Patterico's Pontifications

11/15/2011

Dominic Tierney to Occupy Movement: More American Flags, Please! (Update: Judge Clears the Way to Clear Out Zucotti Park)

Filed under: General — Aaron Worthing @ 1:32 pm

[Guest post by Aaron Worthing. Follow me by Twitter @AaronWorthing.]

Update: The more I think about it, the more I realize Tierney’s title (“Occupy Wall Street’s Image Problem”) shows how little he understands the problem. With fawning coverage in the MSM, they don’t have an “image” problem. They have a “behavior” problem so severe that the MSM can’t hide it from the rest of us.

Update (II): Via breaking news email, we learn that New York Supreme Court Judge Stallman has decided not to issue a restraining order on the police as they move to push the protesters out of Zucotti park.  (Please note that in New York State, the “Supreme Court” is their lowest court, and their highest court is called the Court of Appeals.)  Pull up a bowl of popcorn as we get to see more “image problems” (meaning, bad behavior) on TV tonight.

Dominic Tierney over at the Atlantic writes about the Occupy movement’s image problem. Thus he explains that:

To succeed, OWS needs to Americanize the movement. Politics in America is like a game of capture the flag. The United States is a highly ideological nation with a clear sense of its history as a narrative arc. And the right and left get to battle over who will write the next chapter in the American story.

Here, the model for OWS to copy is the civil rights movement. Martin Luther King understood how the game is played. Despite the best efforts of racists to paint King and his supporters as un-American, radical, and pro-communist, the civil rights movement successfully presented itself as the next installment in the great American tale. King deliberately reached back to the founding of the nation and asked that the country’s ideals be extended to all Americans: “I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal.’” Today, even conservatives like Glenn Beck embrace King and the civil rights movement.

Meanwhile, the cautionary tale is the anti-Vietnam War movement. By the late 1960s, the Vietnam War was highly unpopular. But incredibly, the anti-war movement was even less popular than the war. The protesters were widely seen as un-American: rioters, desecrators of the flag, and advocates of amnesty, acid, and abortion. The protesters got a “reputation for being elitist, radical, and unpatriotic.”

And to be fair to him, there is some truth to that. He is not the first person to notice that Americans have a long tradition of “conservative revolution,” where people claim that they were not changing things so much as vindicating what America has been about all along. The most noticeable example of this were the Republicans of the 1850’s and 60’s. Where William Lloyd Garrison famously burned a copy of the Constitution, the Republicans argued that they were fulfilling what America was supposed to be about: the fulfillment of the promise of the Declaration of Independence. Even the very name of their party was a reference to Jefferson; in Jefferson’s day it was called the Republican party, and it was only over time that it became the Democratic-Republican party and finally the Democratic party. So it was a way of saying that the Democrats had gone astray from Jeffersonian principles and they were about restoring them.

Which was kind of crap when you think about it. The (Lincoln) Republican party was also the party of a stronger federal government (although that element of their doctrine has been overblown by some) and industrialization while Jefferson wanted America to remain decentralized and agrarian. At most they only arguably were perfecting one Jeffersonian principle, not all of them. But they still cast themselves that way and thought of themselves that way, setting a template for change in American politics that successful movements have followed.

So he is right, to some degree, but Dominic, you know what might really help the image of the Occupy movement?

If they were, you know… a little less rapey.

And they might try pooping on police cars a little less.

I know, I know… baby steps, but here’s the thing… if you wrap yourself in the flag as you do those things, that tends to offend patriots more than if you kept the flag out of it altogether.

More seriously, the deeper problem with his analysis is that these movements didn’t just wrap themselves in the flag to fool the yokels. They were brought forward by people who genuinely believed that they were carrying forward what America was all about. I might say that it was crap for the Republicans of the 1860’s to think of themselves as perfecting Jefferson, but they genuinely seemed to believe it. The same goes for Martin Luther King, Jr.

As Mr. Teirney writes, damningly:

Compare photos of OWS rallies and Tea Party events. From a distance, you can’t always tell that the leftwing protests are in the United States. By contrast, the Tea Party is awash with the stars and stripes.

Overt patriotism can make people on the left feel a little nervous. But when the nation’s symbols have such meaning to so many people, why cede the flag to conservatives?

What Mr. Teirney fails to recognize is that the Tea Party doesn’t just wave the flag but takes it guidance from the principles that this country was founded on—that the American Flag uniquely represents. The occupy movement is not grounded in such principles and are often antithetical to them. And that is why if you suddenly see flags at their rallies it will be an empty gesture at best.

[Posted and authored by Aaron Worthing.]

168 Responses to “Dominic Tierney to Occupy Movement: More American Flags, Please! (Update: Judge Clears the Way to Clear Out Zucotti Park)”

  1. :roll:

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  2. And God forbid there would be any flags displayed on Cinco de Mayo!!!

    Unless . . .

    Occupy the Barrio!!!

    Icy (7bb95e)

  3. The OWS has three goals

    To see to it that Wall Street Obama gets elected for life.

    Overthrow capitalism

    Anarchy and mass defecation.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  4. The only US flags that I have seen at the OWS protests are the ones that they have been desecrating. So, by all means let’s have more US flags at the OWS protests for them to desecrate. Show the world your true colors even more you OWS SCUM.

    peedoffamerican (ee1de0)

  5. I think he is writing about himself when he says flags make lefties nervous.

    Mike K (9ebddd)

  6. The OWS protesters are violent on their own…………and if they opposed Economic Inequality they would throw their trust fund baby under the bus.

    Financial Equality apparently means Michael Moore making money.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  7. Doh

    funny you say that. the other day on twitter i pointed out what a contradiction it was for moore to lead a bunch of socialists. they are always saying they hate the rich fat cats. Well, Moore is rich and fat. I joked that if he really cared about the poor he would eat less at dinner and give them the balance. Redistribute the wealth? They should redistribute his dinner plate.

    And normally i don’t pick on a guy for being fat, but this really kind of highlights how full of crap these socialists are.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  8. Hehe.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  9. In France, in 1789, the Third Estate, only claimed to repersent 95% of the people. But Occupt Wall Street claims to represenmt 99%!

    The otehr day somewone from WQS interrupted or tried to interupt a rather silly “swearing-in” ceremony (I mean it”s silly to do a “swearing in” months later and in New York) that Representative Bob Turner was performing in front of an audience. Bob Turner was elected by something over 50% of the people who voted in the special election September 13th, 2011!

    It’s the people in OWS who are the 1%. Everybody else is the 99%. At least as far as “occupying” a open-to-the-public park and making big nuisances of themselves. There may be more sympathizers with their point of view, or with what people think is their point of view (the economy is unfair? Wall Street doesn’t do anything useful? Income tax rates should be raised on the highest brackets?)

    But what they are actually doing themselves, they are the 1%, and actually not even 1% of 1%.

    These people are sort of leaning toward thinking that because they are (supposedly) the 99%, they are entitled to do anything. It’s quite openly neo-fascist.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  10. Too many typos.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)


  11. Despite the best efforts of racists to paint King and his supporters as un-American, radical, and pro-communist, the civil rights movement successfully presented itself as the next installment in the great American tale.

    For OWS to avoid this sort of painting, though, they’d have to actually NOT be un-American, radical, and pro-communist, methinks.

    MLKjr wasn’t actually un-American, radical, and pro-communist.

    OWS certainly is.

    Smock Puppet, Victim of Gender Discrimination. Yes, I am. (2fb1c2)

  12. The “image problem” OWS faces is that no matter how the MSM tries to prop them up and compare them in spirit to the tea party, the residential neighbors and commuters around the occupy sites all across the country know the truth and are talking. The camps are rife with filthy and destructive anarchists. CBS Philly had a blog post today showing pictures of the Occupy garbage and litter–which included human feces smeared on a tunnel wall adjacent to the occupy site there through which people need to walk.

    elissa (2b393f)

  13. I would love to see the OWS crowd wrap themselves in the Flag, if it is the Flag that they are burning.

    AD-RtR/OS! (9f0426)

  14. ” What Mr. Tierney fails to recognize is that the Tea Party doesn’t just wave the flag but takes it guidance from the principles that this country was founded on—that the American Flag uniquely represents. The occupy movement is not grounded in such principles and are often antithetical to them. And that is why if you suddenly see flags at their rallies it will be an empty gesture at best. ”
    = = = = = =
    Well, to be fair, there ARE flags and banners at the Occupy sites; it’s just that a lot of them show the communist hammer-and-sickle, or a stylized clenched-fist design which evokes the idea of communist solidarity. For some reason, the MFMSM seem to prefer not to show such flags in their nightly paeans to the Occupy movement. (They also seem to neglect showing the reams of communist/ marxist literature available at the Occupied sites. Hmm. Fancy that.)

    A_Nonny_Mouse (57cacf)

  15. One does wonder if Spock has a beard, in the place Dominic is reporting from, it’s not the United States we recognize, then it is the former perch of Andrew Sullivan, who moved on to he Daily Beast

    narciso (ef1619)

  16. A bit more detail about the situation in NY:

    Under city law, the park in question must be open to the public 24/7. *After* the initial clearing, the mayor’s office and the nypd have conceded this; the protesters will not be kept out of the park, because there is no legal basis for doing so.

    However, the park’s owner – this is a privately owned public space which is kept open 24/7 as part of a deal the owner made with the city in the 1920s – has posted regulations prohibiting, among other things, the erection of tents, sleeping in the park, or having personal possessions on the ground in a manner which unreasonably interferes with others’ use of the park.

    The legal dispute today was about whether those rules, which were posted *after the occupation began*, could be enforced. OWS is saying no, this interferes with their constitutional rights; NYPD is saying, wtf, this is private property, so the owner enforcing his rules on his property can’t violate your constitutional rights and don’t violate the owner’s agreement with the city.

    To get an injunction (or, rather, an extended injunction – OWS got an emergency injunction at 6am, which the NYPD ignored, followed by a hearing at 11 for a semi-permanent injunction until trial), OWS had to demonstrate a substantial likelihood of prevailing at trial; the judge said they hadn’t and denied the injunction. The trial will take place later.

    [I am, however, somewhat offended that during the 8 or so hours that the emergency injunction was in place, before it expired upon the judge's denial of the semi-permanent injunction, the NYPD ignored it. The police should not be in the business of ignoring court orders, even if the police - rightly, as it turned out - believe that the court order will expire real soon now.]

    aphrael (72c893)

  17. Elissa – I can’t speak for occupy movements outside of NYC, but the one here has been fairly well organized and clean. As an example: when the NYPD denied their permit to have portapotties placed in the park, they arranged to have them erected in the parking lot of a building rented by a local union.

    aphrael (72c893)

  18. The bottom line is, the Occupiers demand to be given things they haven’t earned. This is light-years away from what Dr King was seeking for black Americans- their ‘unalienable rights’ at long last.

    Jones (7e5261)

  19. The suggestion that the occupiers get involved with flags is symbolic of the real issue: there’s no there there.
    No content. No purpose. No rationale other than creating chaos.
    Meaningless worthless lives.
    So by all means, wrap those lives in flags.
    That’ll help the 1% who simply don’t understand our love of flags, this great country and all it symbolizes.

    Tea Party at Perrysburg (81b7f9)

  20. The wall to wall tents and tarps made it impossible for families, workers at lunchtime, and lovers out for an evening stroll in lower Manhattan to enjoy Zuccotti Park. The rights of the many to use the 24 hour park were clearly being impinged by a single group who had decided to set up permanent residence there. That should be a “no go” in any one’s book regardless of politics.

    Aphreal, I think you may be misinformed about it being “clean”. At the New York Zuccatti Occupy which I assume you are referring to, there have been several sexual assaults (rapes) as well as rampant open drug use. I believe there was an overdose death as well. There is also a bacterial infection called “Zuccatti lung” going around. I am on my way out for the evening and don’t have tome to add linkys but they are easily found using teh google.

    elissa (2b393f)

  21. Sexual assault is offensive and wrong but is not a ‘clean’ vs ‘dirty’ issue. Neither is drug use. ‘law-abiding’ vs. ‘non-law-abiding’, sure. But ‘law-abiding’ and ‘clean’ aren’t synonyms.

    The bacterial infection, you have a better case for, but i’m unconvinced it’s any worse than the transmission of disease via handholds in the subway system, which is terrible at this time of year.

    By ‘clean’ I mean to say that they cleaned up after themselves (as I said before, they rented porta-potties so as to stop annoying the local businesses). Which isn’t actually terribly surprising; the plethora of trash cans everywhere in manhattan encourages people, in general, to clean up after themselves.

    aphrael (72c893)

  22. I don’t like what Mayor Bloomberg did, the way he did it. It is really typical of the city when they go after the homeless. They throw out things. One person complained that he had lost 3 years worth of drawings. Now this could have been done differently.

    This is worse vandalism to any other people and it is no less stealing and vandalism than it would be to people living in homes. It is worse actually. The health reasons have no more reality than the urban blight reasons used for eminent domain.

    All this was not necessary – not even to get them out of there – and was really done to some degree on purpose. They gave them only a few minutes notice. Some of them, the real troublemakers, were prepared for all of this or are prepared to have anything they lost replaced. Not so many of the hangers on. This was cruel.

    Instead of having things confiscated, they could have been held hostage. And that would work a lot better. It might not even cost less. (if it ended sooner)

    I suspect Mayor Bloomberg didn’t wait till it got cold because of stupid predictions about somebody dying from the cold. He’s a sucker for that kind of stuff, if some expert tells him. That’s why the capital budget is so out of control. (You can make up a lot of excuses for doing anything.)

    That’s actually why he was going in both directions this whole time.

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)

  23. Sammy: I have been livid all day. Not at the fact that the camp was shut down, but at the fact that the NYPD ignored the 6am injunction.

    I understand that they did so because they expected (correctly) that the 11.30 am hearing would result in the injunction being denied, and that if they let everyone back in at 6, they’d just have to evict them again.

    But regardless of how good their reasons were, for roughly 10 hours today, the NYPD was ignoring a court order. That does *not* give me any reason to believe that the NYPD considers itself to be bound by the law.

    aphrael (72c893)

  24. weren’t some of those Occupy critters eating trans-fat laden food and drinking soda pop? I would’ve thought Bl00mberg would have let loose the Dogs of War on them.

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  25. Sammy

    they were trashing private property like as if they owned the place. f— their drawings.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  26. Now as a Classic Liberal A.K.A Conservative i must say this is expected.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  27. Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey on aisle 9

    Icy (7bb95e)

  28. Mexico only wants whitey in their homeland.

    /Race-baiting pigs

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  29. Wow! Even deeper thoughts on aisle 22

    Icy (7bb95e)

  30. modern nathan hales
    they have but one turd to give…
    pooping in the streets

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  31. Comment by aphrael — 11/15/2011 @ 3:47 pm

    After you’ve “settled in”, you’ll realize that the PC at 1-PP outranks almost everyone else in the political firmament in The Empire State, with possibly the exception of the head of the sanitation workers union.

    AD-RtR/OS! (9f0426)

  32. “… that they cleaned up after themselves…”, except for that guy who took a dump on a squad-car.

    AD-RtR/OS! (9f0426)

  33. I don’t like what Mayor Bloomberg did, the way he did it. It is really typical of the city when they go after the homeless. They throw out things. One person complained that he had lost 3 years worth of drawings. Now this could have been done differently.

    This is worse vandalism to any other people and it is no less stealing and vandalism than it would be to people living in homes. It is worse actually.

    Sammy Finkleman,

    Why is this worse? They were asked to leave. They chose not to. Consequences happen. That’s the basic problem I have with the occupiers. They consider themselves above the law all because they have a cause (convoluted though it may be…). They have no respect for other people’s property (see: Zucotti Park, privately owned), so why should they expect anything but the same in return?

    Dana (4eca6e)

  34. If the residents/small business owners of the Democrat-governed cities that were “occupied” around the country didn’t take note of the weak-kneed, non-response of their city governments to this dirt-bagger nonsense, you can bet your bottom dollar that most of the rest of the country did.

    Total dereliction of duty and they will pay dearly.

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  35. The mayor’s comments at a City Hall news conference came about seven hours after hundreds of police officers moved in to clear the park, after warning that the nearly two-month-old camp would be “cleared and restored” but that demonstrators who did not leave would face arrest. The protesters, about 200 of whom have been staying in the park overnight, initially resisted with chants of “Whose park? Our park!”

    Case in point.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  36. I don’t mean to stereotype, but I know a lot of Dems and leftists.

    The one thing that unites them is a deep hatred of America. They really dislike the people who make up the most of the country because those people disagree with their beliefs and ideas.

    They can’t fly the flag patriotically because it represents a society that can’t understand their superiority of thought.

    Even when they try, they can’t resist the temptation to fly it upside down, as evidenced on my local news tonight.

    They can’t understand that a nation of people has flaws and injustice, despite decades of good people trying to correct both.

    They know they want something fixed now, but they can’t express what they want fixed.

    All I can think of is when my then two-year-old daughter was demanding Cheerios when we were alone in the car.

    I couldn’t argue, because she was two and we were in the car.

    Ag80 (ec45d6)

  37. Such charming, erudite protestors you have there Mayor Bloomberg. Who could not be impressed with their passion and patriotism?

    “On the 17th, we going to burn New York City to the f-cking ground.

    Ain’t no more talking, They got guns we got bodies. They got bricks we got rocks. Let’s see what they got.

    …I want them…I want them to make that decision so they can see…in a few days you going to see what a molotov cocktail can do to Macy’s.”

    http://www.verumserum.com/

    elissa (2b393f)

  38. Never underestimate the sense of entitlement of someone who has grown up enjoying the prosperity of America, but never earned it themselves.

    There’s a reason so many identify with Obama, the ultimate yuppie, and also find it easy to harshly judge those leaders who pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, such as Cain or Palin or Perry, as not elite enough to deserve a senior role.

    It’s a fundamental insecurity in their hearts. They don’t feel so threatened by those who were born part of the aristocracy. It doesn’t suggest to them that their own choices are their own fault. They can just pretend life is a lottery, and scream that some demonized class of doers must pay for winning.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  39. I’d feel a whole lot better if Rudy was still mayor of NYC.

    elissa (2b393f)

  40. Sadly, Elissa, this is what democracy looks like.

    Some places are getting the government they deserve right now. I hope they learn their lesson, because this sure won’t be the first attempt by the left to extort results instead of persuade for them.

    Bloomberg never convinced most of us that he was a Republican. I find those who have, in their hearts, technocrat leanings, but steal the mantle of the GOP because it conveys principles they want to pretend to have, to be fundamentally evil.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  41. My family has friends who believe in the climate change scam.

    Too bad they refuse to see that they are being used like chumps.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  42. These people are so open-minded their brains spill all over.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  43. They’re re-running the 1993 episode of Cheers wherein Woody is running for the city council, and his campaign manager, Frasier, tells him, “Just say the word ‘change’ about a hundred times and you’ll do fine.”

    Icy (7bb95e)

  44. You know that bit from VS, reminds me of this insanity:

    http://stuartarchercohen.com/qanda/

    narciso (ef1619)

  45. Dustin: context is everything. NY voters overwhelmingly support OWS (the polls say), and general sentiment in my (admittedly small) circles is that Bloomberg shouldn’t have rousted them.

    Which is to say: by NYC standards, Bloomberg is a Republican.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  46. aphrael – I think the protests and the Democrat support for the protests are providing a great boost for Republican election prospects in 2012. Let the incoherence, squalor, sex crimes, drug use, property crimes, and assaults on capitalism continue!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  47. #Just Like The Tea Party

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  48. aphrael- how many of your circles who want the OWS to be left alone live within sight/hearing distance from their camp?

    MayBee (081489)

  49. occupy movement
    no coherent message found
    brain damage and drums

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  50. occupy movement
    defecaters of cop cars
    AK-47 and TB oh my

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  51. dance to the music
    sound of things falling apart
    de-evolution

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  52. Occupy Wall Street
    Anarchy is free speech
    Michael Moore has a meaty thing between his legs

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  53. what… Moore’s holding an extra-large pizza in his lap, Biden?

    ColonelHaiku (09a0f9)

  54. PPP: Kathunka. Occupy losing steam with American public.

    The Occupy Wall Street movement is not wearing well with voters across the country. Only 33% now say that they are supportive of its goals, compared to 45% who say they oppose them. That represents an 11 point shift in the wrong direction for the movement’s support compared to a month ago when 35% of voters said they supported it and 36% were opposed. Most notably independents have gone from supporting Occupy Wall Street’s goals 39/34, to opposing them 34/42.

    http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-favor-fading.html

    elissa (2d7916)

  55. No.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  56. I mean his Penis.

    *Shudders*

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  57. “what… Moore’s holding an extra-large pizza in his lap, Biden?”

    Colonel – With granny cheese.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  58. okay, now i am going to go put a drill to my head in an effort to remove the mental images Dohbiden has put there.

    And really, are we sure he has anything? i know he hasn’t seen it since 1989.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  59. I thought Michael Moore had Sean Penn’s head between his legs.

    Icy (aba449)

  60. “@Occupy LA Protester Arrested For Masturbating in Front of Children”

    aphrael – The above is why we need to let these protests continue. Obama approved, Democrat supported.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  61. Daleyrocks: ah, I see. They should be allowed to continue because doing so might hurt the Democrats, rather than for any idealistic purpose tied to the nature of political freedom.

    After all, we mustn’t let our belief in what the rules should be, or in fair application thereof, trump partisanship.

    (Yes, i’m being overly sarcastic. But, really, the motivation implied in your comment at #60 is disturbing. Surely whether or not the protests should be allowed to continue is a decision which should be made on principle, not on partisan advantage.)

    aphrael (5d993c)

  62. aphrael, except in how many instances did Democratically aligned local government already tolerate Occupy hippie festivals thinking it was to their advantage?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  63. SPQR: I don’t know what the motivation behind various city government actions *is*; I’m not watching local news coverage everywhere, and I don’t understand local politics really outside of the bay area.

    I would say, though, that the tolerance in NYC comes more from an ideological tolerate-protesters position than a partisan one. That is, NYC tolerated OWS not because it agreed with the message per se, but because the local populace thinks in general that tolerating protesters is right as a matter of principle.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  64. Also: “they did it first” is kinda a lame come back.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  65. “But, really, the motivation implied in your comment at #60 is disturbing. Surely whether or not the protests should be allowed to continue is a decision which should be made on principle, not on partisan advantage.)”

    aphrael – Actually, I find the support of Obama and Democrat Congressional leadership for the protests disturbing given the demonstrated violations of law, civility and preferential treatment given to the protestors relative to the Tea Party, which laughably, the media and politicians attempted to make comparisons.

    Since Democrats publicly aligned themselves with the protestors, I don’t understand why you think it is disturbing for me to wish their failed policies to demonstrate further failure. That seems a very principled position.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  66. Many pages have interesting links. The Domnic Toerney article one has a good one too.

    One of the comments on the Dominic Tierney page page says OWS would be much better if it supported something like the story of man who was the victim of abuse by lawyers that even stopped him from suing. It says one member’s page deals with this.

    But the people who organized that weren’t interested in that and that was one person. And it’s not the same theme as OWS had. This person might have better success affiliating with the Tea Party.

    Here was the comment:

    The Occupy movement will be much more respected by adopting an anti-corruption platform instead of the disjointed messages. An Occupy member’s page http://owwc.gu.ma , supporting a business owner who lost millions of dollars to a corrupt officials is a great example.

    This gu.ma page, when clicked on, goes to:

    http://progressivist.hubpages.com/hub/story-jeff-baron

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)

  67. aphrael–you may be far too young to know or have forgotten (I have no idea of your age) but the 1960′s anti war movement also started out simply and peacefully and with principle on a few college campuses. Young men and women who were unhappy about the war, the draft, felt the government was sending them off to be cannon fodder for unclear purposes and wanted to raise consciousness. It was made extra difficult because the fathers and grandfathers of many of these people had served proudly and patriotically and with great sacrifice and they could not accept the protesters’ views.

    Still all was going relatively smoothly intil

    elissa (2d7916)

  68. Comment by Icy — 11/16/2011 @ 9:45 am

    That’s on his obverse.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  69. “Daleyrocks: ah, I see. They should be allowed to continue because doing so might hurt the Democrats, rather than for any idealistic purpose tied to the nature of political freedom.”

    aphrael – Ah, they are demonstrating freedom of speech and expression by violating the law in various cities by camping in public spaces against explicit ordinances against such activities? Is that your argument?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  70. alpharel, its not a “they did it first”. Its the observation that Democratic interests are aligned with the OWS protests and trying to coordinate messages with them. Its the observation that the tolerance of the OWS movement has varied with the local government leaders belief in whether or not the protests have benefited them.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  71. “…I don’t understand local politics really outside of the bay area…”

    Then you do realize that the Mayor of Oakland’s many conflicting responses to the OWS encampment in her downtown has always been political, bending to the will of who has spoken with her most recently?

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  72. I should be able to make a tent wherever I want, crap on cop cars whenever I please, ruin local businesses, ignore local ordnances, spread disease, do drugs in pubic, jerk off on the streets, commit rape and sexual assault, and otherwise act the fool. Just like the TEA partiers.

    JD (065755)

  73. JD, you are such a threat to safety and security.
    Off to GTMO with you.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  74. Duh!continued note to aphrael(sorry)— the likes of some really radical elements got involved and became the public face of the anti-war movement (Ayers, Chicago7 black panthers, communists, SDS, etc) Violence, bombings, killings, anarchy spread and overtook the conversation that needed to be had about VietNam. The police/national guard got involved and some people died. America was horrified at how out of control things got.

    I don’t think you quite see it yet, but this is exactly where many of us feel OWS is headed. Particularly the violence in Oakland, SF, Portland show how rapidly things can get out of hand. Good people and good intentions and get co-opted by very evil people and ruin the message.

    elissa (2d7916)

  75. JD is such a threat to muslims.

    Off to the lair with you.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  76. “Good people and good intentions”

    elissa – What were the good intentions of OWS given its origins?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  77. JD @72 – You forgot arson.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  78. Daleyrocks, @65: I get that you think Democrats should be tarnished with the OWS protesters because the OWS protesters are their allies. That’s fine.

    What you said at 60, though, was that the protests should be allowed to continue _because they hurt the Democrats_. Not, say, because protests are good and we should encourage them. Not because they have a right to protest. Not even because they’re operating within the rules. No, they should be allowed to continue *for the reason that they hurt one political party*.

    That’s partisanship at its finest.

    Particularly so given that in 65 you are complaining about demonstrated violations of law; you’re basically saying that, despite continued violations of law, they should be allowed to continue their (illegal) activities so that it can hurt the Democratic party.

    —-

    Elissa, @65: your comment cuts out in the middle.

    For the record, I’m 37.

    —-

    Daleyrocks, at 69: my argument is that you appear to be saying “even though they’re breaking the law, they should be allowed to continue because it hurts the Democrats.”

    I’ve not actually commented in this thread on what I think of OWS, what I think their motivations are, etc. I’m merely objecting to the naked partisanship I perceive in your system.

    I do think that the reason NYC has tolerated the protests is that NY culture is in general tolerant of protests, not because it aligned with the Democratic party message.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  79. Well then, as long as The Greater Mob feels positively about any action of The Lessor Mob, those activities should continue regardless of what the law says.

    Isn’t it great to be a citizen of a Republic, which survives due to its respect for The Rule of Law, and not of Men?

    And you want to be a lawyer, who must take an oath to “…protect and defend the Constitution…against all enemies, Foreign and Domestic…”?

    Perhaps, aphrael, you should look into going into journalism.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  80. AD-RtR/OS: you seem to have conflated an analytic statement “this is why NYC is behaving in a particular way” with a statement about how NYC *should* behave.

    I seem to be experiencing that a lot in this conversation.

    As for what I personally believe on the subject, limited only to NYC, where I know the most about what’s going on because it’s in the local press:

    Zuccotti Park is a privately owned public space which is required to be open to the public 24/7. The owner *changed the rules* for using it after the protests began. In general, I take a dim view of retroactive rules changes; I don’t think it’s appropriate to impose new rules in such a fashion that they prevent currently ongoing uses which were allowed under the previous rules.

    That said, the *only* thing I’ve gotten really upset about over the entire period of the protests was the decision by the NYPD to ignore a court order for ten hours yesterday (there was an emergency TRO granted against the NYPD at 6.30am which was in effect until the supreme court had a hearing at 11.30 and issued a ruling. the ultimate ruling, at about 4.30, denied the request for a TRO. the NYPD completely ignored the TRO in effect between 6.30am and 4.30pm). That is, the eviction of the protesters didn’t anger me; ignoring the court order did.

    On the other hand, the protesters’ behavior yesterday in trying to take control of a church’s private property – tearing down a fence, etc – was terrible, and the protesters who got arrested doing that deserved it.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  81. “I’m merely objecting to the naked partisanship I perceive in your system.”

    aphrael – OWS is a political movement in my view, anti-capitalist, misguided, misinformed and clearly not representative of the 99% as it claims. Its protests are violating numerous laws and ordinances in venues across the country. Sex crimes, deaths, arson, public health concerns, violent clashes with police, public urination and defecation, and noise pollution have occurred in numerous locations across the country with the forbearance of largely Democrat big city government, and the support of unions, Obama and Democrat Congressional leadership.

    Given that background I fail to see how you can be critical of my partisanship. Democrats own OWS. I’ll reiterate that it is a principled stand to remind them of it every day until the elections.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  82. Comment by Aaron Worthing — 11/15/2011 @ 5:14 pm

    they were trashing private property like as if they owned the place. f— their drawings.

    This was one guy, who probably wasn’t doing it. Anybody that interested in drawing probably isn’t doing it. He was just stupid for joining in with these people.

    And I’m saying what happened to him is worse than what any of them did to anybody else (because it was more permanent. Anything trashed was probably completely reparable with the application of money. It was nothing personal to people.)

    I’m not talking about what members of OWS did to each other. Of course people in the park stole laptops and things – but even that isn’t everything. You can’t see how that’s bad?

    It’s true they didn’t treat people decently, but that doesn’t mean they had to not be treated decently. At least those people who weren’t so bad.

    There were rapes, and some other things maybe yes. And that’s worse than confiscation of 3 year’s worth of drawings, and the like, but this person doesn’t sound like he was one of the people doing that. He sounds feckless.

    He spoke to a reporter (I don’t think on the air) See those garbage trucks? They have all the things they had. He came from the west coast, and was there from the beginning.

    Now even though the whole raid was a surprise, they still had 45 minutes. If he’d been more on top of things, he probably could have rescued his drawing. He just wasn’t given enough time. This had to be deliberate. A person doesn’t just abandon things unless things really go too fast. Somebody wanted people to lose things. Even if you think some people deserve it, (and it’s really not legal except under the legal fiction that it’s a fire or health hazard) it was probably mostly the wrong people.

    Or possibly he even listened to other people: It could be they said: Hold out and we’ll stay. Leave all your stuff here, with our books, it’ll be safe. They won’t confiscate that. It’s protected by the First Amendment. Tents and generators maybe but not this. They won’t take clothing either. Removing things like that from the park is not in any of the court papers. Something like that.

    So he helped other people do whatever it was they wanted people to do – stand united whatever – They’ll be forced to retreat just like they did on Oct 14 because they don’t want any injuries and we won’t fight exactly – we’ve got this all planned – and meanwhile his own things got taken away.

    Maybe he even saw what was happening and wasn’t allowed to retrieve his material because he had waited too long.

    I don’t know exactly, but I can imagine.

    Reporters, you know, weren’t allowed to see what exactly was happening but it probably was only semi-legal and it’s not something anybody would like. That is in spite of the fact that nobody got hurt. There are some other cruel (and maybe more important to the city government, questionably legal) not nice things you can do.

    It’s maybe even crueler if you pretend it’s something else – a health hazard or whatever. Abandoned property, except it’s not.

    The people in Zucotti Park had been ordered out. They were given 45 minutes to leave. Some people too stubborn maybe got arrested or possibly just got a last chance to get out without being able to take anything with them. The police had already taken possession of the ground on which their possessions were.

    The time was the middle of the night Monday to Tuesday. It was picked because there would be the least number of people there at the time. The police had rehearsed but the whole thing was kept very secret. They didn’t want leaks. Only the highest ranking members of the police department knew something was really going to happen that night.

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)

  83. ==what were the good intentions of OWS…==

    daley–I know what you are getting at, but I also believe there are some well intentioned innocents genuinely concerned about the long term effects of severe income inequality and crony capitalism who are now being used and manipulated by adbusters, rabble rousers, unions, OFA, and professional far left provocateurs. Neighbors of mine, lovely people, have a daughter who is deeply involved in the environmental movement. She has been arrested a couple of times for being part of a peaceful sit in-tree in. Still, she is a nice girl one-on-one and while I disagree with her about her ideas and principles, I never doubt that she is sincere in them and truly believes she is doing good work. I see some of the OWS peeps’ interviews and I see her in them. They are the ones pleading for understanding and decrying the filth and drug use and violence in the OWS camps but don’t yet realize it has gotten beyond them and that the “message of awareness” they hoped to deliver has been lost in the chaos and criminality of the occupy tents.

    elissa (2d7916)

  84. Sure, if you want to remind the public and the Democrats of the link between the Democrats and OWS every day until the election, great.

    What bothers me is the ‘because’. You seem to be saying: *Because it will hurt the Democrats*, OWS should be allowed to continue to break the law. That linkage is partisan, not principled. It implies that if OWS were hurting Republicans, they shouldn’t be allowed to continue to break the law … which is to say, it implies that *who they help or hurt politically* is more important to you than *whether or not they are breaking the law*.

    Maybe you aren’t actually saying that, but comments 60 and 65 are most plausibly read in that fashion.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  85. “I’ve not actually commented in this thread on what I think of OWS, what I think their motivations are, etc.”

    aphrael – I think I have been clear. Let me apologize, if I have not. I don’t believe I have attributed any particular position on the protests to you. I have been speaking only for myself and responding to your criticisms of what I have said.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  86. Elissa: I think OWS is doing a good job of reminding thoughtful people on the left why consensus is a problematic way to run things: it makes it impossible to kick out problematic hangers-on.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  87. Comment by aphrael — 11/16/2011 @ 10:54 am

    On the other hand, the protesters’ behavior yesterday in trying to take control of a church’s private property – tearing down a fence, etc – was terrible, and the protesters who got arrested doing that deserved it.

    This is where you can see the way this was handled was a mistake. By confiscating their equipment – and not offering to give it back, if… amd by treating people callously who didn’t not expect it, the people who really wanted to do things really against the law, got more recruits. Everybody had less to lose. This still will blow over but it was no benefit to give people less to lose and make some people want to double down.

    You know somebody there, planning the whole Occupy Wall Street protest paid very careful attention to legalities. Zucotti Park had a peculiar legal status – it could not, by law, ever be closed at night.

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)

  88. They tied a dope smoking 9/11 denialist psycho to the Tea Party, whitewashed a Marxist suicide bomber,
    in Austin, a murderous lefty professor in Alabama,
    a similarly inclined subway shooter in Arlington,
    yes we will tie the OWS around the Dems with a turniquet

    narciso (ef1619)

  89. Comment by aphrael — 11/16/2011 @ 10:54 am

    Ignored a TRO…
    Didn’t the City notify the court that they would be appealing the issuance of the TRO?
    If so, wouldn’t the TRO be held in abeyance until the appeal was decided?
    Since the park was cleared FTMP prior to the TRO, it would seem to be a prudent action by the PD to not allow everyone back in until the matter had been decided.
    It is like a cease-fire, where hostile forces hold-in-place.
    As to “changing the rules”:
    ISTM that the property owners, who had years/decades-long established rules for conduct in “their” park, changed those rules in light of the conduct of the OWS mob that was in disregard to the existing rules.
    The park needed cleaning (for health and sanitation reasons that were conducive to protecting the “greater” health, not just of those in the park), and the only way to do that was to clear the park for a brief period of time, and then to tighten up the no-camping requirement for further use.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  90. OWS is doing for the Democrats, what the Chicago-7 did for them in ’68.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  91. “That linkage is partisan, not principled.”

    aphrael – Let me ask the question then, why have the protestors been allowed to violate laws and ordinances for up to two months so far in so many cities?

    Are the authorities in those cities, Oakland, Portland, Seattle, L.A., New York, etc., etc., making partisan decisions or principled decisions?

    If I look at those decisions and say why end the protest now, November 16, since you’ve allowed them to continue for two months, what is wrong with that? Did the Administrations in those cities all of a sudden wake up and realize they were making partisan decisions rather than principled decisions by tolerating the BS for so long? You tell me. I think it’s the former.

    Please explain why there is any conflict between being both partisan and principled. OTP.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  92. Sammy F. thinks that trash in a park is protected by the First Amendment, but is okay with a school banning American flag t-shirts?

    Strange.

    Icy (aba449)

  93. =Elissa, @65: your comment cuts out in the middle==

    aphrael, yes indeed it did. I continued my attempt at comparison with the 60′s protests though at what is currently #74. (A cat was integrally involved in my posting fail, BTW)

    elissa (2d7916)

  94. AD-RtR/OS: the 6.30am order as written was a temporary emergency order until the hearing. It was not held in abeyance until the hearing; neither the issuing judge, the judge overseeing the hearing, nor any other judge, placed the 6.30am order in abeyance.

    I understand the practical reasons for the decision: they were pretty sure they would win at the hearing, and letting people back in would just lead them to need to clear the park again.

    It was a pragmatic and practical decision that they believed justified ignoring a court order.

    I think that’s a dangerous and troubling precedent.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  95. Up twinkle fingers, jazz hands, and human microphones are the wave of the future.

    JD (065755)

  96. “What bothers me is the ‘because’. You seem to be saying: *Because it will hurt the Democrats*, OWS should be allowed to continue to break the law. That linkage is partisan, not principled.”

    aphrael – What I really would like to have seen is the OWS protestors treated in the same manner as the Tea Party, forced to get permits and pay fees for rallies, get denied the use of certain spaces, etc. Since they have been treated unequally, I have no sympathy for them.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  97. Daleyrocks: I can’t comment on the behavior of any city here other than NYC.

    In NYC, the city’s hands were tied for a long time by the fact that the owner of the property didn’t request an eviction. Without such a request, they had no legal basis for intervening.

    After that, it looks like they spent a great deal of time essentially wargaming the operation so they could carry it out quickly and efficiently without anyone getting hurt. It also looks like they had to coordinate with the property owner so that, among other things, the property owner would be ready to post new signage, etc.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  98. Daleyrocks: one of the most bizarre aspects of the NYC OWS story, to me, came when they went to the NYPD and asked for a permit to put portapotties in zuccotti park; it seems the local stores and restaurants had been complaining about use of their restrooms, and they had this money which had been donated, and renting porta potties would have been being a good neighbor, so why not?

    The NYPD denied the permit request on the grounds that it would obstruct traffic.

    (Maybe you have to have lived here to find this funny. Something is always obstructing traffic, both on foot and by car. It’s a bizarre reason to deny a permit – *everything* which gets a permit to operate on city streets by definition obstructs traffic, and there’s so much obstruction which goes on without a permit that it seems like an irrelevancy).

    So OWS negotiated with the occupants of a local building and rented porta-potties to put in their parking lot.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  99. aph

    i think that public safety can trump private property rights.

    i mean, if bloomberg can prevent me from having transfatty acides on my fries, how come he can’t prevent people from pooping in the streets or creating a situation where rape is so common they need rape-free zones? It is weird for the dictator of NYC to suddenly have such a free spirit about these things.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  100. That said, the *only* thing I’ve gotten really upset about over the entire period of the protests

    Really?! That is the only thing that you got upset about?

    JD (065755)

  101. Which is to say: by NYC standards, Bloomberg is a Republican.

    Comment by aphrael — 11/16/2011 @ 6:58 am

    My standards for Republicans probably seem a little high in that context.

    That’s unfortunate that you’re hearing people oppose what I consider common sense public order.

    Elissa is 100% right about the impracticality of a message being delivered through this medium of filthy lawless tent-city, but my real concern is that this kind of reaction is only just beginning. We have to draw a line, plain and simple for people to understand, about what kind of speech is OK and what kind is not.

    These protests can turn into riots. I think many of those you know who support OWS are drawing the line on speech based on ideas they sympathize with (which is natural) and that is going to bite them in the ass in the long run.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  102. We have to draw a line, plain and simple for people to understand, about what kind of speech is OK and what kind is not.

    Wrong. What happened to OWS has nothing to do with their speech, it is their atrocious behavior.

    JD (065755)

  103. “Maybe you have to have lived here to find this funny. Something is always obstructing traffic, both on foot and by car.”

    aphrael – I’ve lived in NYC and grew up nearby. I’m familiar with the area of the protest and how traffic gets obstructed in the area. I do have great sympathy for the business owners in the area who have experience disruption as a result of this demonstration of anarchy.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  104. “i think that public safety can trump private property rights.”

    I think there are laws about that.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  105. I think that’s a dangerous and troubling precedent.
    Comment by aphrael — 11/16/2011 @ 11:13 am

    Who will demand that “the Commish” be held in contempt for the actions of his troops?
    Will that judge file a motion for a contempt hearing?

    Perhaps the judge should have just sent “his” police force down to the park to enforce his order against the City’s police force.

    “Mr. Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it!”

    And, isn’t the principle that TRO’s, emergency or not, shouldn’t be issued unless the plaintiff has a likelihood of prevailing at trial?
    In the manner of greater public safety, there would be no reason for granting of a TRO, as having the police let the OWS back into the park, and then having to clear them again, would lead to an enhanced danger to that “public safety”.
    This judge needs to examine the standards used in this case, as they were demonstrably lacking.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  106. “i think that public safety can trump private property rights.”
    I think there are laws about that.

    There definitely are SCOTUS rulings on “attractive nuisances” that abridge property rights in favor of individual rights, and community rights.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  107. Wrong. What happened to OWS has nothing to do with their speech, it is their atrocious behavior.

    Comment by JD — 11/16/2011 @ 11:23 am

    Well, I’m wrong in acting like this is mere speech, of course.

    That’s what I was trying to say. Those who are tolerant of this because there are ideas being communicated, or because they agree with them, are missing the point.

    That’s why we need to draw a clear line so people know where the line is. These people should get the same treatment from police that they would get if they were promoting nazism or abolishing abortion. But they aren’t. They are getting a pass because, hey, they are just kids trying to stick it to The Man, and this has led to atrocious behavior.

    While this does undermine their message, I don’t really care about their message anyway.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  108. SF: I don’t like what Mayor Bloomberg did, the way he did it. It is really typical of the city when they go after the homeless. They throw out things. One person complained that he had lost 3 years worth of drawings. Now this could have been done differently.

    This is worse vandalism to any other people and it is no less stealing and vandalism than it would be to people living in homes. It is worse actually.

    Comment by Dana — 11/15/2011 @ 6:10 pm

    Sammy Finkleman,

    Why is this worse?

    Because the way to measure the effect of loss of property, is not the property is monetary value to a third party, but the amount of wasted effort it creates, or undoing of somebody’s plans.

    They were asked to leave. They chose not to. Consequences happen.

    That’s the whole thing. These weren’t expected consequences. And even then, you don’t want people to go through with losing things. It doesn’t do anything for their mood. They can either get depressed (do we really want that?) or they can try to go for broke, so to speak. There are much better ways to handle it. Now it’s different if it really expected. The people who lost stuff probably didn’t expect it. Some maybe did and took precautions. Who would take precautions? Real rabble rousers. Who had nothing of long term importance to themselves in the park and maybe not that much of short term importance..

    People should also be saved from their stupidity, if reasonably possible.

    The Mayor and the NYPD are probably quite proud of themselves that nobody was killed and nobody ws sent to the hospital, but really also, stuff have not been put in the garbage.

    That’s the basic problem I have with the occupiers. They consider themselves above the law all because they have a cause (convoluted though it may be…).

    No. not because they have a cause. Because they are (supposedly) the 99%.

    They had a chant. Who’s Park? Our park!

    Except it wasn’t. That park was for everybody. The judge actually ruled on the basis they were interfering with other people’s rights to use the park.

    The owners did have the right to make some rules. At first they were being discouraged by the city from insisting on their rights. At the end, there was a whole complex legal strategy to get rid of OWS.

    Some of the problem was caused by the reaction to them., There were some barricades put up by the police which were removed for a time but were put back up maybe too easily.

    There was also the drumming. There was use of bathrooms and sometimes damage.

    They have no respect for other people’s property

    That’s right, of course.

    so why should they expect anything but the same in return?

    They weren’t all that far gone.

    They’re attitude doesn’t mean nobody should have any respect for them, at least not without good reason. It doesn’t make them more civilized. It doesn’t reconcile people. Now for some people, there’s no hope, at least not till the shoe is the other foot for some time. But lack of respect doesn’t help to split them up.

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)

  109. ( see: Zucotti Park, privately owned),

    Zucotti Park wasn’t quite exactly privately owned. It was created by zoning laws. At some point in the past a builder got the right to build more, on the condition this park was created and the terms were it had to be open 24 hours day, 7 days a week.

    That’s different from city parks, which I think in most cases are closed at night (which is really intended to stop it from being used for sleeping)

    Now going by the rules, can cause problems:

    A Ticket-Fixing Scandal and a Charge That Needed Dropping by Jim Dwyer, November 9, 2011 New York Times

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/02/nyregion/dismal-tale-of-arrest-for-tiniest-of-crimes.htmlDismal Tale of Arrest for the Tiniest of Crimes by Jim Dwyer, November 2, 2011 New York Times

    The real truth there is that this was a sort of job action because some policemen have been arrested for letting tickets go away, when requested by union officials. So here was someone enforcing the law. She wasn’t even allowed to have someone retrieve ID as is usually done.

    From the later story:

    On the weekend of Oct. 22, Ms. Zucker was visiting New York with a group of seniors from Carnegie Mellon, and early Saturday, she went for a walk in the park with a friend, Alex Fischer, also 21. “They encounter a radio car, and they’re told, ‘You don’t belong in here now,’ ” Mr. Mullins said. The two young people apologized and started to leave, he said, adding, “As they’re exiting the park, they encounter a second car.”

    Those officers charged them with trespassing. “The spirit of the law is not designed for people who are cutting through the park, or who are from out of town and don’t know,” Mr. Mullins said. “It’s for people who go in there to sleep and create an unsafe atmosphere.”

    Mr. Fischer had his driver’s license and was issued a summons. Ms. Zucker had left her wallet at their hotel, a few blocks away. Instead of letting someone get her ID, the officer put her in handcuffs, she said. Mr. Fischer said that when he asked where Ms. Zucker was being taken, the arresting officer ordered him out of the park and threatened him with a disorderly conduct charge if he persisted.

    “Technically, they violated the law, and the department policy is if you don’t have ID, we put you into the system,” Mr. Mullins said, adding, “Common sense has to come into it.”

    Why didn’t it? “No one makes the call to let this slide because of the whole summons thing,” Mr. Mullins said.

    Ms. Zucker was incredulous: “They knew it was wrong and did nothing?”

    She spent the next 36 hours in handcuffs or behind bars. Mr. Fischer told the trip’s organizers of her arrest as soon as he got back to their hotel, and they contacted her parents, who live in Westchester County. But no one knew where she had been taken.

    For parts of two different shifts, two police officers — for a total of four — were assigned to escort her until she was turned over to correction officers.

    On Tuesday, I spoke with the commander of the 26th Precinct, Capt. David Ehrenberg, to get his perspective on how and why this had happened.

    “I’m aware of the situation,” Captain Ehrenberg said, but directed inquiries to headquarters. The senior officer in the public information office, Deputy Inspector Kim Royster, promised to find out more, but then stopped taking calls or answering e-mails.

    That left it to Ms. Zucker to provide an intelligent overview. She was dismayed that no one had intervened when the arresting officer, identified in court documents only as Officer Durrell, had, in her view, taunted her and needlessly prolonged her incarceration. She is grateful, she said, for officers who sacrifice and risk their lives.

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)

  110. Protest clearing coordinated with Obama Administration?

    “Over the past ten days, more than a dozen cities have moved to evict “Occupy” protesters from city parks and other public spaces. As was the case in last night’s move in New York City, each of the police actions shares a number of characteristics. And according to one Justice official, each of those actions was coordinated with help from Homeland Security, the FBI and other federal police agencies.

    The official, who spoke on background to me late Monday evening, said that while local police agencies had received tactical and planning advice from national agencies, the ultimate decision on how each jurisdiction handles the Occupy protests ultimately rests with local law enforcement.

    According to this official, in several recent conference calls and briefings, local police agencies were advised to seek a legal reason to evict residents of tent cities, focusing on zoning laws and existing curfew rules. Agencies were also advised to demonstrate a massive show of police force, including large numbers in riot gear. In particular, the FBI reportedly advised on press relations, with one presentation suggesting that any moves to evict protesters be coordinated for a time when the press was the least likely to be present.”

    http://www.examiner.com/top-news-in-minneapolis/were-occupy-crackdowns-aided-by-federal-law-enforcement-agencies

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  111. Comment by JD — 11/16/2011 @ 11:23 am

    Wrong. What happened to OWS has nothing to do with their speech, it is their atrocious behavior.\

    The issue in the case of Occupy Wall Street
    wasn’t even Freedom of Speech. It was an open and shut case this was not about freedom of speech.

    It was another provision of the First Amendment that applied:

    the right of the people to peaceably assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    And the two clauses here are treated as independent rights. The assembling doesn’t have to be to petition the government.

    So what was involved was The right…to peaceably assemble

    But there are limits to that. It still doesn’t give you the right to camp out in a park for days on end, if it doesn’t otherwise exist, or prevent anybody else from using a park intended for the use of the general public..

    New York City always finds places for demonstrations.

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)

  112. It can easily be discerned that their assembly was not peaceful.
    Epic FAIL!

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  113. New York City always finds places for demonstrations.

    I understand that Riker’s Island is available.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  114. daley–you don’t suppose all this coordination at the highest levels was because the highest levels were becoming very aware that OWS was losing public support, do you? I doubt if the PPP poll I linked above is the only intelligence being gathered and analyzed on the subject. When OWS became more a political handicap than a partisan benefit, it was then time to shut down the encampments.

    elissa (2d7916)

  115. Heh. If you really want to make them irrelevant, give them a permit to protest on City Island. Sure, the residents of City Island will be annoyed, but everyone else will ignore them.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  116. Attica! Attica!

    Icy (aba449)

  117. aph, what do you have against the residents of City Island?

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  118. “daley–you don’t suppose all this coordination at the highest levels was because the highest levels were becoming very aware that OWS was losing public support, do you?”

    elissa – I question the timing, especially since Obama was in Asia, er Hawaii for his meet and greet handing out trinkets exclusively designed for Michelle, but skipping the dress up tradition started 20 years ago.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  119. Zucotti Park wasn’t quite exactly privately owned. It was created by zoning laws.

    – Boy are you in for a SHOCKA when you discover how much private land within urban areas was created (or, if you will, “freed up”) as the result of zoning laws. Better be sitting down when you “investigate” this!

    Icy (aba449)

  120. AD-Rtr/OS: absolutely nothing. I know nothing of them and have no experience with them. My point wasn’t to be anti-them, it was to provide a (joking) way to make the protesters irrelevant: exile them to somewhere that nobody cares about (except the people who live there). Everyone else will forget about them.

    aphrael (5d993c)

  121. “When OWS became more a political handicap than a partisan benefit, it was then time to shut down the encampments.”

    elissa – Don’t talk to me about partisanship, I’m all about the principles. Heh!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  122. daley–I’ve found it helps to get through life if one owns a bit of cynicism.

    elissa (2d7916)

  123. aphrael,

    I’m having a hard time reconciling that Zuccotti Park seemed safe and clean with this New York article about scabies, lice and lung ailments at the Park. It makes sense that an environment like that would have these problems but I guess it could just be CYA from Bloomberg.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  124. DRJ, what a sad story that is. Scabies? I never had such a problem at a Tea Party. Imagine attending a rally where everyone smells like deodorant and 90% of people are smiling? OWS can’t.

    Was it Elissa who said she’d be a lot more confident if Rudy were mayor? So would I.

    It’s mayors like Bloomberg who are far too guided by their hopes for their reputation that just can’t manage to get a good reputation. He’s trying to triangulate something where he’s not alienating businesses and he’s not looking too friendly to “his wall street friends” (to quote your link).

    Why not just enforce the law really well, and let your reputation take care of itself? Well, the answer is because NYC doesn’t want that kind of government, and they are getting the government they deserve as a result.

    Those businesses should move to Houston, Dallas, and Austin.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  125. It sounds like most of the people affected by this are families and small businesses and they probably don’t want to move anywhere. But the drums would drive me crazy.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  126. aphrael, that is why I sarcastically suggested Riker’s, since it is famously known for housing the City lock-up (are there actually any residents on Riker’s?), which to me would make it ideal for OWS, on either side of the wire (or, ideally, straddling it).

    Those businesses should move to Houston, Dallas, and Austin.

    You have to wonder how much it will take before the NYSE recognizes reality and relocates to some locale in TX, FL, or TN – all states without a State Income Tax.

    How does the “New York Stock Exchange of Nashville” sound (riffing on Artie Moreno’s “Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim” nonsense)?

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  127. I realize DRJ is totally right that people don’t just leave NYC and their small business and family because of some scaby riddled bongo drummer, I was meaning more like AD’s point about those who really have no inherent reason to be located in a place that is punitive to success while also being miserable.

    NYC is a terrific tourist destination with much better pizza than Chicago, and great theatre. Absence definitely makes the heart grow fonder in this case.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  128. Comment by elissa — 11/16/2011 @ 12:05 pm

    When OWS became more a political handicap than a partisan benefit, it was then time to shut down the encampments.

    That’s pretty much waht Rush Limbaugh said today. he also said Obama started them up.

    But it is not totally useless for all political purposes.

    I just got this e-mail less tahn 10 minutes ago, from the Working Families Party (this party cross-endorses democrats and is considered, at best, to be a tool of public employee unions.)

    After the protesters were evicted from Zuccotti Park last night, one writer put it this way: “You Can Pull Up the Flowers But You Can’t Stop the Spring.”

    Mayor Bloomberg and Brookfield Properties got their way yesterday, kicking the protesters out of Zuccotti Park. But the ideas behind the protest have spread – and they’re much more powerful than any one camp site. You cannot evict an idea whose time has come.

    Tomorrow evening, thousands of New Yorkers will gather at Foley Square at 5pm to march to the Brooklyn Bridge and declare that we are the 99%. Will you join us?

    Click here to sign up now.

    Can’t make it? Click here to sign our solidarity petition – over 10,000 people have already.

    Hundreds of protesters were arrested, and many spent over 24 hours in jail. After the eviction, Mayor Bloomberg won in court, blocking protesters from bringing back tents or sleeping bags to the park.

    There’s something deeply wrong when unlimited corporate campaign spending is protected by the first amendment, but a protest in a park isn’t.

    What would have happened if a court in Greensboro, North Carolina blocked the sit-ins at Woolworth’s in 1960? Free speech – truly free speech – is necessary to achieve real social change.

    Thursday, we’re going back to the streets to march in solidarity with the 99% movement. We must prove that the 99% will not be silenced.

    Show up, stand in solidarity and protect our right to lawful, peaceful protest.

    November 17 at 5PM
    Foley Square (Duane and Centre St.)

    Click here if you can make it.

    http://action.workingfamiliesparty.org/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=5024

    If you can’t come, please sign this petition to voice your support.

    http://action.workingfamiliesparty.org/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=5035

    And spread the word.

    In solidarity,

    Joe Dinkin & the WFP Team

    P.S. – WFP Executive Director Dan Cantor was on CNN’s American Morning today to talk about the future of the movement. Check it out!

    Become a WFP fan on Facebook. Follow the WFP on Twitter.

    Become a WFP Sustainer! Other political groups have corporate donors. We have you. Just $5 a month supports our fight for a better New York.

    This is a message from the Working Families Party…..

    The links actually showed up as blue without teh URLs, but when the message is cut and poasted the URLs appear.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  129. ==much better pizza than Chicago==

    OK, watch it there buddy.

    elissa (2d7916)

  130. I try not to take sides in the really important debates but Chicago-style is much better than New York pizza.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  131. As always, a woman of taste, DRJ. Thank you.

    elissa (2d7916)

  132. No contest. NYC’s is better.

    Not that I’ll turn down Chicago pie, which is very much pie.

    And hey, I’m in practically rural Texas. The best pizza joint here is attached to the grocery store and frankly… might be some joker heating up Digiorno now that I think about it.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  133. Anarchy is not democracy chumpstains at OWS.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  134. What is with occupy london?

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  135. An elderly man and pregnant women was pepper sprayed…………..well they shouldn’t have shacked up with anarchists and commies and nazis then.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  136. I spend a lot more time in New York than I used to, and I can accept that their pizza is OK, just different. I even fold it sometimes.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  137. YOUR AWESOME carlitos.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  138. Thin-crust anytime, no matter where it’s from.
    If I want dough, I’ll just buy a loaf of Italian break, and a container of marinara sauce to dunk it in.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  139. I even fold it sometimes.

    /shakes fist

    Just kidding.

    But seriously, the down is so much better experienced as a tourist than an inmate/citizen, IMO.

    Didn’t realize folks didn’t love that pizza they have. Maybe I’m just luckier? I think it’s pretty damn good.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  140. “break”…there’s that finger-dyslexia again…I meant to type “bread”.

    AD-RtR/OS! (889f1e)

  141. Downtown residents finally get relief. But not from the OWS port-a-potties (which are mentioned in the article).

    In the weeks before the NYPD finally cleared Zuccotti Park, the Downtown Community Coalition formed to demand action.

    For some in the group, the last straw was the incessant drumming, which some call psychological abuse. For others, it was the defecating in bags and improper disposal of medical waste — the general public-health crisis caused by the protesters’ prolonged stay in the park.

    More than anything else, though, the reason for the Downtown Community Coalition’s existence is the complete failure of their elected officials to act on this very real attack on their quality of life.“It’s not even protesting anymore,” said group member Collin Schwartz. “At this point it’s just camping in Manhattan.”

    Adds Gerstman: “This has nothing to do with protesting; it’s about an illegal occupation and encampment. They’re breaking the law by setting up tents, sleeping in the streets.”

    The group is also ready to fight any return by the Occupy Wall Street crowd — including filing litigation against park owner Brookfield Properties and the city

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/blame_the_politicians_1L2Bo8OX5GoHnX8esIcwLM#ixzz1duGhJhtl

    elissa (2d7916)

  142. I’m glad they are wising up, Elissa. You get treated as badly as you let yourself be treated.

    Dustin (cb3719)

  143. The economy is on a precipice of disaster thanks to the egotistical cocksure tax and spenders the OWS braintrusts shack themselves up with.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  144. I wrote: One person complained that he had lost 3 years worth of drawings…

    Now I saw this in today’s New York Daily news (I hadn’t read this before:

    The city said protesters can reclaim their belongings at the Sanitation Department’s garage on W. 56 St.

    If this is true, then this was done much better than I had originally thought. (At the time that person who had lost his drawing spoke, the sanitation trucks were all still parked there.)

    Except that:

    1) They should have been told that right away (that they could get it eventually.) It would have been even better to give a warning – mayeb a few moire would leave.

    2) That should apply to non-valuable things – not just things that have obvious value. It’s so easy to leave out small or insubstantial things.

    But if ALL of it was taken there and people will be allowed to look through it, good. And this can be used as leverage to end this.

    3) Maybe this wasn’t part of the original plan.

    I see this on a New York Times blog:

    http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/updates-on-the-clearing-of-zuccotti-park/

    There’s a picture: NYC Mayor’s Office via Yfrog

    It’s all there waiting: protesters’ belongings, including these books, stacked at a Sanitation Department garage on West 57th Street.

    The picture shows only books. They seeme to have sorted them out into categories, very possibly lkmiting this to things that have resale value.

    They also seem to have mixed up things that belonged to different people, or to nobody. How are they going to stop people from claiming things that don’t belong to them? Trust everybody?? Or decide that they can’t, and tehn what?

    When the protesters were evicted from Zuccotti Park early Tuesday, the police distributed fliers saying that they would be able to reclaim their belongings “as of noon today, with proper identification.”

    But after protesters sorting through the mountain of possessions piled in a Sanitation Department garage on West 57th Street in search of their stuff found some hypodermic needles, the authorities called a halt and summoned hazardous-materials workers in protective gear, a sanitation officer said.

    Protesters who arrived at the garage around noon looking for their stuff were told to return Wednesday. They were not pleased.

    A man and a woman pulled up to the garage in a compact car with Ohio plates and asked the trio of officers standing guard how to collect their things. One officer said they would have to return the next morning at 8 a.m. In the meantime they could call 311 with questions.

    Then two men from Time’s Up, the environmental group that has helped lead the protesters’ sustainability initiatives, arrived in search of several bike-operated power generators.

    Bill DiPaola, the group’s executive director, said at least eight of the generators, each worth $800, was taken.

    Mr. DiPaola noted that the mayor had also said the protesters would be able to claim their property.

    “Now the only thing we have to go by is the mayor’s word,” he said.

    Later in the afternoon, Martin Becze, 25, a computer engineer from Howe, Indiana took the subway to the garage to find his backpack, which he said a police officer grabbed from him during the raid. Mr. Becze said the backpack contained dress clothes, including leather shoes passed down from his grandfather, which he had packed for an interview Wednesday morning. The bag also held his laptop.

    “I’m a programmer…I make my living off that,” he said. “I feel really powerless.”

    — Patrick Wall

    This can be either done right, or wrong. And of course there are hypodermic needles there – they have to know that because of what was going on. Someone should have known that from the beginning.

    I suppose now they’ll be searching for hazardous material and drugs and makeshift weapons and getting rid of that. If that’s all they do, all right. They actually probably did search before,m but missed things.

    1) that wasnt the original plan.,

    23

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  145. “But the ideas behind the protest have spread – and they’re much more powerful than any one camp site. You cannot evict an idea whose time has come.”

    Sammy – What are the idea(s)? How can I tell if I want to join the WFP in an illegal bridge closing if I don’t understand the idea(s)?

    The bridge dealio is not just a NYC thing. They are scheduled at least three places in Michigan and I’m sure in other states.

    Feel the power of the 99% slactivists!!!!!!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  146. Comment by Icy — 11/16/2011 @ 11:10 am

    Sammy F. thinks that trash in a park is protected by the First Amendment, but is okay with a school banning American flag t-shirts?

    Strange.

    No, the trash, or supposed trash is not protected by the First Amendment. But, legal cover or not, taking that away is just plain stealing. That’s teh problem.

    The American flag, in the right circumstances, can be disruptive, or a form of hate speech, and a school (that has some rights of policing itself and also is dealing with children) has a right to ban the symbolism.

    Things don’t always mean what they usually mean.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  147. Is Sammy a touch all over the board? Save the OWS art!!!!!!

    JD (0c4797)

  148. When asked to comment Wednesday about the deaths and crimes that have occurred around Occupy protests being held across the country, Rep. Maxine Waters said “that’s life and it happens.” “That’s a distraction from the goals of the protesters.”

    elissa (2d7916)

  149. Elissa – care to bet if Maxine would say the same if it was about TEA partiers?

    I vote NY pizza.

    JD (0c4797)

  150. Save the OWS art!!!!!!

    One person’s art is another person’s trash.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  151. Zuccotti Park is a privately owned public space which is required to be open to the public 24/7. The owner *changed the rules* for using it after the protests began. In general, I take a dim view of retroactive rules changes; I don’t think it’s appropriate to impose new rules in such a fashion that they prevent currently ongoing uses which were allowed under the previous rules.

    So if I own a business that stays open 24 hours at this moment in time, I am never allowed to change those hours because customers are shopping at the time I wish to close? Unfricking believable!

    No, the trash, or supposed trash is not protected by the First Amendment. But, legal cover or not, taking that away is just plain stealing. That’s teh problem.

    So what you are saying is that these morons, in violation of no camping laws, can move their whole household there, be warned that they will have to leave, refuse to leave, then I have to take care that their property is preserved. BULLSHAT! They camp out illegally, they bring their personal property and other crap there while in violation of the no camping laws, then they fricking deserve to lose it, PERIOD. No if, ands, or buts about it.

    They did this knowing that sooner or later the laws would have to be enforced on their scummy, diseased ridden moronic asses.

    peedoffamerican (ee1de0)

  152. It continually amazes me that the OWS protesters have not all suffocated. They are truly too stupid too breathe.

    peedoffamerican (ee1de0)

  153. The violent OWS protesters are exactly what the libturd media tried to portray the TEA Party as. I hope the OWS protesters are hung around the neck of the libturd demoncrap Anti-American party, and drowns it in the deepest part of the Marianas Trench, never to surface again.

    peedoffamerican (ee1de0)

  154. The stolen art is just like what Nazis did to the Jews. NYPD Plunder.

    MayBee (081489)

  155. The stolen art is just like what Nazis did to the Jews. NYPD Plunder.

    Comment by MayBee — 11/16/2011 @ 6:07 pm

    To compare this to the Nazis is just plain sick! I have yet to see any of these morons being sent to the “showers”, gassed to death, and all of their possessions stolen.

    peedoffamerican (ee1de0)

  156. That cracked me up, MayBee.

    JD (318f81)

  157. elissa,

    I googled and could not find where Maxine told OWS to go to hell… maybe I missed it.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  158. I don’t know about going to hell but the Maxine Waters’ “That’s life” quote was reported by CNS News, Dana. I think Hot Air also posted it.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  159. DRJ,

    I was being sarcastic – last August Maxine Waters said just that to the Tea Party. I have yet to hear her say the same about OWS. She is willing to ignore serious crimes at OWS but lashed out at the TP – where there is no crime. Ironic.

    “I’m not afraid of anybody,” Waters said at the summit in Inglewood, Calif. “This is a tough game. You can’t be intimidated. You can’t be frightened. And as far as I’m concerned, the ‘tea party’ can go straight to Hell.”

    Dana (4eca6e)

  160. Ah, good memory and good point. I like it.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  161. Don’t know if you saw the USA Today ranking chart of personal wealth of those in congress which is out this week. I thought it was pretty interesting with quite a few surprises. Maybe I’ve been under a rock, but I had no idea Darrell Issa is the richest one. Actually, there are 57 of them in the “1%”. Down further, Maxine Waters is a millionaire and Sheila Jackson Lee almost one. I’ve always thought the combined brain power of those two ladies is less than my goldfish. What a country, huh?

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2011-11-15/congress-wealthy-1/51216626/1

    elissa (2d7916)

  162. Heh. How many of those 57 wealthiest do you think got rich from buying stocks in companies that were directly affected by their legislative efforts???

    Dana (4eca6e)

  163. Dana- what surprised me most was how very many claim a net worth of less than $100,000 and even a whole bunch with negative net worth. (The figures apparently do not include any equity in a primary residence.)

    elissa (2d7916)

  164. the Working Families Party (this party cross-endorses democrats and is considered, at best, to be a tool of public employee unions.)

    The WFP is another name under which ACORN operates.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  165. Wall Street is to blame for all our ills not Obama spending money on Solyndra.

    Thanks OWS scumbags.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  166. Apparently economic equality is Michael Moore not paying his fair share because according to those OWS scofflaws Moore paying more taxes is evil.

    By the way Maobama bailed out Wall Street but the OWS nazis still endorse him.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)

  167. And yes the economy being in hell is not the fault of Obama bailing out Wall Street but the fault of Wall Street it self for existing.

    DohBiden (ef98f0)


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