Patterico's Pontifications

11/16/2011

Republicans (and Ramesh Ponnuru) lose way by misreading Bush era

Filed under: General — Karl @ 2:16 pm



[Posted by Karl]

The latest Bloomberg column from Ramesh Ponnuru argues that the GOP continues to make mistakes because they misdiagnose the party’s failures as stemming from a failure to be sufficiently conservative.  He concedes Bush-era Republicans did spend too much and benefitted in 2010 from rejecting the Obama agenda.  However:

Republicans were more popular in Bush’s first term, when they were expanding entitlements, than in his second term, when they were trying to reform one (Social Security). For most of the second term, they exercised more spending restraint than they had done in the first term — and again, there was no evidence it helped them politically.

***

If Republican overspending drove voters away, they should have lost support first among conservatives. But there was no sign of a demoralized base in 2006. Exit polls found that self- identified Republicans made up a healthy 36 percent of the electorate that year, and they voted for the party’s candidates by roughly the same huge margin they had voted for them in the banner Republican year of 2004. It was among independent voters that Republicans got slaughtered. (House Republicans lost independents by three points in 2004, but 18 points in 2006.)

It seems much more likely that Republicans lost in 2006 because of the bleeding in Iraq, corruption in Washington, wage stagnation and the lack of any agenda by the party to do anything about these or other problems. Some of these issues had faded in importance by 2008, but in that year voters were also ready for a change after eight years of Republican control of the White House and, above all, dismayed by the economic crisis. In 2008, 60 percent of voters said the Republican presidential candidate, John McCain, wasn’t “in touch with people like them” — and 79 percent of people who felt that way voted against him. That’s what defeated Republicans, not a perception that they were doctrinally impure.

Ponnuru concludes:

Republicans had nothing to say about wage stagnation then and are saying nothing about it now. The real cost of Republicans’ fixation on ideological purity is that it distracts them from their real problems, and the nation’s.

I like to talk and write about policy.  I agree that the GOP does not focus on policy as much as it should.  But Ponnuru’s conclusion does not follow from his argument.

Rather, what Ponnuru establishes is that a weakly recovering economy, an unpopular war, perceived corruption and the perception of incompetence (both in Iraq and after Hurricane Katrina, both not fully deserved) produced a Democratic Congress in 2006.  And since we’re discussing ideology, Rahm Emanuel’s recruitment of more moderate candidates may have been a factor as well.  Aside from the Bush Doctrine, Republican policy — or the lack thereof — was not a major factor, if it was a factor at all.

Similarly, what Ponnuru establishes is that having Wall Street melt down at the start of the 2008 general election as the economy was already headed into a recession was an obviously bad thing for the party holding the White House.  If the election had to do with policy, voters might have credited McCain for pushing the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act in 2005 to rein in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and require more stringent regulation by the Department of Housing and Urban Development, while Barack Obama — who did nothing — was on his way to becoming a top recipient of of donations from Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Wall Street firms enmeshed in the subprime mortgage mess.  Indeed, at the outset of 2008, McCain was closer to where most voters saw themselves ideologically, relative to Obama.  None of that mattered.   The fact that 47.4% of voters did not think McCain was in touch with them is what you would expect in any year where the Democrat won.  Voters’ 401(k) plans rapidly evaporating? That mattered.

As for the independent vote, there are a great number of myths about it:

It’s true that independents are a diverse group. But that’s mostly because the large majority of independents are independents in name only. Research by political scientists on the American electorate has consistently found that the large majority of self-identified independents are “closet partisans” who think and vote much like other partisans. Independent Democrats and independent Republicans have little in common. Moreover, independents with no party preference have a lower rate of turnout than those who lean toward a party and typically make up less than 10% of the electorate. Finally, independents don’t necessarily determine the outcomes of presidential elections; in fact, in all three closely contested presidential elections since 1972, the candidate backed by most independent voters lost.

I would suggest that last phenomenon has to do with closet partisans shifting in and out of official affiliation with the party to which they lean.  After Watergate, Democrat leaners felt comfortable identifying as Democrats, while GOP leaners preferred to call themselves independent.  Despite Clinton’s impeachment, Democrats did not feel greatly disaffiliated from the party label with Clinton leaving in 2000.  In the first post-9/11 election, Republican leaners felt more comfortable officially identifying as GOP; thus, “independents” likely skewed towards liberals unhappy with the Democrats as an institution.  The smaller segment of true independents are probably the least likely to know about, let alone be swayed by specific policy proposals beyond generalities (“tax cuts,” “health care reform,” etc.). Pure independents are the group most likely to vote on the state of the economy.

Ponnuru compares the independent vote in 2004 and 2006; I could as easily note the Dems had an 8% advantage with indies in 2008, only to lose them by 19% in 2010.  That swing was not the result of GOP policy proposals.  To the extent policy mattered, it was voters in a midterm election (where the base turnout is more of a factor) rejecting Democratic policy.  Independents likely skewed rightward after the 2008 election loss; true indies were likely expressing their displeasure over economic stagnation.

Again, I like talking and writing about policy.  But most voters vote party, with true swing voters largely voting on the presence or absence of peace and prospertity.  To a carpenter, every problem is a nail.  To a wonk, every problem is a policy debate.  While I would like to see more emphasis on policy from the GOP, we should not pretend that it matters much more than ideological purity does in the voting booth.

–Karl

153 Responses to “Republicans (and Ramesh Ponnuru) lose way by misreading Bush era”

  1. I agree. People who vote based on principles probably already identify with a political party or ideology. Swing-voters aren’t overtly partisan and they probably aren’t going to swing one way or the other based on principles or ideology.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  2. But there was no sign of a demoralized base in 2006.

    Just what Galaxy, far far away, does this guy live in?
    (Oh, it must be NYC…as they say in that salsa commercial “Get a Rope!”)
    One of the contributing factors to the GOP loss in ’06 was the “very conservative” base sitting on its hands after all of that overspending,
    and the imbroglio over immigration, McCain-Feingold, and The Gang of 14!

    It would be nice if commentators on The American Condition had just the tiniest connection to that melieu that they wish to criticize.
    Ramesh, do yourself and your readers a favor, and move into the Heartland, it will be good for you, and just could make you a more complete person.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  3. See you all in a couple hours, got some chores to do.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  4. Just imagine if Bush, Delay, and Frist had balanced the damn budget.

    I know it would have been hard to do, and they had the GWOT to excuse spending, but they should have seen the long term picture and made the cuts needed to afford government on each year’s revenue.

    The world would be a much better place had they done this. They failed, and with that failure, it became harder to distinguish the political parties on domestic policy. That is a fatal error for the GOP.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  5. Unions are annoying.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  6. If Republican overspending drove voters away, they should have lost support first among conservatives. But there was no sign of a demoralized base in 2006. Exit polls found that self- identified Republicans made up a healthy 36 percent of the electorate that year, and they voted for the party’s candidates by roughly the same huge margin they had voted for them in the banner Republican year of 2004

    .

    Wrong on several levels:

    1) If conservative voters were ticked off, to whom would they have turned to “vote against” the overspending of the GOP? The Left has been consistently fielding candidates since the late 1990s that generally need to look rightward with a telescope just to see Ralph Nader.

    2) The “reduced poll presence” argument is based on the notion that
    a) 2006 wasn’t also a referendum on the Iraq War
    b) That the GOP base wasn’t still highly interested in voting against those far-left-of-Nader candidates.

    I’d cite 2a as an issue that brought out a lot of the GOP base despite their disgust with the GOP in general.

    Smock Puppet, Victim of Gender Discrimination. Yes, I am. (2fb1c2)

  7. What exactly is Ponnoru’s point? Let’s suppose he’s right, and the GOP’s error was not in being too spendy. Let’s suppose he’s right that people liked them better when they were even more spendy. What should we conclude from this? That the GOP should go on spending like drunken Democrats?! That spending more will win us elections? Maybe so, but what would be the point? Why bother winning elections if we’re just going to govern like Democrats anyway? Why should we support the GOP if they’re going to be like Democrats anyway? Why not just leave the field to the Democrats, who like power, and devote our energies to something useful, like the quest for crisp and delicious okra?

    Milhouse (f8511c)

  8. “I would suggest that last phenomenon has to do with closet partisans shifting in and out of official affiliation with the party to which they lean.”

    Cogent analysis, echoing Stan Greenberg a month or so ago. In a binary sense, Indies are a bimodal population, straddling the GOP.

    In a quaternary sense it is a combination of fiscal and social concerns, poorly correlated, each individual weighs from independent continua.

    For example, swing voters, part of the 52% voting for Obama in 2008 are social liberals and fiscal moderates falling to the left of the bulk of Republican party members in both an unary and binary estimation.

    They rarely cast a vote for a Republican but find little to identify with in loyal Democrats.

    Me thinks the Elite apologists doth protest too much, courting defeat in pursuit of their ideal.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  9. P.S., I am very much an independent voter — I will vote for any candidate who supports my own libertarian ideals. Further, I’ll tend to vote for one of those very few “honorable” politicians over party. I would seriously consider voting for Lieberman, for example, though I generally oppose his policies. Just for the fact that he was willing to stand up to the squalling Dems on the war in Iraq, on principle.

    I will also ack that I voted for Clinton the first time, since he did give the appearance of being a more middle of the road candidate than Bush I did, along with other issues, some of which turned out to be prevarications promoted by the Leftmedia just beginning its slide into full “rah-rah, Left, go team go!” mode.

    I will state that I’ve had a very, very hard time NOT voting GOP in the last 10 years. It seems like every candidate put up by the Dems is, as noted above, unable to see Ralph Nader, standing at the far right of where they are. They tend to make Kucinich sound rational…

    So, while I am certainly a “swing” voter, I just don’t swing that far Left under any circumstances.

    Smock Puppet, Victim of Gender Discrimination. Yes, I am. (2fb1c2)

  10. We also find it amusing that Gingrich is being questioned for making upwards of $1.8 million over eight years as a consultant to Fannie and Freddy.

    Allah, the Cap’n, et al., at HotAir were all over this yesterday wondering just what evil he undergirded.

    I bet the GSEs considered it money well spent if it kept him mostly on the bench.

    Let’s cut the fantasy, the Dems aren’t the source of all the muckracking, its the GOP Elites.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  11. I think lessons #’s 1, 2, and 3 are when you let the opposition paint you as a bunch of lying, dishonest, power-mad radicals and do not give an adequate defense, some people will believe you are lying, dishonest, power-mad radicals, and will not vote for you.

    “Bush lied and people died”, you know. Valerie Plame’s husband Joe Wilson said so. (Not to be confused with the other Joe Wilson, who said Obama lied and got it trouble for it…go figure…)

    That, and run “Republican-lite” Democrats against favorite conservatives, such as the publicly Pro-Life Casey against Santorum.

    Where can I get a job writing political analysis?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  12. Ponnuru is an imbecile.

    Republicans were popular during the first term b/c they were viewed as HAWKS on a popular War on Terror.

    They were unpopular for the same reason. His line of thinking is beyond stupid and typical of Cocktail Country Republicans from the Ivy.

    Don’t even know him but would bet Ivy.

    ODB (0f13a8)

  13. Ding ding — Princeton, let me taste that victory cigar.

    ODB (0f13a8)

  14. “Republicans had nothing to say about wage stagnation then and are saying nothing about it now.”

    Karl – These so-called stagnating wages, how stagnating do they look when you factor in the increasing cost of employer provided benefits?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  15. There are those who disagree (and not just me, here’s one) with your take regarding the size and influence of so-called independent voters. And even if you are right, what is to be gained by leaving the middle to the Democrats?

    Being among the group who thinks the middle do count, my diagnosis for what cost the GOP is pretty simple: things weren’t going so good and the GOP (as personified by the not-so-great communicator, Bush II) did a lousy job of convincing voters of any combination of (a) things weren’t as bad as it seemed, (b) if it was bad, it wasn’t the GOP’s fault (example: how did the GOP let the Democrats paint them as being responsible for the financial crash?), (c) even if things weren’t so good and it was the GOP’s fault, things would be a whole lot worse if the voters turned government over to the Democrats.

    Time after time, Bush failed to make his case and let the Democrats frame the debate. Time after time, he backed off justifiable positions because some liberal editorial board got all huffy. Time after time, he let himself be backed into supporting some ridiculous expansion of government (a blank check in the aftermath of Katrina, prescription drug coverage, way too much spending as part of NCLB). And time after time, he took some really stupid positions (like nominating Miers) and said some really stupid things (‘heck of a job, brownie’).

    And the GOP gains in 2010 were not because the country rejected Democratic policy positions… at least not explicitly. The GOP gained for the same reason the Democrats won in 2008. Things weren’t going so good and the Democrats did a lousy job of making the case why they shouldn’t be blamed (in a way, it is irrelevant as to whether they should be blamed, what matters is whether a party can convince the mushy middle that the other side is worse).

    I know you’re a policy wonk. But by focusing solely on policy and not enough on how to convince people that you’re pushing worthwhile policies, you’re never going to get the chance to implement those policies. Think of it this way: given the relative ignorance of most of the voting public, why would you expect them to figure things out without your having to explain it to them…. L O U D and S L O W?

    steve (254463)

  16. Where the hell was a conservative supposed to go in 2008? The GOP lost the Senate because it could not or would not field proper candidates in Delaware or Nevada and opened itself up to internecine battles.

    In California, in a Dem district, any and all GOP votes were a waste. Zero chance of effect. That had not a thing in the world to do with any policy or ideology issues within the GOP.

    Ed from SFV (494f27)

  17. daleyrocks,

    That occurred to me, but I was already over 1000 words, y’know? Plus, I have sorta written about it as it would relate here.

    Karl (f07e38)

  18. steve (15),

    I’m a big fan of Jay Cost (I ‘ve bought him a drink in fact). But here’s what he says:

    Most of the soft partisans and independents mentioned under the second point usually back one side or the other, but a good portion of them are true swing voters. And they tend to be numerous enough to constitute a decisive portion of the electorate. In other words, the side that wins these people wins the election.

    That’s entirely consistent with what I wrote. Even 7-10% of the electorate can be decisive.

    As for Jay’s graph, he defines swing voters as those who have switched their party support from the previous election to the current one. That’s not necessarily the same group as independents, although there’s undoubtedly overlap.

    I agree with some — but not all — of your assessment of Bush (e.g., Bush was always for NCLB as part of “compassionate conservatism”), but most of that assessment has little to do with either policy or ideology (which tends to reinforce my point). Same goes for your assesment of 2010, which is largely consistent with mine.

    I also agree that the GOP ought to focus more on framing/marketing policy… though I would think Ponnuru would say you need to develop policy before you can frame/market it.

    Karl (f07e38)

  19. steve (15),

    Additional note on Cost’s graph: Perhaps I should email him on the methodology, but I suspect that it’s based on self-reporting, e.g., asking voters in 2008 who they voted for in the prior election, and so on. That’s always tricky (people’s memories are convenient), which is why you get different estimates.

    Karl (f07e38)

  20. Karl – I understand the GOP didn’t do squat about it, but my focus was more on the stagnating wages meme.

    From an employer perspective, a lot of management consider wages and the cost of benefits to be a package. The frequently double digit annual increases in health insurance premiums earlier in the decade mean overall employee compensation was not stagnating even as many employers were asking employees to pick up larger portions of the tab for such benefits to offset the cost increases.

    My gripe is with Ramesh’s narrative, not your analysis. I’ve got his compensation package right here!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  21. 19.steve (15),

    Additional note on Cost’s graph (I should be consolidating these):

    Assuming for the sake of argument that the numbers are as high Cost’s, the question remains whether the swing is the result of: (a) ideology; (b) nuanced policy positions Ponnuru could love; (c) the economy; (d) war issues; and (e) other factors. I would still argue (c), (d), and (e) predominate over (b) and likely (a) as well.

    Karl (f07e38)

  22. daleyrocks,

    I get your point, But I’m not taking Ponnuru as really arguing wage stagnation was the issue here (albeit an important one), but the GOP’s lack of focus on policy in general.

    Karl (f07e38)

  23. steve (15),

    Yet another clarification. I was writing about indies (such as they are) specifically because Ponnuru wrote about them. Leaners overwhelmingly vote their party inclination, but that still leaves 7-10% of leaners who do cross party lines, depending on the political environment. E.g., in 2008, a lot of Bush voters voted for Obama. But again, that’s likely indicative of weak GOPers watching their 401(k) disappear than some broader judgment about either ideology or Obama’s policy positions. Note that the number of swing voters seems to spike when the economy stinks. Also, I would suggest abandonment of the Dems during the 70s after the New Left started taking control of the party is a factor — and that is perhaps both ideological and policy-based, though certainly the former.

    Karl (f07e38)

  24. “I get your point”

    Karl – Thanks, I just think it’s another of the type of dishonest economic argument in which the left specializes.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  25. And the solution, ended up being QE 2 and 3, which devalued wages further,

    narciso (ef1619)

  26. daleyrocks,

    Yes, though I doubt Ponnuru was being dishonest in discussing wage stagnation; he’s ostensibly looking at it from the standpoint of the voter whose wages are stagnating. I would bet he would respond to the argument about total compensation by noting that the GOP also hasn’t been big on developing and selling an alternative health insurance reform approach (which is why I was thinking of linking my prior post on that specific topic).

    Karl (f07e38)

  27. Where the hell was a conservative supposed to go in 2008?

    We’ve been on this train since Nixon beat Goldwater.

    I guess Reagan’s coattails were long enough for the GOP to survive the 1992 and 1996 attempts to break the GOP. Long term, is my opinion that it’s unfortunate this didn’t happen.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  28. Whether the GOP survives is not the end of the world. There’s no more money to pay off all the factions on the left and the Democrats are doomed.

    Well, soon anyway.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  29. “I would bet he would respond to the argument about total compensation by noting that the GOP also hasn’t been big on developing and selling an alternative health insurance reform approach”

    Karl – Right, which is why we were all waiting with bated breath for ObamaCare to bend the health care cost curve down. Double Heh!!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  30. Republicans will do better once they stop the practice of lining their pockets/feathering their nests as blatantly and unethically as the Democrats have always done and when they get serious about spending cuts.

    Why be enthused when it’s a choice of the lesser of two evils in so many respects?

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  31. WASHINGTON — A new wave of pessimism colored super committee talks on Tuesday as Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) blasted anti-tax crusader Grover Norquist for meddling with the panel’s progress and suggested that the American public “impeach” him.

    I agree. Harry Reid should be impeached.

    #OccupyAnthonyWeinersShorts (d1c681)

  32. Time after time, Bush failed to make his case…

    Not so much that he failed, but his Noblesse Oblige got in the way of his Common Sense, and he never even made the attempt.

    Conservatives got Damn Frustrated attempting to defend a President who couldn’t be bothered to defend himself; and so, eventually, they stopped trying, and stopped voting.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  33. Comment by Ed from SFV — 11/16/2011 @ 3:02 pm

    If the GOP hadn’t started making the perfect the enemy of the good, and had actually supported McDonnel and Angle, both in word and deed, the results might have been different.
    Honestly, would either of those two been worse than who went to DC in their stead?
    And, don’t even get me started on Lisa M.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  34. Gee guys, isn’t a bit early for the pre-mortem?

    Kevin M (4eb9c8)

  35. Pardon an old man asking, but just when did Nixon defeat Goldwater?

    And, would Ramesh please ask the 14+MM UE what they think of “wage stagnation” under Bush – they might like to have those jobs back.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  36. Kevin, this is GOP politics, it’s never too early for the long-knives to come out.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  37. Well Rove savaged Christine, more than was considered salutory, yet he supported Angle, in the end, the Democrats scorched both, and the dauphin
    of the Tea Party, Rubio sees fit to team up with
    the ‘Bearded Marxist’

    narciso (ef1619)

  38. Comment by narciso — 11/16/2011 @ 4:34 pm

    That should be a screenplay by Gucchione in the fine tradition of his “Caligula”.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  39. The accomodationist, ultimately detentist current of the Rockefeller did have dominance for a time
    till Watergate derailed it, the New Right represented by Reagan, was able to ascend out of the ashes, of the former.

    narciso (ef1619)

  40. AD at #33

    I agree. I think Bush the man did a noble thing in trying to stay above the name-calling, but Bush the President I think had a responsibility to fiercely point out where his critics were wrong. Then again, I’ve heard Rove say it was a mistake not to challenege the “Bush lied” crowd, as if it was a Rove strategy.

    Steve at #15

    Oh yes, I was too busy thinking about the propaganda war over the war to remember getting blamed for the democrat financial crisis. Clarity well communicated on that one thing would have been all that was necessary for a republican sweep.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  41. “Pardon an old man asking, but just when did Nixon defeat Goldwater?”

    You’re right. He beat Rockefeller and lost to LBJ and the party nominated Nixon the next cycle.

    I still consider Goldwater and Nixon to represent the opposite factions of the GOP.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  42. O/T…BTW, the House passed HR-822, the CCW Reciprocity Act, by a vote of 272 to 154.
    Though five GOP members abstained (one being Michelle Bachmann who is probably campaigning in IA), no GOP member voted Nay.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  43. Smock Puppet, Victim of Gender Discrimination. Yes, I am.,

    You describe yourself as an independent who votes libertarian, but you also say you voted for Clinton because he was more middle-of-the-road than Bush 41. My understanding is that most swing voters favor moderate candidates, while libertarians favor candidate who believe in small government (because it’s less likely to interfere with their liberties). These voters seem ideologically different to me. How is it libertarian to vote for the most moderate candidate simply because he’s middle-of-the-road?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  44. AD-RtR/OS!

    Honestly, would either of those two been worse than who went to DC in their stead?

    Simple answers too easy questions, the voters seemed to think they would, so yes. Sharon Angle? and ‘not a witch’? seriously?

    Spartacvs (1c11b2)

  45. You have a wonderful temperament, AD.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  46. I still consider Goldwater and Nixon to represent the opposite factions of the GOP.

    Particularly by ’68, when Nixon was a partner in a significant NYC law practice.
    Some would say that it took Nixon’s disgrace, and Ford’s loss to Carter, to flush the East-Coast, Country-Club GOP out of the citadels of power in the Party, and bring to the fore the Western, Main-Street, faction typified by Barry and Ronnie.
    It is a battle that is on-going still, in one form or another.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  47. What does Anderson The teabgagging Cooperhead think?

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  48. Comment by DRJ — 11/16/2011 @ 4:58 pm

    I’m practicing for Sainthood, though some trolls can be trying.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  49. So which one is your champion Romney?

    East-Coast, Country-Club or Western, Main-Street? A hybrid of both with chameleon like qualities? Inquiring minds would like to know.

    Not sure which one best fits Newt either, come to think of it. Professional grifter suits him better and he’s damn good at it. Not a rank amateur like the GOP flavor of the last Presidential election season, Palin.

    Spartacvs (1c11b2)

  50. Spurty is all hot and bothered, like Michael Moore at an all-you-can-eat buffet.

    JD (318f81)

  51. Romney is the East Coast, country club candidate.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  52. There you have it. The pro Obama argument is to make stupid insults about Republicans.

    I could rattle off plenty of ideological problems I have with Newt, and so many more about Romney, but Sparty can’t really do this. So just dumb crap like ‘he’s in a country club’ and ‘he’s a good grifter’.

    That’s what an absolute failure Obama has been. That’s why I’ll happily replace Obama with an ideological nightmare that at least has a brain.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  53. Romney is the East Coast, country club candidate.

    Comment by DRJ — 11/16/2011 @ 5:15 pm

    Yes.

    But why does Spartacus care about something like that? It’s just sheer deflection.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  54. When did Romney become our champion?

    JD (318f81)

  55. So, JD, you admit to being a Country-Clubber?

    “Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the Country Club Party?”

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  56. A golf club, yes. A country club, no. Country Club Party, not sure what that is. Maybe is what we call Barcky’s golf fix these days?

    JD (318f81)

  57. Karl

    I think the shock of 4 dollar a gallon gas had more to do than anything – crafted to be blamed on the highly unpopular overly expensive wars – that was the turning point

    Also, the Republicans were only in power about 5 years with massive minority opposition.

    Me, I blame democrats

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  58. Awkward, it as if facts are a luxury;

    http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/16/bachmann-took-campaign-money-from-freddie-while-she-was-fighting-them/#ixzz1dvENzpiD

    Brent Sweat crude is up to 102, so here we go again.

    narciso (ef1619)

  59. Romney is the East Coast, country club candidate.

    Comment by DRJ

    Yes.

    Comment by Dustin

    Class envy at work here? Who cares, at least Romney pays his own way. Who is picking up the tab for the Perry’s lavish lifestyle?

    A clue… it ain’t Rick Perry.

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  60. When did Romney become our champion?

    Comment by JD — 11/16/2011 @ 5:20 pm

    Since Spartacus explained he was. Spartacus can read into the motivations of everyone he disagrees with with amazing insight. It helps that Media Matters gives him a script.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  61. Independent voters are largely ignorant of the issues. Hugh Hewitt had a caller back in 2006 or so who said she voted “for the person”, not as a partisan. Hugh asked her if she would answer a couple of questions about candidates. She said “OK” and he asked her who the vice president was. She was probably the only person in America who didn’t know who Cheney was.

    Mike K (9ebddd)

  62. Class envy at work here?

    Try reading my comments again, more slowly. I said it wasn’t relevant.

    Also, you’re the one making the envy argument as far as I can tell. Very Clintonian. ‘Why is he making this scurrilous envy attack (he isn’t making) when He’s living a lavish lifestyle he didn’t earn!!!!!!!!’

    BTW, Perry is running a very large organization. He isn’t compensated an unusual amount for it. And we keep rehiring him.

    You know… reelections? For… doing a good job? You know? Performance in office? Policies? Ideology? Those are the things I care most about.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  63. This is the detail I was referring to:

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/45312307

    narciso (ef1619)

  64. Yo momma is a rank amateur.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  65. Yo momma is a rank amateur.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  66. One thing that is tearing the party apart is the bad faith and projection of bad faith I see by the Romney faction, who are so much more the cult of personality for brilliant genius Romney than any caricature of Palin’s fans.

    Even the slightest hint of criticism, and they leap into the hyper sensitive insults.

    Romney’s the dude with the illegal aliens cleaning up multiple family mansions after he was asked to stop the crime from occurring. If I wanted to make a class envy argument, it would be very easy to make.

    Yes, Mitt is a country club east coast liberal. That’s just a fact. It’s hilarious that acknowledging this fact while explaining why it’s not relevant is enough to trigger the cult of personality that will go to any length to forgive Romney for his record of failure. His tax and spend policies such as Romneycare have driven his state beyond the point of no return, and already they are getting bailouts. That’s the kind of stuff that bothers me.

    Is it more impressive to rise through the ranks after pulling yourself up by your bootstraps with the GI Bill, because no one ever heard of your father the farmer? Sure. But that’s more of an explanation than a justification. It’s why Perry’s the guy who stood his ground to do the right thing, such as when he cut education spending instead of leaving it off limits because that’s much more politically convenient (this is something Haiku has claimed I am lying about, but ultimately admitted was no lie… just something he doesn’t appreciate). It’s one guess as to why Romney is so weak that he folds to political pressure every single time there is any, such as in Ohio, or on abortion, or on entitlement spending, or to attempt to mimic Perry’s tax leadership.

    Romney’s fanatical fans surely do not represent most of Romney’s supporters. I’m sure they are a very vocal minority of them. But damn I’ve noticed a lot of them, and some of them are absolutely nuts.

    You don’t see me hysterically bashing anyone who raises a legitimate gripe with Perry. Half the time, I’m the one noting the problem. Few of Perry’s supporters are fanatics about it. We just like his record, value executive experience, and are conservative. The guy isn’t perfect, and we don’t want an ubermensch Harvard Law ‘Change starts with us’ actor like Obama or Romney to save us from ourselves.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  67. Good call Dustin.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  68. Thin-skinned, much? I just asked who is paying for the Perry’s lavish lifestyle. Can you answer that?

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  69. JD,

    We call them country clubs here, not golf clubs. I’m not sure why because golf is the main part of most clubs. However, there are a few country clubs that have swimming, dining, and tennis but no golf.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  70. He makes $150K a year as governor. Who pays for the Perry family’s travel around the world? His stays at high-priced hotels and resorts? His ski vacations?

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  71. Well lets not start that again, Perry is closer to the Nixon model than Reagan, Romney is an unusual
    standard bearer for the WASP establishment, than so is Huntsman,

    narciso (ef1619)

  72. Romney makes a lot but that is ok because he makes the girls swoon.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  73. “such as when he cut education spending instead of leaving it off limits because that’s much more politically convenient”

    Perry cut funding for education because he was forced to.

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  74. Boot straps, my ass.

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  75. Thin-skinned, much? I just asked who is paying for the Perry’s lavish lifestyle. Can you answer that?

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 11/16/2011 @ 6:08 pm

    I can’t find a way to distinguish your rant from Spartacuses, and my answer is the same. This is irrelevant.

    Yes, Presidents and Governors fly around, have car services, live in nice homes with security details. Boo hoo.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  76. Boot straps, my ass.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 11/16/2011 @ 6:15 pm

    Shameful slur of those who served in the military. I noted specifically I was referring to someone who paid for his education with the GI Bill and yet is a very successful man who has run a large government very well.

    You say that’s not boot straps? Why?

    Perry cut funding for education because he was forced to.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 11/16/2011 @ 6:14 pm

    No, he wasn’t. If every governor with a deficit was forced to cut that specific agency, Romney wouldn’t have increased education spending while Perry froze it, then cut spending in this agency against many cries that he raid savings, increase taxes, or simply cut other agencies and leave education alone as a sacred cow. Perry’s admin was even sued by NEA affiliates.

    No, cutting education spending takes a spine. Just like reforming Social Security and repealing entitlements like federal Romneycare.

    You said I was being dishonest, and yet your defense was that what I said happened actually did happen, but Perry was ‘forced’ to do something that he had many options not to do. In other words, you projected your dishonesty onto me.

    You are basically just arguing against giving credit for conservatism itself. Like, if Perry balances the budget while Romney bankrupts MA with Romneycare, Perry was ‘forced’ and Romney is forgiven.

    In reality, making a balanced budget amendment work requires hard choices. Perry walked the walk in many roles as a fiscal conservative. He’s been making across the board budget cuts in a responsible manner for a very long time.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  77. btw, I think Perry pays for his lifestyle. Haiku tells me that if a man works for a living, his salary and benefits don’t belong to him?

    What kind of stupid crap is that?

    Is he demanding Texas pay her governors less? What business is it of some California liberal how Texas handles such affairs?

    Dustin (cb3719)

  78. Col,

    I was wondering where you got the information on Perry’s lavish lifestyle?

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  79. Who pays for the lavish lifestyle, Dustin? I’ll tell you who does. His handlers, donors and others who are trying to buy influence, that’s who pays for it all. Some of these donors have been appointed to state commissions or given million-dollar state of Texas grants to businesses said donors are involved in.

    $150K a year doesn’t go that far these days.

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  80. Uk communist rag likens securing UN cllimate change deal to Fighting Hitler in WWII.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  81. That’s old school, Time had a retouched Iwo Jima cover with a tree instead of a flag, yes they are insane.

    narciso (ef1619)

  82. H/T weasel zippers.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  83. and the former Burmese government was left-wing.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  84. I’ll tell you who does. His handlers, donors and others who are trying to buy influence,

    Oh.

    I thought you were talking about his compensation as governor.

    If you’re saying Perry is being bribed, then you should prove that. That’s totally unacceptable, and I won’t support a politician who has been bribed.

    $150K a year doesn’t go that far these days.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 11/16/2011 @ 6:32 pm

    Um, yeah it does. In Austin you can live like a king on that salary. Seriously. You can live like a king.

    You do know that Romney filled his administration with friends, right? And frankly, that was a good decision. Why not put your political supporters that you know are smart and like minded in good positions? Many of these guys were his co-execs from Bain. Smart guys. Not corruption. Yeah, they made money together, but that’s OK.

    I do object to Romney asking his political donors to give money to his son’s business venture. That seems very sleazy to me. I don’t see anything like that from Perry.

    What kind of corruption are you talking about, Haiku? He took in a few hundred thousand for the Republican Governors Association from Merck, but for 25 or so governors, this wasn’t much money, and not unusual, and as far as I know, Perry didn’t actually live a lavish lifestyle off that money.

    You are making serious charges. If can prove that Perry is taking bribes to live a lavish lifestyle, I will have to support a different candidate, because that would show a lack of character.

    Why didn’t you provide any links to these explosive charges, Haiku?

    I hesitate to take your word for it because you noted your links were credible in the past after I noted they were to truthers, birthers, and bilderbergers. I don’t think you’re a kook truther, so I have to conclude you just say things are credible if they bash Rick Perry.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  85. Col

    Where did you find that information?

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  86. Col,
    I was wondering where you got the information on Perry’s lavish lifestyle?

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 11/16/2011 @ 6:29 pm

    — Maybe he got it from the same place where you found the “disgusting” Herman-Cain-calls-fellow-Republicans-‘klansmen’ ad.

    Although, what the Colonel was doing with his head up your rectum is something I wish to never learn.

    Icy (aba449)

  87. Col,

    where again, did you find that information?

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  88. He may have gotten it from CNN’s Caffertyfile published September 12, 2011.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  89. I like being invisible to EPWJ.

    Perhaps I live in Iran, and there are two million of me . . .

    And we, all of us, are preparing to celebrate Chanukah.

    [They don’t allow us a menorah, so we have to improvise by imagining that each light at the nuclear “testing facility” represents a day of the celebration.]

    Icy (aba449)

  90. – Maybe he got it from the same place where you found the “disgusting” Herman-Cain-calls-fellow-Republicans-’klansmen’ ad.

    Eric, did you say that?

    Come on, dude. Cain is not my first pick, but that poor guy has been subject to an endless amount of unsubstantiated crap lately.

    I’m sure I know where you’re coming from to say that, but it’s unfair.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  91. DRJ, that does sound like it to me.

    But CNN says the taxpayers are paying Perry’s compensation.

    That’s not bribery. Taxpayers pay the salary of their governors. That’s pretty normal.

    CNN also whines

    he governor and his family have been living in the five-bedroom, seven-bath mansion since 2007 while the governor’s mansion undergoes repair. Four years? What kind of repairs are those?

    The Texas Governor’s mansion is being rebuilt from when it was burned down during the state democratic convention (the connection is not proven, but my guess is some drugged up extremist liberals from the convention torched the mansion in rage).

    Is this really Haiku’s source? He’s complaining that Perry got some boots for Christmas? So what?

    I guess I’ll never know, but this source is egregiously unfair, and also quite unserious.

    Apparently CNN handpicked this comment to broadcast:

    As someone who has followed pistol packing Perry throughout his career, I can tell you quite honestly that this buffoon is a card carrying, full-blown fraudster. He actually makes ‘W’ look good, well, almost. And remember, the governor of Texas has much less power and authority than most governors. Having lived here for 15 years and originally from California, I would venture the collective IQ of this state is only slightly above a carrot.

    Is that what you think of Texans, Haiku?

    Dustin (cb3719)

  92. Oh, he said it all right, Dustin.

    And I called him on it, and ever since then he has ignored me.

    Sort of a lose-win situation. 😉

    Icy (aba449)

  93. On a July morning in 2008, Gov. Rick Perry of Texas and several aides boarded a plane for Washington to lobby on ethanol use, an issue important to corn growers and livestock owners in his state. . . .

    While executives from the livestock industry did not attend Mr. Perry’s private meeting at the E.P.A., the governor would not have made it there without them — literally. The Hawker 800XP plane that Mr. Perry and his team flew from Austin to Washington and back was provided by Lonnie Pilgrim, one of the world’s largest chicken producers and a leading critic of the ethanol mandate. . . .

    The poultry magnate also flew the governor to Washington in June to take part in a news conference on the issue.

    The two trips, each valued at $9,179, were among more than 200 flights worth a total of $1.3 million that Mr. Perry has accepted — free — from corporate executives and wealthy donors during 11 years as governor, according to an analysis of Texas Ethics Commission records by The New York Times.

    His flack’s excuse (“it was part of an effort to save tax dollars”) would be more credible had Perry not charged the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars for a mansion rental, run up his travel bill and then sealed the travel records.

    But that’s all a drop in the bucket compared to his cozy relationship with donors who got plum appointments, grants and sweetheart deals after ponying up big money for Perry’s campaigns. Mike Toomey, his former chief of staff, then lobbyist (helping to push through the HPV mandatory vaccination program for his client Merck and now his superPAC chief) certainly fits the mold.

    A GOP consultant taking no part in this year’s race told me Perry risks looking like a hypocrite. “Rick Perry’s governor’s office had a Texas-sized revolving door. His top staff all became lobbyists, and the lobbyists all became top staff. So I’m not sure cronyism is really an issue he should be bringing up.” He pointed me to a blatant example of Perry’s willingness to compromise conservative principles: The Trans Texas Corridor (TTC) project.”

    http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oGdbQpfcROniEA.9lXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1a2YwNDRxBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA1JDRjAxOF8yNDI-/SIG=14agcne2c/EXP=1321528745/**http%3a//www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/post/perry-perfected-influence-peddling/2011/11/04/gIQAFh3EqM_blog.html

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  94. #33 It may have rolled a long way from CT to TX but the Bush apples landed right next to the tree. It is also why Jeb is not something I would be happy about. “American Royalty” are only slightly less pernicious then the Euro kind.

    ODB (0f13a8)

  95. Dustin

    Cain blamed Perry then romney at the same time was crying he was being lynched and then ran some radio ads saying he was being lynched while blaming republicans

    I just pointed it out

    This is the main reason why he is plummeting in the polls – we dont like being called klansmen – in so many words

    Blame Cain, not me

    And you need to call Hannity, and several people on the fice who repeated the klan thing

    Cains being kicked to the curb for being a ridiculous exhibit of how not to handle a campaign

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  96. No he thinks Texans like to masturbate.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  97. “Look what we do in Texas.”

    – Rick Perry

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  98. That comes perilously close to the delusional politburo nonsense that wannabe Marxist Matt Taibbi came up with,

    narciso (ef1619)

  99. Cain blamed Perry then romney at the same time was crying he was being lynched and then ran some radio ads saying he was being lynched while blaming republicans

    There’s a way to say it that doesn’t convey the impression you’re piling on the unsubstantiated stuff.

    I am greatly annoyed with how Cain initially handled the issue, but why not leave it specifically at that?

    This is the main reason why he is plummeting in the polls – we dont like being called klansmen –

    … sigh

    double sigh, as I realize this is very similar to the screw up Perry made, calling people heartless.

    But folks will focus on the specific detail you’re claiming there, realizing that is some kind of metaphor, and call it unfair. Because that is an unfair way to describe Cain’s points.

    I also think when the guy is subject to a litany of unsubstantiated crap, we have to be very careful to keep criticisms fact based.

    I know Romney’s fans hate the way I view Romney, but I do at least attempt to keep my views rooted in fact. I sometimes draw conclusions that are my opinion, but they are rooted in something, and if asked, I’ll readily explain how I worked that out.

    It still leads to a lot of fighting, because some of Romney’s fans are literally in love with Mitt Romney, but they lose the fights, so no big deal.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  100. Dustin,

    Oh he was quite clear in his insinuation, then when it was pointed out to him he then said oh and the democrat machine

    But as Allah at hotair pointed out – he’s back to claiming being lynched and saying that perry did it so – it still goes on

    black people claiming lynching playing the overused racecard is sooo Bama

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  101. Haiku, your link is to hysterical Romney shill Jennifer Rubin.

    Do you have an answer to my point about Romney’s political donors being asked to contribute to Romney’s boy’s business? The same boy who got Romney’s illegal immigrant lawn crew to care for his mansion (or was that a different boy?)?

    Politicians get donations. They get gifts. Over ten years + as governor, all you have are plane rides to give speeches?

    His flack’s excuse (“it was part of an effort to save tax dollars”) would be more credible had Perry not charged the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars for a mansion rental

    This is basically shrieking from Romney’s mouthpiece, who has refused to note which of her talking points come directly from Romney’s campaign.

    The Governor of Texas is provided with a residence in the Capital area. It’s not like Perry is doing something wrong for being the latest governor. It’s not his fault liberals burned down the mansion. Why is Rubin holding that against him in a completely irrelevant and unserious manner?

    Dustin (cb3719)

  102. One doesn’t get the full flavor of what you mean
    Dustin, until you go here:

    http://race42012.com/

    narciso (ef1619)

  103. I’m soo tired and fed up with people playing the race card….

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  104. Cain blamed Perry then romney at the same time was crying he was being lynched and then ran some radio ads saying he was being lynched while blaming republicans

    — Okay, Bubba. Please provide a link to said “radio ads”.

    Don’t worry. You can address your reply to Dustin; I will just look over his shoulder.

    Icy (aba449)

  105. I’m sure Ramos and Campean felt the same way, when
    they discovered their target was a protected DEA informant.

    narciso (ef1619)

  106. Dustin vs Haiku. Round 18!!!

    Icy (aba449)

  107. WAPO irony alert.

    I oppose abortion but with exceptions.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  108. I’m soo tired and fed up with people playing the race card….

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 11/16/2011 @ 7:36 pm

    I understand, Eric.

    Just understand, even from someone who is biased in Perry’s favor, the way you conveyed that point is not fair. I realize you have a basis, but you took it too far.

    I’m not trying to make a federal case or judge you for it, I just think there’s a way to say it that works.

    Cite specifically how Cain played the race card, which I think he did on two occasions, and note you think that was wrong.

    If anything, making the case to the extent you have is a great help to Cain, as it’s pretty easily shown he didn’t call me a klansman, etc.

    I personally think Cain was overwhelmed and goofed, and even though I don’t feel huge sympathy for him (he actively engaged in an unfounded MSM BS story when it was about his opponent) I do understand why he’d react the way he did.

    Just perhaps another example of how Cain is not ready for this. I think he would make a fine Senator.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  109. Dustin vs Haiku. Round 18!!!

    Comment by Icy — 11/16/2011 @ 7:40 pm

    LOL

    Yeah, my bad. This is totally pointless. I like Perry, he likes Romney. I have my reasons, he has his.

    To be honest, usually I ignore him. He’s that prolific that if I pay response one percent of the time, it’s a lot of fighting.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  110. You may not like what Rubin has to say, Dustin, but she’s a respected journalist. And those are facts she’s highlighted. Perry has played fast and loose with the public trust.

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  111. Icy – he won’t, because he can’t. There ismno link on the plnet that can support the fraudulent sleazy claim he is making. Just like when he accused Cain of rape. Or Rubio of grand theft. He should stick to counting jooooooooos

    JD (318f81)

  112. I used to respect her.

    JD (318f81)

  113. Dustin

    I dont care about Rick Winning, i just care about a open fraud like Cain calling me a klansmen to sell books and hope to get a spot on Fox and earn some money

    He has no organization, he is saving all those campaign donations and can use them for travel. lodging, cars, buses, hotels, office spaces, even apartments for as long as people are dumb enough to keep donating to him

    All you need to do is google Cain blames and get all the info you need

    Cains having himself a good time until recently

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  114. He never called you a klansman. Period. End of story. It is a lie.

    JD (318f81)

  115. Nov 2 Cain runs Cain superpack ad number 3 blaming the media about lynching him

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/11/04/cain_web_ad_high_tech_lynching.html

    At the same time he and his campaign manager were saying “RickPerry”

    No need to connect a lot of dots there

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  116. BTW, Caid did play the race card. Was he justified? Maybe. YMMV.

    What he DID NOT DO was ‘insinuate’ that any of his fellow Republicans have behaved like klansmen. And if EPWJ would like to produce some EVIDENCE to the contrary, he is welcome to do so.

    Icy (aba449)

  117. And those are facts she’s highlighted.

    I already answered then point by point, though.

    You simply ignored me and told me you’re right because the Romney shill is a respected journalist?

    That’s the argument you’re offering?

    No can do. I do not have a problem with taxpayers of a state providing a residence in the capital of their state to their governor. That’s one of the things this kook is screaming about, and her argumentation is that this shows that the plane rides were … not saving taxpayers money.

    It’s irrational in many respects.

    I suppose Mitt Romney didn’t need the people of MA to provide him with a governors residence (I am not saying he didn’t use one… i do not know or care) but it’s not some kind of bad mark on a governor to use the state’s governor’s residence. It’s not out of line for someone to take several plane rides to give speeches.

    This is the “lavish lifestyle” you suggested was some kind of deep corruption, and I don’t think you’ve backed that up very well.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  118. No he wasn’t.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  119. No need to connect a lot of dots there
    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 11/16/2011 @ 7:56 pm

    — And that’s a good thing, too, since you appear to have busted all of your crayons.

    Icy (aba449)

  120. Saying the words Rick Perry in interviews and having this in his ad – need I say more

    “This is a circus. It is a national disgrace. It is a high tech lynching for uppity blacks who in any way deign to think for themselves . It is a message that unless you kowtow to an old order you will be lynched, destroyed caricatured rather than hung from a tree.”

    first of all, thomas insulted America for saying that and I wondered why even though he was being falsely accused – had the need to play the race card and then Cain to repeat it, when Cain’s firm paid out good money to more than one complaint

    Rope? Really?

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  121. referring to Cain.

    So let me get this straight these obots protest Wall Street even though they gave to these guys.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  122. to their*

    OMG.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  123. On a July morning in 2008, Gov. Rick Perry of Texas and several aides boarded a plane for Washington to lobby on ethanol use, an issue important to corn growers and livestock owners in his state. . . .

    Which is kind of his job, you know.

    While executives from the livestock industry did not attend Mr. Perry’s private meeting at the E.P.A., the governor would not have made it there without them — literally.

    Exactly. So what is your problem? Who should pay for him to go up to Washington to try to get the federal boot off his constituents’ necks? Sure, it would have been reasonable to bill the TX taxpayers for it, but isn’t it right and proper that the people whose livelihood he was defending should pay for it themselves and not burden the rest of the taxpayers? I’m really not seeing the objection here.

    The poultry magnate also flew the governor to Washington in June to take part in a news conference on the issue.

    Again, not seeing the problem. He wanted the governor to be there, so he got him there. Just because Perry could have spent taxpayer money and justified it, doesn’t mean he should have.

    The two trips, each valued at $9,179, were among more than 200 flights worth a total of $1.3 million that Mr. Perry has accepted — free — from corporate executives and wealthy donors during 11 years as governor,

    Who the hell cares how much they were worth? Was he traveling for his own benefit? No. The people for whose benefit he traveled paid for it, as they should. And if these two trips are typical of the 200 (and if they’re not why cite them in the first place?) then we can assume the others were also beyond reasonable question. Does their sheer number somehow turn them into a negative?!

    His flack’s excuse (“it was part of an effort to save tax dollars”)

    Doesn’t sound like an “excuse” to me, it sounds like the literal and obvious truth.

    would be more credible had Perry not charged the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars for a mansion rental, run up his travel bill and then sealed the travel records.

    Huh? What has one thing got to do with the other? The state has to put him up somewhere appropriate, and that costs money; does whoever wrote this have any practical suggestions for shaving that bill? Where do they want him to stay? Motel 6? And I assume this “travel bill” is separate from the travel paid for by other people; this is presumably travel paid for by the state, so what has it got to do with the credibility or otherwise of his explanation for the privately-paid travel? On the contrary, the more he spends on state-paid travel, the more desirable it is to have someone else pay whenever possible!

    his cozy relationship with donors who got plum appointments, grants and sweetheart deals after ponying up big money for Perry’s campaigns. Mike Toomey, his former chief of staff, then lobbyist (helping to push through the HPV mandatory vaccination program for his client Merck and now his superPAC chief) certainly fits the mold.

    Huh? Isn’t that exactly backward? Are Perry and/or Toomey supposed to be time travelers?

    Really, you’re scraping the bottom of the barrel here. If this is what you’ve “got” on Perry, you’ve got nothing. I came out of reading that thinking better of him than when I went in.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  124. They borrowed the flying Delorian back in 2015, and went back to 1985, and yes the absurdity of the OWS
    would be funny if it wasn’t so dangerous.

    narciso (ef1619)

  125. How do you jump from “I’m being lynched” to “you’re a klansman”? What have the two words got to do with each other? If you say “my windows were broken” are you accusing the culprits of being Nazis?!

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  126. How do you jump from “I’m being lynched” to “you’re a klansman”?

    It is easy if you have no regard for the truth, honesty, and basic decency.

    JD (318f81)

  127. Nov 2 Cain runs Cain superpack ad number 3 blaming the media about lynching him
    — And here is the response I wrote to you. I challenge you now to respond to the specific points:
    [All post #s refer to the thread “On the Latest Cain Allegations; Some Thoughts”]

    EPWJ bleated: so, instead of trying to refute my incorrect arguments – they engage in personal lame attacks as usual

    – Well then, here is your big chance to step up and be a man: in post #177 you wrote, “Cain just has a disgusting ad accusing Republicans of being essentially klansmen”. 
    I have repeatedly asked you to provide a link to this alleged “ad” but you have not done so. 
    In post #195 you quote some anonymous blogger (the one that tells you what to think, apparently) as saying, “By the way, who exactly is Cain charging with figuratively lynching him? Sure the spot goes after Al Sharpton and Cornell West but Cain is still insisting that the harassment story was leaked by a Perry staffer“. 
    Now it’s time to put on your thinking toque. Allegations about who leaked the story to begin with aside, WHERE is the ad, Eric? elissa was kind enough to clarify (in post #200) that you must be referring to the ad titled “High Tech Lynching” by a super-PAC that supports Herman Cain — which is NOT the same thing as the campaign itself; an ad that exclusively goes after liberal pundits and the mainstream media, and ends with the tagline “Don’t let the LEFT do it again” [emphasis theirs].
    So, to review, that ad, A) was neither made nor approved by Herman Cain, B) does not mention, refer to, or implicate ANY Republicans as being part of a high-tech lynching, C) nor does it accuse any Republicans of “being essentially klansmen[sic]“, and if you think that’s the same issue as letter B then you have even more learning to catch up on, and D) is not “disgusting” in any way. 
    Okay, so now that I have refuted your incorrect argument it’s your turn. Please either tell me what you found “disgusting” about the CONTENT of that ad; or, alternatively, point me in the direction of the actual ad to which you were referring . . . you know, the one that actually came from the Cain campaign . . . and actually accused Republicans of engaging in a lynching . . . and was actually disgusting.
    GO!
    Comment by Icy — 11/7/2011 @ 6:38 am

    Icy (aba449)

  128. You may not like what Rubin has to say, Dustin, but she’s a respected journalist.

    Really? Who respects her?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  129. Well, Romney respects her a lot, Milhouse.

    Unless I’m mistaken, and I sincerely apologize if I am, she refused to explain which of her talking points were fed to her directly by Romney’s campaign.

    hey, more power to Romney. I just wish he was a democrat offering Obama a primary challenge. A general election between Perry and Romney would represent the two directions the country is trying to select between. Both these guys are more fit for office than Obama.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  130. Also note that the now-infamous “disgusting” ad has jumped media from radio to Internet/television, and was indeed the ad which was NOT produced by Herman Cain. And all of the “disgusting” references are to be inferred, since Eric has now admitted that there is no ‘there’ there.

    Icy (aba449)

  131. Rubin is a staunch defender of Israel, although she seemed ill disposed to the prospective candidate who actually did support Israel, bewildering.

    narciso (ef1619)

  132. Palin, you mean? Bachmann?

    Both are the big Israel supporters, though Perry, ahem, won an award from Israel for his military service.

    Anyway, I don’t think any of those three are elite enough for Rubin. They didn’t get that Harvard Law degree, which is basically proof someone is going to be an excellent president.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  133. BTW, how lovely of Eric — in post #123 of THIS thread — to slam Clarence Thomas for comments he made at his confirmation hearing. An ugly little pattern might be beginning to form. . . .

    Icy (aba449)

  134. I believe in privatizing Social Security it needs to be done before it is too late.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  135. SS is a ponzi scheme as it is.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  136. first of all, thomas insulted America for saying that

    I hesitate to even ask for an explanation of this nonsense.

    JD (318f81)

  137. Apparently, JD, Eric eye-hearts Joe Biden and the other Dems that used Anita Hill’s never-proved, never-verified allegations as ammunition in their war to discredit the boy that wandered off of the plantation.

    Icy (aba449)

  138. first of all, thomas insulted America for saying that

    I think Icy alluded to this earlier.

    What if Thomas was ACTUALLY being screwed over harshly due to his race? What if there is an actual basis to play the race card?

    I think Thomas was treated horribly because some on the left found him to be breaking the deal. I think some expected men like Thomas to show a little gratitude to the democrat party (yeah, I know how absurd this is historically).

    I also think some of these bozos really did assume a black man like Thomas probably treats and sees women a certain way.

    No, Thomas didn’t insult all of America by complaining about this. I firmly believe it’s America whose process was very unfair to Thomas.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  139. Dustin

    thomas wasn’t being screwed over for being black, he was screwed over for being a Republican nominee.

    Bork was just as screwed over as Thomas

    A woman who worked with him claimed he had poor character – I never believed prof Hill, at all, but the rope, tree lynch crap got real thick – in retrospect despite his conservative service on the bench – i cant help but think that playing the race card so heavily when it was completely unnecessary, is the only reason he is there

    And for Cain to be trying the same thing invalidates all the things he has been talking about – working hard – being the master of your own success – oh but when confronted – play the race card – blame everyone but yourself

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  140. i cant help but think that playing the race card so heavily when it was completely unnecessary, is the only reason he is the

    That says a lot about you.

    And you still have not shown where Cain called us klansmen. Or raped anyone.

    JD (318f81)

  141. Bork was just as screwed over as Thomas

    But he wasn’t screwed in the same way.

    Some of these people look at Obama and are amazed he is clean and free of negro dialect. They didn’t give Thomas the freaking dignity of railing against his impact on jurisprudence because, at least largely, they were too busy being base.

    This is not about Cain, but like I said, you can make your complaint about him known so much better by being specific and not using flourishes or whatever you call this.

    I am naive and also a bit over sensitive to racism, so I try to keep my initial impressions in check. Sometimes it’s there and I didn’t know it. Sometimes I’m mad about it and it turns out it was less offensive. It’s one of the bluntest instruments to wield when discussing politics.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  142. Liberals do not really believe in liberalism.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  143. i cant help but think that playing the race card so heavily when it was completely unnecessary, is the only reason he is there

    — Yes, we all know that you can’t help thinking this way.

    Okay, my pet fish, Eric, let’s concentrate real hard, now:
    How (are you concentrating?) could it be both “completely unneccessary” AND “the only reason he is there”. If it is “the only reason he is there” then it sounds to me like it was VERY necessary, which (the last time I checked) is the exact opposite of “completely unnecessary”.

    Oh, and how patronizing of you to say that it is “the only reason he is there”. Ya know, this barely concealed streak of racism you’ve been displaying lately is adding a new layer of ugly to your character.

    Icy (aba449)

  144. And can we stop repeating the lies that Mexico only allows white people into its country when they only allow people in who don’t harm their economy.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  145. The GOP was granted a once per century tsunami in 2010 and managed a SuperCommittee custerfluck.

    2011CR, Debt Ceiling, 2012CR and epic fail.

    GFY GOP.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  146. I will just note that epwj, as is his style, simply slinked away when called out on his asshattery.

    JD (05e5c6)

  147. And for Cain to be [playing the race card] invalidates all the things he has been talking about – working hard – being the master of your own success – oh but when confronted – play the race card – blame everyone but yourself
    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 11/16/2011 @ 9:03 pm

    — It seems, and I know this will come as a shock for his dozens of fans out there, that Eric believes the following to be the official conservative line on racism:
    It does not exist anymore; therefore, anyone that expresses feelings of having been discriminated against on the basis of race — regardless of the specific details of their case — is merely playing on old, outdated fears in order to gain the system.
    And this from the guy that did not hesitate to falsely accuse a black man of raping a white woman.
    Yes indeed, some things never change.

    Icy (384571)

  148. _____________________________________________

    For most of the second term, they exercised more spending restraint than they had done in the first term

    Huh?! I don’t recall the Congress under Republican oversight ever being disciplined in controlling, much less reducing, the budget and various programs. If anything, I’ve heard variations of George W Bush’s “compassionate conservative” way of thinking. IOW, not only an inability to clearly articulate the differences between rightism and leftism, but a suspicion that the foolish stereotypes of left vs right, as promoted or cheered on by liberals, are valid, and an inability to illustrate just how phony and juvenile liberalism and many of its biggest adherents truly are.

    How many people in the public arena ever point out the two-faced, hollow nature of “limousine liberalism”—and most folks on the left, regardless of their income level, are guilty of exactly that. I’m referring to surveys that reveal higher percentages of liberals compared with conservatives are less generous in donating time and money (and even blood), while they’re also more likely to accept racist notions or practices.

    However, there is a selfish, self-centered angle to why a variety of people — regardless of affiliation — fall for liberalism and left-leaning politicians. It’s best summed up by this quote from Benjamin Franklin:

    When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.

    Mark (411533)

  149. Less government caused this economic mess

    /OWS

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  150. Let’s defend our brothers and sisters who defecate on cars.

    /Lefty

    DohBiden (ef98f0)


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