Patterico's Pontifications

5/5/2011

Release the Bin Laden Photos!

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:43 am



Release the photos!

There are good arguments on both sides. Allahpundit here makes the case for not releasing the photos. By contrast, Jack Shafer says release them.

I respect Allahpundit’s position but agree with Shafer that the photos should be released.

Let’s take one of Allahpundit’s arguments: that there will always been conspiracy theorists:

I can think of four arguments for releasing the photos. One: It’ll prove that he’s dead. Except, of course, that it won’t. Conspiracy cranks will screech about the pic being doctored or the victim being an impostor (“those aren’t his eyebrows!”) within five minutes of it being posted. There’s no such thing as “proof” anymore; the Internet age is proof-proof. If anything, the more evidence you provide, the more pretexts you create for kooks to pose moronic challenges to it. If the White House wants to reassure people that the photos exist, they can show them to Republican leaders, to members of the press, and maybe to 9/11 families for their satisfaction. (Scott Brown apparently has already seen them.)

This is an example of a fallacious argument I will call the “It would happen anyway” fallacy. Under this argument, taking an action to prevent or minimize a harm is pointless if the harm will happen anyway after the action is taken. Why lock up criminals when crime will always continue? Why should Obama release his birth certificate if there will still be Birther conspiracy theories after its release? Why bother making your argument in the clearest possible fashion if you know people will try to twist your words anyway? Why bother streamlining death penalty appeals in one respect when you know the entire process will still take a long time?

These sorts of arguments are defeatist and illogical. The argument assumes that partially accomplishing a goal is pointless unless the goal is fully accomplished. What about the fact that the goal will be partially accomplished?

It’s important to prove bin Laden was really killed, and obviously the pictures are part of that proof. Allahpundit acknowledges this fact when he agrees that the photos should be shown to congressional leaders or 9/11 victims’ families. Why is that? Because once they have seen the photos, that will provide them with a greater sense of certainty. Well, the same is true of the rest of the world. And calibrating the presentation of your proof based on the likely reaction of a bunch of cranks is not my idea of a sensible policy.

Providing proof becomes more important every day the White House screws up the story further. Osama used his wife as a human shield; no wait, he didn’t. He was armed; no wait, he wasn’t. There was helmet cam video; no wait, there wasn’t. The administration has so badly screwed up the presentation of the basic facts that even sensible people are starting to have doubts about the credibility of the narrative. Releasing the photos will help provide proof, to accomplishing the goal of persuading the persuadable.

Let me use a “it will happen anyway” argument in favor of releasing the pictures. We are told that releasing the photos will inflame the Muslim world against us. Well, guess what? That will happen anyway. So why bother?

See? If you’re in favor of releasing the photos, that argument probably sounds pretty good. When you already agree with the person making the “it will happen anyway” argument (or any other fallacious argument), the fallacy is harder to spot.

In truth, we who argue in favor of releasing the photos believe in their release for other reasons, and use the “it will happen anyway” argument as cover. If we really think about it, we need to confront the fact that releasing the photos may indeed serve as an icon for radical Islam. The reason we don’t care isn’t because “it will happen anyway.” It’s because we have another, better argument for why withholding the pictures will inflame radical Muslims even more.

The reason we believe this is simple: we don’t see radical Islamists as appeasable. We have walked the road of trying to gain their friendship by gestures of appeasement before. Ask the Israelis how that works out. Every time they make a major concession to the radical Islamists, it brings Israel closer to peace, right? Wrong. It emboldens the radicals.

Simply put: you don’t back down with radical Islamists. They see the weakness and try to exploit it.

As for the sensitivities of the non-radical Muslim world, they disowned this cretin bin Laden long ago. If they didn’t, they’re radical by definition. So let’s not worry about their sensitivities either.

Forget “Muslim sensitivities.” We need to prove that we did what we did.

Let me back up a second and explain my perspective. As a prosecutor, proving assertions is my habit. If I say something, it’s second nature to want to provide the evidence. There are limits to this principle, as there are to any principle — but generally, if you make the assertion and you’re holding the proof in your hand, but you won’t release the proof . . . it makes me suspicious about what you might be hiding.

Releasing the photos won’t convince the whole world. But it is part of the proof, and will go a long way towards convincing those who are capable of being convinced.

Or, we can just let Obama control what facts we should know and what facts we shouldn’t, because by gum, he knows best.

Somehow, that doesn’t sound like too great an idea to me.

85 Responses to “Release the Bin Laden Photos!”

  1. Here’s the weird thing look through this Yahoo new photo slideshow:

    Medias reaction to Bin Laden’s Death

    See that?

    In a lot of Arabic papers the fake photos were already circulated-so supposedly we’ve already paid the ‘cost” of having displayed Bin Laden’s death photo.

    So the downside has already been played out.

    Secondly if they are worried about the appearance or morbidity of the death photos they could take a still from any of the live video that they have.

    A President that asks the US military to invade the sovereignty of a nuclear power should do his duty and do his upmost to justify the actions that he commands our military to make.

    madawaskan (e26bf2)

  2. If you release the photos Arabic papers will just circulate them?

    “It will happen anyway!” (TM)

    It’s just that the photos will be fake.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  3. Great stuff, Patterico.

    MayBee (081489)

  4. Crap that first link I left doesn’t get the slideshow arrows.

    Try this link:

    Media Reaction to Bin Laden’s Death

    You can see the fake dead photos being used on the front of Arabic papers in about slides #6,10 and 11 and so forth.

    madawaskan (e26bf2)

  5. Patrick in tangentially related news, it turns out that alot of people convinced by the birth certificate.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/behind-the-numbers/post/number-of-birthers-plummets/2011/05/04/AF3GAZxF_blog.html

    which kind of bolsters your point. some will surely never be convinced, or had arguments that were more about alleged kenyan citizenship by his father or something like that that are not addressed by this. but most people are susceptible to proof.

    Aaron Worthing (b1db52)

  6. I also really hate the argument against seeing the proof “Well, do you not believe Obama? Do you think there is a conspiracy?”

    Yes, I believe him and no I don’t think there is a conspiracy, but having to prove you accept the truth of something has never been the standard for asking for evidence of it, has it?

    MayBee (081489)

  7. maybee

    i follow the reagan mantra of “trust but verify.”

    Aaron Worthing (b1db52)

  8. I think it has nuffin to do with proof really I think the important thing is that we don’t want the precedent of having to take America’s douchebag coward whore president’s word for important crap like this.

    The decision to release the photos is above Daddy Soros’s ghetto trash buttmunch’s pay grade.

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  9. bumble needs to spend more quality time with his fascist hoochie mama terrorizing fat kids and less time prancing around pretending to give a crap about the national security of the country whose treasury he has unmercifully raped and left for dead I think

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  10. Has the White House settled on one version of the events yet?

    JD (29e1cd)

  11. I just see it this way: suppose I randomly ran over Osama Bin Laden in my pickup last week on the way to the Scottish Restaurant. Jackpot!

    If I had gone up to Obama’s administration, claiming this $25 million reward, what kind of proof would satisfy them?

    Supposing I have 80 Navy SEALs riding with me, aware I was claiming they saw the whole thing, many would be convinced merely if they didn’t speak up, exposing me as a fraud. That’s actually most of how I’m convinced Obama is telling the truth.

    But if the administration claimed the body, and I explained I had already given him a burial in the Gulf Of Mexico since he was a Muslim, and they asked for photos, and I claimed I couldn’t show it to them because it had my pickup’s out of date registration sticker on it, and I have a 5th amendment right to not self incriminate, they might just claim I have failed to prove anything.

    In fact, they might say that whatever reason I have to hide the photo cannot possibly equal the reasons for showing it.

    —-

    I’m not sure what their reasons are for not doing so, but I think they should have had this question answered, and their story straight, before the strangely late and poorly written speech (by which I mean, it doesn’t seem like they were polishing the speech during the delay).

    They didn’t have these issues squared away, and that’s a terrible shame, considering that many think the SEALs just outright executed someone after capture, or that Osama died years ago and we’re lying about it. The war on terror is largely psychological, and Obama and the US Military have EARNED a win that these mistakes are undermining.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  12. Holy crap I don’t know why when you link the damn thing the slideshow arrows disappear.

    Let me try linking to the slides separately.

    Here is the fake photo in Riyadh:

    Riyadh Fake

    Bulgaria-

    Fake Bin Laden Photo Front Page

    Another Riyadh paper-

    Link

    Another in Islamabad Pakistan-

    Fake in Pakistan

    madawaskan (e26bf2)

  13. 9/11 happened to all of us, not just the families of those who died. Release the photos Mr. President.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  14. What was Barcky’s position on the release of the Abu Ghraib photos? That was front page NY Times for over 30 consecutive days. Maybe if OBL was found in a dress wearing a dog collar, they would release them.

    Barcky also was the one that demanded that the photos of flag draped coffins of service men and women be released.

    Most transparent administration EVAH!

    JD (306f5d)

  15. President Obama has stumbled badly on this one. Did he not, just last week, release a personal document to prove that he was born in the US? And now he claims furnishing the evidence of the Osama kill won’t convince anybody anyway? His capacity for self-contradiction amazes me.

    I was appalled when I heard they’d discarded the body at sea. Though I agree with their rationale for burial at sea rather than on land, they did it much too quickly. Muslim 24-hour burial custom be damned, that body was their sole evidence to the world that they really did kill bin Laden. DNA? Don’t make me laugh. Did DNA convince the OJ jurors? I remember thinking, “OK, dumping the evidence was a bad mistake, but they can still prove what they did with those photos.” And now they’re refusing to release them?

    Obama is a Harvard-trained lawyer. Does he not understand what “Habeas Corpus” means?!

    Ellie in T.O. (3588a4)

  16. Good point, Mad.

    Perhaps we should make fake photos of the death illegal, too.

    MayBee (081489)

  17. You know what the whole problem is?

    It’s that they are having trouble with just a “few” Executive Orders.

    Now it’s going to get worse.

    Now they say they have 25 minutes that are missing.

    Guess what is already being said about that?

    Well it goes something like the Navy SEALs wanted to pop Bin Laden-assassinate him-and so they turned their video off and started-you know-

    “freelancing”.

    And well you could look at it another way- the Administration doesn’t want to own something or take responsibility so the feed conveniently cut out.

    Obama better own this damn thing.

    Because I see good people making certain conclusions about the video drop.

    Imagine what the likes of Greenwald is going to do with that.

    It gives him the room to attack just the military and distances the President from his crap shots.

    Just peachy.

    And that crappy Left is going to go right there-our own and the International Law Euro weenies.

    madawaskan (e26bf2)

  18. Maybee

    I don’t get what the hell is going on but ever since the military gave the football so to speak to the communication guys at the White House-it’s been a fumble.

    madawaskan (e26bf2)

  19. Sen. Scott Brown has acknowledged the photos he saw were fakes. He’s retracted his earlier statement.

    ropelight (ecf8c1)

  20. Not releasing the photos was a gutless and stupid decision based on the phony pretext that somehow the world is too ‘sensitive’ for the existence of documentation of death of the world’s worst terrorist. 2 days to make a bad decision on what should have been a 10-second “of course” no-brainer decision is a reminder of how truly awful our President is.

    The world could use the proof to silence the conspiracy cranks in the Arab world (and the claims are out there; he’s not dead, or he was killed years ago and this is just a PR show, etc) and needs to send a message – Sic Semper Tyrannis. The message sent instead is: We are indecisive wimps and we insist you take our word for it.

    Oh, and btw, lets tell you more about our secret intel methods and change our story 3 times about how it went down in the meantime…

    “It will happen anyway!” (TM)

    Right. Photos WILL be released. We now have pics of Bin Laden’s sons out there. AQ WILL be outraged. so quit trying to cater to the ‘sensitivities’ or fear of blowback from Bin Laden sympathizers.

    Of course, there IS an end zone dance by the Obama administration, they dont care about pics of OBL, they just want the mindless pap about how ‘great’ Obama was to say “yes” when the underlings had the mission lined up … THAT’S WHAT THE VIEW, MSNBC AND 60 MINUTES IS FOR.

    But the very end-zone dance and their hapless clueless decisions this week is proof of Obama’s disconnectedness. I am grateful this mission wasnt a cock-up like Desert One, I am glad OBL sleeps with fishes, but frankly, the amateur hour of the White House since it happened only underscores one thing:
    The CIA, DOD and Navy Seals executed this mission extremely well. The White House were spectators.

    Barack's Clown Shoes (9e3371)

  21. Aaron’s link proves exactly what I say here. Turns out that the existence of people who cannot be convinced does not negate the existence of people who can be.

    Is carlitos here? Can I get an amen?

    Patterico (d792fa)

  22. The left love Wall St Execs when they give money to them.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  23. ______________________________________________

    I support releasing the photos if only as a countermeasure to the socio-political lunacy that apparently is infecting — or has infected — no less than segments of our government involving the military.

    I read the following and ponder: Is the Pentagon like a branch office of the ACLU, Acorn or the NAACP—where common sense is as rare as a warm day in Antarctica?!

    Time.com, November 2009:

    “We [students in Pentagon’s medical school] asked him pointedly, ‘Nidal [Hasan], do you consider Shari’a law to transcend the Constitution of the United States?’ And he said, ‘Yes,’ ” a classmate told TIME on Monday. “We asked him if homicidal bombers were rewarded for their acts with 72 virgins in heaven and he responded, ‘I’ve done the research — yes.’ Those are comments he made in front of the class.”

    But such statements apparently didn’t trigger an inquiry. “I was astounded and went to multiple faculty and asked why he was even in the Army,” the officer said. “Political correctness squelched any opportunity to confront him.”

    Several classmates suggested that Hasan seemed ill-suited for the Master’s in Public Health Program at the Pentagon’s medical school, where he was enrolled from 2007 to 2008. Unlike most of the 50 people enrolled, Hasan went straight into the program from his residency at Walter Reed, the Army’s flagship hospital. That meant he had spent nearly a decade — medical school, residency and the fellowship — largely as a student before heading to the Texas Army post in July. “The American taxpayer gave this guy advanced degrees, and the bastard murdered 13 people,” says the first classmate.

    And then there were concerns raised by the political beliefs that Hasan espoused. “He wore his rigid Islam ideology on his sleeve and weaved it throughout his coursework,” says the third classmate. “He would be standing there in uniform pledging allegiance to the Koran.”

    The third classmate says he witnessed at least three oral presentations by Hasan over the course of a year that focused on the morality of Muslims, war and justification for suicide bombers. “People were giving presentations on air quality or water quality, but he’d be full of psychobabble about how the persecution of Muslims justifies suicide bombers,” the officer says. After a while, Hasan’s classmates “would just roll our eyes saying, ‘Here we go again.’ ”

    The first classmate also complains about Hasan leaving lessons to pray: “He’d disrupt class by sitting in front and leaving for prayer. When one of us asked him to please sit in the back of the class so it wouldn’t disrupt the rest of us when he left, he just looked at him with scorn.”

    ^ And these trends predate the arrival to the White House of the guy who originally enlisted Jeremiah Wright to be a close spiritual adviser. IOW, imagine how much worse the idiocy of political correctness run amok (nurtured by people of the left) must be today throughout the federal government.

    Mark (3e3a7c)

  24. “What was Barcky’s position on the release of the Abu Ghraib photos? ”

    FOR them. As a candidate, he pledged to go about releasing and making public the humiliation of prisoners who in no way deserved that humiliation and were further humiliated. FOR releasing documents that inflamed and made worse our efforts in Iraq and which surely caused harm to US soldiers.

    Harming the US and further humiliating prisoners was the ‘right thing’ to do.

    Except when it wasnt, since he broke that promise in the first 100 days.

    Sharing a pic of dead OBL that is likely no more bloody that the pic of dead OBL son already published via Pakistan, now that’s not the ‘right thing’?!?

    A Barack Clown Show Moment.

    “I was appalled when I heard they’d discarded the body at sea”

    I am equally appalled by the stupidity and craven obedience to all the wrong kinds of sensitivity.

    Stupidity Over Transparency.

    OK, so now I have one more reason to want Obama defeated: So we can get the OBL pics released on Jan 21, 2013.

    Barack's Clown Shoes (9e3371)

  25. If everything had gone smooth as silk post Sunday night in terms of the WH laying out a cogent, plausible, and consistent story with unimpeachable time line, then the OBL death pic would probably have been superfluous and releasing it would not be necessary. But the WH drones and their communications amateurs (in trying to make this a re-election event) have bollixed up things so badly– and put forth so many idiotic inconsistencies– that now they do need to release the photo.

    elissa (70e463)

  26. “Is carlitos here? Can I get an amen?”

    Patterico – 10 yard penalty for spiking the football.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  27. A very big unverified story just now bobbing up from the depths indicates that Obama didn’t give the go signal, a “temporary coup” involving Panetta, Clinton, Gates, Petraeus, Daley, and the JCOS, put the plan into motion without Obama’s authorization, he was called from the golf course and presented with a fait accompli, one he couldn’t reveal. Since the handwriting was already on the wall, Obama had no option but to get on-board.

    Valerie Jarrett was the central figure attempting to stop the operation.

    The reason so many contradictory versions of events are coming out is because various factions, some aggressively angry, and some looking for cover, are jocking for position.

    ropelight (ecf8c1)

  28. Actually, my memory is that Obama initially claimed he would not oppose the ACLU’s fight for release of more Abu Ghraib photos, expressing a commitment to transparency, but he flip flopped when the moment arrived because he was afraid of inflaming Muslims into violence.

    I was going to post a link, but it pissed me off when the ACLU lawyer said he was trying to prove what happened under Bush’s watch. The recent kill team scandal is blamed on the military instead of Obama, for some reason.

    I’m so sick and tired of politics dominating the left’s approach to national security. And yes, in this case, it’s the left, not the right.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  29. ==So we can get the OBL pics released on Jan 21, 2013.==

    In a similar vein, last night I was thinking that if the picture is not released now, at upcoming presidential debates and interviews the candidates are going to be asked what their position is on this, and whether, if they are elected, they will release the OBL photo. That will make Barry pissy because he can’t just be left alone to eat his waffle.

    elissa (70e463)

  30. Here is the bottom line: Muslims who did not support ObL (mostly those in the western nations) will be happy he is dead; those who supported him (like the Muslim Brotherhood) will be angry we killed him. So what has changed. Are we talking about the degree of anger radical Muslims have toward the U.S.? I mean, come on, how much more angry can you be than to try to kill thousands of Americans?

    We did not go out to kill ObL to appease the Muslim world. We set out to kill him because he harmed Americans, and it is Americans Obama should be concerned about appeasing, unless he is going to find a way for citizens of Muslim nations to vote for him in November, 2012. Americans, and especially the 9-11 families, need some small form of closure. Seeing the dead body of ObL would grant them that.

    Personally, I have really sickened of the excuse “if we do this, we will outrage the Muslim world” and “if we do that, we will insult the Muslim world” when frankly, I was very outraged, and insulted, on 9-11-2001 and really haven’t gotten over it. But hey, I’m an American and obviously my feelings with this POTUS don’t count.

    Stop telling me that I am not adult enough to handle pictures of a dead ObL with half his head blown off. Stop making those decisions for me. I want to see them. My tax money helped pay for the mission. Let me see the results of a job well done by our SEALs.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  31. I can personally guarantee that if we release these photos, the people who loved Osama Bin Laden will want to do harm to Americans.

    Also, if you feed Michael Moore another cheeseburger, he will be fat.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  32. Dustin, what will change if we release the photos? Absolutely nothing. We will still be hated, the Muslims will still want to kill us, they will still continue to try to acheive that goal. How is that any different than what they are doing now?

    We liberated the people of Kuwait who are Muslim. Are we now loved more than we were before we liberated them? We went to war to protect Muslims in Kosovo. Did that gain us any cred? We were the first to respond when the killer tsunami hit Indonesia. What did that gain us except pictures of Indonesians in t-shirts with a picture of ObL on them?

    Kindness, generosity and aid never gained us one damn thing in the Muslim world. They have found a scape goat for their own miserable existance (us) and that will not change by being sensitive to their feelings and not releasing the photos. It is time for us to man-up and stop pandering to a people who see our pandering as weakness.

    Do you remember being told how the Japanese viewed the surrendered Americans on Bataan as cowards because they surrendered? Muslims have the same viewpoint. It is the “strong horse, weak horse” philosophy. They do NOT respect that which they view as weak. And not showing the photos, we look weak.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  33. Dustin, what will change if we release the photos? Absolutely nothing.

    Yeah, I was joking.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  34. They’ll be releasing the photos in time for the
    2012 general election.

    Jack (f9fe53)

  35. Oh just ….

    Leave it to the NYT whatevers.

    You should have seen Shep Smith yesterday commiserating for the poor “occupants” of the “household”.

    He’s a damn idiot.

    madawaskan (e26bf2)

  36. President Obama says he won’t release the photos because “that’s not who we are.” All these years I thought America stood for freedom, truth, and courage but now it seems those values have been trumped by other concerns.

    DRJ (fdd243)

  37. DRJ – He won’t spike the football, but he will do q blatantly political victory lap at Ground Zero.

    JD (fa4f4a)

  38. DRJ and JD–

    It would probably help matters if he, himself, actually had a clue “who we are”. Through so many of his statements and actions he clearly demonstrates that he does not in the slightest get who we are.

    elissa (70e463)

  39. Obama is being so sensitive to the Muslim world by not showing photos of a dead Osama at the hands of America’s finest but………….

    he invites 50 members of the 9-11 families to join him today during his Victory Lap. Were those family members called by the White House staff? No, they were sent emails that read:

    “Dear 9-11 Family Member”

    OK, you contact 50 families that lost so much on 9-11-2001 and you cannot bother to send them individual emails but just hit “send all” to them without mentioning their names? How insensitive is that?

    One family that got the “generic” email lost two sons that day and Obama’s WH staff can’t even address their email by name?

    The lunatics are running the asylum.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  40. Elissa – sure he does. We are bitter clingers.

    JD (fa4f4a)

  41. ____________________________________

    “Dear 9-11 Family Member”

    That’s sort of in keeping with the current White House handing out inappropriate gifts to foreign dignitaries (eg, the gift to the British prime minister and royal family) or its head (ie, the president) bowing, like a servant, before the king of Saudi Arabia and the Emperor of Japan.

    I guess we should be relieved the folks handling the email in question didn’t think it AOK to include the line “You may have already won….!!!”

    Mark (411533)

  42. when is the ground zero party gonna be anyway – is it today?

    nobody tells me anything

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  43. “that’s not who we are.”

    DRJ – Who is that “we” Obama is referring to?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  44. Has anybody polled releasing the photos?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  45. everyone I’ve asked says for us to release them

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  46. Don’t release them. If they are fakes, then Bin Laden will surely re-appear and prove them to be false. His silence is all the proof that is necessary.

    Phil (1cafd3)

  47. Bottom line: they’re OUR photos. We paid for them, we bled for them. Obama has no right to hide them away or ‘protect’ us from them. If there was a true national security reason not to show them to the world, then they should never have told anyone they exist. Period. Why the heck did they take all the risk to acquire evidence of his death, only to suppress that evidence? Good grief, that’s stupid. The photos should be made public NOW and those who don’t want to look don’t have to. If you think it’s going to inspire Muslim outrage, you’re probably right. What doesn’t?? Open the casket, fools!! You’re going to be forced to sooner or later.

    starboardhelm (e93080)

  48. I don’t care about the picture, I believe OBL is dead – if you care, I hope you get it the way you want.

    The tender consideration for Muslims reminds me of the Koran-burning thing, the fearful racist attitude that Muslims are not able to control themselves or demonstrate maturity in the face of any minute challenge.

    We, of course, don’t count in any event, but between not wanting to hurt Muslim feelings and/or being scared they’ll go all explodey, it’s a lot of responsibility for Ø to handle…

    Course I don’t care if their feelings are hurt, we all have to grow up sometime, and if they go ballistic, oh well, they would have over something anyway.

    jodetoad (0e079d)

  49. Enough already!! Here are the dead fishfood (a.k.a, osama bin laden) pictures. Now can we move on?!

    The Emperor (f9092c)

  50. Appeasement? We’re not talking about giving away the Sudetenland. We’re talking about refraining from a gesture that provides a dubious benefit, but could cost more American lives. Pretty rational, if you ask me, even if it fails to satisfy certain emotions.

    angeleno (ec0b60)

  51. angeleno, prove it. Prove that the photos will inflame people who are not currently already inflamed. I’m getting sick of this repetition of a claim that “X” will inflame people who have not shown any inclination to not be inflamed already. And who’ve shown no sensitivity to my feelings at all.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  52. How many American corpses will you consider proof?

    angeleno (ec0b60)

  53. So, killing him is not bad, but pictures of the dead him are horrible?

    JD (318f81)

  54. angeleno, you got any? And how do you separate them out from the dead American’s we have had without any provocations of the kind you decry? Like Daniel Pearl?

    This line is just a bunch of horse manure.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  55. Another item for the list of reasons why releasing the picture is unnecessary.

    angeleno (ec0b60)

  56. “We’re talking about refraining from a gesture that provides a dubious benefit, but could cost more American lives.”

    angeleno – Sheer speculation. There are opinions on both sides of the issue. The ones in favor of disclosure at least have something apart from speculation behind them. We heard years of cries that Gitmo was a terrorist recruiting tool which was absolute BS from your ilk. This is the same thing.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  57. You want to gamble with American lives. That’s your “ilk.”

    angeleno (ec0b60)

  58. You want to gamble with American lives.

    That is beneath you, or I thought it was.

    JD (b98cae)

  59. Too harsh for you, JD? So be it.

    angeleno (ec0b60)

  60. Not too harsh, too cravenly douchey and dishonest. You have not made the case that even one person would become motivated to kill Americans that was not already motivated to do so. You have not even attempted to make a case for why a picture of a dead terrorist would inspire violence against Americans, any more than invading another country and assassinating a terrorist would.

    JD (85b089)

  61. JD, he has moral authority and just ‘knows’ things. He doesn’t have to reduce himself to actually proving anything he claims.

    Remember, his first reaction to the OBL kill was to come here and complain we were too partisan (before we started criticizing a Republican).

    Angeleno is simply not willing to consider the possibility of a legitimate argument contrary to his assumptions.

    Furthermore, history has proven many times the excellent effect of showing a crushed bad guy, such as Mussolini’s upside down hanging.

    We can thoughtfully select a photo and release it, perhaps in black and white to reduce to gore factor a bit, with that goal in mind. Perhaps we could also release photos of a few of the children he murdered.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  62. Why be thoughtful, Dustin? Why “reduce the gore factor a bit?” Are you betraying a concern that maybe Mike Rogers is on to something?

    Thanks for calling me “douchey,” JD. Adolescent rhetoric is clearly your specialty and you’re undeniably good at it. You are a bit on the repetitive side, however. You might watch that.

    angeleno (ec0b60)

  63. It’s always amusing how the guys who come here to hit below the belt and make grandiose assumptions of the ugliest sort never accept reasonable criticism, or even a request they back up their claims.

    Obviously, they are motivated by disrespect for others.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  64. “You want to gamble with American lives.”

    angeleno – That’s all you’ve got? No logic, facts, reason? Just sheer emotion and speculation?

    Hey, why shouldn’t everybody agree with you, you’re so freaking convincing!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  65. I’ve had a lot of heated disagreements with JD, and can even say he’s ticked me off once in a while, which I realize he could also say about me.

    But the idea this isn’t a decent human being is absurd. “Gambling with American life” is not a fair thing to say about someone just because you’re struggling in the argument. That kind of accusation requires great evidence.

    The idea that getting this photo out there is actually showing a lack of patriotism or empathy for fellow citizens is just nasty.

    I don’t feel the need to stick up for JD very often because he does stick up for himself, but that’s just a low blow from someone who goes out of his way to pose as fair and moderate when he’s parroting hack partisan bullcrap relentlessly.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  66. Cough it up, Dustin. Why take any precautions with the photo? Let’s just show it in all its gory glory. Any worry to the contrary is just arrogant speculation.

    Be bold! JD and daleyrocks have your back!

    angeleno (ec0b60)

  67. By the way, I love these references to Mussolini and Clara Petacci at the Piazzale Loreto. The perpetrators, of course, were Communist partisans. Nothing quite like the cognitive dissonance that comes from hearing the far right hold this up as a behavioral model…

    angeleno (ec0b60)

  68. Oh, and “parroting hack partisan bullcrap relentlessly” — you mean, like, defending Mike Rogers?

    angeleno (ec0b60)

  69. Cough it up, Dustin. Why take any precautions with the photo? Let’s just show it in all its gory glory. Any worry to the contrary is just arrogant speculation.

    Sarcasm is not an argument. I think Obama’s administration is competent enough to prove Osama Bin Laden is dead in the most reasonable manner. Picking a photo, and presenting that with sobriety, is probably the best way to convince as many people as possible. I realize you already know this and have simply ignored the argument, resorting to insults. 90% of your comments are simply insults against those you disagree with, presented in the veneer of civility (by claiming others are somehow too uncivil).

    In other words, you are a fraud. No biggie. Obama has a lot of dumb shills.

    Be bold! JD and daleyrocks have your back!

    Actually, no they do not. They will jump on my case as soon as they disagree with me. We just agree on this issue. You were wrong to accuse us of standing on party. Most of the regulars here stand on various principles and that’s about it. So, at most, they have some principle’s back, and usually I share those principles.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  70. The perpetrators, of course, were Communist partisans. Nothing quite like the cognitive dissonance

    Other facts about communists:

    They ate food and drank water. They usually loved their children. They believed in peace through military deterrence. They realize education is key to a society’s future.

    In other words, this idea that conservatives must not do something if commies did it is, again, just dumbass level partisan bullcrap. Mussolini’s death photo defines Mussolini. It was extremely effective propaganda. Angeleno’s rebuttal to my argument is to ignore it.

    As usual. Angeleno can’t hold his own on the basis of logic.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  71. “Why take any precautions with the photo? Let’s just show it in all its gory glory. Any worry to the contrary is just arrogant speculation.”

    angeleno – So now you agree we should show the photos and the only question is the precautions? Good. Abandon your reflexive partisan stands, since members of Obama’s administration such as Panetta and Gates have gone on record saying we should show the photos. Admitting this is not a purely partisan issue is a good first step to facing your defects.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  72. angeleno – Those members of Obama’s administration who support releasing the photos want to do it just because they want to gamble with American lives, right dipsh*t?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  73. Come on guys, we don’t need to see the photo. Nor should we see the Muhammad cartoons, or disrespect the holy Koran, or look upon the faces of Islamic women. All this and much more is forbidden to the eyes of the unclean.

    Infidels, know your lowly place least even that be denied you, and remember well the fate of Theo Van Gogh. Bow ye down in supplication and tremble in fear least ye offend the holy warriors of Allah, the Merciful.

    ropelight (a82fa2)

  74. It appears that angeleno is going to settle for crass smears instead of backing up his ASSertions. It should be easy. You aCcused us of being willing to gamble American lives, so surely you can show that these pictures are more likely to make a terrorist want to kill Americans than they did prior to the picture, or more than the assassination of the guy in the picture, etc … You won’t, because you can’t. It is absurd on its face.

    JD (306f5d)

  75. Why is Obama putting a man like Leon Panetta in charge of the defense department if his position on this picture proves he is willing to gamble with American lives?

    Don’t vote for Obama: Angeleno explains how his administration has many people in it who just don’t care about our safety.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  76. It was President Obama who gambled American lives in the Pakistan raid. A few smart bombs could have done the job on bin Laden without ever putting our troops at risk on the ground.

    The helicopter crash could easily have resulted in the loss of a dozen or more good men. And, for what, a death we can’t prove and a photo we can’t see?

    ropelight (a82fa2)

  77. JD – Racist deather.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  78. That’s a good point, Ropelight. Of course, risking American lives is occasionally something that must be done in a war. It’s not like Obama sent these SEALs on a whim, or even in a cavalier manner.

    It seems really stupid to do this to confirm we got a man, and then dispose of his body, skip the autopsy, tell contradictory accounts of the takedown, and refuse to show people the real proof, the video and photos, that we repeatedly note we have.

    What’s sad is that they almost certainly aren’t actually covering up a hoax. They just act like they are.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  79. Dustin, the only valid reason to send in an assault force is to capture bin Ladin. Going there on the ground to kill him is foolishly gambling American lives, and unnecessarily antagonizing our Pakistani allies.

    But your other point interests me. What if it was a hoax? What if the man we thought was bin Laden actually was his body double? It wouldn’t be the first time a marked man used a look-alike to mislead pursuers.

    Consider the propaganda victory of pulling off a well orchestrated plot setting us up for a ‘Second Coming’ on the anniversary of 9/11?

    Now, wouldn’t that look just spiffy on the front page of the New York Times. Obama and the USA would look like the Keystone Cops. It would go down in history right along side Harry Truman holding up a headline reading “Dewey Wins!”

    ropelight (a82fa2)

  80. But your other point interests me. What if it was a hoax? What if the man we thought was bin Laden actually was his body double?

    uh ummmmm

    I got no good response to that.

    And even our DNA testing can only narrow it down to one of the dozens of siblings of Osama’s half sister.

    Yes, for the most part, this is keystone cops level competence. The SEALs, I am sure, were magnificent. It is because of their honor that I believe this at least is not a deliberate hoax.

    Dustin, the only valid reason to send in an assault force is to capture bin Ladin

    This isn’t an unreasonable claim, though I would be willing to send men in simply to kill him. It seems obvious that capturing him would be better, but I don’t want to second guess that this was feasible. It seems like it would be, but then, I am out of my depth to say so.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  81. Dustin, I’m not suggesting the SEALs are part of any deception . I’m suggesting the lack of primary evidence of bin Laden’s death opens up the possibility bin Laden set us all up for one of the greatest hoaxes of all time.

    As for your other point, there’s no reason to send in men to kill bin Laden when we already have the means to do it from the air.

    Using 15 year old technology: CIA assets already on-site in the safe house could point a laser targeting device at the 3 story structure where bin Laden was thought to be living.

    An F-111 stealth fighter penetrates Pakistani airspace and pickles off 2 smart bombs and is well on the way home before being detected, and possibly not even then.

    The compound’s high walls so contain the blast and debris that no adjacent structures are damaged, while everyone and everything inside the compound is within the kill radius.

    Very few Americans are at risk and everyone suspected of harboring Osama bin Laden on-site is dead.

    ropelight (a82fa2)


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