Patterico's Pontifications

10/30/2011

Should Perry attack Romney and Cain?

Filed under: 2012 Election — Karl @ 9:37 am

[Posted by Karl]

As GOP consultant Alex Castellanos, who worked for a rival campaign in 2006, memorably put it: “Rick Perry has not won elections in Texas because he is loved.  He has won because he sticks a fork in his opponent’s eyeballs.”

However, PJ Tatler (and HotAir alumnus) Bryan Preston thinks going negative would be a negative for Perry at this point in the campaign:

Rick Perry excels at retail politics and in one-on-ones with local and national media. His past campaigns have also excelled at social media. They have also excelled at attacking past opponents very effectively, but the current opponents, Mitt Romney and Herman Cain, aren’t likely to succumb to normal political opposition attacks. Romney’s known knowns are baked in. Everyone knows he’s a flip-flopper, but most Republicans are willing to vote for him against Obama if they have to. Herman Cain is too likeable and he’s made of Teflon right now. Nothing is sticking to him. Attacks on Cain will blow back on whoever launches them.

So I don’t think Perry can effectively attack either one without damaging himself. Bachmann is a good object lesson here. She went so negative so fast that she ended up destroying her own campaign. There’s a very real risk that while Perry won’t say the ridiculous things that Bachmann said to accelerate her downfall, he could nevertheless similarly damage himself in a sustained attack on Romney. Gingrich and Cain have stayed positive, and risen in the polls. But both Gingrich and Cain have questionable staying power.

Bryan might not be wrong about this, but some of his premises are debatable, particularly those about Romney.

First, note that in 2010, Perry beat Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison in the primary for Texas governor.  Hutchison was both well-known and generally well-liked among Texas Republicans.  Romney begins without the level of support among GOP base voters she enjoyed. (The same is now equally true for Perry, but the point here is that Perry was able to attack a successful, more moderate rival and win.)

Second, are Romney’s negatives baked in?  Perry’s attack on Romney hiring a gardening contractor that employed illegal immigrants (which continued even after the Boston Globe wrote about it) produced the new Kinsleyan gaffe suggesting Romney only cared about the situation because he was running for office.  The episode, small in itself, is a reminder that Romney is more flappable than his press clippings suggest.

Third, for a bigger example, try the latest Kaiser tracking poll.  Most of the news focused on the new low in approval for Obamacare.  Less reported was this nugget:

With Mitt Romney among the top candidates for the GOP presidential nomination, this month’s poll also asked the public about their impressions of the Massachusetts health reform law that passed when Romney was the state’s governor. The survey finds that nearly three quarters of the public, including seven in ten likely Republican presidential primary voters, say they don’t know enough about the Massachusetts law to have either a favorable or an unfavorable opinion of it. (Emphasis added.)

This potentially major negative for Romney is not baked in.  It’s not even half-baked in.  If 70% of likely GOP primary voters don’t know about Romneycare, what else don’t they remember about Romney? 

Political junkies, e.g., people who write for and comment at political blogs, need to be careful not to assume people remember the ins and outs of the 2008 campaign.  The number of people who would definitely not vote for Romney in a general election has dropped significantly since 2007.  The WaPo asserts this is because Republicans have warmed to him, when the real answer may be they have forgotten about him, or never knew much about him.  In the latter case, some aggressively comparative campaigning might erode the primary pillar of the Romney campaign, electability. 

On the other hand, I agree with Bryan that it would be unwise to attack Cain generally, and not just because Cain is likeable.  Rather, the point for Perry (or Cain, for that matter) is to try to become the consensus NotRomney.  Attacking other NotRomneys, especially one as likeable as Cain, does not move toward that goal.  Although Bryan thinks Bachmann hurt herself by going negative early, she also hurt herself by choosing to make Pawlenty and Perry the focus of her most pointed criticisms. 

That said, now that Perry is rolling out his own platform, he will have an opportunity to create a contrast with Cain’s 9-9-9 proposal.  Perry can criticize the plan without criticizing the man.  Perry might be forced to do some of that, if only to prevent Cain from becoming the beneficiary of Perry’s attacks on Romney.

Bryan correctly notes the potential for blowback from going negative (at least with respect to Cain; Romney’s supporters are unlikely to switch to Perry).  On the other hand, hardly any Republicans or leaners like Perry much now, so perhaps Perry has little to lose.  Either way, Bryan is right about Perry needing to go retail and talk radio/online media, as he needs to build positives regardless of whether he goes on the attack.  That assumes Perry can build positives, which is also debatable.  Castellanos may have summed it up in a couple of sentences.

Update: Looks like Slate’s John Dickerson sides with Bryan. (h/t Allahpundit)

–Karl

173 Responses to “Should Perry attack Romney and Cain?”

  1. Ding!

    Karl (f8f210)

  2. Perry’s attack on Romney hiring a gardening contractor that employed illegal immigrants

    Now that was an important winning issue if there ever was one!

    By all means, go negative! Avoid sharing your plans for the future! Hide those leadership skills. Highlight backhanded, counter-productive back-biting, for it will make you stronger and your opponents weaker when they ultimately prevail.

    And they will. Prevail.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  3. better than 90% of everyone what’s ever going to know that Wall Street Romney is a wheedling banal plasticine whore already knows it I think

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  4. gardening is a calling you can get no matter where you are legal or not – you have to follow your heart

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  5. Col,

    Frankly, I’ve never understood the “go easy” school of campaigning. Do you really think Romney (or anyone else) is better off having to deal with attacks for the first time in a general election campaign, increasing the likelihood of mishandling in front of a more attentive general public? I hear people talk about whichever commandment is supposed to be in play here, and remember that Reagan ran in ’68 on a “stop Nixon” platform and then challenged Ford, the incumbent GOP president. I also remember GHWBush calling Reagan’s suppy-side plan “voodoo economics,” and never once thought that if only Bush hadn’t said it, the Democrats would never have attacked supply-side economics.

    Karl (f8f210)

  6. Perry should tell us why he should be President. If he can’t make that case, he should go home.

    The last debate made me never to want to vote for Perry (or Romney) and more of that crap won’t help matters.

    Ask yourself: If Chrysler ran ads attacking Ford and GM by showing pictures of deadly car crashes, would that make you want to buy a Chrysler? Then why is that a good idea for Republicans? People don’t actually HAVE to vote for one of the Republicans, after all.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  7. The media wants Perry to attack Romney and Cain. Therefore he shouldn’t. Q.E.D.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  8. Negativity builds character! It demonstrates that you have the positive outlook and the intellectual capacity required to forcefully explain why the voters should consider what you have to offer them. The dire problems this country faces require negative action to resolve them. Tell the people what you won’t do, what your opponents won’t do to put this country back on a solid footing. Convince us all that the light at the end of the tunnel isn’t a more prosperous, peaceful future, it really is a train filled with God-hating Communists and Socialists, hell-bent on destroying the American Way of Life.

    Truly the Executioner’s Song.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  9. Of course, since I support Gingrich, if the next debate had Romney, Cain and Perry bitch-slapping each other, with Gingrich looking his presidential self, it wouldn’t particularly bother me. I mean who wouldn’t want to run against Larry, Moe and Shep?

    Kevin M (563f77)

  10. I think it’s understood that Mr. Governor Perry seeks to govern America along the same pro-growth job creating lines he’s governed Texas.

    If Wall Street Romney governs America like he governed Texas he’s going to be fighting global warming and inventing socialized healthcare schemes.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  11. oops sorry I mean if Wall Street Romney governs America like he governed massachusetts

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  12. Karl, I think I understand what you are saying. I just think that this coming election will be one where the overwhelming incompetence, sheer malfeasance, ineptitude and lack of good faith on the part of the Obama administration clearly overshadows any negative that any of these candidates possess.

    Americans want to have hope, they want to believe that America can be steered clear of the Road to Oblivion that close to 80% of us believe we are currently driving down at a high-rate of speed. Americans want to believe that we can make things better for our children, grand-children and generations after them. They thirst for the knowledge that there are people who understand what is important and who know the fundamental principles of what America was founded upon that still ring true for the vast majority of Americans.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  13. Tell us what you can do, why you believe you can accomplish it, how you are going to accomplish it, what are your long-term/short-term priorities.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  14. Of course, since I support Gingrich, if the next debate had Romney, Cain and Perry bitch-slapping each other, with Gingrich looking his presidential self, it wouldn’t particularly bother me. I mean who wouldn’t want to run against Larry, Moe and Shep?

    and who wouldn’t want to run against a guy who looks like a character straight out of Lord of the Rings?

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  15. cheap shot, I know…

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  16. Perry should tell the OWS their is a fine line between protesting and threatening people on your side with murder and defecating on cop cars.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  17. Wall Street Romney doesn’t understand that using the state to forcibly herd normal non-Wall Street people into a socialized health care scheme “for their own good” is not in keeping with any of the fundamental principles of what America was founded upon

    he sure is a snotty little thing

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  18. ____________________________________________

    The media wants Perry to attack Romney and Cain.

    As a conservative, I admit to having a few guffaws back in 2008 when Hillary was in a slugfest with Barack. In particular, when some of Hillary’s supporters apparently were trying to dig up dirt on Michelle Obama spouting off blatantly racist things in public. However, there also was a lot of ammunition in general that the two leftists/Democrats could use against each other, given Obama’s “goddamn America” background and Clinton’s “sniper fire on airport tarmacs” background.

    By contrast, the sniping — at least so far — that Romney has aimed at Perry, and Perry has aimed at Romney, has been a turn-off. The two need to go beyond the issue of college grants to illegals and illegals employed as gardeners.

    Mark (411533)

  19. The decision we face in 2012 is too important to leave to people who are squabbling over who did what when. We need competence and leadership and Perry particularly isn’t showing it. Romney isn’t either if he continues to be baited.

    The correct answer to attacks on trivialities is “There you go again.” And move on to your solutions for the future.

    So far, all I’ve heard from Perry is “Drill, baby, drill” and “Yo Mama!” Is that all he has? More “Yo Mama!” won’t impress.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  20. I wonder what if the OWS threatens to shoot the lefty military men will they support their right to do so?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  21. and who wouldn’t want to run against a guy who looks like a character straight out of Lord of the Rings?
    Sorry, but I don’t get it. Yes, Gingrich is fat and dumpy, but how does that relate to LOTR?

    Now the others (by actions if not looks):
    Romney: Saruman
    Perry: Denethor
    Cain: Butterbur of Bree

    Kevin M (563f77)

  22. ColonelHaiku-Perry is a meanie.

    Just think the left will throw OWS under the bus especially if they demand Obamas impeachment.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  23. The media wants Perry to attack Romney and Cain.

    Check the update. That said, there are going to be some in the media who do want the attack, as the media thrives on conflict. This brings me to another type of thinking I’ve never understood, which is the reflexive claim that if some segment of the left wants something, the right should disagree. After all, the right tends to think the left is wrong about substantive matters, so why should I assume they are geniuses at a tactical level?

    Put another way: I recently posted on the Pew Center’s latest study of campaign coverage. In the last month, Perry got the most negative coverage. Should I assume that makes him the candidate we must all support, or should I consider that maybe the media is accurately portraying a floundering campaign?

    Karl (f8f210)

  24. Unfortunately, in today’s political universe, “going negative” also includes telling the truth about your opponent when that truth is not flattering.
    In normal discourse, that would be considered “being objective”.
    Is it any wonder that the vast middle of voters are somewhat turned-off by the antics of the political-class.
    Jefferson once said that if he had the choice of a country without government, or without the press, he would choose the former.
    Today, he would be looking for a third alternative!

    AD-RtR/OS! (dd1fff)

  25. Perry’s polling single-digits in Iowa now, he better do something if he ever wants to be president

    Reaganite Republican (c90bca)

  26. “… that if some segment of the left wants something, the right should disagree …”

    I’ve been accused of being to just right of Atilla the Hun, but on one point I agree with the Left:
    They want to tax “millionaires”; I say DO IT ‘TILL IT HURTS!
    Since the Left gets most of its’ funding from that privileged class, show its’ supporters what they are buying with their campaign contributions.
    Perhaps then they will realize the folly of their political delusions.
    I don’t have high hopes of that realization, but anything is possible.

    AD-RtR/OS! (dd1fff)

  27. Beginning at 5:15 in the linked video, Rush Limbaugh mentioned Castellanos’ prediction that Perry will go negative on Romney, but he didn’t say whether he agrees. Instead, Limbaugh (like ColonelHaiku) said the candidates should remember Obama is the real opponent. Maybe Perry agrees because he didn’t go negative in today’s interview on Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace — unless you call saying Romney’s tax plan “nibbles around the edges [of changing tax rates]” as going negative.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  28. Comment by AD-RtR/OS! — 10/30/2011 @ 10:48 am

    Jefferson once said that if he had the choice of a country without government, or without the press, he would choose the former.

    A couple of years ago, I had the thought there were real places like that.

    In other words, in the second part of the last decade, Thomas Jefferson would rather live in Lebanon than in Syria.

    Today, he would be looking for a third alternative

    I think that’s the way he felt in 1787, too.

    The actual quote is:

    …were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them.

    –Thomas Jefferson to Edward Carrington, 1787.

    And when he says without government he means without a court system or law enforcement, and without newspapers he probably didn’t mean censored papers.

    Newspapers without government might be something like Massachusetts in 1774.

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)

  29. hardly any Republicans or leaners like Perry much now, so perhaps Perry has little to lose

    Um, Karl, isn’t Perry interested in the overall Republican agenda? It isn’t all about him, I hope.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  30. This brings me to another type of thinking I’ve never understood, which is the reflexive claim that if some segment of the left wants something, the right should disagree.

    No, but it should be looked at with great skepticism. Who benefits from Republicans tearing each other down? Oh, maybe if there was a contest on the other side it would matter less, but there isn’t (and I hope there won’t be).

    The headline after a debate should NOT be: “Perry and Romney fight”. It should be “Republicans offer competing plans to get America working.”

    Frankly, any candidate that puts their interests before the common good is unappealing in the extreme. Pawlenty, and now Perry, have chosen to attack rather than to attract. One is gone and the other should follow. If Perry wants to stay in, the very first thing he needs to do is clean up his act. Doubling down isn’t in anyone’s interest.

    He’s making Ron Paul look like a grownup.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  31. Perry’s attack on Romney hiring a gardening contractor that employed illegal immigrants (which continued even after the Boston Globe wrote about it) produced the new Kinsleyan gaffe suggesting Romney only cared about the situation because he was running for office.

    This was NOT a gaffe. This was a calculated strategy, and it was Romney’s fallback position should he be forced to discuss this in detail.

    The alternatives to this gaffe was either:

    1) To say he approved of the law – and you know what that sort of thing did to Meg Whitman in California.

    2) To say that he was not legally responsible for hiring them, and had had no legal obligation to avoid having illegal immigrants work on his garden – the responsibility belonged to the lawn company. Which meant he didn’t approve of the law, or didn’t care about seeing it enforced, which is apparently not something he thinks you can say in a Republican primary.

    Romney’s first answer was a flat denial he had ever hired illegal immigrants (the form Perry had made the charge in.)

    Note Romney did not at first say the lawn company them. That might have been seen as an evasion.

    Rick Perry interrupted his answer, trying to elaborate, and Romney shut him up.

    The second time, when the lawn company had already been brought up, Romney avoided a Morton’s Fork

    The only way to say that, yes, 1) he would not countenance any violation of this law but 2) did not care about the law for its own sake, was to make sure his answer included the idea that he was concerned about this only because he was running for office.

    This made clear he either was not at all enthusiastic about this kind of discriminatory law, and/or was not a stickler for seeing all people he came in contact with obeyed every law, like say, drug use, or copyright enforcement, or not importing drugs from Canada or Mexico, which is what taking the other position would have implied. But it was good enough not to get attacked on from the right.

    Even though he had to fall back on the idea that it was only politics that caused him to want to see the law enforced, there were still two bits of damage control Romney managed:

    First, he avoided Perry getting through to the audience that this had happened twice and he had only fired the lawn company the second time this had come up. (Rick Perry interrupted again saying “after a year” but Romney shut him up again, and didn’t bother to reply to that or explain that.)

    Second he avoided any reference to the fact that he knew the owner of the lawn company very well.

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)

  32. tempest in a tea cup…

    http://youtu.be/9OyT9wP3U-Q

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  33. Gloria Allred haunts Sammy.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  34. Golria Allred is a dousche.

    Nice to know that the right and certain lefties can agree that Clinton sucked and for the same reasons.

    SarahPalin (d54602)

  35. Sorry – my Morton’s Fork link went to the Wikipedia Hobson’s Choice article.

    This is the Morton’s Fork link.

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)

  36. Why do people like Giuliani and Romney so much?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  37. Bachmann is a bigot and a racist…………..says the people who support David Duke and OWS.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  38. I would not call Bachmann a racist but she is a bigot.

    Honestly.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  39. Romney avoided a Morton’s Fork

    The colonel would never avoid a Morton’s Steak.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  40. Did anyone watch Chris Wallace today. He said that he has continued to reach out to the Romney campaign seeking an interview, but Romney’s people say Romney is not yet ready to give exclusive interviews. WTF?

    The man has been running for POTUS since January, 2007 and he not ready for indepth interviews? Is he afraid that Wallace is going to ask him about the illegal Hondurance walking all around his tony estate reported, not once, but twice in articles a year apart? Is he afraid that Wallace will ask him about the $93 million Massachusetts says it spent on health care for illegals just last year?

    retire05 (a9f846)

  41. Now playing in Iowa:

    Cain 23%

    Romney 22%

    Paul 12%

    Bachmann 8%

    Perry 7%

    Gingrich 7%

    Santorum 5%

    Huntsman 1%

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  42. WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot!

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  43. WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot?

    Didn’t you hear her want to degay homosexuals.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  44. Money ‘graph… “But the Heritage analysis implies that the boost to real GDP under Ryan’s plan would be about $500 billion relative to baseline projections.

    One interesting note: In 2018, the JDA dynamic analysis shows that corporate tax revenue under the Perry plan would be $645 billion, compared to a Heritage estimate of $411 billion. This 57% boost in corporate taxes would come despite Ryan’s higher rate. Further, Perry would allow businesses to depreciate the value of all fixed assets — not just new purchases — over five years, depressing corporate tax revenue through 2018. In 2019, the JDA analysis has the corporate tax haul jumping by nearly $300 billion to $937 billion.

    It’s probably fair to say that if you were going to choose which number-cruncher is more reliable, Heritage’s Center for Data Analysis is the safer bet.

    That’s especially the case where the macroeconomic impact of tax policy is involved, though perhaps not where the fiscal impact of pit-bull bans is involved.

    To be fair, JDA has many respectable clients, including the New York Jets and New York Yankees. In fact, it turns out that the economic model it used to calculate the impact of the Perry plan is the same one that sports teams use to justify taxpayer handouts for new stadiums.”

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  45. I think the R candidates certainly can and should be a little attacky with each other. But it needs to be done something like this:

    (Candidate A speaking)—“Any one of my esteemed Republican colleagues will be a much better president than Barack H. Obama. There is NO question of that. Still, when choosing among us you should consider that X wears mismatched socks, and Y once voted to raise the tax on tasty cupcakes. That is why I sincerely hope you will contribute to my campaign and vote for me, since I believe my approach offers the best antidote to the failed Obama experiment. That said, any one of my Republican colleagues will be a better president than Barack H. Obama. For the sake of our nation’s survival we must replace him in 2012.”

    The point is for the candidate to distinguish himself/herself forcefully yet in a reasonable manner, while speaking words that lessen the likelihood that the statement will be used later in a Obama campaign ad–and increase the likelihood that the primary losers’ supporters will not be offended and that they will go to the polls and ultimately vote for the team R. primary winner.

    Newt knows how to do this pretty effectively and the others should try to learn from him concerning this particular narrative.

    elissa (d8a277)

  46. Already played in Iowa, 2007 (per CNN poll)

    Romney 29%

    Thompson 18%

    Huckabee 12%

    Guiliani 11%

    McCain 7%

    retire05 (a9f846)

  47. Ummm, wonder if Bryan Preston thinks Romney should shut down his new (old) website that is devoted to nothing but attacking Perry?

    retire05 (a9f846)

  48. HuffPo… go, Johnson!

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  49. Col

    It was a hotair link

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  50. How long before we’re accused of wanting to impeach obama because he is black?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  51. “The second time, when the lawn company had already been brought up, Romney avoided a Morton’s Fork.”

    Sammy – I see Romney’s answer as a very free market answer. He can’t tell somebody else how to run their business. Everybody knows it’s against the law to employ illegal aliens. Romney tells the owners it’s unacceptable to violate the law on his property.

    What language do the people criticizing Romney wish he had used?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  52. ColonelHaiku has an atrophied brain from having his head up Romneys ass.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  53. “Winning!”

    – doh biden

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  54. Not nice, david letterman…

    http://youtu.be/S3ZBvolp8S4

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  55. Newt knows how to do this pretty effectively and the others should try to learn from him concerning this particular narrative.

    Comment by elissa — 10/30/2011 @ 2:28 pm

    I couldn’t agree more, elissa. Every time I’ve heard Newt mention another candidate, he prefaces it with a positive and then points out his disagreement. Even with Cain’s 9-9-9 plan, he made a point of mentioning that Cain should be given credit for attempting to tip over the apple cart and get a serious conversation going about changing the status quo.

    Another reason candidates should adopt this practice is it is a continual reminder to voters, candidates and the Dems who the enemy is and who it is who has gotten us into this quagmire, as well as a reminder that we are all on the same side, focused on the same goal and determined to beat the same opponent. After that, then the candidate should show us why their unique path to that same goal is worthy of our vote.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  56. The line I wish all the republican candidates would use when talking about the other candidates is, “I think he would make a fine Vice-President,” with a big smile.

    luagha (653f7b)

  57. The line I wish all the republican candidates would use when talking about the other candidates is, “I think he would make a fine Vice-President,” with a big smile.

    Well, except when talking about Ron Paul. Heartbeat away, etc.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  58. candidate Y you keep your stupid bloombergy hands off mah cupcakers or we’re gonna have a problem

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  59. Was Perry completely hammered during this speech?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M4gz97Y9W8&feature=player_embedded#!

    I’m not pleased with the current occupant of the White House, but I don’t need to make Obama a “wern tern president.” Awkward.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  60. wern tern president
    fo sho gonna be wern tern
    fo yeahs and trout out

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  61. unce… tice… fee tines he
    una panoona banca
    wern tern president

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  62. I read somewhere about this speech of Perry’s being strange earlier today, but had not actually seen it until you posted it, carlitos. Now having seen it, I don’t know what to say–other than it really is strange.

    elissa (d8a277)

  63. carlitos – That’s just not right.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  64. Sorry all. Just throwing it out there. I have no horse in this race yet.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  65. SF> The second time, when the lawn company had already been brought up, Romney avoided a Morton’s Fork.”

    Comment by daleyrocks — 10/30/2011 @ 3:03 pm

    Sammy – I see Romney’s answer as a very free market answer. He can’t tell somebody else how to run their business. Everybody knows it’s against the law to employ illegal aliens. Romney tells the owners it’s unacceptable to violate the law on his property.

    Wait – you’re contradicting yourself. He can’t tell somebody else how to run their business but he tells the owners it’s unacceptable to violate the law on his property. (Only on his property? Actually he didn’t tell them it’s unacceptable, just that he has to be purer than an ordinary person, so they would have to make extra special efforts in his case to avoid that situation.)

    No, what happened here was that Perry completely ignored the fact that there was a intermediate company involved. Perhaps he expected Romney to defend himself by saying he didn’t hire them personally and then it would look like an evasion. At first Romney just simply denied ever hiring an illegal immigrant in his life (even before it was made illegal?? Even before the 1986 law mandated asking questions? Well, he can say he never knowingly broke the law on this. And there is certainly no claim outstanding.)

    Romney never said it somebody else’s business and he had no right to inquire. He accepted the whole premise that he is responsible and they shouldn’t be there and didn’t argue with it. There’s no free market answer here. He could have said something like that, but he didn’t. What he said was he was for E-verify which he said Rick Perry was against (for free market reasons of course. because I think the law actually would require someone not to discriminate, and *wait* till the Social Security Department or whoever reports back, and if they said there was no match then give the employee three days to straighten this out and only then fire them. Hiring and then suddenly firing people is not the way businesses like to work. Especially if it’s temporary or short term labor but not day today labor. They could not take a guess that somebody might be illegal – that would be racial or some other kind of discrimination – and they could not ask any further questions till an actual decision had been made to hire. And if you think Congress would not enact such a crazy system then you don’t know Congress.)

    By the way I think some of the practice of companies goes like this:

    They;re no the document police. They can’t ask more questions of an applicant if there are indications he might be illegal in his biography, because it is illegal to subject some workers to more tests than others. That could constitute discrimination on he basis of race or national origins. That’s what their lawyers tell them anyway.

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)

  66. Does a of a lack of polished speaking/debate ability preclude one from being taken seriously *if* there is clearcut evidence of very competent governing and administrative leadership for several decades in the 2nd largest state?

    Dana (4eca6e)

  67. everybody has a bad day, now and then. Perry is a good man at heart.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  68. I just watched all I could take of that. WTF?

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  69. I was more annoyed at Wallace, arguing over the violin strings while Rome burned.

    http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/fox-news-sunday/2011/10/30/gov-rick-perry-rebooting-his-presidential-campaign

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  70. i could maybe see someone giving that speech at the White House Correspondents’ Dinner, but that is just hard to explain.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  71. Comment by Dana — 10/30/2011 @ 5:14 pm

    Does a of a lack of polished speaking/debate ability preclude one from being taken seriously *if* there is clearcut evidence of very competent governing and administrative leadership for several decades in the 2nd largest state?

    Nobody much outside of Texas knows that or if it is true.

    And if you are going to say his administration was and is very good, there could be a power behind the throne – somebody that’s telling him whom to appoint etc.

    Rick Perry was actually quite unpopular, so maybe there were some things not so good. He had all sorts of people running against his re-election, but somehow they all failed.

    Oh look at this from Ballotpedia: (About the 2010 election)

    Still, the GOP primary came down to a face-off between Hutchison and Perry, with the latter enjoying a consistent edge in polls.[5] Perry’s double-digit wins in polls translated into a real win on primary day, when he took 51% – enough to preclude any run-off. The third player in the primary race, Debra Medina, won just under one-fifth of the votes, enough that she may have been instrumental in guaranteeing Perry need not worry about a run-off.

    Maybe this is not as absurd as it sounds (if someone gets 51% of the vote, how does a third candidate split the opposition so that the second candidate doesn’t make the runoff?) Throwing in a third choice, even a choice that nobody picks, does affect how people pick from the other two choices.

    Oh, look here:

    http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Rick_Perry

    In 2006, Perry gained a second term with only 39 percent of the vote. While 61 percent of Texas voters opposed Perry, he won by plurality because his opposition was split four ways. Perry is the first governor since 1861 to be elected by a plurality of less than 40 percent. (There was also a similar plurality winner in 1853.)

    Oh, it was the 2006 Gubernatorial election in which Kinky Freidman and Carole Keeton Strayhorn, (the mother of both Scott McClellan, George W. Bush’s White House Press Secretary and Mark McClellan, former Medicare director and former Food and Drug Administrator) ran for Governor.

    Whatever, the record has to be more complicated than simply good, in anybody’s opinion.

    Sammy Finkelman (3a0ae4)

  72. And the judge pounds his face on the desk and throws the gavel into the air……

    and a muffled “NEXT!” is heard

    http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=9BF98DF6-86A6-4B3B-BB63-1E4E3AA9FD97

    This is why vetting at CPAC is soooo important

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  73. Sammy

    there were 3 conservatives running and one liberal – the fact that Perry beat them all while not campaigning was a masterpiece of politics

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  74. CPAC is gayer than when putin guest-starred on a very special Blossom

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  75. And just for that, Putin will kill you last, pikachu. Really, haven’t we seen this movie, before?

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  76. “And the judge pounds his face on the desk and throws the gavel into the air……”

    EPWJ – Last night regarding Rubio you said:

    “I dont mean to be ugly but he ran for the Seante because he was unemployed”

    I pointed out that you absolutely revel in rolling around in the mud. Tonight your target is Cain.

    You are a smear artist, you can’t help yourself.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  77. Sammy, 39% is a Texas landslide.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  78. Actually he does, I think I’ve made the comparison with ‘Otto’ from a ‘Fish called Wanda’ on more than one occasion,

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  79. Especially for an incumbent.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  80. Ian

    did Perry win the election? Oh – and was he relected again over a conservative democrat well funded and highly popular Mayor? did he survive a primary challenge from a Female long term also well liked Senator since that election

    Why, yes he did!

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  81. No, your attack on Rubio, your carrying water for the Alaskan establishment, on Breitbary et al,

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  82. Does a of a lack of polished speaking/debate ability preclude one from being taken seriously *if* there is clearcut evidence of very competent governing and administrative leadership for several decades in the 2nd largest state?

    What everyone will hear is “damn, doesn’t he sound just like Bush?” Just imagine Saturday Night Live and The Daily Show, where half of America gets their news.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  83. So, Politico (no link for you) is pushing an anonymous-source story that Cain was once accused of sexual harassment. Seems that this is the SOP for smearing black conservatives.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  84. “did Perry win the election?”

    EPWJ – His 40% approval ratings are deceiving.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  85. Did Romney win the election?

    Daleyrocks-Not yet but he won the elction to be my mack daddy.

    Hahahahaha I’m just joshing ya how ya doin?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  86. Ian,

    I’m not attacking Rubio, Rubio lied about his past and is saying well – gee I misspoke (hundreds of times…)

    Rubio also stole money which he only repaid after Frist brought it to the media’s attention

    Rubio billed the party for more than $100,000 during the two years he served as House speaker, according to credit card statements obtained by the St. Petersburg Times and Miami Herald. The charges included repairs to the family minivan, grocery bills, plane tickets for his wife and purchases from retailers ranging from a wine store near his home to Apple’s online store. Rubio also charged the party for dozens of meals during the annual lawmaking session in Tallahassee, even though he received taxpayer subsidies for his meals.

    http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/national/us-attorney-irs-and-fbi-investigating-florida-gop-credit-card-use/1088979

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  87. That was all bullsh*t, Johnson. That patsy Charlie Crist was behind all of it.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  88. Dude Eric how willing are you to whore yourself out Charlie Crist?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  89. Jim Greer, the former party chief is on trial, for this level of missapropriation of funds, something in the neighborhood of 2-3 million in party dues, if memory serves.

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  90. leave it to johnson
    heinous propaganda dump
    hook, line and stinker

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  91. As party chief he was responsible for the disbursements

    http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/article1189829.ece

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  92. They way I see, it, Romney is a ridiculous candidate. It’s hilarious that anyone would even pretend he’s conservative, or has principles, given the flip flops and spending and gun grabbing and abortion support/opposition. The guy is too obviously fake in every possible way.

    so if Perry or Cain or Gingrich can’t rally enough support to beat Romney, we’re screwed as a political party anyway. It shouldn’t be very difficult. It’s alarming that Perry hasn’t been able to do it yet, but his campaign is gearing up and probably will perform much better than polls indicate. Newt has been a rockstar lately. I don’t find Cain to be serious. The guy hasn’t bothered to look into basic foreign policy issues before running for President, in a post 9/11 world, which I find a bit annoying.

    But anyhow, any Republican who can’t beat Obamacare inspiring and Ted Kennedy conspiring Romney doesn’t deserve the nomination. Free healthcare for illegals Romney? You’ve got to be kidding.

    No use getting too worried about it. It’s too early for most voters to even worry about this. Look at the polls for 2007. Romney was winning, and he obviously got his ass kicked, despite having a huge endorsement and money advantage.

    I mean, the anemic John Mccain was able to beat Romney. I think either Newt or Perry will have similar success.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  93. btw, I like Rubio, but it’s annoying to see people insist the guy is sinless just because he’s a very popular politician. That’s democrat thinking.

    Rubio is just another politician. A great one, and I am optimistic about him, but if you’re going to defend him, do it with some kind of argument other than ‘gee, I love him so much’.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  94. No, you don’t make it to the Senate by age 38, without cutting a few corners, ask Nixon about that,
    but this latest attack, was upon one’s identity, and you have to see how toxic that can be.

    narciso (0fc95f)

  95. Dustin,
    rubio has yet to do anything, other than promote himself, I get an erie feeling when newbies are given accolades when they haven’ even submitted a bill yet

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  96. ian,

    Rubios a crook, he stole funds and only repaid it when caught.

    Thats the sum of it

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  97. No use getting too worried about it. It’s too early for most voters to even worry about this.

    I’m actually hoping for a convention floor fight. I want to see 3 or 4 ballots and people getting invested.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  98. “rubio has yet to do anything, other than promote himself”

    EPWJ – He won a few elections. That counts.

    Any update on your April 2010 investigation story? If the IRS found something on Rubio shouldn’t it have come out by now?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  99. “Rubios a crook, he stole funds and only repaid it when caught.”

    EPWJ – If you have proof he’s a crook, you have a duty to report him to the authorities. Do it now. That is the EPWJ standard.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  100. This is why I laugh.

    There are these grouchy folks, who always seem to be commenting in anger. They are very worried about who is on their side. Like T Paw when he was bought… suddenly he was under protection now. Or Rubio, when some alleged (Without any really solid basis, btw) that his people had something to do with primary dates being moved to romney. Suddenly, a Huckabee guy is beloved by Romney’s weird little cult of personality.

    huckabee and Romney are peas in a pod, and the punchline this entire mess is leading up to is Romney’s fans actually defending Huckabee. And not just defense, but that ugly weird defense that is made entirely of personal attacks, lacking even a hint of a principled point (though can you blame Romney’s fans for not being clear on any principle beyond winning?)

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  101. Epwj should be ashamed of pushing that smear. Shockingly, he is not.

    JD (318f81)

  102. Anyone defending Liza Murkowski has no leg to stand on when comnplaining about crookery.

    EPWJ will repeat any lie to further his guy Perry. It’s appalling but the ultra-perrycudas will do that.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  103. Ugh… Geraldo.

    But yeah, Cain’s campaign has to plainly deny crap like that. (it is crap, though, IMO, to bring up something from 22 years ago without some kind of real evidence).

    But that kind of nastiness is a common tactic. We saw Perry get hit with that full page ad. I don’t know of anything about Romney suggesting he isn’t wholesome (I personally assume he is), but that won’t prevent him from being so accused if he’s successful in politics.

    You have to be prepared for those attacks.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  104. Just to be clear, I’m not saying JD Gordon’s response is evidence against Cain. I am saying it’s evidence of the campaign being unprepared for typical sleazy BS.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  105. Unsourced allegations compared to using an intern as a human humidor, or actually having an affair with Rielle, oe driving a car off a bridge while drunk and leaving a girl to drown ….

    JD (318f81)

  106. The Romney campaign has informal cooperation agreements with every other candidate or former candidate except Rick Perry. You read it here at Patterico’s Pontifications.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  107. Another high tech lynching of a conservative black man. Leaving the plantation has it’s consequences.

    JD (318f81)

  108. Unsourced allegations compared to using an intern as a human humidor, or actually having an affair with Rielle, oe driving a car off a bridge while drunk and leaving a girl to drown ….

    Comment by JD

    LOL

    It is absolutely amazing to consider the immense difference in burdens of proof. For many years, democrats actively denied live victims regarding Clinton. They slandered Monica as a crazy stalker. It took iron clad proof, and even then, they only admitted the absolute minimum proven. If someone said they thought Clinton was having sex with or sexually harassing employees, based on the lies we’ve seen, they would be kicked off the set.

    But for Cain, there is some unsourced allegation from decades ago… I wonder if all they have is a payout to a person with no clue as to what the issue was. I wonder if they already know it’s untrue.

    This is no different from Mccain’s lobbyist affair that turned out to be completely fabricated. It’s front page NYT news, despite being a fiction.

    It’s completely unfair that Republicans need to be prepared for it, but in my opinion, every Republican needs to have some plans ready for when they are accused of something sexual. JD Gordon sounds like a man who wants people to weigh the non-existent evidence and honestly wait out a sane process. I don’t think that’s realistic for GOP candidates.

    I bet Romney’s people have a folder prepared with responses to sex accusations, and I bet Romney has never done anything justifying such an accusation.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  109. Politico, they were the ones that got the wardrobe story, wrong, that trumpeted the complaints of the former O’Donnell employees that ended up being bupkis, in the end, Did they go after John Edwards, rhetorical question, Martin isn’t officially one of
    the members of the Journolist, but he works with those who are.

    [note: fished from spam filter. –Stashiu]

    narciso (0fc95f)

  110. The Romney campaign has informal cooperation agreements with every other candidate or former candidate except Rick Perry. You read it here at Patterico’s Pontifications.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 10/30/2011 @ 8:42 pm

    No, this isn’t the case. For some, it’s a pretty formal arrangement. The weird campaign leaders will note that some candidate ‘is our friend now, so yeah, we’re giving him hundreds of thousands of dollars’.

    Does Romney work very hard to line up as many allies as possible in the party? Of course. Is there no way to deny this other than lame personal attacks that avoid the substance? Apparently.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  111. The sources are onfirming that they have the settlement papers from at least two women and are getting more

    Cains spokesperson didnt deny it a few minutes ago on Fox News – just decried how unfair it was

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  112. OHOES! A nuisance settlement to make a sexual harassment suit over a non-sexual gesture go away, from over 20 years ago. You disgust me, epwj.

    JD (318f81)

  113. The sources are onfirming that they have the settlement papers from at least two women and are getting more

    What are the source names?

    I could just say I have sources with settlement papers from all the aliens George Bush traumatized with his weather controlling machine?

    Cain’s spokesperson wasn’t there 22 years ago. His inability to deny something probably just means he’s trying to be honest about something that is so vague it’s impossible for a normally interacting person to deny in that situation. We don’t really know much to deny.

    But in politics today, these guys have to be prepared for this crap.

    Also, a settlement probably means nothing. Employment settlements happen all the time. I would be very surprised if a CEO’s firm never settled a case over a period of years. Most people can be discussed in a way that makes them sound pretty sleazy.

    Read that NYT article, and at first glance, it seems that Mccain was doing something with that lobbyist.

    This kind of crap never happens with the Vera Bakers and Barack Obamas.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  114. OHOES! A nuisance settlement to make a sexual harassment suit over a non-sexual gesture go away, from over 20 years ago. You disgust me, epwj.

    Comment by JD — 10/30/2011 @ 8:50 pm

    This sounds more likely to me than most other explanations.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  115. Five figure range?! That means it was 4 figures. This is the smears and lynching that epwj traffics in. Like accusing Rubio of felonies.

    JD (318f81)

  116. doh

    Did you listen to Cains spokesperson? Is it wrong to link a credible news site that interviewed they guy

    thats smearing? Linking?

    Really? Its my fault Cain has these problems?

    Put the saffron scented cupcakes down and go to bed – sleep it off – do you guys ACTUALLY look at what you type – man I’m so embarassed for you – i hope no one you know actually reads what you guys spout

    We dont want a president who has problems – fi there is nothing NOTHING to these allegations then JAIL sentences to those who spread these rumors need to be handed out.

    But after cains spokes person and cain himself not haveing I never had sex moment – thats enough for me – and who gives a flying flip what a democrat did? what a lame lame lame argument, so everyone gets a pass on sexual harassment?

    great, just great – nice logic there sharp edges guy – hint – in your personal life i wouldnt share that philosophy with anyone close to you

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  117. Doh

    most of that is not directed at you

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  118. I am going to go back to not commenting as much. Idiocy like epwj is troubling, and drowns out ratinal discussion. I would not cross the street to pee on your head if it was on fire, epwj.

    JD (318f81)

  119. EPWJ,

    I think you’re overstating this Cain thing.

    I am not seeing the links laying out what he’s even accused of doing.

    Sexual harassment is a very broad category of comment. The banter I had with my church brethren this morning could be exaggerated to sexual harassment.

    what a lame lame lame argument, so everyone gets a pass on sexual harassment?

    The argument is not that it’s no big deal if Cain is a perv or an abuser. The argument is that it’s unfair to hold something against Cain with scant evidence, because we have no idea if he did anything wrong, and the argument is that it’s appalling how the deck is stacked on a partisan basis.

    I don’t see anything about Cain that justifies believing this kind of accusation.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  120. Spin spin spin

    I’m not peddling anything, just linking

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  121. Is this sexual harassment?

    EPWJ, the way these accusations are being presented suggests to me that they are very weak.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  122. There were also descriptions of physical gestures that were not overtly sexual but that made women who experienced or witnessed them uncomfortable and that they regarded as improper in a professional relationship.

    You traffic in innuendo and smears, epwj

    /spit

    JD (318f81)

  123. Dustin

    Apparently several women came forward before and now the information since Cain is now a national figure – its being presented –

    We will find out tomorrow, a firestorm has been lit – Cains not making it any better by saying its typical?

    I knw people are shocked and dissapointed and stunned in the next day or two this will be fully developed or officially debunked – either way – its going to damage someone

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  124. Gestures like this, and this wasn’t the first time:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DygBj4Zw6No

    narciso (0fc95f)

  125. Sadly epwj, this episode cannot damage your reputation, or relationship with honesty, any more than your prior actions have already done.

    JD (318f81)

  126. Rick Perry demonstrated again today he should be elected douchebag of the year, not president.

    Him flashing his IRS tax postcard form upside-down on Fox News Sunday was funny. He showed it again, but he showed the back. (It’s like the My Pet Goat hoax, but this is real.) With the constant stream of speaking and showmanship errors, nobody wants to see this guy on TV daily for 4 presidential years.

    Wesson (f71878)

  127. I knw people are shocked and dissapointed and stunned in the next day or two this will be fully developed or officially debunked – either way – its going to damage someone

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 10/30/2011 @ 9:08 pm

    As I said about Rubio, I don’t want to defend any of these politicians just because they are on my side. Let the chips fall where they may. If this develops into something, so be it.

    So far… nothing about these accusations impresses me. They are exactly how BS and weak crap would be sold, just because a conservative threatens the wrong people.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  128. JD

    Call Fox News – did you listen to Cain and his spokesman – I dont remember hearing a denial – you need to use your sharp edges with them – they are promoting the story by giving it legs

    Actually if you read the whole article they interviewed alot of people who defended cain, except they – Politico – claims to have the settlement papers

    but I can see you are going to twist this and say I smeared Cain – no I didnt – but you and the truth were never close

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  129. Spin spin spin

    I hate Cain because he reminds me of Sarah Palin.

    So let me get this straight it is racist to criticize Obama even if your black?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  130. dustin

    When people leave a job, and are given 5 figure settlements, and they say they have the settlement papers – if all this is true and its more than one, we will see but if all this is true, it’s lights out, if its not true then Politico is over and they should be

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  131. Why would they deny that someone made allegations, you imbecile? Clearly someone did, and they got a four figure settlement for a non sexual physical gesture that they may have witnessed. Eek.Egads.

    JD (318f81)

  132. I apologize for questioning the drooling idiot epwj. Allowing his idiocy to go unchallenged bothers me, but it always goes way off the rails. He is comfortable lying and smearing and using innuendo as well as simply made up crap to smear those he disagrees with. It disgusts me. Again, my apologies to everyone that does not go by the name epwj.

    JD (318f81)

  133. doh

    I dont hate Sarah Palin, never did, I dont hate Rubio, nor Cain, i dont hate Romney.

    Claiming hate doesn’t erase facts, if Politico made this up – its going to go very very badly for them – and it should

    I never supported Crist. i would have voted for Rubio over Charlie any day, but Florida wont let me vote – six trips to disney world doesnt convey residency :)

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  134. Him flashing his IRS tax postcard form upside-down on Fox News Sunday was funny. He showed it again, but he showed the back. (It’s like the My Pet Goat hoax, but this is real.) With the constant stream of speaking and showmanship errors, nobody wants to see this guy on TV daily for 4 presidential years.

    Comment by Wesson — 10/30/2011 @ 9:11 pm

    His presentation is often weak. I don’t see how that makes him a douchebag, and I think he’s been strong in many interviews.

    I don’t really give a crap what he looks like on TV, but that doesn’t mean your point isn’t valid. It just doesn’t matter to me. I’m the kind of guy who would vote for George Washington and Abraham Lincoln today, even after they were crushed on TV style 30 second debates (And I am confident they would be).

    Not that Perry is George Washington, but he is someone with a history of making the right call 95% of the time, over a long period of time as executive over a huge government.

    It’s sad to me that a guy with such a strong record is falling on his ass because of how he comes across on TV.

    I’m not saying your point is not legit. It’s totally valid these days to worry about the vapid way Americans chose their leaders, case in point, Obama.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  135. I hate Cain because he reminds me of Sarah Palin

    is what EricPWjohnson means.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  136. Cain has released a statement

    didnt deny the claims outright just saying he doesnt know who it is? (which isnt the most ideal way to handle something like this – and then was given the name of one woman and he went silent and glared)

    And the printing presses are whirling..

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  137. doh

    You can say it all you want – I dont hate Palin, just pointed out her record – okay thats a hate crime I know – Cain isnt denying it – its been hours now

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  138. given the name of one woman and he went silent and glared

    Meaning he realized who specifically was doing something sleazy and underhanded to him, probably for the second time.

    Of course it pisses him off.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  139. “I’m not peddling anything, just linking”

    No, you’re just peddling your links.

    Hey, that spokesman did not deny it, so Cain must be guilty! Impeccable logic 101.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  140. Dustin – could you explain why the smear merchant thinks it is relevant that the existence of the allegations has not been denied, or why they would be denied? Those 4 figure settlements are proof that Cain is evil.

    JD (318f81)

  141. JD

    eeryone knows you are a sharp edged guy – who constantly pleads his case without facts

    And that I was spreading smears? dude its going to be on the FRONT PAGE OF EVERY PAPER TOMORROW ARE YOU REALLY that – no wait you are really – no lets not call names here – it obvious to everyone

    My not mentioning it is not going to lessen the impact of Cain’s having to deal with this and already screwed it up twice in one evening

    Not my fault – but whine while you can – gosh I never ever saw a grown man whine so much on the internet – geez, get some self respect

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  142. Rubio was between jobs before running for office?

    BURN HIM!!!!!!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  143. Paging Anita Hill

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  144. Dustin – could you explain why the smear merchant thinks it is relevant that the existence of the allegations has not been denied, or why they would be denied? Those 4 figure settlements are proof that Cain is evil.

    Comment by JD — 10/30/2011 @ 9:37 pm

    It is amusing how they set these things up. ‘These allegations are BS’ ‘Can you deny being accused, though?’. ‘Erm, no?’

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  145. “You can say it all you want – I dont hate Palin”

    EPWJ – You like racists? You are on record here calling Palin a racist.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  146. “It is amusing how they set these things up. ‘These allegations are BS’ ‘Can you deny being accused, though?’. ‘Erm, no?’”

    When did you stop beating your wife?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  147. I mean, the skillset needed to be able to navigate these stupid and unfair ways things are discussed on TV these days is considerable… and completely unrelated (or often even contrary!) to principled leadership.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  148. “I am not going to comment on that,” he told Politico when asked specifically about one of the woman’s claims.

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  149. Because Palin didn’t play her dominatrix mindgames on Tom Tancredo or something.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  150. in one case, what the publication said was a review of documentation that described the allegations and the resolution.

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  151. He is not pimping the smears. Just putting it out there.

    JD (318f81)

  152. dustin

    All he had to say is – It absolutely didnt happen, never happened, this is the poitical season and anything goes –

    He said the last half – I mean the guy was a CEO a seasoned government administrator and the head of a lobbying firm a large one – andhe knows darn well what he can say and can’t say and if he isnt saying it didnt happen – then….. what?

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  153. “He is not pimping the smears. Just putting it out there.”

    JD – 9/11 Truthers are just asking questions.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  154. Pimping 18 month old stories about Rubio investigations with no follow-up. Just putting it out there again.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  155. JD

    and the whinning just keeps on.. I’m embarassed for you

    Not my fault – I didnt write the article – if you want to not ak questions of someone who has the future of your children in his hands for the next 8 years – then allright

    I see we cannot question or demand answers of people who want to direct our country – we cant – JD doesnt allow it, its not right..

    If this is false – made up – then politico needs to go away forever no problem – if its not and its ambigious then Cain needs to be upfront and keep on going – but if there is something else then its over

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  156. Apparently, EPWJ thinks that the Cain campaign should LIE and deny that there are settlement papers.

    Icy (46927e)

  157. Towards the end the article quotes several people as saying that Cain treated women at work exactly as he treated men. I wonder whether that’s precisely what these alleged incidents were about – that he spoke to some woman in the same way he would have spoken had she been a man, and she was one of those women who only pretend to want to be treated equally with men, when what they really want is to eat their cake and have it too.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  158. 28., 31. Ya know this Sammy has got some depth beneath the nuance.

    I agree with Karl, don’t slap the helpless in your neighborhood around, go after the greasers from across town. Like that needs splainin’.

    All politics is local and the foreigners winning, regardless of their colors, mean you and yours take it in the ass, the wallet.

    Romney’s trickle down economics is no better for the pizza guy down the block than Urkel’s. The shop owner’s window of survival is too short for either savior.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  159. Milhouse, that’s interesting.

    Cain may not be a career politician, but he’s been a prominent man for a long time.

    If his reputation is for treating women and men the same, I can easily see a certain type of person being offended by conduct that is benign.

    In my opinion, someone who sues their employer should have a reason why they can’t just quit. The action should be criminal or truly outrageous. Off color jokes, or aloof Michael Scott style clumsiness ain’t it.

    Why isn’t the lede a specific play by play of what Cain did to his victims? My guess is because there’s no scandal.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  160. Rick Perry’s problem has been Rick Perry. He didn’t lose the first-place polling numbers he had when he first entered the race because Cain stripped that support away; he lost those numbers because he performed so poorly, especially in the first several debates, that those supporters defected.

    If he got them back, he’d again be the front-runner. He’s not going to get them back, though, by attacking other candidates. He has to up his game — not just a little, but by at least an order of magnitude. Perry’s problems aren’t his positions or his record when either are fairly characterized; rather, Perry’s problem that he’s made an extremely powerful, and extremely negative, first impression on most of the country, coming across as not very bright, helplessly inarticulate, and provincial. That’s not at all how he’s run in any of his statewide elections in Texas, which makes his current wrong-footedness puzzling but doesn’t do him a damn bit of good in this race, given where he stands now.

    I doubt he’s up to the level of improvement that would be required to overcome the damage already done. I doubt anyone could climb out of that hole as quickly as he’d need to. I watched his Fox News Sunday performance this morning and was underwhelmed, again. He should be glad there are still many weeks before people actually start voting — but it’s no longer many months, and he hasn’t even turned the necessary corner yet.

    Deeply conservative voters don’t need to look very hard to find reasons to abandon Romney or Cain, and the rest of the field are non-serious candidates. Going exclusively or even mostly negative now would be a huge strategic mistake IMHO.

    Beldar (d2f94c)

  161. truth be told after
    much perry fookuppery
    there is no there there.

    ColonelHaiku (fbf87d)

  162. Anything at Politico about a Republican with Maggie Haberman’s name on the byline is either a lie, and evil spin, or a Democrat talking point. But I repeat myself.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  163. Very well argued, Beldar.

    Yes, it’s not like Perry should be hard pressed to show that Romney and Cain are not optimal for conservatives, to say the least. The problem is that Perry is not showing that he is optimal either.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  164. Beldar:

    He’s not going to get them back, though, by attacking other candidates.

    I agree that Perry’s not going to get his support back by publicly attacking other candidates but that doesn’t mean his campaign might not leak damaging info on other candidates. Frankly, I assume they all do it. It’s part of national politics.

    Of course, I have no idea who leaked the story to Politico or if there even was a leak. All I know is that the leak hurts Cain and benefits everyone else, including Obama and Politico.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  165. My jaw dropped when I read the latest Rassmussen poll that shows Perry leading Obama 46% to 42% — in Wisconsin!?! If it’s an early indicator, perhaps Perry’s turning the corner now. I put little faith in such polling in the best of circumstances, however. And of course, to face Obama, Perry would first have to get the GOP nomination.

    This poll could perhaps be read just as an early indication that Obama is in huge trouble. But if that were true, you’d expect Romney or Huntsman, as the most centrist Republicans —especially in the perception of defecting Dem voters — to have done better in hypothetical match-ups against Obama. You’d expect Perry — who’s probably only behind Michelle Bachmann, and roughly tied with Rick Santorum, as being anathema to the typical Democrat — to benefit the least from Obama defections. But Perry did better than the other GOP candidates in a very purple state.

    Beldar (d2f94c)


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