Patterico's Pontifications

6/30/2011

Geert Wilders Takes a Victory Lap (Update: Welcome Instapundit Readers)

Filed under: General — Aaron Worthing @ 5:03 pm

[Guest post by Aaron Worthing; if you have tips, please send them here.  Or by Twitter @AaronWorthing.]

Update: Thanks for the Instalink and welcome to Instapundit’s readers.  While you are here, you might also check out my piece at Big Journalism: Fourteen Clear Factual Errors in Richard Stengal’s Essay on the Constitution (And I Am Looking For Your Help).  This is where I am trying to draw attention to a journalistic scandal I have dubbed “Stengelgate,” that is even receiving some attention on Fox News.  And of course check out the many great posts at this site.

——————————-

I heard over a week ago that Geert Wilders had been acquitted and I didn’t bring it up, here, because a few other stories were dominating, and because frankly they had falsely reported that he had been acquitted in the past.  But when I saw this editorial by him, helpfully available for free at the Wall Street Journal, I had to post it.

In Defense of ‘Hurtful’ Speech

A Dutch court vindicates a politician’s right to air controversial views on Islam.

By Geert Wilders

Yesterday was a beautiful day for freedom of speech in the Netherlands. An Amsterdam court acquitted me of all charges of hate speech after a legal ordeal that lasted almost two years. The Dutch people learned that political debate has not been stifled in their country, and they learned they are still allowed to speak critically about Islam and that resistance against Islamization is not a crime.

I was brought to trial despite being an elected politician and the leader of the third-largest party in the Dutch parliament. I was not prosecuted for anything I did, but for what I had said. My view on Islam is that it is not so much a religion as a totalitarian political ideology with religious elements. While there are many moderate Muslims, Islam’s political ideology is radical and has global ambitions. I expressed these views in newspaper interviews, op-ed articles and in my 2008 documentary, “Fitna.”

I was dragged to court by leftist and Islamic organizations that were bent not only on silencing me but on stifling public debate. My accusers claimed that I deliberately “insulted” and “incited discrimination and hatred” against Muslims. The Dutch penal code states in its articles 137c and 137d that anyone who either “publicly, verbally or in writing or image, deliberately expresses himself in any way that incites hatred against a group of people” or “in any way that insults a group of people because of their race, their religion or belief, their hetero- or homosexual inclination or their physical, psychological or mental handicap, will be punished.”

Read the whole thing.  He’s earned the right to it.

Update: If you have trouble reading it at the WSJ, try his own site instead.

[Posted and authored by Aaron Worthing.]

153 Responses to “Geert Wilders Takes a Victory Lap (Update: Welcome Instapundit Readers)”

  1. someone needs to remind people that they do NOT have the right to not be offended.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  2. It’s just a coincidence that Hizbut Tahir, is having
    their yearly get together in the Netherlands

    ian cormac (d380ce)

  3. I don’t think this article is free at WSJ.

    The author posted it to his website, though.

    “Citizens should never allow themselves to be silenced. I have spoken, I speak and I shall continue to speak.”

    Dustin (b7410e)

  4. This is great and long overdue news for Wilders. I hope the pearl clutchers at our public universities who continue to impose illegal speech codes on students take note of this verdict as well as the feckless poofters in the Obama Administration who are unwilling to offend their own shadows.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  5. is anyone having trouble viewing the WSJ article? because i don’t have a subscription and i had no problem.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  6. The mystery remains why the political left has allied itself with radical Islam. Perhaps it is a “marriage” of convenience and, if Islam starts to looks as if it is winning, the left will pull back. On the other hand, it may be that both have the same enemy, free, civil society organized on traditional Judeo-Christian principles.

    Anti-Semitism has grown on the left over 50 years and I’m not sure why. Jews have remained loyal to the left in politics long past the point when one would wonder if they had lost the ability to recognize an enemy. Secular Jews were very late to recognize the dangers of Hitler and it may be the same thing. It may be a longing to be accepted by the secular left. After all, many early Bolsheviks were Jews. In fact, this was one of Hitler’s complaints about the Jews. It didn’t do them much good when former seminarian Stalin took against them.

    I think Wilders is right about Islam and wonder when Muslims start to recognize the handicap they put on themselves.

    Mike K (8f3f19)

  7. Years ago it was a stereotype for all(or most) southern voters to be democrats. Now the wheel has turned, many(if not most), seem to be republican. Sadly, being republican seems to be synoymous with being a “conservative”. Just a few decades ago the democrats were the “mainstream conservatives” and the republicans were viewed as the progressives, and yes, even liberal! I’m a democrat and a conservative, we’re still around. Maybe I’m an endangered species and didn’t know it.

    The Tamandua (4de175)

  8. Tam, were you able to view the WSJ article? Just curious. I wasn’t able to.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  9. What is the WSJ article?

    The Tamandua (4de175)

  10. Aaron, I can only read the first paragraph on the WSJ site. I think you have to register at the site to red the whole thing, and I’m not registered.
    (That, or you do need to subscribe.)

    The mystery remains why the political left has allied itself with radical Islam.

    I’d say that it’s not so much an alliance as the jihadis taking advantage of Leftist naivete and Leftist tendency to see colonialism/imperialism under every rock in First World/Third World relations.

    Jews have remained loyal to the left in politics long past the point when one would wonder if they had lost the ability to recognize an enemy.

    It’s a hangover of the 19th and early 20th century, when anti-Semitism was rife among nationalists, Catholic devots, and others whose political progeny (most of whom, of course, no longer feature anti-Semitism) make their home on the political Right, and anti-anti-Semitism was a feature of the political Left. (The Dreyfus Affair is a good example of all that at work.)

    When the great grand father beat your great grandfather up, and the grandfather spat at you, it may be hard to trust the current generation when it says it’s your friend; and when the great grandfather helped you after you got beat up, gratitude may make it hard to notice that the current generation has no qualms in beating you up.

    Speaking personally–it was the anti-Semitism of the Left which first made me move away from the Democrats and towards my current mode (libertarian).

    JBS (cc1ec4)

  11. What is the WSJ article?

    Comment by The Tamandua —

    The link to Geert’s editorial.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  12. Maybe I’m an endangered species and didn’t know it.

    You are.

    (Speaking as someone who could have always been described as a very conservative Democrat before moved away from them ten years ago.)

    JBS (cc1ec4)

  13. JBS, I had the same trouble. I’m not sure if it’s just us, though. I posted a link to the same content in comment 3. It’s a nice short editorial. Worth a read.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  14. That’s odd, I can’t view it either.

    The Tamandua (4de175)

  15. HA. They hate you as much as they hate me!

    HAHAHAHA

    Just kidding. It’s probably a subscriber only link, and Aaron somehow hacked through the paywall. He’s a bit of a troublemaker.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  16. The trial was a disgrace and a farce from the very start. It was essentially a political show trial, which has done immense damage to the trust that Dutch people put in their legal system.
    I was shocked and almost desperate when this ugly thing started. Now that Wilders has been acquitted, I am relieved, sort of. But it’s frightening to contemplate what the alliance of extreme leftists and jihadists will do to our democratic freedoms and our open society if our naive elites let them have their way.

    Greetings from Mokum Alef

    Mokum (20a906)

  17. “It’s probably a subscriber only link”

    Dustin – I had no problem reading it, but then again, I do have a subscription.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  18. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFvMZTnr37s

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl7lecaTYK8

    The have limits on free speech in much of Europe, including the netherlands. Given the laws existence his acquittal is absurd, but the laws themselves should not exist.

    The videos are of religious extremists you and he support.

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  19. Hey, long time no see, Daley.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  20. Dustin, you can fill me in on what it says. I’m sure you will get the skinny on it, “I think you are clever that way”.

    The Tamandua (4de175)

  21. Here in NZ, even a high court decision can’t stop these guys.

    http://halfdone.wordpress.com/2010/12/01/a-disturbing-case/

    scrubone (51f8b6)

  22. David Horowitz wrote “Unholy Alliance” to explain how and why the American Left and Islamic Jihadi’s were united against the USA. It’s available on Amazon at Patterico’s side bar.

    Or, check-out the concept online: type “Horowitz, Unholy Alliance” into your search engine.

    ropelight (d202c0)

  23. Tam, Aaron added an extra link in the update for us folk WSJ doesn’t like.

    But the skinny was that public debate leads to enlightment, others have been convicted of mere offensive speech, and citizens must never allow themselves to be silenced.

    On that note here’s a link to my favorite Mohammad cartoon. Not that it’s even technically a cartoon, but it’s my favorite. If anyone wants to publish a cartoon depicting Mohammad on that blog, email an image to cjlimacus+edmd at gmail.com

    Dustin (b7410e)

  24. That was hysterical!

    The Tamandua (4de175)

  25. I know, Tam! I tried many times to be that funny, and that guy appears to have just thrown something much better together in 5 seconds.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  26. Greetings:

    I’m afraid I’m still in the “the process is the punishment” camp on this one. The Dutch potentates managed to tie up Mr. Wilders time and resources for two years and there is, no doubt, no hint of an apology on the horizon anytime soon. If Mr. Wilders got by by the skin of his teeth, I’m sure many of the Dutch got the message to quiet down about Islam or find themselves similarly situated. You know, that old “to encourage the others” bit.

    11B40 (4fd412)

  27. I’m sure many of the Dutch got the message to quiet down about Islam or find themselves similarly situated.

    I’m sure you’re 100% correct about that.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  28. Zero

    > Given the laws existence his acquittal is absurd, but the laws themselves should not exist.

    That is exactly right. he was guilty, but they let him go anyway.

    i would have preferred that they be struck down under their constitution, but oh well…

    and please don’t bother with bbc reports. i don’t trust them. But if you want to play paste the disturbing image, here’s one for you.

    [image won’t post. go here. http://www.tip.co.il/images/salhvet.jpg]

    That is Shalhevet Pass is an isreali settler intentionally murdered by the anti-semites you support. And given their viscious enemy, and the lies regularly peddled by the BBC, you’ll excuse me if i give them the benefit of the doubt.

    The isrealis face an enemy with no sense of honor. They will use ambulances for suicide bombers. They will rape a muslim woman and tell her the only way to cleanse herself of the sin of being raped is to murder other people. They will strap a bomb to a retarded man. They will slit the throat of a baby.

    I have said it before, but it bears repeating:

    [I]t’s important to remember the cruelty these “human rights advocates” engage in. There is no reason to intentionally murder a baby, unless you believe that there is something about that child that makes him inherently evil. They don’t kill Jews because of anything they have done to them. They kill them out of irrational hate—simply because they are Jews.

    Over the years, the isrealis have suffered the per-capita equivalent of 17 September 11′s. Let me tell you, if we had 17 September 11′s, we would f—ing nuke the middle east. Even if your BBC report is true (and i give them no presumption of truth, here), they are still pretty restrained, all things considered.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  29. btw, don’t say retarded, even in quoting me. it will cause the comment to be filtered.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  30. The mystery remains why the political left has allied itself with radical Islam.

    I thnik the reason is this: the radical left would love to be able to silence their opponents via violence but they themselves do not have the stomach for doing it themselves. The radical left admires those who kill their political opponents (e.g. Stalin, Pol Pot, Che, etc.) and this, I believe, is the true source of their admiration.

    EcoDude (8f495a)

  31. Great day.

    teapartydoc (c38f30)

  32. William Yelveracist is a homophobic hilljack pig.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  33. I’m thinking about becoming Muslim so I can be homophobic and misogynist.
    Love to screw with the progressive left.
    Gays delenda est.

    mike in nc (0899bf)

  34. That cartoon is hilarious, Aaron. Very witty.

    The mystery remains why the political left has allied itself with radical Islam.

    Counter culture? I admit I don’t get it myself.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  35. How many Palestinian children have been killed? How many Israeli? The numbers tell the tale.
    http://www.btselem.org/statistics

    That image is war porn. Google “dead Palestinian children” if you want.
    These children aren’t dead.
    http://www.salem-news.com/gphotos/1295059778.bmp

    40 years of military occupation. Settlers from Ohio and Melbourne who claim g-d gave them the land that other have lived on for… how long?

    http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297%2810%2900246-6#

    “Abraham’s Children in the Genome Era: Major Jewish Diaspora Populations Comprise Distinct Genetic Clusters with Shared Middle Eastern Ancestry”

    So what right do returnees after 2000 years have to expel their cousins from their land? But you would say all Arabs are alike, that Palestinians are Jordanians; and Mexicans are Equadorians, and Austrians are Germans.

    Europe killed the Jews, and look who replaced them. Now that’s funny.

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  36. Is zero an imbecile?

    JD (318f81)

  37. ____________________________________________

    The mystery remains why the political left has allied itself with radical Islam.

    It’s the idiotic tendency of liberals to sympathize with the underdog, whether real or imagined, or to believe compassion absolves one of incompetency in identifying the good and bad in people and situations.

    The response towards Israel and the Palestinians, or towards Western Christianity (ie, the imperialist, racist, capitalist First World) and Middle-Eastern Islamism (ie, the sad, dejected, long-suffering Third World) — is very similar to the variety of people on the left who get weepy eyed over convicted killers being sentenced to death — or wanting to give such felons a lot of benefit of the doubt — while showing less (perhaps far less) concern for the victims of those murderers, including surviving family members and friends.

    Mark (411533)

  38. “Is zero an imbecile?”

    JD – Just another lefty zero.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  39. It’s so sad how many Muslims and Arabs die, often from the choices of Islamofacists, zero. However describing Israel as a military occupation strikes me as pretty horrible. They won wars of obvious self defense. They took territory essential to self defense. Wherever you currently live, a war was probably fought to settle the border around it. Do you give your home to the previous country or people?

    But apparently Israel always has to live to a completely different rule.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  40. Zero – Your anti-Semitic links and rants have nothing to do with the subject of this post, but it’s always nice to see a loon at work.

    Please keep your Stormfront membership up to date.

    What other names have you used to comment here?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  41. To read a WSJ article without having a subscription, just google the article headline and right click on the search result, then select open in new window.

    Hell to pay (f6a525)

  42. Zero

    > How many Palestinian children have been killed?

    By which side?

    > How many Israeli? The numbers tell the tale.

    Lol more anti-Semitic lies.

    > These children aren’t dead.

    Of course not, they are not Israeli.

    > 40 years of military occupation.

    40 years of people trying to commit genocide against them.

    > Settlers from Ohio and Melbourne who claim g-d gave them the land that other have lived on for… how long?

    God and military victory. Why is Israel the only nation on earth that is not allowed to keep territory won in war?

    Israeli land was acquired 3 ways. 1) purchase. 2) when Israel was born, many Palestinians left so that the various Muslim armies could more easily massacre the Jews. For some reason, the Jews decided not to let them come back. Imagine that! 3) whipping @$$ in the 6 days war. And the Israelis had a right to keep that land and kick out the inhabitants. Instead they didn’t and they said, we will give up most of this land, if you only agree to live with us in peace.

    Please don’t pretend all this jew-murder is about their so-called oppression. They were killing Jews regularly in that area since the 19th century in pograms. In the middle of World War II, their grand mufti proposed opening a death camp in Jerusalem. And in the war for independence and the six days war, when it was planes and tanks v. planes and tank, the Muslims used their armies to attack civilian targets. Did you ever wonder why the Israelis won so easily? Here’s a hint: if one side attacks your airbases while you are dropping bombs on a bus stop, you’re not going to win that war.

    They train their kids to love murder more than life itself. So spare me concern for the children. If you cared about the children you would tell them to make peace and start fixing their backwater territories.

    > Europe killed the Jews, and look who replaced them. Now that’s funny.

    Yeah, the usual anti-Semitic Jews = Nazis meme. Except it is overwhelmingly one side that intentionally murders the other’s children.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  43. btw, zero, you are supposed to be posting under one name.

    or should i say “Bernard F?”

    And “Fools Russian?”

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  44. Boy, “Aaron”, you are a terminator! You oughta think about teaching world history. That was a priceless little piece of summation. Good work counselor.

    The Tamandua (4de175)

  45. I’m sure many of the Dutch got the message to quiet down about Islam or find themselves similarly situated

    I have a Dutch friend who has been here for 25 years, yet his family remains in Holland. According to him, his siblings and Dutch friends find Wilders a fringe-dweller, a bit of a nut and mostly disregard him. They remain intentionally self-insulated from the influence of Islam in their country and if they do note it, it’s with a let’s embrace everyone multi-culti sort of thing.

    They might be very representative of the majority of middle-class, well educated Dutch. My friend has tried talking to them repeatedly about what is happening but ignorance is apparently bliss.

    It reminds me of the frog in the pot of boiling water.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  46. Ask Theo Van Gogh, oh right Bouyeri, murdered him. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, had to flee to this country, crickets.

    ian cormac (d380ce)

  47. dana

    incidentally, frogs don’t actually behave that way in boiling water.

    but it is a great metaphor nonetheless.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  48. Aaron, I think we all know that. I was simply taking a metaphorical liberty. It seemed rather appropriate.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  49. dana

    i didn’t know that until i read a cracked article recently… lol

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  50. Hmm … interesting that he advocates a “First Amendment clause” in Dutch law and apparently expects his readers to understand what that means. American exceptionalism anyone?

    Mike (4c24e2)

  51. “2) when Israel was born, many Palestinians left so that the various Muslim armies could more easily massacre the Jews.”

    Again.. wow. You ignore the consensus among Israeli historians about that one. The argument these days is about whether expulsion was necessary not whether it too place.

    You might learn something from this.
    NY Times March 1947:

    “Whatever the degree of their superiority complex, however, the Jews are certainly confident of their ability to bring the Arabs to terms – by persuasion if possible, by might if necessary. The program of the largest terrorist group, the Irgun Zvai Leumi, is to evacuate the British forces from Palestine and declare a Zionist state west of the Jordan, and “we will take care of the Arabs.”

    NY Times, May 3rd, 1948 stating “200,000 Arabs are now listed as homeless”:

    “It is believed that possibly 50,000 Arabs left Jaffa, thousands of them by sea. Other thousands have fled inland, large numbers of them to become cave dwellers in the historic caves of Beit Jibrin, northwest of Hebron…at least 40,000 Arabs left Haifa when the combined Haganah and Irgun Zvai Leumi force stormed the Arab market place and conquered all of the city except the British-held waterfront. From Jerusalem wealthy Arabs have fled to near-by countries, the poorer ones into the hills and villages.”

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  52. To add to Aaron’s statement at 43, the line:

    Why is Israel the only nation on earth that is not allowed to keep territory won in war?

    should actually be:

    Why is Israel the only nation on earth that is not allowed to keep territory won in defensive war?

    UN ‘International Laws’ theoretically forbid acknowledging the taking of territory by aggressive war – this is why the Russians tried to claim that the Georgians ‘started it’ and they were ‘retaliating’ until Bush moved forces there as a trip-trigger. (Tell this to the Greeks of Cyprus, etc, etc.)

    Everyone sane acknowledges that the Jews haven’t started any of these wars, thus their taking of territory should be valid under international law, custom, etc.

    luagha (5cbe06)

  53. Thank you for the stormfront perspective.

    JD (b98cae)

  54. zero

    > You ignore the consensus among Israeli historians about that one.

    consensus doesn’t impress me. facts do. prove me factually wrong.

    Oh, and really? the NY Times? give me a break.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  55. Laugha

    a fair enough correction. :-)

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  56. the leftys such as Chuckie will boo this like they now boo anything nice said about bush.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  57. @Mark 7:41 pm

    It’s the idiotic tendency of liberals to sympathize with the underdog, whether real or imagined…

    During the American Civil War, a lot of European liberals (Gladstone, for instance) supported the Confederacy because they were “rebels fighting for independence” – just like the Greeks or Poles.

    Rich Rostrom (1e3f90)

  58. “The argument these days is about whether expulsion was necessary not whether it too place.”

    zero – Where else were the Jews expelled by Arab nations at that time supposed to go?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  59. zero mostel – Is Obama going to run on an Antisemitism platform next year or is going to continue to try to mask his policies? My guess is he’s going to go with the masking approach because his donations might suffer. Thoughts?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  60. zero mostel – Were you born with your hate or did your parents beat it into you?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  61. Like i said on patterico back in april the lefty trolls hate anything nice about bush……..at least i think that is what i said.

    Anyways Zero Mostel is living proof of that.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  62. Read Benny Morris. Read Avi Shlaim (I won’t even bother mentioning Goyim) They’re two of the so called “New Historians” and they’re not new anymore. Read Tont Judt

    Maybe you should go to Israel sometime and listen to the debates there. More serious than they are in the US.
    “consensus doesn’t impress me. facts do. prove me factually wrong.”
    http://www.btselem.org/
    A debate
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHeL0vyoWvw

    Look up the famous Benny Morris interview. This is all old news.

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  63. Anything nice said about Bush or Israel is met with severe nastyness.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  64. Zero,

    The palestinians have had a plethora of chances at peace. In 1948, and thereafter. They have rejected a reasonable compromise each time.

    No intelligent rational person believes that the palestinians want anything but bloodshed and war. They create their own hell and are happy in it. to blame the Isrealies is absurd.

    And, by the way, I love your little asides about people who have been living there for ___ amount of time. there was never a palestine except for what Britian created and palestinian is not a true ethnicity. It’s all made up. the jews ahve been there just as long if not longer (and history indicates that there was in fact a jewish state there, while there is no evidence of a historical “palestine”), so that argument is hogwash.

    If you want to be angry at someone for keeping the “palestinians” down, you should be angry at Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt and the rest of the middle east despots who use it as a cause celeb to distract their own people from the truth about their terrible and corrupct gov’ts.

    Monkeytoe (5234ab)

  65. I love how Zero thinks its extreme to point out that 1) islam is the font of almost all modern terrosim; 2) islamic migrants don’t assimilate and instead try to change the laws of the country they move into to be more islamic and 3) islamic culture is incredibly brutal to women.

    Stating facts is now extremist. Go figure. I guess being mainstream means lying and pretending teh truth does not exist.

    Monkeytoe (5234ab)

  66. Look up the famous Benny Morris interview. This is all old news.

    Comment by zero mostel — 7/1/2011 @ 11:36 am

    Yes, jews are evil and islam is the religion of peace.

    Monkeytoe (5234ab)

  67. 67.Look up the famous Benny Morris interview. This is all old news.

    Comment by zero mostel — 7/1/2011 @ 11:36 am

    Yes, jews are evil and islam is the religion of peace.

    Comment by Monkeytoe — 7/1/2011 @ 12:09 pm

    And mohammad wasn’t a raping, pillaging, child molesting villian. None of that is true – even though he married and had sex with a 9 year old girl, murdered all of his “enemies” and stole from them. The only “religious” leader of any major religion who went around murdering, raping and plundering.

    The religion of peace. TM

    Monkeytoe (5234ab)

  68. It’s been called Palestine for thousands of years.
    As to the the who and the what, I follow the genetics.

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  69. zero

    lol to prove it you post something on youtube? oy vey.

    > As to the the who and the what, I follow the genetics.

    i follow morality. The jews had a right to say “enough.” they were far more oppressed in israel prior to their revolution than we in america were prior to ours.

    They have been continually massacred by their neighbors for about 200 years and you call THEM the nazis.

    if the jews were nazis, they would have killed every man, woman and child in “palestine” ages ago.

    but, hey, illuminate the point for me. what in whose genes makes it okay to intentionally murder a baby in her crib?

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  70. 69.It’s been called Palestine for thousands of years.
    As to the the who and the what, I follow the genetics.

    Comment by zero mostel — 7/1/2011 @ 12:12 pm

    No, it has not. The genetics are that everyone in the region is a semite. There is no “palestinian” gene. that is simply idiotic.

    the palestinians are murderious and bloodthirsty. Not all, but the “leaders” adn those who speak for them. If they wanted peace, they would have had peace 50 years ago. They have never wanted peace and never will want peace. But useful idiots like you will swallow whatever anti-american, anti-western line of propaganda that is thrown your way to keep propping them up and allowing them to continue their killing and hatred.

    Monkeytoe (5234ab)

  71. And, by the way, if we are using history as to who owns what today, I believe that Judea was there well before any claimed “Palestine”.

    so that argument is idiotic as it means the land belongs to the Jews anyway. If we really are going to play the “who was here first” game – the jews win. Islam and “palestine” came along much later.

    Monkeytoe (5234ab)

  72. The Palestinians want peace? That must be news to Hamas and Fatah. They can’t even stop killing each other!

    Ron Brynaert (e7577d)

  73. “i follow morality. The jews had a right to say “enough.” they were far more oppressed in israel prior to their revolution than we in america were prior to ours.”

    Our oppression, and the attempt at our extermination was in Europe. There was no Holocaust in the middle east.
    In 1947 the vast majority of Jews were recent immigrants. Are you going to argue that too?

    Related: here’s a map showing the expansion of Israel over time.

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  74. Our oppression, and the attempt at our extermination was in Europe. There was no Holocaust in the middle east.
    In 1947 the vast majority of Jews were recent immigrants. Are you going to argue that too?

    vast majority? Please. Are you claiming that the Jews were not in Jerusalem and Judea and hadn’t been there for thousands of years?

    And, are there many freely practicing jews in Iran? Iraq? Syria? Saudi Arabia? Meanwhile, muslims are free to practice Islam in Isreal. Don’t pretend at moral equivalence. Islam will lose every single time based on the facts.

    Monkeytoe (5234ab)

  75. It’s funny that a clown like Zero can come on here and pretend that “palestinians” want peace, when their own leaders have repeatedly turned down peace b/c their very charters claim that they must wipe out isreal.

    I guess we have to take Zero’s word over the word of Hammas, Hezbollah, et al. Don’t believe your lying eyes, believe what I am telling you right now!!

    Monkeytoe (5234ab)

  76. Zero

    > Our oppression, and the attempt at our extermination was in Europe

    Now you claim to be jewish? bwahahahahahahha

    > There was no Holocaust in the middle east.

    No, there were pograms. And a grand mufti who wanted a holocaust there.

    > In 1947 the vast majority of Jews were recent immigrants. Are you going to argue that too?

    Actually, factually you might be wrong, but who the f— cares? You seem to think the Palestinians own the land due to their blood. I don’t.

    Seriously, will you explain to me how genetics factors into any of this?

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  77. THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS AN INTERIM REPORT ON THE CIVIL ADMINISTRATION OF PALESTINE

    “The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil. After the persecutions in Russia forty years ago, the movement of the Jews to Palestine assumed larger proportions. Jewish agricultural colonies were founded. They developed the culture of oranges and gave importance to the Jaffa orange trade. They cultivated the vine, and manufactured and exported wine. They drained swamps. They planted eucalyptus trees. They practised, with modern methods, all the processes of agriculture. There are at the present time 64 of these settlements, large and small, with a population of some 15,000. Every traveller in Palestine who visits them is impressed by the contrast between these pleasant villages, with the beautiful stretches of prosperous cultivation about them and the primitive conditions of life and work by which they are surrounded.”

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  78. zero

    the league of nations? bwahahahahahahaha!!!

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  79. “Now you claim to be jewish? bwahahahahahahha”

    Zero Mostel?

    If I were a rich man,
    Daidle deedle daidle
    Daidle daidle deedle daidle dum

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  80. um, the real zero is dead. god rest his smutty soul. :-)

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  81. In answer to Mike K at #6, he should take the time to read Ann Coulter’s latest excellent book ‘Demonic.’ The reason leftists are pro-Islam is because leftists are the party of the mob, and their tactic, nay, their way of life is to jump in front of any mob and use its movement to get pushed into power.

    In answer to Zero, he should actually read Benny Morris instead of watching him on television. He’ll get a better idea of what he’s all about. Benny Morris suffers the same problem as Goldstone did in the Goldstone report… he puts out a serious, historical-from-the-leftist-perspective historical work that says, for example, that Jewish terrorist groups managed, in their most devastating year, to account for 68 casualties and all the leftists and Arabs go “AH HAH!!!”

    And they don’t get that Arab terrorist groups managed at least a thousand casualties in the same time period of action.

    An honest admission of guilt to jaywalking does not erase my enemy’s willing crimes of murder.

    And the history of the word ‘Palestine’ is well known. It is the name of a province in the Roman empire and then again the name of a province in the Ottoman empire. Always a province or an owned territory, never a state or a nationality or a culture or a language of its own.

    Saying someone is a ‘Palestinian’ means as much as calling someone a ‘Texan’ or a ‘Virginian.’ Both Texans and Virginians are Americans with minor differences the same way that Lebanese and Palestinians and Jordanians are all Arabs with minor differences.

    luagha (5cbe06)

  82. Luagha

    > Saying someone is a ‘Palestinian’ means as much as calling someone a ‘Texan’ or a ‘Virginian.’

    As a Texan ex-pat, i have to take issue with that.

    But then again there is another difference between Texas and Palestine:

    > [Palestine was a]lways a province or an owned territory, never a state or a nationality or a culture or a language of its own.

    And of course Texas was briefly its own country, something i mentioned here.

    http://patterico.com/2011/04/21/a-declaration-of-independence-%E2%80%9Ci-have-firearms-and-i%E2%80%99m-willing-to-use-them-if-necessary%E2%80%9D/

    i agree with your bottom line, but Texas doesn’t fit there. still seriously, where Americans feel exceptional compared to the world, texans feel exceptional compared to Americans, too. i don’t mean necessarily better, but just… apart.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  83. Sorry, should have stuck with ‘Virginian’ for a better example.

    luagha (5cbe06)

  84. Oh, my god. Zero is claiming that there were no Jews in Jerusalum prior to 1947?

    that is someone who got all their learnin from the protocols of the elders of zion. He must have been “educated” in a masdra. Not even a public school kid is that stupid and ignorant.

    Monkeytoe (4fa094)

  85. “Oh, my god. Zero is claiming that there were no Jews in Jerusalum prior to 1947?”

    In 1914 Jews were about 7 percent of the population of Palestine. By ’47 they were about 1/3.

    “And the history of the word ‘Palestine’ is well known. It is the name of a province in the Roman empire.”

    It goes back to the ancient Egyptians. Ever heard of the Philistines?

    Palestinians are from a place. It’s called Palestine. If it was called something else it’s still a place.

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  86. Palestine, was a Roman coinage, a derivation of Filistin, like the former residents prior to the Jews, the Romans broke up the nation of Israel by 135, and spread them across the known world.

    ian cormac (d380ce)

  87. “the Romans broke up the nation of Israel by 135, and spread them across the known world.”

    Incorrect

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  88. zero mostel – Are you the same troll who claimed he lost relatives in a concentration camp a few years back?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  89. “In 1914 Jews were about 7 percent of the population of Palestine. By ’47 they were about 1/3.”

    Zero – What is your position on U.S. immigration policies?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  90. “Zero – What is your position on U.S. immigration policies?”

    I don’t think the Romani/Gypsies have the right to annex half of Cleveland and declare an independent republic.
    Does that help?

    zero mostel (d80b5a)


  91. I hope the pearl clutchers at our public universities who continue to impose illegal speech codes on students take note of this verdict

    They won’t, but when they don’t, there’s always THE FIRE for them.

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)


  92. I don’t think the Romani/Gypsies have the right to annex half of Cleveland and declare an independent republic. Does that help?

    Ah, but does the US government have the right to take, oh, South Florida, and give it to the Cubans?

    Oh, wait, they already did that.

    *never mind*.

    Emily Litella (c9dcd8)

  93. >“And the history of the word ‘Palestine’ is well known. It is the name of a province in the Roman empire.”
    >It goes back to the ancient Egyptians. Ever heard of the Philistines?
    >Palestinians are from a place. It’s called Palestine. If it was called something else it’s still a place.

    And yet, what evidence we have does not and cannot show that the people we today call the ‘Palestinians’ have any relation to the tribe(s) known as the Philistines.

    luagha (46a605)

  94. Zero

    > I don’t think the Romani/Gypsies have the right to annex half of Cleveland and declare an independent republic.

    Have we been slaughtering them?

    The right the jews in isreal excercised was the exact same right we excercised against britain: the right to fight for your sacred right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, to rebel against tyranny and set things up so it doesn’t reappear.

    If the jews in isreal were wrong to rebel, we were wrong to rebel against England. The british weren’t pograming the americans, you know.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  95. zero does not think through the implications of his bigotry with respect U.AS. policies. A typical brain-dead intolerant prog mouthing talking points given to him on some blog.

    I pity the fool and will pray for him, whether he likes it or not.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  96. Actually, the parallel is closer to our own country, Israel’s a little over 60 years old, about as old as we were in 1851, after the Mexican war, by which time, we have at least
    doubled the land we had acquired originally.

    ian cormac (d380ce)

  97. “And yet, what evidence we have does not and cannot show that the people we today call the ‘Palestinians’ have any relation to the tribe(s) known as the Philistines.”

    Comment 36 above.
    Though that doesn’t refer to the Philistines as such. Enough to say the Palestinians are native to the area.

    “Ah, but does the US government have the right to take, oh, South Florida, and give it to the Cubans?”

    And whole swaths of Brooklyn to the Italians. The kicker is the Germans: still the largest ethnic group in the country even after we fought the bastards twice.

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  98. zero

    Btw, you never explained how the genetics makes the palestinians right?

    Are you asserting that they have a right as a matter of blood to the land?

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  99. I see …. Jooooooooooooooooooooooooooooos.

    Haley Osment (e21267)

  100. Zero wears a medallion of St. Pancake around his neck.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  101. Now getting back to the subject of the thread, Holland gave up on Indonesia, about 60 years,
    yet there is still the Salafi elements, that took over after the Moluccan crisis in the 70s, Bouyeri
    is Moroccan, was radicalized in Amsterdam, the fellow Somali natives that chased Hirsi Ali, out
    of Holland and out of Washington, were radicalized
    there, it’s not about Palestine really,

    ian cormac (d380ce)

  102. The Philistines were a confederation of invaders from the Aegean Sea and the Anatolian areas. They were not Semitic and not the ancestors of any modern-day Arabs.

    luagha (46a605)

  103. “Btw, you never explained how the genetics makes the palestinians right? Are you asserting that they have a right as a matter of blood to the land?”

    Is it blood that connects me to the land of my birth?

    The Palestianians are genetically almost identical to Jews. Even Ben Gurion admitted they were among other things the descendants of Jews who never left. That’s been confirmed now by genetics. But you’re still asking me if Palestinians have more right to their land then immigrants have to kick them off it. After 2000 years. Where was your family 2000 years ago? Do you have the right to return to whatever European country your family came from 100, 200, 350 years ago? Because it wasn’t longer than that. Go back and dick the locals out? It’s the same question but somehow I guess you think of it as different.

    The obscene joke is that European Jews thought of themselves once as German and French and Polish and then they found out they weren’t, dying in the process. And now everyone says they never were and the Palestinians pay the price for the crimes of Europe.

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  104. “But you’re still asking me if Palestinians have more right to their land then immigrants have to kick them off it.”

    zero – It’s the above part of your lies I have a problem with. Are the Arab countries offering the Jews they expelled a right of return? What is your end solution, extermination?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  105. zero – Are you proposing giving Manhattan back to the Indians to be logically consistent?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  106. Aaron, just because your question was so odd,

    The Arapaho or the Iroquois or the Apache don’t have a right to kick you out of your home, and your family has only been here a couple of hundred years, but somehow Jewish settlers have more rights to Palestinian land then the native Americans do to yours.

    “Are the Arab countries offering the Jews they expelled a right of return?”

    The Jewish population of Israel exists and it’s not going away. I’ve never said otherwise. But the claims of moral superiority in the middle east are baseless. The moral superiority of Jews over Europeans on the other hand, after the last century, is a given.
    Europe hasn’t paid nearly enough.

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  107. “But the claims of moral superiority in the middle east are baseless.”

    zero – I agree, Islam has no right to claim it is moral to kill Jews and Christians unless they submit or convert.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  108. Seriously, the effort to equate annexing Cleveland and the creation of the nation of Israel is patently ludicrous.

    A) there was no nation there in recent memory, all of the ME constructs were creations of Europe (mainly Britain and France) after WWI, as a part of breaking up the tottering Ottoman Empire, which you might recall were on the losing side in WWI. During the war, the Jews were promised a place there where Israel had been, when the area was partitioned. When the time came, the Brits reneged on their part of the deal. As WWII approached, Jews who MIGHT have fled Nazi Germany and other parts were often prevented from doing so by the nations they might have fled to. Had Israel existed, there might have been six million or more people alive in 1946 than there were, by virtue of it being a haven for the Jews when no one else would take them in. THIS guilt was part of that which drove the creation of Israel — it had been promised to them when the other “nations” of the area were created, but hadn’t been given with dire results.

    b) it seems rather preposterous that Palestinians have spent the last 50 years demanding a nation of their own, were provided one willingly (albeit under international pressure) by Israel, yet now that they have it, they still call for the destruction of Israel… and would rather see Israel destroyed than to make peace with them and prosper themselves — because the area that got handed to them a decade or so ago was one of the more prosperous Islamic regions in the ME that didn’t have massed oil wealth to support it. When a person gets so obsessed with the destruction of someone they believe has wronged them that they would rather destroy themselves than survive and prosper, it’s a sign of a kind of serious mental sickness… Call it “Khan’s Disease”.

    What happens when an entire nation of people suffers from it?

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)


  109. the Palestinians pay the price for the crimes of Europe.

    Yaaaassss, the Ottoman Empire was a land of sainted virgins and lordly men.

    Your arguments are retarded.

    “Do the Jews have a right to the land”?

    Yes, because it was promised to them a mere hundred years ago as a part of the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, not even because of their longer “bond” to it from centuries and millenia ago.

    “Are the Palestinians genetically the same as the Jews?”

    Really? REALLY? Ask the Palestinians about that, huh? Ask them if they’re related to ‘subhuman ape-men‘ and ‘bloodsucking vampires‘… by all means, *please*.

    Heck, go ahead and get up on a soapbox in the middle of the Gaza strip, and declaim to all of them that they are brother and sister to the Jews, that they are closer by blood to them than you and I are.

    One word of warning: I’m not wading into the mob that is trying to tear you apart and beat you to death with stones to save your stupid, sorry, ignorant ass.

    The fact is that regardless of whether you agree that the Jews have a “right” to be there — THEY ARE THERE. And it’s been WAY more than a generation since they got there. The time for violence is over, and has been over for a long time.

    The former residents of Palestine had some claim to a land of their own. Israel gave them that, and it was a highly prosperous area, one of the most productive regions of the ME, which they themselves had put their own wealth into developing.

    That area — is it anything but a basket case now? No, it is not.

    It takes two to make peace. It only takes one to make war.

    The Israelis have done far more to make peace with “those who claimed a prior right to the land” than anyone has any business expecting. If the so-called “Palestinians” had taken the land given back to them, and elected to go forth hand in hand with the Jews, they’d be far and away the most prosperous, free nation in the ME along with Israel.

    The could even have rejected that, and gone their own way, treating those in Israel as “people I don’t like and do my best to ignore”. No, that’s not enough, either.

    There’s only ONE group of people responsible for the current issues in the ME — it’s not people wearing the Star of David. It’s not the people wearing the Sign of the Cross. It’s not even the people flying the flags of Europe.

    It’s adherents to the Crescent.

    The fact is that, if you look closely at hot spots AROUND THE WORLD, anywhere peoples of one nation and another nation, where peoples of one creed and another substantially different creed are clashing, one of them is consistently a member of Islam. Further, any of the few exceptions are internal disputes — the Tamil, Ireland, and so forth.

    Islam’s report card just came back from the teacher:

    “Doesn’t play well with others” it says here.

    Q.E.D. — Islam is the problem. Is there a solution that doesn’t involve nuclear glassification? It’s appearing more and more that the answer to that question is “no”.

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)


  110. “A function of free speech under our system of government is to INVITE
    DISPUTE
    . It may indeed best serve its high purposes when it induces a
    condition of unrest, creates dissatisfaction with conditions as they are,
    or even stirs people to anger. Speech is often provocative and challenging.
    It may strike at prejudices and preconceptions and have profound
    unsettling effects as it presses for acceptance of an idea.”


    – Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas -

    I recalled this one from many years ago. Found it with a search on Bloom County and the obvious keyword…
    Offensensitivity

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)

  111. Aaron, there was an actual image link above for the linked toon that’s apparently gotten suppressed. I tried to insert it using the code that was used for images in one of the recent sock puppet threads, but it appears to have been removed by your posting code, judging by looking at the end-result coding vs what the preview mode was showing….

    I think it’s worthy of allowing, hopefully, you will too.

    The pic/toon can be directly seen at this address if you want to re-insert it.

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)

  112. For us, Star Trek fans, it’s interesting how the Khan character came about.

    ian cormac (d380ce)

  113. _______________________________________

    The Palestianians are genetically almost identical to Jews.

    But in mentality they’re extreme versions of pity-party, self-destructive, chauvinistic, pro-martyr, poverty-pimp fanatics. They’re like a peculiar combination of the mindset of Klanners, Neo-Nazis, Jeremiah Wrights, Al Sharptons and Hugo Chavezs/Fidel Castros all rolled into one. A strange mix of ultra-liberal and ultra-conservative mentalities.

    Truly the worse of all worlds.

    Mark (411533)

  114. Al the language used to describe Islam has been used to describe Jews, with the same defensive logic: that the speaker is the victim.
    Anti-muslim bigotry is the new anti-semitism. As I said you drive out the jews and you get their angry cousins.

    sad

    A so-called “Jerusalem Declaration” issued by four other European rightists during their Israel visit also staunchly defended the country’s existence and its right to defend itself
    “against all aggression, especially Islamic terror.”

    Heinz-Christian Strache from Austria, German Freedom Party head Rene Stadtkewitz, Sweden Democrat MP Kent Ekeroth and Filip Dewinter, head of Belgium’s Vlaams Belang party, denied they were stoking Islamophobia with their statement.

    “The Arab-Israeli conflict illustrates the struggle between Western culture and radical Islam,” Dewinter said in Tel Aviv. Strache made a similar link to Europe, telling a conference in Ashkelon — a city that has been hit by rockets from the nearby Gaza Strip — that Israel faced “an Islamic terror threat that aims right for the heart of our society”.

    The Israeli newspaper Haaretz accused the rightists of “trading in their Jewish demon-enemy for the Muslim criminal-immigrant model” and visiting Israel only to get
    “Jewish absolution that will bring them closer to political power”

    Maybe you should look up the history of the name “German Freedom Party”

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  115. Zero

    > Anti-muslim bigotry is the new anti-semitism.

    Right, remember a few years ago when 19 jews flew planes into the WTC?

    Or remember a few years ago when millions of jews went crazy world wide because someone drew a cartoon involving God?

    Remember how Christins are banned from bringing the holy book of our faith into isreal?

    Remember how jews all over the world engaged in terrorism?

    Yeah, neither do I.

    I don’t believe all muslims are bad, but its not the case of a few giving the others a bad name. more like millions giving the others a bad name.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  116. Yeah, neither do I.

    Aaron, I don’t know if you switched to a new brand of coffee or something, but you’ve been on fire lately.

    Like you, I realize it’s not all muslims who are the problem, but there is a problem and it does involve Islam, and anyone calling that bigotry is just trying to shut down a debate they would lose.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  117. It particularly involves the Salafi brand of Sunni Islam, and some aspects of Shia philosophy, that’s why our ‘On the way to Forum,’ troll has to yell’
    ‘look squirrel’

    ian cormac (d380ce)

  118. “But you’re still asking me if Palestinians have more right…”

    Muslims don’t have a rightful claim to ANY land north of El Aqaba.

    It’s ours, not theirs, and eventually we’re going to take back ALL of it, not just Israel.

    The Muslims were strong enough to steal a goodly chunk of Judeo-Christian land at one time…but, they ain’t strong enough to keep what they stole.

    And, it doesn’t matter how much lefty renegades whine about it. Their Muslim “friends” are on their way out…like it or not.

    Dave Surls (803ab4)

  119. Aaron you’re arguing from revisionist history, and you’re arguing with Haaretz. You haven’t made a substantive argument yet.

    “Right, remember a few years ago when 19 jews flew planes into the WTC?”
    They were in fact 19 Saudis

    Ted Koppel in the WSJ : The View from Jerusalem
    “Israeli officials want a public commitment from Washington to protect the Saudi regime should it come under threat.”

    This might also interest you
    http://euobserver.com/24/32544

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  120. Sorry: 15 Saudis, 1 Egyptian, 1 Lebanese, 2 from the UAE.

    zero mostel (d80b5a)


  121. Right, remember a few years ago when 19 jews flew planes into the WTC?

    Indeed. The difference between antisemitism and antiislamism is that Jews haven’t really done anything to deserve the ire.

    Muslims have.

    My cousin is married to a “moderate muslim” — so yeah, I know they exist.

    The problem is, and he’ll be freely open about it — is that the Islamic fanatics scare HIM, too.

    The problem is, he and his ilk won’t stand up and fight the excessive zealots, he thinks he can leave it up to all of us. And doesn’t see why that’s a problem for anyone and everyone.

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)


  122. Aaron you’re arguing from revisionist history, and you’re arguing with Haaretz. You haven’t made a substantive argument yet.

    Unjustified claim, followed by a disconnected claim, followed by an apparently self-descriptive claim…?

    Interesting technique there. You just throw shit at a fan figuring some of it will stick to your opponent?

    I don’t think you’re supposed to do that from in front of the fan, you know…?

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)

  123. “Indeed. The difference between antisemitism and antiislamism is that Jews haven’t really done anything to deserve the ire.”

    Up to 1947 they hadn’t done much as a group in a long time. But when the Jews had their kingdoms they were as bloody as any other. And of course Joshua founded Israel by conquest.
    I hope you’re not going to defend Christianity in that regard. The Crusades, the Reconquista (the expulsion of Muslims and Jews from Spain in 1492) Colonialism. The Turks had their empire too. The People of the Book all ruled by blood and conquest. There’s no such thing as a religion of peace. Tibetan Buddhism has a pretty bloody history too.

    But the European empires were the bloodiest of all. And Israel prides itself as being an outpost of European civilization

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  124. Hamas hearts zero. I think Rev Hatey Wright has an open “I hate the Jews” position available.

    JD (29e1cd)


  125. Up to 1947 they hadn’t done much as a group in a long time.

    LOL, WtF?

    All of a sudden ancient history matters to you?

    I don’t give a crap about (nor consider it necessary to defend) the actions of people in centuries before when times were harsher and people lived nearer the edge.

    I’ve got no problem with the history of Islam as a conquering meme — it’s how it acts and deals with others NOW that matters.

    Stop trying to deflect. Islam is about violence.

    *NOW*

    *TODAY*

    As I said –

    Islam’s report card just came back from the teacher:
    “Doesn’t play well with others” it says here.

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)

  126. Ohnoes, the Crusades!

    Ron Brynaert (e7577d)

  127. Off, d@mn sock!

    ∅ (e7577d)

  128. Here you go, zero!

    ∅ (e7577d)

  129. “I’ve got no problem with the history of Islam as a conquering meme — it’s how it acts and deals with others NOW that matters.”

    And Israel prides itself as being an outpost of European civilization, which includes quite recent conquest.
    Explain the expulsion of three quarters of a million people from their land, as punishment for the crimes of Europe. You’ll say Arabs are all alike, I’ll say Palestinians are from Palestine, just as Parisians are from Paris. I’ve given data; as you say you’ve got bupkis, and a mouth.

    All I’ve done on this page is link to Jews, including Israelis who know the details and the history. No one here has made anything close to an argument. But Aaron goes “bwahahahahahahha”

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  130. And Achmadinejad found several Rabbis to attend his holocaust denial seminar who were Anit-Zionists, you ahistorical @$$hat!

    ∅ (e7577d)

  131. _____________________________________________

    There’s no such thing as a religion of peace.

    Just make sure you’re not the type of liberal who all too frequently meanders over to making statements similar to: “[Insert name of ultra-leftist Communist dicator or system] isn’t all the bad because their populism, their concern for the welfare of the common man, their free healthcare, were beautiful and generous!”

    Or: “Environmentalism, humanism or atheism isn’t a religion. It’s merely a wonderful way of feeling and thinking!”

    But the European empires were the bloodiest of all.

    Just make sure you’re not the type of liberal who all too frequently meanders over to making statements along the lines of: “The human sacrifice practiced by peoples a few centuries ago of what is now Mexico or various countries of South America must be placed in the context of their lacking food, modern dental care, and indoor plumbing.”

    Or: “The brutality and butchery done by people in various parts of Africa today must be attributed to the slave trade of the distant past, Western imperialism, and a lack of fiber in the diet.”

    Or: “The tribes of the Native American were bloody and cruel to one another because the arrival of the white European caused them great stress and also led to the demise of the buffalo.”

    Mark (411533)

  132. “And Achmadinejad found several Rabbis to attend his holocaust denial seminar who were Anit-Zionists”

    Neturei Karta.

    And they took the opportunity to excoriate him for his comments on the Holocaust. And there are still no Jews in Saudi Arabia, though we defend them. And there are still Jews in Iran.

    Likud likes Saudi Arabia for the same reason Farrakhan met the KKK and the Avraham Stern wanted an alliance with the Nazis. fascist separatists are all alike.

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  133. Netura Kartei,1947 was interestingly when the Ikwan Muslimiya,(Moslem Brotherhood) felt confident enough that they planned to take the whole enchilada, to that end, their Secret Apparatus execute a judge and subsequently Nukraishi Pasha, the PM, which eventually provokes a retaliation and ‘knock off’ Hassan Al Banna

    ian cormac (d380ce)

  134. Mark, the US destroyed Iraq. There’s no reason to look to Africa or South America for barbarism

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  135. We’ve given zero plenty of facts. He just prefers his own. And as is often said, you can’t argue someone out of a belief they weren’t argued into in the first place. Perhaps someday, he will study and learn.

    The creation of Israel was not punishment for the crimes of Europe. Germany’s (and other countries) reparations to the harmed jews was punishment for the crimes of Europe. The creation of Israel was required to have a Jewish state. Much evidence of this exists, amongst which is the Balfour Declaration of 1917, well before WWII, stating the Great Britain’s desire that there be a national home for the Jewish people.

    Of course Arabs are all alike when you are dealing with the level of calling people Arabs. When you are dealing with smaller levels, Parisians are not the same as those from Dijon although they are both French just like Arabs from Lebanon are different from Arabs from Jordan but they are both Arabs. Humans know these things. It’s a basic part of the language.

    luagha (46a605)

  136. ____________________________________

    the US destroyed Iraq.

    Zero, I have to “LOL” at that.

    If I didn’t know better, I’d swear your response actually was a parody of a “blame America First” leftist. If it’s not, are you the type of person who loves to think of him or herself as so humane and compassionate because he becomes indignant about George Bush and the US military inflicting even a bit of killing and hardship upon Iraq, while, tellingly enough, becoming far less indingnant — or not truly indignant at all — towards what Sadaam Hussein, otherwise known as the Butcher of Baghdad, did to his society?

    If that describes you to a “T,” that’s fine. There’s no problem in admitting that. Just don’t fall for the notion that your liberal biases therefore make you a humane, generous, compassionate human being. They don’t.

    Mark (411533)

  137. Seriously, Mark, can he be anymore ‘Cliche’, next thing he will echo Powell’s ‘Cracker Barrel’ maxim. The problem with that, is that Hussein
    headed a microfraction, of the Baath party, mostly members of his own class from Dulaymi province, who in turn were a minority in Shia
    majority Iraq, much like the Golden Square fascist movement that it resembles, it tried to purge Shia and moderate Sunni Kurds directly out of Iraqi life,

    ian cormac (d380ce)

  138. The reference to April Glaspie though has been largely undermined.

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  139. Dear Patterico!

    Please have a look at this youtube video and facebook survey regarding the motives behind the flotilla.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/FreedomFlotillaTwo

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Freedom-Flotilla-to-Gaza-Do-you-question-its-motives/226415280723767

    Feel free to pass this on to any of your friends, as well.
    G-d Bless


    Lenny Taylor

    Lenny Taylor (d17ed9)

  140. “I hope you’re not going to defend Christianity in that regard. The Crusades, the Reconquista…”

    LOL.

    That’s easy to defend. A bunch of Muslim imperialists and colonialists took our land, and now we’re in the process of taking it back.

    So easy to follow, even the densest leftard ought to be able to understand the concepts involved.

    Dave Surls (8dba37)

  141. Dave,
    You seem to be celebrating the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492. Do you celebrate their expulsion in 1945?

    As I said: the KKK and Farrakhan, the Lehi and the Nazis, you (and European Rightists) and Likud.

    Racists Heart Racists.

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  142. zero – Do you deny that Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  143. Terrorism disqualifies it’s practitioners from any legitimate claim for redress.

    ropelight (8ea8ac)

  144. “Terrorism disqualifies it’s practitioners from any legitimate claim for redress.”
    The first terrorists in the middle east were Jewish.

    And anyone on this site would gladly become a terrorist, or an “unlawful combatant” if this country -our territory- were under military occupation.

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  145. zero – Do you deny that Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  146. Was the Stern Gang a terrorist organization? They blew up a hotel. And remember they wanted to work with eh Nazis to encourage immigration to Palestine.
    Here’s a good article on Hezbollah. Here’s another.
    Hamas has committed acts of terror, and so has Israel. But it’s not exactly a chicken and and egg scenario. And Hezbollah and Hamas have both won elections, the latter followed by a coup attempt backed by the US.
    I’ll link once again to B’Tselem

    And Ted Koppel again:
    “Israeli officials want a public commitment from Washington to protect the Saudi regime should it come under threat”
    Israel and you, defending Saudi Scum.
    I’m done with this. Go back to Weinergate

    And remember, you would become a terrorist to defend your land and family.

    zero mostel (d80b5a)

  147. If this country was under military occupation I’d fight the enemy solders. I wouldn’t bomb a school bus or a kindergarten. Asshole!

    ropelight (8ea8ac)

  148. You seem to be celebrating the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492.

    WHAT? He didn’t say anything of the sort.

    You wouldn’t have to lie about someone’s position if you had a better argument. He explained the crusades with a general accuracy, actually. sure, you can cherry pick a fact set on either side, but his is not dishonest or anything.

    Nothing he said shows antisemitism, and there’s been more than a hint of it in your bizarre ranting.

    Dustin (b7410e)

  149. “Dave, You seem to be celebrating the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492…[followed by similar drivel]”

    Like all lefties, you lie every time your fingers hit the keyboard.

    What I’m “celebrating” is the continual, and ongoing process of driving Muslim imperialists and colonialists off lands that rightfully belong to Jews and Christians.

    Spain and Israel being two examples.

    And, of course, it’s YOUR side who dreams of the destruction of Israel, and the continuance of Arab Muslim imperialism and colonialism via the mechanism of terrorism (which will perforce mean the expulsion or extermination of the Jewish population…same as has happened in every other Arab Muslim nation).

    Lastly, the only one bringing up any kind of racial theory here is…you (hardly surprising considering the past behavior of lefties). For everyone else, it’s about ideology, for you and your ilk, it’s often about “blood” or DNA…same as with your Nazi or Jim Crow Democrat ideological cohorts.

    So, Lefty, If you’re going to tell lies, at least try and come up with some convincing ones.

    Dave Surls (a710d6)

  150. If you can imagine a nearly eight hundred year
    occupation, which was what the Moors undertook, the first three centuries, were better than what
    Theodoric the Visigoth could offer, but then Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar, among others said no thanks,

    ian cormac (d380ce)

  151. “the first terrorists in the middle east were Jewish,” bwah hah hah.

    Whether you mean the modern day or the biblical era, Jewish defense groups always mobilized as a reaction to assault. Check your dates. Even the worst of the worst of Israeli ‘terror groups’ had nothing on the Arabs of their time.

    luagha (46a605)


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