPQR. Eventually it gets old carefully laying out the case in good faith, only to have it ignored.

    Huge government doesn’t work. It just doesn’t work. That money does more good organically. It’s not like Rick Perry is brilliantly directing the Texas government’s spending to perfect job growth. In fact, Texas would be better if they spent even less, and are where they are mainly because they occupy a smaller footprint of the economy than other states.

    Obama is a technocrat, trying to run the economy. The more of the economy he tries to run, the less efficient it is. You cannot win that game expect by trusting people to make their own economic choices, and see wealth generated by every private transaction, organically.

    The best is yet to come. When this government enters the next phase of Obamacare, controlling our economic choices on an unprecedented scale, demand will skyrocket. Demand for life-saving goods. Supply will not change (this is actually unrealistically optimistic). The government cannot control our way to happiness this way. Their ‘incentives’ to force everyone to do something they don’t want to… fines basically, show just how much in our interest they think these decisions are.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  18. hah! I thought of you Mr. Karl when I saw that on Drudge this morning

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  19. WaPo’s Greg Sargent calls it a “cheap and easy way to establish [a] fake aura of ‘balance’.”

    Notice that even Sargent appears to realized that PolitiFact has skewed hugely to the left and may now be trying to “affirmative action” (in his view) its way back into the good graces of moderates and conservatives.

    It won’t work. Politi”Fact” will continue as before, like John Stewart: Almost always left-leaning, but notable for the rare occasion when it points out a howler by a fellow leftist.

    Mitch (341ca0)

  20. Mitch, at least they know they can’t get away with being 100% shills.

    The smart ones, Jon Stewart and Politifact, realize they have to at least try, once in while, to note some of the left’s BS.

    The cracks in the left’s domination of the news have continued to grow and grow. Those who embrace reality and fill the niche of being reliable wind up making a ton of money in media.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  21. “Huge government doesn’t work.”

    It depends what you’re trying to do. If you want to eliminate individual freedom, and impoverish the citizenry, big government works great.

    Just look at the success the Russian and Chinese communists have had.

    Give the liberal Democrats a few more generations, and they’ll do the same thing here.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  22. “POTUS has Coffee with Progressive Media Stars”

    It’s good to know that the WH is being kept in the loop on what’s happening in the World…

    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/12/potus-has-coffee-with-progressive-media-stars/

    AD-RtR/OS! (1e1a0b)

  23. Ya got me there, Dave.

    If all you wanted to do was get everyone on health insurance, no matter how horrible health care would become, and how bankrupt the government would be as it struggled to tax and ‘fee’ enough wealth to pay for it… sure, Romneycare and Obamacare are well crafted.

    If you have a touch more depth, they are preposterous failures by design.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  24. AD, just imagining sneering Maddow trying to drink coffee with Obama with that permanent sneer on her face is very amusing. I hope she didn’t wear white, as I don’t see how her mouth doesn’t just dribble mercilessly.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  25. Johnny-One-Note rides agin…

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  26. Naughty, naughty Johnny…

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  27. I would speculate that Ms. Maddow was tempted to break-out her Bill Clinton knee-pads, and borrow some lip-balm from Slow-Joe, just to cover both aspects of her worship.

    AD-RtR/OS! (1e1a0b)

  28. Naughty, naughty Johnny…

    Comment by Colonel Haiku

    My joke was that if we get the government we deserve, we’ve been naughty, which is a Christmas reference. This really upsets you, doesn’t it?

    Fine. By all means be upset, Haiku. That’s what you’re good at.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  29. Dustin, I understand that Lisa Jackson has issued shoot-on-sight orders if Santa gives anyone a lump of coal this year.

    AD-RtR/OS! (1e1a0b)

  30. I would speculate that Ms. Maddow was tempted to break-out her Bill Clinton knee-pads, and borrow some lip-balm from Slow-Joe, just to cover both aspects of her worship.

    Comment by AD-RtR/OS! — 12/20/2011 @ 11:33 am

    I can only imagine. The feigned laughter at any potential joke Obama tells. The automatic venom for those evil Republicans.

    And not a soul in the room will be under the illusions it’s sincere.

    I think this is probably a big problem for Obama. I doubt he has many frank advisers. It’s probably like these threads when people lay out the facts about Mitt Romney. There are too many people who think they need to prove how loyal they are to Obama, so the frank (And much more valuable) advise is trashed, and the environment becomes a monotone bubble.

    There are a lot of people who don’t really care what Obama stands for, but think he is the brightest, more articulate, cleverest, etc, and they just get so mad when people dispense with the worship.

    Obama was already so inexperienced, but to lack frank advice is probably a greater (and compounding) problem for him.

    This is something that I detect from other circles too. The guy is not very experienced in politics, despite trying to run for 17 years, and yet he’s surrounded by people who praise him as a politician to the point where they favor him over those who are much more reliable on policy.

    It’s the preference of ‘prime time’ over performance. This is why Romney kept making the same exact mistake in MA over and over. He kept trying to triangulate with the left to prove he’s the centrist (where a freshman poli sci student thinks all the votes are). This works much better for a democrat than a republican, but even after the first few failures, he kept doing it.

    Even in 2010, he’s praising Obamacare for getting everyone in the country on insurance (its core problem) just to prove he’s the centrist. The defense of the facts here is simply to deny and insult those who bring them up.

    We need a president who has shown an ability to recognize mistakes and correct them, because this probably shows they have an advanced circle of advisers, which usually comes only after enough experience that we’re talking about a reelected governor.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  31. AD, I saw this at the bottom of your prior link.

    McDermott whining and whining about how we’re not giving the poor children anything but coal (unemployment benefits).

    Sigh.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  32. Dems and Repubs won’t take responsibility for their idiocy and If I’m a racist for bringing Dems into this so be it.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  33. Dustin, I must have overlooked that gem…
    completely natural (my overlooking of an evil cretin, that is) if it came from Baghdad Jim McDermott,
    the keeper of the Gingrich-Boehner cell-phone tape archives.

    AD-RtR/OS! (1e1a0b)

  34. Yeah, it’s pretty natural to just stop reading when you see “McDermott”. He’s just bottled up mendacity.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  35. He resides in the same crevice as timmie, tiffy, lovey, and an entire host of visitors here.

    AD-RtR/OS! (1e1a0b)

  36. I’m glad there are such august, non partisan organizations around like Politifact, willing to stand up & beat down the more egregious lies that rise to poison our political discourse.

    Silly Democrats.

    Ryancare guts Medicare, but it keeps the name.

    /sarc

    B.Obama (857644)

  37. it’s such a thankless job he has
    cuz he’s a perryman
    perryman… burnin’ his 4″ fuse
    up there alone

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  38. the 60 Minutes folks
    took pity on Big Zero
    his aggradaccio braggadaccio
    left on cutting room floor
    of history… the end.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  39. B.Osama don’t you have jooooooooooos to blame for your broken legs?

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  40. Wow, only one of them. It’s so weird just seeing one of them.

    Shouldn’t someone idly mention anti Mormon bigotry they heard elsewhere… for no reason but Al Shartponizing the discussion?

    How about a good old conspiracy theory with no evidence? Isn’t that called for yet?

    Dustin (cb3719)

  41. B.Obama, that’s just your lie. The idea of converting Medicare to a voucher system of private insurance is not “gutting” it. There would still be a government funded system of providing health care to retirees. It certainly is a radical transformation but its not “gutting” it nor is it ending it.

    So indeed, the claim of Republicans voting to “end” Medicare is a lie and you are just an accessory liar.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  42. This one surfaced too late for the Academy’s consideration…

    “The issue here is not going be a list of accomplishments. As you said yourself, Steve, you know, I would put our legislative and foreign policy accomplishments in our first two years against any president — with the possible exceptions of Johnson, F.D.R., and Lincoln — just in terms of what we’ve gotten done in modern history. But, you know, but when it comes to the economy, we’ve got a lot more work to do.”

    - el Presidente forevah, Barack Hussein Obama

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  43. Wow Karl Kruger was charged with corruption………..no surpise there.

    let us extend the payroll tax cut forever.

    Democraps will never agree with Republicans.

    Lori Berenson is an useful idiot for the guerrillas.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  44. Anyways What I’m trying to get at is Leftys are corrupt and evil to the core.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  45. “b.obama” is consistently mendoucheous.

    I still think the created or saved metric should win in perpetuity. Or the claim BarckyCare would reduce deficits and reduce costs nonsense. Close call.

    JD (269dac)

  46. Not extending payroll tax cuts for 2 months is evil extending it for a year is even more evil.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  47. timb,

    I refer in the post to PolitiFact’s finalists being “claims,” not “lies.” And the post makes clear that I still think PolitiFact frequently errs in treating legit debate into questions of “fact.” Reading is a skill.

    Also, had you clicked on the very first link in the post, my opinion of the stimulus claim would be pretty clear.

    Karl (f07e38)

  48. And my 2nd post in my comment was just me telling the Repubs what I think they should do.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  49. the comment at 1:08 PM.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  50. Lie of year?
    I think it was on hole #7 while Obama was playing his 400th round of golf since becoming president.

    David Christensen (3e2f9d)

  51. [Republicans are criticizing Eric Holder and Barack Obama over Fast and Furious] “due to the nature of our relationship and, you know, the fact that we’re both African-American.”

    There’s your lie of the year.

    Unfortunately, this ‘I’m just going throw the concept of bigotry out there’ concept is a problem with establishment Republicans too. I saw it with Michael Steele a lot, and occasionally see it regarding other RINOs.

    No, I wouldn’t be OK with gun trafficking and hundreds of deaths if Obama were white, Eric Holder.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  52. “Wow, you concede that the stimulus lie is a lie.”

    Well, I’m sure it created some jobs. After all, the Dems had to hire some additional bureaucrats to steal all that money, and then hand it out to themselves and their friends.

    Somebody has to write all those checks.

    As for it stimulating the economy…that’s the biggest joke of all time. Socialist redistibution of wealth has been tried for thousands of years…and, never suceeded in doing anything except increasing the size of totalitarian governments.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  53. In other words those calling for taxing the rich are useful idiots?

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  54. This whole adventure with “Politifact” somehow reminds me of the “Funniest Religion Joke Ever” …

    Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, “Don’t do it!” He said, “Nobody loves me.” I said, “God loves you. Do you believe in God?”

    He said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” He said, “A Christian.” I said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me, too! What franchise?” He said, “Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” He said, “Northern Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”

    He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” I said, “Me, too!

    Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.” I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over.

    Folks like Steve Benen, Paul Krugman, and Greg Sargent are always saying “Me too!” until they finally scream out “Die heretic!” when something doesn’t go their way.

    [note: released from moderation. --Stashiu]

    Neo (d1c681)

  55. let us extend the payroll tax cut forever.

    Sounds good to me. A tax cut is a tax cut.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  56. Tell it to the Jihadi in the House Milhouse.

    When you’ve lost the WSJ editorial, you’ve seriously lost the plot.

    How did Republicans manage to lose the tax issue to Obama?

    B.Obama (857644)

  57. SPROERFFPQR,

    As usual, factually wrong. Here’s the CBO:

    http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/budget/178109-cbo-finds-2009-stimulus-still-benefiting-economy

    Here’s a link to review 9 economist’s surveys
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/did-the-stimulus-work-a-review-of-the-nine-best-studies-on-the-subject/2011/08/16/gIQAThbibJ_blog.html

    Here’s a link to the CBO’s website where you can follow the impact of the stimulus: http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/collections.cfm?collect=12

    Here’s a quote from the director’s blog from 4/2010

    CBO has estimated the law’s impact on employment and economic output using evidence about the effects of previous similar policies on the economy and using various mathematical models that represent the workings of the economy. On that basis, CBO estimates that in the second quarter of calendar year 2010, ARRA’s policies:

    Raised the level of real (inflation-adjusted) gross domestic product (GDP) by between 1.7 percent and 4.5 percent,
    Lowered the unemployment rate by between 0.7 percentage points and 1.8 percentage points,
    Increased the number of people employed by between 1.4 million and 3.3 million, and
    Increased the number of full-time-equivalent (FTE) jobs by 2.0 million to 4.8 million compared with what those amounts would have been otherwise. (Increases in FTE jobs include shifts from part-time to full-time work or overtime and are thus generally larger than increases in the number of employed workers.)

    Jesus, sdrporqr, it’s not my fault you get lied to, but why are you stupid to accept the lies as truth? It’s a simple google search away.

    Oh, and by the way, if you get interest enough, follow the increase in private employment over the last 24 months and the decrease in state and local unemployment for a wonderful example of how stupid austerity is. The unemployed don’t pay taxes. You could also look at an England c. now

    timb (449046)

  58. Sursly never heard of Keynes? What a shock. Even more shocking is a good South Carolinian who opposes “social redistribution”.

    Apparently, surls never heard of the growth of the middle class or opposes it?

    Check on this study of austerity and how it doesn’t work, Dave, and then you can be happy knowing austerity hurts the economy.

    PS At some point, y’all will just have to explain to us Yankees how borrowing 700+ billion to pay teachers and build bridges “redistributed” anything.

    timb (449046)

  59. Dustin, you are, unsurprisingly, wrong, as the several studies I pointed out to “secondhand smoke does not cause cancer boy” above.

    Seriously, it’s hysterical you have never heard of a demand crisis; that you think borrowed money “comes out of the economy,” or that paying a school teacher is inefficient, while giving Steve Schmartzman another 50 million to put in the pile is more efficient than giving it to people who spend it.

    timb (449046)

  60. Let Timmah B Timmah.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  61. you think borrowed money “comes out of the economy,”

    Where does it come from?

    Gerald A (9d78e8)

  62. ; that you think borrowed money “comes out of the economy,”

    It … does.

    Do you know why a gallon of milk costs more than it did last year?

    They are printing money to lend to the treasury.

    There is no magical button they can push to create money. Debt is a real burden.

    BTW, yes, it is inefficient to pay a public school teacher, but I’m no anarchist. Pay the school teacher, police, the fire, pave the streets. Accept what government spending is needed. I don’t need a perfect system. But recognize that government spending is inherently inefficient.

    It’s not ‘giving’ wealthy people money to let them keep it. It’s not the government’s money to decide whether to give it to whoever earned it or give it to poor constituents.

    The fact is, redistributing wealth that way will inhibit investment. Sure, the poor folks will buy stuff, but so much of that is not going to have the long term impact that investments would.

    Let people earn and spend organically, investing people the regulation and taxation system are stable and predictable, and suddenly things work a whole lot better. These poor people you’re worried about will have more opportunities to earn a living.

    This is the difference between California and Texas.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  63. timb, you really are a moron. The CBO report measured no jobs. None. It just took the previously assumed multipliers, totaled up the amount spent to date and applied the multiplier. viola! Jobs.

    You know this. Its been pointed out to you before and yet you continue to misrepresent. You are a liar.

    If you had actually bothered to use Google, you would have found this paper which concludes a net job loss of 500 thousand using a more detailed examination of spending.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  64. follow the increase in private employment over the last 24 months and the decrease in state and local unemployment for a wonderful example of how stupid austerity is. The unemployed don’t pay taxes.

    Are you actually saying that hiring people to work for the government results in a net increase in government revenues?

    Gerald A (9d78e8)

  65. Timmeh go eff yourself.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  66. As for any improvement in unemployment, U6 – which means real unemployment better since it includes people who have given up looking for work altogether – is still at approx 16%.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  67. There are still people in Russia who vote communist. They saw some pretty convincing proof it doesn’t work no matter how hard to government spun it, but still they aren’t convinced.

    That’s not all that different from someone still supporting redistribution because the unemployed will pay some taxes back in. It should have been obvious from the start why this wouldn’t work, but now we even have three years of proof. And still, some will rush to the polls to vote for more.

    I’m sure they nod their heads when Michael Moore complains that there is plenty of wealth to pay for just about everything under the sun, too.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  68. “Sursly never heard of Keynes?”

    Of course, I’ve heard of Keynes. Too bad state directed econnomies never work, no matter what half-baked theories that halfwits like Marx or Keynes come up with, as you can observe for yourself by simply looking at places where government intervention was the norm, like in any communist country.

    Every single last one of them is/was a poverty stricken hellhole. No exceptions. Same thing throughout history. Meanwhile, the United States which, at one time, had hardly any government intervention in the economy became the richest country on the face of the planet. What a coincidence.

    Free markets work, state directed economies don’t. Always has been that way, and probably always will be.

    And, I’ve never even been to South Carolina, much less lived there…you blithering idiot.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  69. The U.S. median income for 2010 was $40,584.

    in 2010, California’s per capita income was $43,104, or 106.2% of the national average.

    in 2010, Texas’s per capita income was $39,493, or 97.3% of the national average.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  70. timmie is adament about central planning, he’s worked so hard on that Tree-Bark Recipe book using smuggled notes from NoKor camps.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  71. Further example of what an incompetent liar timb is, he linked to the Klein blog post that lists two studies that found that the stimulus did not help, including the study I linked to above, but seems to think that the post supports his claim that its irrefutable that the stimulus created jobs/economic improvement.

    To quote from the blog post timb links:

    Of the nine studies I’ve found, six find that the stimulus had a significant, positive effect on employment and growth, and three find that the effect was either quite small or impossible to detect.

    So what timb linked to actually establishes that it is not a lie to claim that the stimulus did not create jobs.

    That’s how incompetently dishonest timb is. Linking to stuff that he didn’t read and does not support his claims.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  72. Forrest Gump: Stupid is as stupid does!

    Gen. Honore: Don’t be stuck on stupid, people!

    timb: Hey, that’s me!

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  73. O/T fm NYT…
    “Iraqi Leader Threatens to Abandon Power-Sharing”

    Civil War starts in 10..9..8..7..

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  74. in 2010, California’s per capita income was $43,104, or 106.2% of the national average.

    in 2010, Texas’s per capita income was $39,493, or 97.3% of the national average.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 12/21/2011 @ 10:11 am

    Yes, inflation is indeed the liberal curse, Haiku.

    Thanks for explaining one of many reasons the Texas way is a lot better than the Cali or MA way.

    That Texan wage can afford someone a vastly better life in Texas than the Cali wage can afford someone in Cali. We all know that.

    And even then, Texas’s government occupies a much smaller share of Texas’s economy. For every dollar earned in Texas, the government’s slice is much smaller than it is in just about any other state. No matter who you like for President, Texas’s policies are clearly better and we should hope they are emulated.

    That’s why I don’t know many businesses that are moving from Texas to California.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  75. And what most people dont’ get about Keynes is that in his book, stimulus spending was kept in a rainy day fund, to be deployed AS you go into debt, or when things are just starting to turn down.

    That implies zero level.

    We are already 15 trillion in the whole, 90+% of our current GDP. Keynes would never have advocated stimulus then.

    luagha (5cbe06)

  76. Keynes advocated tax reductions and increased govt spending in down times, and tax increases and reduced govt spending in up times to keep inflation under control.
    Unfortunately, the pols only know to spend, never to save – except as the lie that their spending is an “investment”.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  77. And what most people dont’ get about Keynes is that in his book, stimulus spending was kept in a rainy day fund,

    Yep. He didn’t want us to just spend unlimited deficit dollars to super-stimulate. He wasn’t insane.

    Those suggesting current spending is Keynesian are making a good point of comparison, but no way would he have supported the permanent or insanely huge trillion dollar deficit.

    In fact, he’s probably call this situation a straw man if you tried to say it proved him wrong.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  78. I’m reminded of that line in annie Hall, with Macluhan, reproaching a professor ‘you know nothing of my work, you teach a class in this’

    narciso (87e966)

  79. In 2009, Texas had 17.2% (ranking it #44) of it’s citizens living below the poverty line, while California had 14.2% (ranking it #28).

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  80. Trust me, Col. I would much rather be “poor” in TX, with its’ vastly lower cost-of-living, than be in the same condition here in CA – and if I could sell this house at anywhere near a realistic number, I would have been gone long ago.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  81. “POTUS has Coffee with Progressive Media Stars”

    – The Journolist has come home to roost!

    BTW, I have to question the accuracy of Jake Tapper’s reporting. He claims that Rachel Maddow and Rachel Maddow in drag (Chris Hayes) were in the same room at the same time. Don’t you believe it!

    Icy (826767)

  82. That isn’t the issue, AD. We keep being told how successful Rick Perry has been, what bravery he’s shown, when the facts indicate otherwise.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  83. The facts are what is happening – and has happened for the last 12-yrs – on-the-ground in TX.

    As someone posted today somewhere that I stumbled across, businesses (and people) are moving from CA to TX, not the reverse.

    That, to me, is a pretty hard indicator that to the people who matter, TX is a better place (and a better run place) than is CA.

    Your personal animosity for the Gov is a distraction from whatever merits your argument may have –
    if there are any beyond that dislike you so admirably and forcebly put forth, even though it makes you a smaller person in the eyes of many.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  84. In 2009, Texas had 17.2% (ranking it #44) of it’s citizens living below the poverty line, while California had 14.2% (ranking it #28).

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 12/21/2011 @ 11:11 am
    /blockquote>

    This is pretty damn silly.

    You have to rank them on income alone.

    Texans earning ‘poor’ levels of income live much better than Californians.

    The fact is, the way we see poverty is inherently communist. There is no way to change the poverty level in the country. If you double everyone’s income, the poverty rate stays the same.

    Taking a state with a much higher cost of living and comparing to a state with a lower one, to prove that Rick Perry is a failure, is simply a liberal way of seeing things.

    What really matters is that Texas is a place creating a majority of the jobs in this country. We’re where people are creating or relocating businesses and opportunities.

    BTW, Haiku has repeatedly claimed that Perry was “forced” to cut education spending, and he’s never backed that up.

    The fact is, his own links proved that Perry had many options other than cutting this agency, and Haiku simply reported the opposite.

    I like that Perry was brave enough to cut a sacred cow like education. Romney, of course, increased education spending despite his government being far larger per capita than Perry’s. Even as Romney claimed he was there to clean up, he really didn’t have the spine to do it. Perry did. Just one of many differences.

    If you think like Haiku does, then Perry is not your man.

    I think such statistics are not at all the invitation for government to intervene that Haiku thinks they are. All Perry can do is keep cutting spending, which he has done hundreds of times, and keep regulation predictable and reasonable, which is also his record.

    Then, the economy will take care of itself. Technocrats scoff at this. Why, look at all those people earning less than the line the technocrats drew! Oh no! Won’t Mitt Romney use government to fix that? Come on. Tax the rich!

    Dustin (cb3719)

  85. BTW, with all of those “cuts” to education, how do TX K-12 students rank on the NAEP lists re CA?
    And, what does TX spend per student v. CA?

    Put up, or shut up!
    I’m getting quite sick of this poo-flinging.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  86. I do at least appreciate that Haiku is presenting an ideological difference.

    He wants Perry to do more for the poor, the way California does, and the way Romney did in MA.

    That is a honest difference of ideology.

    I don’t agree with his ideology, but at least I can see why he doesn’t like Perry now.

    I personally think the record shows how looking at poverty lines to see where the government should spend and help is just not a good idea. It feels good emotionally, but it doesn’t work. Government can’t spend it way to prosperity.

    It takes a spine to avoid this temptation… just let the jobs come and let the people improve their own lot, and long term, things are healthier. But this isn’t what everyone thinks, and it’s fair for the GOP to decide what the GOP is all about.

    I want one direction, Haiku wants another.

    If we just ignore all the comments about the candidates personally (neither Haiku or myself are saints here) we can really see that there is something important being debated.

    I want the USA to be more like Texas. And as a cynic, I want other GOP governors and politicians to see that the best way to advance their careers is to govern like Perry has.

    I sincerely appreciate that Haiku is bringing an elevated argument from what we’ve been engaged in recently. This is what it’s really about.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  87. I totally understand where AD is coming from. This is how I initially reacted too.

    It’s so frustrating, because even if you think Perry made a mess of the early debates and thus question his electability, don’t trash Texas’s success… what a mistake that is, tactically, for conservatism.

    But this is really a better way to argue than the alternative.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  88. It was noted in a posting over at Instapundit (yesterday, I think) that the Federal Government has spent, since LBJ’s initiation of his Great Society Programs, something like $17Trillion on the “War on Poverty”.
    Someone please remind me what the National Debt of the United States is currently?

    The best way out of poverty is
    1- Be employed
    2- Be married
    3- Don’t have kids before marriage

    There may be more indices, but these three pretty much cover-the-field.

    No society has ever spent itself into prosperity!

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  89. The U.S. median income for 2010 was $40,584.
    in 2010, California’s per capita income was $43,104, or 106.2% of the national average.
    in 2010, Texas’s per capita income was $39,493, or 97.3% of the national average.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 12/21/2011 @ 10:11 am

    – According to costoflivingbystate.org :
    Texas Ranks 2nd in overall cost of living.
    [California ranks] near the bottom in living costs.

    By the numbers, on the 2010 cost of living index:
    TX 90.5 (9.5 points BELOW the national average)
    CA 135.1 (35.1 points ABOVE the national average)

    Does the extra $3600 per year that Californians earn cover
    all of that increased cost of living? Man, I sure hope so!

    Icy (826767)

  90. No society has ever spent itself into prosperity!

    Was there someone making the argument for increased government spending?

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  91. Does the extra $3600 per year that Californians earn cover all of that increased cost of living? Man, I sure hope so!

    Although $300 a month is nothing to sneeze at, I wasn’t making a claim that California isn’t broken, Icy. I live in California and I know it is. We keep hearing what a freakin’ success story Texas is and I don’t think the facts support that.

    Texas ranks down there with Mississippi, DC and Puerto Rico.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  92. Supply and Demand:

    20′ U-Haul truck (recommended for moving contents for 3-bdrm home) with pickup in suburban L.A. and dropoff in Austin TX….
    $1597!

    Austin to L.A………….$595!
    (rates, as explained on their website, are determined by S&D)

    Someone in the real world thinks that it is better to be in TX than in CA.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  93. Someone in the real world thinks that it is better to be in TX than in CA.

    And they are welcomed to it. I’ve spent enough time in Texas to appreciate California, for all of its faults.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  94. At a certain point, the faults begins to outweigh the positives, which is why (for many) moving from CA is an attractive alternative to remaining.
    The disparity in one-way rental rates is an indictment of the political-class within CA that has made the economic environment so toxic, but due to the political quirks that exist, they will survive until the last incandescent lightbulb burns out and a sat-pix of CA looks like NoKor.
    But, Hey!, the beaches won’t be crowded, though the roads will be so far from passable that it might be difficult getting to one.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  95. So, let’s say that the median US household making $40,584 spends $30,000 on cost of living expenses, with $10,584 left over. The comparable TX household spends $27,150, leaving $12,343 extra, while the comparable CA household spends $40,530, leaving just $2574 for discretionary spending.

    Icy (826767)

  96. Cali is gorgeous. I love visiting.

    Last time I was there, the meter maids were on strike so I parted in 15 minute parking at La Jolla for three hours.

    It’s comforting that these things work themselves out. Liberal politicians in MA and Cali don’t control so much that the people can’t just up and head somewhere more sane.

    I also think Boston is gorgeous. Frankly there is no place in Texas, even Lake Travis or South Padre, that competes with the prettiest spots in some blue states.

    Thank goodness for Southwest airlines.

    BTW my house has appreciated 20% in the last two years. There are factories opening all around me. I know I earn at least a fifth less than I would earn if I were in California, but that’s really not something I’ve ever lost sleep over.

    The only reason to live in California is the scenery or family. Both perfectly valid and powerful reasons, btw.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  97. And they are welcomed to it. I’ve spent enough time in Texas to appreciate California, for all of its faults.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 12/21/2011 @ 12:09 pm

    Texas is a wonderful place, Haiku. If you’re ever in the Austin area, I will happily put aside our political differences and show you a good time.

    Even in West Texas, you can be very happy. The people are really great out there.

    You can go your whole life barely even aware of government, other than issues relating to driving a car and your mortgage.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  98. The National Association of Realtors has revised existing home sales 14% lower for the past four years.

    Is there any economic indicator that hasn’t been lied about, and is constantly being revised downward?

    Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/existing-home-sales-2011-12#ixzz1hCfE5EBk

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  99. And just imagine, Haiku, if we could have Texas’s government replace California’s out there.

    That’s what I want for you and the rest of my country. That’s why I reject Mitt Romney. We need to change direction, not expertly head in the same direction by replacing Obama with a much smarter liberal/moderate.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  100. Of course we’ve heard of Keynes. We’ve also heard of Lamarck, Velikovsky, Duesberg, Columbus, and other people whose crackpot theories were popular for a time but didn’t work out.

    Milhouse (d7842d)

  101. We keep hearing what a freakin’ success story Texas is and I don’t think the facts support that.

    – Colonel, having just finished a three-year stint living in Texas (“Icy Texan”, remember?) the best I can do is relate my personal experience:
    I made more money — by far, and adjusted for inflation — in 2009 & 2010 than during any other time during the 20 years I have spent in my chosen profession.
    Cost of living is lower than here in Arizona, especially the cost of food and housing.
    No state income tax; and yet, their budget problems (such as they exist) PALE in comparison to CA.
    Lower crime rate; people are friendlier (subjective observation).
    Plus, although we never met face-to-face, I had DRJ for a neighbor!

    I work for a multi-unit franchise of a national company. The units in West Texas literally do almost two-and-a-half times the amount of business compared to the units here in Southern Arizona. I moved back for family reasons; if the decision to leave or stay had been one of pure economics it would be a total no-brainer, and my screen name would still be Icy Texan.

    Icy (826767)

  102. This is the silliest argument Col has ever tried against Perry/TX.

    JD (269dac)

  103. “Cali is gorgeous. I love visiting.”

    I feel the same way about Texas. Nice place to visit, friendly folks…but, there’s no way in hell I’d ever live there again.

    I’ll take California any day of the week.

    And, that’s why they make chocolate AND vanilla…as the saying goes.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  104. Much of Texas is mired in poverty, JD. It’s fair to say that it’s a fairly hardscrabble existence for much of the state. Do you dispute that? I keep reading on these threads what a powerhouse the valiant Rick Perry has fashioned out of Texas.

    The facts – numbers, hard data – say otherwise.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  105. I should add that there’s really no need to “try an argument” against Rick Perry. He, himself, has proven to be the strongest argument against a Perry candidacy.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  106. Mired in poverty?
    What alternate reality do you reside in?
    tiffy isn’t even that delusional.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  107. HALP US JON KARY WE R STUK IN TEXUS

    SO HUNGRY

    Dustin (cb3719)

  108. And, that’s why they make chocolate AND vanilla…as the saying goes.

    Comment by Dave Surls

    Fair enough.

    I’m glad our country is a place for many different kinds of folks to live their various different ways. Let MA be what it wants, so long as it doesn’t intrude on TX being what it wants.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  109. near the bottom in infant mortality, low birth weight, etc. … 49% of children in Texas live in low-income families with household income below the federal poverty level. Try putting a smiley face on all that.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  110. Col. If you break out those numbers by county, I’ll bet you a donut to a dollar that what you’re talking about is in the Rio Bravos Valley, and in the minority communities of San Antonio, Dallas-Ft Worth, and Houston.

    Again, there are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  111. What’s amazing is how Texas thrives despite the influx of illegals. Our education system is awesome, despite what most states just couldn’t handle. Their unionized systems mock us with statistics that mislead. For example, they show how Texas is behind, if you lump all together. But Texas is ahead in every single silly category (such as hispanics, whites, etc), and just happens to have a much larger amount of the worst performing category (Again, even those in this group are better off in Texas).

    Yep, Texas has an influx of people, including the unempoyed. It’s kinda like the Grapes of Wrath. Jobless folks are coming to Texas in droves. Even though our population is soaring at the expense of states like New York, our unemployment level is stable (because jobs are being created here). The poor are making a wise decision coming here, and competition for jobs is healthy despite employers hiring so many new workers.

    It’s not utopia. We share a huge border with Mexico and our administration has done worse than neglect it. Hell, at times, the Texas border can be hellish, even.

    But we’re doing well. Texas is a good state.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  112. Patently silly, Colonel. Aggressively so. It is disappointing, coming from you.

    JD (269dac)

  113. None are so foolish as a fellow Old Fool.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c22768)

  114. Data is what it is, JD. As always, who is offended is wholly dependent on who owns the ox that has been gored.

    I’m not saying that child poverty and sub-standard living conditions in Texas are the fault of Rick Perry. I’m saying that the state isn’t quite the fiery success story some have gone to great lengths to paint it as.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  115. It’s not really going to great lengths to show how Texas is really doing fantastic on economic growth and job growth, and why (taxes and regulation for the most part).

    If you think that’s some huge deception, well, I don’t know what to say.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  116. Colonel – you tried to use figures for per capita income and poverty line % to show that CA is better than TX. You are smart enough to know why that was so disingenuous, and deceptive. Yet, you persist. Your act is getting tiresome.

    JD (269dac)

  117. As the snow flies,
    On a cold and grey Houston mornin’
    A poor little Texas child is born in the ghetto

    And his mama cries
    ‘Cause if there’s one thing that she don’t need
    It’s another Texan mouth to feed in the ghetto

    People, don’t you understand
    The child needs a helping hand
    Or he’ll grow to be an angry young man some day
    Take a look at you and me,
    Are we too blind to see,
    Or do we simply turn our heads and look the other way?

    Dustin (cb3719)

  118. Wrong, JD. I admitted California is broken, and in a bad way… perhaps you overlooked that.

    It’s broken and yet it has a higher ranking in terms of median income and in terms of the health of children – which, I would submit, is a key indicator of the general health and well-being of a state – than Texas.

    It’s getting tedious having to explain this to those who, I suspect, know as much.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  119. Colonel Haiku, yes your bizarre idea that if Texas measures below California on some randomly selected measure, that that alone is an indictment of Perry’s tenure of governor … yes, that is tedious.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  120. no, Haiku, JD sincerely means what he says when he notes your argument isn’t up to his standards.

    He’s said the same to me regarding remarks I’ve made about Romney on at least two occasions. On one of those occasions, I had to return and admit I was wrong.

    The way you’re comparing TX doesn’t actually refute that the “great lengths” folks go to in trying to explain what is going well in Texas.

    Open your mind to Perry’s arguments. He’s made several ads explaining why Texas’s economy attracts jobs and has organic prosperity. Even if you don’t think he’s electable, I think you should be able to grant that he’s right. He proposes making DC more like Texas with a few fundamental reforms that will take great effort to enact, but that’s what I think we should do, whether we nominate Perry, Romney, or Newt.

    Even in California, you can support GOP candidates for Congress who want the same.

    Texas is obviously doing something right, and the job creation is undeniable.

    Well, it is deniable, I guess. Paul Krugman famously claimed everyone is coming to Texas from California because of the warm weather (even from California?).

    But Texas has about a tenth of the national population and has added about forty percent of the jobs. Something is working here. It’s not magic and it’s not a deception. For all the problems here, and indeed we’ve actually had some challenging events in recent years, I think Texas is proof that if you keep regulation stable and predictable, and get taxes reduced because spending is under control, prosperity will take care of itself. Now, this is a problem for politicians who want to point to their own control of this or that to prove they ‘created’ something. We can all see how Perry is not really given credit for what we really should want all governors and legislators and our president to support.

    Something is fundamentally messed up in our political system, and performance is no longer as important as this weird reality show the RNC and MSNBC and FNC and CNN have arranged for us.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  121. Median income is meaningless without taking cost of living into account. Absolutely meaningless. And you know it. You now switch to infant mortality, since the deceptive poverty line nonsense didn’t work for you. But we understand. When it comes to Perry and Texas, this is what we expect from you.

    JD (318f81)

  122. What is deceptive about the “poverty line”, JD? Texas is right there with Miss, Puerto Rico, Washington, D.C. and Kentucky. I’ve said that California is in terrible shape, I don’t claim it’s a success story, and yet there is sits with a higher ranking than the state that I keep reading stories that are filled with awe… wide-eyed wondrous descriptions of awesomeness and inspired tales of the bravery and just plain, ol’ awesomeness of one Rick Perry.

    I’m saying there’s a disconnect with reality.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  123. “Much of Texas is mired in poverty, JD.”

    Well, there’s some truth to that, but it’s because Texas, like the rest of the south was controlled by the Democrats for generations, so naturally, the south is the poorest, most backwards part of the nation.

    Now, that the Democrat party stranglehold has been broken (back in the 1960s and 1970s), the south is finally start to bounce back.

    But, give it some time. It ain’t gonna happen in 15 minutes. It’ll take decades for the south to fully recover from being ruled by the loathsome Democrats for so long.

    In the years to come, expect the south to become the leading part of the country…and watch the northeast part of the country and California decline, decline, decline as those section have moved from being staunchly Republican to Democrat.

    You just wait and see.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  124. I know this is off topic, but:

    Righteous update from our friend Aaron.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  125. Well that’s been true for 20-25 years, Dave, the problem is that many of these same folk, who ruined
    their bailiwick, like a scene of WD, move to Colorado, NH, et al, and turn them purple if not blue, California is dead as the eight track tape
    that Jerry Brown’s reemergence indicates,

    narciso (87e966)

  126. Let’s deal with your first meaningless claim, that CA having a higher per capita income than TX is meaningful. Do you agree or disagree that in and of itself, the stat itself is meaningless? Do you agree or disagree that cost of living is a driving factor that would influence that? Would 40,000k get you the same house and lifestyle in Houston or Austin in comparison to LA or San Fran?

    JD (318f81)

  127. Well, there’s some truth to that, but it’s because Texas, like the rest of the south was controlled by the Democrats for generations, so naturally, the south is the poorest, most backwards part of the nation.

    Yes, Texas – and most of the South – was controlled by Democrats for decades. And, yes, things are improving. That can’t (and shouldn’t) be denied.

    What I’m trying to highlight is that using hyperbole and rose-colored glasses to describe who and what one favors while passively/ aggressively presenting some (certainly not all) “friendly opposition” in the worst possible light and with a lack of candor and honesty at critical times is no virtue.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  128. Do similar jobs pay similar wages in those towns? Can a paralegal have the same earning power in each town, or State? Do entry level jobs pay the same in each state? Is the lifestyle of someone above the imaginary povety line better in CA than someone just below the same imaginary line in TX?

    JD (318f81)

  129. Colonel Haiku, frankly you should stick to japanese style poetry because your attempts at logic get stuck in non sequitur.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  130. Thanks for the unsolicited advice, oh self-anointed One.

    Colonel Haiku (8699c3)

  131. Top Ten K-12 Teacher Salaries by State
    1. California $70,394
    2. Massachusetts $65,897
    3. New York $64,583
    4. Virginia $59,585
    5. Illinois $58,756
    6. Texas $58,325
    7. Pennsylvania $56,629
    8. Georgia $56,227
    9. Florida $53,789
    10. Ohio $53,309

    Here’s a good starting point, but remember to adjust for the fact that while CA has a 10% (approx) SIT starting at $46K for a single filer IIRC, TX has NO SIT.

    Carlos (c22768)

  132. Colonel Haiku, unsolicited advice is my specialty.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  133. What I’m trying to highlight is that using hyperbole and rose-colored glasses to describe who and what one favors while passively/ aggressively presenting some (certainly not all) “friendly opposition” in the worst possible light and with a lack of candor and honesty at critical times is no virtue.

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 12/21/2011 @ 6:44 pm

    I won’t rag on your sentence. I’m capable of being a terrible writer all the time.

    If what you’re trying to say is I’ve been passive aggressive, I’m not sure why.

    I am very direct and upfront when I criticize Romney. Sometimes I’ve defended him and you seem to think I am actually making a passive aggressive attack, but this isn’t what I intended.

    I disagree with Romneycare and many other things Romney did as governor, and many of the arguments he’s made out of power. Nothing passive aggressive about it.

    I really would rather the USA be more like Texas and less like California or MA. I think we should reward politicians whose records are like that. Sure, Romney was swimming upstream, if you think he was fighting the good fight. I don’t think he was fighting the good fight. I think he was simply splitting the difference in the way RINOs do with democrats, and this is not what I want from the White House in 2013.

    Perry isn’t just dumbly running on how Texas has succeeded. He offers several smart proposals that would change how DC does business, making what worked for Perry in Texas work for Perry (and everyone else) in DC.

    But you don’t think Texas is really what the USA should be trying to emulate, so we just disagree on some basic things, and that’s OK. It would be a boring thread if we all agreed on everything.

    Maybe take it less personally. Same goes for me. I’ve enjoyed these threads a lot more since I gave up worrying about that stuff (and I’m more persuasive too).

    Dustin (cb3719)

  134. “Here’s a good starting point, but remember to adjust for the fact that while CA has a 10% (approx) SIT starting at $46K for a single filer IIRC, TX has NO SIT.”

    You also have to consider prices in California, as other posters have noted.

    I live in a rundown (’cause I’m too lazy to maintain it) 800 square foot shack…and last year I was offered $525,000 for it by one of my neighbors. Three or four years ago another neighbor offered me $650,000 for it.

    You non-Californians can compare that to what your homes are worth…and then feel free to faint dead away.

    Wages are higher here, because prices are totally insane.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  135. Haiku is a douschewaffle.

    Dohbiden (ef98f0)

  136. Still no attempt by timb to try to repair the fact that he has been caught lying again.

    SPQR (26be8b)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.3877 secs.