Patterico's Pontifications

8/25/2011

Some Other Depictions of Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., In Statue Form

Filed under: General — Aaron Worthing @ 1:55 pm

[Guest post by Aaron Worthing; if you have tips, please send them here.  Or by Twitter @AaronWorthing.]

Since I seemed to spark a real discussion about the National Martin Luther King memorial yesterday, I figured maybe it would inform that debate to look at other depictions of Dr. King.

For starters, UC Davis has named its law school for Dr. King so it shouldn’t surprise you to see that they have a statue of the man.  This is the best photo I could find of it:

This is from the University of Texas:

Actually I like that one best of all of these (and better than the one we are getting in D.C.), because it captures his spiritual nature well.  If you forget that Dr. King was a man of the cloth you ignore half of what he was.  (And that positively harms our discourse when the left pretends it is something new, unique and scary to base our laws on religiously-inspired morality.)

Not such a big fan of this one, though, in Portland.

And while I think this face looks less like him…

…I like the pose and the symbolic inclusion of a book.  But I am not sure where it is (this is all from a google image search).  Also I am not sure where this is from, either:

And am I the only one who hears Seal’s cover of “Fly Like an Eagle” in my head when I see this one?

I mean, let’s compare.  This Seal (via this site) in the video for that song:

And this is Dr. King:

“I want to shoe the children…”

That’s in Omaha, Nebraska.

And this one in Roanoke just leaves me cold.

[pic removed]

So you can see a number of different depictions.  Or perhaps the simplest approach would be something like this:

That is a scene from his “I have a dream speech.”  So take that moment and as best as humanly possible, capture it in stone, and put it right on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial.  Make the photo come to life.

Meanwhile, I heard someone is coming to rescue him from the carbonite but she has been waylaid and this has happened:

So it’s all good.

[Posted and authored by Aaron Worthing.]

123 Responses to “Some Other Depictions of Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., In Statue Form”

  1. Odd that the UC Davis one actually does appear somewhat Oriental, as the new one is accused of being.

    Gesundheit (d7ea47)

  2. UC Davis statue looks like one of the famed terra cotta warriors in China. Very strange.

    elissa (c01b9b)

  3. That is a scene from his “I have a dream speech.” So take that moment and as best as humanly possible, capture it in stone, and put it right on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. Make the photo come to life.

    Actually, done in bronze and say, 125% of his actual size, would be a very cool thing.

    dutchcedar (d8cf3c)

  4. It kind of annoys me that we have to call him “Dr. King” like it’s some sort of sainthood title. Particularly when you consider that he got his doctorate in part by plagiarizing others (first revealed by the Wall Street Journal in 1990 and an official investigation in 1991). Heck, even the climax of the “I have a dream” speech was lifted from Archibald Carey’s speech at the 1952 Republican national convention.

    Shouldn’t we at least have wait until the FBI wiretap info gets released in 2027 before we decide to drool all over this guy?

    Chris (5fc583)

  5. This is a very interesting post, Aaron.

    I think the fifth photo from the top is an MLK statue in Milwaukee, WI. The Milwaukee statue and the statue in the photo above it — both of which show MLK holding a book — resemble this proposed model by Wendy L. Ross submitted in the 1997 University of Texas competition. (Click on “The Proposed Models [Maquettes]” and then “Wendy L. Ross” in the left sidebar.) In addition, this Denver, Colorado, MLK statue by Ed Dwight was clearly based on Dwight’s proposed model from the same UT-Austin competition.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  6. Chris never misses a chance to get his/her hate on.

    JD (6e25b4)

  7. The UoT statue… now THAT is a nice piece of work. I agree. I’d like to point out that his clothing looks like cloth, his hands and face look animated… you can easily imagine this as a still frame from a video. It’s excellent.

    I like the fourth photo down as well.

    Your 8th photo down though… dood… you’ve been caught hotlinking. Heh.

    Book (c7b6c5)

  8. The troll is best ignored.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  9. “Chris never misses a chance to get his/her hate on.”

    JD obviously can’t handle ‘hate facts’.

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  10. Book,
    I enjoyed your earlier comments, as well as this one. Nicely expressed. I don’t have the taste or training to express this but I felt as you do on most of the things you said about the memorial statue.

    Thank you.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  11. Chris and Stari sitting in a tree, h-a-t-i-n-g. First comes the pillowcase, then comes the starched bed sheet. Then come the cross burning with lots of heat.

    JD (0d2ffc)

  12. Book

    I will flog myself accordingly for the sin of h[o]t linking…

    Heh.

    [Corrected after the fact. –Aaron]

    Aaron Worthing (85b089)

  13. MLK — the ‘Doctor’ who plagiarized, the preacher who womanized.

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  14. Let he who is without sin……….

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  15. We would have a convention of mimes.

    Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (8ef02d)

  16. If he is put forward for Sainthood or as the spiritual symbol of our nation I will have to sadly turn away, but whatever his faults he served this nation courageously and helped end a shameful blight on our national history. I feel a debt of gratitude for that and am fine with a memorial honoring him for his service and sacrifice.

    What civilian in the last 200 years, not holding office, has done more for this country’s national conscience and honor?

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  17. Machinist – algore? Michael Moore? Keith Olberman? Garafalo?

    JD (b98cae)

  18. JD, some of the trolls may well believe that, or say they do. I just threw up a little in my mouth.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  19. I’m having some trouble bringing up quotes because it seems to be interpreted as spam. Just type in google in quotes “I’m not a negro tonight!” and have fun.

    Chris (b0fa47)

  20. I think you’ll find the real ‘blights’ in places like Detroit, Newark, Camden, Clayton County GA, etc, etc etc. Or perhaps King’s legacy can be found in the 70% of African-American children that are born out of wedlock (the rate was 30% before the end of segregation). Maybe segregation was unjust and a ‘blight’ in an abstract sense, especially to the millions of bright and industrious blacks that were in the country. At the same time it is hard not to conclude that white Southern segregationists had a point. Indeed, we now have African-Americans promoting self-segregation (at public cost) — look at the Urban Academy in Chicago.

    And of course Southern whites were also right about black racial solidarity at the polls. Ninety four percent voted for Obama in 2008, and am amazing 80% of African Americans voted for Alvin Greene in the South Carolina Senate race. BTW Greene holds a BA degree from the University of South Carolina — one wonders if the university’s standards were that low when the University was segregated.

    Finally, blacks were free to leave the segregated South long before King came along, and millions did (mostly for economic rather than social reasons). So he really didn’t even win anyone’s “freedom”. In fact, the so-called Civil Rights movement took away a lot of individuals’ freedom, including the freedom to hire who you want, rent to who you want, and serve who you want.

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  21. Chris

    Maybe Martin Luther King did not do the academic things one should do to earn a doctorate. But I think in life he more than demonstrated an advanced knowledge of Christian theology.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  22. Aaron please check my #20 and spend a minute or two exploring how much King took Christian theology seriously in his personal life.

    Chris (b0fa47)

  23. Thank you for the Klan perspective. I think you will find it was not desegregation that led to the ills you reference but the War on Poverty, AKA the Democrat’s revenge.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  24. But King was pushing ‘the War on Poverty’ when he was murdered. And the politicians that blacks themselves elect certainly support TANF, SNAP, Section 8, and of course the discrimination against white people known as ‘Affirmative Action” (or ‘Diversity’)

    But hey, it’s “Free to swipe your EBT”. Maybe this isn’t what King had in mind, but I bet that the more intelligent advocates of segregation did.
    [bad language, not safe for work]

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzspsovNvII&feature=player_embedded

    Finally, I want to make it clear that I am not advocating a return to segregation. I imagine had I been alive at the time I probably would have been swept up in the whole ‘Civil Rights’ thing too. But as I get older and learn more (and as we have the benefit of 50 years of hindsight) I can see that everything was not, and is not, good and evil, black and white.

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  25. i like the omaha one best he looks like he’s about to tell those stupid bigots a thing or two about a thing or two

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  26. I was around then and heard the arguments from each side.

    You are not calling for the return of segregation but just saying how much better things were when it was legal, especially for the blacks who needed white master to look after them.

    This thread stinks. Possibly it has one too many a$$holes with two trolls active. Good night.

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  27. Boston University’s “Free at Last” sculpture. King earned his Ph.D. at BU in 1955 and received an honorary degree in 1959.

    koam @wittier (4ec816)

  28. I will flog myself accordingly for the sin of hit linking…

    Heh.

    Comment by Aaron Worthing — 8/25/2011 @ 2:01 pm

    Darn-tootin’!

    Book (c7b6c5)

  29. Chris & stari, remember what Ozzy taught you: “maybe it’s not too late, to learn how to love and forget how to hate.”

    Icy Texan (331b90)

  30. I don’t understand why people here adopt liberal tactics like calling facts that do not conform to the pc narrative as “hate”. Pretty amazing that even “conservatives” fall in line with the pro-king cult of personlity propaganda without question.

    Chris (b0fa47)

  31. Chris

    Sorry, i guess i feel an obligation to support my fellow republican, Dr. King. :-)

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  32. colonel have a dream
    one day little boys and girls
    able to find jobs

    ColonelHaiku (8211ab)

  33. “Finally, I want to make it clear that I am not advocating a return to segregation.”

    stari_momak – Since you are all about avoiding teh mongrelization of races, how is that different from advocating a return to segregation?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  34. “Maybe this isn’t what King had in mind, but I bet that the more intelligent advocates of segregation did.”

    stari – Who were the intelligent advocates of segregation, people like Jimmy Carter and George Wallace?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  35. “I don’t understand why people here adopt liberal tactics like calling facts that do not conform to the pc narrative as “hate”.”

    Chris – You need to point out something specific that you consider to be a fact rather than a matter of opinion to use as an example.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  36. What on earth is he wearing in that sculpture?

    My initial impression was a Chinese court robe, circa 1250 or so, but I’m sure I’m wrong – I’m bad at that sort of thing.

    It’s not Western academic dress, so far as my (limited) knowledge of costume goes.

    Dianna (f12db5)

  37. ______________________________________________

    Sorry, i guess i feel an obligation to support my fellow republican, Dr. King.

    It’s fascinating how contradictory and un-predictable human nature and US history can be.

    I recall reading David McCullough’s biography of Harry Truman, who generally was of the left and quite literate and more or less civilized. But, nonetheless, he wrote some of the most virulent, racist, bigoted things imaginable during his earlier years. Comments that would have made even “white-trash rednecks” in hard-bitten trailer parks throughout America blush.

    I once theorized that the political characteristics of the US when MLK was alive, per below, was due primarily to the odd-bedfellows nature of the party of Abraham Lincoln, etc. And that the nature of America after the era of Lincoln therefore had shattered the lines between leftists, centrists and rightists, right up to and beyond pre-1960s America.

    But when I see studies that indicate liberals are actually less generous and compassionate than conservatives, and surveys out of the University of Chicago that reveal people who favor smaller government are less likely to ascribe inferior qualities to black America, I’d say assumptions about this society pre- and post-Civil War, pre- and post-civil-rights, have to shoot past temporary political trends and go straight to the core of human nature.

    IOW, some modern-day liberals may scoff that Democrats of the past — certainly of the post-Civil-War South — were rightwingers who just happened to cling to the Democrat Party because of their contempt for Lincoln. Or that liberals/Democrats of today — certainly those that are black Americans — would have been Republicans in the past out of desperation and necessity. But that ignores the dynamics of human nature, then and now.

    Humanevents.com, Frances Rice, 08/16/2006

    It should come as no surprise that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a Republican. In that era, almost all black Americans were Republicans. Why? From its founding in 1854 as the anti-slavery party until today, the Republican Party has championed freedom and civil rights for blacks. And as one pundit so succinctly stated, the Democrat Party is as it always has been, the party of the four S’s: slavery, secession, segregation and now socialism.

    It was the Democrats who fought to keep blacks in slavery and passed the discriminatory Black Codes and Jim Crow laws. The Democrats started the Ku Klux Klan to lynch and terrorize blacks. The Democrats fought to prevent the passage of every civil rights law beginning with the civil rights laws of the 1860s, and continuing with the civil rights laws of the 1950s and 1960s.

    During the civil rights era of the 1960s, Dr. King was fighting the Democrats who stood in the school house doors, turned skin-burning fire hoses on blacks and let loose vicious dogs. It was Republican President Dwight Eisenhower who pushed to pass the Civil Rights Act of 1957 and sent troops to Arkansas to desegregate schools.

    Much is made of Democrat President Harry Truman’s issuing an Executive Order in 1948 to desegregate the military. Not mentioned is the fact that it was Eisenhower who actually took action to effectively end segregation in the military.

    Democrat President John F. Kennedy is lauded as a proponent of civil rights. However, Kennedy voted against the 1957 Civil Rights Act while he was a senator, as did Democrat Sen. Al Gore Sr. And after he became President, Kennedy was opposed to the 1963 March on Washington by Dr. King that was organized by A. Phillip Randolph, who was a black Republican. President Kennedy, through his brother Atty. Gen. Robert Kennedy, had Dr. King wiretapped and investigated by the FBI on suspicion of being a Communist in order to undermine Dr. King.

    Given the circumstances of that era, it is understandable why Dr. King was a Republican. It was the Republicans who fought to free blacks from slavery and amended the Constitution to grant blacks freedom (13th Amendment), citizenship (14th Amendment) and the right to vote (15th Amendment). Republicans passed the civil rights laws of the 1860s, including the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Reconstruction Act of 1867 that was designed to establish a new government system in the Democrat-controlled South, one that was fair to blacks.

    Republicans also started the NAACP and affirmative action with Republican President Richard Nixon’s 1969 Philadelphia Plan (crafted by black Republican Art Fletcher) that set the nation’s fist goals and timetables. Although affirmative action now has been turned by the Democrats into an unfair quota system, affirmative action was begun by Nixon to counter the harm caused to blacks when Democrat President Woodrow Wilson in 1912 kicked all of the blacks out of federal government jobs.

    Unknown also is the fact that Republican Sen. Everett Dirksen from Illinois was key to the passage of civil rights legislation in 1957, 1960, 1964 and 1965. Not mentioned in recent media stories about extension of the 1965 Voting Rights Act is the fact that Dirksen wrote the language for the bill.

    Critics of Republican Sen. Barry Goldwater, who ran for President against Johnson in 1964, ignore the fact that Goldwater wanted to force the Democrats in the South to stop passing discriminatory laws and thus end the need to continuously enact federal civil rights legislation.

    Those who wrongly criticize Goldwater also ignore the fact that Johnson, in his 4,500 State of the Union Address delivered on Jan. 4, 1965, mentioned scores of topics for federal action, but only 35 words were devoted to civil rights. He did not mention one word about voting rights. Then in 1967, showing his anger with Dr. King’s protest against the Vietnam War, Johnson referred to Dr. King as “that Nigger preacher.”

    Democrats have been running our inner-cities for the past 30 to 40 years, and blacks are still complaining about the same problems. More than $7 trillion dollars have been spent on poverty programs since Lyndon Johnson’s War on Poverty with little, if any, impact on poverty.

    [note: fished from spam filter. –Stashiu]

    Mark (411533)

  38. _____________________________________________

    Actually I like that one best of all of these (and better than the one we are getting in D.C.),

    Most of those statues are pretty mediocre. The one at UC Davis makes King look like he’s wearing the garb of a Mandarin emperor. Quite ironic in light of the new sculpture in DC having been carved by a artist from the PRC.

    If the sculptor of the statue at the University of Texas or the one who did the figure of King that shows his right hand upraised and his left hand carrying a book is still alive and accepting commissions, then why weren’t artists like that chosen instead of the guy from China?

    The ironies and peculiarities of such things — in America 2011 — make my head spin.

    Mark (411533)

  39. According to http://daviswiki.org/King_Hall the UC Davis statue is “a life-size terra cotta sculpture of Dr. King mid-stride, wearing a clerical robe depicting carved illustrations of the civil rights movement”. I wish I could find some detail of the “carved illustrations”. I think it would be interesting to know what was depicted.

    Sue (40062f)

  40. Daleyrock, you need to reread my posts #5 and 20. It is a fact king plagiarized, and it is a fact that he used sclc funds to have drunken sex orgies with white women in which he screamed statements like “I’m f**king for god!” and “I’m not a Negro tonight!” King spent his final night having sex with two white women and beating up another one. Pardon me for questioning why this gigantic immoral and fraudulent hypocrite should deface our nations capital with a monument they couldn’t even build right.

    Chris (b0fa47)

  41. “Daleyrock, you need to reread my posts #5 and 20.”

    Chris – Your #20 does not contain anything. Your #5 makes statements but contains nothing to verify your allegations. Please provide links.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  42. “Intelligent segregationists”

    Senators Fulbright and Ervin
    Senator Goldwater, while not a supporter of segregation, was an opponent of the ‘Civil Rights’ bill and its extension of Federal power into the businesses and homes (if, say, you rent out of room)of every American.

    But my favorite guy is James J. Kilpatrick

    http://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2010/08/support-for-segregation-as-a-youthful-indiscretion.html

    Most of his argument is constitutional, but here he gets to the rub — part of it, there is quite a bit more:

    There are reasons for this separation. The experience of generations has demonstrated that in the South (whatever may be true of the Negro in urban areas of the North and West) the Negro race, as a race, has palpably different social, moral, and behavioral standards from those which obtain among the white race. After generations of rising income, better housing, expanded education, improved communications—after years of exposure to the amenities of civilization from which the Negro might profit by example —one out of every five Negro children in the South today is the product of illicit sexual union. The rate of Negro illegitimacy, indeed, is not improving: It grows worse. That necessary program of the professional welfare worker, styled “aid to dependent children,” is very largely aid to Negro bastardy.

    http://sovereignstates.org/books/The_Sovereign_States/SovStates_IV.html#IVsect4

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  43. “Since you are all about avoiding teh mongrelization of races,”

    Really? When have I said that here, or anywhere? I do think that a father (or mother) has the right to tell his daughter or son that he would like them to marry within their race or ethnicity or whatever — just like Elliot Abrams or Tevya from Fiddler on the Roof.

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  44. “Really? When have I said that here, or anywhere?”

    stari_momak – Really? You are denying it? Seriously?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  45. Oh, dear.

    Really, why on earth does a discussion of modern sculpture and its peculiarities degenerate into some people advocating…well, I’m not entirely sure what is being advocated, except that I’m entirely uncomfortable with the direction.

    Could we remember that there really isn’t any such thing as “race”? There are characteristics of various regions, but frankly, there’s less variation among humans than is to be found in dogs, to go by our DNA.

    Get a grip, folks.

    Dianna (f12db5)

  46. Don’t you all get it? Chris and stari are no haters based on ignorance!

    They are haters based on faux intellectualism. Get it straight!

    Icy Texan (331b90)

  47. ____________________________________________

    The rate of Negro illegitimacy, indeed, is not improving: It grows worse.

    I recall reading several years ago that the rate of illegitimacy in Scandinavian societies had actually started to equal or even surpass what’s found in lower-income, inner-city America.

    One thing that both northern Europe and the black community in America have in common is a high percentage of people who embrace liberal (if not-ultra-liberal) politics, politicians and policies. However, there is more dysfunction in black America than in nations like Denmark or Sweden, so ideology is just one part of the puzzle. But I’d say it’s a huge piece of that puzzle since the notorious statistics of black America in the later half of the 20th century and today didn’t exist back when American society — the African-American sector included — was tilted to the right, culturally and politically.

    Mark (411533)

  48. “Really? You are denying it? Seriously?”

    Seriously, show me anything I’ve written on ‘avoiding mongrelization’.

    “I recall reading several years ago that the rate of illegitimacy in Scandinavian societies had actually started to equal or even surpass what’s found in lower-income, inner-city America.”

    At the risk of being accused of moving the goalposts, the pattern in Northern Europe seems to be that long term couples have children, then get a civil or religious wedding. The male tends to be present in the home with or without the ‘paper’. I don’t believe this is the case so much in the black community. However, there is the phenomenon of the father being in the neighborhood, seeing the child from time to time. Nevertheless I think Kilpatrick was right in the essentials.

    “genetic variance”

    Highly technical subject, but I’ve read that humans have, at least, half the variance between identifiable population groups as dogs have. Well, that is still quite a lot — think half the variance between a chihuahua and a border collie, or a German Shepard and a Golden Retriever.

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  49. “Seriously, show me anything I’ve written on ‘avoiding mongrelization’.”

    stari_momak – Really no need given your continual advocacy of separate societies by ethnicity, especially so your’s does not become dominated by others.

    You’ve made your own bed here. Lie in it.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  50. I don’t know why I can’t post my link, but in today’s New York TImes Cornell West shows us what King really was really all about and what he really wanted–more socialist, anti-American policies, “revolution” and supporting people like Bernie Sanders.

    Chris (5fc583)

  51. I don’t know why I can’t post my link…
    Comment by Chris — 8/26/2011 @ 5:50 am

    Your comments that contain links keep going to spam for some reason. I haven’t looked to see why. Someone else can fish them out if they wish. I don’t enable racists.

    Stashiu3 (601b7d)

  52. stari stari Scheiße
    Gehirn funktioniert nicht komm her
    und leck mich am Arsch

    ColonelHaiku (8211ab)

  53. “Really no need given your continual advocacy of separate societies by ethnicity, especially so your’s does not become dominated by others.”

    So in other words, all your little Googling couldn’t find anything about “mongrelization”. Thanks for playing!

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  54. stari_momak – Your record here has been clear. I don’t think this is a road you want to go down.

    Multi-ethnic societies are not pretty, especially for shrinking, formerly ‘privileged’ dominant groups. Just look at ex-Yugoslavia.

    Comment by stari_momak — 5/26/2011 @ 9:48 am

    Texan, I reject your characterization of me as ‘racist’. Racialist, maybe, in that I recognize that their are average differences between races in things beyond the merely superficial (not that the superficial stuff isn’t important too — I like blondes and tow-headed kids and want both groups to continue to exist). A racist wants to dominate or harm those of another race, I merely don’t want to see my race dominated — which it currently is.

    However, even if I accepted the ‘racist’ label, it doesn’t follow that I would join the KKK. All Kluxers may be ‘racists’ — actually many are merely separatists — but not all ‘racists’ are Kluxers.

    Comment by stari_momak — 5/20/2011 @ 3:14 pm

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  55. Things to remember:
    1. Self-admitted trolls undermine everything they say afterwards.
    2. I don’t like racist propaganda, no matter who spouts it or against which group.
    3. It’s not about equality, it’s about racial separation.
    4. If this isn’t a description of mongrelization, what is it?

    Stashiu3 (601b7d)

  56. Stashiu3, I am sorry that you have to take out the trash in this thread. I’m not sure if these characters genuinely believe this stuff, or are playing silly lulz games. Either way, it’s very distasteful.

    I appreciate what you do to keep the threads a bit more…sanitary…than they would be otherwise.

    Simon Jester (d6a334)

  57. They’re believers.

    Stashiu3 (601b7d)

  58. Stashiu3 – It is very funny to see stari attempt to deny the substance of what he has said here.

    “see, you are basing that question on a myth. they restrict immigration from palestine, but not based on religion generally.”

    No, I am trying to suss you out on which groups have a right to exist and which don’t. Apparently you don’t think that whites in North America have a right to continue as an identifiable group — which I think we are, which the Founding Fathers and most of our political leaders down to JFK thought we were– and to mobilize in our political interests. If fact, you seem to think we don’t have any interests, perhaps maybe we don’t even exist. That’s a pretty conventional leftist position — search for Critical Whiteness Studies, or Noel Ignatiev.

    On the other hand, you think that Jews do have a right to exist in their own ethnostate, and to lobby here with groups like AIPAC, the JDL, etc, and to encourage marriage amongst their own group (JDate, Elliot Abrams jihad against intermarriage -even if the non-Jewish partner convert! see here

    http://www.slate.com/id/3660/entry/23966

    For Israel’s effective ban on interethnic/interreligious marriage see here

    http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/more-on-israels-bar-on-intermarriage.html

    Again, I don’t care what the Israeli’s do, just trying to figure out why one group has the privilege of existing, and my group doesn’t.

    Comment by stari_momak — 3/17/2011 @ 10:52 am

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  59. “They’re believers.”

    Agreed.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  60. Daileyrock, for some reason I’ve been having problems posting links on this site, because it keeps getting blocked. However, a brief two minute google search on your part will quickly validate everything that I said.

    My information comes from Newsweek, Salon, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and books published by people close to or those who have done research on King. Hardly typical “hate” sites. The facts do not become invalid simply because “hate” sites use said facts to advance their agenda.

    M. Ghadaffi (5fc583)

  61. Crap, I forgot to drop the sock on 61. Sorry.

    Chris (5fc583)

  62. Once again, nothing I have said says anything about ‘mongrelization’. The closest you can come is ‘I like tow-headed kids and want them to continue to exist’. Well, there are Brazilian tow-heads of mixed race (though obviously mostly white).

    This is a typical rhetorical ploy, to put loaded words into the mouths of others.

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  63. Another typical rhetorical ploy is to avoid saying what you mean directly in order to deny having ever said it. Unfortunately for you, piecing together your statements reveals a pattern of speech that makes your meaning perfectly clear.

    Seriously, go on back to stormfront where you’re welcome.

    Stashiu3 (601b7d)

  64. BTW all those links above are about group differences in IQ — again nothing about ‘mongrelization’, not even even if we use the older Southern term, ‘amalgamation’. You just won’t find me writing about that.

    But let’s turn it around. Do you all think it would be a good thing if, say, Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland let in 50 million non-Nordic immigrants? Would that not change the character of those societies and the ‘look’ of the population? If you think it would be good, why?

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  65. Stahiu3 — the mind reader.

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  66. Doesn’t take mind-reading. When nearly every comment a person makes has something negative about blacks and/or jews, it’s not a difficult task to reach accurate conclusions about them.

    You and Chris can both fuck off.

    Stashiu3 (601b7d)

  67. If only!

    Machinist (b6f7da)

  68. Amen, stash. Is that kilgore trout?

    Paul Azinger (604536)

  69. What did I say negative about Jews? I said Israel restricts immigration to Jews, or mostly to Jews. Many of their prominent politicians have called for a population policy that preserves at least 80% Jewish population in the country. That’s a fact. It is also a fact that Elliot Abrams opposes intermarriage — which means he de facto opposes interracial marriage, as like 99.99% of Jews out there are white. Mr. Abrams has every right in the world to take that position without moral condemnation or approbation.

    If I said that from sporting results, it appears that sub-saharan Africans (i.e. blacks) are better at running (on average) than caucasians, that too is a fact, or a hypothesis with considerable evidence behind it.

    I will be rooting for Christophe Le Maitre in the 100 meters next world championships, though. And Jeremy Wariner. Even though I know that makes me an awful person.

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  70. I thought conservatives were all about challenging the liberal MSM narrative, not mindlessly embracing it.

    “Racist” is just another word for openly commenting on the realities of racial differences. Everyone was racist until marxists decreed that race does not exist.

    Chris (5fc583)

  71. I thought conservatives were all about challenging the liberal MSM narrative, not mindlessly embracing it.

    This is not a rational argument. People who really think for themselves are not beholden to any propaganda, nor are the beholden to believing the opposite of the left 100% of the time. Most democrats think it’s wrong to beat puppies, and they are correct.

    Race is a stupid thing to concern yourself with, and only ignorant people who have no exposure to the public, sometimes because they have walled their minds off to their experiences, still think that way.

    There is an entire slew of traits scattered across the races, and if you’re relying on race you’re an idiot. Plenty of black folks who have fifty IQ points on you, Chris.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  72. Comment by Chris — 8/26/2011 @ 11:52 am

    Sometimes “Racist” is actually a word to described bigoted assholes. The rest of your comment is BS as well.

    Stashiu3 (601b7d)

  73. Yes, that Chris is whining about being considered racist after repeatedly explaining why it’s right to be racist is just another clue as to what’s wrong with him.

    He’s racist because he is a pathetic person. He clings to his skin pigment as though he’s accomplished something. He can’t take the most polite rebuttal a racist will get in this world.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  74. Dustin

    You’re hitting the nail on the head when you say this.

    > There is an entire slew of traits scattered across the races, and if you’re relying on race you’re an idiot.

    I mean let’s suppose for the sake of argument that black people were less intelligent than white people. I don’t believe it to be the case, but let’s play pretend.

    Does that still follow that every white person is smarter than every black person? A retarded white guy is smarter than Frederick Douglass or Martin Luther King? really? Or would a person like Chris admit that it is still accurate to say that some black people are still smarter than some white people.

    So if you are trying to hire the smartest, it still means that race is an illogical proxy for intelligence.

    That is, if you make those assumptions that i do not share.

    and the fact is that there is no good reason to think that intelligence and race have anything to do with each other. seriously why would the pigmentation gene have anything to do with the brain gene?

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  75. Does anyone else notice that the ML King statue in Washington looks remarkably like the Sphinx?
    http://moneyrunner.blogspot.com/2011/08/king-and-sphinx.html

    Moneyrunner (53e425)

  76. I have never denied that there are intelligent blacks so that argument is pure strawman. The central problem is that there can be no real equality between the races because on average whites are more intelligent and more willing to defer gratification than blacks and Hispanics while asians and ashkenazi Jews are more intelligent and more willing to defer gratification than whites. Presently ANY disparate outcomes between whites and blacks are assumed to be due solely to “racism” while the media covers up innate differences.

    Chris (b0fa47)

  77. Exactly, Aaron. Even if you accept Chris or Stari’s flawed statistics, cherry picked so transparently for one reason, that doesn’t mean race is useful information about a person.

    It really isn’t. Whether you’re trying to pick a basketball player or a lawyer, race is a stupid thing to look at. Those who fixate on it are doing so to compensate for their flaws.

    I have never met an intelligent racist. Anyone can dig up some Al Gore sr or Robert Byrd commentary… they are idiots.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  78. What did I miss?

    Nothing it looks like, stari denying he used the word “mongrelization”? So what? He conveys the substance of the idea through his comments and cannot deny it.

    Chris’ claims about MLK? Plagiarism has been proved. Claims about poaching 1952 speech are wildly overblown. There is no proof to any allegations about adultery with white women. Communists? There were former communists in the SCLC. Nobody has presented any proof of payments by communist party to King or the SCLC of which I am aware.

    Chris, like stari, is a flat out racist. He just repeats rumors he finds on the internet.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  79. dustin

    > I have never met an intelligent racist.

    Ah, well, um… my grandparents were not dummies, you know.

    I would say this, instead. Racism is dumb, but some otherwise smart people buy into it, both past and present.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  80. I do not understand why Chris and stari object to being called racists for speaking what they perceive to be the truth.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  81. Some of you guys are pretty funny.

    It’s like “We have all these facts & nice thoughts on the conservative side and those black people just don’t listen to us.”

    They aren’t dumb, you know, and they can read. Maybe what you’re saying to them hoping to get them to come over to your side is so outrageously wrong that they have no intention of listening to you.

    Telling them that 50 years ago it was the noble Republicans who did great things does nothing because they (like most people) don’t think it’s labels that accomplish anything. They look at what’s going on, now, and they see that the Republicans don’t actually do anything constructive for them except grant endless “tax cuts” for businesses that don’t hire them, propose endless cuts to programs that they see daily, and grant endless loop holes and tax breaks to huge uncaring corporations. They see three pointless wars consuming endless resources and chewing up good American men and women and they think, “Why throw away all that money? Why not do something over here for the people who live here?”

    You don’t have to agree that they’re right or wrong about their opinions. I’m just trying to tell you a little of how the other side thinks. (You really need to pay attention to that – how they think.)

    If you want to get them to listen to you, you need to spend some time – a lot of time – listening to them, and maybe start to think of ways to incorporate “conservatism” with an awareness of what it means to be black in America.

    Because, you know, they don’t need to do anything to get your approval to be real Americans. They already are, and have been since the late 1500s.

    So maybe you could acknowledge that the magic wand of desegregation and Lyndon Johnson’s actions (which were truly quite amazing) haven’t brought the promised land, and a lot of people in America, Americans, are still shut out from full participation and enjoyment that you seem to take for granted.

    Maybe they don’t like your brand because it has come to mean ignoring them and leaving them by the side of the road and infantilizing them. The Democrats might not be treating them so well, but you are smoking something banned by federal law if you think there is any way that the Republicans do a better job. I have to say, Seriously. What are you thinking? It’s the Republican party that’s talking about getting around the 14th amendment vis-a-vis birth citizenship. As if you don’t have 36 million Americans who are mighty sensitive to such a change.

    It’s as if you think those people will come to you and learn your ways. Maybe they don’t find your ways all that appealing.

    And when you make your remarks on how the Dixiecrats opposed the civil rights movement, you are right that they were Democrats. But now they are Republicans. Yeah, Robert Byrd was a former Kleagel or whatever. Bad news. But a ton of former Democrats switched to Republicans, and coincidentally they were the ones least attractive to the black citizens.

    You might just have to come to a place where you realize that what the Republican party is today is where the Whig party was in 1850 – holding interesting positions that were completely unwanted by the dynamic new age.

    You want to spend some time spitting on Dr. King, go ahead. He’s dead, and past any hurt.

    But it just goes to show how little you understand the significance of a preacher who tried to live out what everyone says they’re supposed to do: loving his fellow man, turning the other cheek, and seeking justice.

    Maybe he did the wrong thing in thinking that what we all hear on Sunday mornings should apply to what we do on Monday mornings.

    If that was wrong, confront that. And confront what you’re doing about injustice as well. 101st Keyboard Regiment doesn’t seem to be out in the streets. Lots of words on blogs. Lots of yelling.

    Saying he was a man of low repute doesn’t do what you think, though, because it makes what he accomplished that much more significant. If he was some great saint, then it wasn’t that hard to do what he did. But he was a complex, broken, hypocritical, selfish, loving, trusting man. Just like anyone else.

    The magic was that he did something, and people followed.

    Really, the more you try to take away from a common man like Dr. King, the smaller it makes you look.

    steve miller (c664f7)

  82. Okay Chris and stari, let’s accept your hypothesis that whites have a higher average IQ than blacks.

    The reason why whites & blacks cannot live together in peace & harmony is What?

    Icy Texan (534223)

  83. Answer the stinkin question Christard.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  84. Hey Steve Miller, to whom does “some of you” refer?

    Icy Texan (534223)

  85. How about the fact that blacks commit about half the murders in this country for starters. Then maybe we can move on to the fact that the entire black race is trained at birth to hate and resent all aspects of whitey by their liberal enablers, while whites are constantly attacked for their rational reactions to the behavior of blacks.

    Chris (b0fa47)

  86. ^^^^^ Sieg heil! Sieg heil! ^^^^^

    Icy Texan (534223)

  87. Aaron is making a good faith argument. I accept most of his arguments on an individual level, but we don’t live as individuals. There are rejoinders to other of his points, but as this thread has gotten way away from MLK, I won’t answer here

    Except to say, darn it, race is much more than pigmentation. Take a look, for example, at the albino Jamaican reggae DJ Yellowman. He is recognizably ‘black’ even though he is…yellow!

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  88. Oh, here’s the link to Yellowman.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko46_aXW_94

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  89. Chris,

    Yet there are many black conservative intellectuals. And many people — myself included — have black neighbors and friends who think and act like me and our white, brown, etc., neighbors. How do you explain that?

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  90. Shorter steve miller – RACISTS!!!!!eleventy!!!

    JD (109425)

  91. “Yet there are many black conservative intellectuals”

    Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell, maybe Condaleeza Rice, and then?

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  92. stari:

    Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell, maybe Condaleeza [sic] Rice, and then?

    Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, the Hoover Institute’s Shelby Steele, Florida Congressman Allen West, Texas RR Commissioner Michael Williams, and the national leadership network at Project 21.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  93. The fact is that 90% of blacks have voted as a block for the Democrats in every election since 1964. Even relatively successful blacks still stick with liberalism. Black conservatives are an tiny minority with a minority, seen as race traitors and Uncle Toms by the black community.

    Chris (b0fa47)

  94. Wow, my bad, I don’t know how I could have overlooked a black conservative Texas RR commissioner.

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  95. Chris – Your claim can be explained by other causes. In addition, my community is conservative and many blacks who live here share our community’s conservative values. Your theory doesn’t explain them.

    Stari – I know you’re being sarcastic but it reflects poorly on you, not me. In addition, there are certainly other black conservatives in many communities that neither one of us have heard of.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  96. That’s right, Chris. Patronizing behavior by white liberals towards blacks has resulted in a disproportionate political affiliation. Therefore, ALL of us should be encouraging black voters to move beyond the state of perpetual victimhood encouraged by the left.

    Icy Texan (534223)

  97. Well said, Icy.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  98. DRJ – Don’t hold it against Chris and stari if they don’t know any black people. They like it that way.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  99. Didn’t mean to disrespect your family, Aaron.

    I’d say in today’s world, especially in the USA where so many peoples are available to befriend, it’s very hard for an intelligent person to be racist. You practically are forced to interact with smart and honorable people of all sorts of varieties.

    If I knew a racist kid, I’d suggest he pull a stint in the Army, the ultimate melting pot.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  100. stari racist fool
    Colonel must go to dinner
    but hey, Shelby Steele

    and there’s many more, mein reinermacher frau.

    ColonelHaiku (8211ab)

  101. “If I knew a racist kid, I’d suggest he pull a stint in the Army, the ultimate melting pot.”

    LOL. I was in the service, and unless things have changed radically over the last seven years, the white guys still hang with the white guys after work, blacks with blacks, etc. So much so that there are usually clubs specializing in one or other ethnic group outside bases.

    Also, you might want to look at who the elite forces are — still overwhelmingly white. Of the Navy Seals killed recently, one might be hispanic or Asian, the rest are white. In my NEC, an intelligence field, we were also overwhelmingly white.

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  102. Therefore, ALL of us should be encouraging black voters to move beyond the state of perpetual victimhood encouraged by the left.

    The problem is that blacks would much rather see themselves as victims of whitey than admit their own flaws. This is particularly true in the PC environment.

    If I knew a racist kid, I’d suggest he pull a stint in the Army, the ultimate melting pot.

    Funny you mention that, you have to pass a de facto intelligence test (the armed forces qualification test)to get into the army. THose with an IQ below 92 don’t get in. Most blacks are thus excluded from the military.

    Chris (b0fa47)

  103. Most blacks are thus excluded from the military.

    Lie

    Racist

    JD (318f81)

  104. Hmmm, I thought that ‘disqualification thing” would be interesting to look into, and it turns out that most *whites* are disqualified from entering the military, and whites are the most ‘qualifiable’ group.

    Interesting side note, taking all the requirements together (lack of convictions, AFQT scores, GED or Diploma, BMI standards), the Marines are the *least* stringent service.
    ====
    Analysis of the NLSY data reveals that a relatively small percentage of youth, regardless of
    race or ethnicity, would qualify for military enlistment. Figures S.1 and S.2 show the cumula-
    tive effect of key enlistment standards in the areas of education (high school diploma or Gen-
    eral Education Degree), aptitude (Armed Forces Qualification Test score, [AFQT]), weight,
    number of dependents, convictions, and drug-related offenses. Results are shown by race/
    ethnicity for males and females, respectively, by service. Only 46 percent of white males, 32
    percent of black males, and 35 percent of Hispanic males would be eligible to enlist in the
    Marine Corps, the service with the cumulatively least stringent enlistment standards. For
    females, the corresponding figures are even lower: 35 percent for white females, 22 percent for
    black females, and 24 percent for Hispanic females.
    ====
    http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monographs/2009/RAND_MG773.sum.pdf

    see page xvii and xviii for graphical illustration

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  105. Reading the fine print, that data is pretty old — from 1997. Be interesting to see how it has changed.

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  106. Chris & stari, it’s late and I’m getting tired. Can you just call yourselves ‘idiots’ and turn off the lights on your way out?

    Icy Texan (534223)

  107. chris

    IQ tests? You seem to be failing one right here

    also tuck in your sheet

    EricPWJohnson (e83e82)

  108. ______________________________________________

    They aren’t dumb, you know, and they can read.

    But leftist biases can truly blind people. Moreover, I’ve noticed that many of those suffering from liberal sentiment tend to scapegoat, to believe that problems come from without, not within. A major reason for that is leftist sentiment makes people want to downplay or even disavow the concept of personal responsibility. Plus idealistic, sappy liberal emotions (or that which flourishes in folks when they’re younger and still quite prone to being naive and foolish) make humans less likely to acknowledge or respect the idea of common sense and the reality of tough truths.

    Not helping matters is that many liberals aren’t the best when it comes to observing and understanding human nature, of themselves and others. I’ve seen too many instances when it’s the folks on the left who are judging the good and bad in people and situations in a totally off-the-wall or idiotic way, perhaps even transposing the good and the bad.

    When surveys indicate that 90-plus percent of black America leans left, that is nothing to be proud of or take lightly. Such monolithic thinking and biases in that or any other community is not a healthy thing. Similarly, it wouldn’t be reassuring if a community or society were the opposite extreme of that, or 90-plus percent conservative. And I say that as a rightwinger.

    Mark (411533)

  109. with stari and chris
    odds are good that goods are odd
    both garful narthog

    ColonelHaiku (8211ab)

  110. Then maybe we can move on to the fact that the entire black race is trained at birth to hate and resent all aspects of whitey by their liberal enablers.

    Comment by Chris — 8/26/2011 @ 3:04 pm

    ???

    Gennette (55c21d)

  111. Chris, our side has an array of facts to back up our arguments. No need to engage in hyperbole.

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  112. @ the ‘colonel’

    racist racist shout
    those who would ignore the
    reality of race

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  113. Just be glad he isn’t wearing the hood to match his Robert Byrd Signature Exalted Kleagel apparel.

    Or is he?

    Simon Jester (71c865)

  114. LOL. I was in the service, and unless things have changed radically over the last seven years, the white guys still hang with the white guys after work, blacks with blacks, etc.

    What country’s military?

    How did they manage to segregate squads and platoons like that? Are you claiming you didn’t interact with your unit much when off duty? Sounds about right. There always where one or two weirdos who never were around when we were relaxing at the lake or somebody’s backyard.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  115. ???

    Comment by Gennette — 8/27/2011 @ 12:25 pm

    He doesn’t speak for any of us. I think he’s disgusting.

    Dustin (b2fb78)

  116. It’s hard not to be frustrated when people ignore the realities right in front of them.

    It is a fact that blacks tend to blame whites for all that is wrong in their communities. It is always “the system”, “white man’s greed”, “racist cops”, the “legacy of slavery”, “under investment in poor communities”–basically anything but their own lack of discipline and ability.

    Blacks would not support people like O.J. Simpson, Al Sharpton, and Rev. Wright unless they deeply hated the white race in general and felt themselves to be nothing more than victims.

    How can we get along when one side so deeply hates the other, nearly 50 years after the civil rights movement?

    Chris (b0fa47)

  117. “How can we get along when one side so deeply hates the other, nearly 50 years after the civil rights movement?”

    Chris – Am I correct that according to your version of history, the movement for civil rights and equality stopped dead 50 years ago and that since segregation was outlawed in the 1950s, there were never any issues with it after then?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  118. “Chris, our side has an array of facts to back up our arguments.”

    stari – You mean the “white” side, right?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  119. Unfortunately, Chris, SOME blacks do fall into the category you describe.

    Some. Not all.

    Icy Texan (7cfbf6)

  120. How can we get along when one side so deeply hates the other, nearly 50 years after the civil rights movement?

    There are people that hate on both sides of this issue. I don’t know how to convince either group to change their minds, but I’m pretty sure one thing that won’t work is more hate.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  121. “How did they manage to segregate squads and platoons like that?”

    To be blunt about it, the min. AFQT score for my NEC was pretty high, and then there was the DLAB to get through.

    stari_momak (5fd7ae)

  122. To be blunt about it, the min. AFQT score for my NEC was pretty high, and then there was the DLAB to get through.

    but then, you passed?!?!

    ColonelHaiku (0ab8c6)


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