Patterico's Pontifications

10/18/2011

This is a CNN debate thread

Filed under: 2012 Election — Karl @ 4:09 pm

[Posted by Karl]

So, um, yeah… another gathering of GOP hopefuls.  Presumably, CNN will skip the infamous “this or that” segment this time.  Rick Perry may be more pushy.  The surging Herman Cain may get more scrutiny, or be asked to sing.

While you wait on pins and needles, take a look at Roger Ebert’s compilation of J-school students’ mock stories about the last debate.  Old and Busted: biased journos. The New Hotness? Illiterate journos!

–Karl

539 Responses to “This is a CNN debate thread”

  1. Ding!

    Karl (537cef)

  2. I thought Cain was going to hit Romney hard last time. My guess is they have an informal truce.

    Romney will probably also be rather mild to everyone but Perry.

    Perry did OK in the last debate. Nothing spectacular, but much better than the other debates. Scoring punches is very important. Unfortunately, that really is how these debates work.

    Right now I’m watching these debates trying to pick either Cain or Perry. Perry needs to show me he can win. Cain needs to assure me he’s really in this to win, which means taking on Romney.

    I suspect I will also be greatly interested in Newt. I’m hoping he or Ryan are the VP.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  3. Nothing spectacular, but much better than the other debates.

    No where to go but up, but I haven’t seen anyone else confirm that “much better” grade.

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  4. someone tell me what happens…. i’ll be sorting my socks.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  5. No where to go but up, but I haven’t seen anyone else confirm that “much better” grade.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/18/2011 @ 4:25 pm

    I agree that the bar is probably a lot lower for Perry now. In my opinion, Perry delivered a lackluster but improved performance in the last debate. In fact, I seem to recall you saying something approximately like that.

    Perry, in a major improvement over previous debates, had only minor stumbles—but then, he also scored no points.

    (Howard Kurtz)

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  6. someone tell me what happens…. i’ll be sorting my socks.

    Comment by redc1c4 — 10/18/2011 @ 4:26 pm

    I’ll be dipping my Mitt Romney voodoo dolls in a bathtub full of boiling Gardasil.

    Because I’m a patriot.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  7. HANOVER, NH — It would be an understatement to say that Texas Gov. Rick Perry’s top aides are unhappy with press reports casting Tuesday night’s Republican debate as a make-or-break moment for the Texas governor. “You really don’t want to know what I think about that speculation,” top strategist David Carney told reporters after the debate. “It’s like some of your colleagues want to declare the race [over] at this moment.”

    Carney’s frustration was understandable. After two consecutive weak debate performances, Perry was under considerable pressure to do well on Tuesday. He didn’t. In fact, Perry was so underwhelming that the candidate himself began explaining away his performance just moments after the debate ended. “Debates are not my strong suit,” he told a friendly crowd at a Dartmouth fraternity house not far from the debate hall.”

    http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/article/after-another-bad-debate-rick-perry-finished

    Watching Rick Perry’s debate performance Tuesday night, Decoder (along with many observers in the press) was struck by how itching-to-get-out-of-there uncomfortable he looked. It was like watching someone’s half-hearted attempt to engage in polite conversation at a dinner party he was only attending as a favor to his wife.

    Which has led us today to this fundamental question: Does Rick Perry really want to be president? Or, more specifically, might the Texas governor regret his decision to jump into the race?

    http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oGdUneC55O2HAAli5XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0ajZyNWI3BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA1FJMDMzXzE5Mw–/SIG=13vuufq2u/EXP=1319009374/**http%3a//www.csmonitor.com/USA/Elections/From-the-Wires/2011/1013/Does-Rick-Perry-really-want-to-be-president

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  8. I think I’ve missed the last two already

    I’m kind of waiting for them to vote Huntsman Santorum Bachmann off the stage

    what a waste of my time to make me listen to these nobodies

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  9. “In tonight’s CNN debate, Governor Rick Perry has a simple message to deliver. It can be done with a gracious nod towards the efforts of others on the stage to move the campaign forward and to introduce crucial ideas.

    But the reality of the campaign is that Herman Cain cannot sustain his surge, and even if Rick Santorum mounts one in Iowa, the math is becoming increasingly unlikely that he could raise the cash to compete down the road.

    “Its Mitt or me,” the Texas governor should declare, and focus the choice where it really exists. The current governor might even want to challenge the former governor to a one-on-one debate, or a home-and-away series in Boston and Austin.

    This doesn’t involve slashing attacks on the former Massachusetts governor like those Byron York notes President Obama is unleashing on the likely GOP nominee, just a plain spoken truth about where the race is and where it is headed.”

    http://www.hughhewitt.com/blog/g/289c1885-c953-49a1-8d05-355cea161d52

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  10. Don’t know that I’d trust a liberal think-tank for an unbiased analysis, but interesting, nonetheless…

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/280540/brookings-9-9-9-would-raise-taxes-most-americans-poor-hardest-hit-daniel-foster

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  11. Again, I know no one wants to believe the debates don’t matter all that much, but let me try this another way.

    Is Perry’s problem his debate performances? Or is Perry’s problem his positions? Some conservatives don’t like him on crony capitalism/vaccines and the TX Dream Act. Seniors don’t like him on entitlements.

    The debates exposed that Perry wasn’t ready to defend himself on those issues, and ended up doing so in some cases in ways that offended people. But his lack of prep would have become apparent, even without debates.

    BTW, Perry is ahead of Cain on Intrade, which suggests to me what people now think Cain will fade and Perry will benefit. The bettors could be wrong of course, but the wisdom of crowds, etc. Plus, Perry remains the only NotRomney with a warchest.

    Karl (37b303)

  12. Col.,

    The 9-9-9 plan’s reliance on sales tax is regressive. Pretty sure Camp Cain has acknowledged this and proposed the inequity will be fixed with some sort of rebate. The FairTax had the same issues. Of course, once you start adding in the rebate check on the back end, the simple plan ends up lookin’… less simple.

    Karl (37b303)

  13. Col.,

    Q: Do or die for Rick Perry?

    A: He has $15 million on hand. He’s not dropping out anytime soon.

    Karl (37b303)

  14. Hi Mr. Governor Daniels it’s me happyfeet

    first of all you suck ass for not running, and if I knew which car was yours I would key it all the way down the side your lame wife sits on when you go out to Hometown Buffet for some tasty all-you-can-eat foozle and a tasty soft-serve cone

    but also I would like to ask you to please talk to Mr. Governor Perry and see if you can offer him some pointers about honing a message. I don’t think I’m asking a whole lot really. Just a phone call.

    ok thank you Mr. Governor Daniels but if you think about it it’s the least you can do really

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  15. Karl,

    Nein Nein Nein is going to reign tonight

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  16. EPWJ,

    Entirely possible.

    Karl (37b303)

  17. A: He has $15 million on hand. He’s not dropping out anytime soon.

    Comment by Karl

    That would buy an awful lot of those “smart” drugs… who knows?

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  18. I do think the media framing of Perry is interesting, whether it comes from ideology, the mere desire to inject some sort of drama into these events, or its extreme valuation of telegenics (but mostly the first).

    The media narrative is never “It’s been months since Romney hit 30% in a national poll and can’t seem to break out anywhere besides the Northeast… Is it do or die for Romney?” The narrative is never “Mitt Romney spent all these millions and gives these slick debate performances, but his poll numbers never move… will Romney say something tonight to light a fire under his stagnant campaign?”

    Karl (37b303)

  19. Those intros could’ve used Spanish Flea: http://youtu.be/8iDCPCfh_kw

    Karl (37b303)

  20. Nein thats how many pts Cain lost already

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  21. Perry scares the MSM a lot more than Romney does.

    Do any of us doubt that the democrats running these debates wouldn’t vote Romney or Huntsman?

    Of course, that’s not much of an indictment of Romney, since one argument in his favor is that he’s more centrist and therefore more electable.

    Karl’s point that it’s Perry’s positions rather than his debate skill makes sense to me, but Perry definitely did himself great damage with that ‘heartless’ comment. I admire that he’s actually defending unpopular views, but it appears that is not nearly as good a tactic as having no record or even rejecting one’s own former views.

    Folks look for different things in these candidates. My guess is that Perry actually needs to play into the drama. Create fights with Romney on major policy issues, much as Mccain did in 2008 with Romney’s foreign policy missteps (what did Romney mean by timetable to leave Iraq? Did Romney show leadership on the surge? etc etc).

    Mccain understood the MSM’s need to see Republicans attack eachother. All too well, actually.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  22. Dustin,

    Agree re “heatless” gaffe, but who’s to say he wouldn’t have made it in some voter forum instead? That’s my point — debates are just one forum where candidates say dumb stuff.

    Karl (37b303)

  23. Hey Hey goood bye, naah naah naah naaah, naaah naaah naaaah nah hye hey good bye

    Cain

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  24. This is what always happens to Unelected Businessguy With a Tax Plan.

    Karl (37b303)

  25. Perry scares the MSM a lot more than Romney does.

    fright confused with disbelief at the level of ineptitude, maybe.

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  26. Agree re “heatless” gaffe, but who’s to say he wouldn’t have made it in some voter forum instead? That’s my point — debates are just one forum where candidates say dumb stuff.

    Comment by Karl — 10/18/2011 @ 5:19 pm

    That’s fair.

    fright confused with disbelief at the level of ineptitude, maybe.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/18/2011 @ 5:22 pm

    I don’t think anyone seriously believes that Perry was so successful as a fiscal conservative and leader of a huge government with so many huge agencies because he was inept.

    They are afraid because they know Perry really means it when he complains about social security and currency printing. They know he’s not just another clever game player manipulating the crowd, but that he actually means to lead us to a balanced budget, with all the enormous changes that means.

    Romney was electable by MA, the exact same voting pool that gave us John Kerry and Ted Kennedy, and that’s because he is simply palatable to that audience in a way Perry isn’t. That’s both a plus and a minus.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  27. First question to Mr. Santorum, why are you here?

    If you can’t poll higher than the margin of error, you don’t belong.

    bskb (86201d)

  28. Oooh Romney had to say Perry was right….

    That had to hurt

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  29. Perry more animated, but not not going after Romney. Yet.

    Karl (37b303)

  30. Income mobility? WTF is that?

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  31. Good for him Santorum – to stop the lying Romney

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  32. Santorum’s little “you’re out of time” bit was one of the most petulant and childish things I’ve seen in these debates. Shameful.

    bskb (86201d)

  33. Romney smacked down

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  34. EPWJ,

    “Income mobility” refers to fact that in America the poor can get wealthy, and vice versa. All the talk about the top x% or botton x% leaves it out.

    Karl (37b303)

  35. This circular firing squad thing is terrible. Even Newt is joining in on the act.

    bskb (86201d)

  36. Santorum will not be willing Mr Congeniality, ‘eh?

    They should allow the politicians a chance or two to go on for a few minutes if they really need to.

    But they should find this time by having the brainpower to limit the debate to Newt, Cain, Obama, and Perry.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  37. No Santorum was stopping Romney from filibustering and lying, this was the problem with huckabee, he overtalked all the debates, he lied and lied and lied

    Romney just admitted making a mandate

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  38. So far debate has focused on 9-9-9 and RomneyCare. You know who that doesn’t benefit?

    Karl (37b303)

  39. It seems to me that perhaps Newt is trying to help Perry to some extent. Just a gut reaction.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  40. Karl

    As someone who unfortunately has managed european companies in England France, Italy and Germania I can tell you when they(govt, Europa) sit down and discuss income mobility with me and my staff – it has a whole different meaning – especially in Italy.

    My bosses were never too pleased with my explanations of what again income mobility meant this month

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  41. Santorum quotes Deval Patrick?

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  42. Dustin,

    Newt is trying to help Newt. At Romney’s expense. But he got punked on the mandate.

    Karl (37b303)

  43. Newt is trying to help Newt. At Romney’s expense. But he got punked on the mandate.

    Comment by Karl — 10/18/2011 @ 5:38 pm

    Yeah, they both took damage.

    But hey, it’s something that has needed to be discussed for some time.

    I can’t tell, because I’m quite biased, but I feel pretty pleased with Perry’s performance level.

    Now, of course, is when Karl’s ‘it doesn’t matter anyway’ theory is proven, given my luck.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  44. JEEEZ, Perry just hit Romney.

    JEEEEEEEZ

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  45. Perry now has a coherent explanation re health ins.

    Karl (37b303)

  46. This is ugly.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  47. Am I mistaken, or did Romney’s law enforcement against illegals happen in the final few days of Romney’s term, and never actually went into effect?

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  48. Now this slugging is what folks want to see.

    Karl (37b303)

  49. Romney is clearly flipping out.

    The crowd loves Romney, though.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  50. See, if you accuse Perry of wanting kill Granny, he may later note you hired illegals.

    Reaping. Sowing.

    Mitt is begging to speak. Wish he would say something.

    Karl (37b303)

  51. This is depressing. The only adults on the stage are Cain and Paul. And with 9/9/9 Cain will get pounded for the bad idea of a antional sales tax.

    Perry and Romney are embarrassments.

    Bugg (ea1809)

  52. Cain gets it back on track. Thankfully.

    bskb (86201d)

  53. Mitt is begging to speak. Wish he would say something.

    Comment by Karl — 10/18/2011 @ 5:44 pm

    That was pretty interesting. He wanted to defend himself from the charge he employed that lawn company after knowing they were employing illegals, but then he says goobledeegook about immigration generally.

    He did then attack the charge as originating from an op ed. Not sure why that matters.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  54. Mitts trying to intimidate Perry – big mistake

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  55. Perry accuses Romney of hiring illegal immigrant gardeners. Too funny.

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  56. Love seeing Bugg and folks on Twitter upset at the level of debate. Guessing same folks dumped on Perry’s mellow take last time.

    Karl (37b303)

  57. Perry accuses Romney of hiring illegal immigrant gardeners. Too funny.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/18/2011 @ 5:47 pm

    It’s true.

    A year after Romney was shown he employed illegals, he still had that same company and illegals working for him.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  58. Perry rewards illegal immigration with in-state tuition and he’s talking about lawn maintenance?

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  59. Not a fan of Politifact, but they have a backgrounder on Romney hiring illegals:

    http://t.co/Ail0KISe

    Karl (37b303)

  60. Cain gets it back on track. Thankfully.

    Comment by bskb — 10/18/2011 @ 5:46 pm

    I feel that, man.

    But the fact is, Perry has to play this lame game. a certain way. He spent the first two debates (at least) being hit repeatedly, much of it pretty unfair, some not unfair at all really. He either takes it and handles it mildly, and people say he’s a moron and stumped, or he reacts like this, and people complain in the opposite direction.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  61. Dec. 4, 2007: “Lawn work at Romney’s home still done by illegal immigrants”: http://bo.st/qOBfSC

    Karl (37b303)

  62. Perry rewards illegal immigration with in-state tuition and he’s talking about lawn maintenance?

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/18/2011 @ 5:49 pm

    Yep.

    Makes sense to me. Don’t employ illegal immigrants.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  63. Perry angrily claims that Romney hired illegals. Romney makes a coherent defense. That’s a ridiculous ploy by Perry especially since it’s clearly an attempt to distract conservatives from Perry’s lousy, liberal record on the issue.

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  64. Nathan Wurtzel: We have to seal our porous Eastern border!

    Karl (37b303)

  65. 66, see 64.

    Karl (37b303)

  66. To the Latino community:Badges? We don’t need no stinking badges!

    Bugg (ea1809)

  67. You really think that’s an issue, Karl? Really?

    Look for Gloria Allred to endorse Rick Perry soon.

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  68. I’m surprised at Cooper he’s been relatively neutral

    even though they have bood Perry may have info that Bain Also employed illegals

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  69. That is pathetic! But we’ll let others weigh in, as well.

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  70. Perry angrily claims that Romney hired illegals. Romney makes a coherent defense.

    I didn’t hear this coherent defense. Could you summarize Romney’s defense? What I heard was Romney completely out of character, actually trembling a bit, and attacking Perry with a vague immigration commentary that was very generalized. When pressed again on the hiring, he noted it was a charge from an op ed. Even though the charge is also true.

    So… what’s the defense? Did Mitt have illegals working on his lawn? Yes. Did he have them doing it a year after being informed about it? Yes.

    It’s a valid complaint. Is it the end all be all? No. Is Perry playing this way too much? Arguably.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  71. wall street romney if you think illegal immigration is a problem you should see what living in an America with the magnets off is like

    god help us

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  72. Col.,

    I don’t think it’s an issue. Then again I think the overwhelmingly bipartisan TX Dream Act falls in the same category as the bipartisan RomneyCare, so what do I know?

    Karl (37b303)

  73. “Once again, Romney goes for the big picture and says Republicans like legal immigrants. An important point to be made for next November. Mitt then likens Perry’s “experience” in fighting illegals to a college coach who loses 40 games in a row wanting to go to the NFL. Ouch. Perry responds by repeating his smear about Mitt hiring illegals which draws boos. Point to Romney.”

    - Jonathan Tobin, Commentary

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  74. Cain dodging questions on illegal immigration

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  75. So… you are saying in-state tuition for illegal immigrants polls well… it’s a winning issue to run on?

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  76. You really think that’s an issue, Karl? Really?

    Look for Gloria Allred to endorse Rick Perry soon.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/18/2011 @ 5:54 pm

    If Rick Perry had employed illegals on multiple occasions, knowingly (given the year notice), I suspect you might make an issue of it.

    My apologies if I’m mistaken.

    The core reason illegals come here is that people hire them instead of legal citizens. MA has good folks who need jobs. In fact, Romney’s MA saw very slow job creation. Texas has seen job creation to the point where we have a huge influx of folks coming from the other 49 states.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  77. So Bain had illegals hit workers with pink slips?

    I would still vote for any of tonight’s participants or Gary Johnson over the current occupant. But it would be strictly a case of lesser of evils basis.

    Perry manages to get mining and drilling into a 14th Amendment/anchor baby question. That’s kinda impressive.

    Bugg (ea1809)

  78. Col.,

    However, I do think the fact that Mitt still had illegals working for him well after the Globe busted him on it suggests to me his attacks on Perry are pure opportunism.

    Karl (37b303)

  79. It’s one of the big reasons, next to his near sleep-walking performances, that Perry has been in a death-spiral.

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  80. Notice Ron Paul has had no time

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  81. Col.,

    Commentary is about as neutral as you are. But what does Jen Rubin have to say?

    Karl (37b303)

  82. illegal immigration is wholly unrelated to why America is a deeply troubled laughingstock

    it’s cause you spent the seed corn, losers

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  83. Santorum is an idiot. Because Mexicans are good Catholics, to heck with the Constitution. Up with family!

    Bugg (ea1809)

  84. So… you are saying in-state tuition for illegal immigrants polls well… it’s a winning issue to run on?

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/18/2011 @ 5:57 pm

    Rick Perry signed legislation that Texas’s leg almost unanimously supported because these people are here, and they are better educated than uneducated. If he rejected the tuition policy, it would have become law anyway. That’s how much Texans agreed with it.

    Perry has also used emergency session powers to try to ban sanctuary cities. A better focus, in my opinion, than trying to make Texas hellish with uneducated immigrants, as though they came here for that 1% in state tuition rather than coming here for jobs.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  85. Santorum is an 80s reject you might as well put Adam Ant where he’s standing

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  86. Karl

    It was in the Previous Administration that the tuition breaks for illegals was allowed. The legislature passed it overwhelmingly Perry had nothing to do with the bill

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  87. And Romney knows that

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  88. feets,

    I’d much rather have Adam Ant included next time.

    Karl (37b303)

  89. Happy

    Santorums good guy a staunch conservative and a great party leader – just too intense for most people

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  90. It’s one of the big reasons, next to his near sleep-walking performances, that Perry has been in a death-spiral.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/18/2011 @ 5:58 pm
    quote>

    Agreed on both counts. And I think Perry is doing an effective job dealing with it. Frankly, he’s kinda ripping Romney off on this. Push your good ideas on immigration very loudly, and then maybe people realize you’re not as squishy as reported. Be feisty in your fighting, and suddenly those worried about the tame performance are well answered.

    I’m very happy with Perry’s tremendous improvement so far.

    What do you guys think of Yucca mountain?

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  91. EPWJ,

    Perry has defended the TX Dream Act, foreclosing the “I had nothing to do with it” gambit, imho.

    Karl (37b303)

  92. he would look wall street romney in the eye and say

    don’t drink don’t smoke? what do you do?

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  93. The legislature passed it overwhelmingly Perry had nothing to do with the bill

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 10/18/2011 @ 6:01 pm

    Perry didn’t sign this into law?

    I’m mistaken on this?

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  94. Nobody minded it when Santorum regularly smacked ted and friends in the Senate

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  95. Karl has a good point anyway, that Perry has defended it very strongly.

    But I apparently stand corrected. My mistake!

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  96. There’s no reason other than pandering to oppose the Yucca Mountain project. Moreover, nuclear is the only scalable alternative to fosil fuels.

    Karl (37b303)

  97. “I own property in Neva Dah” bs if you did you would know how to pronounce it.

    bskb (86201d)

  98. Honestly, I think Romney was right on TARP. It was, at least, an emergency.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  99. “Perry sure doesn’t want to answer 14th amendment question.. which is smart since he has no idea what Cooper is talking about”

    - Jennifer Rubin

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  100. Nope, one of the many bills he pocketed as most Gov do when something is unanimous he had nothing to do with it, the pkg of hundreds of bills is usually tabled as they are not in controversy

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  101. Obama flushed billions of dollars of investment in Yucca away

    shameful

    if it were up to these pandering douchebags we’d never have been able to test our fat boy and little man and today we’d be sprechening the japanese

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  102. “Perry sure doesn’t want to answer 14th amendment question.. which is smart since he has no idea what Cooper is talking about”

    Did I mishear him? I thought Perry clearly said he supports the 14th amendment.

    He also had a much more helpful point to make, yeah, but he left no ambiguity about it.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  103. Perry is coming across as pissy desperate. But at least he’s awake. That’s an improvement right there.

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  104. wall street romneycare is lecturing us about markets?

    really?

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  105. Nope, one of the many bills he pocketed as most Gov do when something is unanimous he had nothing to do with it, the pkg of hundreds of bills is usually tabled as they are not in controversy

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 10/18/2011 @ 6:07 pm

    Yeah, that sounds pretty realistic to me.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  106. Col.,

    Shocka. Rubin’s Christie shrine has been replaced by her Romney shrine. If I was Mitt, I would feel ill-used by her booty call mentality.

    Karl (37b303)

  107. Perry is sporting purple lips this evening, like Alex Rodriguez and Obama. Very distracting.

    Santorum is right, but none of these people were stupid enough to support Spector over Toomey.

    Bachmann-those goddamn men losing their wives’ houses; it’s so …bad!

    Bugg (ea1809)

  108. Bachmann is a mom

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  109. Santorum gone after this?

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  110. EPWJ,

    Santorum still has some cash and (afaik) nothing else to do.

    Karl (37b303)

  111. “Perry seems to be trying a little too hard to overcome his past bad performances. The smear of Romney was an overreach and hurts him not Mitt. But at least he isn’t looking lost on the stage.”

    - Jonathan Tobin

    Karl… if you think Commentary is pro-Romney, you don’t read it on a regular basis. BTW… Jennifer Rubin left there close to a year ago, I think. She’s one of my faves, smart, smart lady.

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  112. Perry’s right. His letter did not specify they pass TARP. Santorum should have been more precise. Perry asked congress to pass a recovery plan, cut taxes, and cut spending. I don’t think Perry wins many points here, but man is Santorum annoying.

    Can you imagine how annoying Bachmann and Santorum’s kids would be?

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  113. Romney neatly sidesteps the Wall St question. I mean that in a good way. Lord knows Dems are gonna go there.

    Karl (37b303)

  114. “However, I do think the fact that Mitt still had illegals working for him well after the Globe busted him on it suggests to me his attacks on Perry are pure opportunism.’

    Karl – Seems like an EPWJ level nothingburger point. Romney employs lawncare company. Lawncare company employs illegals, not Romney. Romney says, hey, you won’t employ any illegals going forward will you? Lawncare company says, no problemo, senor. Only way to prevent violations is for Mitt to check lawn crews’ IDs.

    Analogy would be like asking is Gov. Perry ever patronizes restaurants employing illegal aliens. He does? OMG!!!! The horror.

    daleyrocks (e56eef)

  115. Perry is sporting purple lips this evening

    I think the blue background is too bright.

    Romney looks like his face is totally flushed, but my guess is that it isn’t. I don’t think he’s still that mad at Perry.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  116. “on romney’s lawnworkers, perry like kid who insists on kicking an adult in the shins”

    - Rich Lowry

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  117. Col.,

    I could make the case for Commentary’s pro-Romney bias just from the links you’ve posted in threads like this. That they’re not all as fanatical in their tone as Rubin is only a mitigating factor.

    Karl (37b303)

  118. Perry also sent them a personal msg himself that day before the vote

    “dont pass that F#$king bill bailing companies out”

    Something that Santorum didnt mention

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  119. “Perry gets flat out booed for illegal immigration — he’s went to the well too many times..”

    - Jen Rubin

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  120. . Romney employs lawncare company. Lawncare company employs illegals, not Romney. Romney says, hey, you won’t employ any illegals going forward will you? Lawncare company says, no problemo, senor. Only way to prevent violations is for Mitt to check lawn crews’ IDs.

    So Romney is informed that this company employs a bunch of illegals. Romney says ‘I didn’t know! My mistake!’ Romney continues employing the company and illegals continue cutting his lawn and trimming his hedges and doing that leafblower thing I can’t stand. A year later, illegals are still employed by Romney.

    Analogy would be like asking is Gov. Perry ever patronizes restaurants employing illegal aliens. He does? OMG!!!! The horror.

    Much closer analogy would be if Perry catered parties at his home with a company he was provably informed uses illegals.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  121. “there is a jerkiness factor that is hurting Perry”

    - Jen Rubin

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  122. “on romney’s lawnworkers, perry like kid who insists on kicking an adult in the shins”

    - Rich Lowry

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/18/2011 @ 6:15 pm

    If it’s such a minor issue, Romney should have just admitted it and said it was a minor mistake.

    That is the exact opposite of what Romney did. Romney got more upset by Perry’s attack than I’ve ever seen Romney get by anything, and then he flat denied it, with an argument of ‘that was in an op ed!’.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  123. should a candidates’ faith matter?

    really, Anderson?

    we resolved this issue when we elected that white trash kennedy guy I thought

    that was like forever ago I wasn’t even borned

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  124. Romney employed illrgals willingly and deliberately, he shoud own up to it and admit it

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  125. *candidate’s* I mean

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  126. “Romney needs to be careful. Perry may be armed & we’ve seen the dead coyotes.”

    - Larry Sabato

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  127. Pretty obvious this is a fairly Mormon crowd at this point. Boo’s confirm it.

    bskb (86201d)

  128. Well Romney’s been clubbing him for weeks on the Dream Act, a little perspective is in order.

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  129. daleyrocks,

    If you were running for POTUS, and illegal immigration was a big deal to you, would you require ID from all your employees? I would.

    Karl (37b303)

  130. That question about Mormonism should have gone to Perry.

    bskb (86201d)

  131. Cherry pickin’, Karl.

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  132. Gingrich sounds like he’s been in the sherry

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  133. Mitt responds: My housekeeping staff came to this country so they could get in-state tuition in Texas, Governor Perry!

    - Jim Geraghty

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  134. Romney answered Perry’s question for Perry, better than Perrry.

    bskb (86201d)

  135. Col.,

    Those entries were all from the first two pages of Google search for Romney at Commentary.

    Karl (37b303)

  136. Karl – they are definitely the only folks that have called Romney’s nomination “inevitable”, that’s for sure.

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  137. Touche’

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  138. “Much closer analogy would be if Perry catered parties at his home with a company he was provably informed uses illegals.’

    Dustin – That would be a much closer analogy and is still not equivalent in either case to Perry or Romney employing illegals directly themselves. If Perry were told the catering company had a few illegals on its staff but wanted to keep using them because they were a favorite and they promised not to employ illegals in the future and next year a snooping reporter found one on their staff, would that be Perry’s fault or the catering company’s fault? Same issue with Romney.

    daleyrocks (e56eef)

  139. Iowahawk: You know whose opinion on Mormonism I’d like to hear? Jeremiah Wright.

    Karl (37b303)

  140. I read them every day and have for the last four years, Karl. I don’t have to do a search.

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  141. Romney answered Perry’s question for Perry, better than Perrry.

    Comment by bskb — 10/18/2011 @ 6:25 pm

    Much better. I am shocked Perry wasn’t much more prepared for it.

    Though Perry’s ‘I disagree with those remarks’ strikes me as perfectly appropriate.

    I also liked Newt’s answer.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  142. Bachmann? Still a mom.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  143. “Romney keeps trying to refocus discussion on Obama’s failures. He’s the only one on the stage thinking about the general election.”

    - Jonathan Tobin

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  144. Col.,

    Actually, Politico did a story on Romney being inevitable, then one about how he wasn’t. Jonathan Martin on both stories.

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Karl (37b303)

  145. Happy

    and Bachmann looks a bit on the wee side

    People are seeing an intensity in Perry, Cain seems standoffish and Romney seems the same as he has been, so I think Romney won the pundits, we will see what else happens

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  146. Col.,

    I raelly don’t care what Commentary’s take was 4 years ago. I care what their take is now. And that’s pro-Romney.

    Karl (37b303)

  147. That would be a much closer analogy and is still not equivalent in either case to Perry or Romney employing illegals directly themselves

    In my opinion, this is trying too hard to defend Romney. He knew his money was going to employ illegals if he hired that company.

    Romney gets a pass for the first time he’s caught with illegals on his lawn because he was using a contractor. You are being fair to that extent. But he should have been proactive about it from that point forward. To the point of requiring docs? Yes. Of course.

    Just my opinion. This is mostly based on Romney claiming immigration is a very important issue to him. Folks who have that view, and are running for POTUS, should have common sense. If they learn their contractors are illegals… be proactive.

    Is this important? Not as important as Perry made it out to be, of course. But really, that could be said of much of these debates.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  148. Col.,

    …and every gushing quote from Tobin — who wrote the Inevitable story — you post only proves my point.

    Karl (37b303)

  149. If Romney had said that Perry did the thing in Texas that he had to do and no one helped him and as president Perry and the Border governors are going to see a sea change in Washingtons attitude towards the border

    This would have been over and Romney would be sailing into the White house

    but he took a different path, one that alienates a difficult electorate for him anyway (all Republicans)

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  150. ‘Romney is clearly the only person on the stage who isn’t a communist or a nazi. He also has far prettier eyes. Where’s Rick Perry’s Birth Certificate?’

    -Jonothan Toobin

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  151. Cain wasn’t prepared for the Guantanamo question? Really?

    I don’t understand these people.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  152. Karl,

    they are just baiting you…

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  153. Santorum’s whining about Romney going beyond time strikes me as insincere for some reason.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  154. America will be solvent before Santorum sits at a desk in the Oval Office

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  155. This may be a case of an improved performance by Perry, but he still falls further behind. It’s that pissiness that doesn’t serve him well. But, we’ll see.

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  156. Dustin

    high road – Perry’s doing fine, Romney got punched up a bit – still is looking good but Romney still is a poised officious sounding guy

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  157. Karl… he’s live blogging the debate for Commentary. If you really want to check him for bias, scroll through the last month’s worth, for example.

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  158. This may be a case of an improved performance by Perry, but he still falls further behind. It’s that pissiness that doesn’t serve him well. But, we’ll see.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/18/2011 @ 6:34 pm

    If you’re being sincere, this may just be your preference for Romney cloud your view. When Perry was getting hammered in the first few debates, I thought it was pissy all the time. Turns out, that was a winning strategy.

    Perry criticizing Romney is a pretty appropriate thing to do. Romney does, in fact, have a serious credibility problem on some issues, particularly immigration, and it’s about time that was pointed out, in my opinion.

    But when your guy is getting hit over and over, it can be pretty annoying.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  159. EPWJ,

    I don’t feel baited, because I’m not nearly as investaed as the alleged baiters.

    For me it’s NotRomney>Romney>Obama. Pretty simple. I would like Perry to become a plausible NotRomney (because he has the cash and resume), but he’s certainly not there yet. He’s helping himself with this debate so far, but per usual, think that matters only at the margin.

    Karl (37b303)

  160. Is this important? Not as important as Perry made it out to be, of course. But really, that could be said of much of these debates.

    Dustin,

    I think it is important as it speaks to the fact that Romney had an opportunity to come clean, honestly and with some humility admit he could have and should have been pro-active in that instance. Instead of showing us he can admit a mistake and learn from it, he instead showed us he would rather stubbornly dig in. I can respect a candidate evidencing his personal evolution and owning past errors in judgment. Romney, in this, not so much.

    Perry is just reaching.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  161. Herman Cain is losing it.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  162. I raelly don’t care what Commentary’s take was 4 years ago. I care what their take is now. And that’s pro-Romney.

    That is unadulterated BS. There is plenty of criticism. As I said. If you really want to check for bias, review the last month’s worth, or even longer. Saying he has been the most impressive in these debates agrees with what most viewers have seen and said. Is that not true?

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  163. I think I can see in Bachmann’s eyes her thinking hard about whether or not to hit Cain for denying his recent Gitmo comments in his response.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  164. michellemalkin RT @ExJon: @michellemalkin I’m getting worried Rick Perry won’t even wake up for the 3 a.m. phone call. #cnndebate

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  165. That is unadulterated BS. There is plenty of criticism.

    I think they mostly seem to prefer Romney. It’s at least a good faith analysis.

    Why not play that differently? Say ‘they like Romney because he’s the best candidate’.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  166. jimgeraghty “Governor Romney, would you like Governor Perry to say more?” “No, I feel confident he’s hurt himself as much as he can.”

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  167. Col.,

    Since you’re the Commentary expert, you should have no problem posting links of them being as critical of Romney as they have been of Cain and Perry. I’ll watch for ‘em.

    Karl (37b303)

  168. TheFix: Perry is wandering here. #cnndebate

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  169. philipaklein Perry can no more disown Jeffress than the entire Christian community.

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  170. Explain to me again why Pawlenty dropped out but we still have the Huntsman Bachmann Santorum doing the we-represent-the-lollipop-kids dance every five minutes

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  171. I think it is important as it speaks to the fact that Romney had an opportunity to come clean, honestly and with some humility admit he could have and should have been pro-active in that instance.

    Well said, Dana.

    As always, it seems to make sense to look beyond these issues and see the man or woman’s character.

    Romney knows this was a goof up on his part. But everyone’s human. That would have been a good way to handle it, but I think Perry’s tenacity got under Romney’s skin and he reacted much more defensively, denying the whole thing, and then had nowhere to go.

    Perry, of course, shows his character when he defends unpopular stuff like TX Dream, and this seems to hurt him a lot.

    Goes to show I’m not the right judge of who won the debate.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  172. Karl,

    Perry was a friend of mine, leaving for Qatar almost 7 years ago let those connections die off but as his former friend he is fine and I think actually starting to enjoy this, he hates politics and public speaking, he is a manager and a leader.

    Romne is also a really good guy, I’m not going to be surprized if we findout one day that Rick really didnt attack Romney because he respects him.

    but after Romneys over the topcheap shots – Ricks over that.

    I blame Romneys tactics on Huckabees totally disengenious campaign in ’8 that left Mitt – who was a much nicer guy – hurt and angry – and no we see someone who was never elected with this public persona

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  173. Santorum is only included to dork up the Team R brand I think

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  174. philipaklein Perry can no more disown Jeffress than the entire Christian community.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/18/2011 @ 6:43 pm

    Perry said he didn’t agree.

    What I see as protection for siversity of opinion is also enshrined in the first amendment.

    Perry != Jeffress and isn’t making an issue of anyone’s religion.

    Case closed.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  175. siveristy was supposed to be diversity

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  176. Cain beating Romney shows Romney is in the best possible position!

    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/10/14/romney-and-the-not-romneys/

    Northeastern Gov endorses Fmr Northeastern Gov.! It’s a coup for Romney!

    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/10/11/christie-endorsement-romney/

    Arrest of Whitey Bulger… you know who this benefits?

    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/06/23/bulger%E2%80%99s-arrest-romney/

    Karl (37b303)

  177. I mean in those early debates Rick laid off those early debates

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  178. wall street romney needs to stop demagoguing the wee brown people

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  179. Perry needs to point out that Texas is creating jobs while people flood to Texas. Looking at unemployment, the flood of folks to or from a state skews the figure.

    Was MA showing job growth? No. Was TX? Yes.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  180. Oh, and Romney governed from 2003 to 2007. Very nice years economically.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  181. Best debate so far.

    I disagree with Newt that the format was bad.

    Yeah, this is bickering. But it’s at least Republicans driving at least some of it.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  182. CNN just declared that Obama won the debate

    seriously too funny

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  183. I think CNN is deluded. These candidates are not nearly as worried about Obama as CNN assumes they should be. Why? Because they all realize Obama is extremely vulnerable, and they don’t actually need to focus on him, but rather should focus on who specifically will beat Obama.

    Bachmann is probably right that Obama is in serious trouble, unless the GOP is badly fractured, or there’s 5% or greater third party.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  184. Romney – milk toast
    Cain – burnt toast
    Perry – Texas toast
    Santorum – garlic bread
    Paul – crazy bread
    Gingrich – sourdough
    Huntsman (a no show) – crumb bum
    Bachmann – crackers

    Honorable mentions- Ronald Reagan, Yucca Mountain, the U.N.

    Big winners- President Obama, Vegas, apples & oranges
    Big losers- ‘Cainsian’ economics, lounge acts, early bird specials

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  185. ColonelHaiku can no more disown that bottle of vodka then he can disown the entire alcohol company he gets it from.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  186. oh yeah. I forgot Huntsman even existed.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  187. What is with that last name?

    Does he get a sick pleasure out of hunting men?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  188. Did Disco Stu really just characterize Herman Cain as “burnt toast”?

    RRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCIIIIIISSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Icy (4d4cfa)

  189. Does he get a sick pleasure out of hunting men?

    Comment by DohBiden — 10/18/2011 @ 7:32 pm

    I laughed.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  190. I dod too.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  191. Did.

    :lol:

    DohBiden (d54602)

  192. Anderson Cooper-Why do you want no flowers thus attributing to gorebull warming and melting the polar ice caps?

    Herman Cain-What the hell is wrong with you?

    Anderson Cooper-Answer the question?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  193. Oh and Dana Loesch rocks…

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  194. Via Instapundit, William Jacobson declares Perry the winner.

    Perry was much more comfortable, forceful, can only wonder where he would be today if he was this way in the first three debates.

    He definitely did a lot better. I realize many are irritated he hit Romney so hard so many times, but this does appear to be a major improvement.

    Some will say Perry bringing up immigration at all was a huge mistake, but I disagree. It’s going to come up. Perry is the strongest on border security, with the most realistic solution (one Santorum used to hold before he became more bombastic). He should take that issue by the horns. Sure, he comes out with some damage, but it is a net gain.

    Now let’s hope that Perry does many interviews. He’s better in interviews than in this style of debate, in my opinion.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  195. “Tonight’s debate in Las Vegas was clearly the most spirited and most entertaining of all the Republican presidential debates so far. But aside from the opening sequence in which the entire field jumped on Herman Cain’s 9-9-9 tax scheme, the main event of the evening was not much different from the last debate in which frontrunner Mitt Romney​ was attacked from all sides. Though Cain was the media’s flavor of the week, his rivals seemed convinced that Romney was still the man to beat in the GOP race.

    Romney’s patience and endurance was tested to the limit as he was subjected to a series of vicious attacks on immigration, health care and jobs policy. But Romney, who has emerged this year as one of the most polished and able political debaters in recent memory, ended the evening still on his feet without any of the others being able to say he had floored him.

    The nastiest attack came from Rick Perry​ who seemed to be a different man than the one who had showed himself to be a sleepy and unfocused performer in four previous debates. Perry was much improved over his previous tries but that is not the same thing as saying that he helped himself all that much. Perry’s aggression was certainly what his team wanted to see but he overreached when he repeated a smear about Romney personally hiring illegal aliens. That charge fell flat in the face of Romney’s explanation and it didn’t help that Perry kept repeating it. It was an obvious attempt on Perry’s part to distract conservatives from his more liberal stands on illegal immigration and it’s doubtful that many bought it.

    Later in the debate we were reminded of Perry’s previous debate problems when he attempted to make a point about the United Nations and its role in facilitating Palestinian efforts to evade the peace process. Perry knew what he wanted to say but couldn’t quite spit it out and wound up sputtering when he could have made a strong argument. Even at his best, and this was the best that we’ve seen of him, Perry still doesn’t sound presidential or that focused. He may get a bump in the polls but it’s unlikely that he’ll ever retrieve the lead that he lost last month.”

    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/10/18/gop-debate-romney-ahead/

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  196. The not Romneys have to be loving Perry’s willingness to actually differentiate himself clearly from Romney. Did Cain do that? I thought Cain actually more or less endorsed Romney tonight. sure, Cain would rather BE president, but he finds himself agreeing with Romney.

    That’s very appealing if you’re a Romney supporter hoping for a ticket balancer. I’m sure most Romney supporters like Cain a lot. But for the not-Romney guys, it has to be a bit concerning. Perry and Romney have very different ideas on what their government was to be like. The agendas they’ve had are far different.

    We each have to decide which of these agendas we think is superior. Cain seems to think Romney’s the better. I disagree quite strongly with that, even though Cain has such a great way of speaking about big picture items (I also think Romney is great at this).

    Perry looks competent tonight, he’s got a great first 100 days plan, he’s got a great foreign policy view, and he’s got the right big picture solutions. Plus he’s not Romney.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  197. Perry’s aggression was certainly what his team wanted to see but he overreached when he repeated a smear about Romney personally hiring illegal aliens. That charge fell flat in the face of Romney’s explanation

    That is quite some bias.

    Did Romney keep that contractor on after he was told they employed illegals? Yes.

    Did he then fail to keep illegals in his employ? Absolutely.

    A lot of people use services for their maids or gardeners or lawn care. When they know these services are using illegals, they have to decide if they care. Romney decided to keep paying for the service he was getting. I suspect because it was cheap and effective.

    I don’t see how it fell flat, and I think Romney’s reaction was cringe-worthy.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  198. wall street romney gets crabby when someone calls him on his nonsense

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  199. The nastiest attack came from Rick Perry​ who seemed to be a different man than the one who had showed himself to be a sleepy and unfocused performer in four previous debates

    I think they meant three, not four.

    But what do they care.

    Also, Perry did much better in the previous debate. He had two bad ones, one ok, and one good.

    Commentary is editorializing him as ‘nasty’, but what about Romney’s ‘he’s going to abolish Social Security’ demagoguery? Seems like that was untrue and much harsher. Perry is returning fire, which probably takes the edge off the idea it’s nasty to do so.

    Romney has claimed to be a serious leader on immigration for several years. It’s fair to note that the immigration problem has, at root, those who hire illegals and then have excuse after excuse for why it’s someone else’s fault.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  200. Anyway, if some major pundits are already declaring Perry the winner, that is obviously a complete turnaround.

    It goes without saying that Commentary and Hugh Hewitt and Kat Trinko will declare Romney the winner. They will say the same in all debates. And they aren’t lying. I think that is a good faith opinion, based largely on their ability to overlook the issue of a flip flopper’s credibility. Romney is extremely good at this.

    But if Perry is also being declared the winner, at least by some pundits, that’s so encouraging.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  201. Romney’s excuse about his hiring of illegals being an “opt-ed” is a lie. He was busted by the Boston Globe in Dec. 2006, while he was still governor, told the Globe he would make sure it didn’t happen again, and then when busted again a year later, claimed he was just giving the lawn service a “second chance.”

    Now, does someone want to tell me that a person as wealthy as Romney, and as famous, doesn’t have security at his home? Security that should be checking I.D.s as to who comes on the property and who doesn’t? Are you telling me he could not have said to his security “You check their I.D., and if they don’t have a legit I.D., don’t let them on this property.”? Or am I to believe that if I was sitting in front of his house and the lawn service showed up, I could just wander onto the property with no one checking me out?

    Nah, I ain’t buying that at all.

    Cain seemed to have forgotten what he said earlier in the day about “releases.” His defense of nein, nein, nein better get better. And his comments in Tennessee are making the rounds with some Republican Hispanic groups calling for him to drop out. 999 may be the total number of Repubican Hispanic votes Cain can pull.

    Santorum is right about a lot of issues but still plays out as a petulant kids who wants more and more attention. And did you know Michele Bachmann is a mom? Ron Paul is like the crazy old uncle that is right on some things, but has a tendency to wander off not knowing where he is going. And if he wants to cut federal spending, he can start with his own district that took $28 million in earmarks in 2008 alone.

    Of note; Romney is still directing all his ire toward Rick Perry. Now, perhaps that is due to some quid pro quo between him and Cain, but I still have to wonder why you go after the guy in slot #3 when the guy in slot #2 is breathing down your neck.

    Hiring Cain to be POTUS would be like hiring a guy to build you a house that has never been a carpenter. You don’t know what you will wind up with. But figures don’t lie.

    U.S. debt clock:

    Debt to GDP: Texas 18.23% Massachussets 25.44%
    Public debt per citizen: Texas $8,288.00 Massachussets $15,012.00

    State debt: Massachussets $98,758.8 Billion Texas $213,467.7 billion with 4 1/2 times the population of Massachussets.

    Romney is also blowing through his money. He took in $14 million in the last quarter and has already spent over $12 million of it. Perry took in $17 million (in just 49 days) and still have $15 million left.

    Now all of you can discount all but Romney, but voters are not looking for a captain for their debate teams. And Romney was clearly the top choice in the debates last time, when he bested Guiliani. In November and December, 2007, Romney dumped tons of money and resources in to Iowa, having done well in the debates, and got shut out by low budget Huckabee, while McCain was dragging his own luggage through the airports as he was broke and had basically lost his entire campaign team. McCain took Super Tuesday, on a shoe string, and Romney dropped out in February, 2008.

    It ain’t over, by a long shot.

    retire05 (a9f846)

  202. I know most of you guys hate to hear it (and you should) but Romney is your best bet, hands down. Except maybe Cain, actually. But Perry is garbage. Bachmann is garbage. Gingrich is… a joke. Romney is smooth, man – and he’s smooth in the clutch, not just when he has time to think a response through.

    Leviticus (7acba2)

  203. If it’s true that Romney promised to make sure it never happened again, RE: his use of illegals on his lawn care, and it did happen again, the next time they checked, why would Commentary claim this issue is nasty to bring up?

    Romney promised to never let it happen again, so he takes 100% responsibility. Who the hell’s responsibility is it supposed to be who mows my lawn, anyway?

    Of note; Romney is still directing all his ire toward Rick Perry. Now, perhaps that is due to some quid pro quo between him and Cain, but I still have to wonder why you go after the guy in slot #3 when the guy in slot #2 is breathing down your neck.

    That is strange.

    Is Romney an effective strategist? Why is he attacking Perry if Perry is toast and Cain is the only threat? His campaign is pouring money into new ads and new websites devoted to “career politician!!!!!”

    I seem to recall at least one Romney fan saying public service is a noble profession rather than something to get angry at.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  204. Got a bunch of fine Commentary links for you, Karl, from some of the month of August. Appear to have been stalled in moderation. More will follow tomorrow. Happy reading!

    BTW, upon reflection, that “unadulterated BS” should have been a difference of opinion. My apologies to you, Karl.

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  205. I’m watching the re-run, and he’s just… effortlessly batting Perry away. Every time Perry steps up, he gets smacked down. It’s ugly. It would be funny, if Romney weren’t picking on a special kid.

    Leviticus (7acba2)

  206. “Perry’s aggression was certainly what his team wanted to see but he overreached when he repeated a smear about Romney personally hiring illegal aliens.”

    Dustin – That’s not bias, that’s pointing out Perry’s use of a tabloid journalism smear. Did Romney personally employ illegal aliens, no. Would Perry have personally employed illegal aliens working for a catering company to use your analogy, no.

    It’s not working too hard to defend Romney, it’s pointing out Perry using gutter politics.

    daleyrocks (e56eef)

  207. I know most of you guys hate to hear it (and you should) but Romney is your best bet, hands down.

    Was George HW Bush the best bet, hands down, in 1992?

    Turns out the answer is no.

    Was Bob Dole the best bet, hands down, in 1996? Nope.

    Why? They didn’t have the faith of the base. We saw a murmur of this in 2008, though Palin slightly recovered for Mccain on this.

    Furthermore, if we’re confident Obama can be beaten, we do not need to compromise that much. Compromise, yes, but perhaps a little less. Someone who is willing to say some entitlement programs amount to Ponzi Schemes, and will actually do something about stuff even when it’s politically painful.

    We disagree with Obama for reasons. Those reasons should inform our preferences for beating Obama beyond our choice being not Obama.

    But Perry is garbage. Bachmann is garbage. Gingrich is… a joke.

    I think Perry Gingrich would be a credible ticket. And the theme would be JOBS. Perry has a great record on this. He has few vulnerabilities to his left or on the fundamental level (the flip flop or outsourcer attacks).

    Sure, Perry will be called a moron, but he can answer by showing he is smart enough to run a large government well.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  208. Daley re: comment # 118… lol, exactly! But hey! they’re on a roll!

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  209. It’s not working too hard to defend Romney, it’s pointing out Perry using gutter politics.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 10/18/2011 @ 8:58 pm

    Gutter politics?

    Did Romney promise it would never happen again, with the Globe told him he was employing illegals?

    If he did, whose responsibility is it to keep that promise?

    Nothing gutter about pointing this out. Those who hire illegal aliens, knowingly, even via an intermediary, are the reason we have illegal immigration. They come here for those jobs.

    I note Commentary uses the weasel word ‘personally’ to modify hired.

    Did Romney know these guys were illegal? Absolutely he did. That was reported to him, and he didn’t change lawn care services or make any effort to verify these people were illegals.

    Apart from whether you want to blame Romney, what a foolish move for a guy who knew he was running for President.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  210. Dustin, Commentary is written by nor’easterners who do not seem to like anything south of the Mason/Dixon line. That’s just the way it is. It is like Krauthammer, and all the other NY/DC beltway insiders who were trying to bash Perry even before he got in the race.

    No surprise; they (the establishment GOP) did it to Reagan, Bush II and now Perry. It ain’t purdy, but that’s the way it is. East Coast Republicans are, in many cases, more liberal than Southern Democrats.

    These NE elitists know that if they talk about actual records of the candidates, on issues that are now important to the voters, jobs, taxes, fiscal responsibility in government, Romney falls way short of Perry. The Boston Herald had an article today on how Romney gave people on welfare auto insurance, even membership to Triple A. That is not going to play well in the heartland.

    But apparently Romney fears Perry and so he continues to produce ads, and put stupid stuff on his campaign website, that attacks Perry. Perhaps Cain is vying for the Romney VP slot, but if he is, Cain is barking up the wrong tree. Christie has that gig sewn up.

    retire05 (a9f846)

  211. Actually, Politico did a story on Romney being inevitable, then one about how he wasn’t. Jonathan Martin on both stories.

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    Comment by Karl

    Karl… I clearly should have added the “sarcasm\”…

    [note: fished from spam filter (again). --Stashiu]

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  212. The “theme” might be “JOBS” but the articulation would be “JABS” or “JUGS” or “JIM” or some other stumble-bum hilarity, because the guy just… can’t hack it. And Romney would be there every step of the way, slapping him and scolding him and making him look stupid. And, for that matter, so would Obama, if you guys gave him the chance.

    Leviticus (7acba2)

  213. happyfeet is totally right, by the way – you guys really could’ve used Mitch Daniels.

    Leviticus (7acba2)

  214. daleyrocks, the first report about Romney’s illegal hires was in Dec. 2006, when he was still governor. The next report was not until Dec., 2007 and Romney was clearly running for POTUS by then, having started his campaign in January, 2007. He was beating up on Guilianai and Huckabee over illegal immigration but did not fire the lawn service he knew was using illegals. Nor did he turn that company into ICE, which as both governor and a presidential candidate, he should have done.

    It was Romney’s responsibility and he abdicated it. There is no excuse for that no matter how you want to sugar coat it.

    retire05 (a9f846)

  215. Speaking in Spanish, the worker identified himself as Justo Sanan, a 35-year-old father of three from Guatemala, and said he told Saenz as early as March that he did not have legal papers. Saenz then told him to “go get something,” Sanan said.

    Sanan then bought a false green card and Social Security number for $80 from a man on the street he never saw again. He showed the papers to Saenz, who he said photocopied and returned them.

    Jeez. So a fraud.

    Apparently Saenz and Romney were friends at church, which is why Mitt hired Saenz’s company for lawn services for his and his son’s mansions.

    “He’s a man of integrity,” Saenz said. “He’s a whole man. Morally and spiritually, I find him to be the one who can lead this country.”

    But you tell people to provide forged documents, Saenz.

    Mitt Romney repeatedly lashed out at rival Rudy Giuliani for providing sanctuary to illegal immigrants in New York City.

    Yet, the next morning, on Thursday, at least two illegal immigrants stepped out of a hulking maroon pickup truck in the driveway of Romney’s Belmont house, then proceeded to spend several hours raking leaves, clearing debris from Romney’s tennis court, and loading the refuse onto the truck.

    In fact, their work was part of a regular pattern. Even after a Globe story in December 2006 highlighted Romney’s use of a landscaping company that employs illegal immigrants to tend to his grounds, Romney continued to employ Community Lawn Service With a Heart – until yesterday. The company continued to employ illegal immigrants.

    The two workers confirmed in separate interviews with Globe reporters last week that they were in the country without documents. One said he had paid $7,000 to a smuggler to escort him across the desert into Arizona; the other said he had come into the country with a student visa that has expired. Both were seen working on the lawn by either Globe reporters or photographers over the last two months.

    Questioned yesterday afternoon during a campaign swing through New Hampshire about the use of illegal immigrants on his lawn, Romney declined to answer. An aide said he would issue a statement, and Romney, emerging from a Concord restaurant, said, “Did you hear him? We’ll give you a statement.”

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  216. _______________________________________________

    It was an obvious attempt on Perry’s part to distract conservatives from his more liberal stands on illegal immigration and it’s doubtful that many bought it.

    I have a hunch both Romney and Perry are innately squishy about — or ultimately will be soft touches towards — illegal immigration. Most crucially, the core of what animates them has become quite commonplace among people in general. A most revealing example of that? The astonishing lunacy at the heart of the story of the US military, its fanatic enlistee Nidal Hasan, and the Fort Hood massacre.

    We live in an era that is awash in so much do-gooder sophistication, high-tech comfortability, and oh-so-hip, nihilistic cultural trends — IOW, an environment where political correctness easily runs rampant — that many of us fall for the idea that in order to be civilized and humane, we have to be total saps or fools.

    Mark (411533)

  217. The “theme” might be “JOBS” but the articulation would be “JABS” or “JUGS” or “JIM” or some other stumble-bum hilarity, because the guy just… can’t hack it. And Romney would be there every step of the way, slapping him and scolding him and making him look stupid. And, for that matter, so would Obama, if you guys gave him the chance.

    Comment by Leviticus — 10/18/2011 @ 9:07 pm

    I actually give Romney a lot more credit than that. Romney was pretty awesome about boosting Mccain after the 2008 nomination. That makes it easier for me to stomach voting for Romney if we make the mistake of nominating him.

    For the life of me I cannot figure out why anyone would say it’s gutter politics to note that Romney broke his promise to make sure he would no longer have illegals working at his mansion. What is nasty about that? This is a very serious issue. There is a reason this is illegal.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  218. Don’t read those links to Commentary retired05… would hate to burst your bubble or rock your pre-conceived world.

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  219. “for the life of me I cannot figure out why anyone would say it’s gutter politics to note that Romney broke his promise to make sure he would no longer have illegals working at his mansion.”

    Shocka!

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  220. Leviticus, you think Perry can’t hack it. But how does his record in Texas stack up to Romney’s deeply in debt state?

    Jobs created in Massachussets under Romney, Jan. 2003 to Jan. 2007 – 51,362

    Jobs created in Texas under Perry for the same time frame – 834,900.

    Private sector jobs creation between April 2001/2001 Texas ranks #1, Massachussets #44 Between those dates, Texas saw an increase of 732,000 jobs while Massachussets saw loss of 140,700 jobs. Past year? Texas +251,700 jobs, Massachussets +34,000 jobs.

    And Romney care is only solvent due to a dump of $764 million into it from Obama’s Stimulus bill.

    Hardly a winning record for Mittens.

    retire05 (a9f846)

  221. “Leviticus, you think Perry can’t hack it. But how does his record in Texas stack up to Romney’s deeply in debt state?”

    - retire05

    Oh, I’m talking about his Bullsh*t Peddling skillz, not his job creation skills. I just think that the former matters way more than the latter in what passes for political representation in this country.

    Leviticus (7acba2)

  222. wall street romney is a MAGNET for illegals cause of he dangles jobs in front of them like candy

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  223. more tomorrow…

    ColonelHaiku (75566b)

  224. Rosales recalled Romney sometimes waving as they tended to the grounds, which include a tennis court and swimming pool. [Mitt] Romney occasionally called out, “buenos dias,” drawing good-natured laughter from the workers.

    btw, the 2006 story notes they were non-English speaking Guatemalans working 11 hours per day.

    Saenz said he met Romney through the Mormon Church and said Romney has used his company’s services for a decade. Saenz said Romney never asked him if his workers are legal immigrants.

    “He doesn’t have to ask,” Saenz said. “I’m a company.”

    Also he didn’t have to ask because it’s obvious they are illegals.

    Told by reporters that his employees said they were in this country illegally, Saenz responded: “What you’ve heard is not my problem.”

    Saenz said he had never requested any proof from his employees to show they are here legally. “I don’t need to tell them to show me documents,” he said.

    Classy guy.

    Community Lawn Service also provides landscaping for a Massachusetts Port Authority property in Revere and public school grounds in Chelsea. The Globe reported in June that companies using undocumented workers had received state contracts, triggering intense debate on Beacon Hill.

    So you’re telling me Romney’s church friend’s business was getting Mass. government contracts for his services, too?

    All this shows is that Romney lacks credibility on immigration, and gives Perry a chance to be bombastic about illegal immigration (which was the actual point of this).

    I don’t think it’s a huge issue, but it’s certainly legitimate for Perry to return fire to Romney in this particular way.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  225. Oh, I’m talking about his Bullsh*t Peddling skillz, not his job creation skills. I just think that the former matters way more than the latter in what passes for political representation in this country.

    Comment by Leviticus — 10/18/2011 @ 9:23 pm

    Perhaps you’re right. I mean, Obama won after all.

    Shocka!

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/18/2011 @ 9:14 pm

    I just don’t see how Romney didn’t take full responsibility for this in 2006, before the 2007 expose on his further benefiting from the 11 hour work days of poorly paid non English speaking Guatemalans who any imbecile would suspect was illegal.

    Is this how Romney would be president? Pass the buck even after he’s informed of a problem?

    What pisses me off is these folks were paid crappy for grueling work. I guess that’s the free market at work, but it’s also a very unpleasant reality. I hope Romney enjoyed his amazingly landscaped lawn very much.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  226. It seems Romney’s defense is simply ‘that’s nasty!’ ‘that’s the gutter!’ ‘stop being mean!’

    He either knew they were illegals, and didn’t care, or he is a complete moron.

    The idea Perry should take it easy on Romney went out the window with that ‘he’s gonna take away your entitlement goodies!’ demagoguery.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  227. I do think if one of these miserable lawn care workers went to UT or TAMU and became a citizen, that would be a not-bad outcome.

    I don’t mind hard workers becoming Americans, but I would like them to apply for citizenship. Also, I have to admit Bachmann’s ‘English as the official language’ view resonates with me. Not out of a hope to keep spanish speakers out, but because we’re a better melting pot of ideas and cultures if we’re all able to communicate.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  228. Shocka!!!

    Your licking Romney’s intestines.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  229. I think Victor Davis Hanson nails each candidate. He not only picks up on their habitual shortcomings but makes some ironic observations as well such as noting the how cool under fire Bachmann was and that the lower she sinks in the polls, the better she does at the debates.

    I especially agree with his critique of Newt,

    Gingrich: A person from Mars would conclude that once again Gingrich is the most impressive in debates, especially his efforts to steer the attacks back to Obama’s policies. His above-the-fray lectures come off very well. He should reflect why it is, then, that when he does so well in debates and so often is the best informed, he gets little traction in polls — and then address that paradox.

    Poor Newt, if he had handled his marriage and subsequent issues of the heart with more dignity and honesty, he might actually be getting some serious traction. A lot of conservative voters simply cannot or will not overlook or forgive his severe character evidenced year ago.

    And while character is certainly the cornerstone of every candidate with decisions, actions, and policies directly and indirectly an outgrowth of, it’s tough to deny that he is the smartest man in the room, the most experienced, and clearly the most well versed in politics/policy…

    What a conundrum. However, his campaign is just about broke, so I suspect he won’t be long in the running.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  230. Eh. Should be “severe character flaw”…

    Dana (4eca6e)

  231. Dana, it’s getting hard to escape the fact that Newt would probably be a very effective president.

    I hope he is part of the next administration. I think he clearly wants to be part of government, and wants to do good.

    But while he would trounce Obama in debates, I don’t know that he would beat him in campaign management.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  232. Did Anderson Cooper call the GOP canditates evil for allowing animals to suffer so we can eat.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  233. GOP frontrunners I mean.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  234. ______________________________________________

    A lot of conservative voters simply cannot or will not overlook or forgive his severe character evidenced year ago.

    I once wondered if my disdain for Bill Clinton was due largely to his politics. While I don’t care for his liberal biases, my gut reactions towards someone who’s in comparison is at least considerably better ideologically, that being Newt Gingrich, prove to me that I’m also affected by the integrity and basic good judgment of a person. It doesn’t help too that Gingrich not long ago sniffed about the importance of right-leaning cultural values in this society. I do wonder if there aren’t tiny glimmers of, say, Delaware’s Christine O’Donnell hovering around the brain circuity of Gingrich.

    Mark (411533)

  235. I disagree with Newt that the format was bad.

    Dustin, I agreed strong with him at that exact point; Perry and Romney were gaming the system to run out the clock and Cooper was either clueless or complicit. I wanted to fast-forward through a lot of that “yo’ mama” stuff.

    This is even more troubling since every candidate would have had an equal opportunity to talk, had Cooper not let the two idiots bicker.

    Under the rules of the last several debates, it would be possible for two candidates to consume all the time on the first question, especially if the moderator hasn’t a spine. Who wants to listen to Santorum and Paul beating up on each other?

    Kevin M (563f77)

  236. Poor Newt, if he had handled his marriage and subsequent issues of the heart with more dignity and honesty

    A lot of that is based on his ex’s comments that the Clintonistas talked up during the impeachment proceedings. Others who knew the facts (e.g. their daughter) say Mom was lying.

    1. Ex-wife was not dying (did not die) of cancer.
    2. Ex-wife did not even have cancer. Benign.
    3. Newt did not divorce her, she divorced him.
    4. Hospital visit had nothing to do with the divorce, which wasn’t discussed.

    But it was juicy enough for the press (Democrats even then) to hang on Newt, and provide cover for Clinton.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  237. Who won last night’s debate? Easy. Jon. Huntsman.

    tifosa (7c1485)

  238. Dream 2013 government:

    President Newt Gingrich
    VP Bachmann
    Sec Treasury Romney
    Sec State Bolton
    (last) Sec Commerce Cain
    Sec Interior Perry
    Fed Chairman Ron Paul
    Postmaster General Santorum
    Ambassador to Pakistan Huntsman
    Sec Education (none)
    Sec Labor (none)
    Sec HUD (none)

    Kevin M (563f77)

  239. Some of these guys need to think better on their feet. Romney kept attacking Perry for having such an increase in illegals, when CA and FL did not. Perry’s reply should have been: “they go where the jobs are.” But no, instead he came up with that lame comment about Romney’s gardener’s helpers being illegal. Does Perry really card everyone who works at his house?

    And as for Bachmann’s suggestion that folks come from Mexico to get welfare for their anchor kid, why would they go to skinflint Texas when they could be in generous California? They go to Texas for jobs.

    Then again, I can’t abide Perry much. His only real use is to make Gingrich look better.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  240. “I note Commentary uses the weasel word ‘personally’ to modify hired.’

    Dustin – It mirrors what Perry said. He modified how he said it the second time he tried the attack. Watch the clip.

    daleyrocks (e56eef)

  241. Dustin, I agreed strong with him at that exact point; Perry and Romney were gaming the system to run out the clock and Cooper was either clueless or complicit. I wanted to fast-forward through a lot of that “yo’ mama” stuff.

    Of course the bickering is unfortunate, but at least it’s catered to a more conservative mindset. Anything that takes the initiative from the liberal moderators and gives it to the candidates seems like a less bad scenario.

    Then again, I can’t abide Perry much. His only real use is to make Gingrich look better.

    Comment by Kevin M — 10/19/2011 @ 12:37 am

    Well… that and leading a huge government extremely well, with a record that speaks for itself.

    Frankly, I think Perry hitting Romney like that was a very good move. I’ve never seen Mitt fall apart like that. He was bright red and trembling. Sure, this is silly, but it worked. I’m seeing a lot of the folks who liked seeing Perry bashed very angry that Perry broke the 11th commandment. Sorry, guys. Romney threw that out the window when he demagogued on entitlement reform.

    Does Perry really card everyone who works at his house?

    Do you card everyone who works for you? It’s the law.

    Romney’s church friend who got contracts from MA and from Romney for his mansion and his son’s mansion made a point of telling the paper he does not check documentation. He made a point of explaining just how little he respects US laws. His attitude was to pretend undocumented workers were legal, because that man is dishonest. And after that was proven, Romney continued using him after assuring MA he would fix the problem. And he did nothing to assure himself he was no longer using illegals to mow his lawn and trim his hedges. Even though these workers still couldn’t speak English, and were working extremely long hours. Romney’s excuse is that when informed of a problem, and telling us he’ll fix it, it’s not his fault if he relies on a fall guy that Romney already knew did not take this matter seriously.

    If Perry was the one with the illegals, the howling from Romney’s fans would be deafening.

    Is this a serious issue? I don’t think so, but then, I am not exactly surprised Romney was unable to hold to his word to take care of something. That is why I didn’t support him before I learned about this issue.

    You’re right that Perry had a much more logical defense to Romney’s claims. Those aren’t doing him any good, given that he’s been hit with a lot of harsh attacks and his mild explanations bring assessments that he’s sleeping through the debates and ‘toast’. I’m glad Perry’s no longer playing softball.

    —-

    I only clicked a few of Haiku’s million links, but they show quite a bias for Romney, don’t they? Randomly dropping snippets like ‘Maybe Romney thinks Perry is stupid’. Not a very professional publication these days. I thought Haiku was trying to argue this publication isn’t biased. If these are the best he can find to show that, it’s stunning.

    I didn’t know Romney hired a top Medina staffer. Gee, I wonder why that was.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  242. Dustin and retire05 – How do you look at someone and tell that they are obviously illegal? Is that a skill they teach in Texas?

    daleyrocks (e56eef)

  243. I’m been a frequent Commentary reader, but the pom poms for Mitt are getting unseemly. Romney turns in
    a decent debate performance, but he doesn’t understand that it’s not just Obama it’s the underlying policies, and the Cap n Trade and MassCare are the signature efforts, that prove he doesn’t get it. Newt has burned all the bridges
    from Brooklyn to Remagen, re Credibility, not just
    his personal foibles, but AGW, Freddie Mac, Sharpton, the individual mandate.

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  244. Dustin – It mirrors what Perry said. He modified how he said it the second time he tried the attack. Watch the clip.

    Comment by daleyrocks

    What did he say, specifically? Can’t watch a video right now.

    Anyway, it seems like weasel to me.

    Romney knew there were illegals working on his lawn. It was shown to him how little Romney’s church pal cared about this issue. Anyone reading the 2006 story can see that, plain as day. Romney did nothing to fix the problem, but said he’d fix the problem.

    How did Romney’s pal get government contracts?

    It’s not the end of the world or anything, but Romney failed in many ways. This is only one of the minor ways Romney failed to create jobs for legal workers in MA, seeing low unemployment only because the rest of the country was booming, not because MA saw growth, which it basically didn’t.

    If you’re telling me Romney didn’t know these non English speaking folks Romney is saying ‘buenos dias’ to, working 11 hour days, are probably illegal, you’re telling me Romney is an idiot.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  245. “He made a point of explaining just how little he respects US laws. His attitude was to pretend undocumented workers were legal, because that man is dishonest. And after that was proven, Romney continued using him after assuring MA he would fix the problem. And he did nothing to assure himself he was no longer using illegals to mow his lawn and trim his hedges. Even though these workers still couldn’t speak English, and were working extremely long hours. Romney’s excuse is that when informed of a problem, and telling us he’ll fix it, it’s not his fault if he relies on a fall guy that Romney already knew did not take this matter seriously.”

    Dustin – The assumptions about what Romney had to know, when he had to know it and what he diid or did not do to correct the situation get pretty ridiculous to make Perry’s attack mean anything, don’t they?

    Four year old story going nowhere.

    I notice you dodged answering parallel questions about your catering analogy. Why is that?

    daleyrocks (e56eef)

  246. Dustin and retire05 – How do you look at someone and tell that they are obviously illegal? Is that a skill they teach in Texas?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 10/19/2011 @ 4:47 am

    That’s why I cut Romney slack for the first time he was caught.

    But what’s your implication here? Are you hearing a dog whistle?

    In my opinion, folks getting extremely low wages for 11 hour shifts who can’t speak English and work for a man who Romney already knows make a mockery of the law when told his workers are illegal, are probably illegal.

    And, in Texas, you can usually make a reasonable guess in these extreme cases. I knew a worker who had shifts not quite as grueling as Romney’s mansion detail. She barely spoke English. Her employer I already knew liked to hire illegals, just like Romney knew about his church pal, at the latest when the Glob informed him (my guess is he already knew). I knew she was illegal. Turned out she was illegal.

    Seems pretty freaking obvious, too.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  247. I notice you dodged answering parallel questions about your catering analogy. Why is that?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 10/19/2011 @ 4:55 am

    What? I’ve asked you many questions, and when I repeatedly note it, you screech that you don’t have to answer my questions. And yet you keep complaining if I don’t answer all your questions. It shows bad faith on your part that you do this. If you say you don’t have to answer my questions, you should respect that I don’t have to answer yours. You shouldn’t take it so personally that we disagree.

    If Perry were told the catering company had a few illegals on its staff but wanted to keep using them because they were a favorite and they promised not to employ illegals in the future and next year a snooping reporter found one on their staff, would that be Perry’s fault or the catering company’s fault?

    What do you mean “one”? Don’t you mean MANY illegals? And much unlike an occasional catering gig, aren’t these people spending tons of time at Romney’s home? Romney’s wife and son were interacting with them, according to the story.

    They were also getting government contracts.

    To answer your question, responsibility goes to both, of course. If Perry had told folks he would fix this, and then did absolutely nothing about it, why wouldn’t someone say it’s his fault that he failed to anything?

    And didn’t Mitt’s pal say he does nothing to verify status? Even told an undocumented worker to just get some kind of forged documents?

    It’s hard to take your analogy seriously when you are eliminating so many of these important factors. Romney knew quite well just how little respect this company had for the law.

    Romney clearly should have stopped paying this guy.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  248. Ian Cormac… I posted several takes on the debate from other sources. Care to comment on those?

    ColonelHaiku (b9f098)

  249. Romney clearly should have stopped paying this guy.

    Clearly hilarious…

    ColonelHaiku (b9f098)

  250. Ian Cormac… I posted several takes on the debate from other sources. Care to comment on those?

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/19/2011 @ 5:03 am

    He probably already knows that Hewitt likes Romney.

    I’m sure Kat Trinko likes him still too. Romney wins again! Despite being as red as a tomato and trembling at this issue that you guys claim is going nowhere.

    Clearly hilarious…

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/19/2011 @ 5:04 am

    There’s nothing funny about some creep paying a pittance to non english speaking people working 11 hour days.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  251. Powerline’s take:

    “The Question That Needs Asking

    I only caught a little of the GOP debate last night, but I came away with two thoughts: first, the distinct impression that New Gingrich’s “it’s-so-crazy-it-just-might-work” strategy for this race is looking a little less crazy with every debate. He’s clearly the most able figure in the field, and if Herman Cain fades as I expect he will (I like Cain, but c’mon—that Gitmo answer was pure amateur hour), then suddenly Newt might well emerge as the real alternative to Romney. (In the half of the debate I saw, Perry continued to unimpress.)

    My second thought is that no one has yet asked the simple, key question that would instantly decide who the best candidate is. And that question is: if elected, which president’s portrait would you put up in the Cabinet room? Ronald Reagan famously put Calvin Coolidge’s portrait in the Cabinet room, to near-universal jeers from the Washington establishment. But it was a sign that Reagan really meant what he said about wanting to limit government. Coolidge is the right answer, though Warren Harding would also be a great answer.”

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/10/the-question-that-needs-asking.php

    ColonelHaiku (b9f098)

  252. It goes without saying many will say Romney won. They said that every one of the past debates, despite Newt clearly winning. They’ll say it even if he doesn’t show up.

    But now, we’ve got people also saying Perry won.

    So some think Romney won, some think Perry won, and Newt probably won in reality.

    The difference now is that Romney’s fans sound ridiculous if they claim Perry is doomed and failed and was flailing. Sure, some will say so anyway.

    But when Romney started whining for Anderson Cooper to stop that mean Mr Perry, I think he lost a lot of the slickness. It probably makes very little difference. Romney was having a hard time getting past 24% or so anyway.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  253. Jonah was possibly the best of them, but honestly
    this is the same publication, that Buckley founded
    in part to challenge the Eisenhower capitulation,
    not that I can tell,

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  254. My second thought is that no one has yet asked the simple, key question that would instantly decide who the best candidate is. And that question is: if elected, which president’s portrait would you put up in the Cabinet room?

    I like Hayward, but this didn’t strike me as very serious.

    It’s clear Romney knows the right answers. He knows what we want to hear. The problem is that in some cases, he doesn’t mean what he says.

    And I think Perry would probably be more like Reagan, and Romney more like George HW Bush or perhaps Nixon, though I think that sounds harsher than I intend it.

    One thing we do know about Romney is “he’s not trying to take us back to Reagan Bush”. At least that’s what he said once upon a time.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  255. Yes, that’s what he did in the ’94 debate, and Kennedy still handed his hat over to him, anyways.

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  256. “Stunning”?
    You clearly haven’t read the articles/posts at the links. They clearly talk of all the candidates strengths and weaknesses. Perry has clearly dropped in their estimation because he is clearly unable to think on his feet. That seems to be the opinion of far more right of center pundits than just Commentary.

    Stunning, indeed.

    ColonelHaiku (b9f098)

  257. Really, it’s time to stop talking about Romney anyway.

    He’s definitely not going to be headed up in the polls from this debate, which was a disaster for him.

    We all know it. His fans are mad, Perry’s fans are overjoyed, and to be fair, the opposite was true many more times in the past. But Romney’s got a problem with 75% of the party.

    It’s time to look at the alternatives. Newt is definitely one. Newt has abandoned the global warming nonsense, if I’m not mistaken. And his debate performance speaks for itself, and actually makes these things worth watching, which is impressive. Then there’s Perry and of course Cain. I think those three should be the focus.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  258. But now, we’ve got people also saying Perry won.

    Who are those people? I’ve seen mention of Jacobson. Who else?

    ColonelHaiku (b9f098)

  259. You clearly haven’t read the articles/posts at the links. They clearly talk of all the candidates strengths and weaknesses.

    You take things too personally.

    I apologize for using the word ‘clearly’ once. I had no idea it was going to affect you so much.

    It’s my opinion Romney took responsibility for the immigration status of his lawn care guys once he reacted to the story in 2006. He ____ should have done something about it. He’s supposed to be a leader who takes illegal immigration seriously. Does he?

    As to your actual point above, yes, I read of them, and the bias is obvious. Just finding an example of soberly talking about a poll with no spin, or occasionally mentioning a problem for another candidate, does not help much, when so much of your evidence actually shows a very strong pro Romney bias.

    Just denying it is not good enough.

    Anyway, if you want to convince people the sky is green, have at it. I am not interested in fighting about stupid stuff like this with you. Commentary is biased in my opinion. It’s not biased in your opinion. That’s all there is to it.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  260. Dollars to donuts you’re full of beans, as usual dustin. People will watch these debates, do their own research and make their decisions.

    You’ve made yours, and you’ll have to live with it.

    ColonelHaiku (b9f098)

  261. But now, we’ve got people also saying Perry won.

    Who are those people? I’ve seen mention of Jacobson. Who else? VDH? all the people at National Review? Powerline? Hugh Hewitt?

    Stunning.

    ColonelHaiku (b9f098)

  262. Just denying it is not good enough.

    Anyway, if you want to convince people the sky is green, have at it. I am not interested in fighting about stupid stuff like this with you. Commentary is biased in my opinion. It’s not biased in your opinion. That’s all there is to it.

    Comment by Dustin

    Winning!

    – Dustin

    ColonelHaiku (b9f098)

  263. There’s nothing funny about some creep paying a pittance to non english speaking people working 11 hour days.

    What an asshat.

    ColonelHaiku (b9f098)

  264. Massachussetts had miserable job performance, they were saddled with an unaffordable MassCare system, that was made worse by the Courts and the Democrats,
    controls on energy in consultation with Holdren and McCarthy, what does Mitt have to boast of, in his
    governmental service again?

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  265. “Jobs created in Massachussets under Romney, Jan. 2003 to Jan. 2007 – 51,362

    Jobs created in Texas under Perry for the same time frame – 834,900.’

    retire05 – Why not enlighten us as to what was going on in the Massachusetts economy that was different than the Texas economy during this period to show that you are not just mindlessly tossing out talking points. Explanations are at hand for those who actually want to learn.

    daleyrocks (e56eef)

  266. Do your own research and keep flailing. Their unemployment numbers were far better than those of Texas. 40% of jobs going to illegal immigrants along with a majority being in the public sector ain’t much to brag about.

    It has become crystal clear that Rick Perry is unable to think on his feet.

    ColonelHaiku (b9f098)

  267. “We went to the company, and we said, ‘Look, you can’t have any illegals working on our property,’” Romney said. “I’m running for office, for Pete’s sake, I can’t have illegals.”

    What does this mean?

    It sounds so bad, doesn’t it? The reason Romney wants the illegals to stop working on his lawn is that he’s running for office now?

    UGH. Just so slimy.

    That’s why Romney’s face turned red. Not because of what Perry said. But because Romney is a smart player and he knows this was a big mistake that will be in a lot of advertisements.

    That’s quoted from:

    Byron York says ‘perry finally shows up’.

    He’s right that this is a great start to Perry recovering.

    Who are those people? I’ve seen mention of Jacobson. Who else?

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/19/2011 @ 5:19 am

    Seriously? We’re supposed to link spam the thread with Perry fans and Romney fans? Some kind battle?

    It’s pretty damn obvious Mitt took heavy damage on Romneycare. He also took heavy damage on immigration and the quote above is going to come back to haunt him. A hell of a lot of people, even Romney fans, note Perry turned in a much better performance.

    For the record, that’s basically all Jacobson says. Perry wins not because he was better, but because he was so improved.

    I think that’s about right. Personally, I think Newt won, and my point was that the idea Perry is getting clobbered is not an issue this time.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  268. Are you really going to hang your hat, on the St. Petersburg Times hack work, yes they voted for Patrick, again, you expect common sense out of Massachussetts.

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  269. Why not enlighten us as to what was going on in the Massachusetts economy that was different than the Texas economy during this period to show that you are not just mindlessly tossing out talking points.

    Well that’s easy. MA had a government that was increasing regulation and taxes (or… cough… fees and closing loopholes).

    Texas had a government that cost 50% less per capita. It had more stable regulation with no massive Romneycare in the works.

    OF COURSE Romneycare = less growth. This kind of outcome was predictable. We’ve seen how Obamacare did the same thing.

    More regulation and more government is bad for business. You need some, but I think most states should strive to get it down to Texas’s level. It’s the one thing that isn’t bigger in Texas.

    People need to stop trying so hard to dismiss what’s happened in Texas. They should try to learn that the point here is that government is not the solution to economic problems, and in fact, excess government intrusion, such as Romneycare, has a lot of unintended consequences.

    40% of jobs going to illegal immigrants

    debunked. The CIS, the source for this claim, also says only 60k illegals entered Texas since 2007. Texas has created 384k jobs in the time period of that statistic.

    It’s true that DC has failed, and thus, Texas is attractive to illegal immigrants entirely because Texas is where the jobs are. But that statistic is ridiculous.

    What’s also interesting is that as Texas has added as many jobs as the other 49 states combined, the median income in Texas has gone up, not down.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  270. No I do not.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  271. It has become crystal clear that Rick Perry is unable to think on his feet.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/19/2011 @ 5:37 am

    And was Romney thinking on his feet when he said this:

    “We went to the company, and we said, ‘Look, you can’t have any illegals working on our property,’” Romney said. “I’m running for office, for Pete’s sake, I can’t have illegals.”

    Can someone explain that to me. Is Romney saying the reason he shouldn’t have illegals slaving away for 11 hours a day for a pittance is that he’s running for office?

    And why just ‘on our property’? These guys were friends. The company served the government, too.

    At the very least, one has to admit, Romney was unable to think on his feet when this came up.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  272. I didn’t watch, not interested at this point watching Repubs perform “whack-a-mole” om each other for the anti-Repub press.

    It’s a shame when a candidate who had as much going for her as Palin did going into the campaign (she was a popular governor, you know) and could withstand extreme scrutiny, (except for the things that were made up and a group of handlers that were against her) couldn’t make it.

    So, where can we find a candidate with an unknown background? Oh, wait, it doesn’t matter, if it’s a conservative “they” will make things up if they have to, instead of burying what is already there for any to see if they would open their eyes.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  273. Malkin says Romney admitted he was a failure on healthcare with this comment:

    “Now, I can tell you this, it’s absolutely right that there’s a lot that needs to be done. And I didn’t get the job done in Massachusetts in getting the health care costs down in this country. It’s something I think we have got to do at the national level. I intend to do that.”

    Malkin also said Romney was dumb for continuing to rely on that illegal immigrant lawn care service. (very old link).

    Malkin reminds me of Cooper’s sniggering about his ‘hard to talk when you’re teabagging’ jokes. It’s a shame Perry or Bachmann, the two Tea Party candidates (at least before they decided to run for President) didn’t call him out for that. I know it’s old news, but that would have been a good idea.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  274. MD, it would have been good had Palin ran.

    I’m not sure why she didn’t. It’s not like this field is particularly strong.

    My guess is that Palin didn’t want the headaches and near torture for her family. Same reason Mitch didn’t run.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  275. (via NRO’s Jonah)

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  276. I’m not so much bemoaning her not running, I’m just bemoaning the reality that instead of a process to find the best candidate, they choose to go through a process to see who can survive the boobytraps, giving the Dems pre-made talking points when the general comes.

    It takes an extraordinary person to have their life examined for imperfection and come out fine. And when a Person did, they hated Him all the more.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  277. I’d rather be water-boarded than put my family through this. (Already have been put through sleep deprivation for years.)

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  278. I’m just bemoaning the reality that instead of a process to find the best candidate

    Totally understood

    It takes an extraordinary person to have their life examined for imperfection and come out fine.

    I would even say that most of the folks who manage to do this are freaks (not meaning Palin). That’s why I mentioned Romney’s family being a political dynasty, at least in my opinion. A family where your parents run, your kids run, your siblings run.

    It’s not Mitt’s fault or anything, in fact, I admire that they all aspire to be leaders. But these days, that means being very cautious in your life.

    And when a Person did, they hated Him all the more.

    The big difference for her was that she didn’t plan to be a presidential contender from the time she was a baby. She lived her life the way she wanted to, and yet still managed to survive the scrutiny? That’s not compliance with the unstated rules, I guess, and that’s why so many roll their at Palin in favor of inferior candidates.

    Frankly, though I like Perry for the nomination, Palin has to be pretty ticked at him. He definitely overlapped with Palin more than the other candidates. They both couldn’t run, and when he announced, it probably made a major dent in her calculations. And then he fumbled several times, where I think Palin would have had no problem.

    Ultimately, I still think Palin and Perry are more alike, but I think Palin is justifiably a little miffed.

    I’d rather be water-boarded than put my family through this.

    Yeah, it makes you wonder about every single one of these people. If they succeed, their families lose a lot.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  279. And when a Person did, they hated Him all the more.

    I’m sorry, was this a reference to Jesus? I’m sorry if I missed that.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  280. Hot Air’s Morrissey: “This is the first debate Romney unquestionably lost.”

    Cap’n Ed has been in Romney’s corner since T-Paw folded. Even talked up Flake’s endorsement as “virtually unimpeachable” TEA cred.

    So the “only credible Presidential candidate”(Hai) isn’t cool as a cucumber. Best drilled, has all the answers but hit him with MA 15% higher than second place Health Care premiums, Emergeny rooms more crowded, all for 3% more insured, sucking Obamacare money to approach balanced books, yada, yada, and he dissolves.

    And then there’s the NH primary date yet to be settled.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  281. Same with Bachmann, although when she didn’t cash the check from SarahPac, and then signed up with
    Rollins, who despises them both, something had to be up.

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  282. 297. Yesterday Michele said she shoulda googled ‘Rollins’. Duh.

    Next to Newt she’s hangin in the debates.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  283. Can’t believe Bachmann hired Rollins.

    I wouldn’t have supported her anyway, as I think I’ve made clear from the time I explained why I prefer Mitch, a reelected and successfully conservative governor. But that was a mistake. Bachmann was very impressive in many ways, and yet I think she’s done herself very little good.

    Hot Air’s Morrissey: “This is the first debate Romney unquestionably lost.”

    Morrissey said that? Well that probably helps explain why Romney’s fans are trying harder than they ever have before to explain that Romney actually won ‘as usual’. Newt’s won all four, IMO. Perry wins in a sense, but he didn’t win the debate itself.

    Check this clip of Romney reacting when Perry noted he employed an illegal alien lawn care service.

    Those cheeks turn red.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  284. 299. Huckabee had just dropped and Rollins had engineered his 2008 IA blitz. She was polling neck and neck with Timmy.

    All water under the bridge now.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  285. Perry won to an extent by exceeding expectations and staying in the fight the entire debate, but was it a breakout performance?

    Also from Ed Morrissey. (He also thinks Newt is probably the real winner).

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  286. All water under the bridge now.

    Comment by gary gulrud — 10/19/2011 @ 7:01 am

    Honestly, I was never going to take someone seriously for the presidency if they had never led. I like Bachmann in some respects, but I’m a Palinista at heart.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  287. btw, I don’t want to take a cheap shot at Cain (I have no such reservation about a RINO), but his willingness to consider transferring terrorists in exchange for a hostage does real damage. Getting the idea out there that we would negotiate like that? That gives anyone hoping to free their terrorist comrades an idea that I think they should believe is hopeless.

    Cain is a noob, and I can cut him lots of slack, but there are some things that a man or woman should just understand without preperation.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  288. If you as a democrap have a problem with illegals getting stuff over legals than why do you vote for Omarxist?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  289. I love illegals, they are cheap.

    OBD (8d652e)

  290. Yes, Dustin, but it was out of left field; only the capitalization clearly pointed that way.

    I liked Bachmann at the beginning, from afar it looked a bit like Palin, had done impressive things with her life just because that’s what she was doing. But then she hired Rollins, and even worse appeared to follow his advice. She is no longer on my radar screen at all. Who among her advisors suggested him? people get enthusiasm for someone without ever really understanding what they’re about, then do things that don’t make sense. Time to get to other things…

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  291. 292. Cain won’t last, just dinks singles. Romney can’t seal the deal with Amerikkka. Perry will need a string like last night to come back.

    Third party is looking like two lane asphalt with shoulders.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  292. ________________________________________________

    It’s a shame that Cain is showing he wears overly large, heavy feet of clay. One major gaffe is acceptable, but going on now to two major gaffes indicates something isn’t very reliable when it comes to his area of basic, sound judgment and control of half-way competent strategy and tactics.

    Mark (411533)

  293. wall street romney has serious likability issues

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  294. #279, daleyrocks, I don’t know what was going on in Massachussets that was any different than Texas beteen Jan.2003/Jan.2007 except that Massachussets didn’t get the nick name Tax-achussets for no reason.

    Romney was governor when the stock market was humming along, and everyone was making money on their 401(K) plans. The bust did not come until Sep/Oct. 2008. Was Romney’s record one of job improvement, yeah, but it was not stellar. He took over the helm at 6.1% unemployment and left four years later with a 5.4% rate. During the same time, Perry started with a 7.% rate and in Jan. 2007, it was 4.8% so the unemployment rate in Texas fell by twice what it did in Massachussets.

    Now, if your interested, the BLS has all this data on its website, which is where I get it from. If you have a problem with the data, take it up with the Bureau of Labor Statistics, not me.

    What bothers me about Mitt Romney is that he is basically dishonest. He is using current data to compare his record (of almost five years ago) to Rick Perry’s record. His latest ad shows a desolate looking Texas two lane highway with rolling tumbleweeds to head fake people into thinking that is what all of Texas looks like. Romney is counting on people like you not doing their own research.

    Romney is also dishonest on his stance on illegal immigration. No matter how you cut it, he continued to hire a company that was using illegal laborers, did not do what he should have done as the chief officer of his state which was to turn that company over to ICE. If you look back at the previous campaign season, Romney, who was using illegal laborers at the time, was beating up on Guiliani and Huckabee for the illegal problem in their states. That is a “don’t look at what I am doing, look at what they are doing” tactic.

    Someone asked “How do you know they are illegal?” Well, it’s pretty simple. I have a house that is eligible to be on the National Historic Register. I decided against it in order to do additions (almost 1,000 sq. ft additions). When I hired a contractor, I informed them that either my spouse or I would be checking the I.D. of the workers, and that I would not allow anyone who was not legal to work at my house. Those workers had to provide me with a photo I.D., and it is pretty simple to determine if someone who doesn’t speak English, at all, if they are here illegally. Illegals, in my state, don’t get driver’s licenses. I don’t know about Massachussets.

    Romney knew his contractor was using illegals, and he did nothing about it. If anyone is encouraging illegals to come here, it is not the states that give in-state tuition ten years down the road, it is people like Romney who allow them to work here. This was Romney’s home, not some benefit where the wait staff were illegals, his damn home.

    At one time, illegal immigration was a problem in just the border states. By January, 2003, that was no longer the situation. That is why the northern states (MA, NJ, NY, PA, etc) were seeing huge influxes of illegals during that time frame. You notice that Santorum never gets into that debate. He can’t. PA has a real illegal problem, as does Georgia.

    I am not looking for a captain of my debate team. I am looking for someone who has a record that I can examine, and determine whose record shows that they know how to handle the problems our nation is now facing: high unemployment, fiscal lunacy in D.C., a war on two fronts, a simmering Middle East that is about to boil over and will affect not only Israel but us as well, an EPA that is trying to destroy energy production here, making us more reliant on ME oil and will cause our costs for energy to “necessarily skyrocket.” And the ever looming Obamacare, designed on Romneycare, that is falling apart at the seams but continues to threaten job growth and business expansion.

    Romney is a big government Republican. Perry is not. And eventually, the populace will start asking why Romney is being shoved down our throats by the northeastern talking heads and will start looking at the candidates themselves. In Romney, they will see what happens when a governor micomanages. In Perry, they will see what happens when a government stays the hell out of the way of small businesses and allows them to flourish.

    retire05 (a9f846)

  295. Ed Morrisey:
    “As for Mitt Romney, for once he spent most of the night on defense. Rick Perry and Rick Santorum went after Romney hard, and Perry’s attack on Romney for employing illegal immigrants had the former Massachusetts governor rattled for the first time in this year’s debates. Perry didn’t have a great night, but for the first time he didn’t have a bad night, and he remained energetic and on the attack all through the debate… Perry won to an extent by exceeding expectations and staying in the fight the entire debate, but was it a breakout performance? Doubtful, although it might be enough to get a few of his supporters back in the fold and regain a little momentum. But the real winner might be Newt Gingrich, who despite having one bad moment with Romney on the health-care mandate once again came out looking positive, well-informed, and fit for battle.”

    Bill Bennett:
    “Mitt Romney, under fire from all sides, showed that he is not afraid to hit back. He also demonstrated leadership by trying to elevate the conversation on the economy and immigration.

    Rick Perry hurt himself tonight. His direct attacks on Romney stepped over the line. Voters want leadership and solutions and Perry neglected that for cheap shots aimed at Romney. The remaining candidates performed well, especially Newt Gingrich and Michelle Bachmann, but have a lot of ground to make up. Rick Santorum is still a presence and he may have put some holes in the armor of the front-runners.”

    ColonelHaiku (ec21b2)

  296. MD, what do you think of Newt? Should we get past the drama of the past? He seems to be ready to lead. I still like Perry, but Newt’s getting a lot of favorable Palin commentary.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  297. The Vegas crooner [Wayne Newton], who attended last night’s debate, endorses Romney:

    Mr. Las Vegas himself, Wayne Newton, told NBC he came in hoping to support Rick Perry, but the impeccably tanned crooner said he thought the Texas governor’s attacks on Mitt Romney were “mean-spirited” — and that Romney was a “gentleman.”

    And now he’ll back Romney.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/280614/romney-wins-wayne-newton-primary-robert-costa

    ColonelHaiku (ec21b2)

  298. Bennet and Hewitt have good minds but they are Republican aparatchiks. Decent people, unlike Rove or Mirengoff, but no cred with TEAs.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  299. “To use his own colloquialism, there is no question but that Mitt Romney won this debate. And he showed something new as well — serious chops in quick sparring and debating skill one on one. He was quick and effective against Herman Cain on the state-tax issue, Rick Perry on several issues (most effectively, at the end, judging someone on their past), and Newt Gingrich on the issue of the health-care mandate’s origins. It was a stellar performance. I am yet to be convinced he’s the inevitable nominee but one cannot gainsay his debating skills, especially compared with the others.

    Rick Perry did not overcome his debating-skills deficit. He came out of the box in his opening statement with a negative jab that seemed wrong for the moment and went downhill from there. One simply cannot look uninterested at best and throw jabs that don’t land at worst, especially when it is clear the strategy is to debate (and campaign) negatively.”

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/280590/debate-seth-leibsohn

    ColonelHaiku (ec21b2)

  300. Romney is also dishonest on his stance on illegal immigration. No matter how you cut it,

    Exactly, Retire.

    Mitt rebooted himself in 2007 on many issues. One of them was immigration, and he used this to hammer Giuliani. But it was BS. The Mitt we hear taking immigration so seriously simply did not act proactively or even reactively to obvious issues in his own home.

    It’s not that I’m furious that yet another yuppie …. not nice word hired some non english speakers for incredibly lame working conditions like 11 hour shifts and crap wages and no benefits (that I might add are subsidized by Romneycare, but whatever).

    It’s not a big deal that Mitt hired these guys, in that way. What’s a big deal is that Mitt has no credibility when he’s bashing others on immigration. the reboot on abortion or spending or taxes or even our right to say no to insurance, or gun rights… it’s all BS. And we would see that very plainly if Romney became president. Even though we have a tremendous opportunity to nominate someone at least more conservative.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  301. Wayne Newton?

    Who does George Clooney support?

    Who does Lady Gaga like?

    If they had to choose from the GOP field, I’m guessing Romney or Nor.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  302. With a few (Morrisey and Jacobson) exceptions, looks like the general consensus is that Romney won another debate per right-of-center political pundits.

    ColonelHaiku (ec21b2)

  303. Middle America are big fans of guys like Wayne Newton.

    ColonelHaiku (ec21b2)

  304. Barry Manilow says Ron Paul makes a lot of sense,
    lol. Clooney doesn’t think the Democrats are grateful enough to Obama.

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  305. The Ivy League guys looooovvvvvveeeeee Romney. He is one of them. It is also reason to not like him. It is these same effete conservatives who got us into the mess with their Cocktail Party Conservatism. They love ideas but loathe the fight.

    OBD (8d652e)

  306. Rick Santorum is still a presence

    lol

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  307. Mitt on immigration is laughable b/c he neither gets the issues nor do he has a real sense of what they are.

    OBD (8d652e)

  308. Mitt on immigration is laughable b/c he neither gets the issues nor do he has a real sense of what they are.

    Comment by OBD — 10/19/2011 @ 7:39 am

    I just the real lesson is that Mitt’s BS pose on immigration is BS.

    “We went to the company, and we said, ‘Look, you can’t have any illegals working on our property,’” Romney said. “I’m running for office, for Pete’s sake, I can’t have illegals.”

    That comment of Romney’s reveals so much about him.

    He knows his friend from church is a government contractor. At this point, he knows this guy is flagrantly employing illegals and dismissing the issue when proven by the Globe, with contempt for the laws.

    And Romney’s response isn’t ‘stop employing illegals’. It’s ‘stop using them on MY property, buddy’. And it’s not ‘stop using them on my property because it’s wrong or illegal’. It’s ‘stop using them on my property because it creates a political problem for me.’

    It’s unintentionally ugly. Cringe Cringe Cringe.

    With a few (Morrisey and Jacobson) exceptions, looks like the general consensus is that Romney won another debate per right-of-center political pundits.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/19/2011 @ 7:33 am

    Indeed it appears that even though the night was an unmitigated disaster for Romney on Romneycare, and also pretty bad on immigration, his supporters in the media are shouting that he actually won. Don’t believe your lying eyes. Newt was bested by Mitt yet again, as he always has been and always shall be.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  309. Dustin, you cannot argue against success. And there is no argument that during this economic downturn, Texas has made lemonaid out of lemons. Massive migration to Texas, requiring it to stay on top of job growth, speaks for itself. Those 5+ million people who moved to Texas in the last ten years were not all illegals. Basically, only 5% of them were, the other 95% came from other states.

    People vote on state politics with their feet. They go where the jobs are. They do not stay where there are no jobs and they are looking at the poor house. Romney has to try to destroy the Texas record. But in the end, the numbers don’t lie.

    Neither Guiliani or Huckabee saw Romney’s attacks on illegal immigration coming. Probably because they had also read the Globe’s report and didn’t think Romney would go there. But Romney did, and released a video ad bashing Huckabee for in-state tuition after Huckabee won the Iowa caucus. It backfired, McCain took Super Tuesday and Romney folded like a cheap suit a week later.

    I knew Huckabee had an illegal problem. At the time, I was going to northwest Arkansas every fall. All the signs at the Rogers, Arkansas Wal-Mart were in Spanish and I got a cashier who barely spoke English. Mexican restaurants were everywhere in a state that, for years, had a very small Hispanic population, but places like Tyson and Paul’s were hiring illegals as fast as they could bus them up from Mexico. Tyson had even been sued by the Feds more than once for recruiting laborers not in the U.S., but in Mexico.

    Guiliani had made a couple of statements that were stupid about illegals. Romney, the hypocrite, used that against Rudy.

    The thing is that nothing Perry has said about Romney is false. People just seem to object to the way Perry says it. I find it absurd that Romney has been going after Perry (and not Cain) tooth and toenail, but the talking heads start to cry foul when Perry goes after their Chosen One.

    retire05 (a9f846)

  310. Middle America are big fans of guys like Wayne Newton.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/19/2011 @ 7:34 am

    His music and persona.

    They are also fans of a lot of other celebs. That’s our pop culture.

    And yet Romney is unable to get beyond 25% of his own party’s support even after spending an exponent more money than his nearest competitor, running for five years, and accumulating all these awesome endorsements from everybody we’re supposed to obey.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  311. Colonel Haiku, perhaps you should check this a.m.’s headlines. Wayne Newton said that Romney won the debate, but he threw his support to Michele Bachmann.

    retire05 (a9f846)

  312. 318. “Middle America are big fans of guys like Wayne Newton.”

    Grams had an album featuring the pudgy young Newton singing ‘Danke Schoen’. She passed about 40 years ago.

    Now the military has a much deserved regard for Wayne, but that Middle America you speak of is gone.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  313. I find it absurd that Romney has been going after Perry (and not Cain) tooth and toenail, but the talking heads start to cry foul when Perry goes after their Chosen One.

    Comment by retire05 — 10/19/2011 @ 7:46 am

    Particularly from establishment republicans, whining about civility BS.

    Romney’s attempt to scare the old ladies that the GOP might abolish social security if they don’t support him crossed the line. That’s the kind of …. thing …. that costs the GOP general elections. There is zero doubt that Romney’s demagoguery will come back and bite us in a year, no matter the nominee. That was democrat fear tactics 101. You want your goodies? Vote me.

    Perry and Romney exchanging barbs on which is more centrist on illegal immigration is internal party stuff with far less damage in the general unless one of them really ticks off hispanics, Cain style.

    They are utterly different categories, and the first person to understand this is probably Romney himself, and he would have pointed that out if he and Perry were in opposite roles.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  314. Colonel Haiku, perhaps you should check this a.m.’s headlines. Wayne Newton said that Romney won the debate, but he threw his support to Michele Bachmann.

    Comment by retire05 — 10/19/2011 @ 7:52 am

    No diss intended to Haiku on this, but learn to read his excerpts like that. He will mention the part that he likes (X), even if it’s an ‘even though kinda X, ultimately the opposite of X’ article.

    Unless it’s a link to Kat Trinko or Commentary or Hewitt, in which case he’s probably repeating the pro Romney thesis.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  315. btw, I like Wayne Newton. A real patriot.

    Still voting Perry.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  316. 330. Fully 2/3 of the Right haven’t decided, except they don’t want Mitty. Roughly a half of those will not reconsider for any purpose.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  317. JRubinBlogger: Why Jeffress is wrong, why Perry was wrong not to condemn remarks + why it’ll cost him with Jews,Catholics and others http://t.co/Albh1LIS

    JRubinBlogger: @JimPethokoukis @ByronYork the angry eyes shot of Perry on the front page of most newspapers isnt so flattering

    JimPethokoukis “Perry is a hard man. … the kind of politician who would rather be feared than loved—or respected. ” http://t.co/WdNGgynQ

    TheFix: Mitt Romney’s Teflon image gets scratched but not dented in #cnndebate. http://t.co/INwZskoK

    JimPethokoukis RT @ByronYork: But did Perry’s new aggressiveness come across as personal cheap shots, or a real challenge to Romney? http://t.co/ZO2Ta5jj

    JimPethokoukis ICYMI: Architect of Cain’s 999 plan says he should dump sales tax, voters are “afraid” of it http://t.co/pdCswIVb

    ColonelHaiku (ec21b2)

  318. JRubinBlogger solid fact check http://t.co/OGQs9hhs few others: yes, Gingrich backed the individ mandate, yes Cain told CNN he’d spring gitmo detainees

    JimPethokoukis “Confident Romney on Attack at Republican Debate” – Reuters http://t.co/51vvxMFL

    ColonelHaiku (ec21b2)

  319. Newt’s won all four, IMO.

    There have been 8 debates, Newt’s been in all but the first, and he’s won at least 6 of them, IMHO.

    There are 5 more scheduled in 2011.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  320. Thanks for the correction, Kevin. I have only watched four, and I simply wasn’t thinking about the other ones.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  321. JimPethokoukis “Confident Romney on Attack at Republican Debate”

    This is his reaction

    “We went to the company, and we said, ‘Look, you can’t have any illegals working on our property,’” Romney said. “I’m running for office, for Pete’s sake, I can’t have illegals.”

    That’s why Romney is certainly not confident about this ‘attack’.

    It’s just such an ugly way to think about laws.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  322. I’m sure a lot of people don’t think Perry is a sweetiepie when he lays down the law. Texas is like that.

    Let’s all grant that Perry was not being sweet about it.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  323. One refreshing thing about last night: when hammered on the point that, several years back, he had advocated a health insurance mandate via the Heritage Foundation, Newt didn’t try to deny it. He just fessed up. Unlike some last night who tried to airbrush over last weekend.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  324. ‘the beatings’ (I mean debates) will continue till morale improves’

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  325. One refreshing thing about last night: when hammered on the point that, several years back, he had advocated a health insurance mandate via the Heritage Foundation, Newt didn’t try to deny it. He just fessed up. Unlike some last night who tried to airbrush over last weekend.

    Comment by Kevin M — 10/19/2011 @ 8:19 am

    It’s a very smart way to handle that kind of issue in the information age. Newt can hem and haw and deny or fight, or he can just fess up like a man, which gains him respect. The facts can’t be changed or hidden in today’s age, so why fight it?

    I can’t help but have a completely renewed respect for Newt, which I totally lost in the NY-23 debacle.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  326. Dustin, if it means anything, I’ve been inclined to view Perry’s “slow” delivery as “Texas” rather than something less kind. But to a lot of people that slow drawling delivery looks slow and disengaged rather than cultural. He seems to have adopted a more forceful delivery of late, which will help him.

    My objections are more that he comes too close to talking of himself in the 3rd person; he’s far too involved with Perry than with the issues. Or at least that’s what my gut tells me.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  327. The fraudulent CPI(40% housing) is up to 4% year on year.

    Producer Price Index up 0.8% in September.

    I say Urkel takes fourth place, dead or alive.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  328. I’ve been inclined to view Perry’s “slow” delivery as “Texas” rather than something less kind. But to a lot of people that slow drawling delivery looks slow and disengaged rather than cultural.

    I know. I know. You’re right about that.

    It’s BS, but it’s also a political reality that people interpret Perry’s manner of speech the same way they interpret Bush’s, and that is to say they think he must be an idiot. That’s what forty years of Hollywood portraying Texans as psychos and morons will do.

    I like that Perry is pausing and then giving a bit of a considered answer. That said, Newt is giving a considered answer without even pausing!

    Romney and Santorum are giving rehearsed answers without pausing. They often sound like gradeschool book reports.

    Cain has the same answer for most questions. I could probably edit some debates switching his answers to totally different questions, and no one would notice. Though I love that he plainly speaks to some powerful truths, and frankly he’s smart to stay away from certain topics like foreign policy.

    My objections are more that he comes too close to talking of himself in the 3rd person;

    Hmm.

    When I reflect on this, I think you’re probably right. I’ve never really loved Perry the guy. He’s just another politician, and I just assume they are all egomaniacs. I like his agenda and no-nonsense leadership and performance. He means what he says and he does seem like decent man, but yeah, he’s a self promoter.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  329. Newt pissed me off with dissing the Ryan plan (and for different reasons than I would have attacked it).

    The NY23 thing wasn’t very good, but the insurgent candidate was flawed too. His argument of “it’s my party’s candidate, right or wrong” had a logic to it, even though said candidate turned out to be even worse that originally thought when she endorsed the Democrat.

    But I’ve watched 6 of these debates now, and my criterion is “who can lead us out of this incredibly dangerous wilderness?” and the answer seems to be “Romney or Newt.” I had thought it might be Perry, but he hasn’t shown the competence and wit that will be required. Maybe he will, this thing ain’t nearly done. But given my current choice between Newt and Mr Plastic, I’ll go for the stand-up guy.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  330. I think romney will wrap this thing up if he acknowledges that Perry has done a great job in Texas, under difficult circumstances, but his kind of leadership maynot be needed rght now.

    If Romney starts talking about romney, about mistakes in listening to Democrats (which Perry does not e chases em out of the state and keeps them there)

    Romney can disarm Perry by defining him as a regional leader a great one but America has different regions with different needs and perhaps Texas’ miracle

    Romney continues to disparage hispanics is going to hurt the party for decades

    Perry can also rebut this by saying Texas ia 1/12 of the population, produces 1/9th of the GDP and many of those Texas products help 2/3rds of the nation produce their own goods and services.

    Perry can tout the toughest tort reform in the country and the lowest infrastructure, lowest debt, lowest spending per Capita.

    A Perry Romney team needs to be considered, all I know is the Arab reaction to the look on Perry’s face may give everyone pause in continuing their plans to commit mayhem on the USA if Perry becomes president

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  331. Newt pissed me off with dissing the Ryan plan (and for different reasons than I would have attacked it).

    Yeah, that was terrible.

    “who can lead us out of this incredibly dangerous wilderness?”

    Define the problems. If you think it’s that we need hard choices that require cutting into entitlements, that narrows the field at least by one. I suppose this is not a matter of ‘can’ but rather one of ‘will’. But some of these guys will wilt under pressure, and flip flop on absolutely anything, if the going gets tough. George HW Bush did.

    Perry’s deficits are not his willpower for hard calls or leadership skill in office.

    After NEA lawsuits for Texas freezing education spending in 2006, Texas a few years faced natural disasters and a recession, and had a huge projected deficit despite having a much leaner government than, say, MA.

    Many wanted some tax revenue increases like MA saw scores of. Many wanted the rainy day fund raided, an easy short term solution to a long term problem. Many wanted education to be immune to cuts. Perry used many tactics to force all agencies to start facing cuts. Education was no exception. Actually, there were no exceptions, and the cuts continue. Perry’s directed agencies to make more cuts through 2013 at this point. That is the way out of the wilderness. That and recognizing social security and other entitlements amount to an unsustainable ponzi scheme, and if we want those entitlements to exist, they must be changed. And Federal Romneycare must be abolished. And we need the hassle of a balanced budget amendment, which works in Texas, and doesn’t work in Cali, and the legal reasons for this should be looked at.

    But it can work, and it will work if do it correctly.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  332. Dustin

    Ryans a joke a moron who wanted to raise taes 2 trillion dollars

    read the Ryan plan – I dont think even Ryan understood it – he meant well, but the guy doesnt have the education, experience or a modicum of intelligence

    Ryan is a liberal northerner which means – I cant afford to pay the taxes to be a democrat

    He wanted us to still pay the medicare and social security taxes but not get the benefits

    I wish people would ACTUALLY READ things before they state as fact the “Ryan” plan

    This isnt a criticism – its just the sad reality that one congressman CANNOT even attempt to initiate a plan just due to the SHEAR size and complexity of the issue

    Aaron and other attorneys here can tell you there are volumes upon volumes of rulings court cases and legislation that these cookie cutter table napkin plans cannot just undue

    The only reasonable short term changes to these plans are to increase costs and reduce across the board payouts without engendering legions of lawyers filing in every jurisdiction like we saw in that Obamacare debacle which is unraveling as we speak

    Gingrich was right the Ryan plan isnt anything but a cheap attempt to step up to a senate seat by a guy who hasnt had a real job – we allready have plenty of Ryans

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  333. Ryans a joke a moron who wanted to raise taes 2 trillion dollars

    There are problems with his solution, but it’s one of the few fleshed out attempts to actually solve anything. It’s everything 999 isn’t (and yeah, I know Ryan saluted 999).

    that takes spine.

    I wish people would ACTUALLY READ things before they state as fact the “Ryan” plan

    My objection is simply that it’s insufficient on entitlement reform. But the fact is that any effort to seriously fix spending leads to tremendously hostility.

    This isnt a criticism – its just the sad reality that one congressman CANNOT even attempt to initiate a plan just due to the SHEAR size and complexity of the issue

    That’s a great point. That is how bad things are. We need something more than someone claiming they are the smartest and can manage this government. We need clarity. Ryan is one of the few who can really sell the point that we need to fix some of these liabilities.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  334. Did Anderson Cooper stereotype Jews as killers?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  335. No.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  336. Dustin, one thing most don’t talk about is education. Perry has been taking on the university elites. He has inserted a little common sense into the tuition costs of universities. Why is Texas paying professors $200K/yr to teach one three hour class while those very same professors are raking in another $200K/yr doing research that is either read by four people, published in some obscure issues newsletter, or not read by anyone at all? Assuming that these professors teach one three hour class, and spend another hour on curriculum and grading papers, they are making well over $1,000/hr, a tab being picked up by the state and parents.

    We have got to start making professors earn their keep. We don’t pay them to work for someone else doing research. That needs to end. And we also need to end the system of tenure. That’s how professors like Jensen remain on staff, even though they are professed Communists and put pictures up of Che Guevera in their classrooms.

    I have no problem with professors that want to do research when school is not in session. That’s up to them. But when we pay them to teach, damn it, they should teach. If they can’t justify a 40 hour week, they need to go away.

    retire05 (a9f846)

  337. Obama is another bush in regards to Illegal Immigration.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  338. Oh ok I guess he isn’t that bad.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  339. Oh ok I guess he isn’t that bad.

    Comment by DohBiden — 10/19/2011 @ 9:08 am

    Naw, he’s pretty bad.

    He’s one of the reasons your grandma is called ‘teabagger’ by giggling punks. Some bigotries are more insidious than others.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  340. Anderson Cooper-Why do you guys hate gays?

    Herman Cain-Why do you project your perverted fantasies onto us republicans?

    Anderson Cooper-Boyfriend Don’t go there.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  341. Mitt Romney may not make a terrible president, but he doesn’t deserve tpo be President.

    Look at this:


    ROMNEY: Yeah. With regards to track record in the past, Governor, you were the chairman of Al Gore’s campaign, all right?

    (LAUGHTER) And there was a fellow — there was a fellow Texan named George Bush running. So if we’re looking at the past, I think we know where you were.

    This completely passed over Rick Perry’s head. RFomney wanted people to think that Rick Perry had been national chairman of Al Gore’s 2000 campaign.

    Yes, that’s imposisble if you know somethinbg about Rick Perry’s political career, but many people don’t. And not all people remember that Al Gore ran in 1988. And in 1988 Al Gore was not notoriious for global warming – I think he may even have started a lot of talk later in bthe year and he wasn’t like the way he was before. Rick Perry wasa chaiorman of Al Gore’s Texas primary campaign.

    Mitt Romney also played games other places.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  342. Newt Gingrich won the debate, but he didn’t get enough exposure. Ron Paul came up with one good answer which was adop[ted by the other speakers (Yucca Mountain)but he had that answer really as a result iofd beinbg doctrinaire.

    Herman Cain thought he should not criticize Israel earlier in the day and wound up sort of saying he might make such a prisoner exchange too then had to take it back. The United States has never ever released non-ordinary soldier prisoners and we can probably still avoid it even while trying to protect captives.

    Rick Santorum came up with a good answer about religion. Newt Gingrich had two or three very good lines and he even critized the Republican Party in Congress.

    All he has to do is not drop out and the nomination may be his for the asking.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  343. The United States has never ever released non-ordinary soldier prisoners and we can probably still avoid it even while trying to protect captives.

    Whether we should exchange prisoners is one thing.

    Whether we should speculate that we might is entirely another. It is nothing short of absolutely unacceptable to say we may consider doing this, because there are many people who want the USA to do various things, such as releasing various bad guys. This paints a target on every soldier and really every American. Every politician worth consideration, at every level above dogcatcher, should always answer ‘absolutely no negotiation with terrorists, especially not for hostages’.

    If they actually do such a thing, it should be kept secret and for some epic reason. But they should still affirm the policy, lying through their teeth if they have to, that the USA is not going to negotiate.

    Cain is simply not qualified to command. He’s a great guy, but I’d vote Romney before I voted Cain (And obviously I’m not going to vote Romney). Some things really are deal breakers.

    This completely passed over Rick Perry’s head. RFomney wanted people to think that Rick Perry had been national chairman of Al Gore’s 2000 campaign.

    Perhaps you’re right. I noticed this goof and just assumed Romney was so angry at Perry he made an honest mistake. I think the guy was thrown completely off his game. I’ve never seen Romney turn red like that.

    Al Gore was the conservative guy in that race. He later changed. It’s actually not unlike moderate Republicans here trying to support Romney.

    Perry has a very long record and it’s pretty consistent ideologically. Texas was so late turning GOP that Perry was Texas’s first GOP Lt Gov.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  344. I don’t know how he made that flub, Dustin, his new communications director, Rumsfeld’s former spokesman, is breaking some furniture in his office.

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  345. He made that flub because he simply is not cut out for commanding the military.

    This isn’t something one needs an adviser for help with. It’s basic. And it’s probably the tip of the iceberg.

    Cain is a remarkable guy who speaks some important truths with common sense and clarity. But he is a pundit on domestic policy and nothing more.

    I’d say the same thing if Perry made this mistake.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  346. Interesting take on last night’s debate from Jay Nordlinger, of NRO…

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/280625/about-last-night-jay-nordlinger

    ColonelHaiku (ec21b2)

  347. How many of the candidates booed a gay soldier in this one?

    Billiam (ae6b6f)

  348. “After NEA lawsuits for Texas freezing education spending in 2006, Texas a few years faced natural disasters and a recession, and had a huge projected deficit despite having a much leaner government than, say, MA.”

    Dustin – It’s statements like these that make the comparison of apples to apples tax burdens and spending by state critical. You just don’t have your arms around it, even now. Familiarize yourself with the TANSTAAFL law. States provide basic services and if one number appears out of whack, such as the spending number per capita you keep throwing out for Texas, it usually means the money is coming from somewhere else.

    The answer is in those tax foundation pages you keep linking. Look at the total state and local tax burden by state. Texas clocks in at around $6,600 per capita. How can that be if they only spend $1,500 per capita? I think you know the answer. Tax and spend Massachusetts clocks in with a burden about $900 per capita higher than Texas, although its per capita income is $2,000 higher. All in, the blue, blue state has only a 2% higher overall state and local tax burden relative to income than Texas. Slightly different picture than being sold here.

    Also, according to the most recent data there, Massachusetts is a much bigger donor state to the feds than Texas.

    Know your subject, not just spin.

    daleyrocks (e56eef)

  349. 356. Not that I know anything, in 1992 I thought Gore more Presidential than Clinton, let alone 1988 after Willie’s 45 minute convention debut.

    The GOP is in trouble.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  350. daleyrocks, there’s no spin to saying Texas is a success.

    Also, according to the most recent data there, Massachusetts is a much bigger donor state to the feds than Texas.

    Yeah, that’s true. And it’s spin. This has nothing to do with Perry or Romney, rather obviously.

    Fact is, Perry made Texas more conservative, both in spending cuts and in tort reform and frankly, 20 years of conservative choices.

    Fact is, Romney made MA more liberal in many ways.

    This isn’t spin. I am not really worried about demonstrating that.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  351. All in, the blue, blue state has only a 2% higher overall state and local tax burden relative to income than Texas. Slightly different picture than being sold here.

    This is such a strained statistic. Apparently you had to work pretty hard to find one, and even then, Texas is better. But I reject this strange statistic. You haven’t even linked it.

    Instead of spinning, let’s have hard numbers.

    Texas government costs $1690 per citizen, and MA government costs $3195.

    Also, MA’s government has a massive budget gap called Romneycare to the tune of billions, paid in part by fed taxes.

    This is a US Department of Commerce statistic.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  352. oh, and the true bottom line is that Texas’s government is cheaper because of Perry. MA’s is more expensive because of Romney. Especially Romneycare.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  353. daleyrocks, I don’t know where you get your information. According to the U.S. Debt Clock, the per capita debt in Massachussets is $15,012.00 compared to Texas of $8,288.00

    Also, you say that the per capita income is $2,000 higher in Massachussets. Well, ain’t that special? No, it really isn’t.

    According to InflationData.com, if you earn $80,000/yr in Houston, you would have to earn $108,530/yr in Boston to have the same buying power. That extra $2K won’t cover your taxes in Boston.

    retire05 (a9f846)

  354. LOL… Dick Morris just said Perry came across “like Richard Milhouse Nixon” last night and that no one likes a “dirty fighter”. He said Perry wasn’t sharp enough to drop the bogus lawn-care bologna when Romney showed him just how the hog eats the cabbage.

    Okay… I was paraphrasing that last bit.

    ColonelHaiku (a21a0e)

  355. “Instead of spinning, let’s have hard numbers.”

    Dustin – Why not address the point I actually made, which factors in local sales taxes, property taxes which fund education, fees and other costs of state and local government.

    It’s not a hard point to make and it’s better than looking at deceptive numbers.

    daleyrocks (e56eef)

  356. “daleyrocks, I don’t know where you get your information.”

    retire05 – Read my comment. I got the information at Dustin’s favorite source., tax foundation.

    daleyrocks (e56eef)

  357. Perry is a ferociously bad debater but he’d be a hell of a lot better president than the cowardly and convictionless wall street romney.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  358. daleyrock, the USNews reported that the median income in Texas in 2010 was $48,250.00 In order to have the same buying power in Massachussets, you would have to earn $65,457. The median income in Massachussets in 2010 was $64,048.

    So living in MA you’re losing money.

    retire05 (a9f846)

  359. Haiku, Morris also said that Hillary would make a comeback and defeat Obama in the 2008 primaries. He also said that Obama, once elected, would tack to the center.

    Tell me, has Morris ever been right about anything?

    retire05 (a9f846)

  360. I don’t think Romney’s claim that Perry was Gore’s chairman was a flub. I think he was channeling Michelle Bachmann from the October 11, 2011, Bloomberg debate (via PolitiFact Texas). PolitiFact Texas also has more Texas economic analysis here and here, if anyone is interested.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  361. Dennis Miller scored the debate like a horse-race, said Obama won due to the cheap shots that were flying, Romney placed, Gingrich was in the “show” position, and his guy Cain finished out of the money.

    He said we might have to use one of those hospital screens and put Perry down in the back-stretch and that he didn’t know just how badly Perry had done until he heard that “Bill Burton genius” (former Obama flack) say that Perry had won the debate.

    Funny stuff!

    ColonelHaiku (a21a0e)

  362. Tell me, has Morris ever been right about anything?

    The man is a well-paid campaign gunslinger for hire, so yeah, he probably has.

    ColonelHaiku (a21a0e)

  363. C’mon, daley. He’s on a roll!

    ColonelHaiku (a21a0e)

  364. Dustin – Why not address the point I actually made, which factors in local sales taxes, property taxes which fund education, fees and other costs of state and local government.

    What point did you make? Seems to me your point was that Texas is better than MA.

    Am I mistaken? You stretch statistics to the max to try to explain why Texas is really not more conservative than MA, while denouncing spin, and even then, Texas came out ahead.

    Anyway, I resent that every time I don’t do exactly what you want, you act as though I have failed. We’ve had disagreements on many issues, such as Romneycare’s failures and Romney’s gun control fiascos, and Romney’s illegal immigration failures and sanctuary city policies.

    Every time I ask a question, you ignore it. When I noted this, you got angry, insisting you don’t have to answer any question I ask. Every time the argument isn’t going your way, you just drop it and start over with something else. I have usually tried to engage, and yet we both know that if I do, you’ll drop it if it’s not going your way, ignoring me.

    You should have considered that before you asked me a question you really really wanted answered.

    But I noted I reject your statistic’s relevance. As far as I can tell, you’re not even attacking anything Perry did, or defending anything Romney did.

    I think you’re going to have to do much better than that to explain why Romney doesn’t have a liberal record.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  365. Mr. retire is a good source of insight I think… there’s such a cacophony of opinion on the internets it’s nice when someone just lays it out all clear and sensible-like

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  366. DRJ, thank you for those links.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  367. retire05 – Read my comment. I got the information at Dustin’s favorite source., tax foundation.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 10/19/2011 @ 5:35 pm

    You have now been reasonably asked multiple times for a link.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  368. Around a month before the next debate, and then I’ve heard there’s a bunch in quick succession. It’s almost like the MSM is trying to ensure Americans are sick to death of seeing and hearing these guys.

    On the positive side, perhaps the 30 days will give Perry’s stem-cell brain injections time to have an affect.

    ColonelHaiku (a21a0e)

  369. What point did you make? Seems to me your point was that Texas is better than MA.

    You can’t make this up!

    ColonelHaiku (a21a0e)

  370. stem cells are so awesome

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  371. Wow you romneylickers hit a new low every time.

    Rick Perry injected himself with the stem cells of iraqi muslim children.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  372. You can’t make this up!

    In his analysis, Texas was 2% better on this combined with another level of government and for no apparent reason based on per salary look at tax burden.

    And no, I didn’t make that up.

    Thing is, I actually DO understand daley’s argument when I reject its significance. I know he said I didn’t several times, and apparently if I don’t support Romney I am both a homosexual and a moron, but neither is actually the case.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  373. Has any Romney fan anywhere on the internet attempted to explain why Romney’s comment

    “We went to the company, and we said, ‘Look, you can’t have any illegals working on our property,’” Romney said. “I’m running for office, for Pete’s sake, I can’t have illegals.”

    wasn’t quite revealing and disgusting?

    I can go back and forth with Haiku and Daley about whether Texas is just as liberal as MA, but clearly that’s stale and we’re never going to agree.

    Let’s talk about something new.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  374. au contraire

    gay tards for romney (3c92a1)

  375. “8:29 – Santorum uses his favorite strategy of interrupting another candidate, and Romney responds very sharply, repeatedly saying: “Rick, you’ve had your chance — let me speak.” That might be the most heated moment Romney has had in any of these debates. Santorum eventually announces that Romney’s time is up before he’s gotten a chance to say one sentence! The audience boos.

    8:33 – Romney gets Gingrich to admit that Romney got the idea for his health-care plan’s individual mandate from Gingrich and the Heritage Foundation.

    8:42 – Perry says “Mitt loses all standing” on illegal immigration because Romney hired an illegal immigrant and knew about it for a year. Once Romney starts answering, Perry uses an uncannily similar strategy to Santorum’s, jabbering over Romney for the whole time he’s talking. Romney (who’s right next to Perry) puts his hand on Perry’s shoulder and leaves it there for a long time. Romney: “You have a problem with allowing someone to finish speaking. And I’d suggest that if you want to be President of the United States, you ought to let both people speak.” Have Perry and Santorum privately agreed to the same line of attack against Romney — talking over him throughout his whole time — or did Perry spontaneously decide to emulate Santorum? Either way, Perry and Santorum are using a cowardly tactic and creating the impression that they’re afraid of letting Americans hear the whole debate.

    8:46 – Anderson Cooper asks Cain why he said he supported an electrified fence along the southern border, then said it was a joke, then said he stood by the statement and just didn’t want to offend anyone! Cain starts out saying he’s finally going to be serious, but he doesn’t clarify whether he still supports an electrified fence.

    8:52 – I just noticed this is the first debate without Jon Huntsman. [ADDED: He's boycotting Nevada. That'll do him a lot of good.]

    8:52 – Perry brings back his attack against Romney for supposedly hiring illegal immigrants. The audience boos very loudly for a long time. Romney says: “We’ve been down that road sufficiently, and it sounds like the audience agrees with me.” Once Romney says that, the audience immediately switches to cheering. That was Perry’s big attempt to offset the charges that he himself is soft on illegal immigration, and the attempt failed miserably.”

    http://jaltcoh.blogspot.com/2011/10/live-blogging-cnns-las-vegas-republican.html

    ColonelHaiku (a21a0e)

  376. “What point did you make? Seems to me your point was that Texas is better than MA.”

    Dustin – My point was in my comment. I’ll try to type slower.

    It is misleading to only look at the share of state government costs within a state as a measure of the overall cost burden of government because governments in different areas fund themselves in different ways. That is why your constant hyping of those Texas statistics is misleading. A table in that Texas fact book even helps you to reach that conclusion. It shows the Texas state government takes in only 53.5 percent of revenues received by all governments in the state. The rest is received by localities. The comparable figure for Massachusetts is 67.5%.

    Is comparing just state tax burdens an apples to apples comparison? Obviously not, since Texas depends on localities to fund more operations. Looking only at Texas state revenues and expenditures skews the comparisons in the favor of Texas.

    To put the comparison on an apples to apples basis, Tax Foundation, the place I said I got the data now several times, presents charts with the overall state and local tax burden by state.

    Go forth and learn.

    retire05 claiming Romney is responsible for the cost of living in Boston is a hoot.

    daleyrocks (e56eef)

  377. daleyrocks, where did I claim that Romney was responsible for the cost of living in Massachussets?

    You are just winging it here, bubba. I never said that and if you have any cajones, you’ll admit it.

    retire05 (a9f846)

  378. romneybots are so evil.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  379. Rick Perry sure didn’t score well with Frank Luntz’s focus group. “One of the worst showings at any of these debates” per Luntz… from the focus group: “disrespectful”… “shallow”… “didn’t look presidential”… “cheap shot artist”… Perry lost three supporters and gained none.

    ColonelHaiku (a21a0e)

  380. That account, is only partially correct, then again
    seeing as Romney created the regional structure for
    carbon capture, the RGGI, with the imput of Holdren,McCarthy and Pizer, maybe it fits:

    http://volokh.com/2010/03/29/was-the-individual-mandate-a-republican-idea/

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  381. So much for back on track!

    ColonelHaiku (a21a0e)

  382. Link to state and local tax burden table:

    http://taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/335.html

    daleyrocks (e56eef)

  383. And the left could not care less about the Military they just use them to bash bush and portray him a sheartless.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  384. as heartless*

    DohBiden (d54602)

  385. Luntz was using people from Nevada for tonight’s focus group.

    They reelected Harry Reid.

    Nuf’ said.

    retire05 (a9f846)

  386. They reelected Harry Reid.

    Nuf’ said.

    all conservative or moderate republicans. Positive on Gingrich, Romney and Cain. Perry may has well hang it up, as far as these folks were concerned

    ColonelHaiku (a21a0e)

  387. “I can go back and forth with Haiku and Daley about whether Texas is just as liberal as MA, but clearly that’s stale and we’re never going to agree.”

    Dustin – There’s no need to pretend that’s what you’re doing. Massachusetts is a more liberal state than Texas. I don’t believe I’ve ever denied it.

    I just wish you would stop recharacterizing the comments of others into things they have not said.

    The discussion of Romney’s lawncare company is ridiculous, creating standards of what people believe should be required legal compliance for service providers going forward. Remember these are third party employees, not Romney W-2 employees, where there is an affirmative obligation to check citizenship.

    Now we all of a sudden know with certainty that Romney knew the owner of the lawncare company was a lawbreaker, that he worked his employees long hours for low wages, that Romney should have been able to spot fake ID even if the employer had not been able to do it. Remember all the while, these illegals are people Perry wants to be productive members of U.S. society and you are heartless if you don’t share that view. It’s a comedy classic.

    Did Perry check ID on all the people who helped him move into the executive mansion before it burned down? If not, why not? Under these new standards, we are going to need affirmative reporting of all ID checks. Seriously.

    daleyrocks (e56eef)

  388. this whole incessant and melodramatic obsession with the itinerant mexican people is stupid on everyone’s part I think

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  389. I’m not a Romney fan but he spanked Perry’s butt cheeks till they were rosy red. Ouch!

    Stan Switek (23913b)

  390. wall street romney spanked Mr. Governor Perry’s butt cheeks until they were a rosy red

    it’s a thing

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  391. Re: #399… seems straightforward to me, Daley.

    Cue the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQFEY9RIRJA&feature=fvwrel

    ColonelHaiku (a21a0e)

  392. It’s not just about Mexicans, pikachu, it’s the South Africa jihadist that crossed the border in 2004, it’s Said Jaziri, an Islamist preacher, caught
    smuggling himself into the country, or the fact that at least three of the 19 hijackers got false
    drivers licenses, from a day worker counterfeit ring.

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  393. the Tea Party hasn’t spent all these years whining about Paco and Isabella have they? No! They’re very very concerned mostly with the spedndings!

    And not a single stupid R can manage to focus on that.

    All wall street romney wants to yimmer yammer yimmer about is dirty mexicans until someone points out that he’s a big fat illegal immigrant-employing hypocrite and then he pouts and stamps his feet.

    Effing baby.

    Are you listening Mr. wall street romney? I’m tired of hearing about your issues with the illegal mexicans I could literally care less. Mexicans shmexians… when America is rapidly becoming a squalid whorenation what will very very soon look back fondly on the days when people wanted to come here.

    Same goes for Cain. Get a clue pizza boy nobody is waking up every morning consumed with immigrant-hate except for you, wall street romney, and Numbers USA.

    Grow up.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  394. *spendings* I mean

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  395. oh… also that should be *shmexicans*

    sorry

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  396. it’s the South Africa jihadist that crossed the border in 2004…

    If we need to spend a bazillion dollars to build a wall to keep out a dozen ayrabs we’ve already lost.

    As long as Mexico has such abjectly awful government, terrible violence and no jobs, we are going to have people fleeing here. A fence may slow it, but it won’t stop it. We need to accept that Mexico is going to send us an outlandish proportion of immigrants (way above the 7% cap), and find a way to regularize the influx.

    The problem is not that there are so many Mexicans (I hope), but that the legal channels don’t work (if they did, these folks would use them). Fixing that MUST be part of the solution. Note that fixing the immigration system can be done without “amnesty.”

    Kevin M (563f77)

  397. I don’t get this wall argument for keeping determined terrorists out.

    The USA has coasts. It is actually not very difficult to take a boat from Mexico to Louisiana or Alabama.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  398. maybe it’s a magic fence Mr. Dustin

    didn’t think of that didja

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  399. Crappyfeet being another self-loathing tool for La Raza.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  400. Seems to be a good bit of infighting. Good. Please, please don’t support Cain.

    Attack Watch (1fb05a)

  401. Wall Street Romney’s insistence on trying to ride a wave of illegal immigrant hate to the nomination will ultimately prove unhelpful for Team R I think

    and it’s so senseless – the real issues in this election – the mandates they need to be striving to earn – have nothing nothing nothing to do with Mexicans – they have to do with spending and jobs and regulations and energy.

    Everyone already knows Team R hates illegal Mexicans more than the dirty socialists. They don’t need to score extra points.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  402. Everyone knows animal rights hacktivists condone animal attacks as a means of population control.

    Everyone knows Crappyfeet is mad gay.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  403. I’d rather not spend more time arguing with Dustin that numbers from Texas should not be compared to fundamentally different numbers from Massachusetts or other states because of differences in the ways the states operate or present their numbers. Comparisons which don’t pass the pink face test should lead most commenters to automatically suspect something is wrong rather than accept the comparison presented.

    daleyrocks (e56eef)

  404. I’d rather Wall Street Romney and Mr. Cain and Mr. Perry discuss governing principles instead of numbers anyway.

    What are their philosophies about governing? Gloria Vanderbilt’s little boy wasn’t terribly curious was he?

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  405. Vanderbilt’s little boy is guy-curious

    Icy (d634b7)

  406. I’m watching Napolitano (D-TSA) testify to Hatch and Leahy. Surreal. She appears to be the smartest of the three, and I was never a fan of hers. I guess “smarter than a senator” is damning with feint praise.

    Carlitos (9a5c28)

  407. I’m with my redneck relatives from TX. The phrase “worst governor ever” came up re: Perry. I was surprised. Rethuglicans all.

    Carlitos (9a5c28)

  408. How many of the candidates booed a gay soldier in this one?
    Comment by Billiam — 10/19/2011 @ 4:21 pm

    – And the answer is? Zero; a number which matches both, A) the number of times the described action has taken place at ANY of the debates, and, B) the number of dates Yelverton has had where no “fee” was charged up-front.

    Icy (d634b7)

  409. Soundtrack for self-loathing tools of la raza:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ8AS300WH4

    Carlitos (9a5c28)

  410. Suck on it Romney.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  411. Did Napolitano show her boobs?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  412. This is all so depressing. Harold Stassen still dead.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  413. 398-I am on the left and I care about the military. What’s your next strawman argument that I can blow out of the water? That the left doesn’t go to church (I do)? That those on the left don’t have jobs (I do)? Keep them coming!

    Billiam (ae6b6f)

  414. “billiam” has been quite wound up the last couple days.

    JD (d8bee7)

  415. Billyum looking for
    something/anything to blow?
    colonel be right back

    ColonelHaiku (a21a0e)

  416. That seems counterintuitive to say the least, carlitos, Leahy does have a low animal cunning’
    ‘devious and inventive, my kind of scum’ as Jabba
    was want to say.Schultz, the flack in the F&F scandal, and John Podesta, came from his staff.

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  417. good news this morning
    gaddafi sent first class to
    hottest spot in Hell

    ColonelHaiku (a21a0e)

  418. Matt Welch on Mitty’s problem with veracity:

    http://reason.com/archives/2011/10/19/mitt-romneys-lying-problem

    Morrissey has a new post on the illegals featuring Boston Herald reportage.

    Gateway Pundit has one up on the slanders of Perry.

    Wizbang has one on the NV and FL moves with their caucus and primary as coming from the Romney camp, Rubio’s involvement unclear. Purposefully so?

    How’s beating Urkel so urgent again? Cain can’t give a straight, cogent answer to anything. Perry might be in full campaign mode by April.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  419. Cain or Perry both would make decent and helpful presidents I think Mr. gulrud

    we’re far far past the thing about beggars not having the luxury of being all too finicky

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  420. It’s ‘turtles all the way, down’ pikachu.

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  421. that’s a lot of turtles Mr. cormac

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  422. None of these people are armed so they shouldn’t beat up………..unless they are tea partiers

    Eff off hypocrites.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  423. Matt Welch on Mitty’s problem with veracity:

    And it’s not just Mitt himself.

    A couple of his supporters here learned the wrong thing watching the left’s Alinksy tactics.

    They will be trashy and nasty, and then complain if you take it personally. They will spin to a ridiculous degree, and then accuse you of spinning. They will make blanket accusations of ‘Chicago corruption’ and then accuse you of lying about things they know are true but don’t want to give credit for.

    They accuse of what they know they are doing. They see politics as a sport, and Mitt as a team. Never does actual conservatism appear to matter. I think it’s quite sad.

    To these guys, Rick is both way too conservative to be elected, and just as big a RINO as Mitt. TX is successful because of factors Perry gets no credit for, but it’s also not successful at all, and basically just like Massachusetts actually.

    It’s amazing to me that Mitt got such a small number of fans, but they are far more devout. I even wonder if they are really Mitt’s fans, because they are so off putting. Perhaps they wish to taint Mitt by association?

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  424. they shouldn’t be beat up*

    So did any of the GOP nominees tell the OWS protesters to turn their wrath on Obama who makes more money Via Wall Street.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  425. if we chose presidents based on who wanted the office the most Wall Street Romney would win in a landslide

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  426. Yes the OWS people have a right to protest but they don’t have a right to cause a massive riot.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  427. Dustin – Stop whining.

    daleyrocks (e56eef)

  428. if we chose presidents based on who wanted the office the most Wall Street Romney would win in a landslide

    Comment by happyfeet — 10/20/2011 @ 11:22 am

    This is probably true.

    It’s amusing that Mitt’s post debate strategy is to whine that Rick was too mean to him. That’s so unpresidential. But I do feel sorry for him. His supporters are not going him any good.

    Dustin – Stop whining.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 10/20/2011 @ 11:43 am

    You’re projecting again. You have been non-stop complaining about any point made that shows Mitt lacks credibility or success as a political leader.

    You don’t seem to be able to tolerate folks not supporting Mitt, which I imagine is the reason you’re extremely angry lately, claiming I’m homosexual, or that Perry is homosexual. It’s trashy stuff like that which I would never stoop to.

    All I’m doing is noting my reasons for rejecting Mitt and liking Newt and Perry, (and Cain prior to his hostage negotiation foul up). That you have become so angry over our disagreement is very unfortunate. You went from pal to enemy at the drop of a hat. You even explained you were treating Perry the way you think EPWJ treated Palin, as if that makes dishonestly and sleaze OK.

    You should learn to accept people holding Mitt responsible for banning guns, ramping up the gun tax, supporting Roe v Wade as good law, hiking taxes and spending, imposing the health care mandate, wasting billions when that mandate was unsustainable, promising half a trillion more medicare spending, hires church pals he knows employ illegals and that shameful demagoguery that the GOP will abolish Social Security if Romney isn’t nominated. Of course, he’s also shown the reverse attitude when it suits him, leading us to the ultimate summary that Romney wants to win a whole lot more than he wants to honor his own principles.

    I have great reasons to oppose Romney and support Perry, and if you’re going to resort to the trashiest personal attacks, I will call you out until you take some kind of responsibility for your hysterical attitude.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  429. Wow. This is a GREAT ad.

    That’s the thing about a flip flopper. You can use their own words in ads against them. You don’t need much more than that.

    There is no way to counter it. Mitt Romney is amazingly dishonest about Romneycare and Obamacare. There’s no way around this fact. I guess his supporters can just call Perry gay or some other needlessly personal and rude smear, but that’s probably counter productive.

    They also do a fantastic job using Romney’s own reaction to his illegal immigrant lawn care scandal. Retire05 was way ahead of curve on this.

    Romney totally opened the door for this.

    Two predictions: a) the same folks who mocked Perry’s mild and kind tone when bashed from all sides in the first two debates will now mock Perry for attacking Romney. b) Romney will ignore the attack being made, and defend himself from anti-mormon attacks Perry isn’t making. We can call this the Garofalo strategy.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  430. I don’t think Mr. Cain would screw up any hostage negotiatings he was just saying that he’d make a decision on how to proceed based on the facts at the time.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  431. Daleyrocks quit projecting you sanctimonious c*nt.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  432. Bloomberg evaluates whether Perry was honest to claim to be the ‘jobs’ governor.

    They determine that Perry has the “best” record, and Romney comes in “last”.

    Is this election about jobs? If so, Rick Perry can counter Obama’s billion dollar mudslinging campaign with the facts. Romney can’t.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  433. Mr. Biden please to remember that this is a blog of love.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  434. Daleyrocks quit projecting you sanctimonious c*nt.

    Comment by DohBiden — 10/20/2011 @ 12:19 pm

    I don’t think you deserve to be called words like that C word, Daleyrocks. I wouldn’t do that. You do come across as sanctimonious, but I am sure I come across that way too, so I don’t hold that against you.

    Why can’t we just disagree without it being personal? To make that possible, you should acknowledge you were out of line so we can proceed on a much more classy back and forth.

    If you can’t do that, I know we’re just going to have the exact same ugliness over and over again, and frankly, I don’t think anyone wants months of this.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  435. If you think about it, a Perry vs Obama election really pits the best aspects of conservatism vs the worst aspects of liberalism.

    We have conservatism at many levels in Texas, with really good results, and that record would be pitted against liberalism run amok with health care mandates and regulatory extremism and spending and NO JOBS.

    That is why I like Perry. Not because I think Perry is a perfect human being. Because he’s running on his record and his performance and his agenda all together. Not just an agenda that conflicts with his own background.

    Romney vs Obama is a different game, probably requiring nastiness on both sides, with a muddle ideological result, where both promise to do the best job managing and doling out entitlements, neither standing for guns or really convincingly standing up for anything.

    Just two sets of foam columns, one blue, one red.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  436. This Qaddaffi death is causing the rebels to shout God[Allah] is great.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  437. With an Obama vs. Perry match-up, we’d be treated to an inarticulate Perry gulping for air and hoping the voters will swallow anything he can finally spit out.

    ColonelHaiku (264d7a)

  438. My feeling is the Wall Street Romney fans aren’t appreciating how little enthusiasm there is out there for getting behind another squishy hyper-entitled it’s-my-turn McCain figure.

    Been there done that.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  439. A Perry vs Obama campaign really does feel like a referendum on the direction of the country.

    A Romney vs Obama campaign is just a referendum on Obama being an idiot. I can get behind that,too, but let’s not pretend 2012 isn’t a golden opportunity for a pivotal discussion.

    If Bloomberg’s news today is accurate, Cain isn’t even registered on several primary ballots. He is, however, registered for paid speaking engagements outside of the states he needs to campaign in. And he’s not preparing much on several issues.

    Cain is an awesome public speaker and radio personality, but he’s not the not-Romney candidate we should rally behind.

    That leaves Newt vs Perry, and that is a great direction for the Romney rejectors to take.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  440. “Referring to the flap over his comments on abortion during a CNN interview last night, Herman Cain said his remarks were “misconstrued.”

    Noting that the president was limited in what he could do to change abortion laws, Cain emphasized in an interview with Sean Hannity today that he intended to only appoint judges who would be true to the original intent of the Constitution. He said he opposed government funding of abortion and Planned Parenthood. “I am 100 percent pro-life,” he said.

    … Cain also made it clear he won’t be switching his 9 percent federal sales tax to any other kind of tax (Steve Moore has recommended making that a payroll tax) anytime soon. He stressed that people needed to become comfortable with a federal sales tax if the country was eventually going to switch over to say, a 23 percent sales tax. Cain plans to eventually replace his 9-9-9 plan with a fair tax plan.

    Talking about the spat over immigration that occurred between Rick Perry and Mitt Romney, Cain criticized Perry for talking over Romney, an action that Cain said meant Perry had “shot himself in the foot.”

    “I think it reflected negatively on Perry. … I think Mitt handled himself well,” Cain said, commenting that Romney was trying to have a “civil conversation.” ”

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/280863/cain-abortion-comments-misconstrued-katrina-trinko

    ColonelHaiku (264d7a)

  441. The facts…

    http://youtu.be/wbC1oCb8YyE

    ColonelHaiku (264d7a)

  442. Cain really really likes to piss all Perry and fellate Romney.

    That’s just weird.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  443. It seems likely that Wall Street Romney’s already offered Cain the veep slot and Cain is getting pretty excited about the idea of taking over Joe Biden’s duties.

    These people are retarded.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  444. “You’re projecting again. You have been non-stop complaining about any point made that shows Mitt lacks credibility or success as a political leader.’

    Dustin – Heh. Nice try. I’ve been deconstructing your specious arguments and you have a hard time handling it.

    I have not, as you claimed last night, been claiming Massachusetts is more conservative than Texas, or as you have previously claimed that Rick Perry has done a poor job as governor. You are not paying attention when you make those claims.

    If you can’t support your candidate and criticize his opponents in 100 comments or less a thread, I think your man has some credibility issues on his hands.

    daleyrocks (e56eef)

  445. he gets paid by the word, daley.

    ColonelHaiku (264d7a)

  446. DohBiden – Some Beano might help with your cranial flatulence problem. You wouldn’t want to pop any hair plugs would you?

    Ima giver. Thank me later.

    daleyrocks (e56eef)

  447. the beano patent expires in 2014

    I wonder if we’ll have a new president then

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  448. Seriously, I think the Christine O’Donnell threads were less contentious,

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  449. Romney inspires fierce fierce loyalty Mr. cormac

    it’s both his gift and his curse

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  450. Romney could be Papa Shango incarnate and the romneybots would still defend him.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  451. I am impressed with the loyalty he inspires, except we all know it’s not loyalty to Mitt at all, anymore than it was loyalty to Arlen Specter.

    When, not if, but when Mitt becomes a democrat, they will be the most angry about it.

    Their loyalty is really to beating Obama, and they crave centrism as a way to beat him with more votes. Unless they have some other, dumber reason for supporting Mitt, such as a love for flip flops or his particular religion or his black/white stripy ties.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  452. maybe Wall Street Romney would be better off going to work for the Environmental Defense Fund

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  453. Huntsman, maybe, although I don’t think the Democrats will have him, although the travails of
    ‘Charmin Charlie’ may make that clear. One of the links up thread, was Mitt pandering on Yucca Mt,
    to earn the Nevada vote.

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  454. Oh, a little background on the above video. Mitt screaming that jobs are not as important as radical environmentalist hysterics obviously came before his complete flip flop on all issues in 2007. It was 2004, and Mitt was explaining that his MA power plant was killing his citizens, and the jobs it was creating weren’t worth it to Mitt (his record indicates that’s probably true).

    But the plant was never fixed throughout his term of office. No changes were made to it. Mitt was simply acting in front of the cameras in his best Al Gore impersonation (and it was pretty good… you wouldn’t even know he was Republican, which is not a big surprise since it was prior to 2007).

    They have hundreds of videos like this. Obama is praying every night we nominate this guy. Every single group of Americans can be irritated by something Mitt said at some point.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  455. One of the links up thread, was Mitt pandering on Yucca Mt

    Yeah, he’ll even make a play for the Ron Paul vote. It’s kinda disgusting.

    We actually do need government for some things, which are sufficiently complex and of sufficient risk factor. Storing nuclear waste is definitely among those things. It is wise to have a special facility, but Romney’s oft repeated hope for national Romneycare must be washed away, so Romney has turned die hard panderer on this issue.

    All politicians pander to some extent, but none do it so badly as Mitt. He is the least convincing act in the country. That’s why his campaign is spinning its wheels and his supporters amazed that he wins every debate, is right on all issues all the time, with every stat that isn’t ‘dishonest’ showing Mitt to have the most conservative record… yet his polls are unmovable.

    No one believes a word of it.

    We can see how Perry will take a hit or two on some of his positions. At the very least, Rick has calculated he couldn’t pull off a flip flop. In actuality, I don’t think he even considers it. To Mitt’s fans, this means Rick is an idiot. Why continue supporting something that is unpopular, just because you believe in it? What a hick!

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  456. this is me practicing not voting for Romney

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  457. whoa. I have mad not-voting-for Romney skills.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  458. Unless they have some other, dumber reason for supporting Mitt, such as a love for flip flops or his particular religion or his black/white stripy ties.

    Now that’s funny! A deep-in-the-bag-for- Perryite mentioning the word “dumber”.

    ColonelHaiku (264d7a)

  459. The WSJ just called romney a liar

    ummff thats going to do some serious damage

    Also Bain capitals employment filings are being scoured

    Romney’s getting the Gary Hart treatment on illegal immigrants working his mansions and his statements on Obamacare

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  460. Mr. Governor Perry is by no means dumb – he never screeched about evil murderous power plants and he never invented obamacare neither.

    He just creates jobs and lets people go about their business.

    If that’s dumb we need a whole lot more of it.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  461. keep hope alive, johnson!

    ColonelHaiku (264d7a)

  462. Now that’s funny! A deep-in-the-bag-for- Perryite mentioning the word “dumber”.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/20/2011 @ 7:26 pm

    But I’m right.

    You support Mitt because you think the centrist is more electable.

    You explained this a few weeks ago, and I said I respect that because beating Obama is very important, and I simply disagree. This was before you claimed I was dishonest for saying I give Perry credit for cutting education spending. The defense for your accusation was that I’m dishonest because you don’t give Perry credit for this, because in your view Perry was forced to cut education spending instead of raising taxes, raiding the rainy day fund, running a deficit anyway, Cali style, or cutting all agencies but education. But before this, I did explain I respect your view that Romney is more electable. I disagree with it, but it’s not dishonest. I can disagree with an opinion without pretending it’s a lie.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  463. Leading from behind…

    “Results from new Rasmussen poll of likely Iowa caucus-goers: Herman Cain (28 percent), Mitt Romney (21 percent), Ron Paul (10 percent), Newt Gingrich (9 percent), Michele Bachmann (8 percent), and Rick Perry (7 percent).”

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/280778/cain-leads-iowa-katrina-trinko

    ColonelHaiku (264d7a)

  464. Historically is that true, W one might say was more moderate than most of the field in 2000, yet he tied. Ford came close, but no cigar. Nixon, despite
    some of his subsequent moves in office, certainly didn’t have a centrist reputation,

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  465. If that’s dumb we need a whole lot more of it.

    Comment by happyfeet — 10/20/2011 @ 7:30 pm

    I really like this. It’s actually true.

    Maybe it is mentally easier to just say ‘screw you, cut your agency budget, I don’t give a crap, the budget must be balanced’ to everybody, than it is to invent Romneycare and push it on the nation like Romney did (I realize he now denies it).

    Maybe Romney’s micromanaging ambitions do require tremendous brainpower (I kinda wonder if instead, it’s just a ploy to look smart).

    But if it’s really so dumb to run government in the black all the time, let’s make American dumber. We’ve had enough Harvard law grads running this country into the toilet with great brilliance. Maybe it’s not a good idea to amortize the nation’s future and quantitatively ease and whatever else, but just dumbly mutter ‘this is how much we bring in, and that’s how much we can spend’.

    As I’ve linked many times, Romney is promising another half trillion in medicare spending over what Obama wants to spend. I understand how that’s clever. It doesn’t matter that it’s clever to steal from the next generation.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  466. “Was it was before he was before the social programs, from the standpoint of he was…”

    Leaving them scratching their heads.

    ColonelHaiku (264d7a)

  467. Col

    Its a 5 way race – the Rass polls have a 6/7 pt spread difference which means Newt Perry Bachman could be tied with Romney and Cain

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  468. “Perry did really
    throw up all over himself
    in the debate” – Brit

    ColonelHaiku (264d7a)

  469. keep that hope alive, johnson.

    ColonelHaiku (264d7a)

  470. “Not whether or not we are going to have this policy or that policy. …We don’t need any plan.”

    ColonelHaiku (264d7a)

  471. “Results from new Rasmussen poll of likely Iowa caucus-goers: Herman Cain (28 percent), Mitt Romney (21 percent), Ron Paul (10 percent), Newt Gingrich (9 percent), Michele Bachmann (8 percent), and Rick Perry (7 percent).”

    What’s hilarious to me is that Romney was at 30 percent in Iowa in 2007 polls.

    Perry’s got plenty of time to introduce himself and distinguish himself from corn subsidy loving Romney, who panders so often I have yet to come up short of finding new examples to make fun of. What’s Mitt’s excuse? The career politician/smartest man in the world has been campaigning for half a decade, and moved backwards according to your own poll.

    He’s been a campaigner for 17 years, and he’s won how many elections? 1? Yeah, kinda hard for a panderer who can’t execute to win more than once.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  472. Nevada GOP Chairwoman Amy Tarkanian: “A lot of people that were sitting by me were hoping that he would just calm down. He seemed very agitated.”

    Yay, Coach Tark!

    ColonelHaiku (264d7a)

  473. I am wondering if it would be rude to cross reference Romney’s appearance at a Planned Parenthood fundraiser and promising never to waver supporting the “good law” of Roe v Wade against his shrieking to dirty hippies at a power plant that he will ‘never create jobs that kill people’ with the evils of making electricity.

    It’s pretty funny if you think about it.

    Not to funny when you imagine Obama’s campaign using both Romneys on all issues, ticking off just about everybody.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  474. argh. “to” is the most annoying typo.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  475. If you want a laugh, check out the Tarkanian political donation records.

    Reid and Romney.

    Hmmm.

    Reid and Romney. How strange.

    It’s very strange. The son runs against Sharon Angle, loses, and then other Tarkanians rally behind Harry Reid.

    Tarkanian, a Las Vegas city councilwoman, joined other women in a Las Vegas café yesterday to denounce comments made by Angle, who in October said it was an “acceptable thing” when “one parent stays home with the children and the other provides financial support.”

    The GOP has a lot of sickness in it. Rick Perry won’t get a break from any Murkowskis or Scozzafavas in the GOP, that’s for sure.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  476. Would it be rude to cross reference Perry speaking to La Raza?

    daleyrocks (e56eef)

  477. why does it always come back to ohnoes dirty mexicans

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  478. “464.Seriously, I think the Christine O’Donnell threads were less contentious”

    Aww, come on, I’ve been practically silent.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  479. Would it be rude to cross reference Perry speaking to La Raza?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 10/20/2011 @ 7:57 pm

    Frankly, no. La Raza is racist and Perry should take some strong criticism of even acknowledging them.

    However, Perry did speak about securing the border, to these folks.

    “Until America secures the border, a rational debate on immigration policy is not going to happen,”


    This is not much of a pander
    to the open borders folks.

    I think it’s pretty cool that Perry had the same thing to say to La Raza that he says in the GOP debates. It’s like he actually says what he believes. What kind of game is that?

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  480. why does it always come back to ohnoes dirty mexicans

    Comment by happyfeet — 10/20/2011 @ 7:59 pm

    There’s only one reason. Cynicism about how the American people think. This is a serious indication of how these two men would handle those very hard calls that they know will cost them politically if they take the right path as they age quickly and their hair greys.

    Perry wants to secure the border, but he doesn’t want to be the most badass mofo joking about electrified people, or bash vague incentives while illegals work 11 hour shifts on his rose bushes for crap pay. To him, border security is a practical and serious matter worth the most honest solution, instead of placebos like an electrified fence that Coyotes would drive a truck through on the first day.

    It’s not the illegals we should be pissed at. If my kid was hungry, yeah, I’d do it too.

    It’s the bastards who hire these people because doing so is a great way to get lawn care are prices so low they can’t be beat by legal workers.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  481. That would not only be rude, daley, it would be heartless!

    ColonelHaiku (264d7a)

  482. http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.php?cid=N00009922&cycle=2010&type=I&newMem=N&recs=100

    TARKANIAN, JERRY
    LAS VEGAS,NV 89107 RETIRED/RETIRED 9/30/09 $2,000 Recipient: Tarkanian, Danny (R)

    TARKANIAN, LOIS
    LAS VEGAS,NV 89107 CITY OF LAS VEGAS/COUNCILWOMAN 4/15/10 $1,000 Recipient: Tarkanian, Danny (R)

    ColonelHaiku (264d7a)

  483. It’s the CSers who provide in-state tuition to these illegal immigrant people because doing so is a great way to reward their unlawful actions as well as buy votes from liberal voters.

    ColonelHaiku (264d7a)

  484. So what is the plan to save CA?

    Move out in the middle of the night like “Scanners”?

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  485. Haiku, your search leaves out a lot of donations, I notice.

    To Dana Titus, Bill Richardson, and Jill Derby (all democrats).

    However, I still made an error suggesting Amy Tarkanian supported Reid. It was Lois Tarkanian who said she would support Reid “any way she can” after Angle defeated her son in the primary.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  486. Some more self hating overtures to La Raza.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  487. Wasn’t Ho Chi Minh a communist killer?

    Hecuva job in getting your support there OWS.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  488. It’s the CSers who provide in-state tuition to these illegal immigrant people because doing so is a great way to reward their unlawful actions as well as buy votes from liberal voters.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/20/2011 @ 8:29 pm

    Buy votes from liberals?

    I think you mean from conservatives. Texas is a relatively conservative state, after all. And this measure was popular here. It was the federal government’s fault they are here, and we can’t deport them… that’s also the fed’s fault.

    So… we educate them so our state doesn’t become a hellhole. It’s a practical matter.

    And yes, it’s also an incentive, albeit stats seem to show it has no effect. The only thing that seems to have an effect is availability of jobs.

    It’s jobs illegals come for, not some long term plan. Many even hope to return home, such as several of the Guatamalans who worked 11 hour shifts spreading cow manure on Mitt Romney’s azaleas.

    Yes, those who hire illegals are the reason they come here.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  489. including 2008…

    TARKANIAN, LOIS
    LAS VEGAS,NV 89107 CITY OF LAS VEGAS/COUNCILWOMAN 10/28/08 $250 Recipient: Titus, Dina (D)

    TARKANIAN, LOIS H
    LAS VEGAS,NV 89107 CITY OF LAS VEGAS/COUNCIL WOMAN 5/8/07 $1,000
    Recipient: Richardson, Bill (D)

    TARKANIAN, LOIS H
    LAS VEGAS,NV 89107 CITY OF LAS VEGAS/CITY COUNCILWOMAN 9/9/08 $600
    Recipient: Derby, Jill T (D)

    This ranks right up there with the lawncare BS. It’s this sort of happy horsesh*t that calls everything you write into question. You really don’t embarrass easy.

    ColonelHaiku (264d7a)

  490. She has dozens more donations to democrats, but there’s no point, because as I said, I was mistaken about Amy and noted it. She supported Angle, and she’s the one you’re suggesting she takes Romney’s side in this case.

    Her mom supports Reid (and claimed to do so any way she could).

    It’s this sort of happy horsesh*t that calls everything you write into question. You really don’t embarrass easy.

    Why? I admitted I was mistaken about Amy.

    This ranks right up there with the lawncare BS.

    In what way is Mitt’s lawncare scandal BS? What misrepresentation have I made about that?

    Mitt Romney’s friend from church, with government contracts and Mitt’s mansion care contract fulfills with illegal labor, is exposed as completely contemptuous of the notion of documenting his workers are legal. A year later, after Mitt has taken responsibility for making sure this never happens again, Mitt still has non english speaking Guatamalens working 11 hour shifts for crappy wages, and it turns out, unsurprisingly, he’s done nothing to make sure they aren’t illegal (and they are illegal, no surprise).

    There’s nothing BS there. The guy knowingly employed illegals. He knew it before the first 2006 story. It’s that obvious.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  491. including 2008…

    Why just 2008?

    Oh, because of all the other donations you are ignoring.

    Same reason you limited your other search.

    Your surgical ability to avoid the facts that prove you wrong is too consistent to be an accident. You knew Lois promised to support Harry Reid any way she could (which I take to mean donations). BTW, open secrets is not a complete record, so if someone campaigns for Reid and promises to do all she can for him, open secrets not having a record of the donation does not prove it didn’t exist.

    But again, I was mistakenly conflating the Amy you are suggesting is on Romney’s side with her mother, the person most famous for being a Reid supporter.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  492. btw, still waiting for you to prove I was lying about Texas cutting education spending, Colonel Haiku, as you claimed.

    Your weasel out that you just don’t feel like giving Perry credit, so that proves I’m dishonest, just doesn’t cut it.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  493. Also, I don’t recall Daleyrocks showing this point to be wrong prior to you saying he did “many times”, so can you link him doing so prior to your comment that he did “many times”?

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  494. List all of the Tarkanians’ transgressions, if you think you have them all. Don’t be mealy-mouthed about it. I gave you the link. Just do it.

    ColonelHaiku (264d7a)

  495. List all of the Tarkanians’ transgressions, if you think you have them all. Don’t be mealy-mouthed about it. I gave you the link. Just do it.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/20/2011 @ 9:21 pm

    Do what? I was trying to show the same person supports both Reid and Romney, but the person you said supported Romney is Amy, and I was going off a memory of the famous Reid supporter whose son lost the primary to Angle. She promised to do all she can to help Reid.

    You first rebutted my point with a link that excluded the dozens of donations to democrats. I noted three of them, and you surgically included only those three, as though you didn’t notice all the others.

    But my point was wrong. Amy and Lois were different people, and I noted my error, so the same person didn’t support Romney and Reid after all.

    That’s why I said I am mistaken. Which is what I do when I realize I am mistaken, because I’m an honorable person, Haiku.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  496. I get the feeling you want to continue talking about something I admitted error on almost an hour ago because discussing something that isn’t relevant is better than talking about something than it, when it comes to Mitt.

    You said “This ranks right up there with the lawncare BS.”

    Well, I was wrong on Amy, so you must be saying I’m wrong on the “lawncare BS”.

    How am I wrong on the lawncare BS? I think the way you’ve tried to prove it is to just toss that in there with no basis.

    Did Romney know he had non english speaking workers paid crap for 11 hour shifts, working for a man who is quoted by the Globe being dishonest about our immigration laws? Yes. Did Romney keep patronizing this creep? Yes. Was Romney’s explanation pretty revealing of a lack of character?

    “We went to the company, and we said, ‘Look, you can’t have any illegals working on our property,’” Romney said. “I’m running for office, for Pete’s sake, I can’t have illegals.”

    Well, in my extremely biased opinion, yes.

    That’s why I admit I was wrong about Amy. I was. I was relying on my memory and didn’t realize there was another person with the same last name in that state. I recalled Angle was not supported very well by the establishment GOP in that state and I made an error, which I corrected unprompted.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  497. I posted before I finished my comment.

    I was going to say that there is a major different in the issue I’m willing to admit I was wrong on, and this lawncare issue, which I don’t understand how I’m mistaken about.

    Lots of people who knowingly have illegals working in their homes have excuses. In fact, Romney has no such excuse, since it was pointed out to him a year before it was pointed out again in the exact same way.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  498. let me know if one of my typos has made it difficult to follow something I said. Sorry ’bout that.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  499. Just for the record, see how Haiku asks me to back up an argument, and I acknowledge I was mistaken (technically, I noted it before he asked, but that’s not important).

    This is how I think people should handle their mistakes. Quick and painless.

    If I were in his shoes, I would say ‘yeah, I was wrong, Mitt had illegal immigrant lawn care, and he obviously knew enough to stop it’ or ‘yeah, I was wrong, Perry did choose education spending to cut among the various other options folks were screaming for him to take’

    Then we could just be two honest people talking about our different opinions.

    ——-

    Back to more interesting stuff, Steve Forbes says he’s leaning towards endorsing Perry because he’s impressed with what Perry’s done in the past, and impressed with Perry’s tax proposal as the best he’s heard in a long time. Perry favors scrapping the current tax code in favor of a flat tax, btw.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  500. So, Lois seems like that idiosyncratic member of the McClellan, Carole Strayhorn, in light of the food fight, that we’ve seen here, where frankly none of the three candidates, really impress much;

    http://conservatives4palin.com/2011/10/governor-palin-will-reportedly-be-the-keynote-speaker-for-the-republican-party-of-floridas-victory-dinner-on-november-3rd-in-disney.html

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  501. Yes, Ian. That’s probably about right.

    My memory was different than reality in this case.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  502. It’s actually worse, than you thought, I recall that
    Sarah’s parents each supported one of the other
    members in the primary, that’s why she didn’t endorse who became the eventual winner when Lowden’s campaign disintegrated.

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  503. There really is something fundamentally wrong with a party that often doesn’t appear to stand for anything.

    I suspect the ideals I have, and the ideals of the bona fide Romney fan, are just completely contradictory. Part of the problem is the democrats are so damn out there at this point that folks who ought to be center-left are currently moderate Republicans.

    I see certain issues as difficult to compromise on, which to someone who actually likes the contrary view, seems absurd.

    Makes me wonder about Leviticus’s PR system.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  504. No, that’s not the solution, the Party is alive,but the apparatus, is in Eliot’s immortal words,
    ‘hollow men’ This has certainly been true since Goldwater, when he got the nomination, but not
    before the establishment ‘shanked’ him, long before Johnson finished him off.

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  505. Inadvertently, you make my point for me, Colonel,

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  506. Ya know, Haiku, your link shows that Perry is outraising Romney. And at the end of the day, it appears to be a two man race from an organizational standpoint.

    It’s not really Perry vs Romney. It’s Perry vs the other not-Romney.

    And isn’t it dog bites man that after a huge moment of donations, there would be a major drop off? Imagine what that chart would look like had there been no drop off. It would be ridiculous to expect that.

    And, with the third-quarter clock ticking, Perry’s fundraising rebounded as well. He raised $3.7 million during the final week of the quarter, his FEC reports show. His challenge now is to keep it up.

    That’s what I see in the chart. Perry had a surge when he entered the race, then a low point from which he has been steadily increasing.

    And this is before the debate smackdown of Romney that many have noted was a remarkable improvement and you have quoted a few people as saying Perry won if I’m not mistaken.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  507. Mr. Romney has generally espoused the opposing view—smaller government, fewer regulations, opportunity—but only timidly. This hobbles his ability to go head to head with the president, to make the moral and philosophical case for that America.

    That is from Ian’s link (which is a great editorial). This is what I’ve been trying to explain. Romney just isn’t the leader we need at this moment. He doesn’t even want to be. He’s been whining about Perry being offensive or being mean or whatever, and whining that Obama is clueless, and all that’s fine for what it is, but leadership? None. Very rarely has Romney actually stood up and took a difficult stand. He’s a joiner once the right answer is established. The only times I’ve ever seen him show true feelings is in defense of himself.

    Mr. Romney isn’t the first Republican to develop Guilty Syndrome, and one option would be to form a support group with, say, George H.W. Bush.

    It’s like Kim Strassel is living in my brain. Only 100X more articulate.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  508. #508… “Why just 2008?

    Oh, because of all the other donations you are ignoring.

    Same reason you limited your other search.

    Your surgical ability to avoid the facts that prove you wrong is too consistent to be an accident. You knew Lois promised to support Harry Reid any way she could (which I take to mean donations). BTW, open secrets is not a complete record, so if someone campaigns for Reid and promises to do all she can for him, open secrets not having a record of the donation does not prove it didn’t exist.” – Comment by Dustin — 10/20/2011 @ 9:14 pm

    #516… “Just for the record, see how Haiku asks me to back up an argument, and I acknowledge I was mistaken (technically, I noted it before he asked, but that’s not important)…”
    Comment by Dustin — 10/20/2011 @ 9:51 pm

    Oh, and just for the record, see how Dustin beeches, moans and implies that there’s a sordid history of Tarkanian family campaign donations and when asked to back it up with the facts, he minces off to the next display of mendacity?

    ColonelHaiku (264d7a)

  509. It’s like Kim Strassel is living in my brain.

    previously unoccupied dwelling…

    ColonelHaiku (264d7a)

  510. Previously unoccupied dwelling.

    Hahahahahaha………….No just no.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  511. Oh, and just for the record, see how Dustin beeches, moans and implies that there’s a sordid history of Tarkanian family campaign donations and when asked to back it up with the facts, he minces off to the next display of mendacity?

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/21/2011 @ 5:48 am

    I linked the basis for my comment, which was someone saying they would support Reid in every possible way they could, which I did assume to mean donations. This is obviously a good faith interpretation.

    But I also noted I was completely mistaken to think this was the same person as the one you were suggesting was taking Romney’s side.

    I have now noted my error five times, the first coming independent of your noting I was wrong.

    This is not ‘mincing off’. This is good faith.

    I guess you’re declining to back up your claims or note you were mistaken?

    Funny how I’m always the one backing up my arguments and answering challenges, or at least admitting error, and you’re not even trying.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  512. col

    You have to face it when the WALL STREET journal, says that WALL STREET Mitt, isnt the one.

    I mean, they could have decided Perry wasnt the leader but they didnt they chose to write that Romney isnt the leader

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  513. I mean Romney has had several years to make the sale and he’s slipping – sure Perry has stumbled but that was a full on assault by just about everyone and now I have polls here showing it a 4 to 5 way race

    When you have soo many candidates in a race they are always difficult to poll especially when people are not really committed – what Ras didnt mention in their last poll was that Perry was the last name on the list given to respondents

    So who knows, who really knows

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  514. And i’m not shilling for Perry, in faact if by some miracle he asked me what to do and would tell him to drop it – its not woth it – the power is really with congress and work on congressional races especially the senate

    Congress doesnt honor the presidents budget anymore they have done their own thing since Bush 41

    But my point is that the newspaper of record in Romneys core business experience has basically called him a total liar and not to be president

    To me, thats game over

    EricPWJohnson (d84fb0)

  515. “Funny how I’m always the one backing up my arguments and answering challenges, or at least admitting error, and you’re not even trying.”

    Funny, I see things in a very different light. Not with respect the this specific point under discussion in the thread.

    daleyrocks (e56eef)

  516. Funny, I see things in a very different light. Not with respect the this specific point under discussion in the thread.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 10/21/2011 @ 6:48 am

    You’re the guy who actually made a point of explaining that you refuse to answer questions, and then made a point of demanding I do so (and for some reason, I did).

    So yes, the light is obviously different for you.

    Colonel Haiku said you explained to me several times why I am dishonest in my point that Perry cut education spending instead of alternative solutions that were politically easier. I’ve asked him to show me where you did this. Did you?

    I don’t recall anything showing any aspect of what I said there was untrue.

    You’ve also made clear you think Mitt doesn’t deserve responsibility for knowing there were illegals working on his lawn for 11 hour shifts for years, despite my showing he was well informed of this fact for at least a year, and also informed that his crony buddy didn’t give a crap about legal status and had government contracts.

    Can you explain how someone doesn’t deserve responsibility for their own assurance the problem will be resolved? Is that how Romney would handle his duties as President?

    Not with respect the this specific point under discussion in the thread.

    Right, because I obviously am discussing in good faith if I admit when I’m mistaken and can show a good faith basis for my error.

    Fact is, you don’t have to be a liar to think Mitt Romney has a very bad record. I know you have that irrational stat showing Massachusetts is about as conservative as Texas on taxation, but you don’t seriously think anyone who disagrees with that is a liar.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  517. I don’t really care about Mitt’s illegal worker problem except for it’s neat how when people bring it up he turns funny colors

    happyfeet (3c92a1)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 1.3357 secs.