Racism in the Election (Update: Stalker Fisking Fail!)
[Guest post by Aaron Worthing; if you have tips, please send them here. Or by Twitter @AaronWorthing.]
So first, someone try to explain to me the theory behind the Rick Perry/dark cloud/racism! theory. I mean let’s lay this out. So the left thinks that there are anti-black racists out there who either 1) support Obama, or 2) won’t actually bother to vote against him. So Perry had to allude to Obama’s race, because, I guess they forgot he was black? Is that how the theory works?
I mean let’s talk realistically, here, folks. There is a percentage of white people who just hate black people. I don’t think it’s a very large percentage, but it’s there. So does Rick Perry need to do anything to appeal to them? No, he just has to exist and not be black. So why would he have to even allude to Obama’s skin color to win those people over? He’s already got them sewn up.
Meanwhile, of course, we see this example of real racism in the election:
During a sometimes-raucous session of what’s being called the “For the People” Jobs Initiative tour, a key member of the Congressional Black Caucus told an audience in Detroit Tuesday that the CBC doesn’t put pressure on President Obama because he is loved by black voters. But at the same time, Rep. Maxine Waters said, members of the CBC are becoming increasingly tired and frustrated by Obama’s performance on the issue of jobs. Even as she expressed support for the president, Waters virtually invited the crowd to “unleash us” to pressure Obama for action.
“We don’t put pressure on the president,” Waters told the audience at Wayne County Community College. “Let me tell you why. We don’t put pressure on the president because ya’ll love the president. You love the president. You’re very proud to have a black man — first time in the history of the United States of America. If we go after the president too hard, you’re going after us.”
The problem, Waters said, is that Obama is not paying enough attention to the problems of some black Americans. The unemployment rate for African-Americans nationally is a little over 16 percent, and almost twice that in Detroit. And yet, Waters said, the president is on a jobs-promotion trip through the Midwest that does not include any stops in black communities. “The Congressional Black Caucus loves the president too,” Waters said. “We’re supportive of the president, but we’re getting tired, ya’ll. We’re getting tired. And so, what we want to do is, we want to give the president every opportunity to show what he can do and what he’s prepared to lead on. We want to give him every opportunity, but our people are hurting. The unemployment is unconscionable. We don’t know what the strategy is. We don’t know why on this trip that he’s in the United States now, he’s not in any black community. We don’t know that.”
Does anyone doubt that this is all because of the race of the people involved—black people not holding Obama accountable because he is a black man?
Now, look, I gave most African Americans a mulligan on the last election. I understood that after 400 some odd years of ugliness towards them that they were entitled to believe that the day had finally come where a black man 1) who was qualified to be president 2) might actually win the office. They were obviously right about the second part, and wrong about the first one. But that decision—to believe Obama was more ready for the job than he evidently was—was a deviation from Martin Luther King’s dream. They were judging him not by the content of his character—which demonstrated that he was not ready to be president—but by the color of his skin. It’s wrong, but it’s human.
But just how long is this going to go on? Can’t we all agree that black people are proportionately speaking just as likely as white people to make a good president, but not the idiot presently in the White House?
And at the same time, how is this whole fake dog whistle episode is not racial discrimination? After all, would this be done to a black man?
For instance, as much as liberals are freaking out about Perry’s religion, Obama sat in a racist church for twenty years and the media barely batted an eye. He took the title of one of his books from a racist sermon, and again barely a reaction. Blatant racism—or at least tolerance of blatant racism—was excused from Barack Obama, and yet Perry is defamed with selective editing in order for liberals to claim he is a racist. There can be little doubt that they wouldn’t have tried anything like that with Herman Cain.
Update: By the way, the Rick Perry black cloud thing was so lame that even Jon Stewart didn’t bite. But who did? Erstwhile stalker, Ken Ashford! I’m not going to link to his tripe, because maybe that is giving him what he is really fishing for, but you have to admire the chutzpah in this line:
And even if the fact that Obama had black skin was a FACTOR for SOME black voters, that doesn’t amount to a repudiation of King’s dream.
Well, “repudiation” is perhaps a strong term, which is why I used the term “deviation,” but no amount of twisting and turning can change the fact that those voters were doing precisely what Dr. King told them not to do. But it’s nice to see him endorse the idea that we should judge people by the color of their skin.
And of course he then implicitly embraces the black cloud dog whistle theory:
Here’s the problem with Aaron Worthing (and there are many). The only “blatant racism” he specifically acknowledges seems to exclusively exude from black people (and Worthing apparently has an odd definition of “blatant”). He never seems to see it in white people. And it doesn’t take a genius to figure out why.
This in criticizing a post that specifically acknowledges the existence of white anti-black racism. So here’s your trivia question for the day. Is Ken so deluded he failed to notice that text? Or is he so deluded that he thinks his reader wouldn’t notice his blatant lies about what I said?
[Posted and authored by Aaron Worthing.]
No, I don’t think we can. I think that’s a silly proposition, and an obviously false one. I think the evidence is overwhelming that the proportion of black people who would make good presidents is significantly smaller than the proportion of white people who would make good presidents. And hiding from that fact, pretending that it doesn’t exist, is not a good thing. Equality before the law does not mean people really are equal; all it means is that they must be treated equally, so that those of all races who are better than others can rise to the top, unimpeded by statistical expectations.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/18/2011 @ 9:53 amGood to see you posting regularly again, Aaron.
Dustin, I see your point. Since the population of whites is larger than the population of blacks, statistically the number of qualified whites to be president would be greater than the number of qualified blacks to be president.
It sounds reasonable, but don’t you think it will be taken as racist? After all, the news media won’t even describe the race of the “mobs of youths” attacking people across the US. They won’t even describe the race of the victims.
Tanny O'Haley (12193c) — 8/18/2011 @ 10:14 amThanks!
Wait, what?
But seriously, I understand Milhouse’s point. It’s more of a reflection of society, which hasn’t always been fair.
It can be difficult to describe this without falling into a ‘that’s racist’ pitfall, but I agree with him that equality shouldn’t look at statistics. Treat all with no regard for their race, and we still wind up treating people different because people are very different.
I suspect by now there are many brilliant black Americans will a couple of generations of great education and plenty of moral support and whatever else cultivates a great and wise leader.
And frankly I bet those folks are sensitive about affirmative action.
On the other hand, there’s an epidemic of fatherlessness, and I think we see now that the concept of a nuclear family is indeed essential to this country’s success.
Frankly, my wish for racial politics is that it is soon considered extremely rude to even note someone’s race. Just my view.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 10:23 amAnd just why are we having to listen to Maxine Waters, except on visiting day at some Club Fed.
Mr. Speaker, clean up your House!
Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (52c114) — 8/18/2011 @ 10:27 amArron, your second to last paragraph could profit by a quick edit.
ropelight (9d80b8) — 8/18/2011 @ 10:28 am“There can be little doubt that they wouldn’t have tried anything like that with Herman Cain?”
Aaron – You’re joking, right? Just remember the treatment Michael Steele got in Maryland, oreos, blackface caricatures, Uncle Tom allegations, etc.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/18/2011 @ 10:28 amZOMFGWTFBBQ! RACISTS!
JD (29e1cd) — 8/18/2011 @ 10:29 amAgree w/ Milhouse. Tragically, decades and generations of living on the Dem party plantation and being excused from the normal expectations that “whites” have to meet – i.e. dependence on entitlement & de facto affirmative action programs – have created a monster.
Why do you think we have black mob violence all across the U.S., largely ignored by the Leftist media – targeting not only “whites”, but Hispanics too? Turn the situation around – what if we had the exact same amount of riotous mobs, looters, and violent thugs – all white – assaulting black folks? Can you imagine? Obama would have declared martial law months ago.
They do it because they can. And the race card will be played over & over & over again – by the Obama machine, MSLSD, the NYT, etc. Why? Again, because they can. They care nothing for the truth. Tingles Matthews calling Rick Perry “Bull Connor” was ridiculous – in part because Connor was a …. Democrat. But facts are irrelevant to tribalist divisive Leftists. They’d sooner have massive bloody riots in the streets of America than have a conservative elected President.
As usual, the wonderful Congressman/Lt Col Allen West tells it like it is re the CBC & Maxine Waters:
http://www.therightscoop.com/brutal-west-says-maxine-waters-is-overseeing-21st-century-plantation/
Nothng will ever change until we have a conservative black President – or Vice-President (hoping that West will be it).
Miranda (4104db) — 8/18/2011 @ 10:33 amI nominate Thomas Sowell, with West as Veep (attack dog).
Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (52c114) — 8/18/2011 @ 10:35 amMiranda @ 10:33 am, never forget that Allen West voted in favor of increasing the debt limit. When the chips were down West turned his back on the Conservative principles he campaigned on, and instead supported the GOP establishment leadership’s capitulation to Obama’s unrestrained borrowing and spending.
West may yet redeem himself, but as it stands now he’s damaged goods, untrustworthy, suspect, and on probation.
ropelight (9d80b8) — 8/18/2011 @ 10:47 am“West may yet redeem himself, but as it stands now he’s damaged goods, untrustworthy, suspect, and on probation.”
Complete BS IMHO except for conservative who insist on absolute purity and want to remain in the wilderness for the next 30 years.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/18/2011 @ 10:49 amFreakonomics and countless other studies have shown us time and time again that race is not a signifier of success.
That is to say, a white child in a fatherless home in the inner city has exactly the same chances of success as a black child in a fatherless home in the inner city as a hispanic child in a fatherless home in the inner city.
This reveals that the problem is not the race, but the fatherless home and the inner city.
The problem lies in that more blacks and hispanics proportionally live in fatherless homes in the inner city. Yet we measure by race and we see that race correlates to success.
When the answer is that race correlates to living in the inner city in a fatherless home and that is what correlates to success.
luagha (5cbe06) — 8/18/2011 @ 10:52 amWest has put his life on the line for his country. When push came to shove he proved his devotion.
I do think he’s on probation as a legislator, but that’s OK. He’s in a totally different league from many other folks. I have hope he will learn the ropes of how these scams come together. I’d rather have a patriot who goofs up on his first days than yet another K street selfish politician.
I have faith West will impress us in the coming years.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 10:52 amRopelight, I haven’t forgotten …. I do recall your previous comments re West.
But I am still a West fan. Hope that doesn’t make me a detestable RINO or a globalist …. just kidding! I will try to keep up with his votes in the next months.
I second Drew’s nomination – just love Sowell! He’s got an amazing life story too BTW.
Miranda (4104db) — 8/18/2011 @ 10:56 amAlan West explains his debt ceiling vote . Confirms his goals and that it takes three election cycles to get there. Views debt ceiling result as a victory.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/18/2011 @ 10:58 amNo. The average black IQ is one standard deviation lower than the white IQ (85 vs. 100), for reasons largely related to their origins in an African climate that required less intellectual capacity to survive compared to a cold and icy European climate.
Given that higher intelligence is found at the extreme right of the intelligence bell curve, there are markedly fewer blacks at that level than whites. Even if the population of whites and blacks were equal, there would be five times as many whites with a 115 IQ or greater than blacks because more whites (16%) fall into that category than blacks (3%).
Given their low intelligence and other negative attributes, it is entirely rational for blacks to vote for the party that gives more handouts and get mad when those handouts do not materialize. Of course, right now, they are extremely loath to go against their affirmative action President in White House for racial reasons.
Chris (5fc583) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:01 amSure, rocky, keep turning a blind eye to unsettling evidence of duplicity, after all not every smoke signal indicates impending danger.
But, also keep in mind that false gods can’t be relied upon to lead us out of the wilderness.
I’m not a purist, I’m an optimist with open eyes.
ropelight (9d80b8) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:05 am_______________________________________________
Can’t we all agree that black people are proportionately speaking just as likely as white people to make a good president
Surveys indicate that around 90-plus percent of at least the black electorate is of the left. I recall one poll several years ago that showed George W Bush was viewed favorably by less than 5 percent of black respondents.
Such monolithic sentiment is not a good thing, for any community, racial or otherwise. Throw in various forms of dysfunction that have been roiling black America for decades — including problems involving academics, social attitude and neighborhood safety — and it’s a disastrous combination.
Many of these deficiencies stem from one thing: a mindless, nonsensical, blind embrace of liberalism (including leftist politicians) and a corresponding lack of basic common sense.
Mark (411533) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:09 amThe more Maxine Waters and James Clyburn and Al Sharpton and their ilk play racial politics the more it just falls on deaf ears, IMO. White and Latino and Asian citizens are sick of it, and even in the black community (a phrase I detest) the “my tribe” mentality only goes so far. Then the “oh geez, those guys are really stupid” kicks in and nobody of any race wants to be associated with stupid. The terrific friends and co-workers I have who are AA are for the most part mortified and embarrassed by much of the race baiting and racist gibberish. They just want to live their lives successfully in America without the stain of quotas and lowered criteria and other “help” from the government that suggests they are not quite up to snuff.
elissa (69edf1) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:09 amEff that BS. Where did you pull that from? No reputable study I’ve ever seen supports racial differences in intelligence.
Stashiu3 (601b7d) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:14 amChris, what kind of intelligence are you talking about, anyway?
We don’t need 150 IQ presidents. I suspect there are PLENTY of blacks who are of George W Bush and Obama 125-135 IQ levels.
The problem is cultural and artificial rather than genetic.
This is historically ignorant. You’re defining a race based on 1960s to today while ignoring the rest of time.
But this is also pointless. No one is suggesting we vote for ‘average X race’ for president.
So look at individuals.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:17 amHe is probably wrong on the facts, but whatever study he’s referring to, combined with his logic, probably suggests we elect Asians. Isn’t that the stereotype?
You’re right that such studies are extremely unreliable and generally disreputable. But it’s irrelevant anyway. Anyone who thinks there aren’t a lot of blacks in the IQ range of typical presidents is a freaking idiot themselves.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:19 am_________________________________________________
Given that higher intelligence is found at the extreme right of the intelligence bell curve
But there are a lot of dumb people in, for example, academia who are statistically rather gifted in the area of IQ. Nonetheless, they’re almost defective when it comes to where their biases lead them. They’re enthralled by the belief that liberal sentiment makes a person generous, sophisticated, wonderful and humane.
Any community in America, black or otherwise, doesn’t need higher IQ. It needs fewer idiotic left-leaning emotions. And that statement applies to modern Western society in general.
Mark (411533) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:19 amZOMFGWTFLOLBBQ RACISTS!!!
JD (109425) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:21 am“Sure, rocky, keep turning a blind eye to unsettling evidence of duplicity, after all not every smoke signal indicates impending danger.”
ropelight – Evidence please knotty.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:22 amSo why did civilization first arise in warm climates, rather than cold climates, instead of the other way around?
The Egyptians (who lived in a warm climate) had civilization while people in Britain (with a much colder climate) were running around with their faces and private parts painted blue.
Michael Ejercito (64388b) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:23 amTo clarify my post at 11:09–
I am not saying that most of my AA friends are not still Dems, because to be honest, they are. But I am saying that the hysterical racial BS which is turning off everybody else is also turning off many AAs as well. The stale civil rights era rhetoric that continues to define blacks as second class citizens is hurting blacks more than it is helping, and a lot of them are noticing.
elissa (69edf1) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:24 amOh, c’mon, folks. Chris is just trolling. My guess is that he hasn’t done much with his own IQ.
Simon Jester (7648a5) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:24 am“I’m not a purist”
ropey – Sure, which explains the following whine:
“Miranda @ 10:33 am, never forget that Allen West voted in favor of increasing the debt limit. When the chips were down West turned his back on the Conservative principles he campaigned on, and instead supported the GOP establishment leadership’s capitulation to Obama’s unrestrained borrowing and spending.
West may yet redeem himself, but as it stands now he’s damaged goods, untrustworthy, suspect, and on probation.”
He can explain his vote, can you justify your criticism? I think not.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:26 amSorry Milhouse, I saw Dustin’s name on the right and typed his name instead of yours.
As for a high IQ president, I’d rather have a president with common sense. I don’t believe high IQ presidents of the past have done very well. In high school I took an IQ test and scored a 172. I’m told that is high, but I’d make a terrible president.
Tanny O'Haley (12193c) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:30 amNBC is very demeaning to black people and disrespectful of their not-black viewers too when they try to manipulate them with tricks and lies I think.
happyfeet (a55ba0) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:35 amMisrepresentations of Alan West’s positions are common:
“In an interview with National Journal the day he took office last month, West was more muted than usual, even somewhat in awe of his first day. When asked about being a tea party-aligned member in the new caucus, West professed loyalty to his party, saying he ran on the “Republican ticket” last fall, but that he did “believe in the grassroots values that the tea party exposes.””
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:37 amDid you read what I wrote? I explained that blacks are far less likely to be found at the intelligence levels you described than whites.
Culture only arguments are ridiculous. They discount literally thousands of years of evolution and well documented differences in things like brain size.
Before the 1960s blacks understood they were in an inferior position to whites, and strove to emulate white behavior to the best that they could. Post 1960s, blacks have felt free to return to their traditional behaviors and demand that whitey acccept that instead of “acting white”.
If we want blacks to return to pre 1960s behaviors, we would not only need to completely dismantle the PC/diversity/affirmative action culture, but also restore a degree of white supremacy.
The problem with that argument is that it ignores the fact that blacks are far more ethnocentrist/collectivist than whites. Any black political figure has appease the bulk of blacks or be completely disowned by their race. It is not the same way with whites.
Chris (5fc583) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:39 amThe Nazis were really very smart. Quite brilliant in fact. Their genocidal infrastructure & institutionalized racist ideology required a number of doctors, engineers, & lawyers to create & maintain.
The point,of course (for limited Leftist lurkers) is that a high IQ does not guarantee morality nor common sense.
Miranda (4104db) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:40 amTo Mike Ejercito – the question is WHO is it that left and why. Following those migration paths will also provide a path to the answer. As far as criticism of Chris’ remarks – he is correct and that evidence can be found in studies EVERYWHERE. Even Wiki has it laid out –
Steven S. (e5c232) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:44 amhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence
When it all comes apart, we’ll find out well those “credentialed” elites survive in a world of practical experience, aka dog eat dog.
Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (52c114) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:45 amChris kind of hearts his racisms.
JD (109425) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:46 amIt was funny. No problem.
And I sometimes leave so many comments that it’s actually not surprising someone assumed one was mine.
at least it was a smart comment. I’ll consider it a compliment.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:47 amChris @16 & @33 –
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over? You can’t make statements like that and not back them up with evidence.
If you got those numbers from The Bell Curve, you should know that the accuracy of its conclusions is… under much debate, shall we say. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve has a whole lot more, but in a nutshell, this is why Stashiu responded to you by saying that “no reputable study” supports those numbers.
If you got those numbers from somewhere else, then where? And what methodology was used?
Robin Munn (347954) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:50 amThe debate over the conclusions in The Bell Curve have a whole lot more to do with PC than with science.
Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (52c114) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:51 amSteven, your link says that it’s not necessarily factual. Right at the top.
The it says
If this blog is one big racial intel test, yours just lost a point, I’m afraid. (joking)
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:54 amEven if The Bell Curve turns out to have been correct, it’s kind of hard for me to want to believe it when people like Chris are using its conclusions like that.
Looks like I’m not quite as rational as I thought I was…
Robin Munn (347954) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:54 amAnd AD, sure, there’s too much PC reaction so it’s hard to have an honest adult conversation about it.
But the point stands that there are plenty of 125-135 IQ blacks, and those who doubt this are themselves idiots.
Culture is more of a problem than genetics.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 11:55 amI am trying to be more conscious of thread jacks. Chris did a good one, here. Subtly shifted the discussion from the 2012 candidates and political rhetoric related to race– to anthropology and questionable “studies” on racial inequality. Then for good measure Chris threw in some real racism to see if he’d get anyone to agree with him.
elissa (69edf1) — 8/18/2011 @ 12:01 pmOK, I got my popcorn.
What are we talking about?
Pious Agnostic (291f9a) — 8/18/2011 @ 12:03 pmDustin @43 –
To be scrupulously fair, the point Chris was making in comment #16 was not “there aren’t very many 125-135 IQ blacks”, but “there aren’t as many 125-135 IQ blacks as there are whites in that range”, because (he claims) the mean point of the black IQ bell curve is lower than the corresponding mean point for whites. And if you accept his premise, the conclusion does follow logically.
I simply find that I don’t want to accept the premise. And anecdotal evidence to the contrary is just that: anecdotes, and the plural of “anecdote” is not “data”. E.g., I have an African colleague who received no schooling until he was 14, then finished a high school degree by age 21, finishing twelve years’ worth of education in seven years. Whenever I’m tempted to mistake “uneducated” for “unintelligent”, that’s the guy I think of. But the existence of one person at the extreme right-hand side of the IQ bell curve does not say anything about the overall shape of that curve.
Robin Munn (347954) — 8/18/2011 @ 12:04 pmOkay, that comment got muddled. What I’m saying is that I can’t refute the premise of The Bell Curve, but I’m darn well not going to sit and listen to a racist argument, whether drawn from correct evidence or not, without objecting to it.
Robin Munn (347954) — 8/18/2011 @ 12:06 pmDustin @ 10:52am, Allen West deserves respect for his service to our country, as do all who served with honor. But, West’s military service doesn’t shield him from the charge of duplicity on his debt limit vote. (I’m aware of dailyrock’s link to West’s attempt to explain his position, and I will address it in a separate comment.)
We talk about personal responsibility and about holding our elected representatives accountable for their votes. Well, that damn sure includes Allen West, his military record no more grants immunity from criticism to him, than mine bestows infallibility on me.
Be assured, I’m not taking cheap shots at Allen West, nor am I waving a bloody shirt, but I do admit that when I encounter too many forced references to military experience too much repeated, often as non sequiturs, the practice calls attention to itself.
ropelight (9d80b8) — 8/18/2011 @ 12:20 pmNo, it sure doesn’t. Whether his name is Murtha or Mccain, a congressman’s utility is in his votes.
Yeah, it’s gotta get annoying. We are not a military dictatorship. We’re a civilian run republic.
My point is that West was particularly devoted, and I buy into the idea he truly loves his country. I also think some of his recent votes were not correct, and but they were during particularly convoluted legislative periods. That’s not an excuse. I just want more data before I reject the guy.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 12:23 pmBTW, I think Elissa is right.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 12:25 pmdaleyrocks @ 11:37 am
Should the last word in your quote be “espouses” rather than “exposes? Had you referenced it, I would have seen to it myself. That aside, I would like to read a bit more from the same source. Can you provide a link?
ropelight (9d80b8) — 8/18/2011 @ 12:27 pmMaxine Waters, whose political debut was in rationalizing the LA riots, followed up by spreading that CIA drug smuggling theory, and suggested ‘socializing’ the oil companies in 2008,
ian cormac (81c5c2) — 8/18/2011 @ 12:43 pmit’s not about race, it’s about radical politicss
==Comment by ropelight — 8/18/2011 @ 12:20 pm==
ropelight–my state’s current Republican junior senator made a very questionable vote while he served in the House. He got lots of well-deserved grief for it from conservatives, including me. In actuality, though, his vote was basically meaningless since that legislation was never going to make it through the other chamber and everybody knew it. Yet, a short while later that same specific “moderate” House vote gave some Dems in my state the opening and justification they needed to vote for him over the flawed Dem candidate he faced in the senate race. The independents and extra Dems who voted for him, combined with R voters, allowed him to win as a Repub in a blue state. And that was a very good outcome for America.
Allen West no doubt had his reasons for voting as he did, and it may be more complicated and strategic than it seems on the surface to others. Did his vote make a difference in the outcome one way or the other? That’s all I’m saying.
elissa (69edf1) — 8/18/2011 @ 12:47 pmWell, at the time, it was not at all clear, that Bill was dead on arrival, the circumstances surrounding that bill, plus a fair amount of lobbying from certain parties, subsequently made
ian cormac (81c5c2) — 8/18/2011 @ 12:56 pmthat untenable.
Jeez, not this racism hogwash, again.
Allen West and Walter Williams are my brothers.
Obambi?
He’s just a big ol’ black cloud hanging over my country.
Get it?
Dave Surls (eeed56) — 8/18/2011 @ 1:03 pmWhy does Allen West vote the way he does?
He’s tring to initiate a cranial implosion by DWS!
Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (52c114) — 8/18/2011 @ 1:13 pm“someone try to explain to me” OK, I’ll try:
gp (72be5d) — 8/18/2011 @ 1:23 pm1) Ed Schultz is a reckless blowhard who has no use for truth.
2) His audience loves to hear accusations of racism, true or not, because race-baiting is a pillar of their liberal worldview.
3) Libs see runaway debt as a feature, not a bug, so they think any criticism of debt is a red herring that disguises racism.
Dustin, I’m not rejecting Allen West. I’m criticising his debt limit vote and complaining that he brings up his military service too often.
Actually, I remain a West supporter. If Miranda’s memory holds (see her #14 at 10:56am) perhaps she can vouch for similar sentiments I made in recent comments. Although she is under no obligation to me whatsoever.
Notwithstanding dailyrock’s umbridge at my comment @10:47am, a close reading will reveal that along with my denunciations I also recognized the possibility of redemption.
I sincerely hope Lieutenant Colonel Allen West (Ret.) is able to overcome his rocky start and prove to be the leader we expected when he ran for office. But, I’d be a damn fool if I allowed my expectations to overcome my observations.
ropelight (9d80b8) — 8/18/2011 @ 1:25 pmWe’re on the same page, ropelight.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 1:30 pmRopelight, I would characterize your opinion of West as that he’s still a conservative, but that he’s teetering on the edge of the abyss of RINO-land.
So – I think you still like & respect West – but you harbor reservations as to whether or not he’ll stay true to his principles or start down the path towards Boehner-like irrelevance.
Do I have that right?
Miranda (4104db) — 8/18/2011 @ 1:34 pmSorry – crossed posts again. I think we are all on the same page then.
We just don’t want to get burned again.
Miranda (4104db) — 8/18/2011 @ 1:35 pmThank you Miranda. Yes, you read me correctly with one exception. I don’t fear West will slide down into RINO-land.
What I fear is he has/will abandon his avowed Conservative principles to seek favor with the GOP establishment. Unless elisia is right and his debt limit vote is a political manouevour of some sort, as yet to be revealed. Time will tell, and the truth will be revealed well in advance of the next election.
—–
Another Drew @ 1:13 pm,
Since Lt. Colonel West is an accomplished artillery officer, I suspect that given the tubes and a trained fire team DWS couldn’t run fast enough to escape the purifying effects which naturally accompany a barrage of fire from heaven.
ropelight (9d80b8) — 8/18/2011 @ 2:00 pmThese bellicose libs will stop at nothing to win the election.
DohBiden (d54602) — 8/18/2011 @ 2:34 pmHow is stating a fact a “racist argument”? I don’t know if it is true or not, so am not arguing that the Bell Curve is correct. But, for the sake of this argument, let’s assume that it is true that the mean point of the black IQ bell curve is lower than the corresponding mean point for whites – then that would be a fact, not a “racist argument”.
So, if scientific data were to uncover some uncomfortable truths (I’m not saying they do, I don’t know) do we ignore those facts because to acknowledge the facts would be “racist”?
Monkeytoe (5234ab) — 8/18/2011 @ 2:36 pm“Notwithstanding dailyrock’s umbridge at my comment @10:47am,”
ropelight – WTF? You say “Be assured, I’m not taking cheap shots at Allen West.” then go on to call him duplicitous and call him “damaged goods, untrustworthy, suspect, and on probation” because of a single vote for which he has a perfectly good explanation. If that is not cheap shotting someone, I’d like to see an example of what you really consider it in action.
I was not happy with his recent vote on Pigford, but I think that was more a question of him being misinformed.
Your over the top reaction to Rep. West’s debt ceiling vote suggests misinformation on your part.
“Should the last word in your quote be “espouses” rather than “exposes?”
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/18/2011 @ 2:39 pmFeel free to correct the National Journal from which the quote was cut and pasted.
http://nationaljournal.com/politics/the-meteoric-rise-of-allen-west-20110212
Dustin – whoops, just bumped up a couple of points (Wiki) – I’d say there is a “bias” quotient at the AAA.
The AAA decided in 2010 to strip the word “science” from a statement of its long-range plan. The change was favored by members who study race, ethnicity and gender and see themselves as advocates for native peoples or human rights.
And This:
On May 22, 2010, the AAA Executive Board issued a resolution that declared Arizona’s SB1070, a law which empowers state law enforcement to assist with the enforcement of federal law, to be “unconstitutional.” The Board claims it will boycott Arizona, but will not boycott “Indian Reservations” within the state, until the law “is either repealed or struck down as constitutionally invalid.” The Board did not state what it will do if the courts uphold SB1070 as constitutionally valid.
Steven S. (e5c232) — 8/18/2011 @ 2:49 pmThe Board stated that “The AAA has a long and rich history of supporting policies that prohibit discrimination based on…national origin…”[10]
Steven, I’m sure you’re right that there are organizations such as that one that have no clue about being reasonable about race.
I didn’t link a page taking their word to be helpful, though, did I?
I think race is a fundamentally stupid thing to worry about.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 3:13 pmI mean the election in 12.
DohBiden (d54602) — 8/18/2011 @ 3:16 pmWe don’t need no stinkin congress
We don’t need no Dream Act
We’ve got Obama running for re-election
Makin up the rules as he goes along!
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2011/08/immigration_obama_eases_studen.html
elissa (69edf1) — 8/18/2011 @ 3:27 pmthe faded shirt the weathered brow the calloused hand up on the plow i loved you then and i love you now ruben james
happyfeet (a55ba0) — 8/18/2011 @ 3:44 pmDustin – I disagree. Take a look at the Nobel list – particularly in Physics, Math, Economics. There is most definitely a difference in intelligence between the races. Why is it that physical differences are accepted – particularly in athletics – ex.: number of blacks dominating the NBA. But if you hint at a superiority curve on the battlefield of metal acuteness…
Steven S. (e5c232) — 8/18/2011 @ 4:16 pm“Take a look at the Nobel list – particularly in Physics, Math, Economics. There is most definitely a difference in intelligence between the races.”
Scientific proof!!!!!!!!!11ty!!!!!!!!!!
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/18/2011 @ 4:19 pmSteven S. – White guys are better golfers. The guys at Augusta National scientifically proved that!
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/18/2011 @ 4:21 pmI choose option C, he’s making a show of being ugly and unfair towards someone he generally feels inadequate in comparison to. It wants attention.
What a stupid argument. So blacks are stupid because some europeans didn’t give them enough prizes, especially during periods of racism.
You think Charles Drew is stupid because he didn’t get a nobel prize?
I don’t care about race, and people who do are deeply misguided. Look at individuals.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 4:22 pmdaleyrocks @ 2:39 pm,
Come now rocky, you’ve got the cart before the horse. I called West ‘duplicitous, damaged goods, untrustworthy, suspect, and on probation’ @10:47am, which was over an hour and a half before I wrote, ‘Be assured, I’m not taking cheap shots at Allen West…’ @12:20pm.
But, that’s not really the point. Contrary to my clear statement, you are accusing me of taking cheap shots at West. Well, you’re entitled to your opinion. But, I’m entitled to call ’em like I see ’em, and I did.
West’s campaign was largely based on TEA Party support, which he gratefully embraced, and which enthusiastically embraced him in return. But, no sooner was he safely ensconced in office, than West began to signal a separation from the TEA Party.
rocky, an excerpt from your National Journal quote @11:37am illustrates the point.
(Which, if correctly reported, may be taken as a Freudian Slip, or as an example of sub-standard usage.)
So, at this point, inquiring minds have to ask if West’s vote on Pigford was cynical political maneuver, as elissa’s comment might be extended to suggest, or if it was yet more sucking up to the GOP establishment as I fear, or possibly as your excuse-making suggests, a result of voting without adequately informing himself on the issue.
In sum, rocky, although I respect you and your opinions generally speaking, on this matter we remain at loggerheads. I’m not misinformed, I’m critical of Allen West’s performance in Congress. You say I’m being overly harsh, I say you’re seeing not what is, but what you want to see.
ropelight (9d80b8) — 8/18/2011 @ 4:24 pmHell, one could just look at Nobel prizes to prove PROVE that Yasser Arafat and Al Gore and Barack Obama are smarter than all major republicans.
The fact is that the amount of intelligence needed to be a capable President is actually relatively commonplace in all races. If there is some statistical skew in the extremes, it makes no difference. One should not have to resort to this kind of analysis, or race at all, when looking at a presidential candidate.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 4:24 pmMany would say that success in life is better correlated with “Emotional IQ” than “Intellectual”, FWIW.
Just remember, MJ passed the ball to Steve Kerr to take the final shot in one of the Bulls’ championship finals…
And table-tennis and badminton champions are Chinese. No, I don’t know what my point was with that.
MD in Philly (83d172) — 8/18/2011 @ 4:26 pm“Contrary to my clear statement, you are accusing me of taking cheap shots at West.”
ropelight – You are 100% correct, because contrary to your clear statement, all you have done is take cheap shots at Rep. West as I pointed out using your own words.
You call them as you see them and so do I.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/18/2011 @ 4:30 pmHerman Branson invented the alpha helix protein structure, working with Linus Pauling.
But the nobel prize for physics was only awarded to Pauling, so clearly blacks are dumber.
David Blackwell, despite never making it to fifth grade and teaching himself to read by pondering over labels, has several mathematical theorems named after him and is arguably the greatest statistician in history, pioneering set theory.
But nobody gave him a nobel prize.
I could go on and on and on. My squad leader in the Army was black, yet had a GT score in the high 120s and could do math like a human computer.
There are a LOT of brilliant black people. If you are wondering how smart a person is and start analyzing his skin color instead of his mental ability, you are a fool.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 4:33 pmThere are a LOT of brilliant black people but Jon Huntsman sure as hell ain’t one of them.
happyfeet (a55ba0) — 8/18/2011 @ 4:39 pmhahahahahaha
True.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 4:43 pm“His reader” singular. I see what you did there.
JD (2da347) — 8/18/2011 @ 4:45 pm“Herman Branson invented the alpha helix protein structure,…”
Invented or discovered? If it was invented wouldn’t the credit go to God?
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/18/2011 @ 4:52 pmLOL, Ashford facepalms himself even more than he did last month.
ian cormac (81c5c2) — 8/18/2011 @ 4:54 pmMachinist, God to be sure, is the original architect, but he engineered a model of it in an effort to work out how we’re put together at base level.
Anyway, it’s way over any of our heads. His skin color obviously has nothing to do with it, but it’s really annoying that someone would write off a race because of how many prizes they got.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 4:55 pmI think you nailed it well with your list of some of the less reputable prize winners.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/18/2011 @ 4:58 pm“Machinist, God to be sure, is the original architect,”
Now of that I am not in agreement. 😉
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/18/2011 @ 4:59 pmGotta love lefty gorebots complaining about PC when they try to threaten people with the Death Penalty.
DohBiden (d54602) — 8/18/2011 @ 5:01 pmAlgore and barcky got Nobels and someone is using that as a metric for intelligence?!?!
JD (822109) — 8/18/2011 @ 5:03 pmMachinist–Did you happen to catch the David Mabus article linked this morning at the puppets 5 thread ?
elissa (69edf1) — 8/18/2011 @ 5:07 pmWest voted to increase the debt limit and he voted to extend Pigford funding. Neither of those votes can be seen as remotely in accordance with Conservative principles. And both of West’s votes are in direct opposition to his own words.
At CPAC’s three-day conference in February of this year, West was given a high-profile opportunity to speak (see dailyrock’s National Journal link), his theme was Our Sacred Oath, Dawn of a new America.
And then the evidence shows Allen West voted to violate those very same principles he challenged conservatives to reaffirm.
Now, according to dailyrocks, pointing the finger at West’s hypocrisy is taking cheap shots. Well, I disagree. So, let’s all call ’em like we see ’em, and let the chips fall where they may.
ropelight (9d80b8) — 8/18/2011 @ 5:10 pm-Comment by elissa — 8/18/2011 @ 5:07 pm-
No Ma’am. I will look for it. Thank you.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/18/2011 @ 5:11 pmMonkeytoe @64 –
It was the rest of Chris’s comment that smelled of racism to me. The third paragraph of his #16 gave off a robust odor, and then most of #33 just plain stank of the stuff. Notice how he argues in #33 for restoring, and I quote verbatim, “a degree of white supremacy” so that blacks would “return to pre 1960s behaviors”.
Troll or no troll, I’m not letting that sort of excrement go unchallenged. It looked to me like he was fishing for agreement, hoping to go back to his fellow Kos Kidz and say, “see how those racist right-wingers agreed with all those race-baiting statements I made?” I’m not letting him get away with spreading that kind of bovine fertilizer around here.
Oh, and get a load of how he claims that “blacks are far more ethnocentrist/collectivist than whites”, while lumping all blacks into the same category. So not only is he a racist, he’s a hypocrite as well.
Robin Munn (347954) — 8/18/2011 @ 5:14 pmI never miss an opportunity when it arises to point out that algore’s co-nominee for the Nobel Prize was the courageous Irena Sendler.
What she did: Sendler lived in Warsaw (prior to that, she had lived in Otwock and Tarczyn while working for urban Social Welfare departments). As early as 1939, when the Germans invaded Poland, she began aiding Jews. She and her helpers created over 3,000 false documents to help Jewish families, prior to joining the organized Żegota resistance and the children’s division. Helping Jews was very risky—in German-occupied Poland, all household members risked death if they were found to be hiding Jews, a more severe punishment than in other occupied European countries.
What he did: He told us the earth had a fever.
He should have been, and continued to remain utterly ashamed of having accepted that award instead of withdrawing his name and publicly stating that it was unthinkable that he would accept such an award when no one deserved it more than Irena Sendler.
Dana (4eca6e) — 8/18/2011 @ 5:14 pmAnd I didn’t notice those right away, or I would have called him out sooner. I initially focused on the “average IQ of 85” statement; it wasn’t until later that I saw the rest of the repulsive bigotry he’d snuck into his comments.
Robin Munn (347954) — 8/18/2011 @ 5:16 pmNobel Peace Prizes have no relationship to brilliance, only politics.
The others, ???
Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (52c114) — 8/18/2011 @ 5:16 pmAccording to Daley and MD, ropelight has used language in describing West that makes it hard to believe that he is “a West supporter”. Maybe you are ropelight, but if someone called me “duplicitous, damaged goods, untrustworthy, suspect, and on probation”, I would hope that person was not counted among my supporters. I find it hard to believe you don’t understand daley’s point.
West is who he is, he voted as he did, for what combination of good or bad reasons, and maybe someone will write a post on West making nhim the center of discussion, then forevermore we can all just say “see X”.
My freshman chemistry professor thought that Watson and Crick should have shared their Nobel with a woman (forget her name) who helped them with X-Ray diffraction studies.
I believe one of the pioneers of heart surgery for congenital defects actually was dependent on her non-physican African-American assistant for the more complicated parts of surgery.
MD in Philly (16129d) — 8/18/2011 @ 5:27 pm“And then the evidence shows Allen West voted to violate those very same principles he challenged conservatives to reaffirm.”
ropelight – Did West sign or make any “no new taxes” pledges? He specifically rejected Grover Norquist’s last year. The debt ceiling increase was sold as not increasing taxes.
What principles did voting for the debt ceiling increase violate? Please explain.
As West explained in many stories on his campaign website, the Tea Party supported his candidacy and he supported their goals. Does that make him a Tea Party candidate? I don’t recall him referring to himself that way.
Can anybody produce anything of West calling himself a Tea Party candidate?
He was endorsed by Palin, but he also had folks like Boehner campaigning for him.
Me, I think he was a loyal soldier when Boehner needed his vote. Calling him duplicitous, damaged goods, on probation, etc. are cheap shots not warranted by a review of the facts and more based on wishful thinking.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/18/2011 @ 5:29 pmDoc, too many times we forget that “Life ain’t fair!”
Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (52c114) — 8/18/2011 @ 5:30 pmNobel Peace Prizes have no relationship to brilliance, only politics.
The others, ???
Do I detect an anti semitic note? Ok, forget the Nobel. Let’s compile a list of the great physists from the entire continent of Africa. A little thin? Ok, how about math., economics, biology, anthropology, even Eagle Scouts? Still thin?
Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Shelby Steele- all smarter I dare say than any one on this board. But they, quite unfortunately, are the exception to the rule. I believe many here are falling into the liberal addiction of basing arguments on exceptions. I’m also going out on a limb and accusing this board of being racist by virtue of a 90+% White participation.
Steve S. (866f07) — 8/18/2011 @ 5:44 pmno one deserved it more than Irena Sendler.
Comment by Dana — 8/18/2011 @ 5:14 pm
Dana,
Thank you for sharing this. I didn’t know about the brave Ms. Sendler- and its to my shame that I did not.
And its to alGoricle’s everlasting shame that he accepted that prize.
I could spend hours cursing with vituperation at the mere thought of Gore. And probably not repeat a single curse word.
ppk_pixie (901c40) — 8/18/2011 @ 5:53 pmI’m also going out on a limb and accusing this board of being racist by virtue of a 90+% White participation.
Steve S.,
Just so we can be clear here, did you just accuse me of racism?
Dana (4eca6e) — 8/18/2011 @ 5:54 pmSteve S. @100 –
What you have to remember about Africa is that it’s cursed with corrupt governments just about everywhere, who skim the money that should have gone towards education, infrastructure, etc. and put it in their own family’s pockets.
This, IMHO, goes a long way towards explaining the relative lack of prominent scientists coming out of Africa. I believe the distribution of raw intelligence in Africa to be more or less equal to what it is in the rest of the world, because I seriously doubt there’s as much genetic difference between the different ethnicities as the racists would like to think there is. However, to be a great physicist, you need not only raw intelligence, but many years of expensive education, which few Africans have the chance to get because of the economic conditions in their countries. (Look at the case of my African colleague, whom I mentioned in #46: he was born with a brilliant mind, but if he hadn’t gotten the chance to go to school at age 14, that brilliant mind would have been stuck raising cattle rather than pursuing a Ph.D. in linguistics).
If my theory is correct, the lack of scientists coming out of Africa isn’t because of lower IQ, but because of vastly lower educational opportunities.
Robin Munn (347954) — 8/18/2011 @ 5:59 pmI’m also going out on a limb and accusing this board of being racist by virtue of a 90+% White participation.
Comment by Steve S
You must be new, or do not read carefully. JD often reminds us that we are all racist, in spite of the fact that we get to be judged by the content of our character rather than the color of our skin, since no one can see the color of our skin (can you?).
BTW, Steve, why do you assume more than 90% of the contributors here are white? Because you don’t think African Americans are smart enough to use computers? Maybe something more evidence based, such as the majority here seem to be politically conservative and don’t support Obama and the African American community is overwhelmingly Democratic and pro-Obama?
We weren’t basing any arguments on exceptions, we were giving examples, and you added a few more, thank you.
Many a home in the African American community have had pictures of JFK and MLK in them. It’s a shame that todays dems repudiate much of what those two men stood for (in spite of their personal flaws).
MD in Philly (16129d) — 8/18/2011 @ 6:12 pmDana- I guess Steve thinks being white = being racist.
MD in Philly (16129d) — 8/18/2011 @ 6:16 pmDana -Are you saying you’re white? If so, I have been led to believe that this is a genetic trait so do not be so hard on yourself.
Robin-I agree with you to some degree. My point is that if there are clearly observable physical differences between the races, why is it taboo to suggest that maybe, just maybe there could also be differences in other facets of our existence?
Steve S. (866f07) — 8/18/2011 @ 6:16 pmMD-I agree and I’m afraid that my little tongue in cheek is not coming across. But I think your line about computers is funny. I guess you would have to have had the public “education” experience I had to see the humor.
Steve S. (866f07) — 8/18/2011 @ 6:31 pmdaleyrocks @ 5:29 pm
Are you seriously claiming that West’s vote to increase the debt limit, handing Obama an initial blank check for $1.5 Trillion in additional borrowing, is somehow consistent with Conservative principles?
If so, that’s so fundamentally wrongheaded I can’t fathom any way forward. This is where we part company. You go to your church and I’ll go to mine.
ropelight (9d80b8) — 8/18/2011 @ 6:32 pmSteve S., because the reality is that there is no genetic definition of “race”. There are ways of grouping together people who share some populations of gene groupings, but such has no bright line boundaries where one can take an individual and scientifically say that “X is of race Y”.
As a loose concept of “race” as shorthand for decribing these populations of gene groupings, there are some useful things we can say about an individual. We can say that some individual from that grouping is more likely to show characteristic “Y” or less likely. But we can’t say categorically that a particular individual must show that characteristic.
So we can’t say that “Blacks” have lower or higher IQ than Whites, even were we to possess a reliable direct measure of the concept of “IQ”. We can only express probabilities.
People confuse the distinctions and end up saying stupid things about both sides of the controversy as a result.
SPQR (26be8b) — 8/18/2011 @ 6:36 pm-Comment by elissa — 8/18/2011 @ 5:07 pm-
Thank you. I found it on my second trip through.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/18/2011 @ 6:40 pmThank you SPQR. I like many semi-successful whites, are just looking for an excuse to off load the guilt brought about by our success. Self loathing is just not working for me anymore man.
Steve S. (866f07) — 8/18/2011 @ 6:42 pm“steve” is proud of his Moby act, or is objectively racist.
Denounced. Denounced and condemned.
JD (318f81) — 8/18/2011 @ 6:46 pmSteve can identify race by the manner in which someone types?
JD (318f81) — 8/18/2011 @ 6:48 pmThank you SPQR. I like many semi-successful whites, are just looking for an excuse to off load the guilt brought about by our success. Self loathing is just not working for me anymore man.
Comment by Steve S. — 8/18/2011 @ 6:42 pm
WTF?
SPQR (26be8b) — 8/18/2011 @ 6:50 pmHey -I just watched Jeannine Garafalo (however the he’ll you spell it) on a Fox News clip say that she believes Herman Cain is being paid to act like a “conservative” white dude.
Somehow Im thinking I’m not the racist.
Steve S. (866f07) — 8/18/2011 @ 6:51 pmMD in Philly @ 5:27 pm
Ever since the Gingrich revolution of ’94, Conservatives have sent so many representatives to Congress with high hopes only to have them turn their backs on the people and principles who put them in office that if I seem overly critical of Allen West, it’s because I’m an old dog and I know when it rains in the valley that it’s snowing in the mountain.
ropelight (9d80b8) — 8/18/2011 @ 6:53 pmJD dude ( or dudette), you have got to lay off the lemons. WTH?!
Steve S. (866f07) — 8/18/2011 @ 6:54 pmDana -Are you saying you’re white? If so, I have been led to believe that this is a genetic trait so do not be so hard on yourself.
Color me slow – I haven’t a clue what you mean.
Dana (4eca6e) — 8/18/2011 @ 6:56 pmSteve S., dude (or dudette, NTTAWTT), did your parents have any kids who learned the English language? You’re essentially incoherent because nobody can tell where you’re coming from or what you’re trying to say.
If you are really calling everyone here a racist, get lost. If you really believe black people are inferior to other races, get lost even faster. Do not pass go, do not collect your white supremacy card, do not let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
Stashiu3 (601b7d) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:00 pmStashiu does a good job of pointing out that steve is a massengill heir, regardless of which perspective he is coming from.
JD (318f81) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:06 pm-Comment by Stashiu3 — 8/18/2011 @ 7:00 pm-
Thank. You.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:07 pmJD, He’s good at that. Kind of like a gallant knight, don’t you think?
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:08 pmSo “Steve S” is playing a troll game off of this man:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Sailer
Steve Sailer would have no problem just listing his name. This character? Just more trollery.
I would point out that “Chris” earlier in the thread sounds an awful lot like “Steve S.”
Simon Jester (cdcfc2) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:09 pmLet me get this straight Stash-You are claiming to be unaware that the left (of which roughly 90% of blacks are alligned) consider white conservatives to be racists? That is the basis for my comments in that regard. I am NOT calling everyone here a racist as evidenced by the fact that I have not called everyone here a racist. OK Stash? What I AM saying is that there is evidence of differences between “groups” or “races” in general. Though I am circumcised I am not Jewish. However that does not mean that I am incapable of noticing the disproportional contribution that small group has made on civilization. Get it now? Or do I need to bring your parents into this?
Steve S. (866f07) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:15 pmSo sick of having to point out racist crap from people we’ve never seen before (or just barely). If we don’t however, honest newbies get turned off or think it might be true, and dishonest progressives (Kilgore Trout anyone?) point to the lack of dissent as proof the population is rife with racists.
Steve S. and Chris can both get lost as far as I’m concerned. Any more racist crap from unknowns will get put in moderation and Patterico can decide to release or nuke them. Easier for me if they get completely nuked… and on a related note, I’ve found imdw’s lack of recent success extremely satisfying (dozens of comments in the spam filter, all variations on a theme).
Before anyone asks, it doesn’t look like they’re the same person and there aren’t [edited] any indications they’re socks of anyone else AFAICT.
Stashiu3 (601b7d) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:16 pmKind of like a gallant knight, don’t you think?
Comment by Machinist — 8/18/2011 @ 7:08 pm
Why yes, Thir Thathiu is like a gallant knight…just. like. YOU. …. Sir. Mac.
*innocent look*
ppk_pixie (901c40) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:16 pmUh oh, steve. now you’ve gone and done it.
elissa (69edf1) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:16 pmOK, delete my “WTF?”. Steve S. is another poor Moby attempt – probably by one of the usual suspects of trolls.
SPQR (26be8b) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:19 pmPet peeve, way off topic. I had to sit in a meeting today where there was a self-important douchebag that kept saying ir-regardless. He was only slightly less annoying than steve the racist.
JD (318f81) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:19 pm-Comment by ppk_pixie — 8/18/2011 @ 7:16 pm-
But Stashiu is the one wielding the sword of justice and tilting with the vile trolls in our defense.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:20 pmYeah, welcome to moderation.
Stashiu3 (601b7d) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:20 pmSelf refutation rocks !!!!!!
JD (318f81) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:21 pmI am NOT calling everyone here a racist as evidenced by the fact that I have not called everyone here a racist.
Comment by Steve S. — 8/18/2011 @ 7:15 pm
I’m also going out on a limb and accusing this board of being racist by virtue of a 90+% White participation.
Comment by Steve S. — 8/18/2011 @ 5:44 pm
Heh.
Stashiu, I momentarily doubted my sanity. Thanks for the clarification.
Perhaps Steve is just far too clever for us.
Dana (4eca6e) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:22 pmThis is why we can’t have nice things. 😉
Stashiu3 (601b7d) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:23 pmThis is why we can’t have nice things. 😉
Comment by Stashiu3 — 8/18/2011 @ 7:23 pm
:::puts fingers in ears::: lalalallalala!!!
😉
ppk_pixie (901c40) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:25 pm😆
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:25 pmThis is why we can’t have nice things.
Not so. We have you. Nicely played.
Dana (4eca6e) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:26 pmSir Mac and Sir Stash have a nice ring to them.
JD (318f81) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:27 pmSee? Everyone loves the gallant Stash. I can reveal to you that he looks quite young and that certain classy Southern ladies all agreed he was somewhat “hott” and rather cute, although I am not in a position to judge that myself.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:29 pmToo bad he is so damn racist.
JD (318f81) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:30 pmHey! Did anyone notice the update? (smooth change of topic back to the thread)
(P.S. You’ll pay for that later bub. 😛 )
Stashiu3 (601b7d) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:31 pmSir Mac and Sir Stash have a nice ring to them.
Comment by JD — 8/18/2011 @ 7:27 pm
::does the Snoopy dance:::
hah- I win! :::slips JD a $20::: shhh!
ppk_pixie (901c40) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:33 pmMaxine Waters is a racist hagula.
DohBiden (d54602) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:34 pmDear Stashiu3:
Reminds me of that supertroll Mabus I linked to on the other page. That level of focus on harassing others is kind of creepy. Or pathological.
Simon Jester (cdcfc2) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:37 pmOh, and as for the very familiar Mr. Ashford? How many comments does he get on any post on his blog? Just sayin’.
The green eyed monster is never attractive.
Simon Jester (cdcfc2) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:39 pmsome very good good bloggers don’t get many comments we could all name at least one probably
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:41 pm“Are you seriously claiming that West’s vote to increase the debt limit, handing Obama an initial blank check for $1.5 Trillion in additional borrowing, is somehow consistent with Conservative principles?”
ropelight – You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the debt ceiling deal and how Congress works.
Government borrowing goes up in relation to spending needs. Spending was pared back, but not enough, by the debt ceiling deal. There have been no appropriations bills or budgets passed related to Fiscal 2012. Debt is climbing due to existing commitments. To claim Obama was handed a blank check is completely delusional. He is not authorized to spend money. No conservative principles were violated.
The second half of the deal has not yet been negotiated so no conservative principles or blank checks can possibly have been violated. You can’t name any.
Tighten up your sh*t.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:52 pmKman has blogs? Who knew?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/18/2011 @ 7:57 pmDaley: I’m sure that the similarity is names is wholly a coincidence.
Mr. Feet: my only point was the Eternal Question…why does Kman stalk Aaron so? Jealosy of blog presence is the nicest of possibilities.
Simon Jester (cdcfc2) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:00 pmGo away for a few hours and this is what happens. Kids today.
Ag80 (9a213d) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:01 pmThat Steve guy did offer up one interesting tidbit amongst all the bilge–the Janeane Garafalo accusation than Herman Cain is a fraud, a token, and is being paid to pretend to be a black conservative. I saw it earlier, I think at hotair. I’d really enjoy seeing Herman sitting in the same room with Janeane and the camera rolling as they calmly discuss and further explore her ideas about this.
elissa (69edf1) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:02 pmoh. Understood Mr. Jester here is a song for our friend Mr. Kman then
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:04 pmelissa, that was positively disgusting.
She’s patently racist… judging an accomplished man as a token merely because he’s black, and so lazy about it she doesn’t realize she’s claiming he’s working with someone he doesn’t at all want to work with.
She’s an actor, judging a man of some accomplishment. They really hate it when ‘their’ constituents leave their control.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:06 pm“…as they calmly discuss and further explore her ideas about this.”
Elissa, on another forum my official title is “Trouble” which I wear with pride, having earned it, but I bow to you, Ma’am.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:11 pmDustin, I would venture that Garafalo is worse than racist. She is one of those who think those “poor people” can’t help themselves without a white savior.
It’s an insidious insult perpetuated by people who “care,” without ever realizing their condescending attitude marks them better than any hood or robe.
Ag80 (9a213d) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:13 pm________________________________________________
-You are claiming to be unaware that the left (of which roughly 90% of blacks are alligned)
That’s the salient point. Everything else is window dressing. Of course, one can say that people who lean left, particularly if they’re older than 30 or 40, and regardless of their race or ethnicity, are mentally deficient. Or they’re certainly immature.
As far as I’m concerned, your emphasis on intelligence and how that’s reflected in the black community is putting the cart before the horse. If only one — and one thing only — could be magically adjusted in order to have the most profound, positive impact on black America, it wouldn’t revolve around the issue of IQ. It would revolve around increasing the common sense throughout the African-American community, which automatically requires that people be non-liberal and conservative to truly centrist.
The foolish, mindless nature of 21st-century liberalism — and the vogue of liberalism for liberalism’s sake common around the water coolers of modern civilization (in the offices of the media, academia, government, politically-correct corporations, etc) — is dumbing down everyone’s IQ.
Mark (411533) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:15 pmYes, Ag80.
She thinks he’s barely entitled to any political opinions at all. She’s decided what his political choice ought to be, and if he deviates from it, he’s either stupid or he must be taking a bribe! His race defines his traits, which is at least racist.
But it’s deeper than that.
What’s sad is she probably is convinced her views are just for ‘their’ own good anyway.
This country has moved backwards on race in the past few years.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:18 pmIt’s so nice to be with a group of folks I know I can count on, whether they are white, black, yellow, pink, red, green, violet or transparent. I knew JD would come through, and stash shows up when we really need an adult, and daley returns the favor of combined effort.
ropelight- I too have been frustrated by people saying things that sound conservative then get weak in the knees when push comes to shove. I also know that West has been in an elected position only a short time and needs to prove himself, but…
MD in Philly (16129d) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:19 pm– your choice of language suggests he is “untrustworthy” and “duplicitous”, which are definitive write-off descriptions in my Lexicon, and you are free to have that judgement if you want, but to the typical reader to describe someone that way and then say that you support that person just doesn’t fit
– you’re free to express your opinion of West, but whenever you present dogmatic assertions putting him down, I and others will feel obliged to give reasons to counterbalance your opinion. As Daley alludes to, and I’ve written at length about before, I think the debt ceiling debate was/is a battle that we could fight and win only to lose the war. Until Obama is out and the Dems become the minority in the Senate, the best we can do is minimize their damage. If the debt ceiling was not raised the chaos would have been blamed on “fringe repubs” and we would have seen a reversal in the next election. As it is, the point needs to be made that the ceiling was raised and our rating was affected anyway, because the debt is the problem.
I think people can agree to disagree on this last point as I can’t prove my view is correct, but I will continue to say that agreeing to raise the debt ceiling (by itself) at this time isn’t necessarily a betrayal of conservative principles, but perhaps the reality of the situation at the moment until change can be made.
The irony is that Garafolo is so limited in her abilities to think through anything logically and non-emotionally, as well as just being disingenuous, she could never grasp the point you make, Dustin. She has essentially patted the little Uncle Tom on the head like a small child and assumed her position of intellectual superiority.
Dana (4eca6e) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:21 pmGarafolo always looks like she needs a bath
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:22 pmEh…She has essentially patted the little Uncle Tom on the head like a small child and assumed her *rightful* position of intellectual superiority.
Dana (4eca6e) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:23 pmMark, I think the cultural problem is one of soft bigotry and easy welfare. There’s a culture of fatherlessness, and I suspect if you ignore race, that alone is a major indicator of all sorts of phenomena.
The building block of our society has been compromised.
I know a few folks who managed to be pretty awesome despite not having a good father, but nearly invariably if I find a screwed up soul, his father wasn’t doing his job.
And it’s a self sustaining cycle, which is probably why it’s affected certain races in different proportions, stemming from a time when interracial relationships were quite rare.
Race isn’t the factor. It’s the lack of some kind of positive culture of responsibility, and it’s quite a problem.
It might make the Chrises of the world feel better to be on the ‘team’ with all the nobel prize winners (I doubt he has any idea if that’s accurate), but it’s a total cop out.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:24 pmFTFY
Stashiu3 (601b7d) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:25 pmThis is the same Garafalo who helped “build the wall” between the CIA and FBI (correct?) then actually sat on the 9/11 commission covering her own tail (correct?) who then had some role in “holding the sheet music” while Freddy and Fanny burned (correct?).
How can one person be in the midst of so many different betrayals of the public trust???? (Correct me if I’m wrong, please.)
MD in Philly (16129d) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:26 pmA point Mark likes to make is how these more loud progressives are compensating for their personal deficiencies. Whether she’s aware of it or not, she’s going out of her way to establish her wisdom and morality, and she’s doing it because she’s sore about being a selfish airhead.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:27 pmYou’re talking about Gorelick.
Garafalo is an actress. The geek girl from Beavus and Butthead.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:27 pmsplish splash I forgot about the bath
I went and put my dancin’ shoes on!
happyfeet (3c92a1) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:28 pmI’m curious as to how and why she is seen as someone whose opinion is of national value? What has she accomplished that she should be given a regular guest shot on MSNBC to opine and enlighten the masses?
Perhaps I’ve answered my own question.
Dana (4eca6e) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:28 pmI think that’s Jamie Gorelick you’re thinking of. Garafalo is the actress.
Stashiu3 (601b7d) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:29 pmOkay, Dustin beat me to it… well done Sir. 🙂
Stashiu3 (601b7d) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:30 pmI’ve dubbed Gorelick, the Zelig of disaster, from the above mentioned wall, to the 9/11 commission, which she boomeranged into defense of class action
ian cormac (81c5c2) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:31 pmfigures in that same event, Of Course, Fannie Mae, counsel for BP,
I understand the confusion, MD, but Gorelick helped ruin the economy, Garafolo just ruins your retinas.
Ag80 (9a213d) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:32 pmI seem to recall that all the metrics, out of wedlock births, education, income, were improving once government racism was stopped, until LBJs “War on Poverty” changed and perverted all the incentives. I don’t know what the KKK could have done that would compare with what liberal Democrats did to the black community. All the factors that helped Asian people assimilate and succeed so quickly were stripped out of their culture and strong financial incentives put in place to prevent self esteem or self sufficiency.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:33 pmThank you sirs for your kind correction
MD in Philly (16129d) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:33 pmbut
has anyone ever seen them in the same room together??
“I will continue to say that agreeing to raise the debt ceiling (by itself) at this time isn’t necessarily a betrayal of conservative principles, but perhaps the reality of the situation at the moment until change can be made.”
MD in Philly – Controlling only the House, the real battle remains to be fought next year. Only the purists, of which ropelight claimed he is not one, wanted to fall on their swords this year.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:35 pmNot me, MD, you may be onto something.
Ag80 (9a213d) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:35 pm______________________________________________
She has essentially patted the little Uncle Tom on the head like a small child
Garafolo undoubtedly sees herself as being such a tolerant, enlightened, compassionate, non-racist, wonderful, generous human being. Only thing more laughable and pathetic than that, is such people also perceiving their socio-political opponents as being just the opposite of those traits or qualities.
Mark (411533) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:35 pmHas anyone ever seen Steve S and David Duke in the same room? Kman and Mrs Doubtfire?
JD (318f81) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:37 pmUltimately, and mostly, Garafolo sees herself as better than a black man.
Dana (4eca6e) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:37 pmWow Gorelick was a trainwreck. The ultimate hob nobbing crony crook.
She oversaw Fannie Mae’s big accounting scandal, demanded the government use weak security, helped erect that wall of intel (many believe because of Chinese sources of funding for the Clinton re-election campaign), whitewashed part of the 9/11 commission, professionally defended Duke for their treatment of the lacrosse players, and on and on.
You wouldn’t believe this character if you saw her on a TV show or read her in a book. So consistently wrong, with results that generally amount to someone taking in a windfall.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:38 pm🙂
Oh God.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:40 pmDaley-
MD in Philly (16129d) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:42 pmI think it was good that a number of folk took the position of no increase in the debt ceiling- cut the spending NOW. It pointed out the seriousness of the underlying problem, and it was a view on one end of the spectrum when it came to “each side compromising” time.
But, the Alinskiites with MSM help marginalize them and then exclude them from the calculation, making “compromise” skewed to the L from the beginning.
Rahm Emanuel also made big bucks from Fannie or Freddie. They were places to reward loyal party soldiers.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:45 pmIt’s been fun, but almost pumpkin time in Eastern Daylight Savings Time. G’night, ya’ll. (Southern Australian)
MD in Philly (16129d) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:45 pm“I think it was good that a number of folk took the position of no increase in the debt ceiling- cut the spending NOW. It pointed out the seriousness of the underlying problem, and it was a view on one end of the spectrum when it came to “each side compromising” time.”
MD in Philly – I think the whole thing succeeded in shifting the terms of the debate and exposed the lack of seriousness on the part of the left about fiscal responsibility. I agree that starting from a no increase position was a good thing, but see no violation of principles in where we wound up given only control of 1/3 of the government.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:50 pmAnd our National Security advisor, Donilon, our Asst SEcretary of State Nides, it was like a ‘resume enhancer’
ian cormac (81c5c2) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:52 pmThe left will slander Palin or anyone in the GOP by any means.
DohBiden (d54602) — 8/18/2011 @ 8:52 pmAgreed, daley. ‘night
MD in Philly (16129d) — 8/18/2011 @ 9:11 pmSteve S. is objectively, subjectively a racist troll — irregardless of any claims he has made to the contrary.
Icy Texan (7760bd) — 8/18/2011 @ 9:19 pmIs it possible for young people to go senile?
DohBiden (d54602) — 8/18/2011 @ 9:20 pmComment by Steve S. — 8/18/2011 @ 5:44 pm
I would suggest, Sir, that you have your hearing checked.
There were no “anti-semetic” notes in that passage of mine, just a comment that the Nobel Peace Prize Cmte seems to place a higher value on politics than on actual accomplishment.
I find no such glaring results in awards by the other cmte’s, particularly in the “hard” sciences.
I think, Sir, you owe me an apology!
Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (52c114) — 8/18/2011 @ 9:31 pmI am NOT calling everyone here a racist as evidenced by the fact that I have not called everyone here a racist.
Comment by Steve S. — 8/18/2011 @ 7:15 pm
Is calling someone a racist different than calling them an anti-semite?
Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (52c114) — 8/18/2011 @ 9:35 pmA guy who recently interviewed him and wrote an in-depth upcoming article about David Axelturf and the Obama 2012 organization was himself interviewed on our local PBS station earlier tonight. I was doing other stuff and only listening with half an ear but I picked up 2 kind of interesting themes.
1. Axelrod admitted their communication has had too little focus and no consistent administration wide theme almost throughout the entire O presidency. In contrast, Axe said the republicans have had a basic story and stuck to it. “Some people may not like the Republican message” he said, “but they are up front and there is no question what the message is and where they stand. A lot of people don’t know where the Democrats stand. We have to fix that.”
2. According to the reporter, after leaving the West Wing and returning to Chicago at the beginning of the year, Axelrod had planned to decompress from the rarefied DC bubble, and do a lot of on ground state by state research and analysis to get the current lay of the land and take the pulse of the electorate– and how it has changed since 2008. Instead, there has been one crisis after another and he is still on the phone with the Obama WH several times a day helping put out fires. Additionally, they are contending with 6-8-10 potential R candidates with no clear front runner and they (Axelrod team) are like keystone cops trying to keep up with all the R campaign appearances, photo ops and oppo research without really knowing whom they should concentrate on, cut ads about, or if the final R candidate is even on the radar yet. The reporter painted it as kind of a chicken running around with its head cut off mentality at Obama re-election HQ right now. (Poor babies, I thought.)
elissa (69edf1) — 8/18/2011 @ 9:36 pmComment by DohBiden — 8/18/2011 @ 8:52 pm
Stopped off at the market on the way back from a meeting, and the front page of The Globe has Sarah Palin and a graphic saying “she smoked crack here (arrow)”.
Axelrod is in full fury!
Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (52c114) — 8/18/2011 @ 9:41 pmelissa – It’s always a communications issue! If only they could get the stupid American public to understand the brilliance of their plans they’d have it made.
I think we’ve heard this one before.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/18/2011 @ 9:44 pmGarafalo is an actress.
contention at best
ColonelHaiku (d1f5ff) — 8/18/2011 @ 9:49 pmher greasy unkemptness wreaks
of je ne sais quoi
I’ve heard this speech before, somewhere.
Oh, yeah, here it is.
Smock Puppet, Facepalm Expert (c9dcd8) — 8/18/2011 @ 9:50 pmIt is an unfortunate fact that it has become obscured in our society that one can make a statement which is racial without it being racist.
The two are NOT one and the same, despite the hue and cry of the race baiters and the race-card playing charlatans.
A statement that us utterly true, regarding race, can be made: Sickle-cell anemia is far more prevalent among black people than among white people.
But to make an opposite statement: There are indications that black people are apparently more likely to contract AIDS than white people.
Well, the latter is just racist, ya know? That there appears to be a strong connection between AIDS and The Black Plague, and white people (from Europe) are generally likely to have many ancestors who survived the Black Plague, and perhaps gained a measure of resistance by that fact to The Black Plague, and hence, AIDS — well, don’t you know you’re clearly a racist just for bringing up The Black Plague in this context?
The goal is to put you on the defensive. The trick is to not accept the position they’ve assigned to you. This flabbergasts the hell out of them and leaves them spluttering and discommoded to no end.
“You have a role in my little scenario. Now take it and shut up and play your part.”
Smock Puppet, Facepalm Expert (c9dcd8) — 8/18/2011 @ 10:02 pmYa know, there’s an old joke:
Q: How many graduate students does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: First, define your terms.
In a room full of mostly-reasonable people, I tend to doubt that you could find any three who share a common functional definition of what they really mean by terms like “racism” and “racist.” Especially if they began to tease out the logical implications of what their personal definition entailed.
Some time I’d like to see a discussion thread about racial conflicts/questions that proposed a couple of various reasonable definitions of these terms, and see which people agreed/subscribed with which definitions, so everyone could get a clearer grip on what it is they’re discussing. I think that sort of conversation would run less of a risk of turning into a melee if it could be figured out in advance, and might generate more insight.
That being said… RACISTS!
d. in c. (e6215e) — 8/18/2011 @ 10:11 pmYour remarks about what MLK would have wanted recall this editorial cartoon:
http://alturl.com/mr45v
Scott (9ef93d) — 8/19/2011 @ 12:19 amto believe Obama was more ready for the job than he evidently was—was a deviation from Martin Luther King’s dream
I’m left wondering…at which point does the deviation become the norm? not just with Obama, but with the rest of the political class and even everyday life.
I R A Darth Aggie (9e9ecf) — 8/19/2011 @ 6:34 amStashiu3:
And Dustin:
And Simon Jester:
I’m astounded that you all seem unaware of the fact that Chris pointed out. This is not controversial, and the studies and scientists pointing to that fact are only “disreputable” among the far-left PC irrationalists who believe that there is no objective reality, that science is merely a “patriarchal narrative”, that we choose or reject on political grounds.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/19/2011 @ 7:54 amBS, Milhouse.
There are plenty of brilliant blacks, and thus Chris’s attempt to analyze attribute A based on attribute B, or explain why all blacks behave a certain way, were both completely irrational.
Just look directly at the individual trait. Race is a very, very poor proxy.
And you’re 100% wrong to claim the problem is not cultural but rather genetic (which appears to be why you quoted me). Take a few generations of people without fathers and you will have problems, no matter what other attributes they possess.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:00 amAnd it’s tiresome to claim whatever is controversial is ‘not controversial’ just because you agree with your extremely controversial side of the argument.
If you don’t know what was wrong with the methodology of those racial intelligence tests, you need to go to your high school or college and request a refund.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:01 amNot a fact. It’s bullshit. All other things being equal, there is no racial difference in intelligence. Again, no reputable study claims otherwise no matter how “not controversial” you contend it is.
I’m hardly a far-left PC irrationalist.
Stashiu3 (601b7d) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:01 amThere are indeed plenty, and nobody has disputed that. But there are far fewer as a proportion of the black population, than there are white ones as a proportion of the white population. And that is because intelligence is mostly hereditary and is distributed on a bell curve, and as Chris wrote, “the average black IQ is one standard deviation lower than the white IQ (85 vs. 100)”. His speculation as to the reason why this is so is probably wrong, but whatever the reason it remains a fact.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:02 amstepping out before I get banned
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:03 amNobody has claimed that “all blacks behave a certain way”. But the only thing “wrong with the methodology of those racial intelligence tests” is that the high priests of the left deemed them heretical. And Stashiu3, the fact that you call the hard evidence of racial difference in intelligence “disreputable” is evidence that you are or have fallen under the spell of a far-left PC irrationalist.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:08 amUm, I hadn’t read that far down when I wrote my previous comments. This makes no sense. What we need to restore is the supremacy of the so-called “white” values that were universally respected before the ’60s, but were never then regarded as “white”, because they’re not. They’re universal values, and that’s why they need to be restored to the supremacy they’ve lost in some sectors due to being falsely characterised as “white”.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:14 amI haven’t seen hard evidence Milhouse. Have you? Nobody has presented any, despite the apparent all-pervasive nature of what you are claiming. You guys made the assertion, I call bullshit. Put up or shut up.
Stashiu3 (601b7d) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:16 amFrederick Douglass, for instance, did not “understand he was in an inferior position to whites”, or “strive to emulate white behavior to the best that he could”. He recognised the universal values that promote success, and strove to acquire them, not because they were “white” but because they were good. In improving himself he didn’t become “white”, any more than his white admirers, in striving to emulate him, were trying to become “black”.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:21 amStashiu3, just read anything about IQ. But for a specific example, pulled out of the air because it’s the first thing that comes to mind, The Bell Curve by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray. Surely you won’t suggest that they’re not reputable.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:24 amNo wonder. We’re done.
Stashiu3 (601b7d) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:27 amHe did say “even wiki”, and he said that for an obvious reason. Wikipedia is a swamp of PC, and that sort of disclaimer is to be expected. It’s like listening to NPR; you need a red filter. The amazing thing is that despite this bias, the Wikipedia article does present the facts.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:29 am“The Bell Curve by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray”
It got rave reviews on Storm Front.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:30 amIf you think Murray is not a reputable person then I’m afraid we are done. I’m disappointed.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:31 amAnd therefore?
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:31 amAnd indeed nobody does doubt this. Nice straw man. Trying out for Kman’s job?
No, it is not. Heredity is a far greater factor in intelligence than all other factors combined. There is no escaping this fact, nor is there any reason to want to escape it in the first place, except PC dogma.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:34 amMilhouse – The conclusions of the Bell curve are much like the conclusions of the AGW alarmists. Observable data is available to interpret. People debate the quality of the data. Much like the AGW debate, assumptions about correlation and causation are made to reach the conclusions of the authors. The conclusions regarding heredity are not hard science, IMHO.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:40 amYeah, me too.
From the link above.
Find something that actually supports what you claim. Also, if you’re going just by IQ tests, you’re lost from the get-go.
Another assertion without evidence. “All other factors combined”? It is to laugh. Except I’m not. Disappointed is not the word.
Stashiu3 (601b7d) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:42 amYou know what? I’ll be back later. Ignorance pisses me off. If imdw shows up, I’ll clean up when I get back.
Stashiu3 (601b7d) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:44 amIt’s called admission against interest. If WP admits it then it’s likely to be true.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:44 am“If you think Murray is not a reputable person then I’m afraid we are done.”
Milhouse – You were done before you started. You don’t understand the limitations of their work.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:48 amI suspect you have encountered a wall without a gate. I would not waste much time knocking. The master race idea that one is special and superior just by birth, with no work, effort, or achievement needed, is heady wine. It has always had a strong following. Look at the racism and racial superiority ideas common in Mensa.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:49 amYou’re confusing the science prizes, which actually mean something, with the political prizes (peace and literature), which don’t.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:49 amAnd yet in those same periods they gave so many Nobel prizes to Jews. Funny, that.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:51 amMilhouse – Will black people on average always have lower IQ’s than white people according to your thinking?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:54 amOf course there are. Who has said otherwise?
That depends on how much other information you have. If skin colour is the only information you have about him, then it is better than nothing. On the basis of skin colour alone you can form a very rough and imprecise first approximation to an educated guess about his intelligence. If you fail to modify that assessment on the receipt of further information, then you’re a fool.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:55 amProbably. Just as, on average, black people will always be better than white people at various sports. Of course, this only holds for as long as there are “white people” and “black people”; gene pools are not exactly stable, and there’s no reason for them to be. The particular gene pools we call “black people” and “white people” aren’t all that old.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/19/2011 @ 8:58 amSo mixing will degrade the white gene pool and pollute the race, lowering intelligence? I’ve heard that before.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:04 amThe amount of willful ignorance displayed on this thread is astounding.
I know everyone will agree with me.
Pious Agnostic (291f9a) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:04 am“I’ve heard that before.”
Machinist – That sounds familiar to me as well.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:06 amUm, how is this “lumping all blacks into the same category”? Would you be happier with “there is a higher prevalence of ethnocentrism and collectivism among blacks than among whites”? Or “blacks are more likely than whites to be ethnocentrist or collectivist”? Because that’s what his sentence means, to any reader not looking for an excuse to jump on him.
That bit about “supremacy”, though, is definitely off. I think he meant that the values which modern urban black culture has falsely labeled “white” are superior and should be elevated to the position of supremacy they once held among people of all races. But if so, the words he used to express it were very poorly chosen.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:08 amGene pools change. They always have and they always will. There’s nothing special about them, and no reason to freeze them at any particular point.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:09 amLiterature, too, though the politics are different. The other prizes are still unpoliticised.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:12 amI am a little cautious about assuming “willful”. As with man made global warming there is a lot of authoritative sounding material out there and people of good will and good intentions can be misled. I hope that is the case here.
Master race BS is easy to sell to the uneducated as an excuse for lack of achievement, just as black victimology is an easy sell for the same reason, but there is also an appeal to the more educated. Vanity is not class restricted.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:12 amNo, Milhouse. The only the wrong here is that you are too lazy to read anything. The studies you’re relying on or the argument they have been used to justify.
It is not PC to reject stupid arguments. PC dogma is annoying, and one good reason to get over race. If you want to study fatherlessness and its impact on someone’s abilities, then maybe you’re getting somewhere.
This genetic nonsense just isn’t accurate. It’s not willful ignorance born of sensitivity. It’s truth.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:13 amJaneane Goddamnman looks like a man.
DohBiden (d54602) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:14 amRather “the only thing wrong here”
But I’m heading out. It’s not worth it. Might as well argue with a brick wall.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:14 amLOL. This is also known as “pulling a wild hair out of your ass and seeing which way it curls”.
“Rough,” “imprecise,” and “approximation” all signify that this “educated guess” is anything but.
Chuck Bartowski (4c6c0c) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:14 amMachinist — 8/19/2011 @ 9:12 am
You proved wrong a statement of mine I thought was unfalsifiable, so good for you!
I agree with what you wrote.
Pious Agnostic (291f9a) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:19 amThank you, Sir.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:20 am==I think he meant that== Comment by Milhouse — 8/19/2011 @ 9:08 am
Isn’t it nice of M. to try to interpret for everybody the mind and nonsensical words of a different commenter who was put into moderation last night for hijacking the thread about political campaign racism and for insulting the intelligence of other commenters with his mishmash of conflicting “thoughts”?
elissa (7b8af7) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:25 am“But the only thing “wrong with the methodology of those racial intelligence tests” is that the high priests of the left deemed them heretical. irrationalist.”
I would say the major thing wrong with them is to consider them hard science about intelligence characteristics of various ethnic groups over time.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:25 am-Comment by elissa — 8/19/2011 @ 9:25 am-
Trying that hard weakened his own case, didn’t it?
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:29 amI am not going to make assumptions about someone’s good will, I already made an ass of myself once that way recently and that is not something I need to work at, but I do know some reasonable and honorable people that have been taken in by what I regard as junk science. Unfortunately it is easier to make a strong case in junk science as you are not bound to consider and account for data that weakens your hypothesis. Everything can be so tidy and sewn up.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:33 amMachinist, I am glad you brought up Mensa. I recommend “Densa,” instead: the organization of people who don’t care to brag or take seriously numbers from standardized tests.
Simon Jester (10d642) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:38 amEveryone,
Working pro bono in the New Orleans Parrish School District as an adhoc financial advisor in the 80’s – I can give an opinion that the Bell curve is factually accurate but factually premature. that there really are not any flaws in the analysis except for the part that IQ cannot be accurately tested and is as flawed instrument as drawing any premanent conclusions over the book
In other words, don’t give up the human spirit, the will of the individual exists in everyone and is triggered differently under circumstances that the best in education still struggle to determine.
EricPWJohnson (0b1e7c) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:40 amHave you heard of the Mensa Problem?
Two Mensa members are arguing a point.
“Look, I’m a very smart person, so I’m probably right. You are also a very smart person, so I can’t see why you don’t see that I’m right!”
Pious Agnostic (291f9a) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:40 am“IQ tests are updated periodically. For example, the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children (WISC), originally developed in 1949, was updated in 1974, in 1991, and again in 2003. The revised versions are standardized to 100 using new standardization samples. In ordinary use IQ tests are scored with respect to those standardization samples. The only way to compare the difficulty of two versions of a test is to conduct a study in which the same subjects take both versions. Doing so confirms IQ gains over time. The average rate of increase seems to be about three IQ points per decade in the US on tests such as the WISC.”–wiki
I.Q. tests are a good rough measure of smarts…but, they’re hardly conclusive.
Are people actually getting 3 I.Q. points smarter (because of genetic factors) per decade?
Most likely not, IMO.
Racists could well be right when they assert that East Asians are genetically more intelligent than European types (because they score higher on I.Q. tests), but I suspect that, like the 3 I.Q. points per decade rise, that this has more to do with enviroment and culture than it does with genetic factors.
Dave Surls (4bf575) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:41 amWell put, EPWJ.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:45 amNo. It is an assessment that is significantly more likely to be right than wrong. If you make that guess 10000, and each time bet $1 on it, you’ll make money. But you’ll make a whole lot more money if you have more information on which to base your assessment, and modify it as that information comes in.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:49 amI believe there are two controversial premises here,
1.) Blacks are less intelligent.
2.) The reason is genetic.
Regarding #1 I don’t think you can say more than that they score lower on tests. I am not qualified to judge that but I think IQ is only a measure of a potential, not ability.
As for #2, even if #1 is correct and true, I think this is a much harder contention to support. There are far more significant factors effecting #1 to make #2 believable without far more hard data about this aspect. I don’t buy it.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/19/2011 @ 9:53 am“Rough and imprecise” are not synonymous with “significantly more likely to be right than wrong”.
Look, you’ve painted yourself into the corner on this issue. Bow out gracefully.
Chuck Bartowski (4c6c0c) — 8/19/2011 @ 10:00 amDENIERS OF PSEUDO SCIENCE !!!!!!!!!!!!
JD (0d2a1c) — 8/19/2011 @ 10:00 amPlease assure me that the stuff from Center for Science in the Public Interest is still OK though. It is– isn’t it JD?
elissa (7b8af7) — 8/19/2011 @ 10:07 amMovie popcorn butter kills, elissa. It is a true, but sad fact.
JD (b98cae) — 8/19/2011 @ 10:17 am249.Have you heard of the Mensa Problem?
Two Mensa members are arguing a point.
“Look, I’m a very smart person, so I’m probably right. You are also a very smart person, so I can’t see why you don’t see that I’m right!”
Comment by Pious Agnostic
This could start a number of variations, “Maybe you’re not so smart after all, you can’t see why I’m right”.
MD in Philly (4630a3) — 8/19/2011 @ 10:31 amExtended discussions on intelligence, particularly within a racial construct, quickly become very dumb.
Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (091496) — 8/19/2011 @ 10:44 am“It is an assessment that is significantly more likely to be right than wrong.”
Just like global warming.
1. The earth “appears” to be getting warmer.
2. Mankind is the direct cause of that warming.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/19/2011 @ 12:07 pm#248 – EPWJ said that he suffers from premature factualization?
That would explain much about him.
Icy Texan (57ba59) — 8/19/2011 @ 4:14 pmAre you sure he didn’t mean prremature scuzzafavajaculation?
DohBiden (d54602) — 8/19/2011 @ 4:35 pmSpeaking mathematically, racial constructs are “fucking retarded”.
[note: fished from spam filter. –Stashiu]
CliveStaples (963fef) — 8/19/2011 @ 4:42 pmJust for the record… I’m in Mensa.
*taps foot at Machinist and considers calling the Harper*
Stashiu3 (601b7d) — 8/21/2011 @ 10:16 am“Just for the record… I’m in Mensa.”
Stashiu3 – I will alert the media.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/21/2011 @ 10:29 amJust a possibility:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Densa
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 8/21/2011 @ 10:46 amThat was for Sir Mac really. I just meant that it’s not a “common” attitude in Mensa as far as I know. No worries, I’ll go back to lurking.
Stashiu3 (601b7d) — 8/21/2011 @ 10:48 am“That was for Sir Mac really.”
Stashiu3 – Oh well. Just trying help you get some well deserved props. Ima giver.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/21/2011 @ 11:01 amThere is no way a science-denier racist troglodyte could be in MENSA.
concerned christian conservative (85b089) — 8/21/2011 @ 11:06 amWhich sorta explains why you’re not there, doesn’t it, imdw?
Darth Venomous (c8614a) — 8/21/2011 @ 12:47 pm______________________________________________
Chronic leftist sentiment will corrupt and corrode any community, black or otherwise, far beyond anything related to the issue of IQ.
I bet if more people in black America started to shake off their sloppy liberal biases, not only would their voting records be less nonsensical (ie, polls indicating that 90-plus percent of the black electorate often is in lock-step with Democrats/leftist politicians), they’d start accepting harsh reality and tough truths as much as Philadelphia’s mayor has done.
The fact that a lot of intellectuals — black, white, Latino, Asian, Jewish, Christian, straight, gay, etc — with high IQs not only would resist what Nutter is pointing out, but would even resent having to acknowledge it as a crucial factor, indicates it’s common sense that’s in short supply throughout both black America and Western society in general, not intelligence.
Mark (411533) — 8/21/2011 @ 1:19 pmWell, Nutter must be “a nutter”, otherwise, how else do you explain all of the positive feedback he’s generated from the conservative side of the sprectrum?
Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (c036f1) — 8/21/2011 @ 1:25 pmNo “authentic” Black Man could ever speak like that.
-Comment by Stashiu3 — 8/21/2011 @ 10:48 am-
“I just meant that it’s not a “common” attitude in Mensa as far as I know.”
I apologize if I am wrong.
What I read about them led me to believe it was present and common in the organization but that was many years ago and as anyone here knows, I am certainly NOT Mensa material so I admit I could be wrong or misled and I bow to your superior knowledge of the group. Your credibility is higher with me than anyone who’s work I read on the subject.
I am not surprised at all that you qualify and I certainly know that you are no racist.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 8/21/2011 @ 1:51 pmOkay, I won’t tell Harper. 😉
I’m sure there’s some of that nonsense, just like anywhere else you go. I’ve never seen it though and would have “issues” with anyone trying to peddle it.
Stashiu3 (601b7d) — 8/21/2011 @ 1:55 pm