Patterico's Pontifications

4/22/2011

The Truth About Trig Trutherism

Filed under: General — Stranahan @ 12:23 pm



[Guest Post by Lee Stranahan]

Although it’s coming a couple of years too late, Justin Elliott at Salon has written the definitive takedown of ‘Trig Trutherism’ and it comes to the same conclusion I did when I looked into the matter a couple of years ago …

Trig Trutherism, the surprisingly resilient conspiracy theory that Sarah Palin is not actually the mother of 3-year-old Trig Palin, is experiencing a boomlet thanks to a new academic paper that endorses the concept. Long pursued by the blogger Andrew Sullivan and a significant segment of the Palin-hating left, Trig Trutherism holds that Trig’s real mother is either Bristol Palin or some third party, and that Sarah Palin herself faked the pregnancy to avoid embarrassment for her daughter or for political gain or some combination of reasons.

In light of the recent attention this subject has received and the considerable passion it has stirred, Salon embarked last week on an investigation of the circumstances surrounding Trig’s birth. The exhaustive review of available evidence that we conducted, along with new interviews with multiple eyewitnesses who interacted with a pregnant Sarah Palin up-close in early 2008 — most of whom had never spoken publicly about the matter before — has produced one clear conclusion: Sarah Palin is, indeed, Trig’s mother and there is no reason to suspect any kind of a coverup.

We’ve learned, for instance, that an Associated Press reporter in Alaska who was covering Palin during her pregnancy in early 2008 (before she became a national figure) thoroughly investigated rumors that the pregnancy was a hoax. The reporter directly questioned Palin about the matter in a private meeting in her Juneau office before she gave birth. Gov. Palin responded by voluntarily lifting her outer layer of clothing, offering a clear look at her round belly. The reporter quickly concluded that there was no truth to the rumors and never wrote about them. (emphasis mine)

Will it satisfy the unsatisfiable? Of course not. Towards the end of his piece, Elliott covers the epistemological point well, discussing Andrew Sullivan’s seeming inability to accept reality on this issue.

Sullivan’s refrain on this issue is that he does not endorse any conspiracy theory, he is merely asking questions. He simply wants Palin "to debunk this for once and for all, with simple, readily available medical records." He hasproposed, for example, the release of "amniocentesis results with Sarah Palin’s name on them."

It’s worth noting that this posture is identical to the rhetoric used by Obama birthers (for instance, WorldNetDaily Birther czar Joseph Farah employs the "just asking for definitive piece of proof x" line here).

But the larger point is that continuously demanding more "proof" on an issue about which there is already overwhelming evidence is either irrational or disingenuous. And why would a piece of paper with amniocentesis results and Sarah Palin’s name be more dispositive than the doctor’s many statements and the testimony of all of the reporters who saw Palin pregnant? If you already believe everyone is lying and everything is a hoax, it wouldn’t.

– Lee Stranahan

669 Responses to “The Truth About Trig Trutherism”

  1. Social security should be reformed.

    Also make survivors benefits seperate from Social Security.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  2. Lee, sorry for putting up that post too fast. i didn’t see it until after i hit publish.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  3. On topic Trig Trutherism is caused by syphillis induced dementia.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  4. There are a lot of bitter moonbats venting at the Salon piece’s author in the comments there–that’ll teach him not to drink deeply enough of the PDS Kool-Aid.

    MSE (071603)

  5. If Andrew Sullivan every read anything about children with Down’s Syndrome, he would know that it is more likely for an older mother to give birth to a child so afflicted. But that would be way too much trouble for him and also, he wouldn’t be able to raise the conspiracy theories. What a fool.

    PatAZ (81cf34)

  6. Why is it the birthers are viewed as out of the mainstream, but mainstream leftist like Sully who has taken up residence in Palin’s uterus, is not outside the mainstream?

    JD (0d2ffc)

  7. Don’t say “Sully” and “stream” in the same sentence! *SHIVER*

    Icy Texan (82fcef)

  8. While not a birther, equivocating birthers to trig truthers is ridiculous. One is about the constitutional requirement to hold the highest elected office in the United States, the other is about if a woman is the real mother of a child, which has to do with…what exactly?

    RFN (5c3099)

  9. The court of public disinformation opinion, RFN. That’s what it’s all about.

    Icy Texan (82fcef)

  10. I know that Sullivan is an appealing target.

    But the need for blog posts to demonstrate that he’s crazy in general, and crazy in particular on issues relating to Palin, was surely adequately met by the end of 2009.

    You’re just feeding a colossal troll now.

    Beldar (cd529f)

  11. “Andrew Sullivan”

    That guy is a poster boy for undesirable aliens.

    We should have booted his worthless ass out of the United States a long, long time ago.

    Dave Surls (8fdfa8)

  12. I used to read his blog and even contributed. Then, he started to behave irrationally and I once sent him a serious (private) e-mail asking if he was having any trouble with his meds. I’m a physician who has treated AIDS patients.

    Well, you can imagine the return reply ! I would have had to use asbestos paper to print it out. I quit reading him about then.

    Mike K (8f3f19)

  13. Boy! Write a column about Sarah Palin in a lefty journal and watch the hate roll in !

    Mike K (8f3f19)

  14. Beldar – A little judgement please! The words Sully and appealing in the same sentence?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  15. Sully is only appealing to antisemites.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  16. There’s one aspect in which the Birthers and the Trig Troothers are exactly equivalent.

    If Barack Obama wants to be elected President, he should be required to show his original “long form” birth certificate.

    Similarly, if Trig Palin wants to be elected President, he should be required to show his original “long form” birth certificate.

    Murgatroyd (fd5fcd)

  17. Similarly if Helen Thomas wants to be president………….aaaaaaaaaah never rmind.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  18. What Birthers and Trig Truthers have in common is fanaticism and imperviousness to facts.

    Angeleno (2ffd38)

  19. Hell has frozen over because I agree with Angeleno

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  20. ______________________________________

    I’m a physician who has treated AIDS patients.

    I wonder if that disease has squeezed out whatever logic and common sense he once had? Or if his homosexuality, which seems to trigger or exacerbate leftist instincts, beat him to it?

    Mark (411533)

  21. While not a birther, equivocating birthers to trig truthers is ridiculous. One is about the constitutional requirement to hold the highest elected office in the United States, the other is about if a woman is the real mother of a child, which has to do with…what exactly?

    Exactly. I’m with Tim McGuire, in being shocked that there is no mechanism to check the eligibility of presidential candidates, and in refusing to take Obama’s word even when we’re 99% sure he’s telling the truth. He’s covering something up, and we want to know what, although we’re pretty sure it’s something fairly trivial. But Mrs Palin has nothing to prove; if Trig weren’t her son it would mean nothing except that she’s a liar, and since there’s no reason in the world to suspect that there’s no reason she should have to prove that she’s not. If there were actual evidence that Trig was not her son, and therefore that a major part of her story is false, then I would agree she should do what she can to prove that she’s telling the truth; but there is no such evidence, so everyone should just take her word for it and shut up.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  22. Cool story Milhouse, but the President has already released the only legally valid birth certificate that Hawaii offers. That’s not his word, that’s the word of Hawaii. And to challenge that is to challenge the right of a state to determine how it records and releases vital statistics.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  23. “What Birthers and Trig Truthers have in common is fanaticism and imperviousness to facts.”

    What they don’t have in common is that Sarah Palin’s pregnancy is nobody else’s business, while Bambi’s citizenship status is, since we have the idiotic requirement that presidents be born U.S. citizens.

    Sarah Palin doesn’t have to prove that she was pregnant to anybody, for any reason, Bambi, OTOH, ought to have to prove that he was born a U.S. citizen, if he wants to be elected POTUS.

    If we’re going to have the moronic, you have to be born a U.S. citizen requirement, we ought to have a law detailing how that should be done exactly, and we ought to have a remedy, in law, for what we do if it turns out someone isn’t a born citizen and gets elected president, anyway.

    The Birthers have some legitimate points and bitches, the Trig loons are simply loons.

    As for Andrew Sullivan, he isn’t an American, and how we handle our stuff is none of his limey-ass business.

    He’s a completely worthless piece of crap, who has never done a useful thing in his entire life. He rakes muck for a living (parasite on society…no value whatsoever), he has a foul infectious disease that he’s for sure going to spread to others, thanks to his deviant sexual habits, and he wastes U.S. taxpayer money when he gets busted for smoking dope, and we then have to waste legal system resources to resolve his petty criminal activities.

    This guy should have been shown the door a long time ago. If he wants to have promiscuous anal sex, and spew hogwash about Sarah Palin, let him do it in jolly Old England. He’s their problem, not ours.

    Deport him.

    Dave Surls (8fdfa8)

  24. ok so do we know who the father is?

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  25. _________________________________________

    That’s not his word, that’s the word of Hawaii.

    The top politician in that state, who is of the left, apparently is interested in a bit more confirmation and verification, if only as a means to quiet the skeptics.

    BTW, I’m under the impression that even if a person is not born on US soil but is the offspring of an American citizen, that he or she (ie, the child) automatically becomes one too, meaning he can still be designated as naturalized. So my interest in all the ambiguity relates to what other type of embarrassment the guy in the Oval Office may very well be trying to conceal.

    dailymail.co.uk, January 2011:

    [Hawaii Governor Neil] Abercrombie said on Tuesday that an investigation had unearthed papers proving Obama was born in Hawaii in 1961.

    But it became apparent that what had been discovered was an unspecified listing or notation of Obama’s birth that someone had made in the state archives and not a birth certificate.

    And in the same interview Abercrombie suggested that a long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate for Barack Obama may not exist within the vital records maintained by the Hawaii Department of Health.

    Mark (411533)

  26. Mark, that “interview” wasn’t actually conducted with Abercrombie. And the person who started the rumor mill has since admitted he didn’t mean Abercrombie and that he just had a brain fart. That story was covered on this website.

    Or is it all a coverup? Maybe they got to them!

    Joking aside, you might want to read up on what the State of Hawaii has said on the matter.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  27. ok so do we know who the father is?

    Comment by happyfeet — 4/22/2011 @ 4:32 pm

    You are resembling scum to an ever greater degree, happyfeet. On an hourly basis.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  28. hey Mr. SPQR did you go play with google’s logo today? I guess it’s cause of erf day. My favorite is the pander bear and also the bear what catches the fish at the top of the waterfall.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  29. #24 Newtons.Bit said

    “Cool story Milhous, but the President has already releast the only legally vaid birth certificate that Hawaii offers. That’s not his word, that’s the word of Hawaii.”

    Well, Newtons.Bit, in this day and age of easy internet research, you should learn to not make statements that are blatantly false.

    #1, the State of Hawaii never made the claim that the document Obama provided (the day after it appeared on DailyKos) was the only type of birth certificate it issued. So for you to claim it did, is a bold faced lie. What the Hawaiian officals said was that they were in posession of Obama’s birth certificate. They NEVER said what was on it.

    And………………

    here is information on being able to apply for Hawaiian Home Lands:

    Primary Documents

    Birth certificates (Certificates of Live Birth and Certifications of Live Birth) and Certificates of Hawaiian Birth are the primary documents used to determine native Hawaiian qualification.

    The Department of Hawaiian Home Lands accepts both Certificates of Live Birth (original birth certificate) and Certifications of Live Birth because they are offical government records documenting an individual’s birth. The Certificate of Live Birth has more information which is useful for genealogical purposes as compared to the Certification of Live Birth which is a computer generated printout that provides specific details of a person’s birth. (Obama has claimed that the second type, the Certification of Live Birth, is all he has, yet he says in his book he found his original bc in a book left by his mother)

    http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov

    So what Obama has presented to the world, via DailyKos, would not necessarily allow him, if he were a Native Hawaiian, to claim Hawaiian Home Lands benefits.

    Then there is this odd little tid-bit on the Hawaiian state website:

    [S338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of state

    Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immedidately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.

    (b) Proof of legal residency shall be sumitted to the director of health in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate. The director of health may also adopt any rules pursuant to chapter 91 that he or she may deem necessary or proper to prevent fradulent applications for birth certificates and to require any further information or proof of events necessary for completion of a birth certificate.

    http://www.capitol.hawaii/gov

    What this statute basically tells us is that a child can be born out of the Territory or State of Hawaii and still get a Hawaiin birth certificate IF the parents were legal residents of the Territory or State of Hawaii for one year preceding to the birth of a child.

    So, right there you have FOUR differnt types of Hawaiian birth certificates. And the one that Obama has claimed is the real deal, would have to be supplemented with other information and data in order for him to claim Native Hawaiian Home Lands benefits if he were a Native Hawaiian.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  30. happyfeet, I don’t celebrate Lenin’s birthday.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  31. That’s what I like about feets, you can slag him off ’til the cows come home, and he never gets excited about it.

    Dave Surls (27e17c)

  32. And you missed it entirely, retire05. The state of Hawaii only issues one birth certificate now. And it’s the “Certified Copy of Birth Record”. Here’s where you can apply for the one and only birth certificate. There’s just one that Obama can now get. Here’s where you can applied to get the certified

    Please see the Hawaii state law on the matter. The state law rules forbid releasing the microfilm copy of the original document. At least until Obama is 75 years of age or older.

    There is nothing else that can be released.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  33. And my post has a ridiculous error in it. Lovely.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  34. Newton.Bit, the State of Hawaii only issues ONE birth certificate NOW. But Obama wasn’t born NOW, was he? When he was born, the state of Hawaii issued all those different types of BCs.

    So yes, any duplicate issued NOW would be the Certification of Live Birth. But I guess you want me to believe that if the President of the United States asked the State of Hawaii for a copy of the microfilmed original document, he couldn’t get it?

    Yeah, right. No wonder he is helpless to keep gas below $4/gallon.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  35. Newton.Bit, it is clear that the original is available to the registrant. Do you understand what that means?

    retire05 (2d538e)

  36. The state law rules forbid releasing the microfilm copy of the original document. At least until Obama is 75 years of age or older.

    I am unable to find the provision that so states, although I admit to skimming quickly. Could you kindly quote it?

    Also, what is your theory as to why your pronouncement differs so markedly from those issued by those who maintain custody of the certificate, who have repeatedly explained that it cannot be released except with Obama’s permission?

    Patterico (c218bd)

  37. The Birther issue can be resolved in short order if Congress will just pass a law establishing a proceedure that presidential candidates must follow in order to demonstrate that they qualify to be president…but, I doubt if they will.

    Dave Surls (002361)

  38. Lee,

    Kudos for posting this. From the comments, we see many victims of the same crippled epistemology asking about the Obama birth certificate. As noted in the Salon article:

    Sullivan’s refrain on this issue is that he does not endorse any conspiracy theory, he is merely asking questions. He simply wants Palin “to debunk this for once and for all, with simple, readily available medical records.” He has proposed, for example, the release of “amniocentesis results with Sarah Palin’s name on them.”

    It’s worth noting that this posture is identical to the rhetoric used by Obama birthers (for instance, WorldNetDaily Birther czar Joseph Farah employs the “just asking for definitive piece of proof x” line here).

    Just asking questions, indeed.

    HuffPo has apparently decided to ban Trig Truthers. While our generous host tends to permit all points of view, this blog would not suffer if it decided to ban Obama ‘birthers.’ It’s embarassing to read some of this stuff.

    On the bright side, if bills like the one recently vetoed in AZ are passed, we won’t have any eligible candidates for president. That will be interesting.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  39. Insanity is just the default setting:

    http://americanpowerblog.blogspot.com/2011/04/inside-job-more-than-half-of-democrats.html

    Comment by narciso — 4/22/2011 @ 3:19 pm

    narciso – that was 2006. In 2011, the only 9/11 “truthers” left are all Ron Paul types. Once Obama was elected, the lefty truthers kind of dropped it, since it didn’t fit their current paradigm.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  40. The propensity to believe crazy things, plus recall Van Jones, Although Alex Jones, who was given a
    ‘puff piece’ write up in RS, is more of the type.

    narciso (79ddc3)

  41. You are making my point for me. Alex Jones, yes. People like Van Jones are relics. He probably signed that petition at the height of Bush Derangement Syndrome and never thought about it again, until it cost him his job.

    I’m on a 9/11 “truth” mailing list (as a sociological experiment), and it’s all “audit the fed” “buy gold” and “ron paul.” I have never seen a single liberal thought from these guys. I have read a reasonably scientific study in Skeptic magazine that came to the same conclusion.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  42. LIHOP and MIHOP are common beliefs amongst even the pedestrian trolls here.

    JD (318f81)

  43. Ah yes there’s that ‘pepper’ fellow, but one wonders why they would allow this;
    http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/03/10/david-frum-huffington-post-takes-a-tumble-over-truther/

    narciso (79ddc3)

  44. DCSCA has five letters.

    LIHOP has five letters.

    Coincidence?

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  45. JOOOO has 5 letters too. So does Kochs. I sense a pattern developing.

    JD (318f81)

  46. AP has the same problem, in atleast describing events

    http://excellenceinamerica.com/?p=1634

    narciso (79ddc3)

  47. Obama has 5 letters too. Coincidence? I think not.

    JD (318f81)

  48. narciso, you’re still agreeing with me. From the National Post article:

    Paul Craig Roberts …

    omitted some relevant facts from Roberts’ biography:

    * Roberts is a 9/11 denialist, who has stated his views emphatically, repeatedly, and unabashedly for nearly a decade, eg here.

    * Roberts believes that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 reduced whites to second-class citizenship.

    Again, the 9/11 truth thing just isn’t leftist these days. Most of them are Ron Paul types.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  49. Well, it’s a very stupid notion, that the likes of Froomkin, sought to highlight, Ray McGovern, one of those behind the Plame scam, at VIPS, is yet another one

    narciso (79ddc3)

  50. I just discovered the truth about Trig. It is so weird no one will believe it.

    He’s a cute little guy with a genetic disorder that means he will be able to grow up with a loving family that is somehow unusual because of politics. The weird thing, though, is he will need the help of that family as long as he lives. The strangest thing, though, is the family doesn’t care because he is part of this weird family.

    I mean, how is this possible? No family has ever had to do
    this before. Except the Kennedys and they were perfect. What with the lobotomies and all.

    Ag80 (6134b7)

  51. Patterico: here’s the law. I’m not a lawyer so I may be interpreting it incorrectly. But the meet is this:

    §338-18 Disclosure of records. (a) To protect the integrity of vital statistics records, to ensure their proper use, and to ensure the efficient and proper administration of the vital statistics system, it shall be unlawful for any person to permit inspection of, or to disclose information contained in vital statistics records, or to copy or issue a copy of all or part of any such record, except as authorized by this part or by rules adopted by the department of health.
    (b) The department shall not permit inspection of public health statistics records, or issue a certified copy of any such record or part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant has a direct and tangible interest in the record. The following persons shall be considered to have a direct and tangible interest in a public health statistics record:

    The law states that the “public health statistics records”, which I assume to mean the microfilm of the original document can only be inspected by someone with a tangible interest. Obama has that interest. He can inspect it. But they’re not giving him a complete copy or a xerox of that specific document. The only information they publish is on the certified copy that Obama has already released. I think that the information on that certified document is part of the rules the law allows the HHS to create. They could change it to include other things, such as birth mother, birth father or whatever, but it’s extremely irrelevant to the question of whether Obama was born in Hawaii or not.

    Here’s the part of the law that allows release of the microfilm after 75 years to anyone:

    (e) The department may permit persons working on genealogy projects access to microfilm or other copies of vital records of events that occurred more than seventy-five years prior to the current year.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  52. I don’t understand this theory. I don’t know why anybody is wasting time “researching” and “finding evidence”.

    Trig Palin was born April 18, 2008.

    Trip Palin was born December 29, 2008.

    That’s 8 months, two weeks. Trip was full-term; so in order for Trig to be Bristol’s kid, Bristol had to get pregnant with Trip 2 weeks before she gave birth to Trig.

    That is simply put, impossible. An impossible scientific fact should be sufficient to put to rest any rational discussion of a “conspiracy”.

    ON the other hand, there is a big difference between asking for the one piece of proof that is universally accepted for establishing birth (a birth certificate) and asking a woman to release personal, private medical information that would not actually prove anything.

    Charles (90b880)

  53. The point, Charles, is that people are continuing to ask for Obama’s birth certificate after he’s released his birth certificate. That’s just as insane as asking Palin to prove that Trig is her son.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  54. as I remember it it was those pansies at Hot Air what first got their panties in a twist about conservative people asking to see a birth certificate – before it had just been Hillary people – but I don’t think they’re insane I think they’re just reacting to the transparently manufactured nature of our Soros-sycophant dirty socialist whore president’s improbable rise to the presidency

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  55. Newtons.Bit: He hasn’t; oddly, when the internet copy came out, it wasn’t even released by Obama’s personal attorney, or his campaign, but showed up on a left-wing web site. It was as if Obama thought it would sully him to answer the question directly, like it was beneath him.

    Hawaii has suggested more than once that there is a more definitive record of birth for Obama, that could be released if Obama gave permission.

    That itself may be inaccurate. But Obama could easily, through his attorney if he wants to keep his hands clean, a simple statement that Hawaii is free to release any original records involving his birth location and date to any recognized journalist.

    I’m convinced that doing so would just show he was born in Hawaii. In fact, for a long time I believed the “conspiracy” was that Obama purposely refused to do this so that, one day when things were really going bad for him, he could release it, make the birthers look like idiots, and get the upper hand.

    I don’t even think there’s a problem with his eligibility, I just find it annoying when a public figure who keeps pretending he’s being completely forthcoming absolutely refuses to release a common piece of information that many of us have to release to the government he runs — I think being President does mean you have to give away some minor aspects of your privacy.

    I know that Obama hates that, as he has stated publicly that he finds the Presidency and the scrutiny of it to be annoying.

    Charles (90b880)

  56. “I know that Obama hates that, as he has stated publicly that he finds the Presidency and the scrutiny of it to be annoying.”

    Charles – He also does not like tough questions. He has tried to have other organizations such as ACORN scrub their websites of evidence of his past relationship with them so that the lies he told that relationship on the campaign trail would ho;d up, but missed several items. He instructed acquaintances from his past not to talk to the media. Records from his time in the Illinois Legislatures mysteriously disappeared or are non-existent.

    There is just an ongoing pattern of non-disclosure and obfuscation to cover lies from Obama that the public has previously not been willing to accept from other politicians.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  57. ____________________________________________

    that “interview” wasn’t actually conducted with Abercrombie.

    Whether that’s correct or not, why hasn’t Hawaii’s governor, who appears to be a loyal Democrat and happy supporter of Obama, come out and clearly, strongly stated “I’ve seen documents that fully, totally verify that our president was born in Hawaii, and he has nothing to hide!”?

    Meanwhile, another aspect of the guy now in the White House that seems somehow quite fitting for a person who is the leader of what perhaps is destined to be the world’s largest Banana Republic–assuming the US is facing a lingering period of socio-economic retrenchment and acquiring the political characteristics of a Greece/Mexico/Spain/France/Venezuela:

    WND.com, April 16, 2011

    The controversy over Obama’s Social Security number traces back to a WND story May 11, 2010, reporting that two private investigators working independently were questioning why Obama was using a number set aside for applicants in Connecticut while there is no record he ever had a mailing address in the state.

    The records indicate the number was issued between 1977 and 1979, when Obama was between 16 and 18 years old and living in Hawaii. The Social Security website confirms that the first three digits in Obama’s Social Security number are reserved for applicants with Connecticut addresses, 040-049.

    Since 1973, Social Security numbers have been issued by one central office, and the first three digits of a person’s Social Security number have been determined by the Zip code of the mailing address on the application.

    …Had Barack Obama Sr. attended Yale, he might have lived in New Haven, Conn., some 90 miles south of Boston, but there is no record Obama Sr. ever attended any classes at Yale. In September 1962, Obama Sr. entered Harvard to pursue a Ph.D. in economics. Before completing the requirements to obtain the degree, however, he returned to Kenya.

    …The story Obama told in his autobiography, “Dreams from My Father,” was that he saw his father only once after he left Hawaii to study at Harvard, during a return visit to Hawaii in 1971.

    Mark (411533)

  58. Mark: Do you believe every rumor on the internet? The source of the rumor that started the “Abercrombie said no documents exist!”, Mike Evans, has said he was mistaken. And did not mean to say that it Abercrombie that said that. You would have known that had you actually bothered to open the link I offered. Further, the Director of the Hawaiin Health Dapartment has stated TWICE that she has seen the original document.

    Charles: Hawaii has NOT “suggested more than once that there is a more definitive record of birth for Obama, that could be released if Obama gave permission.” That’s a flat out lie. Hawaii has stated that they have the original document on file. The document on file is not more definitive than what Obama has released. Look at Obama’s birth certificate. Look at the bottom of it. Its legal evidence by Hawaiian law. It is all the evidence that is required, by law. Hawaii has stated that they can only release the certified copy (what Obama has already released) to people with a tangible interest. The original microfilm cannot be released. It can only be inspected by people with a tangible interest. And Obama cannot grant that interest. Read. The. Law. I’ve already quoted it twice in this post so far.

    Wwhat you’re doing right now is not hurting Obama. It’s not embarrassing him. It’s helping him. The more time conservatives argue with each other over this ridiculously stupid issue the more time Obama gets a free pass on his troubled policies.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  59. Good update by the AP.

    Angeleno (2ffd38)

  60. People like Newtons and crissy tingle and stephanopolous and the others talk waaaaaaaaaay more about birthers than anyone I know. I haver nver heard anyone bring up a birth certificate in conversation, and the only time I see it discussed is when a leftist starts talking about why conservatives are so obsessed with it.

    I actually agree with Charles above. I have no doubt he was born there, but goes to great effort to avoid showing it. Birthers originated with Hillary folks, no matter how much this is claimed to be a conservative issue.

    JD (b98cae)

  61. The original microfilm cannot be released. It can only be inspected by people with a tangible interest.

    Where in the world did you get that idea? I read what you quoted above. A certified copy can be released to someone with a direct and tangible interest. (Just read the part right after the part you bolded.) That is Obama.

    And where did you get the notion that the certificate is on microfiche? Link and quote?

    Contrary to your pronouncements, it seems clear to me that there is a certificate, Obama could authorize its release, and he has not. I continue to wonder why.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  62. Look at Obama’s birth certificate.

    I’d like to. But because Obama has refused to release it, I can look only at the Certificate of Live Birth.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  63. Newtons.bit, your misrepresentations are only making the anti-Birther case worse. Especially as you overreach on the subject of Hawaiian law. Certainly you seem to want to ignore that Abercrombie has only thrown fuel on the conspiracy with his inept fumbling of the issue.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  64. JD, the recent surge in birther sentiment seems to have been generated largely by a putative candidate for the Republican nomination (Trump). Recent polls show 45 percent of Republicans believe the President was not born in the U.S. I’m not sure how to square these facts with the notion that preoccupation with the birther question is largely a leftist phenomenon.

    Angeleno (2ffd38)

  65. Newtons.Bit – Your links contradict what you say. Comment fail!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  66. Jerome Corsi the guy who started the whole bitherism carp voted for Hillarity Clinton.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  67. “I’m not sure how to square these facts with the notion that preoccupation with the birther question is largely a leftist phenomenon.”

    Angeleno – I do not believe that was the assertion. The assertion was that the birther phenomenon began with Hillary’s campaign and that leftist media personalities such as Chris Matthews can’t stop talking about it as a way to discredit the right. Matthews is all about skin color liberalism. He can’t help himself and he sees this as another issue of racism.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  68. Patterico, the law specifically states that only a copy can be given out. And that is what Obama has released. Hawaii could change the rules as to what is actually on that copy, however that would apply to everyone. I don’t see how the law could be read any other way.

    SPQR: Abercrombie can hardly be held accountable for a celebrity journalist misrepresenting the facts.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  69. Prove it, daleyrocks.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  70. Patterico, the law specifically states that only a copy can be given out. And that is what Obama has released.

    No. A certificate of live birth has been released. It is not a copy of the original birth certificate. You understand that basic point, right?

    I know the state officials take the position that only the Certificate of Live Birth can be released. But the law you quoted says otherwise. Obama could get a certified copy of the actual birth certificate. He has not, your statement to the contrary notwithstanding.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  71. _____________________________________

    The source of the rumor that started the “Abercrombie said no documents exist!”

    I’ve never heard Hawaii’s governor make that claim. Instead, I’m under the impression that his original enthusiasm in getting to the bottom of the matter — if only to strongly counteract the skeptics of Obama’s background — has been sort of squished since he entered office.

    BTW, since a person apparently is an American citizen as long as his mother is one, regardless of where she was when she gave birth, I’m not interested in the “birther” issue for how it possibly disqualifies Obama from the White House. I’m mainly interested in how such an odd controversy combines with his peculiar resistance in having so many of his other records in general be fully released. I don’t think such curiosity on my part is frivolous or irrelevant when, as one example, there appears to be something odd about the origins of Obama’s social security number.

    Mark (411533)

  72. Why do these same people tell pro-lifers to mind their own buisness? When they have no problem butting in to others lives?

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  73. daley, JD says that “the only time I see it [the birther view] discussed is when a leftist starts talking about why conservatives are so obsessed by it.” To his credit, this must mean that JD doesn’t talk to Marilyn Davenport.

    Angeleno (2ffd38)

  74. And that is what Obama has released

    Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt. Wrong. He gave a copy of the COLB to Kos. Not a copy of the birth certificate.

    Angeleno – Marilyn Davenport is who?!

    JD (318f81)

  75. Anyone who thinks Obama isn’t resorting to unprecedented efforts to conceal the circumstances surrounding his birth is either a fool, an accomplice, or an enabler, witting or unwitting.

    Something’s not right, and it stinks to high heaven.

    ropelight (289a21)

  76. The state law rules forbid releasing the microfilm copy of the original document. At least until Obama is 75 years of age or older.

    Still looking for the provision that says this.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  77. “To his credit, this must mean that JD doesn’t talk to Marilyn Davenport.”

    Angeleno – Nobody knew who Marilyn Davenport was until people became outraged by her email.

    Serious question. Was it racist to put Bush’s head on a monkey’s body the way the left did when he was in office? If not, why is it suddenly racist to do it when Obama is in office? Serious question.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  78. I followed Angeleno’s link and saw something about an Obama chimp email. Would it be too much trouble to provide a link that backs up what you say?

    Patterico (c218bd)

  79. __________________________________________

    I’ll modify my assumption that Hawaii’s governor had lost his enthusiasm for clarifying the controversy perhaps because he couldn’t find the documents he was interested in. At the very least, I’ll say his enthusiasm was put on hold because the ball is in Obama’s court.

    nydailynews.com, January 22, 2011:

    Hawaii Gov. Neil Abercrombie is giving up on efforts to squash claims that President Barack Obama wasn’t born in his state — but it’s not for lack of trying.

    State Attorney General David Louie told the governor that it’s against state law to release private documents, including an individual’s birth documentation without the person’s consent

    Abercrombie, a fellow Democrat and a friend of the President, launched an effort in December to squash conspiracy theories that President Obama was born elsewhere.

    Mark (411533)

  80. Is an Obama chimp email a Birther thing? I admit I have not followed that little boomlet.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  81. “Prove it, daleyrocks.”

    Newtons.Bit – Read the comments. Others have done it for me.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  82. “Is an Obama chimp email a Birther thing? I admit I have not followed that little boomlet.”

    Patterico – It’s the latest outrageous outrage perpetuated by the ENTIRE tea party. Bush as chimperor, that’s different.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  83. Obama could get a certified copy of the actual birth certificate.

    Maybe he can, and maybe he can’t, Patterico. From my own experience, it’s possible that Hawaii no loger issues copies of the original. My son was born in Denver, Colorado, and when we needed to replace his birth certificate (which had gotten lost God only knows how or where), the state sent a different form, not very different from the Hawaii “short form” birth certificate Obama released. My son called the government office in Colorado which handles birth records, and asked whether he could get a copy of the original. They told him that they no longer issue those, that the form they sent was the only form they issue now.

    I don’t know whether that’s true of Hawaii, and I’m too indifferent about this to check. But it’s possible that Hawaii does the same thing as Colorado.

    Again, none of this should matter. Obama has released information certified by the State of Hawaii that shows he was born in Honolulu. That’s all he needs to prove his eligibility for office. If he’s hiding some other fact of his birth, I really don’t care: it’s not relevant.

    Some chump (4c6c0c)

  84. §338-18 Disclosure of records. (a) To protect the integrity of vital statistics records, to ensure their proper use, and to ensure the efficient and proper administration of the vital statistics system, it shall be unlawful for any person to permit inspection of, or to disclose information contained in vital statistics records, or to copy or issue a copy of all or part of any such record, except as authorized by this part or by rules adopted by the department of health.
    (b) The department shall not permit inspection of public health statistics records, or issue a certified copy of any such record or part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant has a direct and tangible interest in the record. The following persons shall be considered to have a direct and tangible interest in a public health statistics record:
    (1) The registrant;

    (2) The spouse of the registrant;

    (3) A parent of the registrant;

    (4) A descendant of the registrant;

    (5) A person having a common ancestor with the registrant;

    (6) A legal guardian of the registrant;

    (7) A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;

    (8) A personal representative of the registrant’s estate;

    (9) A person whose right to inspect or obtain a certified copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction;

    (10) Adoptive parents who have filed a petition for adoption and who need to determine the death of one or more of the prospective adopted child’s natural or legal parents;

    (11) A person who needs to determine the marital status of a former spouse in order to determine the payment of alimony;

    (12) A person who needs to determine the death of a nonrelated co-owner of property purchased under a joint tenancy agreement; and

    (13) A person who needs a death certificate for the determination of payments under a credit insurance policy.

    (c) The department may permit the use [of] the data contained in public health statistical records for research purposes only, but no identifying use thereof shall be made.
    (d) Index data consisting of name and sex of the registrant, type of vital event, and such other data as the director may authorize shall be made available to the public.
    (e) The department may permit persons working on genealogy projects access to microfilm or other copies of vital records of events that occurred more than seventy-five years prior to the current year.
    (f) Subject to this section, the department may direct its local agents to make a return upon filing of birth, death, and fetal death certificates with them, of certain data shown to federal, state, territorial, county, or municipal agencies. Payment by these agencies for these services may be made as the department shall direct.
    (g) The department shall not issue a verification in lieu of a certified copy of any such record, or any part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant requesting a verification is:
    (1) A person who has a direct and tangible interest in the record but requests a verification in lieu of a certified copy;

    (2) A governmental agency or organization who for a legitimate government purpose maintains and needs to update official lists of persons in the ordinary course of the agency’s or organization’s activities;

    (3) A governmental, private, social, or educational agency or organization who seeks confirmation of a certified copy of any such record submitted in support of or information provided about a vital event relating to any such record and contained in an official application made in the ordinary course of the agency’s or organization’s activities by an individual seeking employment with, entrance to, or the services or products of the agency or organization;

    (4) A private or government attorney who seeks to confirm information about a vital event relating to any such record which was acquired during the course of or for purposes of legal proceedings; or

    (5) An individual employed, endorsed, or sponsored by a governmental, private, social, or educational agency or organization who seeks to confirm information about a vital event relating to any such record in preparation of reports or publications by the agency or organization for research or educational purposes. [L 1949, c 327, §22; RL 1955, §57-21; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, §19; am L 1967, c 30, §2; HRS §338-18; am L 1977, c 118, §1; am L 1991, c 190, §1; am L 1997, c 305, §5; am L 2001, c 246, §2]

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  85. Mark: that gets someone a chance to view the the document or the certified birth certificate which I suppose falls under “(7) A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;”

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  86. Patterico, more detail from an earlier story in the Register.

    Angeleno (2ffd38)

  87. Never mind, Angeleno. I hadn’t read the link, assuming this was some columnist and her latest piece was about a chimp email and some earlier one was about the birther thing. Now I see they are one and the same. My next question is: so what? I never heard of this person before.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  88. Patterico: the certificate of live birth is the certified copy.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  89. #91. I was responding to JD’s suggestion that the birther issue is mainly a fixation of the left. I linked to the CBS poll and the Marilyn Davenport story to suggest that birtherism is very much a live topic in among some Republicans, at least.

    Angeleno (2ffd38)

  90. I seem to be getting profligate with prepositions…

    Angeleno (2ffd38)

  91. I too can play the bolding game, Newtons.Bit.

    (b) The department shall not permit inspection of public health statistics records, or issue a certified copy of any such record or part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant has a direct and tangible interest in the record. The following persons shall be considered to have a direct and tangible interest in a public health statistics record:
    (1) The registrant

    There may be no provision for releasing an original record. But Obama, as someone with and tangible interest in the record, can get a certified copy.

    Hawaii officials claim that the COLB is the copy people are entitled to. But that is not what the quoted statutory language says — and we know the COLB is not a true copy of the actual birth certificate. It is a different document, computer printed, with some of the same information.

    Your assertions about Obama having to wait 75 years and about the original document being on microfiche are utterly unevidenced, and appear to have been pulled from your nether regions. Feel free to disprove me. But not by reposting the statutory language with the irrelevant parts bolded and the relevant parts unbolded. That is not helpful.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  92. Patterico: the certificate of live birth is the certified copy.

    Since it is not a “copy” but an altogether different document you are playing word games.

    If you lay the COLB and the original side by side do you contend they would look the same?

    Patterico (c218bd)

  93. Not only am I tossing around too many prepositions, but I seem to be having trouble with numbers, as well. It was our gracious host I meant to respond to.

    Angeleno (2ffd38)

  94. From a Michael Isikoff story:

    “Before she would do so, Fukino said, she wanted to inspect the files — and did so, taking with her the state official in charge of vital records. She found the original birth record, properly numbered, half typed and half handwritten, and signed by the doctor who delivered Obama, located in the files.”

    Look at the COLB. Does it fit that description?

    No. So stop calling the COLB a copy.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  95. Patterico: With <40% of Republicans saying that they don't believe that Obama was born in the United States, surely one of them has published his own "certified copy" and how it is different then the COLB. I invite you to find one. Or any documentation by the State of Hawaii saying that they are, in fact, different documents.

    I'll help you out: this is where one can apply for certified copies of vital statistics. If you know someone who is Hawaiian and goes through the process and gets a document that isn’t a COLB I’ll pay each of you $100. Sound fair? The only thing I ask in return is that if you discover it is the same, then you update this post on Patterico.com with that information.

    Oh, and the reason why I’m so confident, is that I’ve seen other COLBs. More importantly, I’ve seen what’s on the back side:

    I certify this is a true copy or abstract of the record on file in the Hawaii State Department of Health

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  96. Bleagh, “With >40% of Republicans”. I really wish these comments had an edit feature.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  97. Patterico: With <40% of Republicans saying that they don't believe that Obama was born in the United States, surely one of them has published his own "certified copy" and how it is different then the COLB.

    Wow. You really don’t even know that the COLB is different from the long-form.

    I grant you that they may only typically release a copy of the COLB and not a copy of the long-form. But they are two different things, and I see nothing in the law that says you can’t actually give a copy of the long-form.

    The document the official says she examined twice is NOT the COLB. Do you honestly not understand that?

    Maybe I do need to write a post if confusion is this deep.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  98. Yes, Patterico, I do understand. But they do not release that long-form document. The “Certified Copy” that they release is the COLB. That’s their rules. It may be silly, but its their rules.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  99. Okay, it is their “rules” but the LAW says a “certified copy” can be released to Obama (the guy with the direct and tangible interest) and what they release is not a copy of the long-form.

    So why doesn’t he ask for a copy of the long-form?

    Patterico (c218bd)

  100. I’m sure everyone who possesses a passport knows this, but I was told to bring my original birth certificate or a certified copy of my original birth certificate with a raised notary stamp, not a copy of it.

    I believe he was born in Hawaii, but is hiding something. In fact, hiding lots. His whole life is a secret.

    PatAZ (81cf34)

  101. Angeleno – I am frankly more concerned about crap like the continued support of folks like the California Federation of Teachers and American Federation of Teachers for people like convicted cop killer Mumia Abu-Jamal and the message that sends to young folks we allow them to indoctrinate rather than a questionable email sent by an unknown local Tea Party official.

    Here is an excerpt from the CFT’s March resolution in support of Mumia:

    Whereas, the continued unjust incarceration of Mumia Abu-Jamal represents a threat to the civil
    rights of all people; and

    Whereas, the CFT has at a previous Convention voiced its support for justice for Mumia Abu-Jamal;

    Therefore, be it resolved, that the California Federation of Teachers reaffirm its support and demand that the courts consider the evidence of innocence of Mumia Abu-Jamal; and

    Be it further resolved, that the CFT introduce and advocate on behalf of a resolution at the 2012

    AFT Convention reaffirming the AFT’s support for justice for Mumia Abu-Jamal should he not have
    been cleared of charges and released by that time.

    California Federation of Teachers • Convention 2011

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  102. The POTUS must be a natural born citizen, which is defined as being born within the jurisdiction of the US of parents (plural) who are themselves US citizens.

    John Bingham, aka “father of the 14th Amendment”, specified the meaning of Natural Born Citizen on the floor of the House of Representatives.

    “Every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” (Cong. Globe, 39th, 1st Sess., 1291 (1866))

    Associate SC Justice Hugo Black in Duncan v Louisiana, 391 US 145 (1968) in his concurring opinion relied on Representative Bingham and Senator Howard as his source for the definition of “natural born citizen.”

    Obama does not fit that description since, at the time of his birth, his father was a British subject.

    Obama’s own campaign web site stated that his birth status was governed by the United Kingdom:

    “As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.’s children.”

    ropelight (289a21)

  103. Why are you a birther, Patterico? Surely Marilyn Davenport speaks for you.

    JD (318f81)

  104. he was a child crawling on his knees toward it making mama so proud

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  105. 103.I’m sure everyone who possesses a passport knows this, but I was told to bring my original birth certificate or a certified copy of my original birth certificate with a raised notary stamp, not a copy of it

    The COLB that Obama released did bear a raised seal by the State of Hawaii. It’s hard to see that on the scans, but there are photographs of the document that show the raised seal.

    Some chump (4c6c0c)

  106. “So why doesn’t he ask for a copy of the long-form?”

    Newtons.bit seems unwilling to comprehend what his own citations say is allowable. Shocka!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  107. I don’t think it’s Obama, Patterico: It’s Hawaii. They have their system and their rules. They release certified copies of the data contained on the forms. That’s good enough for them. And it should be good enough for everyone else as well.

    As I said in the post above, I’ll pay you and one other person $100 if you can get a Certified Copy that’s not a COLB.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  108. “The COLB that Obama released did bear a raised seal by the State of Hawaii. It’s hard to see that on the scans, but there are photographs of the document that show the raised seal.”

    Some chump – Not in dispute.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  109. As I said in the post above, I’ll pay you and one other person $100 if you can get a Certified Copy that’s not a COLB.

    Please don’t repeat an argument I already answered, as if I had not answered it. That is disrespectful and wastes my time.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  110. “As I said in the post above, I’ll pay you and one other person $100 if you can get a Certified Copy that’s not a COLB.”

    Newtons.Bit – Do your citations say that the state will certify the information for a person with a direct and tangible interest in the records?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  111. Daley,

    Some chump was answering PatAZ.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  112. As I said in the post above, I’ll pay you and one other person $100 if you can get a Certified Copy that’s not a COLB.

    Can you gt Barcky to go with me and authorize it’s release? Otherwise, this is yet another straw man.

    JD (318f81)

  113. Daddy? What’s a two-dollar beeeyul?

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  114. I don’t think it’s Obama, Patterico: It’s Hawaii. They have their system and their rules. They release certified copies of the data contained on the forms. That’s good enough for them. And it should be good enough for everyone else as well.

    If the records custodians typically give something less than what the law allows and it typically suffices for administrative issues then great. But they can’t trump (thank you!) the law with their rules, and the law, as cited by you, says Obama can get a certified copy of the long-form.

    People don’t usually ask for it when a certified copy of the COLB will do. But here people are asking.

    And it’s not because there is any good reason to believe he wasn’t born in Hawaii. I know how to look at the totality of a body of evidence and I’m satisfied he was.

    I just think he might be hiding something else, that is on the long-form and not on the COLB. And since the LAW (not administrative rules) allows him to get a copy, he should ask and they should give him one.

    Simple.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  115. Centered in the lower border, Obama’s COLB states that any alterations render it invalid, yet the document number in the upper right corner is redacted. Consequently, Obama’s COLB is likely invalid on it’s face.

    ropelight (289a21)

  116. Patterico, you didn’t even bother to read what I wrote or the images I’ve provided, have you? I’ve read the backside of the COLB. It is signed by the State Registrar of Hawaii and he states that it is a “true copy or abstract of the record on file”.

    You might not like the way they’re doing digital copies, but that IS the certified copy. You might not call that a copy. But Hawaii does. The State Registrar has stated so. And I’m so sure of it that I’ve offered cash to prove me wrong. I don’t know what you think about that is disrespectful. I’m addressing your argument and I’m proving that you’re wrong. I’m not going to blindly agree with you, or anyone else, who claims Obama can easily get the original document when I know that is not the case.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  117. he is a certifiably crappy president and you can see the raised the seal if you do your head like this

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  118. Obama has a passport, yet a COLB is unacceptable to the State Department, they require a birth certificate.

    ropelight (289a21)

  119. If the records custodians typically give something less than what the law allows and it typically suffices for administrative issues then great. But they can’t trump (thank you!) the law with their rules, and the law, as cited by you, says Obama can get a certified copy of the long-form.

    So you’re saying that Obama should spend his own private money to sue the State of Hawaii and demand that they release a duplicate of his long-form so that the people who are digging into his privacy can have a look at something they don’t have a right to see?

    Yea, that’s a great idea.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  120. ropelight,

    The “original” certified copy of the COLB is not redacted. Factcheck.org, which is admittedly a hack organization that has been deceptive about this, has an explanation as to why the scan of that document was originally redacted. They have photos of the “original” certified copy of the COLB with no redaction.

    Where they (and more recently Snuffleupagus) deceive is in pretending that the COLB is the real “birth certificate” while whispering (Factcheck.org) or omitting (Snuffleupagus) the fact that there is a Record of Live Birth (the “long form”) which is different and which nobody, save a couple of Hawaii officials, has seen — whether an original OR a copy.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  121. And I’m so sure of it that I’ve offered cash to prove me wrong.

    This is aggressively mendoucheous. I will accept your challenge, provided you force Barcky to show up with me and authorize it’s release.

    As for the rest, you continue to conflate that which has been released, to that which has not, presumably because it makes it easier for you to maintain your argument. That a COLB claims to be an accurate copy of something is meaningless, as it is absolutely not an accurate copy of the actual birth certificate. Period.

    JD (318f81)

  122. So you’re saying

    Again, adding to a mountain of evidence that this clause generally precedes a complete distortion or misrepresentation of what it professes to paraphrase.

    JD (318f81)

  123. JD, nowhere have I said or implied that Patterico is a birther or that Marilyn Davenport speaks for him or for all Republicans. The reaction of others in the OC Republican leadership suggests otherwise. My point is a different one: the fact that she sent out the post card she did suggest that birtherism is of interest to at least some Republicans. The poll I linked to quantifies that at 45 percent of Republicans. Evidence that a large percentage of Republicans hold birther views undermines the notion you advanced, that it is really a leftist preoccupation.

    daley, I think Mumia is a murderer, a liar and a fraud. Those CFT resolutions disturb me, too. I don’t see any relevance to the current topic, however.

    Angeleno (2ffd38)

  124. He’s spent 2 million to that law firm, Perkins & Coie,that also handles the recounts, and is DNC Counsel, to keep it out of the public record,

    narciso (79ddc3)

  125. I will stop discussing things rationally with Newtons.Bit, and instead adopt his tactics:

    1. Making grandstanding and meaningless offers of cash to prove points that have already been responded to; and

    2. Offering a complete distortion of his statements as being what he seeks to communicate.

    I offer Newtons.Bit $1000 if he can prove to me that the COLB and the original long-form birth certificate, when placed side-by-side, would look identical.

    Note that my offer is 10 times better and more convincing than Newtons.Bit’s, since I am offering 10 times the amount of cash.

    So you’re saying that Obama should spend his own private money to sue the State of Hawaii and demand that they release a duplicate of his long-form so that the people who are digging into his privacy can have a look at something they don’t have a right to see?

    Yea, that’s a great idea.

    So you’re saying that Obama is physically unable to simply make it known through a public statement that he authorizes any journalist to obtain a certified COPY of the long-form certificate?

    So you’re saying Obama can’t simply issue a written request saying that he actually wants a COPY of the long form?

    So you’re saying that a copy doesn’t have to look like the original?

    So you’re saying that Hawaii records officials get to ignore the law you are selectively quoting?

    Any time you want to drop the bullshit posturing and get back to an actual discussion, Newtons.Bit, lemme know. Until then, I’m fighting fire with fire.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  126. Then the OC leadership can answer for their nozzlery. When was the last time you saw someone on television just randomly bring up birther issues, angeleno? Daley accurately summarized my point above, it is a topic that crissy tingle and Stephanopolous and their ilk want to keep out front.

    JD (318f81)

  127. So you’re saying that Obama ISN’T spending money to defend against Birther suits, rather than simply asking that a copy of the long-form be released?

    Patterico (c218bd)

  128. This is aggressively mendoucheous. I will accept your challenge, provided you force Barcky to show up with me and authorize it’s release.

    I didn’t say Obama’s birth certificate. It was for anyone. I offered Patterico $100, and another $100 for whichever Hawaiian he can get to help him, if they could request a certified copy of birth and get something besides a COLB. And the reason why I’m offering the money is because I’m sure that the COLB is the “certified copy”.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  129. $1000 is more than $100. I win!

    Patterico (c218bd)

  130. Patterico has persuaded me that folks in Hawaii are imprecise in their use of words like “copy” and “abstract.” However, it also seems clear that Obama asked for and got what everyone born in Hawaii gets when they ask for a birth certificate. What is the rational basis for requiring more?

    Angeleno (2ffd38)

  131. And the reason why I’m offering the money is because I’m sure that the COLB is the “certified copy”

    Which is utterly f@cking meaningless. It is not a certified copy of the birth certificate being discussed.

    JD (318f81)

  132. _______________________________________________

    Obama should spend his own private money to sue the State of Hawaii

    Why? You don’t think the (repeat: THE) president of the US won’t get white-glove, red-carpet, gold-plated treatment from Hawaii’s state government? Even more so since I bet many in that bureaucracy probably are big fans of his and will do anything his heart desires.

    As for that peculiar matter regarding the origins of the US president’s social security number, it does make me think of the sort of discrepancy that might revolve around — and is quite ironic in light of the pro-birther people suspecting Obama isn’t a citizen — the records of an “undocumented” alien.

    Mark (411533)

  133. Since Newtons.Bit likes to use the word “copy” in some special sense, let me explain that when I use the word “copy” in this thread, I mean the sort of thing you might get if you took a document and ran it through a Xerox machine.

    You know, a “copy.”

    And Hawaii law says an interested party can get a certified “copy” — and the thing Hawaii is releasing is not a “copy” of the original certificate.

    Again, Newtons.Bit wants to elevate the officials’ pet rules over the law.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  134. Patterico: do you have links to these cases where Obama’s lawyers are trying to prevent the original document being released?

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  135. Well, you’ve got me, JD. I didn’t actually watch any of The Donald’s interviews.

    Angeleno (2ffd38)

  136. However, it also seems clear that Obama asked for and got what everyone born in Hawaii gets when they ask for a birth certificate. What is the rational basis for requiring more?

    He is the President, and the law allows him to request a certified copy of the actual long-form certificate, and he is pointedly not doing so — and sending out flacks to confuse the issue, and pretend that the COLB is the actual official underlying document.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  137. If Donald is a Republican, I am a Komodo dragon.

    JD (318f81)

  138. Since Newtons.Bit likes to use the word “copy” in some special sense, let me explain that when I use the word “copy” in this thread, I mean the sort of thing you might get if you took a document and ran it through a Xerox machine.

    You know, a “copy.”

    And Hawaii law says an interested party can get a certified “copy” — and the thing Hawaii is releasing is not a “copy” of the original certificate.

    Again, Newtons.Bit wants to elevate the officials’ pet rules over the law.

    Patterico: I’m not the one who is using the word that way. Hawaii is.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  139. Patterico: do you have links to these cases where Obama’s lawyers are trying to prevent the original document being released?

    Newtons.Bit: Do you have a link to the comment where I made that claim?

    Patterico (c218bd)

  140. He is the President, and the law allows him to request a certified copy of the actual long-form certificate, and he is pointedly not doing so — and sending out flacks to confuse the issue, and pretend that the COLB is the actual official underlying document.

    Do you think I’m a flack?

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  141. Wrong. A copy would show the handwriting, as has been points out to Newton, repeatedly.

    JD (318f81)

  142. Newtons.Bit loves him some strawmen. Makes supporting your position so much easier when you pointedly refuse to engage your opponent’s actual argument.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  143. Do you think I’m a flack?

    Nope. Just a sophist, willfully distorting and actively conflating.

    JD (318f81)

  144. Do you think I’m a flack?

    Did I say you were?

    Do you think he has no flacks who are not you?

    Do you enjoy arguing this way?

    Patterico (c218bd)

  145. Do you enjoy arguing this way?

    Exact same mendoucheity as he does with AGW.

    JD (318f81)

  146. _________________________________________

    birtherism is of interest to at least some Republicans.

    I have to admit my interest or curiosity perked up today not because I think Obama isn’t a citizen — particularly since his mother was a citizen and so any of her offspring automatically became a citizen — but because of my just becoming aware that something apparently is amiss with his social security number. There are odd, flaky aspects in general surrounding the guy now in the Oval Office.

    Mark (411533)

  147. I offer Newtons.Bit $1000 if he can prove to me that the COLB and the original long-form birth certificate, when placed side-by-side, would look identical.

    The state says that the COLB is the “certified copy” that they issue. I think you understand that. No one is saying that they look “identical” but we are saying that the COLB is what the state releases. They don’t release the “long form” but they generate a digital copy – the COLB.

    I don’t think Newton’s.Bit is arguing in bad faith at all. It’s a fair question – why have NONE of the birthers ever gotten Hawaii to release the so-called “long form?” Because they can’t, that’s why.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  148. ***(To clarify, I (and Newtons) mean that they can’t get a “long form” birth certificate for ANY Hawaiian, not specifically Obama.)

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  149. Newtons.Bit loves him some strawmen. Makes supporting your position so much easier when you pointedly refuse to engage your opponent’s actual argument.

    And what strawman would that be? Do you even know what that word means?

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  150. I thinking insulting the host is a fine way to approach this, Newtons.

    Carlitos – it may be a digital copy of something, but it is absolutely not a digital copy of the long form, which is what Patterico is referencing.

    JD (318f81)

  151. ______________________________________________

    Because they can’t, that’s why.

    Of course they can’t. After all, they’re not the registrant. They’re an outsider observer, a third party.

    Therefore, why hasn’t THE president — the most powerful, influential politician in this country — gotten Hawaii’s state government to release everything and anything pertinent to the controversy, if only so he can finally quell the rumors once and for all?

    Mark (411533)

  152. -So why doesn’t he ask for a copy of the long-form?

    Probably because he’s given all he needs.

    -He’s spent 2 million to that law firm, Perkins & Coie,that also handles the recounts, and is DNC Counsel, to keep it out of the public record,

    That’s just WND junk. Is this a casual birther blog?

    jasonc (e546cc)

  153. JD, that’s a fine bit of hypocrisy you got there.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  154. Patterico, was there ever an explanation of why anyone would redact the document number on Obama’s COLB?

    Unless the document is fraudulent, I can think of no rational for concealing the document number. Moreover, if the COLB is on the up-and-up a legitimate number would help to establish authenticity.

    ropelight (289a21)

  155. Mark – he doesn’t, because they like this, they use it to make their opponents out to e crazies. And some peole, who are usually reasonable, help them along by conflating actual birthers with those that properly note the difference between the actual birth certificate, and the COLB.

    JD (318f81)

  156. The state says that the COLB is the “certified copy” that they issue. I think you understand that. No one is saying that they look “identical” but we are saying that the COLB is what the state releases. They don’t release the “long form” but they generate a digital copy – the COLB.

    I don’t think Newton’s.Bit is arguing in bad faith at all. It’s a fair question – why have NONE of the birthers ever gotten Hawaii to release the so-called “long form?” Because they can’t, that’s why.

    Here’s the problem, carlitos. When Newtons.Bit first made his $100 challenge, I immediately conceded the point he was making with that challenge:

    I grant you that they may only typically release a copy of the COLB and not a copy of the long-form.

    Then I went on to make a different point:

    But they [the COLB and the long-form] are two different things, and I see nothing in the law that says you can’t actually give a copy of the long-form.

    In other words, the LAW (not the officials’ policies) allows a release of a “certified copy” — which the COLB most certainly is not, under the common-sense definition of “copy” I am using in this thread — what you get when you put a document in a Xerox.

    So I conceded that I had nothing to contradict the point of Newston.Bit’s point with the $100 challenge.

    And yet he continued to repeat it as if I had never addressed it.

    Which I find endlessly aggravating. I have very limited time and it annoys me no end to have discussions with people who breezily ignore what I say.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  157. According to this morning’s AP story, officials in the Hawaiian DOJ are construing state law to mean that they would deny Obama a copy (facsimile?) of the long form if he asked for it:

    What the would-be sleuths won’t find is Obama’s “long-form birth certificate,” a confidential one-page document containing his original birth records kept on file in the first floor of the Department of Health.

    Those original birth records typically include additional birth details, such as the hospital and delivering doctor, said Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the state’s former health director who twice looked at and publicly confirmed Obama’s original long-form birth records.

    But those documents are state government property that can’t be released to anyone, even the president himself, said Joshua Wisch, special assistant to the state attorney general. Obama would be able to inspect his birth records if he visited the Health Department in person, but original records of live birth are never released, he said.

    Angeleno (2ffd38)

  158. Newtons – can you point out where I insulted the host? What am I being hypocritical about?

    jasonsc comes along and conflates the issues as I described above. Thanks.

    JD (318f81)

  159. -if only so he can finally quell the rumors once and for all?

    (1) it won’t ‘quell the rumors.’ The WNDs of the world will continue, just like they continue in the face of other facts. (2) why even try to ‘quell the rumor’? There’s no incentive for that.

    jasonc (e546cc)

  160. And what strawman would that be? Do you even know what that word means?

    Here’s one:

    Patterico: do you have links to these cases where Obama’s lawyers are trying to prevent the original document being released?

    That is a strawman, my fine feathered strawman-loving friend, because I did not make that argument. Asking me for a link to an argument I did not make is an implication that I made an argument that I did not make.

    Which is a strawman.

    This is why I would rather discuss the issue with carlitos and not you. He actually listens to me, responds to what I say, and doesn’t raise a lot of crap that has nothing to do with my argument.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  161. I swear, jasonc is not a sock puppet created to prove exactly what I posited above.

    JD (318f81)

  162. (1) it won’t ‘quell the rumors.’ The WNDs of the world will continue, just like they continue in the face of other facts. (2) why even try to ‘quell the rumor’? There’s no incentive for that.

    Many people will indeed question ANYTHING they are presented.

    But many of us, viewing the actual copy of the actual long-form certificate, will have our suspicions allayed regarding why Obama has never asked for a certified copy of the long form, as the law appears to allow him to do.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  163. Newtons.Bit, you’ve actually made some good points in the thread. What I ask you to do is give me some credit for not being stupid, and to actually read and respond to what I say.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  164. I grant you that they may only typically release a copy of the COLB and not a copy of the long-form.

    I think that the bolded word is incorrect here. I would use the word “legally.” I realize that you disagree with the way Hawaii interprets their laws, but I think you are incorrect.

    the COLB most certainly is not, under the common-sense definition of “copy” I am using in this thread — what you get when you put a document in a Xerox.

    I don’t see where the state of Hawaii has to use the common-sense definition. They call the COLB a ‘certified copy’ and the Dept of Health asserts it on the back of the paper. State seal on the front. It’s legally a birth certificate.

    Look, now that basically all records are digitized, pretty much every state in the union is releasing digital copies. The fields are filled in by the states’ database. Are we going to play this game with every future president, or is it just Obama?

    The supreme irony is that McCain was the candidate actually born somewhere else, not that it matters.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  165. But what suspicions could there be? He’s a natural born citizen and has all sorts of evidence, including a certified government document to prove it. No incentive.

    jasonc (d03d04)

  166. According to this morning’s AP story, officials in the Hawaiian DOJ are construing state law to mean that they would deny Obama a copy (facsimile?) of the long form if he asked for it:

    Actully, while you’re right, the language you quoted does not back up what you say.

    Releasing the original and releasing a certified copy of the original are two different things.

    However, I believe I have read, perhaps in that same article or perhaps in Isikoff’s, that they have claimed there is no provision under the law to release a copy of the long form.

    Which seems to directly contradict the statutory language quoted in this thread, several times, by Newtons.Bit.

    So maybe they’re saying that, but a) releasing the original is not the same as releasing a certified copy, and b) the law seems to say they could release a certified copy.

    No reason Obama couldn’t ASK them to. And it seems a reasonable step given that he has indeed spent money to defend these suits.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  167. I think that the bolded word is incorrect here. I would use the word “legally.” I realize that you disagree with the way Hawaii interprets their laws, but I think you are incorrect.

    OK. Make the argument that my interpretation of the laws is incorrect.

    I suspect you don’t have one. You will simply defer to the officials and say it’s their job to interpret the laws.

    But hey, prove me wrong. You’re the one who said my interpretation is incorrect. You didn’t say you have no opinion. You said I’m wrong.

    Let’s see if you’re prepared to back up that statement.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  168. But what suspicions could there be? He’s a natural born citizen and has all sorts of evidence, including a certified government document to prove it. No incentive.

    Two issues there.

    1. What suspicions could there be? For me, nothing having to do with where he was born. Perhaps he has lied about something else on the form. I have no idea what.

    2. No incentive to ask for a certified copy of the long form? Has he not spent money defending against Birther lawsuits? Wouldn’t a certified copy of the long form be good evidence in those suits?

    Patterico (c218bd)

  169. He could show he has done everything he can to address the issue — an issue that he has spent money to defend against. (How much money? I don’t know and the vaunted fact checkers of the media seem to have no interest in finding out.)

    Patterico (c218bd)

  170. ___________________________________________

    -if only so he can finally quell the rumors once and for all?

    So you think a person occupying the most visible political office in this country who has been notorious for keeping various records related to him hidden in the shadows is quite interested in stopping the rumor mill? Uh, perhaps. But given the phrase “where there is smoke, there must be fire,” it seems more like a case of his acting to fan the flames.

    And do you have a good argument — good facts — to rebut the issue of his peculiar social security number? If you do, I’m more than willing to put that matter to rest.

    Mark (411533)

  171. Here’s one:

    Patterico: do you have links to these cases where Obama’s lawyers are trying to prevent the original document being released?

    That is a strawman, my fine feathered strawman-loving friend, because I did not make that argument. Asking me for a link to an argument I did not make is an implication that I made an argument that I did not make.

    Which is a strawman.

    My statement was in reply to this:

    So you’re saying that Obama ISN’T spending money to defend against Birther suits, rather than simply asking that a copy of the long-form be released?

    Comment by Patterico — 4/23/2011 @ 12:35 pm

    My request for a link to some of these cases isn’t a strawman. Do you believe that, in your own words, that “Obama is spending money to defend against Birther suits” or were you just asking me if I thought he was actively spending money on something you don’t think exists? If the latter, than you asked a very misleading question and if it’s the former then my statement isn’t a strawman.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  172. Ryan’sdivorce records got much less security.

    JD (318f81)

  173. Newtons.bit, what is the point to the intentional obfuscation you are engaged upon?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  174. Patterico wants his “suspicions” allayed. I wish I had a clearer understanding of the rational basis for those suspicions. When whispers from the Clinton campaign brought the topic up, Obama asked for and received the same product Hawaii provides everyone seeking documents certifying time and place of birth. This was bolstered by the fact that state agencies in 1961, following established routines, provided information on the birth to Honolulu newspapers, who published it. In light of these facts, where does suspicion come from?

    Angeleno (2ffd38)

  175. Are you trying to waste my time.

    You asked for proof that he was spending money on suits TO PREVENT THE CERTIFICATE FROM BEING RELEASED WHICH I DID NOT SAY.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  176. Newtons.Bit is either too stupid or dishonest for me to waste my time with. I can’t spend time talking to someone who can’t read simple English and understand basic logic.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  177. You are all racist birthers.

    JD (318f81)

  178. Angeleno,

    For the answers to your questions, may I direct you to the above comment thread, where I have already addressed these points.

    If you would like to take issue with a specific point I have made, please feel free to do so. But it is a waste of my time to ask me to repeat the points I already made.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  179. Petterico, don’t bother with an explanation of why the COLB’s document number is redacted. Factcheck reports the Obama campaign covered up the number in a rush to publish the COLB not knowing if the number could reveal private information.

    Factcheck has images of the COLB including the document number, a raised seal, and the stamped signature on the back of Alvin T Onaka, dated 6 June 2007.

    ropelight (289a21)

  180. Patrick, sorry. I got distracted and had an interruption while writing the post and hadn’t seen the additions to the thread when I hit submit.

    Angeleno (2ffd38)

  181. Patterico, you are very rapidly losing all of my respect that you garnered over the past 4 years. If you can’t identify what a strawman actually is, then there’s a serious problem. You specifically stated he was spending money on “BIRTHER” suits. I asked for links to those suits. That is not a strawman.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  182. Within the past year I read an article on the net which said that in many states when a person is adopted, and the last name is legally changed, the original birth certificate is officially amended to reflect the new last name. This article posited that Lolo adopted little Barry both to match Lolo’s, his mother’s and sister’s name Soetoro, and also as a way to ease Barry’s assimilation into Indonesian schools, travel, and society. The author suggested that Barry’s name was never legally changed back to Barack Obama even as he had been writing books and taking oaths of office using the name Barack Obama for decades. This sort of got at the idea that there’s something embarrassing or problematic about the birth certificate that has nada to do with the actual birth in Hawaii. (Which, like Patterico I tend to suspect may be the case.)

    I am not familiar with adoption records/birth certificate protocol. Maybe someone here is. I am also out the door for a birthday party and then later will be tied up preparing for Easter dinner tomorrow so I can’t search for the article now. I imagine anybody who’s interested can track this article down using Google. Or maybe somebody else recalls seeing it and remembers the author’s name.

    elissa (74eeea)

  183. Preface – I am not a lawyer, and Patterico is. I have read quite a bit about this issue, and I think that the states have the right to issue whatever they want to establish birth in their state. I apologize if I was a bit aggressive in saying that Patterico is wrong, but that’s my opinion. I’m not going to interpret the law for you, because I’m not qualified so I rely on expert advice. Rather than re-bold the same sections of the law that Newtons.Bit posted, I would like to ask you:

    How can Obama get this alleged “long form?” How can he do it? Newtons.Bit linked the form that you fill out – there is no “please give me the alleged long form” option. So, how does he do it? Does he take them to court, wasting his own time, effort and credibility to appease the 40% of Republicans that think he was born somewhere else? Why would he do that? It’s like comedy gold in here when the issue comes up. If I were Obama, I’d never resolve this issue; it’s like a litmus test for “crazy Republican” for him.

    I’m serious – how would he get this document?

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  184. And stop implying that I think the issue is his citizenship, Angeleno.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  185. ___________________________________________

    But those documents are state government property that can’t be released to anyone, even the president himself, said Joshua Wisch, special assistant to the state attorney general

    “Can’t be released,” as in regards to the original document itself cannot be given out? Well, uh, no foolin’, Sherlock. Of course the actual paperwork obviously won’t be — cannot be — handed out. So how about a copy of that document? And what state law says a copy of the original, actual, 100% real document itself can’t be made? If so, why?

    Mark (411533)

  186. -Perhaps he has lied about something else on the form. I have no idea what.

    So is this something you suspect?

    -Wouldn’t a certified copy of the long form be good evidence in those suits?

    I’m not familiar with the birther suits but have not heard of any needing any evidence. The document he’s released is evidence enough though.

    -He could show he has done everything he can to address the issue — an issue that he has spent money to defend against

    What’s “the issue” here? His place of birth? He’s proven it. “everything he can” is quite a nebulous standard. He hasn’t spent money sending researchers looking for the hospital staff that delivered him, for example. Would you think that evidences a lack of doing ‘everything he can’? You see how it never ends with the birthers?

    -So you think a person occupying the most visible political office in this country who has been notorious for keeping various records related to him hidden in the shadows is quite interested in stopping the rumor mill?

    I think it won’t stop and I don’t think he has any incentive to do any more to stop the birther rumors.

    -And do you have a good argument — good facts — to rebut the issue of his peculiar social security number?

    This kind of stuff is what I’m referring to when I say that the rumors wont stop.

    jasonc (dde5b7)

  187. If I’m misunderstanding your argument or statements, then say so. Getting upset and angry because I might have missed something is childish and passive aggressive. And given that I’m addressing just about every single person in this thread, while you were mostly addressing just me, it’s not going to be unusual for me to miss something you write.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  188. Patterico wants his “suspicions” allayed. I wish I had a clearer understanding of the rational basis for those suspicions.

    Comment by Angeleno — 4/23/2011 @ 1:20 pm

    Same here.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  189. I’m serious – how would he get this document?

    Say, “Hey Hawaii, I’m the President of the United States and I would like you to release a copy of this document about my birth because some citizens have a Constitutional question about my birth”

    MayBee (081489)

  190. the alleged long form

    The is no alleged long form. There is a long form, part of which is filled in by hand. It exists.

    Who defended those lawsuits, if not Obama, newtons?

    JD (318f81)

  191. Remember, GWB ended up getting all of his TANG documents released because the case was being made he was hiding something.

    MayBee (081489)

  192. JD: Which lawsuits? Can you link to them, or would that request be a strawman?

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  193. A home birth could explain the half-hand written part, and also explain why Obama is so certain it wouldn’t put place of birth rumors to rest. He doesn’t seem to know what hospital he was born in.

    MayBee (081489)

  194. Perhaps he has lied about something else on the form. I have no idea what.

    I have no idea, either. It’s sunny outside. Time for some air.

    Angeleno (2ffd38)

  195. Are you really unaware of the lawsuits, which began with the Hillary supporters? Really?

    JD (318f81)

  196. ___________________________________________

    This kind of stuff is what I’m referring to when I say that the rumors wont stop.

    So I invite you come up with a good rebuttal to the issue of his social security number apparently being issued for a resident of the state of Connecticut, not Hawaii. I’m agnostic about that matter, since I only became aware of it today, so I can very easily be persuaded to dismiss the validity of that claim.

    Mark (411533)

  197. -JD: Which lawsuits? Can you link to them, or would that request be a strawman?

    Is that army doc that got court martialed considered a birther suit? I think that was done within the military. I think the Obama 08 campaign has also done some work on this.

    jasonc (dde5b7)

  198. I’m serious – how would he get this document?

    Say, “Hey Hawaii, I’m the President of the United States and I would like you to release a copy of this document about my birth because some citizens have a Constitutional question about my birth”

    Comment by MayBee — 4/23/2011 @ 1:30 pm

    I wonder if Hawaii has laws that prohibit state officials treating otherwise equal members of the public differently…

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  199. Say, “Hey Hawaii, I’m the President of the United States and I would like you to release a copy of this document about my birth because some citizens have a Constitutional question about my birth”

    Comment by MayBee — 4/23/2011 @ 1:30 pm

    Therefore, why hasn’t THE president — the most powerful, influential politician in this country — gotten Hawaii’s state government to release everything and anything pertinent to the controversy, if only so he can finally quell the rumors once and for all?

    Comment by Mark — 4/23/2011 @ 12:57 pm

    I especially don’t like these arguments. if Hawaii has legal procedures and forms to fill out regarding health records, and those laws comply with the relevant privacy laws (HIPAA etc.), some how we want the Democrat in the White House to be above and exempt from those laws. That disturbs me.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  200. Newtons.Bit,

    Did I say Obama was spending money on lawsuits to prevent the long form from being released? That is a yes or no question.

    Patterico (f711c8)

  201. JD: I’m aware of lawsuits against the government asking them to release the form, but I’m not aware of any where Obama hired lawyers to defend against those lawsuits, no.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  202. Patterico: yes. You stated that Obama was spending money on birther lawsuits. What else could you possibly mean?

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  203. I especially don’t like these arguments. if Hawaii has legal procedures and forms to fill out regarding health records, and those laws comply with the relevant privacy laws (HIPAA etc.), some how we want the Democrat in the White House to be above and exempt from those laws. That disturbs me.

    It’s his own record. There is no law against releasing copies. And people can, of course, release their own medical records, even with HIPPA in place. I cannot imagine a circumstance where someone having his own records released is going to be misused by either a Democrat or a Republican.

    There are plenty of long form copies of birth certificates from Hawaii out there. It is not illegal to possess them.

    MayBee (081489)

  204. Berg
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/04/obama-birth-certificate-l_n_148432.html
    If you are not aware of the various lawsuits, you are either ignorant, or not discussing this in good faith. Period.

    JD (318f81)

  205. -So I invite you come up with a good rebuttal to the issue of his social security number apparently being issued for a resident of the state of Connecticut, not Hawaii.

    It appears as if you don’t understand what I mean by ‘won’t stop.’

    jasonc (c10981)

  206. When I wanted to apply for a passport, I had to provide an original “copy” of my Missouri birth certificate. What the state of Missouri sent was a copy, taken from the microfilm, that appeared in reverse (where it was white on the original, it was dark). It was then pressure stamped and signed by the clerk as an offical copy.

    The Hawaiian birth certificate of Susan Elizabeth Nordyke, born in the same hospital as Barack Obama, Jr., shows her born on August 5, 1961. It is clearly a microfilm copy. It is NOT like the one that Obama claims is his only BC. It shows the hospital and doctor in attendence on the certificate. Also, a blogger, called Snarkybytes, has provided a copy of his Hawaiian bc on his website.

    http://snarkybytes.com/2008/06/18/hawaii-birth-certificate-1963

    Now, perhaps Newtons.bit wants to argue that the long form is NOT available to Barack Obama due to Hawaiian law (although the statute clearly says differently) or that the type of COLB that Obama provided would allow Obama, were he a Native Hawaiian, to claim Hawaiian Home Lands benefits, but he is wrong. Or maybe Newtons.bit wants to argue that the State of Hawaii changed its birth certificate forms between 1961 and 1963, but he will not be able to come up with any proof of that.

    The fact of the matter is that Obama has provided what the state of Hawaii NOW issues as a certified short copy of the long form original birth certificate. It is computer generated to prevent the state from having to search microfilm and photograph the originial. Obama is quite capable of getting a copy of the microfilmed original, as Newtons.bit himself, proved.

    While I do think that Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. was born in Hawaii, I also think there is something that he is trying to hide by not providing the nation with a copy of the original birth certificate, and only the computer generated copy.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  207. Jasonc just wants to note that you are all racist birthers.

    JD (318f81)

  208. Let’s remember, this is the guy who got two opponents’ divorce records unsealed so he could run virtually unopposed for the Senate. Divorce records!

    He would be using this against an opponent.

    MayBee (081489)

  209. o I invite you come up with a good rebuttal to the issue of his social security number apparently being issued for a resident of the state of Connecticut, not Hawaii. I’m agnostic about that matter, since I only became aware of it today, so I can very easily be persuaded to dismiss the validity of that claim.

    Comment by Mark — 4/23/2011 @ 1:36 pm

    There is no such thing as a “Connecticut Social Security Number.” This rumor was started by the birther people when they were failing to succeed in court with the ‘long form’ argument. I believe Orly Taitz started this mess.

    http://www.ssa.gov/history/ssn/geocard.html

    One should not make too much of the “geographical code.” It is not meant to be any kind of useable geographical information. The numbering scheme was designed in 1936 (before computers) to make it easier for SSA to store the applications in our files in Baltimore since the files were organized by regions as well as alphabetically. It was really just a bookkeeping device for our own internal use and was never intended to be anything more than that.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  210. One should not make too much of the “geographical code.” It is not meant to be any kind of useable geographical information. The numbering scheme was designed in 1936 (before computers) to make it easier for SSA to store the applications in our files in Baltimore since the files were organized by regions as well as alphabetically. It was really just a bookkeeping device for our own internal use and was never intended to be anything more than that.

    JD (318f81)

  211. JD: you asked of Obama was defending against those lawsuits. I’m not aware of any where Obama himself, or a lawyer he hired, defended against the lawsuit. I’m only aware of those where the government defended against the lawsuits. So, again, do you have a link to a case where lawyers that Obama (or his campaign, etc) hired were actually defending the case?

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  212. Oops. Carlitos posted that already.

    JD (318f81)

  213. So why did the democraps insist Mccain was not born in america?

    Oh wait that’s different.

    Pitiful hypocritical scum.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  214. Now you are just being a douchebag.

    JD (318f81)

  215. That was not meant for you carlitos.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  216. Now you are just being a douchebag.

    Comment by JD — 4/23/2011 @ 1:47 pm

    ???

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  217. _________________________________________

    some how we want the Democrat in the White House to be above and exempt from those laws.

    You and I know that any person with the full weight of the White House behind him — regardless of his party registration — will naturally (and automatically) get kid-glove treatment. To believe otherwise is naive and disingenuous. That’s even more the case because the burden of proof upon the president doesn’t require he do something extraordinary, complicated and legally bold—eg, his current interpretation of the law that defines how a president can send the military into war.

    IOW, it’s not like the assumption is being made that he should be able to obtain the full set of birth documents of a total stranger, someone like, say, Donald Trump or Sarah Palin. Even more so since no one has yet explained (or totally clarified) why every document related to Obama’s birth in Hawaii’s system, upon the registrant’s request, cannot be pulled from the files and photocopied.

    Mark (411533)

  218. Perkins Coie defended more than one suit, paid by the Obama campaign. DOJ defended many others.

    JD (318f81)

  219. To suggest that he has not defended said lawsuits is simply disingenuous.

    JD (318f81)

  220. Great, Mark. Let’s say you’re right that Obama’s special because he’s president, and let’s say that Patterico is right that he has the right to a copy of the records.

    1 – HOW does he get them?
    2 – WHY does he release them?

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  221. To suggest that he has not defended said lawsuits is simply disingenuous.

    Comment by JD — 4/23/2011 @ 1:56 pm

    Then surely you can come up with some cases that Obama, and not the government, was actually involved in.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  222. If Obama requested a copy of the microfilmed original, are we to believe, per Newtons.bit, that the State of Hawaii would refuse to comply with his request?

    retire05 (2d538e)

  223. Why did John Mccain have to show his birth certificate?

    And why wasn’t the left accused of birtherism for forcing his hand on that?

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  224. retire05, why don’t you show us what form Obama can fill out to get “copies of microfiche?” How does he legally ask for that?

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  225. retire05, if I’m wrong, then there should be some people that have recently been able to acquire the duplicates of long-form. It only costs $10. Surely you can find some on the conspiracy websites if they exist!

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  226. Berg. All of the cases defended by Perkins Coie. Are you really disputing that Obama degree these suits? Or that the DOJ did so on his behalf?

    JD (318f81)

  227. JD: do you have any links to the cases defended by Perkins Coie? Anything that actually identifies the case by name will suffice.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  228. You are all deranged racist birthers.

    JD (318f81)

  229. ________________________________________

    There is no such thing as a “Connecticut Social Security Number.”

    Therefore, per the below from your link, and based on Obama’s SS number being issued sometime between 1977 to 1979, the only question is why was the mailing address of a 16- to 18-year-old teenager in Hawaii therefore associated with an East Coast location? However, if the number of a SS file (unlike that of a credit card) and the place of residence do not have to be in sync, then a lot of ambiguity is built into the system. That at least explains to me why fraudulent use of SS numbers is well known and rather easy by illegal immigrants from countries like Mexico.

    Since 1972, when SSA began assigning SSNs and issuing cards centrally from Baltimore, the area number assigned has been based on the ZIP code in the mailing address provided on the application for the original Social Security card. The applicant’s mailing address does not have to be the same as their place of residence. Thus, the Area Number does not necessarily represent the State of residence of the applicant, either prior to 1972 or since.

    Mark (411533)

  230. “Those CFT resolutions disturb me, too. I don’t see any relevance to the current topic, however.”

    Angeleno – What percentage of Democrats believe Obama was born in a different country?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  231. If anyone is interested, this is a complete scorecard of birther lawsuits. Most are just dismissed sua sponte, some were never docketed, and Obama isn’t named as a defendant in very many of them. The ones that go to court are all being defended by the government, not by Obama.

    http://tesibria.typepad.com/whats_your_evidence/BIRTHER%2520CASE%2520LIST.pdf

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  232. Mark, since you just heard about this SS thing today, you should just forget about it today. You’ll be better off. I’m not going to argue with you; it’s an insane claim made by an insane birther (Orly Taitz). Not worth discussing. Here’s a possible response:

    Most likely, this was due to a clerical error. At the time, President Obama was only 15 years old, and lived with his grandparents in an address on Beretania Street. The President’s house in Hawaii was in zip code 96814 and the zip code for Danbury, CT. is 06814. Since the ‘0’ and ‘9’ on a typical typewriter are immediately adjacent (remember, the president’s Social Security number was issued in 1977, before the age of computers), it would have been a common error to accidently type a ‘0’ when the ZIP code really began with a ‘9’. Another possibility is that President Obama, a left-handed 15 year old boy at the time, may have written his own ZIP code in a less-than-fully-legible manner, making the ‘9’ look somewhat like an ‘0’.

    In any event, there is no evidence whatever that President Obama’s Social Securiy number was obtained by fraud.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  233. How many times do I have to type Berg before newtons will quit ignoring it? Wo paid for the Keyes defense? Hollister? Not to mention why you are trying to differentiate between oBama and and the government on Obama’s behalf.

    JD (318f81)

  234. If anyone is interested, this is a complete scorecard of birther lawsuits. Most are just dismissed sua sponte, some were never docketed, and Obama isn’t named as a defendant in very many of them. The ones that go to court are all being defended by the government, not by Obama.

    http://tesibria.typepad.com/whats_your_evidence/BIRTHER%2520CASE%2520LIST.pdf

    Comment by carlitos — 4/23/2011 @ 2:13 pm

    Grand total of 3 out of 74. And it looks like they were all dismissed with costs or sanctions against the plaintiff. Heh.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  235. Patterico: yes. You stated that Obama was spending money on birther lawsuits. What else could you possibly mean?

    We’ll discuss what I meant in a second. For now I will reask my question about what I SAID. I would appreciate a more honest answer this time.

    Newtons.Bit,

    Did I say Obama was spending money on lawsuits to prevent the long form from being released? That is a yes or no question.

    Patterico (f711c8)

  236. ___________________________________________

    1 – HOW does he get them?

    Carlitos, you’re asking that of a person registered to the “meaning of is is” Democrat Party, a street-wise community organizer and ultra-liberal from Chicago who buys into the notion that the ends justify the means?

    2 – WHY does he release them?

    To be honest, he acts so suspiciously about such matters that one can easily believe he, in fact, is strategising to make people think he’s guilty of far worse things than he actually is, so that when all the facts come out, he won’t look quite so bad.

    Mark (411533)

  237. Newtons.bit, I provided you with a link to a blogger who put his own Hawaiian birth certificate on the web. You are free to check it out instead of trying to ignore it. Since this blogger was born in Hawaii, I am sure he is not trying to organize some “conspiracy” regarding Obama.

    Also, you go on to claim that Obama has not hired lawyers to prevent producing his long form birth certificate to the courts and demand the name of the cases. Well, here they are:

    http://www.conservapedia.com/Obama_birth_certificate_lawsuits

    Now, perhaps you would like to explain to all of us, if, as you say, no one could access Obama’s birth certificate but him (as he could with the long form if he so desired), how did DailyKos manage to get a copy of the computer generated COLB and post it on the website PRIOR to Obama posting it on his Organizing for Obama website? And yes, DailyKos was the first to put the COLB on the web. How did Marcos manage to get a copy? And don’t tell me Obama gave it to him, because if he did, Obama was in bed with one of the most far left, Marxist bloggers in America.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  238. 3 is bigger than zero, making your douchebaggery above, just that.

    JD (318f81)

  239. How many times do I have to type Berg before newtons will quit ignoring it? Wo paid for the Keyes defense? Hollister? Not to mention why you are trying to differentiate between oBama and and the government on Obama’s behalf.

    Comment by JD — 4/23/2011 @ 2:18 pm

    This is what I get when I type “berg” into google. Maybe next time you’ll want to actually say what the name of the case is instead of just the plaintiff?

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  240. How many times do I have to type Berg before newtons will quit ignoring it? Wo paid for the Keyes defense? Hollister? Not to mention why you are trying to differentiate between oBama and and the government on Obama’s behalf.

    Comment by JD — 4/23/2011 @ 2:18 pm

    I repeatedly stated that I was not aware of any where Obama defended. Given that there were only 3 out of the 74 where this was the case, that’s not surprising.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  241. ______________________________________

    Most likely, this was due to a clerical error.

    Okay, that sounds very plausible, and my curiosity and suspicions have been allayed. That’s all it took to settle the matter for me.

    Mark (411533)

  242. So you had never heard of theBerg lawsuit, making it an argument made from ignorance, rather than being mendoucheous. Good to know.

    JD (318f81)

  243. I don’t care what anybody says. I know for a fact that Trig Palin was not born in Hawaii, and Sarah Palin is not Obama’s mother.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  244. Newtons.Bit,

    Once again:

    Did I say Obama was spending money on lawsuits to prevent the long form from being released? That is a yes or no question.

    Patterico (f711c8)

  245. Comment by Mark — 4/23/2011 @ 2:20 pm

    I asked HOW and WHY, and you answered neither.

    LOL – retire05 is citing conservapedia. Great source there!

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  246. Oh:

    Newtons.Bit,

    Did I say Obama was spending money on lawsuits to prevent the long form from being released? That is a yes or no question.

    Patterico (f711c8)

  247. JD:

    It was never an argument, it was a request for information. And the reason why it was a request is because I actually didn’t know one way or the other.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  248. __________________________________________

    I asked HOW and WHY, and you answered neither.

    Are you therefore implying that the top political official in this country has no more access to — no more knowledge about — the inner workings of system than I do? If so, does that mean you think he’s incompetent (although I’d agree with you there) or absurdly naive?

    If it’s the latter, then, yes, I guess it’s realistic to believe his claims that, for example, he sat in Jeremiah Wright’s church for almost 20 years and didn’t realize just how fanatical the reverend’s rantings were.

    Mark (411533)

  249. He’s spent 2 million to that law firm, Perkins & Coie,that also handles the recounts, and is DNC Counsel, to keep it out of the public record,

    Comment by narciso — 4/23/2011 @ 12:32 pm

    My emphasis below. I think this was a source of confusion:

    So you’re saying that Obama ISN’T spending money to defend against Birther suits, rather than simply asking that a copy of the long-form be released?

    Comment by Patterico — 4/23/2011 @ 12:35 pm

    I haven’t seen anyone here tell me how Mr. Obama would go about “asking” for the records to be released, and, if need be, why he would go to court to force the issue.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  250. Patterico: see post #205.

    Patterico: yes. You stated that Obama was spending money on birther lawsuits. What else could you possibly mean?

    Comment by Newtons.Bit — 4/23/2011 @ 1:40 pm

    See that? That’s the mature way to handle a post which someone else missed.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  251. A mature way to note that you don’t know anything about the topic is to note you do not know anything about the topic. If you AR not awar of the Berg case, one of the most prominent and publicized of all of the birther cases, it is usually better to simply say so right up front.

    JD (318f81)

  252. Gotta go. grill is calling. Dead cow rocks.

    JD (318f81)

  253. Mark, “HOW” is an interrogative pronoun; it’s a pronoun that asks a question. It doesn’t “imply” anything; it asks a question. If you don’t have an answer to “how” then please don’t reply to my posts containing that word.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  254. Newtons.Bit,

    Did I say Obama should sue Hawaii? That’s strawman number 2.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  255. I haven’t seen anyone here tell me how Mr. Obama would go about “asking” for the records to be released

    How about a letter? That is a form of communication often used in government.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  256. JD: I’ll make it a point to point out which specific details I’m not aware of with regards to conspiracy theories next time. I don’t know about those details yet, but I’m sure I’ll figure out how to divine what they are.

    Joking aside, do you make any arguments that aren’t ad hom or appeals to perfection?

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  257. “I haven’t seen anyone here tell me how Mr. Obama would go about “asking” for the records to be released”

    carlitos – I’m not a Hawaiian rocords official and neither are you. Newtons.Bit posted Hawaiian statutes in this thread which, if you accept them as accurate, allow Obama or another party with a legitimate interest in the records, to obtain a copy. They statutes Newton posted don’t specify the procedures. Either dispute the accuracy of the statutes or find out yourself how to do it. I have not seen you dispute ther accuracy of the statutes, so I assume you agree they are true and only quibbling over some moronic undisclosed procedures for whatever reason you find necessary.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  258. ________________________________________

    “HOW” is an interrogative pronoun

    So you’re asking that I or others come up with a legal formula or strategy that will permit Obama and his lawyers to access his birth documents in Hawaii? Or are you’re suggesting that he and his lawyers have already done that and met a brick wall? Of course, that’s assuming the inability by an outsider (ie, a person not working for Hawaii’s state government) to obtain a copy of the long-form of a birth document is virtually impossible.

    Mark (411533)

  259. To even admit that you would be interested in seeing the actual bir certificate means you are a racist irrational birther who thinks Obambi was born in Kenya and is a socialist interloper Manchurian prezzydent sent to destroy the world.

    JD (318f81)

  260. I apologize if I was a bit aggressive in saying that Patterico is wrong, but that’s my opinion. I’m not going to interpret the law for you, because I’m not qualified so I rely on expert advice.

    That’s what I figured. I never thought, when you claimed I was wrong in my interpretation, that you were actually basing that on your own interpretation.

    Instead, you just choose to accept what the Hawaii people say, because that better conforms to the pre-existing opinion you had about the issue coming in.

    Which is fine — but it’s not debate. So please don’t pretend that you’re engaged in debate.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  261. I am devastated to read that Newtons.Bit feels Patterico’s credibility is eroding due to Newtons.Bit’s inability to read and comprehend plain English.

    Life ain’t fair sometimes. I hope Patterico can handle the blow.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  262. Newtons.Bit,

    See comment 239, in which I QUOTED the very comment you claimed I “missed.”

    Then, I responded to it.

    You still have not answered the question.

    Once again:

    Did I SAY Obama was spending money on lawsuits to prevent the long form from being released? That is a yes or no question.

    SAY.

    Did I SAY that?

    Not did you interpret my words that way. Not do you think I implied it.

    Did I SAY it.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  263. Sure, I make plenty that are not. Sadly, you ignore the ones where I was nice. I apologize for pointing out where you were unaware of basics like the most prominent lawsuit, when the discussion was about said lawsuits. appeal to perfection? I am far from, to be sure.

    JD (318f81)

  264. I am devastated to read that Newtons.Bit feels Patterico’s credibility is eroding due to Newtons.Bit’s inability to read and comprehend plain English.

    Life ain’t fair sometimes. I hope Patterico can handle the blow.

    Newtons.Bit says I missed a comment of his that I QUOTED. He really is not paying attention.

    At all.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  265. I never paid much attention to Newtons.Bit, but if this is characteristic of his debating style, it’s hard for me to believe I ever would have thought he had much credibility.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  266. I will now reproduce the content of my comment 239 that Newtons.Bit missed.

    Patterico: yes. You stated that Obama was spending money on birther lawsuits. What else could you possibly mean?

    We’ll discuss what I meant in a second. For now I will reask my question about what I SAID. I would appreciate a more honest answer this time.

    Newtons.Bit,

    Did I say Obama was spending money on lawsuits to prevent the long form from being released? That is a yes or no question.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  267. “To even admit that you would be interested in seeing the actual bir certificate means you are a racist irrational birther”

    JD – Prolly a Jesuslander, Bible thumping, snake talking, pro-life, gun-totin’, Muslim-hating, sister-poking, meat eating, misogynistic, knuckle dragging, red neck, mouth breathing, hillbilly, inbred, banjo playing, climate change denying, chucklehead.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  268. This is not hard. All Obama has to do, in order to be able to make the argument that he has done everything he can, is make the request.

    If he authorizes release of the long form, and tells Hawaii he wants a certified copy released as Hawaii law appears to call for, then any failure to release the document is squarely on Hawaii.

    He does done this to SOME extent by requesting and publishing the COLB, and that is to the good. He could have refused to do even that and all the anti-Birthers here would likely have defended him there too. Right?

    But there is still a step he could take. It seems like a logical step to take for someone who has been sued over this issue, and spent campaign funds — in an undetermined amount that Big Media remains determined to fail to uncover — to defend against Birther lawsuits . . . and yet is unwilling to spend the money on a postage stamp to a letter to Hawaii officials.

    I find that suspicious. Not, for the umpteenth damned time, because I doubt he was born in Hawaii. Rather, because it is strange behavior, which causes me to wonder why he engages in it.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  269. Instead, you just choose to accept what the Hawaii people say, because that better conforms to the pre-existing opinion you had about the issue coming in.

    I think that not “accepting what the Hawaii people say” would cause a constitutional crisus due to the Full Faith and Credit Clause. Am I wrong? Hawaii gets to certify births in Hawaii.

    You have suggested that Obama write a letter to ask for the state of Hawaii to release some of his private health records. Let’s say he did that, and Hawaii writes back and says “no, we can’t do that, you have to use the regular form like everyone else. All we ever do is issue COLB per our statute blah blah blah.” Now what? We’ve seen the form; Newtons.Bit linked it. There is no checkbox for “please gimme the long form (sic).”

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  270. Could Newtons.Bit, who declared I risked my credibility by accusing him of strawman arguments, give me a straight answer as to whether I have ACTUALLY MADE two arguments that he has implied I have made?

    Which, if I haven’t made those arguments but he has accused me of it, then — for those keeping score — that would be the definition of a strawman.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  271. You have suggested that Obama write a letter to ask for the state of Hawaii to release some of his private health records. Let’s say he did that, and Hawaii writes back and says “no, we can’t do that, you have to use the regular form like everyone else. All we ever do is issue COLB per our statute blah blah blah.” Now what?

    Now he can say he tried.

    I’ll hunt down the link, but I’m pretty sure the governor said the long form couldn’t be released because Obama had not authorized it. Probably a misstatement, but if he had explicitly authorized it then such misstatements would be easier to counter.

    People like ME would be less suspicious of OBAMA if he didn’t fail to release (or take steps to release) his records constantly — things like transcripts, etc.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  272. This is not hard. All Obama has to do, in order to be able to make the argument that he has done everything he can, is make the request.

    I apologize for being redundant, but why would he do this? He’s got 40% of the opposition party believing in a conspiracy theory. It’s good for him.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  273. That is a yes or no question.

    And the response was already “yes”. Did you miss it twice?

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  274. “Patterico, you are very rapidly losing all of my respect that you garnered over the past 4 years. If you can’t identify what a strawman actually is, then there’s a serious problem. You specifically stated he was spending money on “BIRTHER” suits. I asked for links to those suits. That is not a strawman.”

    This is me being devastated over the loss of Patterico’s credibility in the eyes of Newtons.Bit.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  275. Yes, that was a misstatement by the governor.

    Which recent presidential candidates willingly released their college transcripts? I saw a list somewhere but I can’t find it.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  276. Patterico. For me to make a strawman out of you, I have to actually create an argument to knock down. I did no such thing. I asked for links to the “birther” cases that you referred to. If you don’t like the way I interpret “birther” different than you, that’s fine. But it doesn’t a strawman make.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  277. carlitos, obviously the State of Hawaii DOES issue copies of the long form of a birth certificate or a Hawaiian born blogger would not have been able to post his on his website. So your argument that Hawaii could say “no, you have to use the the regular form like everyone else” is moot.

    Also, there is a process by which a person CAN request their “long” form birth certificate from Hawaii. Newtons.bit gave the example in his post #87. I don’t think Newtons.bit wanted to prove that Obama could obtain the long form from the microfilmed records, but he did.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  278. He’s got 40% of the opposition party believing in a conspiracy theory. It’s good for him.

    Why is that good for him?
    Was TANG good for Bush?

    MayBee (081489)

  279. He is “only asking questions,” Patterico. Sigh

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  280. .” Now what? We’ve seen the form; Newtons.Bit linked it. There is no checkbox for “please gimme the long form (sic).”

    carlitos – Are you going to dispute the statute pasted into the thread by Newtons.Bit? Are you saying that is incorrect?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  281. Since Newtons.Bit likes to use the word “copy” in some special sense, let me explain that when I use the word “copy” in this thread, I mean the sort of thing you might get if you took a document and ran it through a Xerox machine.

    You know, a “copy.”

    And Hawaii law says an interested party can get a certified “copy” — and the thing Hawaii is releasing is not a “copy” of the original certificate.

    Again, Newtons.Bit wants to elevate the officials’ pet rules over the law.

    In grade school the teachers always said not to copy other peoples exams and homework. I guess they really meant taking the document to the XEROX machine and duplicating it, not just replicating the information on the other students exam…

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  282. And the response was already “yes”. Did you miss it twice?

    No. I saw where you said “yes” and then changed the terms.

    x=Obama spent money to defend birther suits
    y=Obama tried to keep the long form secret

    You engaged in a strawman by arguing that I said x and y.

    I said, no, I never said x and y. That is a strawman you made up. And I challenged you to show me where I did.

    You said: come on, Patterico. You said x. You know you did.

    I said: true. But did I say x and y? No.

    I asked you specifically to respond to my question whether I SAID x and y.

    You replied: yes, you said x. What else could you mean but y when you said x?

    I quoted your response and replied, let’s talk about what I meant in a second. First of all, try telling the truth about whether I SAID x and y.

    Then you said I missed the response that I had quoted.

    Then I pointed out where I not only didn’t miss the response, I actually quoted it, and responded.

    Then I reasked the question you have avoided, multiple times. I even quoted your previous dishonest answer a second time to prove I did not miss it.

    Now you re-answer “yes” which is not true, and accuse me of having “missed” your answer that I have now quoted twice.

    Does this not clearly demonstrate what a chucklehead you are acting like?

    Patterico (c218bd)

  283. carlitos – Ignoring the statute which appears to provide interested parties access to their long form documents and arguing instead that since you do not see the mechanics spelled out appears to me a weapons grade crappy position.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  284. carlitos – Are you going to dispute the statute pasted into the thread by Newtons.Bit? Are you saying that is incorrect?

    No daley, I’m not disputing the statute. But Hawaii makes their own rules in how to comply with that statute. The way the State of Hawaii issues birth certificates is by having Hawaiians use the form they provide. There is one form. They issue exactly one kind of certified copy of birth certificates (just like many other states). It’s the one Obama has shown. As has been shown here, if he dug up the old original with the baby footprints, people like Jerome Corsi would just move the goalposts and find reasons that whatever else was a forgery. Or move onto his SS# or whatever. It wouldn’t end.

    retire05 is incorrect that any Hawaiian blogger has successfully released anything else; the birthers have posted a bunch of lies and forgeries and that confuses some people.

    He’s got 40% of the opposition party believing in a conspiracy theory. It’s good for him.

    Why is that good for him?

    He’s got Republicans like me wondering if we want to stay in a party that encourages and tolerates such insanity, for one thing. Joseph Farah was the keynote speaker at the TEA Party convention, for Christ’s sake. I feel icky when these “suspicions” are aired here.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  285. ________________________________________

    He’s got 40% of the opposition party believing in a conspiracy theory. It’s good for him.

    Why? Because he should play up the role of divider, not uniter? He should encourage his opponents to have even less faith and confidence in him?

    Even if he were a conservative, I’d say such a tactic was too cynical and cavalier, if not brazen—certainly if he truly had nothing to conceal. Moreover, I don’t think I’d give him as much benefit of the doubt, or the state he was wrangling with (assuming that’s even the case here) — be it a blue state like Hawaii or a red one like Texas or Tennessee — as you seem to want to do with Obama and Hawaii.

    Mark (411533)

  286. “To even admit that you would be interested in seeing the actual bir certificate means you are a racist irrational birther”

    To me, the troublesome thing is the bills that are currently being considered that require proof that a candidate actually meets the Constitution requirements are being denounced as “birther bills”. They shouldn’t even be controversial (except for AZ’s request for Baptism certificate or evidence of circumcision).
    There’s no good reason to be against those bills, or to make supporters sound irrational.

    MayBee (081489)

  287. Patterico. For me to make a strawman out of you, I have to actually create an argument to knock down

    You are lying.

    Since the history is right here in the thread, it is easy to find and quote.

    You did not ask for links to birther cases. Here is what you asked:

    “Patterico: do you have links to these cases where Obama’s lawyers are trying to prevent the original document being released?”

    That is you creating an argument for me — that I claimed his lawyers were trying to prevent the original document from being released — so you could knock it down.

    That is not what I said.

    I said he has spent money to defend birther suits. I have NOT in this thread said he spent that money to prevent the document from being released. I said it is odd to spend all that money on the lawsuit and not SEEK to have the document released.

    Those are two different concepts and if you can’t follow that I feel sorry for you. I feel certain I could explain this to my 11-year-old daughter and she would understand it easily. If I told her a presumably grown man couldn’t grasp the distinction she would probably be surprised that she could understand something a grown man couldn’t.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  288. Patterico: I have to actually try and disprove/attack/debunk/whatever strawman I allegedly created. I did no such thing.

    You stated that Obama had defended “birther lawsuits”. I wanted information on which cases those were. That’s all. I’m sorry you’re getting that upset by this, but my question was only a request for information. It wasn’t an attack on you, or any of your arguments.

    We can also argue about whether or not the definition of “birther” includes “people that want to see Obama’s original long-form certificate” but I don’t think that’s really pertinent at this point.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  289. He’s got Republicans like me wondering if we want to stay in a party that encourages and tolerates such insanity, for one thing.

    You will not find a party that does not tolerate insanity.
    Obama himself has tolerated much insanity in his own career (Rezko, Ayers, Wright). If you want to turn to him because there’s no way to shun Republicans you disagree with, I don’t know what to say.

    MayBee (081489)

  290. carlitos, what purpose would a blogger have for posting his own Hawaiian birth certificate if not simply for the purpose of showing what it looked like in 1963? There are other Hawaiian birth certificates posted on the internet, all of them long form types that show the name of the parents, the address of the parents, the occupation of the parents, signed by the attending physician. None of that information appears on obama’s COLB.

    Now, you may want to subscribe to the theory that all those people who have released copies of their own personal Hawaiian birth certificates are simply “birthers” trying to take down Obama, but that is a thought that can rattle around only in a brain that is in total denial.

    The process for obtaining the long form of a Hawaiian birth certificate is not listed in the statute, but it DOES say that it is available, can be viewed, and a copy of the microfilm can be obtained.

    Yet, you dismiss all sensible arguments. Why is that?

    retire05 (2d538e)

  291. You did not ask for links to birther cases. Here is what you asked:

    “Patterico: do you have links to these cases where Obama’s lawyers are trying to prevent the original document being released?”

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  292. No daley, I’m not disputing the statute. But Hawaii makes their own rules in how to comply with that statute.

    If Hawaii makes their own rules, they can make their own rule. We will release copies of the long form if requested. Easy peasy.

    MayBee (081489)

  293. He’s got Republicans like me wondering if we want to stay in a party that encourages and tolerates such insanity, for one thing. Joseph Farah was the keynote speaker at the TEA Party convention, for Christ’s sake. I feel icky when these “suspicions” are aired here.

    Let’s distinguish between two concepts, carlitos.

    1. Was Obama born in Hawaii?

    2. Is there something on the long form certificate that might be somehow embarrassing to him.

    The answer to #1 is very simple. There is overwhelming evidence he was born in Hawaii. I share your disdain for anyone who is blinding themselves to the obvious evidence, corroborated by so many different strands, that he was born in Hawaii. Anyone who disputes that is either unfamiliar with the evidence, or so prejudiced against Obama that they can’t objectively evaluate the facts.

    The answer to #2 is less simple. I think it is a decent argument, if true, that the Hawaii officials don’t release the long form as a matter of their practice. However, I also think that the law allows the release of a certified copy of the long form. (You disagree, only because you choose to blindly accept interpretations by others over the plain language of the statutes.) Given the law, it seems to me that a guy spending money to defend lawsuits over the issue, who doesn’t bother to issue a simple request on presidential letterhead asking for a certified copy of the long form, is very possibly hiding something.

    If he makes the request, then it’s all on Hawaii. No reason to suspect Obama.

    If he doesn’t make the request, it’s reasonable to wonder why not.

    If you feel “icky” over #2 (as opposed to #1) then I submit you’re more concerned with how we appear than you are with logic and evidence.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  294. a weapons grade crappy position.

    No, this is a a weapons grade crappy position:

    Asserting that Obama should write (someone? the governor?) in Hawaii a letter asking them to release his private records, for the reasons of:

    1 – shifting blame to the state of Hawaii
    2 – so he will “be able to make the argument that he has done everything he can”

    All the while, Obama knows that nothing will stop the birthers from asserting he isn’t a citizen and continuing to file their frivolous and unfounded lawsuits, but hey – he will have accomplished the above #1 and #2 in Patterico’s eyes. What a huge win for the President.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  295. Patterico, how did my exchange of the word “birther” for “lawyers are trying to prevent the original document being released” actually attack an argument?

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  296. I provided Newtons.bit with a link to a site that lists each and every law suit involving Obama’s birth certificate. He chose to ignore it.

    One can only assume the reason why.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  297. It’s the old Newtons.Bit trick of bolding irrelevant material! And, durrrrrrrrr, I’m so stupid I can’t see through it!

    Newtons.Bit:

    You did not ask for links to birther cases. Here is what you asked:

    “Patterico: do you have links to these cases where Obama’s lawyers are trying to prevent the original document being released?”

    A simple bolding of the relevant portion shows what a deceptive and aggravating twit Newtons.Git is being:

    “Patterico: do you have links to these cases where Obama’s lawyers are trying to prevent the original document being released?”

    Here is the part I didn’t say, but that you implied I said:

    where Obama’s lawyers are trying to prevent the original document being released

    where Obama’s lawyers are trying to prevent the original document being released

    where Obama’s lawyers are trying to prevent the original document being released

    Get it YET?

    Patterico (c218bd)

  298. I’am not a birther.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  299. I provided Newtons.bit with a link to a site that lists each and every law suit involving Obama’s birth certificate. He chose to ignore it.

    One can only assume the reason why.

    Only 3 possibilities.

    1. Stupid
    2. Dishonest
    3. Combo

    Patterico (c218bd)

  300. Obama knows that nothing will stop the birthers from asserting he isn’t a citizen and continuing

    How do you know that?
    Is everyone who is curious why he won’t ask for the long form a “birther”?
    How do we compare this to the Bush TANG situation.

    Bush had an honorable discharge from TANG. A rumor started he had been AWOL. It became a topic in mainstream media- investigating whether Bush had gone AWOL. It was a serious topic of discussion and intelligent people were allowed to “investigate” the rumors.
    A completely false story was done by a renown journalist.
    That was found to be false.
    Bush had all of his TANG records released.
    Although most Democrats I know still believe Bush went AWOL from TANG, all questions had been answered and it stopped being a topic for the nightly news broadcasts.

    I don’t see why the birth certificate is so different, except that I believe the American people should see the birth certificate of every candidate OR the Constitution should be amended.

    MayBee (081489)

  301. carlitos, saying “nothing will stop the ‘birthers'” is not an excuse for the POTUS asking for his own birth records to stop all the debate. A man with nothing to hide doesn’t allow the theory to continue that he has something to hide.

    I thought Obama promised the most transparent administration in American history. Obviously not, since he not only refuses to release his long form birth certificate, but has also personally directed Occidental College, Columbia University and Harvard University to seal all his records there.

    But I guess you think he was sleeping through all those Jeremiah Wright, Jr. sermons (except Obama says in his own book that he took the recordings of Wright’s sermons to Harvard with him).

    retire05 (2d538e)

  302. 2. Is there something on the long form certificate that might be somehow embarrassing to him.

    Since a grand total of one Presidential candidate has ever, in the history of this country, been asked to provide the original physical documentation attesting to his birth, and that one guy has a high melanin count, it does make me feel icky, yes. I don’t see where your suspicion lies, nor do I see how the circumstances of ANY 50-year old’s birth would be embarassing to them?

    How is that even possible? He’s a mixed-race result of a shotgun wedding; what’s going to be more embarrassing than that in 1961? You think maybe dad was a Klingon or a sheep or something?

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  303. Yes Patterico, I implied that you said that, because that’s what I actually thought you meant. And then I didn’t attack that. By not attacking it, it’s not a strawman. Do you understand what a strawman is? Because it’s pretty clear to me that you don’t.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  304. carlitos,

    Do you think it was a mistake for Obama to request his COLB?

    If he had refused to request his COLB, would you have supported him?

    I have heard this “the other side would just make their silly arguments anyway” argument before, and I never find the argument convincing. For example: “You shouldn’t worry about stating your position clearly because they will just twist it anyway.”

    While you focus on how the fringe will respond, you completely ignore how more sensible people might respond.

    If you make your argument clearly, it is tougher to distort.

    If you make every effort to be transparent, it is tougher to argue that you are trying to hide something.

    OK, I get it, you think there are crazy people who will never be satisfied. I agree. Can we move past repeating that argument ad nauseum and ask whether making the request would have any persuasive effect on the NON crazies?

    Patterico (c218bd)

  305. Only 3 possibilities.

    1. Stupid
    2. Dishonest
    3. Combo
    4. He cited “Conservapedia,” which is a work of fiction not an encyclopedia

    Comment by Patterico — 4/23/2011 @ 3:35 pm

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  306. The definition of a strawman:

    A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.[1] To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2]

    See, for what I did to be a “straw man” I actually have to refute that strawman argument. I didn’t refute it. I asked for information on it.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  307. carlitos, I suggest you backtrack on that last statement, and then spend some time learning history.

    Here, let me help you out.

    Chester A. Arthur
    Barry Goldwater

    And

    George W. Bush, whose birth certificate was obtained by an opponent.

    Are you saying that there were demands for their birth certificates due to a high melanin count?

    retire05 (2d538e)

  308. Yes Patterico, I implied that you said that, because that’s what I actually thought you meant. And then I didn’t attack that. By not attacking it, it’s not a strawman. Do you understand what a strawman is? Because it’s pretty clear to me that you don’t.

    It’s pretty clear to me that YOU don’t.

    Here’s what happens with a strawman argument. It’s a two step process. I’ll walk you through it slowly. Read out loud if you have to.

    1. The dishonest debater (that would be you) creates a false version of his opponent’s argument. That is called a strawman.

    2. The dishonest debater than easily knocks it down.

    Now, let’s say that the dishonest debater (you) gets as far as step 1, when the honest person (me) stops the debate and says: “Whoa! That’s a strawman! I’m stopping things right here!”

    Is it really NOT a strawman just because the honest debater (me) did not allow the chucklehead (you) to proceed to step 2?

    The answer, in case you didn’t get it yet, is “no.”

    Patterico (c218bd)

  309. Since a grand total of one Presidential candidate has ever, in the history of this country, been asked to provide the original physical documentation attesting to his birth

    The Senate had a hearing about McCain’s birthplace. It is well assumed that had Goldwater or George Romney won their elections, there would have been court cases to determine their eligibility.

    Obama was being asked about his birth certificate and handled it very oddly. He delayed releasing it, set up a website about Stopping the Lies on which he was set to unveil his birth certificate, then gave it to Kos instead.
    He will not ask his long form to be released.
    In the meantime, he was found to be lying about other things in his life. Additionally, he has been ruthless to past opponents in getting their personal information unsealed.

    So he handled it badly. He dragged it out needlessly. He himself is politically ruthless. That isn’t racist.

    MayBee (081489)

  310. I just read your definition and it completely supports what I just said.

    You created a strawman. I.e. you misrepresented my position.

    Then I stopped you before you attacked it.

    You really are waaaaaaay less smart than you think you are.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  311. Here is how the game works:

    carlitos, and Newtons.bit, dismiss any reference that doesn’t agree with their position.

    Now, carlitos, would you, or Newtons.bit, like to tell us how, if only Obama can obtain his COLB, and the state of Hawaii will not release it to anyone else, how DailyKos got a hold of it prior to the Obama campaign releasing the same thing?

    retire05 (2d538e)

  312. While you focus on how the fringe will respond, you completely ignore how more sensible people might respond.

    Patterico – you seem to be saying that birther Republicans are “the fringe.” I don’t believe that’s true; I think that the lies and propaganda have worked.

    A CBS News/ New York Times poll shows that 45 percent of Republican voters believe Obama was born overseas, The Hill reports. That compares with 33 percent who think he was born in the U.S. and 22 percent who don’t know.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  313. Patterico: how would I knock it down? It’s already been proven in this thread that I wasn’t actually aware of cases where Obama had defended because I wasn’t that familiar with the actual lawsuits of biritherism. JD got to have a little victory dance over that.

    You didn’t stop me from knocking down the strawman, there was nothing there that I intended to knock down! It was an actual request for information, nothing more.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  314. Very simply, Newtons.Twit, I object to your misrepresenting my position whether you go on to attack the misrepresentation or not.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  315. Do I get to dismiss CBS/New York Slimes as easily as carlitos dismisses any other source?

    retire05 (2d538e)

  316. carlitos,

    I find that poll very surprising and disturbing.

    Then again, I wonder whether Obama’s strange behavior has contributed to this bizarre misimpression on the part of low-information voters.

    I don’t think it would “work” anywhere near as well if he was more straightforward.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  317. carlitos,

    I will ask a third time, because I really want to know your answer:

    Do you think it was a mistake for Obama to request his COLB?

    If he had refused to request his COLB, would you have supported him?

    Patterico (c218bd)

  318. retire05- Kos said the Obama campaign gave it to them, and I believe it to be true. I don’t know why they did it that way, as they had just created a new website (StoptheSmears) and had shown the dummy to journalists- the dummy included the COLB. Karen Tumulty wrote a bit about it for TIME. At the last minute, the Obama campaign gave it to Kos and took the links off their official website.

    MayBee (081489)

  319. You didn’t stop me from knocking down the strawman, there was nothing there that I intended to knock down!

    So you finally admit it was a strawman.

    I love playing the Newtons.Git bolding game.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  320. Patterico, carlitos has to use the NYSlimes poll. After all, according to RealClearPolitics, the CBS/NYSlimes poll is the only one where Obama’s approval rating is still greater than his disapproval rating (but only by one point). Even Democracy Corp has Obama in the losing column.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  321. MayBee, the day after DailyKos posted the COLB, it appeared on Organizing For Obama, but was shortly removed with just the link to DailyKos.

    I do not believe Marcos when he claims the Obama campaign gave it to him. Why would the Obama campaign do that when it had a lively website of its own, and considering that Kos is such a far left group? That would only turn off the independents that were on the fence.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  322. Wow, changing my name to something else to try to insult me. What are you 12?

    By the way, what you just did, “So you finally admit it was a strawman.” that’s actually a strawman argument. Congratulations, you’ve finally discovered what it is!

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  323. carlitos said:

    If anyone is interested, this is a complete scorecard of birther lawsuits. Most are just dismissed sua sponte, some were never docketed, and Obama isn’t named as a defendant in very many of them. The ones that go to court are all being defended by the government, not by Obama.

    But if you follow his link, it says, rather inarticulately, that he or his campaign attorneys have appeared in few lawsuits.

    Few is not none.

    His campaign funds have most assuredly been spent defending some of these lawsuits, carlitos. So your assertion was just wrong.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  324. On June 22, 2004, The Associated Press sued the U.S. Department of Defense and the U.S. Air Force, seeking access to all of Bush’s records during his military service.

    Has the AP done anything similar in Hawaii?
    Is there a reason Bush’s TANG records were more important than Obama’s birth record(s)?

    Was the AP embarrassing itself and all Democrats in 2004?

    MayBee (081489)

  325. Newtons.Twit,

    You don’t get irony much, do you? I guess you “missed” the part where I explained the joke by saying I was bolding shit to make a dishonest argument. I was simply throwing your tactic back in your face so you would see what it’s like. And I even explained what I was doing.

    Seriously, you’re just not paying attention.

    If I were to be charitable, I would say you think you are a lot smarter than you are, and you think I am a lot dumber than I am. And so, you skip over arguments I make, miss my points entirely, and generally give the back of your hand to my comments, because you have an inflated sense of your intellect as compared to mine.

    As I suggested above, try giving me a little credit and actually paying attention to what I say. It is the polite and respectful thing to do, and also, you would look less like a buffoon to onlookers.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  326. retire05-
    Why would the Obama campaign do that when it had a lively website of its own, and considering that Kos is such a far left group? That would only turn off the independents that were on the fence.

    I do not understand why they have handled it the way they did, including letting so much time go by before they just have the long form released.
    I believe they gave it to Kos only because they removed the links they had set up (and shown Karen Tumulty) on their own website.

    MayBee (081489)

  327. “and also, you would look lees like a buffon to onlookers.”

    Nah, Patterico, I think Newtons.bit has reached the point of no return.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  328. Newtons.Bit,

    It’s like when you went around superciliously demanding that JD provide you links to Birther lawsuits. You simply hadn’t done the research — yet you still took this tone that implied that you knew far more than JD.

    I’m trying to help you here. A little more humility in your tone and a little more politeness would be a Good Thing for you.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  329. carlitos,

    I will ask a third time, because I really want to know your answer:

    Do you think it was a mistake for Obama to request his COLB?

    No, I think it was a reasonable thing to do to try and stop Berg’s attacks from making any headway. An extraordinary step – sure, but why not show as much transparency as possible? I can’t imagine that he’d have thought that three years later there would still be attacks on his birth, and that they’d be coming from the right.

    If he had refused to request his COLB, would you have supported him?

    I didn’t support him in either case, but if you mean “support his stance on this one issue,” then I can’t really answer that. It’s like the butterfly effect or chaos theory. If he hadn’t released it, I sometimes wonder if it would have gone away sooner, rather than lingered. I don’t think that the conspiracists like Farah and Corsi would have exploited it to the level they did if they didn’t see that document. I doubt that you would have given it any thought, since there is such a myriad of other evidence confirming his birth in Hawaii.

    I hope you don’t mind my dodging your second question, but I think that the variables are too unpredictable to know.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  330. What would we say if the AP sued the State of Hawaii to release a copy Obama’s long form birth certificate?

    MayBee (081489)

  331. I compared the information on Obama’s short-form COLB to the information on Snarkybytes’ 1963 Hawaiian long-form COLB at the link provided at #209 by retire05 — 4/23/2011 @ 1:44 pm.

    Snarkybytes’ COLB includes the following information which is absent on Obama’s COLB:

    Is the birth a single/twin/or triplet? If a multiple birth, the birth order must be indicated;

    Name and specific location of the Hospital;

    Usual residential address of Mother;

    Age of Father, Father’s birthplace, usual occupation, type of business or industry;

    Mother’s age, birthplace, occupation, date last worked;

    Name and signature of parent or other individual providing above information, date information provided;

    Name and signature of birth attendant, specify MD, DO, Midwife, Other;

    Date and signature of the local birth registrar;

    Date registration accepted by Registrar General.
    ———————–

    Unless Obama has an evil twin, he’s concealing the place of his birth or the name of his father. None of the other information is worth all the time and effort to keep hidden.

    ropelight (289a21)

  332. carlitos,

    Did you ever answer which made you feel “icky” — issue 1 or issue 2?

    Because it seems to me you’re bringing this level of outrage which is appropriate to issue 1 (Obama’s citizenship) and misapplying it to the very legitimate questions at issue with issue 2 (why is Obama not requesting a copy of the long form?).

    I totally sympathize with you on issue 1, but think you’re the one going kind of nuts on issue 2. Disagree? Great. No problem there. But calling it “icky” and responding to it with this huge level of disgust seems like a wild overreaction.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  333. There was a myriad of evidence that Bush had been honorably discharged from TANG.
    That didn’t stop the AP from suing for more documentation. For 4 years, Bush, TANG, and the DoD got ever more pressure from Democrats and media outlets to release all of his military records. They did.

    Was that racist?

    MayBee (081489)

  334. If he hadn’t released it, I sometimes wonder if it would have gone away sooner, rather than lingered. I don’t think that the conspiracists like Farah and Corsi would have exploited it to the level they did if they didn’t see that document. I doubt that you would have given it any thought, since there is such a myriad of other evidence confirming his birth in Hawaii.

    No, the COLB is what mainly convinces me. The other stuff is good too, but I would be VERY suspicious — far more so than I am now — if he had refused to fill out the standard request that anyone in Hawaii would fill out.

    And yes, I would be happy to require any candidate to provide the standardly issued birth certificate, like Obama did, before they qualify to go on a ballot. Christ, I have to provide a birth certificate for much less than that!

    I think you make a mistake focusing on how the crazies react and should look more at how sensible people react. Many sensible people are disturbed by his lack of transparency.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  335. Do I get to dismiss CBS/New York Slimes as easily as carlitos dismisses any other source?

    Comment by retire05 — 4/23/2011 @ 3:49 pm

    retire05, you really need better sources. I don’t have any great love for CBS or the NYT, but I have no reason to dismiss this polling data. On the other hand, you cited Conservapedia. Here’s what that site says about dinosaurs:

    Creation science proves the biblical account, that dinosaurs were created on day 6 of creation[3] approximately 6,000 years ago, along with other land animals, and therefore co-existed with humans, thus debunking the Theory of Evolution and the beliefs of evolutionary scientists about the age of the earth.

    Creation science shows that dinosaurs lived in harmony with other animals, (probably including in the Garden of Eden) eating only plants[4]; that pairs of each dinosaur kind were taken onto Noah’s Ark during the Great Flood and were preserved from drowning[5]; that many of the fossilized dinosaur bones originated during the mass killing of the Flood[6]; and that possibly some descendants of those dinosaurs taken aboard the Ark are still around today.[7]

    Archaeological, fossil, and documentary evidence supports the logical conclusion that dinosaurs co-existed with mankind until at least relatively recent times.

    You need better sources. If you want the truth about the birther stuff, try this one – http://www.thefogbow.com/. Good luck.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  336. They poll the generally most uninformed sample, then they weigh it in favor of the democrats,

    narciso (79ddc3)

  337. “No daley, I’m not disputing the statute.”

    carlitos – Heh. Okay, you’re ignoring it instead of disputing it. What’s the difference when you pretend there is not alternative to the COLB when the apparent plain language of the statute says otherwise?

    You’re just sticking your fingers in your ears and saying I can’t hear you along with Newtons.Bit.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  338. From the fogbow.com site:

    In 2008, a small group of people began to question then-candidate Obama’s background. Some hated that he had overcome Hillary Clinton for the Democratic Party nomination.

    That’s carlitos’s “reliable” source: Birtherism began AFTER Hillary was defeated.

    Meaning it certainly didn’t begin WITH Hillary’s supporters.

    “Reliable”?

    See, when you get emotionally invested in an issue, you start relying on weak sources and taking anything said by your side as gospel.

    And I’m seeing some of that on BOTH sides here.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  339. carlitos,

    Did you ever answer which made you feel “icky” — issue 1 or issue 2?

    While I have less “ick” with 2, I still have some. Here was my partial answer. I’m deleting the first part, because I’m unaware of the issues with Chester Arthur and Goldwater.

    In response to your question (my emphasis added) :

    2. Is there something on the long form certificate that might be somehow embarrassing to him.

    I said:

    I don’t see where your suspicion lies, nor do I see how the circumstances of ANY 50-year old’s birth would be embarassing to them?

    How is that even possible? He’s a mixed-race result of a shotgun wedding; what’s going to be more embarrassing than that in 1961? You think maybe dad was a Klingon or a sheep or something?

    Comment by carlitos — 4/23/2011 @ 3:39 pm

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  340. Why does the liberal MSM keep polling on the birther issue – because it keeps it in front of the public.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  341. Newtons.Twit,

    You don’t get irony much, do you? I guess you “missed” the part where I explained the joke by saying I was bolding shit to make a dishonest argument. I was simply throwing your tactic back in your face so you would see what it’s like. And I even explained what I was doing.

    No you didn’t, liar. You did not explain that you were bolding it to make a dishonest argument. You stated that you were bolding it like I bold items. Words have meaning, Patterico, as a lawyer I would expect you to know this. When I bold something I’m not being dishonest about it. I did it to highlight what was being asked. That’s you once again creating another strawman.

    Seriously, you’re just not paying attention.

    If I were to be charitable, I would say you think you are a lot smarter than you are, and you think I am a lot dumber than I am. And so, you skip over arguments I make, miss my points entirely, and generally give the back of your hand to my comments, because you have an inflated sense of your intellect as compared to mine.

    That’s charity? That’s the nicest backhanded insult I’ve ever received. But I’m amused by the fact you that jumped to this conclusion from me having a different, and correct, interpretation of the word “birther” than you. More importantly, I’m more amused by the fact that if someone misunderstands your intent, which given by your definition of “copy” and “birther” I’m surprised doesn’t happen more often, they’re automatically trying to create strawmen.

    I’m not making arguments as to whether or not you’re intelligent, Patterico. I’m making arguments on the birther issue. Smart people just like you fall victim to conspiracy theories all the time. My favorite: Steven Jones, is actually a nuclear physicist with a PhD. He’s smart. He’s also a conspiracy theorist.

    As I suggested above, try giving me a little credit and actually paying attention to what I say. It is the polite and respectful thing to do, and also, you would look less like a buffoon to onlookers.

    Comment by Patterico — 4/23/2011 @ 4:03 pm

    Your words have absolutely no weight as you’ve already proven yourself incapable of either giving respect, or requiring people on your side to do it. Your “charitable” comment proves that for you by itself. Further, you’ve twisted my name several times to try and score a cheap insult and you allow JD and others on this website to do it on every single thread. The only justification necessary is that the person being attacked doesn’t toe the party (or in this case the conspiracy) line.

    You cannot simultaneously demand respect from people you disagree with while fostering a community that gives none to the people it disagrees with. That’s blatant and disgusting hypocrisy.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  342. And I’m out, Happy Easter everyone.

    Newtons.Bit (b78b37)

  343. From a Politico piece in February of 2008, which they just happened not to notice in the last
    ‘drive by':

    Main Content Not quite the talking point – Ben Smith: Not quite the talking point February 26, 2008 Categories: · Hillary Clinton Not quite the talking point Stephanie Tubbs Jones, a Clinton surrogate, says on MSNBC, “I have no shame, or no problem, with people looking at Barack Obama in his native clothing — in the clothing of his country.”

    This, er, overstates the Clinton campaign line that there was no smear involved because there’s nothing wrong with the photo. Though if you want to be generous, you could say she meant his ancestral, rather than native, country. (If you’re really splitting hairs, it was apparently more Somali than Kenyan clothing.)

    But in any case, it’s another incident where — judging from early blog and email reaction — the dynamic of offense and outrage has, so far, very much favored Obama. I’m not sure that will work with a less liberal general election audience, but even the GOP leadership seems to think it’s likely to.

    narciso (79ddc3)

  344. Just so we’re clear, carlitos’s fogbow.com bullcrap notwithstanding, Birtherism started with Hillary supporters.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  345. And I’m out, Happy Easter everyone.

    Sure. Drop 2-3 strawman arguments, confront people with a haughty tone despite knowing nothing about the issue, ignore and misrepresent and then . . . leave.

    Pretty much what I expected.

    Troll.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  346. carlitos, you still ignore that another Hawaiian birth certificate (more than one, actually) can be found on the internet, and none of them have as little information on them as does Obama’s COLB.

    You also ignore that it was DailyKos, a far left wing, Marxist website that first produced the COLB. You ignore that Obama has the ability to request his original bc, although the statute does not state what the process is. I am sure that is a simple thing; just a request to the Hawaiian Department of Vital Statistics for a copy. Hell, man, he IS POTUS, after all. And if he can’t get his own records, then he is the most inept POTUS in history.

    I have said that I believe Obama was born in Hawaii, but he also has something to hide, or he would simply put an end to the debate. There is no advantage to his lack of transparency, especially when his numbers are falling like a brick. By producing the long form, he would discredit the nay-sayers forever.

    Here is another interesting tidbit: Stanley Ann Sotoro’s application for renewal of her passport has been posted on the web. Under “children” she listed “Barry Sotorobama” and then scratched it out. Why would she not list her children on her application to renew her passport?

    What exactly do you know about Obama other than what has been constructed by David Axelrod? Do you know who his friends were at Occidental, or Columbia, or Harvard, other than he roomed in New York with a Palestianian drug dealer? You know nothing. You don’t know where he lived, who he hung out with (other than in Chicago where he hung out with Tony Rezko and Rashid Khalidi, one crook, one Jew hater). There is less known about Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. than there is about George Washington. Where is Obama’s senior thesis? Or anything he wrote while editor of the HLR?

    He is a blank slate that people have projected on. He is NOT transparent. Hell, he’s not even honest. Defend him all you will. But you just don’t really know.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  347. Newtons.Bit,

    Just pulled that lengthy comment from moderation.

    I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. I have respect for carlitos even though he and I disagree very much on this. Where you have lost my respect is in your method of argumentation. You have forced me to make the same points again and again, and repeatedly ignored things I have said. You seem to have the poorest grasp of logic of anyone I have conversed with in a while. As I say, I am confident my children could grasp many of these concepts more simply than you have.

    It is my suspicion that you have been deliberately wasting my time — that, or you are really just too dishonest or dim-witted to carry on a coherent conversation and respond to points made by the other side — that caused me to lose respect for you.

    Don’t flatter yourself that you are being reviled because you are a dissenter. You are being reviled because, as JD would say, you are being aggressively dishonest and it is frustrating to talk to someone like that.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  348. “HOW” is an interrogative pronoun; it’s a pronoun that asks a question.” It’s actually an adverb, a noun or a conjunction. Sorry, couldn’t help myself.

    PatAZ (81cf34)

  349. How is that even possible? He’s a mixed-race result of a shotgun wedding; what’s going to be more embarrassing than that in 1961? You think maybe dad was a Klingon or a sheep or something?

    I don’t know because I don’t know what a long form certificate has in the way of information. Is he listed as a Muslim? That shouldn’t be embarrassing, but maybe he would consider it to be. I’m totally speculating here because I don’t know. And it’s very possible there is nothing embarrassing there. I just wonder why he doesn’t make the request, if that is the case.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  350. -Why is that good for him?

    Because of polls of GOP voters who say they won’t vote for a non-birther.

    -He should encourage his opponents to have even less faith and confidence in him?

    They won’t have faith in him. It’s about encouraging his opponents to have less faith in the opposition’s leadership.

    jasonc (b5a79f)

  351. Religion isn’t on there.
    As I said, a good guess is a home birth because that wouldn’t quell any “out of the country” rumors. It would also explain why Obama doesn’t seem to know at which hospital he was born. It’s possible there was a time when Obama himself didn’t know where he was born.
    It’s also possible that at the time he refused to release the long form, it simply didn’t match with the story his campaign was telling. Axelrod had him telling a tale about his father leaving him at 2 years old, when it appears Stanley and Sr never lived together at all. In fact, it seems Stanley lived in Washington most of the time Sr was in Hawaii (after the birth)

    Perhaps he just kind of got trapped in his own story.

    MayBee (081489)

  352. Just so we’re clear, carlitos’s fogbow.com bullcrap notwithstanding, Birtherism started with Hillary supporters.

    Comment by Patterico — 4/23/2011 @ 4:27 pm

    While I apologize for posting that site without fully vetting it, I really was trying to help retire05. I know that it started with Hillary! supporters, and never said otherwise. It was that guy Berg, IIRC. Another good one seems to be – http://barackryphal.blogspot.com/, although again, that one started after the general election. It’s possible that none of these guys noticed Berg, and only tracked it after the general election. That doesn’t make the entire site suspect, but it’s not to their credit either.

    retire05 is looking at Hawaiian birth certificates issued in various years and saying “aha – they have different info on them.” He’s quoting aspects of this conspiracy theory. He’s misinformed.

    Lastly, the name-calling bugs me too. I don’t really like it when JD does it, and I really don’t like when Patterico does it. It’s his blog, but I don’t think it’s necessary.

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  353. The following excerpt is from David LaRocque, CDR, USNR (Ret.) published on April 8, 2011 at Post and Email.

    “How Has Obama Been Able to Hide So Many Things?”

    “…We do not know, with any degree of certainty, Barack Obama’s true nativity and country of origin, parentage, current citizenship status, legal name, medical history, academic/educational history, travel history, residence history, professional client history as a licensed attorney, the history behind actions taken by the Illinois State Bar resulting in the surrender of his license to practice law, legislative history as an Illinois state senator, and the true history of his self-admitted drug use…”

    “What is unknown about this man Barack Hussein Obama is truly incredible. No American citizen could qualify for entrance into military service or for recruitment into any responsible position in business or in the professions without providing the information that is unknown about Barack Hussein Obama…”

    ropelight (289a21)

  354. I will still note that this chucklehead never produced even a scrap of evidence to support his claim that the long form is on microfiche. Or that Obama would have to wait 75 years to get the certified copy of the long form.

    Walls of text and irrelevant bolding notwithstanding.

    He just makes shit up and hopes you won’t notice.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  355. “parentage, current citizenship status”

    This is like birther on steroids. Let me guess, you also think Bill Ayers wrote his book?

    jasonc (6fa251)

  356. Lastly, the name-calling bugs me too. I don’t really like it when JD does it, and I really don’t like when Patterico does it. It’s his blog, but I don’t think it’s necessary.

    I’m not proud of it. It was just that his dishonest style of argumentation irritated the hell out of me. He must have misrepresented my position and/or ignored my responses a couple dozen times at least.

    And, you know, I don’t like it when people do that.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  357. I asked before, but this is a busy topic.

    Which recent presidential candidates have willingly released their university transcripts?

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  358. Actually, I do like when JD goes all mendoucheous twatwaffle on a brother, so let me partially retract. :)

    carlitos (28bbc0)

  359. Al Gore.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  360. Which recent presidential candidates have willingly released their university transcripts?

    I don’t know, but Bush released his TANG documents. Some willingly, some when sued by the AP.

    How do you think that compares?

    MayBee (081489)

  361. I believe there are others but I am not spending all afternoon on this.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  362. McCain didn’t release his transcripts, but was willing to admit he finished at the bottom of his class. So what was the point?

    MayBee (081489)

  363. #359, jasonc, Obama can clear up the questions about his parentage and citizenship status. All he has to do is present valid documentation.

    As for your quip about Bill Ayres, since it’s undeniable that someone wrote “Dreams,” and since the little we have that’s reliably Obama’s written work falls far short of the polished prose published under his name, it’s not unreasonable to speculate that a ghost wrote the book and who that ghost might be. Ayres is certainly a candidate.

    ropelight (289a21)

  364. Now, cariltos-
    Do you think asking a presidential candidate to release his long form birth certificate is better or worse than;
    a- suing to get your political opponents’ divorce records unsealed
    b- the AP suing to have a candidate’s military records released
    ?

    MayBee (081489)

  365. McCain also mitted he didn’t know nothing about economics and even suspended his whole campaign to demonstrate. Jeez what a douche. It’s like it was fate that a douche would be president in 2008 like there’s some kinda douche kismet.

    Daddy! Hey Dad! What’s a two dollar beeyul??

    hf (a12946)

  366. ____________________________________________

    They won’t have faith in him. It’s about encouraging his opponents to have less faith in the opposition’s leadership.

    That will work with those who are so ideologically squishy to begin with that they’ll find themselves giving more benefit of the doubt to Obama instead of his skeptics, birthers included, no matter what. But such folks probably are tilted far enough to the left anyway — if only as closeted liberals — that if there were no controversies or scandals swirling around Obama, they’d give him even more of their support, or at least even more benefit of the doubt. After all, the current occupant of the White House has the most — or in order to give him a bit of leeway, among the most — flat-out scroungy (not to mention ultra-liberal) backgrounds and histories of any American president.

    Mark (411533)

  367. -Obama can clear up the questions about his parentage and citizenship status.

    I don’t understand what questions there are to clear up. Haven’t you seen his birth certificate which has the name of his mother and father, and his passport? Birther steroids.

    jasonc (e9ef3a)

  368. “That will work with those who are so ideologically squishy to begin with that they’ll find themselves giving more benefit of the doubt to Obama instead of his skeptics, birthers included, no matter what”

    I’m talking about polls of GOP’ers who say they won’t vote for someone that rejects birtherism.

    jasonc (e9ef3a)

  369. “retire05 is looking at Hawaiian birth certificates issued in different years and saying “aha, they have different info on them”. He’s quoting aspects of this conspiracy theory. He is misinformed.”

    No, you are trying to twist what I said for your own agenda. I pointed out that it is possible to have a copy of the long form of your birth certificate, that includes much more information than does Obama’s COLB. Susan Elizabeth Nordyke’s birth certificate is from the same month and year as Obama’s, yet contains all the information as does the 1963 birth certificate provided to his readers by snarkybytes. The blogger, snarkybytes, if I remember correctly, even stated when he obtain that copy.

    I am telling you, in no uncertain terms, that if Obama choose to make public a copy of his long form birth certificate, he could. He does not. And that act alone brings into question as to his reasoning why. Why does he bury his university records? Why is there no articles written by this [claimed] brilliant man from the time he was editor of the HLR? Why was he appointed editor? Was it during the time when Harvard was running rampant with affirmative action policies? Was Obama correct when he wrote a fellow HLR student that he was a product of affirmative action? Is that something he would also want to hide?

    But the bigger question here is why you would want to distort what I said. What do you gain by it, except to defend Obama? Nothing.

    Again, Obama is surrounded by mystery. When he was required to release his medical records, as a candidate for POTUS, he release a one page statement from his doctor, that did not even mention the fact that he smoked two packs a day, unlike McCain who released his ENTIRE medical record, including his dental records from the Navy.

    Obama himself is responsible for this controversy, and the longer he goes on being secretive, and hides his past, the more the controversy will grow with his falling popularity. He could end it. Got that, carlitos? He could end it today, and come out looking like a hero for shoving it in the “birthers” faces. He doesn’t. And that tells me he has something to hide.

    Do I care that we have a POTUS that could possibly be a fraud and liar? Yes, for if the theories that you call conspiracy were true, it would throw this nation into a Constitutional crisis like never before. And anyone who doesn’t care, cares little about this nation.

    Honesty, and truthfulness, is something that all Americans have a right to demand from their president.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  370. carlitos,

    Here is what I said about all this before. I am heartened to see my view is still the same!

    Patterico (c218bd)

  371. I will apologize for calling Newtons.Bit names but maintain that his commentary was so pigheaded it made you wonder what was going on.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  372. Patterico,

    I asked:

    Which recent presidential candidates have willingly released their university transcripts?

    Bush and Kerry – that article you linked was written after the election (so they weren’t “candidates”), and talks about how Kerry failed to release his transcripts while there were rumors he had better grades than Bush (they weren’t). I think that I remember posting myself on this site that he hadn’t released them. I don’t remember how Bush’s transcripts came to light.

    Your link on Al Gore says this:

    Gore has never released his transcripts, which were obtained independently by The Washington Post.

    So, when you write:

    People like ME would be less suspicious of OBAMA if he didn’t fail to release (or take steps to release) his records constantly — things like transcripts, etc.

    …I wonder whether you and others have held other candidates to the same standard. I think that the “Obama as mystery” meme is baseless in many respects.

    I don’t believe that Obama, Biden or Palin released their transcripts. McCain had joked about his low rank at the Naval Academy.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  373. “I’m talking about polls of GOP’ers who say they won’t vote for someone that rejects birtherism.”

    jasonc – I’m not familiar with that as a poll question. Do you have a link?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  374. I’m off to dinner and will read your link when I have a chance. MayBee – sorry to duck your question, but I gotta go.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  375. I found the link to the article about Bush and Kerry. “The New Yorker printed Bush’s grades in 1999, but Kerry consistently refused to release his.” They were finally released when he signed his form 180 which I believe I did call on Kerry to sign.

    You based your assumptions on when the article was published but failed to find a complete version. So there you go.

    Other than that you caught my racism!

    Patterico (c218bd)

  376. I haven’t made a huge deal out of every candidate releasing their transcript but thought Obama’s behavior especially on the birth certificate was odd given all the lawsuits. Also I’m a racist.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  377. Carlitos: so you write the Washington Post obtained Gore’s transcripts. So, why wouldn’t they obtain Obama’s? Perhaps they don’t want to. I’m not a birther but there are questions out there. I don’t question where but WHY. Why do we know nothing about this man, who seems to be incapable of speaking without a teleprompter. Who’s the puppetmaster pulling his strings?

    PatAZ (81cf34)

  378. And thanks maybee. You have brought up things I had forgotten about that are so true.

    PatAZ (81cf34)

  379. I hope you know this will go down on your permanent record

    oh yeah well don’t get so distressed

    bumble don’t need no stinkin records

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  380. OK, due to a gas grill fiasco I have a few minutes. I distracted Mrs. carlito with the Sam Axe / Burn Notice movie.

    You based your assumptions on when the article was published but failed to find a complete version. So there you go.

    What? You posted the incomplete link. I didn’t fail to find the complete version of your (incomplete) link. That’s a weird accusation. Maybe you shouldn’t post unless you have time to read what you are replying to?

    I didn’t assume anything. I remember reading this article. I think that I read it from a link posted here. It was written after the election, in June of 2005. It was linked by your blog in June of 2005.

    Kerry did not release his transcripts willingly. I don’t believe that Bush released his transcripts willingly. I don’t believe that Gore, Perot, Nixon or Bob Dole posted their transcripts willingly. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  381. Bob Dole, rush chairman. Damn glad to meetcha!

    Hi Bob Dole, rush chairman damn glad to meetcha.

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  382. THat film had kind of a meh quality to it, I little too treacly as compared to the rest of the series,

    Now pikachu’s passive aggressive act, is just frosting on the cupcake, but you would be surprised, no actually revolted, to the extent
    of the slime, that has been written about this
    woman.

    ASs I’ve pointed out, the media, including the Times and New York magazine, humored the likes of the 9/11 denialists back in 2006, which has to be th vilest accusation imaginable, other than accusing someone of deliberately participating in murder,

    narciso (79ddc3)

  383. maybe in the future people will change their minds and only write nice things about Sarah Palin cause of she will have won their grudging respect with her persistent leadership on the tough issues

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  384. hah just kidding

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  385. The article implied Bush did. I also know Obama did not release medical records. He has been mysterious about Occidental, not releasing contacts. I also explained that this came to a head for me because of his strange behavior re the birth certificate.

    At this point I am going to ask what your point is. Let’s just cut to the chase. Absent a point, my give-a-damn meter is headed into the red.

    Patterico (963c0b)

  386. Frankly, I’m still utterly baffled by what Newtons.bit thought he was doing with his extraordinarily long BS dump.

    He utterly failed to actually competently advance any argument in favor of Obama or Obama’s lack of transparency.

    What the hell did you think you were gaining, Newtons.bit?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  387. He’s a troll, his actions on the AGW threads, should have made that clear.

    narciso (79ddc3)

  388. #372, jasonc wrote, “I don’t understand what questions there are to clear up. Haven’t you seen his birth certificate which has the name of his mother and father, and his passport? Birther steroids.”

    No, jasonc, I haven’t see Obama’s birth certificate, I’ve seen his short-form COLB. Have you seen Obama’s birth certificate which lists not only his parents, but also includes the name of the Hospital where he was born, and the name of the attending physician and several other items.

    See my comment at #335 for a quick overview. It’s obvious you’re late to the party.

    ropelight (289a21)

  389. here is an upbeat relatively cheerful song these little guys are from Vegas which is same place as the Killers are from, no?

    they’re not very similar really

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  390. strange behavior re the birth certificate

    My point is the above. There is no evidence of “strange behavior.” None. Conspiracy theorists are holding Obama to a standard to which they do not hold others. I fear that you are one of them, given your double-standard about presidential transcripts. I would LOVE for you to prove me wrong by showing a list of recent Presidential candidates who have willingly released their university transcripts. Thus far, you have not done so.

    BTW – I believe the phrase is – My give-a-damn’s busted. :)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFG9dwolo3Q

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  391. 381 Regarding Lurch refusing to release his grades. Did not sKerry promise to release his service records? I know James Taranto of Best of the Web Today was regularly bringing up the number of days since the Senior Mass. Senator promised to release them. What with wikileaks and CIA people revealing secret documents to the public, you’d think someone in the know would tell the National Enquirer at least some of the dirt on Obama. Anyone know if his Kenyan auntie is still on public assistance or in public housing in Boston. Zero makes millions annually and cannot help out his relatives?
    Also, anyone venture a guess whom the media wants as the GOP nominee this go-around?

    Calypso Louie Farrakhan (d36a3f)

  392. carlitos,

    I fear that your labeling me a possible conspiracy theorist is the final straw for tonight. You’re determined to ignore my explanations of the full context of my thinking — which is only intensified by Obama’s behavior as president. I get the sense you’re itching to call me a racist and I’m about done as a result.

    Patterico (963c0b)

  393. maybe there’s no conspiracy but Daddy Soros’ boy ain’t right

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  394. I get the sense you’re itching to call me a racist and I’m about done as a result.

    I am not.

    I wish you would answer my questions. A quick aside from Mrs. carlito – “are you still arguing with that guy? Tell him if Obama is re-elected, we’re moving back to Scotland.” :)

    There is no ill intent here. I hope that you don’t pretend otherwise.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  395. I remembered we knew Gore’s grades and Kerry’s and Bush’s and I assumed they released them. You have not proved nobody does but if you do I will retract the reliance on Obama’s failure to release them as one of many many many aspects of his secrecy, meaning I will not apply a double standard.

    Meanwhile if you’re saying I’m a racist say so. You’re always going on about how Birtherism stems from racism and now you’re ignoring my comments on this thread to lump me in with the Birthers. So if you have something to say then say it.

    Patterico (963c0b)

  396. OK our comments crossed.

    Patterico (963c0b)

  397. “I hope you don’t pretend otherwise” rather than “I hope you don’t think otherwise.”

    You’re not trying real hard to keep this from being personal are you?

    Why would you hope I don’t “pretend” anything. Pretending is dishonest and I don’t do it. Which I thought you knew.

    Patterico (963c0b)

  398. I already answered your questions. I hope you don’t pretend otherwise.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  399. Newton was doing it’s best to contribute to the AGW that we are causing, with that remarkable volume of hot air, made even more impressive by managing to have never made a point, despite the volume of verbal diarrhea.

    The rest of you are racist. And mendoucheous twatwaffles. That is all.

    JD (318f81)

  400. “I hope you don’t pretend otherwise” rather than “I hope you don’t think otherwise.”

    I apologize for the snark there. My bad, but it’s tough to understand where you stand.

    I fear that your labeling me a possible conspiracy theorist is the final straw for tonight.

    When you advocate conspiracy theories, this is a risk that you run.

    Meanwhile if you’re saying I’m a racist say so.

    You are not. I hope that this is clear.

    No, I’m not calling you a racist. In your free time, feel free to show how you are holding Obama to the same standard as other presidential candidates.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  401. It’s also possible that at the time he refused to release the long form, it simply didn’t match with the story his campaign was telling. Axelrod had him telling a tale about his father leaving him at 2 years old, when it appears Stanley and Sr never lived together at all. In fact, it seems Stanley lived in Washington most of the time Sr was in Hawaii (after the birth)

    Perhaps he just kind of got trapped in his own story.

    Comment by MayBee — 4/23/2011 @ 4:43 pm

    As I outline in this post on my blog from January 2010 (complete with video), we know for a fact that he lied as early as March 7, 2007 about the circumstances of his parents’ courtship. That was the day he spoke at the Brown A.M.E Church, the birthplace of the march that led to the “Bloody Sunday” riot in Selma that in turn led to the passage of the Voting Rights Act, and eventually turned a spotlight on Martin Luther King, Jr.

    Obama was trying to bridge the gap between himself — a half-white young man who never grew up in a ghetto and was, relatively speaking, privileged — and the Deep South pioneers of the civil rights movement whose roots all led to those brought to America in chains. In his attempt, this happened:


    Obama spoke at the famous Brown A.M.E. Church from which the 1965 protest began, and talked about how black women decided “wurr gow-na walk instedda ride the bus” (1:00), how his white mother said “there’s some good crazaness goin’ ow-an” (2:45) “stirrin’ across tha cunt-tra” (3:00), and portraying the Selma marches as the impetus for his very existence! Obama’s descendant-of-slave-owners mother and his goat-herding father met as a result, he said, of the Kennedy family’s grant to Africans to help them emigrate to America. When they met, their marriage and his birth were deemed feasible because their attitudes were changed when the Selma marches took place. “I’m here,” Obama told the congregation, because “y’all sacrificed for me.”

    Of course, that’s pure compost: Obama was born in 1961, and he was three years old when the first Selma march took place. His father arrived in the United States because of that scholarship program, but before the Kennedys got involved with the funding of it. Here’s the kicker: By the date of the first Selma march on March 7, 1965, Barack Obama Sr. and Stanley Ann Dunham had been divorced for almost a year (March 20, 1964).


    At the time of this event, this lie was overlooked because Hillary Clinton — who was thought to be the eventual Dem POTUS nominee — was still being laughed at throughout the country for her “I don’t feel in no ways tahrd” speech, given three days earlier.

    L.N. Smithee (9eaf5d)

  402. MayBee, I have a response to you currently in comment purgatory. Check to see if it’s inserted at about 7:43 pm.

    L.N. Smithee (9eaf5d)

  403. If you have not read LN’s blog, you are doing yourself a real disservice.

    JD (318f81)

  404. When you advocate conspiracy theories, this is a risk that you run.

    Please identify the conspirators in this conspiracy you seem to think I believe in. Obama and … who else?

    Or is it a “conspiracy” of one I am advocating.

    In your free time, feel free to show how you are holding Obama to the same standard as other presidential candidates.

    Easy. I will no longer assert, even by implication, that Obama has been more secretive about his transcripts than others unless and until I can prove that others have been open about them. You have not proved they aren’t but you have successfully revealed my assumption that they were to be based in insufficient evidence. So I withdraw that assertion. No double standard.

    Now, since I am an opponent of conspiracy theories, perhaps you would like to admit error in your assertion that I am a conspiracy theorist re Obama? If not, them in your free time, tell me who I think he is conspiring with.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  405. I remembered we knew Gore’s grades and Kerry’s and Bush’s and I assumed they released them.

    You have not proved nobody does

    but if you do I will retract the reliance on Obama’s failure to release them as one of many many many aspects of his secrecy, meaning I will not apply a double standard.

    If this makes sense to you, perhaps you could translate it for me? I really can’t tell what you mean here.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  406. You have not proved they aren’t but you have successfully revealed my assumption that they were to be based in insufficient evidence. So I withdraw that assertion. No double standard.

    Cross-posted – please ignore my last post. Kudos, and I encourage you to explore this further.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  407. Geez. Louise. This whole thing is pretty simple, except for strange state laws.

    Public records should be public. Birth records should be considered public records. None of us can help what Hawaii does through it’s laws.

    Nonetheless, the FOIA made the disclosure of federal records public. States have enacted similar laws to the benefit of their citizens.

    Yet, we sit here with the great promiser of the most transparent government ever, sitting on the simplest of the most basic public record.

    There is a reason, but it is not because he is a citizen. He most assuredly is.

    Ag80 (6134b7)

  408. I would guess it says Barry Soetoro.

    JD (318f81)

  409. I would guess, JD, you are probably right in the sense there is indeed something there, but it certainly does not amount to a Constitutional crisis.

    Ag80 (6134b7)

  410. carlitos,

    Can you better explain to me this conspiracy I supposedly believe in? I was always taught a conspiracy requires more than one person but maybe you can provide some illumination.

    I always thought I was anti-conspiracy, given my contempt for the JFK conspiracy theories, the OJ conspiracy theories, the Truther, Trig Truther, and Birther conspiracies.

    But you claim to know me better than I know myself so please fill me in on what I believe.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  411. Yet, we sit here with the great promiser of the most transparent government ever,

    Promiser indeed. Deliverer? Not so much.

    But I think I am not allowed to observe this lest I be labeled a conspiracy theorist.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  412. Ag – agreed, I doubt it is anything that would amount to anything approaching a crisis.

    JD (318f81)

  413. …I wonder whether you and others have held other candidates to the same standard. I think that the “Obama as mystery” meme is baseless in many respects.

    I don’t believe that Obama, Biden or Palin released their transcripts. McCain had joked about his low rank at the Naval Academy.

    I’m not sure all candidates have released college transcripts. G. W. Bush posted his college transcripts online according to this.

    Media Actually Probed Other Candidates

    Obama’s opacity extends to areas most candidates have been forthcoming as the article points out.
    Obama refused to release any real medical records, something almost every other candidate has done, with Clinton being the only recent exception.

    As the article also points out, the media has gone to great lengths to dig up information on other candidates including FOIA requests. It lists some of the stuff that’s been published about other candidates, such as info on McCains’s divorce for example. In Obama’s case there appears to be a striking lack of interest in digging anything up.

    Gerald A (8e99c8)

  414. “No, jasonc, I haven’t see Obama’s birth certificate, I’ve seen his short-form COLB. ”

    It’s got his parents names on it. What’s to clear up here?

    jasonc (62e777)

  415. There’s are big differences between being a citizen, a natural citizen, and a natural born citizen. Only a NBC meets the Constitutional requirement for POTUS. Obama doesn’t qualify.

    ropelight (289a21)

  416. Jasonc is still either playing stupid, or being stupid. Which is it?

    JD (318f81)

  417. -I would guess it says Barry Soetoro.

    Why would you guess that? And why would the name differ from the birth certificate he released?

    -Only a NBC meets the Constitutional requirement for POTUS. Obama doesn’t qualify.

    There we go. In case you were waiting for a birther to stand up and identify themselves…

    jasonc (62e777)

  418. Mr. Patterico:

    You are exactly right. This whole film-flam is a distraction promoted by a supplicant media, an insincere canditate and a consummate politician who knows how to manipulate the narrative.

    Ag80 (6134b7)

  419. He did not release a birth certificate, no matter how many times you state that, it will not make it so. This clown started calling people birthers and casual birthers from it’s first comments here. It is invested in the other fitting into the neat little boxes he has created for them. You are all irrational racist birthers.

    JD (318f81)

  420. Now, since I am an opponent of conspiracy theories, perhaps you would like to admit error in your assertion that I am a conspiracy theorist re Obama? If not, them in your free time, tell me who I think he is conspiring with.

    I was always taught a conspiracy requires more than one person but maybe you can provide some illumination.

    I’m unaware of a rule that conspiracy theories require more than one actor. Maybe you are thinking of RICO?

    Patterico, I don’t want this to end badly. I respect you. I agree with you on 90% of politics. I am posting what I am posting because I want Patterico.com to be a site that continues to offer fact-based conservative arguments. I am NOT trying to be patronizing; I am merely noting that you are tolerating conspiracy theories here.

    A last aside from Mrs. carlito – “you have been talking to this guy all day. Nothing you say is going to get Obama out of office.”

    There’s are big differences between being a citizen, a natural citizen, and a natural born citizen….

    Comment by ropelight — 4/23/2011 @ 8:16 pm

    What would those differences be?

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  421. -He did not release a birth certificate, no matter how many times you state that, it will not make it so.

    Right it just certifies a birth, not a birth certificate. Whatever. Why would you guess the names are different? Why would Hawaii give him a document that is certified to be a “true copy or abstract” of Hawaii records if the names are different?

    jasonc (a9197b)

  422. I’m unaware of a rule that conspiracy theories require more than one actor. Maybe you are thinking of RICO?

    You apparently don’t know the definition of conspiracy.

    con·spir·a·cy   
    [kuhn-spir-uh-see]
    –noun, plural -cies.
    1. the act of conspiring.
    2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
    3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.
    4. Law . an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.
    5. any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.

    Gerald A (8e99c8)

  423. JD is right. The O has never released his birth certificate. That is a fact.

    He is a citizen. That is a fact.

    Everything else is blather. That is a fact, unless the Supreme Court at some point overturns established precedents.

    Ag80 (6134b7)

  424. People have explained the differences above. Rpeatedly. Jasonc either cannot, or will not, comprehend the differences.

    JD (318f81)

  425. carlitos asked, “What would those differences be?”

    For purposes of this debate I’ve already pointed out that only a natural born citizen meets the Constitutional requirement for POTUS. Citizens and natural citizens don’t qualify. See my comment at #105.

    ropelight (289a21)

  426. I’m afraid, ropelight, that your cite does not constitute the law of the land, although it maybe a consideration.

    Ag80 (6134b7)

  427. Ag80, here’s the law of the land.

    Section 1 of Article Two of the Constitution specifies the eligibility requirements for POTUS:

    “No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”

    A natural born citizen is defined as being born within the jurisdiction of the US of parents (plural) who are themselves US citizens.
    m
    Unless I’ve missed something it seems conclusive that Ob

    ropelight (289a21)

  428. Ropelight, we’ve been through all this on this blog before. To put it in a nutshell–Barack Obama fits the definition of “natural born citizen” as that phrase would have been understood at the time the Constitution was written. English common law, and therefore American law after independence, adhered to what we 21st century folks refer to as the anchor baby doctrine.

    The only possible way Obama could not meet that definition is if he was actually born outside the United States, and to date no one has offered any evidence–not even incredible evidence–that he was born outside the United States.

    More importantly, for the rest of you, A good Easter.

    kishnevi (a6ffde)

  429. -Jasonc either cannot, or will not,

    But why would you guess the names are different?

    -A natural born citizen is defined as being born within the jurisdiction of the US of parents (plural) who are themselves US citizens.

    Defined where?

    jasonc (6fa251)

  430. Comment by ropelight — 4/23/2011 @ 9:05 pm
    My comment crossposted. Real briefly, I re-iterate–you’re wrong. That’s not how the phrase “natural born citizen” was understood at the time the Constitution was written. The Founding Fathers would call anyone (except, I suppose, a slave) a natural born citizen who was born within the United States or their territories. Status of the parents was irrelevant.

    kishnevi (a6ffde)

  431. Jasonc – we you wrong, or lying, when you stated Barcky released his birth certificate?

    JD (318f81)

  432. Carlitos-
    I suspect you are avoiding my questions because they lead to the fact that Obama is neither being treated differently than other presidential candidates, nor is he being treated worse than he, himself, has treated political opponents.

    There is no racism. There is no ick. There is no conspiracy.
    There is a politician refusing to release the best evidence regarding a controversy about himself, and a press unwilling to force the issue- as they have with others.

    MayBee (081489)

  433. Sorry, the President’s mom was a citizen. Ergo, he is a citizen. Take it up with the Supreme Court. I suspect you will lose.

    Ag80 (6134b7)

  434. LN Smithee – thank you very much.

    MayBee (081489)

  435. kishnevi, a natural born citizen is not and never will be an “anchor baby.” That’s pure poppycock, and it’s so far wide of the mark as to be laughable.

    ropelight (289a21)

  436. -Jasonc – we you wrong, or lying, when you stated Barcky released his birth certificate?

    Makes no difference to me. It certifies his birth which is what it needs to do. Why would you guess the names would be different? Why would guess that Hawaii give him a document that is certified to be a “true copy or abstract” of Hawaii records if the names are different?

    jasonc (280b35)

  437. Thank you. Facts are not relevant to your narrative. It is rare when your type actually admit that.

    I would guess that because I, like all the others like me, am a huge racist who thinks he is a Kenyan interloper sent to destroy earth.

    JD (318f81)

  438. I’m unaware of a rule that conspiracy theories require more than one actor. Maybe you are thinking of RICO?

    No, I am thinking of conspiracy theories. Which usually involve, you know, conspiracies. Which are agreements among multiple people — at least two! — to do something nefarious.

    For example, it is a conspiracy theory to think that Obama was not born in Hawaii — yet there was a birth announcement, the forgery of a birth certificate (or agreement by multiple people to pretend one exists), the creation of a computer record, etc.

    Ridiculous.

    I am positing a single man who has possibly seen his long form and realizes it has something embarrassing. So he decides to cover it up. Not request it even when sued over the issue. Weird behavior like that.

    No “conspiracy” necessary.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  439. So Bush, Kerry and Gore may not have released their college transcripts, but they were released.
    Obama has not released his college transcripts, and they were not released.

    Let’s discuss how horribly and unfairly Obama has been treated, shall we? How he is being singled out for racist reasons?

    I suspect people want him treated more kindly than others have been treated. More kindly than he has treated his own opponents.

    MayBee (081489)

  440. Also, MayBee has asked a number of questions. It would be nice to respond. She is good people.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  441. MayBee is only slightly less racist than a Grand Kleagle. ZOMFGWTFBBQ! Treat Obama to the same standards as he has his opponents, or how the media has treated others before him? What in the world is the matter with you, woman?!

    JD (318f81)

  442. Carlitos-
    I suspect you are avoiding my questions

    No, my avoidance was as stated – the whole premise is a bunch of crap.

    Now, cariltos-
    Do you think asking a presidential candidate to release his long form birth certificate

    His what? There is no such thing as a “long form birth certificate” so I’m afraid that I don’t know what you mean.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  443. There is no such thing as a “long form birth certificate” so I’m afraid that I don’t know what you mean

    There is. Unless you are playing word games we are talking about what Hawaii officials call a Record of Live Birth. The document we have not seen a copy of.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  444. -I would guess that because I, like all the others like me, am a huge racist who thinks he is a Kenyan interloper sent to destroy earth.

    Don’t need to be that huge. You’d guess that even though you’ve seen a document that is certified to be a “true copy or abstract” of Hawaii records? I think you just didn’t think this through before dropping that line.

    jasonc (e546cc)

  445. the whole premise is a bunch of crap.

    Well, you didn’t say that. But what premise?

    MayBee (081489)

  446. As the top Hawaiian official in charge of state health records in 2008, when the issue of Obama’s birth first arose, Fukino said she thought she had put the matter to rest. Contacted by NBC, Fukino expanded on previous public statements and made two key points when asked about Trump’s recent comments.
    The first is that the original so-called “long form” birth certificate — described by Hawaiian officials as a “record of live birth” — absolutely exists, located in a bound volume in a file cabinet on the first floor of the state Department of Health. Fukimo said she has personally inspected it — twice

    Guess there is a long form birth certificate after all, carlitos.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  447. Jasonc’s hypothetical amounts to the same as wondering about Trig’s birth. Which is what got this whole thing started.

    Did it ever occur to any that the President’s birth records and Trig’s parentage don’t really matter except for a few petty people trying to score political points?

    Sorry, but there it is.

    Ag80 (6134b7)

  448. Jasonc – since the truth matters very little to you, about most of the topics yu have commented on, I really could not care less what you have to say, other than to point out where you are being dishonest. Nothing about what was released suggests that it is a copy of the document the host described above, the Record of Live Birth.

    JD (318f81)

  449. Who said above, and I am paraphrasing, I think we can all agree that Trig Palin was not born in Hawaii, and Sarah Palin is not Barry Soetoro’s mother ….

    JD (318f81)

  450. Patterico is posting stuff without links, so I cannot comment on much of what he posts.

    I am positing a single man who has possibly seen his long form and realizes it has something embarrassing. So he decides to cover it up.

    Cool story, bro!

    MayBee, perhaps you could enlighten me – please name th e recent presidential candidates who have willingly released their university transcripts. Thanks.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  451. Heh.

    Ag80 (6134b7)

  452. Did it ever occur to any that the President’s birth records and Trig’s parentage don’t really matter except for a few petty people trying to score political points?

    It did occur to me, except for this: I do not like it that the current president’s birth circumstances are being used to argue against state laws requiring birth records to confirm the few Constitutional requirements for the office are fulfilled.
    If he didn’t want to release his best evidence for 2008, fine, he didn’t have to. If he is required to in 2012, I believe him that he can. It’s something everyone running for the office should be able to do, and it isn’t bad to require it.

    MayBee (081489)

  453. Carlitos – that was far from the only example she laid out.

    JD (318f81)

  454. MayBee, perhaps you could enlighten me – please name th e recent presidential candidates who have willingly released their university transcripts

    I already answered that. That isn’t what I asked you about.

    MayBee (081489)

  455. MayBee, what did I miss?

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  456. I didn’t imply *any* candidates had willingly released their own records. I said their records had been released- although Obama’s have not. I believe when it comes to transcripts, Obama is being treated *better* than previous candidates.
    But that isn’t what I asked.

    MayBee (081489)

  457. TANG, opponents records, AP lawsuits, etc …

    JD (318f81)

  458. The questions you said earlier you were sidestepping because you were too busy or something.

    MayBee (081489)

  459. Did it ever occur to any that the President’s birth records and Trig’s parentage don’t really matter except for a few petty people trying to score political points?

    Sorry, but there it is.

    Comment by Ag80 — 4/23/2011 @ 9:42 pm

    There what is?

    In another comment that’s in purgatory, I point out that the ultimately BHO’s birth certificate is a Constitutional issue. Trig’s parentage isn’t. Kerry’s medals aren’t. Neither is GWB’s TANG service, or even John Edwards’ love child.

    This is Constitution 101: Either he meets the standard of eligibility or he doesn’t. Obama says he does, and that he can prove it, but he won’t. No sensible person believes anybody who claims to possess evidence of their own credibility, and then stubbornly refuses to provide it.

    L.N. Smithee (9eaf5d)

  460. MayBee – I looked back at what you wrote and I don’t see what you want me to answer. Could you please re-post what you want me to respond to? I do apologize if it’s a pain. Thanks.
    c

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  461. A privacy law that shields birth certificates has prompted Democratic Gov. Neil Abercrombie to abandon efforts to dispel claims that President Barack Obama was born outside Hawaii, his office says.

    State Attorney General David Louie told the governor that privacy laws bar him from disclosing an individual’s birth documentation without the person’s consent, Abercrombie spokeswoman Donalyn Dela Cruz said Friday.

    “There is nothing more that Gov. Abercrombie can do within the law to produce a document,” said Dela Cruz. “Unfortunately, there are conspirators who will continue to question the citizenship of our president.”…

    Hawaii’s health director said in 2008 and 2009 that she had seen and verified Obama’s original vital records, and birth notices in two Honolulu newspapers were published within days of Obama’s birth at Kapiolani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital in Honolulu.

    I can’t post links because of this damn iPad. If I go back for the link, Safari eliminates the quote by refreshing.

    You can take any quote I post and put it into Google if you truly doubt the source.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  462. That is evidence that what is holding up the release of the long form (yes, carlitos, there is a long form) is Obams’s lack of consent.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  463. Now, cariltos-
    Do you think asking a presidential candidate to release his long form birth certificate is better or worse than;
    a- suing to get your political opponents’ divorce records unsealed
    b- the AP suing to have a candidate’s military records released
    ?

    Comment by MayBee — 4/23/2011 @ 5:14 pm

    MayBee (081489)

  464. yes, carlitos, there is a long form

    Cool. Perhaps you could post evidence for this assertion?

    I share your frustration with Safari – it gives me fits on occasion.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  465. Are you actually reading what people write, carlitos?

    MayBee (081489)

  466. Do you think asking a presidential candidate to release his long form birth certificate is better or worse than;
    a- suing to get your political opponents’ divorce records unsealed
    b- the AP suing to have a candidate’s military records released

    I think that asking for a “long form” birth certificate is an appeal to perfection. A logical fallacy, not an argument.

    a – What team Obama did to Jack Ryan was despicable.

    b – I think that the AP suing for Bush’s TANG records was legitimate, given the story that was playing out.

    So, in conclusion, I’d put queries regarding Obama’s “long form” (sic) birth certificate somewhere between a and b.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  467. Carlitos – he posted comments from official that state they have seen it.

    JD (318f81)

  468. I don’t understand how asking for the best evidence is a “logical fallacy”.

    The reason the TANG story played out differently was because the media outlets like the AP found it important rather than something to be argued against (like the birth certificate).

    And the fact that Obama did something despicable to Jack Ryan AND Brett Hull is good evidence against the idea that playing hardball against a candidate and his secrets is RACIST.

    MayBee (081489)

  469. As the top Hawaiian official in charge of state health records in 2008, when the issue of Obama’s birth first arose, Fukino said she thought she had put the matter to rest. Contacted by NBC, Fukino expanded on previous public statements and made two key points when asked about Trump’s recent comments.
    The first is that the original so-called “long form” birth certificate — described by Hawaiian officials as a “record of live birth” — absolutely exists, located in a bound volume in a file cabinet on the first floor of the state Department of Health. Fukimo said she has personally inspected it — twice

    JD (318f81)

  470. State Attorney General David Louie told the governor that privacy laws bar him from disclosing an individual’s birth documentation without the person’s consent, Abercrombie spokeswoman Donalyn Dela Cruz said Friday.

    JD (318f81)

  471. Available on Patterico’s sidebar at Amazon.com

    Where’s the Birth Certificate?: The Case that Barack Obama is not Eligible to be President –
    Hardcover (May 17, 2011) by Jerome Corsi

    Buy new: listed at $25.95, discounted to $14.25
    Available for Pre-order. This item will be released on May 17, 2011.

    Eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping.

    ropelight (289a21)

  472. Jerome corsi is kind of a dick.

    JD (318f81)

  473. Goodnight, you knuckle dragging mouth breathing redneck hicktard racists.

    JD (318f81)

  474. If it is ok to unseal records, then it is ok to unseal records.
    Do you think team Obama can argue otherwise? Can the AP?

    I don’t see how.
    If Obama just doesn’t want to release a copy of his birth certificate, that’s his statement to make. But he can’t hide behind victimhood, his supporters can’t hide behind the idea that it should be off-limits, and the press can’t hide behind the idea that we should take the government’s word for it. They’ve all blown that cover.

    MayBee (081489)

  475. I don’t understand how asking for the best evidence is a “logical fallacy”.

    LOL – please go buy Corsi’s book. Fantastic.

    — 4/23/2011 @ 10:02 pm
    I doubt the source.

    I’ll cut to the chase – if this site is going to entertain birther conspiracy theories, I can’t post here any more.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  476. “if this site is going to entertain birther conspiracy theories”

    carlitos – Please describe what constitutes a birther conspiracy theory by your definition, which seems to include a variety of undisclosed dog whistles and other mysterious agenda items.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  477. I have already corrected you on so called conspiracy theories. To claim I am promoting that after everything I have written is willfully blind.

    You’re not reading what is being written, or not processing it.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  478. carlitos – Perhaps better yet, please list the set of topics about Obama which are out of bounds for questioning because they might be considered racist or conspiracy theories rather than legitimate subjects of inquiry. You can be the blog police on the subject if Patterico agrees!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  479. LOL – please go buy Corsi’s book. Fantastic.

    I have said nothing to indicate I’m interested in Corsi’s book. How is that a response?

    MayBee (081489)

  480. I thought David Freddoso’s book was pretty good and it came out before the 2008 election. It talked about a lot of the things Obama was lying about or covering up in his background.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  481. Freddoso’s probably a nutter birther racist.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  482. corrected you on so called conspiracy theories. To claim I am promoting that after everything I have written is willfully blind.

    Sorry, Patterico – you are attempting to create some unique version of the Obama birth certificate conspiracy theory, whereby:

    – you get to question Obama’s forthrightness regarding his birth documents, while he has already released online he only legal document that Hawaii issues.
    – you are “just asking questions” regarding what information might be on the documents filed about Obama’s birth that might “embarrass” Obama.

    Never mind the fact that I can’t think of a single thing that could appear on a birth certificate that would embarrass a 50-year-old. You apparently know best and can think of items like “he’s a muslim” that might embarrass Obama in your imagination.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  483. “I doubt the source.”

    It was from this Hot Air post

    http://hotair.com/archives/2011/01/24/hawaii-governor-figures-out-that-hes-barred-by-law-from-revealing-obamas-birth-certificate/

    Which quotes a Yahoo news story (probably one of the major news services) but the link no longer works.

    So go back to putting your fingers in your ears.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  484. JD can call Jarome Corsi “kind of a dick.”

    But Corsi has a PhD from Harvard and two NY Tmes best sellers under his belt. His latest book is well on the way to best seller status before it even hits the streets. He can also be credited with derailing John Kerry’s Presidential bid. Not inconsiderable accomplishments for kind of a you know what.

    ropelight (289a21)

  485. carlitos- do you think Obama himself is against exploring embarrassing things about other politicians”
    Do you think the AP is?
    Do you think either Obama or the press are against looking at documents that are filed and private in the hopes they might embarrass someone?
    Do you think it requires a conspiracy to get government records released to the public?

    MayBee (081489)

  486. I hope that Jerome Corsi dies in a car accident – tonight. He’s an asshole. A liar. A prick. His harvard degree means exactly as much as Obama’s harvard degree.

    MayBee –

    No.
    No.
    No.
    No.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  487. Mahmoud ahamnutjob should die from a painful bout of ulcerative colitis.

    And no the nazis were not far-right.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  488. Never mind the fact that I can’t think of a single thing that could appear on a birth certificate that would embarrass a 50-year-old. You apparently know best and can think of items like “he’s a muslim” that might embarrass Obama in your imagination.

    Yeah, that’s a fair description of what I said all right.

    It’s apparently more important to you to bathe in self righteousness than to actually read what we’re saying.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  489. I hope that Jerome Corsi dies in a car accident – tonight.

    OK then.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  490. Yeah, that’s a fair description of what I said all right.

    er:

    I don’t know because I don’t know what a long form certificate has in the way of information. Is he listed as a Muslim? That shouldn’t be embarrassing, but maybe he would consider it to be. I’m totally speculating here because I don’t know. And it’s very possible there is nothing embarrassing there. I just wonder why he doesn’t make the request, if that is the case.

    Comment by Patterico — 4/23/2011 @ 4:38 pm

    Hey, you’re just asking questions. I get it.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  491. “Never mind the fact that I can’t think of a single thing that could appear on a birth certificate that would embarrass a 50-year-old.”

    carlitos – That’s already been well established and nobody cares about your limited imagination. Others are interested.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  492. Then why be so offended on Obama’s behalf?
    He’s got the press playing the victim card for him.
    He can release more information or not. It’s up to him. He’s smart enough to make the choice he thinks is best for him, and he can explain it or not.
    But you know and I know that he isn’t being treated in a harsher manner than any other pol would be or has been. There is no racism there.
    And you should wonder why any politician wants you to see him as a victim of perfectly normal political questions, or why the press would play along with that. It isn’t for your benefit. It isn’t for our benefit.

    MayBee (081489)

  493. Others are interested.

    Cool daley. Here, you can please list the things that might be found on one’s birth certificate about which a 50-year-old should be embarrassed.

    Go:

    _________________________________________________

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  494. Hawaii’s health director said in 2008 and 2009 that she had seen and verified Obama’s original vital records, and birth notices in two Honolulu newspapers were published within days of Obama’s birth at Kapiolani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital in Honolulu.

    This is the teeth-grinding thing about press coverage of the issue: The blatant dishonesty.

    FACT: Former health director Chiyome Fukino did say she had seen Obama’s original records. She did NOT say the information on the original record matched that on the putative COLB. The green sheet commonly misreported as his “birth certificate” is NOT what Fukino was referring to.

    In fact, to my knowledge, no Hawaii official has gone on record saying that the COLB posted on Daily Kos is authentic. Not Fukino, not DOH spokesperson Janice Okubo, not Alvin Onaka, whose signature stamp is on the back of the Obama campaign’s document. MSMers are counting on their readers not to know the difference between a Certificate of Live Birth (aka “long form”) and a Certification of Live Birth (COLB). It is NOT a distinction without a difference.

    Also: The unnamed AP reporter tries to pull a fast one by writing “birth notices in two Honolulu newspapers were published within days of Obama’s birth at Kapiolani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital in Honolulu.” The COLB says nothing about Kapiolani Hospital; that’s information that would be on the long form, which Obama doesn’t want us to see. Obama wrote a letter on his fourth day as POTUS congratulating Kapiolani Hospital on its centennial, referring to it as “the place of my birth.” So Obama wants to have his birthday cake and eat it too: Dribbling out details about his birth that AREN’T in the record that he released, and then refusing to show us the document that proves what he said is true.

    Oh, by the way: Reading that letter at Kapiolani’s centennial celebration was — wait for it — then Congressman Neil Abercrombie. Video here.

    L.N. Smithee (9eaf5d)

  495. OK then.

    Comment by Patterico — 4/23/2011 @ 11:00 pm

    Jerome Corsi deserves what he gets. He capitalizes on people who don’t know any better, and he discredits the entire Republican party, while selling books and making money. Screw him.

    And now Patterico can either pretend that L.N. Smithee, Milhouse, retire05, Mark and others aren’t commenting here, or he can say that this blog welcomes all points of view, even those that are based on conspiracy theories. But, of course, Patterico isn’t a conspiracy theorist, he’s just asking questions.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  496. How does Corsi discredit the entire Republican party? I don’t think Michael Moore discredits the entire Democratic party. What is with this collective responsibility thing? That’s so anti-conservative.

    MayBee (081489)

  497. But, of course, Patterico isn’t a conspiracy theorist, he’s just asking questions.

    Which, despite your bitter snark, is actually true. You skip over the fact that I say there might be nothing to this and you skip over your ignorance re what a conspiracy is. But you never skip a chance to portray yourself as the only reasonable guy around, even if you have to twist others’ words to portray them as unreasonable.

    Oh, and as the self-appointed reasonable guy, you’re hoping people die in traffic accidents. Talk about making the group look bad. Of all the talk on this entire thread, that’s the kind of talk that bothers me most.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  498. How does Corsi discredit the entire Republican party?

    OK, fair point – he has actually endorsed the Constitution Party and done other nonsense. I don’t think that he helps Republicans.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  499. Patterico – you are right. My remark on Corsi was out of line. Sorry for posting it here.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  500. carlitos,

    Can you find a definition of conspiracy anywhere — in a dictionary, law book, anywhere else — that supports your snide suggestion that I am a conspiracy theorist for saying one man is acting like he might have something to hide?

    Patterico (c218bd)

  501. Patterico – you are right. My remark on Corsi was out of line. Sorry for posting it here.

    Comment by carlitos — 4/23/2011 @ 11:37 pm

    That’s OK. I would normally ban someone for saying something like that — but I also take people’s history into account. That comment seemed out of character for you. I think this whole issue makes you act a little out of character, actually. Not sure why that is but that is my feeling.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  502. Sorry, Patterico – you are attempting to create some unique version of the Obama birth certificate conspiracy theory, whereby:

    – you get to question Obama’s forthrightness regarding his birth documents, while he has already released online he only legal document that Hawaii issues.

    Are you suggesting that if Obama demanded a copy of his long form for release to the public, he couldn’t do it? That the best he could do was send a JPEG to Daily Kos, and he’s helpless to do anything more to prove his own truthfulness? Do you REALLY believe that?

    – you are “just asking questions” regarding what information might be on the documents filed about Obama’s birth that might “embarrass” Obama.

    Never mind the fact that I can’t think of a single thing that could appear on a birth certificate that would embarrass a 50-year-old. You apparently know best and can think of items like “he’s a muslim” that might embarrass Obama in your imagination.

    Comment by carlitos — 4/23/2011 @ 10:45 pm

    As I wrote in a comment that is currently in purgatory (but I repeat myself), I can’t think of anything either. That’s why I think it’s not simply embarrassing, it’s devastating the idea that he is eligible to be President.

    That’s the diff between your approach to this issue and mine: You can’t think of a reason why he would be concealing some dark secret, so you assume he is not. I look at his record of mendacity and dishonesty throughout his political life up to this very minute, and can’t give him benefit of the doubt.

    L.N. Smithee (9eaf5d)

  503. Are you suggesting that if Obama demanded a copy of his long form for release to the public

    Long form? What’s a long form?

    /carlitos

    Patterico (8c25d5)

  504. carlitos,

    Can you find a definition of conspiracy anywhere — in a dictionary, law book, anywhere else — that supports your snide suggestion that I am a conspiracy theorist for saying one man is acting like he might have something to hide?

    Patterico (c218bd)

  505. Given that even the most obnoxious lefty trolls who frequent these parts seem not to want to discuss it, can we safely assume that the Salon piece has left Obsessed Andy and his fan club as the only ones left willing to defend Trig Trutherism in print?

    M. Scott Eiland (43e415)

  506. His what? There is no such thing as a “long form birth certificate” so I’m afraid that I don’t know what you mean.

    Comment by carlitos — 4/23/2011 @ 9:31 pm

    Not true. For instance, South Carolina’s Office of Vital Records issues copies of both short form birth cards and long form birth certificates. It even says so on their web site:

    Birth Records Available: The State Office of Vital Records located at DHEC, 2600 Bull Street, Columbia, South Carolina issues two types of birth certifications: (1) a short form certification (birth card) and (2) a long form photocopy. The birth card is a wallet-size certification that contains the birth certificate number, the name of the person whose certificate is being issued, the date of birth, sex, the county of birth, and the date the birth was filed. The long form (photocopy) is a copy of the birth certificate contained in the active files of the Division of Vital Records. Certified photocopies can ONLY be issued at the State Office location.

    http://vitalrecords.accessgenealogy.com/scvital.htm

    I was born in SC and have my own personal copy of my long form birth certificate, although the copy was made in 1977.

    Hawaii’s site just mentions “birth certificates”:

    http://vitalrec.com/hi.html

    Another Chris (4ba18c)

  507. -Nothing about what was released suggests that it is a copy of the document the host described above, the Record of Live Birth.

    The document Obama released bears a signature of a government official below the statement “I certify that this is a true copy or abstract of the record on file in the Hawaii state department of health.”

    You’re saying you guess the record on file has a different name.

    I already mentioned this. You should avoid being so aggressive about your ignorance. It might convince you but it looks kind of sad. You still haven’t told me why you guessed the names would be different despite the certification. But this latest statement makes me think my thinking here was correct:

    -I think you just didn’t think this through before dropping that line.

    jasonc (d76562)

  508. “Here, you can please list the things that might be found on one’s birth certificate about which a 50-year-old should be embarrassed.”

    carlitos – Listing items would be getting into conspiracy theory territory. Why make the assumption that anything would need to be embarrassing. That’s not even necessary for the exercise except under your pretzel logic.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  509. jasonc – How are you coming on finding those polls of Republicans who won’t vote for non-birthers?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  510. In February PPP had a poll that a majority of voters planning to vote in the GOP primary did not think Obama was born in the US. In April PPP released another poll that only 38% of GOP primary voters would be willing to vote for someone that rejects birtherism. And yet birtherism started with Hillary supporters!

    jasonc (b5a79f)

  511. I think its obvious that Obama is hiding something on his original birth certificate. I suspect it is something about the notations of his father or that it reveals that his name was not originally “Barack Obama”.

    I think this behavior is of a kind with all of the deceptive behavior of Obama.

    I think that there is zero chance that the birth certificate reveals anything that would prove his ineligibility for the office of Presidency. I find that the Birthers have no ability to form a coherent argument that there would be, without fabricating large bodies of contradictory “facts” from whole cloth.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  512. jasonc, you are a prime example of the usual troll non sequitur. That Birtherism was introduced by Hillary supporters is a historical fact. That it gains ground later among political opponents is not contradictory.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  513. “That it gains ground later among political opponents is not contradictory.”

    This is not news to me, but it might be for other people who bring up the “historical fact” when we discuss the support of birtherism in the GOP base.

    jasonc (e546cc)

  514. -I suspect it is something about the notations of his father or that it reveals that his name was not originally “Barack Obama”.

    Here’s another with the name thing. Why would you suspect the name is different than the certified document he has released already?

    jasonc (e546cc)

  515. “jasonc” just wants to call you racists. And he admits he d oes not care about the facts. Teh Narrative uber alles.

    JD (318f81)

  516. I think what is happening here is that in order for you to be correct about the name thing now, you feel that you have to admit that you were aggressively wrong earlier. So I’ll just let you save face and you don’t have to say you didn’t think this through. But know that in general this is not a good strategy for being correct about things.

    jasonc (9d38d7)

  517. And yet birtherism started with Hillary supporters

    This might be the only honest thing jasonc has added, albeit by accident.

    JD (318f81)

  518. Happy Easter, even to the mendoucheous twatwaffles.

    JD (318f81)

  519. Perhaps there are reasons other than concealing the content of the ‘long form’ for not releasing it and ending the controversy. It seems tactically smart, since it keeps Birtherism a useful ‘red flag’ for use against political opponents.

    Maybe Obama’s just private; he disclosed as much as the process required, and no more. Sounds like something I’d do.

    CliveStaples (2047a2)

  520. Private? He wrote two books about himself!

    MayBee (081489)

  521. JD

    Happt Easter to you to, and all the little JD’s and mrs JD

    And to Aaron, Pat, DRJ, DALEY!!!! Dustin Simon Jester, SCOTT!, and all of you and yours

    BTW the Hotels had EASTER BRUNCH with modern christian music

    Wife got an Easter Card from her Sharia Company she’s secounded to

    EricPWJohnson (06c012)

  522. jasonc and carlitos – Would you object to people requesting to Obama to produce a long form birth certificate if he was a white man?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  523. Hofstadter was right.

    Angeleno (2ffd38)

  524. This is for Mark.

    Angeleno (2ffd38)

  525. Ha! Howard Kurtz, after going on and on about how nutty the “birther” stuff is, said Andrew Sullivan is just asking questions. On CNN just now.

    MayBee (081489)

  526. Angeleno – Liberals are paranoid, but they’re nowhere near the center.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  527. Happy Easter all. Enjoy your spring spheres.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  528. carlitos says that 35% of Republicans would not vote for someone who was NOT a “birther”. I take it that carlitos think 35% of Republicans are nuts because of that. Yet, Ben Smith of Politico just recently had an article how over 50% of Democrats think Bush was complicit in 9-11. Seems more Democrats are nuts than Republicans.

    Perhaps carlitos, who is reluctant to answer questions, would like to tell us why he thinks a newpaper article is proof of someone’s birth in a particular location. My parents announced the birth of my son, born in St. Louis, in a Lubbock, Texas newspaper. It listed my son, parents and grandparents, date of birth, and weight. It did NOT list any more information. Does that mean that it is proof my son was born in Lubbock, and not St. Louis? According to carlitos it does.

    Carlitos, et al, refused to accept that at the time of Obama’s birth there were at least FOUR types of birth certificates, including those for children born OUTSIDE the Territory or State of Hawaii. He refuses to accept that Obama seems to be the only president that has actually ordered all his university records sealed, or failed to explain why he attended school in Jakarta under a different last name, or if he was adopted by Lolo Soetoro. Or why Stanley Ann Dunham Soetoro entered the name Barry Soetorobama on her renewal application for her passport, but then scratched the name out, not listing any children on her newal application. Who doesn’t list their children on a legal document?

    So many questions that carlitos, et al, have no answers for. They just assume, without proof, that Obama is who he claims he is. No president has ever managed to pull the wool over the American public’s eyes, right? Like Wilson being totally incompacitated during the last part of his administration or FDR not being able to walk and was limited to a wheel chair? None of that ever happened, right?

    I have said, repeatedly, I believe Obama was born in Hawaii. But there is also something he wants to keep hiden from the American people and that is why he has sealed ALL his personal records. That is indisputable.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  529. Retire05, I write this with respect and not snark or aggressiveness. Do you have links for some of the assertions you made above? Specifically:

    1. That Mr. Obama has officially sealed his records?
    2. The comments about Mr. Obama’s mother and the passport renewal?

    If you could give some links, I would appreciate it.

    Simon Jester (dc6e4a)

  530. If it were John Mccain in the white house he would be forced to release his birth certificate or be impeached.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  531. “carlitos says that 35% of Republicans would not vote for someone who was NOT a “birther”.”

    The PPP poll of 400 Republican primary voters released on 4/15 showed the number at 23% with an error rate of 4.9%.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  532. Simon Jester, the Stanley Ann Dunham Soetoro renewal application for a passport can be found on Scribd. You are welcome to download it.

    Also, Occidental, when a FOIA request was made for Obama’s admission records, was taken to court where the judge ruled in favor of Obama’s lawyers that his records could be sealed. Columbia and Harvard have also refused to make public any Obama files.

    Obama is a fraud. In the biography, Obama and Michelle, the author states that Obama was not meeting his deadline on his book, so Michelle took Obama’s notes to William Ayers, who completed the manuscript. Ayers recently admitted that he was the ghost writer of Dreams.

    The differences between Dreams From My Father and Audacity are amazing. One is written by someone who is truely an author, the other by someone who seemed to be no more educated than a high schooler. You cannot read both books and not see the absolute difference in writing style.

    retire05 (2d538e)

  533. I suspect it is something about the notations of his father or that it reveals that his name was not originally “Barack Obama”.(quoting me)

    Here’s another with the name thing. Why would you suspect the name is different than the certified document he has released already?

    Because its among the things that could differ from the COLB. Try Occam’s Razor some day.

    I think what is happening here is that in order for you to be correct about the name thing now, you feel that you have to admit that you were aggressively wrong earlier. So I’ll just let you save face and you don’t have to say you didn’t think this through. But know that in general this is not a good strategy for being correct about things.

    Frankly, jasonc, I think you are an idiot. What was I “aggressively wrong” about earlier? Your comment makes no sense at all. I’ve never claimed that Obama was ineligible for the office.

    It is obvious that there is something about the original birth cert that Obama finds embarrassing enough to conceal. It is irrational to think that Obama is going to such efforts to avoid releasing the original document if it contains nothing new.

    If I’m wrong, and there is nothing new in the document, I’d hardly be embarrassed by that fact. I’d then be struggling to explain to myself what the hell Obama thought he was doing – other than adding to the perception of some that his presidency was illegitimate for no purpose.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  534. I saw a great joke the other day: Obama’s presidency is such an embarrassment, that Kenyans now say that Obama was born in Hawaii.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  535. Hey let the communist trig truthers and their organized crime buddys fight each other it’s better off if they are distracted.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  536. And yes the left are opposed to fascism because they see it as blasphemy against Karl Marx.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  537. A Brit view.

    Angeleno (2ffd38)

  538. Trig Trutherism is awful.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  539. Re: #514, jasonc – 4/24/2011 @ 5:49 am, I see jasonc is still attempting to pass off half-truths as gospel.

    He wrote, “The document Obama released bears a signature of a government official below the statement “I certify that this is a true copy or abstract of the record on file in the Hawaii state department of health.”

    Not quite. There’s no signature, there’s a rubber stamp on the back of the document of Alvin T. Onaka’s signature above the statement jasonc reports. There’s also a date, Jun -6, 2007.

    Readers can come to their own conclusions, but a rubber stamp on the back of a document does not inspire confidence. Now, I wasn’t born in Hawaii, but I’ve lived there, was licensed to drive there in the mid 60’s, and I’ve never seen an official document authenticated on the blank back side.

    Additionally, Obama’s COLB doesn’t appear to have the official seal. It’s supposed to have “Department of Health” around the top curve and “State of Hawaii” at the bottom, and a star on each side separating the two. (Title 11, Hawaii Administrative Rules, Chapter 11-1, Rules of Practice and Procedure).

    Make of it what you will, but Obama’s COLB may only prove he was born alive, but then we already knew that.

    ropelight (9b142f)

  540. So let me get this straight John Mccain had to show his birth certificates but Obama does not have to show all of his birth certificates?

    I despise Mccain but come on the double standard needs to stop.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  541. -Ayers recently admitted that he was the ghost writer of Dreams.

    And there we have it folks. Birthers just like to be punked.

    -Because its among the things that could differ from the COLB.

    But the COLB is certified to be “a true copy or abstract of the record on file in the Hawaii state department of health.” If you think the COLB is different than the records, then you don’t believe the official, certified, government of Hawaii documents released on this. And I’m sorry, but there is no controversy here.

    -What was I “aggressively wrong” about earlier?

    That was directed at “JD,” who said:

    -Nothing about what was released suggests that it is a copy of the document the host described above, the Record of Live Birth

    When in fact the opposite is true. Now you’re going down his same rabbit hole

    -It is obvious that there is something about the original birth cert that Obama finds embarrassing enough to conceal

    Oh not at all. Rather it is obvious there is no “controvery” over his birth and absolutely no incentive to address this any more than to make fun of it.

    -Additionally, Obama’s COLB doesn’t appear to have the official seal.

    See SPQR, ropelight doesn’t believe the COLB, but he’s a straight up birther.

    jasonc (b5a79f)

  542. we should drill a lot more oil why is Daddy’s Soros’ little boy not letting us drill while gas prices soar and soar?

    We need the oil. We need the jobs.

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  543. sorry just *Daddy Soros’* I mean

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  544. jasonc – Simple question. Is more information contained on a long form Hawaiian birth certificate than a COLB?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  545. jasonc – Another simple question. Do you understand the meaning of the word abstract?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  546. jasonc, if you don’t know that that the long form birth cert has more info on it than the COLB, then you really don’t know anything about the controversy at all.

    Your ignorance by the way isn’t an argument. Its only proof that you are an idiot.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  547. The quality of the trolls has really been poor the last year or so.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  548. maybe the birth certificate says he’s from a lost tribe of oil-hating job-killing anti-American cowards

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  549. You know your probably right……..He is from the tribe of soros.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  550. Ya see if you ooppse obama’s policies your an automatic birther.

    Shut up Jason you ruthless punk.

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  551. Wait. Jasonc thinks the state has released a copy of the long form??

    He need to re-read this thread and show me how the COLB is half handwritten, as the long form is.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  552. -jasonc, if you don’t know that that the long form birth cert has more info on it than the COLB, then you really don’t know anything about the controversy at all.

    There is no controversy over his eligibility.

    I don’t doubt that Hawaii might have more info in their records — that would be contained under the word “abstract.” When you tell me that you think that Hawaii has a record with a different name than the COLB, that means you’re telling me you don’t believe the COLB, a certified, official, Goverment of Hawaii document. And then I have to say that the only thing controversial is your lack of belief in official, certified, government of Hawaii documents.

    jasonc (d76562)

  553. Strawman, jasonc. Not to mention misrepresenting what I wrote. Honesty not one of your goals obviously.

    I could explain how the state of Hawaii would issue a COLB with a different name than appears on the original, but you’ve already shown a habit of not understanding rather simple discussions of the law.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  554. See the game here? Sheesh.

    Simon Jester (06eb7a)

  555. jasonc – Another simple question remaining unanswered from earlier. Would you still object to people asking for the release of the long form certificate if Obama was a white man?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  556. It is irrational to think that Obama is going to such efforts to avoid releasing the original document if it contains nothing new.

    If I’m wrong, and there is nothing new in the document, I’d hardly be embarrassed by that fact. I’d then be struggling to explain to myself what the hell Obama thought he was doing – other than adding to the perception of some that his presidency was illegitimate for no purpose.

    I will propose one motive for you to explain all that: arrogance.

    I know the idea that Barack Obama is arrogant will shock you, but that’s all that’s needed to explain his behavior.

    In his mind, he’s said it, and that’s all that’s needed to prove it. He feels that he’s released all the information we, the public, are entitled to. Not only the birth records, but all the other records. (Although at least some of the records of his law practice and teaching job would probably not be released because of the privacy rights of other people–clients, students, etc.)

    Could there be embarrassing information on there? Possibly. But I don’t think so, since I can’t think of a scenario in which information on the long form birth certificate would actually contradict other information he or others have provided. At most, it would show that his parents were already separated and/or he was born at home and not in the hospital.

    And I think the idea that Obama is quite glad to have Republicans seen as dominated by kooky conspiracy theorists has some merit. But arrogance is all that is needed to explain Obama’s actual behavior.

    can we safely assume that the Salon piece has left Obsessed Andy and his fan club as the only ones left willing to defend Trig Trutherism in print?
    Actually, even Andy doesn’t defend the full scale version. His official position for some time past is simply that Gov. Palin’s account of how she gave birth to Trig (the airline flight while in labor, etc.) seems false, and that implicates the credibility of a potential candidate for POTUS. This of course does not keep him from getting in little comments about how she didn’t look pregnant….
    FDR not being able to walk and was limited to a wheel chair?
    Actually, people knew that. My mother saw him at a public appearance, about 1939 or 1940, when she was approximately 11, and knew then he couldn’t walk unaided.
    And , Ropelight, if you want to know what the Founding Fathers thought the expression “natural born citizen” meant, go read Blackstone’s Commentaries, Volume 1, the chapter on subjects, aliens, and denizens, which expresses the law as the Founding Fathers knew it. (It’s available online.) The only change was that British law spoke of subjects and American law spoke of citizens. What people call the “anchor baby” doctrine–that simply being born in the US, even if the parents are not here legally–was the standard view. Or would have been, since the law at the time had no concept of legal and illegal immigration. So all that talk of Obama’s parent’s citizenship status is totally useless.

    And in all this, I have yet to encounter any scrap of evidence which could help prove, even as circumstantial evidence, that he was born anyplace other than Hawaii. It’s rather like OJ’s claim that someone else was the murderer–neither he nor anyone else has come up with a scrap of evidence to point a finger at who that someone was, despite the fact that the most efficient conspiracy in the world would be unable to completely expunge such evidence. (Of course, we know why OJ can’t provide such evidence….)
    If Obama was born somewhere else (even if it was only in San Francisco and not Honolulu) no one has come up with any evidence I’ve seen to suggest it, even though it would be impossible to completely get rid of that evidence, no matter how efficient the conspiracy was.

    kishnevi (14ed7d)

  557. Wife got an Easter Card from her Sharia Company she’s secounded to
    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 4/24/2011 @ 8:06 am

    — Did the card read “Thanks for giving us something to hate for the past 2,000 years”?

    Icy Texan (250324)

  558. jasonc has full faith & credit in the guvmint.

    Icy Texan (250324)

  559. -I could explain how the state of Hawaii would issue a COLB with a different name than appears on the original

    The point is that they couldn’t. At least, they couldn’t with the statement that it was certified to be “a true copy or abstract of the record on file in the Hawaii State Department of Health.” I don’t see how they can make that statement without the name being the same in both “the record” and the document released.

    jasonc (e035aa)

  560. That was directed at “JD,” who said:

    -Nothing about what was released suggests that it is a copy of the document the host described above, the Record of Live Birth

    Your desire to continue to conflate the actual birth certificate and the COLB, despite having had the difference laid ow repeatedly for you, confirms that you will not allow facts to get in the way of your Narrative. You are invested in that.

    Now he is just running around with the goalposts.

    JD (318f81)

  561. kishnevi, well obviously your explanation is consistent with Obama’s character. However, it still seems to not fully explain his behavior … at least to me.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  562. jasonc, I know you don’t understand it. But since you don’t have a clue regarding the facts and law of the situation, its not a surprise.

    Enlightening you in the face of your brazen dishonesty is not of interest to me.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  563. There’s really nothing dishonest about believing the Government of Hawaii’s statement that the COLB is “a true copy or abstract of the record on file in the Hawaii State Department of Health.”

    I’d say it’s quite controversial, if not dishonest, to disbelieve that!

    jasonc (be9572)

  564. Like I said . . . ^^^

    Icy Texan (250324)

  565. Jasonc admitted unthread that he simply did not care about the actual facts involved. He has his Narrative, and is sticking to it, dammit. You are all mouth breathing cretinous racists.

    JD (318f81)

  566. When you tell me that you think that Hawaii has a record with a different name than the COLB, that means you’re telling me you don’t believe the COLB, a certified, official, Goverment of Hawaii document.

    100 percent false.

    I believe the COLB is a certified, official, Goverment of Hawaii document.

    I also know, because Hawaiian officials have said so, that Hawaii has a record with a different name than the COLB. It is a Record of Live Birth — colloquially referred to as the “long form” certificate — and its existence has been confirmed by articles such as the one by Michael Isikoff discussed earlier in this thread.

    Learn first and then speak.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  567. Kishnevi may be right.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  568. _________________________________________

    This is for Mark.
    Comment by Angeleno — 4/24/2011 @ 8:23 am

    Some people’s brains are wired innately to the left or right, so they’ll be liberal or conservative no matter what. But I also think emotions mixed together with basic logic and common sense play a big part in the way people’s thought processes in general work and how they evolve through life (or devolve—people being on the right in their youth and ending up on the left in adulthood). Therefore, there is this well-known phrase, sometimes attributed (or mis-attributed) to Winston Churchill:

    “If you’re not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you’re not a conservative at forty you have no brain.”

    Would you still object to people asking for the release of the long form certificate if Obama was a white man?

    It would be better if the question were “would you still object if Obama were a black conservative?” I know I’d continue to have trouble with the gameplaying of such an alternative-reality version of Obama, regardless of his race. I don’t know how liberals like jasonc would react.

    Mark (411533)

  569. -Jasonc – we you wrong, or lying, when you stated Barcky released his birth certificate?

    Makes no difference to me. It certifies his birth which is what it needs to do.

    jasonc’s acknowledgement that the basic facts make no difference to him.

    JD (318f81)

  570. Mark – I think the answers to the question I posed in #563 illustrate who the real racists are in this debate and represent the reason I have not yet received an answer to the question from jasonc, carlitos or anyone else opposing the release of the records.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  571. Yeah, daleyrocks. And I think we can surmise by his past actions that Barack Obama himself would not be opposed to trying to get an opponent’s records released if he thought it would help him. Race wouldn’t matter.

    MayBee (081489)

  572. MayBee – Obama deserves special treatment because he is black and you are a racist for denying that.

    If he does not deserve special treatment because he is black, then somehow you are a racist for denying the claims of people opposing the release of information that you are racist.

    Go figure.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  573. Heads they win, tails you lose, or some such BS by letting others control the narrative or letting fear that they will control the narrative win.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  574. Carlito’s asked a very good question regarding what possible information could be on a long form birth certificate that would possibly be embarrassing to a 50 year old? I wonder if anyone has a relative, or friend, etc., from Hawaii that was born there in the early 1960s and would be willing to request a copy of his or her long form birth certificate, and make it available for publishing on Patterico’s site? If so, this would at least provide a proxy certificate to compare the short form with the long form version and would help determine what other information may be on Obama’s long form certificate that is not public knowledge. Any thoughts?

    BT (74cbec)

  575. BT, that’s already been done.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  576. From Notes on Blackstone’s Commentaries, Structure and Organization of the Federal Government, Section III, Article 3, #1.

    1. Congress being authorized to establish an uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States, it may well be questioned how far the states can possess any concurrent authority, on these subjects.

    If, however, a doubt should arise respecting the former, it might be presumed, that the rights intended to be conferred by this uniform rule of naturalization, should be, in general, confined to such as might be derived from the federal government, without infringing those rights which peculiarly appertain to the states.

    Thus a person naturalized pursuant to the laws of the United States, would undoubtedly acquire every right that any other citizen possesses, as a citizen of the United States, except such as the constitution expressly denies, or defers the enjoyment of; and such as the constitution or laws of the individual states require on the part of those who are candidates for office underthe authority of the states.

    Five years residence, for example, is required by the laws of Virginia, before any naturalized foreigner is capable of being elected to any office under the state. It is presumable that his being naturalized under the laws of the United States would not supercede the necessity of this qualification.

    ropelight (9b142f)

  577. Oh well, so much for that idea.

    BT (74cbec)

  578. As craig Ferguson says, if it’s written down it must be the troof!

    Icy Texan (250324)

  579. -I also know, because Hawaiian officials have said so, that Hawaii has a record with a different name than the COLB

    Now I get the source of the confusion.

    I’m talking about the name ON the document — the name of the person — “Barack Hussein Obama.” Not the name OF the document, “COLB” or whatever else Hawaii has.

    This all started when JD said he guessed the name Soetoro would be on the Hawaii government record, and I pointed out that would mean JD doesn’t believe the certification on the document we have already seen, that states it is a “true copy or abstract of the record on file in the Hawaii State Department of Health.”

    jasonc (d76562)

  580. jasonc, there are many scenarios where the state will issue a COLB with a different name than the original birth record. Legal name changes, adoptions and even surgical sex change.

    Play your little faux ignorant game elsewhere. You’ve long ago bored us.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  581. -Would you still object to people asking for the release of the long form certificate if Obama was a white man?

    It would be just as pathetic.

    Don’t you remember that SNL sketch where eddie murphy got made up to be white? White folks have it different.

    jasonc (d76562)

  582. SPQR – “jasonc” only cares about Teh Narrative,and calling people birthers and racists. he long ago admitted that the facts make no nevermind to him.

    JD (318f81)

  583. So I’ve noticed, JD. He certainly is unable to even recite the basic facts of the controversy at all.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  584. Makes no difference to me. It certifies his birth which is what it needs to do.

    Jasonc states that the basic facts make no difference to him.

    JD (318f81)

  585. The most cynical and underhanded attempts to prevent reasonable people from inquiring into Obama’s eligibility is labeling Americans who believe they deserve to know whether Barack Hussein Obama meets the eligibility requirements listed in Article 2, section 1 of the Constitution as “birthers.”

    That’s simply an ugly example of mud slinging and name calling in one of it’s more pernicious forms. It’s an attempt to brand people as nutty, obsessed with taboo interests, as somehow outside the bounds of reasonable inquiry. It’s the dirty work of charlatans and guttersnipes.

    Asking rational questions about Obama’s eligibility is intentionally conflated with asking obviously silly questions, clearly beyond the realm of reason, to silence anyone bold enough to point out the emperor is naked.

    Legitimate unanswered questions about a great many of the events surrounding Obama’s background and overall eligibility persist. They remain not only unanswered, but the manner in which those in the Obama Administration and his sycophants and enablers have refused to respond to legitimate inquires reveals a corrupt pattern of stonewalling and deception.

    That same pattern is evident not only in MSM reporting, but also on FOX NEWS and among Conservative media figures who refuse to report on the issue. They too distort, misdirect, or ignore the eligibility issue altogether.

    ropelight (9b142f)

  586. -Legal name changes, adoptions and even surgical sex change.

    Those create other records in the vital record system. Other records that are available with index data. We know Obama has only the birth record.

    -The most cynical and underhanded attempts to prevent reasonable people from inquiring into Obama’s eligibility is labeling Americans who believe they deserve to know whether Barack Hussein Obama meets the eligibility requirements listed in Article 2, section 1 of the Constitution as “birthers.”

    How shall we label people punked by Bill Ayers? It’s gotta have a zing to it, like ‘birther’

    jasonc (347e83)

  587. punked by Bill Ayers? We call them murder victims you scummy troll.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  588. We know Obama has only the birth record.

    Really? You know that?

    SPQR – murderous domestic terrorists are punchlines to people like jasonc.

    JD (318f81)

  589. Comment by ropelight — 4/24/2011 @ 2:11 pm
    [mild laughter]
    As Alexander Pope wrote, a little learning is a dangerous thing, and apparently ropelight is a good example.

    Look, Blackstone’s Commentaries were written in the UK in the 1760s, before there was a United States, much less a federal government or a Constitution. They summarize English common law as it stood at that time, and were probably the most widespread reference and introduction to the law for non-lawyers in British America and later in the early United States. In other words, when we read Blackstone’s original text–not the later comments by other lawyers, such as the one you posted (which, btw, has absolutely nothing to do with the definition of ‘natural born citizen’)–we find the law as it was known to the Founders (several of whom, of course, were themselves practicing lawyers). Which is why I referenced him. And if you read what Blackstone actually wrote on the subject, you will find that you definition of ‘natural born citizen’ is wrong. In fact, Blackstone explicitly refers to your definition as being the practice in 18th century France, and then proceeds to explicitly reject it.

    Now, on to the real question: why does it matter? Do you have any evidence that suggests Barack Obama was born outside the United States? You yourself said in an earlier comment that you think he was actually born in Hawaii? So why do make a fuss on this point, if you think he is actually eligible to be President of the United States? Why not make a fuss about other things that actually might reflect on what he does as President–like his medical and college records?

    kishnevi (38f6c3)

  590. I think it’s a dead accurate measure of bumble’s dignity that he’d countenance this sort of speculation. That he’d encourage it. A right proper gentleman would say hey that’s my daughters’ daddy you’re talking about, and put this to rest.

    But Obama trash is as Obama trash does and there ain’t nuffin to be done for it.

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  591. There’s something to that, pikachu, but remember, he was one, who believes the Constitution is focused
    on ‘negative liberties, what the government can’t do rather than what it can,he want to ‘fundamentally
    transform this country’ and dagnabit, he’s well on his way.

    narciso (79ddc3)

  592. yes, he is

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  593. … let me explain that when I use the word “copy” in this thread, I mean the sort of thing you might get if you took a document and ran it through a Xerox machine.

    You know, a “copy.”

    From what I understand, (picking a year out of thin air) – In 1950, when you went to get a “certified copy” of your birth records, a registrar pulled up a piece of official state paper, stamped “copy” on it, looked up your “official birth record,” and then hand-wrote or typed all of the relevant info onto your new copy, and it was sealed with the state seal. Now you have a ‘certified copy’ of your birth certificate. You can go get a passport or drivers license or whatever.

    I have several visas in my passport that were hand-written by various government officials from around the world. Many contain typos, and in one my NAME is misspelled. Yet, they were affirmed by various state departments and I was permitted to travel by using them.

    Yes, now we have Xerox machines. However, the fact remains that the fields filled in and affirmed by a registrar / notary / state official constitute a “certified copy” of the birth record.

    That’s something I was trying to get across last night, in between my admitted and apologized-for mendoucheity.

    carlitos (c2a84d)

  594. you get to question Obama’s forthrightness regarding his birth documents, while he has already released online he only legal document that Hawaii issues.

    By issues you mean at the time they are born or when someone wants a later copy of it? If you mean the latter that is obviously beside the point of the discussion.

    Are you aware that Gov. Abercrombie announced his intention to obtain Obama’s actual birth certificate and mysteriously then announced he couldn’t do so?

    You have a link that proves that?

    Gerald A (8e99c8)

  595. By issues you mean at the time they are born or when someone wants a later copy of it? If you mean the latter that is obviously beside the point of the discussion.

    By copy I don’t mean something that is word for word reproducing the original or course. Actually that’s the point of th whole discussion.

    Gerald A (8e99c8)

  596. you get to question Obama’s forthrightness regarding his birth documents, while he has already released online he only legal document that Hawaii issues.

    You have a link that proves that?

    [Combined 2 different things in the previous post]

    Gerald A (8e99c8)

  597. “It would be just as pathetic.”

    jasonc – Thank you for admitting that Obama deserves no special deference with respect to these requests for information and that it is not racist to make them.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  598. From 10/8/2008:

    In a lawsuit styled Berg v. Obama, lawyers for Barack Hussein Obama have filed a Motion for Protective Order, seeking to block discovery until his motion to dismiss is ruled on by the court. The Motion for Protective Order filed by Obama and the Democratic National Committee, asks the court to issue a protective order stopping “all discovery in this action pending the Court’s decision on defendant’s motion to dismiss the action for lack of subject matter jurisdiction and for failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted.”

    The motion to block production of documents is just the latest in a series of filings in the case, but has become a focal point of the suit. According to a web site maintained by the Plaintiff, the Plaintiff requested that three documents be produced by Obama:

    1. a certified copy of Obama’s “vault” (original long version) Birth Certificate;

    2. a certified copy of Obama’s Certificate of Citizenship; and

    3. a certified copy of the Oath of Allegiance taken by Obama at the age of majority.

    http://tallahassee.injuryboard.com/miscellaneous/barack-obama-seeks-to-block-discovery-in-citizenship-lawsuit.aspx

    The issue has been the original birth certificate. If you want to call it the long form or something else, the bottom line is, Obama blocked its release. Abercrombie for some reason was unable or unwilling to release it after announcing his intention to do so.

    You seem to be insisting there is no other possible document that could be released other than what Obama released or that the original could not contain any additional info. The first claim is clearly erroneous, as Obama blocked its release. You haven’t provided any source for the second claim.

    Gerald A (8e99c8)

  599. Ropelight hits the nail on the head in his 3:00 pm comment. Bravo!

    L.N. Smithee (9eaf5d)

  600. Now, on to the real question: why does it matter? Do you have any evidence that suggests Barack Obama was born outside the United States? You yourself said in an earlier comment that you think he was actually born in Hawaii? So why do make a fuss on this point, if you think he is actually eligible to be President of the United States? Why not make a fuss about other things that actually might reflect on what he does as President–like his medical and college records?

    Comment by kishnevi — 4/24/2011 @ 5:05 pm

    I won’t speak for ropelight, but as someone who also believes he was probably born in Hawaii, I’ll speak for myself.

    A: There’s no reason to “make a fuss” about Obama’s medical and college records because neither of those things are any of our business constitutionally. He is not bound by the Constitution to supply his medical records or his educational transcripts. Only two criteria qualify you for the job: Being a “natural born citizen” (however it’s defined), and having reached the age of 35. That makes it our business, but his lawyers argue that it’s not — in fact, they suggest there is no reason for any challenge to eligibility because there is no statute enforcing Article II, Section 1.

    I was looking forward to Arizona Governor Jan Brewer signing the so-called “Birther bill” passed by the Arizona legislature because it would have brought things to a head; Having already said on record that the long form exists and that it’s on the up-and-up, would the Obamastration comply with the new law, and produce it? Or would it come up with yet another reason to keep it out of the public’s sight, pretending that there was some grand legal principle involved in not revealing it?

    If a politician wants to keep a secret that badly, I want to know about it. Why don’t you?

    L.N. Smithee (c37d8e)

  601. kishnevi, enjoy your mild laugh at my expense. I saved the information at #587 to my hard drive ( I thought it might come in handy later) but then inadvertently hit the “Submit” button.

    I was interested in retaining it for the mention on the limits of citizenship “…such as the constitution expressly denies, or defers the enjoyment of; and such as the constitution or laws of the individual states require on the part of those who are candidates for office underthe authority of the states.”

    I didn’t intend to post it as a response to your suggestion that I consult Blackstone, although your recommendation did initiate my inquiry.

    Posting it was my mistake and it’s become your windfall.

    That aside, I must say that I find Blackstone quite informative, however he’s less useful than Emmerich de Vattel, John Jay, Alexander Hamilton, or John Bingham on the issue of natural born citizens and their proper role as President and Commander in Chief.

    For example John Jay wrote to George Washington on July 25, 1787 while Washington was Presiding Officer of the Constitutional Convention:

    “Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our National Government; ant to declare expressly that the Commander in Chief of the American Army shall not be given to not devolve on, any but a natural born citizen.”

    kinsnevi, as for the balance of you comment, LN Smithee has responded. I’m grateful for his kind words and for his wise contributions here.

    ropelight (5adb70)

  602. “jasonc – Thank you for admitting that Obama deserves no special deference with respect to these requests for information and that it is not racist to make them.”

    You cut out the eddie murphy part!

    Does it make you feel happy to put words in the mouths of others?

    jasonc (a9197b)

  603. Does it make you happy to put words in the mouths of others?

    Projection much jason?

    DohBiden (15aa57)

  604. Yeah, daleyrocks. How . . . DARE you accuse jasonc of not playing the race card!!!

    Icy Texan (327fb5)

  605. “Yeah, daleyrocks. How . . . DARE you accuse jasonc of not playing the race card!!!”

    Icy – They get annoyed when you take away their race card.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  606. I still think it’s possible that Barry Soetoro’s (legally adopted) name was amended to the original birth certificate way back when, and that he has never legally changed his name back to Barack H. Obama. Is it a problem to take an oath of office and sign legislation using not your legal name? Or is it merely an embarrassment?

    elissa (069407)

  607. Who cares if that assertion is true or not, Elissa. Run with it. Make us proud.

    nuke 'em all (83f0ba)

  608. She did not make an assertion, asshat. “I still think it’s possible …”. pretty much the exact opposite of what you claimed.

    JD (318f81)

  609. it was like a conjecture or whatever

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  610. I would agree with your point, based on pure semantics JD. But it should be noted that people of your ilk take these blind stabs as gospel and away you go. Headsock.

    nuke 'em all (83f0ba)

  611. Those things are beyond Yelverton’s ability to comprehend.

    JD (318f81)

  612. I would agree with your point, based on pure semantics JD.

    There is nothing semantic about it. You were wrong, and remain wrong.

    JD (318f81)

  613. ilk alert on aisle five.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  614. Finding an ilk costume for Halloween is hard, I think.

    elissa (069407)

  615. just ask Mr. JD he’d let you borrow some ilk-wear I bet

    happyfeet (760ba3)

  616. Apparently i have illk. Who knew?!

    JD (318f81)

  617. Comment by elissa — 4/25/2011 @ 3:26 pm

    There are various permutations in play (I think your idea is a distinct possibility). Among other things, one doesn’t necessarily need to go to court and get a paper signed by the judge. Just start using the name, at least in some places, and it becomes your legal name. Of course one still needs to go through the appropriate hoops to get valid DLs, voter registration, etc. etc. most of which require getting a paper signed by a judge. But that merely applies to proving your identity, not actually changing your name.

    Where this might have come into play is if Obama’s stepfather in Indonesia adopted him, and Obama then reverted to the current form of his name when he returned to the US or became 18. It would not necessarily invalidate anything he’s done since then, although I’m sure it would cause some embarrassment and no doubt some people would try to get his actions ruled invalid based on that.

    I might note, that as a person close to Obama’s age, I had to submit certified copies of my birth certificate when I got my first DL and my first passport, and I would think Obama would have had to do so as well.

    If a politician wants to keep a secret that badly, I want to know about it. Why don’t you?

    I think it’s a red herring, as they call it in the mystery genre.

    Think of it this way: suppose Obama has something which he wants to keep secret, or at least want to keep people from paying attention to it. Call it X. Maybe it’s the connection with Ayers, maybe it’s something to do with his career at Occidental or Harvard, or something that happened in Chicago, of which we may something, but don’t know enough to realize it’s a serious issue.

    Now what’s a good way of keeping people from noticing X? Perhaps he has taken steps to hide X, but he can’t guarantee that people won’t keep from noticing and then investigating X. So he uses the birth certificate issue as a nice dodge. Make people think he has something to hide about it, and people will get so wrapped in the pseudo mystery of the birth certificate that they won’t notice X even if comes up so close to them that, as my co-workers say, if it was a snake it would bite them. Get them to focus on the birth certificate and they won’t bother about X.
    Other possibilities: the certificate involves something embarrassing, but there’s no link to anything illegal.

    Or, since there’s no evidence that he was born somewhere else, he feels there’s no reason for him to release the “long form”: if we were reasonable, we would accept his claim that he was born in the US because there’s no reason not to, and he shouldn’t (he feels) be obliged to prove it–after all, with only a few exceptions, that’s been the case with every other POTUS. Plus, as I noted above, his known arrogance and the obvious trend by which he tries to keep all records of his previous life secret.

    Which is why I think those other records are actually more important than his birth records: if all that results form the the birth certificate ruckus is a document that conforms to all the other available evidence, then it’s not important. We know he’s eligible according to the Constitution. We know he can sit in the chair in the Oval Office. But those other records would show what he’s doing while he sits in that chair.

    someone who also believes he was probably born in Hawaii
    you emphasize the word “probably” in that sentence, which implies you think there’s evidence that suggests he was not born there. Could you point me to it? (Because if there really is valid evidence like that, my opinion as expressed above would change.)

    kishnevi (07cf78)

  618. 541.I saw a great joke the other day: Obama’s presidency is such an embarrassment, that Kenyans now say that Obama was born in Hawaii.
    Comment by SPQR

    I stumbled onto that, which is amusing. Is there anything else in the last 300 posts I should take the time to look at?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  619. Is an ilk a sick elk?

    kishnevi (07cf78)

  620. Don’t entertain its stupidity, kish. You’ll only provoke it.

    nuke 'em all (83f0ba)

  621. MD in Philly, nope.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  622. MD – I am to blame for much of it. Lo siento, mi amigo.

    JD (318f81)

  623. “I still think it’s possible that Barry Soetoro’s (legally adopted) name was amended to the original birth certificate way back when, and that he has never legally changed his name back to Barack H. Obama.”

    In order to think this you have to disbelieve the official, released, certified, hawaii government records. It’s the heart of birtherism.

    jasonc (e9ef3a)

  624. In order to think this you have to disbelieve the official, released, certified, hawaii government records. It’s the heart of birtherism.

    Lie. That you refuse to listen when people spell it out for you suggests that you care more about calling people birhters than you do about facts. Which is something we already knew.

    JD (318f81)

  625. jasonc, you really don’t know what you are talking about – as has been demonstrated repeatedly.

    Thinking that Obama is hiding something regarding his original birth docs is not the heart of birtherism. The heart of birtherism consists of thinking that something in the birth records makes his presidency invalid. Which is a different issue.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  626. ‘The heart of birtherism consists of thinking that something in the birth records makes his presidency invalid. ‘

    Which means disbelieving the document he’s released. So does thinking his name has been changed to soetoro or whatever when Hawaii issued a document saying their records show his name as Barack Hussein Obama II. You’re just choosing to pick on a different part of the document to disbelieve, whether the name field or the place of birth field.

    jasonc (f22ca9)

  627. No, jasonc, you are still full of crap.

    First of all, I don’t have to disbelieve the record. There are legal processes consistent with some speculation that result in the record produced. This has been pointed out to you and yet you continue to misrepresent. Birtherism is believing that Obama is not a US citizen despite there being no evidence and no coherent set of facts and law to support it.

    So your attempt to just name call people who rationally conclude that Obama is hiding something fails with the rest of your incompetent trolling.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  628. nuke ’em all – Why do you hate black people?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  629. -There are legal processes consistent with some speculation that result in the record produced.

    The question here is whether they are consistent with the speculation this person detailed:

    “I still think it’s possible that Barry Soetoro’s (legally adopted) name was amended to the original birth certificate way back when, and that he has never legally changed his name back to Barack H. Obama.”

    jasonc (280b35)

  630. Comment by nuke ’em all — 4/25/2011 @ 6:20 pm

    That would be “Mr. Kishnevi” to you, sir.

    I really only want to throw out something that I saw in the comments tonight on Hot Air–that the embarrassing information on the birth certificate is simply that, because Obama, Sr. was to all intents and purposes absent, the race box would have been filled in with the mother’s race–meaning Obama would have been written down as white. Meaning Obama is not our first black president and the racists (TM) have won!

    And completely off topic, but I may as well post it here, Boehner is whoring after strange gods again. Or at least trying to get some of that class warfare action away from Obama.

    kishnevi (4b8b03)

  631. Daley- don’t confuse me with a card-carrying republican/conservative.

    nuke 'em all (83f0ba)

  632. I am curious as to what names “nuke em all” and “jasonc” were previously banned under.

    JD (318f81)

  633. It never really takes the trolls much time to start calling people racists. SPQR pegged this one, immediately.

    JD (318f81)

  634. “Daley- don’t confuse me with a card-carrying republican/conservative.”

    nuke ’em all – Of course not, that’s why I asked the question I did. Why not answer it?

    Good thing we’ve got the EPA to save us from lower gas prices, right.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  635. Kishnevi, be wary of attempts to box Boehner in. I wonder if he was quoted selectively.

    That said, the article you link just tosses in the high gasoline price as though repealing a ‘tax break’ would lower it. I think Boehner was quoted enough, noting that the democrat proposal would not lead to more jobs or more domestic oil drilling, that it’s unlikely he’s agreeing to any such tax increase.

    The deck has to be stacked, every single time. Though frankly I think we should charge the same tax to all companies, and also reduce the red tape, and these problems would sort themselves out.

    I think the guess that Obama’s certificate says he’s white is as good as any. I think Hillbuzz’s theory about his name is also pretty good. Either way, I can’t hold it against him if his certificate says something odd on it. He’s got no control. I just think his handling of this issue is weird, even though I also think he’s clearly eligible and the legal question is actually well answered.

    Thankfully, this is not going to be a major issue of the next election. Really.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  636. How would repealing a tax break reduce the cost of gas?

    JD (318f81)

  637. Have to see the interview, to make sure they didn’t do the same thing, they did to Barbour some weeks ago

    narciso (79ddc3)

  638. How would repealing a tax break reduce the cost of gas?

    Obviously, it would drive gas prices higher. Rather directly, too.

    And the article doesn’t exactly say otherwise. They just throw in the sentence about gas prices at a strange point, which suggests it’s a problem that pushed Boehner in the direction of compromising on the tax increase. They just lay that kind of seed.

    Similarly, this is the umpteenth time I’ve read that Boehner is about to or already has compromised in some major way that he didn’t. I guess that’s the new Alinsky trick.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  639. Of course, Boehner didn’t do himself any favors with the budget. It’s not hard to believe he will compromise. Unless he has something major planned on the debt ceiling, we’re going to see the party blow their political advantage.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  640. “How would repealing a tax break reduce the cost of gas?”

    JD – Getting rid of oil company “sudsidies” would not lower gas prices. Only morons think that.

    Thank God we have the EPA to protect us from lower gas prices! They just forced Shell to call off drilling in the Arctic today. Woo-Hoo!!!!!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  641. Donald Trump also told Anderson Cooper tonight that he heard just two days ago that Obama’s birth certificate (not that crappy COLB thing) is missing or does not exist.

    CASE CLOSED

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  642. Daleyrocks – the EPA did that because of the use of an icebreaker 70 miles offshore? Are they going to ban the use of all icebreakers within 70 miles of the coast of Alaska, by all carriers? Meanwhile, the DOJ will be investigating price gouging, rather than noting the disasterous effects of their actions and policies.

    JD (318f81)

  643. Is it a problem to take an oath of office and sign legislation using not your legal name? Or is it merely an embarrassment?
    Comment by elissa — 4/25/2011 @ 3:26 pm

    — Please, elissa . . . our president is no mere embarrassment.

    Icy Texan (327fb5)

  644. 632. Don’t entertain its stupidity, kish. You’ll only provoke it.
    Comment by nuke ’em all — 4/25/2011 @ 6:20 pm

    — Look, kishnevi, you have a fan!!!

    Icy Texan (327fb5)

  645. Ah yes, but Mr. Kishnevi was not impressed and put the little nukey ass-kisser in its proper place.

    elissa (069407)

  646. Off topic, but there was reallyno reason they did not call a foul on Nene. It was an

    JD (318f81)

  647. It was an obvious and unnecessary foul thawt shod have been called.

    JD (318f81)

  648. 662nd!

    Patterico (c218bd)

  649. 1 more time

    Icy Texan (327fb5)

  650. And again

    Icy Texan (327fb5)

  651. Who will be so bold as to leave the next comment?

    Icy Texan (327fb5)

  652. Not me

    EricPWJohnson (5b75a5)

  653. JD,

    No problemo mi amigo. Ustedes son muy amable por responder a mi pregunta.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  654. I really only want to throw out something that I saw in the comments tonight on Hot Air–that the embarrassing information on the birth certificate is simply that, because Obama, Sr. was to all intents and purposes absent, the race box would have been filled in with the mother’s race–meaning Obama would have been written down as white. Meaning Obama is not our first black president and the racists (TM) have won!

    Comment by kishnevi — 4/25/2011 @ 7:52 pm

    Here’s the problem with that theory, which I shared at one time: The 1961 long form — i.e., the Certificate of Live Birth (not the short form Certification) — does not list the race of the child, it only lists the parents’ races. Once again, I direct you to photographs of copies of the 1961 long form Certificates of Susan and Gretchen Nordyke, Obama’s former schoolmates born (supposedly) in the same maternity ward as he within 19 hours of his arrival. The Nordyke girls’ races are not listed, but their mother’s and father’s are (“Caucasian”), along with their birthplaces (Mrs. Nordyke nee Cole: Los Angeles, CA; Dr. Nordyke, Woodland, CA).

    If one believes Obama was born in Honolulu and that there is actually a long form on file in the Hawaii DOH, besides the autographs of the attending physician and the registrar, there are NO unknown details. Barack Sr. would be listed as “African,” Stanley Ann Dunham listed as “Caucasian.” WE ALREADY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HIS LONG FORM LOOKS LIKE. So there’s no reason to be secretive about it UNLESS he’s been untruthful for who knows how many years about his origins.

    In a long comment that I guess will be in comment purgatory forever, I said this:

    There is nothing that [c]ould be so embarrassing to him personally that wouldn’t be obscured by the fact that he is the first (half-) black POTUS as well as the youngest ever elected. That is, as long as everything on the long form is the same as what he’s been telling the world about himself since the publication of Dreams From My Father … It is my belief that what is on that long form — whatever it is — would make James “A Million Little Pieces” Frey wince, shake his head, and say “Dude.”

    L.N. Smithee (ed1a56)

  655. Democrats on Chris Christie-Take responsibility for raising property taxes.

    That is ironic coming from the same party which tax and spend communist John Corzine belongs to.

    DohBiden (15aa57)


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