Patterico's Pontifications

4/28/2011

“I would kill her. I really mean that;” Religious Bigotry and the Fight for Freedom of Expression Comes to the Playboy Mansion (Update: The Royal Wedding Under Threat and the Sun Screws Up Part of the Story)

Filed under: General — Aaron Worthing @ 7:03 am

[Guest post by Aaron Worthing; if you have tips, please send them here.  Or by Twitter @AaronWorthing.]

BIG UPDATE: The Sun Story is, at least in part, wrong or misleading, misattributing a real assessment of danger as a threat. Scroll to the bottom for details.

Update: On a similar note, an Islamofascist group in England is making veiled threats of terror attacks on Prince William imminent wedding ceremony because they hate the royals or something.  Narciso in the comments asks “how is that not treason?”  Good question.

About a week ago, I came across this story:

Sila Sahin, a 25-year-old Turkish German living in Berlin, had until now been regarded as a glowing example of how a modern Muslim girl should behave in a multicultural society….

Posing provocatively on the cover of German Playboy magazine with one breast exposed, Sila Sahin seems to be sending a clear and deliberate message to her conservative Turkish family.

‘I did it because I wanted to be free at last,’ she said. ‘These photographs are a liberation from the restrictions of my childhood.’

Here’s a safe-for-work picture of the actress/model (and yes, I will be putting the less-safe-for-work cover photo in question under the fold):

Anyway, a regular commenter here emailed me last week seeking a link to this Jammie Wearing Fool (JWF) post on the subject and declaring, “I see [an] important journalistic purpose for posting [these] photographs!” and I responded to him as follows:

I think next time a veil story comes up [I] will mention that.  [A]lthough truthfully she seems to make it more like a teenager rebelling against strict parents than the larger issue women in [I]slam have in showing their bodies.

And I still feel that way, but in his post JWF wrote “I smell a day of rage coming” and what do you know?

Sila Sahin has been branded a “whore” and a “western slut” after appearing topless on the cover of the German edition of the men’s magazine.

And Islamic fanatics have posted threatening internet messages….

But Islamic internet sites are being monitored by the BND – the German intelligence agency – after threats were posted about her “shaming Muslim womanhood” and “prostituting herself for money”.

One poster on the Jihad Watch website wrote: “She needs to be very careful…” Another simply said: “She must pay.”

Of course I think you can’t hope to understand the issue without seeing what they are upset about, or at least the cover, albeit mildly censored:

And I especially love this quote:

A kebab shop owner, asked on German TV what he would do if Sila were his daughter, replied: “I would kill her. I really mean that. That doesn’t fit with my culture.”

As you can see, I made it part of the headline, but notice that part I left out.  It doesn’t fit within his culture.  Just to be clear, his culture is fine with suppression of freedom of expression, killing a woman who doesn’t behave the way he wants her to, and even religious bigotry (more on that in a moment) but not with showing your nipple in a magazine.  You know, we have to have priorities people!

Going on:

The Islamic Community of Germany has called for a boycott of Sila.

About three million Muslim immigrants live in Germany, which has seen numerous honour killings in recent years by fanatical husbands, fathers and brothers.

In 2009, an asylum seeker was sentenced to life after killing his “too independent” German wife.

One police intelligence officer said of Sila: “I think what she did was either very brave, or very stupid.She will be double-locking her door at night for a long time to come.”

Now besides the usual Islamofascism v. Free Expression and/or Freedom of Religion stuff, this is also frankly bigoted, based on religion.  After all, Playboy has been in business for how many years?  And yet suddenly they are offended?  One can only conclude that it is the fact that she is a Muslim that is driving this—thus it is discrimination against this woman, based on her religion.

And this is precisely why it is important to protect Koran burning by Terry Jones, even if you dislike it.  This is why this woman’s right to pose nude in Playboy has to be defended, even if you are a feminist appalled by…  pretty much everything Playboy does.  Because for the Islamofascists, this never ends.  There’s no appeasement until everyone is converted to not just Islam, but radical Islam.  Today they are mad that a Muslim is showing her nipple in a magazine.  Tomorrow they are harassing you from not wearing a burqa, regardless of your religion (oh, wait…  that already happened).

And I would ask a question to all the people who condemned Jones for supposedly inspiring killing in the Middle East.  You know, because people over there are so even-keeled, it is really hard to drive them into a murderous frenzy.  So, here’s the question: if Ms. Sahin’s photos inspire riots and murders, will we propose the banning of Playboy?

Indeed, radical Islam is even offended by an image of a pig, including even Piglet.  So would you propose banning the new “old-school” Winnie the Pooh movie coming out this summer?

Do you want to live in a world where children are denied the simple pleasures of the Hundred Acre Wood?

The solution is what I said before:

So the correct response is to live brave lives where we say what is on our minds, with only the most limited restrictions on freedom (like you can’t reveal troop positions live on TV, Geraldo) and of course our own self-imposed limitations on taste.

Hat tip to Powerline, which calls Playboy brave for all of this.  Well, I suppose they knew this might happen and deserve kudos for taking that risk.  But I will only be truly impressed if they refuse to fold.  And John, Hefner was always a creep.  It just became more obvious as he got older.

Big Update (cont): As I said before, the Sun story is wrong or misleading on at least on one point.  There is a line in the story that says:

One poster on the Jihad Watch website wrote: “She needs to be very careful…” Another simply said: “She must pay.”

Well I didn’t realize they meant this Jihad Watch, an anti-Islamofascism site.  As Jihad Watch itself points out, here, the person who said “she needs to be very careful” was almost certainly meaning that not as a threat, but as a genuine statement of concern and warning.  You know, because she really does have to be careful.  As for the line, “she must pay,” they don’t believe it has ever appeared on their site.  So something is fundamentally wrong in the story.

Hey, here’s hoping the whole thing is a false alarm!  Still if you want to argue that you should pick up a copy of this magazine just to show your solidarity, just to be sure, I think you are well-justified.  Better safe than sorry, I say.

Update: Honestly with all the nicknames and real names floating around in my email inbox, I get confused sometimes. So bluntly I accidentally misidentified an emailer as the real Jammie Wearing Fool in the original version of this post. But in fact it was a commenter here who doesn’t like his real name identified. I apologize to everyone involved for the error, both to JWF for the misattribution and to the commenter who had his words put in someone else’s mouth.

[Posted and authored by Aaron Worthing.]

204 Responses to ““I would kill her. I really mean that;” Religious Bigotry and the Fight for Freedom of Expression Comes to the Playboy Mansion (Update: The Royal Wedding Under Threat and the Sun Screws Up Part of the Story)”

  1. Wow. I’ll be in Berlin later this month; maybe I’ll pick up an issue for “research” purposes. :) And thanks – now I’ll feel all weird when I’m at the kebab shop, wondering if it’s that guy.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  2. carl

    well, if you bring the playboy to a kebab shop, be on your toes…

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  3. She is stunning. Were there words in this post?

    JD (306f5d)

  4. royal poofters, especially useless inbred British ones, should be sleeping with one eye open anyways

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  5. feets, that Foster the People remix yesterday was lame. You really do like the dancey pop, doncha?

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  6. narc

    Lol, those islamofascists are idiots if they attack that. I mean nothing could be better calculated to make the women of the world fly into a rage if 1) one hair is hurt on William’s head or 2) their wedding day is ruined.

    and yeah, that is treason. They should all be prosecuted and either imprisoned or at least thrown out of the country. it is amazing that they are allowed to stay and Pastor Jones can’t visit.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  7. Perhaps Muslim women need to write posts about idiots “shaming Muslim manhood.”

    Kevin M (298030)

  8. JD

    when i say we should stand up for freedom of expression, i mean all of us, not just part of us. :-)

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  9. I like the original one a lot but I thought the remix was a lot cheery yes but that’s fun cause of the song is actually kinda dark, sorta

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  10. But, but, but…… Islam is a religion of peace. How many times does our government have to tell you that? I mean, don’t you remember all the protests and burned out cars over Piss Christ and the Madonna created out of camel dung? So how can you think that Islam is any more violent than oh, I don’t know, say, Christianity? Have you forgotten so quickly the horrors of the Crusades? After all, that was just a few short hundred years ago.

    What the kabob shop owner didn’t say was that his culture is Islam. Religion, culture, politics, social norms, all wrapped up in one entity, Islam. The shop owner’s response is no different that would be a shop owner’s response in Iraq or Afghanistan or Iran.

    The alligator is on the move.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  11. Get up, stand up. Stand up for your rights.

    JD (306f5d)

  12. Here’s a cute, safe for work photo, provided that bubblegum is halal.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  13. Anti Islam article number 385

    Random selected quotes: check!

    Handful of bloggers threats: Check!

    Extrapolation to more heinous acts: Check!

    Axe throughly hone: check!

    EricPWJohnson (f872e9)

  14. Eff off islam apologist.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  15. Eric

    we are not going to solve this problem by pretending there is no problem.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  16. Epwj is a bloody imbecile. There is simply no getting around it.

    JD (306f5d)

  17. Axe scimitar throughly honed: check!

    fixed.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  18. Weak justification of islamophobic tinted article: Check!

    Another Yawning attack by JD: Check!

    EricPWJohnson (f872e9)

  19. #11 I detect sarcasm 😉 Repeatedly calling a tail a leg, does not make a tail a leg.

    Progressives can claim to be tolerant all they want, but if they don’t act tolerant, then they aren’t.

    LarryD (feb78b)

  20. Islam apologist:check

    Not givng a shit if this women dies:check

    Got EricPWPOS’s MO down pat.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  21. And yes eric you side with islam because of your hatred of women just like the good progressive you are.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  22. “You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.”–General Sir Charles Napier

    A particularly apt qoute for these Muslim types with their “honor killings” in Western Europe.

    Mike Myers (0e06a9)

  23. Another miscue by DohBiden – attributing my alleged “siding” with islam and ignoring my pointing out another Islamophobic hatred article: Check!

    EricPWJohnson (1125b9)

  24. Ah, cut poor Eric some slack. He’s just hoping the alligator will eat him last.

    Now a radical Islamic group in Great Britain is warning Muslims to stay away from the activities of the royal wedding. Intimidation through threats? Nah, Islam is peaceful. Repeat that in your head, over and over.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  25. this is not islamophobia you communist idiot.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  26. Eric reminds me of the NAACP clown that told Bill O’Reilly last night that people talking about Obama playing basketball is racist because everyone knows that more blacks play basketball than “others” do. (I wonder if Larry Byrd knew that)

    Liberalism is definately a mental disorder.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  27. That last example, which is much more serious, than the earlier is from the successor to Al Mujahiroon,
    the folks that cheered the ‘Magnificent 19′

    narciso (79ddc3)

  28. Retire05 missing the islamophobic slant to this article: Check!

    Excusing his lack of formulating a concise argument by calling someone a clown: check!

    EricPWJohnson (1125b9)

  29. Facts are anti-Islamic: Check.

    Moneyrunner (53e425)

  30. Pointing out Muslims threatening to kill a stunningly beautiful young woman for showing her tits is an example of Islamophobic hatred. The unified brithing record could not be reached for comment. Nor could Scozzafava, the true conservative. In related news, Breitbart still awaits indictment.

    JD (d48c3b)

  31. Followers of Islam are allowed to beat their wives,(but not in the face, or hard enough to break bones) but only for refusing to have sex with them: Check.

    Moneyrunner (53e425)

  32. Epwj stuck in one of his repetitive feedback loops – CHECK!

    JD (b98cae)

  33. Oh, c’mon, JD. There are more Christians in the Middle East than Muslims. Remember? Also, they were handing out Easter cards.

    So Muslims really don’t do anything nasty. And besides, our supposed bigotry makes it okay.

    And Breitbart is frogmarching as we speak.

    Are you surprised?

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  34. JD lying again to color someone’s character because he still will not address the issue that a hotdog salesman and a couple of blogger represent 1.2 billion people: check!

    EricPWJohnson (1125b9)

  35. libearlism has been hijacked so i agree with you retire.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  36. Eric

    > Weak justification of islamophobic tinted article: Check!

    yeah, yeah, reality is islamophobic. *rolls eyes*

    seriously, tell Theo Van Gogh I am being islamophobic. You have to be willfully blind to what is going on to ignore the fact that radical islam is encroaching in free expression.

    And boobies.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  37. Eric siding with islam because he is a fascist:Check

    Eric is a jew hating idiot who thinks islam is being persecuted:Check

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  38. Kebab shop ≠ hot dog stand, check.

    BTW, In Berlin it’s currywurst, not hot dogs either. They love them some currywurst.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  39. DohBiden, there are NO true liberals left in the Democratic party. They are all true progressives who would foist their socialist ideals down our throats. Just remember this; socialism is never meant for the people who support socialism, only for the prolitariate. As an example, I give you Michael Moore-on and Babs Streisand. If they really believed the crap they preach, they would have no more money than the guy that works on the lowest rung of their corporate ladder.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  40. But hey we’re nativists because we oppose islam right Eric you POS?

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  41. EPWJ, please outline how this article is islamaphobic. I’m sure that something authoritative that shows the rejection of this violent belief system by oh, at least 4/5ths of the relevant muslim population would be quite convincing …

    SPQR (26be8b)

  42. Islam and marxism are left wing but are entirely different.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  43. ________________________________________

    royal poofters,

    Happyfeet, isn’t that a putdown based on the ambiguous nature of a person’s sexuality (mainly that of a male)? IOW, even you have to admit that many people — including yourself — unconsciously sense there is something weird about same-sex behavior, or that it can be easily mocked.

    As for fundamentalist Islams living in the Western World, I’m puzzled by where they’ve chosen to set up their place of residence, assuming they weren’t coerced to do that. That’s even truer today now that the West has become so liberal/libertine, certainly in terms of cultural standards, while the Middle East has gotten, or remained, so conservative/reactionary—eg, recent polls indicate a large percentage of Egyptians want their government to follow the edicts of the Koran.

    Mark (411533)

  44. eric

    > the issue that a hotdog salesman and a couple of blogger represent 1.2 billion people: check!

    When did i say all muslims thought this way?

    but bluntly it doesn’t take much. how many people did it take to kill theo van gogh? it took only 19 people to pull off 9-11.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  45. A beautiful fraulein; it’s a shame folks want to kill her now for, you know, doing what she wanted to

    ‘Cuz free will takes a back seat to religion all over the western world.

    Oh, wait…

    Why is that up until now there’s never been such furor and public death threats associated with a women choosing to model for photos in the all-together?

    Maybe the same reason that there aren’t riots and murders associated with exhibits of Piss Christ and the oh-so-mainstream ridiculing of God-bothery types in the west.

    Does it seem like there’s a discernable pattern here? Amirite?

    Bob Reed (5f2db5)

  46. ___________________________________________

    Anti Islam article number 385

    Your rationalizations and excuse-making towards Islam would make sense if the core of that religion weren’t represented by the bloody, vengeful, grotesque history of its founder, Mohamed.

    I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to say that people who are devotees of Islam (and not ignorant of its entire history) and who believe that doesn’t necessarily make them extremists are analogous to people who are fans of Communism or Fascism and who contend that doesn’t imply anything about their comfortability with ultra-liberalism or ultra-conservatism, or both.

    Mark (411533)

  47. Islam is not ultra-conservative it is ultra-fascist which is a left wing ideology.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  48. the issue that a hotdog salesman and a couple of blogger [do not] represent 1.2 billion people: check!

    That’s why Aaron said they won’t stop until you practice not merely Islam, but radical Islam. They persecute Muslims too. Aaron is quite clear that those who would be enraged at burning a Koran, more than merely offended like I am at anti-Christian commentary, but enraged, are persecutors who we have to stand up to.

    That comes at a price. Free speech always does. Standing up to violent bullies in this case also makes non-violent non-bullies unpleased. But it’s not intolerant of them to displease them.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  49. Aand Aaron proves my point…..

    Mark as well

    EricPWJohnson (1125b9)

  50. Well, I am not saying that this applies to the concept of saying that all the Islamist hatred is minor, but…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

    If the shoe fits….

    I’m with SPQR. Let’s see Islamic leader after Islamic leader condemn this kind of thing. That would be the right thing to do.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  51. Epwj lives in an odd Alice in Wonderland kind of world where pointing out facts not in dispute is Islamophobic hatred and pointing out demonstrable lies, fabulism, and general silliness is lying. Oh, but there are millions of joooooooooooooOs in Iran.

    JD (85b089)

  52. Well, that’s good, EPWJ, because you are incapable of proving your own points. Good thing someone is doing it for you.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  53. Eric

    the lack of substance in your responses is your confession that you have nothing to say.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  54. SPQR

    Please elaborate on “this” violent belief system?

    And now that we have totally eradicated wife and child beating here….

    EricPWJohnson (1125b9)

  55. the world would be a better place without royal poofters pooftering about royally I think

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  56. Aaron,

    What can I say? You will take ANY opportunity to use any remote incident to justify your rampant and somewhat emabarassingly out of place islamophobia.

    I mean, I wonder what happened to get you to a place where you use this crap to justify these smears then bring up a random murder in Holland as a direct parallel?

    Really 1.2 billion muslims millions? in the USA and this is what we need to worry about? A hotdog salesman in germany and a couple of bloggers making threats?

    This is all you got?

    EricPWJohnson (1125b9)

  57. the world would be a better place without royal poofters pooftering about royally I think

    Yeah, I agree, but it’s not causing me to lose sleep. And I wonder how much better. The people who give a crap about royalty gossip would just move on to wondering what Lady Gaga is doing. But still, royalty in a western country in the 21st century? Sad.

    And now that we have totally eradicated wife and child beating here….

    The scale of community supported brutality that we see in some Muslim societies is certainly not present in most of America.

    Aaron told the truth, EPWJ. That’s what has you upset. He’s not making anything up; you just don’t want him talking about this issue.

    Why is this issue so bad that it’s intolerance to speak of, but not bad enough to want fixed? If you pay attention, Aaron usually predicts a couple of objections to his posts and writes in a way that disclaims them. In this case, he distinguished between Islam altogether, and radical Islam, which is abhorrent and we must stand up against.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  58. Eric sides with islam because he hates women.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  59. Really 1.2 billion muslims millions? in the USA

    Again, he distinguished between Islam and radical islam, though I think there is a large number of believers in the radical variety.

    This is all you got?

    but… you just said he does this all the time, so clearly no, this is not all he has. He’s talking about lots of honor killings, remember? Is murder of innocent women really a ‘p’shaw is that all?’ issue for you?

    Wouldn’t just a single one of these justify a blog post?

    Dustin (c16eca)

  60. I think the subtext of this, is that Prince Harry did serve in Afghanistan, until a reporter revealed
    his status, and Prince William, certainly pushed to be deployed there, or in Iraq.

    narciso (79ddc3)

  61. EPWJ, why do you hate the delicious, zesty tang of a donner kebab? Every mention of kebabs takes you to new levels kebabaphobic hotdoggery. Shame on you.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  62. narciso, that is good. At least those young men made military service seem like a man’s duty, to impressionable young men in Britain. Even if that’s all fake and staged, I guess that is good.

    Honestly, I don’t know which is Harry or William (and I wouldn’t have even known one was named Harry). I barely know one is getting hitched, and I don’t know which. If Britain wants subsidized useless celebrity elitism to stain their Republic, that’s just dumb, but it’s not my country. Frankly, it’s not even the dumbest thing Britain does lately.

    I wonder what happened to get you to a place where you use this crap to justify these smears then bring up a random murder in Holland as a direct parallel?

    Maybe it was September 11.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  63. kebabs – halal
    hot dogs – haram

    Mr. knows-it-all about Islam forgets what they make hot dogs out of in Deutschland.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  64. Oh, my:

    “…a random murder in Holland…”

    Oh, Theo van Gogh was the victim of far more than a random murder in Holland. It was not random at all.

    So either (i) EPWJ is outstandingly ignorant, or (ii) is just trolling about.

    But just in case (i) is the case, he might Google (as he often urges others) “Theo van Gogh”.

    And he should feel ashamed. Not just for himself, but the Muslim world. There should have been outrage from mullahs and Muslim intellectuals worldwide. There was not.

    Compare how American Christians dealt with “Piss Christ.”

    Has to be a troll, to write something as foolish as that.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  65. EPWJ writes: ” …then bring up a random murder in Holland as a direct parallel …”

    A random murder?

    That’s hardly EPWJ’s most brazen piece of bullshit.

    But its up there. There is a reason you have a reputation as a clown here, Eric. And that sentence is among the exhibits.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  66. Has anyone read Ayaan Hirst Ali’s new book? I saw it at the airport, but I need a vouch for the $25.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  67. Eric

    > What can I say? You will take ANY opportunity to use any remote incident to justify your rampant and somewhat emabarassingly out of place islamophobia.

    You mean like this?

    http://patterico.com/2011/01/08/an-%E2%80%9Ci-am-spartacus%E2%80%9D-christmas-muslims-stand-with-coptic-christians-in-egypt/

    Yeah everyone knows I am nothing but negative on Muslims. *rolls eyes*

    > Really 1.2 billion muslims millions? in the USA and this is what we need to worry about?

    You keep thinking this implies something about all Muslims even though I constantly make it clear that not all Muslims are the problem.

    Hell, the heroine in this story is a muslim.

    So I talk about “radical muslims” and you read that as “all muslims.” Who is the real bigot?

    And as for the size of the threat, even if the bad guys are small in number, they are large in influence. They successfully convinced comedy central to censor itself. They have convinced the city of Dearborn, MI to pre-emptively arrest a man on the theory that Muslims can’t prevent themselves from attacking him and somehow that is his fault. They have convinced Molly Norris and Salman Rushdie to go into hiding. Do I have to go on?

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  68. I wonder what Lady Gaga is doing

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  69. Aaron, go back to the Lenin quote about this person.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  70. probably something fabulous

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  71. Dustin

    harry’s service was not fake or staged. he was serving in secret and by all accounts really doing the work. i think i posted on it when it was revealed. i particularly enjoyed the fact that he was wearing an american flag on his hat. let me try to look that up.

    my impression is william did the same. i think the royals take it seriously for 2 reasons.

    one, because hell they might actually need to defend themselves one day. i mean clancy’s patriot games (the book, not the movie) is a bit outlandish, but not impossible.

    two, because if you ever observe how nobility starts in the first place, it is always the warrior caste that becomes the nobility. its common in virtually every culture that has nobility.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  72. Simon,

    the only troll here – is Aaron, trolling through blogging

    only on this subject – he has a problem with it – any good point he had to make faded long ago in this sewer that posts like this turn this blog into

    And for what gain.

    A woman, who was never in the middle east with probably a german mother – shows her business in a slut mag and we get a oouple of bloggers calling her a slut and a smary greezy hotdog vendor who spouts off smack that he would never do.

    Gobsmacked!

    EricPWJohnson (1125b9)

  73. I wonder what Lady Gaga is doing

    Comment by happyfeet — 4/28/2011 @ 9:41 am

    Only God — and possibly Weird Al — know

    no one you know (325a59)

  74. I’m sure this issue of Playboy is sold out at all Muslim outlets. They need it for … proper identification.

    Neo (03e5c2)

  75. Pub singer arrested for racism after Chinese passers-by hear him perform Kung Fu Fighting

    Neo (03e5c2)

  76. smary greezy hotdog vendor

    Every time EPJW lies, a muslim kebab vendor weeps.

    EPJW – Why do you hate hot dogs? Do you feel similarly about apple pie? Chevrolet? Momma? Trains?

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  77. dustin

    here’s more on harry serving in afghanistan.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/feb/28/military.afghanistan

    and i was wrong. i didn’t blog on it. instead i mercilessly mocked my british coworker pointing out that apparently their prince thought he was an american citizen.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/29/prince-harry-wore-america_n_89212.html

    actually, though, the story of the hat is this. he picked it out because he liked what it said on the front, which you never seen in the photos. Something like this: “Killing is Our Business. And Business is Good.”

    which is kind of cool of him.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  78. neo

    yeah, i was going to bring that up later, probably today.

    look i have mixed feelings about that song. its use of the term “china men” is dubious and is the singer’s image of asian people just breaking out into kung fu.

    but its still a fun song, and even the asian americans i know sing along and like it. and its part of kitchey culture now.

    But none of that justifies arresting the guy. sheesh.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  79. Aaron, thanks for informing me about their military service. I had no idea about the US flag. That’s rare, and appreciated.

    You’re right, of course, that ‘nobility’ claims derive from warriors. I confess I don’t really think about them this way. That Prince… charles I think … reminds me of Al Gore, not Sylvester Stallone.

    So I talk about “radical muslims” and you read that as “all muslims.” Who is the real bigot?

    EPWJ, do you have a response to this? I think Aaron’s right. This sounds a lot like someone crying racist when someone talks about fighting drug addiction. Don’t assume all Muslims are implicated by a condemnation of honor killings. Let’s pray that is far from fair.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  80. Epwj – do you enjoy lying about people? Smearing people without merit? Making stuff up?

    JD (d56362)

  81. Translation of Eric’s garbage-The nerve of you not burying your head in the sand.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  82. Dear EPWJ:

    Nice deflection of the Theo van Gogh assassination.

    Either apologize for being ignorant, a troll, or take a break for a while. The man nearly had his head cut off with knife after being shot to death, and had a Muslim tract pinned to his chest.

    “Random murder,” you say.

    You really are a knob, much of the time. Go away for a while, would you?

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  83. No eric you side with islam because you hate women.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  84. Aaron

    I sent you that article and you used it to smear muslims again.

    Thanks for only proving that you have a problem and you need some kind of closure.

    There’s plenty of room for more responsible discussion on this but with your lack of knowledge about the subject – its bound to degenerate into your just plain basic primordial hatred of muslims while trying to defend a muslim who took her clothes off and fingered herself on a cover and are trying to justify another transparent attempt to distort these people so that perhaps someone reading this might just decide – what? to take matters into their own hands?

    It that your somewhat thinly veiled strategy here?

    EricPWJohnson (1125b9)

  85. I missed that random murder breezy dismissal of the Van Gogh assassination. Cute.

    JD (2da347)

  86. _______________________________________

    poofters pooftering

    Don’t complain. In this age of gay being the new “Negro,” you’re gonna get a lot of pooftering, royal or otherwise.

    There should have been outrage from mullahs and Muslim intellectuals worldwide.

    Right after 9-11 — when George W Bush (naively) claimed Islam was a religion of peace — and before I had become aware of the history of Mohamed, I assumed fanaticism within the context of the Islamic world was analogous to fanaticism within the context of Christianity. IOW, that zealots were taking micro facets of Islam and running with them. But the history of Mohamed ain’t like the history of Christ (or Buddha, for that matter), so the fanatics in Islam have more things to happily point to and firmer ground to validate their beliefs.

    Mark (411533)

  87. breezy dismissal of the Van Gogh assassination

    It flew over me head as well. I thought he was just mentioning a random country.

    you used it to smear muslims again.

    EPWJ, the word smear implies Aaron is lying about something.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  88. EPJW hates women. And kebabs.

    Wait wait wait – fingered herself? You’re a clueless knob.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  89. I don’t think epwj hates women, just boobies. And playboy.

    JD (2da347)

  90. EPWJ should move to iran and convert.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  91. I wonder what happened to get you to a place where you use this crap to justify these smears then bring up a random murder in Holland as a direct parallel?

    Had missed this too. Wow. (Good catch, Simon Jester.)

    Is it possible you really don’t know why Theo van Gogh had a here’s-why-I-executed-this-infidel note stabbled into his chest by a terrorist?

    no one you know (325a59)

  92. JD

    I just spent a week in india with Islamic investors several who were married are married to Americans.

    Staying in hotels with them spending 5 solid days every meal going for walks through the slums and back alleys as these people look for investment and job growth opportunities – family is all apart of every discussion.

    there are always people in every culture who beat their spouses – you wouldnt do it, i wouldnt do it, Aaron, anyone here wouldnt do it.

    These people love their wives and their children.

    there are elements in every society who do this

    These people believe in the god of moses and Abraham, they also believe in Jesus as well and pray to him as well as Mohammed

    you have more in common with the common arab man than you would ever know

    EricPWJohnson (1125b9)

  93. “Anti Islam article number 385″

    Given that thousands and thousands of Americans (not to mention thousands of people of other nationalities) have been murdered in cold blood by the same sort of Islamo-scum that get their jollies threatening young women who don’t care to be slaves to Islamic “culture” (which is only a culture in the sense of bacteria growng in a petri dish), I’d say we were well past article 385.

    I despise Islam and everything it stands for, and I make no bones about it.

    Got a problem with that?

    Boo hoo for you.

    Dave Surls (910d5a)

  94. so a random person says if his daughter did this “I would kill her..” but you didn’t give the rest of the quote: “Yeah, I would kill her – uh, she would be unarmed, right? And she would not have the protection of, a man, right? And I would be physically stronger than her or have several men to overpower her, right? So to recap – if she was weaker than me and unarmed and I could inflict harm upon her and she would not fight back because she was operating under the false assumption that I would not harm her as I was her father…then, yes – I would totally kill my unarmed, physically weaker daughter – because to us that is what it means to be a MAN.”

    Californio (9fbaf7)

  95. you have more in common with the common arab man than you would ever know

    I think I have quite a lot in common with the people in the Middle East.

    This is why I find radical islam unacceptable. It’s not necessary. These people have the hardware upstairs to realize the folly of oppressing eachother. This story has a man saying he would kill his own daughter, and yet you agree that this person has no reason to be unlike me, who would rather die for my family than kill them (like most men).

    I think you’re onto something fundamental, in how Islam is difficult to reform, and the best path is probably converting people to another religion. However, there is a distinction between Islam and radical Islam, and the only one here whose logic appears to reject that is you.

    India is such a poor country, as is much of the Middle East, that it’s easy to get caught up in the fact that a lot of these people are just struggling to get by. I’ve always thought prosperity itself is the greatest solution to radical Islam. It feeds on human misery and the cheapness of life itself, and anyone can see it is pure evil.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  96. There is nothing to see here, and if there is it’s just islamophobia – right eric?

    Oh wait, as it turns out the practice of honor killings is something of a problem in certain tribes and religions.

    Of course, according to some it’s better to be quiet then to be accused of islamophobia when confronted by exactly the sort of words that are often the preceding actions to these kinds of killings.

    Right eric?

    Makewi (0864f9)

  97. Muslims do not believe in jesus you dhimmi.

    And yes opposing islam is racism in your eyes.

    Please drop dead thanks Eric.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  98. Eric

    > I sent you that article and you used it to smear muslims again.

    What smear? I specifically pointed out that good Muslims were standing up in a downright heroic way against the bad ones. Are any of those facts untrue?

    Or are you still upset about me pointing out that mohammed was a pedo? Again, am I factually incorrect?

    Its amazing that I can write a post that says this:

    > But still this story should be filed away and recalled when someone says that all Muslims are bad or intolerant. Muslims are capable of being positively heroic in defense of freedom, as this story attests. And that is cause for optimism as we struggle against our common enemy in the terrorist movement.

    And all you can do is bitch about how I am smearing all Muslims. You are willfully blind to the facts.

    > There’s plenty of room for more responsible discussion on this but with your lack of knowledge about the subject

    What exact knowledge do I lack? Seriously enlighten me about the facts that make it so that radical islam is not causing censorship all over the free world.

    > its bound to degenerate

    Lol I should stop because I might think bad thoughts.

    > fingered herself on a cover

    Wow, you are in serious hallucination mode. There is no evidence of penetration, you creep.

    > to take matters into their own hands?

    I have encouraged people to take matters into their own hands with peaceful protests, like drawing mohammed.

    > It that your somewhat thinly veiled strategy here?

    Oh, its my hidden agenda! So hidden you can’t prove it.

    The fact is you are hallucinating my motives. And you have been demonstratively wrong at least once, when you wrote:

    > You will take ANY opportunity to use any remote incident to justify your rampant and somewhat emabarassingly out of place islamophobia.

    And I showed you in fact that I said something very positive about the Muslims who offered themselves up to the coptics as human shields and indeed used them specifically to refute the claim that all Muslims were bad. And I have done so on a regular basis, particularly highlighting the story of that Iraqi policeman who sacrificed himself on Iraqi election day, to point out that the word jihad can be a good thing, exactly like the word martyr in English.

    But you want me somehow to not only prove the negative, but even my proof of the negative is not enough for you.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  99. Epwj – I do not care who you hung out with last week. Nor do I care what you have to say, since that fable was utterly unrelated to anything I actually said. Having said that, it is highly presumptuous for you to preach to me about what the average Muslim believes. Plus, quit lying. That is all.

    JD (d56362)

  100. JD #90 – so you, too, have observed that epwj certainly seems to hate those similar to himself – and not as a playboy …

    (innocent grin)

    Alasdair (205079)

  101. Let’s imagine that Aaron had written 385 times about radical muslims threatening to murder someone over their free speech.

    At what point does this cease to be a smear, and begins to be a massive problem of intolerance of free speech?

    And isn’t it sad that EPWJ’s reaction is that Aaron shouldn’t say what he wants to about this? Even if it’s truthful?

    ‘shut up’ is not a good argument to refute the idea that radical islam is the enemy of freedom of expression.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  102. – I would totally kill my unarmed, physically weaker daughter – because to us that is what it means to be a MAN.”

    Comment by Californio — 4/28/2011 @ 10:05 am

    Don’t forget honorable. For the honor of the family, this must be done.

    Don’t see anyone here saying all Muslims would do this. But you don’t see Christian pastors or Jewish rabbis giving TV interviews on how to beat your wife or talking about how unburka-d women are like “uncovered meat” you can’t expect your cat to stay away from. There aren’t rallies and whole groups and protests of Christians demanding the right to do the things that take away so many Muslim women’s rights.

    And what’s just about as bad, the peaceful Muslims don’t raise their voices in fury at their religion being hijacked by these terrorists. Have wondered many times why that is.

    no one you know (325a59)

  103. it is not a “phobia” to look askance at a cult who’s own creed plainly says that their goal is to either convert, enslave or kill anyone who is not a member of the cult.

    that is just good old common sense. you cannot peacefully co-exist with people that want to kill you.

    i am NOT “islamophobic”: i take them at their word and conduct myself accordingly. they wish to destroy all i hold dear and replace it with their tyranny. i say not just no but hell no.

    thus i believe that we need to routinely burn korans and mock moohammed (pi$$ be upon him) with cartoons and anything else that gets his cult members up in arms on a routine basis. moose slime terrorists need to be hunted down relentlessly where ever they hide and be killed mercilessly when they are found.

    until such time as the head bangers amongst us decide to change their ways and live in peace with the rest of us in a civilized society, rather than constantly trying to drag us back to the darkness they prefer, i not only don’t care what they think about things, but will cheer on anything that pisses them off.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  104. __________________________________________

    they also believe in Jesus as well and pray to him as well as Mohammed

    But you have to admit that Islam at its core, given the ruthless, bloody history of Mohammed, is corrupt.

    The only good thing that may evolve out of all of this is the variety of liberals throughout the Western World and the ultra-conservatives (a weird type of pity-party reactionary) of the Islamic world becoming odd bedfellows. And such a peculiar relationship resulting in their chipping away at — if not destroying — one another.

    Mark (411533)

  105. dohbiden

    actually they do believe in jesus. but they think he is merely a prophet and not the son of god. and mohammed is better, in their mind.

    what they believe about my lord and savior is frankly heresy in my faith. and what i believe of mohammed is blaphemy in theirs. and that’s okay. that’s how freedom of religion is supposed to work. i believe and say thing that offend them, they say and believe things that offend me, and we let it roll off. the problem is the radicals who then decide to behead someone over this crap.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  106. I missed the fingering herself on the cover idiocy too. Good Allah.

    JD (6e25b4)

  107. How many of you actually scrolled up to verify EPWJ’s description of the photo? Shame!

    I think this is the finger image EPWJ referred to.

    Seriously enlighten me about the facts that make it so that radical islam is not causing censorship all over the free world.

    1) SHUT UP.

    2) You are racist because you won’t shut up!

    3) How dare you ask. Shut up!

    Dustin (c16eca)

  108. btw, cali, that was a great comment. that guy is a coward.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  109. Eric thinks he is being so politically correct by defending a cult that has been labeled “religious”.

    Most “religions” don’t tell men which direction to face when they are taking a leak. Islam does. Most religions don’t tell a man to beat his wife if she doesn’t live up to his expectations of her being no more than a slave. Islam does. Most religions doesn’t direct its followers to kill those who don’t accept it. Islam does.

    But Eric is sooooo proud. He is defending the death cult known as Islam.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  110. dustin

    wow, that is a great and powerful video you are linking to. Everyone should go look now. you won’t regret it.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  111. retire

    of course islam is a religion.

    radical islam is, too. i mean its a STUPID religion, but is one. Seriously 72 virgins. First, um, how does that math work out. are there even 72 virgins above the age of 18 alive in the world right now? let alone 72 for each suicide bomber?

    second, you have to be a unique brand of idiot to think that God is some kind of pimp.

    So radical islam is stupid. but it is a religion.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  112. ______________________________________

    I’ve always thought prosperity itself is the greatest solution to radical Islam.

    But keep in mind that the background of several terrorists within the world of Islam has been one of prosperity (or certainly not poverty), comfort and education. A paradigm of that is Malik Hasan, the US Army psychiatrist who shot up Fort Hood and murdered several people.

    Mark (411533)

  113. Muslims believe jesus was one of their own but he wasn’t.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  114. some people – not all but some – what are muslims are very angry people and they have control issues

    Dr. Phil says that, “Controlling people often participate in emotional extortion: ‘Agree with me, or else…’ For the good of your relationship, sometimes it’s best to agree to disagree.”

    Dr. P would advise us to negotiate boundaries with our angry muslim friends. I think this is a good idea.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  115. ____________________________________________

    you have to be a unique brand of idiot to think that God is some kind of pimp.

    Not necessarily all that unique in the context of Islam…

    albatrus.org:

    Mohammed knew that sex would sell very well among the group of his followers who were motivated to fight battles by the promise of sex slaves and booty. By constantly emphasizing to his followers that they would get untouched virgins in Paradise, Mohammed is clearly expressing his “high” opinion of the institution of marriage and his fairness to women.

    The specific Hadith in which the number of virgins is specified is Hadith Al-Tirmidhi in the Book of Sunah (volume IV, chapters on The Features of Paradise as described by the Messenger of Allah, chapter 21, About the Smallest Reward for the People of Paradise. The same hadith is also quoted by Ibn Kathir in his Quranic commentary (Tafsir) of Surah Al-Rahman:

    “The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: ‘The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana’a [Yemen].”

    (QURAN 37:40-4 : “In the Gardens of Paradise, Facing one another on thrones, Round them will be passed a cup of pure wine; White, delicious to the drinkers, Neither they will have any kind of hurt, abdominal pain, headache, or sin, nor will they suffer intoxication from it. And with them will be chaste females, restraining their glances, with wide and beautiful eyes.”

    (QURAN 55:54-59): “Reclining upon the couches lined with silk brocade, and the fruits of the Gardens will be near at hand. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny? Wherein will be those houris, restraining their glances upon their husbands, whom no man or jinn has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse before. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny? In beauty they are like rubies and coral. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny?”

    (QURAN 78:31-34): “As for the righteous, they shall surely triumph. Theirs shall be gardens and vineyards, and high-bosomed virgins for companions: a truly overflowing cup.”

    Mark (411533)

  116. “These people believe in the god of moses and Abraham…”

    Crap.

    They follow the insane teachings of one man, a pedophile, murderer, liar and slaver, who took the creed of a typical Arab brigand, mixed it with a few stories out of the Bible, and produced the vile heresy known as Islam, which has been polluting a significant part of the planet ever since it vomited forth from Arabia 1400 years ago or so.

    Islam, and the cultures that cling to it, much like a maggot attached to a piece of rotting meat, are a blight on the planet, and the sooner they’re eradicated from the world, the better off the world will be.

    Dave Surls (910d5a)

  117. bosh Mr. Surls islam isn’t the problem the problem is that some people what are muslims have bad attitudes

    The first thing to do is to invite them over for fajitas.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  118. Thanks for clearing that up for me Aaron.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  119. But keep in mind that the background of several terrorists within the world of Islam has been one of prosperity

    Mark, this is a very good point.

    We have to be careful. It’s not the case that wealthy people aren’t capable of being radicals. In fact, 9/11 wouldn’t have happened but for some very rich, very privileged bastard.

    However, the nature of these oppressive regimes is that most men are miserable, and when I read the Quran, I see how it appeals to that misery, and I worry about how cheap life seems to someone at the bottom in a place like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan (which aren’t really very similar, aside from things surrounding their misery).

    I think a Middle East where most men get married and have kids, and can get a decent job, will not have the problems that the current Middle East has. I think the war in Iraq represents the clearest chance for this to begin.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  120. “The first thing to do is to invite them over for fajitas.”

    Invite the little shits over to share your fajitas one day, and the next day they’ll be repaying the favor by flying jet planes into the sides of your skyscrapers.

    Dave Surls (910d5a)

  121. That is certainly true, consider the Cairo of Mohammed Atta, seen in Al Aswani’s the Yacoubian
    institution, even the wealthy are perched precariously in their status

    narciso (79ddc3)

  122. If chuckie manboobs from lgf saw this blog he would be angry.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  123. A woman, who was never in the middle east with probably a german mother – shows her business in a slut mag and we get a oouple of bloggers calling her a slut and a smary greezy hotdog vendor who spouts off smack that he would never do.

    Gobsmacked!

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 4/28/2011 @ 9:43 am

    Your inability to read articles… or for that matter to make common sense inferences from basic texts is damning.

    Are you guessing that her mother is German because she wouldn’t have posed naked otherwise? According to the interview, its her father, a Turkish actor, who supports her decision, and her mother is the one who refuses to even talk to her anymore.

    How can you refute any argument if you can not be bothered to even learn the basic facts of the case presented?

    Better to keep silent and risk being thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

    Spike (4573c4)

  124. epwj just got spiked.

    Frankly, honor killings are a reality. I don’t see why they would be less horrible if one of the parents wasn’t Arab. That means nothing.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  125. Hey guys, look at the big update. the sun screwed up something MAJOR in the story. one of the alleged threats almost wasn’t a threat at all.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  126. ‘facepalm with an octopus’ seriously,

    narciso (79ddc3)

  127. Yeah, I’m going to go with ‘fake but accurate’ on the Jihad watch update.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  128. I think a Middle East where most men get married and have kids, and can get a decent job, will not have the problems that the current Middle East has.

    Dustin, I’m not totally sure how the cultures of the Middle East compared with those in the West will evolve (or devolve) over time. In general, greater economic comfortability does seems to foster a mindset of socio-political liberalism (ie, “limousine liberalism” in particular—and one does not have to be wealthy to be guilty of that type of willful naivete and two-faced shallowness), as evident in the US and certainly Europe.

    It’s possible that the Middle East and intrinsic aspects of Islamism, even when moving to a higher economic level, may follow a different path. Then again, look at how different American culture was as recently as the 1950s. And nations of Western Europe used to declare war on one another as recently as the first half of the 20th century. So when a society goes from rigid rightism to rigid liberalism, or visa versa, can be unpredictable.

    Mark (411533)

  129. Dustin

    > Yeah, I’m going to go with ‘fake but accurate’…

    hey they are real and spectacular!

    > …on the Jihad watch update.

    Oh, you mean the quotes. my bad.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  130. btw, joking aside, i sent an email to the sun pointing this out. we’ll see what happens.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  131. “Today they are mad that a Muslim is showing her nipple in a magazine.” Both nipples, bush, and ass actually.

    Of course it is evil for the jihadis to want to kill her over this. On the other hand, how many of you fathers would want to see your daughter in a Playboy nude spread? It’s puzzling that so many conservatives want to congratulate this lady for doing something that they themselves disapprove of, either as an irritation to Muslims, or as a provocative demonstration of Western liberty.

    I’ll gladly ogle all the Muslim women who want to pose naked, and I believe in their right to do it, but I’ll stop short of cheering them on for it.

    gp (72be5d)

  132. sometimes when you’re a hot muslim chick you just gotta take off your clothes and say hey world check me out

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  133. gp, perhaps this is a good example of why the term ‘conservative’ doesn’t work.

    People who wish to change the status quo to classic liberalism, by exporting western values, are not really conservatives, even if you throw a ‘neo’ in the front of the term.

    It seems that more and more, ‘conservatives’ want change, and want freedom, and value individual liberty. It’s always been the case, but lately, the ‘liberals’ want more and more status quo, such as on the role of government.

    Anyway, if this were my daughter, I would consider myself a failure of a father. different strokes though. I do want daughters to grow up in a society where their good choices were actual choices, rather than forced on them.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  134. gp

    well, on this i am a true hypocrite.

    if i ever have a daughter, i would never want her to appear in a playboy.

    i would never want my neice, who has almost been like a daughter to me, to appear in one. i would never want my little cousin-in-law/God Daughter, to appear.

    But i am not generally against the magazine.

    its sort of like what a stand up comedian said years ago.

    “i tell you, the first guy who comes to pick up my daughter in a van, is dead. i know. I had a van.

    “On the other hand, I would loan my son the keys to my van.”

    Or to quote hank hill: “Its called a double standard. don’t knock it, you’ve got the good end of it.”

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  135. That was a Rule 5 derived post, wasn’t it AW,

    narciso (79ddc3)

  136. Aaron, to label Islam as nothing more than a “religion” is to deny the reality of Islam. Even Zudhi Jasser says that Islam is much more than just a “religion” and that it is also a total way of life, unlike western religions. Islam removes from its followers the one thing that Christianity acknowledges, free will.

    Christianity accepts the premise that all people are of free will, and that the decisions they make will determine their entry into Heaven. Islam removes free will by saying that all things are predetermined by Allah and that what ever action a true believer takes, it was predetermined by Allah, absolving the person for their own actions. What other “religion” do you know that dictates which direction you must face when urinating?

    Islam is NOT a religion, it is a poltical philosophy cloaked in the mantilla of religion.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  137. narc

    i certainly don’t mind the rule 5 angle to it. :-)

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  138. Racists and bigots. Quite a following you have Aaron. I guess a racist and bigot would attract other racists and bigots though.

    Everyone knows that one religious crackpot means All Muslims are bigots.

    Just ask your good friend Fred Phelps.

    Just like Obama having dark skin means he was unlikely to have been born in the U.S. and must prove it after he has already done so.

    jharp (f8a6a3)

  139. May I be cynical for one moment? What if this is merely a ruse on the part of Ms. Sahin, who really just wants to come to America to try and further a modeling/acting career and is cleverly using these threats as a way of seeking political asylum here?

    Of course, after taking a look at her, I care not in the least what her reasons for coming here are, just give her the damn green card post haste!

    JVW (cedcb1)

  140. That photo makes me want to get in the shower and play with my Koran. No offense intended to her or the Koran.

    Birdbath (19803d)

  141. EPWJ bleated: These people believe in the god of moses and Abraham, they also believe in Jesus as well and pray to him as well as Mohammed.

    — Really . . . Muslims that pray to Jesus?

    Icy Texan (80dea7)

  142. A.W. – Thank you for bringing these important journalistic stories and photographs to our attention.

    Keep up the good work.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  143. I’am just waiting for Rachel Cadcow to blame our opposition to islam on gorebull warming.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  144. Just found some of the photo-spread pics, and I must say . . .

    Good Allah!

    Icy Texan (80dea7)

  145. Actually, one would hope this is something Maddow and the right can achieve common ground on.

    Where are democrat feminists on honor killings? Obviously they don’t agree with them, but why isn’t this considered a front page story?

    Dustin (c16eca)

  146. The Islamic Squirrel Food need to consider carefully how angry they really want to make the West. I don’t say this as a threat, but as a cold assessment of fact; the Multiculturalist Twits and such trash are a thin veneer none too securely glued on. Underneath is a culture that has scant tolerance for uppity foreigners, and is a great deal better at doling out violence than the Islamotwerps.

    I don’t like where this is heading. I don’t like the Manifest Destiny leftovers that are likely to rise to the top of the cesspit if and when we collectively decide that we Have Had Enough Of This Sh*t. But I will say that I think that the Camel Pesterers are likely to like it a great deal less.

    C. S. P. Schofield (8b1968)

  147. Where are democrat feminists on honor killings? Obviously they don’t agree with them, but why isn’t this considered a front page story?

    There’s the old school feminism of Gloria Steinham which says that pornography debases women. It’s the kind of feminism that Rush Limbaugh makes caricatures out of.

    And then there’s the new feminism (sometimes called “lipstick feminism”) which says that a woman can be openly sexual AND still demand equal treatment, etc.

    I think your question is intended to address old school feminists. As a liberal and feminist myself, I can tell you that old school feminists barely exist anymore.

    Kman (5576bf)

  148. Actually I don’t think it is treason. The definition of treason is plotting against the life or the wife (and therefore succession) of the Sovereign or his heir. William is not yet the heir, so plotting against him is not treason, and nor would sleeping with Ms Middleton, even after the wedding, be treason.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  149. Where are democrat feminists on honor killings? Obviously they don’t agree with them, but why isn’t this considered a front page story?

    Comment by Dustin — 4/28/2011 @ 1:32 pm

    Which honor killings?

    The ones decreed by the Christian bible?

    Yeah, you have a point. Where are those Christians condemning the bible?

    Here you go. From your buddy Matt Drudge.

    Gay Man Beaten to Death with Rocks

    A 28-year-old Upper Darby, Pa., man has been charged with murder after telling police that he stoned a 70-year-old man to death when the man made homosexual advances toward him, authorities say. John Joe Thomas, 28, told authorities that he read in the Old Testament that homosexuals should be stoned to death and received a message in his prayers that he must end Murray Seidman’s life.

    http://www.drudge.com/news/142356/gay-man-beaten-death-rocks

    Where are those Christians condemnations?

    jharp (f8a6a3)

  150. By the way, this is something many USAns don’t realise: one of the things the USA founders did was redefine treason. Rather than being centered on the sovereign, it’s centered on the USA itself. So making war on the USA, or adhering to the USA’s enemies, is treason; but harming the president is not. The president is just another citizen, and his person is not special, at least as far as the constitution is concerned.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  151. So sleeping with kate middleton is treason how?

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  152. C.S.P. Schofield, one wonders if any of the Al Queda / Muslim Brotherhood intellects ever read Culture and Carnage.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  153. Gloria Steinham thinks porn debases women.

    methinks the ugly stick debased Gloria Steinham.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  154. So oppisition to gay marriage oppresses women?

    How the hell are hetero women oppressed by opponents of gay marriage Gloria Seeingred?

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  155. EPWJ may want to think about getting his mangina mutilated. Don’t Muslim men claim it helps control their women better?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  156. So sleeping with kate middleton is treason how?

    Can’t you read? I explicitly wrote that it isn’t treason, and won’t be even after the wedding, until the Queen dies.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  157. Sleeping with the bride of a royal prince is called champertisment, which is petit treason in the court of commonwealth equity.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  158. Sorry.

    I oppose islam and if it defends eric’s ego oh frickin well.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  159. Christianity accepts the premise that all people are of free will, and that the decisions they make will determine their entry into Heaven. Islam removes free will by saying that all things are predetermined by Allah and that what ever action a true believer takes, it was predetermined by Allah, absolving the person for their own actions.

    I will assume that you aren’t a Presbyterian or member of the Dutch Reformed or similar church, or are otherwise familiar with Calvinism.
    (Not to knock Calvinism, from which sprang Puritanism and ultimately the New England colonies.) If you aren’t, check out what it teaches on the matter of predestination and election. And note that believing in the overriding power of God’s Will does not, in their view, conflict with the justice of eternal damnation.

    What other “religion” do you know that dictates which direction you must face when urinating?

    I’ll have to check the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch (which is the most fundamentalist text I have handy) to see what it says on that point–but Jewish law can be very specific, and it wouldn’t surprise me to find a halachic (Jewish legal) directive with instructions on that subject. There is, after all, a halachically ordained way to put on and tie you shoes (put on the right shoe , put on the left shoe, tie the left shoe, tie the right shoe, IIRC–it’s not one of the points I even pretend to be observant about) and other matters that might seem rather nitpicky.

    kishnevi (2d88a8)

  160. SPQR,

    If they have, I doubt seriously that they understood the implications. Their experience of Western Thought is largely confined to the chinless wonders of the United Nations set. They have no idea just how different, practical, and effectively violent the rank and file of the U.S. is. Like the Confederates, they probably think that fervor will trump equipment, training, and professionalism. And they probably have NO CLUE how often U.S. citizens make themselves semi-professional at violence for the fun of it.

    When and if we finally lose our collective temper, hell is going to go for a stroll down to the local Mosque with its sleeves rolled up. It isn’t going to be good for us as a people, but I admit that watching certain types get slapped across the chops is going to warm the cockles of my heart.

    C. S. P. Schofield (8b1968)

  161. Kman,

    I’m sorry, but what the hell was supposed to be the point of your last comment – that “enlightened” feminists such as yourself are cool with porn now so piddly side issues like honor killings are of no concern?

    Blue Ox (ff919a)

  162. Surrrrrrrrrrrre there is.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  163. kisnevi, I don’t know about Presbyterianism, but just how popular do you think Calvinism or the Dutch Reform churches are in this day and time? And are the shoe instructions found in the Torah? Does the Torah teach that anyone of another faith is a monkey or a pig, and that the rocks will shout out that there is an infidel hiding behind them and to come an kill the infidel?

    retire05 (2d538e)

  164. BTW, Judaism does indeed have rules at least as detailed as Islam’s, and at least as pervasive.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  165. Yeah but you don’t hear of jews lopping off people’s hands for violation.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  166. The shoe thing issues from a basic principle, that priority should always be given to the right, except when tying knots, in which priority should be given to the left because the tefillin are tied on the left arm. So when putting on any garment, including shoes, the right should go first; but when tying the shoes the left goes first. It’s no huge deal if things are done out of their proper order, but there is a proper order for all things; the world is not random.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  167. Presumably those who are into BDSM should tie their partner up from the left :-)

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  168. somewhat OT, but since Aaron started the thread long ago:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/29/business/media/29logan.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

    narciso (79ddc3)

  169. Catholic church opposes gay marriage-wrong

    Islam opposes gay marriage and kills-not wrong.

    Governor Mcgreevey cheated on his wife so the catholic church should say no even if he were hetero.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  170. Anyways muslims are swuch subhuman scum.

    I mean honestly killing someone for not wearing a burqa?

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  171. muslims are NOT subhuman scum that my friend is hyperbole like for example when wang chung says for everybody to wang chung tonight they don’t really mean for everybody in the whole world to wang chung tonight cause that would be crazy and nonsensical they just mean for a certain perhaps sizable subset of individuals to wang chung

    so it’s the same thing with muslims – some of them are not a lot of fun at all but lots and lots of them are entirely unproblematic

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  172. let’s not miss the point. The problem with the people who threaten to kill over speech or want to oppress women, or blow up innocent people, is their hatred and intolerance. A lot of these people are Muslims, but the problem with them is much more specific than their being Muslim, and to say the problem is simply Islam actually misses the point.

    that’s what the radicals want you to do. They want to establish that they are the one true Islam.

    Now, what is the endgame for our war on terror? I think it probably isn’t the eradication of Islam, but rather to make the crazies act like the Muslims who don’t blow people up (often by eliminating them).

    Dustin (c16eca)

  173. “Sleeping with the bride of a royal prince is called champertisment…”

    It’s also called having atrocious taste in women, with the possible exception of Grace Kelly.

    If my friends ever catch me doing the hoizontal bop with Camilla, I pray they’ll have the good grace to put me out of my misery.

    Dave Surls (910d5a)

  174. Seriously, it does confirm the notion, that Charles
    is deeply clueless, almost as much as Edward V1

    narciso (79ddc3)

  175. What other “religion” do you know that dictates which direction you must face when urinating?

    Whatever your religion, I suggest that you refrain from pissing into the wind.

    Tanny O'Haley (12193c)

  176. Seriously, it does confirm the notion, that Charles is deeply clueless, almost as much as Edward V1

    Is that meant to be a 5 or a 6? Do you mean Edward 5, the Prince In The Tower? Or Edward 6, Henry 8’s son who died as a teenager? Either way, what makes you think of him as clueless? Whichever Edward, that is, not Charles.

    On another note, I wonder whether these jihadists believe the rumours that Charles is a secret Moslem, and whether it would matter to them if they did.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  177. ”Sleeping with the bride of a royal prince is called champertisment…”

    For the benefit of those who didn’t follow the link, Dustin was joking.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  178. retire05, no, but it does teach that stolen rocks and other building materials will shout out who they belong to. (Which has sort of come true, with talking car alarms that come on after a few minutes and blare “I am stolen; call the police”.)

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  179. I looked it up over dinnertime: the KSA doesn’t give directions on which direction to face, but it does give instructions, most of them common sense–don’t defecate in the presence of others, don’t expose oneself when preparing to answer a call of nature, don’t hold oneself by a certain place and to think about business matters on weekdays and interesting non-business matters while in the lavatory (so that you don’t think about holy subjects, which is forbidden in a bathroom, or get tempted to think sexual thoughts, which is forbidden, period).
    There is, by the way, a specific blessing to be said upon completing the task and washing up (thoroughly, to make sure you have no excreted material on you).
    To get a taste of how detailed things can get, here is a parody of both Christmas and the Kitzur Schulchan Aruch :
    http://www.jewishworldreview.com1298/kringler1.asp
    (although the original form in which I saw this lacks the last two sections, which are parodies of the Passover Haggadah).

    My main point, retire05, was not to defend Islam, but to point out that the desire to follow the Divine Teachings in “all your ways” extends to everything humans being do, including going to the bathroom. It may not be a religious viewpoint you, as (I assume) a Christian, share, but it exists and it’s not a sign of barbarism, as you seem to think. And Calvinism was a very mainstream form of Christianity,which does believe God decides who is and who is not going to the Other Place–possibly the predominant form at the time of the Revolution. I’ll leave it to others to say how important its ideas are among modern American Christians.

    kishnevi (1b86f1)

  180. Comment by Dustin — 4/28/2011 @ 4:51 pm
    in complete agreement with you there.

    kishnevi (1b86f1)

  181. ‘I have always abided by what men say. As a result I developed an extreme desire for freedom. I feel like Che Guevara. I have to do everything I want, otherwise I feel like I may as well be dead.’

    Ms. Sahin might look amazing but she is one really confused chick. I don’t think she has a clue who Che Guevara really was. It seems she has romanticized him like most young people roaming college campuses with his image stamped across their their t-shirts.

    And, because of that, I also am curious about her method chosen to express her freedom: She takes her clothes off to give men pleasure. Isn’t that yet another form of putting a man’s wants before hers, or perhaps a form of surrender and/or submission?

    It doesn’t strike me as any sort of solid stand for freedom she has made but instead, trading one form of objectification for another. But I guess at least this time, she is the one making the choice.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  182. Narciso, how does “V1″ mean 8? And what exactly was clueless about the Duke of Windsor, anyway? He may not have been the nicest man on the planet, but I’ve never heard of him being thought stupid.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  183. Could we come up with an identification system to tell the radical muslims apart from the moderate muslims? Maybe have them wear some identifying symbol on their clothes, green crescent and star for non-radical, red for radical, or exploding bomb for radical? One problem I see is that muslims have claimed to be moderates but upon closer examination have proved to be actually very radical. There is something in Islamic doctrine covering this I believe.

    Who to trust, who to trust.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  184. Most muslims are subhuman scum while some aren’t

    Happy now?

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  185. “Most muslims are subhuman scum while some aren’t”

    DohBiden – I have friends who have friends that claim to have muslim friends who are not subhuman scum.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  186. Most muslims are subhuman scum while some aren’t

    Happy now?

    Comment by DohBiden

    Don’t get me wrong: I do not really have a problem with the fact Islam has a massive PR problem. If Muslims want to correct that, I think they have to face other Muslims. However, I’m happy to just say subhuman scumbags are subhuman scumbags. It’s not the Islam part that bothers me. They can believe whatever stupid nonsense they want, so long as they respect the rights of others.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  187. Seriously — why does jharp even bother, anymore?

    Icy Texan (d5691b)

  188. Sila Sahin would
    get no rest and would drown in
    colonel’s drool love goo

    ColonelHaiku (cdd0f9)

  189. Col, are you declaring another chubwa?

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  190. haiku not only
    look at magazine foldout
    colonel ruin it!

    ColonelHaiku (cdd0f9)


  191. Eric: we are not going to solve this problem by pretending there is no problem.


    True, but if Eric gets his head much further up his ass it’s going to pop back out of the top.

    Since that’s physically impossible, we ought to be able to study him and figure out a space-folding FTL drive and then the smart ones among us can leave these #$%#%$^%$ Islamofascists and their chickenshit apologists to enjoy the hell they both seek, utterly cluelessly, to make of Earth.

    Smock Puppet (c9dcd8)


  192. Liberalism is definately a mental disorder.


    Nothing that can’t be quite effectively solved by a long, painful***, and extensive series of trepannings.

    =======================
    ***Yes, I know the brain doesn’t have pain sensors. I was thinking of multiple skull drillings with a dull circular saw at slow speed, with no anesthesia.

    Smock Puppet (c9dcd8)


  193. And this is precisely why it is important to protect Koran burning by Terry Jones, even if you dislike it.

    It really doesn’t matter if you like it or dislike it, folks.

    While it’s a fair bet Jones has the wrong justifications for his actions (or at least shoddily reasoned ones), it’s still the right thing to do!!

    The Iterated Prisoner’s Dilemma.

    The best rule for playing The Game (which is, essentially, a primary part of The Game of Life) is a rule set basically called “tit-for-tat with occasional forgiveness”.

    In other words, they commit an outrage, and we do something to outrage them back — all the while making it quite clear: “Stop this shit, and we’ll stop doing it in return… YOUR MOVE”.

    We need to take the body of anyone killed for acts of terrorism, coat the body with pig fat and pig shit, wrap the body in pigskin, then burn the body, and scatter the remains in a pig sty. Don’t like it? Don’t commit an act of terrorism. Pretty simple, huh?

    We need to place a gallon of pig’s blood on every airline flight, train coach, and bus trip. What, you, Joe Islam, no longer want to fly or use mass transit? Awwwwww. My heart is broken. Sniff.

    Every time Islamic individuals commit murder, we burn a Koran in every major Anglo-European city, then flush the ashes down a toilet.

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)


  194. my impression is william did the same. i think the royals take it seriously for 2 reasons.

    You missed the third, Aaron:

    Noblesse obligé.

    It appears to have skipped a generation, but the Queen’s blood appears to have brought forth an actual pair of nobles.

    I still couldn’t give a rat’s ass about the marriage, but I respect them, unlike their father or mother, as a direct result of this.

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)

  195. look i have mixed feelings about that song. its use of the term “china men” is dubious

    Oh, GEEZ, are they NOT from China?

    Kung Fu IS Chinese, Aaron. It’s not talking about China men breaking into Judo or Sumo poses.

    “Asians”? If that was where it was going, and I’m pretty sure it was, then I’M OFFENDED.

    When you replace “Oriental” (itself nothing but a descriptor of a REGION and the people of that region) with “Asian” (a descriptor of a REGION, and the people OF that region…. excepting that the people in question only represent about a 4th to a 3rd of the ACTUAL people in that region called “Asia”… you know, overtly excluding Sauds, Persians, Georgians, White Russians, Siberians, Indians, Pakistanis, and so forth…) — Well, I have to say, I find THAT offensive.

    “Oh, but THEY find it offensive, and we have to be sensitive to their feeeeeeelings.”

    REALLY?
    Ok, the Japanese word for “Foreigner” is “Gaijin”. The word has an alternate meaning. “Barbarian”. So anyone NOT from Japan is a “Barbarian”? And I’m supposed to be concerned with them being offended by my use of “Jap”, say, as a simple contraction for the overly long “Japanese” (Not Nip, Gook, Slant, or one of the other real slang pejoratives, but ‘Jap’)?

    Similarly for Chinese — the Chinese word for ‘Foreigner” also translates to ‘Devil’. So EVERYONE else is a ‘Devil’, and I’m supposed to be concerned by the “massive” insult of “Man from China”?

    In real fact the cultures we’re speaking of — the Oriental ones — are usually FAR more xenophobic than most Euro-descended cultures: “Either you are one of us, or you’re evil or ugly.”

    I believe we’ve crossed rather risibly into looneyland here…?


    and is the singer’s image of asian people just breaking out into kung fu.

    Noooo, Aaron. Not “Asian” people breaking out into Kung Fu.

    CHINAMEN. You know — people from… Gasp!?!?!

    China!!

    And as far as “breaking out into Kung Fu…”
    1) This is China…right?
    2) This is a Chinese Martial Art we’re talking about.
    3) The song came out in 1974, at the height of the “chopsocky” craze and not that long after Nixon’s China visits had pictures of massed Chinese people doing morning exercises (like, say, THIS) introduced as a meme into people’s minds.

    So while it’s not likely to happen spontaneously and without cause, yeah, you CAN see a whole lot of Chinamen breaking into Kung Fu exercises.


    but its still a fun song, and even the asian americans i know sing along and like it. and its part of kitchey culture now.

    That’s the point, Aaron. It’s a GOOFY SONG.

    Are you going to rail next about Alley Oop and its blatantly faulty depiction of humans and dinosaurs roaming at the same time?

    No, wait, let’s get incensed by Ahab the Arab!!

    Or The Purple People Eater, which clearly suggests… GASP!?!?! Cannibalism!!

    I believe this all falls under the heading of “Perpetual Indignance”, or, for those of you familiar with Bloom County, “Offensensitivity

    Q.E.D., I believe I’ve amply defended the notion that your idea — distaste for the memes of the song — are rather risible and very unusually contemptuous for you.

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)


  196. Where are those Christians condemnations?

    1) I would rather challenge you to find a mass of Christians who support this. Not saying it’s not possible, but they will be a small, obscure sect, if so. Even more extreme Baptists generally won’t claim this is acceptable, or attempt to defend his actions.


    Which honor killings?
    The ones decreed by the Christian bible?

    2) There is NO such thing as a “Christian Honor Killing” — some such things may have occurred more than 300 or 400 years ago (and are NOT called for by the New Testament in any way — cite the New Testament verse if you claim otherwise), but “we’ve risen above that” — and yes, that means I expect ANYONE on the planet to rise above that if they want to claim equal status in civilized society.

    3) The most commonly cited verses that suggest violence at all are OLD Testament, which is fully superseded by the New Testament. Even this article notes that this idiot claimed the OT as his “guide”/argument.

    4) Did you see anyone in the comments actually supporting this action? No, most even made the same point, that it’s OT, not NT, and hence not Christian at all.

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)

  197. If my friends ever catch me doing the hoizontal bop with Camilla, I pray they’ll have the good grace to put me out of my misery.

    Hey, you never know. In person, she might just Bowle you over.

    Smock Puppet (c9dcd8)


  198. I do not really have a problem with the fact Islam has a massive PR problem.


    BW-AAAAAAAhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha….

    Geez, what a maroon.

    Yeah, they’ve ONLY got the ENTIRE US & EURO MEDIA COMPLEX covering up their endless sh**, ignoring their barbaric actions, looking the other way when they commit atrocities, or doing their best to downplay and/or sweep under the rug anything that they can’t utterly ignore.

    Who needs a PR firm when 98% of the reporters on the planet are shilling for you?

    The “PR” problem is more one of the like that they AREN’T held accountable in the WORLD’s eyes, and CONTINUE to operate under the denial-mode delusion that they AREN’T the biggest problem facing the human race.

    Even an IDIOT who actually was open to rational consideration of the matter would notice that ISLAM IS ONE OF THE TWO PARTIES involved in something like 80% of the world’s conflicts.

    That’s not “Bad PR” — that’s “Doesn’t Play Well With Others” — and that’s not the fault of “The Others” when it’s that widespread…

    I repeat: YOU are a maroon.

    Smock Puppet (c9dcd8)

  199. > Muslims do not believe in jesus you dhimmi.
    OK, actually this is “sort of” incorrect.

    They believe in him but only that he was a mere prophet no different than moho or moses, rather than the unique being Christianity takes him to be (note: lower case ‘H’s intentional).

    As a result, they can’t get into Heaven, but that’s not quite the same as saying he was “no one in particular”, as, say, a Wiccan or Confucian would say.

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)


  200. I’ve always thought prosperity itself is the greatest solution to radical Islam. It feeds on human misery and the cheapness of life itself, and anyone can see it is pure evil.

    It should, but it also has to be associated with teaching a positive outlook of modern culture. Most of the 911 people and many of the more intentional suicide bombers have been reasonably well off and college educated.

    So prosperity and schooling are not enough to counteract the mind-poison of Islam. There’s something else that must be applied. What exact thing that is I’m not certain.

    but harming the president is not. The president is just another citizen, and his person is not special, at least as far as the Constitution is concerned.

    Yeah, but our modern Entrenched Nobility have long since changed that with passage of various laws, Milhouse.

    The key words you use that retains the truth of your statement is “as far as the Constitution is concerned”.

    Lots of laws, right and left, which render special protection onto members of Congress, the SCotUS, and the Executive branch at the slightest threat. In most cases, even FORMER members get substantial extra protection or attention in the event of threats, for life. Make a threat against Barbara Bush — now 20 years out of significance — and the Secret Service will be on you like red on tomato paste.

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.6453 secs.