Patterico's Pontifications

.223 rattling around the brain cage trumps kidney disease.

SteveG (cc5dc9) — 5/5/2011 @ 6:35 pm

i like this crazy theory…

he’s not dead, but we have him in custody. and having convinced the world he is dead, he now knows we can do whatever we want to him…

That was instapundit that came up with that one.

Aaron Worthing (73a7ea) — 5/5/2011 @ 6:40 pm

Newsmax looks at the DNA issues in identifying Bin Laden and notes the DNA test could be done quickly but the muddled Bin Laden family history raises questions about a conclusive identification.

DRJ (fdd243) — 5/5/2011 @ 6:44 pm

I’m pretty sure the kidney thing is a myth.

Or, was a myth. Muwahahahaaaa.

JohnW (527726) — 5/5/2011 @ 6:54 pm

To translate DRJ, they have been screwing cousins so much that claiming you know what bin Laden’s DNA ought to look like is Hee Haw comedy.

SPQR (26be8b) — 5/5/2011 @ 7:04 pm

SPQR – That sounds like Big Median’s family.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/5/2011 @ 7:31 pm

Well, that is the question on everyone’s lips, isn’t it? No closure on the kidney question. What a fail.

angeleno (ec0b60) — 5/5/2011 @ 7:49 pm

I don’t know, Angeleno. Did they have any intelligence assets who told them anything about bin Laden’s physical condition? Were those assets correct? Can we trust them on other matters?

I’m sure we investigated all that before hastily dumping his body in the drink to keep the Islamic fundies “happy.”

Patterico (c218bd) — 5/5/2011 @ 7:58 pm

The left insists male circumcisions violates a person’s right even if they willingly engage in it.

DohBiden (15aa57) — 5/5/2011 @ 8:02 pm

Maybe the SEAL’s got his kidneys and the tenderloins before dumping the carcass.

I mean, its the law here CRS 33-6-119(2).

SPQR (26be8b) — 5/5/2011 @ 8:05 pm

I’m sure we investigated all that before hastily dumping his body in the drink to keep the Islamic fundies “happy.”

That drink is now known as the Martyr’s Sea by those Islamic fundies.

Dana (4eca6e) — 5/5/2011 @ 8:07 pm

to keep the Islamic fundies “happy.”

Not the point. No shrine, a fait accompli — that’s the point.

angeleno (ec0b60) — 5/5/2011 @ 8:10 pm

No shrine thing does not seem to be working out.

JD (318f81) — 5/5/2011 @ 8:20 pm

If he was getting kidney dialysis at home (and why would he go out to dialysis unit?), would they not find the equipment around the villa somewhere? I am confused about what really happens to bin Laden. Some say he gets 72 Sturgeons for eternity and some are hopeful his remains will be devoured by Jewfish. My own wish is that all the islamic martyrs get 72 virgins who look like Yassir Arafat. Saw an animation set in Hades whereby 72 virgin pigs are sodomizing the Holy Warrior.
What would happen if some “anonymous” nuclear capable nation turned Mecca into a glass parking lot. How would Muslims feel about Allah’s power then? Personally I am ok with Israel’s Mossad taking out the Iran mullahs or even Tehran if Israel is about to be attacked. I know the Euroweenies/UN scum would be upset but what could they really do about it after the fact?
Also what are the chances of little zero throwing those SEALS under the bus? Doesn’t he even realize how impotent he looks if there really were a limited coup by Panetta, Gates and Clinton.
I do suppose they are a better group than what Carter had advising him.And with hindsight has anyone ever wondered what US Intelligence would be like pre-911 had it not been eviscerated under Carter? Or imagine Algore and/or Lurch sKerry in place of the W years?

Calypso Louie Farrakhan (d36a3f) — 5/5/2011 @ 8:21 pm

Not the point. No shrine, a fait accompli — that’s the point.

No it’s not.

First, they have simply moved the location of the shrine to the compound.

Second, you’re totally missing the point. I have no problem with a burial at sea. AFTER they have done the autopsy and allowed independent journalists to film the body. Then you take it out and dump it unceremoniously.

You’re conflating two issues: the manner of burial (with which I have no problem) and the hasty dump (with which I have a big problem).

Patterico (c218bd) — 5/5/2011 @ 8:36 pm

How does one do an autopsy on a devout (so to speak) muslim given the 24 hour rule?

SteveG (cc5dc9) — 5/5/2011 @ 8:39 pm

SteveG – law enforcement does not care about said rules. Until Monday, I had nevr heard of the military doing so.

JD (318f81) — 5/5/2011 @ 8:40 pm

“How does one do an autopsy on a devout (so to speak) muslim given the 24 hour rule?”

SteveG – You start cutting right away. I would have been happy to assist in spite of my lack of medical training.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/5/2011 @ 8:44 pm

So, the compound in Abbottabad(sic) is becoming a shrine…
well, we already know the co-ordinates!

AD-RtR/OS! (5261df) — 5/5/2011 @ 8:44 pm

Som a body in a shroud slips over the side sans a few internal organs, who’s gonna know?

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/5/2011 @ 8:46 pm

Actually, I’m wondering why Patterico is so sure that there wasn’t an autopsy. Is it absolutely certain that one could not have been performed? Recall that some parts of the autopsy that are particularly time-consuming may be done on samples and slides taken very quickly. Has someone seen an official statement which definitively rules this out?

Beldar (acb014) — 5/5/2011 @ 8:50 pm

Thanks, the clarification helps. I have some ambivalence about the speed, too. However, one thing the fast fait accompli has done is prevent unrest intended to pressure us into turning over the body.

angeleno (ec0b60) — 5/5/2011 @ 8:50 pm

@ daley: After they’ve been weighed and sampled, you can put the internal organs all back in before you re-stitch. And you’re right that a sea burial isn’t inconsistent in any way with the possibility that at least a limited autopsy was done.

Coulda been aboard ship; coulda been back at Bagram. I’m sure they have the facilities and personnel at both places.

Beldar (acb014) — 5/5/2011 @ 8:53 pm

(I’m thinking establishing cause of death — a typical subject that may take a lot of forensic detective work — was pretty obvious here.)

Beldar (acb014) — 5/5/2011 @ 8:54 pm

Lazy googling suggests that actually doing the procedures (as opposed to finishing up all the test results) only takes something like 2-4 hours. If a good combat surgeon can’t shave some time off that, I’d be surprised.

MD in Philly?

Beldar (acb014) — 5/5/2011 @ 8:56 pm

Patterico, re the “location of the shrine,” the joke on your (or Aaron’s?) black humor post earlier in the week is apt. Yeah, the Arabian Sea is convenient for, well, Arabs; but the world’s oceans feed into each other, such that bin Laden’s watery grave is available for celebration or desecration by anyone who can get to a sea-shore. Me, I’m planning on a memorial service of my own that will involve a summer weekend, the Galveston Bay coast, and at least a six-pack of pretty good beer to prepare.

Beldar (acb014) — 5/5/2011 @ 9:01 pm

Oh, you mean bin Laden’s compound will become a shrine. Hmm, maybe so; that would seem entirely unavoidable, though.

I’m still going ahead with my memorial service. The seas are vast, but my hatred, and urine stream, will be strong.

Beldar (acb014) — 5/5/2011 @ 9:04 pm

(I’m thinking establishing cause of death — a typical subject that may take a lot of forensic detective work — was pretty obvious here.)

In almost every case I try, cause of death is a no-brainer. 90+ percent of the time the victim was shot. Occasionally he was stabbed. That pretty much covers the waterfront.

Still, I would never accept a stipulation to the coroner, and it’s not because I want to gross out the jury. It’s because there is so much rich detail to be mined that helps corroborate (or disprove) an account of an incident.

Patterico (c218bd) — 5/5/2011 @ 9:08 pm

“Oh, you mean bin Laden’s compound will become a shrine. Hmm, maybe so; that would seem entirely unavoidable, though.”

Beldar – Not if somebody blows it up.

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/5/2011 @ 9:11 pm

Well, I heard that the Seals were armed with SIG P-226’s, which is the side-arm that delivered the coup de grace…
Did anyone in the WH buy stock in Sig-Sauer in the days leading up to the raid?
Sales are going to skyrocket as “gunners” rush to buy the gun that killed bin Laden.

AD-RtR/OS! (5261df) — 5/5/2011 @ 9:13 pm

It was a Sig, ‘eh? My father in law shoots those, and is coming for a visit tomorrow. I’m sure he’ll be pleased to learn it. I’m an HK shooter, and my wife shoots Glocks, but those Sigs may take on that 1911 mystique with this historical contribution to Osama Bin Laden’s face.

Dustin (c16eca) — 5/5/2011 @ 9:15 pm

…take on that 1911 mystique…

Bite your tongue, heretic!

I entrust my soul to God, and my life to John Moses Browning!

AD-RtR/OS! (5261df) — 5/5/2011 @ 9:17 pm

Heh. Well, I wish it had been an American manufacturer rather than a German one.

Dustin (c16eca) — 5/5/2011 @ 9:35 pm

It seems obvious that we should conduct an autopsy. We could learn quite a lot. Anything we can learn in the war on terror is worth while. These people say that they will forgo waterboarding even though it makes protecting America harder. Well, then at least scour for all the intel you can still get.

This is a no-brainer. Literally, heh.

Dustin (c16eca) — 5/5/2011 @ 9:39 pm

I don’t know if the Navy did an autopsy on Bin Laden before his burial, but how likely is it that there would be a medical examiner or pathologist on board a carrier like the Carl Vinson? I guess it’s possible they flew one out from shore.

Then again, there’s always this unofficial pathology report.

DRJ (fdd243) — 5/5/2011 @ 9:55 pm

Exactly, Patterico.
Did he really have that Kidney disease? Was he malnourished? Drugs in his system- illicit or prescription? Had he had dental work? Was he injured in the past decade? Had he had any surgeries?
There was much to learn from an autopsy.

MayBee (081489) — 5/5/2011 @ 10:46 pm

This wasn’t a gutsy call this was a cowardly dumb-ass call. This was the kind of call a craven little pussy makes when he’s mostly worried about getting his pitiful dirty socialist ass reelected as opposed to being worried about the national security of our little country.

At best it was a Carteresque call.

happyfeet (25c55e) — 5/5/2011 @ 10:52 pm

Here is an article about the medical facilities on a Nimitz class carrier like the Carl Vinson.

kaf (4a1752) — 5/6/2011 @ 5:41 am

The kidney thing was dismissed pretty convincingly in The Looming Towers by Lawrence Wright. If memory serves it was a conclusion drawn from a third-hand account of a hospital stay by someone who looked like bin Laden.

landshark (9eaaee) — 5/6/2011 @ 7:02 am

Nobody got my reference … well, it wasn’t a good joke.

SPQR (26be8b) — 5/6/2011 @ 7:19 am

Most of the comments miss Patterico’s main point (Calypso’s #14 excepted). For years, OBL has been reliably reported to have kidney failure. Here’s a short article from the medical-device trade mag MassDevice, Did bin Laden have kidney disease?

An autopsy would show if OBL really had this condition. If he did, he needed dialysis twice a week.

If he got dialysis at his secret hideout, there must have been a working, regularly-serviced dialysis machine on site. Was there? (Has anybody seen reports that address this?)

If there was no such machine, then he got his dialysis at some other facility, on an outpatient basis.

By the way (not that it’s particularly relevant), the Pakistani Army runs a number of fine hospitals within a few minutes’ drive of OBL’s hideaway.

Like Beldar, I assume that the relevant questions were addressed by a quickie autopsy on board the Vinson. So the CIA (etc.) knows. The way this has played out, there is no credible, authenticated information available to the wider public.

Does this mean that we should conclude that the answers would be awkward for certain parties? That it would complicate certain relationships?

To me, that seems likely.

AMac (4826b2) — 5/6/2011 @ 7:24 am

malignant tumor
in bin laden’s heart and soul
camel syphilis

ColonelHaiku (bd4132) — 5/6/2011 @ 7:26 am

Ah, thanks, landshark #39. Wright’s book is supposed to be one of the best accounts. Of course, if OBL’s kidneys were good, a credible autopsy would have cleared up this issue, simplifying things.

AMac (4826b2) — 5/6/2011 @ 7:27 am

From what I heard from Bush Administration officials, they captured Osama’s doctor around 2002-2003, and he stated that Osama did not have any kidney problems or dialysis needs. However the graphic image of Osama being hooked up on dialysis is too powerful to quell at this point.

eaglewingz08 (74f660) — 5/6/2011 @ 10:01 am

Wouldn’t even have to check his kidneys to see if he was using dialysis. If his veins were being hooked up to a machine twice a week for years the signs would be easy to see.
That said I think the entire “kidney failure” meme was just a huge distraction. I hope the relevant agencies did not waste to much time and resources on that aspect of the search.

Have Blue (854a6e) — 5/6/2011 @ 12:21 pm

I hope the relevant agencies leave absolutely no stone unturned.

But I think that’s just not how things work in the Obama administration.

Dustin (c16eca) — 5/6/2011 @ 12:26 pm

DRJ (#35): Lots of pathologists aren’t forensic pathologists, and lots of medical examiners aren’t pathologists, and some aren’t even doctors.

But any M.D. ought to be able, in a pinch, to do the basics, and a good combat surgeon — which I’m reasonably sure would have been available at both Bagram and aboard the Carl Vinson — could still have done a quick and probably adequate job of it.

Beldar (acb014) — 5/6/2011 @ 5:03 pm

Re that link: There’s a part of me that would be quite pleased if the autopsy was conducted aboard the Carl Vinson, especially if it were done by Lt. Cmdr. Kimberly Syres. Nothing disrespectful about that (unless you think women can’t be surgeons or Navy lieutenant commanders).

Beldar (acb014) — 5/6/2011 @ 5:06 pm

NPR stands for No Penis Required.

DohBiden (15aa57) — 5/6/2011 @ 5:10 pm

Just came across this,

Disputes over money between bin Laden and his No. 2, Ayman al-Zawahri, led the group to split into two factions five or six years ago, with the larger faction controlled by al-Zawahri, according to two senior Pakistani military officials. Bin Laden was “cash strapped” in his final days, they said.
Poor Osama been broke!

The Emperor (b64d39) — 5/6/2011 @ 5:31 pm

The Emperor, note that I said that the most significant work done by the Bush administration was breaking the money-laundering networks that Al Queda had created, a comment you ignorantly sneered at.

Now its a revelation to you?

SPQR (26be8b) — 5/6/2011 @ 5:46 pm

For that matter, it wouldn’t surprise me if both Bagram and the Carl Vinson had videoconferencing hookups through which a Navy forensic pathologist could have guided combat surgeons in doing whatever needed doing. Or given that the goal of the mission was to bring back OBL’s bony body dead or alive, with the likelihood being dead, they might have pre-positioned a forensic pathologist at one place or the other (No offense to those running Bagram, but I’m thinking the Vinson just because it’s 4-1/2 acres of sovereign U.S. territory that’s thoroughly battened down and ship-shape.)

Beldar (acb014) — 5/6/2011 @ 8:34 pm

Let me get this straight: An autopsy is needed for a guy who’s been shot in the head. Because you need to if he had bad kidneys.

Why should anyone care what the fuck you want?

Chilisize (55e50c) — 5/8/2011 @ 8:03 am

> Why should anyone care what the fuck you want?

Well, first, few people do.

Second, you ask a strange question, because the comments in this thread provide the answer.

If bin Laden required regular dialysis, how it was provided to him is a significant clue to who in Pakistan was supporting Al Qaeda’s leader. Which is relevant to the matter of who has been scamming the U.S.

It turns out that opinion is divided on the state of bin Laden’s kidneys (e.g. Snopes, “undetermined”). So — maybe — there’s nothing to see here.

AMac (4826b2) — 5/9/2011 @ 6:53 am

5/5/2011

Hey, I Was Just Wondering . . .

54 Responses to “Hey, I Was Just Wondering . . .”

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