More on Biden and His Fat Mouth
Read the title out loud and you’ll get a sense of how I really feel.
The other day I noted how Joe Biden had run his mouth about who killed bin Laden, putting SEAL Team 6 at risk. I said: “there is no way to know whether this was an orchestrated ambush targeting Team 6. But it is an important reminder why it’s not just comedy relief to have cynical glory-seekers and complete buffoons at the highest levels of government.”
Well, the possibility of an orchestrated ambush looks much more likely — as an Afghan official tells the press that’s exactly what happened:
The Taliban lured US forces into an elaborate trap to shoot down their helicopter, killing 30 American troops in the deadliest such incident of the war, an Afghan official said Monday.
. . . .
A senior Afghan government official told AFP on condition of anonymity that Taliban commander Qari Tahir lured US forces to the scene by tipping them off that a Taliban meeting was taking place.
He also said four Pakistanis helped Tahir carry out the strike.
“Now it’s confirmed that the helicopter was shot down and it was a trap that was set by a Taliban commander,” said the official, citing intelligence gathered from the area.
“The Taliban knew which route the helicopter would take,” he continued.
In other words, a Taliban no doubt incensed at bin Laden’s death set up an ambush designed to target exactly the sort of forces that would respond to a report of high value targets.
Did the families fear this? You betcha. Watch at 2:58 as the dad of one of the fallen SEALs goes off Matt Lauer’s feel-good script to lash out at the “sheep” like Biden who put his son at risk:
Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy
You know, it’s really strange, Matt, that 90 some-odd days ago SEAL Team 6 had a big victory, and possibly sheep in high places said things that made many of us very uncomfortable. And now some 90 some-odd days later, SEAL Team 6 has suffered a terrible tragedy. And I just pray that during these last days, these next days, they ‘ll allow SEAL Team 6 — the wives, the children, the families — to grieve, to bury their dead, and not make it political.
Next October when Hollywood is spending tens of millions to release a big “Obama killed bin Laden” movie blockbuster to influence the election, let’s keep in mind what the buffoons — the sheep — like Biden did. Is that me making it political? No, sir. It’s me noting when others do. When morons like Biden run their mouths, they put good men at risk. When the Obama administration decided to release all the information about who killed bin Laden, they put good men at risk.
And for this they should be re-elected?
This is me spitting at that idea.
Thank you for posting this, Patterico. But rest assured that the Usual Suspects will try to handwave and insult and temporize over this.
We all need to be upset enough to make sure we all vote in 2012 to get some adults into the Oval Office. Right?
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 8/8/2011 @ 7:17 pmYou’re not alone in you sentiment.
AD-RtR/OS! (b759aa) — 8/8/2011 @ 7:29 pmGo get ’em, Tiger!
That the Obama Administration in celebration of The One possibly forgot about operational security borders on grounds for impeachment.It would be inexcusable. I’m not prepared to say that is in fact the case, but this is y disturbing. Further that a movie is in the offing to portray Obama as resolute to be released during the campaign gives you the idea that they don’t get understand and may never get the military.Recall during WWII FDR kept the details of Dolittle’s raid on Tokyo to a bare minimum.
Would note the OBL operation went forward only after Obama ducked the decision on 4/29 at the behest of noted military strategist Valerie Jarrett, “slept on it” and played golf while Panetta, Hillary and Gates ran the show.The reality is those 3 people probalb y forced the decision on this jerk.
This man has no business being president. Suspect the Dems are looking for a way to send him packing and get Hillary as their candidate. Any more speeches like today, reruns of the previous mewls of this hack, are going to make that decision a given.
Bugg (ea1809) — 8/8/2011 @ 7:29 pmI do feel pretty bad about any partisan sniping over this terrible loss.
It’s a war. Wars have bad days like this. As a nation, we’ve got to try to see that and drive on with a commitment to win the war. If we can’t, I don’t think the war is justified.
On the other hand, it is so easy to note how Obama and Biden wanted to revel in the success the SEALs earned, and of course that invites them to take direct responsibility for this failure. And after seven years of Bush being blamed directly for everything from Abu Ghraib to friendly fire, it’s stunning how little coverage there is of our expansive war effort.
Yes, I do wonder why MoDo would credit Obama personally on a good day, and not on a bad one.
That movie could be great. I’m glad they are making it. The timing reeks of politicizing our war effort, and that’s a shame.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/8/2011 @ 7:35 pmWell said, Patterico, thank you.
htom (412a17) — 8/8/2011 @ 7:45 pmNot while Patterico has any breath in his body.
Spartacvs (2d9449) — 8/8/2011 @ 7:50 pmHush, sparty.
What names have you commented under?
JD (318f81) — 8/8/2011 @ 7:54 pmHave yu been to Japan recently?
Well said, Mr. Frey.
Spartacvs, you whiny little scum-sucking liberal arts major POS… don’t sound off like you gotta pair, because you know you aren’t even fooling your sad sack self.
Colonelhaiku (d1f5ff) — 8/8/2011 @ 7:58 pmSpvrty supports Biden leaking Operational Security details and death of troops. No condemnations or regret for loss of life from him yet.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/8/2011 @ 8:02 pmAnd again, this is why I revel in joy when liberals in high places drop dead though whatever means visit them …. because they are so cavalier about everyone else’s life, treasure and beliefs.
S. Carter aka J-Z (786e37) — 8/8/2011 @ 8:03 pmspitting?
Blackburnsghost (2ffb0c) — 8/8/2011 @ 8:06 pmThis is me pissing on that idea.
Spartacus how many times did you wince during that interview?
Sorry. Momma’s mad today.
http://barnhardt.biz/
Sheep and Wolves in high places.
JPK (b3ea9b) — 8/8/2011 @ 8:11 pm== so easy to note how Obama and Biden wanted to revel in the success the SEALs earned==
Well said, Dustin. Basking in reflected glory is what weak and unimaginative poseurs do. And now the doers and their families have paid the price. Neither the president or the VP are fit to shine the boots of these dead heroes as far as I am concerned.
elissa (13e9ed) — 8/8/2011 @ 8:22 pmAs tempting (and easy) as it is to blame Obama when things don’t go well, let’s keep a few things in perspective.
I would be surprised if the Taliban hasn’t long sought to set ambushes for our guys. Some have been based on the ruse of getting some Taliban biggie. Some have worked, some haven’t. And this long predates our getting Bin Laden.
It isn’t clear for whom the ambush was being set. Was it for the initial troops sent in the area, or for a helicopter rescue mission that may not have been needed had the initial guys not gotten into trouble? If the former, then getting the helicopter was just some rotten luck.
And if the latter, how/why would the Taliban have known it was Seal Team 6 that would have been coming? There are lots of troops filling the role of cavalry coming to the rescue, there’s nothing written in stone that says that group gets the rescue missions.
I hate having to say this, but if the Taliban knew the route the helicopter was taking, then that was real bad planning/execution on our side. (historical note: we lost lots of B52s over North Vietnam because their routes in were all but advertised). And if there was only way route in to this particular fight, then our guys should have been prepared to deal with the to-be-expected ambush. Was the LZ not sanitized ahead of time, before the big lumbering and unprotected helicopter came in for landing? Somebody screwed up.
And finally, why necessarily believe the Afghan official? For one thing, they’re not necessarily on our side, so they might be making things up to screw with us. Two, when we read of ‘US officials’, we don’t automatically jump to the conclusion that everything the guys says is correct, we (rightfully) are skeptical, that for all we know the source is a REMF who doesn’t know jack and is just trying to score points with the media. And three, how would the guy know the Taliban knew the route? Did the Taliban write down ahead of time what was going to happen? If they lucked into it, why not go ahead and claim they knew what was coming?
And how did Biden put lives at risk, even if he was the first or only one to mention Seal Team 6 in the same breath as Bin Laden? Is there a public Facebook page with everybody in Seal Team 6 on it? That the Taliban could just dial up and check it out? And the Pentagon directory lists where Seal Team 6 is based and on which missions it goes out on?
Let’s not give the Taliban too much credit. They set some type of ambush. This time they got lucky. The next time I hope they get vaporized.
And there’s plenty of stuff to blame Obama and Biden for without making them responsible for this (if in fact that is what you’re trying to do). If I stub my toe in the morning, is that Obama’s fault too?
steve (254463) — 8/8/2011 @ 8:22 pmWell said Steve.
But I think you grabbed the wrong script as far as this place is concerned.
Spartacvs (2d9449) — 8/8/2011 @ 8:28 pmAce (or one of his cob-loggers) had an observation that because the press ordinarily gets to see the caskets, they were able to learn grisly details to justify why they can’t in this case.
It’s just one little thing. Let the military and families have privacy when handling the matter of fallen military.
All of this is more easily explained if you think this administration doesn’t take such matters very seriously.
I agree they are not fit to shine boots. At least Slow Joe’s son served in Iraq, I will grant.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/8/2011 @ 8:30 pmsteve – Do you agree that politicians should not blab Operational Security details of missions such as the one to kill Bin Laden?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/8/2011 @ 8:31 pmsteve – Spvrty obviously doesn’t give a crap about it.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/8/2011 @ 8:32 pmVaughn (the SEAL, not the dad, obviously) has a son named Reagan (sp?). how sweet is that? RIP Mr. Vaughn. May this nation soon be worthy of your valor, once again.
Chris (eafa5f) — 8/8/2011 @ 8:40 pmI expect AQ figured out that it wasn’t the Salvation Army who took out OBL. But if you want to continue making an ass of yourself and trying to tie this tragedy to something Biden might have said, while cheapening the sacrifice of the fallen by dragging them into your need to demonstrate your cheap ideological dislike of this WH. Well, be my guest. It’s a free country after all and the guys in Afghanistan died in part to maintain your right to be a petulant jerk.
Spartacvs (2d9449) — 8/8/2011 @ 8:51 pmYes, this kind of problem, is fraught with special operations, why Neptune Spear was very risky, but
ian cormac (81c5c2) — 8/8/2011 @ 8:57 pmthe upside was worth it. the stories are all over
the place, once again, out of the Tangi Valley, Similar to the way they were eighteen years ago, in
the bazaar in Mogadishu.
Wow. What a callous dismissal of a sincere and urgent request for operational security from this unit and its commanders!
Wow! How did you know it wasn’t another unit? Task force 21. Grey Fox, Delta Force generally, etc?
You didn’t.
You don’t speak for them. And yes, we have the right to criticize Obama and Biden for treating national security like a political football. Especially on Iraq, they look terrible. On Afghanistan, they are losing the way and appear uncommitted to winning.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/8/2011 @ 9:18 pmHush sparty, you petulant little turd. Those who served in OEF and the families of those who gave the ultimate sacrifice neither need nor desire one word of phony solidarity or alleged concern for their well-being from a mealy-mouthed snot like you.
SPC Jack Klompus (07a5ab) — 8/8/2011 @ 9:35 pm“But if you want to continue making an ass of yourself and trying to tie this tragedy to something Biden might have said”
Spvrty – Continue to miss the point all you want. You seem to have no problem with the political gum flappers gum in this Administration violating the Operational Security of our troops and painting bigger targets on their backs. Prove me wrong.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 8/8/2011 @ 9:41 pmThis was ironic:
If you replace “your” with “my own,” you would be spot-on. It’s like you don’t get enough irony in your diet.
On another note:
http://youtu.be/gEmJ-VWPDM4
Simon Jester (51bacd) — 8/8/2011 @ 9:44 pmOver a thousand American servicepeople have now died in Afghanistan under the great leadership of Napoleon Obabamaparte…the guy who was going to correct Bush’s mistakes.
Funny, how the MSM ain’t talking about “grim milestones” too much.
And, it don’t look like we’re making any progress there.
Dave Surls (64a4e9) — 8/8/2011 @ 10:46 pmWho the hell is this Scumicus fucknut? Biden blabs and Scumbagicus can’t see a connection? Not even a possible connection? He thinks they died to protect the rights of petulant jerks? No, it’s petulant jerks-aka “scumbags” they like to kill-and I like to think my tax dollars are paying for the ammo.
Steve (866f07) — 8/8/2011 @ 11:15 pmdirty deeds done dirt cheap.. ask obama
hogtrashhd (d13706) — 8/8/2011 @ 11:32 pmJust remember to take some time to contemplate these guys. The chinook’s crew, those SEALs, and how hard they worked, and all the trials they faced. The SEALs were pulling back to back tours, leaving kids and spouses for long periods of time. It’s a gut wrenching sacrifice.
I hope they all knew how grateful we are.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/8/2011 @ 11:43 pmCheney made a hasty shot and a lawyer suffered some minor injuries from birdshot, biden shot his mouth off and seal team six gets wiped out. The only reason for talking about the raid was to claim credit for getting obl. The truth is that they knew where he was for months and held them back. The only reason he finally let them get him was that the fact that they knew where he was and even had dna evidence was sure to be revealed because hundreds of people had the info.
dunce (8dd87b) — 8/9/2011 @ 12:04 amSpartacus is so squirrely that it’s hard to tell. But I think that I know where he is coming from, and he has a valid point on this one.
This story has become overblown here, just as the superfluous supplement on Anita has overblown that story, also, imo. The sparse number of responses tend to prove it. (But maybe I just need a mug of hot coffee to open my ayes as to what the rational points were here.)
God bless and protect our troops and bring them home safely.
Summit, NJ (75c9eb) — 8/9/2011 @ 12:08 amI noticed The Discovery Channel ran a show tonight called “The Secrets of Seal Team Six”. Idiots.
Noodles (3681c4) — 8/9/2011 @ 12:08 amSteve’s right that Biden’s breach of security is unlikely to have had any connection with this attack. The Taliban probably had no idea which team was on the helicopter, and they’d surely have carried out this operation even if they’d never heard of Team Six. So this blood isn’t on Biden’s head; but that doesn’t change the fact that he had no business saying what he did, and it doesn’t absolve him of the guilt for any future harm that comes to these servicemen as a result.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/9/2011 @ 12:27 amIgnore Biden. He is so obscure that attacking him just makes you look petty (and desperate).
This is just a suggestion, mind you, but if you want to criticize someone effectively, focus on the most conspicuous screw-ups in this current administration, Obama, Clinton, Holder, Napolitano, Panetta and Geithner. They provide so much more fodder for legitimate criticisms, too.
Summit, NJ (75c9eb) — 8/9/2011 @ 12:41 amDaleyrocks #17: I don’t think anyone should blab the details, politicians, ‘intelligence officials’ or anyone else. I was satisfied knowing just that Bin Laden was dead and that our guys got him.
steve (254463) — 8/9/2011 @ 5:05 amObame got bin Laden who by that time was a total nobody with regards to “who matters.” I suspect most of the public already has that figured out.
{^_^}
jbd (99eed4) — 8/9/2011 @ 6:59 amOperational details were provided by political hacks because they didn’t think they would be believed without givin intimate details. They know that they have made politicians untrustworthy by their shrill attacks during the Bush admin. Their own efforts. I completely condemn their efforts to make themselves relevant by further endangering team 6 and their FAMILIES. These poor folks were probably worried about the risk to their progeny when they were killed and this is not acceptable. No apology from ‘loose lips’ Biden either. And it was obvious that Sec Def was PO ed!
Texas Mom 2012 (cee89f) — 8/9/2011 @ 7:36 am“Next October when Hollywood is spending tens of millions to release a big “Obama killed bin Laden” movie blockbuster to influence the election…”
Whatever.
Nothing is going to change the fact that Obama and his crew, unlike our last president, don’t appear to have the slightest idea what they’re doing. Their brilliant campaigns in Afghanistan (over 1,000 Americans killed under Obamba’s brilliant leadership, not to mention hundreds of Coalition troops…and it looks as though NO progress is being made), and Libya (can’t even defeat a fourth rate military) say it all.
Good thing we’re not in a real war or we would probably already have surrendered.
I can hardly wait for November 2012.
Dave Surls (40a36b) — 8/9/2011 @ 7:50 amFor what it’s worth, the Bigelow movie about the hunt for Bin Laden was in the works before he was killed; her follow-up to The Hurt Locker continuing on a similar theme. Reality ended up giving it a more dramatic ending, and it may indeed make the administration look good. But as originally conceived it was certainly not an “Obama got Osama” campaign ad.
LYT (09ae37) — 8/9/2011 @ 8:13 amDo you honestly expect anybody to believe that the timing of the release is a coincidence?
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/9/2011 @ 10:13 amLYT, why was the military surprised Obama gave production of that movie so much access to such a highly classified thing?
It’s like this administration has a habit of not taking opsec seriously if they are interested in some good PR.
And Milhouse is right. The timing is explicitly and obviously political. A mid December release would do really well, too. They should move it back and eliminate the concern. I want the film to be great.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/9/2011 @ 10:16 amMilhouse – nobody here that’s for sure, but then that’s the problem with this whole Biden is responsible charge Patterico is pushing isn’t it? The echo chamber believes it because the echo chamber believes what they are told to believe. Otherwise you are ostracized.
Spartacvs (4576a2) — 8/9/2011 @ 10:19 amThe echo chamber believes it because the echo chamber believes what they are told to believe. Otherwise you are ostracized.
More lies.
SPQR (26be8b) — 8/9/2011 @ 10:21 amI think he’s grasping for Plato’s ‘Metaphor of the Cave’, in a vain attempt at relevance,
ian cormac (81c5c2) — 8/9/2011 @ 10:32 amPatterico, I still do not buy the govt explanation-the so-called set-up of our finest to be murdered. Why were they all together on a National Guard Helo?
Today, the remains are brought back here, and yet, they were not able to identify because they were ripped to shreds. Now, how did the press know before the family were informed, that it was Team 6, who got murdered? And why did our govt give the enemy a feather in the victory cap, by announcing to the world that our Team 6 was murdered in that chopper. Why is there no secrecy, or were they offered on the altar so the coward can ct and run before election?
Something stink rotten!
Also, all of us need to get together and boycott this propaganda flick coming out, making him look like a man, when he has no balls!?
Can you get the ball rolling???
Lastly, I know this movie is to get their man child re-elected, but we know better, since when do we allow leftist moviemakers to get access to the highest intelligence info, CIA, DOD? Are there no men left to put a stop to this nonsense?
cali (9396f2) — 8/9/2011 @ 2:21 pmWill they protray how our Seal Team 6 was murdered, and why, or does the movie has a happy ending with the man child having a helo, and a cape being the ‘gutsy, couregous thing’ ever invented since sliced bread?
I am so disgusted, our men, and women deserve the truth, respect, and honor, and these freaks making our heroes small, so their man child can get elected.
It’s Obama’s call. I agree this is ridiculous. This was a triumph and we shouldn’t give up too many details about it.
It amazes me we gave up anything at all. We should have demolished the building with explosives and used the confusion for the war effort.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/9/2011 @ 2:27 pmHave to agree that the less information released about operations like this, the better, from a security point of view.
Of course, press and public curiosity is always very strong and tough to resist. So is the temptation to extract political value. I recall Richard Nixon holding a White House medal ceremony for key members of the Son Tay raiding party less than a week after the event. The name of the raid’s leader, Col Arthur Simons, was released almost right away and he was one of the medal recipients at Nixon’s ceremony.
Details of the raid, including the fact that it involved Special Forces troops from Ft. Bragg and Eglin AFB, were shared by Defense Dept. sources within days.
Of course, the North Vietnamese had moved the prisoners and the raid came up empty, so the political motive in the Son Tay case was to put the best face on a bad outcome.
I think it would have been better if Biden hadn’t identified the mission’s leader and the Seals in that dinner speech, but I would be much more concerned about disclosure of in-theater operational details related to Team 6 activities in Afghanistan. Absent that, there doesn’t seem to be much reason to see this tragic episode as related to anything Biden or others have said about the mission that took out OBL.
I think Republican political strategists are looking very hard for ways to diminish Obama’s political credit for authorizing the mission. However, I don’t think this tack will bring much of a return, because I don’t think military sources have given or will give it much credence.
angeleno (94f48b) — 8/9/2011 @ 6:19 pmPerhaps you’re right. But it does look like Obama made an unseemly effort to politicize the successful raid. It looked like they were far too concerned with reshaping the story over and over to get the details as pretty for Obama as possible.
I do think a lot of the military noticed that and resents it.
It’s not much of a political winner to blame Obama or Biden directly for the losses, but the fact is Biden should have followed the request to keep those details private. They made that request specifically because of concerns about stuff like this.
And it’s only been three months. I think the Taliban indeed was itching for some kind of victory over the SEALs since that information came out.
It’s as good a time as any to take account of our leadership in this war, and make sure we’re totally committed to winning, or not wasting lives.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/9/2011 @ 6:33 pmOh please, do you even remember ‘Mission Accomplished’.
Spartacvs (2d9449) — 8/9/2011 @ 6:50 pmmission accomplished
ColonelHaiku (d1f5ff) — 8/9/2011 @ 6:53 pmwhen spurty thumb wrestle way
thru whole box Kleenex®
You’re still here Hax? Have you no shame? Silly me, I already know the answer.
Tick tock.
Stashiu3 (44da70) — 8/9/2011 @ 6:54 pmSpartacvs, yep. We remember Bush praising a hardworking military for a successful mission in liberating Iraq – without any attempt to criticize the previous administration’s efforts in Iraq.
SPQR (26be8b) — 8/9/2011 @ 6:54 pmTahir, like Beitullah Mehsud, or Nek Mohammed before him,will eventually be run to ground. Bigelow does show, that she can handle this material, although I would have preferred ‘the
ian cormac (81c5c2) — 8/9/2011 @ 6:54 pmKingdom’s’ Peter Berg,
Now Spartacvs, can you name which nutty Democratic office holder called Team Six Dick Cheney’s assassins?
SPQR (26be8b) — 8/9/2011 @ 6:55 pmMission accomplished might be one of the most disingenuous leftist canards ever.
JD (318f81) — 8/9/2011 @ 7:01 pmStill no answer from Spartacvs on which Democrats called SEAL Team Six “Dick Cheney’s Death Squad” ?
SPQR (26be8b) — 8/9/2011 @ 7:18 pmThat’s what I thought, Spartacvs chickens out.
The answer is Dennis Kucinich again. Who with Seymour Hersh and the main Democratic mysogynist Keith Olbermann labeled SEAL Team Six “Cheney’s Death Squad” after Seymour Hersh published yet another of his fraudulent articles.
The link above? From Democrats.com …
Remember this as the Nutty Spartacvs dishonestly tried to call Bachmann “nutty”.
SPQR (26be8b) — 8/9/2011 @ 7:33 pmComment by JD — 8/9/2011 @ 7:01 pm
‘Taking food out of the mouths of children’ is sufficiently disingenuous to make the list, as well as ‘doing jobs Americans won’t do for themselves’ (which doesn’t play particularly well these days).
We should make a top 10 list.
ropelight (118824) — 8/10/2011 @ 5:38 amBalancing the budget on the backs of those that don’t pay income taxes to begin with …
The rich should pay their fair share …
Racists …
JD (85b089) — 8/10/2011 @ 6:14 amI was more right than I knew, but who is this cat?
The Taliban insurgents responsible for shooting down a U.S. helicopter in Afghanistan — killing 30 Americans — have been killed in an airstrike, U.S. Gen. John Allen said Wednesday.
“The strike killed Taliban leader Mullah Mohibullah and the insurgent who fired the shot associated with the Aug. 6 downing of the CH-47 helicopter, which resulted in the deaths of 38 Afghan and coalition service members,” NATO said in a statement, Reuters reports.
ian cormac (81c5c2) — 8/10/2011 @ 6:38 amJust thought of something. Contrast the leaks coming out of the Bin Laden attack with the lack of info on the helicopter downing. good news gets talked about, bad news is hushed up.
steve (369bc6) — 8/10/2011 @ 6:52 amUnless someone tells me otherwise with good reason, I look to Blackfive for commentary on things military. Here:
(http://www.blackfive.net/main/2011/08/a-helicopter-in-afghanistan.html#comments)
they comment and discuss this.
Apparently there seems good reason to believe it was a trap, but little reason to believe that SEAL Team 6 was specifically targeted. Biden is well known for his verbal mistakes, and the admin is known for politicizing for their benefit, but I doubt any direct cause and effect relation here.
If the enemy knows the whereabouts and activities of SEAL Team 6 in real time there is a much bigger problem than Biden flapping his mouth. The enemy knows enough to expect how we use special ops, knows what part of the terrain will allow the passage of helicopters, knows that choice of aircraft is limited by the altitudes encountered, etc., etc. Blackfive comments that from one perspective “we are lucky” this doesn’t happen more often. I heard/read there was a similar event last week, but the RPG hit the bottom of the Chinook and deflected, rather than the side and impacted, but since no one was killed we don’t hear about things like that.
I guess we need to develop “Stealth” helicopters that can fly faster at high altitudes.
MD in Philly (4630a3) — 8/10/2011 @ 7:11 amA follow up, post, makes me feel more reassured:
The strike killed Taliban leader Mullah Mohibullah and the insurgent who fired the shot associated with the Aug. 6 downing of the CH-47 helicopter, which resulted in the deaths of 38 Afghan and coalition service members. Mullah Mohibullah was a key facilitator in an insurgent attack cell led by Din Mohammad, a Taliban leader killed in a previous Special Operations mission. As a leader in Mohammad’s network in Tangi valley, Mohibullah had as many as 12 Taliban fighters under his command, including potential suicide bombers
ian cormac (81c5c2) — 8/10/2011 @ 7:19 amMD, the helicopter that was damaged in the Osama bin Laden raid and left behind was reported to be a ‘stealth’ model. Since it was blown-up by our retreating troops I couldn’t tell if it differed from the birds in our existing fleet, or if the reports of a new stealthy helicopter were true.
Call me old fashioned, but I’ve got to see it before I’m willing to take anything I read about military hardware from MSM as fact.
ropelight (118824) — 8/10/2011 @ 9:27 amSays the man who supported the flight suit wearing doofus who allowed bin Laden to escape at Tora Bora.
Somehow, even without the ridiculous cause/effect you posit — the infinitesimal chance that Biden’s remarks reached (in Farsi or Pushto) the Taliban (not AQ, mind you, but Arabs or Central Asians, they’re all Greek to you) in their 13th century hovels and they immediately started following these people around to attack them —
that you STILL would not support the re-election of the current administration. After all, you are clearly one step away from blaming Obama and Biden from it raining on your family picnic.
Look at the bright side, as soon as the Romney administration is sworn in, you can go back to outing CIA operatives and torturing people!
timb (449046) — 8/10/2011 @ 11:18 amI fart in your general direction. You are pathetic.
JD (109425) — 8/10/2011 @ 11:24 amAfter all, you are clearly one step away from blaming Obama and Biden from it raining on your family picnic
Well, Obama claimed to be able to control ocean levels. between making it rain and controlling the oceans, rain is probably the easier of the two.
ropelight- yes, i don’t believe the MSM on much of anything until verified, though by some quirk I often forget that, which is why I look to Blackfive for all things military.
MD in Philly (4630a3) — 8/10/2011 @ 4:23 pmWhat an evil attitude.
If you blame Bush for fog of war, do you blame Obama for the casualties we have suffered in Afghanistan? There are so many of them.
BTW, it is amusing that you talk about going back to practices we engage in today. This is an administration that outed leadership in sensitive positions and hunts down whistleblowers. It’s ramped up many of the abuses the left criticized Bush for, and the left ignoring that aspect often seems to greatly undermine their credibility on anything. It’s politics with national security, and it’s frustrating.
I noticed you try to distinguish between the Taliban and AQ. Why? You also pretend our enemies are totally incapable of having internet access or exposure to the English language, despite proven efforts to reach out to homegrown jihadists.
The fact is Biden and the rest of that administration should have kept their fat mouths shut. It’s serious, and leadership starts at the top.
Bashing Romney for torture is pretty damn amusing, though.
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MD, it’s great to hear from you. Long time no read.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/10/2011 @ 4:28 pmThanks Dustin, been busy (summertime is for working on the exterior of our 100+yo house…). Stopped by here and Powerline on the occasion of recall vote in Wisconsin to see what there is to be seen.
MD in Philly (4630a3) — 8/10/2011 @ 4:41 pmComment by MD in Philly — 8/10/2011 @ 7:11 am
More Osprey’s!
Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (7f4436) — 8/10/2011 @ 4:44 pmComment by timb — 8/10/2011 @ 11:18 am
When you Solo in a Century-Series fighter, you can wear that flight suit too.
Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (7f4436) — 8/10/2011 @ 4:46 pmAD’s right. Bush did actually earn the right to wear the uniform. I wish he had kept his civies on… it’s just our way to have civilian leadership, but he wasn’t pretending to be an Air Force pilot.
When you look over Bush’s speech that day, once again you’re struck by how honest he is. He says what he’s all about, what the price of his choices are, and how hard the road is. And yes, he recognizes accomplishments of the military.
The Iraq triumph is fundamentally greater than the Osama Bin Laden one (though that is also a great and hard earned one). I get kinda sore when I recall Bush. We need politicians like him who will ruin their own reputation and spend every penny of political good will if it accomplishes something.
Dustin (b7410e) — 8/10/2011 @ 4:52 pmThe mission accomplished canard is one of the most fundamentally dishonest that the left pushes’ since they do not understand on a basic level what a military mission entails.
JD (92e366) — 8/10/2011 @ 4:58 pmAlso, the Navy prefers all personnel embarking on an over-water flight (the Lincoln was a couple hundred miles off-shore) to wear a flight suit that contains certain survival items that might come in handy in the event the bird has to get wet.
Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (7f4436) — 8/10/2011 @ 4:58 pm#65 – Your ignorance is stunning. Obviously you don’t know [anything] about the issues which you raised, and in your defensiveness to compensate for your ignorance, you are belligeent and obnoxious, a typical liberal.
Summit, NJ (75c9eb) — 8/11/2011 @ 2:54 am* belligerent *
Summit, NJ (75c9eb) — 8/11/2011 @ 2:58 amTimb and spartacus never have any of their facts straight, and with good reason: They make them up as they go along, embellishing on lies with more lies.
They don’t know squat about these issues. Like spiteful, bratty, little kids, their sole intent is to be disruptive, because they feel so left out ans so insecure, so inferior, so inadequate and so stupid.
Summit, NJ (75c9eb) — 8/11/2011 @ 3:09 am* and *
Summit, NJ (75c9eb) — 8/11/2011 @ 3:10 amSince timb brought up the Plame thing, let’s quickly run through the facts:
1. The person who told Novak that Joe Wilson’s wife worked for the CIA was not a White House insider. Novak said this on the day that it became an issue, and we now know that it was true.
2. To this day we do not know whether that was meant to be a secret. The CIA has refused to say so, and has refused to provide the information that would lead to that conclusion. The CIA representative who asked Novak not to publish it seems not to have known it was meant to secret, or he wouldn’t have just taken no for an answer. Andrea Mitchell seems to have known it before the so-called “leak”.
3. If it was meant to be a secret, nobody at the White House knew this. As far as everyone in the WH was concerned, their only interest was in Wilson, whom Nick Kristof claimed had been sent to Africa by the Vice President, and had reported back to him. Since neither the VP nor anybody else at the WH had ever heard of him or his mission, they naturally asked the CIA WTH. The CIA replied that the VP had asked them to look into the Niger rumours, so they had sent Wilson. On further inquiry as to why they’d sent him instead of one of their own, they replied that his wife got him the job. And that’s the first anyone in the WH heard of Mrs Wilson. They didn’t even know her name; all they knew about her was that she worked for the CIA, and was therefore in a position to get her husband sent on a junket.
4. Since nobody at the WH had any idea that it was supposed to be a secret that Mrs Wilson worked for the CIA (if indeed it was a secret, which we’re only guessing), there couldn’t have been a conspiracy to reveal it. Someone at the WH does seem to have told several journalists about it, in order to explain who the hell Wilson was and why he’d gone on this mission, but Novak was not one of them, and none of the people he told thought it interesting enough to publish it.
5. Armitage, who had no idea any of this was going on, and who was the very opposite of a WH insider, learned about Mrs Wilson’s employment independently, from a source in the State Dept. He thought this was a juicy bit of gossip to pass on to Novak, who thought it was interesting enough to be worth a brief mention in print. If it was meant to be a secret, neither of them had any idea.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 8/11/2011 @ 4:15 amWell there are some interesting detail, that have rarely being focused on, Armitage and Novak were both opposed to the Iraq War, although the former
ian cormac (81c5c2) — 8/11/2011 @ 5:34 amhad been on the board of CACI, one of those firms
that made out big, in the early part of the war, until they ran aground at Abu Ghraib. Armitage, had been aided in a slander suit, by Libby, many years earlier, just goes to show you no ‘good deed goes on punished’. Wilson had been in partnership with one of the Alamoudi clan, one of those resourceful Yemeni business, tied to Tom Kean, late of the 9/11 campaign, Hillary’s campaign, and another likeminded Saudi ‘dissident’s charitable endeavors’
Short version, unless the people who know what I don’t have very good reasons, I think the people who enabled Plame to make her claims and get away with it should be tried for treason, as they willfully undermined the ability of the government to govern. This was either the CIA version of the Keystone Cops or a Marx Brothers movie, or the acting out of some political thriller novel.
MD in Philly (4630a3) — 8/11/2011 @ 7:10 amEither way, the bottom line was Plame and Wilson and the Left succeeded in covering up “Wilsongate” by a pre-emptive assault on the truth and the admnistration.
Of course all only my opinion.
NewsBusted’s Jodi Miller noted that Joe Biden had referred to the TEA Party as “terrorists.” Sure, she responded, Al Qaeda’s been trying to save America’s credit rating by calling for reduced spending.
ropelight (ffa587) — 8/11/2011 @ 7:29 amDon’t get your ‘Joe Wilsons’ confused. Valerie Plame’s husband is the lying Joe Wilson, and South Carolina’s Joe Wilson is the Congressman who called Barack Obama a liar. (The following is excerpted from Bryan Preston’s article, 8/10/11, at the PJ Tatler)
‘You Lie!’ — Joe Wilson Was Right
On Sept. 9, 2009, President Barack Obama delivered a major address on the subject of his health care reform bill, which at that time had not passed Congress. The president declared in that speech, delivered before a joint session of Congress and entire nation on television, that ObamaCare would not apply to illegal aliens. Specifically, he said:
AUDIENCE MEMBER: You lie! (Boos.)
The audience member was Rep. Joe Wilson of South Carolina.
And it turns out that Wilson was right all along. The president was lying.
The Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) announced on Tuesday that it has awarded $28.8 million to 67 community health centers with funds from the Obamacare health reform law…
Andrews said that grant recipients will not check the immigration status of people seeking services…
The fact that immigration status will not be checked at these health centers means illegal aliens will be treated, at American taxpayer expense, and in contradiction to what President Obama said. He lied in the service of passing a bill that a majority opposed and which is helping sink the US economy.
ropelight (ffa587) — 8/11/2011 @ 9:12 amThis reporter has a story and photos of a recent night time insertion he was embedded on.
He notes it was one week before the Seal Team disaster
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/infiltration-operation-flintlock-part-ii.htm
SteveG (cc5dc9) — 8/11/2011 @ 11:29 amSEALs were Sent to stop fleeing Taliban
Washington Times, 8/10/11, article by Rowen Scarborough. (bold added)
“The top NATO commander in Afghanistan said Wednesday that the doomed Navy SEALs mission that claimed 30 American lives was intended to stop fleeing Taliban fighters and not necessarily a rescue mission as first reported.
After the crash Saturday, news reports quoted NATO officials as saying commanders dispatched the CH-47 Chinook helicopter with 22 SEALs onboard to rescue an Army Ranger team pinned down by the Taliban…
Instead being pinned down, as NATO officials first said, the Ranger unit was winning the fight and wanted more troops to stop the enemy retreat.
The Washington Times has reported that some in the special operations community are privately critical of the mission. They wonder why so many SEALs were put in one helicopter instead of two. The sources also ask why the command dispatched a CH-47 instead of the special operations version, the MH-47, flown by the highly trained 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment…”
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The MH-47 is an upgraded CH-47 modified to support special operations. The following is from GlobalSecurity.org
“The MH-47 Special Operations Aircraft (SOA) are long-distance, heavy-lift helicopters, which are equipped with aerial refueling capability, a fast-rope rappelling system, and other upgrades or operations-specific equipment. The aircraft are unique to the US Army’s 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne).
The MH-47 aircraft conduct overt and covert infiltrations, exfiltrations, air assault, resupply, and sling operations over a wide range of environmental conditions. The aircraft can perform a variety of other missions including shipboard operations, platform operations, urban operations, water operations, parachute operations, forward aerial refueling point (FARP) operations, mass casualty, and combat search and rescue operations. With the use of special mission equipment and night vision devices, the air crew can operate in hostile mission environments over all types of terrain at low altitudes during periods of low visibility and low ambient lighting conditions with pinpoint navigation accuracy…
Following the events of 11 September 2001, the United States and an allied coalition began operations in Afghanistan as part of Operation Enduring Freedom. Among US and allied military helicopters, the Chinook was the only one that could fly with the full loads of troops and equipment needed for combat assaults over Afghanistan’s high mountains and rugged terrain. The MH-47Es, with long-range fuel tanks, an aerial refueling probe, multimode radar and forward-looking infrared sensors, provided an extra edge for these missions. They could fly nearly 150 miles per hour just a few feet off the ground, at night and in bad weather…”
ropelight (ffa587) — 8/11/2011 @ 2:38 pmHow many stories does it take for DC to get something right?
Another Drew - Restore the Republic / Obama Sucks! (6bc30f) — 8/11/2011 @ 2:50 pmAnd, are they ever right?
Morons, all!
The WT article was discussed at http://www.blackfive.net/
Per “Froggy” and people who know about these things first hand, it is possible that all of the right things were considered and done, given the surrounding circumstances that no one other than those involved would know (such as were the available MH-47E’s on other missions, under maintenance, etc.) and after much soul searching it may just be the fact that sometimes in war bad things happen when/and the enemy gets lucky.
MD in Philly (aa55b4) — 8/11/2011 @ 4:41 pmOne of the important features that makes the MH-47 best suited for Afghanistan is that it carries an onboard oxygen system for the troops which allows it to fly at high altitudes, out of the range of RPG surface fire.
ropelight (ffa587) — 8/11/2011 @ 6:11 pmThe following excerpt is from Michael Filozof’s article, 8/12/11, in The American Thinker.
The Wasted Valor of the Navy SEALs
“…The fact is that the SEALs died in vain, and their valor was squandered by a nation led by incompetents and craven political hacks that have no idea how to win the war in Afghanistan after a decade of trying.
There is something sickeningly wrong with a country that sends it finest, fittest, most disciplined young men into combat for ten years straight while legions of welfare cheats and stock-market Ponzi schemers lounge about and the government borrows trillions from their yet-unborn grandchildren.
There is something sickeningly wrong when honorable, valorous, disciplined, elite men are sent to their deaths by an effete commander-in-chief who spent his own youth not parading at Annapolis, fast-roping out of helicopters, or crawling through the mud under barbed wire during live-fire training exercises, but rather, according to his own admission in his autobiography, smoking marijuana, snorting cocaine, contemplating shooting heroin with a needle, and hanging out with Marxists, radical blacks, and structural feminists so as not to appear to be a “sell-out.”
President Obama could not pass a background check to be a $12-an-hour deputy sheriff in a county jail, let alone become a Navy SEAL, but it is he who commands them to their deaths…”
ropelight (9ee20b) — 8/12/2011 @ 6:46 amI hope the families speak up to demand a full investigation ASAP & that they get on TV to push for answers. Otherwise our lawmakers won’t want to touch that hornet’s nest. I know that an investigation has been ordered but that will take forever & be conducted under the radar. We need a bright light shined on this absolute travesty.
How is it not treasonous to put our brave fighting men in harm’s way either deliberately or with wanton disregard for their lives?
Love American Thinker btw.
Miranda (4104db) — 8/12/2011 @ 7:19 amThanks ropelight for the information you’ve given. I read the latest referenced article and tried to find out something about the author, but couldn’t.
I do not support Obama as a President and think he never should have made a dent in the primaries if his record was examined, but that and whatever politicing he wants to do concerning the deaths does not to me translate into specific condemnation of a specific operation where many died. From reading “Froggy” and others at Blackfive, these kinds of missions are going on all of the time and in one way we are “lucky” it doesn’t happen more often (though our “luck” has a lot to do with skill, training, and equipment).
“Froggy” and the other military and special ops people seem about as upset at journalists who write about this without knowing anything as they are at Obama for the usual reasons.
I think it is hard to know the difference at times between responsible informing and discussing and overboard harping to make a point (I’m not talking about you, I’m talking about journalism in general).
MD in Philly (6adbe0) — 8/12/2011 @ 7:24 amMD, Michael Filozof was a tenure track poly-Sci professor at Monroe Community College in upstate New York. He was dismissed under highly charged political circumstances and has brought suit for wrongful dismissal.
Articles By Michael Filozof in archives of American Thinker:
•The Wasted Valor of the Navy SEALs
ropelight (9ee20b) — 8/12/2011 @ 12:48 pm•The 70-Million-Check Constituency
•The Need For A Militant Conservative Movement
•Does the Death of bin Laden Really Change Anything?
•The Federal Budget and the Crisis of Democracy
•Libya and the Left’s Sickening Hypocrisy on the Use of Military Force
•Why I Changed My Mind About Unions
•Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court’s Dumbest Decision
•The Left, Not the Right, Owns Political Violence
•Is the Republican Party Finished?
•Has U.S. Foreign Policy Ever Been This Screwed Up?
•What Is the Endgame for Conservatives?
•Have the Democrats Learned Anything from Vietnam?
•Israel, the World’s ‘Dirty Harry’
•Elena Kagan and the Yale-Harvard Nexus
•What If Arizona Were Quebec?
•Influence, Corruption, and Misconduct: Albany’s Lesson for America
•It’s Time to Surrender in Afghanistan
•The Truth About Cops and Race
•Obama and the Triumph of the Fabians
•The Stimulus will lead America in the direction of Western New York