“I would have paid more attention to it if I had had any sense of it;” Lara Logan Breaks Her Silence
[Guest post by Aaron Worthing; if you have tips, please send them here. Or by Twitter @AaronWorthing.]
About two months ago, on the night the Mubarak regime fell in Egypt, Lara Logan “suffered a brutal and sustained sexual assault and beating before being saved by a group of women and an estimated 20 Egyptian soldiers.” As I pointed out at the time, that vague description was too sparse. Well, in yesterday’s New York Times, Mrs. Logan finally spoke out about what happened and plans to talk more on 60 minutes. I had said—and received a lot of flak for saying—that we should know more than that. It even led some people to imagine I wanted a pornographic blow-by-blow when all I was looking for was to know generally what the hell happened. Like was it rape or what? I think what she says in the Times article is for the most part more than adequate and indeed harrowing. My only criticism is I would have liked to see her address the claim that the crowd kept shouting “Jew! Jew!” as they did it, either to confirm or deny it.
But what is interesting is how much this article also demonstrates that we were not being told nearly enough about this sort of thing:
Her experience in Cairo underscored the fact that female journalists often face a different kind of violence. While other forms of physical violence affecting journalists are widely covered — the traumatic brain injury ’suffered by the ABC News anchor Bob Woodruff in Iraq in 2006 was a front-page story at that time — sexual threats against women are rarely talked about within journalistic circles or in the news media.
With sexual violence, “you only have your word,” Ms. Logan said in the interview. “The physical wounds heal. You don’t carry around the evidence the way you would if you had lost your leg or your arm in Afghanistan.”
Little research has been conducted about the prevalence of sexual violence affecting journalists in conflict zones. But in the weeks following Ms. Logan’s assault, other women recounted being harassed and assaulted while working overseas, and groups like the Committee to Protect Journalists said they would revise their handbooks to better address sexual assault.
Jeff Fager, the chairman of CBS News and the executive producer of “60 Minutes,” said that the segment about the assault on Ms. Logan would raise awareness of the issue. “There’s a code of silence about it that I think is in Lara’s interest and in our interest to break,” he said.
Until now the only public comment about the assault came four days after it took place, when Ms. Logan was still in the hospital. She and Mr. Fager drafted a short statement that she had “suffered a brutal and sustained sexual assault and beating.”
That statement, Ms. Logan said, “didn’t leave me to carry the burden alone, like my dirty little secret, something that I had to be ashamed of.”
And indeed media silence on the issue might have contributed to this assault:
Before the assault, Ms. Logan said, she did not know about the levels of harassment and abuse that women in Egypt and other countries regularly experienced. “I would have paid more attention to it if I had had any sense of it,” she said. “When women are harassed and subjected to this in society, they’re denied an equal place in that society. Public spaces don’t belong to them. Men control it. It reaffirms the oppressive role of men in the society.”…
And one of the prices of that assault is the silencing of this woman, to a degree:
While Ms. Logan, CBS’s chief foreign affairs correspondent, said she would definitely return to Afghanistan and other conflict zones, she said she had decided — for the moment — not to report from the Middle Eastern countries where protests were widespread.
Of course the correct answer isn’t to be silenced but to have better protection. One bodyguard is not nearly enough, especially since the man was apparently unarmed. But at the same time, having been assaulted as she was, having genuinely and very reasonably feared for her life, I don’t blame her for being skittish.
The desire for silence was based on a number of issues. The first was the normal desire to respect her privacy. I always respected that desire, but I felt our need to know was overcome by two concerns. First, this wasn’t a private occurrence. This happened in a major public square in the capital of Egypt on a night of historic importance. Second, at some point, these “private” assaults become a matter of public concern, especially when we know that other women are contemplating whether to go to Egypt and similar countries as journalists. Don’t those women deserve a full warning so their consent to expose themselves to the danger is knowing and volulntary? Not to mention what it might say about Egyptian society and the makeup of that crowd.
The second and frankly more dubious force driving it is a desire to suppress any information that might put people who are Muslim in a bad light. Indeed, there are those who think it is bigoted to tell the truth about this sort of thing. It is true that if a person is prone to bigotry they will decide that this says something about all Muslims. But the answer isn’t to suppress the truth, but to address that wrongheaded thinking. When talking about humans, any broad-stroke statement about millions of people at once is bound to be wrong, unless it is almost or actually a tautology. Like it is probably correct to say that all Muslims believe that Mohammed was God’s greatest prophet, because that seems to be inherent in the definition of being a Muslim. But it is wrong to say that all Muslims are violent nutbags.
Indeed, what is doubly wrongheaded about that is that it assumes that her attackers were all ordinary Muslims. But as I have reported from just about the beginning of this, there were reports that just before it happened, that the Muslim Brotherhood had taken over the area. And further, if they were just ordinary Egyptians, why should we assume that all or most of them were Muslim? The country does have a sizeable Christian population. To be blunt, this all sounds more like female circumcision which is not really an Islamic belief, so much as a cultural belief that happens to exist in some areas dominated by Muslims. The two are demonstrably separate and severable.
But most of all, if the concern is to combat prejudice and discrimination, what about the prejudice and discrimination that Lara Logan and other women faced because they were women? The New York Times is convinced that there is a real problem over there with how women are treated and from what I have heard, they are probably right. All persons are created equal, but all cultures are not, and sometimes they have widespread bigotry toward one group or another and need to be reformed. We have an easy enough time saying that in the 1950’s America had a serious problem with sexism—and still does, to a degree—but for some reason it is unthinkable that another country might be similarly in need of reform. It is strange in the extreme to argue that there shouldn’t be any criticism of actual, current and horrific acts of discrimination against women because this might possibly inspire another form of discrimination toward Muslims or something down the road. Why not deal with the current problem, now, and deal with the potential problems only if they arise?
And besides in trying to keep the story from us, imaginations ran wild. In this post, for instance, I linked to a lot of different sources making different claims about what happened to Mrs. Logan. I haven’t checked the links to see if they are still live, but I remember what they said and many of those accounts were absolutely wrong. If you are terrified that people will draw the worst conclusions about Muslims or something like that, then you should have wanted the truth to come out, to give lie to the more horrific accounts going around.
In a weird way this is parallel to my feelings on Obama releasing (finally) his long-form birth certificate. The moment the truth came out, it made me wonder why it took so long for it to come out (although a two month delay for Logan’s account is much more reasonable than Obama’s stonewalling, imho). Those who believe we should not know the truth have the burden of explaining why it’s so damn important that we don’t. And I do accept many valid invocatons of secrecy. But our default should be transparency.
And certainly Ms. Logan thinks it is important, now, to tell the truth, so we can address this problem.
Hat tip: Dustin and Dana for sending this to me.
[Posted and authored by Aaron Worthing.]
Wait, she wasn’t aware of the attitudes that Muslim societies have toward their own women, not to mention the women of infidels! She’s a reporter and she was that ill informed about the society she was supposed to be reporting on?
Mike Giles (cb715b) — 4/29/2011 @ 7:38 amMike
fair point, but with rampant political correctness…
Aaron Worthing (e7d72e) — 4/29/2011 @ 7:49 amI work in the Personal Protection/Protective Services field and one of the very first things I always tell a client is that I can protect them from anything and everyone but themselves.
Meaning that if they chose to be oblivious of a risk or ignore a threat there is little I can do to keep bad things from happening to them.
I know the person who briefed the entire CBS Egyptian contingent and the females were all separately briefed on the exact risks Ms. Logan experienced. That risk is EVERYWHERE in the Middle East…
Not that anyone deserves the treatment Ms. Logan received, but if you go into the lion’s den…and she knew EXACTLY the type of den she was going into…don’t expect the lion to act like domesticated pet.
MJN1957 (d1de05) — 4/29/2011 @ 7:51 amAs a news reporter, she is a “victim” of the cool aide she dispenses.
Arizona Bob (aa856e) — 4/29/2011 @ 8:16 amOr is it Kool Aid.
Arizona Bob (aa856e) — 4/29/2011 @ 8:16 am“If you are terrified that people will draw the worst conclusions about Muslims or something like that, then you should have wanted the truth to come out, to give lie to the more horrific accounts going around.”
A.W. – Isn’t fear of the truth coming out the exact reason why Holder and Obama quashed the trials of CAIR and the other unindicted coconspirators from the Holy Land Foundation trial for financing terrorist organizations?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 4/29/2011 @ 8:33 amYou realize Aaron, that those who regularly accuse you of Islam-bashing will twist this into one of those expositions as well, don’t you?
I personally believe they are sorely mistaken, and Ms. Logan’s experience, among other things, highlights one of the consequences of excessive political corectness-whether willful or unintended.
You need to know what you’re dealing with to be truly prepared…
My Regards
Bob Reed (5f2db5) — 4/29/2011 @ 8:35 amAnother thing that should be factored in is not just the religious and cultural values of the crowd, but the fact that it was a crowd.
People think and behave differently in large crowd situations where the sense of anonymity is increased. This had several ingredients that made it even worse than usual. First, of course, the cultural factors of a lower respect for women. Add in the cultural factor of a lower respect for non-Muslim foreigners, and especially Americans. Add to that the crowd was mostly male, in a culture in which men are revered for toughness and dominance. Multiply that by the fact that this enormous crowd had already been through a number of violent confrontations, lots of people had gotten used to pushing and shoving, throwing things, and assaulting the enemy.
Now bring in a very attractive foreign female. A LONE female (her male escorts are less easy to distinguish from all the crowd – but her only-woman-in-sight situation would be immediately visible).
NONE of this is intended to excuse the actions of the crowd – quite the opposite. These men needed to be severely dealt with, and that right away, on the scene. Some heads needed to be cracked. But all of this happened – and could have been expected to happen – precisely because it was obvious that there was not going to be anyone there to stop them.
Frankly, I am amazed that women reporters have not been victims of much greater violence than this. It is a gas can and a match. But then… maybe they have and we were never told.
In which case, don’t those who refused to report these incidents bear some of the responsibility?
Gesundheit (d7ea47) — 4/29/2011 @ 8:38 amI don’t think Ms. Logan’s experience is fraught with meaning you should be careful around strange mens during revolutions I don’t care who you are and no means no
happyfeet (760ba3) — 4/29/2011 @ 8:38 amMr. Feets – I missed the memo that revolution is a code word for sexual assault. Nobody tells me anything.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 4/29/2011 @ 8:56 amit’s a code word for caution I think
happyfeet (760ba3) — 4/29/2011 @ 8:59 amWhat I don’t get is the mentality of that crowd attach on Logan. Put yourself in their shoes for a moment, and think about this question:
Why attack a journalist? You’re a mob pissed-off citizens finally about to break the grip of Mubarrak’s rule, and the one thing you really want to do is to…..sexually assault a female journalist that is trying to get your story out to the world?
WTF is wrong with those people?
Try to picture the same scenario happening in another part (non-Islamic) of the world. In your mind, would you even have to think about something like this happening?
The real symptom of this attack can be placed squarely on the bass-ackwardness of the Islamic culture and how they deal with women. It’s a real problem, and I don’t think we’re going to get to any answers unless people start addressing this issue.
EC (dda60e) — 4/29/2011 @ 9:04 amMy thoughts and prayers go out to Ms. Logan.I was appalled as anyone else when this event happened and at the time, when the story broke, all I could keep asking myself is why, on God’s green Earth was this woman in that crowd to begin with.
Now it seems Ms. Logan may be lining up a lawsuit of some kind when she comments about how nobody told her of that kind of imminent danger.This come off as her being a victim of someone else’s poor judgment other than her own.
It almost seems that some of these reporters are actually buying their own prefabricated story lines that literally end up putting their lives in danger.I mean this in only the most honest way, did any foreign reporter, let alone a female reporter actually believe their bunk, that many of most people could plainly see that is was not a “Democracy Now” movement, it was the typical, standard issue changing of the Dictatorial guard that quite frankly lead to a more dangerous Egypt.
Good luck to Ms. Logan but if she is fishing for a lawsuit, I for one, hope she doesn’t profit from her own bad judgement.
justavoter (b003e1) — 4/29/2011 @ 9:19 amGreetings:
But then again, there’s that troubling bit in the Muslim holy book about their presumed prophet telling his raiders that they were entitled to as many infidel women as their right hands could possess. Nothing to burn there.
11B40 (06b150) — 4/29/2011 @ 9:21 amI am quite certain that Logan has spent the last
10 years of her career mouthing the appropriate
multicultural platitudes that the rest of her
fellow
travelersjournalist havebeen mouthing.
I feel for her, but it also serves her right. My
guess is that she supports a woman’s right to
wear a burka more than she does a woman’s right
to choose not to.
It’s
sort ofexactly like homosexual groups supportingPalestinian rights, unaware that homosexuals who
“come out” in Palestine end up dead if the don’t
flee to Israel.
Why not look through Logan’s opus and discover
Jack (f9fe53) — 4/29/2011 @ 9:43 amher views on Islam and Muslims? Bet you $10.00
bucks that she is a staunch advocate of Islam being a religion of Peace and how Muslims are
victims of Islamophobia. Bet you she’s done
a few “Muslims fear backlash” for the bombing
stories.
Bob
well obviously that is right. some people are fact-immune. i mean when firedoglake went after me, some people said they didn’t have to read my post–they just assumed his bull about me was true. how do you deal with people like that?
but i think most people are susceptible to persuasion if you have the truth on yourside. I wouldn’t be a small D democrat if i didn’t believe that.
Aaron Worthing (e7d72e) — 4/29/2011 @ 9:55 amFiredoglake? Manbearpig.
JD (0d01eb) — 4/29/2011 @ 9:59 amOK, lets back away from the issue of Islam for a little bit. There’s another little cultural blind spot at work here.
Mobs are not civilized. Any mobs. Anywhere. Mobs that start out with the most admirable of intentions quickly careen off course and do things that make no goddamned sense..
For a long time in this country (and not only in the U.S., but I know this country best) we have pretended that large bunches of hysterically emotional protesters are not a mob. We have ignored it so devotedly that we have, for instance, managed to forget that at Kent State protesters had set fire to a building and interfered with firefighters on the scene. We pretend that there was no reason to send in the National Guard, whereas in fact the Mob had already done something lethally dangerous. Only shear dumb luck kept that fire from spreading all over campus and into the town, killing hundreds.
This reporter not only had been conditioned by her politics to ignore the dangers of the third world’s attitude toward women, she had been conditioned to treat a mob as if it were still made up of rational individuals. A mob has lusts, but no reason.
C. S. P. Schofield (8b1968) — 4/29/2011 @ 10:01 amI call them Fire Hydrant Lake, specially in light of Hamsher’s acts of civility, like photoshopping
narciso (79ddc3) — 4/29/2011 @ 10:04 amLieberman in ‘blackface’
CSP and Gesundheit are right to note that some of this is just the insanity of a mob. i won’t say its JUST mob mentality, but obviously that is an element.
Aaron Worthing (e7d72e) — 4/29/2011 @ 10:17 am“I call them Fire Hydrant Lake”
narciso – I go with Racist Dog Fakes for much the same reason.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 4/29/2011 @ 10:28 amMJN, I spent 20 years in the Navy, after 9/11 working in the field of force protection for several years. I don’t know what your experience has been, but my little experience in dealing with the media leads me to suspect she may not have believed or at least downplayed what she was told given her long indoctrination in what passed for conventional wisdom among her colleagues. Also known as ignorance-in-circulation.
Interesting point about the lion’s den. In March a 46YO German actress was killed in Namibia by what a leopard “not previously thought dangerous” when it “unexpectedly” ripped out her throat during a TV shoot. The German/Namibian ranch owner had told her that the leopard was tame. Animal Planet and other nature shows have been telling her all her life that leopards aren’t really dangerous.
I doubt a briefing could undo that. She walked into the leopard’s den, maybe not expecting the leopard to act like Persian cat, but expecting to act according to the not-really-dangerous nature she’d been led to believe is the natural state of leopards.
Steve (95c09f) — 4/29/2011 @ 10:37 amI can give you a precis of Logan’s legal brief
right now:
“They didn’t tell me loud enough.”
Jack (f9fe53) — 4/29/2011 @ 10:42 amhere is a piece from the National Soros Radio ombudshoochie about the NPR propaganda whores getting very very upset about the commentings when this was first reported…
According to the ombudshoochie, National Soros Radio management seized on the comments about Lara’s assault as an opportunity to begin aggressively censoring comments on their site and were inspired to investigate disallowing anonymous commentings.
happyfeet (a55ba0) — 4/29/2011 @ 10:57 amThat’s because only the USA is sexist/racist/bigoted/… All other cultures live harmoniously with nature and other people. /sarc It’s the self hatred of the left.
Tanny O'Haley (12193c) — 4/29/2011 @ 11:13 amRe: leopards, I remember the day a dingo took Azaria Chamberlain, and how the usual suspects refused to believe her mother that this could have happened. The local Aborigines readily confirmed that dingos take babies whenever they get a chance, but the animal-lovers (= human-haters) refused to listen, and poor Lindy Chamberlain lost her freedom and her marriage.
Milhouse (ea66e3) — 4/29/2011 @ 11:14 am“she did not know about the levels of harassment and abuse that women in Egypt and other countries regularly experienced.”
Why are _news_ reporters always the last to know?
gp (72be5d) — 4/29/2011 @ 11:17 amTanny O’Haley, as bad as the US might have been in the 1950’s regarding women’s rights, I’m fairly sure that a similar angry crowd would take that opportunity to rape a woman. Beat her? possibly (but I doubt it.) I personally do not have a problem bashing Muslims. They are the followers of the AntiChrist if you ask me and every one of Mohammed’s teachings leads back to evil incarnate.
Rorschach (c5574d) — 4/29/2011 @ 11:26 am“she did not know about the levels of harassment and abuse that women in Egypt and other countries regularly experienced.”
Sounds like complete CYA bulldookey for somebody of Lara’s experience.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 4/29/2011 @ 11:29 amexcuse me that was supposed to be “would NOT take that opportunity…”
Rorschach (c5574d) — 4/29/2011 @ 11:33 ammuslims are not followers of the antichrist they make tasty kebab and also they like soccer
happyfeet (a55ba0) — 4/29/2011 @ 11:50 am“Why are _news_ reporters always the last to know?”
Because most of them are just like her:
Morals of an alley cat
Brain of a sea urchin
Dave Surls (da9e80) — 4/29/2011 @ 11:55 amHappy, I’m not interested in eating them. cannibalism isn’t my thing.
Rorschach (c5574d) — 4/29/2011 @ 12:21 pmAnd soccer is for wimps who can’t play real football.
Entirely correct. The vast majority are chicken sh** crap weasels far too cowardly to stand up to those violent SOBs who besmirch Islam as a whole, and would gladly do anything they had to to keep the violent SOBs looking at other people, including send the entire religion down the sewer hole.
In this, they have much in common with the French.
— PSBUH (Pig Sh** Be Upon Him)
PSBUH (c9dcd8) — 4/29/2011 @ 12:25 pmI used to think the same way Mr. Rorschach and then one time I went to Anaheim and there was this boat and we all got on the boat and we floated through many fantastical and wondrous rooms what deeply impressed upon us how there are many many different peoples and cultures in our world but in the end we are more alike than we are different cause of there’s so much that we share and it’s time we’re aware. They taught us a song to sing for to help us remember. Then we had candied apples.
happyfeet (a55ba0) — 4/29/2011 @ 12:28 pm“In this, they have much in common with the French.”
Man…talk about a low blow.
Dave Surls (da9e80) — 4/29/2011 @ 12:34 pmYou remind me of Juliet Prowse (Prowse’s injuries were much more severe than the article suggests, with 20 stitches needed to reattach her ear).
Prowse was always facinated by big cats, which she kept as pets. Because, y’know, they really aren’t all that dangerous if you just treat them right…
It’s not like they are, you know, wild animals or anything, or as though the domesticated varieties of animals have gone through, like, hundreds of generations of weeding out their feral qualities.
…Nawwwwwwwwww….
IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8) — 4/29/2011 @ 12:39 pmLet’s not forget that Lara was saved. Some people risked their lives for her (I believe). Some of them were women, actually, so they risked more than that.
And I think those people were Muslims.
that’s what makes this so frustrating. It would be a lot simpler if Muslims were dumb animals, or none of them showed defiance to radicals.
But the truth is that there are defiant arabs and egyptions and persians, and we should back them up as much as we can.
Mubarak, for example, is defiant against much radicalism in Islam. Those women who pulled Lara from a future gang raping were as well.
We need green berets to start training women in the middle east. Just overtly make it a war to reform Islam. It’s definitely not a conflict we can avoid.
Dustin (c16eca) — 4/29/2011 @ 12:54 pmNot exactly. They’re the last to BELIEVE.
In a sense, that’s the same thing as know vs. KNOW… y’know?
Yes, but unfortunately SO true…
IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8) — 4/29/2011 @ 1:03 pmSome thoughts:
Mrs.[?] Logan finally spoke out about what happened and plans to talk more on 60 minutes.
— And of course “finally” implies that this was a long overdue public accounting . . . the ‘people’s right to know,’ and all that.
I had said—and received a lot of flak for saying—that we should know more than that.
— You’re welcome. It’s not about you, or us; it’s about her.
It even led some people to imagine I wanted a pornographic blow-by-blow when all I was looking for was to know generally what the hell happened. Like was it rape or what?
— In my case I said “prurient interest”. Given what you just wrote (“was it rape or what?”) it seems to me a distinction without a difference.
having been assaulted as she was, having genuinely and very reasonably feared for her life, I don’t blame her for being skittish.
— Magnanimity, thy name is Aaron Worthing.
The desire for silence was based on a number of issues. The first was the normal desire to respect her privacy. I always respected that desire, but I felt our need to know was overcome by two concerns.
— (Fighting back inclination to play grammar police on that last sentence) Hate to sound black & white here, but either you respect it or you come up with an excuse not to.
First, this wasn’t a private occurrence. This happened in a major public square in the capital of Egypt on a night of historic importance.
— If it had happened in private, say in her hotel room on the same night & time, with the same terse announcement form CBS, you would have reacted differently? Excuse my skepticism, but I’m doubtful.
Second, at some point, these “private” assaults become a matter of public concern, especially when we know that other women are contemplating whether to go to Egypt and similar countries as journalists.
— In this sense all crimes, especially those of a violent nature, are matters of public concern. Also of public concern: the privacy and emotional well-being of the victims.
Don’t those women deserve a full warning so their consent to expose themselves to the danger is knowing and volulntary? Not to mention what it might say about Egyptian society and the makeup of that crowd.
— This is hardly ‘news’ for those that diligently do their research. And again, the initial statement said (as YOU quoted above) “a brutal and sustained sexual assault”. Is there ANY possibility that any REASONABLE person reading that would come to ANY conclusion other than that of extreme potential danger for western female journalists?
The second and frankly more dubious force driving it is a desire to suppress any information that might put people who are Muslim in a bad light.
— And while I will be the very last person to deny that this takes place within journalistic circles, where is your proof of that the case in this instance? Are you trying to divine intent? I think we know from our discussions of ‘intent’ when it comes to legislation (as well as in the case of “hate crimes”) that this is a losing proposition from the word Go. Also, you’re presenting this in a way that makes it seem like anything less than full disclosure is akin to a politically correct cover-up. And, as Dick Cheney among others would tell you, that’s not fair.
If you are terrified that people will draw the worst conclusions about Muslims or something like that, then you should have wanted the truth to come out, to give lie to the more horrific accounts going around.
— If you’re expecting Lara Logan to reveal having positively identified her attackers as members of the Muslim Brotherhood (chanted a Brotherhood slogan, special tattoos . . . secret handshake?) then I suspect that you are going to be sorely disappointed.
Those who believe we should not know the truth have the burden of explaining why it’s so damn important that we don’t.
— As I’ve said from the beginning, how much more “truth” do you need? How close to that “blow-by-blow” description do we need to get? Ya know, it’s as if Lara Logan uttering the word “RAPE!” makes all of the difference in this case to you. Well guess what? IT DOESN’T!!!
And I do accept many valid invocatons of secrecy.
— Hence, my reference to Vice-President Cheney.
But our default should be transparency.
— And by “our” you mean society in general? society’s expectations of journalists? anyone that is any kind of “public figure”? anything that happens in any public square anywhere?
And certainly Ms. Logan thinks it is important, now, to tell the truth, so we can address this problem.
Icy Texan (5eba0d) — 4/29/2011 @ 1:27 pm— Thank you for so patiently giving her time to sufficiently heal before doing so.
“Mrs. Logan finally spoke out about what happened and plans to talk more on 60 minutes. I had said—and received a lot of flak for saying—that we should know more than that. It even led some people to imagine I wanted a pornographic blow-by-blow when all I was looking for was to know generally what the hell happened. ”
Is that really how you remember it, Sir? I think you were demanding a bit more detail.
“#47-we should frankly know the full nature of the attack. we deserve to have full information about the nature of this protest movement.”
Comment by Aaron Worthing — 2/15/2011 @ 9:33 pm
__________________________________________
“Update: The WSJ says that it was “not a rape.” Which is only moderately helpful because we are not sure what they mean by rape. There are several things you can do to a woman that would be legally considered rape, but only sometimes called rape in common discussion.”
“CBS still has refused to provide more details, and I call on them to tell the entire story. Privacy be damned, this happened on a public street in the middle of an event of global significance and will offer us insight into an important protest movement.” —2/16 “Jew,Jew” update.
“Still, CBS News should release all the facts and then let us sort it out on how much it reflects on the movement as a whole.”
Machinist (b6f7da) — 4/29/2011 @ 1:32 pmIcy Texan, it does appear that Lara Logan agreed with Aaron that this is something the people should learn more about.
I don’t mind that she waited, but it was newsworthy and it’s a good thing she spoke up.
“I think you were demanding a bit more detail.”
What detail do you think aaron wanted that we don’t now have? She described the full nature of the attack to my satisfaction, anyway. I’m not sure what you people think Aaron wanted… some kind of graphic depiction? I think that he was asking for basically what Lara wanted to tell us.
Dustin (c16eca) — 4/29/2011 @ 1:38 pmI think she has the right to decide what details are released and when. I took exception to Aaron’s demand for more details on his terms.
He indicated he not only wanted to know if she was raped but what was done so he could decide if it was legally rape or rape “in common discussion”. That sounds rather detailed to me and not his to demand.
Aaron can demand whatever he wants and he can show his respect for her privacy with “Privacy be damned…” but I resent the mischaracterization of the objections at the time.
“all I was looking for was to know generally what the hell happened.” is not honest.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 4/29/2011 @ 1:47 pmIf Aaron feels he was right then he should stand by his position at the time, that she had no right to privacy and owed him full details of what was done to her. If he lacks that then he should leave it and not try to blame the people who called him on it at the time.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 4/29/2011 @ 1:51 pmIcy
> And of course “finally” implies that this was a long overdue public accounting
Yes, absolutely. We should have gained this level of knowledge the first week.
> It’s not about you, or us; it’s about her.
I can’t avoid the subject of the previous controversy.
> In my case I said “prurient interest”. Given what you just wrote (“was it rape or what?”) it seems to me a distinction without a difference.
Go and listen to some of the falsely reported accounts and tell me whether it makes a difference.
I know if they were tried and sentenced for what they did, the judge would think it makes a difference.
> Magnanimity, thy name is Aaron Worthing.
Sorry to lose my cool, but f— off. I am allowed to have an opinion on journalism being terrified into silence.
> Hate to sound black & white here, but either you respect it or you come up with an excuse not to.
Lol you remind me of George Costanza saying he would absolutely never give out his ATM pin number and then had to give it away literally to save a man’s life. Most people recognize that these values should give way when a sufficient countervailing interest arises.
For instance, very few people seriously object to us knowing the name of the woman who accused those duke lacrosse players of rape, because its pretty obvious now she was lying.
> If it had happened in private, say in her hotel room
It is uniquely ridiculous to pretend that what happened in that public square is just a matter between her and the 2-300 guys who assaulted her. Its bizarre to even pretend that such a public occurrence was a matter of privacy.
> In this sense all crimes, especially those of a violent nature, are matters of public concern.
Absolutely.
> Also of public concern: the privacy and emotional well-being of the victims.
And you want to act like it is the only concern and not 1) punishing the offenders, 2) warning future potential victims, and 3) helping people to recognize that there is a problem in a society so it might reform.
> This is hardly ‘news’ for those that diligently do their research.
So Logan is wrong to think that women need to know about this?
> Is there ANY possibility that any REASONABLE person reading that would come to ANY conclusion other than that of extreme potential danger for western female journalists?
Extreme danger? Yes. Given the vagueness of the initial report, yes.
> And while I will be the very last person to deny that this takes place within journalistic circles, where is your proof of that the case in this instance?
Have you read all the comments?
> If you’re expecting Lara Logan to reveal
Go listen to and read the many now obviously false accounts of what happened to her. Seriously, they were claiming violence much worse than she said happened to her.
> As I’ve said from the beginning, how much more “truth” do you need?
Read the post again and you will have your answer.
> And by “our” you mean society in general? society’s expectations of journalists? anyone that is any kind of “public figure”? anything that happens in any public square anywhere?
All of the above.
> Thank you for so patiently giving her time to sufficiently heal before doing so.
See, you keep thinking she is the only person who could have filled us in. no, I didn’t expect her to crawl out of her hospital bed and hold a press conference. But I did expect CBS to report the news rather than covering it up.
If it was left up to them, we might never have learned about this at all. although logan now seems to indicate that SHE would have talked about it on her own.
Aaron Worthing (e7d72e) — 4/29/2011 @ 1:52 pmThis situation in Cairo reminds me strongly about how, due to the suppression of actual stats on sexual assaults on campus, a Federal law was written requiring the publication of such numbers, and how the Ed-Establishment cooks the books to continually hide the numbers, and then acts astonished when hauled into court to defend themselves for fraud, and other purposes.
PC is a deadly disease, and the only innoculation is Truth!
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 4/29/2011 @ 1:58 pmmachinest
> If Aaron feels he was right then he should stand by his position at the time, that she had no right to privacy and owed him full details of what was done to her. If he lacks that then he should leave it and not try to blame the people who called him on it at the time.
i didn’t change my mind or my position. With the exception of the fact they didn’t address the allegation that the crowd was shouting anti-semitic crap as they did it, this is what i had in mind all along.
Too many people were too quick to assume i wanted much more and to ascribe to me the most deviant motives for saying it.
Aaron Worthing (e7d72e) — 4/29/2011 @ 2:01 pmI’d like to see anyone quote Aaron demanding some kind of deviant detail, or insisting Lara has “no right to privacy”, rather than Aaron asking for the news about this event, which strikes me as well short of Lara losing all privacy.
Dustin (c16eca) — 4/29/2011 @ 2:11 pm“…the most deviant motives…”
Through the magic of “Minority Report”, we all know what a corrupt kinko you are.
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 4/29/2011 @ 2:24 pm38.Let’s not forget that Lara was saved. Some people risked their lives for her (I believe). Some of them were women, actually, so they risked more than that. And I think those people were Muslims
But what happened to those women? Have they been seen since? Maybe a little stone throwing was conducted to teach them a lesson.
Arizona Bob (7d2a2c) — 4/29/2011 @ 2:27 pmYeah, I feel very sorry for them no matter what happened to them. They deserve better than the world they wake up to every day.
We should give them M-16s and guerrilla tactics.
Dustin (c16eca) — 4/29/2011 @ 2:36 pmComment by Dustin — 4/29/2011 @ 2:36 pm
Perhaps we should be diverting M-16’s that are intended for the Mexican Army.
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 4/29/2011 @ 2:49 pmAt least we could think that “our” divertees would put them to a better use than the Mex-Army’s divertees.
AD for Defense Secretary!
Dustin (c16eca) — 4/29/2011 @ 3:00 pmIt would take more than just a change at the top at DoD to correct the mess we’ve found ourselves in vis-a-vis the Mexican Cartels, and IslamoFascists everywhere; the entire “conventional wisdom” (or is that Potomic Fever) would have to get its’ “head right”.
Twenty years or so ago, I advocated for actual testing of the so-called Neutron Bomb (with Ground Zero as the Washington Monument) and I haven’t really been dissuaded from that position after all this time.
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 4/29/2011 @ 3:08 pmAD for Illuminati Chancellor!
Dustin (c16eca) — 4/29/2011 @ 3:10 pmNo! Please.
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 4/29/2011 @ 3:14 pmI’m a disciple of the Great Greta Garbo:
I want to be alone!
You must serve!
Like Paul Ryan. I don’t care if he doesn’t want to be president anymore.
Dustin (c16eca) — 4/29/2011 @ 3:16 pmEric to call Lara Logan a neonazi waaaaaaacist in 5….4…3..2…1…
DohBiden (15aa57) — 4/29/2011 @ 3:16 pmcomment #15: >I feel for her, but it also serves her right.
you are a monster
ed zeppelin (2d8e89) — 4/29/2011 @ 3:18 pmShe,through her denial of reality, may have contributed to her travail, but no-one “deserves” it.
AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92) — 4/29/2011 @ 3:32 pmI’m with ed, the comment at #15 was completely inappropriate.
If he thinks she deserved it then that’s his opinion.
I am not aghast or appalled or affronted and I would submit that nobody else need be either plus it’s Friday afternoon, which, this is very exciting.
happyfeet (a55ba0) — 4/29/2011 @ 3:40 pmHer lack of awareness about how women are treated in the Islamic world is unbelievable. she is supposed to be a smart intelligent reporter and she is unaware that over the last 30 years or so Eqyptian women have slowly started adopting the veil so as to avoid harassment.
and as for her blaming all men give me a break. i seriously doubt that Coptic Christian men were involved in her rape.
Reporters like her should take remedial journalism classes and be forced to take off their rose colored glasses
PeterK (f11657) — 4/29/2011 @ 3:53 pm“she is supposed to be a smart intelligent reporter”
She’s a congenital idiot who causes trouble wherever she goes.
And, then trouble finally jumped up and bit her on the ass.
Nothing unusual about that. That’s the way things usually work out in the long run.
Dave Surls (7edf89) — 4/29/2011 @ 4:30 pm#48- “I’d like to see anyone quote Aaron demanding some kind of deviant detail, or insisting Lara has “no right to privacy”, rather than Aaron asking for the news about this event, which strikes me as well short of Lara losing all privacy.
Comment by Dustin — 4/29/2011 @ 2:11 pm”
—Dustin, with respect Sir, I think I did, though I did not mention “deviant”. Who said that?
“Privacy be damned”
—How does this not call for a loss of her privacy? Who’s privacy was he referring to if not hers?
“Update: The WSJ says that it was “not a rape.” Which is only moderately helpful because we are not sure what they mean by rape. There are several things you can do to a woman that would be legally considered rape, but only sometimes called rape in common discussion.”
—What details is he asking for if not details of what was done to her. She had every right to share what she wished. I am saying that he had no right to demand the information at that time. Saying he wanted the network to give the details is still demanding details that are not his to demand, he was just saying the network should violate her again. He can claim he did not demand details but his own words are hard to reconcile with that.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 4/29/2011 @ 4:31 pmmachinest
> What details is he asking for if not details of what was done to her.
how about… the details she just revealed. duh.
Aaron Worthing (73a7ea) — 4/29/2011 @ 4:40 pmOh and machinest, why don’t you quote the whole “privacy be damned” line?
> “privacy be damned, this happened on a public street in the middle of an event of global significance and will offer us insight into an important protest movement.”
Which is less conciliatory than what i wrote today, but its essentially the same thing. “This right can give way because…”
Aaron Worthing (73a7ea) — 4/29/2011 @ 4:45 pmI did quote the whole thing in my first comment #41 along with the post and date it was from.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 4/29/2011 @ 4:52 pm“she did not know about the levels of harassment and abuse that women in Egypt and other countries regularly experienced.”
I think this speaks to a broader point. How is it that I, a non-journalist who has never been a reporter in any part of the world, is well aware of the abuse women in the ME regularly experience, and she isn’t?
She has insulated herself with the familiarity of the MSM, whether print media, colleagues and the people she personally interacts with.
There are untold numbers of websites that regularly record abuses towards women in that part of the world that one can avail themselves of if they want to become informed. It is not a secret, it is discussed in open forums and the information/stats are clearly there for anyone curious enough to look, and open minded enough to accept.
I suspect Ms. Logan’s lack of awareness is the result of not wishing to step out from her MSM comfort zone where it is fashionable to tread lightly when dealing with that part of the world, lest we offend. This again speaks to the absurdity of the progressives: no matter the cost, don’t point out the truth and remain in passive submission. Denial and distraction is the name of the game – anything but honestly naming the it for what it is – a culturally accepted and encouraged misogyny.
We’re so pitifully lost in this abyss of political correctness that even a seasoned journalist claims to have known nothing about the habitual and horrendous treatment of women by men in 1/3 of the world. Absolutely stunning.
Dana (4eca6e) — 4/29/2011 @ 5:15 pmTrue in essence but disingenuous on the whole.
Given the size of Islam — roughly ONE BILLION people — and the purportedly small percentage which hold these extremist views — We’re told as little as 1%, or about 100k — Then there should be substantial protests made by ISLAMIC people everywhere whenever another Islamic atrocity takes place.
Whenever a girl is sentenced to death for being raped by a man
Whenever a filmmaker is killed for making a film about Islam
Whenever an embassy is attacked for images that actually were never a part of the things that supposedly offended the attackers
Whenever threats are made by Islamofascists to a brave individual such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, or Geert Wilders
Whenever a cadre of schoolgirls dies because they are attempting to escape a burning building but don’t have their headdresses on
Whenever an Islamofascist opens fire in a public place killing innocent people
… when any of these, and numerous other things happen, then there should be large scale visible protests around the world…
That is IF the people who actually reject these actions are even vaguely serious about their religion’s greatly tarnished image becoming a clear depiction of barbaric and blatantly uncivilized memes, utterly and completely incompatible with any other memes of civilizations on the planet.
That is, IF the people who actually reject these actions aren’t even more cowardly than the French.
That is, IF the people who supposedly reject Islamofascism AREN’T actually the ones in the true minority.
Given the almost absolute LACK of protest, one is left to wonder just how large a proportion of Islam these “moderate” Muslims actually are.
Perhaps THEY are the 1% group, and not the fanatics…?
IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8) — 4/29/2011 @ 5:27 pmWouldn’t 1% be 10 million?
Machinist (b6f7da) — 4/29/2011 @ 5:33 pmNo culture or behavior is inherently bad. While we should condemn what happened to Lara Logan we should not condemn Egyptian culture and society. Instead we should seek to understand the root causes of the behavior of the people that night.
/spit – me wearing my stupid liberal multi-culti hat.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 4/29/2011 @ 7:45 pmgeesh, daley, I was just about to fire a mean high heel straight at you.
Dana (4eca6e) — 4/29/2011 @ 7:49 pmDana – Don’t do that, I’m working in the kitchen. You want a sammich?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 4/29/2011 @ 8:02 pm“geesh, daley, I was just about to fire a mean high heel straight at you.”
Me too…but, I didn’t want to ruin my best pair of pumps.
Dave Surls (d82ff3) — 4/29/2011 @ 8:36 pm“she did not know about the levels of harassment and abuse…”
Huh.
Guess she’s never interviewed a blonde schoolgirl in Malmo.
If there are any left.
d. in c. (1e48bc) — 4/29/2011 @ 9:04 pmMachinist,
OK, I see where you’re coming from.
My read on that is that Aaron was saying that he doesn’t accept the argument that privacy is enough to shut down learning what happened in any reasonable detail, rather than saying there is no privacy interest whatsoever, so we should learn every nasty detail.
But Aaron expressed that with hyperbole, and I understand your interpretation (Even though I think Aaron’s cleared it up since then).
Dustin (c16eca) — 4/29/2011 @ 9:30 pmThank you Dustin.
Machinist (b6f7da) — 4/29/2011 @ 10:10 pmEven when Machinist disagrees with you, he is kind, proper, and honorable.
JD (318f81) — 4/29/2011 @ 10:27 pmTanks dustin for clearing it up.
DohBiden (15aa57) — 4/29/2011 @ 10:27 pmThanks*
DohBiden (15aa57) — 4/29/2011 @ 10:29 pmI must concur with IgotBupkis @ # 69. Absent strong and loud protests by the so-called “moderate” adherents of the “religion of peace,” which have not been generally forthcoming, how can we reach any conclusion but that most of them condone it? Silence is assent.
Estragon (ec6a4b) — 4/30/2011 @ 12:00 amHer book deal is to be announced!
contents how she did not appreciate the multiple fingers being applied to her flesh, but some how still found it exciting, in a way.
Last chapter she will be felating Islam for allowing her to serve them.
RRR (e96440) — 4/30/2011 @ 12:20 amDustin wrote:
42. Icy Texan, it does appear that Lara Logan agreed with Aaron that this is something the people should learn more about.
— Unlike Aaron, I never had any intention of telling Lara Logan when or if she should tell her story. I said from the beginning that it was up to her. My problem with Aaron was in his insistence that she owed the world an accounting of her attack in short order. And I applaud her bravery in doing so now.
I don’t mind that she waited, but it was newsworthy and it’s a good thing she spoke up.
Icy Texan (5eba0d) — 4/30/2011 @ 2:13 am— I too hope that it will be a good thing, and that her healing process will not be adversely affected by the increased attention she will be receiving.
Nonetheless, Lara wanted the world to know the things Aaron wanted them to know.
And there’s a good reason for that. It’s terrible that sexual victims will be exposed to attention they don’t want if their stories are well known, but this particular case warranted the bravery you’re right to applaud.
Anyway, Aaron places a different priority than you do on privacy, and I think there is some vagueness over what degree of privacy we’re talking about at all. Anyway, I don’t really see the point of speaking for Aaron.
I thought at the time that it was a very important event, and if CBS (or whatever her network is) told us a journalist was grabbed by hundreds of men and assaulted sexually by hand, that would be sufficient information about a newsworthy protest.
I hope that too, but there are a lot of women assaulted in Egypt, and I hope fewer of them have to go through the healing process. Lara spoke out because she wanted to raise awareness about a shameful thing. I know this is unlikely, but hopefully it’s possible to shame some of these bastards, or outrage the women, or politically motivate some of the organizers to clean up the act via fatwahs or whatever they call their party orders.
Long story short: it’s a problem that needs more than silence, with more victims than Lara.
Dustin (c16eca) — 4/30/2011 @ 3:27 amJust to go over the original story. She was repeatedly turned back/brought back to her hotel by the egyptian police and told it was not safe.
J (2946f2) — 4/30/2011 @ 5:51 amBeing clever, she evaded them and waded in. Alone on the globe, she is the ONLY person who does not know how muslim women are treated in a muslim society. The full-body coverings, laws that make women property of men, etc…..knew none of this. Back to original story…..she is attacked, and the egyptian police/military save her.
NOW we have a group of women that live in a country where they are serially abused and allowed no power, rise up and save her? The part about being sent back, repeatedly, to a safe hotel…scrubbed?
They/she should have done a better job concocting this fictional event…..I’m not buying it.
Sorry Lara, you are a reporter, with sources far and wide and you didn’t know how women are treated when they get “Uppity” in the Arab world. Foolish Person. Read your own press. Google “honor killings” Or cultivate Frence contacts who will talk honestly about certain lines of the Paris metro.
glenn (2a84e9) — 4/30/2011 @ 8:09 amAaron Worthing is nauseatingly callous. This post is a near perfect example of the degenerate, discredited right.
Joel MaHarry (d2d442) — 5/2/2011 @ 10:41 pmAnd your nauseatingly retarded. That comment is a near perfect example why leftyism is a mental disorder.
DohBiden (15aa57) — 5/2/2011 @ 11:09 pmOur old friend Joel MaHarry returns, like a turd that floats to the surface of the pond.
Patterico (c218bd) — 5/2/2011 @ 11:19 pmOn cue, as if determined to validate the fact that one of our political parties has become completely, demonstrably degenerate, Patterico delivers his scatalogical bon mot.
Thanks for that. In a way it’s reassuring to see your online sewer has only grown more fetid over the past few years. And, heartening to see you’ve released fresh bacteria spore into the ecosystem. Aaron Worthing has so little reputation or regard for other people that he’s able to mouth the indecencies and lies you only insinuate.
I’d love to see how you deport yourself a rape case. Clearly, you side with your mouthpiece and commenters in the view that Laura Logan is a stupid woman reporter/media whore who had it coming.
Joel MaHarry (d2d442) — 5/3/2011 @ 2:07 pmYou really are vile to claim that’s what Aaron said. Perhaps you never even read his post. I hope so, because just randomly assuming the worst of Aaron’s post is better than knowing he expresses concern for her privacy, while then explaining how he has another issue he prioritizes in a way that causes him to ask for some exposure of what happened in this protest.
He even goes to some trouble explaining that the reason for this is that many other rape victims are not known.
But no, you just came here to show how much you hate people, regardless of what they actually said.
Dustin (c16eca) — 5/3/2011 @ 2:11 pm“I feel for her, but it also serves her right.”
Aptly sums up the view on the Limabaugh Degenerate Right.
Joel MaHarry (d2d442) — 5/3/2011 @ 2:30 pmAptly sums up the view on the limbaugh denegrate right.
We had a sleeper cell or what?
DohBiden (15aa57) — 5/3/2011 @ 2:38 pmthat be good trolling.
yeah, one person said something bad. they are like totally representative. *rolls eyes*
Aaron Worthing (73a7ea) — 5/3/2011 @ 2:39 pmThe moonbat leftists are all wound up.
JD (d48c3b) — 5/3/2011 @ 2:40 pm“yeah, one person said something bad. they are like totally representative.”
A.W. – Joel is part of the community-based reality. They assume everybody thinks alike because they do.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 5/3/2011 @ 3:13 pm