Patterico's Pontifications

10/6/2011

It’s a new type of campaigning altogether

Filed under: 2012 Election — Karl @ 10:04 am



[Posted by Karl]

All together: “It’s a new type of campaigning!”

On a whirlwind trip through New York City this week that marked the beginning of a nearly monthlong book tour, Herman Cain chatted with the hosts of ABC’s “The View,” promoted his new memoir on Fox News, met local titans like Donald Trump, shared ideas with former Mayor Edward I. Koch and enjoyed power lunching in Midtown.

Mr. Cain, a contender for the Republican presidential nomination, did all but one thing — campaign. Not in the traditional meet-the-public and kiss-the-babies sense, anyway.

And according to his public campaign calendar of events, where 19 of the 31 days of October are blank, there will not be much glad-handing in the immediate future. That is just fine with Mr. Cain, a former business executive who has recently surged to the top tier of candidates in early polls. ***

***

But it is not clear that Mr. Cain, 65, has any particular plan to seize this moment, beyond using the attention to sell books. Like the other candidates vying to become credible alternatives to Mr. Romney and Mr. Perry, Mr. Cain is operating on a shoestring. He raised $2 million last spring. More money is coming in, he said, and he has 40 staff members, mostly in Southern states. Still, an adviser to the campaign said the campaign had only four people working in Iowa, and there is no plan to change strategy.

Ah, yes: a new type of campaigning.  Remember Fred Thompson? He was going to do a new type of campaign based on new media and such.  He was not keen on retail politics. His campaign did not end well.

How about Newt Gingrich?  His campaign seems to involve vacationing and promoting a book and a documentary.  After his campaign team resigned en masse, Newt explained: “There is a fundamental strategic difference between the traditional consulting community and the kind of campaign I want to run.”  He is currently running a new and exciting kind of fourth-place campaign, based mostly on the goodwill of those who like him attacking the establishment moderators of the GOP debates.

Many of Gingrich’s campaign staff, notably Dave Carney, jumped to Rick Perry’s campaign.  Is Perry is arguably trying a new sort of campaign?  It remains to be seen whether Perry’s campaign tactics, scientifically tested in statewide elections, scale to a national campaign.  However, the political scientists who conducted experiments within the campaign advised Perry that what matters most is old skool retail politics, which is the sort of approach expected in early GOP contests like Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina.

And what of Sarah Palin, who announced yesterday she would not run in 2012?  Last month, she was still claiming she did not believe she needed an old-style campaign based on county chairmen, finance committees, endorsements, and months of hand-shaking.  Palin apparently thought she could piggyback on book and movie promotions (a la Gingrich) and reap the benefits of a late entry (a la Thompson and arguably Perry).  Palin apparently thought better of the idea.

Similarly, we were told that if Donald Trump actually ran for president, it would be based on television and social media.  The Donald is not a hand-shaker.  And, as it turned out, not a candidate for the GOP nomination.

Every four years, we get to complain about the self-importance of those in Iowa and New Hampshire and their demands for retail politics.  We get to complain that two small states, in many ways unrepresentative of the nation in general, have a disproportionate influence on the nomination process.  However, the process has not changed for 2012.  Increasingly, there are candidates or phantom candidates who think they can buck the system, but the track record of these candidacies or phantom candidacies has not been good.  Accordingly, when I see that Cain’s communications director and her assistant have resigned to pursue other  professional opportunities at the moment where he has decided to promote a book rather than capitalize in more traditional ways on surging poll numbers, my eyebrow arches.

–Karl

438 Responses to “It’s a new type of campaigning altogether”

  1. Ding!

    Karl (f07e38)

  2. that’s a real head-scratcher cause it’s not like Mr. Herman needs the book money

    I don’t get it

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  3. /yawn

    why did Palin quit when she did? Because Christie was her last chance to split the Romney vote.
    Romney’s your man Karl.

    good luck with that.
    America will elect a scientologist before electing a MORMON.
    hahaahah

    wheeler's cat (b503a7)

  4. It will be interesting to see how it all works out versus President O’Blameless’s Fear and Loathing of Republicans and Congress National Demagoguery Tour.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  5. Two digit fashionista muslim twit

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  6. America will elect a scientologist before electing a MORMON.

    I always hear this crap. Americans won’t elect a black man. Americans won’t elect another Texan. Americans won’t elect a mormon.

    Face it: that’s complete BS. Romney is beating Obama in the polls. If religion is an issue, Obama loses anyway.

    Nobody out there wakes up at night with a nightmare that their boss is a Mormon, or that the Mormons are going to oppress them.

    In fact, Romney would probably benefit greatly from this issue, as the lowlifes trying to persecute him for his religion created sympathy in voters such as myself for Romney.

    Wheeler, you simply do not understand what you’re talking about. This is a great country that just doesn’t work in the fashion to think it does.

    There are very good reasons to prefer Cain to Romney. Religion isn’t one.

    why did Palin quit when she did? Because Christie was her last chance to split the Romney vote.

    Perhaps. But now Palin won’t be splitting the GOP vote. Did you look at that poll showing Romney in the lead? Palin got 9%, which is more than Romney’s lead, if I recall correctly.

    If the other candidates can’t beat Romney, that says a lot about their inability to run for national office. Romney should be rather easy to beat. There’s a reason even Mccain beat him despite a tremendous disadvantage with financiers.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  7. Surely you can’t be serious.

    Mitch (341ca0)

  8. DON’T CALL ME SERIOUS

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  9. ‘No it’s don’t call me shirley’

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  10. Nishi gettin’ her Mormon hate on.

    That affair with Larry O’Donnell should commence in 3, 2, 1 . . .

    Icy Texan (539177)

  11. nishi’s comments do not deserve any serious consideration.

    She’s only here as a griefer.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  12. Steven Hayward (PowerLine) on Romney….

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/10/the-eternal-cluelessness-of-the-romney-mind.php

    …this is going to leave a mark.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (49563e)

  13. Romney is a hair-do with a checkbook kinda like Ashton Kutcher with less product placement

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  14. I don’t see why conservatives are hating on Romney, Perry or Cain just because they support one more than the other. Pointing out policy differences are good but personal attacks don’t help and certainly won’t convince anyone to agree with you. If you really believe in conservative values then let your values speak for you, not your hate.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  15. #16 Is Hate a Value?

    My Bowels Hurt (8d652e)

  16. Not a good one.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  17. Did murdoch say he only hired Palin because she is a hot neo-con?

    One of the ignorant romneytards said that.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  18. “If you really believe in conservative values then let your values speak for you, not your hate.”

    DRJ – Completely agree. And evaluate the candidates by the same standards, not rigged numbers.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  19. 14) That was a little odd because Heyward is actually a relative of Romney.

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  20. ian – If you read the article embedded in Heywards post, it’s not as bad as the title implies.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  21. Romneybots telling us to let go of the hate?

    Lol irony

    DohBiden (d54602)

  22. Great link, Drew.

    Even now, after months of seeing Romney demogogue, I keep running into new examples.

    I was largely unfamiliar with Romney’s global warming whining your link quoted, for example. Cap and tax and whining about how we need it for ‘immediate progress in the battle’ is laughably stupid.

    Is Romney that stupid? I don’t think so. Just lacking in other values.

    It would be nice of Romney’s detractors could present their views free of personal disgust for the man, but that’s not possible, because Romney is a shameless politician. There are better ways to argue against Romney than personal attacks, but those attacks are so fair and so satisfying.

    Daleyrocks is right. Let’s evaluate the politicians by the same standards. Tax and spend global warming hysterics who are gun grabbing health insurance mandate nannies who lie to our faces about their own principles should be exposed with complete honesty.

    I can’t stand Romney. I know there’s a chance he’ll be the nominee and I’ll have to support him against the worse Obama, but every time this nation needed leadership in the past several years, Romney has shut up and waited for a consensus before arriving last to say what better men and women said when there was a risk.

    Where was Romney when Obamacare was being debated? Where was Romney during the shutdown debacle and debt ceiling crisis? How many times has it been apparent he’s MIA?

    This man is fundamentally unserious about thinking for himself, or offering anything outside a narrow range of conventional opinion

    Exactly. A majority of Republicans do not want Romney to be the nominee for that simple reason.

    The guy raised taxes in a dozen ways while claiming he wasn’t raising taxes… just fees or former loopholes that citizens and businesses pay to the government even though the MA tax rate is already far too high, and spending is not being cut.

    All the guy has on his side is slick talk and fuzzy math and papering over massive budget gaps. Do we want to keep stealing from the next generation? I want a balanced budget amendment instead.

    Perry and Romney faced a similar need to keep taxes low. Perry lowered spending. Romney reinvented the English language.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  23. Romneybots telling us to let go of the hate?

    Lol irony

    Comment by DohBiden — 10/6/2011 @ 12:34 pm

    DRJ is no one’s bot. She’s got to be the most respected commenter here.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  24. BTW, you know what support for Romney reminds me of? Arlen Specter’s 2004 primary.

    There is a very similar set of support from the establishment. A lot of the people lining up for Romney now lined up for Specter then as he barely took his primary win.

    we warned them, and we were right. We’re right about Romney, too. I would vote for Specter against a more liberal democrat, but it’s a terrible compromise and that compromise has long term implications for the Tea Party and this nation, which is really in deep trouble on spending.

    Perry has the answer. Balance the budget, and impose a legal doctrine for balancing the budget, despite the other procedural problems this causes. The gains outweigh the costs, but this is precisely the kind of reform that the establishment does not want and can hamper with the mealy mouth crap we’re all used to hearing.

    That’s what this primary is about. Balancing the budget in order to get this monster government to finally shrink back off employers and citizens.

    What side are you on?

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  25. heyya Karl.
    member back to PW and when i predicted O would win in 2008?
    when i liked Nate and you liked Rasmussen?
    newsflash, guy.
    Romney cant win because hes a MORMON and some part of the republican/teabagger/glibertarian base just wont vote for a MORMON.

    wheeler's cat (b503a7)

  26. wheeler’s cat, if its the GOP that hates mormons so much, why is it that its the Liberal pundits always talking about it?

    Bigotry against religious people is a Left wing trait.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  27. some part of the republican/teabagger/glibertarian base just wont vote for a MORMON.

    Vs Obama? You really think that?

    You are clueless about this country. We’re not the pack of rabid bigots you seem to think we are. If anything, anti mormon nonsense brought justified sympathy to Romney in 2008.

    I doubt Karl predicted the GOP was a sure win in 2008. We all knew we were headed for a hard year after 2006.

    And Rasmussen is a great pollster. Sorry, bud.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  28. I support Perry and I hope he’s the nominee, but Republicans in general need to support whoever wins. Hating isn’t going to make that more likely.

    daley — I agree rigged numbers aren’t good, but what numbers are rigged?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  29. As for Karl’s post, I agree Perry is running a different kind of campaign and I think that’s part of why Karl Rove is against him. If Perry wins, it will make Rove’s political skills much less valuable. It’s a fascinating experiment and a big gamble, but that’s how real change often comes about.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  30. Considering I stopped blogging at PW before the conventions, let alone the Wall St meltdown, pretty sure wheeler’s cat is hallucinating. But if she has a link, I’d be glad to see it.

    Karl (f07e38)

  31. Republicans in general need to support whoever wins. Hating isn’t going to make that more likely.

    You’re right.

    It’s my hope it doesn’t come to Romney asking the conservatives to support him. I think that’s why we lost in 2006. The GOP doesn’t work at all if people don’t have confidence it stands for something responsible.

    Alas, dissing Romney just feels like the right thing to do. I am so tired of these two faced politicians who think the voters are stupid and they can just wave a magic wand of rhetoric over us so we forget what they said yesterday.

    What happened to patriotism? Just, for better or worse, own your positions and why you did ’em. If Perry thinks people are heartless for having my position on education illegals, just tell it to me straight and let me decide if I can tolerate that deviation from my opinions.

    We are in too much trouble as a country to have leaders whose sole ambition is winning. these people should aspire to more than ‘I am so great that things will work well just because I’m there.’

    Every time I bash Romney or read a much better bash from a more skilled pundit, I regret that this helps Obama in that indirect way. Beating Obama is not objective one for me, so I keep doing it.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  32. According to Gallup, the group least likely to vote for a Mormon for president is… Democrats.

    Karl (f07e38)

  33. Karl – here is the link http://www.nishiisadroolingmoron.com

    JD (17012e)

  34. Tea baggers?

    LOATHESOME PIG!!!

    DohBiden (d54602)

  35. As for Karl’s post, I agree Perry is running a different kind of campaign and I think that’s part of why Karl Rove is against him. If Perry wins, it will make Rove’s political skills much less valuable. It’s a fascinating experiment and a big gamble, but that’s how real change often comes about.

    Comment by DRJ — 10/6/2011 @ 12:51 pm

    I recall Rove and Perry had a huge falling out over how to run a LT Gov campaign.

    It’s hard to grant Perry a lot of points for political instincts these days, given his gaffes, but I am encouraged that you and Karl think there may be something smart going on here.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  36. One of the ignorant romneytards said that.
    Comment by DohBiden — 10/6/2011 @ 12:11 pm

    Ignorant people say a lot of things that are just…
    ignorant!

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (49563e)

  37. Karl is right.

    When I encounter a truly outspoken anti Mormon bigot, it’s a lefty like the kids in this image.

    In today’s world, social conservatives are fighting a battle against some very extreme corrosive attitudes, and I think we find Mormons to be allies.

    BTW, I did not know that gorgeous church in San Diego was Mormon until I googled Mormon bigotry and saw a lot of Californians being jerks. That is a sweet building.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  38. The campaign is way, way, way too long.

    Has Urkel been in front of the cameras enough? Does he continue to command our attention?

    Clinton in ’91 got in mid-Oct. Reagan in ’79 mid-Nov. Otherwise the first-time winners beginning with Eisenhower got in Jan. the year of election.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  39. some part of the republican/teabagger/glibertarian base just wont vote for a MORMON.

    That must be why Harry Reid’s a Dem, other than the fact that he believes in Big-Govt/Crony Socialism, that is.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (49563e)

  40. That person was on hit air Drew relax.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  41. Comment by DRJ — 10/6/2011 @ 12:51 pm

    I will have less problem voting for Mitt, if he is the nominee, than I had voting for McCain (actually, I did not vote for McCain, I voted for Sarah) in ’08.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (49563e)

  42. hot air*

    these tard protesters are protesting Obama but they won’t admit it.

    And no we do not have the same frustrations as the protesters.

    And did you hear the thug in chief threatening to have his goons run the repubs out of town?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  43. That is a sweet building.
    Comment by Dustin — 10/6/2011 @ 1:06 pm

    You should see the one in West L.A. (Westwood), it too is stunning, and created a huge amount of local angst when built.

    But, if the West-Siders didn’t have angst, they would have no emotion at all – typically liberal/leftist.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (49563e)

  44. let’s pray it doesn’t come down to where we’re faced with having Miss Mittens on the ballot

    let’s pray really really hard

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  45. 34. So I’m a bigot because I consider certain areas of inquiry, shemas making sense of the world, central to one’s world view and, by definition, religions(limited to those with a higher being at their center) are not credible overarching determinants of a reasonable world view?

    Can I vote based on taste in popular music without enduring your disdain? Christie sucks because Springsteen sucks and I’ve never bought an album or played a tune of the no-talent grease bag.

    Is that Ok or am I a bigot there too?

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  46. Nishi may be right that (some) Republicans can’t stand Mormons. But she’s forgetting their dislike of Obama is even greater.
    Palin apparently thought she could piggyback on book and movie promotions (a la Gingrich) and reap the benefits of a late entry (a la Thompson and arguably Perry). Palin apparently thought better of the idea.
    I think you’re misunderstanding Palin’s goals here, which she’s said rather plainly in the last couple of weeks. She wants to be the nation’s demagogue. I know that word usually has a negative connotation, but I mean it here in a very literal sense–one who speaks for the people. I’m in general not positive on Palin, and I think part of it may be sham/wanting to wield power from the sidelines–but she seems to see her role as articulating ‘real American’ values and trying to force the Republican Party, if not the entire political system, in her preferred direction.

    JBS (510a0a)

  47. Comment by DohBiden — 10/6/2011 @ 1:12 pm

    I didn’t have time to listen, I was too busy reloading.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (49563e)

  48. Did anyone compare obama to hitler?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  49. JBS, she has to be a “demogogue”, she’s too young to be a “curmudgeon”.

    One saving grace, if she’s going to be a scold, at least she’s on the positive side of the “attractive chart”, unlike that person from Cambridge running for U.S.Senate, who would seem more at home manning the barricades of OWS.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (49563e)

  50. Well I did and he threatened to have his goons run the repubs out of the town for not agreeing with his ultra-left peronista agenda.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  51. Dustin,

    I have no idea who will win — John Podheretz is sure it won’t be Perry — but I think Perry is running a good campaign. I’m pleased with Perry’s stand on immigration, that the Texas state tax revenues have rebounded to pre-recession levels (and I give Perry’s conservative approach to government some credit for that), and especially that Perry is running a fiscally conservative campaign. If he’s willing to be austere when his own future is at stake, it gives me renewed hope that he will hold to that principle if elected President.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  52. Comment by gary gulrud — 10/6/2011 @ 1:15 pm

    I think you have to use that analysis carefully.

    Personally, I don’t think I can support anyone who attended Rev Wright’s church for more than a single week. Mormons I don’t agree with on some things, but they are good folks so I don’t think that religion should play a factor.

    Religion is important to one’s values, but I think unless the religion is very bad, we need to try to look specifically at the values of the specific person, instead of generalizing.

    Also, politicians sometimes go to church insincerely. I just think in 99% of cases we should try to look for the pol’s values more directly.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  53. So I’m a bigot because I consider certain areas of inquiry, shemas making sense of the world, central to one’s world view and, by definition, religions(limited to those with a higher being at their center) are not credible overarching determinants of a reasonable world view?

    Well, for some of us, not believing in a “higher being” is sign of having an unreasonable world view….so yes.

    And also because “grease bag” is a bigoted term.

    JBS (510a0a)

  54. If he’s willing to be austere when his own future is at stake, it gives me renewed hope that he will hold to that principle if elected President.

    Comment by DRJ — 10/6/2011 @ 1:24 pm

    Nice point!

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  55. No such thing as ‘new type of campaigning altogether”… most things never change, and either you got it or you don’t

    i.e. Pawlenty didn’t

    But Cain just might… wish he had a little more interest in foreign policy, that would be nice. A VP like Bolton would do him a heap of good

    Reaganite Republican (c90bca)

  56. I voted for Sarah, too, Another Drew!

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  57. DRJ, Great Minds, and all that…

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (49563e)

  58. @Karl…awww
    you dont membah talking about Poblano’s predictions with me?
    lol

    of course not.

    wheeler's cat (b503a7)

  59. But Cain just might

    It pains me to say this, partly because it’s oh-so-convenient for a Perry supporter to reject Cain, but his commentary on that rock went too far.

    And his claim he would be happy to be the VP to one of his opponents, but not Perry, signifies a very strange pattern of support for Romney over Perry, from someone who presents themselves as conservative.

    It just reeks of spoiler effort. If Cain really is running just to help Romney win, so that Cain can be his VP, that is … not something I am pleased about.

    I hesitate to say this, because that’s a narrative coming from the left and could just be a J-lister style trick. Cain has always come across as a genuine guy, and may be falling for a trap here. It’s definitely not going to do Cain any favors if he doesn’t distance himself from these ideas.

    Perry didn’t practice affirmative action as a leader, but by simply looking for quality, has wound up with a diverse staff and a lot of blacks in very powerful positions. It’s sick that he’s being attacked from the right on this racism charge.

    When race becomes an issue, I always get pretty ticked off, and perhaps most folks will just brush this aside and look to the more important ideas, such as Cain’s great tax proposal.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  60. If Republicans only allow selection of candidates on their style, personability, school of matriculation and economic philosophy, i.e., whether Keynesian, Monetarist, Austrian, whatever, and their records of achievement I remain glad I never darkened their door.

    Liberty begins with freedom of thought.

    If you think I’m a bigot for considering the teaching of ones own children that John Smith was murdered, a Prophet of God, who translated books written in heaven for mankind, that he was persecuted for no fault of his own, that the creator has a physical body and lives on the planet Kolob, that all this is child abuse,

    have at it weetards.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  61. lol

    of course not.

    Comment by wheeler’s cat —

    He asked for a link to a claim of yours that doesn’t appear to be accurate.

    And your reply is ‘of course not’. Sounds like you’re just a goofball trying to profit off bigotry.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  62. RR,

    I agree there’s nothing new under the sun but Perry ran a different kind of campaign in the Governor’s race and he seems to be using some of those techniques in the Presidential campaign. For instance, they discount the value of mailers, yard signs, bumper stickers, and robo-calls, and they intentionally avoided Texas newspaper endorsements. They also try to pre-script political races, which is why I think the Perry campaign may have intentionally started the immigration and Ponzi scheme debates.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  63. I give Cain some slack on the “Rock” issue, as racism/slavery is such an insideous infection within us that no matter what our better instincts, it can render everything else, at the moment, to a secondary consideration.
    Also, I don’t know if he was in possession of all the facts, or just the bile that the WaComPost was spewing.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (49563e)

  64. And, building on DRJ’s comment at 1340, it would be opportune for Perry to dispose of this “Rock” issue now, during the early phase of the campaign, rather than have it bite him during the run-up to the Convention, or afterwards if he is the nominee.

    Geez, do we have another Texan who’s as dumb as a brick, but is a Machiavelli in Tony Lama’s and a Stetson?

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (49563e)

  65. 55. “world view and, by definition”

    Try reading ‘whereas’ for ‘and’.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  66. racism/slavery is such an insideous infection within us that no matter what our better instincts, it can render everything else, at the moment, to a secondary consideration.

    Yeah. I probably would fail in Cain’s shoes, under my own standard. It’s very hard to know everything and hold judgment. Those who do get bashed too.

    Also, I don’t know if he was in possession of all the facts, or just the bile that the WaComPost was spewing.

    I think Cain made a mistake in being conclusory based on incorrect facts, when he should have said he doesn’t know the facts.

    This seems like a much worse gaffe than Perry’s annoying gaffes. Anyway, I am reserving judgment on Cain. I think, at the very least, there is a theory that Cain wants Romney to win so Cain can be the VP, perhaps as a smart calculation, but also perhaps as a long running alliance.

    Cain has given Romney an unusual amount of slack. When I watched the CNN debate, they pointed out one of Romney’s most ridiculous flip flops, and Romney had no explanation for it. Cain blurted out ‘case closed’, and they moved on.

    anyway, there’s more to politics than ideology. Maybe Cain straight up likes Romney and just doesn’t like Perry, and he’s not trying to play any games here. He almost always looks genuine to me.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  67. It’s not an issue, much as Arnold said, ‘it’s not a tumor’ speaking of supporters who make you want to hate their candidate, David Frum has exceeded the Brooks threshhold.

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  68. 54. “Religion is important to one’s values, but I think unless the religion is very bad, we need to try to look specifically at the values of the specific person, instead of generalizing”

    And you take such care with the term ‘bigot’?

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  69. And you take such care with the term ‘bigot’?

    Comment by gary gulrud — 10/6/2011 @ 1:54 pm

    Honestly, probably not. I’m judgmental about that kind of issue. Sometimes I’m not fair about it. Just being honest.

    But why reject someone for being Mormon? You’re right, religion colors one’s values. What Mormon value is so bad to have?

    If we’re looking at how accurate the faith claims are, it’s hard to pick a winner. But values are different matter.

    I know a lot of Mormons, actually, and just don’t get what part of their values is especially bad. They would help me if I needed it, and they care about their families.

    And again, I don’t even know if Romney is devout. He doesn’t make his religion an issue, and I can evaluate his values pretty well without looking at his religion. There are a lot of politicians who wear religion on their sleeve. Obama has done this. I think it’s a mistake to let this be an issue except in the extremes. Just my opinion.

    I think if one has an outright bar on Mormons, that is very mistaken.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  70. speaking of supporters who make you want to hate their candidate, David Frum has exceeded the Brooks threshhold.

    No kiddin’

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  71. Left protests corporate greed but defends Warren Buffet.

    Isn’t that funny?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  72. So, wheeler’s cat still doesn’t have a link.

    Shocka.

    Karl (f07e38)

  73. 71. “What Mormon value is so bad to have?”

    Teaching your own children a nexus of verifiably false beliefs are true. In this sense its worse than Islam.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  74. Teaching your own children a nexus of verifiably false beliefs are true. In this sense its worse than Islam.

    Comment by gary gulrud — 10/6/2011 @ 2:07 pm

    How are they verifiably false?

    The same way it’s verifiably false that if you crucify someone and they are dead for three days, they cannot come back to life? I believe that, btw.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  75. If someone had compared Bush to Hitler the left would be accuing us of faux ooutrage.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  76. David Frum is a POS.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  77. But you completely side stepped my point, Gary. I said ‘sure, you might think their views are inaccurate, but what about their values?… what values of theirs are so bad?’ your response is to just rephrase ‘I disagree with their factual claims’ as a value.

    So you don’t have a problem with their values.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  78. I hate Flip Flopney.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  79. Gary, also, your characterization of this Mormon value for teaching kids lies doesn’t make sense if you think Mormon parents actually believe in their faith.

    Alternatively, if you think Mormons generally don’t believe the book of Mormon literally, then I guess your value fails on the other end. The parents learned not to take these ‘false’ claims to be truth, and pass that along like we pass along Santa myths.

    I don’t see why our deficit and foreign policy should hinge on this.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  80. 79. Teaching what one knows to be a lie, or has had challenged as a lie and cannot be factually refute, isn’t evidence of a value?

    Joseph Smith was in Territorial custody, in the gaol on the second floor when he was passed a gun. He gut shot the deputy and in turn was shot by a rider on horseback as he attempted to exit a window from the second floor.

    I can go on all day.

    Regarding your example, there is no evidence to the contrary, i.e., no report that he did not die, nor was never buried, etc.

    Reasonable assumptions, e.g., that no one rises from the dead is not evidence in the particular.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  81. Exactly but I don’t like Flip Flopney.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  82. 79. Teaching what one knows to be a lie, or has had challenged as a lie and cannot be factually refute, isn’t evidence of a value?

    You think Mormons don’t believe their faith? I already responded to this. Your argument fails if you think Mormons generally don’t believe this.

    has had challenged as a lie and cannot be factually refute,

    It’s a religion, dude. What religion doesn’t fail under this test? It’s not even a religion if it can pass that test.

    I can go on all day.

    Why is that?

    oseph Smith was in Territorial custody, in the gaol on the second floor when he was passed a gun. He gut shot the deputy and in turn was shot by a rider on horseback as he attempted to exit a window from the second floor.

    That God used a sinner to spread his faith is practically cliche.

    Regarding your example, there is no evidence to the contrary, i.e., no report that he did not die, nor was never buried, etc.

    Reasonable assumptions, e.g., that no one rises from the dead is not evidence in the particular.

    What does that even mean? The specific thing that Christian believe is that Jesus DID DIE before he rose. It is not scientifically reasonable. Without a supernatural explanation, someone cannot be dead for three days and then come back to life. Not in the Bronze age, and not in Star Trek.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  83. And just to reemphasize, I do believe Jesus was dead and then rose. That is the lynchpin of my entire world view.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  84. I cannot, will not, vote for Romney. Ever. If you bother to look at the way he campaigns, he is a small man. Last go round, he slammed Rudy Guiliani at a Florida debate because NYC was considered a sanctuary city. The very next day, the Boston Globe reported that although they had notified Romney a year earlier that he was employing illegals as a lawn crew, Romney didn’t do anything about it and was still working the illegals. Add to that when Huckabee took the Iowa caucus, Romney ran a video ad slamming Huckabee for (wait for it, you know it’s coming) in-state tuition for illegals.

    He was for abortion before he was against it, but he was for it for a long, long time. Only when he decided to run against McCain did he change his tune. Romney slammed the Boy Scouts (his battle with Perry starting there) because Romney felt that gay men should be allowed to be BS leaders. As an added insult toward the Scouts, he ruled they could volunteer at the Olympics, but only if they didn’t wear their uniforms.

    Romney is a big tax, big spend RINO. He is not much different that what we have now. Maybe that is why he lost 31,000 registered Republican voters in his state and gained 30,000 registered Democrats during his short tenure as governor. Or why he nominated twice as many Democrats to the MA bench as Republicans.

    Is he better than Obama? Not much. Who the hell cares if he’s a Morman. He’s a tony Brahmain garden slug.

    retire05 (ae4dc6)

  85. Well said, Retire.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  86. Wow Goldman Sachs was thrown under the far-left bus.

    Raise minimum wage to $50 and tax corporations who don’t vote against Obama.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  87. “daley — I agree rigged numbers aren’t good, but what numbers are rigged?”

    DRJ – Perfect example in Dustin’s comment #24 right here:

    “The guy raised taxes in a dozen ways while claiming he wasn’t raising taxes… just fees or former loopholes that citizens and businesses pay to the government even though the MA tax rate is already far too high, and spending is not being cut.”

    Seems like nobody wants to face the truth in comparison in Texas spending. Texas spending doubled from 2000-2010 under Perry’s watch including funds from Uncle Sam. Dustin and other Perry supporters don’t want you to look at those numbers because they don’t make as good a case for fiscal conservatism. What they want you to focus on is the way the Texas Controller presents the numbers, which is very, very creative, carving the numbers into Texas discretionary spending, which has been very controlled and keeping the federal dollars, which are not available for discretionary spending since they are earmarked for specific agencies or programs, separate.

    The comparisons Dustin has mostly been focusing on have been separate discretionary Texas spending with total Massachusetts spending, not apples to apples.

    In additions, as I have already pointed out several times, Perry has used the same devices, loophole closing, user fee increases, etc. with which Dustin tars Romney. They are both politicians after all. In one case, though, the motive is completely cynical and mistrusted. In the other, it is swept under the table and ignored. That is not applying the same standards.

    Attempting to blame Romney for the blue state levels of spending, debt and taxation already in place when he took office in Massachusetts is also an underhanded argument. Rick Perry would not have been able to reduce Massachusetts spending to Texas levels in that state. To pretend otherwise is ludicrous.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  88. Daley Romney could have done away with those taxes but he did not.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  89. daleyrocks, not to be rude, but you’re full of crap. Even Ron Paul doesn’t claim that Perry increased the Texas budget by double in one year.

    Now, let’s take a look at what the naysayers do claim: that Perry increased the Texas budget by double since 2001. OK, here are the facts: in 2001, the Texas bi-annual (look it up) budget was appoximately $49 billion. Now, let’s adjust that for inflaction. According to InflationData.com, that amount in 2011 would be $67 billion. Add to that, an increase in state services by the 21.6% increase in population and you have a budget, in 2001 terms, of slightly over $81 billion. The current Texas bi-annual budget is $87 billion. So the Texas budget, with 5 million more people than in 2000, has increased by $7 billion. That wouldn’t even make a dent in Romneycare which he admitted was a dual funded system; 1/2 Massachussets, 1/2 every other tax payer in the U.S. via federal funding.

    Devel Patrick was crying in his beer how Romneycare was broke and needed over $400 million from the federal government (us taxpayers) to make it solvent. Obama’s Stimulus bill gave them $764 million.

    So either you subscribe to fuzzy math, believe everything you are told and are too math challenged to work the numbers for yourself.

    Romney was having a budget shortfall (please, don’t give me the crap he inherited it. I have heard all of that inheritance stuff I ever want to hear). He didn’t raise taxes, per se, he raised the fees the state charged on everything; licenses, permits, etc. to give him cover. A fee is just as much a tax and a legitimate tax.

    Yes, Perry took some Stimulus money. $109 million for equipment for volunteer fire departments that are basically supported by local taxes and donations. So what? We (Texas) are still a donor state, not a recipient state. We send more to those crooks in D.C. than we get back. Personally, I think we should quit sending them anything, the Congressional elites just p!ss it away anyway.

    retire05 (ae4dc6)

  90. the stars at night are big and bright

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  91. http://www.lbb.state.tx.us/Fact_Book/Texas_FactBook_2010.pdf
    ppgs 45, 46
    texas spending did not double under Perry in fact as far as state expenditures go considering the 50% growth in inflation and Texas’ nearly 25% growth in population

    Perry did send 37 billion in property tax cuts the largest of any American governor

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  92. retire05, how is that “doubling” when you factor in inflation and population growth?
    Then, compare that rate of increase with the avg rate of increase in the other “56” states;
    I think TX will come out looking pretty good in that comparison,
    and is one reason why people and businesses consider TX a “friendly” state to be in.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (49563e)

  93. And, the “donor/recipient” meme is pretty meaningless as it has a lot of components that are particular to individual states/regions that skew the curve, so to speak.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (49563e)

  94. Andrew Drew, Perry has not really increased the budget, but basically held it to 2000 levels. That ain’t bad for a state that is consistance rated the most business friendly state in the nation, has no state income tax and doesn’t charge sales tax on groceries and medications, the two biggest expenses for any senior.

    retire05 (ae4dc6)

  95. It seems that the only way to get a successful presidential campaign is for the staff to quit/get fired early on. Reagan and McCain did that, for example. Either that or flog a book, like Obama did.

    Kevin M (4eb9c8)

  96. It’s really a little too cute for folks to bash Perry’s budget on terms entirely due to Perry’s success.

    Factor one: Perry’s been governor for a long time because, unlike any of his competitors, he’s a reelected governor. Because he’s been governor for a decade+, inflation must be taken into account or the numbers look ridiculous.

    Also, because his governorship has seen Texas be the place to go to succeed in business, the population has skyrocketed. Even with so many people flooding in, unemployment hasn’t been a major problem. We keep adding so many jobs, much unlike, say, Romney’s MA, even though his short single unpopular term was during a huge boom.

    So you have to look at the per capita budget. It is simply dishonest not to. It’s like telling a woman she’s a bad mother for feeding her two kids 4000 calories total per day, versus the mother who feeds her sole kid 3000 calories a day.

    Perry kept the government trim in the boom years thanks to the balanced budget laws that he wishes to replicate on a national level.

    That’s why Perry’s the serious candidate for conservatives to support. He’s got a realistic, albeit imperfect, way to make things better than they are, and he’s actually walked the walk.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  97. It is not scientifically reasonable. Without a supernatural explanation, someone cannot be dead for three days and then come back to life. Not in the Bronze age, and not in Star Trek.

    Because people did not understand about pulses and heartbeats, there was a great deal of concern about how to determine death in the Middle Ages and earlier. Shakespeare had Juliet and Romeo in such a situation. People were actually buried in caskets with air hoses to the surface. Th concept of brain death is less than a century old.

    Mike K (8f3f19)

  98. It is not scientifically reasonable. Without a supernatural explanation, someone cannot be dead for three days and then come back to life. Not in the Bronze age, and not in Star Trek.

    Because people did not understand about pulses and heartbeats, there was a great deal of concern about how to determine death in the Middle Ages and earlier. Shakespeare had Juliet and Romeo in such a situation. People were actually buried in caskets with air hoses to the surface. Th concept of brain death is less than a century old.

    Mike K (8f3f19)

  99. Mike K,

    I think what you’re suggesting is that people could be fooled into thinking Jesus was dead when he wasn’t. However, Dustin’s point is that he believes Jesus was literally and truly dead and then raised from the dead by God. Being raised 3 days later from literal death is not scientifically possible now and it wasn’t then. Thus, because of his religion, Dustin believes (and I agree) something that science considers impossible.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  100. why 3 days I wonder

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  101. daley… you didn’t ask for, much less, do you need my help, However… if I may…

    retire05… re: your post #91… EFF all, y’all!

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  102. hf,

    Three is common in the Bible, perhaps because it’s a reference to the Trinity.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  103. “texas spending did not double under Perry”

    EPWJ – Yes, it did. Now if you want to start switching terms to nominal per capita dollars, say so at the start of the discussion and deflate any dollars used quoted for other states as well.

    The game of choosing measures that make Texas look absolutely the best is just a little too cute.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  104. Teaching your own children a nexus of verifiably false beliefs are true. In this sense its worse than Islam.

    Gulrud… you are despicable and – other than that – I feel nothing but sadness for you.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  105. “Perry kept the government trim in the boom years thanks to the balanced budget laws that he wishes to replicate on a national level.”

    Dustin – This is the balanced budget law that lets him borrow short term to pretend the budget is balanced, the same hole that California got itself into. Don’t look at those miracle Texas numbers too closely, because you piss off Perry supporters.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  106. The game of choosing measures that make Texas look absolutely the best is just a little too cute.

    I would add that this sort of mendacity doesn’t help the candidate, it hurts him.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  107. “daleyrocks, not to be rude, but you’re full of crap. Even Ron Paul doesn’t claim that Perry increased the Texas budget by double in one year.”

    retire05 – I will be rude. Read what I actually wrote. The dates I gave represent a decade.

    I did not say doubled in deflated per capita dollars as you Perrybots are trying to minimize the change. I can put a denominator under any number to make it look smaller. Math works that way, but that’s not what I wrote. If I meant that, I would have written that.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  108. Dustin – Why don’t you provide the increases in spending that you claim Romney made in Massachusetts by year so people can see what a spendthrift he was. Be careful with that 2007 budget. It looks like what he submitted as a budget got sidetracked along the way.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  109. “Perry opposed creating a Texas state income tax and increasing sales tax rates, choosing instead to increase user fees and debt, adding $2 billion for road bonds,[52][53] borrowing from the Federal Unemployment Trust Fund[54] and adding surcharges to various traffic offenses, protected the state’s “Rainy Day fund”, balanced the state budget as required by state law, and was reelected on a platform to reduce property taxes that rose with the inflation of property values in the late 1990s and the 21st century.
    [edit] Tax policy

    In 2002, although his Democratic opponent pledged to never raise taxes, Perry refused to make such a promise.[55] In 2009, however, Perry signed Grover Norquist’s pledge to “oppose and veto any and all efforts to increase taxes”.

    In 2004, Perry proposed a number of tax increases to pay for public schools,[55] including a tax on strip clubs.[56] The “pole tax” idea went nowhere until 2007, when the Legislature approved a $5 per patron fee. The measure subsequently became tied up in litigation as the adult entertainment industry sued citing performers’ First Amendment rights.[57]

    In early 2006, Perry signed legislation that delivered a $15.7 billion reduction in property taxes[58] while raising other taxes such as a state franchise tax. The tax was condemned as a “back door” state income tax by many organizations.[59] Perry claimed that the bill would save the average taxpayer $2,000 in property taxes. Critics contended that Perry inflated these numbers; the actual tax savings, some sources said, would average only $150 per family in the first year, and $1,350 over a three-year period.[60]

    In 2009, the wealthiest 1 percent of Texans paid 3 percent of their income in state and local taxes, while the poorest fifth of Texans paid about 12 percent of their income.

    During Perry’s governorship, Texas rose from second to first among states with the highest proportion of uninsured residents at 26%, and has the lowest level of access to prenatal care. Perry and the Republican-led state legislature have cut Medicaid spending and made it more difficult to enroll in the program, which currently covers one-third of Texas children.[74] The cost of caring for uninsured Texans has been borne by those with insurance, leading to substantial rises in insurance premiums and leading Texas to rank next-to-last among states in terms of affordability of health insurance.[76] An analysis in the Los Angeles Times wrote that under Perry, “working Texans increasingly have been priced out of private healthcare while the state’s safety net has withered.”[76] The Bush administration rejected an attempt by Perry to cut Medicare benefits further, saying that there was no precedent for such limited coverage.[77]

    In response, Perry’s office has argued that Texas represents a model private-sector approach to health-care. His spokeswoman stated that “Texas does provide an adequate safety net to those truly in need… and many individuals simply choose not to purchase healthcare coverage.”[76]

    Giuliani and Perry endorsed Arizona Senator John McCain for President.[234] Shortly after Mitt Romney’s withdrawal from the race in early February, Perry reportedly called McCain rival Mike Huckabee and suggested that he withdraw as well to clear the way for McCain to secure the nomination. Huckabee declined this request and made it clear publicly that he would abandon his presidential bid only if McCain secured enough delegates.[235] Huckabee withdrew his presidential bid on March 5, 2008, after John McCain won the Texas and Ohio primaries.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Perry

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  110. yes but also 3 days is how long mom and dad would usually ground me when they wanted to teach me a lesson

    kinda makes you think, huh

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  111. “Rick Perry has had steady work as a politician since the mid-1980s, and his income increased dramatically when he became governor of Texas in 2000. Between 2000 and 2009, he has earned $2.68 million, according to the Houston Chronicle. That’s a lot of means and opportunity to give back to all those who have lost their jobs, suffered through a harrowing addiction or endured a housing foreclosure.

    And Texas has plenty of people in need, whether it’s the chronically unemployed in the Rio Grande Valley or the men and women huddled in Austin’s crowded shelters.

    Yet Perry’s money hasn’t answered many prayers. A review of his tax records from the mid-1990s through 2009 show the governor has contributed very little to charity. When he has, Perry has given mainly to charities connected to his family, and even then, his donations have sometimes been slight. An analysis by the San Antonio Express-News in mid-June reported that of his $2.68 million, Perry “gave half a percent to churches and religious organizations, or $14,243.”

    The Express-News goes on to note: “By comparison, Americans averaged gifts of nearly 1.2 percent of their incomes to churches and religious groups from 2004 to 2008, according to Empty Tomb Inc., an Illinois-based research firm specializing in U.S.-church giving trends.”

    When asked about the governor’s contributions, a senior Perry adviser told The Huffington Post that Perry is not wealthy and never has been. The adviser did not know the details of Perry’s various donations. The Governor’s Office did not return a request for comment.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/10/governor-rick-perry-charity_n_922890.html

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  112. “daley… you didn’t ask for, much less, do you need my help, However… if I may…”

    Colonel – Thanks, I’m usually pretty comfortable with numbers stuff. It’s a thing.

    The Perrybots clearly are not.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  113. as you wish Karl.
    i dont care enough to look for it.
    :)

    DRJ you moron, there is no trinity in the bible.

    wheeler's cat (b503a7)

  114. Perry is not wealthy and never has been.

    he is the 99%

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  115. trinity is in the matrix

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  116. Because people did not understand about pulses and heartbeats, there was a great deal of concern about how to determine death in the Middle Ages and earlier. Shakespeare had Juliet and Romeo in such a situation. People were actually buried in caskets with air hoses to the surface. Th concept of brain death is less than a century old.

    Comment by Mike K — 10/6/2011 @ 5:22 pm

    This supports my point, of course.

    The religious explanation is supernatural. If, in fact, Jesus was alive and rose from grave, that’s not the victory Christians base their views upon.

    Similarly, other religions have supernatural explanations for things. That’s what makes religions different from other views.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  117. Giuliani and Perry endorsed Arizona Senator John McCain for President. Shortly after Mitt Romney’s withdrawal from the race in early February, Perry reportedly called McCain rival Mike Huckabee and suggested that he withdraw as well to clear the way for McCain to secure the nomination.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  118. Romney endorsed Mccain for senate.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  119. Oh great. We have a poseur “Constitutional scholar” in the White House and now Nishi is a “biblical scholar”.

    elissa (09e8c5)

  120. “pole tax” … heh.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  121. Nishi is a scholar of head up orifice.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  122. The game of choosing measures that make Texas look absolutely the best is just a little too cute.

    I would add that this sort of mendacity doesn’t help the candidate, it hurts him.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/6/2011 @ 5:42 pm

    The idea this is cherry picking is asinine.

    Texas is working wonderfully compared to, say MA, or for that matter, any other large state.

    That’s the best the Romney supporters can do. Pretend Texas is not proof that conservatism is superior to liberalism.

    Establishment republicans who do not like the Texas way may be focused simply on electability via meekness, but some may be interested in K street too.

    Dustin – This is the balanced budget law that lets him borrow short term to pretend the budget is balanced, the same hole that California got itself into. Don’t look at those miracle Texas numbers too closely, because you piss off Perry supporters.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 10/6/2011 @ 5:41 pm

    This too is simply a lie. In fact, a website Daley has used in the past called this “pants on fire”, but I don’t care to link it.

    Daley simply is wrong.

    Texas uses short term bonds, which are worked into the balanced budget, much like someone paying off their credit cards every month. The idea this is like California’s debt situation is simply ridiculous and, frankly, stupid.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  123. “pole tax” a new one
    meaningful strategy or
    just nekkid attempt?

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  124. DRJ you moron, there is no trinity in the bible.

    Do I not have you moderated? Allow me to fix that.

    Patterico (f724ca)

  125. I like Perry the best. Cain’s weirdo demagoguery of mexican college kids creeps me out. Can you imagine how they feel when he starts getting all nasty about them? Pretty bad I bet. It makes me want to reach out to them and say don’t pay the scary pizza boy any mind you just study hard and believe in yourself.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  126. Comment by Patterico — 10/6/2011 @ 6:05 pm

    Bravo.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  127. Rick Perry’s Top 4 Economic Vulnerabilities:

    1. He’s a big beneficiary of big-government
    Perry’s No. 1 talking point as a presidential candidate is job creation in Texas. He claims correctly that Texas has created more than one-third of all jobs in the country since the economic recovery began in mid-2009. What he doesn’t mention is that virtually all of that job creation was in government, not in private industry.

    Here are the numbers, which come from the federal government’s Bureau of Labor Statistics: Between the beginning of 2008 and the end of 2010 (the latest data available), Texas created about 75,000 jobs. That makes it one of the few states with any job creation at all over that time. But federal, state and local government hiring accounted for 115,000 new jobs in Texas, while private industry shed about 40,000 jobs. The private sector has definitely held up much better in Texas than it has elsewhere. Since 2008, private-sector employment has shrunk by 6.6 percent nationally, but only by 0.5 percent in Texas. Still, Perry can’t credibly claim that private industry has been responsible for job growth in Texas, since it has actually shed jobs.

    Perry and his state have also benefited significantly from the kind of federal spending he’s now trashing as a presidential candidate hoping to appeal to conservative Republicans. Federal spending in Texas amounts to more than $200 billion per year, according to the New York Times, on account of several big Army bases, a heavy NASA presence, and other federal installations. That’s about 5.2 percent of all federal spending.

    Texas also accepted $6.4 billion in federal funds from the unpopular 2009 stimulus program championed by President Obama, according to the Washington Post. There’s nothing wrong with Texas or any state getting its share of funding from Washington. The problem for Perry is that the facts don’t support the small-government credentials he’s now trying to establish.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  128. I hate when nishi gets banned she’s so unique and she’s so enthusiastic about her point of view and yes she can be insouciant sometimes but so could Steve Jobs and everyone’s all moping about him like their freaking dog died

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  129. daleyrocks, obviously math is not your forte. Twice times 49 is 98. That is double. 87 doesn’t quit make it.

    But tell me, are you spending the same amount now that you did in 2001 on groceries, gas, insurance, etc? No, and if you don’t figure in inflation, you are only doing it to try to disparage someone you don’t like. Which is basically a Ron Paul tactic.

    retire05 (ae4dc6)

  130. daleyrocks, Wikipedia?

    Your paper just got an F.

    retire05 (ae4dc6)

  131. Rick Perry’s Top 4 Economic Vulnerabilities (cntd):

    2. The “Texas Miracle” is unraveling
    Texas has been able to delay the kinds of sharp cutbacks in government payrolls and services that most other states have been forced to undertake, partly because of a strong energy sector that helped sustain the state’s tax revenues during the early part of the recession. But Texas now seems poised for steep cuts in government services, just like many other strapped states.

    In fiscal 2011, for example, Texas increased spending by 15.4 percent, the biggest hike among all 50 states, according to the National Association of State Budget Officers. But in fiscal 2012, which begins in September, Texas will cut spending by 8.5 percent, which will be the second biggest cut of any state, after Nevada. As in other states, the biggest cuts in Texas are slated for education and health care. Texas is also pushing off several big problems until 2013, which means more spending cuts are probably on the way. That could help Perry burnish his small-government cred, but it will almost certainly entail job cuts too — and make the Texas Miracle look a lot less miraculous by this time next year.

    3. What’s good for Texas is bad for America’s drivers
    When oil and gas prices rise, the Texas economy gets a big boost. According to the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas, every 10 percent rise in oil prices boosts annual economic output in Texas by half a percentage point, and employment by 0.36 percentage points. Texas isn’t nearly as dependent on energy as it was in the 1980s, when a sharp energy bust sent the state into a deep recession. But the state has clearly benefited from rising oil prices that have pushed gas prices well over $3 per gallon and caused distress for many American families.

    Since Perry became governor in 2000, oil prices have tripled, rising from about $30 per barrel to roughly $90 today. Not surprisingly, that coincides with a Texas economy that has outperformed the national one for the last decade. Again, there’s nothing wrong with Texas or any state profiting from worldwide economic trends. But Perry can’t exactly boast about an economy that has boomed at the expense of ordinary drivers. And if the recent drop in oil prices sticks, it will detract from the Texas economy and further undermine the gains that Perry is campaigning on now.

    4. He sounds clueless about monetary policy
    Perry’s first pronouncement on the Federal Reserve as a presidential candidate was a convoluted mouthful of economically illiterate posturing. When asked his opinion of the Fed, Perry said of chairman Ben Bernanke, “If this guy prints more money between now and the election … we would treat him pretty ugly down in Texas. Printing more money to play politics at this particular time in American history is almost treacherous—or treasonous.”

    To Tea Partiers and government-bashers, Perry’s jabs at the Fed might sound like a welcome challenge to an omnipotent federal agency that routinely manipulates the economy. But if Perry wants to be taken seriously by business leaders and investors — who control a wee bit of the campaign money he’ll no doubt be asking for — he might want to take a crash course on the Fed and monetary policy.

    – Rick Newman, U.S. News & World Report – August 16, 2011

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  132. Um. Mr. Feet? You do have a dictionary, right? You might look up “insouciant,” dude.

    I don’t know why you have such a horn for nishi, who is bizarre, dishonest, and clearly trying to upset people.

    Oh. I get it.

    But now I can add “stupid” to nishi’s accomplishments. Insulting someone of quality like DRJ?

    Good to see you defend that. You might want to think before you post. Because I’m sure you would not normally think it is cool for anyone to call DRJ a “moron.” Right?

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  133. Nishi deserves to be banned for being an embarrassment to its mom.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  134. happyfeet, give nishi your phone number and you two can exchange SMS photos of each other in underwear without bothering us.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  135. of course it’s not cool – it’s certainly not something Leather Tuscadero would do. But I don’t think we have a tort on our hands for reals Mr. Jester I can testify

    being called names on the internet is just an opportunity to engage your name-calling friend in a discussion

    usually people will respond to the tone you set when you engage them and then everyone can be friends and trade extreme couponing strategies or whatever

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  136. yes but also 3 days is how long mom and dad would usually ground me when they wanted to teach me a lesson

    kinda makes you think, huh

    Comment by happyfeet

    meh… makes me think your 3 day sabbaticals had absolutely no effect.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  137. Maybe they swap missing punctuation and capital letters, SPQR.

    Seriously, defending that insult to DRJ—without even saying that nishi went beyond the pale?

    Something creepy, indeed.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  138. Nishi deserves to be banned for being an embarrassment to its mom.

    Lizards don’t embarrass easy.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  139. brb Mr. Jester I need to get some laundry started

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  140. Romney-Cain in 2012!

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  141. Happyfeet is what gender?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  142. I hate when nishi gets banned

    Moderated is not banned. Me, I hate it when my friends are stupidly insulted.

    Patterico (f724ca)

  143. Geez, Mr. Feet. You are unclear on the concept, even when you bring it up:

    “…will respond to the tone you set when you engage them…”

    So, DRJ took such a tone with your nutty deluxe pal?

    Say it with me: nishi went too far, and needs to apologize to a person who never engages in personal attack or weirdnesses.

    But I think SPQR is onto something, dude.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  144. But see, Patterico, it’s not really an insult in happyland. And besides, according to Mr. Feet, DRJ somehow brought it on.

    Jeez.

    He just likes people who have taken too much mescaline and are dishonest.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  145. daleyrocks, your jobs figures on Texas are wrong.

    According to the BLS, Texas had 9,541,200 employed in January, 2001. By January, 2008, the number increased to 10,561,500. That’s over 1,000,000 jobs. Even at the end of 2008, after the crash, Texas had 10,574,000 jobs.

    So you are saying that the recession should have not affected Texas when it affected every other state in the union?

    Well, it did affect Texas and by the end of 2009, jobs had fallen to 10,209,000. By May, 2011, jobs were back up to their pre-recession number of 10,556,600 with job increases in jobs in just two months, June and July, taking the number to 10,619,800.

    Name another state that has done as well. We will all be waiting with baited breath.

    retire05 (ae4dc6)

  146. Dustin – Why don’t you provide the increases in spending that you claim Romney made in Massachusetts by year so people can see what a spendthrift he was. Be careful with that 2007 budget. It looks like what he submitted as a budget got sidetracked along the way.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 10/6/2011 @ 5:50 pm

    I disagree with your analysis, Daley. So does the Club for Growth.

    At the same time, Governor Romney clearly loosened the purse strings for FY 2006 and in his proposed budget for FY2007. With surpluses flowing into the state coffers, the Romney administration sought to undo some of the success it had achieved during the initial lean years. The result was a budget proposal for 2007 that was a whopping 10.12% larger than the preceding fiscal year.

    I linked this before and you ignored it. In all but Romney’s first year of his failed governorship, spending increased.

    Now if you want to start switching terms to nominal per capita dollars, say so at the start of the discussion and deflate any dollars used quoted for other states as well.

    This is disappointing. I don’t know what’s gotten into you lately, but you are practically admitting you are not willing to be fair.

    Texas is doing well. Any effort to deny this is futile. We’re not evaluating Perry’s performance. He obviously gets an A+. We are simply looking at WHY the jobs and the businesses are appearing here, not whether Perry did a good job. The reason WHY things are doing well in Texas is important to consider, regardless of whether one settles for Perry as their choice.

    The answer is spending. Texas doesn’t have a spending problem. They cut spending while MA increases it. Your ridiculous effort to deny this by admitting that you won’t use basic fairness like adjusting for inflation (for pete’s sake) just shows you simply aren’t credible in the slightest. You will do and say whatever you can to spin this dishonestly. Your efforts to claim you don’t stand for BS come across as projection.

    End of the line. Romney left MA in bad, bad shape. His tax and spend policies barely worked in boom years. He should have prepared for the inevitable recessions, like Perry has.

    His 400% tax increase on guns didn’t do the trick because of that one thing tax and spend liberals do not have a clue about: overtax something, and revenue starts to slip. People just stopped buying guns. Businesses started to flee (to Texas, Einstein!). The recession began, and MA’s tax and spend policies turned into record deficits, while Texas’s balanced budget remained.

    All the sophistry in the world won’t change the fact that Perry’s Texas is working fine.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  147. Three. Ring. Circus. But without the popcorn and the Calliope.

    elissa (09e8c5)

  148. good Mr. P I’m glad she’s not banned cause if it’s anything like last time we only get to have her around til the election and then she’ll fade away again and sightings will become rare like snow leopards and tax refunds

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  149. 4. He sounds clueless about monetary policy
    Perry’s first pronouncement on the Federal Reserve as a presidential candidate was a convoluted mouthful of economically illiterate posturing.

    Haiku, this simply isn’t the way I see it. Anyone who isn’t alarmed by the amount of money printing is an idiot. Perry is expressing alarm, and refuses to back away. the facts are on his side. Summing this up as illiterate posturing is simply wrong on the facts.

    I get it. Perry has an accent. He must be a moron. Everyone is lining up behind Romney. It’s inevitable. Stop supporting other people.

    It’s an effective strategy, and politics is a contact sport, but I don’t agree with any of that. I think Perry’s much better informed on economic policy than Mitt or, frankly these business leaders who support the things Perry is complaining about. Perry’s walked the walk on economic policy. He has the most specific and effective solution of any candidate, certainly including Romney’s 160 pages, and Perry has even practiced precisely what he’s preached, which obviously cannot be said for Romney.

    Romney-Cain in 2012!

    Comment by ColonelHaiku

    That appears to be Cain’s plan. If it’s possible to elect a more conservative candidate, Cain will get in the way in exchange for a VP slot. I sure hope I’m wrong about that, because that’s selfish and I really like Cain.

    Anyway, Romney has to use VP choices before he’s nominated. He’s floated a few by now. Why is that? Because Romney can’t make the sale.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  150. You don’t need to ban anyone on my account, especially since my comment was way off topic. In addition, I think it’s true the word “trinity” isn’t in the Bible but the concept of the Trinity is there:

    The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  151. Oh, and on the subject of nishi’s mastery of theology (remember how she claimed to know all about Sufism and was shown to be back-of-the-cereal-box ignorant?):

    http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

    http://www.gci.org/god/3bible

    There are a number of Biblical scholars who, well, think that nishi is chock full of the end product of bovine digestion of grain.

    But there is nothing new about that.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  152. Sorry to cross post, DRJ.

    And thank you, as always, for maintaining decorum and manners.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  153. Perry’s record has been posted in this thread. Read it and weep, a little.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  154. DRJ appears to have paid attention to the ideas behind the words.

    When we debate the details of Christianity, a couple of folks are acting like that’s an invitation to judge and condemn. I’m not a saint in this regard either.

    But the point that one cannot miss is that Jesus, whether you believe the resurrection or not, wanted folks to get over their need to judge one another.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  155. You don’t need to ban anyone on my account, especially since my comment was way off topic.

    If it makes you happy, think of it this way: it’s not done on your account. It’s done because a pointless insult of you is an excellent indicator that a person needs moderation.

    And it’s moderation, not a banning.

    Patterico (f724ca)

  156. But the point that one cannot miss is that Jesus, whether you believe the resurrection or not, wanted folks to get over their need to judge one another.

    Indeed. It’s a constant struggle for me. I try to remind myself to judge the deed and not the person. Sometimes the same evil deeds keep coming back to the same people, which makes it difficult. But that is one of the fundamental messages, as I understand it, and it’s an excellent one.

    Patterico (f724ca)

  157. And the concept of the Trinity is all over the Bible.

    Patterico (f724ca)

  158. Gotta love herr bayam and the leftards telling us palin supporters to take our lumps and move on.

    This coming from the same gang which threaten anyone with lawsuits if they question Obama.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  159. I get it. Perry has an accent. He must be a moron.

    No, that doesn’t resonate with me. I just have my reservations about his abilities and his record. I think his supporters are left to obfuscate, conflate and inflate and many of them seem to do it without shame or any thought for the damage that causes when interested parties do some research.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  160. and you will vote for him if he gets the nom?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  161. No, that doesn’t resonate with me.

    I apologize for suggesting it did. You’re right, this isn’t the argument you’re making.

    I think his supporters are left to obfuscate, conflate and inflate and many of them seem to do it without shame or any thought for the damage that causes when interested parties do some research.

    I think the best thing Perry can hope for is for voters to earnestly research his record.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  162. Project much haiku?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  163. Doh, I respect Haiku. It’s clear we’re not going to agree on this matter, but he’s very straightforward about it, and I think it’s not easy defending Romney to right leaning blog commenters these days. Haiku doesn’t hide his allegiance. And btw, I have no doubt Haiku will be voting for whoever the GOP nominee is (since you asked). Same goes for me.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  164. Anyone But Obama!!!!!!!!!!!!

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  165. The GOP and their conservative comrades in arms[not the communist party version] will win in 2012.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  166. Unless you’re an irretrievable liberal or a person with limited brain function (hard to differentiate the two, I know), whoever wins the Republican nomination deserves your vote. This is far too important to let what may ultimately amount to petty differences (remember… BIG PICTURE!) to come between people of good will.

    The nation needs to rid itself of this soulless, faithless, debilitating ideology and the malevolent people who practice it.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  167. suck much, biden?

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  168. just kiddin’ witcha…

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  169. And the concept of the Trinity is all over the Bible

    If you’re a Christian, yes. If you’re not a Christian,not so much. And if you’re Jewish, not at all…

    Let’s see, the real topic was Gov. Perry, wasn’t it?

    The real problem with the “Texas Miracle” or whatever you want to call it depended on people moving into the state–either as immigrants from other countries, or US citizens moving in from other states. People stop coming in, you lose the “miracle”.

    The equivalent on the national level would be to encourage immigration from other countries. Perhaps Perry realizes this and that’s what’s behind his stance on immigration.

    Meanwhile, I do have a totally separate problem with Perry–viz, he apparently sees no problem in presiding over a system which (if my math is correct) has executed an average of one person every two week for the ten years of his governorship. (And he also apparently has no qualms about the possibility that at least one of those people was innocent of the crime for which he was executed.)

    JBS (437df2)

  170. he apparently sees no problem in presiding over a system which (if my math is correct) has executed an average of one person every two week for the ten years of his governorship. (And he also apparently has no qualms about the possibility that at least one of those people was innocent of the crime for which he was executed.)

    That’s quite an issue, and yes, Perry doesn’t appear to have any qualms about the criminal justice system in Texas.

    Though he doesn’t preside over executions, and is, in fact, powerless over them unless a certain set of events occurs. You should take this issue up with Texan juries, who actually impose large numbers of executions in states other than Texas and wind up being denied by what I consider to be usurpers.

    he possibility that at least one of those people was innocent of the crime

    I don’t think there is reasonable doubt in that case despite the arson investigation having serious problems. However, because there is a concerted effort to find an innocent person who was executed, especially if it happened in Texas, many pundits have screwed up their accounting of this issue.

    Unfortunately, that case is a pundit’s football to spin at this point, which is no way to handle justice.

    But again, your issue is with juries and laws, not Perry.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  171. Um. Bad type in my previous comment. Anyway, it’s Texan juries that determine the penalty, not the Texas governor. Why should the governor change their honest findings?

    And in other states, for example California, if someone is sentenced to die, some quasi king will interfere for what I consider political reasons.

    I do not see why one would prefer Perry doing the same.

    However, Perry has come out in favor of the status quo in Texas, so I suppose that’s a fair issue to take up with him too. But even Obama supports the death penalty, sometimes without a trial at all.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  172. “Texas is working wonderfully compared to, say MA, or for that matter, any other large state.”

    Dustin – You are addressing arguments nobody has advanced again. Put down the goal posts.

    “This too is simply a lie. In fact, a website Daley has used in the past called this “pants on fire”, but I don’t care to link it.”

    Revenue anticipation notes are a commonly used tool in municipal finance as I indicated last night. They kick the can down the road. California has used them extensively. They allow Texas to balance it’s budget without raising taxes or fees by borrowing against future revenue streams.

    Prove me wrong.

    “I linked this before and you ignored it. In all but Romney’s first year of his failed governorship, spending increased.”

    I especially liked the following part, which sort of blows away your “Romney is a tax and spend liberal” meme:

    “Governor Romney’s record on spending must be considered within the liberal political context in which he governed. The Massachusetts Legislature was (and continues to be) dominated by Democrats more interested in raising taxes than cutting government programs. Throughout his tenure, Romney’s proposed cuts were met with opposition while the vast majority of his vetoes were relegated to the graveyard of overrides.

    On balance, his record comes out more positive than negative, especially when one considers that average spending increased only 2.22% over his four years, well below the population plus inflation benchmark of nearly 3%.”

    Based on the above, if you present Romney’s spending on a comparable basis to the way you claim you want to present Perry’s, on a constant dollar per capita basis, and compare them side by side, apples to apples for the period Romney was in office, I think Romney actually looks better.

    I tried hinting about that, but none of you Perrykrishna’s would even entertain the thought.

    Go figure.

    There are more than enough reasons to criticize Mitt Romney. I’m just not fond of commenters here creating dishonest ones.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  173. “daleyrocks, obviously math is not your forte.”

    retire05 – Coming from a man who thought there was only one year between 2000 and 2010, is this really a road you want to start down?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  174. Irony much retire?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  175. Here’s a little thought game:
    Assuming governance on a scale of 1 to 10, with Solomon at 10, and Caligula at 1; where do you rank Obama, and where do you think Cain, Perry, & Romney would fall on the scale?
    Strictly subjective.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (49563e)

  176. Perry is a politician. He’s going to present numbers and talking points that present him in the most favorable light. Questioning them is not a crime.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  177. “daleyrocks, Wikipedia?

    Your paper just got an F.”

    retire05 – WTF?

    No Wikipedia. Do you know what year it is?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  178. “daleyrocks, your jobs figures on Texas are wrong.”

    retire05 – Alert as always, I did not post any Texas jobs numbers.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  179. Comment by Dustin — 10/6/2011 @ 8:09 pm
    The principle of checks and balances applies to death penalty as much as anything else. That’s why there are pardon boards and executive clemency. It’s part of the traditional role of the executive, going back to medieval England, to have the final say on executions–there’s no usurping of power. And having a jury decide on death penalty or not is really a modern innovation, wasn’t it–meant to give the defendant one more chance to avoid the death penalty. And defendants get to appeal (non capital) convictions and sentences all the time.

    The jury system is based on the principle that the when the jury decides for the defendant, it can not be overriden, but when it decides against the defendant it can.

    And also refer back to my original comment, or as you rephrased it, Perry doesn’t appear to have any qualms about the criminal justice system in Texas. I know he has much less power in this matter than other governors do in their states, but I think it’s fair to say he presides over the system–and as you note, he finds the status quo acceptable. I don’t. (He could at the very least use the “bully pulpit” to advocate changes.) I expect a governor to be very cautious about sending a man to his death, and to need a moral heart to heart with himself every time such a case comes to his desk, at the very least. Perry doesn’t, and to me that is a bad sign.

    JBS (437df2)

  180. “Your ridiculous effort to deny this by admitting that you won’t use basic fairness like adjusting for inflation (for pete’s sake) just shows you simply aren’t credible in the slightest. You will do and say whatever you can to spin this dishonestly.”

    Dustin – Complete BS. I want to compare apples to apples. I say Texas doubled its spending over the past decade and get attacked by four people. What I said is true. What the people attacking me want me to say is that in constant dollars on a per capita basis, Texas spending actually declined. That’s fine with me, but that’s something different than what I said – a different measurement. No problem. When you are saying Mitt Romney increased spending by 10.2%, what measure are you using, nominal dollars, or constant dollars on per capita basis?

    I happen to think that if we compare two states that the standard of comparison should be the same. That enhances the credibility of the comparison rather than diminishes it. It’s unfortunate that others want to cherry pick the numbers they use to show their candidate in the best light rather than engage in an intellectually honest discussion.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  181. Oh yes,please impart your wisdom about economics on us oh wise one.

    Honestly you romneybots are amusing when you think you can lecture us.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  182. Why does Herman Cain oppose illegals?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  183. I don’t know why he’s like that. It’s not attractive.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  184. “Oh yes,please impart your wisdom about economics on us oh wise one.”

    Doh – I thought I just made a math argument.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  185. Herman Cain opposes illegals because it is the right thing to do.

    Something Romney should keep in mind.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  186. right but denying education to people what are here in America through no fault of their own is same as what we did to the slaves

    that’s kind of ironic isn’t it?

    yes. Yes it is.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  187. 😆

    Opposing illegal immigration is nothing like slavery you deluded fool.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  188. The principle of checks and balances applies to death penalty as much as anything else

    You’re right. The legislatures writes a law, such as do not murder someone with an aggravating factor, like raping them before you murder them.. The executive branch enforces it, in this case they prosecute someone who raped and murdered, or left their kids to die in a burning house, or whatever the crime may be. The judicial branch’s fact finder, a jury, simply determines if law was broken and what lawful sentence applies.

    In what way should Perry check this process, legally? Cite a specific way this can happen legally.

    I think it’s fair to say he presides over the system

    No, that’s completely wrong. Governor Perry is the governor, not the master judge. He does not preside over executions or sentences, quite specifically.

    It’s part of the traditional role of the executive, going back to medieval England, to have the final say on executions–there’s no usurping of power.

    You’re just denying the truth. It would be an abhorrent usurpation of power for Perry to go beyond the law.

    I expect a governor to be very cautious about sending a man to his death

    Perry has never sentenced anyone to death. Not a single time. He does not send anyone to death and cannot exercise any caution. You are suggesting Texas does not shoe an abundance of caution in its criminal justice system, but it is in many ways one of the most progressive in the country. You may think it’s not merely because if someone is guilty of first degree murder beyond reasonable doubt, and a jury sentences them to die, that is actually going to happen. But really, what you’re saying is you don’t understand.

    , and to need a moral heart to heart with himself every time such a case comes to his desk, at the very least. Perry doesn’t, and to me that is a bad sign.

    This is meaningless posturing.

    If Perry doesn’t think Texas’s justice system works, he should fight to change the laws. Perry (quite fairly) is proud of Texas’s justice system, which generally does a good job. That’s as far as it goes.

    BTW, Obama is blowing people up without a trial.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  189. I happen to think that if we compare two states that the standard of comparison should be the sam

    No you don’t.

    I can’t bother refuting every attempt to ignore the facts. You asked for a source for a claim, and I proved you were dead wrong. This is getting old proving what a tax and spend liberal Romney was three of four years in office, with many other liberal policies to the left of the MA democrat party in some cases. You ignore the facts while praising your devotion to honesty and truth.

    I don’t think you’d need to do that if it were apparent from how you argue (And it sure isn’t).

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  190. dustin,

    What people forget about the Cameron todd Willingham case is that he as convicted during Ma Richards reign, by democrat appointed and elected judges and his appeal process had been done for quite some time. That less than 15 minutes before his execution a mistaken laden words scratched out and handwritten report was faxed to the governor from the innocence project in California claiming Willingham was innocent but not saying why or introducing any reason why

    thats whats always left out – that and the fact that Willingham yhe day after the fire confessed to the local arson investigator and the assistant fire marshall that they may find smething on the kids floor caused he poured a gallon of flammable perfume to cover the stink

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  191. http://www.reporternews.com/news/2011/oct/05/state-tax-revenues-on-the-rebound/

    BostonAUSTIN — Texas tax revenues have bounced back to levels nearly equal to pre-recession levels, indicating that the economy is in recovery, the state’s chief revenue estimator said Wednesday.
    John Heleman said taxes on retail sales, motor vehicles and oil production are near 2008 levels, the last year before the recession. Only natural gas taxes are lagging, mostly because of low prices, he said during a quarterly briefing to the state House Ways and Means committee.

    “The sales tax collection in 2008 was our all-time high, and then it went down in 2009,” Heleman told the committee. “It’s back up in 2011, and we’re essentially back to where we were in 2008 in terms of sales tax collections.”

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  192. 84,85,86. I agree with retire05, it doesn’t matter, Romney is a lying crud.

    Your problem Dusty is you are too inarticulate to make and see a point. Christians believe by faith only because no flat out lie was given.

    gary gulrud (7f3ebb)

  193. Romney flipped flopped on taxes like his buttbuddy retire05.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  194. Your problem Dusty is you are too inarticulate to make and see a point.

    Probably.

    Christians believe by faith only because no flat out lie was given.

    Let me try a little harder to clarify my point.

    If you’re judging Mormon values by saying they are blameworthy for telling their kids something you know to be a lie, then you must be saying Mormons actually know it’s a lie. Otherwise, you’re saying their value is akin to making a human error.

    If you’re actually blaming Mormons for sincerely believing something, and teaching it, even though it’s a ‘flat out lie’, is that really a negative reflection of their values?

    Regardless, you are right in the latter point. This simply is not the best argument against Romney. I would hope you could support a Mormon who, unlike Romney, was conservative and had a great record.

    I sincerely buy into religious freedom and tolerance of peaceful people who aren’t like me. Values very much matter. But I think you’re at risk of diluting the meaning of values when the value you object to in this case is ‘believing Mormonism’.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  195. What people forget about the Cameron todd Willingham case is that he as convicted during Ma Richards reign,

    I had forgotten that too.

    I can’t help but recall Ann Richards said about George W Bush much what they say about Rick Perry today. She misunderestimated him.

    Anyway, that’s a very sad case, and I think those who have only heard about the arson investigation problems really need to look into the other aspects of the case.

    I also want to note that Texas’s economic survival today comes in spite of a frankly massive campaign against the Texan economy. Offshore oil drilling, EPA intrusions, an MIA FEMA, a ridiculous lapse on border security, and perhaps even some Fast and Furious action, let alone the drought, mean Texas has had many hard years even before you notice the economy has been very bad nationwide.

    Yet we’re doing ok in spite of it all.

    No, it’s not because of what Rick Perry did so much as how he kept the government out of the way. It’s not as easy as it sounds, which is why the states most comparable to Texas, NY and CA, are disasters.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  196. “No you don’t.

    I can’t bother refuting every attempt to ignore the facts.”

    Dustin – Please point to what you claim to have refuted. I may have missed it.

    All I see is you moving goal posts and whining when I put Perry under the same scrutiny you put Romney.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  197. Perry’s record for over a dozen years stands for itself.

    Romney’s record has to be tempered with the fact that Mass is a blue state and like with Arnold in CA there is very little a gov can do with a blue legislature – something that needs to be remembered when condemnations of Bush fly around.

    However, I cannot imagine a serious financial manager when inheriting a large deficit enacting and pushing for more entitlements like what happened in Mass.

    EricPWJohnson (4380b4)

  198. You know the way, I roll, but considering the options available, and despite the Dubai traveller’s
    advocacy, I would have to go with Perry.

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  199. The whole religious argument is unnecessary. A person who has faith in God is a person who looks for guidance and wisdom. Whether they are Mormon, Buddhist, Christian, Muslim or whatever shoudn’t be such a big deal.
    I was raised Christian but when I married a Shinto/Buddhist and came to know her family and friends it hit pretty personally that judgment is the Lord’s job, not mine. Some really wonderful and spiritual people whose practices toward other people are not at all dissimilar from mine.
    Can a loving God really condemn some 99% of humanity to the fires of hell? No idea, but I just took the view that when asked, I’d share my views/beliefs without judgment and let it go at that.
    As for the Mormons I’ve worked for several senior leaders in the military who were Mormon and I was always impressed with their even handedness and professionalism. Whether that was because of their upbringing or some other reason I cannot say for sure. From a distance, Romney seems to have a similar approach — not a bad thing for a Chief Executive in my opinion.

    vor2 (6c8528)

  200. The judicial branch’s fact finder, a jury, simply determines if law was broken and what lawful sentence applies.

    Only in death penalty cases and only within the last few decades. For all others, and until the modern death penalty, the judge decided, and the executive branch decided if pardon or commutation was appropriate. And the point of the death penalty trial phase is to allow the defendant a chance to avoid the death sentence. In most states (not all) the judge can sentence to life WOP if the jury votes for death, but can not sentence to death if the jury votes for life WOP (or whatever the state’s alternative is).

    So it’s quite legal, and very precedented, for the executive branch (in Texas, that’s the pardons board) to overrule a jury.

    As to what Perry can do–that’s easy. Get up and say “We have a screwed up death penalty system, and we need to fix it. I think this man shouldn’t be put to death, and I want the Pardons Board to reconsider its decision.” At the very least, register his dissent in public.
    Instead he’s glad to defend a governmental system that is complicated and makes irreversible decisions–apparently he doesn’t think small government principles should apply to the area of judicially killing people.

    Because a criminal justice system that can execute two people a month is certainly screwed up. “A Sanhedrin that imposed a death sentence once in seventy years was called a bloody Sanhedrin,” says the Talmud.

    BTW, since I didn’t vote for Obama and don’t support him, making snide remarks about his policy of assassination by drone attack are irrelevant.

    kishnevi (d785be)

  201. 205 was me. Typed in my outdated nom by mistake.

    JBS (d785be)

  202. 204. “Can a loving God really condemn some 99% of humanity to the fires of hell?”

    Not the point, but whether one might vote against an individual knowing little more than their religious affiliation and be ‘rational’.

    I am aware that some Christians take Peter in Acts “since no other name is given under Heaven, which taking hold, we must be saved” as precluding salvation for the lack thereof. They are mistaken.

    I am not aware of a blatant falsehood uttered by a Buddhist or Taoist sage and taught as essential belief. Hinduism is too vast for me to hazard a similar conjecture.

    The argument that one must be given the benefit of the doubt, regardless of their religion, they must not be profiled for believing anything that feels right regardless of internal consistency or outward reality is PC idiocy.

    Romney and Huntsman are thus until they prove me wrong. Orrin Hatch has and I’d vote for him in a NY minute.

    gary gulrud (7f3ebb)

  203. “Romney’s record has to be tempered with the fact that Mass is a blue state and like with Arnold in CA there is very little a gov can do with a blue legislature – something that needs to be remembered when condemnations of Bush fly around.

    However, I cannot imagine a serious financial manager when inheriting a large deficit enacting and pushing for more entitlements like what happened in Mass.”

    EPWJ – A recognition of reality at last? Dustin’s own link reported that increases in spending under Romney were slower than inflation and population growth, something nobody here here wanted to acknowledge. The fact that the legislature could and did frequently override his vetoes, particularly in the area of reducing taxes, was an obstacle to governing.

    Calling Romney a tax and spend liberal based on his term as governor is a false charge.

    Say he increased user fees and used other devices to increase revenues that are equivalent to taxes is true, but so did Perry, but the Perry supporters are in denial over the point. Criticize one, criticize both.

    I don’t understand your point on entitlements. If that is a reference to Romneycare, that subject is to complicated for this thread. My view reading the history is that the legislature implemented it in ways that it in ways not envisioned, substantially increasing its cost and reducing the options originally intended. It is still mandated insurance coverage, but Romney has not been articulate enough about how the original intent was different from the abortion that is ObamaCare.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  204. “So I’m a bigot”

    gary – If the shoe fits…………

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  205. 210. 209. Oh, much worse than a mere bigot.

    gary gulrud (7f3ebb)

  206. A VP like Bolton would do him a heap of good

    I’d rather see Bolton as SecState

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  207. bigot bigot bo bigot banana fana fo figot fee fi mo migot

    bigot!

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  208. I know this is muy tarde but Cain would be Romney’s VP but not Perry’s?

    Rubio says ‘eff ’em all.

    Hmmm.

    gary gulrud (7f3ebb)

  209. Can a loving God really condemn some 99% of humanity to the fires of hell?

    Where are you getting 99% from?

    Gerald A (9d78e8)

  210. I am aware that some Christians take Peter in Acts “since no other name is given under Heaven, which taking hold, we must be saved” as precluding salvation for the lack thereof. They are mistaken.

    How do you know we’re mistaken?

    Gerald A (9d78e8)

  211. 215. The Greek. Did Abraham have the Name?

    Jesus said only one sin will not be forgiven–quenching the Spirit.

    OTOH, John 4:24, “God is Spirit, those who would worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth.”

    QED, worship in sublime ignorance is not esteemed.

    Per Dusty circa 84., “It is practically cliche that God works through sinners”. Indeed, who else? But find a single instance of falsehood presented as “the Word of the LORD”.

    IMHO, BHO is the antiChrist, but so were Mohammed and Joseph Smith. Will there be another?

    gary gulrud (7f3ebb)

  212. More news of the end: All those ARM Jumbo loans, 50% made thru 3rd parties B4 the 2008 crash on declared income, remember them?

    They’re coming due.

    gary gulrud (7f3ebb)

  213. “Deserves”…

    What an interesting word. It takes a pretty colonized mindset to use a word like “deserves” in the context of a democratic political race, particularly a political race in America in 2011.

    These guys don’t “deserve” anything: they don’t “deserve” our support (in the abstract sense that they serve at our pleasure as citizens and that political office is not a reward but a responsibility) and they don’t actually deserve our support (in the concrete sense that they’re a bunch of self-serving, crudely pandering dimwits the likes of which you’d be embarrassed to be associated with in any other capacity.

    To quote the inestimable Hall of Famer nk: “F*ck all these Fake Galts.”

    American Meadow Party 2012

    Leviticus (91e44c)

  214. gulrud thinks Joseph Smith is the antiChrist?

    Larry O’Donnell is ready for your date. Good news, I think you’re gonna get some!

    Icy Texan (9ad7a6)

  215. There is some correlation between Romney;s enacting Romneycare and Bush’s expansion of a prescription drug program.

    The political environment in that period was very fluid, therre was and still is a strong push for some kind of cost intervention in medical decisions.

    Personally, I felt the lowering of interest rates put insurance companies at greater risk as they invest premium payments on – at best can be described – as a quasi annuity system to cover their expected profit/risk/claims return that was fairly stable until a 40 year event of the lowering of interest rates saw a shift from savings to lending and from CD’s to stocks.

    I think this was as much a factor in these banking/housing/medical costs crash as the world economic situation

    But clinton and the democrats had built expectations in the mid 90’s that in a contentious environment – politically Bush and Romney may very well have had to act.

    But Romney needs to explain this and show why these things ar not a good thing instead of never admitting he was forced too or it was a mistake to give in

    EricPWJohnson (8a4ca7)

  216. So it’s quite legal, and very precedented, for the executive branch (in Texas, that’s the pardons board) to overrule a jury.

    First, the fact other systems do it legally doesn’t matter too much. That judges sentence folks to death ‘in antiquity’ is not legally relevant. In Perry’s case, it’s juries who do it. It works well.

    More to the point, in Perry’s case, only if that board intervenes does Perry have any power, and it’s limited even when they do.

    It just isn’t the case that Perry presides over these executions.

    At the very least, register his dissent in public.

    Right. That’s what anybody could do, right?

    This amounts to asking why Perry has faith in a criminal justice system that does a good job. He soberly explained why he agrees with Texas’s policies. If you don’t actually agree, obviously there’s a reason not to support him, but that’s all there is to it.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  217. Where are you getting 99% from?

    Comment by Gerald A — 10/7/2011 @ 8:30 am

    99% may be too high but the point is that the majority of the world’s population practice other faiths besides Christianity. Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists make up some 60% alone based on populations.

    vor2 (6c8528)

  218. Leviticus,

    I miss nk.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  219. I miss nk too he is as wise as he is kind-hearted plus also he’s idiosyncratic in the very best way

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  220. Comment by happyfeet — 10/7/2011 @ 11:01 am

    Did he decide to quit commenting here? Hope all is well with him.

    vor2 (6c8528)

  221. Anyone who isn’t enamored with Perry or Romney is apparently a bigot.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  222. 219. Ah, Odd Job already has me chalked in–I voted for Bachmann the last two times out.

    gary gulrud (7f3ebb)

  223. Oh, so here’s what Michele is up to. Politicians just love to force people to do stuff, don’t they? Right or left–they can’t help themselves, it seems.

    To keep them happy, Bachmann has now proposed the “Heartbeat Informed Consent Act,” a congressional bill that would make it federally mandatory that a woman who wants to terminate a pregnancy would have to undergo an ultrasound, and that the technician or doctor would have to “make the unborn child’s heartbeat visible through ultrasound, describe the cardiac activity, and make the baby’s heartbeat audible, if the child is old enough for it to be detectable.”

    Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/bachmann-proposes-heartbeat-informed-consent-act-to-win-presidential-support.html

    elissa (798274)

  224. Elissa why did you link to a feminazi website?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  225. 228. Michele has written or sponsored over 100 pieces of legislation. Still an enactment version.

    Urkel voted twice to off survivors of partial-birth abortions.

    Some of the children are irate about States executing killers.

    Know what it takes to execute when no crime is committed?

    Federal tax dollars.

    gary gulrud (7f3ebb)

  226. “version”

    oh look at that, ‘virgin’.

    gary gulrud (7f3ebb)

  227. Vortex would like to establish the divinity of the trinity through the referendum process.

    Icy Texan (9ad7a6)

  228. Icy Texan’s earthly dreams of eternal bliss center on sitting on Jesus’ lap high fiving him as the names of the damned are read off the list.

    vor2 (6c8528)

  229. “99% may be too high but the point is that the majority of the world’s population practice other faiths besides Christianity.”

    gary – North of 75% of Americans still self-identify as Christians. That majority you speak of does not vote in our elections. What’s your point?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  230. “Personally, I felt the lowering of interest rates put insurance companies at greater risk as they invest premium payments on – at best can be described – as a quasi annuity system to cover their expected profit/risk/claims return that was fairly stable until a 40 year event of the lowering of interest rates saw a shift from savings to lending and from CD’s to stocks.”

    EPWJ – Would not the degree of risk depend on the line of insurance? Short tail lines such as homeowners and personal auto would be less affected, while longer tail lines such as workers’ comp and whole life would be more exposed. Lower investment yields puts pressure on insurers to make their money from underwriting.

    The general absence of widespread insurance failures in reaction to the lower interest rates suggests their investment portfolios have been managed responsibly. AIG was an aberration, since the bozos tripled up on their exposure to the housing sector.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  231. Because a criminal justice system that can execute two people a month is certainly screwed up. “A Sanhedrin that imposed a death sentence once in seventy years was called a bloody Sanhedrin,” says the Talmud.

    1. That’s over what size population, with what demographics?

    2. The sanhedrins were not just courts but legislatures and educators, and were responsible for the moral climate of society; the Mishneh says that a sanhedrin ought to be able to get the crime rate in an average city of the time low enough that capital crimes only happen once in seven years (another opinion, wildly optimistic, says seventy). That doesn’t mean that it may turn a blind eye to crime, and deliberately not punish it in order to keep its execution stats down! On the contrary, that’s a guaranteed way to cause even more crime.

    3. Despite this general attitude, Shimon ben Shatach hanged eighty women in one day. When the crimes have been committed and proven, justice must follow and damn the statistics.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  232. 234. Seems to be addressing vor2.

    gary gulrud (7f3ebb)

  233. Because a criminal justice system that can execute two people a month is certainly screwed up.

    Gary didn’t say that.

    And the point is not political, but moral. The point, which I thought was basic and easy for any honest reader to understand, is that some just don’t think God is evil enough to damn all these people with different good faith religious views. It’s a basic controversy folks have different opinions about, but the jist of it is that it’s not our place to try to resolve such matters.

    A lot of people have wondered what’s damnable about a good person with the wrong faith. Responding with a comment about who is eligible to vote is just weird. It’s like you’re a kneejerk defender who isn’t even trying to understand the flow of the conversation or something.

    Because a criminal justice system that can execute two people a month is certainly screwed up. “A Sanhedrin that imposed a death sentence once in seventy years was called a bloody Sanhedrin,” says the Talmud.

    BTW, since I didn’t vote for Obama and don’t support him, making snide remarks about his policy of assassination by drone attack are irrelevant.

    Comment by kishnevi — 10/7/2011 @ 6:38 am

    A) it is TOTALLY relevant that a death penalty after trials and appeals is far more judicious and reasonable than trial-less execution that just occurred. Know the world we are discussing.

    B) Who on earth are you to judge an entire system of justice wrong on such an arbitrary basis as “two executions per month must mean they are really bad”?

    You’re really saying you don’t like the result, not that you think the result was unjust. You just want to impose your politics over juries who actually considered whether someone murdered (with extra criminality on top) and deserves the death penalty.

    Perry answered this perfectly. He has confidence is a system he understands to work fairly. He respects the people and their proper role as juror. Instead of giving this serious power to a philosopher king, it belongs to the people, which is a strong reconstruction type reform all other jurisdictions should adopt.

    You really want to say ‘I don’t like the death penalty those who sentenced folks to die must be wrong’, which is fine. Have whatever opinions you like. But the death penalty is what we as Texans have decided to use in the worse cases.

    In my opinion, every time some philosopher king over rules a death penalty on some ad hoc excuse, but really because they want to reduce or eliminate all executions, they are tyrants.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  234. My first quote in comment 238 is wrong. I meant to quote Daley’s comment:

    gary – North of 75% of Americans still self-identify as Christians. That majority you speak of does not vote in our elections. What’s your point?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 10/7/2011 @ 12:49 pm

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  235. I’m not feeling a tingle for Cain. Bet Perry reels him back in.

    gary gulrud (7f3ebb)

  236. gary – North of 75% of Americans still self-identify as Christians. That majority you speak of does not vote in our elections. What’s your point?

    It sounds like it’s located at the top of his head.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  237. how much gul ruda
    gul rud rud if a gulrud
    could rud gul… say what?

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  238. worship in slimy ignorance, gary.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  239. This amounts to asking why Perry has faith in a criminal justice system that does a good job

    Your faith in the ability of your state to properly deliver the correct outcome is touching, and totally naive. It also is evidence of my belief that “conservatives” believe in limited government only in certain areas, and not others.

    But I repeat–the very fact that Texas can execute a person every two weeks is a very good sign that the system is broke, and Perry is very much part of that system, even if he isn’t the one to pull the switch.

    And I was referring earlier to how the death penalty operated before the Supreme Court threw the whole setup out the door a generation ago (don’t remember the date at the moment). Well within my lifetime and that of several others here, and by no means something that happened “in antiquity”. But my main point is that the executive branch stepping in and throwing out death penalties is very much a part of the system, and very constitutional and very much a part of established practice as long as we’ve had a legal system. Jury verdicts are not Holy Writ which can not be attacked, unless they are acquittals in a criminal trial. And even then prosecutors will sometimes try to get around that…

    Milhouse–not sure what recension of the Mishnah you’re reading, but your statement there doesn’t really correspond to what the Mishnah says–which is that Chazal expected every Sanhedrin to do its best to avoid imposing a death penalty. But you will also recall that the standard procedure for people who were guilty but were allowed to escape the death penalty was life imprisonment on very slim rations…But l’shanah tovah and an easy Fast,etc. etc.

    jbs (d785be)

  240. DRJ and happyfeet,

    The personification of ideological independence, that fellow – taught me a lot by example.

    Idiosyncratic is a good word for it.

    Leviticus (7acba2)

  241. I’m not feeling a tingle for Cain. Bet Perry reels him back in.

    Comment by gary gulrud — 10/7/2011 @ 1:41 pm

    Cain appears to want Romney to be the nominee, so obviously I have a problem there.

    Otherwise, the guy is a straight shooter. Totally unpolished and gaffe prone, and frankly not as ready for this as Perry is.

    There’s so much more to being a president than the gameshow stuff.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  242. Like, for instance, I stopped assuming I knew where people stood on a given political issue because I knew where they stood on other political issues. Which was a good lesson to learn.

    Leviticus (7acba2)

  243. not that you think the result was unjust
    Actually, I am saying just that–only an unjust system would be able to provide such a result.

    And that’s not even considering the religious argument–viz. that only God has the right to put an end to life, no matter what the circumstances are. “Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord”–which means it belongs to no one except Him.

    jbs (d785be)

  244. Leviticus,

    I hope nk sees your comment. It’s well-deserved and probably the best compliment you could give him.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  245. Your faith in the ability of your state to properly deliver the correct outcome is touching, and totally naive. It also is evidence of my belief that “conservatives” believe in limited government only in certain areas, and not others.

    It’s not faith. It’s observation.

    And the fact that I don’t want a judge or governor overruling juries merely because they don’t like capital punishment is a sign of hypocrisy? What in the world are you talking about? It is completely consistent with my other political views.

    But my main point is that the executive branch stepping in and throwing out death penalties is very much a part of the system,

    Just because you assert it should be, and because someone’s done it before? That’s all you got?

    That’s why the governor is personally presiding over executions? Just because some other system is set up that way?

    Jury verdicts are not Holy Writ which can not be attacked

    This is a straw man. No one is saying we shouldn’t use appeals and even pardons in cases that actually should see one.

    Your example got appeals and was considered for a pardon and rejected. At no point did Perry have a say in that specific case.

    Your reasoning is that Perry should ignore Texas’s law because some other jurisdiction has a different law. It is absurd, and Perry cannot do that. He would be removed from office if he did, as would be the right thing to do.

    You aren’t mad at Perry. You’re mad at Texas’s policies, and so you’re really mad at democracy.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  246. jbs, instead of replying to my response to Kishnevi with ‘that’s not what I’m saying’, read ALL the comments. Not everything I’m saying is directed at you, particularly responses that actually quote someone else’s view.

    Actually, I am saying just that–only an unjust system would be able to provide such a result.

    Why in the world would you rely on such a shortcut around the matter of whether someone actually committed murder? It’s totally unreasonable.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  247. “In that context, Romney’s rousing speech on foreign policy at the Citadel today provided some welcome clarity about the contrast he plans to draw between his ideas and those of President Obama. Romney’s unapologetic statement of American exceptionalism and devotion to the promotion of freedom as well as his understanding of the threats facing the country from Islamism, Iran, as well as China and Russia, provides encouragement for conservatives who have been waiting to hear whether he is up to the task of being commander-in-chief.”

    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/10/07/romney-foreign-policy-speech/

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  248. 248. Who said anything about vengeance, its appropriate.

    Paying $100K a year to keep a Bundy alive is sick.

    gary gulrud (7f3ebb)

  249. There is a certain bigotry against Texans that our criminal justice system executes more because we are sloppier and all these defendants got terrible attorneys or were framed by zealous psycho DAs and Hollywood’s depiction of a Texas sheriff.

    That is not reality.

    The real difference between Texas and other states is largely that some other large states have politicians and judged interfere with results that liberals don’t like.

    Your faith in the ability of your state to properly deliver the correct outcome is touching, and totally naive.

    There it is!

    Contempt. Those who actually know something about Texas’s justice system must be naive fools. The outsider who is repeating irrational talking points knows all about all this corruption.

    Oh, and he’s touched and pats me on the head for being such a cute little naive kiddo.

    In reality, I know this is a grim chore that Texas takes very seriously. Much more seriously than the folks who assert injustice but can’t back that up, and are actually opposed simply on political grounds.

    Well, I think we all know this is a winning political issue for Perry, hence the impotent and sneering elitism.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  250. Rick Perry’s response? “Just look at what we done in Texas.”

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  251. Haiku, the left is really really mad Romney keeps citing Obama’s apology tour.

    I admit I really enjoy that.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  252. jbs, instead of replying to my response to Kishnevi …
    Comment by Dustin — 10/7/2011 @ 2:04 pm

    jbs is kishnevi. He made the name-change quite a while ago and accidently typed in the old name earlier (then pointed it out in the next comment) by mistake.

    I don’t agree with him here by any means. The number per month has nothing to do with how just the system is. Also, it’s not vengeance. It’s a consequence that has been deemed necessary by the people. That said, I will always listen to anything jbs has to say with respect, despite our differing opinions on many topics.

    Stashiu3 (601b7d)

  253. Rick Perry’s response? “Just look at what we done in Texas.”

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/7/2011 @ 2:15 pm

    Perry is governor of a state the size of a country, with more export revenue than any other state, and a ton of interaction with another country.

    In fact, Perry has been engaged in relations with Israel since before he was even governor, because of our agriculture.

    He’s simply more connected and involved on this issue.

    But Romney gave a great speech. I’m sure Perry can hire whoever wrote it.

    I think Perry does have a weak spot on foreign policy, because he’s not Bush and I don’t think his foreign policy would be like Bush’s, but so many will hold Bush’s positions against him anyway.

    I think this election won’t be about foreign policy (I personally think it should be a huge issue).

    Anyway, Perry has been giving speeches too. It isn’t true that he is just pointing to his ample resume.

    However, I think Romney’s fans must find it annoying that Perry has such a great resume to constantly point to.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  254. jbs, kishnevi,

    I sincerely apologize. Did not realize you were the same guy.

    That said, I will always listen to anything jbs has to say with respect, despite our differing opinions on many topics.

    Comment by Stashiu3 — 10/7/2011 @ 2:21 pm

    For the record, I sometimes disagree with kishnevi (and sometimes don’t), but I have come to always respect his view a lot. I think I just got annoyed because the flow of the argument didn’t make any sense to me, and also I really don’t appreciate those who assume confidence in Texas’s justice system must be ignorant.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  255. Romney’s Foreign Policy/National Security Advisers:

    Cofer Black, Vice President of Blackbird Technologies; Director of the CIA Counter-Terrorism Center (1999-2002); United States Department of State Coordinator for Counter-Terrorism (2002-2004)

    Christopher Burnham, Vice Chairman of Deutsche Bank Asset Management; United Nations Under-Secretary-General for Management (2005-2006); United States Under Secretary of State for Management (2001-2005)

    Michael Chertoff, Chairman of the Chertoff Group; United States Secretary of Homeland Security (2005-2009); Judge on the United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit (2003-2005)

    Eliot Cohen, Director of the Strategic Studies Program at the School of Advanced International Studies, Johns Hopkins University; Counselor to the United States Department of State (2007-2009); Defense Policy Advisory Board Member (2001-2009)

    Norm Coleman, Chairman of the Board, American Action Network; Adviser to the Republican Jewish Coalition; United States Senator (R-MN) (2003-2009)

    John Danilovich, Member of the Trilantic European Advisory Council; CEO of Millennium Challenge Corporation (2005-2009); Ambassador to Brazil (2004-2005); Ambassador to Costa Rica (2001-2004)

    Paula Dobriansky, Senior Fellow at the John F. Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University; Under Secretary of State for Democracy and Global Affairs (2001-2009)

    Eric Edelman, Visiting Scholar at School of Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins University; Under Secretary of Defense for Policy (2005-2009); Principal Deputy Assistant to the Vice President for National Security Affairs (2001-2003)

    Michael Hayden, Principal of the Chertoff Group; Director of the Central Intelligence Agency (2006-2009); Director of the National Security Agency (1999-2005)

    Kerry Healey, President, Friends of the Public-Private Partnership for Justice Reform in Afghanistan; Lieutenant Governor of Massachusetts (2003-2007); Trustee, American University of Afghanistan

    Kim Holmes, Vice President of Foreign and Defense Policy Studies at the Heritage Foundation; Assistant Secretary of State for International Organization Affairs (2001-2005)

    Robert Joseph, Senior Scholar at the National Institute for Public Policy; Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security (2005-2007)

    Robert Kagan, Syndicated Columnist; Senior Fellow at the Brookings Institution in the Center on United States and Europe; Board Member of the Foreign Policy Initiative

    John Lehman, Chairman and Founding Partner, J. F. Lehman & Co.; National Security Advisory Counsel for the Center for Security Policy; Secretary of the Navy (1981-1987); Member of the 9/11 Commission

    Walid Phares, Professor of Global Strategies at the National Defense University in Washington; Member of the Advisory Board of the Task Force on Future Terrorism at the Department of Homeland Security (2006-2007)

    Pierre Prosper, Partner at Arent Fox; United States Ambassador-at-Large for War Crimes Issues (2001-2005); Special Counsel and Policy Adviser to the Ambassador-at-Large for War Crimes Issues (1999-2001)

    Mitchell Reiss, President of Washington College; Director of Policy Planning at State Department (2001-2005); Special Envoy for Northern Ireland (2005-2007)

    Daniel Senor, Partner at Rosemont Capital; Coalition Provisional Authority Spokesman and Senior Advisor (2003-2004); Director and Co-Founder, Foreign Policy Initiative

    Jim Talent, Distinguished Fellow at the Heritage Foundation; United States Senator (R-MO) (2002-2007)

    Vin Weber, Managing Partner, Clark & Weinstock; Member of the United States House of Representatives (R-Minn.) (1981-1993)

    Richard Williamson, Partner at Winston & Strawn; United States Ambassador to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights (2004); Special Envoy to Sudan (2008-2009); Assistant Secretary of State for International Organization Affairs (1988-1989)

    Dov Zakheim, Senior Advisor at the Center for Strategic and International Studies; Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller) (2001-2004); Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Planning and Resources (1985-1987)

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/mitt-romney-taps-foreign-policy-national-security-advisers/2011/10/06/gIQAnDHzPL_story.html

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  256. Here are Romney’s 13 working groups and their leaders, as announced by the Romney campaign:

    Afghanistan & Pakistan Working Group

    James Shinn, Co-Chair, Lecturer at Princeton University; Assistant Secretary of Defense for Asian and Pacific Security Affairs (2007-2008)

    Ashley Tellis, Co-Chair, Senior Associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace; Senior Adviser to the Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs (2003)

    Africa Working Group

    Tibor Nagy, Chair, Vice Provost for International Affairs at Texas Tech University; Ambassador to Ethiopia (1999-2002); Ambassador to Guinea (1996-1999)

    Asia-Pacific Working Group

    Evan Feigenbaum, Co-Chair, Executive Director of the Paulson Institute; Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asia (2006-2009); Member for East Asia, Secretary of State’s Policy Planning Staff (2001-2006)

    Aaron Friedberg, Co-Chair, Professor of Politics and International Affairs at Princeton University; Deputy Assistant for National Security Affairs and Director of Policy Planning, Office of the Vice President (2003-2005)

    Kent Lucken, Co-Chair, Director at Citigroup Private Bank in Boston; Former Foreign Service Officer; Board Member for the US-Asia Institute

    Counter-Proliferation Working Group

    Eric Edelman, Co-Chair, Visiting Scholar at School of Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins University; Under Secretary of Defense for Policy (2005-2009); Principal Deputy Assistant to the Vice President for National Security Affairs (2001-2003)

    Robert Joseph, Co-Chair, Senior Scholar at the National Institute for Public Policy; Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security (2005-2007)

    Stephen Rademaker, Co-Chair, Principal at Podesta Group; Assistant Secretary of State for International Security and Nonproliferation (2002-2006); Policy Director for National Security Affairs and Senior Counsel to Sen. Bill Frist (2006-2007)

    Counterterrorism & Intelligence Working Group

    Michael Chertoff, Co-Chair, Chairman of the Chertoff Group; Secretary of Homeland Security (2005-2009); Judge on the United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit (2003-2005)

    Michael Hayden, Co-Chair, Principal of the Chertoff Group; Director of the Central Intelligence Agency (2006-2009); Director of the National Security Agency (1999-2005)

    Defense Working Group

    John Lehman, Co-Chair, Chairman and Founding Partner, J.F. Lehman & Co.; National Security Advisory Council for the Center for Security Policy; Secretary of the Navy (1981-1987); Member of the 9/11 Commission

    Roger Zakheim, Co-Chair, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense (2008-2009)

    Europe Working Group

    Nile Gardiner, Co-Chair, Director of the Heritage Foundation’s Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom; Foreign Policy Researcher for British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher (2000-2002)

    Kristen Silverberg, Co-Chair, Chief Operating Officer at Vorbeck Materials; Ambassador to the European Union (2008-2009); Assistant Secretary of State for International Organization Affairs (2005-2008)

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/mitt-romney-taps-foreign-policy-national-security-advisers/2011/10/06/gIQAnDHzPL_story.html

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  257. That seems rather ridiculous to me.

    I wonder, how much is Romney paying all these people? Is this like with T Paw?

    Something is really sick about this political party.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  258. Rick Perry’s response? “Just look at what we been doin’ in Texas.”

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  259. Hit the ground runnin’, son! This ain’t no ro-day-oh.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  260. a presumptuous boob is what Romney is… I found a new cupcakery today it’s called Frosted … they were really exemplary I had black velvet and strawberry cream cheese even though I’m on cupcake restriction

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  261. Anyway, Haiku, I sincerely am curious if you’re aware of a significant difference in the foreign policy agenda of these two candidates.

    I grant Romney appears to have assembled an enormous dream team of advisers. And you probably grant Perry has more foreign policy experience, having governed a border state with tremendous exports for so long. And his military service, etc etc.

    But what are their real differences? They both talk generally about a strong defense and oppose the apology tour.

    One thing I’m curious about is whether Romney, unencumbered by a… job… has been outspoken on foreign policy issues when they are in controversy. One of the few things I liked about Mccain was how he would be outspoken in defense of a controversial issue, such as Lebanon or the Surge. Perry hasn’t been doing that beyond advocating for Texas (which isn’t controversial). Has Romney been? Sincere question.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  262. more like he’s gettin’ to be the presumptive nominee.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  263. Rick Perry’s response? “Just look at what we been doin’ in Texas.”

    Comment by ColonelHaiku

    I think his supporters are left to obfuscate, conflate and inflate and many of them seem to do it without shame or any thought for the damage that causes when interested parties do some research.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/6/2011 @ 7:05 pm

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  264. I haven’t read anything about Perry’s take on foreign policy, Dustin. What are the specifics?

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  265. Has the guy said much more than that during the debates, Dustin? If he has – and I admit I’ve had to back away from the TV a time or two when Perry appeared to have lost blood flow to the brain – I haven’t heard or read it.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  266. Actually, I am saying just that–only an unjust system would be able to provide such a resu

    That’s an unproven assertion. Where’s your proof?

    Chuck Bartowski (4c6c0c)

  267. more like he’s gettin’ to be the presumptive nominee.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/7/2011 @ 2:44 pm

    Don’t count your chickens yet.

    I think Romney is a weak candidate, hence the need to bring all these other people, often paid for, to compensate.

    As you have repeatedly noted, Perry can actually point to his foreign policy credential while you also note Romney has to point to the credentials of his 600 advisers.

    Let’s think about this for a moment. Perry is burning through his campaign funds like a true conservative. Romney is blowing enormous sums on a cadre of academics. Is that why Romney had to go into debt as a candidate in the past? Loaning his own fortune to his campaign?

    Yeah, Romney’s speech is great and his advisers probably are quite smart, but is that going how he governs this country? Throw enormous sums of money at any problem?

    I like Perry’s way better, even if you think it boils down to Perry pointing to his experiences.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  268. “Icing on the Cupcake” in Sacramento and Roseville, happyfeet. The rest are pretenders to the cupcake throne.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  269. I would love to go but… I don’t ever get to those towns. Someday maybe.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  270. As you have repeatedly noted, Perry can actually point to his foreign policy credential

    Put the bong down and slowly back away. When have I ever written such a thing?

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  271. I haven’t read anything about Perry’s take on foreign policy, Dustin. What are the specifics?

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/7/2011 @ 2:45 pm

    The link I had above is more or less as detailed as Romney’s ‘I won’t apologize for America’ speech.

    But I frankly don’t take Perry or Romney’s speeches too seriously after Bush’s 2000 campaign, with a foreign policy bearing zero resemblance or relevance to a post 9/11 America. Also Obama’s was inaccurate, but hey, he was just lying.

    Anyway, I’ve heard a lot of Perry foreign policy comments like

    “Iran is one of the great problems in the Middle East,” Perry said. “They are, I would suggest, the greatest threat to the future of Israel. And in ‘09, we naively were having conversations with the Syrian and the Iranian governments, rather than supporting that civil uprising in that country.…We should have been using everything that we had available — our diplomatic abilities, our economic sanctions, overt, covert and civic — to impact and help overthrow one of the most oppressive regimes that there is in the world, and we failed.”

    I look for the general character of the candidate. I don’t think it’s realistic to ask the candidate to actually plan out his foreign policy agenda beyond some rather obvious things that I honestly think Romney and Perry are on the same page on.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  272. Dustin… as many have noted, it will be make or break for Rick Perry during this month’s debates. Perhaps he is the sterling fellow you and a few others say he is. Perhaps not.

    In any case, There. Will. Be. Sparks.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  273. Hadn’t seen your link, so just read the excerpts from his speech. Pretty standard fare.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  274. I like Col, but this constant deep throating of Romeny and the constant denigration of Perry is beyond tiresome. It is epwj-esque.

    JD (318f81)

  275. It appears Donald Rumsfeld and Doug Feith are Perry’s foreign policy advisers. This should end well.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  276. You admitted your dislike of Romney, JD. I don’t dislike Perry and I’ll vote for him in a heartbeat if he’s the nominee.

    If he isn’t and you can’t or won’t vote for Romney (if nominated), you need psychiatric counseling.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  277. Icy Texan’s earthly dreams of eternal bliss center on sitting on Jesus’ lap high fiving him as the names of the damned are read off the list.
    Comment by vor2 — 10/7/2011 @ 12:43 pm

    — Listen up, voice-of-unreason: since I limited my comment to voicing an opinion about what you actually wrote, you may feel free to do the same. Take your opinion of my completely unexpressed religious beliefs and shove it up your ar$e . . . next to your head.

    Icy Texan (9ad7a6)

  278. and your allegations of homosexuality on my part are beyond the pale!

    But funny.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  279. When did JD alledge that you are a homo?

    Icy Texan (9ad7a6)

  280. Romney’s experts include a fair number of former Bush people, which surprises me a little. It might bother others but it’s not a bad thing to me since I think prior experience is a plus. Overall, though, many of them have business experience and that’s not surprising since Romney said earlier he would favor business people for cabinet posts and, presumably, as his advisers.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  281. Post 281, Icy Texan. The man hurt my feelings!

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  282. I like Rumsfeld a lot but my understanding is that Rumsfeld isn’t one of Perry’s advisers. Unfortunately. However, Rumsfeld’s office has helped Perry’s office get in touch with people including Douglas Feith.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  283. I’d be crushed if I didn’t know he rides a girl’s bike wearing a funny crash helmet.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  284. I like ‘Rumsfeld and Feith, but…

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  285. Colonel coolest when
    referencing kick-butt Rolling
    Stones songs; man can rock!

    Icy Texan (9ad7a6)

  286. Icy T, the last lyric line in that song (at the 1:35 mark) get’s me every time, lol.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  287. Put the bong down and slowly back away. When have I ever written such a thing?

    Comment by ColonelHaiku —

    It was a tongue in cheek reference to your point that Perry will point to how ‘they’ (as in Perry, of course) does things in Texas.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  288. Leftys-Keep on supporting a self-destructive agenda

    Irony much leftoids?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  289. Oh, I see… you were being sarcastic.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  290. just boil colonel’s grits
    and give him “T” for Texas
    “T” for Tennessee

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  291. I like DustinCol, but this constant deep throating of PerryRomeny and the constant denigration of RomneyPerry is beyond tiresome. It is epwj-esque.

    JD – Fixed

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  292. Unlike certain Romney fans, I readily grant Perry’s flaws and in fact have brought many up here before anyone else. I prefer Perry to the others, but I noted by reasoning years before Perry was running. He just happens to fit what I’m looking for better than others running do.

    The idea I’m a hack for Perry is simply incorrect.

    I also grant Romney credit when it’s justified, though I admit I look on his worst flop flops with disdain. Also, he’s got so many deal breaking positions in his past and he’s always MIA on the issues until it’s easy.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  293. Take your opinion of my completely unexpressed religious beliefs and shove it up your ar$e . . . next to your head.

    Comment by Icy Texan — 10/7/2011 @ 3:05 pm

    Come on Mousy Texan give me a high five!

    vor2 (806546)

  294. Vor2 dreams of sitting on a naked helen thomas’s lap stroking her old mangina.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  295. So is Sarah dead to rush?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  296. Hugh Hewitt has a pretty good take:

    http://www.hughhewitt.com/blog/g/d2fb061c-96b5-4aea-a55c-c2dc635959e0

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  297. Nice friends ya got there, Gubner Perry!

    At the Value Voters Summit in Washington D.C. today, Rick Perry was introduced by Robert Jeffress, the senior pastor of a Baptist megachurch in Dallas, Tex. In his introduction, Jeffress endorsed Perry — and appeared to take a shot at Mitt Romney’s Mormon faith, although he did not mention Romney by name.

    “Do we want a candidate who is a conservative out of convenience or one who is a conservative out of deep conviction? Do we want a candidate who is a good, moral person — or one who is a born-again follower of the lord Jesus Christ?” Jeffress asked, according to ABC News. Perry, Jeffress said, was a “genuine follower of Jesus Christ.”

    Talking to reporters afterwards, Jeffress said Mormonism was a “cult,” according to CBS News.

    “That is a mainstream view, that Mormonism is a cult. Every true, born again follower of Christ ought to embrace a Christian over a non-Christian,” Jeffress remarked.

    Perry spokesman Mark Miner told CBS, “The governor does not believe Mormonism is a cult.”

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/279553/pastor-who-introduces-perry-calls-mormonism-cult-katrina-trinko

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  298. PAT,

    Just for the record, ummm I had nothing to do with the harmonious nature of this thread

    EricPWJohnson (8a4ca7)

  299. haiku,

    Most Perry supporters don’t feel that way, and Perry rejected that view.

    I’m sure if I really hunt for it, I can find someone who prefers Romney to the other GOP candidates who said something really lame too, but it just doesn’t seem like a helpful exercise.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  300. You clearly haven’t seen the Mormon clique at Rightosphere, but Jeffress, manages the three
    Huck rule, which is an achievement of sorts.

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  301. why did Mr. Governor Perry feel he needed to pander to creepy evangelicals again? He already had his monster truck prayer rally and he’s already taken every silly pledge any gap-toothed bible-thumping hamburger-helper-cooking creationist wackadoodle waved in his face. It’s time to pander to me Mr. Governor Perry. It’s my turn. Not them. Me.

    Me me me it’s all about me.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  302. 306. “I had nothing to do with the harmonious nature of this thread”

    Never say we don’t have yer back, PeeWee.

    gary gulrud (7f3ebb)

  303. 309. “It’s time to pander to me Mr. Governor Perry. It’s my turn.”

    Not that we’re stalkers or anything dark, but just what demographic might that be, Mr. Feets?

    gary gulrud (7f3ebb)

  304. gary

    Okay -I’m throwing this grenade in the room

    http://www.nationaljournal.com/columns/cook-report/the-cook-report-it-s-perry-s-to-win-20111006

    EricPWJohnson (8a4ca7)

  305. Quit lying about Perry you romney worshipping cocksmoker.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  306. 312. Yes, that makes up for a passel of stinkers.

    The Daniels, Ryan and Christie supplicants certainly weren’t Rombots.

    gary gulrud (7f3ebb)

  307. I’m just a little pikachu Mr. Gulrud nobody never panders to me

    and yet i persevere

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  308. Neither Perry nor Romney can control everything their supporters say and do. Maybe the supporter’s cult comment won’t hurt Perry any more than the super-PAC financing question seems to have hurt Romney.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  309. DRJ

    Dont be hatin 😉

    EricPWJohnson (8a4ca7)

  310. Mother Jones… the most trusted name in news…

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  311. You clearly haven’t seen the Mormon clique at Rightosphere

    No, but I have seen the Perry clique right heyah.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  312. I’ve made the point that one of the reasons I despised the Huck, was his reopening at least a century conflict that been rightfully resolved,

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  313. Speaking of bigotry:

    “Protestants the world over thank God for the continued witness and presence of the Catholic, Orthodox and Coptic churches, our elder brethren in Christ.

    Absolutely different and superior from modern mailine Protestant sects-utterly lost to their own rich theologic traditions-is the Catholic in its regard for a God who is both immanent and transcendent.”

    http://wizbangblog.com/2011/02/17/gods-presence-is-more-than-ethereal/

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  314. ” and there’s more where that came from: Sorry, Religion is fair game. I won’t vote for a Muslim, an Atheist, a Global Warmer, a Scientologist, a Moonie, ….

    You have a problem with my calling anyone who thinks god the Father lives on the planet Kolob, that Joseph Smith was his prophet, etc., unfit? Think I’m a bigot?

    GTFO.”

    Of course: “Every religion has strange beliefs, yours included!”

    Jer. 42:9 Is a sufficient proof that Mormonism has nothing to do with Judaeo-Christian religion.”

    on the other hand: “Your argument that religion isn’t important enough to enter into politics is hardly so obvious that we who disagree should feel ashamed at the mere mention that we have disputes among us.

    We’re here largely because our ancestors sought religious freedom, to believe and worship as we chose, not to fall into line in some socio-economic conformity.

    If we were ‘good-Christians’ we wouldn’t bother with politics at all. Deal with it.”

    and then there’s: “To save you time, on the continuum of evil stretching from Barack Obama thru Jim Jones to Hitler/Stalin/MaoTseTung, my review of LDS works, e.g. the ‘Doctrines and Covenants’, and timely accounts, e.g., the biography of Eliza Young, 13th wife of Brigham, I would guess Joseph Smith to fall somewhere between Obama and Jones.

    He was a congenital fraud, i.e., he couldn’t help himself, but there is no heaven to welcome him.”

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=16&ved=0CD4QFjAFOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thegatewaypundit.com%2F2011%2F07%2Fdisgusting-memphis-reporter-mocks-mitt-romneys-mormonism-video%2F&rct=j&q=gary%20gulrud&ei=Z6aPTrbTKMrksQKr97iNDg&usg=AFQjCNGzMZwk9R0YqxJHMSl0xw86lOfKxg&cad=rja

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  315. Oh look now there is an Al sharpton clone on hot air calling Perry a racist.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  316. ColonelHaiku,

    I’d vote for Perry or Romney without hesitation. If Romney wins the GOP nomination, do you think enough evangelicals will vote for him? Maybe it won’t matter but I’m curious what you think and if you’ve seen any recent polling or analysis about this.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  317. DRJ–Interesting question @325. Do you even have a guess as to how many (percentage-wise) Republicans/independents are evangelicals in comparison to Catholics, mainline Protestant, Jewish, Mormon, Hindu, non-affiliated? I suppose there is a chart somewhere but I have no idea where to look.

    It seems that a lot would depend on how much people are influenced from the pulpit about politics.

    elissa (bf28bd)

  318. Re: #325, DRJ… I have no idea. I have hope that if Romney’s the nominee, Republicans – be they conservative or “moderate” – and independents, would have enough sense and motivation to vote to rid the country of this far-left extremist we have as president. But I’ve read enough comments from people like alleged “Christians” like Gary Gulrud, let alone evangelicals, to create doubt.

    Perhaps these folks should use the power of prayer to help them gain the wisdom they will need.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  319. Perhaps these folks should use the power of prayer to help them gain the wisdom they will need.

    Snark this may be, but it’s well said. I agree. Folks with this hang-up should pray about it.

    I think Romney can win these people over, though. Even if I don’t love the guy, as far as I know, his kids are good people and he’s scandal free. Compared to the guy who had Rev Wright baptize his kids?

    I agree with your use of the word “motivation”. That’s what it boils down to. That’s why I’m less concerned with the kind of person who has the mormon hang-up and so very much concerned about the kind of person who has a problem working for RINO types.

    I’ve worked on political campaigns. Used to be at the volunteer level, and more recently have been at the lowish staff level. These folks need to believe in their candidate. It can’t all be opposition to the other party.

    Some think a GOP that always winds up having some excuse why the right is getting screwed again is a hopeless solution to our country, and these folks will either be far less motivated, or actually motivated to see the GOP fail. We already have what could transform into a new political party.

    I don’t think it will work. I think a third party, if it won major elections, would just suffer the same problems the GOP does very quickly. The problem is what Elissa said. These folks are politicians.

    I firmly think the right thing to do is fight hard in the primaries, making no concessions other than fairness, for a conservative candidate. Those sick and tired of thinks like the conservative bloc’s vote being split as the moderate vote splitters resign under pressure and take funds to endorse and unify, those sick and tired of billionaires saying ‘Romney is our candidate, Perry is not a factor, it’s up to me, not you stupid voter’ should permanently close their wallets to the RNC and start volunteering for candidates in primaries.

    Sometimes, that won’t work, and we need to regroup after the primary and work together. But until then, ignore the Frum style pundits and vote for the most conservative guy who can win, which simply isn’t Romney.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  320. No snark. That’s what I remember telling a Lutheran co-worker many years ago when he talked of what he termed “foolish people” being converted to Mormonism, “which is a cult, not a “true Christian faith.”

    I told him the “foolish people” were always counseled to pray for a sign that this choice was the right thing for them before they entered the baptismal font. It’s what I always do, in addition to asking for counsel from my wife, before I make any big decision.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  321. May the best candidate – qualified to lead all Americans – be the one that wins the Republican nomination.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  322. Just for the record, ummm I had nothing to do with the harmonious nature of this thread
    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 10/7/2011 @ 5:14 pm

    — Sure you did! In fact, every time you stay on the sidelines . . .

    Icy Texan (9ad7a6)

  323. 330. “I told him the “foolish people” were always counseled to pray for a sign”

    Too bad they weren’t raised to think critically and study history and literature. Being a solid citizen is indeed a requirement for leadership but not the only necessary one.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  324. Dustin–sorry to have been snide and condescending yesterday.

    What I meant is that the death penalty system in this country (not just in Texas)has lots of problems,and no one should be satisfied with it, even if you support the death penalty in the abstract. I don’t want to seem like I’m finding fault with you. But I do think it’s a black mark against a sitting governor, who is involved in the criminal justice system, when he doesn’t recognize those problems. Either he’s insulated himself from the facts, or he’s pandering to the part of the electorate who vigorously support the death penalty.

    Yes, I know the governor of Texas has much more limited powers in individual cases than most other states–I know he can’t just reach over and stop any execution he wants–but he could act to see if the system can be improved. It might be undemocratic, but there are times when doing justly and being “democratic” are two different thing.

    Would I vote for Perry? I’m not sure, but then I’ve seen no GOP candidate, not even Paul whom I have confidence in. But that’s because I think the solutions being proferred by the GOP and the Tea Party are not radical enough. There are systemic problems which can’t be solved by making changes to tax codes or loosening regulations or cutting government debt. No businessperson worth his salt would invest because of those; investment comes when businesspeople think customers and therefore sales are going to increase, and the long term outlook for that is actually very grim. And so far there doesn’t seem to be a candidate who recognizes that.

    jbs (827a72)

  325. JBS

    research what Perry has done, he’s a good man, so is Romney but there is a wide wide raft of differences between them

    Perry will win the nomination, he’s still being attacked no by Cain, by Fox News, by the MSM, and now by the congress

    hasnt had all that much effect.

    That in its self should tell you at least something

    EricPWJohnson (c5f1fc)

  326. And if you disagree with
    Eric your a heartless.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  327. 330. “I told him the “foolish people” were always counseled to pray for a sign”

    Too bad they weren’t raised to think critically and study history and literature. Being a solid citizen is indeed a requirement for leadership but not the only necessary one.

    Comment by gary gulrud — 10/8/2011 @ 3:22 pm

    gary gulrud… it would do you well to read today’s post from Hugh Hewitt:

    “What I –an evangelical Roman Catholic Presbyterian– told my Mormons friends last night is that I deeply regret that they may be obliged to explain to their younger children what is going on if and when they hear themselves referred to as members of a cult. I wrote extensively about this term in my 2007 book A Mormon In The White House? and about the then-looming discussion of Mitt Romney’s LDS faith. The governor gave me extensive interviews on the subject of his faith, as he has many others. I and many others have written extensively on the tradition of religious tolerance in America and on how the political system had evolved to banish at least overt religious bigotry from it. I noted in the 2007 book that leading bigots of the left had launched at least as many attacks on Romney’s faith as had critics of the LDS from the right side of the political spectrum. The most egregious example of religious bigotry came from Slate’s editor Jacob Weisberg. “Objecting to someone because of his religious beliefs is not the same thing as prejudice based on religious heritage, race, or gender,” in a futile attempt to distinguish himself from Bull Connor on other than grounds he doesn’t advocate violence against those he hates.

    What I told the audience last night is that the immense amount of money available to the president, combined with his Chigo-bred political ruthlessness and that of his cadre of political advisors guarantees that if Mitt Romney is the nominee –an increasingly likely possibility– yesterday’s unpleasantness is just the beginning of an avalanche of attacks on their church, and not for theological reasons, but in order to marginalize, isolate and defeat a candidate via appeals to prejudice and fear.

    The inadvertent contribution that Pastor Jeffress may have made yesterday was to launch the cycle of attack and choosing early in the campaign season. Every time an attack in made on Mormons, non-Mormons who value religious liberty will be obliged to say that despite deep theological differences, it is wrong and anti-American to wage political campaigns on appeals to religious bigotry.

    By this morning’s press accounts, Pastor Jeffress was referring to “theological cult,” which seems to me to be an attempt to walk back the incendiary nature of his comments yesterday, and perhaps the public debate will advance to where the word is no longer thrown at Mormons as it is at the Branch Davidians or other isolated fringe groups who depend on fear of physical and emotional violence and coercion to enslave their members. Governor Perry answered with a flat “no” when pressed in Iowa on the question of whether the Mormon Church is a “cult.” Pastor Jeffress also noted that Governor Romney is a “good, moral person” whom he would support over President Obama.

    Lines are being established which will matter a great deal if in fact Mitt Romney is the GOP nominee and, crucially, if Governor Perry is the nominee as well. The defense of private belief against political opportunists is a shared obligation of everyone with religious beliefs that the majority would not accept, and especially those religious beliefs which the Manhattan-Beltway media elite –which is nearly 100% composed of secular absolutists or embarrassed believers– find endlessly amusing and worthy of disparaging treatment…”

    Read it all here: http://www.hughhewitt.com/blog/g/43aff2dd-c629-442c-a19e-f58b00fcfc00

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  328. That’s a good read, Colonel. What must be of great concern to the Perry camp is that Perry gave a speech and almost nobody knows what he said– because everybody’s talking about the pastor’s comments. I’m not sure if Perry’s campaign staff could have prevented the situation or not, but it looks like they’ll need to try to keep closer tabs on who he’ll be sharing the stage with in the future.

    elissa (288b43)

  329. What would Santorum to in regards to jobs?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  330. Milhouse–not sure what recension of the Mishnah you’re reading, but your statement there doesn’t really correspond to what the Mishnah says–which is that Chazal expected every Sanhedrin to do its best to avoid imposing a death penalty.

    I’m using the original text (Makkot 7a); and that’s not really what it says. It says that a Sanhedrin that executes once in seven years is “destructive”, but it doesn’t say why. And R Akiva’s and R Tarfon’s statement that courts should artificially avoid convicting people by raising unreasonable doubts, their attitude is sharply rejected, because it would increase the crime rate.

    So why is a sanhedrin that executes someone more than once in seven years “destructive”? What ought they to do in order to keep the execution rate lower than that? The mishneh doesn’t say. But examining the evidence too closely, and thus acquitting guilty people, is clearly not the answer; doing so must necessarily increase the crime rate, which the mishneh says is an unacceptable result. So the original statement needs a different explanation.

    And that explanation is that they ought to keep the crime rate low enough that a capital crime only happens once in seven years. Moral education should ensure that few people think of committing crimes; and punishment of those lesser crimes that are committed should be severe enough that even the morally weak rarely dare to commit capital crimes. If a sanhedrin has so fallen down on its job that it has fostered a crime wave, such that two capital crimes were committed within its jurisdiction in as little as seven years, then it is destructive and needs to take a good look at itself and what it’s doing wrong.

    So much for the moral attitude of the mishneh you’re quoting. Now how does this apply to Texas? Three differences spring out:

    1. Population. The population of Texas is many times greater than that of a typical Judaean city 2000 years ago. Recall that even Rome’s population at the time was under 1 million; the sort of city in which the mishneh regards one execution per seven years as unavoidable even by the most conscientious sanhedrin probably had a population of less than 50K. Texas has over 25 million people, or about 500 times the population the mishneh is talking about. 175 executions a year over that many people is a far lower rate than the mishneh finds acceptable. Even if we triple our assumed population to 150K, Texas’s execution rate is barely higher than the mishneh’s benchmark.

    2. Demographics. The main reason Texas has the crime rate it does is its demographics, which hardly match those of Judaea 2000 years ago. The mishneh’s legal system is designed for a much more law-abiding people.

    3. Education; the expulsion of God from the public school system, and from all official pronouncements, means that the system over which Perry presides can do very little to inculcate morals in society, particularly in children. This has to lead to less fear of God and thus a higher crime rate.

    Milhouse (644f18)

  331. And that’s not even considering the religious argument–viz. that only God has the right to put an end to life, no matter what the circumstances are.

    But it was God Who said “the earth cannot be forgiven for the blood that was spilled on it, except by the blood of the spiller”. God commanded Noah that “he who spills human blood, his blood shall be spilled by humans”, not by God Himself. We have been charged with doing justice, and the only justice possible for a murder is death.

    Milhouse (644f18)

  332. Dustin–sorry to have been snide and condescending yesterday.

    I think your tone reflected your familiarity with me, and I just didn’t realize who i was talking to. No offense taken at all, and I’m glad you’re raising your points because death is a very serious thing worth critical discussion.

    But I do think it’s a black mark against a sitting governor, who is involved in the criminal justice system, when he doesn’t recognize those problems.

    That’s the risk he took with his answer, which was one of the few answers he’s given at a debate that appeared well calculated. Perry can’t present himself as not responsible for his state’s business any more than the US President can act like various US affairs are not his responsibility even if he’s legally insulated somehow.

    Perry’s trying to come across as a leader, after all.

    He either presents himself as having a heart that is burdened by the grim task of the death penalty, even when justified, or he expresses his confidence in our system getting it right, and shows his pride in how we handle it.

    Either way, some are going to be frustrated. If he acts like Texas has something to be ashamed of, some aren’t going to like it. IF he acts like Texas has nothing to be ashamed of, we get your reaction, which I think is totally in good faith.

    The death penalty is not a ‘good’ result. A good result is the murder never taking place. Dealing with these crimes the way Texas does is a less bad result than most others, in my opinion.

    Would I vote for Perry? I’m not sure, but then I’ve seen no GOP candidate, not even Paul whom I have confidence in. But that’s because I think the solutions being proferred by the GOP and the Tea Party are not radical enough. There are systemic problems which can’t be solved by making changes to tax codes or loosening regulations or cutting government debt.

    I understand. What’s frustrating is that even Perry’s limited suggestions of mere reforms to goodies like social security lead to so much drama. These guys are just politicians, and none of them, including Perry, have the courage to treat this problem like you’re asking it to be treated.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  333. Oh, and those who actually have the courage to ask for massive reforms are not taken seriously and never get on that stage in the first place.

    Like Ron Paul without the antiwar rhetoric… I wouldn’t really have a problem with that guy. And yet he wouldn’t get anywhere.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  334. The real difference between Texas and other states is largely that some other large states have politicians and judges interfere with results that liberals don’t like.

    In other words the difference is not that Texas executes too many people, but that other states execute too few, because liberals have their thumbs on the scale.

    The test of whether this is the case ought to be how many cases people can point to where justice was not done; if the system were as flawed as opponents claim, there ought to be a lot more such cases than there seem to be.

    Milhouse (644f18)

  335. btw, I agree with Eric that Perry is actually a good man and a good leader. While it’s easy to roll our eyes at his moralistic ‘you don’t have a heart’ comment, which was highly insulting, the fact is he actually does do what he thinks is right.

    I want a leader who leads with his head, not his heart, but I also want a leader who has principles to fall back on when he is under the intense pressures of office.

    Let’s look back over the past 30 years and think of all the intensely tough calls that have had to be made. Pressing hard against the Soviets. Being honest about our currency and debt. Ethnic cleansing in east Europe. Staying the course in Iraq (or not going there at all, if that’s your view). Not blasting the Arabian peninsula off the side of the planet. Sticking by Israel as the clear good guys facing most of the world and some monstrous neighbors. The Iranian protests. Honduras’s brush with dictatorship. Georgia being invaded.

    It’s often not enough for the president to be smart, if all he cares about is the polls and his next election. The country consistently is better off with leaders who have a moral compass, than when we’re led by the smartest politicians. Nixon, Carter, Hoover, FDR, and Clinton were our smartest politicians. JFK and Obama were also at least talented at politics. Reagan, Bush, Truman, Einsenhower had that additional component I see in Perry.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  336. but that other states execute too few, because liberals have their thumbs on the scale.

    That is my personal opinion, yes.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  337. Perry has more foreign policy experience, having governed a border state

    Just like Palin. Which was the point she was making when she said you could see Russia from Alaska. Being governor of a border state brought her in regular contact with her counterparts in Russia and Canada, and being governor of a PacRim state brought her in contact with many PacRim governments. It may sound like a joke, but these sort of contacts are the nuts and bolts that lie below grand policy.

    Milhouse (644f18)

  338. I never thought Palin’s foreign policy experience justified all the laughter about it. It was more than Obama, Biden, and Mccain had. Sure, they sat in committees. But Palin made decisions. Even when she wasn’t governor, her business necessarily had foreign policy implications.

    Perry, similarly, was conducting government business with foreign countries since the 1990s, as a decision maker and lobbyist, well before he was governor. Texas does tremendous trade with other countries. More than most countries or any other state in the US, and much of that is agricultural.

    That kind of experience is not quite the same as Obama agreeing to a strike on Osama Bin laden. No one is going to make a movie about beef and rice negotiations (Houston makes my favorite rice, btw). But there’s a lot to it.

    Senators like Obama could often put their foreign policy work on hold, such as Obama’s famous lack of a single committee hearing on Afghanistan (despite his comment suggesting we were air raiding villages). State level bureaucrats and especially governors do not have the luxury of putting their business on hold. They have to attend to it, constantly.

    Some of Perry’s competitors haven’t even been in the Senate for the past several years. They’ve simply been building a monster primary campaign to unleash before us, while the leaders were too busy leading to do that kind of thing.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  339. Yeah but the left salvaged her saying Alaska had no borders with Russia…they beclown themselves[redundant]

    DohBiden (d54602)

  340. It’s a former Russian colony, that’s why it has names like Wrangel, and Sitka and even Wasilla, which is a variation on Vassily, the Russian word for ‘William’. Now we know where this ‘heartless’
    remark leads as policy, but we know that going in,
    Obama was on the Senate subcommittee regarding
    Afghanistan, did he really show any such understand,
    and Biden, was at various times, chairman of the Senate and Judiciary Committees, a terrifying notion
    if you ponder it too deeply,

    ian cormac (0fc95f)

  341. It appears Donald Rumsfeld and Doug Feith are Perry’s foreign policy advisers. This should end well.

    And John Bolton, IIRC. Sounds wonderful to me.

    Milhouse (644f18)

  342. I think Haiku’s point there wasn’t that he has a problem with Rumsfield so much as he thinks Perry will be cast as Bush-like.

    Perhaps I didn’t understand. His list of Romney advisers has a few from a similar POV as Feith, after all.

    I gotta ask, how many of these advisers are constantly explaining the news of the world to Romney every day? It’s very amusing to imagine Romney sitting in one of those offices with a couple of couches, to be briefed on something, only the room has sixty experts in it.

    But I think this was really more of an endorsement thing than an advise thing. It’s a bit reassuring that all these people apparently can tolerate Romney. Rep Flake, whom I met a few times (peon level) and really liked, wouldn’t endorse someone without a good reason.

    They must know something I don’t.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  343. 340. While my interest, as a Gentile, is limited to the Aggadah, I nonetheless find your discussion of the law very interesting and obviously well informed.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  344. Robert Jeffress, the senior pastor of a Baptist megachurch in Dallas, Tex.

    Given that, what do you expect his view of LDS to be? He’s not just a Baptist but a professional Baptist. Politics is not his job and not his world, so he has no reason to censor himself. He doesn’t have to get along with people he considers heretics or pagans, he doesn’t have to please them or cultivate them, in fact it’s pretty much his job not to. And as he said, the view that the LDS is a cult is mainstream, at least among most doctrinaire Protestants. Perry may not personally share that view, but it’s utterly unreasonable to expect him to steer clear of pretty much all serious clergymen of his own faith. I see nothing wrong with accepting the endorsement of someone whose religious views you don’t subscribe to, let alone one from the same religion who might express himself impolitically.

    Milhouse (644f18)

  345. i mean the left said alaska had no borders with russia.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  346. why did Mr. Governor Perry feel he needed to pander to creepy evangelicals again?

    Maybe he’s not pandering. He is one of them. As are over 30% of Americans, I think, so he’d do well to pander to them even if he wasn’t. I know that in his position I’d be giving them all the time I could, trying to win them over, since I’m not one of them.

    Milhouse (644f18)

  347. I don’t understand the view LDS is a cult.

    I’m not trying to bait Mormon bashing, and I’m not trying to call those who think it’s a cult bigots, but basically what are the arguments that it’s a cult?

    In my view a cult is exploitative and uses mind control techniques.

    I realize there’s a more general usage, which is just unorthodox, but why would anyone bother calling Mormons unorthodox? That’s obvious. To a Baptist, Mormons have it wrong and to a Mormon, Baptists have it wrong.

    I think the term suggests something that I just have never noticed in Mormons.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  348. 175 executions a year

    I meant, of course, over seven years. Which is one every two weeks.

    Milhouse (644f18)

  349. why does Crappyfeet feel the need to pander to the bottle again?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  350. I’m not trying to bait Mormon bashing, and I’m not trying to call those who think it’s a cult bigots, but basically what are the arguments that it’s a cult?

    In my view a cult is exploitative and uses mind control techniques.

    That’s a useful definition, which distinguishes cults from religions, but I think it’s clearly not the one Jeffress was using.

    I realize there’s a more general usage, which is just unorthodox, but why would anyone bother calling Mormons unorthodox? That’s obvious. To a Baptist, Mormons have it wrong and to a Mormon, Baptists have it wrong.

    That’s pretty much it, I think. It goes beyond “unorthodox”, though. “Unorthodox” means it’s pretty much the same religion, but they’ve got some detail of doctrine wrong. How many gods there are is far more than a detail of doctrine; it defines the religion. To someone like Jeffress, I can see how a Mormon is about as alien as a Zoroastrian. And how he might call that a “cult”. (Of course from my point of view mainstream Christians have too many gods, so Mormons are the same only more so. I mean, why draw the line at three? But that’s of course not how they see it.)

    Milhouse (644f18)

  351. 330., 357. Prior to accepting the mantle of Prophet, Joseph Smith had a brief career as a diviner locating water. His technique employed two flat stones secured by the first fingers of one hand over his eyes while the other hand held his hat over the first and his face.

    For the translation of the gold plates curated by the angel Moroni, his technique remained the same except the stones were now named Urim and Thummim for the lots worn in the ephod of the priests of Israel.

    The first version of the Book of Mormon was discarded for faults of quality. The existing work is not frozen in time, as the Koran is said to be, and editions will sometimes have slight variations.

    In the first version in my possession, the narrator of the first story, Nephi reports his father Lehi as coming from “the land of Jerusalem”. This term appears nowhere in the ancient literature, Jerusalem being a city from stone age times sat on the portion alloted to Benjamin.

    The Book is largely a regurgitaion or conflation of New Testament passages, replete with anachronisms like “steel” and improbable metaphors like “white as the driven snow”.

    A later work, the “Pearl of Great Price”, contains the “Book of Abraham” Smith purported to have translated from Egyptian papyrii. Facsimile 3. an hieroglyphic script, he annotated as centering on Kolob, dwelling of the gods and its place in a creation myth. The first edition of the whole was published in 1851 roughly contemporaneous with the deciphering of the hieroglyphs by means of the Rosetta Stone.

    Circa 1898, James Breasted, Egyptologist at the U. of Chicago, showed the facsimile to have originated with a temple devoted to Anubis–as the scripts focus–god of the underworld.

    At Nauvoo, IL, site of his death, Smith generated, as was his wont, animosity among the natives. A group of the latter purchase copper plate, coated them with wax, scraped a primitive script of their invention on the plates and etched the inscription with acid onto the plates. They buried the plates at nearby Kinderhook and with fanfare discovered them for request of Smith to translate. He gave them a secular interpretation but one intelligible to those with his third grade education.

    Whether Mormonism is a cult is left to experts in English usage.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  352. ==And as he said, the view that the LDS is a cult is mainstream, at least among most doctrinaire Protestants==

    Would it be too much to ask for you to provide some proof for that rather broad and quite offensive statement? Oh, and while we’re at it, what exactly is a “doctrinaire Protestant?

    elissa (9d991f)

  353. 362. Re: “Mainstream”. I was raised in the Lutheran and Methodist denominations and have been a member of each sort in the past decade, tho having moved twice in the last few am presently unchurched.

    I can say soberly from experience only a small percentage of the clergy know their religion as well as Milhouse and JBS know Judaism.

    Why, in America, does one’s opinion matter far more than knowledge? Cain, as a Baptist minister, doesn’t have a clue what the “Right of Return” entails. To me this indicates a shocking lack of intellectual curiosity regarding politics let alone issues contingent to his religion.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  354. Milhouse,

    Texas is 4th in crime 2nd in population, thus also the 175 executions most of those were not from Perry’s courts system which really isnt his as Judges are elected in Texas

    Here is a typical lefty assessment of the Texxas judicial process

    Its a wonderment that Perry is responsible for a border that isnt his, illegal immigration he cannot deport, and to supervise the judges he cannot appoint or remove.

    He cannot even reverse mistakes in justice in Texas

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  355. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/justice/howshould/

    Sorry – here is the link, replent with interviews of the most lefty of Texas politicians

    I find it interesting that PBS feels strongly that Texans dont have the right to pick their judges

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  356. The mishneh doesn’t say.

    In other words, everything that follows in your comment is your interpretation, and not what the Mishnah says. Me, I’m looking at what the Mishnah says, and it doesn’t say what you think is there.

    As for the death penalty equalling justice–well, show me a case where the execution of the murderer resulted in the resurrection of the victim(s) and I’ll say justice has been done.

    As for the Scripture you quote in 341–that’s not a command to have a legal system that imposes death penalty. That’s a statement of fact, which Hillel paraphrased when he said “Because you [for the others here, he was pointing to a skull found floating in the water] drowned others, you were drowned in your turn”. Or as a certain Nazarene said (if I can quote him in this context), “Those who live by the die by the sword.”

    JBS (1b86f1)

  357. BTW, has anyone considered the possible impact on Cain’s candidacy of the fact that he was at one point VP of a Federal Reserve Bank, and what that might do to his support among the Tea Party once it becomes generally known (given the amount of love and respect the Fed gets nowadays).

    JBS (1b86f1)

  358. milhouse and gulrud
    are they cream or are they scum?
    both rise to the top

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  359. Those who live by the die by the sword

    of course should have been

    Those who live by the sword die by the sword.

    Apologies.

    JBS (1b86f1)

  360. Cain as VP/Chmn of the KC-Fed…
    Since, to a large part, the TEA Party is a creature of “Main Street”, and composed of those involved in Small-Business, his record at the KC-Fed, and what he advocated that it do, would be more important than what happens in the offices of Greenspan/Bernanke, where the real heart-burn of the TEA Party is directed.
    Did Cain sit on the Open Market Cmte as Chairman of the KC-Fed, and how did he vote there?
    Those are relevant questions; and, did his activities at the Fed contradict his positions that he now takes regarding the economy, and if they do, how does he explain the differences?
    These are all questions that an enquiring media would pursue.
    Are they still capable of doing that job, or was that DNA scrubbed from their being during the run-up to ’08?

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (41579f)

  361. Eric you magnificent rovelike bastige.

    😆

    DohBiden (d54602)

  362. 368. Hewitt and Bennet don’t bother to define bigotry, religion, reason or otherwise show that bigotry exists in a particular case with any rigor whatever.

    They simply intend to smear and shame intimidating the target into submission.

    You are indeed, correct, we are shameless.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  363. gulrud’s take on things: “Who cares if the vast majority of Mormons vote conservative? Let’s go ahead and denigrate their religion anyway.”

    Icy Texan (685390)

  364. Never anger God, you might find out that she likes Mormans.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (41579f)

  365. 374. Hardly, this started because wheeler’s cat pointed to the 18% of the Right who will not vote for a Mormon.

    Karl came back with 24% of liberals and 22% of Indies will not likewise.

    Then Dustin lamented such bigotry. In his defense he at least offered a reasoned defense. Most of the rest have only reverse bigotry on offer.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  366. I think it is a destructive argument to engage in, regardless of which side you’re defending.
    We might as well ponder how many angels can stand on the head of a pin, for all of the “good” it will do.
    Each person is entitled to his own religion/faith/belief, and to act on that as long as his actions are not destructive of the Rights of others.
    Some of us don’t like red-heads, but do we go around advocating the shearing-off of all red tresses?
    Get over yourselves people, your beliefs are yours, and mine is mine; I won’t try to impose my beliefs on you and I expect the same courtesy in return.

    I trust my Soul to God, and my Life to John Moses Browning!

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (41579f)

  367. what exactly is a “doctrinaire Protestant?

    At the very least, one who takes “sola scriptura” seriously, and regards such things as transsubstantiation and the veneration of saints as pagan. Anybody who takes such a position, which is fundamental to protestantism, can’t possibly not have a problem with an openly polytheist religion.

    Milhouse (644f18)

  368. Getting along with people of other religions doesn’t mean pretending that their views are OK, it means recognising that people of good will can be wrong on religion, and that we can still make common cause for goals that we both share, such as a decent government here on earth. We can respect each other without having to pretend that our differences aren’t real or important.

    Milhouse (644f18)

  369. Señor Gary es sooo smart! El jefe correctly divines that some of us are intolerant of the haters in our midst.

    Icy Texan (685390)

  370. Awww, icytexan, you smoking the peace-pipe?

    tifosa (e92235)

  371. In other words, everything that follows in your comment is your interpretation, and not what the Mishnah says. Me, I’m looking at what the Mishnah says, and it doesn’t say what you think is there.

    It certainly does not say what you claimed, that “Chazal expected every Sanhedrin to do its best to avoid imposing a death penalty”. It explicitly rejects such avoidance as likely to increase the number of murderers. The plain fact is that it doesn’t give any reason for its statement about one execution in seven years; any reason we impute to it must be a matter of interpretation. I explained why my interpretation makes more sense than yours.

    As for the death penalty equalling justice–well, show me a case where the execution of the murderer resulted in the resurrection of the victim(s) and I’ll say justice has been done.

    That’s not possible, but vengeance is also justice. And scripture explicitly endorses it, as I quoted.

    As for the Scripture you quote in 341–that’s not a command to have a legal system that imposes death penalty.

    Actually I quoted two separate verses, one from Numbers and the other from Genesis. Both verses certainly are exactly that: commands to execute murderers. The one from Genesis is the basis for the Noachide commandment to establish a legal system (see Rashi). Nor are they the only such verses; the Torah is full of explicit commands that various offenders be executed if convicted. You can’t read very far without coming across such a command.

    Milhouse (644f18)

  372. Awww tifosa you smoking Michael Moores feces stained undies?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  373. Personally, I have never had anything against Mormons, tifosa.

    Of course your mileage may — and, in your case, probably does — vary.

    Icy Texan (685390)

  374. Because a criminal justice system that can execute two people a month is certainly screwed up.

    I say it is simply taking out the trash.

    And he also apparently has no qualms about the possibility that at least one of those people was innocent of the crime for which he was executed.

    Collateral damage, just like the innocents who were roasted to death in Dresden and Tokyo during the 1940’s.

    Can a loving God really condemn some 99% of humanity to the fires of hell?

    Yes.

    Michael Ejercito (64388b)

  375. But mind you it is perfectly moral to execute white people.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  376. 236: Comment by Milhouse — 10/7/2011 @ 1:00 pm

    Despite this general attitude, Shimon ben Shatach hanged eighty women in one day. When the crimes have been committed and proven, justice must follow and damn the statistics.

    But this was actually not according to the law. (That two people are not to condemned on the same day by the same court) The Gemorah says that was because of the needs of the day. In other words the only way to get rid of the cult. Sanhedrin 45b

    This was for what is translated as witchcraft, which means they practiced a form of divination – fortune telling/idol worship where they tell people what is right and wrong.

    There is another famous case where there was striong evidence where he let someone go because it was misisng one of the criteria.

    Sammy Finkelman (9ab1e5)

  377. gary gulrud sucks
    this is paid political
    announcement, it is

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  378. Article VI, paragraph 3 of the U.S. Constitution:

    The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  379. “but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

    A protection afforded the citizens from government. Children cannot pray to the god of their choice in school, wear a patriotic shirt in many schools, etc. and you suppose private citizens to be bound by this provision?

    Jeff Flake, TEA Party caucus member has endorsed Romney. You’re telling us religion had nothing to do with that decision?

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  380. go play with your straw men, gulrud. That loud roar you just heard passing over your half empty cranium wasn’t the Blue Angels.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  381. But this was actually not according to the law. (That two people are not to condemned on the same day by the same court) The Gemorah says that was because of the needs of the day. In other words the only way to get rid of the cult. Sanhedrin 45b

    In other words, when there is no doubt that the crimes were committed, we can’t let a concern for statistics keep us from doing justice. Even procedural rules like providing separate trials for each defendant, with a minimum of one day for each, have to give way in an emergency, such as when a conspiracy with eighty participants is discovered, which would mean that if the procedures were followed the last of the trials would be delayed by three whole months, which was seen as an unacceptable dragging out of justice! Imagine their reaction to the typical time it takes, even in Texas, between crime and execution.

    Milhouse (644f18)

  382. Jeff Flake, TEA Party caucus member has endorsed Romney. You’re telling us religion had nothing to do with that decision?

    Yes, I’m telling you that I’m assuming as much. I have too much respect for Flake to jump to the conclusion that he’d endorse someone just because of their shared religion. If he were going to do that he’d’ve endorsed Harry Reid too!

    Milhouse (644f18)

  383. 392. “If he were going to do that he’d’ve endorsed Harry Reid too!”

    Nonsense, he’d have no cover whatever in Reid’s case. Endorsing a DIABLO is evidence he’s a politician at the very least.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  384. Romney is about as much a fan of the tea party as putin is of breasts I think

    Jeff Flake is a seriously confuzzled wiggle waggle

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  385. gulrud, you’re right at the edge of that fine, fine line.

    Icy Texan (685390)

  386. Go ahead — step over. I won’t give you too hard of a time about it.

    Icy Texan (685390)

  387. romney supporters are the ostintolerant c*nts I have ever met.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  388. [Mittflips]

    EricPWJohnson (2a58f7)

  389. 395. http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/156851/mormon-vote-and-evangelical-vote/ramesh-ponnuru

    The bigot whisperers have zero credibility.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  390. Agreed.

    I despise Romney because he is a flip-flopping charlatan.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  391. .

    Four Hundred And Third!

    .

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)

  392. You will be just fine, gulrud, as long as you don’t tell any more lies about Jeff Flake

    Icy Texan (685390)

  393. “The bigot whisperers have zero credibility.”

    gary – The pastor who introduced Perry was not whispering.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  394. 404. Got a clue about the demographics of Flake’s district?

    405. You’re point is? Speak up, bigot.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  395. Rep Jeff Flake endorsed someone he shared no political ideology with so there MIGHT have been other factors…

    Also AZ is pissed at Perry as he didnt join their march over the cliff of discord

    EricPWJohnson (2925ff)

  396. gulrud spews his bigotry all over the web. He’s a Johnny-One-Note.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  397. From the Doctrine and Covenants Smith pronounced the word of god, those who do not accept the doctrine of Telestial Marriage are “damned”.

    In the early 1900’s the then Prophet, under Dept. of Interior pressure, gave the edict that polygamy has no part in LDS religion.

    Jeremiah: Proof that a prophet is false comes when his ‘Word’ proves untrue.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  398. The practice of polygamy stopped on September 25, 1890. takes the writings of gulrud with a grain of salt.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  399. takes take

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  400. Gary

    I wouldn’t go there – one it has no relevance, two – its more than an edict or two, three – tying mormonism to polygamy is like tying Catholics to the inquisition – neither is practiced today and has been officially condemned

    EricPWJohnson (2925ff)

  401. 410,412. Plainly tying LDS to the Canyon North Rim, Weatern UT, Bountiful ID and Texas polygamists was not the point of 409.

    Smith fled NY, PA, OH and MO for bank fraud, proselytization, home wrecking, fraud and was a congenital liar yet the Christianists are the wackos that need proscription because they actually believe their crappy religion. /sarc

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  402. Smith fled NY, PA, OH and MO for bank fraud, proselytization, home wrecking, fraud and was a congenital liar yet the Christianists are the wackos that need proscription because they actually believe their crappy religion. /sarc

    You, sir, are an effing liar.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  403. The Homestead Howler.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  404. 414. There you go again with your strawman arguments, Col.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  405. The Howling Homesteader from St. Cloud, Minn. is a lying liar of a bigot.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  406. Wake up to the Truth Col. From NT book written to the Hebrews, the Temple curtain around the Holy of Holies was rent from top to bottom at His last breath.

    There is no more need for sacrifices, the Aaronic Priesthood is obsolete, the Melchizedek Priesthood completed, there will be no more Prophets ’til the End.

    Those unwilling to accept this as Truth have no part in Jesus.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  407. Check your sources, gulrud. You are a liar, a bigot and your constant vitriol does not serve you well.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  408. um, how did this become religion chat?

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  409. Late at night Gary call
    “Oh lord, lord”, Gary call
    he said, “Father, father it’s for the kids.
    Any and every thing I did.
    Please, please don’t judge me too strong.
    Lord knows I meant no wrong.
    Lord knows I meant no wrong.”
    Then the devil sang
    “Would you like to dance with me, we’re doin’ the cosmic slop.”

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  410. Gary Gulrud’s attempts to inject religion into political debates and stir up hatred are clearly out of line.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  411. Comment by EricPWJohnson — 10/10/2011 @ 4:44 am

    Rep Jeff Flake endorsed someone he shared no political ideology with so there MIGHT have been other factors…
    — Not true that they share “no political ideology”. As for “other factors” . . . we ALL factor in things other than political ideology when selecting a candidate; it’s a human thing.

    Also AZ is pissed at Perry as he didn’t join their march over the cliff of discord
    — So, in addition to misreading Flake’s ideology vis-a-vis Romney, you’re doubling down your idiocy by also mischaracterizing his position on immigration (Hint: it is a lot closer to Perry’s position than you might think). Nice.

    Icy Texan (ea6941)

  412. Got a clue about the demographics of Flake’s district?
    Comment by gary gulrud — 10/10/2011 @ 4:26 am

    — Seeing as how I have lived in Arizona my entire life (excepting the last three years spent in West Texas . . . hmm, perhaps a name-change is in order) AND have followed Jeff Flake’s career from the beginning, Yes I do have a clue.

    Whereas you, the guy what falsely asserted that Flake is a member of the TEA Party caucus, Remains clueless.

    Icy Texan (ea6941)

  413. IT, you don’t have to change your handle, as it is perfectly clear how someone who spent almost a lifetime in AZ would think that he’s freezing in that intemperate area known as West Texas.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic/Obama Sucks! (bdde46)

  414. 425. “Whereas you, the guy what falsely asserted that Flake is a member of the TEA Party caucus, Remains clueless”

    I stand corrected, Flake has not joined the caucus.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  415. um, how did this become religion chat?

    Comment by Aaron Worthing — 10/10/2011 @ 7:34 am

    I keep asking myself that.

    Haiku and I are on the same page. The nation has a lot of pressing matters that are so important I just don’t understand why we’re talking about religion.

    I would support Perry if he were a Mormon, and I would reject Romney if he were sitting next to me every Sunday.

    I suspect Haiku feels the same way (reverse the names.

    There are bigger issues in play, in other words.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  416. Icy

    Romney’s a democrat, Flake is a Republican

    Romney has no Republican platform, he’s a spender and a taxer

    I mean some people have put up a spirited defense of the guy twisting, do the look at me look at the pretty balloons – but the guy was and still is a democrat – we just by law cant kick him out of our caucus

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  417. Well said, Dustin. Romney is not my first choice, and his religion has absolutely nothing to do with it.

    Icy Texan (ea6941)

  418. Gee, Eric. You make Romney sound like Sarah Palin wearing a tie.

    Icy Texan (ea6941)

  419. Stand, sit or squat, gary, your assertion was false. Was it our host himself (I’m trying to remember) that pointed out that you are one of those conservatives for whom pretty much nobody ever meets your standards? I think it was

    Icy Texan (ea6941)

  420. Another short, concise lesson for GaryGulrud:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/279686/taking-robert-jeffress-seriously-david-french

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  421. Drew, since my company just transferred me back to Arizona I’m thinking of changing my handle to just “Icy”. Or maybe I will go back to my old name “Icy Truth” (I see the truth)

    Icy Texan (ea6941)

  422. For Haiku, Milhouse and Icy, my link above from NRO showed that Romney got 94% of the Mormon vote in NH in 2008.

    In NV MSNBC called it “nearly unanimous”, at more than 9 in 10:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22743719/ns/politics-decision_08/t/romney-gets-mormon-vote-nevada-caucuses/

    Flake’s 6th currently has a high percentage of Mormons and is 2/3 Republican or Libertarian.

    If you want to believe Flake is as or more conservative than my Rep. Bachmann that’s your call. If you want to believe Flake is above reproach, I have no interest in your unqualified opinions whatever.

    You’ve put up nothing, nada, zilch.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  423. For Haiku, Milhouse and Icy, my link above from NRO showed that Romney got 94% of the Mormon vote in NH in 2008.

    In NV MSNBC called it “nearly unanimous”, at more than 9 in 10:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22743719/ns/politics-decision_08/t/romney-gets-mormon-vote-nevada-caucuses/

    Flake’s 6th currently has a high percentage of Mormons and is 2/3 Republican or Libertarian.

    If you want to believe Flake is as or more conservative than my Rep. Bachmann that’s your call. If you want to believe Flake is above reproach, I have no interest in your unqualified opinions whatever.

    You’ve put up nothing, nada, zilch.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  424. Thumpers of any and all persuasions are welcome to their peculiar beliefs, but when they denigrate the beliefs of others, or insist on the primacy of their own, they besmirch themselves and their creed.

    ropelight (5f65ab)

  425. 437. Trouble is Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, Marxism,…, all insist that primacy is a core belief.

    Even those without any, viz ropelight.

    gary gulrud (d88477)

  426. “…all insist that primacy is a core belief.”

    That should be understood as a given. Few true believers would voluntarily subscribe to a religion which acknowledged the validity of able competitors.

    And, therein resides the age old conundrum: a myriad of belief systems each claiming primacy over all others and each unable to demonstrate veracity to the satisfaction of the uninitiated.

    Consequently, thumpers are left with only unsupported assumptions, deep insecurities, and empty pronouncements.

    ropelight (5f65ab)


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