Patterico's Pontifications


Progressive nostalgia shovels against the tide of global chaos

Filed under: General — Karl @ 10:12 am

[Posted by Karl]

Michael Kazin is both a professor of history at Georgetown and a co-editor of Dissent; in asking “Whatever Happened to the American Left?”, he lets the second get in the way of the first:

After years of preparation, welfare-state liberalism had finally become a mainstream faith. In 1939, John L. Lewis, the pugnacious labor leader, declared, “The millions of organized workers banded together in the C.I.O. are the main driving force of the progressive movement of workers, farmers, professional and small business people and of all other liberal elements in the community.” With such forces on his side, the politically adept F.D.R. became a great president.

But the meaning of liberalism gradually changed. The quarter century of growth and low unemployment that followed World War II understandably muted appeals for class justice on the left. Liberals focused on rights for minority groups and women more than addressing continuing inequalities of wealth. Meanwhile, conservatives began to build their own movement based on a loathing of “creeping socialism” and a growing perception that the federal government was oblivious or hostile to the interests and values of middle-class whites.

Kazin’s argument has at least two major flaws.  First, being a committed leftist, Kazin mentions that these movements were “backed up by powerful social forces” only in passing, although those forces are as important, if not moreso, than the activists on each side.  Second, while writing “the left should stop mourning its recent past,” being a committed leftist himself, Kazin could not bring himself to look too closely at the era he thinks should inspire today’s left.

Kazin’s piece belongs to an ever-growing genre of progressive punditry that Brink Lindsey would call “Nolstagianomics.”  The NYT’s regular columnists, including Paul Krungman and Frank Rich, beat Kazin to it.  Lindsey’s analysis even predates the Walter Russell Mead diagnosis of the death of “the blue model”:

The blue model rested on the post-Second World War industrial and economic system.  The ‘commanding heights’ of American business were controlled by a small number of monopolistic and oligopolistic firms.  AT&T, for example, was the only serious telephone company in the whole country, and both the services it offered and the prices it could charge were tightly regulated by the government.  The Big Three car-makers had a lock on the car market; in the halcyon days of the blue model there was no foreign competition.  A handful of airlines divided up the routes and the market; airlines could not compete by offering lower prices or by opening new routes without special government permission.  Banks, utilities, insurance companies, trucking companies had their rates and, essentially, their profit levels set by federal regulators.

The stable economic structure allowed a stable division of the pie.  Workers (much more heavily unionized then than now) got steady raises and stable jobs.  The government got a stable flow of tax revenues.  Shareholders got reasonably steady dividends.

There were a lot of problems with the old system.  For one thing, it rested in large part on systematic discrimination against women and minorities.  For another, consumers had very little leverage.  If you didn’t like the way the phone company treated you, you were perfectly free to do without phone service.  If you didn’t like badly made Detroit gas guzzlers that fell apart in a few years, you could get a horse.

The old system slowed innovation; AT&T had no interest in making huge investments in new and untested telecommunications technologies.  Rival companies and upstart firms were kept out of the controlled markets by explicit laws and regulations intended to stabilize the position of the leading companies in the system.

In short, although Kazin paints welfare state liberalism as opposed to monopoly and “big money,” the reality was often quite different, to the detriment of minorities, women and consumers.  However, as the world moved into the 1970s, firms in Europe and Japan had fully rebuilt their ability to compete.  Meanwhile, America continued to dismantle the cartels and the de jure racial and sexual discrimination that helped prop them up, typically on a bipartisan basis. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was supported by a greater percentage of Republicans than Democrats in Congress; Jimmy Carter and Ted Kennedy helped deregulate the transportation sector and the natural gas markets.

Ironically, one of the left’s favorite tropes is that the right wants to “turn back the clock,” when the death of the blue model in the face of economic and social liberalization increasingly causes progressives to pine for the “good old days.”  Unfortunately, their state of denial is an anchor that impedes America from moving forward in the 21st century.  The denialism rampant among the governing and chattering classes remains at a significantly critical mass that the American electorate will largely continue to avoid acknowledging the depths of our structural problems. 

At this juncture of my first draft, I was tempted to lapse back into my usual harangue about entitlement spending and our ticking debt bomb.  It would have been easy to do that, within a context of evaluating the relative merits of  Mitt Romney, Rick Perry and Herman Cain, perhaps with Rep. Paul Ryan as a contrast.  However, in this election cycle, economic growth and unemployment are likely to remain the top issues, so I again turn to Walter Russell Mead:

Since World War Two, we have lived in a bubble.  Governments were always available to backstop the economy.  In a way that was never true before 1945 and may never be true again, governments were the sovereign lords of the economy.  States were big enough, their taxing power was high enough, and national economies were closed enough that in the last analysis governments could be the lenders of last resort and could draw a line under financial panic.

No more.  Financial markets have become so large and so volatile, and the global economy (especially though not only) at the level of finance has become so integrated, that not even continental powers like the US and the EU can control or even guarantee them anymore.

Although Mead saw this as a long-term problem, the current turmoil in the Eurozone suggests the issue may arrive on our doorstep sooner, rather than later.  And yet the global shift out of the post-WWII economic environment remains as neglected in our current politics as our entitlement and debt problems (despite some fairly obvious linkage).  Pundits and commenters had plenty of criticism for Rick Perry’s performance at the most recent GOP debate, but very little criticism for those in the media who could not be bothered to ask about how those who want to be the next president think about the prospect of global economic chaos.  Indeed, there is very little criticism of an establishment media that does not focus on the issue or much question the Obama administration about it, either.


165 Responses to “Progressive nostalgia shovels against the tide of global chaos”

  1. A few points on finance:
    1- The panic in ’08 largely bypassed Canada because Canadian banks never had a “CRA” thrust down their throats, and maintained economically sound risk-analysis on loans to home-buyers. They demanded good income/debt ratios, and substantial down-payments to ensure that the borrower had “skin in the game”.
    2- As much as the Left denigrates the Govt of Chile (post-Allende), they cannot fault the way Chile has overhauled its “Social Security” scheme to keep the country from bankruptcy and its people out of post-work poverty. Every worker in Chile has a private retirement account that provides him with a retirement income beyond the dreams of the creators of our SocSec, and is passed to his heirs in the event of his death.
    It is a true wealth-creation mechanism.
    Due to this, Chile has, probably, the highest Saving Rate in Latin America, and one of the lowest Debt/GDP ratios in the Western-World.
    And any attempt to “privatize” SocSec here is met with catterwauling and demonization – just the usual suspects “pounding the table” when both the facts and law are aligned against them.

    Economic Freedom (Capitalism) is the surest path to a society that maximizes Liberty & Freedom, and Government is the prime destroyer of that path.
    The choice we as a people have to make is whether we will engage in “Trickle down Economics” which has been proven to better the lives of all segments of society; or, will we engage in “Trickle up Poverty” aka Socialism, which has failed, and miserably so for those under it, wherever it has been instituted.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (5ac6ff)

  2. Karl – Another good post. The distorted thinking of liberals regarding economics to the extent they think about it all contradicts their thinking in many other areas. They fervently believe in adaptation and evolution in biology but seem to ignore that the same principles apply to businesses and industries. If you look at the benefits consumers received from the deregulation of industries such as airlines, trucking and communications, there is no question that moving in that direction was the correct decision. Instead, liberals mourn the loss of jobs. It is no coincidence some of the most highly regulated and protected industries were also the most heavily unionized.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  3. Adaptation is for animals and plants, not people, according to the liberal ideology.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  4. Andrew Breitbart is on the CC bandwagon and tells litmus test conservatives to chill out. Andrew nails it, whether Christie runs or not.

    elissa (752602)

  5. Because, plants and animals are better than we are.
    We’re just “slugs” to be pushed hither and yon, at the direction of our betters.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (5ac6ff)

  6. Class Justice. Sounds so much better than Class warfare, doesn’t it.

    TimothyJ (30d193)

  7. More “shovel-ready” stuff from the Left…

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  8. If the “progressive” movement of the 30s included the “workers, farmers, professionals, and small business people” …

    Who were the “unprogressives”??

    shipwreckedcrew (757c1e)

  9. Those hicks with their plows and fields were all pretty much alike–right? The progs count on people not knowing American history and assume they will not be challenged when they pontificate and spew their revisionist history. Indeed, many farmers of the upper Midwest (MN and WI) leaned somewhat progressive. But the farmers of Illinois, Iowa and Indiana? not so much–in fact, basically not at all.

    elissa (752602)

  10. The Fat-Cats on Wall Street and Greedy Corporate-(Jet) Owners (Warren, I’m talking about you and Net-Jet);
    you know, the ones that President Millstone relies upon to fund his campaign!

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (5ac6ff)

  11. So in the lefts mind is gunning down pro-life advocates good?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  12. shipwreckedcrew,

    Check your email. Your account is sending out a lot of spam.

    Patterico (f724ca)

  13. “Who were the “unprogressives”??”

    shipwreckedcrew – The first leap is agreeing with his characterization of progressives. Then by definition anyone not included in that contrived definition is unprogressive.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  14. usually if you change your password it stops the spoofy spoofy spam

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  15. The meaning of words like Freedom and Justice is what this is all about, or rather the changing ideas behind them. Are they applied to individuals, or groups?

    Can Government guarantee that we all have what we want and that we all are equal, or can government only guarantee that we will be treated equally before the law and it is up to us to get what we want?

    Amphipolis (e01538)

  16. “Check your email. Your account is sending out a lot of spam.”

    Serious question, was that a real piece of advice, or was it a clever internet version of “some asshole is signing your name to idiotic letters”?

    Online rhetorical strategies can be ambiguous, somebody oughta write a Strunk and White for the intertubes…

    d. in c. (306f5d)

  17. who could not be bothered to ask

    has there been a single question about climate change fraud in any of the debates yet?

    I can’t remember a single one.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  18. I think in the early debates, because Huntsman insisted on AGW, meantime the peanut gallery is nuttier than a fruitcake:

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  19. that is nutty

    I hate it when cowardly primping pretty-boy codgers like John Warner try and saddle our pathetic little country with their grand visions when like as not they’d be dead dead dead long before having any clue as to the outcomes

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  20. OTOH, there are some signs of sanity out there,

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  21. has there been a single question about climate change fraud in any of the debates yet?

    I can’t remember a single one.

    Comment by happyfeet — 10/1/2011

    No, there hasn’t. But I did read of one that didn’t make the cut during the Google debate. Some assh**e asked if any of the candidates were fond of tasty vegan Thai pancakes.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  22. you’re making me hungry and I been good all day

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  23. “After years of preparation, welfare-state liberalism had finally become a mainstream faith”

    What’s it called?

    The cult of the Virgin Nanny-state?

    Dave Surls (28f866)

  24. Perry got a climate change question in at least one of the debates.

    Karl (37b303)

  25. it must’ve been the one i skipped… they’ve been asking for a lot of my time and honestly these things don’t really do a lot for me

    plus also Brett Baier’s make-up is the stuff of nightmares

    but I would like to hear more about the climate change and also about this fascist “Environmental Protection” Agency

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  26. No what ruined her career was being an useful idiot for the communists.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  27. her being Jane Fonda.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  28. Perry is an jackass.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  29. The topic of this post is primarily economic and it begins with a discussion of “Whatever happened to the American Left?” But the Left’s idea of liberalism has changed in other ways, too. For instance, “Democratic strategist” Cornell Belcher on CNN’s Anderson Cooper condemned Herman Cain as racist and bigoted for saying blacks are brainwashed. At the same time, Belcher conveniently re-wrote history:

    BELCHER: What is the definition of “racism” or “bigotry”? It is in fact putting a blank statement on a whole group of people. And again, Anderson, I guarantee you, if I came on your program and said that all Jewish people were brainwashed, you wouldn’t invite me back on this — on CNN. I would not be back on CNN. I’m sure of that. There’s a double standard here. I think this is a teachable moment.

    COOPER: Don’t people often say, though, well, liberals think this, or — I mean people make vast statements about groups all the time.

    BELCHER: Well — well —

    COOPER: I mean independent voters think this or —

    BELCHER: Well — well, liberals didn’t have a history of Jim Crowe or slavery so it’s different.

    Got that? Democrats aren’t the problem here, so bug off.

    Now let’s take a few minutes to remember Democrat Robert Byrd’s long history of racism. Meanwhile, over thirty major buildings have been named after Byrd and liberals fondly remember him as The Soul of the Senate.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  30. cain is a cheap race-baiting creep-o

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  31. There is a nice book review over at WSJ-Online by Cong Paul Ryan of a Leftist’s (my word) view of current economic conditions:
    The Price of Civilizaton, by Jeffrey Sachs

    Mr. Sachs is a devotee of Rousseau, and scolds us that we have allowed “market values [to] trump social values.”
    Read the whole thing.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (26b465)

  32. Mr.Cain acquitted himself quite well this morning on FoxNewsSunday.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (26b465)

  33. now that he’s ensured that he’s added questions about Perry’s evil evil racism to the usual questions about tardasil and immigrant-coddling he can afford to relax a bit

    that’s what whorish demagogues do

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  34. Another Drew – Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks (32),

    I may write something springboarding off Sachs.

    Karl (37b303)

  35. feets, is that derogatory comment directed at Mr.Cain?
    I realize that you have a habit of making outlandish accusations about the personal morals and habits of some very prominant personalities in our political culture, but some of us would like to know where you draw the line?
    Or, are you capable of doing so?

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (26b465)

  36. cain has shown himself quite happy to partner himself with a lying socialist media to tar his opponents with unsupported charges of racism

    he’s a disgusting race-baiting whore and as such he is perfectly qualified to be the president of the united states

    but that doesn’t mean he should be

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  37. Cain’s doing better than Perry, hf. I’d be pleased as punch if Perry would commit to sending U.S. troops to secure the U.S.-Mexico border. (Maybe he has but I haven’t seen it.) Yet Perry now seems to be willing to send troops into Mexico, if the Mexican government agrees. First, Mexico would never publicly agree so it was stupid of Perry to speculate about this. Second, it was equally stupid to swing so far the other direction in an effort to look tough on his weakest issue, immigration.


    DRJ (a83b8b)

  38. but DRJ it’s definitely part of a pattern with Herman… look at the whole booing the gay soldier thing … contrast the sensible and moderate and fair-minded take of Ann Althouse with the whorish instincts of the demagogic pizza boy

    The meme is false, as explained here. There is a contagious lie and the President — he who often speaks of transcending divisiveness — is enthusiastically spreading it… while — ironically! — posing in the mantle of oneness, E pluribus unum. The crowd goes wild, by the way. Listen to the audio. They find the infected red meat scrumptious!*

    – that’s Ann talking, who is smart and pretty

    what does the pizza douche say? He jumps on board with his dirty socialist media pals and finds a possible maybe-but-not-really hint of vile vile homophobicity and says it was inappropriate for the assembled Rs not to have condemned it on the spot

    Cain says he should have intervened after audience members booed a gay soldier during a recent GOP presidential debate.

    “I happen to think that maybe they were booing the whole ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ repeal more so than booing that soldier. But we didn’t know that,” Cain said, adding that he now feels he should have spoken out.

    “In retrospect, because of the controversy it has created and because of the different interpretations that it could have had … that would have been appropriate,” he said.


    that’s a meat-lover’s supreme dose of craven lapdoggery with all the toppings

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  39. I thought Perry did say he would send troops to the border in a debate, that that was how he felt it was best to secure the border

    me I like architecturally impressive walls – but I’m afraid to support that cause knowing America and the budget America has to work with she’d probably end up building a tacky gulag-looking fence that for sure would never be featured in Architectural Digest

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  40. here’s a picture of the wall they built on the Texas border in the movie monsters for to keep out the mischeivous monsters

    now that is an awesome and cool wall what says hello, amigos! please to apply through official channels

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  41. *mischievous* monsters I mean

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  42. Comment by DRJ — 10/2/2011 @ 11:37 am

    Cain’s doing better than Perry, hf. I’d be pleased as punch if Perry would commit to sending U.S. troops to secure the U.S.-Mexico border. (Maybe he has but I haven’t seen it.) Yet Perry now seems to be willing to send troops into Mexico, if the Mexican government agrees.

    That makes a lot more sense.

    First, Mexico would never publicly agree so it was stupid of Perry to speculate about this.

    They’re not about to do this now. But give things a little time.

    Mexico has been compared to Colombia. What happened in Colombia?

    Here’s a random story:

    Increased U.S. Military Presence in Colombia Could Pose Problems With Neighbors

    By Simon Romero July 22, 2009

    “The United States has been negotiating the increase of military operations in Colombia in recent weeks, faced with Ecuador’s decision to end a decade-long agreement allowing E-3 AWACs and P-3 Orion surveillance planes to operate from the Manta Air Base on Ecuador’s Pacific Coast.

    While American antidrug surveillance flights would sharply increase in Colombia, the world’s top producer of cocaine, the agreement would not allow American personnel to take part in combat operations in the country, which is mired in a four-decade war against guerrillas. A limit of 800 American military personnel and 600 American military contractors would also remain in place, officials involved in the talks said.”

    Sammy Finkelman (9ab1e5)

  43. happyfeet,

    Here’s Perry’s most recent statement on border security. While he doesn’t specifically say he’s going to put U.S. troops on the border, it’s obvious he would since he’s already put Texas forces on the border. But I’d still like for him to put it in writing.

    I agree with you that Perry does the right things but we have to admit he’s having trouble explaining why he does them. The good news is he can improve his debate and public-speaking skills — those can probably be improved in a relatively short period of time. The better news is he doesn’t have to flip-flop on issues to make himself palatable to most conservatives.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  44. Well he should have supported SB1070.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  45. I don’t think it will ever publicly happen, Sammy, no matter how bad things get — although I agree Mexico might privately agree to let U.S. “advisers” come in and probably already has. Letting us fly drones over Mexico has pretty much confirmed that.

    But publicly agreeing to let U.S. troops into Mexico is, in my opinion, very unlikely. It’s like our tenuous relationship with Pakistan … only worse, because of our proximity and history.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  46. DohBiden,

    It sounds like you’re a state’s rights guy, except when you’re not. Right?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  47. he’s mostly in trouble cause of the college kids – but unlike the disgusting insinuations made by Santorum, the vast majority of the kids aren’t at the University of Texas – they’re in community colleges … here are stats from 2009

    During the 2009 fall semester, 8,406 such students were enrolled at community and technical schools and 3,725 at public universities. Seven were enrolled at health-related institutes.

    and that “public universities” is misleading … less than a thousand kids were at the flagship universities

    University of Texas-Austin, 569

    Texas A&M University, 304

    … when they could have been out on the street engaging in violent crimes and selling drugs and also raping stuff

    it’s a crying shame

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  48. link

    lots more stats here

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  49. Col Haiku

    [Romney’s Taxes]

    But just a few months after Mr. Romney took office in 2003, what he delivered seemed anything but friendly to the C.E.O. crowd: a bill to financial firms for what they saw as $110 million in new corporate taxes — and a promise of more to come.

    For the next three years, the Romney administration relentlessly scoured the tax code for more loopholes, extracting hundreds of millions of corporate dollars to help close budget gaps in a state with a struggling economy. It was only after Mr. Romney was gearing up in 2005 for a possible White House bid that he backed away from some of his most assertive tax enforcement proposals amid intensifying complaints from local companies and conservative antitax groups in Washington.

    EricPWJohnson (5b6769)

  50. Flippty floppity look who’s getting vetted now

    bout time

    EricPWJohnson (5b6769)

  51. Today Mr. Romney rarely, if ever, discusses on the campaign trail how he closed the Massachusetts tax loopholes. There is no proud description of them in his two books, even though many lawmakers in the state consider them a rare show of political courage.

    “I was surprised that he did what I thought was the right thing to do,”said Michael W. Morrissey, a Democratic state senator during the Romney years and now a district attorney in the state.

    EricPWJohnson (5b6769)

  52. romney’s secret tax shame

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  53. Go sell crazy elsewhere, PeeWee Johnson.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  54. I’m all for states rights you braindead strumpet.

    Romney has a flip-floppping problem.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  55. doh biden, you’ll soon
    taste the inner recesses
    of colon for that

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  56. Comment by DohBiden — 10/2/2011 @ 12:14 pm:

    Well he should have supported SB1070.

    I must be braindead because you’re going to have to explain this to me. I thought you were saying Perry should have supported SB1070 but then you added this:

    Romney has a flip-floppping problem.

    Were you originally saying that Romney should have supported Arizona’s immigration law SB 1070? And whether you were talking about Perry or Romney, how can you support state’s rights but still insist every state adopt Arizona’s laws?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  57. Comment by happyfeet — 10/2/2011 @ 11:19 am

    feets, you’ve gone beyond the pale.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (26b465)

  58. Comment by DohBiden — 10/2/2011 @ 12:14 pm

    Gov.Perry stated, quite publicly, that he didn’t think SB1070 was useful for the situation faced by Texans.
    In other words, IMO, he said that he neither supports, nor denounces SB1070, that it was an AZ issue, and that it did not apply, or would be helpful, to the situation presented by the presence of illegals in Texas.
    BTW, did anyone ask him what his opinion was of the measure in AL? Or, any of the other dozen(?) states that have similar measures to SB1070?

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (26b465)

  59. I’m all for states rights you braindead strumpet …

    Comment by DohBiden — 10/2/2011 @ 1:48 pm

    That is ridiculous, and completely uncalled for.

    JD (318f81)

  60. ♫Love, soft as an easy~~chair. ♫Love, fresh as the mooooorning air…”♫ Jon. Huntsman.

    tifosa (2b1c88)

  61. Seek help.

    JD (318f81)

  62. Mr. Drew I went beyond the pale many many moons ago

    it’s a thing I do

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  63. Didn’t tifosa have a one night stand with Huntsman?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  64. In other words Palin was called out on her amnesty stance.

    But perry and romney won’t be.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  65. Comment by happyfeet — 10/2/2011 @ 3:03 pm

    Well, you have joined epwj on the credibility chart.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (26b465)

  66. Happyfeet is hurt and bitter.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  67. tifosa… lyrics
    from top Dim strategists have
    no place at Pat’s site

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  68. AD & Karl,

    Beldar has a post on Ryan’s response to Sachs’ article.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  69. Look Palin was ripped to shreds rightly so for her interview with univision.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  70. Seeing as the Alaskan National Guard, actually sent
    a detachment down to the border, and she has strongly supported Jan Brewer on SB 1070, when others decided to ignore the administration’s attack
    on Arizona, it’s very doubtful that interview represents her true feelinfs.

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  71. She was still ripped to shreds for it and rightly so I might add.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  72. ….aaand Herman Cain wins the teaCON poll #GoHerb #GoHerb ╭( ツ)╯

    tifosa (2b1c88)

  73. Mr. Drew your race-baiting pizza boy needs to apologize to Mr. Governor Perry for speaking before he had a command of the facts I think

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  74. DRJ (69),

    Thx. My interest is more in the Sachs content as the tip of a large iceberg.

    Karl (37b303)

  75. Sachs tries to assert the superiority of Rousseau over Adam Smith, but I think that controversy was settled quite some time ago, and that resolution is re-enforced by looking at the policies and results from The Lightworker.
    They keep trying to change the facts, always arguing that the attempt were too half-hearted, and were overseen by the wrong people, and we needed to do …. ; but the reality is that Capitalism works, and Socialism doesn’t, and they just can’t bring themselves to accept that reality.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (26b465)

  76. There is something of the pathetic response, even among the most Stalwart, Gov. McDonnell on MTP, did not effectively refute the premise that our current
    circumstance is due to the failed policies, stimulus, Obamacare, Dodd/Frank, which has wreaked
    havoc on our economy. Cain hasn’t made the point
    that the national health care zombie, believed interred in 1994, has come back .Slouching toward

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  77. ian, like baseball in April, the season is a long stretch ahead.

    Some days you win, some days you lose, some days – it rains!”

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (26b465)

  78. I suppose so, Another Drew, but I’m reminded they are remarkably on message, no matter how stupid and counterproductive it si, whereas most on our side are not,

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  79. our side is on message about tardasils and itinerant mexican people and 80’s n-word rocks

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  80. Sounds interesting, plus you’re very good at spotting icebergs that many of us miss.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  81. I think we’re on message. ABO.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  82. This is the time to find out what the message should be, and is.

    Even The Lightworker has been having trouble figuring out where he left his message…
    (TOTUS keeps going on “walk about”).

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (26b465)

  83. we could definitely be on message more better

    if we were all on the ABO tip we wouldn’t – some of us – be trying to impute that the frontrunner-not-named-Romney is a filthy racist

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  84. Why did Romney raise business taxes in Mass

    Romney’s case to S&P is a far cry from the anti-tax absolutism of the Republican Party he hopes to lead. Indeed, it bears a far closer resemblance to the right-of-center grand compromise rejected by House Republicans this year — dismissed because it would include new taxes and end tax breaks President Barack Obama described as “loopholes” — or the more modest compromise that passed, than to the Cut, Cap, and Balance plan Romney “applauded.”

    Like most of his fellow Republican candidates, Mitt Romney opposed the debt-limit deal hashed out by Congress last week because he believed it would pave the way for tax increases, the same kind of tax increases he appears to have touted as governor

    EricPWJohnson (6c7ba0)

  85. Happyfeet accusing other of race-baiting is the pot calling the kettle black.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  86. Today, President Obama publicly called out the entire Republican Presidential field which he said should have immediately repudiated a few audience members who may have booed a gay soldier when he asked a question during the last debate.

    Obama used as an example the way he immediately and forcefully chastised Jimmy Hoffa Jr. for saying that Republicans should be “taken out” during a Labor Day event at which the president was also a speaker.

    OK. I made up the whole second sentence. But the first sentence is true. It was on the ABC Weekend News.

    elissa (1af4da)

  87. You really want to ‘die on that hill’ set by Politico, Romney strikes me as very blanc mange,
    although it’s not clear if he’s from the Planet
    Skyron in the galaxy of Andromeda.

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  88. nono Mr. Biden not that is not true I don’t do race at all really… I don’t really see what it has to do with anything particularly the existential problems facing our piteously sad and faily little country and I liked Mr. Cain before he got all demagoguey about our mexican friends going to school and that stupid 80’s rock he’s so obsessed with

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  89. blanc mange!


    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  90. here you go

    blanc mange! superstar!

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  91. When Obama was on his apology world tour he forgot to ask his fellow democrats for their booing the boy scouts:

    EricPWJohnson (6c7ba0)

  92. Flipside angle geometry

    GovernorRomney + Romneycare + deficits = tax increases for Mass

    PresidentRomney + Obamacare + deficits = ??????

    EricPWJohnson (6c7ba0)

  93. Elissa, that is highly frustrating.

    If I am correctly informed, the debate audience almost uniformly told the lone booing guy to shut up, and otherwise expressed disapproval. Obama knows both that the GOP candidates probably couldn’t hear any of this, and if they did, the audience didn’t deserve any condemnation.

    What is Obama asking for? The GOP candidates to bash the audience by assuming the lone booing person represents them all? This is moot. We all know they didn’t hear it.

    You have the perfect riposte. Obama did hear someone say something extremely unpatriotic, and he complimented that guy immediately.

    Obama has always played that aspect of Rules for Radicals that urges the community organizer seek agitation. He wants you to be ticked off.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  94. OK. I made up the whole second sentence. But the first sentence is true. It was on the ABC Weekend News.
    Comment by elissa

    I’m glad you added that, as I was afraid the Body Snatchers had gotten you, too.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  95. Why did Romney raise business taxes in Mass

    Probably because he increased spending three of four years he was in office. Romney isn’t stupid. He’s a liberal in practice, but he’s not stupid. If you want to spend a lot, you need to tax a lot.

    This is more honorable than the alternative dem approach, I suppose. But this tax and spend policy only worked (and barely worked) in the boom years Romney presided over.

    I don’t know what the alternative is (that’s an environment where only liberals could be elected). I see Romney as a very intelligent guy whose record is simply the opposite of my politics as a conservative.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  96. The quiet times between the manic episodes are sweeter than fresh honey covered in sugar wrapped in cotton candy.

    JD (0b8a2b)

  97. Trumka calling Walker ‘Lucifer’ I’m sure that will be denounced in 3, 2. . ..any moment now.

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  98. 97.The quiet times between the manic episodes are sweeter than fresh honey covered in sugar wrapped in cotton candy

    Its been awhile JD, glad you’re back :)

    At Least you are consistent defending corporate tax increases I must give you that…


    EricPWJohnson (6c7ba0)

  99. Upon entering office, Romney faced a $3 billion deficit. Facing an immediate fiscal shortfall, the governor asked the state legislature for emergency powers to make “9C” cuts to the fiscal year 2003 budget. Romney cut spending and restructured state government.[9] Romney, in concert with the legislature, created new fees, doubled fees for court filings, professional regulations, marriage licenses, and firearm licenses, and increased fees for many state licenses and services. In all 33 new fees were created, and 57 fees were increased, some that had not been adjusted in over a decade. Some of these fees included were service fees, such as charging businesses more to put up signs.

    Romney also implemented a “New Market Tax Credit”[13] and extended the “Investment Tax Credit” during 2003.[14]

    A windfall in capital gains tax revenue caused by a previously enacted capital gains tax increase reduced the deficit by $1.3 billion. Romney approved $128 million in tax changes such as sales tax from purchases on the Internet[15] and raised another $181 million in additional business taxes in the next two years; businesses called these changes tax increases, but Romney defended them as the elimination of “loopholes”.[3][16][17] Over his full term, over $300 million of such loopholes were closed.;_ylu=X3oDMTByamR1NnFoBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNgRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkAw–/SIG=12cujama5/EXP=1317631868/**http%3a//

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  100. sounds like Romney likes to raise taxes to pay for his mandatory dirty socialist proto-obamacare health care schemes

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  101. This kind of headline is not good. Not good at all. Do clueless people not realize that we live in the age of the internets? Do people assuming leadership roles really not understand that their “iffy” actions –once they become public– can taint the whole group’s image? Doesn’t this secret stuff always come out at the most inconvenient times? Dumb dumb dumb.

    elissa (1af4da)

  102. Why did Herman Cain go along with the false story about Perry?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  103. What is Obama asking for? The GOP candidates to bash the audience by assuming the lone booing person represents them all? This is moot. We all know they didn’t hear it.

    Obviously, Dustin, they should have taken this individual out to the parking lot and shot him.
    Absent that, they could supply his name and location to the CIA who could Predator/Hellfire him.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (26b465)

  104. Is there anything that you will NOT lie about, epwj?

    JD (cae88c)

  105. JD

    people wonder is there any tax increase you will not defend?

    Is there?

    EricPWJohnson (6c7ba0)

  106. Col Haiku

    inheriting deficits can be cured by cutting spending – ask JD – no wait – JD supports raising taxes….

    EricPWJohnson (6c7ba0)

  107. I guess, JD, the answer is No!, there is nothing I will not lie about.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (26b465)

  108. Col Haiku

    Romney raised corporate taxes which cost jobs

    that was in a good economy – what would he do now?

    And if he inherited a big deficit why on gods green earth did he think the state could afford a mandated health care european entitlement?

    EricPWJohnson (6c7ba0)

  109. EPWJ – Perry has not exactly been a piker on government spending during his tenure. Looking at a chart put out by, not sure who those folks are, from 2003-2006, Texas spending climbed from $56.4 billion to $69.5 billion, a rate well in excess of population growth and inflation. A lot of pot/kettle crap going on as usual.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  110. Epwj – why are you such an aggressive liar? Srsly, why? Are you so insecure with your positions that you feel compelled to lie about other’s positions?

    JD (17012e)

  111. AD

    JD is not a serious person he likes to call names and lie about what people say so he thinks he has an in – thats all he’s got and all he will ever be – no opinion – just bomb throwing

    He’s fun to watch

    EricPWJohnson (6c7ba0)

  112. JD

    Why are you such an aggressive liar JD Why? Is this all you have?

    oh thats right – it is

    JD defends tax increases – right?

    EricPWJohnson (6c7ba0)

  113. Mr. Johnson that’s just rude what you just said

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  114. So JD again proves he lies – big shock!

    Quote Romney stats he comes unglued – too funny

    EricPWJohnson (6c7ba0)

  115. happy

    Jd been’s lying for months and he knows it – its just a facty

    oh thats right he has sharp edges awww

    EricPWJohnson (6c7ba0)

  116. I will go back to ignoring him – let him rant on…

    EricPWJohnson (6c7ba0)

  117. Take your meds, moron. You asserted something, that you can never back up, because it is a lie. I do not support what you claim I do. Pointing out that you are a manic lying douchebag is not equal to supporting tax increases. Not on any planet.

    JD (17012e)

  118. Mr. Johnson I think you know in your heart that Mr. JD is an honest commenter… I think you might be speaking more out of anger or some other emotion for example frustration or hurt

    or you might just be mad cause of sometimes people call you dishonest and you’ve decided to give them a taste of their own medicine

    I have to bring in the turtles now

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  119. “Romney raised corporate taxes which cost jobs”

    EPWJ – What corporate taxes did he raise and how many jobs did it cost? I read that NY Times article and found it amusing they could not find a Republican to criticize Romney’s performance.

    Look at the revenue base of Massachusetts. It is completely different from that of Texas. Where did Perry come up with money to double government spending in a decade? How would they do it in Massachusetts?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  120. They had Patrick vs. McDonnell, on ‘Meet the Depressed’ the definition of ‘epic fail’

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  121. I may write something springboarding off Sachs.

    Comment by Karl

    You could start with his destruction of the Russian’s chance for economic freedom. The worst thing Yeltsin ever did was give Sachs a job.

    Mike K (8f3f19)

  122. I see the nutcase is loose again.

    Oh joy.

    Who’s in charge of Johnson’s meds? And, why aren’t you doing your job?

    Dave Surls (28f866)

  123. I have to bring in the turtles now
    Comment by happyfeet

    Can I use that too?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  124. yes you may Mr. Philly

    and they’re red sliders if anyone asks

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  125. “I see the nutcase is loose again.”

    Dave – Sophomoric sloganeering is always a preferred way to criticize political candidates as opposed to actual reasoned analysis.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  126. Where did Perry come up with money to double government spending in a decade?

    Absolutely false. Once you factor in population growth and inflation, and remove federal funding, Perry is the first governor in Texas history to decrease state spending since WWII.

    This is a big reason why Texas’s credit score has recently gone up. Perry isn’t super flashy about it, but his steady hand has led Texas well. All the Romney fans can say in response is that this is so easy to do. If it’s so easy to do, why is Texas the only large state that’s done it?

    Daleyrocks demands a provable specific link between Romney’s tax hikes and specific jobs lost? Is that what he’s asking? That’s quite stupid.

    Only Romney’s most hard core shills don’t acknowledge that Romney increased taxes. In fact, this represents probably the very first bona fide flip flop on Romney’s part.

    Check out page ten of Romney’s own budget overview.

    And yes, those are tax RATE increases. Corporate tax increases. Being used by Romney as a positive point. Romney’s presentation says they “acted decisively to address the fiscal crisis.”

    Check out page 16. What do you notice? Romney saw spending increase in just about every category.

    So they tax more and spend more, and that’s how to solve a fiscal crisis?

    Now go to the Texas comptroller’s site and see what I already told you. Texas’s agencies are seeing budget cuts. All of them. Small cuts, because we have had many years of conservative government, and do not need drastic cuts. But we need small ones across the board, and that’s been the story here for a long time.

    Later on you see some great points about the unionization of MA’s government, something Romney failed to reform. Perry, on the other hand, has achieved conservative reforms, even if they require constitutional amendments and many years of appealing to the voters. But it’s the rare moment of Romney being conservative, so even if he didn’t actually do anything, I want to mention it.

    As many have noted in the past, the entire country was undergoing a boom in the years Romney was governor. They were able to bring more taxes in, and even though spending went up as well, their credit outlook and rating improved slightly. This has long been a point Romney has used to prove he knows how to reform the federal government, but look at his actual performance. He doesn’t have a clue how to fix the problems we face. He increased spending and taxes, and was lucky enough that the economy took off. That’s like buying a lottery ticket.

    EPWJ has the facts on his side. Without insulting Daley (though he’s sure been insulting me a lot lately) I would say his characterization of Perry’s spending is completely ridiculous.

    But this is what I expect. I noted I didn’t think Romney was a man of character, and was told I am ignorant of what Romney dealt with at the hands of “catholic wine drinkers”. I thought this was a joke at first, but when I asked I was repeatedly told I failed to do research and am ignorant. I am indeed totally ignorant (though I did try to google what the hell that was about).

    I think it’s quite telling that to defend and support Romney, one must twist the truth and often even pretend one isn’t a Romney supporter.

    It was only after Romney was gearing up in 2005 for a possible White House bid that he backed away from some of his most aggressive tax enforcement proposals amid intensifying complaints from local companies and conservative anti-tax groups in Washington.

    On second thought, I wouldn’t admit I supported Romney either. It’s foolish to support people who flip flop just to run for the next office. You see Perry taking a lot of damage because he actually explains why he thinks he was right about something that isn’t popular. That’s not the Romney Way. The Romney Way is to abandon the unpopular principle, no matter how heartfelt. Even if you’ve promised you will never waver, as soon as it’s helpful, flip flop to the most passionate opposite view and just hope people don’t notice.

    This is even better if you lie about your opponent’s record, as Romney and his shills have repeatedly done with Perry’s superior and much harder earned record. Unlike Romney, Perry actually stood for reelection. He’s faced the voters with what he’s done, explained why, and been reelected again and again. Romney didn’t do that. He was too unpopular, and had already flip flopped so was also unelectable.

    Romney can’t beat Obama. His entire character is just too weak for that kind of fight. Perry is not polished, and I think reasonable people can disagree about who is the best candidate to beat Obama, but Romney isn’t the one, in my opinion.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  127. One must ask, if Romney was a decent governor, why hasn’t he had a job in many years? If Perry’s such a terrible governor, why has he rocketed up through the ranks of office, without hailing from a political dynasty, but simply because he was respected as an effective legislator, commissioner, and governor? Has there even been a more successful governor in Texas history? Has there even been a less successful governor in MA history?

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  128. Jaysus, enough with the pom poms and the cheerleading! May the best candidate win the nomination. All the rest is male bovine excrement.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  129. Truly, I mean Weld had a better track record over all, Cellucci and Swift being markedly less impressive,

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  130. “Rocketed”… are you getting paid for this crap!?!?

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  131. “Runnin’ skeered” – Perry 2012

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  132. “Hairy, ‘crazy’ ants invade from Texas to Mississippi…”

    This explains so much…

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  133. Romney loved taxes and fees.

    Apparently Romney’s fans call the government taking money for things a “fee” instead of a “tax” and then freak out of if you say Romney loved tax increases.

    “It’s a shell game,” said Julian Zelizer, professor of history and public affairs at Princeton University. “He can still say he didn’t raise taxes, but fees are taxes by another name. It’s a trick.”

    Perry isn’t slick enough to do that, and he’s too decent a human being to try.

    You want to register a firearm in Romney’s MA? You better pony up the gun tax of $100! Seriously, Romney made it $100. The democrats loved it because it kept law abiding citizens from getting guns.

    From the above link.

    the higher fees have contributed to a dramatic decline in the number of licensed gun owners in Massachusetts.


    “We certainly shouldn’t be paying anything for our Second Amendment right, because it’s a civil right,” said Jim Wallace, executive director of the Gun Owner’s Action League.

    Damn Mitt Romney could never be elected in Texas. And Rick Perry could never be elected in MA.

    Why the fee? Because Mitt Romney is running for president, and he has a cynical calculation so he can plausibly deny the government imposing charges onto the citizen being a tax.

    Another trick was the eliminate ‘loopholes’ in the tax code. Loophole being the thing that kept the tax lower. So a tax hike. Only Romney’s fans say it wasn’t a tax hike, even though the government was imposing a higher charge on some people.

    Just know this: when a Romney fan, or Romney himself, say Romney didn’t need higher taxes, or didn’t increase taxes, you are being lied to. Someone is disrespecting you and thinks you are stupid, and so they are lying to you. They use prime time polish to present convoluted lies about their own record and the record of Romney’s competitor (today it’s Perry, but it could be anybody). Do your own homework on these things.

    Perry is the guy who walked the walk much better, and Romney’s the guy who talks the talk much better. In today’s age, I think we need results and not just Styrofoam columns and slick liars.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  134. Let’s see if Perry can rocket himself into putting a coherent string of three sentences together the next debate without visible sparks from misfiring synapses.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  135. If Perry isn’t calling sensible conservative “heartless” for opposing his giveaway to illegal immigrants, he’s talking about invading Mexico to assist the federales with their fight against the drug cartels.

    He’s a few fries short of a happy meal… he and that damn mudskipper wife of his.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  136. “Dave – Sophomoric sloganeering is always a preferred way to criticize political candidates…”

    I like mindless lefty-style chants, myself:

    “Fee fi fi fum, Romney is a RINO bum!”

    Made that up all by me self.

    Man, I’d be an awesome lefty protestor type.

    Dave Surls (28f866)

  137. BTW, I haven’t read most of EPWJ’s comments, so if he did pass something dishonest, my apologies.

    I’m simply noting that Romney’s agenda indeed relied on corporate tax increases. That’s just a fact. I linked it above, and Romney was the man who presented that. He called a massive corporate tax increase combined with nearly across the board spending hikes a ‘decisive way to handle the fiscal crisis’.

    Three out of four years of spending hikes, I might add.

    Romney seems like a very smart man. He’s actually just plain likeable and presidential on that stage, and he’s doing such a good job articulating what Obama’s done wrong. My fear is that he will move to the left. His heart is liberal. He was very liberal for nearly forty years, and changed just because he was running for the GOP nomination in 2008.

    We have a few better choices. Romney will, no doubt, do wonders for the GOP when we select a different nominee. He did in 2008, and it was more than small help. So I wish I could resist the urge to point out I think his flip flops are shameless and lack character. But I really think he’s a much harder sell in a general election.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  138. If Perry isn’t calling sensible conservative “heartless” for opposing his giveaway to illegal immigrants, he’s talking about invading Mexico to assist the federales with their fight against the drug cartels.

    He’s a few fries short of a happy meal… he and that damn mudskipper wife of his.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 10/2/2011 @ 8:35 pm

    Let’s leave the fam out of it. And it’s not a giveaway to give someone what they paid taxes for. This is the fundamental difference between California’s in state for children of illegals, and Texas’s. I still think Perry and most Texans are mistaken on this, but it’s not nearly the same kind of steal from A and give to B problem you’re making it sound like.

    I agree Perry’s ‘don’t have a heart’ comment was stupid. But I think we have no choice but to be aggressive on the border. Drug war or not.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  139. He’s for rewarding illegal immigration with giveaways, he wants to invade Mexico and he’s marked his hunting camp with a racist marker…


    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  140. He’s quite a character.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  141. he’s marked his hunting camp with a racist marker…

    I must have missed something. I had a home improvement weekend, free of the news.

    He’s quite a character.

    Anybody can look weird if you try hard enough to make them look that way. I hate the bigotry Romney would be headed for if he were the nominee, or if Cain were. Or if Christie actually runs too. I have no idea how nasty they will be.

    Perry’s a human being. Dems burned his (TX’s) house down and then condemned him for not living in its smoldering husk. He shot a coyote. I’m not familiar with this racism charge, but he’s clearly no hater of hispanics.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  142. more concerned about
    eating cat food in old age
    than stupid camp sign

    elissa (1af4da)

  143. more concerned about
    repealing Obamacare
    than Mormonism

    elissa (1af4da)

  144. more concerned about
    individual freedoms
    than candidate’s weight

    elissa (1af4da)

  145. more concerned about
    removing regulations
    than southern accent

    elissa (1af4da)

  146. more concerned about
    getting new occupant in
    White House above all

    elissa (1af4da)

  147. more concerned about
    getting new occupant in
    White House above all

    Comment by elissa

    Amen. That’s why I respect Haiku’s support for someone he thinks is more electable. He isn’t pretending Perry doubled Texas’s spending when we actually just grew as a state while decreasing our per capita spending. I think it’s pretty simple. Perry’s got a great conservative record, and Romney’s got a great set of skills as a politician.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  148. “Perry’s a human being.”

    That’s a plus. It’s not like we want a space alien as president.

    Unless, it’s somebody like Yoda.

    Dave Surls (28f866)

  149. Yoda was wise. And kind. He seemed to respect people and honor tradition. He was not racist either, I don’t think. I would vote for Yoda.

    elissa (1af4da)

  150. thanks, feets

    Maybe I’ll get a sign that says, “Beware of Snapping Turtles” to put in the window. that would make a potential burglar think twice-about something, anyway

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  151. Philly, I think I might tend more toward a “Beware of Crocodiles” sign just to be on the safe side.

    elissa (1af4da)

  152. “Yoda was wise. And kind. He seemed to respect people and honor tradition. He was not racist either…”

    And, he could wield a light saber with the best of them, even though he was about a thousand years old. The guy we have now can’t even throw a baseball fer chrissake.

    Yoda would’ve been an awesome prez, except for that stupid natural born citizen rule.

    Dave Surls (28f866)

  153. I’m John Kerry but only better and with more sexy hair-Romney 2012

    DohBiden (d54602)

  154. I just saw the N-wordhead article, and clearly Haiku was joking about liberal hysteria and I reacted without a sense of humor.


    Dustin (b2fb78)

  155. Dustin,

    I didnt pass anything dishonest just JD being JD, just Romney links about how he raised taxes

    EricPWJohnson (6c7ba0)

  156. “Absolutely false. Once you factor in population growth and inflation, and remove federal funding, Perry is the first governor in Texas history to decrease state spending since WWII.”

    Dustin – Don’t know about removing the federal funding, but the link I provided above shows Texas all funds spending after adjusting for inflation and population growth tripled between 1990 and 2010, and doubled between 2000 and 2010. It exceeds inflation and population growth between 1990 and 2010 by 2.5x.

    If you have a link showing the unadjusted spending and then the adjusted spending going down, I would like to see it. I would also like to see the Massachusetts numbers you are looking at, because their numbers are anything but straightforward, given that they can consider amounts on budget and off budget seemingly by whim. Let’s make sure we are comparing apples to apples, something EPWJ is not known for.

    I asked for a link about the jobs loss because EPWJ stuttered out his automatic “taxes go up jobs get lost line” even though his New York Times link said nobody could put any handle any jobs losses. Just more EPWJ rote silliness.

    “EPWJ has the facts on his side. Without insulting Daley (though he’s sure been insulting me a lot lately) I would say his characterization of Perry’s spending is completely ridiculous.”

    I have not been trying to be deliberately insulting since the rabid hatred you displayed in your attacks on Romney’s character. Provide facts to rebut what I am saying, not assertions.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  157. “Check out page 16. What do you notice? Romney saw spending increase in just about every category.”

    Dustin – On page 16 I see large percentage increases for debt service and Medicaid, both not readily controllable by Romney if you think about it for a minute. The K-12 education increase does has elements of controlability.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  158. I didnt pass anything dishonest just JD being JD, just Romney links about how he raised taxes

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 10/2/2011 @ 10:32 pm

    Just saying I didn’t read all your comments. All I saw was you noted Romney is a big fan of raising taxes. This is true, he certainly has that record, and anyone credible Romney’s record knows that this was why conservatives wrote him off in 2008.

    Romney seems to really bring out the anger. I hate to think what will happen if he’s the nominee, as more people loathe Romney than loathe the other contenders.

    It’s not like Romney’s fans won’t line up for Cain or whomever. But a lot of folks won’t vote for a gun grabber or a man who promised never to waver in his support for Roe v Wade. Or, for that matter, a man who wavers on something he solemnly promised never to waver on.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  159. Romney brings out the oh why even bother more than he brings out anger I think. But what a vicious slap in the face to the Tea Party his nomination would be.

    They deserve a better ending to their story I think.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  160. Like I said, blanc mange, now go over to Rightosphere to see what real hate manifests it self
    (actually I’d rather you didn’t)

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

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