Obama is not Releasing the Osama Death Photo and Scattered Idiocy on the Subject (Update: More From CBS Interview Released)
[Guest post by Aaron Worthing; if you have tips, please send them here. Or by Twitter @AaronWorthing.]
Update: Obama says more on the subject below the fold.
Update (II): Via Michelle Malkin, we are seeing photos from the compound including dead terrorists. But not bin Laden.
——————
I mentioned it in an update to this post, but really it deserves its own stand alone post.
In some ways we have already talked this to death. When it was announced that bin Laden’s body had been disposed of, Patrick wrote:
Second, we have waited 10 years for this. People need to see the body. They need to see the evidence. Someone wrote Instapundit earlier in the evening to say: “When do we get to see the long form death certificate?” It’s a funny crack, but beneath the surface of the joke lies a hard reality: we live in a country where people ignored tons of evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii, and where others ignored tons of evidence that bin Laden and al Qaeda caused 9/11. And in a country apparently teeming with Birthers and Truthers, you’re telling me you’re gonna dump Osama bin Laden’s body in the sea in the middle of the night?
And my only quibble is he is focused on American opinion, and I focus on the opinion of the Muslim world. Now, there are crazy people over there who believe in Mossad-controlled sharks and the like. But there are also plenty of normal people over there who simply will not believe the word of the U.S. President. Perhaps they have been lied to by their own government so much that they don’t trust the word of any government official. Or perhaps they have a real, but not insurmountable anti-American bias. These people can be convinced, if we put a little more effort into it.
Later on I learned of and I posted evidence that the quick disposal itself was specifically commanded by Islamic tradition, but it turns out that burial at sea was against Islamic tradition. So if our goal in destroying evidence was to show the Muslim world how sensitive we were, then we failed. That is right, we destroyed evidence and didn’t even get the benefit out of it we hoped for.
So consider this for a minute. Imagine this was a trial. How would we prove he was the dead guy? The president’s statement is just hearsay. He’s never even seen the body. There is DNA analysis, of course, but in any trial the other side is allowed to run its own independent tests—something that has been prevented, here. And we have the testimony of one of his daughters, but part of her story about us dragging him out in front of his family is not credible. So we are going to tell the Muslim world to believe the word of a woman we officially claim is lying? I am personally satisfied, but only a fool thinks that is sufficient for someone more skeptical but still capable of being convinced. Disposing of the body was dumb. Not releasing the photos is even dumber.
We should frankly release everything we can. The photos, any footage from the raid, all we have. Blur out details we shouldn’t see—just as they did with that famous photo of the situation room as the raid occurred:
(Look at the photo in front of Hillary. It has clearly been blurred.) Blur and edit as you have to for national security purposes, but show us everything else. The most transparent White House ever should do no less.
But the White House is too clueless to get that. From a CBS report Patrick pointed me toward:
In an interview with Steve Kroft for this Sunday’s “60 Minutes,” President Obama says he won’t release post-mortem images of Osama bin Laden taken to prove his death.
“We don’t trot out this stuff as trophies,” Mr. Obama said.
So once again the President attributes base motives to his constituents, just as he did the “bitter clingers.” We don’t want it as a trophy, Mr. President. We want it to prove to the Muslim world that yes he is actually dead. And yes, I also suspect that for some Americans who lost loved ones in that attack, it won’t seem real until they see it. Don’t they deserve some closure?
But believe it or not, Obama didn’t say the dumbest thing on the subject. Republican House Intelligence Committee Chairman Mike Rogers did. Oh boy he did.
Republican House Intelligence Committee Chairman Mike Rogers said Wednesday that the Obama administration should not release the gruesome post-mortem images, saying it could complicate the job for American troops overseas. Rogers told CBS News he has seen a post-mortem photo.
“The risks of release outweigh the benefits,” Rogers said. “Conspiracy theorists around the world will just claim the photos are doctored anyway, and there is a real risk that releasing the photos will only serve to inflame public opinion in the Middle East.”
The flammable ones will get upset over a stick figure labeled “Mohammed.” They won’t need help.
But I haven’t gotten to the really dumb part:
“Imagine how the American people would react if Al Qaeda killed one of our troops or military leaders, and put photos of the body on the internet,” Rogers continued. “Osama bin Laden is not a trophy – he is dead and let’s now focus on continuing the fight until Al Qaida has been eliminated.”
Um, Representative Rogers, they already have done exactly that. The terrorists put kill shots and videos of killing our troops on the internet all the time, you idiot. Frankly I am amazed that a guy chairing the House Intelligence Committee doesn’t know that.
And CBS gets this wrong, too:
Skeptics have called on the United States to release photos of bin Laden, who officials say was shot in the face during a raid on his compound, in order to prove that the al Qaeda leader is really dead.
No, it’s not just skeptics, but people who believe the president but are concerned that he is about to squander all value in the victory he attained. Why did we send our troops in there? I mean if we just wanted to kill him, we could have dropped a sufficiently large and deadly bomb on him and called it a day. It ain’t exactly a hardened bunker. So logically, sending in troops only makes sense if the purpose is to get the verified kill—to be sure we got him. But that verified kill, Mr. President, is useless unless we can convince people we actually got that kill.
But the President is in sanctimonious mode, now, and in my observation he is unlikely to change his mind once he gets there.
Update: This is from the very partial transcript on the subject:
KROFT: What was your reaction when you saw [the photos]?
OBAMA: It was him.
KROFT: Why haven’t you released them?
OBAMA: You know, we discussed this internally. Keep in mind that we are absolutely certain this was him. We’ve done DNA sampling and testing. And so there is no doubt that we killed Osama bin Laden.
Notice, he confuses the concept of proof to his satisfaction with proof to everyone else’s.
It is important for us to make sure that very graphic photos of somebody who was shot in the head are not floating around as an incitement to additional violence.
Except that by showing that he was mortal and could be killed like anyone, it might incite them to less.
And then he pours on the insults:
As a propaganda tool. You know, that’s not who we are. You know, we don’t trot out this stuff as trophies. You know, the fact of the matter is this was somebody who was deserving of the justice that he received. And I think– Americans and people around the world are glad that he’s gone. But we don’t need to spike the football.
(emphasis added.)
And I think that given the graphic nature of these photos, it would create some national security risk. And I’ve discussed this with Bob Gates and Hillary Clinton and my intelligence teams and they all agree.
KROFT: There are people in Pakistan, for example, who say, “Look, this is all a lie. Obama, this is another American trick. Osama’s not dead.”
OBAMA: You know, the truth is that and we — we’re monitoring worldwide reaction. There’s no doubt that Bin Laden is dead.
Um, Kroft just told you there was doubt.
Certainly there’s no doubt among al Qaeda members that he is dead.
Given you didn’t know what Kroft literally just told you, I will take that as seriously as it deserves to be.
And so we don’t think that a photograph in and of itself is going to make any difference.
Really? With none of them? Not even one? You know the Muslim world is not a monolith. They are not all the same.
There are going be some folks who deny it. The fact of the matter is, you will not see bin Laden walking on this Earth again.
And that is all CBS has released from the transcript.
Also, cribbing off Iowahawk, let’s remember how this works. Releasing pictures of the coffins of American soldiers is okay and won’t be useful as pro-al-Qaeda propoganda. Releasing pictures depicting prisoner abuse, won’t inflame the Muslim world. But releasing a picture of bin Laden shot in the eye and his brains blown out? No, no, we have to be more sensitive to them.
It’s hogwash.
[Posted and authored by Aaron Worthing.]
i thought i would post here so that everyone knows there is a new thread on the subject.
Aaron Worthing (73a7ea) — 5/4/2011 @ 12:43 pmYou’ve addressed the second part of Rogers’ statement, but not the first part, which raises a valid point.
If they don’t believe or trust Obama and/or the U.S. military, why would they believe a photo, or even film, released by Obama/the U.S. military?
So there seems little purpose — strategic or otherwise — to releasing the photo.
And at that point, all you’re left with is the transparency argument — specifically, we have an open government and we don’t hide stuff unless we HAVE to. That makes sense to me. So we should release the photo in a few months.
Kman (5576bf) — 5/4/2011 @ 12:44 pmI’m really not getting how after 10 years to plan this moment, this information rollout was not stage-managed to perfection. This administration will be a case-study in how to erode public trust.
TimesDisliker (a909e9) — 5/4/2011 @ 12:44 pmwhy should a douche like Mike Rogers get to see the pictures while real Americans are kept in the dark?
happyfeet (a55ba0) — 5/4/2011 @ 12:46 pmUm, Representative Rogers, they already have done exactly that. The terrorists put kill shots and videos of killing our troops on the internet all the time, you idiot. Frankly I am amazed that a guy chairing the House Intelligence Committee doesn’t know that.
Hell CNN did it for them-
Mogadishu.
And free of charge at that.
madawaskan (e26bf2) — 5/4/2011 @ 12:46 pmSounds to me like he’s trying to stir up another distraction like the birth certificate. Maybe that will keep everyone’s minds off the crappy economy and gas and groceries prices.
Lee (e6a37d) — 5/4/2011 @ 12:53 pmBy the way, do you really believe that, AW?
Because I think killing bin Laden was a good and useful thing to do, even if we can’t convince everybody we actually did it.
Kman (5576bf) — 5/4/2011 @ 12:55 pmTRANSPARENCY! JUDGEMENT! SUPERIOR TEMPERMENT!
I’m with Lee…
Bob Reed (5f2db5) — 5/4/2011 @ 12:56 pmI agree they should release as much evidence as possible of Osama’s death. Otherwise, it opens the door to the skepticism the world faced after WWII regarding whether Hitler was really dead.
DRJ (fdd243) — 5/4/2011 @ 12:57 pmThey have no body, and are refusing to release any evidence, other than their word (which isn’t worth a plugged nickel), that Bin Laden is dead.
I don’t believe them.
We showed pictures of al-Zarqawi when he was killed. We showed pictures of Saddam Hussein when he was captured.
But, now we have to quickly dispose of bodies, and we refuse to provide photos?
Something is rotten in Denmark.
Dave Surls (8a1070) — 5/4/2011 @ 12:58 pmkman
your problem is that you think of them as a monolith. you think 100% of them will be convinced by nothing.
some are like that. but not all of them. so stop painting them all with a single brush.
Aaron Worthing (73a7ea) — 5/4/2011 @ 12:59 pmwe have already talked this to death
— And we have a WINNER for Pun of the Day!
Icy Texan (c28ab5) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:03 pmNo, actually, that’s the opposite of what I’m saying.
I’m say most of the Muslim world accepts that OBL is dead.
And the ones that don’t? Well, it doesn’t matter. They’re not going to believe us anyway (even with visual evidence). And even if they do, it’s going to tip the scales in the “war on terrorism” in our favor drastically.
Kman (5576bf) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:03 pmNobody ever doubted that Mussolini was dead.
Icy Texan (c28ab5) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:05 pmMost transparent and ethical administration EVAH!
JD (3ad5b9) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:11 pmHypocritical, sanctimonious fools…
We don’t want to offend Muslims? We won’t release the photo. We’ll
just kill them instead.
Well that works for me.
Jack (f9fe53) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:16 pmWho really comes off looking like an idiot with this announcement is Leon Panetta, our current CIA chief and Secretary of Defense nominee. The front page headline of my newspaper today is the following:
Panetta: Expect bin Laden Photo
Either Mr. Panetta has been double-crossed or he is totally out of the loop to begin with. Either way it doesn’t inspire a whole lot of confidence in his abilities.
JVW (fb14f8) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:17 pmThere is something admirable about the devotion to Obama that Kman is showing in the face of all reason or consistency.
We’ve gone from ‘they are lunatics if they don’t agree’ and condemnations of deranged deathers to Kman saying it’s good that some don’t believe the USA’s claims. We’ve gone from ‘how dare you inflame and show insensitivity’ to ‘who cares what the middle east thinks? they can’t be changed!’
I could go on.
Fact is, one way or the other, Obama should have had this squared away before it became a problem. It’s a major and foreseeable issue. Even if he does release the photos, he was so indecisive that it will be less effective.
Worthing has a great point: we went in there to verify his death. It was much harder to do this way, and that’s why people are praising Obama. Merely bombing the place would leave open the question of if we really got our man, or were fooled.
Either that, or that theory that they captured OBL alive, and will torture and then execute him secretly, is true. Can you imagine if Obama called for such a thing? Me neither, but if he did, I’d assume he’s smart enough not to make a show over whether or not he will release the photos of the corpse. Just say “we won’t, that’s final” as soon as they announce the kill.
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:18 pm“Aug. 2, 2007: Sen. Barack Obama makes a simple promise he will often repeat to loud domestic — and foreign — applause during his $750 million presidential campaign:”
“As President, I will close Guantanamo, reject the Military Commissions Act and adhere to the Geneva Conventions…”–LA Times
Wee lil’ Barry lies about as often as he draws breath, as do his liberal cohorts, and their word that Bin Laden is dead definitely isn’t good enough for me.
Release the photos, and provide information about the raid on Bin Laden’s compound.
None of this stuff needs to be secret.
Dave Surls (8a1070) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:20 pmIf there was a trail, the photo of OBL would been to authenticated. But who would do the authenticating?
Brian (b7286d) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:20 pmif I don’t never get to see the bin laden corpse pictures how’m I ever gonna know which one’s my favorite?
happyfeet (a55ba0) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:22 pmI don’t think that was Worthing’s point, but if it was, it’s a dumb point and, well, wrong: we went in there to create his death.
Verification was only important in as much as WE needed to know if the mission was successful.
Kman (5576bf) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:23 pmThat should be “need to be to authenticated.” Writing is hard.
Brian (b7286d) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:24 pm“Obama should have had this squared away before it became a problem.”
SPC Jack Klompus (c1922b) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:26 pmSo true and well put. Even a private knows not to go outside the wire without ammo.
Kman
Here’s the deal-I am pretty sure if President Bush violated the sovereignty of a nuclear power-you would want more proof that the operation was justified.
In fact I am pretty sure that right about now your side would be screaming bloody murder about international law, the uniform code of military justice-in which the military cannot participate in certain ‘activity” and the violation of-
Jimmy Carter’s Executive Order…
But since Democrats never fail to do about faces in the most dishonorable way- it comes as no surprise.
madawaskan (e26bf2) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:26 pmGood I don’t wanna see his fugly face.
DohBiden (15aa57) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:26 pm21. if I don’t never get to see the bin laden corpse pictures how’m I ever gonna know which one’s my favorite?
— happyfeet, it’s comments like that that make me like you in spite of the rampant misogyny that you all too-often display elsewhere.
Icy Texan (c28ab5) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:33 pmMaybe if OBL was in a dress, or a dog collar, then Obambi and the leftists would demand that the whole world see pics of that. Kind of like how photographs were demanded of Abu Ghraib, and dead soldiers coffins. This is all just politics to them.
JD (306f5d) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:35 pmKman
> I don’t think that was Worthing’s point
of course not. because you haven’t done annoying things like READING THE POST BEFORE COMMENTING.
this is why we know your commentary is reflexive. you’re an expert on people being unable to be convinced by argument, because YOU ARE ONE OF THEM.
You are, as dustin said, the lunatic fringe.
But not everyone is as crazy as you.
Aaron Worthing (73a7ea) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:35 pmI think this government owes it to all the poor bastards who saw the heartbreaking pictures of those who jumped to avoid burning to show this picture.
Makewi (0864f9) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:36 pmJVW
> Either Mr. Panetta has been double-crossed or he is totally out of the loop to begin with
Or here’s another option. It was inconceivable that we wouldn’t when he said it.
Aaron Worthing (73a7ea) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:37 pmIf all those people sitting in that room got to see, I want to see as well. Besides, I don’t trust a thing Obama says or does. Should have made a public spectacle of Osama so the whole world could see.
PatAZ (81cf34) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:37 pmWhen we follow this heckler’s veto logic, I guess we have to wonder: did Obama consider not striking Osama at all because it might upset the Middle East?
What issue made Obama so indecisive about his strike?
Instapundit linked to an ‘insider’ account that some of Obama’s advisers were raising that fear, and Obama was having a hard time deciding because of that. Personally, I have a very time believing that even Obama would be that afraid. And, after all, he did order the strike.
But his reaction since then has been very consistently afraid of upsetting those who love Osama Bin Laden. This very overwrought yet generic explanation of why we would even have a grievance with OBL, then citing Bush favorably because he noted this wasn’t about Islam, then making sure the world knows they tried to honor him with an Islamic burial.
Osama Bin Laden is not a Muslim hero. Even if many Muslims think he is, he isn’t. We have to make sure we don’t elevate him to that status.
We especially need to stop acting like we’re sorry or shamed about what’s on this photo. We didn’t do anything to be ashamed of when we eliminated Osama Bin Laden. There are legitimate questions as to whether it was smart to kill him, but it was justified morally.
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:41 pmAnything our government does that would make Hillary Clinton cringe like that is probably something the voters need to be fully aware of.
I didn’t believe in showing these Abu Ghraib photos because that wasn’t a decision made from the very top. That was a mistake the admin stopped. It makes much more sense to shine light on what our highest levels of government sanctioned.
Anyone who wanted to see the worst some isolated criminals did, and doesn’t see the point in showing what our President did, is a hack.
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:45 pmWhen a criminal is put to death in the United States, the families of the victims are allowed to watch the execution. There is a reason for that. It allows the family, while not eliminating their loss completely, to gain some small measure of closure knowing that the criminal scumbag will never harm another person again.
The families of the 9-11 victims have a right to see a dead, and bloodied Osama bin Laden. It will give them that small measure of closure that is granted to the families of the victims of crime.
Unlike Kman, I really don’t give a hairy rat’s ass what the Muslim world thinks. They have done little to stop the violence that comes from their own co-religionists. I care that Americans, who have suffered so much because of ObL have some small measure of closure to the end of what will prove to be a long nightmare.
I am sick of worrying “What will the Muslims think?”. It is time for them to worry “What will the Americans do?” and for us to man-up and do what has to be done. Provide a religious funeral for ObL? Why? Have we not been told for 10 years that he didn’t represent Islam? Well, if he didn’t represent Islam, he didn’t deserve anything but to be deep-sixed and become food for bottom feeders.
But no, instead we get pablum about how it might outrage the Muslim world to see the photos of a dead man who our government has been claiming is not really Muslim. Tell me, what were the repercussions from showing photos of a dead Al Zaqawi? Or perhaps someone can tell me what the repercussions were from showing the photos of two dead sons of Saddam? How about the pictures of a young, handsome Daniel Pearle being beheaded? Was our enemy concerned about OUR feelings then? I want to know exactly what repercussions we would feel by showing the Islamic world that we will find you and we will kill you if you jack with us. No matter how long it takes.
Show the photos. Let the Islamists know what will happen to them. Give the families of the 9-11 victims some small boon.
retire05 (2d538e) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:51 pmExactly goddamn noobs.
Whites aren’t the only ones who are intolerant of interracial marriages.
DohBiden (15aa57) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:57 pm“We showed pictures of al-Zarqawi when he was killed. We showed pictures of Saddam Hussein when he was captured.
But, now we have to quickly dispose of bodies, and we refuse to provide photos?
Something is rotten in Denmark.”
– Dave Surls
I kind of agree, actually. Part of me really believes that Bin Laden is dead, but part of me thinks that there are way, way too many convenient “mistakes” in all of this for them to be actual mistakes.
Dumping the body in the middle of the night, and then even talking like you won’t release photos… I mean… seriously: What the f*ck? It’s a funny place to be – gives me a good sense of where people were coming from when they were demanding to see Obama’s long-form birth certificate. They believed he was born in Hawaii (just like I – mostly – believe Bin Laden’s dead), but there was just way too much BS flying around for that shadow of a doubt to be dispelled. Shoe’s on the other foot for me, in a way.
And, honestly, who cares what the Muslim world thinks of us releasing a death photo of Bin Laden? We didn’t kill him because he was a Muslim – we killed him because he planned the mass-murder of 3000 of our brothers and sisters. If al-Qaeda can broadcast footage of the decapitation of a non-combatant, then I think we’re reasonably justified in showing stills of a decided combatant who died in a much more humane way than his victims. If Muslims don’t like that, they can put together a memorial movie of their own – “A Mighty Turban”, or some sh*t, where all Bin Laden’s wives go around trying to figure out why – why – anyone would do such a horrible thing to their innocent, loving husband.
Leviticus (35fbde) — 5/4/2011 @ 1:58 pmAs I posted at my place, it’s called Dhimmitude. Could give a rats ass, who it “inflames”.
Obama just made a nicer (and much lower) bow to these maggots, than he did to the fat greasy Saudi dude.
JP (c4988c) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:03 pmI’m perfectly fine with them withholding the photo.
As long as they release it as the next postage stamp.
JohnW (1c4341) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:04 pmKman
btw, i was just curious. were you just as opposed to releasing the abu ghraib photos?
I mean they would tend to inflame the muslim world, turn people against us, right? so you were opposed to that, right?
Oh, wait, that’s right, you weren’t.
Aaron Worthing (73a7ea) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:04 pmExactly. We should try to show the Muslim world that we don’t associate all of them with Osama Bin Laden. Obama said one thing, but his actions say another thing.
Anyway, I don’t think we captured him alive. That’s a wonderful fantasy, but frankly, it didn’t happen. There is simply too much risk that some leak would expose the truth. In a world of wikileaks giving out Al Kuwaiti’s name (which jeopardized ever finding OBL) or tail numbers from rendition aircraft, or locations of our secret prisons… I just don’t think it’s feasible to try to secretly capture him, and then lie to the American people that we killed him.
Maybe we would capture him and say nothing, but Obama just isn’t the kind of man to take such a severe political risk as looking America in the eye and lying about that.
Capturing Osama would have been courageous, because it calls for all those morally grey issues that Bush calls ‘decision points’. Torture? Execution? Trial? It brings on some truther defenses, too. It brings on the possibility of rescue efforts and hard calls to never negotiate with some hostage taking monster.
Obama has a track record of blowing people up instead of capturing them. Why would he reverse course now, doubling down with the boldest lie in American history?
No, that’s not our guy. I can understand the cynical thought he would do it, and I really understand the benefits, but Obama took the easy road, eliminating all the leadership situations he could. Frankly, given how Obama treated Bush’s tough calls, I can almost understand.
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:07 pmAaron i do not wanna see Osama’s ugly face so I don’t mind them not releasing his photos.
DohBiden (15aa57) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:09 pmLeviticus, how many of us can say that we have never seen the film of JFK getting the back of his head blown off and his brains landing in Mrs. Kennedy’s lap?
We are adults in this nation. We can handle “bloody”. Hell, kids play video games that are more violent than any “kill” the SEALs have ever done.
Yet, we are being treated like children, having the imcompetent POTUS decide for us what we are to see. All on the pretense that it will inflame the Muslim world. SO WHAT THE HELL IF IT DOES? They stay inflamed. How many died on the report that Terry Jones planned on burning a Qu’ran? And the rainman in the Oval Office doesn’t want to inflame them?
I had to choke when the Press Secretary was saying how Obama is “concerned” about our military, and that was one of the reasons he wouldn’t release the photos. Yeah, hand me some more b/s because I am really believing that a man who knew that 40 U.S. Navy SEALs were going into the belly of the beast and there was a good chance some of them would die in that mission is so concerned about our militarythat he managed to get in only nine holes as the mission started.
retire05 (2d538e) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:09 pmone person, i forgot who, said that treating bin laden with respect is as insulting to good muslims as giving tim mcveigh a grave at Arlington cemetery.
Aaron Worthing (73a7ea) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:12 pmWhat the hell let’s go “full deather” maybe we have him-but he’s not dead yet.
Ok I went the Full Monty-(Python that is.)
madawaskan (e26bf2) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:13 pmThe one thing I’m even remotely worried about in the conspiracy theory department is that the administration found out that Bin Laden was already dead – I mean, found out in a way that convinced the hell out of them – and then decided to take credit for it by staging some sort of operation. But even that’s way out there – way out there. Which is why I’m pretty much convinced that things happened just as the administration said they happened, which is why it’s so damn frustrating that they’ve done so many suspicious and/or stupid things after the fact; because it would be “completely convinced” instead of “pretty much convinced”, if they hadn’t gone out their way to make every suspicious body-disposal maneuver in the book with an apparently total lack of self-awareness. It’s really frustrating to have that inkling of doubt floating around the back of my mind, and I resent them for placing it there with their stupidity.
Leviticus (35fbde) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:14 pmBoth Obama and that IDIOT Republican have managed to condemn President Bush with their comments about release of death photo’s. I find the whole thing very “wag the dog”…because the TRUTH never needs follow up explanations like just about everything that has come out of this White House since Sunday.
JadedByPolitics (d652e9) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:19 pmShow the pictures to Donald Trump. If he vouches for it, that’s good enough for me.
Pious Agnostic (6048a8) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:19 pmCan’t burn a Koran and can’t see the photos. There goes my Saturday night.
Birdbath (19803d) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:20 pmHA!
That’s actually pretty freaking clever. Say, they found a cave in Tora Bora with his skull in it, or they found his grave, etc. Obviously, if he wasn’t alive in this house, the most likely alternative is that he’s been dead for ages. That’s why the ‘I know Obama got him because Osama isn’t releasing a video’ is such a hack argument.
anyway, this administration gets to see my junk if I try to fly to Tuscon, and they get to feel up little kids, but I can’t see a picture of the guy they killed and then dumped in the water in a bizarre rush to honor him?
Yeah, you’re right, they have handled this in a suspicious way. And yes, I think every honest person out there has an inkling of doubt in the back of their heads about whether something fishy is up with Osama’s death. I believe we got him, but I wish I could be certain.
Thanks for articulating that feeling in a reasonable way. My relief is that their behavior can be explained as a near paralyzing fear of not appeasing Muslims enough. I honestly think that’s the only explanation that really fits the facts.
The way they handled this evidence reminds me of a cheesy 1980s murder mystery.
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:21 pmMaybe if the Seals had put a sack over his head and decapitated him with a sword then at least we’d find it on YouTube.
Birdbath (19803d) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:25 pmFine. Don’t release the pic on TV…
Just open up an online storefront where I can but a copy suitable for framing…
Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:33 pmLeviticus – it seems as though they went out of their way to make sure that these doubts would exist.
JD (b98cae) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:34 pm“My relief is that their behavior can be explained as near paralyzing fear of not appeasing Muslims enough.”
There, Dustin, you just hit the nail squarely on the head. This administration is not worried what Americans can deal with, or even what the repercussions will be, it is worried about appeasement of the Muslim world.
Again, WHO THE HELL CARES WHAT THE MUSLIM WORLD THINKS?
Those that are with us, will be happy to see Osama dead. Those, like the Muslim Brotherhood that James Clapped claimed is a peaceful organization, will hate us just as much as they did last Saturday. It will make not one damn bit of difference.
I really believed, at the announcement of ObL’s kill, that there was NO way that this administration could screw that up. I was wrong. Obama has basically told the whole nation that he really doesn’t give a damn what we want, he will do what he wants and we can all go pound sand. You know that 11 point bumb he got? Consider it gone.
retire05 (2d538e) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:34 pmI know, right?
I’m glad they got him. It speaks well of Obama that his administration was relentlessly searching for him.
but if you have the balls to shoot a guy in the face, have the balls to act like you’re not ashamed of the grisly reality of it. The most famous picture of Mussolini is his hanging upside down. Those who put him there were proud, as we should be. It’s powerful to show our enemies that in our Western culture of being more just and kind and civil, we still have no shame about destroying a terrorist.
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:45 pmDustin, but you just don’t understand. We wouldn’t want to inflame the Muslim world. If we just continue to show them that we are better than they are (crapping in their dirt holes) that they will throw down their bomb vests and want to become peaceful. You know, nothing makes a people want to be peaceful like telling them you are better than they are.
How much you want to bet that these photos get “leaked” shortly before the election in November, 2012?
retire05 (2d538e) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:53 pmIf the “Muslim world” gets angry due to the photos we can always send the NASA director to the ME to remind them how their people were awesome in science centuries ago. Self-esteem and whatnot.
SPC Jack Klompus (c1922b) — 5/4/2011 @ 2:59 pmDon’t forget. This is the WH that trolls the internet looking for the odd article about Michelle Obama and directs a publisher to pull a couple of sentences about FLOTUS that is a tiny bit negative.
Now, after nine months, dozens of meetings throughout the Administration, some even including the CIC his self and. lo, verily, we have this circus unfolding. What happened? Did Axlerod’s propaganda ops go to Aruba on vacation this week?
This level of incompetence i s simply not credible. Something else is afoot.
cedarhill (c4747c) — 5/4/2011 @ 3:01 pmI love how the lefturds accuse us of spewing hate but yet they spew hate against religions except for islam.
DohBiden (15aa57) — 5/4/2011 @ 3:05 pm_________________________________________
it is worried about appeasement of the Muslim world.
It’s more foolish than that, or more idiotic than people showing signs of the Stockholm Syndrome. I’m referring to those who perceive Islamicists as though they’re bratty, overly emotional kids — with weapons — and therefore have to be treated accordingly, including with kid gloves.
But keep in mind the biases of someone like Jeremiah Wright — with his “goddamn America,” “chickens coming home to roost” venom — who was a close spiritual adviser to Obama, but only until controversy forced a change in plans. Or the ultra-liberal slant of Obama’s Attorney General, Eric Holder, who didn’t want to characterize the Fort Hood killer as being an Islamic fanatic.
IOW, folks on the left have a knack for sympathizing with the wrong people, the wrong situations. For seeing bad people as good, good people as bad.
I mentioned yesterday about my observations of a person of the left in my workplace. He was rather excited about the forced departure of Egypt’s Hosni Mubarak not long ago. By contrast, he was rather subdued the day after the death of Bin Laden.
BTW, this same person several months ago sneered to me that Clarence Thomas was horrible to women. He also derided him as a “Tom.” What’s pathetically hilarious about this individual is he’s a big fan of Bill Clinton, that paragon of honor and virtue when it comes to females.
Mark (411533) — 5/4/2011 @ 3:06 pmI just heard that Obama went back to have his speech about the Osama strike reenacted, with the teleprompters removed. On this momentous occasion, where men have performed an amazing feat of competence, Obama is vainly ashamed of an honest portrayal of his need for a teleprompter.
cedarhill, it is interesting that they didn’t leave much time for an autopsy. I hope they did one, as there were a lot of reports about his kidneys that we really should verify. Little details like that shouldn’t be brushed aside. Anyway, consider that Axelrod and Obama completely screwed up the nation’s impression of Obamacare, or the stimulus. Just because they are desperate to manage information doesn’t mean they are any good at it.
I think the Michelle censorship thing is a good example of how they actually suck at this.
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/4/2011 @ 3:08 pmScott
> Just open up an online storefront where I can but a copy suitable for framing…
Or printing on a roll of TP.
Aaron Worthing (73a7ea) — 5/4/2011 @ 3:09 pmMy ass is too good for Osama’s face.
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/4/2011 @ 3:10 pm_________________________________________
directs a publisher to pull a couple of sentences about FLOTUS that is a tiny bit negative.
More telling and revealing was their threatening the San Francisco Chronicle not just so much for one of its reporters using a cellphone cam to capture protesters at an Obama fundraiser, but for even publicizing that the White House wanted to punish that reporter and her employer in the first place.
The United “Banana Republic” States of America.
Mark (411533) — 5/4/2011 @ 3:11 pmYou all throw around words like clueless. Well, he did it, and he isn’t strutting. Just working on something else. As, I’m sure, Bush would have. That’s their job, to know more than you or I, and work effectively.
Jenny (61a90f) — 5/4/2011 @ 3:12 pmWhy is he going to Manhattan tomorrow?
Anyway, why shouldn’t we criticize Obama’s mistakes?
I disagree. That might be necessary for an urgent purpose, but it’s certainly not their job to make sure we are less informed than the elites are. Ah, but you just exposed yourself. You claim there is a secret we don’t know, and it’s their job to keep it that way.
Sounds a little kooky.
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/4/2011 @ 3:15 pmWasn’t Obama’s lickspittle John Corzine a wall street exec?
DohBiden (15aa57) — 5/4/2011 @ 3:17 pmIf Obama’s job is to know more than you or I, then he gets a fail. On most topics, Obama appears to know less than the average 6th grader.
Rochf (f3fbb0) — 5/4/2011 @ 3:26 pmIt’s that kind of elitist nonsense that has brought this country to where it is today.
It is not Obama or Bush’s job to act like a raving narcissist.
DohBiden (15aa57) — 5/4/2011 @ 3:27 pmSeriously Jenny, can I have some of what you’re smoking? It must be nice to have your head in the clouds all the time, but you see for people like me, those of us who have blood on the line, well we just don’t have that convenience of having our head shoved so far up Obama’s ass that we can’t breath. Show us the darn pictures, most of us are adults and have seen worse. Oh that’s right, it’s not the Americans Obama is worried about, it’s his muslim brothers. And don’t tell me he’s worried about the soldiers welfare because he’s the same jerk wad who has no problem in releasing photos of abuse in our military prisons. Yea, nothing inflames muslims like showing abuse. So seriously Jenny, I want what ever it is you’re taking.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 3:39 pmA hat tip and salute to Spec Ops Mom! I just got back from the ‘stan two months ago.
SPC Jack Klompus (c1922b) — 5/4/2011 @ 3:45 pmThank you so much for your service SPC Jack Klompus. You are a special breed indeed. Mine is still over there, on his 6th tour. Now, in unison, show me the darn pictures.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 3:48 pmSpecOpsMom, of course, you’re right. The photos should be released. We are adults. We can handle a little blood and guts. How many American news outlets published the photos of the burned bodies of American contractors hanging from a bridge? How many of us have watched the video of Daniel Pearle?
Like I said before, I never thought there was any posbbile way that Obama could screw this up. I was wrong. Now, Scott Brown, and others, are claiming that the administration showed them FAKE photos of a dead ObL. My God, how deep is the ineptness of this administration?
retire05 (2d538e) — 5/4/2011 @ 3:51 pmThere is a saying in Brazil that when you kill a snake you should show us the head. So, show us the head!
The Emperor (4e1ab1) — 5/4/2011 @ 3:52 pmWell, he shouldn’t have screwed it up, but remember who you’re talking about. What hasn’t he screwed up? And I’m sorry, I don’t see where he “showed” courage. Nope, but the Seal team, now that’s courage.
I told earlier of having attended a funeral today of someone who was killed over there and my 7 yr old grandson stood and saluted during the whole procession (he was actually shown doing that on the local news, grandma beams with pride). Obama cowers in the corner of the released photo, in golf clothes no less and I’m somehow suppose to be able to muster up the words to say he acted in “courage”. I think not.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 3:56 pmMike Malloy: when are the SEALs going to kill Bush, since he’s so much worse than Bin Laden ever was?
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/4/2011 @ 3:59 pmMust be part of Obama’s “muslim outreach” program, all I can figure out.
No Soup For YouUhh, sorry. No Picture For You
JP (c4988c) — 5/4/2011 @ 4:05 pmYep, saw that Dustin
My post shows..
Only difference between a pic of this sissy man and a bin Laden, DEAD IS, bin Laden’s pic reportedly show brain matter, this little girls, wouldn’t..
JP (c4988c) — 5/4/2011 @ 4:07 pmPhotos of some of the deceased (but not Bin Laden) have been released by Reuters, so I don’t see how releasing other photos would make a big difference.
DRJ (fdd243) — 5/4/2011 @ 4:10 pmLeviticus! Welcome to the dark side! You’ve hit it on the head. Had Obama released his damn birth certificate when he was first asked to, getting on for three years ago, the nutcases like Berg and Taitz might not have been convinced, but the rest of us would have been. It was his inexplicable refusal to do so, despite every effort that was made, that raised suspicions, even among those of us who just could not believe in so unlikely a thing as a Kenyan birth. Instead, we thought, there must be something else he’s hiding, something that didn’t affect his eligibility but would be politically embarrassing, and so of course we wanted to see it. Well, it turned out he was just being secretive for its own sake; but he created the birther movement, and if it hasn’t gone away yet it’s his fault.
And now he’s creating a deather movement, because while I do think bin Laden really was in that house, and they really did kill him, if you asked me just why I believe it I’m not sure I could adequately explain it. It’s mostly that the alternative is so implausible, the lie couldn’t be sustained for long, someone would be bound to talk; in other words it’s a Big Lie. But we all know what that Nazi (Goering? Goebels?) said about Big Lies; it takes balls to tell one, but sometimes that very fact helps you get away with it, at least for long enough. So if you put me on the stand I couldn’t swear that I really believe it, because there are too many Little Lies surrounding it.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 5/4/2011 @ 4:21 pmNot releasing the photo because “they” know what’s best for us is just another variation on the theme of rules that say chefs can’t add salt to your restaurant meals, no plastic bags are allowed for your groceries, you must use curly lightbulbs, and you must neuter all pets, etc. etc.
I am sick and tired of being treated as a child by government types no matter who they are.
elissa (7af3d9) — 5/4/2011 @ 4:28 pmSure, they are grusome but if we can stand four, why not one more? And personally, I don’t think the woman should be exempted. If she was there and tried to protect someone, bring her on.
PatAZ (81cf34) — 5/4/2011 @ 4:35 pm@DRJ, nice pics.. death looks so good on terrorists..
The Emperor (a76824) — 5/4/2011 @ 4:45 pmDRJ
Yeah after i finish watching SAW and Saving Private Ryan, and playing Grand Theft Auto IV, i am not sure i can psychologically cope with seeing dead terrorists.
Aaron Worthing (73a7ea) — 5/4/2011 @ 4:47 pmI have a new name for the late Osama bin Laden: Fish food! LOL!!
The Emperor (f3ef9a) — 5/4/2011 @ 4:50 pmBut seriously I think we all deserve to see the pictures of Fishfood. F*ck those mad muslim fundaMENTALists. F*ck them and their f*cking death spreading ideology. And who cares if they are going to be mad to see Fishfood’s death picture? Who cares? Show the f-ing pictures already.
I am beginning to get a strange feeling about all of this bin Laden thing. Items, and facts, are not stacking up the way I think they should.
We are being told that SEAL Team Six took out ObL. Ok, I trust our Navy SEALs. We were shown a photo of the “Situation” room where a number of high ranking cabinet members are sitting around watching a TV screen, apparently in live time, as this mission is going down. Great. We are told that Osama was shot in the head. Great again. His body was taken to a ship, washed, and buried under what the administration believes to be Islamic tradition. OK, I’m not happy about that, but its something I can live with although we were told ObL wasn’t really a Muslim.
Now, the time line: the mission was at 3:30 p.m. EST. It is being reported that it took 40 minutes, I assume at the compound, including a 20 minute fire fight, after which the SEALs loaded up a dead ObL, and one of his sons, and flew back to Afghanistan. So far so good.
But wait. How long did it take to fly from Bagrahm to Abbadabad? Was Obama on the golf course as our SEALs were enroute to Abbadabad? If so, why? And why does the story keep changing? Now we read that Panetta says there was a 25 minute window where they (the heads of State) had no contact with the SEAL team. So we can assume that the heads of State didn’t really see the kill. If there was no video, why were they all staring at a TV screen that had no video on it?
And more story changes: first, ObL was shot in the head, then he was shot in the head and the chest, now he was shot TWICE in the head and once in the chest. If it was a “capture or kill” mission, isn’t the STO to first take a body mass shot and then put a rifle barrel to ObLs temple telling him, through the interpreter that was there, to remain still? Wouldn’t a handcuffed ObL, in the custody of the U.S. government be a more valuable story than a dead ObL with no photos of a dead ObL?
Day by day, the story evolves, changes, takes new twists and turns. We are now being told that we can’t see the photos because it would inflame the Muslim world. How can they be any more inflamed than they already are? And we are being told that ObL had 500 Euros sewn into the lining of his garments, along with two phone numbers. Where are the clothing ObL was wearing? Does the administration think we are such wimps that we could not stand viewing bloody clothing any more than we could stand seeing a terrorist with parts of his head blown off? We are being told that there was at least two wives, one who was shot in the leg. Would she not have been a storehouse of intel?
Oh, and the daughter now claiming that ObL had surrendered by was shot dead anyway. How does that jive?
We were told by Panetta, in no uncertain terms, that photos would be forthcoming. Today, no photos? What’s going on in the White House?
Why does the story keep changing? As soon as those SEALs got back to base, they were debriefed. All of them. Each SEAL would describe the mission, and his part in it. Let’s say that the entire mission, from lift off to landing, took four hours. Within an hour, each SEAL had been debriefed. That means that by 10:00 p.m. Sunday night, the administration knew exactly what happened. Yet, every day the story changes, new information is released (except for the actual proof of ObL’s death, the photos), Obama goes on a national TV show, and the spin continues.
And where is ObL’s dead son? Was he not given an Islamic burial as well? What did our government do with his body?
I am not a grassy knoll kinda person. But somehow, just this afternoon, this whole thing is beginning to not feel right to me.
retire05 (2d538e) — 5/4/2011 @ 4:52 pmMike Rogers bio is here. Former Army officer (a company commander), former FBI Special Agent, a key figure in the development of the Patriot Act. He’s concerned that releasing a photo of Bin Laden with half his skull blown off will increase the already grave risks faced by American soldiers in Afghanistan and elsewhere. For that, Aaron Worthing calls him “dumb” and “an idiot.”
Remind me, again, who is Aaron Worthing?
angeleno (ec0b60) — 5/4/2011 @ 4:59 pmangelino
He is dumb for not knowing that terrorists have already done exactly what he imagined, especially given that he is on the intel committee.
Aaron Worthing (73a7ea) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:00 pmI so want to believe that OBL was killed, I do but then I spend a few seconds thinking about the people running the country at the moment and reject anything that they “say” as the standard issue lies and BS.
Unfortunately, from what we really know, we won’t spike the football being nobody saw anyone score a TD.
It’s kind of fitting that the entire planet also thinks this is a ruse, many would be those who jumped in it with us in Iraq and Afghanistan, who lost good people too and now those folks can’t be sure that the guy who started it all is dead.
But hey, some radical zealots won’t have “their” sensibilities inflamed, Christ, think about that just paints a clear picture that we lost, OBL won.Even after death that SoB defeated us by denying Americans there long sought after proof os his demise, our leaders caved into him for one pathetic reason or another.
I have the picture in my mind of OBL spiking a football in Hell.
justavoter (b2ea2a) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:04 pmWell angeleno, wonder what you and Rogers think about Obama wanting to show “abuse” photos. You cool with that? Now, again, having a son over there, I can guarantee they’re not afraid of having the photos shown, but they are afraid of a commander in chief who bows to our enemies and worries about muslim sensibilities more so than he does with American sensibilities. I guess you would fit into that group as well. And my opinion of him as well, well let’s just say he’s about as intelligent as our “stutterer in chief”.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:05 pmjustavoter, I can’t even imagine Obama holding a football considering I’ve seen his basketball techniques and knowing that he can’t golf either. And you’re right, not showing the pictures because we’re afraid of hurting their wittle feelings tells me that the “apologizer in chief” is at it again.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:11 pmSomeone with the clarity to call a spade a spade. Mike Rogers is a national disgrace. Comparing Osama Bin Laden to a US Soldier is embarrassing and idiotic.
You initially said we were too partisan, but now you see conservatives criticizing Republicans who handle this situation poorly.
So now you know that we stand on principle, not party, and your accusations were grossly unfair.
Tell me, who is angeleno again?
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:13 pmThe Internet meme: Pics or it didn’t happen!
htom (412a17) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:15 pmRemind me, again, who is Aaron Worthing?
Comment by angeleno — 5/4/2011 @ 4:59 pm
the guy with power to ban your a$$ from this blog. Just kidding. Eh AW? Tell him am kidding…
The Emperor (a71aa2) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:21 pmMike Rogers is a national disgrace.
Do you really believe that, Dustin? My take is that, as one who has served, he’s more concerned with real world consequences for America’s soldiers than he is for tough-guy posturing.
angeleno (ec0b60) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:22 pmDustin, thank you. Yes Rogers is a disgrace to compare a US Soldier to Osama Bin Laden. But then so is angeleno for sticking up for Rogers. And I’m an ex dem, now Independent.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:23 pmOK, so nobody want to answer my question? Where is Osama bin Laden’s dead son’s body if the SEALs took him along when they left Abbadabad?
retire05 (2d538e) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:26 pmAngeleno – would you give him the same deference if he was saying something you disagreed with?
JD (ae1280) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:27 pmJD, I would give you the same deference — I have resisted the temptation to call you an idiot many times.
angeleno (ec0b60) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:29 pmretire05, his son is probably in line to be one of Obama’s czars.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:29 pmDitto.
JD (ae1280) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:31 pmWe should have impaled Osama Bin Laden’s corpse on a stake cast from one of the girders of the World Trade Center and displayed his body at Ground Zero.
Michael Ejercito (64388b) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:32 pmSpec Ops Mom, I’m serious; it was reported that the SEALs took ObL’s son’s body with them. So where is it? Did they bury him at sea as well? Do they still have the body?
retire05 (2d538e) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:34 pmThere’s this story floating around the web. I have no idea whether it’s true, someone’s insider gossip, or total BS. But it has a certain amount of internal logic to it and the people involved seem to be in character:
http://socyberty.com/issues/white-house-insider-obama-hesitated-panetta-issued-order-to-kill-osama-bin-laden
If true, and I admit it’s a huge if, it could explain a lot about what’s going in the WH. Like why they can’t get their stories straight. Whether OBL was armed/unarmed, if the mission was to capture/kill OBL and the photos will definitely/definitely not be made public. And how Obama supposedly found his inner Rambo.
Count de Money (4776a5) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:34 pmI was serious, angeleno. Would you be throwing Rogers resume in our faxes if he was taking a position opposite of yours?
JD (ae1280) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:36 pmI feel like this is a little improper, but I also served, angeleno. I say that only because I think it is really ugly to brandish military service to prove an unrelated point, or to prove one is patriotic to the point where someone like you gets to insult people who criticize an obvious bit of idiocy.
who in the hell made you the judge of someone’s devotion to their country?
Rogers insulted me and the memory of my friends. I’m sure he didn’t intend to do so, but his comments were rude and idiotic.
Mike serves in our Congress, and I am ashamed of him. It disgraces our country to elevate Osama Bin Laden to the same level as someone who fell in battle. Showing a picture of Osama’s body is not at all similar to the display of our fallen soldiers by ghoulish cheering jihadists.
Yes, I really believe that. Why are you to claim I am insincere about my principles? Before, you claimed I was being partisan, but now you see me criticize someone from my own party, and therefore know I stand on principle. You should apologize for that.
It is absolutely absurd to claim that the people who would be moved to violence over the treatment of Osama Bin Laden aren’t already moved to violence every day. I am tired of this attitude of acting ashamed of what we did to Osama Bin Laden. It is important that we show that he is not treated with any deference by the USA, and that we are not sorry or ashamed for ending his life in the way we did.
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:38 pmSpec ops Mom, If your name reflects the reality of you being a mother of a spec ops trooper then first off, thank you for raising someone of that caliber.
Second off, how do you handle it when those running the show cow tow to our enemies while at the same time showing such flagrant disregard to the troops and American citizenry?
I don’t really mean to be an overkill bummer here but it is so damn obvious that these politicians, both R’s and D’s show us that they have been so clearly called to heel by these zealots that it’s become sickening.
And I’m quite serious when I say this party is over as far as fighting terrorism goes, sure we can go anywhere at any time and destroy our enemies but when our enemies “control” our leaders as they so obviously do, when our leaders are called to heal so easily, whether it be some crazy preacher who burns a Koran that results in leaders of the USA actually making suggestions to make one of our basic rights(however crazy) illegal or denying Americans their well deserved due(as well as the rest of the non Islamic countries of the world) in viewing the evidence of the idiot who attacked us on 09/11 simply proves without a shadow of a doubt that our leaders are beyond defeated.I would hope that our leaders would not presume to insult us by making feeble excuses on why they are “afraid” to show the evidence when it is so obviously apparent.
Unfortunately, there are thousands and thousands of people are spiking footballs. it just isn’t us.
Obama actually told the truth, once, when he said that if it came down to it, he would stand with the Muslims.He got his chance, and did.
justavoter (b2ea2a) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:38 pmretire, I didn’t mean to imply that you weren’t serious, I was just “funnin”, but no, who knows where the body is. I mean they haven’t had their story straight for any of this so far. It all stinks to high heaven. All I know is that Obama needed a pick me up, so to speak in the polls and “voila”, we have a supposedly “dead Osama”. If they can’t get their story straight about Osama, and I won’t use Usama, it’s Osama, then how could we ever expect to hear the truth about the son? And with a complacent MSM, no one is asking about the son.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:38 pmYeah, that’s a great point. I have a suspicion that polling the military on foreign policy or Obama would not yield much agreement with anything angeleno says. But it’s not rational to use that as a response to his points. Why do democrats like to bible thump, employ racism, employ fear of terrorism, and employ ‘my side has a guy who served!!!!’ as arguments? It gets old.
—
retire, that is a really interesting question about the second body we took. I assume they gave it a burial at sea, and have two videos. Or at least, witnesses in the navy to two funerals and sea burials.
Please please please may Obama have buried the son because Osama was being pumped for information. That would change his disturbing incompetence into selfless covering for national security reasons. Honestly, it would completely change my appraisal of him as a man. It’s also extremely unlikely.
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:44 pmjustavoter, I don’t handle it well anymore. In fact, it’s part of why I’m not a voting democrat anymore. I could go on and on about the crap I got when my son enlisted after graduating from college. Then that helped to show me the hypocrisy of the left, especially about “wombs”. They didn’t want anyone to “touch” that issue, but man you better do what we say about how to raise your kid, what to eat, what to drive, and the list goes on. Now, I just get quite pissed and only difference is, I don’t hold back anymore. I’m not going to just sit down and shut up. And I’m sure hell not going to be PC. I’ve voted for over 35 years, put 3 kids through college, went back to school myself and watched as two of my sons went into dangerous fields, one in the speci ops and one is a cop in a very dangerous area of Ohio. So to answer you question, I write e-mails to my reps, I talk to everyone now who will listen, I check out resume’s of my elected officials and I pray. Prayer is the only thing that really gets me through the tough times. But I’ll be darn if I will sit down and shut up ever again.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:46 pmI am tired of this attitude of acting ashamed of what we did to Osama Bin Laden.
Dustin, shame has nothing to do with it. Rogers is making a prudential argument. I agree with him.
One may certainly disagree, but to call him “dumb,” “an idiot” and “a disgrace” is far from admirable, however characteristic it may be of the style of argumentation here. His personal history suggests that he’s an honorable man. He deserves better.
angeleno (ec0b60) — 5/4/2011 @ 5:59 pmangeleno, I definitely disagree with you. Rogers is a putz and an ignorant one at that. The MSM couldn’t wait to run pictures of our contractors hung from bridges, people jumping from the towers and those who posted Daniel Pearls beheading on youtube. It’s hypocritical to say the least and he’s stupid if he didn’t realize it. If you call that honorable, then you haven’t met someone who is really honorable and therefore don’t know how to judge it. And the MSM never hesitates to show the burning of our flags, efigies in the ME as if to “gloat” about how “cruel” we’re suppose to be.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 6:08 pmThey haven’t hesitated to show the wikileaks without concern on what it would do to our troops, didn’t hesitate to show the abusive pictures at the military in Iraq. So please, take your judgemental hypocritcal self righteous attitude about your fake concern for our soldiers. I don’t care for appeasers.
Spec Ops Mom, I, too, have served. I assure you, my concern is not faked.
angeleno (ec0b60) — 5/4/2011 @ 6:13 pmPresident Snow Job’s M.O. is to confuse and frustrate the American people at every turn. It is an ongoing psy-op inspired by Alinsky style tactics: mock your opponent and upend their sensibilities so you may discount them.
He was clearly out of the loop at “go-time” and had to have his sorry butt keel hauled into the sitch room, without his Geri Curl Princess Val Jarrett and her “do.” (Check out this theory: Snow Job is on the down low for real and Val is puttin it to him with one of them Snap On Tools, ol Billie Jean King made famous back in the day).
But I digress… clearly. Here is the point: President Snow Job is back in the loop so now he is controlling information flow out of the WHouse in his petulant “clingers all of you!” manner.
Frustrate and confuse. Don’t let us have a moment’s rest. And here comes the debt ceiling debate with all of us frazzled and ticked off….not a peep from Congressional “leaders” about this sharade. Have they been given orders about how President Fop wont like them if they criticize him?
What the hell is in the Kool Aid flowing in DC? Dhimmitude! Dhimmitude! Tastes Great!!! Have some! Have some! Can’t Wait!!!!
The federal government is about as strong as a wet grocery sack. The executive branch even worse.
Salute to all of our warriors. Six tours. Sweet Screaming Jesus, SPec OP Mom, you got brass balls in your DNA. Salute!!!!
Bear1909 (28e54e) — 5/4/2011 @ 6:14 pmThis is going to be the best Shark Week EVAR!!!
Scott Jacobs (d027b8) — 5/4/2011 @ 6:14 pmangeleno, driving VIP’S around in the car pool doesn’t count.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 6:19 pmScott Jacobs, I heard today that Osama was going to meet his 72 sturgeons…….lol
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 6:20 pmBear, thank you but I can assure you that I got my “brass balls” from him, not vice versa. It’s his steely strength, that has given me mine.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 6:22 pmangeleno been breathin too much carbon monoxide down in East Los. LMAO lay of the paint chips, Breh! it’s not a good idea to stand up for an FBI bonehead with MP training. He leads with his shaved, recurring hairy behind. Look at his record on the issues and then defend him. We’ll make a measure from that effort— until then, chuddup. You sound retarded. Just sayin. You got served. Let it go, Ese. For real, Homes.
ROFLMAO
Bear1909 (28e54e) — 5/4/2011 @ 6:24 pmWord on that Spec Ops Mom! Hopefully it will become an inherited trait. Best regards!
Bear1909 (28e54e) — 5/4/2011 @ 6:25 pmBear I think it has. I already mentioned that I went to a military funeral today and my 7 year old grandson saluted the procession, which was about 20 minutes long. He didn’t waiver and wasn’t coached. I’m beaming with pride because of what he did. He loves his uncle and did it out of respect that he knew he couldn’t be there to do it.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 6:28 pmThere is a strength in this Nation that our enemies within, especially the Red Queen Media, does not comprehend….and it is being passed on.
Let the people know the truth and the Nation will be saved. -A.Lincoln
Bear1909 (28e54e) — 5/4/2011 @ 6:38 pmDOH! do not comprehend…not “does not comprehend”….sorry AW! lol
Bear1909 (28e54e) — 5/4/2011 @ 6:39 pmYou know if Obama is really dead, why is the FBI still posting the $25 million reward? Huh? I bet you can’t explain that. (j/k)
More seriously, what is this stuff about some Senators being shown a photo of the dead bin Laden that they now think is not authentic? What the hell is going with this batch of incompetents in the White House?
SPQR (26be8b) — 5/4/2011 @ 6:51 pmSPQR – I had not heard of that. Really?! Are they that amateurish?
JD (d48c3b) — 5/4/2011 @ 6:58 pm________________________________________
we are seeing photos from the compound including dead terrorists. But not bin Laden.
I originally thought it was okay to expressly not release the photo of the dead Bin Laden. But after seeing the pictures of the other people killed in the raid, and mulling over the idea that the sensitivities of honorable, noble, wonderful, uh, radical Muslims would be greatly offended if they became aware of the public image of bullet-holed bin Laden floating around, I’ve changed my mind. Release the damn photo.
Mark (411533) — 5/4/2011 @ 6:59 pmMore seriously, what is this stuff about some Senators being shown a photo of the dead bin Laden that they now think is not authentic? What the hell is going with this batch of incompetents in the White House?
From this story, it doesn’t appear that the White House had anything to do with it. Three senators were shown a picture by another senator, then learned it was inauthentic. Perhaps it was the same photo Aaron posted here the other day, before he knew it was a fake.
angeleno (ec0b60) — 5/4/2011 @ 7:01 pmValerie Jarrett is doing an absolutely fabulous job as co-president.
elissa (7af3d9) — 5/4/2011 @ 7:13 pmWhy is he going to Manhattan tomorrow?
Because it’s all about him. Which is why the only official photo will be The One and the gang watching the raid.And why he is going to NY tomorrow. They are now pretending no one taped it, but that is complete bullshit. The Seals will keep that tape for training and rightful bragging. So now instead of celebrating the Seals’ righteous deed instead we get a week of the wonderfulness of President Obama. May be we could also get photos of Obama slpeeing on it for 16 hours before giving the green light.What a dick.
Bugg (4e0dda) — 5/4/2011 @ 7:15 pmWhat?
Shame on you.
I didn’t say it was dishonorable to serve in the military.
I said he said something disgraceful, embarrassing, and idiotic.
YOU’RE the one who brought his military service into it, not me. You’re the one who tried to shut someone down for not being a veteran when making a reasonable criticism of a congressman’s conduct. BTW, Aaron has a disability and may not be able to serve. I am not sure, and I don’t think it’s relevant to his argument. You’re the one beating him up for not being protected by this veteran status, though, so it’s worth noting.
I don’t know many veterans who pretend another veteran is immune from criticism merely for having served. It’s great he served honorably, but he is a disgrace for his extremely ill advised comment.
Shame on you for waving someone’s military service around as though it justifies the ‘who are you?’ personal attack you made on Aaron.
BTW, what was your MOS?
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/4/2011 @ 7:42 pmDustin, you need to calm down. I’m not claiming veteran status gives anyone immunity from criticism. The gross disrespect that you and Aaron resort to so very easily is another matter altogether.
angeleno (ec0b60) — 5/4/2011 @ 7:52 pmI need to calm down? What indication do you have that I’m not calm?
And what was your MOS?
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/4/2011 @ 7:54 pmbtw, you’re the one who insisted, from the first moment we started talking about this issue, that we were too partisan. Are you going to ignore the fact that we clearly aren’t? We’re critical of Republicans and Democrats, based on our various opinions and principles.
You said
<blockquoteFormer Army officer (a company commander), former FBI Special Agent, a key figure in the development of the Patriot Act. He’s concerned that releasing a photo of Bin Laden with half his skull blown off will increase the already grave risks faced by American soldiers in Afghanistan and elsewhere. For that, Aaron Worthing calls him “dumb” and “an idiot.”
Remind me, again, who is Aaron Worthing?
Comment by angeleno
and then this:
You think someone cannot be called an idiot for an extremely controversial comparison, if they are a veteran, because you think that gives him a special status on matters of concern for our troops.
You also said:
You were suggesting someone had said something about his honor, instead of simply noting his comparison of Osama Bin Laden to a US Serviceman is idiotic, insulting, and disgraceful.
That was not honest, was it? No one was insulting the concept of being a veteran.
No, you resorted to disrespect quickly, not me. You came here claiming we were reacting with partisanship, and never explained that when asked. You openly questioned ‘who is Aaron’ with the clear intent of saying that he’s not good enough to criticize someone like Mike Rogers.
Many times, you have been faced with a reasonable rebuttal, and simply ignored it. Hell, you called someone an idiot in this thread, too, so you’re a complete hypocrite.
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:01 pmActually one actuallu had higher expectations of Rogers, because of his credentials, not less, and he really has dissapointed, on that score. Does anyone really think in the era of wikileaks these
narciso (79ddc3) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:05 pmpictures will not get out.
“I’m not claiming veteran status gives anyone immunity from criticism.”
angeleno – That sure looked like an Absolute Moral Authority card you played against Aaron earlier. Maybe it was just a really douchey comment instead?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:06 pmThank you, Narciso. That’s why I keep asking angeleno what his MOS was. I wouldn’t expect a veteran to compare US Soldiers killed in action to Osama Bin Laden. It’s very surprising, and rather than brush it off because he’s a vet himself, I think it’s more embarrassing.
And he keeps saying that Mike was concerned for the troops, suggesting something very ugly about those who disagree, and something completely irrelevant to the ugliness of his comparison.
Obviously, it was a very idiotic comment, and it’s not acceptable from someone in Rogers’s high position. At the very least, we need someone else chairing his committee who values Military Service to the extent where they don’t compare these great people to Osama Bin Laden.
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:08 pmWell I say again, show the damn pictures. Obama said “we don’t spike the football”, but he’s allowed to to the “touchdown dance” at GZ? Again, hypocrites.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:08 pmI was trained as a supply clerk, 76A, and worked in an orderly room as a clerk typist, 71B.
Hey, someone had to do it.
You know, Dustin, you and Aaron can disagree strenuously with Rogers. You can say he’s wrongheaded. But I don’t see that either of you have the status to call him idiotic. You demean yourselves when you do.
angeleno (ec0b60) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:10 pm“Douchey.” Thanks for that, daleyrocks, I knew I could count on you.
angeleno (ec0b60) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:13 pmThey don’t have the “status”? OMG, you’re rich. lolololololol YOu liberals love that word “status”. Tell you what, you take your “status” and put it where the sun doesn’t shine. Rogers was out of line and so are you. I guess I was close when I said “car pool”.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:14 pmangeleno, I’ll call him idiotic too. Probably comes from his time in the FBI.
SPQR (26be8b) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:16 pmExplain what status I need before I’m qualified to evaluate the intelligence of a congressman’s comment.
Be specific.
Note that your defense of his comment should require this status.
BTW, when I ask a hobo claiming to be a recent vet what his MOS was, usually the dishonest ones pretend they didn’t hear me. Your entire pattern of debate here is clearly bad faith.
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:20 pmI guess I was close when I said “car pool”
Nothing wrong with serving in a supply room, an orderly room or a motor pool. I was drafted, went where they told me to, did what they told me to. Honorable discharge, college on the GI Bill, plus part-time jobs. No apologies.
I hope your son stays safe and comes back to you soon.
angeleno (ec0b60) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:25 pmI can’t believe I missed the resortings to the gross disrespect.
But do carry on.
happyfeet (760ba3) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:26 pmI think being emotionally adult would do just fine. Good night.
angeleno (ec0b60) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:28 pmt t t to the top of tha whirl I think Mr. angeleno
happyfeet (760ba3) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:32 pm““Douchey.” Thanks for that, daleyrocks, I knew I could count on you.”
angeleno – Glad I could help out. Ima giver that way.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:39 pmSpec Ops Mom – It is nice to have you here. Welcome!
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:40 pmAngeleno complaining about gross disrespect is rich.
DohBiden (15aa57) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:41 pmOh angeleno, no one said it was wrong in serving honorably in a supply room, but you seem to act as though you are on the intelligence side of things. Brother in law was Green Beret, son, special ops, brother was in Air Force car pool. Guess which one loves him some Obama? And guess which one thinks he knows more about what’s in our best interest? Give ya a hint, the one who loves him some Obama.
Bottom line, release the photos and don’t try to decide for me what you think is the best course. I mean, you didn’t have a problem in lifting the ban on the pictures of our soldiers coffins because you just knew it would justify your opposition to war, yet we can’t see what the actual pictures of war look like when our enemy is killed? Wrong answer. No if’s and’s or but’s about it.
Then to try to claim that Rogers has the high ground because he compares our brave soldiers to Osama you fail again. Serving in a office pool, no disgrace, but siding with someone who disrespects our soldiers much on the same field as Murtha, Kerry and others who have claimed our soldiers are murderers and the likes of Ghengis Khan equals a major fail.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:42 pmThe day Angeleno says anything coherent is the day pigs fly and no Roseanne Barr in a superman suit doesn’t count.
DohBiden (15aa57) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:43 pmThank you for the welcome daleyrocks.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:44 pmWelcome aboard Spec Ops Mom.
DohBiden (15aa57) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:46 pmOH angeleno and since I mentioned the ban lifted on the coffins, just where are you in the “tallying of our war dead”. Obama has lost more men in Afghanistan since he took office yet the sickos from Code Pink, Cindy Sheehan are silent. Again, this kind hypocrisy is what drove me away from the Democratic Party.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:47 pmCindy Sheehan did say Obama faked the death of Osama. At least the psycho dousche is consistent.
DohBiden (15aa57) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:48 pmThank you DohBiden, like your screen name. Thank you to everyone for the welcome.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:48 pmDoh, I actually felt sorry for Cindy for awhile, didn’t agree with her, but did feel sorry for her. She was used by the left at a very vulnerable time and then tossed away when they didn’t need her anymore. If you’ve ever been around a parent who lost their soldier, it’s horrible. But then, she decided she liked, needed the limelight and my respect and sympathy went out the door with her. She needs some serious intervention and therapy.
Spec Ops Mom (267713) — 5/4/2011 @ 8:53 pmAs I’ve said in another thread:
HE DIED IN TORA BORA.
It was deemed acceptable to leave him “alive but effectively incommunicado” until any chance of him becoming a martyr to the Islamic cause was deemed insignificant. This served “our” side as well as “theirs”. Even the Dems went along since it gave them a rather obvious dead (ahem!) horse to beat.
All this fits with the way this was handled, too.
No, I’m not going to worry about “conspiracy”, this is much more me looking at the evidence ACTUALLY available (as opposed to claims about it by people I don’t know) and seeing what seems to fit it best.
Easily, clearly, I might be wrong, but I’d make a small wager not, if someone could come up with a reliable way to actually prove me wrong (no, not likely, I grant).
This is one of those things that Really Doesn’t Matter All That Much In The Grand Scheme Of Things… but which is really, really important news… right this minute, for now,
ok, now too,
and now.
and now.
What? Osama? That’s yesterday‘s news. Have you heard about…?
IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8) — 5/4/2011 @ 10:05 pmwake up all the indian politicians thats why the AMERICANS rule the world . never mix politics into the defence matters so mr.chidambram wake up and dont say any thing abt politics into the sensitive matter abt the internal security. we all are fed of this kind of security in our country , a common man has lost faith in indian democracy, whenever some thing gone wrong all the political parties blaming each other . The security should be handled by different body as in USA
Neha (37f571) — 5/5/2011 @ 8:45 amIgotbupkis,
I’ve long been sure Osama died, very possibly at Tora Bora.
However, 80 Navy SEALs are claimed to have participated in this mission. That’s too many for the organization to conceivably not be aware of whether or not this was an authentic mission, with a few members of the chain of command also aware. These are SEALs, which are known for integrity and honor. that’s not just boilerplate ‘I like the military’ speak. These guys demanded a court martial in the name of the truth not very long ago (as daleyrocks explained to me).
Given their devotion to this country, I’m sure they know and keep many secrets, but I am also sure they wouldn’t just commit an outright fraud against this country. And given the likelihood that Panetta will be making budget cuts when the Navy in particular needs an overhaul, there’s too much incentive to expose the truth.
Marine General Edson resigned his commission to speak out to this country about his views, over a matter less significant than the US President looking American in the eye and saying that his administration orchestrated Osama’s demise.
If for no other reason, I think that is a good reason to believe this isn’t an outright fraud.
No doubt, there’s something very suspicious about the way they are handing the aftermath. Something probably is being covered up. But I don’t think the operation was a complete sham.
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/5/2011 @ 8:56 amWell stated.
And who cares what establishment knuckleheads decide to agree with this dumb decision. The same resume didnt stop the left from hating the Patriot Act that Mr Rogers helped write, so … now he’s a ‘convenient authority’? Screw that. We have administration officials sharing secret intel on the operation, telling us things we DO NOT NEED TO KNOW about the raid and the intel gathered there, tipping off the remaining terrorist. But the WH wants to control the information flow so tight we cant even have a picture to show it was Bin Laden and they conveniently disposed the body too. Its mindblowing how clueless that was.
Hypocrisy, double-talk and ‘do one thing, say another’ all around, layered on the arrogant Washington/Obama ‘we know better than the people’, topped off with the bogus ‘narrative’.
Blech. Memo to Obama: Stop doing the GZ end-zone dance with your media cronies, release the photo, move on and cut the spending already.
Barack's Clown Shoes (9e3371) — 5/5/2011 @ 9:58 amHypocritical swine.
DohBiden (15aa57) — 5/5/2011 @ 10:39 amDustin, I concur with you in general but you’re assuming that the SEALs themselves knew what was going on. I’m not saying there was no mission, nor that they didn’t kill someone who no doubt looked a lot like Osama. Really, beyond that, how would most of those men know the “inner secret” of what was happening as I would describe it? Only a couple at most would be likely to be in on it, may have been chosen specifically because of their ability to understand the sense of this compromise with/between the Truth, the Right To Know, and National Interests. Further, the mission and/or orders may have been structured to keep those not in the loop out of the Part That Mattered.
Keep in mind, here, I’m not complaining, really, about this as a “coverup” — I can see the rational sense of it on some levels, and, more critically, realize there may be inside info I’m not privy to which may make it even more necessary/desirable.
Part of it has always been my inability to accept the idea that Osama has evaded capture/killing for so long — it’s not like corruption isn’t a way of life in most parts of the world, particularly the ones Osama inhabits. So the idea that, for 10 years, he’s never come into substantial contact with someone who would rat him out for well over a million dollars (and if they’re offering that openly, then you could’ve probably gotten notably more) seems rather doubtful.
IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8) — 5/5/2011 @ 11:20 amIn politics, never assume stupidity or cluelessness when sheer, outright connivery might be the answer.
That’s not saying assume connivery is the answer, either. Just realize that the two former are often there to mask the latter.
I think that’s one of the things about the whole “Chimpy” McBushitler thing.
It kept the Left constantly underestimating him and his ability, to the point where they always assumed the real brains was Rowe or Cheney — not to suggest they aren’t sly as a fox themselves, but remember that
1) Bush was a fighter jet pilot. That’s NOT a skill for dumbasses.
2) His father rose to the head of the CIA. Not a job for the clueless or politically inept. Yeah, the son is not the father, but I’d suggest the genes are the way to bet, not the other way around.
That whole “bumbler” schtick, it worked very well to keep the Left underestimating him, and he played it up all the time, I have no doubt.
IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8) — 5/5/2011 @ 11:28 amNow its time for India Government to give a strong message to Pakistan to execute the terrorist behind 26/11.
Rosy (f8747a) — 5/7/2011 @ 2:13 am