Patterico's Pontifications

9/28/2011

Only the true candidate denies his candidacy

Filed under: 2012 Election — Karl @ 10:31 am

[Posted by Karl]

Sometimes, the news is stranger than satire:

New Jersey governor Chris Christie finally broke his silence since rumors of a presidential run returned out of nowhere this weekend, speaking at the Reagan Library in California. Making the core of his speech the virtues of “leadership and compromise,” Christie delivered a speech demanding President Obama accomplish more, because “his failure is our failure, too.” It is not a garden variety gubernatorial speech, but it’s not exactly a campaign speech– striking square in Sarah Palin Iowa territory. His answer to the question? Christie directed everyone to a Politico compilation of him saying “no” repeatedly.

Of course, the establishment media ignored the speech itself and Christie’s answer to The Big Question.  Rather they focused on a later “question,” in which a woman begged him to reconsider running for president, for her children and grandchildren, followed by a standing ovation.  Christie — not wanting to be a jerk — replied that he heard what she said and that it touches him, but it was not a reason for him to run.  This answer, in the minds of the media, is transformed into Christie leaving the door open, despite him telling people to watch a video of him telling the media “No” in every conceivable way, again and again.  Ironically, this is being pushed by “journalists” at the Politico — Ben Smith, Maggie Haberman, and Juana Summers — despite the fact Politico hosts the “No” video to which Christie referred. The WaPo also has its offenders, including Chris Cillizza and of course Jennifer Rubin, who is already writing Christie’s announcement speech, probably in a cubicle plastered with pictures of the governor, clipped from various magazines along with construction paper hearts. To quote Karen Hanretty, “Only in DC could a man say he’d rather kill himself than run for potus and everyone would say, ‘sounds like he left the door open.’ ”

The Christie videos can all be found at the first link in this post, but the Christie story can really be summed up in 32 seconds (language warning):

–Karl

308 Responses to “Only the true candidate denies his candidacy”

  1. First!

    Karl (f07e38)

  2. Christie is running for president. Just not in 2012.

    Why is this difficult for Glenn Beck et al to understand? Some people actually want to have a successful term of office before they run for president, cough cough notobama.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  3. Most excellent analysis, Karl!

    elissa (a68b36)

  4. They are just reminded of Barcky saying he would not run, before doing so. Or when a college coach announces he is not going to another school, which is a sure sign he is.

    JD (68ff46)

  5. Beck is a christiebot.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  6. I can pretty much assure you that Beck is not a Christiebot. Beck is an attentionbot.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  7. “How shall we ….off, Oh Lord?”

    Get DoEd in here immediately for some remedial Sex-Ed.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (3c5177)

  8. Exactly, Dustin. Why can’t we let someone do one job before we start pushing them to run for different one?

    Same goes for Marco Rubio, who I hope will one day run for the presidency (2020, since in 2016, the incumbent Republican will be running for re-election.)

    NJ Mark (ebc589)

  9. Of course, the oh-so-cute-Christie, whose chief claim to fame is the charm of his spit-in-your-face bluntness, could have ended all speculation instantly last night, in the hallowed halls of Reaganland, in front of Mommie herself, by answering question number two with one word: NO.

    Instead, he went with a riff, a rim shot and a plug for Politico. Yucks for bucks, eh, governor.

    No means no. Maybe.

    There’s a bit of Toots Shor and Jersey Shore in ‘ya after all.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  10. Of course, the oh-so-cute-Christie, whose chief claim to fame is the charm of his spit-in-your-face bluntness, could have ended all speculation instantly last night, in the hallowed halls of Reaganland, in front of Mommie herself, by answering question number two with one word: NO.

    Liar.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  11. BTW, when Christie says he stands against corruption, doesn’t deserve to be assassinated, and won’t waste the citizen’s money on corrupt and stupid projects they can’t afford, why does dcsca call that ‘Spitting in my face’?

    Is it because dcsca thinks of himself as a beneficiary of corruption and welfare?

    Probably.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  12. I view this as a sign that Republicans and the conservative media are desperate to beat Obama, so they reach out to whoever seems like the next great winning candidate. We especially see this desperation when one of the leading GOP candidates shows weakness. Had Christie decided to run and taken hits for his stand on climate change, abortion, etc., there would almost certainly have been calls for someone else to run.

    I like a big field so I wouldn’t mind if Christie, Palin, Guiliani, and others decided to join. It’s still a long time until this primary is over and the more competition there is, the more likely the GOP will field a good nominee. But I’m also impressed with the candidates we have now and most of the policies they support. I’m also glad that each candidate has already taken heat on his or her “bad” issues and each seems to have weathered the blowback. There may still be an October (2012) surprise, but one benefit of a competitive primary is that the general election surprises are harder to come by.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  13. “Of course, the oh-so-cute-Christie, whose chief claim to fame is the charm of his spit-in-your-face bluntness”

    Disco Stu – Who is more blunt, Washerwoman-Schultz or Christie?

    Who has actually accomplished something, Washerwoman-Schultz or Christie?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  14. Okay, show of hands …. When you saw DSCSA’s name show up in recent comments, who thought “here comes a fresh batch of idiocy”?

    Raises hand

    JD (318f81)

  15. Disco Stu – Repeat #13 with disgraced lying penis tweeter Anthony Weiner.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  16. Yes, DRJ. What this really is all about is how hellbent a lot of people are to beat Obama.

    Even with good candidates who will probably beat Obama, that’s not good enough for a lot of people.

    Pretty understandable sentiment. Obama has to go.

    Another reason Christie is plagued with idiots pretending he left the door open is that Obama promised not to run, just as clearly as Christie has, and then Obama ran. Obama even explained how stupid it would be to have a president as inexperienced as Obama is. And he’s right. Obama’s been a disaster.

    ABC, of course, had the flip flop pulled. What liberal media?

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  17. Dustin–it is becoming ever more obvious. It’s driving the Donks absolutely crazy that they don’t know who the team R candidate will be. Therefore, their energies and attacks are necessarily spread very very thin (having to vilify Alinsky style anyone who even might run.) It’s rather amusing I think. Too bad their own candidate is so weak and ineffective–else they could be bragging about him and coasting to re-election with no worries. It must really suck to be a Dem these days.

    elissa (a68b36)

  18. Correction to 12: Replace abortion with gun control. I think Christie is pro-life but I’m not sure about his stand on gun control, and that could prove a problem for the conservative base.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  19. Comment by JD — 9/28/2011 @ 11:40 am

    Pretty much unanimous!

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (3c5177)

  20. I searched for primary source examples of Christie’s gun control views and am coming up short. Mark Levin summarizes his views on a lot of issues, but he’s Mark Levin. Unreliable.

    I had understood that Christie supported what the hard left calls ‘common sense gun control’. Basically Romney style laws that define a lot of guns as assault weapons and ban them. but this may not be Christie’s actual position, and I don’t see how Christie actually went out and did anything like that (Romney, on the other hand, actually banned some guns).

    Just curious if Levin’s summary is accurate. I don’t support gun grabbers unless there is no alternative.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  21. Gotta love the idiotas pining over Joe Mcginniss’s book complaining about Palin making money.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  22. Christie has professed to be for “reasonable, common-sense” gun control, pretty much the party line from Brady and the NJ LE establishment.

    “A gun for me, but not for thee!”

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (3c5177)

  23. Christie would have plenty of problems with the GOP base. That’s why the most likely outcome of Christie running would be Perry winning the nomination. I note this only because I think some think I’m a Perry fan. If I was, I’d be fanning the Christie rumor like everyone elese.

    Karl (f07e38)

  24. Gotta love the Mainstream Mafia accusing Palin of being a phony and a fake.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  25. Dustin, for confirmation, I would look for any trace of his Gubernatorial Campaign for what positions he took at that time.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (3c5177)

  26. It appears Levin was right this time.

    Sometimes he is, and sometimes he isn’t.

    If you look at the bottom of the image, a gun control advertisement that I find hysterical was paid for by Christie’s campaign.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  27. I am a Perry fan but I don’t mind fanning the Christie flames because I want the best candidate to win, and competition makes that more likely. Plus, I wouldn’t mind a Perry-Christie ticket. Having said that, my gut tells me most of the people currently running or rumored to be running are positioning themselves to be Romney’s or Perry’s VP.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  28. They actually say that opposing the gun ban is “Guns for Votes”.

    Jeez.

    anyway, maybe Christie realizes he’s unlikely to win, and has a busy enough life being the best governor NJ could possibly hope for.

    Karl, are you a fan of any of the guys currently running? I read you as somewhat agnostic.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  29. Obama in 2004: “Nah, I can’t run for president in 2008″ That’s the “promise?”

    tifosa (f908ae)

  30. Obama in 2004: “Nah, I can’t run for president in 2008″ That’s the “promise?”

    Comment by tifosa — 9/28/2011 @ 12:02 pm

    No. He explained that someone with his experience level is utterly unqualified for the office, and absolutely ruled out running himself.

    Then ABC News had the content removed.

    And then a troll burned a straw man.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  31. Obama’s pledge to take public campaign funding and then reneging on it was the flip-flop that offended me most. His pledge was central to his core belief in government reform, yet he promptly jettisoned it when it helped him personally.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  32. link?

    tifosa (f908ae)

  33. @#18 “This Sharia law business is crap,” Christie said in August. “It’s just crazy. And I’m tired of dealing with the crazies.” Comments like that could alienate the white, Southern voters who make up much of the GOP base – and who have largely been drawn to Perry, a candidate for whom a statement like that would be unthinkable. The question at the heart of a Christie candidacy is whether voters’ positive response to his stylistic strength will overshadow the liabilities that come with the governor’s brand of northeastern, fiscally-focused conservatism, which has included an ackowledgment that “climate change is real” and support for some gun control measures. – source, http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20112283-503544.html

    @#10- Review the video of question #2 and Christie’s response– then apologize, imbecile.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  34. DRJ, that was exactly as bad as you make it sound. Rank hypocrisy on what Obama himself had characterized as an ethical issue.

    Obama also placed a hold on Spakovsky (nominated to the FEC) which was unusual and gave Obama a long period where the FEC was not functional.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  35. @#10- Review the video of question #2 and Christie’s response– then apologize, imbecile.

    Comment by DCSCA — 9/28/2011 @ 12:17 pm

    Apologize for what?

    You claimed Christie could have done x,y,z to end speculation that he’s running. You are a liar. That’s clear enough. I owe you no apology for pointing out that you are habitually unable to have an honest discussion about anything.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  36. @36 – IMBECILE.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  37. BTW. DCSCA, cbs news is not a credible source for much of anything. Editorial comments summarizing the positions of Republicans are completely insufficient.

    We already know that sum have summarized Christie’s positions a certain way. We want something more substantial.

    Check out my comments for a look at how it’s done, son.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  38. LOL at my “sum” typo.

    @36 – IMBECILE.

    Comment by DCSCA — 9/28/2011 @ 12:20 pm

    Allcaps! Wow!

    But you’re wrong. Your assertion that Christie left the door open to running is dishonest. You are a liar. You always do this.

    Your only answer to an actual argument is to call me stupid and cry? That’s not good enough.

    I think you’re pretty insecure about yourself, hence the need to evaluate everyone’s intelligence and your various myths about your background in the CIA or whatever that was.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  39. I love how the Globe calls it a ‘shift’.

    His ethics had a literal pricetag, that’s all.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  40. “He explained that someone with his experience level is utterly unqualified for the office, and absolutely ruled out running himself.” link?

    Only a fool never changes his position when the circumstances are different DRJ.

    tifosa (f908ae)

  41. Democrat Barack Obama’s decision to walk away from more than $84 million in taxpayer money

    And that’s how DRJ’s USA Today link opens up. Obama is selflessly doing without taxpayer money. Maybe he’s being a fiscal conservative!

    The article links public financing to Watergate, quotes a democrat lawyer boasting about how this heralds the end of a terrible system, and qualifies Obama’s now broken promise as “early”.

    There is the tiniest smidge of Mccain commentary on the point.

    It’s interesting to look back at this kind of thing. This is what got Obama elected. The press decided electing a democrat was more important than electing an honest person.

    I thank Tifosa for demanding links and DRJ for exposing Tifosa’s ignorance.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  42. “He explained that someone with his experience level is utterly unqualified for the office, and absolutely ruled out running himself.” link?

    You’re just going to retort as you did to DRJ. That Obama lying proves he’s not a fool.

    And I already supplied a link, knucklehead. Click it.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  43. Only a fool never changes his position when the circumstances are different DRJ.

    Comment by tifosa — 9/28/2011 @ 12:30 pm

    And let me ask: what circumstances were different?

    The ethics weren’t different. The reform wasn’t different. The principles Obama spoke of had not changed.

    Only one thing changed. The guy who condemned politicians raking in a lot of money was in a position to BE the politician raking in a lot of money. Since he could get more without public financing, he did that. The ethical argument was always a lie, then, and he simply wanted whatever brought in the most cash.

    You say keeping his word would make him a fool? You are quite a stupid hack.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  44. Wasn’t aware Tifosa was running for president.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  45. This all very much reminds me of this scene in “Dumb & Dumber”. Imagine Politico and WAPO journalists as Jim Carey’s charachter and it is truly spot on…So you’re saying there’s a chance! – http://tinyurl.com/5uh6bg

    John C (1dcdf4)

  46. You gotta love how the best defense Tifosa has for Obama’s record is to feign as though no one’s ever heard of it, and maybe it didn’t happen.

    Link?

    Is that what Obama’s going to do at the debates when Perry or whoever notes his administration has created zero jobs? Is he going to snort ‘link?’ with a completely dishonest ‘yeah, I know you’re telling the truth but I hate you’ tone and then when it’s inevitably proven just scoff ‘so what, anyway?’

    This is the typical Obama activist. The ones who actually have something interesting to say are the exception. Most of them are pure hacks like Tifosa.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  47. Not sayinhg he didn’t say it, but link?

    tifosa (f908ae)

  48. Tiffy and IMP know all about fools.

    JD (6d8a47)

  49. Not sayinhg he didn’t say it, but link?

    Comment by tifosa — 9/28/2011 @ 12:46 pm

    What specifically are you talking about?

    What specifically are you admitting Obama may have said? That he’s not running for president? That ethical presidential candidates will use the public funding program?

    Who cares? Who are you to demand link after link? Do you not have google? These are very well known stories, and I linked Obama’s flip flop (DRJ linked a worse one FIVE times).

    And when you read the links, you just say ‘who cares?’

    If you don’t care, why are you demanding links? Because you’re a hack with no interest in an actual debate?

    You supply a link. Show me Obama explaining why he won’t run for president.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  50. wait, i have an ‘i hate you’ tone?? I do??

    tifosa (f908ae)

  51. tifosa – When is Hillary announcing her candidacy?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  52. Dustin (28),

    I am agnostic. Merely commented because my comments about Perry’s debate performance not being all that big a deal struck some as Pollyannish and possibly in the tank for Perry. I didn’t gloat about the CNN poll because I think Romney may still rise a bit in the generally negative environment for Perry, including, but not limited to, the debates. Think we’re already starting to see that in the latest polls from FL, OH and PA, though Perry remains competitive in those also.

    Karl (f07e38)

  53. 2016

    tifosa (f908ae)

  54. There’s a little more to that.

    http://www.investigativeproject.org/2506/gov-christie-strange-relationship-with-radical

    Overall, I found the press conference, exceedingly
    fawning, where were the questions about Obamacare
    or given his previous employment, Dodd Frank, never
    mind, climate change, or gun control

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  55. wait, i have an ‘i hate you’ tone?? I do??

    Comment by tifosa — 9/28/2011 @ 12:52 pm

    You’re obnoxious. You link things that aren’t true or don’t say what you claim they do, and some of your links even admit they aren’t neutral. You do so off topic. Then you demand links to things you obviously already know are correct.

    “hahahaha…SaintRonnieRaygun” “Ailes doesn’t like tea+Koch’s don’t like tea+Rove doesn’t like tea=no tea.”

    That’s the kind of comment you’re offering us today.

    You are here to be an obnoxious pest and appear to be mentally disturbed. Yeah, I’d say you are hateful. I guess you want to pose as just a concern troll now? Do you now understand that we remember you from the last thread?

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  56. Dustin – you would have a better chance of teaching a brick wall to speak Mandarin by beating your head against said wall than to get tiffy or IMP to engage in good faith discussion. Point and laugh. DRJ aptly demonstrated that even its requests for links are in bad faith, as she justt shrugged her shoulders and moved on to the next one.

    JD (ae55d7)

  57. I think Romney may still rise a bit in the generally negative environment for Perry, including, but not limited to, the debates.

    Well, I think your argument was that one debate, and really a particular debate, wasn’t going to change the course of the election.

    If Perry bombs all the debates, that’s completely different.

    My hope is that we nominate someone other than Romney who has executive experience.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  58. tifosa,

    I misunderstood your request for a link. I thought you were replying to my comment, but you were apparently asking for a link regarding Obama’s claim that he wouldn’t run for President because he was not prepared.

    Chicago Sun-Times, November 4, 2004:

    “Ridiculing it as “a silly question,” Democrat Barack Obama pledged Wednesday he would resist any overtures to run for president or vice president before the end of his six-year term as a U.S. senator.

    “I was elected yesterday,” Obama said. “I have never set foot in the U.S. Senate. I’ve never worked in Washington. And the notion that somehow I’m immediately going to start running for higher office, it just doesn’t make sense.”

    Obama announced his Presidential campaign on February 10, 2007. He undoubtedly started running for his next job less than 2 years after winning his Senate seat.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  59. JD, I guess I sound like I am earnestly trying to reason with Tifosa, which I am not. I realize it thinks this is hilarious and that under its troll terms, it is winning the thread simply because someone is responding to it, even though the discussion happens to articulate many reason why people should reject Obama (which is winning under my terms).

    Tifosa is so irrelevant that I do not care if its trolling is successful its winning or losing is meaningless to me.

    DCSCA is a liar, and I guess I hurt its feelings. No surprise there. DCSCA is deeply invested in impressing people on the internet, so my noting his dishonesty has to be pretty upsetting.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  60. awww, guess no link…

    tifosa (f908ae)

  61. Tifosa is a fag.

    Comment by DohBiden — 9/28/2011 @ 1:01 pm

    (the line) —> | * <—- (Dohbiden)

    Thanks for that link, DRJ. I love how Obama describes his own behavior as senseless.

    And that applies to Christie as well. How long as Christie been governor? He's doing great there, but he's a noob.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  62. awww, guess no link…

    Comment by tifosa — 9/28/2011 @ 1:03 pm

    You’ve gotten seven links so far.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  63. Video here: Obama — “I am a believer in knowing what you are doing when applying for a job”.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  64. DRJ, I love how a commenter claims that video is fabricated.

    This Obama guy is shameless.

    He’s a fan of “knowing what you’re doing”, which is directly an explanation for why Obama shouldn’t run for president in 2008.

    History will not look kindly on the Obama voter.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  65. “Guns for Votes”; or,
    “I’m the NRA, and I Vote!”

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (3c5177)

  66. “He explained that someone with his experience level is UTTERLY UNQUALIFIED for the office, and ABSOLUTELY RULED OUT RUNNING HIMSELF.”
    Just wondered if that was true…

    tifosa (f908ae)

  67. water under the bridge

    tifosa (f908ae)

  68. tiffy – Why does Hillary want to wait to run against a Republican president in 2016?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  69. Chris Christie about fixing problems……………um didn’t he endorse Maobama care and illegal aliens.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  70. Chrids Christie is a gun grabbing tool……….palin 2012.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  71. Obama takes 2012. That’s why Pence didn’t run.

    tifosa (f908ae)

  72. Tifosa, when someone says they shouldn’t run for president because ‘they are a fan of knowing what you’re doing’ and explain that there is no sense in them running, am I really out of line to remember that years later as noting they said they wouldn’t run because they are utterly unqualified? The man had absolutely no leadership experience, and was completely new to the US Senate.

    That was five years ago he said that. My memory appears to have held up extremely well.

    And when I say he absolutely ruled out running, I think the facts largely back that up too. He notes he would have to start his presidential campaign right when he’s saying he won’t in order to run in 2008. It’s shameless lying. That’s the only explanation.

    Yes, by his terms and by my book, there is no wiggle room for a run in 2008.

    water under the bridge

    Is this a dismissal of the issue you had a hissy fit demanding resolution of?

    Do you only demand links to things that are true?

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  73. Obama takes 2012. That’s why Pence didn’t run.

    Comment by tifosa — 9/28/2011 @ 1:19 pm

    Link?

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  74. Obama will not win you farker.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  75. asked, didn’t “demand” You read too much (hissy fits? tones?) into what I say. Mine was opinion of course. :)

    tifosa (f908ae)

  76. That was a bit over the top, Doh, and rather uncalled for.

    JD (1e48bc)

  77. I bet tifosa’s library has classes on using teh google. It’d be great if she could learn to search and find her own links before asking someone else to provide them. Tifosa is always humiliated when links are provided which clearly show her to be both wrong and uninformed. Why is tifosa such a glutton for public punishment?

    elissa (a68b36)

  78. There was no link provided..none… but no need to angst about it :p

    tifosa (f908ae)

  79. Tifosa really does remind me of a rank and file democrat activist you would find roaming the streets in a democrat hellhole urban center on election day.

    ‘No he didn’t!’ they will say to just about anything Obama actually did. Better yet ‘Boehner stopped him from doing anything throughout his whole presidency!’ Tell them democrats had the house for most of Obama’s presidency and they will demand you prove it. Knowing full well this is asinine.

    I don’t think every commenter here realizes that Tifosa is not fake. There are thousands of these buggers running around doing the lion’s share of the dem grunt work on election day.

    They barely have a mentality to describe.

    And when their boy king loses office, it’s not going to be pretty.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  80. Tiffy has demonstrated, quite clearly, how she epitomizes bad-fairg discussion.

    JD (352bcf)

  81. There was no link provided..none… but no need to angst about it :p

    Comment by tifosa — 9/28/2011 @ 1:30 pm

    False. My point that Obama noted he was not qualified was correct. I did not use the exact words, but Obama specifically noted he would not qualify under his “know what you are doing” standard. Those ARE his words.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  82. Well he’s a troll, certainly, but is that much different from the leading lights of the Journolist,
    Klein, Yglesias, Benen, Drum, yes I lolled myself
    at that phrasing,

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  83. LOL, Ian. Exactly. Tifosa is not all that unusably, actually.

    Because I am a glutton for punishment, I read DRJ’s links. Everyone should read the USA Today one. It’s something to behold how deliberately clueless the democrats are, from top to bottom.

    Lefties who have shame wind up resenting the democrats.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  84. ‘unusably’ should say ‘unusual’. My fingers aren’t working so well today.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  85. Claiming there were no links provided is an objective lie. Not that it matters, as tiffy just shrugged her shoulders and moved on to her next little bit of nonsense.

    JD (ae55d7)

  86. “He explained that someone with his experience level is UTTERLY UNQUALIFIED for the office, and ABSOLUTELY RULED OUT RUNNING HIMSELF.” Nowhere near that. All i asked….

    tifosa (f908ae)

  87. No, I think you were right the first time, freudian typing,

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  88. “He explained that someone with his experience level is UTTERLY UNQUALIFIED for the office, and ABSOLUTELY RULED OUT RUNNING HIMSELF.” Nowhere near that. All i asked….

    Comment by tifosa — 9/28/2011 @ 1:38 pm

    Wrong. I noted which links supported this and repeatedly explained my summary.

    If you want to pose some kind of argument, go ahead. Saying no links were cited is simply a lie.

    You think Obama did not rule out running in that comment? He clearly left no room to run. He noted he would have to start immediately, which means there’s no way he was able to flip flop honestly.

    You think Obama did not explain he was utterly unqualified? He notes he does not meet a standards of “knowing what you are doing”. In what way is this not equivalent to being utterly unqualified?

    Do you speak English?

    You’re wrong, Tifosa. You’re just a stubborn hack worshiping Obama despite the fact he broke his word and explained that he is not qualified to be President.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  89. Dustin – the sky is blue.
    Tiffy – link?
    Tiffy – oh, and I disagree with your claim.
    Dustin – provides link
    Tiffy – just what I thought, no link.
    Dustin – lying POS there is a link there.
    Tiffy – just what I thought, you didn’t prove it. It should something about light refraction, nowhere does it say the sky is blue. APOLOGIZE

    JD (68ff46)

  90. sokay Dustin. #31 “utterly unqualified” and “absolutely ruled out” just wrong, but I 4give ya. :)

    tifosa (f908ae)

  91. swing-&-a-miss JD… again

    tifosa (f908ae)

  92. Tifosa, did I use quotation marks when I said that?

    No.

    Why? Because I remember Obama saying it years ago, and remembered the jist of his argument. He noted he was not qualified and simply couldn’t run, because if he’s not qualified now, and his campaign would have to begin forthwith, he would obviously not be qualified in time to run.

    That’s what he said. Your use of quotation marks now betrays the game. You are aware that Obama said things that fit under my summary, but did not use my paraphrase verbatim.

    So what?

    I’ll tell you what. So you’re a hack.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  93. Do you get paid by degree of idiocy or volume of dishonesty?

    JD (1e48bc)

  94. And like I said, Tifosa is typical. If you’ve never canvassed an area full of democrats running around, you might think this is some kind of bizarre act. If so, she’s acting like an authentic yet kinda disturbed democrat activist.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  95. Have at it, kids. This is where the back and forth idiocy gets so out of hand that it’s a waste of time and of brain cells. Changing our furnace filter seems like a much more productive and intellectually challenging pursuit so that’s what I’ll be doing.

    elissa (a68b36)

  96. Swing& miss again JD.

    If irony contributed to gorebull warming you’d be an enviromental hazard tifosa.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  97. Mea culpa and lo siento, Elissa.

    JD (318f81)

  98. It’s an audition for the keynote speech at the convention. It sounded like a keynote speech. He even referenced Barack Obama’s keynote speech in 2004.

    It looks like maybe he is running for President, but not now, what with his helping out all these local parties. Like Richard Nixon in 1964.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3daeb)

  99. If Cain can keep building momentum and maintaining traction, (and it’s certainly an if), then a set of viable options for a winning strategy begin to appear out of the mist…

    a) Perry/Cain — since Cain is emerging as very strong and determined regarding border security, putting him on the ticket would shore up Perry’s weakness on immigration issues. Letting it be known that in a Perry administration, Cain would effectively have a fiefdom as a firm and uncompromising Border Czar, would satisfy two of the main worries in the coming electoral cycle: Perry’s approach on job creation, and Cain’s approach on border and immigration issues. Also, Perry as an experienced politician knows the actual trench warfare of big-game politics, and Cain as an experienced business executive understands business and economics, which pulls a trump card from Romney’s hand. Cain’s projected integrity and his firmness on border security re-assure the electorate that they won’t be double-crossed on the issue, and his status as a genuine old-stock African-American will insulate him (somewhat) from the predictable charges of racism. Plus he can peel off black voters by making the argument that containing illegal immigration helps black employment prospects all the way across the board.

    Add on a strong foreign policy expert and get Perry to up his game during debate, and this is a very strong combination.

    b) Cain/Perry — same arguments as above, with the exception that in this combination, it’s Perry’s seasoned political skills which act as the guarantor for the accomplished but politically unseasoned Cain. Cain can make the argument that he will supply the vision and the bona fide executive skills, and the political pro Perry will act as guarantor that Cain doesn’t get eaten alive by Beltway vipers. Not quite as strong as Perry/Cain, but it still could work.

    c) Romney/Cain — Romney provides the smarts, the economic background, the seasoned campaign skills, and the fact that he’s already been vetted; Cain supplies the conservative credibility, so the base knows it won’t get hosed once Romney is in. Cain also shores up one of Romney’s image weaknesses, i.e. that he looks like a sort of Ken Doll Whitey Whitenheimer. Probably about as strong as option b) above, maybe a bit less so.

    d) Cain/Romney — meh, doesn’t get you as much as Cain/Perry, because Romney isn’t the professional political animal that Perry is, and that is where Cain needs his flank protected.

    I don’t see Gingrich, Bachmann, or Johnson giving you much as VP, and Christie or Rubio don’t give you that surprising oomph power that I think Cain could generate. Besides, both are better off waiting til they’re more seasoned.

    Perry/Cain with Cain being strong, firm, and very vocal on immigration and border security: get a good foreign policy guy on that team (no idea who, really) and I think you’re in business.

    d. in c. (ca8f57)

  100. D in C, I think Newt could be a very interesting running mate. Imagine a Newt vs Biden debate.

    OK, that’s just entertainment value rather than vote changing. But I think he adds something. I think he likes Perry, and my guess is Perry will be the nominee.

    Cain/Gingrich I also like. I want to say I’d be worried about Cain’s gaffes, but I could say the same for Perry at this point.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  101. _____________________________________________

    Christie has professed to be for “reasonable, common-sense” gun control

    I’ll give him a bit of space on that issue IF — and only IF — he also explicitly connects the issues of guns (which is the inanimate part of the equation) with the nature of those chosen or elected to be on the judiciary. IOW, notice how discussions about the supply of weapons rarely or never includes the importance of NOT having left-leaning judges throughout the judicial system.

    Of course, the typical foolish liberal not only sheds tears about the lack of gun control, but also sheds tears if leftist judges — with their often permissive approach to felons, armed or otherwise — aren’t allowed free reign in courtrooms throughout America.

    But I’m also impressed with the candidates we have now and most of the policies they support

    I can’t figure out some of the neediness expressed by various Republicans in their desire to add another potential candidate to the mix. That suggests they’re either strangely desperate or dissatisfied about the playing field in 2012, or they’re allowing the “Goddamn America” joker in the White House to create more feelings of apprehensiveness in themselves than he deserves or is appropriate.

    Mark (411533)

  102. ______________________________________________

    I think Newt could be a very interesting running mate.

    When people are debating the merits or demerits of almost any Republican campaigning for the nomination (or who will be part of the duo), I feel that — as the saying goes — I don’t have a dog in that fight. I favor whichever person has the best chance of beating the disaster now in the Oval Office.

    However, I don’t care for Gingrich. Of course, if he were on the Republican team in November 2012, I’d obviously still pluck the chad next to “R.” But I still don’t like Gingrich and feel his time came and went over 15 years ago.

    Mark (411533)

  103. Dustin, I think Newt would cream Obama, Biden or virtually any Dem in debate, and I don’t even like the guy. I’m just not sure what Newt brings in terms of electoral votes: he doesn’t deliver a region or a demographic, plus he has the image of being old news (which he is), and also sort of a weirdo.

    I think he’s definitely an interesting creature and his brain should be picked just to hear what sort of things he has to say, but I’m not comfortable with the guy in an executive capacity (he’s Tom Hagen, not Michael Corleone), and I don’t think he gets you any jet propulsion in a crucial make-or-break election. True, he has Washington insider political skills so that would be a plus for Cain, but his skills are from two full decades ago, and his weird intellectual crankiness is a minus.

    d. in c. (ca8f57)

  104. I don’t really like the guy either. I just think he’s a model VP in some ways. He won’t outshine, but he brings a lot of knowledge and skill.

    I favor whichever person has the best chance of beating the disaster now in the Oval Office.

    I understand. Electability is critical. But I think we are too insecure on this point. We just got our asses kicked in 2008 and I think we’re a little raw over it.

    I favor whichever person is conservative and has a good shot at beating Obama. I think the election will be about Obama unless we nominate a trainwreck, and worry that going too far for electability will be counterproductive.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  105. Now that I think about it, the PR problem (or “optics” problem as they now seem to call it) of Perry/Cain is that it might be seen by moderates, RINOs, independents, and wavering Dems as two crackpots in a row: the nutty, ill-spoken Texas cowboy who might turn into Bush III in a heartbeat, and the non-politician business guy who shouldn’t be running for president. Perry’s image problem is probably the greater of the two if Cain is just VP on the ticket, and if he sticks to immigration as his kingdom, Cain should be OK. But the Perry thing is a poser.

    The strength of Romney/Cain is that Romney calms down the moderates and could peel off some Dems, and doesn’t strike those types as stupid or crazy the way that Perry might (whether fairly or unfairly); in that context, if Cain provides the conservative anchor and the virtual guarantee on immigration, then maybe Romney/Cain is the stronger way to go? Thoughts?

    I can’t see Cain pairing with anybody less viable than Perry or Romney. For instance Cain/Bachmann is just a “babes in the woods” ticket, and would be eaten for breakfast.

    d. in c. (ca8f57)

  106. Other than your apparent tolerance for Romney, I think your analysis is very good, D in C.

    I guess I can stomach Romney too, if I must, but I’m not going to think about it.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  107. Dustin, I’m not at all crazy about Romney but I think we’re pretty much looking now at the landscape as it will appear going forward. If Christie and Palin don’t get in, are there any other dark-horse types who aren’t Trump-style crackpots? Can a guy like Thune or Daniels be persuaded to get in? Would that be a good idea? (serious question, don’t know).

    The two huge issues going into this cycle are going to be:

    1. The economy (which splits into two main sub-issues: jobs, and debt/entitlement reform. We could argue that immigration is in fact a third subset of the economic issue.)

    2. Immigration/Border security, which has to do with the negative economic and social impact on jobs and the economy, the downward pressure on wages and standards of living, the ongoing drain on our social services and social safety nets, which after all were intended for Americans and Americans only, and ultimately with our actual sense of identity as a people, and the sense of America as a distinct nation and not just a storage center for surplus foreigners.

    I think both Romney and Perry have defensible arguments about how to approach the first issue, jobs/economy. I think neither of them can be trusted for a second on immigration/border security. If Cain is promoted as the guarantor on the second issue, the guy who will take charge of that brief and won’t sell out the country, then either Perry or Romney can get to work on economic issues in a plausible fashion.

    On the smaller, crankier social issues, I just don’t see things as evolution or gay marriage as the key points in this cycle: they are luxuries. Abortion is entrenched for the moment and should only be addressed peripherally; the only realistic traction the issue gets is with regard to judicial nomination. Gun rights is largely outside the purview of the executive. All of this stuff is small potatoes. If the economy and debt aren’t reformed, and if immigration (even legal immigration) isn’t checked and reversed, then simply put, we will no longer have a nation, and the concept of “the American people” will consist strictly of people who simply happen to be standing on American soil at any given moment.

    As for foreign policy, it’s dependent on the economic issues ultimately. Our real foreign policy should be how to deal aggressively and forcefully and effectively with Asian mercantilism, without its becoming a flashpoint. The War on Terror can be dialed down and set to ‘simmer’ as much as possible. Everything else is just the art of retrenchment and reconsolidation without making it seem like weakness or retreat (which, to a certain extent, it would be a bit of the latter).

    So while I don’t like Romney I’ll trust him on economics, don’t much care about his take on foreign policy and social issues so long as his position isn’t barking insane, and if we can get Cain to be a stalwart watchdog on immigration.

    As to Perry’s image and debating problems, give me six weeks alone with him to do a Professor Henry Higgins on his skills, and you’ve got yourself a president.

    d. in c. (ca8f57)

  108. I cannot stand Romney.

    JD (318f81)

  109. Oops, in laying out the key issues, I of course forgot completely about Obamacare. That of course has got to be repealed, full repeal must be non-negotiable. Of course it’s a subset of both jobs and immigration in its way and can be discussed on both fronts, but the main, plain issue is that it’ll never, ever work.

    I do believe we need to have a serious and thoughtful (and probably long-term) approach to health care reform, that the system as it stands will not be able to function long-run; but Obamacare is such an obviously crooked, incompetent and downright undemocratic process, that its repeal must be the start, not the end, of any serious national discussion.

    d. in c. (ca8f57)

  110. Doesn’t RomneyCare stand in the way of Mitt making a principled objection to BarckyCare?

    JD (318f81)

  111. On the smaller, crankier social issues, I just don’t see things as evolution or gay marriage as the key points in this cycle: they are luxuries.

    Agree.

    Doesn’t RomneyCare stand in the way of Mitt making a principled objection to BarckyCare?

    It ceases to be an issue in play the moment he is nominated. It’s something for him to get past to be nominated, at which point who knows what candidate he will be.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  112. We’re a society where most things have become cheaper, but medical care is constantly advancing, with newer and more awesome solutions.

    That means we have options that are expensive. The only alternative is to not have those constantly emerging options. Then, health care will be cheaper, but not constantly advancing.

    If you don’t want the latest expensive healthcare, that’s cool. Don’t pay for it. I think that’s a reasonable decision, and we should all be free to deal with it with insurance or savings or dealing with the consequences of our decisions.

    There’s nothing unsustainable our health care. In fact, the stuff we’re using today will probably continue to get cheaper. It’s stuff we don’t have today that will emerge as the newer expensive stuff. I want development of breakthrough medical care to be nearly a windfall of profit.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  113. _____________________________________________

    I understand. Electability is critical. But I think we are too insecure on this point.

    I’m not a good judge of who is or isn’t the best Republican candidate because most polls still show the ultra-liberal (and Jeremiah Wright’s pal) currently in the Oval Office ahead by several or a few points. So I can’t figure out all the dummies within the electorate who are looking at various Republicans and — at best — apparently thinking “we favor the devil we know to the one we don’t.”

    George W Bush saw his favorability rating in many polls plummet to a level that — at the very least — should never have gotten so much lower than those for sleazy and/or uber-leftwing Democrats like his predecessor or certainly his successor. Again, that indicates a not-small portion of the American public will give wider latitude to liberals than conservatives, or a variation of what’s evident in perennially screwed-up countries like Mexico, Venezuela or Argentina, or most urban areas (Hello, Detroit!) throughout the US.

    Mark (411533)

  114. d. in c.,

    I like Cain but I think putting him on the ticket as President or VP is too risky. I’d much rather see him run for the Senate or picked for a Romney or Perry Cabinet. I’d love to see Cain put his business and executive experience to good use cleaning up HUD.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  115. DRJ — I can understand that concern. But do you think any of the other plausible VPs (Rubio, for instance) can effectively cover the flank for Romney or Perry the way I’ve identified? Or do you maybe think that flank isn’t as badly exposed as I’m saying it is?

    d. in c. (d55bc9)

  116. Elissa, that’s unfortunate. I think Cain is badly misstating Perry’s views. There is ample room to criticize Perry’s policies, but saying he doesn’t support enforcement of federal law on the border, and doesn’t support securing the border, is simply completely wrong.

    Perry done plenty to further secure the border. It’s over the folks who are already here, which Perry can’t do much to eliminate anyway, that his policies are controversial. And of course it’s Perry’s own terrible rhetoric, which has opened Perry’s vulnerability tremendously in my opinion.

    Perry should focus on saying the feds have failed to secure the border, and doesn’t intend to repeat the mistake, and Texas has to do something with the reality of many illegal kids who either become educated… or some alternative that may not work well.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  117. elissa — I think Cain has to say that or he’s marginalized as a Presidential candidate, and he has to still hope there’s a chance for him to be the nominee. It’s the same thing as Huntsman would never say he’d support Romney, and Bachmann wouldn’t support Cain. Newt is the only one who has said otherwise but I think he realizes he’s not going to be the nominee, so he’s willing to relegate himself to second-tier status.

    d. in c. — I think you and I disagree on Romney’s and Perry’s vulnerabilities. I think Romney needs to shore up his conservative bona fides so adding Cain would help him, but it doesn’t help him as much as someone like Rubio would. Cain’s real strength is his business experience and Romney already has that covered, so Romney needs someone like Rubio, Bachmann, or even Palin more than Cain.

    As for Perry, despite the immigration issue, I think he’s still conservative enough to please the base. What Perry needs is someone to appeal to the moderates and independents, and it helps if that person is also articulate — since that’s not Perry’s strength. That’s why I like Christie. I don’t think Rubio will help Perry near as much as Christie would, unless Florida is very close.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  118. If I could go back in time and just shove a sock in Perry’s mouth before he spoke about heartlessness, I would be in the delorean as we speak.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  119. I agree Dustin. Kind of strange. It’s one thing for Cain to say he disagrees with Perry. It’s another matter completely to say he wouldn’t support him as nominee. What does that mean? If Perry is the R candidate who is Cain going to vote for? Barry?

    elissa (a68b36)

  120. the “what might have been”
    shot in ass by Gomer Pyle
    we hardly knew ya

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  121. though the sands of time
    now run through our clammy hands
    the days of our lives…

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  122. Don’t worry we’d rather give illegal immigrants and their muslim counterparts welfare at the taxpayers dime.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  123. Dustin,

    On balance, I think it may have been a mistake, but I’m still not sure that Perry didn’t say that on purpose. After all, with one word, Perry signaled independents and Hispanics that he’s the compassionate Republican — without using any of Bush’s compassionate conservative lingo.

    Looking conservative enough isn’t going to be Perry’s problem in the general election, despite this immigration flare-up that was bound to happen given Perry’s record. Far better to get the immigration issue on the table now and hope the base’s anger dies down. Some Republicans will never get over it but I have a hard time thinking many of them will stay home and let Obama get re-elected. After all, if many Republicans decide to stay home because of immigration, abortion, gun control, or anything other than the economy and jobs, there isn’t much hope for any GOP nominee.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  124. herm got nine nine nine
    he was never one for smirks
    or guys with no plan

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  125. Dustin and Ian
    gotta be heartbreak hotel
    for the Glimmer Twins

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  126. “Doesn’t RomneyCare stand in the way of Mitt making a principled objection to BarckyCare?”

    JD – No. It’s a state solution versus a federal solution. They larded it up with all sorts of mandatory coverages after it was implemented that made it a lot more expensive. Special interest groups had a field day. I think there are things Romney can point to he would like to have done differently and things that were done after he left power that changed the plan.

    You have to remember Romney was a Republican governor in a blue, blue state. He was elected on a promise to fix fiscal problems without raising taxes, which he did, going from a projected budget deficit of $3 billion year one to a balanced budget each year, I believe and a rainy day fund of $2 billion by the end of his term. Somebody should check my facts, but I also believe he exercised his veto powers, he had a line item veto, more than 800 times, but the Dems also had enough power if they wanted to override his vetoes. Totally different environment than Texas.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  127. _____________________________________________

    I like Cain but I think putting him on the ticket as President or VP is too risky.

    I like to think you’re underestimating the intelligence (or non-leftism) of the American public.

    In a race between Cain and Obama, to me it’s a no-brainer: Cain in a landslide. But there is that peculiar hesitancy in various people about giving a nod to a rightist instead of a leftist, even a “goddamn America” one.

    The reason? Probably related to the reason that the typical college student, when picking and choosing a professor, will favor the easy grader, the guy who hands out far more As and Bs than Cs, Ds or Fs. The professor who believes that being lazy and easy is a sign of kindness (“no pop quizzes, tough tests and long term papers ever in my classroom!”) and thinks that giving low scores on report cards is unfair and inhumane. Leftism: The Easy Grader (ie, dumbed-down, smooth-talking Obama).

    Mark (411533)

  128. Dustin,

    In any event, Perry has apologized.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  129. Mark,

    Without hesitation, I’d vote for Cain over Obama, too. But you and I aren’t the voters that matter.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  130. I sort of wish Perry hadn’t walked his statement back. He felt that way, he’s passionate about it because he, unlike the other candidates has governed an enormous border state and knows the ins and outs of it in a way the other nominees don’t. With that, however, it was smart to smooth ruffled feathers…but will this make the more moderate and independents happy?

    And really, this is the bottom line that every candidate can certainly agree with and what everyone of them should keep hitting on at every opportunity,

    “We wouldn’t be having these conversations today, whether it’s about in-state tuition for illegal immigrants or whether it’s the Arizona law or whether it’s voter-ID which we passed in Texas, or sanctuary cities and the banning of those. … None of those would come up if the federal government had simply done its job through the years to secure our borders,” Perry said.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  131. JD – No. It’s a state solution versus a federal solution.

    I see you read version 2.0 of Romney’s book!

    Just kidding. I realize Romney has made that distinction, and it’s plausible. However, he also has spoken of Romneycare as a model for the rest of the country and then deleted that from his book and denied it when called out.

    Fact is, Romney will be very ineffective on repealing any entitlement, because that takes a spinal column.

    DRJ may very well be right that Perry intentionally pandered to hispanics with his ‘have no heart’ comment, and I don’t begrudge anyone his choice to reject Perry for it. I think Perry remains the best chance for beating Obama, and the most qualified and likely to be successful to boot, but to each his own. That comment was stupid, and Perry will not escape the conclusions of many he is weak on this issue.

    I think Cain misspoke, Elissa. Hopefully. If he’s really saying he wouldn’t support Perry as nominee, that puts him in Murkowski territory with me, and currently I like Cain a lot.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  132. “I sort of wish Perry hadn’t walked his statement back.”

    Dana – I don’t think he needs to hammer his Republican opponents, nor they him, the same way they all need to hammer the Democrats because once the primaries are over they can all hopefully unite behind the winner. The personal acrimony, especially directed by proxy at voters, serves no purpose.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  133. Cain is a drooling idj I think if he’d rather see Miss Mittens Galore in our little White House than Mr. Governor Perry.

    As of today he’s back in the santorum with bachmann and huntsman and the other dweeby risible midgets again as far as I’m concerned.

    I don’t have any patience these days for people what can look at our sad flailing piteous little country drowning in an ocean of debt and… stand on the beach screeching about errant mexicans.

    Grow tf up, Herman.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  134. he’s not running

    Jones (1e484f)

  135. stupid herman harshed my mellow I’m a need a musics

    maria mckee!

    dayummm she gots some pipes no?

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  136. Daley,

    I don’t disagree but it’s refreshing to have someone just say it and put it out there. It may not be politically expedient, but speaking from the gut works for me.

    Again, he comes to this with a uniquely different perspective.

    Happyfeet, I think our state of the economy and the issue of illegal immigrants in our country are not mutually exclusive. Not by a long shot.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  137. “Fact is, Romney will be very ineffective on repealing any entitlement, because that takes a spinal column.”

    Dustin – I see you are reading Version 2.0 of Perry’s book. Romney’s position is that he will repeal ObamaCare day 1. You can choose not to believe him.

    I also noticed you were using Version 1.0 of the EPWJ smear earlier today with respect to both Romney and Huntsman that they both got nowhere on their own. Shame on you. Are you seriously suggesting that George Romney’s Michigan governership helped Mitt win the governorship 30 years later in blue Massachusetts or his American Motors background helped with the huge number of auto workers in Massachusetts? Has anybody come up with those incredible wealth figures for the Romney family yet? How did Huntsman perform with the family company, Dustin? Did it prosper under his stewardship or stagnate?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  138. Bushs wars=wrong

    Obamas wars=Good

    Obama is Bush in regards to the wars lefturds get over it I mean code pinko has.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  139. um no he will not STFU you romneybot.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  140. Dana – Being insulted by my party’s politicians is one of my most favoritest things, evah!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  141. there’s a question of priorities and if our international laughingstock economy is ever to have a hope of returning to anything resembling dynamism we’re gonna need to recognize that were gonna need lots of immigrants to address our decidedly unfavorable demographics

    best not to spend too much energy demonizing the people what are primarily guilty of having the pluck to seek a better life I think

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  142. I was in favor of my mandates before I was against your mandates.

    JD (318f81)

  143. Dana likes being called a nativist.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  144. *we’re* gonna need lots of immigrants to address our decidedly unfavorable demographics I mean

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  145. Seeking a better life mooching off of us.

    Jeesh crappyfeet your dumber than Michael Moores Manboobs.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  146. They can come over legally then.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  147. maria mckee!

    claim to fame was that she is related to late Bryan McLean, feets…

    http://youtu.be/zZAPpMuENqE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMepqPsyIvo&feature=related

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  148. When will god Call for these liberals to repent?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  149. I had no idea they were related! nobody tells me anything

    also I need to google Bryan McLean cause I’m drawing a blank there too

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  150. Dana – Being insulted by my party’s politicians is one of my most favoritest things, evah!

    Comment by daleyrocks

    Fair enough.

    As to your complaint about my comments about Romney and Huntsman, I did note they had been successful. It is simply a fact they did not do this on their own initiative. Huntsman sr is a billionaire. George Romney also worked hard and it is beyond doubt that both Mitt and Jon had a lot of opportunities. They are not self made.

    Are you seriously suggesting that George Romney’s Michigan governership helped Mitt win the governorship 30 years later in blue Massachusetts or his American Motors background helped with the huge number of auto workers in Massachusetts?

    Hell yeah I am.

    EPWJ usually says nonsense. Screw him. And both Mitt and Jon have accomplished some things, no doubt. But of course Mitt and Jon have had a lot of help that folks like Herman Cain and Rick Perry did not have. The story of someone rising on their own steam is more inspiring than the story of someone with enormous resources using those resources wisely (such as Romney’s Bain success).

    I don’t see why you even find this argument offensive. It’s totally fair. It’s certainly better to succeed with daddy’s millions than to fail or do nothing. It’s even better to succeed from humble roots. Just my honest opinion.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  151. Mr. Feets! Don’t burst a vessel and hurt yourself. Maybe pick some nice soooothing musics for all of us. K?

    elissa (a68b36)

  152. I guess some interpret my point as saying there’s something terrible about being born wealthy. I don’t resent that at all. Good for George Romney for doing well, and it’s only right that his kids benefit greatly. And greatly did they benefit.

    If you’re reading more into what I’m saying, don’t. Romney’s obviously not a lazy slouch, but he’s also simply less impressive than someone who makes it to that stage with much less help.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  153. I has a soothing musics for you elissa! brb this is neat

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  154. here… I need the whole cd I’ve heard really really good things about it

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  155. ==but he’s also simply less impressive than someone who makes it to that stage with much less help==

    We just need to steer way clear of apples/ oranges strawmen, I think.

    elissa (a68b36)

  156. Romney made his money at Bain Capital. He didn’t inherit great wealth.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  157. Romney worked his way up through the business world and he has nothing to apologize for. This ain’t Ann Arbor and we ain’t SDS… or are we?

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  158. Romney made his money at Bain Capital. He didn’t inherit great wealth.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 9/28/2011 @ 6:05 pm

    OK. How did Mitt found Bain Capital?

    Hint. Capital. He was able to ask people to give him and his friends tens of millions of dollars. Obviously this is something you’re more able to do if you’re George Romney’s son than if you’re some rancher’s kid.

    Facts are facts.

    I have no problem with this, and I already noted he was successful.

    Rick Perry’s life story is more impressive than that someone whose father was very successful in politics and business cultivated those political and business fund raising connections with great skill. I’ve repeatedly noted Mitt’s abilities in business are well proven. He did well with a position that was much more advantageous than, say, Herman Cain (started out working for the Navy) or Rick Perry.

    Would Mitt be in the position he’s in today, but for his father? I sincerely doubt it. And I think this is so relevant because it’s simply a fact that Mitt Romney does not have any character. Because he never had any character building experiences.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  159. apologies for the typos

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  160. Dustin,

    Overly wealthy, born into the highest priviledged Dilettante’s always know whats best for us humble folk.

    Slick Mitts was on Hannity’s radio show defending Romney care and said the individual mandate is something that the nation needs and said it was Newt’s and Reagans idea…

    Sounds like Obama might be more conservative than the poor little rich kid

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  161. Thank you happyfeet. Mr. Blake’s song has made me very mellow indeed. I would not want that song on my car CD player, though. It would put me in a soothing trance and I might drive off the road into a cornfield or something.

    elissa (a68b36)

  162. Romney worked his way up through the business world and he has nothing to apologize for. This ain’t Ann Arbor and we ain’t SDS… or are we?

    Comment by ColonelHaiku

    You’re burning another straw man. I have, in no way, suggested Romney should apologize.

    You really think these Al Gore Jrs and George W Bushs did not benefit from having incredibly successful politicians and businessmen as parents?

    Sure, Mitt worked Haiku. And he was able to get people to lend him tens of millions of dollars because he had connections. It is EXACTLY the same as how Chelsea Clinton is working her way up.

    Like I said, this is relevant because, for some reason, Mitt Romney has a lack of personal character. He can compellingly explain how he will never waver (his word) from fighting to protect Roe v Wade to explaining how he abhors killing a fetus. He can flip on any and everything. He is utterly unreliable, and his first reaction to a tricky political problem is to change his views. Perry is much more simplistic. He does what he thinks he should do, for the most part, and defends these views without sufficient cunning (and in ways that have now insulted a lot of Republicans).

    That’s because Perry worked his way up. Sure, even people who have all the advantages in the world, like Mitt Romney, have to work. but they are often strange and out of touch. Some of them have a real problem with personal character, and some of them do not. With Mitt, I think this is critical to understanding this person.

    Again, do not restate my position, please. I’m not asking Mitt to apologize for the wonderful situation he found himself in by birth.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  163. Overly wealthy, born into the highest priviledged Dilettante’s always know whats best for us humble folk.

    I’m not trying to demonize Mitt for having things I’m jealous of. People work hard for their families. It is only natural that Mitt had connections and advantages. People can and often should invest in family of their friends. I have no problem for it. Mitt did nothing wrong.

    I just note he never had it very tough. And when I ask myself how this person can flip flop on even the most central thing, I think this is the reason. There are wealthy people who don’t have this problem. Many pull a stint in the military. Many have convictions they defend, instead of defending themselves with fake convictions.

    It’s the things in Mitt’s control I have a problem with. The background I think is essential to understanding it. I know it’s possible to interpret what I’m saying as class warfare, which is why I’m going out of my way to disclaim that crap.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  164. Mitt Romney has a lack of personal character

    lol… perhaps that take will bother me as soon as he calls his fellow conservative countrymen “heartless”.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  165. there’s pee wee johnson
    when you find you’re on same page
    don’t walk… you should run!

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  166. Dustin,

    I think the country has had enough of rich people buying their positions lets let a working woman or man have a chance

    And Yeah I was against GWB even running for Gov

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  167. compelling story?
    rick’s career politician
    I am not impressed

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  168. President Obama called. He likes your ideas about class warfare. Winning!

    elissa (a68b36)

  169. You really think these Al Gore Jrs

    may have been a mistake to open that can o’worms…

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  170. Undercover Brother, is on, all stop

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  171. don’t know ’bout world
    colonel had it up to here
    with peewee johnson

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  172. Col Haik

    Romney has been a politician for just 5 years less than rick

    Romneys been Running since 1993

    Difference is that Rick wins his elections…

    EricPWJohnson (719277)

  173. walk that suckah back
    there, rickperry… lest you get
    written off by God

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  174. action pakt, peewee!

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  175. Dustin–In all seriousness I am very envious that you have so much respect and confidence in your governor and are so pleased with his service in your state. Competence should never be taken for granted.

    My governor is a weak, bleating rambling moron who can’t put together a sentence that makes sense and is basically a laughingstock at this point even to the Dems who elected him. We are hemorrhaging jobs and drowning in new taxes and fees. I can’t think of even one good thing to say about him.

    elissa (a68b36)

  176. “I can’t think of even one good thing to say about him.”

    Even thieving Democrats die in the end.

    And, that’s good.

    Dave Surls (28f866)

  177. President Obama called. He likes your ideas about class warfare. Winning!

    Comment by elissa — 9/28/2011 @ 6:34 pm

    Prolly right. I should just leave it be.

    I’m trying to make a much more confined point here, and it doesn’t seem to be getting across.

    I don’t think the point I’m making actually applies to Al Gore Jr or George W Bush, because those men have courage (Al Gore even has audacious gall). Somewhere in their lives, they developed character and bravery because, I suspect, they feared and overcame in some way as they became adults.

    Mitt Romney’s inability to stand up for anything that isn’t the poll tested correct thing to say is unusual. He did not ever learn how to overcome anything, and I think that’s because his background lacks something.

    Could I have taken the advantages Mitt Romney had and built some kind of multi billion dollar profit? Probably not, to be honest. Mitt’s definitely not lazy or stupid, and for the umpteenth time, I have no resentment of his advantages.

    However, they probably are there the reason Mitt Romney lacks principles. He’s not corrupt (nor does he have any need to be), but he is deeply unreliable. The things that need to be done for this country will take a spine, which is why I’m looking for a conservative with a record instead of a complete pandering flip flopper.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  178. Yeah, I shouldn’t have even opened this line of argument. It’s just not necessary and too easily misunderstood.

    I just want someone I can trust to have at least some idea what they right thing to do is, and to actually be willing to pay a price to do it, too. I don’t even really know what Romney believes. I just know that he’s talking the talk as well as anybody can.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  179. Dana likes being called a nativist.

    Doh Biden (& daley),

    I’ll try this again: I think if Perry meant and believed what he said – in light of his unique vantage point – then so be it. I would much rather know what my candidates *honestly* think and base my judgements upon that rather than basing it upon the lip service expected of them by the party. Because at some point in time, their true colors will come out and I would rather it be before I vote rather than after.

    If Perry believed that, he should own it, and if it riles the base, then so be it – that’s a risk he takes in his honesty. It may not be politically expedient, of course, but at least voters know precisely where the candidate stands.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  180. Not supporting someone is not the same as not voting for them.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  181. I hate misformatted videos.

    Kevin M (563f77)

  182. Doh Biden,

    I would hope with the field of people, that there would be at least one that conservatives can not only support but vote for them as well.

    When one just looks at the candidates themselves, it’s much easier to pick them apart than when one looks at them in light of President Obama and the state of our nation. The particulars seems to become a bit more tolerable as the bigger picture is looked at.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  183. manbearpig courage?
    dude hired naomi wolf to
    try to make him man

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  184. it did not work.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  185. whiskey tango foxtrot, gubner Perry!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJWtSASmAAk

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  186. Romney took pity on him… God-fearing man that he is. I did note a quizzical look cross his brow midway through that bumfuzzled moment.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  187. to quote the late Wolfman Jack, “Lord have moisey!

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  188. Dustin,

    NRO had an insightful look at Romney this week, Putting Repeal First, on whether or not he really does intend to repeal Obamacare.

    The point is made that every candidate has left no doubt as to their clear pledge to repeal as soon as they are in office, however, not quite so with Romney,

    Take Romney’s 59-point, 160-page economic plan. Romney summarizes his 59 policy proposals in a total of 45 separate sections (a few related proposals are combined). Of these, the section on repealing Obamacare (proposal #8) is by far the shortest, spanning just three sentences.

    Most telling is Romney’s list of “Day One” legislative initiatives. Seven of Romney’s 59 proposals make the cut as legislation to be proposed on Day One, but repealing Obamacare isn’t among them. Here are examples of bills that Romney prioritizes over legislation to repeal Obamacare: (see link)

    It would seem he’s in a bit of a sticky spot, and more importantly, I think he still needs to convince us,

    It’s one thing for Romney’s fellow Republicans to forgive Romneycare; it’s quite another to try to justify it publicly. The party cannot very well defend Romneycare and attack Obamacare simultaneously. Indeed, in the most recent debate, Romney, in his defense of his own health-care legislation, sounded like he was providing a defense of Obamacare, with his repeated invocation of “private, market-based insurance” and his insistence that people who were already insured could keep their plans.

    He still needs to convince us.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  189. Having said all that, if Rick Perry somehow gets nominated, he will get my vote, because he will for DAMN sure be a better president than that bum in there now.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  190. Perry’s two big problems are:

    A. Obama may not know what he’s doing*, but he is very, very good at talking as if he does know. If Perry wants to even pace him in debate, let alone defeat him, then Perry is going to have to work extra hard not only at knowing what he’s talking about (I mean on the national scale, and on the international scale, not just as the governor of Texas), but at sounding like he knows. Reaganesque platitudes won’t cut it. He needs to be the Man With The Plan, and it has to be a good plan, and also sound like a thoughtful plan. He’s facing an uphill climb on that score, and he needs to not only satisfy, but to well exceed the mark, simply to sound credible. Obama has a huge advantage here, not only the advantage the libs will extend him, but also the advantage of being the incumbent, and already knowing all the dark, scary things that only presidents know.

    B. The MSM, flailing and shrieking like a vampire at last trapped and exposed to sunlight, is going to pull out all the stops in its desperation this time around. Perry is going to be painted as a sort of insane, ignorant, rootin’-tootin’ Big Tex statue from the Texas State Fair. Not only that, he’s going to be the gullible dumb-as-dirt trigger-happy Lone Star Governor, the Second Coming of W. I have to admit, the thought of another foreign-policy naif just waiting to be hypnotized by the evil blandishments of the neo-cons keeps me awake at night with the shivers.

    Perry, in the general, on the national stage, trying to appeal to moderates and independents and stave off the attacks of far left crackpots and the MSM (BIRM) is going to have a lot of careful, subtle image work to do. And if he doesn’t do it, or if he does it badly, or if he doesn’t perceive the need to do it, then heaven help us.

    * — I actually don’t think it’s the case that Obama “doesn’t know what he doing,” I think he’s a race-revanchist who knows exactly what he’s doing: pursuing a vengeance-driven, anti-American, explicitly anti-white agenda, and I think he’s pretty much been going from strength to strength, so far as his coven sees it.

    d. in c. (6b27b0)

  191. manbearpig courage?
    dude hired naomi wolf to
    try to make him man

    Comment by ColonelHaiku

    He’s a piece of trash. He’s also got the backbone to stick to his guns on something, even when it’s not popular. Yes, he reinvented himself to some extent, but not so quickly that the idea of people disapproving of him is like fire.

    This is Romney on Abortin in 1994.

    He basically said the same, such that same convincing sincerity, in 2002. (forgot his mom was a Senate candidate too… he’s from a political dynasty, I guess, not that I haven’t voted for others who were too).

    As soon, and I mean just as soon as this was a problem, he was pro life. And not just moderately pro life, but you had better not dare call him pro choice. He believes in the sanctity of life and there’s just no denying that (And Cain notes ‘case closed’ for some reason, throwing Romney the lifeline he so badly needed).

    This is ridiculous to me.

    Al Gore would have stood up for what he believed. Stupid or smart, he would have.

    I could do this a dozen times if I wanted to. Romney doesn’t just take positions, but he takes very strong and articulate versions of them. This guy wasn’t just pro choice, he ardently believed it in his heart because of his close family member who suffered because of a ban on abortion, and he promises never to waver. And he’s not just pro life, but the sanctity of life is central and he could never waver.

    Romney went along happily with tax and spend policies in MA. His solution to MA’s deficit problem was solved by higher tax revenues, and spending went up. Yet listen to his agenda today. He’s changed his economic philosophy all around.

    George W Bush wouldn’t do that. Rick Perry wouldn’t either, in my opinion. I do not agree with Perry on everything, but at least I know where he stands, and I think at some point, Perry must have learned a degree of personal character because of challenges he faced in some way. I do not think Romney is qualified for the presidency if he doesn’t have that kind of character.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  192. Having said all that, if Rick Perry somehow gets nominated, he will get my vote, because he will for DAMN sure be a better president than that bum in there now.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 9/28/2011 @ 7:28 pm

    Same for me with Romney. He’ll be much more dedicated to his job (as Romney generally pours himself into his job) and he’s clearly much more intelligent than Obama. Also, Romney will need conservatives more than Obama. I think Romney will fail in many ways, but Obama is simply too high a price to pay for purity.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  193. I mean just as soon as this was a problem, he was pro life.

    I have never… ever… not once… met a faithful Mormon who personally supported abortion on demand.

    Never.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  194. upholding the law is a different issue.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  195. LOL @ Haiku’s 189. Pretty damn funny.

    Dana, at least for me, I don’t think there’s anything Romney can do. I think it’s interesting he’s left himself room, but if he came out with the most beautiful condemnation of mandating health insurance from the bottom of his heart, I simply wouldn’t believe he meant it.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  196. When is the first actual vote in a primary?

    JD (318f81)

  197. I have never… ever… not once… met a faithful Mormon who personally supported abortion on demand.

    Never.

    Comment by ColonelHaiku — 9/28/2011 @ 7:32 pm

    I don’t want to touch Romney’s personal adherence to his faith, but indeed I am basically calling him out for lacking principles on a matter that I have a very hard time rectifying with the kind of person you’re describing.

    I don’t think I’ve ever met a Mormon would would be nodding their head at that youtube link above. The man was in his forties. Do people really change their core convictions on the sanctity of human life after that?

    I doubt it’s hard to understand why I just don’t like the guy.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  198. The guy specifically notes he “supports” Roe v Wade as law. He wants abortion to be safe and he wants it to be legal and he notes he’s felt that way since 1970. He felt that way from 1970 until 2007. Thirty seven years. What changed in 2007? Romney’s position was now unpopular in GOP primaries across the country, whereas it had been popular in all prior elections he’d attempted to run in.

    Herman Cain accepts this. ‘case closed’. Of course, I’m not really talking about abortion. I’m talking about whether I can trust Romney on any matter, such as his novel length agenda. He’s trying just as hard to convince me that he means it as a fiscal con as he tried to convince MA he was a bona fide fan of Roe v Wade.

    If it were just one or two or three things, I would accept it as the man changing his mind. But please show me Romney taking a hard stand on anything. Is it really the case that his opinions ALWAYS match the opinions that are most convenient to have? That’s pretty lucky.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  199. “It is simply a fact they did not do this on their own initiative. Huntsman sr is a billionaire. George Romney also worked hard and it is beyond doubt that both Mitt and Jon had a lot of opportunities. They are not self made.

    Are you seriously suggesting that George Romney’s Michigan governership helped Mitt win the governorship 30 years later in blue Massachusetts or his American Motors background helped with the huge number of auto workers in Massachusetts?

    Hell yeah I am.”

    Dustin – How many millions did George Romney have? I have still seen no support from either you or EPWJ for the claims of the family wealth. Your claims of “fact” so far are completely unsupported, sorry. Do you have any proof that it was George Romney’s connections which enabled Mitt to secure multi-million dollar loans for Bain portfolio companies?

    I am glad you consider yourself an expert on the habits of wealthy families and how someone such as Jon Huntsman’s experience in the family business is not a worthy endeavor.

    “I don’t see why you even find this argument offensive.”

    If you supported your arguments with any actual facts rather than supposition, perhaps a class envy based argument would not be offensive to progressives. They usually are to Republicans.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  200. I have never… ever… not once… met a faithful Mormon who personally supported abortion on demand.

    I don’t know whether Harry Reid personally supports abortion on demand, but he certainly supports it publicly.

    Chuck Bartowski (e84e27)

  201. When is the first actual vote in a primary?

    Comment by JD — 9/28/2011 @ 7:35 pm

    January 31 – Florida?
    February 6 – March 5, 2012: Iowa caucuses, New Hampshire primary, Nevada caucuses, South Carolina primary
    February 6 – Iowa
    February 7 – Colorado ?
    February 14 – New Hampshire ?
    February 18 – Nevada caucuses
    February 28 – South Carolina primary
    February 28 – Arizona primary
    February 28 – Michigan primary
    March 6–31, 2012: Primaries that provide for proportional allocation of delegates to the candidates, and all nonbinding caucuses;
    April 1, 2012: Wyorado (and all other not listed, I think)
    April 24, 2012 – Primaries in Connecticut, New York, Pennsylvania, and Delaware

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  202. “Mitt Romney’s inability to stand up for anything that isn’t the poll tested correct thing to say is unusual.”

    Dustin – Face it, you really don’t know squat about Romney. You’re making it up as you go.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  203. Romney wants to be president even worser than putin

    good golly it’s like his dignity just flew right out the window like putin’s dress after a night on the town with russian sailors

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  204. “Could I have taken the advantages Mitt Romney had and built some kind of multi billion dollar profit?”

    Dustin – You could have done it without any of Romney’s advantages. Trust me.

    I was an investment banker when he made his big bucks and have many friends who became centimillionaires over the same period with none of the “connections” of which you speak. You just flat out don’t know what you are talking about.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  205. “He can compellingly explain how he will never waver (his word) from fighting to protect Roe v Wade to explaining how he abhors killing a fetus.”

    Dustin – People accepted Reagan’s flip flop, but Romney’s is a bridge too far. You just can’t trust those Mormon’s can you?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  206. fetuses are what happens when a man and a woman love each other very much

    except when they’re not

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  207. “I’ll try this again: I think if Perry meant and believed what he said – in light of his unique vantage point – then so be it.”

    Dana – I have no problem with what you said.

    What Perry said makes him sound like an amnesty shill.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  208. Dustin – What have been the toughest struggles Perry has had with his legislature over the course of his tenure as governor?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  209. I don’t know whether Harry Reid personally supports abortion on demand, but he certainly supports it publicly.

    Reid is far from a faithful Mormon. If you know any Mormons, ask them their personal opinion of Harry Reid.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  210. there are so many americans what actively work every day to destroy America – for example Barack Obama and all the hoochies at NPR and all the dirty union whores like nasty public school teachers and fascist piggy piggy not-ready-for-my closeup cops and the fat illiterate ones what make the camaros and Sean Penn and the cast of 30 Rock – that hard-working and nice immigrants legal or not are a useful counterbalance I think

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  211. “it’s simply a fact that Mitt Romney does not have any character. Because he never had any character building experiences.”

    Dustin – Yes, a 30 month Mormon mission to France does not build any character. Those Catholic wine drinkers love Mormons. Hey, maybe his daddy paid for him to do nothing while he was there?

    Could you try a little harder to be biased?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  212. that was his draft-dodging mission he did for Mormon jesus

    it was a different time

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  213. Now this performance is just plain downright scary:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngiJhmoFKkw&feature=related

    Personally I’m indifferent on the particular subject being discussed, but if this is Perry’s level of debating skill, and he has to face not only Obama (who is a good impromptu speaker, jokes about the teleprompter notwithstanding) but also a virtual firing squad of hostile questioners from the MSM debate-moderating hivemind, he’ll wilt in five minutes flat.

    People can say, “well, Bush sounded like that and he still managed to win” but they’d be missing the point:
    1. Bush got the only pass that was available on that score. Nobody from the GOP is gonna get the pass that Bush got, ever again.
    2. Yes, Bush talked that way and still won. And the upshot was, we all had to endure the nation-killing presidency of Bush.

    d. in c. (6b27b0)

  214. who is a good impromptu speaker,

    In what world is this true?

    JD (318f81)

  215. “It is becoming increasingly clear that Rick Perry has problems with the truth,” said Romney spokeswoman Andrea Saul in a statement. “Each of Rick Perry’s attacks has been proven false. Instead of dreaming up phony attacks on Mitt Romney, Governor Perry should explain why he encourages illegal immigration, why he wants to dismantle Social Security, and why he accepted billions of dollars of stimulus to cover up his massive budget deficit.”

    The statement was in an e-mail headlined, “PERRY’S PROBLEM WITH THE TRUTH.” The e-mail shared news reports that called the Perry ads and comments misleading, including this Washington Post piece calling Perry’s ad ‘Romney’s Race to the Flop’ “misleading campaign advertising.” The campaign also cited this Politifact report, which argues that Romney did not change his position on whether the nation should adopt Romneycare between the hardback and paperback editions of his book, as Perry suggested that he had during the debate last week. Also up for criticism was the Perry team’s decision to only use a partial quote of Romney’s in the ad about the stimulus released today.

    When I e-mailed the Perry campaign to see if they had any comment about the Romney campaign’s allegations, Perry spokesman Mark Miner responded, “The next time Mitt Romney writes a book he owes it to the public to disclose that his policies are subject to revisions due to changes in the political climate.”

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/278594/romney-camp-perry-s-problem-truth-katrina-trinko

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  216. The lies that lying liars tell…

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  217. I am glad you consider yourself an expert on the habits of wealthy families and how someone such as Jon Huntsman’s experience in the family business is not a worthy endeavor.

    That’s actually specifically NOT what I said.

    It’s just not as impressive to succeed when your father is a billionaire as it is to succeed with nothing but the shirt on your back.

    It is certainly worthwhile to do well with the advantaged you are born with.

    perhaps a class envy based argument would not be offensive to progressives. They usually are to Republicans.

    Not what I said. In fact, I specifically explained this is not what I am saying.

    Do you have any proof that it was George Romney’s connections which enabled Mitt to secure multi-million dollar loans for Bain portfolio companies?

    Do I have any proof that Chelsea Clinton’s connection to Bill Clinton landed her opportunities someone exactly like her but lacking those connections would not have?

    Not really. Yet of course that’s exactly what it was.

    Do you have proof it was Romney that enabled Bain to succeed, and not all those other founders and other MBAs?

    Not really, right?

    I mean, that’s your standard of proof, right? What specifically did Mitt do, and not all those other guys from that University that happened to name the institute they went to after Mitt’s dad?

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  218. why he wants to dismantle Social Security

    does he pray to mormon jesus with that dirty lying mouf?

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  219. I got your meaty, beaty, big and bouncy pancake right heyah, happyfeets!

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  220. ooh gross you make pancakes sound all dirty

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  221. you kiss yer mother with that mouth, ya gots nothin’ to worry about.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  222. Romney wants to be president even worser than putin

    good golly it’s like his dignity just flew right out the window like putin’s dress after a night on the town with russian sailors

    Very funny. Well done.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  223. “that was his draft-dodging mission he did for Mormon jesus”

    Mr. Feets – Mitt supported the Vietnam war, which reportedly made his mission in France more difficult since the war was unpopular there. I was unaware he was dodging the draft.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  224. Dustin – Yes, a 30 month Mormon mission to France does not build any character. Those Catholic wine drinkers love Mormons. Hey, maybe his daddy paid for him to do nothing while he was there?

    Could you try a little harder to be biased?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 9/28/2011 @ 8:09 pm

    Just to be clear, I have not hidden my bias against Romney. I am not an anti Mormon bigot. It has nothing to do with Mormons and I find it really bizarre it’s being brought up.

    No, I do not think someone has character just because they belong to a certain faith. All the mormons I know are good people, but I find it lame as all hell to throw up someone’s religion to prove they are good people.

    I sincerely doubt 30 months in France necessarily builds character. Why in the world do you think otherwise? Because Catholics oppressed Mitt Romney? Where did that come from?

    Mitt Romney was one of the most outspoken pro life Republicans I’ve ever heard of. He specifically notes he supports Roe v Wade. I’ve attended a Mormon service. That isn’t what they said.

    In fact, I didn’t have any problem with anything I heard in that service.

    Dustin – What have been the toughest struggles Perry has had with his legislature over the course of his tenure as governor?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 9/28/2011 @ 8:00 pm

    Don’t cut education spending. Use the ‘rainy day’ fund to deal with this or pay for that, instead of cutting everything to find the money/not spending on some new thing.

    It’s a lot of little things of that nature.

    I recall a controversial veto of a ban on some executions. He’s had a long running battle for tort reform stemming all the way back to when he was Lt Gov (the first GOP Lt Gov in Texas, btw). He sponsors a constitutional amendment on the issue. This is one reason health care in Texas is affordable, and doctors love to move out here.

    Of course, I’m sure you recall Perry rejected some stimulus funding with stings attacked (it would be unfunded in the future). This was also something of a controversy.

    Obviously, Perry is not in the legislature. So like Bush’s fight for the AUMF, the Texas Governor has to lobby instead of use any special powers he has.

    There’s some use of special funds to bring businesses to Texas via grants, particularly in emerging technology. I don’t think the legislature has a problem with that, though.

    The general tenor of his career is to try pretty hard to limit the growth of government and regulations and other issues (like tort abuse) that he thinks are getting in the way. I think Rick Perry largely wants government out of the way.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  225. ” perhaps a class envy based argument would not be offensive to progressives. They usually are to Republicans.

    Not what I said. In fact, I specifically explained this is not what I am saying.”

    Dustin – The problem is that even though you claim you are not saying it is a class envy argument, it is a class envy argument and you have no facts to substantiate your argument. The best you can do is Mitt’s father was an important person so ipso facto some of that importance must have helped Mitt. You can’t say exactly how or prove it, but those are FACTS!!!!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  226. Mr. Feets – Mitt supported the Vietnam war, which reportedly made his mission in France more difficult since the war was unpopular there. I was unaware he was dodging the draft.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 9/28/2011 @ 8:28 pm

    You say it reportedly made Mitt’s mission in france difficult. Can you explain what report you’re talking about?

    Honestly, you’re talking about how Mitt’s character was built up as he practiced his religion around Europeans in the 1970s? While his fellow Americans were fighting a war Mitt supported? I don’t want to call the guy a chickenhawk or a draft dodger. Especially that latter term, as that’s a very heavy charge and I don’t know that to be the reason Romney avoided the draft.

    Is that a way people avoided the draft? I’m ignorant of this issue.

    All I know is that it is not up for debate whether or not Mitt Romney has an abundance of character. He does not. Whatever happens in a man’s life to build character did not happen in Mitt’s life. I think he had it easy.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  227. “Do you have proof it was Romney that enabled Bain to succeed, and not all those other founders and other MBAs?”

    Dustin – He was the CEO of Bain Capital. I am sure it was a team effort.

    I’m still waiting on that wealth estimate for the Romney family.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  228. “I sincerely doubt 30 months in France necessarily builds character.”

    Dustin – Are you at all familiar with Mormon Missions?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  229. “Honestly, you’re talking about how Mitt’s character was built up as he practiced his religion around Europeans in the 1970s?”

    Dustin – 1966-1968, I believe. Think about it. Student riots and protests. Do some freaking research. Proselytizing in that environment, sure a piece of cake.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  230. “Don’t cut education spending.

    I recall a controversial veto of a ban on some executions.

    He’s had a long running battle for tort reform stemming all the way back to when he was Lt Gov (the first GOP Lt Gov in Texas, btw).”

    Dustin – If those were the toughest battles Perry has faced with his legislature, it sounds like he has had a very compliant body relative to what Romney had to deal with in Massachusetts.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  231. even though you claim you are not saying it is a class envy argument, it is a class envy argument and you have no facts to substantiate your argument.

    Wrong.

    When I say it doesn’t take as much energy for a car at 60 mph to reach 70 mph, that is not a speed envy argument.

    When I say it doesn’t take as much brilliance for Mitt Romney to become a governor as it took Rick Perry, that’s similarly just an analysis. There is not a hint of envy there.

    You say I have no facts, but I do have facts. You are actually demanding absolute proof, and since that is obviously impossible, you then take all the rather overwhelming facts and ignore them.

    The best you can do is Mitt’s father was an important person so ipso facto some of that importance must have helped Mitt. You can’t say exactly how or prove it, but those are FACTS!!!!

    I guess this makes you mad. I don’t know why. Yeah, those are facts. I am 100% correct, and you know I’m correct. That Mitt’s father was incredibly influential specifically to the people Mitt did business with (the co founders and I think damn likely his investors) is a fact. That Mitt’s father was well connected to the Nixon administration and George HW Bush also was a huge help to Mitt when he became a politician.

    I think that’s not quite the same story Rick Perry has.

    Eagle Scout Rick Perry went home to the farm after serving in war and represented his home district in the state leg after working as a door to door salesman. Folks endorsed him, even folks who disagreed completely with him politically, on personal grounds. He soon was on the appropriation committee, and known as a pit bull, and one of the most effective legislators in the state. I am not exaggerating.

    Meanwhile, Mitt Romney was oppressed in France by those “wine drinking Catholics” you are upset about. Then he got tens of millions of dollars from folks who named a school after Mitt’s father.

    OK. You call that class envy. I call it one guy worked hard and the other guy did not. I think Perry got the better end of the deal, and Romney should envy that deeply. You assume I must envy Romney. I don’t.

    Later, Rick Perry served as Ag Commissioner, supporting Texas farmers generally and also promoting their product to the rest of the world. It was quite a match for the skills Rick Perry had worked hard to cultivate. He had narrowly won his first term (the year Ann Richards beat Clayton Williams) over an incumbent, but easily won his second term.

    He later went on to become Lt Gov, and pushed tort reform and fiscal conservatism. Later Governor.

    I just think Rick Perry’s success came mainly from Rick Perry. He didn’t have a famous name. He didn’t have any connections. He served in the war he supported, not that one is obligated to do it, but it certainly builds character if you do. He entered politics from the ground level, instead of having a famous family come out to campaign and rally their supporters for him.

    I think Rick’s story and Mitt’s story are very different, and have led to one man who is very cunning yet doesn’t seem sincere, and another who is very sincere, but doesn’t seem cunning.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  232. Dustin – 1966-1968, I believe. Think about it. Student riots and protests. Do some freaking research. Proselytizing in that environment, sure a piece of cake.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 9/28/2011 @ 8:40 pm

    That’s all you have? That an anti American protest occurred in the same country Mitt Romney was in (did he choose to go to this country)?

    This is not impressing me. You said ‘reportedly’. Did you really mean that with respect to Romney? Did you just assume it was really hard? You do realize how this comes across, right? Rick Perry fought in that war. Mitt Romney was in the same country as a war protest. And Mitt’s

    Are you at all familiar with Mormon Missions?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 9/28/2011 @ 8:37 pm

    You have not bothered to substantiate anything.

    This is not much of an argument. Romney’s faith is between him and God. I’m more interested in whether I can count on him to really put his ass on the line if that’s what it takes to reform spending and entitlements.

    But I’ll share my limited understanding of missionary work. A mormon young man is financially supported by his family as he travels away from his home while meeting ‘standards’, which I recall to include basic religious stuff (prayer, read the text) and virginity. They might be taught a foreign language, and I think the church assigns them the gig (France sounds like a sweet gig). I think some get sent to Africa to help ease human suffering, and some get sent to nicer places to try to convert people to practice their faith. I assume Mitt spent time converting people to be Mormons. That’s cool. I do that too, though it’s organic in my faith.

    I’m not interested in litigating Mormonism. This is the third time I’ve noted I don’t see any reason to dig into this. It’s totally irrelevant.

    In no way have you successfully demonstrated Romney’s character.

    I’ve already laid out the reasons why I’m more impressed with Perry’s background.

    I’ve also laid out what I think is a good reason to doubt Romney’s character. At 58 years of age, after 37 years of being pro choice, and promising never to waver, he finally realized the truth in the sanctity of human life. The timing makes it obvious this was insincere. Either we was helping support abortion rights against his true principles, or he does not really have those principles, and is merely vying for power for its own sake.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  233. On second thought, it is not accurate to say Perry fought in Vietnam.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  234. Dustin – If those were the toughest battles Perry has faced with his legislature, it sounds like he has had a very compliant body relative to what Romney had to deal with in Massachusetts.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 9/28/2011 @ 8:45 pm

    That’s hilarious from my POV, where Austin was up in arms against tort reform. Did you not notice that it took ages for Perry to get tort reform?

    And I’m not sure you’re right about Mitt’s hostility. Didn’t Mitt agree to increases in corporate taxes and gun banning? Sure, democrats passed those measures, and that would mean they are hostile to most Republicans, but didn’t Mitt actually applaud these things? Didn’t he describe them as “working together”?

    Isn’t it true that Romney and the legislature agreed to increase government spending three out of four years?

    You make it sound like Romney was fighting the good fight to make MA more conservative against the wishes of the legislature, but Romney actually was fighting to make the MA government bigger and more powerful, with more regulations over things like buying health insurance or owning certain guns, with higher taxes.

    Sure, had Romney done the great things Perry did in Texas, with a government that works even in a downturn, that would be truly impressive. But that’s not really the truth.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  235. “That’s all you have? That an anti American protest occurred in the same country Mitt Romney was in (did he choose to go to this country)?”

    Dustin – Your contempt before investigation does not serve you well. You are verging on EPWJ territory, which is unusual for you. It is clear you have no understanding of Mormon Missions, why they would be difficult in a stalwart Catholic wine drinking country, and also difficult in a very anti-Vietnam War France. Try thinking a bit.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  236. “That’s hilarious from my POV, where Austin was up in arms against tort reform. Did you not notice that it took ages for Perry to get tort reform?”

    Dustin – If it’s funny it’s because it’s from your list.

    It sounds like Perry had a compliant legislature.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  237. “That Mitt’s father was incredibly influential specifically to the people Mitt did business with (the co founders and I think damn likely his investors) is a fact. That Mitt’s father was well connected to the Nixon administration and George HW Bush also was a huge help to Mitt when he became a politician.”

    Dustin – Facts=I think damn likely? You really need to do better. Mitt call potential investor, hey I have a fund I want you to invest in. Investor say, hey Mitt, your dad was a great guy, but I have a fiduciary duty to the people I manage money for and I have to invest money on its merits, not friendships.

    I think the above is a darn likely scenario based on my experience.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  238. “I see you read version 2.0 of Romney’s book!

    Just kidding. I realize Romney has made that distinction, and it’s plausible. However, he also has spoken of Romneycare as a model for the rest of the country and then deleted that from his book and denied it when called out.”

    Dustin – See Powerline’s debunking of this bogus line of attack from the Perry camp:

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/09/the-fact-checker-gets-one-right.php

    Are you having sex with EPWJ?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  239. a fine way to wake up Thursday morning! Now colonel battles to get that last image out of head.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  240. ‘Goggles they do nothing’,Colonel,

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  241. eyes glaze friends fight friends
    accusations fly tempers
    flare how will it end

    elissa (b9d8a9)

  242. Romney likes to lie about Perry’s position on social security but everyone but Miss Mittens knows it’s a dirty ponzi scheme.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  243. Kids don’t get to pick their parents, whether their last name is Ramos or Romney. What matters is what they do with their lives, and Mitt Romney’s life is admirable. If we Texans seem to come down a little hard on Romney, perhaps it’s because he reminds us of someone else who was privileged and had problems with promises — George H. W. Bush.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  244. http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/09/the-fact-checker-gets-one-right.php

    Are you having sex with EPWJ?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 9/28/2011 @ 11:17 pm

    Your link fails to debunk Perry’s accurate point. Romney did indeed delete a sentence from his book hoping to see Romneycare as a model for the rest of the country. That’s a fact.

    Powerline does not add much argument at all, other than complaining that Romney is being attacked at all, which they say is not what they want to happen.

    But the point was accurate. Yeah, Romney says he supports states rights to mandate (force) purchase of health insurance, and he also says he thinks Romneycare is what these other states should do. In other words, he’s talking out of both sides of his mouth, and when the public came down hard against Obamacare, Romney deleted the part that was less popular.

    The politifact excuse that it’s not relevant anymore, and that explains why it should be deleted, rings completely hallow. Obamacare is still relevant, and Romney’s views on it are a political albatross. Romney’s dismissal of Perry’s point that you can just read it for yourself ignores completely the accurate point that Romney did indeed remove the sentence.

    Since then, the Romney defense has been ‘how dare Perry attack a fellow Republican!!!!!!!’ and ‘words are boring!!!!’ But it was Romney who opened fire on Perry with his nasty demagoguery against social security reform, relying entirely on the lowest democrat scare tactics about how Perry’s going to abolish social security instead of reform it (much as Romney also will say when it suits him, but again, Romney is a rank hypocrite.)

    So I don’t get it. Why do Romney’s fans whine about Romney being attacked, if Romney is so aggressive against his competitor?

    Dustin – If it’s funny it’s because it’s from your list.

    So I prove my point, that you are dead wrong, and you dismiss it. You have no arguments. Just sneering and ugliness. Yes, Perry accomplished a lot more as governor than Romney did, such as his version of health care reform, which was to put trial lawyers in their place (to some extent, getting one aspect of government out of our way). That does not prove compliance. In fact, it was a difficult and long term campaign outlasting Romney’s entire political career, but Perry did get it done because, unlike Romney, he stuck to his principles even when it wasn’t easy to do.

    You just dismiss that. Perry got it done, so ipso facto it was easy for anyone to get done, even though no one was ever able to do that before.

    You really need to do better. Mitt call potential investor, hey I have a fund I want you to invest in. Investor say, hey Mitt, your dad was a great guy, but I have a fiduciary duty to the people I manage money for and I have to invest money on its merits, not friendships.

    I think the above is a darn likely scenario based on my experience.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 9/28/2011 @ 10:26 pm

    That’s all you have? I proved that Mitt has amazing connections, and you say ‘well, in my experience, connections don’t help’. You’re embarrassing yourself.

    Dustin – Your contempt before investigation does not serve you well. You are verging on EPWJ territory, which is unusual for you. It is clear you have no understanding of Mormon Missions, why they would be difficult in a stalwart Catholic wine drinking country, and also difficult in a very anti-Vietnam War France. Try thinking a bit.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 9/28/2011 @ 10:19 pm

    You are embarrassing yourself, Daleyrocks.

    Stop using insults. You are dead wrong. It is not that big a deal to practice your faith in France. You specifically said that “reportedly” Romney had a character building experience there, and I have repeatedly asked you to show me that report. You have refused to back up your assertion, and resorted to whining that I am not investigating.

    I’m not asserting something with no evidence. You are. You want to inject faith into this discussion, but I think that’s irrelevant. I think wandering around France asking people if they want to be Mormons, supported by your wealthy family is fine. I cannot prove a negative. I do not think anything about this experience shows that Mitt Romney has character. I bet a lot of Mormons do have character, and I bet some of them don’t. Same as just about all other groups of people. You cannot simply say ‘Mormon’ and then condemn anyone who asks you to substantiate your claim.

    In fact, I think it’s clear I have a pretty solid understanding of the topic. I think your hysteria about wine drinking catholics is ridiculous. In what way did they persecute poor Mitt Romney? What actual responsibilities did Mitt have at that time? I’m glad he practiced his faith, but if this is all you have to prove Mitt has character, you have failed to back up your claims. I think it’s bizarre you are even bringing his religion up.

    BTW, since all Mormon teenagers I knew encountered pressure to go on missionary work, and my argument is that Romney never built the character to resist pressure. I’m not interested in evaluating his faith, but your own argument is that complete a failure.

    Kids don’t get to pick their parents, whether their last name is Ramos or Romney.

    This is true. I should not have bothered with this line of argument. I think Romney never had the kind of challenges in his life that great leaders had, and this is why at 58 years old he’s able to cynically flip from the most stalwart champion of Roe v Wade to the most indignant opponent, calling it a dirty lie to quote Romney (much as Daleyrocks is whining that Perry is quoting Romney’s own words on Romneycare being a model for the rest of the country).

    I think Daleyrocks is too biased in Romney’s favor to see this clearly. I, on the other hand, have no problem criticizing Perry.

    This entire long argument is merely because Daleyrocks hates that I deny Romney has character, and I think that’s because he had it too easy growing up. His need to inject religion into it is incredibly lame.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  245. I didn’t know about Romney’s mission in France. His French accent is impressive and it sounds like his experiences helped him mature.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  246. “I think Daleyrocks is too biased in Romney’s favor to see this clearly. I, on the other hand, have no problem criticizing Perry.

    This entire long argument is merely because Daleyrocks hates that I deny Romney has character, and I think that’s because he had it too easy growing up. His need to inject religion into it is incredibly lame.”

    Dustin – I’m not a Romney supporter. I’m against unsupported, specious arguments, which is all you’ve been making.

    You accuse Romney of having no character building experiences and I point out a 30 month Mormon mission in 1960s France, a period of history of which you apparently know nothing and an experience of which you know nothing and you wave it off. That proves nothing! That’s all you’ve got! And you accuse me of using insults after you brought up the no character point?

    There were several things to be learned about Mitt’s character from that mission and you obviously missed them all. Congratulations.

    Your curious reading of both the Powerline and Wapo pieces is interesting. They both suggest Perry blew his attack on Romney. Romney updated his book between the hardback and paperback edition to reflect the passage of ObamaCare, with the salient paragraph being above the one Perry quoted. Read again.

    Romney’s father died in 1995. Unless you have some sources you can produce, you are doing nothing more than speculating on his influence on Mitt’s business and political career. You have not even gotten to Joe McGuinness level gossip.

    DRJ is quite correct to point out that people can’t pick their parents, a point I meant to make last night, yet you and EPWJ seem hyperfocused on Mitt’s parents. It does seem pure class envy.

    You get overly defensive over questions about Rick Perry. I don’t understand your point about tort reform. I asked for a list of Perry’s battles. You listed tort reform then called hilarious when I regurgitated it. WTF? Texas was a cesspool of a litigation environment, or at least parts of it were. Most knowledgeable business people know that. Presumably trial lawyers put up a big fight over reforming the system. What was Perry’s role in the fight?

    Other than tort reform, you really described a governor with a compliant legislature? You are hostile to question about people wishing to avoid electing another fighter pilot from Texas lacking solid conservative credentials. Why is that?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  247. I’am not having sex with EPWJ but he is right about Romney usually.

    Gotta love Roy Innis supporting conservative causes being called controversial.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  248. btw, my reaction to the nasty (and I believe bad faith) way Daleyrocks has argued with me is anger. I am absolutely sure I will greatly increase my anti Romney rhetoric, no matter how much people whine that this is a violation of the 11th commandment that Romney’s fans don’t actually believe in.

    If Daleyrocks wants me to see the error in my thinking, he will answer my specific questions about the huge gaping holes in his arguments (such as how easy and compliant it was to pass tort reform, and how catholics who like wine have persecuted Mitt, proving he has character). A whole lot of people Mitt’s age were not in Paris enjoying one of the most beautiful and civil countries on earth while surrounded by high culture, with the only responsibilities being to practice the faith you love and ask others to do it too. A lot of Mitt’s countrymen had responsibilities like flying a helicopter over Vietnam, or fixing a generator in the jungle. I do not demand everyone fight in any war they support. If Mitt wanted to support Vietnam and then fly to Paris for his religious observance, that is 100% OK, and I am not being sarcastic.

    But I am not out of line to require a little more reasoning that Romney’s time away from the draft proves his great character any more than Clinton’s missionary work in Canada (different type of missionary). This argument makes absolutely no sense to me.

    I also think Perry’s military service is an additional qualification to be President, and Romney’s oppression at the hands of wine drinking frogs is not in the slightest.

    Romney didn’t have to work his way up as a politician like Perry did. He’s never been a legislator (note my link above showing Perry was one of the best in the state). He’s never been on appropriations. He’s never served at a mid level in an administration (such as Perry’s ascent from barely winning ag commish over an incumbent democrat mired in scandal to becoming very successful and popular in that position, vaulting him to being the first Republican LT Gov in Texas).

    Romney had a much easier time getting into politics because he hails from a political dynasty. In fact, Mitt Romney has only won a single election, and was unpopular by the end of his single term that saw increases in taxation, regulation, and spending, because as Romney said, he and the democrats worked together.

    Mitt Romney would never had had a chance becoming a Governor without his UAW beloved dad coming out to campaign for him. And MA had buyer’s remorse.

    I don’t think Mitt has what it takes to be a leader. He’s simply more prepared for the makeup and cameras because he has been running for president for half a decade, while most of his competitors had jobs.

    I await Daley’s response, which will probably include asking me who I’m having sex with, as though I have somehow been sleazy and this is some kind of justified reaction from a good faith adult.

    As an aside, I recall Daleyrocks mentioning he was concerned about some of Perry’s appointments being cronies. In looking into Bain, I’ve seen people getting plum jobs from Romney as governor. One stands out.

    Eric Kriss took on the unions. He was unable to sway the MA government to do anything, but he noted the looming financial disaster Romney did not fix. He also pushed to remove tolls, but it took the next governor to remove the bureaucracy behind the tolls. This sounds like a leader to me, but he left halfway through Mitt’s term and went on to business and teaching about business.

    My point is that Bain had a lot of leaders.

    Yeah, Romney surrounded himself with good people, and deserves credit. But the idea he is some kind of mastermind of business is probably BS. He probably simply surrounded himself with smart people who actually did the leading. I say that entirely because those people seem to still be leading, and Mitt doesn’t. So let’s dismiss the notion Mitt is an economic savant. And if he is, he should be advising a leader who has a spine.

    DRJ is right that I do associate Mitt with George HW Bush, and indeed that is a big reason I have a problem with him being our nominee. Let’s not just oppose Obama, folks. Let’s also support something. If you don’t want to support Perry, that’s fine, but don’t make your vote simply a vote against Obama, because it’s hard to build a movement entirely around negativity. Pick one of the leaders, not just the fancy guy who says exactly what you want to hear because he’s shameless.

    Just my humble advice.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  249. Romney’s father died in 1995. Unless you have some sources you can produce, you are doing nothing more than speculating on his influence on Mitt’s business and political career. You have not even gotten to Joe McGuinness level gossip.

    What gossip? I’m merely stating the obvious. You’re the one making claims and failing to back them up.

    Show me the report you claimed to have that Romney went through an ordeal in France. I think you made that up. Prove me wrong. Prove you aren’t a liar.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  250. I point out a 30 month Mormon mission in 1960s France, a period of history of which you apparently know nothing and an experience of which you know nothing and you wave it off.

    Huh?

    Because there were war protests? Are you kidding? So if I simply ask specifically what Romney’s ordeal was in France, you assert I must be incredibly ignorant?

    Seriously?

    You have noted I am ignorant many times. Yes, that’s why I’m asking you to back up your claims. It’s time for you to admit you made it up, or show me how Romney specifically grew up.

    I think a lot of men Romney’s age did grow up during that time because they did not go to Europe, but rather had responsibilities.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  251. BTW, Daleyrocks keeps missing the point.

    We’re not talking about whether or not Romney built character. We all know he didn’t. That’s already proven.

    I say he never was truly challenged and had it pretty easy all his life, which is why Daley is making this strange religious argument.

    But it’s beside the point. Just look at this guy lie to your face on any number of issues he has passionately been on both sides of. People with character don’t suddenly change their mind at 58 years old about the sanctity of human life. It was shameless, and that’s case closed. I can assert, with this strong evidence, that Romney never developed character.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  252. Dear Dustin:

    “…because it’s hard to build a movement entirely around negativity. …”

    I would argue that that, precisely, was BHO’s campaign in 2008. What did he propose that was not a supposed negation of GWB’s policies? And even when breaks campaign promises and screws up repeatedly, hand over fist, he continues to blame the prior administration.

    I have no problem with an “Anyone but Obama” movement. None at all.

    Because I don’t think the Left argues about their candidates the way we are. Which is why we stand a chance of losing in 2012.

    And think about four more years of this incompetent person and staff in office.

    Just my opinion.

    Simon Jester (216b02)

  253. Mitt Romney had a one night stand with Mitt Romney.

    The Boston Tea Party was because of taxations.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  254. Anyone who votes for Obama deserves the misery he will wrought upon them when the economy collapses.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  255. Flip Flopney and his minions need to remove thier heads from their ass.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  256. I have no problem with an “Anyone but Obama” movement. None at all.

    We need someone who can hold the tent together. It will be too easy to divide the right if we nominate someone simply because they appear to be closest to the center where all the votes are.

    Sure, beating Obama is a high enough priority to vote for a RINO in the general, and Romney is obviously smarter and better than Obama, and his shameless pandering is probably going to make him a similar president to George HW Bush, which isn’t ideal, but is so much better than Obama.

    But we can do better, and I think we can nominate someone more electable, because I think Obama’s campaign can simultaneously turn voters off to Romney’s leftist and conservative positions at the same time with a ‘flop flopper’ campaign.

    Because I don’t think the Left argues about their candidates the way we are. Which is why we stand a chance of losing in 2012.

    You’re right. On both the premise and the conclusion. The GOP is less likely to hold together because we will not simply rally around someone for political expediency.

    You might see this as a disadvantage. I think it’s got its advantages too.

    I do not appreciate Romney fans (lamely posing as neutral while displaying ridiculous bias) giving me Joe McGinnis style ‘did you have sex with so and so’ attacks while projecting their sleaze onto me for the sin of asking for someone to back up their claims.

    Yeah, that’s not party building on my part. Sorry.

    But I think it’s critical we nominate someone the entire party can get behind. A lot of people cannot get behind Romney. They should, if they know what’s good for them, but they won’t.

    We also can’t nominate someone else that the entire party can’t get behind. Sometimes, Perry acts in a way that suggests he is also unable to rally together the whole tent.

    It’s a significant issue worthy of discussion.

    Because of the argument you have correctly brought, Simon, we have overcome (And then benefit from) the GOP’s inability to get a centrist ‘at least I’m not Obama’ candidate very far.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  257. rather we have to overcome [...]

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  258. ________________________________________________

    I also think Perry’s military service is an additional qualification to be President, and Romney’s oppression at the hands of wine drinking frogs is not in the slightest.

    I suspect both Romney and Perry will be ideologically squishy on occasion, and so they’re more alike than different.

    Almost every major blunder of Republican administrations going back to at least Herbert Hoover, and including Nixon (natch), Ford, Reagan, Bush Sr, and Bush Jr, has been when they allowed liberal sentiment to get the better of them.

    Romney has RomneyCare as a part of his history and Perry has the even more recent “you’re heartless” as a part of his resume. The latter response combined with Perry apparently being a loyal Democrat (I believe he once said he wanted to reform the party from within instead of becoming a Republican) and supporting Al Gore as recently as the 1980s, gives me a strong hunch he’s the type prone to, as one example, what can be labeled the Reagan-Iran Syndrome—ie, where Ronald Reagan said publicly that the US does not deal with hostage-taking nations, and then did just the opposite behind closed doors.

    I observed the debate in the thread about the end of “don’t ask, don’t tell” and I could detect more than a bit of squishiness among various forumers in response to that controversy. IOW, most people (if not all people, except super extremists) are liable to be squishy on occasion.

    Mark (411533)

  259. “If Daleyrocks wants me to see the error in my thinking, he will answer my specific questions about the huge gaping holes in his arguments”

    Dustin – Just remember back to when you were making bad faith accusations about Mitt Romney concerning the Salt Lake City Olympics and Bain Capital from positions of zero knowledge several months back. I stepped in and smacked you around then too. You’re doing it again.

    My inclusion of religion in my comments was not lame it was directly relevant to the subject at at hand. Do yourself a favor and read about Mormon missions. As others have also mention, I have also never met a Mormon who was not pro-life. Romney’s position was completely consistent in 1994 and 2002 as you noted. There are many politicians who also have personal views on matters they say they will not impose on the public sphere. You may not like it, but it is true.

    I’m against letting specious arguments stand on this site, just as I was when you made them about Romney and the Olympics and Bain Capital the first time. I don’t like to see the site turned into the National Enquirer by regular commenters.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  260. Flip Flopney and his minions need to remove thier heads from their ass.

    Comment by DohBiden — 9/29/2011 @ 8:58 am

    It’s hard to avoid this kind of argument, but that’s also counter productive. Just as Daleyrocks’s dismissal of some impressive things Perry has done really tick me off, and his sleazy rhetoric about my sex life is also pissing me off, I have to try as hard as I can to make my point in a way that at least intellectually honest Romney fans will agree with.

    Some of these people are pragmatic, and have calculated Romney is the most centrist politician, and are hoping that means he can beat Obama. If they see why this is not a good prediction, they will pick a better candidate.

    That’s why I’m trying to base my criticisms on Romney on reasonable facts (despite a Romney fan pretending otherwise).

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  261. The latter response combined with Perry apparently being a loyal Democrat (I believe he once said he wanted to reform the party from within instead of becoming a Republican) and supporting Al Gore as recently as the 1980s, gives me a strong hunch he’s the type prone to, as one example, what can be labeled the Reagan-Iran Syndrome—ie, where Ronald Reagan said publicly that the US does not deal with hostage-taking nations, and then did just the opposite behind closed doors.

    To some extent, I think this is a fair concern about Perry.

    A lot of Texans were not republicans despite being very conservative. Part of that was the corrupt and awful Nixon administration (the Romney family is actually connected to them, and this is where the bond between the Romney and Bush political dynasties was first forged if I’m not mistaken). I should note that I resent political dynasties in and of themselves. Not sure if others disagree.

    Anyway, I find it difficult to explain why, after the democrats in the US House behaved as they did from the mid 1970s throughout the 1980s, that anyone would remain a democrat if they were fiscally conservative.

    Yet a lot of Texans did that. I guess to some extent it was a political necessity in the short term, but as soon as a few started switching parties, that wasn’t the case anymore.

    Al Gore was, in fact, the most conservative democrat in 1988 in contention. This is amazing, but true.

    Sometimes the GOP is so far gone in behavior that one also wonders if it’s hopeless to reform it from within.

    But your concern is legit, and it’s proven by Perry’s terrible ‘they have no heart’ comment. I still think Perry’s actual leadership record is pretty consistent and conservative, but it’s only fair that he’s paying a political price for this.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  262. _______________________________________________

    Anyone who votes for Obama deserves the misery he will wrought upon them when the economy collapses.

    I read that ultra-ultra-liberal Hugo Chavez still retains around at least a 50% popularity rating among Venezuelans, and in another thread the history of Argentina as both a routinely left-leaning society and a country also struggling with economic dysfunction for over 100 years was noted.

    Closer to home, Mexico has been a socio-economic mess for decades and — no surprise — most of the voters there always have and probably always will think and act like stereotypical urban Americans (the recent election in New York City notwithstanding).

    Left-leaning sentiment tends to make people both blind and absurdly foolish—and, worse of all, not even necessarily kind, humane and generous. I foresee a future when the US will come very close to mirroring nations like Venezuela, Mexico and Argentina, not to mention a variety of Euro-Socialist societies.

    Mark (411533)

  263. I have not followed this thread to know what’s going on, so I’m making one comment about the original topic that might have already been said.

    Lots of people (just how many, not sure) thought Perry was going to be a great candidate and just couldn’t wait until he got in. Now that he has been in it a few weeks his feet of clay have been quite evident. Even if Christie got in, after a few weeks he may not be the wundercandidate everyone is hoping for.

    I’m not happy with the extent of nipping at each others heels at the moment.

    I say the perfect candidate is someone with little baggage who will lean heavily on Paul Ryan for content and plain spokenness, and a little bit on Palin for energy and “taking it to the people”.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  264. I’m not happy with the extent of nipping at each others heels at the moment.

    I apologize. Part of it is just defending myself from insults, which is stupid as it’s the internet. Part of it really is my inability to accept Romney being the nominee.

    Now that he has been in it a few weeks his feet of clay have been quite evident.

    Yeah.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  265. “…It will be too easy to divide the right…”

    Unlike the Left, we do that all on our own.

    And Axelrod smiles.

    Mind you, it would be okay if the Left did that too. You give me a primary challenge to Obama and I will be very pleased.

    But the Left closes ranks.

    The Right chews off its own limbs.

    Remember the Supreme Court. And endless bureaucratic appointments.

    ABO.

    Like Dennis Miller says, whoever becomes the nominee should change their name to “Not Obama.”

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  266. Yes, he flubbed that last debate, that’s beyond question, but the relentness stampede away from him. is a little silly.

    ian cormac (ed5f69)

  267. _________________________________________________

    and it’s proven by Perry’s terrible ‘they have no heart’ comment.

    Dustin, as DRJ mentioned previously, most of us in this forum aren’t the ones who will be deciding the outcome in 2012. That’s a big reason I filter arguments in favor of or against Republican contenders not through the lens of conservative biases, but through the lens of people whose thinking and biases I can’t relate to, or who I have a hard time getting a fix on.

    I’d be a fool to believe a good majority of people in this nation (or any advanced society) leans right. I see opinion polls that indicate a large percentage of people still blame George W Bush for our current problems, meaning the leftist propaganda of Democrats/liberals (and woe-is-me Obama in particular) is subscribed to by lots of folks.

    Going back to the distant past, I’ve NEVER seen anyone ever note that Herbert Hoover was generally as liberal as his successor was, referring to Franklin Roosevelt. Yet Roosevelt through the decades has been treated like the friendly, lovely “mommy” of US history, while Hoover has been vilified (or saddled with the meme of his being a stereotypical country-club conservative) as the “Republican” who incubated the Great Depression—which he did, but not because of a rightist approach to the problem, but because of liberal policymaking.

    That’s the big irony of both George W Bush and Herbert Hoover. IOW, leftist sentiment is at the heart of some of the biggest blunders of Bush and Hoover. But many people don’t attribute such characteristics to the failures of those two presidencies, at least based on a fair share of the electorate — on too many occasions — then turning around and giving big hugs and kisses to out-and-out liberals/Democrats. Simply put, if things weren’t that way, Obama would be trailing in all polls by several percentage points against any and every Republican out there.

    Mark (411533)

  268. ” I point out a 30 month Mormon mission in 1960s France, a period of history of which you apparently know nothing and an experience of which you know nothing and you wave it off.

    Huh?

    Because there were war protests? Are you kidding? So if I simply ask specifically what Romney’s ordeal was in France, you assert I must be incredibly ignorant?

    Seriously?”

    Dustin – Seriously? Yes!

    You made the allegation that Romney never went through any character building experiences and therefore he evidences no character. I said, hey, what about that 30 month Mormon mission to France?

    You now think it’s lame to introduce religion into the discussion? How many 17 year olds volunteer to spend 30 months in a foreign country, where people speak a different language, where their 15-16 hour days consist of study, prayer and proselytizing. That proselytizing involves converting people from Catholicism to Mormonism, a religion which prohibits alcohol, smoking and premarital sex, in a country which is very fond of all three. As an added bonus, young folks in the country are sort of virulently anti-U.S. at the time and anti-colonial after the war for Algerian independence French shellacking in Vietnam.

    Where does a young person sign up for such non-character building experiences?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  269. Everytime our pathetic trolls speak someone should link to the price is right failing horns.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  270. “That’s why I’m trying to base my criticisms on Romney on reasonable facts”

    Dustin – Saying Mitt achieved what he achieved based on his family’s wealth and connections is not a fact-based argument.

    Evidence of family wealth presented – None

    Evidence of family connections used to advance business or political career – None

    All you are doing is throwing out sheer speculation. Bain was very, very hot consulting firm in the early 1980s and if I had to bet, the Bain name carried a lot more weight with money people than the name George Romney.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  271. :roll: Beginning to get sick and tired of the romney koolaid drinkers[not you daleyrocks sliming Palin with inaccurate statements.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  272. [not you daleyrocks]

    DohBiden (d54602)

  273. The Convention is eleven months away, and we’ve got a “cat fight” going on here that would make Linda McMahon proud.
    C’mon, “ladies”, lets stick to issues and keep our sights on the target: The Lightworker!

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (8e16f7)

  274. Well, we both would rather see Romney or Perry over Obama, Drew.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  275. Well, let’s stick to that, and leave the personal out of it – save it for something that matters:
    Piling-on tiffy and spvrty, for instance.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (8e16f7)

  276. “Don’t let the Perfect be the Enemy of the Good!”

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (8e16f7)

  277. Well, let’s stick to that, and leave the personal out of it – save it for something that matters:
    Piling-on tiffy and spvrty, for instance.

    Comment by Another Drew – Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! —

    That’s my preference. I don’t understand why I said to justify McGinnis style ‘you’re sleeping with X’ nonsense. I’m not being dishonest here, or pretending to be neutral. I favor one guy over the other, and explain why, providing my reasoning. If someone thinks that is horrible, why are they reading politics blogs?

    Anyway, we’ve got months before voting. I want Romney to lose the primary, and will do what I can.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  278. I like reading different opinions, especially about politics, and I think honest criticism of conservative candidates is especially valuable. Having said that, it’s still hard to see people I know and like get upset.

    However, it also seems there is more desperation among Republicans, perhaps similar to what the Democrats felt in 2008. I suspect the main fear is that Obama will be re-elected — at least, it is for me because I’m not afraid of electing Romney, Perry, or even Cain, despite the fact he’s never held office. But if there is concern about the GOP candidates, I’ll try to articulate what I fear about Perry, Cain and Romney:

    I care about illegal immigration and about ObamaCare but, for me, both of those pale compared to concern that Obama is pushing America into unmanageable deficits and fiscal socialism. My goal is to elect someone who will halt and hopefully reverse that slide. I think all of the GOP candidates want to do that, but I’m afraid Perry won’t be articulate enough and Romney won’t be conservative enough and Cain won’t be politically knowledgeable enough to make them effective proponents for conservative fiscal policies. I support Perry because he’s the one I know best, the one I think will best stick to his values, and the one who has enough political experience to surround himself with people who can implement his goals. But who knows?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  279. it just feels in my heart that to nominate Romney would be same as spitting in the eye of the Tea Party

    I just can’t be a party to that

    I won’t be a party to that

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  280. ==I just can’t be a party to that
    I won’t be a party to that==

    Heh happyfeet. That’s a well written dramatic scene and I can definitely envision you in performance with dramatic hand gestures and flounces.

    elissa (c0ee38)

  281. :roll: then vote for Obama you piece of morbidly obese flotsam.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  282. Mr. Feets – Let’s party like it’s 1773!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  283. Joe Biden just admitted the economy belongs to the dems.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  284. Libtards what should we do to not screw with the ozone?

    DohBiden (d54602)

  285. you know who can suck it is King George

    and Romney

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  286. and all the h8rs

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  287. Anyway, we’ve got months before voting. I want Romney to lose the primary, and will do what I can.

    That’s the ol’ team spirit!

    How about you ask Perry to string a coherent sentence or two together and to articulate his plan to right the ship for starters!

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  288. happyfeets, you weak-suck, you.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  289. I’ve had enough of a president who smirks his way through a TOTUS-aided speech. I don’t think I could handle a smirkin’, Gomer Pyle hybrid, no matter who vouches for his bonafides.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  290. Col, I’ll trade Perry’s incoherence for President Millstone’s any day of the week.
    Right now we’ve got a guy who’s incoherent reading a ‘prompter, for craps sake.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (8e16f7)

  291. May the best candidate prevail!

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  292. Dustin- re #269

    I was actually referring to the candidates nipping at each other. As I said, I haven’t followed this thread and I don’t know what has provoked verbal fisticuffs among folk who normally seem not inclined to such things.

    I think somebody has hacked this site and is broadcasting subliminal messages to irritate us.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  293. “As I said, I haven’t followed this thread and I don’t know what has provoked verbal fisticuffs among folk who normally seem not inclined to such things.”

    MD in Philly – You could go back to #135 and examine the regurgitation of bogus Perry talking points.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  294. Yep, H8Rs gotta H8.

    I hope Mr. Feet gets over drinking the H8Rade. Quit taking the eleH8R all the way to the hate floor.

    Because anything is better than the arrogant fools running the ship of state right now. And if you don’t like what is happening now, imagine four more years of it.

    Sure, support the candidate you like best. But when the time comes, don’t help BHO stay in office.

    Even if you want to hold your breath until you turn blue.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  295. I’m not voting for Mittens McCain he can suck it

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  296. haters gotta hate
    and the suckers gotta suck
    color me non-plussed

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)

  297. Apparently Christie is having second thoughts and may run for President.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  298. Who will crappyfeet vote for then?

    Colonel dude.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  299. We need to defeat Comrade Barack.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  300. ______________________________________________

    Apparently Christie is having second thoughts and may run for President.

    It’s too bad he hasn’t been governor for a longer period of time — at least more than a fraction of a full term, much less two terms — and hasn’t been so consistent and adamant about saying he didn’t want to run for the White House. So if he changes his mind at the last minute, I fear he’ll end up looking like a typical, all-too-common, double-talking, overly opportunistic, insincere politician.

    Mark (411533)

  301. This AP report makes me think Christie is closer now to running than he’s ever been. The article indicates some big GOP donors and establishment Republicans are encouraging Christie. I assume they’re disenchanted with Perry but this also means they’re leery of Romney, too. In fact, since Christie is arguably more like Romney than Perry, their encouragement of Christie is another way of saying they’re more discouraged by Romney. Since Christie and Romney seem alike on the issues and since Romney is a credible speaker, the concerns must be about Romney’s electability or his religion. Am I right?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  302. DRJ

    If Christie does get in most are saying its time for Romney to pull up stakes, 5 years campaigning for president, and he would not be the front Runner if the jersey boy gets in

    EricPWJohnson (be5331)

  303. Only thing Christie is going to run for is another mixed dozen of those deeeeelicious Krispy Kreme donuts.

    ColonelHaiku (a4b693)


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