Patterico's Pontifications

7/21/2011

ABC News cheerleading for Obama more than Daily Kos pollster

Filed under: General — Karl @ 8:08 pm

[Posted by Karl]

ABC News Political Director Amy Walter and ABC pollster Gary Langer, shaking the pom-poms:

President Obama is holding onto a 7 point lead over his chief Republican rival, Mitt Romney, in the latest ABC News-Washington Post poll.

If the 2012 election were held today, 51 percent of adults said they would pick Obama compared to 44 percent who would support the former Massachusetts governor. (They were tied in early June.) Important to note, however, is that among registered voters, Obama’s lead over Romney narrows to 49 percent to 47 percent. No other Republican challenger fares as well as Romney in head-to-head matchups against the president. http://abcn.ws/nUXx7F

But there’s a bigger take away from the new numbers than just the 2012 horserace.

“Obama looks to have turned the budget debate to his advantage,” writes ABC pollster Gary Langer. “His position on the deficit is more broadly popular, he’s taking less heat than the GOP for unwillingness to compromise and he’s got a sizable lead in the view that he cares more about protecting the middle class.”

So what? Obama’s stance in the debt ceiling talks is all about his re-election campaign. The other metrics don’t matter unless they help Obama’s bottom line. And the bottom line is that the current GOP front-runner is within the margin of error in the head-to-head matchup with registered voters.

Of course, the head-to-head numbers themselves are not particularly predictive this far from an election. Rather, the spin being put out by Langer — and most of the rest of the establishment media — is all about framing a narrative for the race to come. Establishment media polling does not always have this agenda, but it is fairly blatant in this instance.

For example, Langer relies on his poll to claim Obama’s position on the deficit is broadly popular, when the White House boasts that Obama doesn’t have a plan. Meanwhile, CNN buries the overwhelming popularity of the GOP “Cut, Cap & Balance” plan in its own coverage. The WSJ/NBC poll (.pdf) asks whether the GOP should drop its opposition to “any taxes, including on corporations and the wealthy,” if it that is the only way to reach a deal, but fails to ask whether Obama should drop his insistence on roughly $1 trillion in new taxes if that is the only way to get a deal. Nor does the establishment media ask whether Obama should give up his trillion-dollar ObamaCare entitlement to get a debt deal. The answer to either question would likely not advance the establishment narrative of the “adult” president facing down an intransigent House GOP.

You know who isn’t narrative-building? Tom Jensen of PPP, the Democratic firm that polls for the Daily Kos. PPP has Obama and Romney tied at 45%, but that’s not the main reason why Jensen is concerned:

Obama’s numbers are worse than they appear to be on the surface. The vast majority of the undecideds in all of these match ups disapprove of the job Obama’s doing but aren’t committing to a candidate yet while they wait to see how the Republican field shakes out.

Jensen then allocates the undecideds based on their approval/disapproval of Obama, finding Romney would lead 52-48. Moreover, Obama would lead Bachmann only 51-49, tie Pawlenty at 50, lead Cain by only 51-49, and lead Palin 54-46. In short, Obama is already threatened by almost any GOP nominee (unless you can really tarnish his or her image, which will be the Obama/media approach in 2012).

But wait… there’s more. Presidential candidates have to win states to get those Electoral College votes. Reuters has noticed that Obama faces a tough fight in various key states, but the reporting is largely anecdotal. Thus, let’s look at recent state polling:

Florida (29 EV): Romney leads 46-42 [Sunshine State, 7/12]
Iowa (7 EV): Romney leads 47-44 [Mason-Dixon, 7/14]
Michigan (16 EV): Romney leads 46-42 [EPIC-MRA, 7/15]
New Hampshire (4 EV): Romney leads 46-44 [PPP, 7/7], Romney leads 47-43 [WMUR, 7/6]
North Carolina (15 EV): Romney tied 45-45 [PPP, 7/13], Perry leads 45-42 [Civitas, 7/18]
Ohio (18 EV): Obama leads 45-41, but voters split on re-elect 46-47 [Quinnipiac, 7/21]
Pennsylvania (20 EV): Romney tied 44-44 [PPP, 7/8]

If the economy remains about as weak as it is — and it seems like it will — Obama is going to have to scare a lot of undecided voters to get to 270 Electoral College votes in 2012. In that task, it seems that Obama will have an establishment media applauding loud enough to raise Tinkerbell from the dead.

–Karl

176 Responses to “ABC News cheerleading for Obama more than Daily Kos pollster”

  1. ickle Romneykins better savor words like “chief Republican rival” while they last

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  2. Of course the mainstream media has rosey glasses on for Obama.

    I would like to see taxes go up to ensure the tanking of the economy and the defeat of that freak.

    Arizona Bob (aa856e)

  3. I say we let the
    primaries separate the
    wheat from the chafe

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  4. I’d even vote for
    Ron Paul if it prevented
    an Obama win

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  5. I agree with Karl that polls right now are not news. They are propaganda to some extent. Cherry picking them to say what you like and establish winners and losers is part of ABC’s core mission.

    Romney’s in the margin of error on even the poll most favorable to Obama out of many? Obama’s an incumbency president with wall to wall favorable media coverage, and Romney’s campaign against Obama is nascent. This is not news, but it certainly isn’t good news for Obama.

    Why isn’t ABC asking the real question? Why is Obama’s lack of a plan so unpopular, and the GOP plan so popular, and yet people seem to like Obama? Does that suggest that ABC is failing to inform its audience of what Obama is actually doing, and what the GOP wants to do?

    I think it does. And I don’t say that because I expect ABC to care about helping get out the truth on their favorite buddy, Obama. But if they want to stay in business, they should worry about this. As people figure out how much better new media is at getting them informed, ABC loses money and relevance. I don’t really think the MSM will have what it takes to turn this election.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  6. Does anyone know what the demographics were?

    Sue (24e46b)

  7. I don’t presume we are a nation of rubes…
    but we have put ourselves in this position because we seemingly have a penchant for electing/re-electing politicians who dole out treats and have used that strategy to ensure their continued hold on power. I say we need to rid ourselves of the type of politician that promotes and exploits the American peoples’ addiction to voting themselves gifts from the U.S. Treasury. That path is the road to Perdition.

    We also need to ensure that Democrats get a good dose of shared sacrifice by making sure every adult pays federal income tax… no more of this approx. 47% not paying any.

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  8. 45% democrats
    30% Independents
    25% Republicans

    Nah… I really don’t know, but my guess is based on past behavior for the ABC poll.

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  9. I’d vote for Happyfeet if it prevented an Obama win.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  10. I can’t find the demographics breakout for the ABC poll, but somehow they came up with a sampling error of 3.5 points for the full sample and 5.5 points for “leaned Republicans”?

    You may have it pretty close, ColonelHaiku. :-)

    Sue (24e46b)

  11. The left are ignorant when it comes to a lot of things. Islam and economics are two of them.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  12. ___________________________________________

    President Obama is holding onto a 7 point lead

    Beyond the issue of the validity of ABC’s polling methods, I read not long ago that Hugo Chavez is currently getting around 50% approval in Venezuela. So mindless, very idiotic ultra-leftism, which he espouses and that a good number of his nation’s electorate apparently embraces, is a facet of the human condition. Call it a form of severe laziness, greed, nihilism, dishonesty and self-destructiveness.

    Then, of course, there is a variation of such foolishness — being perhaps a wee bit less extreme or deranged — in places like France, Greece, Mexico, and, closer to home, urban America. So as far as I’m concerned, if the guy now in the White House is getting even 45% approval — when he deserves no more than 30% — he’s already polling far, far above his pay scale.

    A person I was speaking with at work a few weeks ago, who I believe is generally of the right, theorized that Obama somehow would be re-elected, even if unemployment rates remains high. I replied that President “Goddamn America” was the perfect symbol — the perfect figurehead — for this nation if it truly is facing a post-British-Empire type of decline.

    I mentioned that it wasn’t that long ago — as recently as the 1930s, 1940s — when the US shared the world stage with Great Britain. That being the society that preceded us as “Big Man on Campus,” as THE world superpower.

    He noted that the timeline of great nations — or where natural up-and-down cycles remain mostly on the up and up before finally succumbing to more down than up — has generally not extended much beyond a span of 200 years.

    Mark (411533)

  13. I’d rather french kiss Charles Johnson than vote for this piece of trash.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  14. I’d rather vote for this piece of trash than french kiss Charles Johnson.

    Sorry guys.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  15. I’d vote for Happyfeet if it prevented an Obama win.

    Only if he agrees to appoint Sarah Palin as his Secretary of Energy or Interior.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  16. ABC News Political Director Democrat Party liaison Amy Walter and…

    In the interest of accuracy, of course.

    Blacque Jacques Shellacque (e813fa)

  17. Milhouse: Or perhaps to a new cabinet post:Secretary of Hoochies?

    Old Coot (022d49)

  18. Karl’s right. These counterfeit polls are designed to strengthen Obama’s hand in the debt debate now, and to shape the Democrat narrative for the 2012 election. ABC’s local Journolist chapter is out to sway the low-information voter and to reinforce the faithful’s talking points.

    Obama’s policies have been such across-the-board failures it’s impossible to portray him as the man he pretended to be in the last election. You know, the one who would renew hope and bring us together, the one who would bring balance to the force, make the oceans recede, and heal the earth. Girls swooned at his feet and even hard-headed old white men voted for him.

    Instead of the post-racial president we got an arrogant economic illiterate who’s addicted to crack spending and secret back room deals. We voted for a man and we elected a monster.

    ABC’s faux poll is designed to whitewash Obama’s shortcomings by playing fast and loose with the numbers. It’s nothing but propaganda masquerading as news. As clearly indicated above, the percentages of respondents have been skewed to obtain the predetermined results. This isn’t news, it’s a lie pretending to be news.

    ropelight (1def19)

  19. Well Bring on the Hoochies President Happy Feet.
    Maybe start with Debby Wasserman Schultz.

    Mike Myers (0e06a9)

  20. Adults??? They actually put out the number of “adults” and who they would vote for?

    Unserious pollster is unserious.

    Darin H (6391bb)

  21. ABC is cheerleading Obama? Well somebody has to. We liberals are fed up with The Magic Negro

    David Ehrenstein (2550d9)

  22. Racist.

    Notice how they are trying to make CC&B into some radical idea, when every single demographic in America approves of it, in most cases by big margins? Game over, Yelverton. Even leftists approve. Not having a Plan, not being willing to even write a budget, or writing a budget like OBambi’s is proving to be decidedly less than leadership.

    JD (318f81)

  23. Remember what Hillary told us about Obama’s rampant habit of “Voting Present” in Springfield?

    See any parallel between “Voting Present” and not crafting a budget after 2 1/2 years in the WH?

    koam @wittier (69a056)

  24. Oh, he crafted one, but it was so bad even the Dems refused to vote for it.

    JD (318f81)

  25. You guys are gonna vote for Romney?!

    Love that. Even after all the BS about the Tea Party, the Republican establishment can still you little boys and girls how to vote

    timb (449046)

  26. timb is right.

    A vote for Romney is a vote for RINOism but still if he wins I will hold my nose and vote for him.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  27. Senate now voting to table CC&B. A simple majority would allow the Bill to come to the floor for debate. Update to follow.

    ropelight (1def19)

  28. The “polls” had Reagan trailing Carter. How’d that turn out?

    Arizona Bob (aa856e)

  29. Creepy dishonest trolls are always creepy and dishonest. Calling people a boy is racist.

    JD (318f81)

  30. timbimbo swallows jackass poop.

    ropelight (1def19)

  31. The projection from the little spittle-flecked hate-filled angry secproggie is quite telling.

    JD (29e1cd)

  32. “You guys are gonna vote for Romney?!”

    timb – When is the closest election or primary?

    Are the Democrats going to run Obama? Seriously?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  33. Senate votes 51 to 46 to table HR 2560 (Cut, Cap, and Balance). It will not come to the floor for debate or a vote. This vote is in clear rejection of the preferences of an overwhelming majority of Americans.

    Harry Reid is already calling for discussions to raise taxes, borrow more money, and continue spending.

    ropelight (1def19)

  34. I read yesterday Hairy Reid said he would not even consider the CC&B. If he’s so sure about it being bad, then why doesn’t he bring it up for a vote. After all, his party has the majority. Wouldn’t be because he’s afraid, would it?

    PatAZ (a0589c)

  35. tim not right in head
    since he step in front of that
    big tractor-trailer

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  36. PatAZ – Defeated 51-46 this a.m.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  37. doc say sneeze tim say
    what? doc say you can do what
    you want but next time

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  38. you see me come you
    better run tim ask where you
    want this sneezing done?

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  39. But Manchin was known as such a conservative, not like that extremist Raese, then what do I know,

    ian cormac (d380ce)

  40. doc say just not out on Highway 61

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  41. washerwoman Shultz
    look like cross between poodle
    and the late Ed Wynn

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  42. Mitt Romney trails the Prez, Obama
    If counting the votes from the slammer
    The Prez really needs
    Voters smoking weed
    The hit us with another four-year hammer

    The Limerick Avenger (3e4784)

  43. Dems were trapped by CC&B. So they took the only way out, short of doing their jobs. By voting to table HR 2560 (CC&B), Dems don’t have to go on record as specifically voting against a Balanced Budget Amendment (BBA).

    They just voted to avoid discussing it. Which is the only fig leaf they have and can spin into an excuse to cover their naked duplicity.

    The two-faced lying jackasses can continue to cross their fingers behind their cowardly backs and proclaim to the heavens they’re fiscally responsible, even claim they actually support a BBA. There is no lie so deceitful, or pretence so reprehensible, that Democrats in Congress will hesitate to embrace. They’d crawl into bed with Beelzebub himself to stay in power.

    ropelight (1def19)

  44. Don’t hold back, ropelight. Tell us what you really think.

    David Ehrenstein (2550d9)

  45. ABC put out a poll saying 100% of ultra-leftys believe Obama should be president for life.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  46. btw, those who didn’t show for the vote, Kerry, Gillibrand, and McCain

    ian cormac (d380ce)

  47. O’bama, a wee lad from County Derry
    took pains not to mince like a fairy
    as The Prez threw the first pitch
    I’ll be damned if the sumbich
    dint limp wrist it ‘cross plate like John Kerry

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  48. Hairy Reed cannot even be bothered with drafting a budget. Why would anyone think the Senate Dems would actually do something to fix the crisis that the Dems created?

    JD (318f81)

  49. Every single demographic in America is in favor of CC&B, by large margins in most, and the Dems are so craven that they voted to table, as they are too cowardly to even discuss. 20 or more of the Senate Dems claimed to support balanced budgets, so maybe their voters will hold them to that. Barcky and his bytches just showed how unserious they are. Bugger off.

    JD (318f81)

  50. The Colonel tries to steal my gig
    The thief! He’s just such a pig!
    He’d better stop now,
    Or he’ll find out how
    hard it is to fight someone so big!

    The Limerick Avenger (3e4784)

  51. The light at the end of his rope wrote:

    There is no lie so deceitful, or pretence so reprehensible, that Democrats in Congress will hesitate to embrace. They’d crawl into bed with Beelzebub himself to stay in power.

    You got the tense wrong; they already have.

    The Dana who strives for accuracy (3e4784)

  52. Harry Reid is like Lindsey Lohan.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  53. Not really: at least you can look at Miss Lohan and not flinch.

    The Dana who can see (3e4784)

  54. avenger he call colonel big hog
    think he rule the roost like a bullfrog
    think he real big stuff
    but colonel calling his bluff
    beat ass and leave him in big fog

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  55. Haiku, just you wait
    I will thrash you so badly
    Like a union goon

    The Limerick Avenger (3e4784)

  56. In 2012, The National Popular Vote bill could guarantee the Presidency to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC).

    Every vote, everywhere, would be politically relevant and equal in presidential elections.

    All the electoral votes from the enacting states would be awarded to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states and DC. The bill would take effect when enacted by states possessing a majority of the electoral votes– enough electoral votes to elect a President (270 of 538).

    The bill uses the power given to each state by the Founding Fathers in the Constitution to change how they award their electoral votes for president. Historically, virtually all of the major changes in the method of electing the President, including ending the requirement that only men who owned substantial property could vote and 48 current state-by-state winner-take-all laws, have come about by state legislative action.

    The bill has passed 31 state legislative chambers in 21 small, medium-small, medium, and large states, including one house in AR, CT, DE, DC, ME, MI, NV, NM, NY, NC, and OR, and both houses in CA, CO, HI, IL, NJ, MD, MA ,RI, VT, and WA . The bill has been enacted by DC, HI, IL, NJ, MD, MA, VT, and WA. These 8 jurisdictions possess 77 electoral votes– 29% of the 270 necessary to bring the law into effect.

    oldgulph (7ef349)

  57. Haiku will find out
    When my can of whoop ass turns
    Him into kernel

    The Limerick Avenger (3e4784)

  58. Harry Reid is a lesbian kleptomaniac?

    David Ehrenstein (2550d9)

  59. Oldgulph wrote:

    including ending the requirement that only (white) men who owned substantial property could vote

    See? Not every change has been for the better!

    The snarky Dana (3e4784)

  60. knees tremble at thought
    of thrilla in Manilla
    with Da Hogzilla!

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  61. ya got goon part right
    but colonel’s strong right cross leave
    you buffing your foon

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  62. here’s some news oldgulp
    nation a republic not
    one man one vote Mob

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  63. Comment by oldgulph — 7/22/2011 @ 9:50 am

    We don’t have direct elections of the President.
    This is a Republic, if you can keep it.

    You want to circumvent the Electoral College, have a Constitutional Amendment passed (and Good Luck on that)!

    AD-RtR/OS! (7b7c30)

  64. Every vote, everywhere, would be politically relevant and equal in presidential elections

    And then the election would be decided in about 6 cities. How wonderful.

    Chuck Bartowski (4c6c0c)

  65. Wow, DC, Hawaii, Illinois and New Jersey want me to change from an electoral college system to popular vote system?

    Sounds like it might be thought to help democrats.

    Like Chuck, I’d worry politicians who already spend our money to buy votes would just concentrate that money in urban areas. With enough corruption, they can really screw the rest of the country.

    If we’re going to reform our system, I would suggest state legislatures select Senators, instead of having them come up for direct election.

    The people have the House, and the state governments should have the Senate for balance.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  66. I am not a fan of “tyranny of the majority”.

    I want power to be as diluted as possible, since power and corruption tend to go hand-in-hand. I would prefer that all states apportion their electoral votes, but I also recognize that some states have concluded that all-or-nothing means more pork (and perhaps outright bribery) for them.

    Sue (24e46b)

  67. I think that’s more fair, Sue. Apportionment, I mean. Good idea.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  68. Comment by Dustin — 7/22/2011 @ 10:34 am

    But…but…Dustin,
    the popular elections of Senators is one of the cornerstones of the Progressive Agenda to take control of the Country away from the Robber Barons and Oligarchs,
    and return the Country to the People.

    AD-RtR/OS! (7b7c30)

  69. “You guys are gonna vote for Romney?!”

    timb – When is the closest election or primary?

    Are the Democrats going to run Obama? Seriously?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 7/22/2011

    Daley, Primaries start early next year. By the November general, you will be voting for Romney (I can always hope for Bachman, but you guys just can’t get her across the finish line). I’ll come back and remind you.

    The answer to your second question is yes. Generally, sitting presidents are good bets to get re-nominated. Strange, I thought you knew more about politics than that.

    As an aside, it is entertaining to watch commenters claim “the ccb [editor's note: the dumbest budget law in the history fo the Republic] enjoys broad consensus!” You know what else enjoys even broader consensus? 81% of Americans support ending the Bush tax breaks on the rich.

    Yet, that’s anathema to the crowd of “never a tax increase.” We’re in a debt crisis (we are not, but that’s besides the point)! Tax cut! Is there a war? Tax cut! Is there a recession? Tax cut. Is there a surplus? Tax cut.

    timb (449046)

  70. Ah, Ad, still fighting the battles of 1916! Way to go, dude. Maybe you campaign against the FDA next? Or women’s right to vote.

    You can always tell the Beckians….so reactionary they don’t know what century it is

    timb (449046)

  71. daley…you’ve been properly “schooled”.

    AD-RtR/OS! (7b7c30)

  72. timb, screams about Romney, and I think it’s really hilarious.

    Apparently he has identified a contradiction. In his head, all Obama’s detractors on the right are extremists intolerant crazies, and Tea Party affiliation only means intolerance too.

    And yet we’ll support someone timb says is not tolerable by the extreme right.

    I think it’s really funny how confused his bigotry has made him. Of course many will vote for a nominee other than the eventual winner, and then support the actual nominee that best represents them.

    This confuses timb so much.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  73. timmie…FYI, the 17th-A changing the selection of Senators was ratified on 8 April 1913!

    AD-RtR/OS! (7b7c30)

  74. timmie is the perfect audience for prestidigitators.

    AD-RtR/OS! (7b7c30)

  75. Yet, that’s anathema to the crowd of “never a tax increase.” We’re in a debt crisis (we are not, but that’s besides the point)!

    Everyone on the planet admits there is a crisis, except the creepy dishonest stalkerish thingie. Budgeting 24%+ of GDP is such great economics. Being downgraded because of debt, deficits, and spending is their idea of balancing budgets.

    JD (318f81)

  76. 81% support the rpeal of Barcky’s tax cuts for those that make over $250,000. Now we all know the creepy one plays fast and loose with honesty, so I suspect that this is about as accurate as when Barcky claimed 80% of Americans agreed with his desire to jack up taxes to solve their deficit spending problems.

    JD (318f81)

  77. Generally, sitting presidents are good bets to get re-nominated. Strange, I thought you knew more about politics than that.

    Timb, you didn’t know a lot of people think the democrats should primary their failed president? It’s not exactly a secret.

    He’s got double Bush’s unemployment level, ten times his deficit, and has presided over one scandal after another. He’s lost a war and broken his oath of office (by his own terms of what is constitutional!), too.

    He’s a miserable failure. Of course there’s a chance he won’t be the nominee.

    How many democrat blogs do you read? I read quite a few, and very few are happy with Obama. A Howard Dean or Hillary candidacy would gain traction. I even think they could be nominated.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  78. “81% of Americans support ending the Bush tax breaks on the rich.”

    timb – I always love how liberals mislabel things. When Obama extended the current tax rates in 2010, the Joint Tax Committee found that 85% of the benefit would go to people earning below $250,000.

    CNN’s survey found 2/3′s of Americans support CCB.

    I really do hope the Democrats run Obama. It will make a GOP victory easier. The ads already write themselves.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  79. I also love how it’s the ‘Bush tax breaks’ now.

    Obama signed them into law, Timb. They are Obama’s tax policy too. Like I said, if you don’t like his policies, why are you supporting him? He says he opposes something, and then his actions speak louder.

    Gitmo, prison ships, rushes to war, massively increasing the deficits… this is Obama’s record. As is Bush’s tax policy. Obama signed his name to it.

    Calling it Bush’s tax ‘breaks’ is hilarious because it only underlines how impotent Obama is.

    Anyway, it’s not a cut anymore. It’s the status quo. Have the convictions to admit that you’re advocating a tax increase, and leaving things where they have been for many years is not a cut.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  80. +10, Dustin!

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  81. timmahB fopflop
    snortin’ KosKid on da loose!
    rilly screw da pooch

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  82. National Popular Vote has nothing to do with whether the country has a “republican” form of government or is a “democracy.”

    In a republic, the citizens do not rule directly but, instead, elect officeholders to represent them and conduct the business of government in the periods between elections.
    A “republican” form of government means that the voters do not make laws themselves but, instead, delegate the job to periodically elected officials (Congressmen, Senators, and the President). The United States has a republican form of government regardless of whether popular votes for presidential electors are tallied at the state-level (as has been the case in 48 states) or at district-level (as has been the case in Maine and Nebraska) or at 50-state-level (as under the National Popular Vote bill).

    oldgulph (7ef349)

  83. The presidential election system we have today is not in the Constitution, and enacting National Popular Vote would not need an amendment. State-by-state winner-take-all laws to award Electoral College votes, are an example of state laws eventually enacted by states, using their exclusive power to do so, AFTER the Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution, Now our current system can be changed by state laws again.

    Unable to agree on any particular method, the Founding Fathers left the choice of method for selecting presidential electors exclusively to the states by adopting the language contained in section 1 of Article II of the U.S. Constitution– “Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors . . .” The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly characterized the authority of the state legislatures over the manner of awarding their electoral votes as “plenary” and “exclusive.”

    In 1789, in the nation’s first election, the people had no vote for President in most states, only men who owned a substantial amount of property could vote, and only three states used the state-by-state winner-take-all method to award electoral votes.

    oldgulph (7ef349)

  84. The population of the top five cities (New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston and Philadelphia) is only 6% of the population of the United States and the population of the top 50 cities (going as obscurely far down as Arlington, TX) is only 19% of the population of the United States.

    Suburbs and exurbs often vote Republican.

    oldgulph (7ef349)

  85. Saul Anuzis, former Chairman of the Michigan Republican Party for five years and a former candidate for chairman of the Republican National Committee, supports the National Popular Vote plan as the fairest way to make sure every vote matters, and also as a way to help Conservative Republican candidates. This is not a partisan issue and the NPV plan would not help either party over the other.

    Some other supporters who wrote forewords to “Every Vote Equal: A State-Based Plan for Electing the President by National Popular Vote ” include:

    Laura Brod served in the Minnesota House of Representatives from 2003 to 2010 and was the ranking Republican member of the Tax Committee. She is the Minnesota Public Sector Chair for ALEC (American Legislative Exchange Council) and active in the Council of State Governments.

    James Brulte is a Republican who served as Republican Leader of the California State Assembly from 1992 to 1996, California State Senator from 1996 to 2004, and Senate Republican leader from 2000 to 2004.

    Ray Haynes served as the National Chairman of the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) in 2000. He served in the California State Senate from 1994 to 2002 and was elected to the Assembly in 1992 and 2002

    Dean Murray is a member of the New York State Assembly. He was a Tea Party organizer before being elected to the Assembly as a Republican, Conservative Party member in February 2010. He was described by Fox News as the first Tea Party candidate elected to office in the United States.

    Thomas L. Pearce served as a Michigan State Representative from 2005–2010 and was appointed Dean of the Republican Caucus. He has led several faith-based initiatives in Lansing.

    oldgulph (7ef349)

  86. Any state that enacts the proportional approach on its own would reduce its own influence. This was the most telling argument that caused Colorado voters to agree with Republican Governor Owens and to reject this proposal in November 2004 by a two-to-one margin.

    If the proportional approach were implemented by a state, on its own,, it would have to allocate its electoral votes in whole numbers. If a current battleground state were to change its winner-take-all statute to a proportional method for awarding electoral votes, presidential candidates would pay less attention to that state because only one electoral vote would probably be at stake in the state.

    If the whole-number proportional approach had been in use throughout the country in the nation’s closest recent presidential election (2000), it would not have awarded the most electoral votes to the candidate receiving the most popular votes nationwide. Instead, the result would have been a tie of 269–269 in the electoral vote, even though Al Gore led by 537,179 popular votes across the nation. The presidential election would have been thrown into Congress to decide and resulted in the election of the second-place candidate in terms of the national popular vote.

    A system in which electoral votes are divided proportionally by state would not accurately reflect the nationwide popular vote and would not make every vote equal.

    It would penalize states, such as Montana, that have only one U.S. Representative even though it has almost three times more population than other small states with one congressman. It would penalize fast-growing states that do not receive any increase in their number of electoral votes until after the next federal census. It would penalize states with high voter turnout (e.g., Utah, Oregon).

    Moreover, the fractional proportional allocation approach does not assure election of the winner of the nationwide popular vote. In 2000, for example, it would have resulted in the election of the second-place candidate.

    A national popular vote is the way to make every person’s vote equal and guarantee that the candidate who gets the most votes in all 50 states becomes President.

    oldgulph (7ef349)

  87. Would Howard Dean have endorsed Bush’s tax policy the way Obama did?

    Sure, both of them SAY they oppose it, but Obama signed it into law while saying he opposed it, as though he could fool democrats into electing him so he could fix it later.

    How many issues does Obama get to do this with before the democrats realize he’s full of crap, anyway? Sure, he’s not exactly a mainstream Republican either, but just look at Obama’s teachings in Chicago. He wants to keep his voters and donors agitated for change. He never talks about satisfying them. He abhors the idea of solving their problems and making them happy. He preaches finding ways to keep them motivated and donating and volunteering.

    If Obama could, instantly, solve every single item on the progressive agenda right now, he wouldn’t do it. It’s the last thing he’d ever do. He’s following Rules for Radicals, which is so funny because while it is pretty evil, the ultimate joke is on the radicals because it never gets to the point where they are happy.

    It’s a manual for winning the next election and organizing agitators, rather than actually accomplishing anything.

    Howard Dean is a true believer. He wouldn’t have invaded Libya. He wouldn’t be signing Bush’s tax cuts while saying he really hates them.

    I don’t like Howard Dean’s politics (for the most part), but he did run his state as a serious executive, and I respect that he’s not a con artist. He’s just presenting his views honestly, and would actually try to govern by them.

    The democrats need to look at why a politician like Obama gets more of their support than a politician like Dean.

    It’s the same reason a politician like Romney is out performing one like Palin. This is a cultural phenomena rather than a partisan one.

    I think eventually one side will wake up first and demand results instead of games. I think that’s what the Tea Party really is.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  88. Saul Anuzis, former Chairman of the Michigan Republican Party for five years and a former candidate for chairman of the Republican National Committee, supports the National Popular Vote plan as the fairest way to make sure every vote matters, and also as a way to help Conservative Republican candidates. This is not a partisan issue and the NPV plan would not help either party over the other.

    You’re either a fool or you are a liar.

    Also, did you cut and paste most of your diatribe from Democratic Underground, or did someone say word for word most of what you said there too by sheer coincidence?

    Your analysis sucks. There are highly concentrated population centers that are highly susceptible to corruption and support democrats far more than the rest of the country.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  89. Next time, post a link to your article instead of spamming the thread with content you stole.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  90. Spamming off topic crusades ROCKS

    JD (2da347)

  91. Apparently he’s spammed this crap to hundreds of other blogs too, JD.

    I like the idea that he can convince us to support it by appealing to the authority and credibility of people pushing it.

    ‘So and so likes it, and they are a Republican, and they led a ‘faith based initiative’ (so did Rev Wright) so you know conservatives should support this!!!!

    Meanwhile, he posts most of the same crap to far left sites.

    Most conservatives so not find ‘so and so is your true leader, trust them!’ to be a good argument. Most of us have the sense to see that population only voting would greatly benefit urban areas. Politicians could cater to cities only. It would really make corruption a lot easier.

    Anyway, it’s entirely a thread jack. And it’s very dishonest. I don’t give a crap what some blue state Republican phony has to say about this.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  92. oldgulph – No more spam on your pet cause please.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  93. Democrat Senate
    circus clowns in bumper cars
    hang on to wallets

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  94. For the fossil swallower,
    I’ve got a nice fresh, crisp C-note here to wager that any attempt to implement the National Popular Vote scamScheme will be ruled unconstitutional by SCOTUS.

    AD-RtR/OS! (7b7c30)

  95. AD wrote:

    I’ve got a nice fresh, crisp C-note here to wager that any attempt to implement the National Popular Vote scamScheme will be ruled unconstitutional by SCOTUS.

    I’ll take that wager!

    Now, I don’t think that it’s a good idea — had it been in place in 2000, we’d have had [shudder!] Al Gore as President, but oldgulph is at least right about one thing: the states can apportion their electoral votes any way they wish. Heck, they are not even required to have an election: the state legislature could, if it so chose, simply appoint electors who would vote for whomever the legislature preferred. And two states already have different systems: Nebraska and Maine give the two electoral votes representing the senate seats to the state-at-large winner, and the other electors are determined by who wins the individual congressional districts.

    The Dana who isn't a lawyer (3e4784)

  96. http://www.thatssaulfolks.com/2010/04/01/national-popular-vote-why-i-support-it/

    By state (electoral college votes), by political affiliation, support for a national popular vote in recent polls has been:

    Alaska (3) — 66% among (Republicans), 70% among Nonpartisan voters, 82% among Alaska Independent Party voters
    Arkansas (6) — 71% (R), 79% (Independents).
    California (55)– 61% (R), 74% (I)
    Colorado (9) — 56% (R), 70% (I).
    Connecticut (7) — 67% (R)
    Delaware (3) — 69% (R), 76% (I)
    DC (3) — 48% (R), 74% of (I)
    Idaho(4) – 75% (R)
    Florida (29) — 68% (R)
    Iowa (6) — 63% (R)
    Kentucky (8) — 71% (R), 70% (I)
    Maine (4) – 70% (R)
    Massachusetts (11) — 54% (R)
    Michigan (16) — 68% (R), 73% (I)
    Minnesota (10) — 69% (R)
    Mississippi (6) — 75% (R)
    Nebraska (5) — 70% (R)
    Nevada (5) — 66% (R)
    New Hampshire (4) — 57% (R), 69% (I)
    New Mexico (5) — 64% (R), 68% (I)
    New York (29) – 66% (R), 78% Independence, 50% Conservative
    North Carolina (15) — 89% liberal (R), 62% moderate (R) , 70% conservative (R), 80% (I)
    Ohio (18) — 65% (R)
    Oklahoma (7) — 75% (R)
    Oregon (7) — 70% (R), 72% (I)
    Pennsylvania (20) — 68% (R), 76% (I)
    Rhode Island (4) — 71% liberal (R), 63% moderate (R), 35% conservative (R), 78% (I),
    South Carolina (8) — 64% (R)
    South Dakota (3) — 67% (R)
    Tennessee (11) — 73% (R)
    Utah (6) — 66% (R)
    Vermont (3) — 61% (R)
    Virginia (13) — 76% liberal (R), 63% moderate (R), 54% conservative (R)
    Washington (12) — 65% (R)
    West Virginia (5) — 75% (R)
    Wisconsin (10) — 63% (R), 67% (I)
    Wyoming (3) –66% (R), 72% (I)
    http://nationalpopularvote.com/pages/polls.php

    oldgulph (7ef349)

  97. Kernel make mistake:
    He brings fists to a gunfight.
    His last words: Uh oh!

    The Limerick Avenger (3e4784)

  98. The Kernel thinks he’s so cool,
    He thinks that his haikus will rule
    But soon he will state,
    “I made a mistake,”
    ‘Cause the Avenger, he is no fool.

    The Limerick Avenger (3e4784)

  99. ABC stands for AllBarackChannel.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  100. This Saul Anuzis fella needs spam to carry his message?

    He says “This is a state rights issue. We the people—in every state—have the right to decide how and who is elected President.”

    But this obviously weakens the states and empowers urban population centers. Oklahoma gets screwed, and California and New York get far more power.

    BTW, that is one hell of a dishonest poll reading. Wow.

    Anyway, why not post a link instead of spamming?
    IS this

    Dustin (b7410e)

  101. Anyway, by the looks of it, Saul is an OK guy. I don’t think he needs spammers to annoy Democratic Underground or this blog by spamming his views.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  102. SPAM RULEZ! OLDGULPH DROOLZ!!!!

    JD (dbec08)

  103. time the avenger
    return to reality
    don’t be ludicrous

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  104. Obama signed them into law, Timb. They are Obama’s tax policy too. Like I said, if you don’t like his policies, why are you supporting him? He says he opposes something, and then his actions speak louder.

    Gitmo, prison ships, rushes to war, massively increasing the deficits… this is Obama’s record. As is Bush’s tax policy. Obama signed his name to it.

    Ah, semantics, the only fall back for the rube.

    Dustin, I will vote for Obama, because the alternative is too disastrous. A further march down the road to a neo-feudalist society? No, thank you.

    I will not, as I did in 2008, put out the yard sign or give the money or monitor the polls for the campaign. He can suck it, since he’s been a huge disappointment.

    On the issue of the cuts, all I’m doing is quoting Grover Norquist from his op-ed today. Not acting on future “sunsetting” laws is not a tax hike. Personally, I look forward to the fact that the R’s won’t let the rich people down and the law will go away and much of the medium term deficit will be solved.

    Still, I like how you call it Obama’s tax hike, since he was forced to sign it to get anything done last fall! In a similar fashion, generations of Americans “own” the castor oil their parents made them take against their wishes.

    timb (449046)

  105. You forgot oligarchs.

    JD (dbec08)

  106. Ah, semantics, the only fall back for the rube.

    I’m sorry, you’re the guy claiming Obama’s tax policy should be describe as Bush’s. You’re the one playing word games.

    You say the alternative to Obama is a disaster, but as I proved, you’re actually voting for Bush’s tax cuts.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  107. Anyway, why are the democrats voting for an opponent to gay marriage, someone who invades other countries in an unprecedented rush, with Bush’s tax policy?

    Because he told you he didn’t really mean it when he did that?

    Because he promised to cut the deficit in half?

    Why wouldn’t you at least support a primary challenge to Obama?

    Remember how timb entered the discussion: claiming it’s a horrible sin for Tea Partiers to support a moderate Republican in a general election. But he was lying. He explains why he would vote for someone deviating from his values very wildly because he thinks republican leadership would be worse.

    timb is a partisan hack, in other words. Not that this was a secret, but he’s unable to trip over his own lying, which is amusing. Most partisan hacks are smarter than this one.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  108. Save your breath, Dustin. He wouldn’t know honest discussion if it crawled out his weinerhole and whacked him in the forehead.

    JD (dbec08)

  109. Ad, with the cogent correction that he is fighting the battles of 1913, not 1916. In my face!

    As for this,

    Yet, that’s anathema to the crowd of “never a tax increase.” We’re in a debt crisis (we are not, but that’s besides the point)!

    Everyone on the planet admits there is a crisis, except the creepy dishonest stalkerish thingie. Budgeting 24%+ of GDP is such great economics. Being downgraded because of debt, deficits, and spending is their idea of balancing budgets.

    Comment by JD — 7/22/2011

    You, sir, are the dumbest single member of the human race. Claims without contexts are insignificant. Spending, you used tampon, always goes up in times of slow growth and unemployment. Your hero, W’s last budget had a trillion dollar deficit in a “growing” economy, which didn’t seem to bother you.

    A debt crisis occurs when

    … potential lenders or bond purchasers begin to suspect that a government may fail to pay back its debt, they may demand a high interest rate in compensation for the risk of default. A dramatic rise in the interest rate faced by a government due to fear that it will fail to honor its debt is sometimes called a sovereign debt crisis

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default

    It is not, whenever a Democrat is in the White House and jd panics over a debt created by a recession.

    The US government, before the R’s started holding it hostage, was in no danger of failing to pay its debt, and, in fact, bond market rates on bonds have not increased (you know, until, again, the geniuses you support in Congress decided to make Standard and Poor’s and other rating agencies threaten to downgrade the US credit rating because Republicans won’t pay the bills).

    Quit listening to Limbaugh and actually learn something.

    PS If you are worried about 24% of the GDP being spent by government, why don’t you support ways to get revenue closer to 24% of GDP?

    As Ezra said (oh, no, kill the messenger)

    Ronald Reagan never saw spending fall below 21 percent of GDP. Aside from his first year, George W. Bush never got below 19 percent. So Republican control isn’t capable of getting anywhere near the 16.7 percent that the proposed amendment lays out.

    Strange how you only worry about that debt when a Democrat is President.

    What a clueless little man you are. Spoon fed your “knowledge” by talk show hosts and Jeff Godlstein….just a sad little creature. Stop pretending to know anything and just call people names. After all, it’s not like ever learn anything.

    timb (449046)

  110. “As Ezra said” Ha!
    and the little children shall
    lead lib louts to Light

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  111. “Dustin, I will vote for Obama, because the alternative is too disastrous. A further march down the road to a neo-feudalist society? No, thank you.”

    oh, the droning on of the self-anointed, enlightened drones…

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  112. Comment by The Dana who isn’t a lawyer — 7/22/2011 @ 12:52 pm

    Yes, Dana, but at least in ME and NE the awarding of Electoral Votes is tied directly to the votes cast in that State, and not influenced by what happens in other States.

    This is so transparently an evisceration of the Republican Concept embedded in the creation of the Electoral College, that even Reinhardt would have a tough time supporting it (well, maybe not him).

    Milton Friedman (7b7c30)

  113. Timb is a good little drone that doesn’t care about starving.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  114. It helps your credibility when you tell bald faced lies. Bush never had a trillion dollar deficit. Ever. Not ev in the ballpark. You tried this lie out before. You are agressive in your lies today. Barcky’s monthly deficits rival Bush’s annual deficits. We have spending and borrowing issues. Big ones. And you and yours want to yammer on about neofeudal oligarchs. The only way that we will be unable to pay our debts is if your personal Jesus chooses too. Just like with SS. And the military. Name one talk show I listen to, you lying little ambulance chaser. One. Hint. I don’t listen, or watch, so any answer greater than zero, or beyond “I made that up” is a pie, since I told you the right answer.

    JD (dbec08)

  115. Oops, sorry, that damn sockpuppet thing.

    AD-RtR/OS! (7b7c30)

  116. timb is really fun to read.

    He comes here to make a specific attack, and then admits it really is much more appropriate as a description of his own attitude. He’s the guy sheepishly assuring he will vote Obama no matter what, because he hates Republicans and… feudalism, lol. It’s honestly pretty sad, but funny at the same time.

    Then he whines that associating Obama with Obama’s tax policies is ‘semantics’. It’s also the truth, jackass.

    Timb is one of those poor souls whose harshest attacks are projections of his own shortcomings. Not the picture of happiness. And if a die hard democrat hack is that conflicted, no wonder the independents are fleeing Obama in droves.

    What happens if you don’t believe Republicans are horrible, timb? That’s your reason for supporting Obama despite his tax policy, so naturally you realize Obama is going to have a damn hard time with non-shrieking partisan hacks, right?

    Dustin (b7410e)

  117. Remember how timb entered the discussion: claiming it’s a horrible sin for Tea Partiers to support a moderate Republican in a general election. But he was lying. He explains why he would vote for someone deviating from his values very wildly because he thinks republican leadership would be worse.

    timb is a partisan hack, in other words. Not that this was a secret, but he’s unable to trip over his own lying, which is amusing. Most partisan hacks are smarter than this one.

    I never said voting for Romney was a horrible sin. I said it was funny that for all your bluster and Tea party bs, you are still led by the GOP establishment.

    See, Dustin, unlike you, I don’t demand the President be a perfect embodiment of my ideology. I understand that governing is compromising. So, the fact that Obama (who just asked for the repeal of DOMA, so your first point is a bit moot)

    He hasn’t invaded any new country. he was nice enough to provide air defense suppression, intelligence, and re-fueling to NATO, but there is no American invasion of any country

    And, as I noted, he was forced to compromise on Bush’s tax policy, so what? It will be gone in two years.

    If you think that partisan hack means a person who believes the way I refuses to vote for a feudal lord like Romney, an insane jihadist like Bachman, or a spineless televangelist like Perry, then there ain’t much I can do to show you what reality is.

    It’s a two party system, Dustin, and when you’re sad voting for Romney, I’ll be sad voting for Obama. But, at least I know, I didn’t vote for Hillary Clinton in 2008 in the Indiana primary, because Limbaugh told me too. That is partisan hackery.

    PS I see you’ve moved away from the polite tone you used to use and sunk more into the ad hominem. Good for you. This site needs more people who call people names (outside of jd. That’s all he CAN do. He’s been a lost soul ever since he stopped washing Kendall Gill’s used jockstraps)

    timb (449046)

  118. Timb: GOP average deficit before the Pelosi era: $150 billion per year.

    $150 billion.

    That’s way too high, but only an imbecile would support democrats if he is even slightly interested in deficit reduction. The current games being played with our finances only underline that democrats just don’t care about the issue.

    Obama promised to cut the deficit in half, but he increased it ten times over.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  119. timmah would rather
    march off a cliff than serve as
    vassal to colonel

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  120. Comment by oldgulph — 7/22/2011 @ 12:54 pm

    I would remind you of something your Mother told you:
    Just because all the other kids are jumping off the roof of the barn is no reason for you to do so.

    Your logic in posting those numbers is exactly why we are a Republic, and not a Democracy.

    “Some concepts are so foolish only the well-educated can believe in them!”

    AD-RtR/OS! (7b7c30)

  121. He hasn’t invaded any new country. he was nice enough to provide air defense suppression, intelligence, and re-fueling to NATO, but there is no American invasion of any country

    This is from the person that wailed about rubes resorting to semantics.

    Your obsession with me is unseemly.

    JD (dbec08)

  122. Comment by timb — 7/22/2011 @ 1:31 pm

    If it wasn’t for brain-dead Leftists, there would be no-one paying attention to Grover.

    AD-RtR/OS! (7b7c30)

  123. And, as I noted, he was forced to compromise on Bush’s tax policy, so what? It will be gone in two years.

    How do you figure it will be gone in 2 years?

    Gerald A (9d78e8)

  124. Comment by timb — 7/22/2011 @ 1:50 pm

    Class, you ain’t got!

    AD-RtR/OS! (7b7c30)

  125. feudal lord like Romney, an insane jihadist like Bachman, or a spineless televangelist like Perry

    What are you talking about?

    Gerald A (9d78e8)

  126. Try again, douchbag

    With projected receipts less than projected outlays, the budget proposed by President Bush predicts a net deficit of approximately $400 billion dollars, adding to a United States governmental debt of about $11.4 trillion. Actual tax receipts totaled approximately $2.1 trillion – significantly less than the $2.7 trillion expected. The actual deficit in 2009 was $1.4 trillion.[1]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_United_States_federal_budget

    Not to mention, as I did just last week, when you missed this point (in a hilariously ironic comment that “President Bush’s worst deficit was half of Obama’s 1.9 trillion”…..gee, half of 2 trillion is what? You can’t even agree with yourself). The first Obama budget included items the Bush budget left out, like wars and AMT changes, etc.

    Second time in a week I have corrected on this point. I’d expect better, but you always in such a state of partisan rage that facts don’t matter; only the team colors do.

    timb (449046)

  127. Goodnight, folks. Looks like the creepy one is getting all stalkerish again, and I promised the host that I would not engage when he starts in on that again.

    JD (dbec08)

  128. “And, as I noted, he was forced to compromise on Bush’s tax policy, so what? It will be gone in two years.

    Forced. That’s hilarious. The tax rates were extended at a time when the Democrats still controlled both houses of Congress as the new Congress hadn’t been seated.

    Forced. When the Democrats controlled both houses of congress and the White House. Hilarious.

    SPQR (94a0ec)

  129. Your logic in posting those numbers is exactly why we are a Republic, and not a Democracy.

    Just note that his numbers don’t even reflect anything. They are cherry picked with many major omissions, and I wouldn’t count on the poll being accurate even in what it claims to say.

    But frankly I don’t care. Pushing the tyranny of the majority because the majority wants it is circular. I want a Republic. I think it matters that large swaths of geography have some hope of representative government.

    Citizens in flyover states might as well not vote at all if these nuts get their way. That’s not making every vote count. I know that democrats are very good at organizing GOTV in a few cities. A little crack from ACORN and you have the hobos lining up. election fraud is easier, and politicians don’t even need to leave the city.

    I’d go in the opposite direction.

    And Thank God Al Gore was not President on 9/11. He’d have lost the war the same way Obama lost the war in Afghanistan.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  130. With projected receipts less than projected outlays, the budget proposed by President Bush predicts a net deficit of approximately $400 billion dollars, adding to a United States governmental debt of about $11.4 trillion. Actual tax receipts totaled approximately $2.1 trillion – significantly less than the $2.7 trillion expected. The actual deficit in 2009 was $1.4 trillion.[1]

    LIE. Signed by Obama, after Bush left office, and included oodles of leftist new spending.

    JD (dbec08)

  131. timb, hey twit – the “actual” FY2009 deficit included hundreds of billions of faux “stimulus” enacted after Bush left office.

    Don’t tell me about partisanship, given your long history of partisan dishonesty.

    SPQR (94a0ec)

  132. Comment by Gerald A — 7/22/2011 @ 2:08 pm

    Because it is thoroughly convinced that Teh Won will be re-coronated in 2013, and the “Bush-era” tax-rates will expire, and be replaced with ones even higher than the “Clinton-era” rates they modified.

    That must be some strong $hit its smoking.

    AD-RtR/OS! (7b7c30)

  133. And, as I noted, he was forced to compromise on Bush’s tax policy, so what? It will be gone in two years.

    How do you figure it will be gone in 2 years?

    Comment by Gerald A

    Gerald, there are two main scenarios: if the President wins re-election, which I think he will, then the Republicans in Congress through filibuster or retention of a House majority will do what they did last time, which is demand the tax cuts for rich folk remain, whereas Obama, moron that he is, wants to only extend the middle and lower class parts of the tax bills.

    Since the Republicans will not agree to this, the tax cuts will expire and 700 billion of tax revenues will be added to the Federal budget.

    Your implicit assertion: a GOP president, of course, makes that less likely. It might be filibustered by Dems in the Senate, but this doesn’t sound like the sort of thing they would do.

    So, if your hope is correct, that an R wins the Presidency, then you are right, the tax cuts do not go away and we can continue to screw the poor ou of SS and Medicaid, so Steven Schwartzman can avoid paying 3% more on earnings above 250,000

    timb (449046)

  134. Forced. When the Democrats controlled both houses of congress and the White House. Hilarious.

    Comment by SPQR — 7/22/2011 @ 2:10 pm

    Anything Obama actually does is ignored. Because he read a speech from a teleprompter assuring his idiot supporters he didn’t really mean it. Those evil republicans somehow did it to him.

    The democrats own the deficit. They promised to cut it in half, and the American people trusted them with both houses and the Presidency. As a result, we had more debt added than than all Republican presidents saw, combined.

    But it’s the Republicans fault for ‘forcing’ it on them? This is the blind sheep Timb explaining how he must support democrats… but he seems to think Republicans run the show no matter who is in power.

    And remember, this blind sheep was whining that Tea Partiers would support Romney in a general election. He came here from a position of ‘only purists are honest’.

    Rick Perry is a spineless televangelist? What in the hell? That’s so funny! That’s the best they’ve got. The democrats burn his residence to the ground, make up a homophobic smear, and call him a coward?

    You’re scared of Rick Perry, Timb. He’s not scared of you. Anyway, I keep telling people I think Perry will be the next president. He’s not perfect, but he’s worth my support.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  135. avg daily debt comparison between Clinton, GWB and Obama:

    Clinton $551M per day

    GWBush: $1.6B per day

    BH Obama: $4.1B per day

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  136. Strange how you only worry about that debt when a Democrat is President

    Here’s a thought: maybe it isn’t the fact that a Democrat is President that has us worrying about debt; maybe it’s because the debt is so much bigger now and increasing exponentially that has us worried.

    Chuck Bartowski (4c6c0c)

  137. Comment by timb — 7/22/2011 @ 2:09 pm

    All non-Defense/discretionary spending was continued on a CR through 21 Jan 09. Only Defense was voted upon by the Pelosi-Reid Congress prior to the start of the FY.
    In the last week of Jan-09, they passed the non-Defense/discretionary appropriations which ramped up spending in FY-09 way beyond the budget submitted by the GWB administration the previous Winter – and they backdated the spending authorizations so that they (in effect) increased the spending starting 1 Oct 08 – spending levels that Bush had threatened a veto over.

    As usual: Fact Challenged!

    AD-RtR/OS! (7b7c30)

  138. JD and SPQR. How stupid are the two of you? the qoute is taken from the government own site!

    The Fiscal 2009 budget was submitted in 2008, since fiscal 2009 started on October 1, 2008. it was Bush’s last budget. Click on a link, morons,
    http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/browse.html

    timb (449046)

  139. The budget submitted by the President, AD, resulted in a trillion dollar deficit in FY 2008-2009. I am quoting from the government’s own site

    http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy09/browse.html

    timb (449046)

  140. (_@_}

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  141. The actual deficit in 2009 was $1.4 trillion.[1]

    That includes about several hundred billion added by Obama and the Democrats.

    Gerald A (9d78e8)

  142. We’s still be 4 years away from hitting the debt ceiling now if Obama hadn’t pissed away Trillions on useless phony projects.

    ropelight (1def19)

  143. “…700 billion of tax revenues will be added …”

    That re-election will put the economy so far down the porcelain convenience that tax revenues will fall with the new increased rates, and the deficit will probably approach $2T and comprise half of the budget.

    AD-RtR/OS! (7b7c30)

  144. Dustin has never heard of the filibuster? Weird

    timb (449046)

  145. That includes about several hundred billion added by Obama and the Democrats.

    Comment by Gerald A — 7/22/2011 @ 2:23 pm

    Yup.

    It’s pretty much the most shameless thing in the world to claim that’s a reason to support democrats.

    I don’t see many saying they are pleased with Bush’s deficits. But Obama’s are quite a bit worse. It’s just that hacks like Timb don’t really care about deficit spending. They just want to show hypocrisy and remove deficit spending from the list of issues worth discussing.

    In reality, deficit spending is easy to evaluate. The more of it, the worse, therefore, Bush is better than Obama on this issue. It’s just a fact.

    Sorry, timb. Try again with a new lie now.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  146. “…the qoute(sic) is taken from the government(sic) own site!…”

    And the Government never lies!

    AD-RtR/OS! (7b7c30)

  147. st like with SS. And the military. Name one talk show I listen to, you lying little ambulance chaser. One. Hint. I don’t listen, or watch, so any answer greater than zero, or beyond “I made that up” is a pie, since I told you the right answer.

    I long ago realized you lie about this, jd. Every word out of your mouth is a regurgitation of Limbaugh or Mark Levin. I should know, since I do listen to them. Meanwhile, you participated in Operation Chaos.

    Circumstantially, I think I made that case. still, it’s the internet and you won’t even accept that a budget proposed by Bush was his budget, so say whatever you will

    timb (449046)

  148. Timb is a hypocrite when it comes to the filibuster?

    Figures.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  149. BTW, timb, you keep bringing up the 2008 and 2009 budget.

    Which part of the government controls the budget?

    Isn’t it true this was Nancy Pelosi’s budget? Isn’t it true democrats wrote that budget?

    There hasn’t been a budget passed since the American people elected the GOP to take the house because the democrats in the Senate are refusing to pass a budget. Thus, the Pelosi Obama spending levels you blame on Bush (because you are a hack) continue.

    But the GOP House would probably return us much closer to sanity.

    Why are you supporting democrats while bringing up the deficit repeatedly, if it’s so easily shown the democrats spend much more?

    Dustin (b7410e)

  150. timmah journolist
    Klein KosKiddie KoolAid Klique
    get on your knees, dog!

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  151. Comment by Gerald A — 7/22/2011 @ 2:23 pm

    Yes, it includes the $800B Stimulus Package passed by Pelosi-Reid and signed by BHO; it includes 2/3rds of the TARP funds that didn’t have to be spent, but were, and it included around 200-300 Billion Dollars in increased non-Defense/discretionary spending that Bush had threated to veto.

    So: $1.4T actual increase in the Debt, less $800B in stimulus, and (say) $250B in increased spending comes to $1.05T in deficit spending for the Obamabots, giving Bush $350B of the total (including all of the TARP funds).

    That wicked profligate GWB doesn’t actually look too bad.
    And, Yes, I do miss him, as he was certainly better than the alternative(s).

    AD-RtR/OS! (7b7c30)

  152. Timb is a hypocrite.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  153. light a match timmah
    common courtesy called for
    when you stink up place

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  154. 145.Dustin has never heard of the filibuster? Weird

    When did the Republicans filibuster in 2010? Name one single filibuster in that year.

    So, if there was no Republican filibuster, why didn’t the Democrats pass their legislation?

    Chuck Bartowski (4c6c0c)

  155. Because they knew it was politically self-destructive (he answered meekly)?

    AD-RtR/OS! (7b7c30)

  156. Last notes from the Cato folks

    “I’m a big fan of criticizing Obama’s profligacy, but it is inaccurate and/or dishonest to blame him for Bush’s mistakes. At the risk of repeating my earlier post, the 2009 fiscal year began on October 1, 2008, and the vast majority of the spending for that year was the result of Bush Administration policies. Yes, Obama did add to the waste with the so-called stimulus, the omnibus appropriation, the CHIP bill, and the cash-for-clunkers nonsense, but as the chart illustrates, these boondoggles only amounted to just a tiny percentage of the FY2009 total — about $140 billion out of a $3.5 trillion budget.” ~ the Libertarian Cato Institute

    http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/defending…

    Also see,
    http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/dont-blam…

    Still, I’ve played with the modern Know nothings long enough. Must do work. Thanks, as always, for the semantic arguments, the parsings, the killing of all the messengers (why even the GAO’s own website lies), and the insults.

    Especially thanks to Dustin, who has just become an unbelievably rude jerk since the last time I played here. Sort of reminds me why this site is homogenous, dissent is just not allowed by the commentariot. The fact that it is by the host is, as always, commendable.

    timb (449046)

  157. Joshua Green in the Boston Globe:

    “…Barack Obama took office vowing to usher in a post-partisan era that would drain the toxic anger of the Bush years and focus the country on practical, long-overdue reforms. Like Bush, he was no doubt sincere in wanting to unite the country. Unlike Bush, he has governed in a manner largely consistent with that ideal. A lot of good it’s done him: Washington is more poisonous than ever. And as Congress courts disaster by threatening to default on the national debt, Obama must marvel at his plight. Practically a caricature of Spock-like rationality and sober caution, he’s presiding over a capital that has become completely unhinged…”

    H/T- James Taranto, BOTW – WSJ-Online

    And the legend builds.

    AD-RtR/OS! (7b7c30)

  158. Hey, timmie, don’t leave mad (but do leave), and don’t let the door slam you in the a$$ on your way out (too hard) – jerk!

    AD-RtR/OS! (7b7c30)

  159. Congressman Ron Paul may be a long shot to win the Republican presidential nomination, but he runs competitively with President Obama right now.

    The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey of Likely Voters shows Paul picking up 37% of the vote, while the president earns 41%.

    LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

    He will see a primary challenge if he’s that weak.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  160. “Ronald Reagan never saw spending fall below 21 percent of GDP.”

    timb – Are those spending figures based on Reagan’s budgets or Tip O’Neill’s budgets? You can’t have it both ways.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  161. I can’t wait for Ron Paul to comment on the $17T in loans made by the Fed to various banks, both here and overseas.
    I suppose it’ll have to wait until the B-P medication kicks in.

    Sonny Corleone (7b7c30)

  162. All right, I confess, “Sonny” is I, AD-RtR/OS!

    Damn... (7b7c30)

  163. timb – Same point on GWB’s budgets. Were they increased or decreased after they were submitted to Congress? Are you trying to tar both Reagan and GWB with the excesses of the Democrats? Yes, of course you are.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  164. Anyone who has been paying attention knows – if they are honest – that, over the last 6 months, the R’s have presented Ryan’s budget plan and the CCB. The Democrats haven’t even proposed a budget, much less a documented plan that can be scored, discussed, negotiated and voted on. As for the president, as the head of the CBO has said (and I’ll paraphrase), “we can’t score a speech”.

    The president and the Democrats in Congress knew this day was coming and they have been wholly unserious about dealing with it. If you just watched the president’s usual arrogant, petulant, pissy little lecture, you may acknowledge he doesn’t know how to do much more than try to shift blame and demagogue.
    Edit/Delete Message

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  165. Hey, Timmy… it’s true that Barack Hussein Obama inherited a tough situation. However, it’s also true that his actions and policies have made things markedly worse.

    And he asked for the job so you and the rest of his political supporters should cease the whining.

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  166. But…but…Colonel,
    Ear Leader submitted his FY-12 budget for consideration by the Senate and it was supported overwhelmingly by the Dem majority…
    Oh, Wait…
    the vote was: 97, Nay; Zero, Aye!

    AD-RtR/OS! (7b7c30)

  167. don’t go away mad
    go away educated
    timmahB bye bye

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  168. Suburbs and exurbs often vote Republican.

    and a tree grows in Brooklyn.

    ColonelHaiku (4de8c2)

  169. Comment by timb — 7/22/2011 @ 2:50 pm

    According to this analysis TARP added $245 billion and splits it between Bush and Obama and estimates the recession added $420 billion of deficit due to falling revenues.

    http://www.capjournal.com/articles/2010/01/26/blog/behind_govt_lines/doc4b5f665672007119229024.txt

    Obama owns $200 billion from the stimulus, $122 billion from his share of TARP and $20 billion from the omnibus bill, for around $350 billion.

    While I’m not an expert at these numbers, I can’t figure out how Mitchell came up with only $140 billion.

    TARP is over with regardless of who you attribute it to. The two wars are winding down. Revenues have even increased – running about 10% above last year – as the economy has recovered somewhat. Yet the deficit is projected to come in at $1.4 trillion again this year. Why is that? It’s because they’ve added massive new spending. There’s no way to blame a penny of that on Bush and revenue losses from the recession are not as much of a factor. Actually the omnibus bill and the stimulus didn’t really kick in very much yet in 2009 which is one reason focusing on 2009 is misleading.

    The “It was all Bush’s spending and the recession” theme to explain the 2009 deficit, while not totally accurate, makes Obama look even worse, not better if you actually stop and think about it. Hint: It isn’t 2009 any more.

    Gerald A (9d78e8)

  170. ABC news is ALL BARACK CHANNEL.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  171. Facts don’t matter to demagogues like Timb.

    DohBiden (d54602)

  172. Like the Dana Who Isn’t a Lawyer,

    I’ll take that wager!

    Dana has it exactly right; a state legislature may make whatever provision it likes for choosing its electors. California may provide that they be chosen at random from the New York City telephone directory, and NY may similarly provide for choosing them from the Omaha directory. A state may provide that candidates for elector duel it out. And it may provide that the electors shall be awarded to whoever wins the national popular vote. I wouldn’t support such a measure, but it’s entirely constitutional.

    Milhouse (8f4156)

  173. Yes, Dana, but at least in ME and NE the awarding of Electoral Votes is tied directly to the votes cast in that State, and not influenced by what happens in other States.

    How is that a constitutional argument? Who says a state’s electoral votes should have any connection with votes cast in the state? States don’t even have to have presidential elections if they don’t want to, you know.

    Milhouse (8f4156)

  174. Well like I said ABC is all barack channel.

    DohBiden (d54602)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.4562 secs.