Patterico's Pontifications


Three Reactors in Meltdown (Update: New Explosion)

Filed under: General — Aaron Worthing @ 10:47 am

[Guest post by Aaron Worthing; if you have tips, please send them here.]

Update: New explosion. Read about it here.

I will say bluntly that I have not been able to keep up with events after a busy weekend, but we have had at least two explosions, and we have three meltdowns in those Japanese reactors, according to New York Magazine and the Daily Mail.  And it is correct to say that this is not another Chernobyl.

But as a lay person—and perhaps I am simply uninformed—I find it disturbing that we are relying on last ditch efforts.  Hopefully they will work, but I wonder if it should have gotten this far.  Shouldn’t they have had enough redundancies in these systems that they would not be facing meltdown?  That is not a rhetorical question where I think I know the answer already.  I am actually asking.  They seemed to assume that they would never have a catastrophic disaster that destroyed much of the infrastructure designed to help in this situation.  With hindsight being 20/20, that strikes me as a questionable assumption.

There will be people who will use this occasion to attack nuclear power generally.  And it is incorrect to assume that Japan has the same geological or regulatory climate.  I mean the latter was one of the critical differences in Chernobyl—their idiot decision to cool their reactor with graphite being the kind of stupid thing that communist governments do.  But it is equally incorrect to think that every person wondering about nuclear power is just driving a pre-determined agenda.

I recognize we have to move away from oil, if only because it comes from a lot of countries chock full of people who hate us.  And since 1776 or so we have recognized that independence is essential to our freedom.  Before the invention of things like automobiles and other items that ran on petroleum products, we literally could literally survive on a daily basis with no help from the rest of the world.  Sure, we might get luxuries from other countries, but when it came down to it, we could cut off all trade and be just fine.  I firmly believe the prosperity we enjoyed as a country was because of that reality.  Nuclear power opened up the possibility of getting our electricity without having to rely on fossil fuels and that was a good thing.

But there are good, reasonable people who are disturbed by what they saw in Japan.  Some might be stampeded in one direction without any rationality.  But I do believe in the reason of the common people.  They are capable of being appealed to by reason.  So let’s address the reasonable concerns, if we can, and try to decide whether nuclear power is the correct answer for this nation as it compares to other sources of energy.

Finally, I would like to end on a positive note.  I have said many times that while all men/persons are created equal, not all cultures are created equal.  It would logically incorrect to judge the whole of Japanese culture by one incident, but this certainly speaks well of them that there has been very little looting during all of this.  They have been through a lot, but they have not lost their inner sense of civilization, and for that they deserved to be congratulated.

[Posted and authored by Aaron Worthing.]

674 Responses to “Three Reactors in Meltdown (Update: New Explosion)”

  1. Amazing how a massive nuclear accident triggers such serious questioning, yet a massive oil spill did not.

    JEA (c03c68)

  2. The sense I have is that they had several redundancies, but that the tsunami took out one of the big ones (the gas generators to run the power supply to keep the core cooling).

    That is to say: absent the tsunami, this would have been fine.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  3. is that a record?

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  4. My prayers for all of those that lost their homes and their lives in this natural disaster, a true tragedy that seems kind of lost in all of the nuclear meltdown reporting.

    JÐ (d56362)

  5. JD that is true. for the japanese the tsunami’s direct effects are probably more significant.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  6. They seemed to assume that they would never have a catastrophic disaster that destroyed much of the infrastructure designed to help in this situation. With hindsight being 20/20, that strikes me as a questionable assumption.

    Forget 20/20 hindsight. Everybody has known — even joked — about the absurdity of building nuclear reactors on/near fault lines. You simply can’t have a reliable contingency plan when facing an earthquake, because earthquakes by their very nature wreak chaos on the infrastructure. Yes, kids… earthquakes can knock out your plans AND your back-up plans.

    And everybody has known this, but — for decades — we’ve just been whistling past the graveyard. In reality, it was only a matter of time before something like this happened.

    If alien cultures were looking down over the past few decades as we entered and expanded our use of nuclear power, they would be doing major facepalm-age. I’m not knocking the use of nuclear power as a general policy — but in practice, it’s like we’re little kids wielding a chain saw.

    Kman (5576bf)

  7. the earthquake didn’t knock out the backup the tidal wave thingy did

    It was on the other thread.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  8. After a plant scrams from full power and also loses all on-site and off-site AC power (SBO), one has at least 8 hours and probably as long as 2 days to restore AC power before core damage occurs. With some luck and good operators, one may have 3 days.

    This is a known fact thoughout the nuke industry.

    Why the Japanese – with all of Southern Japan that included other nuke plants (55 in Japan!) and fed gov’t assets – could not get AC power back in time will be what many will want to learn.

    Perhaps all national assets went into saving life elsewhere. Tough choices must be made in such situations and, if such was the case, maybe they were wise. After all, the cores appear to be stable and covered/cooled now, though at great financial cost and w/o any significant fission product releases to the surrounding environment.

    jim2 (a9ab88)

  9. the earthquake didn’t knock out the backup the tidal wave thingy did

    Right. Well, I’m using earthquake in the sense of “the earthquake and all that comes with it”. The tsunami is a child of the earthquake.

    Kman (5576bf)

  10. okay I guess that’s fair

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  11. A few technical details.

    The fuel rods are what is melting. They are NOT melting through the reactor vessel. Three Mile Island had the same problem and I just read this morning that the melted rods didn’t even get through the first 1/4″ of the TMI core.

    Second, the Japanese made the decision to total the reactors in order to prevent really bad things. This was the correct decision to make. Additionally, the reactors were at their end of life and I believe the first one was due to be decommissioned later this year.

    Third, the reactors were designed almost 50 years ago. They are several generations behind what they are building today. (Another reason they were being decommissioned)

    This was a very rare event. First a magnitude 9 megathrust quake followed by a tsunami. As soon as the first tremors were felt, the reactors were scrammed. The problem was the tsunami, I’ve heard, but can’t confirm, that the fuel for the generators was contaminated by sea water.

    Now compare this with Chernobyl.

    First, no containment dome.
    Second, they had a graphite reactor, not a steel one. It caught fire.
    Third, the Russians were morons.

    The Japanese knew they were in a major quake zone and designed for it. The might not have anticipated the tsunami, and they didn’t expect a mag. 9 quake.

    All in all, they are doing very well under the circumstances. Minor amounts of radiation was released, but it’s no where near the levels of Chernobyl.

    The reactors are shut down, now they are just working to cool them down to a full cold shutdown.

    nedb (8fa39f)

  12. Japan’s was an old design. Some of the problems we’re seeing have been recognized and fixed in newer generations. I remember reading somewhere that as a fail-safe newer models don’t even need electricity to cool to core because they’re gravity fed.

    We should also note that I don’t think there is any possible system created by man which isn’t, in some extremity, liable to failure.

    Finally, Even the Worst Possible Nuclear Disasters Pale in Comparison to Fossil Fuels, The Moderate Voice

    Fritz (ac48cc)

  13. Jim2

    The problem has been, since their inception is that BWR reactors cannot take the loss of power.

    As much as engineers can plan, the orignal problem remains

    EricPWJohnson (86538c)

  14. All I know is that California is still expecting the Big One, and eve if they’ve prepared as well as Japan did – which I doubt – we’re in trouble.

    JEA (c03c68)

  15. When doing a risk analysis, one has to set limits. For example, if one builds so that a “thousand year” disaster can be survived, what happens when a “ten thousand year” disaster occurs. There are limits and at some point one has to say, beyond this point we would have to shut everything down and accept that it is gone. Since the we cannot build to survive the tidal wave, all we can do is build so that the aftermath could be handled 9as they are doing).

    Sabba Hillel (dd522e)

  16. The American School in Japan is closed until the end of the month

    EricPWJohnson (86538c)

  17. Thanks, nedb. That’s helpful.

    Kman (5576bf)

  18. I don’t have any expertise in this area but nedb makes sense.

    DRJ (fdd243)

  19. Comment by Sabba Hillel — Agree.

    I heard earlier today that more people have been killed by working with wind turbines than by nuclear reactors (sorry I don’t remember the details of the time span).

    Anti-nuclear power is the ultimate NIMBY. People think, “Nuclear reactor accident=> atomic bomb going off=> radiation widespread over a large area=> I don’t like that idea in my back yard.”

    While they are also thinking, “I don’t care how many people die mining coal or drilling for oil. I don’t care how many people live in underdeveloped areas because their isn’t the capacity for solar power or wind power. I don’t care what the cost to the environment may be to mine the materials for use in solar cells.
    -Oh, but I do mind how many birds get killed by windmills- can’t they put up big screens or something??”

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  20. The three reactors are now junk that will have to be cleaned up and removed.

    Their safety features worked as designed and prevented persistent nuclear contamination outside the plant. The cleanup of the refinery that blew up near Tokyo will be a bigger problem in the long run.

    Rodney G. Graves (f12db5)

  21. I posted these on the other thread, but they are important to keep in mind.

    First, the MSM is inaccurate about all kinds of things. Yet we presume that they are reporting accurately here? It’s the “Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect” all over again.

    As for the reactors, here is something to consider:

    And as for radiation, something else that gives perspective:

    Me, I am far more worried about people who have lost their homes, disease, and similar direct effects of the tsunami—what about the toxic wastes of modern civilization washed back into the ocean? But it’s not as cool as overstating new-cu-lar fears, to the MSM.

    Soon enough, we will know.

    Oh, and nedb? Your analysis of Chernobyl was excellent.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  22. MD, it’s not NIMBY anymore, I’m sorry to say.

    It’s BANANA: build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything.


    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  23. Eric –

    Do you think that a PWR can survive an extended SBO w/o fuel damage?

    jim2 (a9ab88)

  24. “I recognize we have to move away from oil, if only because it comes from a lot of countries chock full of people who hate us. ”

    We could always conquer the middle east (anybody who thinks what we are doing there now is real conquest needs to read more history). We could send over the crooks and twits responsible for running New Orleans, Detroit, and San Francisco and improve the government of all four places.

    We won’t. But we COULD.

    C. S. P. Schofield (71781e)

  25. Isn’t part of the problem with the backups the fact this place is 40 years old?
    Besides seems they went with the idea “better to junk it then risk exposure”?

    Zaggs (db8581)

  26. Zaggs –

    I do not think so. The Japanese, like the US regulators, require the plants to maintian their systems very well, with frequent testing and overhauls.

    Also, I think the site holds as many as 6 units, including some more recently built, and those back ups went, also.

    This event was simply something like 5 – 10 times as powerful than had been designed for. It is to their great credit that the buildings survived with so very little damage, and that the bad reactor stuff has stayed contained. As long as nothing else happens, and things look stable now, then this will become just an engineering and clean-up problem.

    jim2 (a9ab88)

  27. Is there a favorable wind blowing towards Pyongyang?

    Icy Texan (8e21a5)

  28. What gets me is the almost complete lack of actual information in the MSDM(both print & broadcast)on the actual amount or amounts of radiation released from the containment vessels, the amount of radiation received by exposed people or, even, the increase in radiation within the reactors. The MSM seems to be like the numerically deficent savage with his cry of “Many,many.” Apologies to the savage, he was doing the best he could – what is the J-Majors excuses.

    Longwalker (996c34)

  29. Zaggs –

    Consider the ~1971 plants more like 1971 Mustangs, maintained by car fanatics, rather than 1971 toasters largely ignored by homeowners.

    jim2 (a9ab88)

  30. Longwalker –

    If my sources are correct, the answer to your Qs is very little to almost nothing.

    To the MSM, that does not sell papers, does not keep viewers, and does not fit the narrative. Hence, they do not say it.

    jim2 (a9ab88)

  31. Kmart nicely embodies the “I am scare of nuke” hysteria that so many on the left exhibit. The whole kid with a chainsaw bit is pretty much a dead giveaway.

    JÐ (6e25b4)

  32. nedb

    > Third, the Russians were morons.


    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  33. It’s BANANA: build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything.
    – Comment by Simon Jester

    True, and it works just fine as long as you’re camping with the latest high-tech survival gear and avoiding thinking where it came from, including the bottled propane…

    It’s the “Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect” all over again

    I was amazed when I first read there was a name for that, now I just have to remember it. Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect, Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect, Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect, Gell-Mann Amnesis Effect, Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect

    I decided to look this up to see the origin of it and its name, wondering if there were two people “Gell” and Mann” who initially described it somewhere. I eventually came up with this quote from Michael Crichton telling how it got its name. Murray Gell-Mann is a Nobel Prize winning physicist, discovering that quarks come in flavors, among other things.

    “Media carries with it a credibility that is totally undeserved. You have all experienced this, in what I call the Murray Gell-Mann Amnesia effect. (I call it by this name because I once discussed it with Murray Gell-Mann, and by dropping a famous name I imply greater importance to myself, and to the effect, than it would otherwise have.)

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  34. MD, Patterico referenced old Murray Gell-Mann’s observation here back in 2004:

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  35. I’m having a hard time believing anything I see on Drudge or from the faux media, and as the sister of a 20-year supervisor at the Indian Point nuke plant, I know that the media cannot get these stories or specifics right but devolve into hysteria out of ignorance.

    As for looting, the Japanese are not of a thieving and looting nature, unlike too many Americans who make a culture of it.

    Peg C. (130616)

  36. I work in the nuclear industry and can discuss a few things if you guys are interested. I haven’t followed all the threads on this subject here, just a light reading.

    I know a few things, one being that it was the tsunami that tookout the backup generators to continue cooling the reactors. Earthquakes aren’t really that huge of a problem for nuclear plants…

    Anyway, here’s a decent video.

    I can provide a bunch of other useful and informative links as well.

    G (e0676f)

  37. G, here’s a question: What are the five most reliable online sources of news on this event, with technical credibility? Do you trust World Nuclear News?

    That’s 2 questions!

    gp (1330f9)

  38. Comment by Simon Jester

    Yes, I remember seeing mention of it here tears ago and that it came from Crichton, but I hadn’t known the story behind Crichton referring to it as the “Gell-Man Amnesia Affect”. I thought it was funny, clever, and honest in disclosing why he named it as he did.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  39. Peg C.-
    As for looting, the Japanese are not of a thieving and looting nature, unlike too many Americans who make a culture of it.

    They worked HARD to get rid of that sub-culture– a family friend lived in Okinawa at some point before the mid-60s (she didn’t like to talk about some specifics, but we could talk about Japan– the guy she was married to was horrible) and they had a BAD problem with theft…so they put in some draconian laws, especially for crimes that target older or weaker folks (IIRC, purse-snatching is a minimum of five years) and their jails are cement cells with one visitor hour a month.
    Short version of result: I left my Navy Fed card in a machine four miles from base, and it was at the front gate five days later; the delay was because the police hand delivered it the same day and base security was trying to guess the PIN forgot they’d received it.

    Foxfier (24dddb)

  40. Yes, I do trust world nuclear news. I’ve also been keeping up with NEI, the nuclear lobby group in DC,

    They update it pretty frequently with the latest stuff.

    Other than that, there are a few good blogs, articles and editorials, some I’ve seen already linked in the comments. I am by no means a nuclear expert or engineer, but I suppose I do poses a bit more knowledge than the layman. This still is a troubling situation, even getting past the nuclear incidents, just the devastation alone is heart breaking.

    G (e0676f)

  41. G, if I remember correctly, it was years after the TMI accident before inspectors were able to get a camera down inside the reactor vessel at TMI-2, to confirm that there was indeed a partial core meltdown. When we hear reports of partial meltdowns in Japan, how can the experts be sure of that? Have you seen anything authoritative about incore thermcouple readings, coolant and containment gas analysis that confirms actual partial meltdown? Maybe the experts are just assuming that a long-duration LOCA inevitably resulted in core damage?

    gp (1330f9)

  42. jim2,

    A modern PWR with an available heat sump can cool via natural convection, no pumps required.

    Rodney G. Graves (f12db5)

  43. Wikipedia has it covered:
    Highly detailed, lots of links.

    gp (1330f9)

  44. gp,

    Diagnosis of rod failure at this point seems to be based on analysis of gas / steam vented.

    Junk now, but well enough designed (and built, and maintained) that it failed in a very controlled manner (which has prevented widespread contamination) in a situation beyond what it was intended to withstand.

    Rodney G. Graves (f12db5)

  45. Aaron, I really think that people criticizing the design of the reactors and the current state of efforts to control these reactors are making judgments that without considering the absolutely immense size of the earthquake, the immensity of the amount of damage and demands upon the Japanese in the dealing with the earthquake in toto and the relative magnitude of the issues.

    I’m just astounded at the problems that the Japanese are dealing with.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  46. GP, with the news of the partial meltdown, I think they are determining that with the traces of other elements like cesium and iodine… Even with a “partial core” meltdown this still isn’t even close to being like Chernobyl. This plant is toast though, I can’t see them rebuilding/re-using it at all.

    Though, this is a good time to highlight newer technologies/reactors that have better cooling systems, like using gravity instead of electricity….

    G (e0676f)

  47. No need to worry about this the united states treasury might run out of money by tomorrow.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  48. I’am not saying not to care but the US treasury running out of money is troublesome.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  49. DohBiden, it might be a good idea to have your prescriptions checked. You are off the rails, today, baby!

    Icy Texan (8e21a5)

  50. I’am sorry.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  51. The press coverage has been horrible.

    I found a blog entry on Friday evening that indicated that the #1 reactor was the GE Mark I design. A quick google search informed me of the basic layout and characteristics of design.

    Yet, despite all their researchers, I didn’t see any diagrams or illustrations on the networks or cable news services until Sunday.

    Don’t get me started on the cable nets that, in looking for any kind of expert in order to fill the time, bring on anti-nuclear activists to talk about the absolute worst case as if it’s inevitable.

    Reno_Dave (56c14f)

  52. No need to apologize, DohBiden. Just get yourself checked out. Between labeling GLENN BECK’S site The Blaze as “communist” and claiming that the US Treasury might “run out of money tomorrow” you have some of us wondering what color the sky is in your world . . . that’s all. 😉

    Icy Texan (8e21a5)

  53. I apologize but i read the US treasury might runt out of money on tomorrow on hot air.

    Honestly The blaze has some of Zsa Zsa Gabor’s goons posting on there.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  54. run*

    DohBiden (984d23)

  55. Reno_Dave #49 – sadly, it *is* inevitable that the broadcast MSM will bring out the absolute worst case anti-nuclear folk …

    One of the few fortunate bits of fall-out (pun intended) from the current Japanese nuclear problems is that a whole lot more folk will eventually be much more aware that TMI is/was probably a worse nuclear incident than the current Japanese situations – and no-one died as a result of TMI …

    (The Japanese fatalities at the nuclear plants so far seem to have been run-of-the-mill plant accidents, which could have happened at almost any big plant … except that we are only hearing about ’em just now if they are at nuclear plants …

    Alasdair (e7cb73)

  56. Rodney G G –

    PWRs w/o power soon draw a bubble in the vessel due to loss of pressurizer heaters. If the bubble gets large enough in the reactor vessel, there is risk of loss of natural circ.

    PWR RCS also need makeup due to normal gland leakage, and there is no steam pump for that, as there is in a BWR.

    Natural circ through the steam generators requires feedwater make up, so they have the same limitations with the steam aux feed pumpas a BWR does with steam-driven RCIC.

    Extended SBO is expected to lead to RCP seal failure LOCAs, which mean the SGs do no good anymore. The industry replaced the original seals and went to high temperature RCP seals to reduce that risk, some by delay, but the risk of SBO-induced RCP seal failure LOCAs is very real.

    So, no. Sorry, but PWRs have equivalent or greater risks in extende SBO events.

    jim2 (fea3ad)

  57. I understand what those letters are, but I have no idea what they mean when you put them together like that…

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  58. jim2,

    Emergency cooling is not via the steam generators.

    See also Thresher and Scorpion, both of which were earlier designs without natural circulation. Neither of them have contributed radiation or contamination beyond background. Both most definitely suffered full loss of power…

    Rodney G. Graves (f12db5)

  59. Scott,

    PWR Pressurized Water Reactor
    RCS Reactor Coolant System (Primary Loop)
    SBO Site Black Out
    RCP Reactor Coolant Pump (Primary Loop)
    LOCA Loss of Coolant Accident

    Rodney G. Graves (f12db5)

  60. Mr. Frits here are some numbers from 2007… that’s total dollars – I think I saw the other day someone had a table of subsidy per MW produced

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  61. Fritz,

    Due to the costs of permitting, insurance, and regulatory overhead, there is a subsidy or loan guarantee arrangement for construction. Current generation BWR’s generate electricity at $0.07/kWhr.

    Rodney G. Graves (f12db5)

  62. Sorry! It’s just too easy for a nuke to lapse into nuke jargon.

    Repeating acronym free:

    “Extended Extended Station Black Out is expected to lead to Reator Coolant Pump seal failure Loss of Coolant Accidents, which mean the Steam Generators do no good anymore. The industry replaced the original seals and went to high temperature Reactor Coolant Pump seals to reduce that risk, some by delay, but the risk of Station Black Out – induced Reactor Coolant Pump seal failure Loss of Coolant Accidents is very real.”

    Oh, and RCS = Reactor Coolant System

    If the reactor coolant system heats up and stays up in a Pressurized Water Reactor, it can fail the seals where the Reactor Coolant Pump shafts go in, causing large leaks. This scenario is one of the higher risk ones in a Station Black Out. For that reason, many (if not all) units have replaced the original seals with ones that should last much longer. Should. The risk is still not at all small, relative to other risks, becuase there is no way to add more water.

    jim2 (fea3ad)

  63. Jonathan Alter tweeted that nuclear energy “requires the same level of subsidy as other clean energy.” Is that true?

    If so, it is a better way to spend money, since nuke reactors produce power farm more cheaply than other “renewable” sources.

    Comment by Rodney G. Graves — 3/14/2011 @ 3:03 pm

    Ah, thank you.

    See, was that so hard, Jim? :)

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  64. I note with interest the server for this site did not roll over to DST. That would cause an inspection to fail at enormous expense in a Nuclear Power Plant…

    Rodney G. Graves (f12db5)

  65. Rodney G G –

    The nuke loan guarantees come at a cost that is not at all small. The feds stand to make a hefty profit from each one, as long as the plant is built w/o the company defaulting.

    This is a far different subsidy than, say, the solar folk get, which guarantees the feds a loss since they are simply giving out the cash.

    jim2 (fea3ad)

  66. Fritz, its a stupid comment. The kind of half-assed stupidity that twitter encourages unfortunately. There are no “clean” energy sources that can create the large amount of power and the reliability of power of nuclear power plants.

    If nuclear power suffers a large reputational hit such that no new plants are built in any significant quantity, the AGW adherents can kiss any chance of reducing CO2 emissions goodbye.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  67. Scott –

    It was!

    jim2 (fea3ad)

  68. Mr. Fritz here is a pdf from the “Energy Information Administration” on page 106 of which (using the page numbers on the pages) is a table what shows what how much different energies get subsidized per megawatt hour

    nuclear……. 1.59 per megawatt hour
    solar………24.34 per megawatt hour
    wind……….23.37 per megawatt hour
    coal………. .44 per megawatt hour

    So Jonathan Alter is lying or stupid. He’s a journalist.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  69. Rodney G G –

    Natural circulation takes heat from the core and transfers it to the feedwater in the steam generators. That water in the steam generators boils and, w/o AC power, has to be exhausted via relief valves, requiring make up to replace inventory.

    Just where do you say those thermal decay heat megawatts being removed from the core are going?

    Even the steam aux feed pump is exhausting its steam to atmosphere.

    The sub stuff does not scale to commercial nukes.

    jim2 (fea3ad)

  70. 1) Reaching the debt ceiling is NOT the same thing as the Treasury ‘running out of money’.
    2) HuffPo goons might be commenting at The Blaze, but posting? Doubtful.

    Icy Texan (8e21a5)

  71. jim2,

    Well, for the reactors I used to work on (back in the day) we had an essentially infinite heat sump close at hand, and a natural circulation heat exchanger for just such problems. Most commercial set ups lack both.

    As per my comment @ 56, containment held after un-controlled shutdown and loss of all secondary and tertiary systems in at least two cases.

    Rodney G. Graves (f12db5)

  72. jim2,

    I don’t believe they’ve built any commercial PWR plants in over 20 years now…

    Rodney G. Graves (f12db5)

  73. If one ever has a top secret clearance one quickly learns why you can NEVER believe the government. Without a clearance and a need to know you will never get the truth, EVER. I have talked to DOE engineers about Chernobyl and it is far worse than any of the official reports. And it will be that way long after all you grandchildren have expired.

    Until somebody convinces me otherwise, I will go with oil, coal and natural gas. There is a reason Obama supports Nuclear and its no coincidence that GE build Nuclear plants.

    My understanding is that we did not know 40 years ago what we know today about fault lines and that the plant 20 miles from New York City lies on a fault.

    It is also my understanding that the USSR military was experimenting at the Chernobyl plant. Now do you know if the same ever happened here? Not without a need to know you don’t.

    Wayne (945417)

  74. Wayne,

    2.5 million government employees, and they’re all in on it!

    Fritz (ac48cc)

  75. Wayne,

    What’s the total death toll for Chernobyl (including knock on effects)?

    Rodney G. Graves (f12db5)

  76. Wayne,

    One more thing, the Russians/Soviets could fuck up a wet dream. The scope and scale of their industrial f*ckups was monumental. After this is all said and done in Japan the Soviets will still have the top five nuclear incidents all to themselves.

    Rodney G. Graves (f12db5)

  77. Rodney,


    Fritz (ac48cc)

  78. Wayne,

    Oil, coal and natural gas all have their downsides and dump their waste strait into the air. Only nuclear actually accounts for its “waste” which of course is still usable. I bet Obama likes nuclear because Energy Secretary Chu is awesome.

    With your comment on fault lines, you do realize that nuclear plants in the U.S. are constantly improving replacing systems. I don’t know why you think an earthquake would somehow stop the cooling from happening. Our reactors, specifically after 9/11 have sufficient backup power to be capable of cooling the reactor core.
    With regards to the sort of experimenting the military or government has done here, I’m sure there are plenty of records already released that would scare the pants off you, despite you actually not comprehending them.

    G (ce0c1b)

  79. *straight…. d’oh

    G (ce0c1b)

  80. Fritz,

    You’re off by 984,855.

    Rodney G. Graves (f12db5)

  81. Some Huffpo execs were hired to work on the Blaze as Beck went for the best he could find at certain positions, but no way is he going to let the Blaze turn Left, so I’m waiting to see what happens next.

    I’m with you SPQR. The story is how well things held up in Japan in spite of a 9.0 quake and huge tsunami, and the loss of life and devastation I guess more from the tsunami than the quake.

    But none of that is America-centric and pro activist.

    I bet Obama likes nuclear because Energy Secretary Chu is awesome
    Shhh, don’t tell Michelle-
    besides Obama likes nuclear almost as much as he likes oil, I think- You can find some quotes that make it sound like he does, but actions speak louder than words.

    More people and birds are killed by windmills than nuclear reactors, even though the relative amount of energy produced is so small.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  82. Yeah, well, I’m glad the nuclear industry is pretty much the safest industry in the U.S. Windpower, not so much…

    And yeah, Obama is a bit wishy washy on nuclear but he has really had strong actions as well. He’s also done the opposite with the other hand. NRC commissioner Jaczko is a joke. Same with this refusal to review the Yucca Mountain application. But I guess you gotta pay the political price for “winning” Nevada.

    G (ce0c1b)

  83. Fritz,

    I self correct: You’re off by 984,970.

    Non-fatal cancers (mainly thyroid) have so far resulted in 0 deaths, and fewer than 150 suffered from Acute Radiation Syndrome (all were plant workers or firefighters).

    Rodney G. Graves (f12db5)

  84. I can’t believe people actually think that many people died at Chernobyl. Not saying it wasn’t a horrible accident… just can’t stand how people actually think nearly 1 million people died…

    G (ce0c1b)

  85. Greenpeace has a whole page dedicated to glorifying Chernobyl’s death-dealing prowess


    happyfeet (ab5779)

  86. Rodney,

    You sound so sure of yourself.

    Fritz (ac48cc)

  87. I can’t believe people actually think that many people died at Chernobyl. Not saying it wasn’t a horrible accident… just can’t stand how people actually think nearly 1 million people died…

    No, we’re talking about excess mortality over time.

    Fritz (ac48cc)

  88. “excess mortality” is how the Lancet figured out that we had killed 119 billion people in Iraq (and counting)

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  89. What about excess ignorance? Oh and here, enjoy the read.

    G (ce0c1b)

  90. happyfeet,

    So excess morality as a research tool was misused in a particular case and now we’re not going to do epidemiology any more? Was John Snow just another dirty liberal chiseling for more public spending and in on the conspiracy?

    Fritz (ac48cc)

  91. Rodney G G –

    The navy nukes, especially the SS, had very low decay heat and lots of surface area per watt. Even the CVNs have a lot smaller decay heat footprint than commercial nukes. There is indeed natural circulation in PWRs, but the heat has to be dumped into the steam generators. A big enough vessel bubble, and its gone.

    With the loan guarantees the way Obama pretends to support, the chance of new nukes had aleady dropped off before the Japan events. The only utilities that were still serious were ones ready to go w/o those gurantees unless they got better.

    jim2 (fea3ad)

  92. these are good questions but the trust… the trust is gone

    The Lancet compromised Greenpeace’s credibilitah and the credibilitah of every other dirty socialist group what wants to base their propaganda on this particular “research tool.”

    It’s a fool me twice shame on me thing.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  93. Well, in regards to the loan guarantees, they basically are sufficient for the time being. The office itself wouldn’t be able to spend all that money anyway. Then we have to talk about the costs for the application and the requirements to be able to participate in the loan guarantee program… Anyway, the expansion at Vogtle is great. I’m sure the enrichment facility will get built and TVA will continue forward with their plans. I mean, I know of a few other utilities, but they aren’t exactly at that stage yet. Though I haven’t read anything about the VC Summer plant recently…

    G (ce0c1b)

  94. Fritz –

    The excess mortality extrapolation is a joke. All serious science that I have encountered agrees that the linear no-threshold hypothesis is conservative. The only Q is how conservative.

    A little empirical data shows it is laughably conservative. Otherwise, higher altitude populations would track with cancer deaths by altitude, and they do not. Populations in granite regions would show marked historical patterns of cancer incidence, and they do not. Air line pilots and attendants would cancer track with flight miles, and they do not. Populations would track cancer deaths with background radiation levels, and they do not.

    The excess mortality approach is a joke for this. We evolved as a species in the presence of background radiation. If anything, we were shaped by it such that we would probably be less healthy statistically in its absence.

    jim2 (fea3ad)

  95. Alasdair wrote: “TMI is/was probably a worse nuclear incident than the current Japanese situations” How does he come to that conclusion?

    TMI: 1 core damaged; primary cooling was available, just leaked from PORV or mismanaged; hydrogen pressure spike contained; event is over and done.

    Japan: 3 cores damaged; primary cooling unavailable due to swamping of backup gens; hydrogen explosions blow the roofs off two buildings; event is ongoing.

    Iain Murray made the same claim today, and I think he’s wrong. This is worse than TMI. Nowhere near as bad as Chernobyl, but worse than TMI.

    I’m not talking health effects, negligible for TMI, but yet unknown for Japan.

    I know people want to fight back against the lies of the no-nukers, but let’s not misstate the case: this is a serious, expensive accident, worse than TMI.

    gp (1330f9)

  96. hydrogen explosions blow the roofs off two buildings

    Mr. Drudge says we’re up to three (3) hydrogen splosions now, one for each reactor, which is probably a record

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  97. if’s only March but if you’re Japanese you already have a whole page already for the Christmas letter I bet if not you’re doing it wrong

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  98. oh. that should say *it’s* only March

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  99. here is from that last article I linked

    Around the world, Germany and Switzerland reacted by suspending plans for new reactors. Italy and Poland said they would rethink plans to invest in nuclear energy, and Friends of the Earth urged the British government to scrap its own plans for new reactors.

    Andy Atkins, the campaign group’s executive director, said: “We can’t keep heading down the nuclear route until the lessons from this crisis have been learnt.”

    Cowards. You expect this sort of thing from America but Poland?

    That’s a very very bad sign for the west.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  100. I would say this is way worse than TMI. Maybe not in terms of radiation released, but in overall economic impact. I doubt this plant operates again. I just hope that everybody is okay.

    G (ce0c1b)

  101. Ever since most of the previous government went down in that plane in the Ukraine, last year, they have a weaker hand. The solution is to develop reactors with more current technology, not scuttle
    what they already have.

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  102. Sadly a big thing nuclear has against it is fear. The countries in Europe I can understand, them being closer to the Chernobyl site it stirs the public a whole lot more. Though I’d say after the public learns and understands about newer reactor designs, most of the fears will die down. In Italy though, I really don’t know, this may have stopped the referendum for a while.
    It is a good thing for the industry to learn from anything that could possibly happen to prevent it from ever happening again. It’ll be especially interesting to see how this effects SMRs (Small Modular Reactors) which are all abuzz here in DC. I know France is creating an underwater nuclear plant, and russia has the floating nuclear plants…

    G (ce0c1b)

  103. #98 from happyfeet is remarkable. We should all be very afraid.

    JD (ba531c)

  104. jim2, there is data that suggests that a low level of radiation actually has a slight beneficial effect.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  105. without random mutations we’d all look like the Osmond family

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  106. Sadly, a hydrogen “event” was always likely once steam from the reactor coolant was being released in a building in the absence of AC for fans and handling equipment. I read somewhere that the Unit 2 operators were considering removing exterior panels or something to reduce the effects when it happened to the last unit. Hopefully, that did happen.

    jim2 (fea3ad)

  107. SPQR –

    And I agree with it, but I did not want to possibly over-reach. That is, the data is both copious and absolutely solid for what I said.

    jim2 (fea3ad)

  108. jim2, certainly the actual statistical significance of the data I’ve seen is debateable.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  109. SPQR –

    The empirical data that I cited is solid for what I asserted in my earlier post.

    I think the presence of cell damage repair mechanisms is implicit in the absence of cancer tracking with background radiation. Thus, the absence of such a stimulus could eventually let our species lose that mechanism, much like Dodo lost flight and some sea cave dwellers lost eyes. Then, should another insult arise in our environment, perhaps chemical, we might suffer greatly from its effects in the absence of such a repair mechanism.

    jim2 (fea3ad)

  110. Don’t know if anyone has mentioned this, but,
    Chernobyl had NO containment structure!

    AD-RtR/OS! (0bc8d7)

  111. Don’t know if anyone has mentioned this, but,
    Chernobyl had NO containment structure!

    According to Jim, Rodney, and happyfeet, it didn’t matter because there were no deaths. Containment structures are a waste of money, amiright?

    Fritz (ac48cc)

  112. nobody said there were no deaths there were no deaths of anyone we liked

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  113. Why is fritz slaughtering strawpeople?

    JD (ba531c)

  114. that’s a good question is this a prelude to an excess mortality analysis for Japan cause Japan is all set to go on that sort of thing

    it looks like they keep doing the same report over and over except they don’t put the actual reports online, which is really lame cause I bet our tax monies are paying for this

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  115. JD, he would outlaw bananas, too. See this link:

    Simon Jester (112e11)

  116. oh crap and this was smoothie week at casa happyfeet I started with a couple dozen nanners and various fruits I found at my ghetto supermercado and I still have a mango a pomelo and 3 nanners left it’s just I ran out of yogurt

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  117. Forget bananas, cohort studies are where the real magic is.

    Fritz (ac48cc)

  118. I recognize we have to move away from oil, if only because it comes from a lot of countries chock full of people who hate us.

    Most of it comes from Canada and Mexico.

    Shouldn’t they have had enough redundancies in these systems that they would not be facing meltdown?

    I have heard of reactors that would automatically shut down if there was a power failure.

    It would logically incorrect to judge the whole of Japanese culture by one incident, but this certainly speaks well of them that there has been very little looting during all of this.

    Indeed, all the more so since it was just two generations since the Rape of Nanking and Unit 731.

    Michael Ejercito (64388b)

  119. Via Hot Air, things seem to have taken a bad turn.

    DRJ (fdd243)

  120. He would bananas too?

    Fuck Obama.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  121. He would bananas too?

    Fuck Obama.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  122. National Soros Radio is reporting that they expect America’s president, one “Barack Obama,” to be too cowardly to push forward on his nuclear energy plans.

    The nuclear power industry had been experiencing something of a rebirth in the United States, following decades of doubt. That’s been put at risk by the crisis unfolding at a nuclear power plant in Japan in the wake of a devastating quake and tsunami there.

    Yes we can’t by God we’re Americans

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  123. Sorry for the double post and sorry for cursing Obama makes me so mad.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  124. we can’t drill oil it’s too scary we don’t know how we can’t make nuclear energies it’s too scary we’ll just screw it up

    Let the brave Chinese drill the oils. Let the brave Chinese make the nuclear energies.

    America can just sit here, quivering as the debt piles higher and higher.

    Hey everybody wanna take a ride in my new volt?

    It’s so snazzy and it goes like 20 miles on one charge! It would be even cooler if we had electricities like they do in Chiner.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  125. NRDC and Soros’s own CAP, ah they’ve never steered us wrong, this is an example of epistemic closure.

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  126. On another tangent, the blogger Aaron (I think it was Aaron) found the other day Has posted again.

    kishnevi (0e4d8b)

  127. The fact is Tokyo Power company has lied to the public on 2 different occasions, the first time their boss resigned his position, then a few years later they lied again. Now, backup generators have died and of course they said that would be unlikely to ever happen, so they lied a third time. This can all be Googled. They built a Nuclear Power Plant near a fault line that has regular earthquakes, the plant is located next to the ocean, Japan has Typhoons every year, the question is this company worried about peoples health or Profit? I’ll let you decide. I really did not care at the time they built these things, but I live in Japan, now I wonder if all Japanese people will glow in the dark soon, including myself. Last year, about this time, they had a 6.5 quake in about the same location. Every time they (Company’s or Organizations such as the Police) make a mistake in Japan, they come on TV and bow to the public and say “I’m sorry, we have no excuse” like that gets them off the hook for their faults. If they kill people now and in the future because of the radiation will that bring anyone back from the grave? Then again for what they did at 3 mile Island I do not think they even bothered with oops my bad, I’m sorry. In that case they just sold and bought company’s, like everyone forgot it, it’s OK, heck I read in 2015 they want to try again at 3 mile Island. In the school I was brought up in, it’s called money talks, sh@t walks, of course where does that leave us, the general population? The older I get, the less I trust any government or company bigger than a mom and pop store. This is all just my rant. Now, I’ll go watch TV with the thousands of bodies washing up on shore here.

    Brian Jones (6c33a8)

  128. Most of it comes from Canada and Mexico.

    Actually, I think they just give the largest individual percentages. As a region, I think the Middle East provides a majority…

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  129. This can all be Googled.

    sure it can if you have electricities like the brave Chinese

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  130. Will obama be clear on something?

    DohBiden (984d23)

  131. gp #94 – “probably” …

    Doesn’t prevent events getting out of hand in the next days and possibly weeks … but Chernobyl, it ain’t …

    If Chernobyl had had a containment structure built with materials that weren’t substandard, and if the core hadn’t been largely graphite which can become radio-active and also burn, then it would not have been Chernobyl that could and did become the archetype for a badly-built and dangerous power plant …

    What most anti-nukes don’t seem to realise is that, when it comes to releasing potentially harmful radiation into the atmosphere, TMI isn’t/wasn’t alone … lots of power plants have been doing it for decades …

    Of course, those are the coal-fired plants … in each ton of coal that they burn, there are various sorta-trace quantities of radioactive elements, including but not limited to Radio-Carbon … and, given that they cumulatively burn *millions* of tons of coal, that adds up to a bunch of released radiation …

    Add to that the Radon and other stuff released during coal mining – and nuclear looks better and better …

    Alasdair (205079)

  132. ==we can’t drill oil it’s too scary we don’t know how we can’t make nuclear energies it’s too scary==

    Our future: Cooking beans and heating the hogan with a central fire pit. Three acres and a mule. (While the Chinese take over the planet, explore space and populate Mars.)

    elissa (0399e6)

  133. With #128 said – this may yet all go pear-shaped … or it may not …

    We can *still* be sure that, scientifically, “The China Syndrome” is the scientific-accuracy equivalent of the Oscar-quality “Ishtar” …

    Alasdair (205079)

  134. kishnevi,

    Good link. This MIT nuclear science blog discussing the Japanese reactors also seems good.

    DRJ (fdd243)

  135. Also, I read the Japanese government has asked the US for help with the reactors. I assume that would be GE nuclear engineers since these are reportedly GE reactors, but it could also be military, academic and other corporate assistance.

    DRJ (fdd243)

  136. Was #124 real?

    JD (ba531c)

  137. I’m a cold-hearted bastard to suggest this, but the trader who correctly picks the bottom on EWJ could make a quick buck. People are so scared of nuclear stuff, the Japanese ETFs are going to overshoot way to the downside. I’d definitely buy EWJ if it got all the way down to the Mar 2009 panic low of 7.

    gp (1330f9)

  138. The problem at the reactors is cooling. Maybe GE made the reactors, I do not know this. But, the backup cooling pumps have stopped working because of the Tsunami. And, Gee Wiz, they forgot to monitor the fuel in the pumps and it ran of gas. Can you believe this. Pumps are made by Toshiba. the water level in the reactor then dropped and Guess what, Pop goes the wizzle. Do you really think this problem is over? They say there is very little poison in the air as of now, wish I could truly believe that. 4 or 5 times the radiation levels of a common banana is all they say went into the air. The last reactor building to blow up went twice the distance in the sky as the previous one and now I’m hearing that it was quite possibly due to it being uranium and plutonium in the reactor, that would make it more dangerous than the first one, only two sources on that one, so not sure.
    Update: they are GE dsigned, got one source saying Fukushima No.1 was going to be retired in another few months, another expert source saying that there is a 90 per cent chance of a failure, well gee whiz. Over two thirds of the USA is of a different design and probably Westinghouse. So relaxed after reading the below article, hope there is somebody left around to bury me.

    Brian Jones (6c33a8)

  139. Seriously, though, the Japanese will do what they have always done. They will persevere through hardship as a island nation does.

    They will rebuild and I would be glad to help if I could, but I think they have the knowledge and strength to manage without my feeble help.

    Regardless, the people of Japan are our friends and allies and we should do what we can. I’m sure donations to the Red Cross would be appreciated.

    Ag80 (efea1d)

  140. I’am afraid it is JD.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  141. Brian Jones at 124 – And how many of those thousands of people killed will have been killed by a nuclear disaster.


    Have Blue (854a6e)

  142. Comment by Scott Jacobs — 3/14/2011 @ 8:20 pm

    The ’09 figures show Canada supplying the U.S. with 300K/bbl’s a day more than the Persian Gulf area (1.9MM v. 1.6MM/bbls per day)

    AD-RtR/OS! (0bc8d7)

  143. Article is on Melt down at Fukushima.

    Only 2 Nuclear disasters where people died in Japan, but not related to melt down in Fukushima. I am really not attacking Nuclear Power in General, it’s the safety I doubt.

    Lessons are being learned from this, next to the ocean (Where Tsunamis are a possibility) and on fault lines you do not build Nuclear Power Plants.

    Very snide guy.

    Brian Jones (6c33a8)

  144. 124, 135, Do you live in a mental institution? I am sorry you are overly concerning yourself. You just seem to assume way too much false information. For instance, I think there are nearly 30 mark 1 reactors in the US. The generators ran out of fuel, the backup batteries ran out of power after 8 hours, and there are still several safety preventative measures in place.

    Oh and nuclear “experts” lol, I think that article had one with any credibility. More like anti-nuclear advocates… real trustworthy…

    G (ce0c1b)

  145. There has been no breach in the containment structure, so the quake standards are good.
    The problem was the cut-off of electricity due to the tsunami – so they just need further redundancy in the systems (but, that’s what they said after the “crash” landing of that DC-10/MD-11 in the corn-field in Iowa when an exploding turbine wheel in the fuselage mounted engine took out ALL of the hydraulic circuits: Well, we just needed a bit more redundancy!).

    AD-RtR/OS! (0bc8d7)

  146. Yeah, call the fire dept.

    Brian Jones (6c33a8)

  147. 139. You don’t really have a point. While Canada and Mexico supply us with a ton of oil, 23% of that is still more then some nations. The problem is limited production/supply. The point is that the middle east supplies most of the world’s oil supply, and it is all related, and a global market.

    G (ce0c1b)

  148. Well if you are fine with nuclear power in general that is fine. All the reactors in the US, and virtually every place are earthquake proof.

    G (ce0c1b)

  149. JD

    I dont know if Brians comments were correct but googling Nuclear Power Today – I found some links that reactor #1 had been shut down perhaps three times since 2002 for 8000 times tritium leaks and faulty electrical equipment and that Reactor #3 has had TMI level accidents but were contained where the reactor floor was flooded with radioactive water and was shut down for an extended period of time and then could not be restarted due to further mechanical difficulties.

    Given the design of soo many reactors so close together – apparently this cost saving benefit – has met the maximum loss scenario

    My daughter at ASD Doha just texted me that the Japanese Health minister is close to declaring a country wide nuclear emergency as the plant is being evacuated and only volunteers 50 are trying to put out fires at the rest of the reactors

    They apparently are losing the plants

    EricPWJohnson (86538c)

  150. God save those 50, may their children and families be forever proud

    EricPWJohnson (86538c)

  151. Al Jazeera just confirmed that 50 refused evacuation and will stay to the end

    EricPWJohnson (86538c)

  152. Aaron, step back a little bit and gain even more perspective. Even if this IS a Chernobyl it still amounts to nothing.

    How many lives were shortened by any appreciable amount by Chernobyl. The answer is darned few, fewer than the number of known deaths from the Sendai quakes and tsunamis. And it required the fifth largest recorded earthquake this world has ever experienced, a site on the water which could have been better planned for being flooded out, and a second generation reactor.

    Fukushima is a second generation “positive void” reactor that basically shuts down if it melts down. There is no carbon moderator to burn and spread radiation. It has a real containment building which may have a small leak in it as compared to Chernobyl’s pop-top building with no containment. In this regard your coverage is perfectly correct, Fukushima will not be and can not be another Chernobyl incident with what we know today. It’s premature to rush into legislation on “well, it MIGHT become worse than Chernobyl!” For the owners it is a financial disaster of the first magnitude. For the general population it is a most serious power outage disaster. Aside from the health effects from loss of power, there have been no events, yet, that would shorten the lives of more than a dozen people. Elevating the importance of these people’s live shortening due to radiation above the likely 10s of thousands of dead from the one two punch, earthquake and tsunami, reveals extremely sick minds on the part of MSM such as BBC and others.

    Newer reactors also have a passive cooling system that needs no external power to keep the core cool.

    Now that we have experience with what a tsunami can do sites such as San Onofre can be re-engineered to better protect critical facilities from being flooded out. San Onofre, in particular, has an advantage in that the nearby (200km or less) faults are that might let go in a large way are to the East of the plant on the land. This limits the tsunami that the plant is likely to experience to something considerably smaller than what Fukushima experienced.

    Treat Fukushima as a learning experience and let’s all move on. If anything this pretty much proves existing designs are adequate enough until we have an event that extinguishes hundreds of thousands of lives and “oh yes” releases some modest amount of radiation.


    JD (98e9d7)

  153. I mean the latter was one of the critical differences in Chernobyl—their idiot decision to cool their reactor with graphite being the kind of stupid thing that communist governments do.

    They didn’t cool it with graphite! That would never have worked in the first place. They used graphite as the moderator. That’s not a bad idea as far as efficient running is concerned; but it’s a very bad idea if the reactor should ever overheat! Their coolant was water, which was fine until an idiot turned it off for a test, forgot to turn it back on, and went home without telling anyone that it was off.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  154. G…
    Scott, in his post at 8:20, surmised that the ME sold us more oil than Canada.
    I posted that, in fact, Canada supplied us with more oil than the “Persian Gulf” countries (which is what would be considered “the Middle East” for oil production figures.
    And, Yes!, I do know that oil is a world-wide commodity, and highly fungible.
    And, Yes!, the Sauds supply the world with a lot of oil, and most of it goes to Europe. And the #2 exporting nation is Russia, which also supplies mostly Europe. Which is why we buy a lot of oil from Canada and Mexico (don’t need tankers when pipelines do quite nicely), and from Venezuela and West Africa (shorter boat trips).

    AD-RtR/OS! (0bc8d7)

  155. Radiation levels a +3 in Toyko and +10 at the largest city just north of Toyko

    Container floor reactor 1 has been breached

    EricPWJohnson (86538c)

  156. They said that at Fukushima a long time ago. But, those big clouds of smoke coming from their safe reactors looks really safe. Look the earthquake and tsunami are over now and it is history now. Most of the people here in Japan are worried mostly about those reactors, while watching the news and the death toll rise, of course Tokyo people are wondering when if ever their power will be restored and the trains running. Now officials over here are saying that radiation levels are enough now to affect human health, I guess will just have to watch the news for further developments.

    Brian Jones (6c33a8)

  157. BTW, the quake was upgraded to a 9.0 –
    the fourth strongest in recorded history.

    AD-RtR/OS! (0bc8d7)

  158. The Twin Towers were airplane proof, and in Kobe they said our buildings are earthquake proof and then they had a real earthquake. Pal there is nothing 100 per cent proof against anything. Bullet proof vest are not entirely bullet proof.

    Brian Jones (6c33a8)

  159. One book that everyone should read, if they can find it, is The Health Hazards of Not Going Nuclear, by the late Petr Beckman.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  160. Reactors automatically shut down in an earthquake event. It is just the way they are designed. Would you like me to find some videos of how they operate?

    G (ce0c1b)

  161. More people will die due to not having the electicity that these plants provide than will die from the affects of the nuclear disaster.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  162. The main difference between this event and Chernobyl is that at Chernobyl 100% of the deaths were directly related to a nuclear incident.

    In this event less than 1% of the total deaths will bel the result of a nuclear incident.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  163. I wonder how many people, when they picture the worst-possible-case scenario in a nuclear power plant, call to mind the image of Hiroshima rather than Chernobyl. For that matter, how many people imagine that Chernobyl was something like Hiroshima? The fact is that a nuclear explosion at a nuclear power plant is impossible. Not just very unlikely, but physically impossible. A nuclear reactor has as much to do with a nuclear bomb as a cellular phone has with a cellular automaton (aka the Game of Life).

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  164. Maebashi 100 kilometers north of Tokyo is now reporting +11 thats 11 times the normal radiation level or a day at the beach per hour

    I wonder why we have any strategic lift planes sitting on the ground we – should be calling up all contingency plans to send a massive effort aide to Japan – its a 2 1/2 day round trip by plane

    We need to flood the skies with cargo lift planes to reassure the Japanese that we are there for them

    EricPWJohnson (86538c)

  165. Yes, we need to help the Japanese as much as we can!

    G (ce0c1b)

  166. _____________________________________

    only volunteers 50 are trying to put out fires at the rest of the reactors

    This moment in time has taken on a surrealistic, nightmarish quality. For one thing, I have heard murmurs — predictions from those with the so-called ability of prophecy (which I used to be a big skeptic about) — about a huge quake hitting Japan around 2010-2011, and also talk of a corresponding tsunami several months ago.

    Making this even more bizarre is that there also have been similar murmurs over the past 12 or more months about such a disaster to then be followed by a large quake striking California—-I hope my original cynicism and skepticism about the idea of precognitive abilities is justified there.

    Throw in all the problems roiling the Middle East, disasters in New Zealand, economic factors in general, the guy in the White House, the loudmouths (ie, Democrats/unionists) in places like Wisconsin, headless bodies in Mexico and Arizona, Euro-economic debacles (ie, Greece/Spain/Ireland, etc), and reality is taking on the quality of an ongoing large, noticeably unpleasant “perfect storm.”

    Mark (411533)

  167. All serious science that I have encountered agrees that the linear no-threshold hypothesis is conservative. The only Q is how conservative.

    It is not conservative, it is absurd.

    (And conservatism is anything but absurd. So why not call it liberal instead? :-))

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  168. When you work a temporary contract at a nuke plant you have to pass a whole body rad scan in order to be released. They stick you in a full body scanner that can sense any contamination that may be present internally. If you show as having any internal contamination they you get to sit in time out, getting paid, for a week while doing no work until you get scanned again.
    People have been known to game the system by eating a sh*tload of bananas before the scan. However the folks doing the scans are not stupid and guys with a gut full of K-40 (Potassium 40) don’t tend to get rehired.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  169. I should really know better than this, but Mr. Johnson writes:

    “…Maebashi 100 kilometers north of Tokyo is now reporting +11 thats 11 times the normal radiation level or a day at the beach per hour…”

    So do you mean 11 x the normal background dose? I mean, you aren’t giving any units, like uSieverts per hour? Total absorbed dose? Where does that “11X” value come from?

    There is a LOT of illogical thinking regarding relative risks involving radiation, after all.

    Here is a nice place to start:

    I mean, 11X normal sounds bad, doesn’t it? But here is an exercise. What is the dosage you get in a jet aircraft? Or living in Denver?

    Don’t get me wrong: releases of radiation can be a bad thing. But half-lives are involved, types of radioactive elements, etc (iodine can be bad because your thyroid concentrates it).

    Fact is, getting data from the MSM is really, really a bad idea. We’ll see what happens with time.

    Simon Jester (112e11)

  170. Simon,

    I’m only passing on what I’m seeing on the TV without comment

    If you feel the need to attack me personally for reporting what I see, then by all means proceed

    The Day at the beach comment was from some boob – oh that was the director of Health for the Japanese Government

    Feel free to ask him about his qualifications

    EricPWJohnson (86538c)

  171. Yes, and all of that “contamination” that the crew of the USS Ronald Reagan were subjected to was dealt with by a shower, and was equal to a day clambering over a granite mountain.
    Oh, the horrors!

    AD-RtR/OS! (0bc8d7)

  172. See, this is what I meant. You are hopeless.

    Try getting some figures. But it’s easier to feel insulted. And do calculate your own dose, given the jet travel you claim. Then compare it to the numbers in Tokyo.

    Maybe you are correct.

    Simon Jester (112e11)

  173. Simon,

    I’m not insulted, you have a well documented history here attacking me falsely making claims that I dont live where I am, do what I do and so on, Given that you seem to think that ow you are more of an expert on the situation in Japan than the Japanese health officials

    If only the world would stop and listen to the blogesphere, just take showers, take more iodine, think happy thoughts, by more Okeefe has the cure bumper stickers, the world will be a better place overnight, but alas, they still havent come around

    EricPWJohnson (86538c)

  174. Still have no numbers, huh? Hmmm.

    Simon Jester (112e11)

  175. Simon,

    A Jazeera reported these numbers, please refer your inquiries to them or the Japanese Health ministry

    EricPWJohnson (86538c)

  176. So Jonathan Alter is lying or stupid. He’s a journalist

    So… Both, then?

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)

  177. Comment by Brian Jones

    were there any facts in that bloviation, or were you just writing because you like pushing the buttony things on a keyboard?

    The Twin Towers were airplane proof,

    Ah, yeah, really? Citation, please? The Empire State Building, probably (it was actually struck by a B17, as I recall, during WWII). Modern buildings with a fraction of the structural mass? Perhaps not. Though I do recall being told by an architect I know that, if they built the WTC using techniques NOW instead of the techniques they had THEN, then the plane’s wings (where most of he fuel was) would have been sheered off outside the building and the fire would have been far less serious, as all that fuel-air that set the place ablaze would have created a giant fireball at the outside point of impact rather than inside.

    Pal there is nothing 100 per cent proof against anything. Bullet proof vest are not entirely bullet proof.

    I could be mistaken, but from your bloviations my own suspicion is that your head will likely block everything less than a bursting shell.

    Now, I’ll go watch TV with the thousands of bodies washing up on shore here.

    … no doubt blaming it all on AGW.

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)

  178. For one thing, I have heard murmurs — predictions from those with the so-called ability of prophecy (which I used to be a big skeptic about) — about a huge quake hitting Japan around 2010-2011, and also talk of a corresponding tsunami several months ago.

    Lack of critical thinking skills rears its ugly head once more.

    “I firmly predict that IDIOTS will post some really, really stupid things in the near future on Patterico!!!”

    Now, let’s see how long it takes for that to become true.

    Texas sharpshooting is not a sharpshooting skill. It’s a bloviating technique.

    Predicting a vague earthquake in Japan is pretty much like saying “I believe the sun will rise in the east for the next 30 days”.

    Come back in 30 days, after my prediction has come true, and you may benefit from many other predictions I will make at the time.

    IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8)

  179. Either BJ was having a troll party or needs different meds.

    If TEPCO is to be believed, the reactors are stable and being cooled.

    As one blogger noted, if there had been a couple thousand megawatts of solar panels, there would be a lot of toxic metals and compounds scattered all over that area of Japan in watersheds, reservoirs, etc. If there had been a couple thousand megawatts of dams, they would have failed and inundated even more of the nation. If there had been a couple thousand MW of oil plants, the refinery fires we all saw would have been small in comparison and there would be millions of gallons of fuel oil soaking the land and poisoning folk, the same for natural gas.

    Here, if TEPCO is telling truth, the nuke fuel has failed but remains in the reactor vessels and the vast bulk of the other rad stuff remains in the primary containments. If so, it is not in the environment and has become an engineering clean-up matter, just as TMI became. Just as TMI was cleaned up and retired w/o population consequences, the TEPCO units should proceed similarly, if done competently.

    BTW, those hydrogen explosions were not in the reactor nor were they in the steel containment structure in which the reactor sits. Instead, they were in or near the secondary containment building which is a steel-reinforced concrete building around the primary containment structure.

    The below url seems reasonable, and note the first drawing:

    jim2 (a9ab88)

  180. EPWJ:you have a well documented history here attacking me for making false claims

    — There. FTFY!!!

    Icy Texan (2f015c)

  181. Who let all the black helicopter types in?

    Rodney G. Graves (f12db5)

  182. EricPW left the backdoor flap of his pajamas open.

    Icy Texan (2f015c)

  183. The account of this, was incomplete, by the troll,
    ‘shocking I know';

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  184. Okay, reading the reports, it appears that the spent fuel pool water level in one of the shut down units dropped below the level of the stored spent fuel rods. Normally, there water level is maintained 20 – 30 feet above the top of the fuel rods, which are ~12 – 14 feet tall in the racks.

    Loss of power means loss of cooling flow, makeup pumps, and later failure of monitoring instruments. Unless there was an error of failure that casued draining, any water level drop such as this would take days or more. The design also makes it hard to inadvertently drain the pool below the fuel level.

    Once the fuel is no longer covered by water, though, it will heat up. However, overall this is not a fast process. How this happened there, I do not know. Normally, meters and alarms would warn the operators, and personnel would be in that area constantly. Any level drop would be obvious, especially as the temperature in the area would rise a lot as local boiling took place. It would also make noise and lots of humidity, etc.

    Eventually, one would get hydrogen releases, high local rad readings, etc. Once the situation was detected (or revealed by a hydrogen event or rad release), simply restoring the water level would fix most of the problems, including stopping local high rad readings, and most releases.

    The pool level appears to have been restored now. It will, however, add to the later clean-up challenges.

    jim2 (a9ab88)

  185. Now, I’ll go watch TV with the thousands of bodies washing up on shore here.

    You realize that not a single one of those died because of the nuke plant, right?

    Scott Jacobs (176843)

  186. I just wanted to say that I really appreciate Jim2 and other smart commenters having a conversation that helps me understand the situation.

    This was a biblical scale disaster, and the Japanese systems haven’t weathered it perfectly, but I still find myself grateful and impressed they held up as well as they have.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  187. Apparently some engineeers blush, because I am.

    Thanx, Dustin!

    jim2 (a9ab88)

  188. Patterico’s Pontifications: Providing slightly uncomfortable bromance moments since 2003

    Scott Jacobs (176843)

  189. Just so you know, Jeff Goldstein and his commenters say I have spread misinformation by writing this post. Which I didn’t write, and which does not contain misinformation.

    Here is his commenter:

    Pat’s at it again, now he is claiming there are *three* meltdowns. I have not heard of confirmation of just *one* yet. It’s like he’s going out of his way to find the most pessimistic sources.

    And Jeff responds:

    I heard two nuke experts on Hannity saying they wished people who didn’t understand what meltdowns were would stop talking breathlessly about meltdowns.

    Right now, the rating for damage is a 4. Three Mile Island was a 5, 10x as bad. Chernobyl was 7 (the highest).

    But Chernobyl had no containment building. Japan’s reactors do. According to both experts, no harm to humans is likely. The caveat being that they aren’t there, and so they have to rely on outside sources.

    Their take was that the hyperventilation and the misinformation being propagated only helps the enviro leftists. And is designed to do such.

    – Which of course means that these two experts need to be obsessively stalked in perpetuity for questioning Frey’s honor or some such. I forget how it works when you disagree and tell him he’s helping the left.

    Couple points here.

    1) I didn’t write this post.
    2) I don’t see any misinformation in this post.
    3) The expert has a point about using the term meltdown without definitions and context, which is why I have tried to link such context here, as has Aaron.
    4) If anyone is spreading misinformation, it is Goldstein, who wrote a post with a headline saying there had been no meltdown, linking to an article that said there had been one.
    5) It is not “stalking” for me to point out such errors. Pointing out errors on the Internet is what bloggers do. Claiming that such behavior is “stalking” is the sort of thing Brett Kimberlin does. It is a claim designed to squelch criticism. (Interestingly, people who make such claims engage in actual stalkerish behavior — like Kimberlin, who has called and written my workplace obsessively, or Goldstein, who I’m told recently wrote a blogger so many angry e-mails that the blogger had a lawyer write a cease and desist letter. Which Goldstein ignored and continued to send e-mails. As long as we’re discussing “stalking.”)

    I guess I’m supposed to just sit mute while this guy accuses me of the very same behavior (spreading misinformation, stalkerish behavior) that he actually engages in. No thanks.

    If he would like me to stop talking about him, he could a) stop attacking me without provocation, as he did last month when he (again) threatened to quit blogging and started calling me names out of the blue, and b) stop lying about me. Thanks!

    Patterico (c218bd)

  190. How is it I completely missed another Jeff episode?

    Oh yeah, Japan’s biblical scale disaster.

    Sheesh, PW guys.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  191. Brian Jones was impreesive in his attempt to be more breathless and wrong than epwj. That is no small feat. Brava.

    JÐ (822109)

  192. JD

    Are you still financially suporting Jeff?

    EricPWJohnson (86538c)

  193. To quote Jerry Seinfeld: really?

    Quit being a jerk.

    Simon Jester (112e11)

  194. Well, speaking as a nuke, I personally interpret the data, the reports, and the other information to date to be that those three units have all suffered core damage, and perhaps significant core damage.

    I think there is insufficient bases to make an informed conclusion as to how much damage, did they melt or did rods just burst or crumble, etc. Maybe others have adequate bases, but I do not.

    Additionally, some good science and engineer work will need to be done to better assess the longer term effects of the seawater.

    jim2 (a9ab88)

  195. I’m pretty sure Brian was just performance art, showing us what a human over-reactor in meltdown would be like. But that’s OK Brian… we saw Madison Wisconsin on the news.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  196. Simon,

    Did he give money to Jeff this month so he could smear Pat again? Just curious, so JD willingly supports a blog knowing that it will use those resources to do harm to the host and some of us here?

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  197. One more thing I would mention is that, while I think I understand the situations at Units 1, 2, 4, 5, and 6, I do not fully understand the full situation at Unit 2.

    That is, sea water injection – yes. Core cooled – yes. But I do not understand the TEPCO report on the effects of the hydrogen event(s ?) there. The events at 1 and 3 were high in the secondary containments, and so had no structural implications. I can’t work out what was said about Unit 2, but it did not seem the same as at 1 and 3.

    I wish I could read Japanese!

    jim2 (a9ab88)

  198. Dustin,

    Brian is over the top and I cnt help but think that the decades of histronics over nuclear power for reasons other than safety, have harmed the industry into a false sense of over engineering and forcing even narrow pursuit of profit and reinvestment that these countless frivolous lawsuits have wrought.

    But, for the quite poosible human sacrifice, 50 or so lives maybe directly lost as they battle these failing systems.

    I can’t help but think where the world would be if evironmental politics stayed out of he science of safe nuclear energy

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  199. and now I’m dropping letters – d@mn Qtel DSL

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  200. Epwj is really in no positiom to discuss other people’s histrionics.

    JÐ (0d2ffc)

  201. jim2 @ 192,


    Rodney G. Graves (f12db5)

  202. This is why, Eric, you have the respect and affection you do around here.

    Meanwhile, did you determine your total exposure to radiation this year from total jet travel, and compared it to background levels where you live? You can do all that, you know.

    Or you can repeat what the MSM says and be a jerk to other people (while complaining that people treat you poorly). Your choice.

    Simon Jester (112e11)

  203. JD

    So did you hit the tip box yet this month over at Smears are Us?

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  204. Now Eric, would you like it if people asked you about Breitbart being frogmarched into court repeatedly? I know you are posting this to curry favor with Patterico, but it’s thread jacking. Go breathe into a paper bag or something.

    You are such a tool.

    Simon Jester (112e11)

  205. Simon

    1) I was JUST PASSING along the information

    2) I made no F@CKING comment on it

    3) You have made direct comments about where I am, what I do, expressing disbelief that I live in the middle east, I believe a bunch of other comments as well

    4) So you blog for affection? So I should lie to get along?

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  206. Dustin,

    Over the weekend I had the gall to include a three-word link to a post of his which declared in the headline that meltdown had been avoided, which linked to an article that said there had been a partial meltdown. It was a minor error of the sort bloggers make all the time and what’s more the error originated with a Guardian headline writer, who (like Jeff) didn’t carefully read the body of the article.

    Instead of doing a quick and cheerful correction, they decided to have a full meltdown of their own and attack me, which I suppose was predictable. Now he is busy constructing a false narrative wherein I am hysterically passing along misinformation to help the left.

    Oh, and I’m a stalker! That said, nobody has sent *me* any cease and desist letters lately. I’m told Jeff can’t say the same.

    Patterico (d3c720)

  207. Breathe deeply, dude. Wow.

    Simon Jester (112e11)

  208. Simon,

    Its a blog, people express opinions, read what was actually said not what some Jeffcolyte smear merchant potty mouth says, who admits to financially supporting a known smear merchant a purveyor of lies, who deliberately put Pat’s family in the path of a pyscho by leaking he emails. That’s who JD hangs out with – proudly

    So please, attack me all you want,

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  209. Patterico, that wasn’t to you, of course. I’m sorry you have to deal with this nonsense.

    Simon Jester (112e11)

  210. Simon,

    I dont do anything to curry favor with Pat and he yo my knowledge hasn’t granted any favor to me – I appreciate what he does, and he appreciates the fact I say stupid things from time to time.

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  211. Less thread jacking, maybe?

    Simon Jester (112e11)

  212. Simon,

    Your the one and JD engaging in thread jacking when you personally attack people

    Maybe you guys could stop eh?

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  213. You actually are pretty amusing when you do this. Again, and I’m not being a jerk, what is the exposure to radiation you accrued via jet travel in the past year, compared to background where you live? Twofold? Tenfold?

    It’s easy to calculate, and relevant to the thread.

    Simon Jester (112e11)

  214. Simon,

    I just typed what I saw on the tele, if its wrong, its not my fault, please again, address your issues with Al Jazeera, The NRC, The Japanese Ministry of Health, TEPCO.

    If they are rong I apologize for them, but I am not in a position, not being there, with a medical degree and a PHD in Nuclear Physics with Bactine and a Gieger(sp) counter to confirm their information

    Sometimes we might have to rely on some information from other than bloggers

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  215. Simon

    Ed Morrisey at Hotair is reporting a 100 times normal levels south of the plant – feel free to go over there and start your schtick – BTW the troll hammer is ver active over there in this subject

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  216. Again, I hope you actually do the calculations. For example, airline personnel are classified as working with radiation based on their long term exposure. It’s not tough math, and I have given you the links.

    Me, I don’t trust the press in general. MIT has a nice blog up about the reactors (linked to earlier in the thread). There are other places you can go. But the press? Not so much.

    And passing along scary stories without looking into facts, to be gentle, only promotes fear and misunderstanding. You know this to be true, when you become unhappy with people who promote ideas about the Middle East you think untrue or unfair based on your own personal experiences. This is no different.

    You are a smart man; you can look into this kind of thing for yourself. Trusting journalists, and passing along their jabbering? You don’t like it when it passes along something unfair or untrue about things with which you have experience. Why would the press me more reliable here? They aren’t, and I suspect you know it.

    Again, I am not saying that there isn’t a disaster in the making in Japan. I am saying that the press does not know squat…and instead, they love wild and extreme headlines.

    Simon Jester (112e11)

  217. Simon, the geiger counter reading were from a German Troop Unit

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  218. I’ll tell you this though, Al Jazeera has a chip on its shoulder and a fanatical mission to get there (to every story everywhere) with experts in every situation, I’m totally amazed at the fact they let Jewish lawmakers on their radio show panels to confront radical imans and dont ask them misleading questions – and ask tough questions all around

    thy wiffed the Lara Logan story – avoided it and have avoided the latest horrible murders so they havent come all they way – but Al Qaeda and Ghadaffi had murdered their correspondents and camermen, that they have done

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  219. And there you go again. You know what? You go right ahead and carry on. The same article at Hot Air you cite describes in an update that levels have lessened markedly (notice how we don’t get numbers, repeatedly?), and, more to the point, the Japanese people will have more to worry about from a lack of electricity, food, and water.

    But the next time someone breathlessly passes along this kind of thing about something you know about—why, don’t complain or call for accuracy and caution. After all, they are only passing along what they heard.


    Simon Jester (112e11)

  220. EricPW accusing someone of personal attacks.

    So says the guy who thinks the duke lacrosse players raped Crystal Magnum even though they did not.

    And you know what i’am talking about.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  221. Barack Obama sucks balls Will Smith for sure should play him in the movie

    scene one

    fade in

    Barack Obama is enthusiastically sucking balls when he is interrupted by a rather excited pantsuited Hillary Clinton.

    Hillary: You and your balls haha anyhoo there’s a wee problem in Japan. It’s nuclear fizzy!

    Barack Obama ignores her, glances meaningfully at camera, and enthusiastically redoubles his ball-sucking activity.

    [cue stirring Will Smith tune; opening credits begin]

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  222. Dohbiden


    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  223. His filling out brackets, and traveling to Rio, for reals, (sorry pikachu) Julianne more readily fits the Hillary model, in fact, I think she’s playing her in some adaptation of a biography

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  224. Peter Yanev NRC Earthquake Engineer ON CNN WARNING ON CNN _ YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED – saying the earthquake didnt damage the plant that all Nuclear plants are terribly vulnerable to flooding, all systems are down and shorted out by the Tsunami

    For further verification yes he was on CNN but they actually let him speak

    Here is his resume

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  225. This further misinformation was brought to you by breitkeefefongfrogmarch inc

    all rights reserved

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  226. I think you forgot that o’Keefe breached natal security, majority Christians in UAE, millions of Jews in Iran, and Mothra hovering over Kyoto.

    JD (7fbea1)

  227. Eric –

    Where does it say that Yanev is an NRC person?

    jim2 (a9ab88)

  228. I know that this doesn’t help, but for people who are interested in learning more—and seeing that the press, ahem, isn’t doing a great job of reporting things in context:

    Note the update. Note that we are getting numbers now, and with this kind of article, you can begin to put things in context.

    I like the last bit in the update: the only two options appear to be “all is okay” or “the world is ending.”

    But this all shows that my distrust of the media is not misplaced.

    Simon Jester (112e11)

  229. jim2

    He said he was he inspected Fukushima after some quake in 2000 something

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  230. Or was it with the NRC, I didnt record it – you might be able to find it on CNN achives – Abu Dhabi

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  231. JD

    Still hangin out over at smears are Us and doing the same here


    Did you support Jeffy this month JD? So he can keep on bloginh lies about PAT?

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  232. EPWJ, amusing that the “resume” you link to never mentiones Yanev as being a “NRC Earthquake Engineer”. Nor any reference that I could see to the NRC.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  233. SPQR, you are my “go to” guy on rationality. What did you think of the Pajamas Media link I posted? I liked how the numbers were laid out. They made sense to me, at least from when I had physics.

    Simon Jester (112e11)

  234. I do not think Yanev is currently with the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission. Like all federal agencies, the NRC is very particular about who speaks as an employee or rep for the agency, and I did not find that name on their site.

    Whatever that person is in the way of credentials, I doubt he is an “NRC Earthquake Engineer.” With that said, it is certainly possible that maybe he once worked there, or maybe once consulted for the NRC.

    jim2 (a9ab88)

  235. Maybe he is a version of Ron Burgundy, jim2.

    Simon Jester (112e11)

  236. Maybe this gives more of a flavor of the matter

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  237. Guys, again, I’m just typing whats on tv – if you have problems with the content – please email the guy, and tell him he’s full of crap, after all, you’re bloggers – he’s just another multi-millionaire with a boring resume with thousands of achievements on it

    but lets listen to someone in the thread…

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  238. The statement that the earthquake did not damage the nuclear plants itself is interesting. That such would survive a magnitude 9.0 quake is impressive. Rebuts a lot of hand-wringing about nuclear energy.

    Its easy to look at a tsunami and not appreciate the immense destructive force of large volumes of moving water.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  239. Or…you could look into it yourself.

    Without being nasty, haven’t you urged people to do the same on issues where you believe yourself expert?

    Passing along MSM stuff? Again, you haven’t liked it when people do that for issues in the Middle East.

    But I don’t care to battle with you anymore.

    You are a smart man; read the links and crunch the numbers.

    Or trust a Talking Head.

    Simon Jester (112e11)

  240. Not you, of course, SPQR.

    Simon Jester (112e11)

  241. I think the one “failsafe” that should have been anticipated as necessary is offsite generators that could be quickly flown in, and more importantly, directly connnected to the system.

    Lack of useful cabling/connectivity delayed the ability to restore cooling with generators brought in.

    The delay might have been avoided, along with the worst sequelae

    SarahW (af7312)

  242. plus I am seriously disappointed in the apparent total lack of actual working giant robots.

    I believed.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  243. Simon and SPQR – isn’t it cute how he is just passing along information, without comment, yet tries the argument from authoritah gambit, in his BS passive aggressive manner, by claiming his info is from a rich successful guy with much more achievement than just some random blog critic. Good Allah, you might be worse than the bad faithed trolls, epwj.

    JÐ (0d2ffc)

  244. I have heard (but not confirmed) reports that cable problems delayed hooking up generators that had been brought to the site.

    I would point out that US plants were required to plan for such things, including “mitigation strategies.” IIRC, the NRC issued the requirements in 2002. The term “B.5.b” will be familiar to US nukes, as it is the paragraph number that had the requirements. Among the things they were supposed to mitigate was an extended Station Black Out (SBO) caused by an attack, but they would have been just as helpful in the case of any cause of extended SBO.

    Among the effects of this event, I would not be surprised if those required actions got more attention. Compatibility of cable fittings might top such a list!

    jim2 (a9ab88)

  245. Parick, this whole business about “misinformation” is all trumped up.

    I don’t really attribute to him the “mistake” or error you’re accusing him
    of, and I think somehow it was twisted by someone invested in
    protecting a particular point of view.

    I took his larger point to be not that he had reliable information about Meltdowns in general or Meltdowns in Japan, but that early reports are vague and misleading and earlier claims were walked back, modified. That is MY view, my interpretation of what I read. So I necessarily think this is a whole lot of reaction about nothing, that wasn’t any direct criticism of your attempt to update on the situation.

    I really do not believe it anything in the post you criticized was in reaction to anything written here.

    Seems like one to let go to me.

    I happen to agree that early blog coverage by almost anyone who wasn’t an expert themselves was mostly useless, as the situation was so poorly reported by the mainstream media and it was hard to get a precise handle on anything with vague reports, and often did not properly emphasize the likelihood of containment even in event of fuel meltdown.

    SarahW (af7312)

  246. jim2, the problem posed by this catastrophe is that contingency plans that rely upon some nearby well of manpower and equipment fail when the destruction is so immense, and widespread that there is no supply of either available to bring into play.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  247. SPQR –

    Japan has/had 55 nuke plants operating at 17 sites, such that all but the two sites here were not materially affected. Other sites were under construction, with lots of equipment at those, as well. The number of heavy lift helos must be high, though I think they might not have been necessary.

    Japan is too large and too much an industrial nation for those arguments to convince me. They had 2 days. The nukes knew they had 2 days. They failed.

    Look at it this way, if in 1979 President Carter could get a heavy unit from Hanford, Washington to TMI in about 24 hours, why could not Japan in 2011 get something a lesser distance in 48 hours?

    Yes, the earthquake and wave effects were catastrophic all over that area, but they had 48 hours (and the nukes knew it!) and the rest of the nation to draw from. Heck, I bet the USN had stuff that could have been made to work in Yokuska.

    jim2 (a9ab88)

  248. Where do you land it, it’s not just a matter of distance, it’s damage to the surrounding infrastructure, roads, bridges, the Sendai airport

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  249. I have a hard time seeing that as a problem with helos. Per the videos I have seen, it sure looks like there would have been plenty of places to put stuff down, move it, etc. on the plant site.

    For that matter, the unconfirmed reports I have seen talked of trucking equipment into the site.

    jim2 (a9ab88)

  250. Europe’s energy commissioner Guenther Oettinger dubbed the nuclear disaster an “apocalypse”, saying Tokyo had almost lost control of events at the Fukushima power plant.

    “There is talk of an apocalypse and I think the word is particularly well chosen,” he said in remarks to the European Parliament.*

    why are europeans such compulsive douchebags is it for reals that they just can’t help themselves or is there training involved?

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  251. No, pikachu, it takes extensive training, to get that brain addled,

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  252. “Seems like one to let go to me.”

    SarahW – That’s what you told Jeff as well, right? And the reaction?

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  253. He was a hack, promoted to his proper level of incompetence

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  254. so apocalypse boy’s wife left him for a porsche executive and he went out and found him a little fraulein old enough to be his son’s sister

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  255. jeez it’s like cowardly douchebag christmas or something

    “I’m not prepared by the way to say that we should abandon nuclear power because I think it’s a major contributor [to] our energy needs but I am prepared, once this is over, to make an evaluation as to whether our nuclear power plans can continue,” McCain said.*

    Did someone ask for this douchehole’s input no they didn’t.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  256. “If anyone is spreading misinformation, it is Goldstein, who wrote a post with a headline saying there had been no meltdown, linking to an article that said there had been one.”

    Patterico – You have it all wrong. Writing a post distorting what is going on, alleging that you are stalking, when it is in fact Jeff G. who engages in stalkerish behavior, is just another win for INTENTIONALISM and True Ethical Conservatism and Classical Ethical Liberalism!!!!!11ty!!!!!!!

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  257. it’s possible it might could happen someday that it’s not the case but SarahW’s considered opinion is usually pretty solid on the money you can take it to the bank sort of stuff

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  258. here is another optimistic link

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  259. Parick, this whole business about “misinformation” is all trumped up.

    I don’t really attribute to him the “mistake” or error you’re accusing him
    of, and I think somehow it was twisted by someone invested in
    protecting a particular point of view.

    I took his larger point to be not that he had reliable information about Meltdowns in general or Meltdowns in Japan, but that early reports are vague and misleading and earlier claims were walked back, modified. That is MY view, my interpretation of what I read. So I necessarily think this is a whole lot of reaction about nothing, that wasn’t any direct criticism of your attempt to update on the situation.

    Sarah, his headline was “Japan relieved after nuclear meltdown in Fukushima avoided.” The link went to a story that said there was a partial meltdown. I did not trump up those facts.

    If he’s not criticizing me then who is this other “Frey” who he is criticizing for helping the left by spreading misinformation?

    As for his now doing an entire post about my comment above, I will say only that this is what I was told, by the recipient of his e-mails. Whether they choose to reveal themselves and face the fury of the hive mind over there is up to them. I have e-mailed them a link to Jeff’s post.

    Patterico (d3c720)

  260. “SarahW’s considered opinion is usually pretty solid on the money you can take it to the bank sort of stuff”

    Mr. Feets – I agree with that. What I do not agree with is people only telling one side to let it go or cease and desist as Mr. Jeff G’s sycophant’s are fond of doing while continuing the PW chorus.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  261. ‘specially that harridan, what’s her piehole, dicentralization or something.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  262. oops, did I say that out loud?

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  263. we should sing a song

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  264. Jim2, I suspect that in a country with tens of thousands of dead already after earthquake and tsunami that there are a lot of demands for heavy lift helicopters.

    As to why we’ve not already transfered every working helicopter the US has from Korea, Guam, Hawaii, etc. I don’t know. If I was President of the US, I would have. But I don’t play golf.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  265. Here is an argument that the media overreaction to the nuclear plant problems is actually endangering lives at a time when immense numbers of Japanese are exposed to threats of a more mundane character – need for rescue, lack of clean water, shelter, food etc.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  266. SPQR –

    If the Japanese made a deliberate triage decision on those helos, sobeit.

    What I personally suspect, however, is that “face” somehow got in the way here. That is, it will eventually be concluded that someone(s) failed to ask or make their needs known. I would not be surprised if it (much) later comes out that the equipment needed to avert the core damge events was available, that the lift capacity was available, and that folk wanted to help who could have done so in time.

    If I am later proven to be wrong, I will admit same.

    jim2 (fea3ad)

  267. speaking of helicopter machines

    For Japan, the world’s third-largest economy, money isn’t the problem, at least in the short-term. “They don’t need money, they need supplies flowing in immediately,” says Michael Auslin, director of Japan Studies at the American Enterprise Institute.

    More than 500,000 displaced people are currently being housed in temporary shelters, according to the American Red Cross. At least a million people are still without electricity and water.

    Getting to the most devastated regions is still proving difficult and supplies in the region are running low. “You have millions without basic necessities and there is almost no way to get them these necessities in bulk because roads are washed out, airports are inoperable, port are gone. You have to use helicopters.”

    What Japan needs now, Auslin says, is for the U.S. to organize an operation like the Berlin Airlift of 1948-49. That Cold War mission proved successful in getting supplies to blockaded portions of the German capital. With the threat of the nuclear plant disaster growing, Auslin speculates Japan will also need more in terms of iodine and other decontamination supplies.*

    why are we not helping them we should have been on top of this already Obama needs to stop worrying about golf and be helpful

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  268. jim2, those kind of misallocations always happen in extreme catastrophes. Here we heard everyone that happened in Katrina was Bush’s personal responsibility. The earthquake was orders of magnitude greater in devastation.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  269. My posts keep on double posting.

    The MFM will use this tragedy to stoke their Anti-nuclear power bloodlust.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  270. My information is that to date, no one has received enough radiation exposure to actually demonstrate radiation poisoning symptoms.

    So that alone tells me that we are getting hyped by media overreaction.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  271. SPQR –

    The difference here is that I am convinced that a great many people knew the window and its limit for this very specific and very important thing. This is not a generalized thing like, “Mars Needs Women.” This was Helium needed Dejah Thoris, her daughter Thuvia, or Llana of Gathol, they needed one of them in 48 hours, and it was in skywriting in the skies of Barsoom.

    jim2 (fea3ad)

  272. “SarahW’s considered opinion is usually pretty solid on the money you can take it to the bank sort of stuff”

    I agree with that too. However, this particular opinion of hers:

    Parick, this whole business about “misinformation” is all trumped up.

    Is wrong to the extent that she is suggesting I “trumped up” an accusation that Jeff had passed along misinformation. To be quite specific, he wrote a post with a headline was “Japan relieved after nuclear meltdown in Fukushima avoided.” Yet the only link in his post offered to support the headline was to a Guardian story that said quite the opposite:

    The discovery indicates that meltdown, caused by a nuclear reaction running out of control, had indeed affected the reactor’s fuel rods – although possibly only to a limited extent.

    Darleen then came over here and alleged that the original Guardian story bore the same inaccurate headline as Jeff’s post, meaning he took his headline from theirs. I believe that is true. Then she speculated that the original story might not have had the information about the meltdown. I provided evidence that this was not so, namely, a link to another publication that had reprinted the original Guardian story — complete with the misleading headline AND the passage that belied the headline.

    As I have said, this is no big deal; bloggers make mistakes all the time, and are also sometimes guilty (as Jeff was here) of not fully reading the stories they link. A blog committed to accuracy would simply issue a quick and cheerful correction. That did not happen here.

    My allegation of misinformation by Goldstein was not only not trumped up, but fully supported by the facts. I don’t know if Sarah will return to defend her comment. But while this particular opinion for hers was not only wildly off the mark but unnecessarily accusatory, that is an aberration, in my opinion — and I agree with happy that her opinions are usually on the mark.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  273. National Soros Radio told me like a dozen times on the way home not to worry about radiations and my commute is only 6 minutes.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  274. jim2, resources get misallocated because the people holding them think they have important uses for them too. They don’t know of others’ needs, and others do not know of their resources.

    It happens.

    If the operators have successfully done a neutron poisoning with the boron additives, then I think we merely need to wait out the remaining cooling of the decay products.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  275. speaking of meltdowns did we know this?

    The $6 billion in cuts includes $2.6 billion in earmarks and $1.74 billion in money that was allocated for last year’s Census but not spent.

    I didn’t know that cause nobody tells me anything but I think it’s very sad especially that they’re counting not spending Census monies as a cut … this isn’t what I had in mind when I voted for Team R in 2010 (except not Meg I voted for the L instead cause Meg bothers me I did begrudgingly vote for Carly though … mostly cause Dustin learned me that Carly was not against drilling the oils)

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  276. will the cooling decay products happen before the markets open tomorrow is kinda what’s on my mind Mr. SPQR

    is that shallow?

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  277. Yeah, Meg was not really what I’d call a AAA candidate.

    And this BS spending cut is not a AAA Republican platform, either. I’m no purist, but eventually you start to wonder what the hell the point is of supporting liars (And if they pretend they are even remotely on track without major entitlement reform, then they are lying about being conservative or even fiscally awake).

    Dustin (c16eca)

  278. happyfeet, yes that’s shallow.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  279. I can understand if you want to talk to Sarah about that particular assertion but mostly I thought her conclusion was sound:

    Seems like one to let go to me.

    Maybe it’s just the context of what’s going on these days but I have an abiding sense that what’s happened in Japan is something we as a little country should be very focused on. Very extremely. And we’re not. Not in the sense that we’re making too much of an effort to help anyway. From National Soros Radio you get the distinct idea that Obama and his socialist pals are trying to figure out how to exploit the situation and much of the right is cowardly and scared like McCain wondering if past stances on nuclear energy are going to cause them political difficulty.

    Definitely not covering herself with glory, our little country.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  280. I’ve seen (or perhaps heard on TV) that three people have been diagnosed with actual radiation poisoning; the context implied that these three unfortunates worked at the plants.

    If I find further information, I’ll post it.

    kishnevi (c89e0a)

  281. Yes, pikachu, you’re right to be cynical, Soros and his patrons at CAP and the NRDC, along with other members of the sinosphere, will do everything to suffocate nuclear energy, as they have tried to do with oil,

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  282. SPQR –

    This is not about nuclear neutron absorbers; it never has been, not since the rods went in at the time of the earthquake. This is about decay heat.

    jim2 (fea3ad)

  283. jim2, I understand your point but I’ve heard differing versions via second-hand descriptions of some DOE briefings.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  284. Someday I hope to write a sentence about a harridan’s hagiography that not only make sense… but is totally on point.

    SteveG (cc5dc9)

  285. the nikkei is off to a better start today – it’s up about 6% just at the moment

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  286. I can understand if you want to talk to Sarah about that particular assertion but mostly I thought her conclusion was sound:

    Seems like one to let go to me.

    daleyrocks asked Sarah whether she offered that advice at Goldstein’s site, where he appears to have spent the better part of his day agonizing over a comment of mine, writing a lengthy hundreds-words long post, and updating it with hundreds more words. All to show that I am the one obsessed with him.

    I might ask you the same, happy. Did you offer this advice over there?

    Oh, that’s right, you can’t. Because you were banned.

    Anyway, any account of how obsessed I am should take account of this self-pitying comment that Goldstein left on his site on February 14:

    Nearly ten years. And I’ll I got was this lousy t-shirt!

    Only without the shirt.

    You know what? Althouse and others are doing the intentionalism thing now. And there are plenty of newish OUTLAWS out there. Plus, I’ve got Frey badmouthing me to everyone he can surreptitiously email, because he’s a fucking paranoid, self-important whackjob — and my ordinary online “abrasiveness” has caused me nothing but a series of defections among one-time supporters, anyway.

    10 years is about enough. My mark on the blogosphere has been fairly pronounced, I think, but in terms of how it’ll be remembered, I’m a nobody. Ferret country blog @ 185,693. Seems about right.

    Later, all.

    If Darleen and the rest of you guys who can post want to keep this increasingly unimportant and (frankly) despised place alive, have at it. Maybe I’ll post again, maybe not. Honestly, I don’t think many people would care at this point. Turns out I’m more replaceable than I at one time imagined.

    (As an aside, the semi-threat to retire gained mostly yawns over there, mostly because they’re all heard it literally dozens of times before. I still remember the first time I saw one of the famous Threats to Quit years ago. I still liked the site and wrote a friend in a panic. He replied: “Dude, he does that all the time. All. The. Time.” It’s a pathetic scream for validation — and, like a drug, it apparently delivers less satisfaction after repeated uses. But that doesn’t stop the addiction.)

    Anyway, the above rant about me was completely and utterly 100% unprovoked. So the bit about how he doesn’t care about me is him pathetically trying to reassure himself that he doesn’t care. Why else has he spent most of the day obsessing about the fact that someone revealed to me his stalkerish e-mails and his cease and desist letter?

    Anyway, it appears that the recipient of those e-mails will not go public. His lawyer advised him that the best way to de-escalate the situation and stop Jeff’s flood of unhinged e-mails was to simply ignore him. He says the e-mails have stopped lately and he does not want to re-escalate the situation.

    But Jeff’s claim that I might be making this up is a load of horseshit. I wouldn’t have even brought it up, but for the rich irony of the fact that he accused me of being a stalker for a three-word link, while he is issuing unprovoked self-pitying rants like the one quoted above, and sending barrages of e-mails to someone who felt the need to have a lawyer send a cease and desist letter (not an “order” as he dishonestly claims I said; stop lying, Jeff!) but a letter.

    Time for cut-and-paste Joe to get to work! Me, I have better things to do.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  287. I can’t even read over there at all cause of I haven’t changed my IP address and it just redirects me to google.

    So there may be a lot of this I’m missing.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  288. Wow. So he can ban you from even reading the site?

    Patterico (c218bd)

  289. You are not permitted to enter this website

    You have been banned until: indefinite.

    Reason: Not given

    You will be redirected to another website in 3 seconds.

    protein wisdom is proudly powered by WordPress

    You are a victim of the easyban plugin.

    I think it’s the same technology the Chinese use.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  290. New update says my “new line of attack” is his repeating the headline.

    Which is of course quite dishonest, since that was always my line of “attack” (although it wasn’t really an attack but an observation). When Darleen came over screeching about my three word link, I explained that the factually false headline was the problem.

    Always. From the very beginning.

    So the “new line of attack” argument is either a lie, or he didn’t bother to understand what the problem was after writing hundreds of words defending himself.

    Has anyone ever made such a fuss over being mildly called on a simple error?


    Patterico (c218bd)

  291. Found via Billy Beck this news aggregator site, which seems to be a useful source for up-to-date publicly available knowledge

    kishnevi (c89e0a)

  292. JD

    Are you still supporting Jeff’s efforts financially? Are you still spreadinf disinformation knowingly and willingly like Jeff?

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  293. here is a song about building an aviary

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  294. Joe didn’t cut and paste the whole comment– I guess he figured it would hurt Jeff’s feelings to be reminded of all the times he threatened to quit to get some praise, or to have quoted back to him that pitiful comment he made on February 14. Everyone over here saw the comment though.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  295. Allahpundit has information that contradicts the gathering of expert nuclear scientists and technicians here – or the same set of us who are experts on everything

    Allah should have now better than to post stuff that conflicts with the commentators here – I have sent him an email warning him of the error of his ways

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  296. speaking of meltdown, feets, I think Rubio was about to have one today.

    I had heard there was a carrier in the vicinity of Japan, and I scolded Soros and Beck for not telling you about it, feets. Beck apologized, Soros didn’t.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  297. I wonder what cut’n paste Joe wants to be when he grows up.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  298. For benefit of mr feets:
    Found this rooting around the WordPress forums

    Short answer, yes, a WordPress based blog can ban based on IP addresses, although easyban is actually an outdated plug in.

    kishnevi (33a0bd)

  299. EricPW – When are you planning on apologizing for calling Sarah Palin a racist?

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  300. What are the conflicts?

    Engineers had questions and structural concerns, the regulator asked questions, GE did some upgrades as time went by and more was learned … and the daggone plants structurally survived a 9.0 earthquake that was something like 5 – 10 times the printed design specs and the regulators’ requirements.

    The problems now all stem from having not gotten AC power back soon enough.

    jim2 (fea3ad)

  301. I have of course, only anecdotal evidence from the blog I frequent most, but here goes in Osaka, theyaren’t panicking over the radiation, in Narita, quite some distance away, they did feel the quake, but radiation is not the main concern,in Korea and other places, they are much more concerned about the supply chain disruptions, in India they are concerned about that, and the damage to developing their nuclear power. no name brand bloggers or reporters, but level headed scientists, businessman et al, FWIW. Oh and Shep seems to making more sense than usual, on that channel, so that’s clearly a sign of the apocalypse.

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  302. BTW, I know it may have been petty of me, but I loved how Obama took credit for the US helping wihen that help was coming from a nuclear powered ship named after Ronald Reagan.

    jim2 (fea3ad)

  303. “Joe didn’t cut and paste the whole comment– I guess he figured it would hurt Jeff’s feelings to be reminded of all the times he threatened to quit to get some praise”

    I don’t want to go over there and look. Seeing Charlie Sheen melt down in public is embarrassing enough.

    Climb down off the cross Jeff, we need to save the wood for when Obama cuts off all our other energy sources!

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  304. Rubio is focused on priorities. He’s very likely the future. I didn’t know about the aircraft carrier. I did hear that some sailors had to get hosed down cause of radiation and I remember thinking damn that must have sucked cause they’re probably not very gentle about it.

    Thank you kishnevi the plugin’s magic is broken if I get a new IP is all I know, which I’ll probably get if I go on a trip to Texas this spring. I need to renew my driver’s license the gate agents at the airport are starting to get fussy.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  305. I wonder what cut’n paste Joe wants to be when he grows up.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 3/15/2011 @ 6:32 pm

    Definitely not you.

    Joe (ec2663)

  306. “As to why we’ve not already transfered every working helicopter the US has from Korea, Guam, Hawaii, etc. I don’t know.”

    SPQR – They are circling Jeff G.’s house as we speak. Doesn’t anybody tell you anything?

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  307. don’t let haters keep you off your grind keep your head up I know you’ll be fine … keep fighting until you get there

    when you’re down and you feel like giving up

    yeah you know what to do

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  308. “Comment by Joe — 3/15/2011 @ 6:43 pm”

    Beautiful, in so many ways.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  309. YuKio Edano, the cheif cabinet secretary confirmed reactor #3 is possibly breached

    However I know that the experts here may have problems with this information – oh they evacuated the remaining 50 employees who volunteered to stay behind

    I know that you guys are more tuned in but the plant has been abandoned according to some uniformed Chief Cabinet Minister in Japan

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  310. “Someday I hope to write a sentence about a harridan’s hagiography that not only make sense… but is totally on point.”

    SteveG – It is good to have goals.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  311. Off topic, but something to be cheerful about.

    Supplementary link with a couple of further facts

    At the very least, you can print them out and send to your local politicians the next time they want to spend your money.

    kishnevi (33a0bd)

  312. Rubio’s a fairly mellow sort, like moi, you haven’t seen us when we’re truly agitated, a 6 billion CR cut, that doesn’t even rise to a ‘travesty of two mockeries of a sham’,

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  313. Jeff G. posted on 3/15 @ 8:47 pm
    I want to see these unhinged emails I supposedly sent.

    But, to recap:

    Frey claims he heard I was sent a cease and desist letter.

    I have replied without reservation that I never received one, and that I never sent a series of “unhinged emails” to anyone.

    I have given my permission to whomever received said emails to release them in all their serial unhinged-ness. I have asked for some proof that a letter was sent (and then received by me).

    Frey’s response: my anonymous source says it’s so, but my anonymous source wished to remain anonymous so as not to re-escalate the situation.

    To which I now respond, should I not already know the source were it true that I’d sent this person a series of unhinged emails and received a cease and desist letter on his/her behalf? If so, how does this person expect to remain anonymous? What motivation do I have for not releasing the name of the person whom I supposedly sent unhinged emails to, and who supposedly sent me a cease and desist letter?

    Or didn’t that ever cross Frey’s mind?

    He’s either lying or he’s being lied to.


    Hell, release the Kracken!

    Joe (ec2663)

  314. serr8d posted on 3/15 @ 8:59 pm
    He’s inventing the stuff, Jeff. He’s a persecutorial prosecutor by nature; he can’t lie under oath, but he’s not under oath right now. Like a cop, he can, and will, lie to obtain any leverage at all over a ‘suspect’, and that’s how he’s treating you, as a suspect. He’s using the tools of his profession, methods that come as naturally as putting on his frumpy pants in the morning.

    Joe (ec2663)

  315. Joe – That serr8d is almost as smart as you!

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  316. bananas contain a lot of potassium so does coconut water

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  317. What motivation do I have for not releasing the name of the person whom I supposedly sent unhinged emails to, and who supposedly sent me a cease and desist letter?

    Uh, because you’re denying it happened and that would be admitting it?

    Patterico (c218bd)

  318. putting on his frumpy pants in the morning.

    Frumpy Pants Frey certainly has a certain ring to it.

    But he can’t insult you any other way than by dissing your wardrobe?!

    Most people stop doing that by the time they graduate high school. Some people manage to stop by the time they graduate middle school.

    kishnevi (66ab73)

  319. It’s part of that whole OUTLAW business, apparently.

    Simon Jester (7d671c)

  320. To be clear: I have not seen the e-mails in question. I was merely told there were many of them, written at odd hours of the morning, they were rants, a letter was sent threatening action if they didn’t stop, they continued, but (i hear today for the first time) stopped soon after.

    Not making it up. That’s what I was told. Some on the phone and some in e-mails.

    One of Jeff’s commenters is now wishing my e-mails could be hacked, to prove his theories about what he believes they would contain. This crowd, as always, has no morals — plus he is flat wrong. I am trying to persuade the person to release the e-mails and the cease and desist letter. The lawyer who sent it is apparently not thrilled about being dragged into this and is upset at me for having said anything. No decision will be made until after consultation with the lawyer tomorrow.

    That’s about all I can say. Didn’t make it up and I think Jeff knows it.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  321. here’s a picture of a very very high cliff – it’s almost a mile high! It’s hard to tell how steep it is from the picture.

    Steep enough I imagine.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  322. Reminds me of what was said about Watergate. It’s the coverup that is usually the problem. Folks can act wacky, but when lawyers get involved, they should be very, very cautious. As all parties know quite well.

    Simon Jester (7d671c)

  323. #308

    Striving to be better. Maybe able to muster at least the posthumous IQ to score at least a 60 on the DPD test and then immediately arrest myself from further crimes. Which raises all kinds of questions…

    SteveG (cc5dc9)

  324. Jeff’s response (and no I did not recopy where he copied your post at #318 for reference):

    Not a single bit of truth to any of this. Frey either made it up or he got punked by one of his own.

    A list of questions that have not been answered:

    First, why would a lawyer who has already supposedly sent me a cease and desist letter not want his name mentioned? Would it not be on the cease and desist letter itself? How was this letter sent? To what address? Was it emailed? Was it faxed? From what address was it sent? Is there proof I received it? And isn’t the very fact of his having supposedly sent me this letter indicative of his having already involved himself?

    When did this take place? Over how long a period? How many emails were supposedly sent? Where are these emails? What constitutes “odd hours of the morning”? What were the rants about? Why is there no specificity to any of these accusations? Is Frey now saying he talked to this person on the phone? If so, shouldn’t he have some idea of what was said in these “rants” that were so “unhinged” and serially stalkerish? What was the context? Why was my impetus for supposedly sending these emails?

    Frey says now that all parties he’s citing are reluctant to go public, though he is trying hard to get them to do so. I have ASKED SPECIFICALLY for them to release these things. What’s the hold-up?

    The longer these go unreleased, the more suspicious I get that someone is working on fabricating something with my name attached to it.


    These are lies this prosecutor is peddling. And those suggesting it happened are lying.

    Are you lying Patterico or are you being lied to by one of your own? Seems odd a C&D letter would not be disclosed when the alleged target said to disclose it.

    Joe (ec2663)

  325. Not my decision.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  326. Is this alleged person upset you spilled the beans then? That was your decision.

    Joe (ec2663)

  327. “Is this alleged person upset you spilled the beans then? That was your decision.”

    Joe – What is your native language?

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  328. Joe,

    It was interesting that this odd scenarios keep coming up all about Jeff, like when he changed my comments when I questioned him about his dangerous threats to Scott, got him to admit he really meant it, then suddenly, two of my former clients reported wierd calls.

    Must be a coincidence, thenst in another time I waded in in defense of Pat on RSM’s threads and suddenly details of my IP, my avatar, etc were miraculously known by other parties, since one other blog and Jeff’s were the only one’s to actually have that information, lately, in was a dormat account that had not been used in years

    another coincidence

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  329. I’m getting a little freaked out by the racist comments about the Japanese People. They react and feel pain the same way as every other human being. Good God, if I hear one more “some of my best friends are Japanese” remarks, I’m going to have to start to question the way certain people look at the world. They are suffering. I’m sorry if it doesn’t fit into the preconceived mold.

    Rupert (ba321b)

  330. I’m getting a little freaked out by the racist comments about the Japanese People.
    Comment by Rupert — 3/15/2011 @ 9:19 pm

    Then you should go back to the blog where you read them and make your comment there.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  331. Nuclear power in the US bad

    Nuclear power in iran is for peaceful purposes

    I hate hypocritical dems.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  332. Stashiu3 – “It would be logically incorrect to judge the whole of Japanese culture by one incident, but this certainly speaks well of them that there has been very little looting during all this time” – Aaron Worthing
    A backhanded compliment to say the least. It feeds into the myth that Asians do not feel pain and loss “like normal people” They feel pain and suffering just like all other human beings. Please keep that in mind.

    Rupert (ba321b)

  333. Not only that bananas have potassium in them which is an radioactive element itself.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  334. “It feeds into the myth that Asians do not feel pain and loss “like normal people””

    Rupert – Where does this “myth” exist?

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  335. Rupert fuck off with your race card.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  336. A backhanded compliment to say the least. It feeds into the myth that Asians do not feel pain and loss “like normal people” They feel pain and suffering just like all other human beings. Please keep that in mind.
    Comment by Rupert — 3/15/2011 @ 9:47 pm

    Your racial sensitivity meter needs recalibration. Far be it from me to defend Aaron lightly, but if that comment “freaked” you out, stay off the internet before you get damaged even further.

    Also, what I will try to keep in mind is that you know nothing about me, so your advice about what to keep in mind about Asian people comes across only slightly less silly and condescending than it otherwise might. But only slightly.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  337. Little Stewie Griffin’s teddy-bear, Rupert, seems to be new to this thinkin’ thing.

    Icy Texan (361f6c)

  338. In America it probably started during WWII. There is also a terrible soundbite from Westmoreland(sp?), in which he categorically states that life in Asia is considered cheap.

    Rupert (ba321b)

  339. I’m not freaked out by the depth of the comment or the thinking that went into it. I only wish to convey that many people have a biased view of Southeast Asia that requires them to think a little harder about their presumptions.

    Rupert (ba321b)

  340. _________________________________________

    A backhanded compliment to say the least.

    Aaron’s response probably is more likely inspired by the context of modern culture worldwide, in which generally the ethos of “do your own thang,” and “if it feels good, do it!” has become pervasive. The mindset of self-entitlement — of “me, me, me!!” — accepted or shrugged off by far too many people.

    BTW, I wonder if the disaster involving the nuclear power plant should be placed against the backdrop of over 50 years ago. That’s when nuclear bombs — detonated not underground but on the surface — were tested in the desert of the Southwest US or in Pacific atolls. Wouldn’t such naivete from the 1940s through the 1960s have resulted in more radioactive contamination, or are power plants somehow more poisonous than nuclear bombs?

    Mark (3e3a7c)

  341. Stashiu3, you know that this person is just a’ trollin’. Perhaps we should give the gentleman some “backhanded” compliments.

    But I honestly don’t think this is on the level. The timing suggestions game playing.

    Simon Jester (7d671c)

  342. Comment by Simon Jester — 3/15/2011 @ 10:21 pm

    Wasn’t sure before, but the continued thread-jack is confirmation enough. Back to lurking.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  343. A backhanded compliment to say the least.

    Huh? You’re off your meds.

    Westmoreland(sp?), in which he categorically states that life in Asia is considered cheap.

    That has certainly been true at times in certain parts of Asia.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  344. My original complaint was more about the MSM and not Aaron. I should have made that more clear. Please feel free to insult me with Family Guy Characters. At least I know you guys have a good sense of humor.

    Rupert (ba321b)

  345. Some of my best friends are Japanese.

    Also, they banned happyfeet? He never attacks anyone he is arguing with personally. He pushes the envelope and I’m sure he gets under lots of folks’ skin (as he has mine a few times), but no blog that bans him is worth my time.

    Why is it that we get racism charges and generally uglier and nuttier trolls, people freaking about the Liberty or truthers or whatever, every single time there’s a Jeff G flareup? I think his blog attracts a lot of weirdos. JD got ticked off last time I mentioned it, but why is it that Yelverton, or whatshernamefromOregon, or Christoph all found this blog via PW?

    Rupert, you come across as a bigot, and you need to reevaluate your presumptions, which I believe are insincere attempts to divert attention from other topics.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  346. Dustin – My complaints were legitimate and should be discussed. The word racist is thrown around so much that I can understand the harsh negative reaction; however, if I had used the word “biased” would it make you feel better? Because of some family relations from that area, I might be overly sensitive; nevertheless, I would like this bias to be purged from our everyday conversations.

    Rupert (ba321b)

  347. Also – Dustin – How have I been a bigot to you?

    Rupert (ba321b)

  348. Dustin,

    Reactor 3 is on fire and the fuel earlier discussed in this thread with 100% certainty – is not uranium – but nothing to see here – now I hear that the Japanese have asked for full US Military intervention, not aide, intervention – which means – if THIS IS TRUE…. IF THIS IS TRUE… they have run out of assets and ideas and Tokyo is threatened


    My suggestion Leave the Ruperts alone they just want attention –

    Aaron, makes statements, I make statements

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  349. Some of my best temporary friends are Japanese schoolgirls in uniform.

    Icy Texan (361f6c)

  350. Also, Qataris in the Northwest Coastal villages can hear continous military arms fire over the water. I highly doubt it but it marks the concern rippling through

    What people dont realise is that all of the major international banks, the large audit firms, Coca Cola, Pepsi, Kraft Ford and so on a parade of the Forbes top 50 have their regional offices in Bahrain, as they dont tax and they dont have the draconian exit permits like Qatar and the UAE.

    This is disrupting banking, commerce throughout the GCC

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  351. Thanks Eric – Unless the Japanese are storing their Uranium in some odd matter, it should not catch fire. They may be waiting for some favorable winds to release radioactive steam.
    Thanks for pretending that I have the power to hijack a 300 count thread. Jeez – a couple of pointed questions and everybody folded their cards and ran.

    Rupert (ba321b)

  352. Let’s try it this way, Rupert. You come out of leftist[sic] field with your ad hom attack (“327.I’m getting a little freaked out by the racist comments about the Japanese People.”) and when challenged on its validity by Stashiu you defend your baseless accusation with this piece of ‘evidence’, a statement from Aaron Worthing: “It would be logically incorrect to judge the whole of Japanese culture by one incident, but this certainly speaks well of them that there has been very little looting during all this time.”

    Now — put on your thinkin’ toque — in your wildest imaginings have you thought that maybe, juuust maybe, you might have kinda possibly misinterpreted what Aaron wrote? Is there the slightest chance that he was genuinely congratulating the Japanese people for their high degree of civility in the midst of this horrible situation, while including the caveat that we don’t know the entire story yet?

    Icy Texan (361f6c)


    heh. Well, granted this is an extremely serious situation. The nuclear aspect is not the worst part of this disaster by any stretch, but it has already killed a few and could get much worse.

    Most of the time, much of the MSM coverage is hysterical and wrong and, yes, hype. I’m consuming very little TV news these days, so I have no idea how they are doing this time. Anyway, anyone who dismisses this meltdown situation is a jackass.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  354. Also – Dustin – How have I been a bigot to you?

    Comment by Rupert — 3/15/2011 @ 10:52 pm


    Dustin (c16eca)

  355. BTW, Aaron is married to an Asian, not that I find Rupert’s ‘I have family relations to an Asian!’ to be an argument worth countering.

    Go back to PW and snicker at all the trolling you did.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  356. Icy Texan – My point was to get others at this site to recognize the subtle (and I reiterate – subtle, form of bigotry that goes on in the MSM). I would not call anybody at this post racist, and I’m angry that the word has lost its meaning due to its continued abuse by unsavory groups.
    Good God – I read this sight because of my lack of understanding about the law. I know about mathematics and science but struggle with English and Law. Please feel free to call me stupid on those things I know nothing about, but do not imply that I have some hidden agenda to cowardly insult people. I’ll happily give my name and address to those who wish to speak to me.
    I’m here to learn. I don’t know what your site has been going through, but I barely make comments on anybody’s sites. What’s the deal?

    Rupert (ba321b)

  357. in the interests of NOT being accused of posting misleading but factually 100% correct information

    here is the French embassey Toyko section warning

    microsoft translation is this

    Prime Minister François Fillon spoke yesterday to the National Assembly on the situation in the Japan. After having recalled the solidarity of the France in the event that the Japanese people – solidarity manifested by sending a team of 114 personal civil safety and equipment required for assistance to homeless people – the Prime Minister stressed the seriousness of the situation. He proposed that those of our compatriots who are not compelled to remain in Tokyo to return to France or go to the South of Japan now. Finally, he indicated that the Government had asked Air France mobilizing aircraft located in Asia to respond without delay at the request of our nationals. Moreover, always to facilitate the return to France those who wish, two aircraft are en route to the Japan. The number of interested persons, equipment will join the France directly or via rotations by Seoul. First take-offs are expected tomorrow, Thursday, March 17. The interested French are therefore invited to to report as soon as possible to the following address: Need to specify their e-mail address in the e-mail, the composition of the family (name, first name, date of birth, passport numbers) and the preferred airport of departure (Tokyo or Osaka – the decision will be taken by the number of requests)

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  358. Is this site frequently attacked by leftist? I’ve barely posted anything here. Dustin, I’m sorry that my Asian relatives don’t meet your standards. Funny, you don’t seem like a person to adhere to the one drop test. Are my relatives less likely to stand up to hardship, you know, the way a real Asian’s do. Please examine your own heart. I don’t understand why this is such a sore subject.

    Rupert (ba321b)

  359. I’m going to de-lurk again briefly for this.

    Rupert, you say you were commenting on the MSM and not this post. My first comment was to say that you should post your response/lament where you find such comments. You responded with a quote from Aaron from this post, presumably the clearest example you could find. No mention of the MSM then. I call you on your thread-jacking and you continue to discuss racism, insisting that it’s an important topic that needs to be discussed.

    The deal is that you inadvertently or intentionally implied that the population here was full of racists. Then you weaseled after being called on it. If you truly meant to refer to the MSM, why quote Aaron? Doesn’t pass the smell-test.

    Feel free to ask the hosts for a thread on this topic if you really think it’s that important… good luck with that after implying one was a racist. Another alternative, get your own blog and discuss anything you choose. Or, you could continue to comment, build a reputation for honest and fair discussion of the topic at hand, and then get some leeway to go off-topic on occasion.

    Up to you, but I’m done with you for now.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  360. Stash – My only desire was to try and fight the stereotype that Asians reacted better to horrific disasters. I can’t understand why everybody jumped on me, If the authors of this sight are frequently labeled as racists by drive by commentators then I guess I understand the push-back. I have never seen any deliberate hatred towards any group on this sight. I think that we share a lot of beliefs (minus my bad understanding of the law and my very bad use of the English Language.) My Father served in Korea and got very angry when those back home thought Asians didn’t mourn the dead. It broke his heart. Maybe I’m just too old. ——-

    Rupert (ba321b)

  361. Rupert – Swordfish sideways.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  362. There may a 100,000 dead, that’s an rough calculation, systemic damage to the infrastructure, interruptions of supply lines, that’s called the #$%%^$^&*& earthquake and tsunami, yes on many blogs, one gets the racists and plain stupid, some are mobies, some just don’t know any better, from the reports I’m getting, the Japanese people are bearing this tragedy, with dignity and honor, yet the damages to one part of their infrastructure, are being blown right out of proportion, and it’s being done so for a reason, that benefits a certain Hungarian mogul, and his various clients, in the Sinisphere,

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  363. Interesting this poster who has never been here before called Stashiu3 by a familiar nickname, huh? Sounds like one of the usual suspects to me. I could be wrong, of course.

    Simon Jester (7d671c)

  364. Simon,

    thought the same thing…

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  365. Patterico, now that you are recovering from three bottles of Charles Shaw last night, how is releasing that alleged cease and desist letter coming? The one you and (more importantly) Jeff G. never saw?

    If an alleged cease and desist is never mailed, is it really a cease and desist letter?

    Joe (ec2663)

  366. Joe,

    Is Jeff still changing people’s comments?

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  367. Why don’t you go ask him directly Eric?

    Joe (ec2663)

  368. serr8d posted on 3/16 @ 7:35 am
    You know, Patrick Frey the wayward Los Angeles County Deputy District Attorney has really put all his chestnuts in the fire this time. IF a real, live ‘lawyer’ doesn’t come forward, producing actual ‘evidence’ that his ‘client’ sought and obtained this legal device Frey claims he did, THEN Frey is proven a liar and a fraud.

    So, Frey, put up or STFU forever. This is a BFD, your chance to shine. Cards on the table, NOW.

    Joe (ec2663)

  369. Gosh, do you think “Joe” has an agenda? Boy, do I smell OUTLAW.

    Funniest part? I have seen Patrick Frey apologize when he is wrong about things. Mr. Goldstein? Not so much.

    So this “Flight of the Valkyries” business from “Joe the Quoter” seems…contrived.

    Simon Jester (7d671c)

  370. So does this mean that certain lefty bloggers will tell us that there are now 23 hrs and 56 minutes in a day instead of a sidereal day due to this earthquake and tsunami?

    DohBiden (984d23)

  371. I’am referring to a certain post on hot air after the haitian earthquake.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  372. Joe,

    Do you think its okay to change someone’s comments?

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  373. It is the sign of a coward Eric.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  374. Joe,

    I was curious, we have someone who admitted to changing comments, who had the power to ban or delete them, but changed them, then tried to justify doing that, but only when called out.

    Then you are defending him, over here, based upon an error in a headline, he wrote he was ordered by one of his college professors to remove his name from his blog, and Jeff tried to embarass him publically, he published emails of Pats about Frisch – turning her towards him, and there’s much much more, and you come over here and demand – what?

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  375. Jeff enjoys the gadfly role, he stokes you guys up but really all he’s doing is using you. He should perhaps find gainful employment where his unique personality can be shared with the general public.

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  376. Joe, I don’t understand. Patterico claims an anonymous source made an accusation. Jeff G denies it. Without proof, we have no idea what the truth is. It’s possible Jeff is being dishonest, given the fact he is the type to behave ridiculously, but it’s also possible the anonymous person was lying.

    Your hysterical ‘Patterico is a proven fraud’ if no proof comes forward is precisely the garbage we’re used to from you nutcases. Just look at how Jeff G and his goblin commenters have obsessed over Patterico! Tens of thousands of complaints about teaching his child to try to see democrats and republicans as good people (the ‘good man’ crap). I completely understand why someone would choose to ignore Jeff and do their best not to instigate.

    It’s easy to win an argument with Jeff G. It is impossible to get him to stop harassing you afterwards. Look at how he changes comments to hide arguments he can’t answer. Look at this single freakout, over a mild, everyday correction about whether a meltdown occurred. It’s the kind of mistake everyone has made, but it’s not the kind of reaction any healthy person would produce.

    EPWJ is right. Jeff has lost a few arguments, particularly about his incoherent intentionalism screeching (which most people seem to understand a lot better than he does), and now he’s just trolling for attention.

    I do hope to learn more about this cease and desist letter, but I do think Patterico made a mistake disclosing there was one if that was meant to be confidential. Of course, I know I can criticize Patterico without him freaking out about it. It’s pretty clear that someone is insisting on staying out of this argument, and Jeff is exploiting that dishonestly, in hopes of smearing people he can’t compete with intellectually.

    When’s the last time Jeff made a point instead of an accusation?

    Dustin (c16eca)

  377. Also, I seem to recall Jeff G being compared with Charles Johnson.

    That’s the perfect comparison. Who the hell bans Happyfeet? He was a loyal fan of Jeff’s.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  378. The idea that praising Japanese reactions to their catastrophe is “racist” is among the stupidest of the stupid remarks I’ve seen to date.

    Congrats Rupert on reaching a new level of astonishing stupidity.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  379. Pablo posted on 3/16 @ 10:59 am
    Maybe EricPW ought to drag his silly ass over here and behold. Then again, he’s about as sharp as a bowl of Jello, so…

    143. Jeff G. posted on 3/16 @ 11:10 am
    Eric PWJohnson is one of the dumbest people I’ve ever encountered on the internet. Which makes him useful for Pat. The dude eats Frey’s bullshit up and regurgitates it back out in tiny belches of watered-down stink

    Tell me: has Eric PWJohnson gotten on Ace and his crew yet for changing the comments from trolls? Or does the standard of cowardice only exist if you get on the wrong side of the pragmatic internet hall monitor?

    Can Eric PWJohnson show me where I published any emails from Frisch that identified Frey? Does the genius not understand that the Frisch emails to Pat (and others, some of whom sent them to me) had first to exist before I could publish them — with his name and the names of others redacted and his email address removed — so that it makes no sense to suggest I turned Frisch toward Frey?

    Does this jaggoff understand that no former professor has the right to “order” me to remove his name from a factual sentence about me? He’s a professor. Gee, I wonder if I can find a post on Frey’s site where he called out a liberal professor for trying to chill speech… But I guess that would be different, because Frey would be PUBLICLY TRYING TO EMBARRASS — FOR NO GOOD REASON — a total stranger. Right?

    Listen: he’s a moron. And I mean that in the most serious way. He couldn’t get out of his own way while trying to comment here. “Gainful employment”? Why does he care what I do for a living? Does his employer know that this “gainfully employed” moron is spending his days in the comments at Patterico’s Pontifications?

    Don’t hate me because I’m free.

    Joe (2d95b3)

  380. I’m always amazed at how Joe can cut and paste with a d*ck in his mouth.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  381. I think it’s really pathetic that the best Joe can do isn’t to posit that satire sockpuppeting, such as Aceofspades, meant to mock a commenter, is similar to a serious attempt to change comments to suggest someone earnestly argued something they didn’t, or to surgically remove the arguments you don’t want them to be able to make.

    But that isn’t the best Joe can do. The best he can do is cut and paste someone else making that completely unfair comparison.

    Jeff G is a liar. It’s as simple as that. When he alters comments, he shows us he has absolutely no honor, and everything he says has to be verified. Patterico is not always right, but he is honorable and I think kid claims don’t need the same level of verification. If he altered a comment JeffG style, I’d never come back here (but he wouldn’t do it).

    Dustin (c16eca)

  382. Dustin – It’s just an illustration of True Ethical Conservatism and Classical Ethical Liberalism. Jeff G. has become what he professed to hate. The ends, winning an argument, are more important than the means. Privileging someone’s intent or changing someone’s comments – wait for the everyone knows I wasn’t serious rationalization – are the public manifestations of the problem.

    He’s still a heckuva writer. Sometimes the personal animosity and grudges goes way too far.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  383. daley, I know you worked for years on stretching and pilates to be able to do exactly what you describe, but I am not that flexible.

    Where is that C&D letter?

    Joe (2d95b3)

  384. daleyrocks, too many smart people say that Jeff is a talented guy for me to not accept it. I guess I discovered Jeff later, and just find him ridiculously defensive. I asked him a simple question once and he flew into a rage, convincing me he was hiding something (though now I am convinced he wasn’t… he just acts like he’s guilty because he’s a nut).

    He’s an egomaniac who can’t handle a friendly disagreement. And frankly, it brings him so much grief from the nuts that attracts that I don’t resent Jeff. He’s paid for his sins many times over, even if it’s clear he attracts the kooks.

    Frankly, we’re all worried, passionately, about the direction the USA is headed in, and unless we are patriotic to put our egos aside and work together, the agitation that Saul Alinsky designed will keep us from curing the disease. This eruption is but a taste of what the 2012 primary will be like. Even if it seems unrelated.

    We need an unhysterical, sober, friendly talk to last months and restrain all the Jeff Gs and Dan Rs and Mark Ls so we can put together a platform that offers a better choice than tepid spending cuts mixed with a few outspoken yet ineffective champions of major cuts or American exceptionalism or whatever.

    I don’t mean to elevate Jeff to undue relevance, but I do think egomania is the problem with the right. Stupidity and greed is the problem with the left.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  385. daley, I know you worked for years on stretching and pilates to be able to do exactly what you describe, but I am not that flexible.

    Where is that C&D letter?

    Comment by Joe — 3/16/2011 @ 11:44 am

    You’re the one who said that you had proof Patterico was a fraud. The burden of proof is on you, not anyone else.

    Most reasonable people would say an absence of evidence undermines a claim rather than proves fraud, but not you, because you’re a hysterical shill.

    All Patterico said was that someone mentioned one, and it’s clear that this someone doesn’t want Patterico discussing it specifically. That’s awkward, and Patterico probably goofed in mentioning it at all, but you are clearly aware that this situation means Patterico, now more clearly aware this is confidential, is bound by honor not to screw over his friend by posting his emails (or whatever).

    Your test is transparently intended to be impossible to pass. If Patterico breaks confidence, he is dishonorable. If he doesn’t, we don’t get this proof. So it’s Patterico’s word, and you have to take it for what it’s worth. Since you have been completely unable to show Patterico to be dishonest, despite your shrieking that he’s a proven fraud now, I think that’s good enough.

    Remember, this insane thousands of comments and rantings is because Patterico pointing out a factual error that could have been corrected without rudeness.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  386. Joe – I thought you understood I was not talking about your own tiny d*ck. I can see why you would have problems. Apparently according to my spam folder there is help available for people like you apparently and I hear women on TV keep saying it’s not all about size, but I think they’re lying.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  387. Dustin – Michael Savage could use somebody punching up his material. Jeff might fit in well with him. They both have that major self-pity thing going on.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  388. daley, your wife did not think it was so small. She rather enjoyed it. She said she can sleep through it with you. But, hey, let’s not make it personal shall we.

    Dustin: If some makes an allegation, they should be able to back it up. I do not call recall specifically calling Patterico a fraud (if you note above it was Serr8d who suggested that), but if this whole C&D things is a bunch of BS, then either Patterico is lying or being lied to.

    I suspect Patterico misunderstood what someone said, Patterico repeated it without asking them first, and then when called on it by Jeff found out that the person he spoke to did not actually send a C&D letter. Or maybe that person is still lying, making up excuses about the attorney not wanting the alleged C&D letter to be revealed. And Patterico is too embarassed to admit it. But hey, that is my theory. Maybe Patterico will clarify later.

    Joe (2d95b3)

  389. at Pink’s my favorite dog is this one:

    Martha Stewart Dog
    10″ Stretch Dog, relish, onions, bacon
    chopped tomatoes, sauerkraut & sour cream $5.45

    Is very tasty! That’s from the website here. But there’s a problem! That’s not what it’s called anymore when you go get there – they just never updated their menu online. And the kids what make the tasty dogs, they don’t have a lot of “institutional memory” going on bless their hearts. So when you go you have to take the description with you and work back to what that dog is called now.

    You don’t want to get there and be all dogless cause of you don’t know what to order.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  390. Joe’s only wife is an blow-up doll of helen thomas in a bikini.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  391. DohBiden, The only old Lebanese woman I had a thing for was Marlo Thomas (hey when I was a kid I thought she was cute on That Girl). But she is right wing compared to Helen.

    Joe (2d95b3)

  392. There is another possible explanation, Joe. You should consider it. Unless you are still picking lint from your teeth, as I suspect.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  393. “daley, your wife did not think it was so small.”

    Joe – Under Jeff G’s rules he would be threatening to snap your ankles right now for bringing family into the conversation. Luckily ima nice guy and not as easily provoked to violence, but it does show the hypocrisy of putzes like yourself.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  394. She is right wing?

    No wonder you broke it off.

    Ignore joe daley he is not worth it.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  395. Ah, but daley? OUTLAW meets intentionalism allows whatever.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  396. DohBiden – I like it when he loses his sh*t.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  397. forgot the comma sorry.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  398. So where is that C&D letter?

    Joe (2d95b3)

  399. So, Joe, since you are concerned with ethics…

    1. Is it wrong to physically threaten people with whom you disagree politically? Or is it okay some of the time?

    2. Is it wrong to change comments of people you don’t like on your blog—rather than just deleting them? Or is it okay some of the time?

    3. Is it wrong to send multiple e-mail messages to people at work, when they have asked you to stop? Or is it okay some of the time?

    I think that these are far, far more important questions for you to address. Personally, I don’t care what you think or write in response; the questions are for you to think about, when you aren’t posturing here in typical fake tough guy mode.

    But you will shuck and jive. Because you aren’t posting to debate, discuss, or even disagree.

    You are just carrying some pom-poms. But I guess that they are OUTLAW intentionalist sockpuppet-sounding pom-poms, so that must be okay.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  400. Simon, check out #381 above (especially the link in the Pablo post). If you want to respond, I am sure Pablo and Jeff will accomodate your questions.

    3. Is it wrong to send multiple e-mail messages to people at work, when they have asked you to stop? Or is it okay some of the time?

    Who has supposedly done that? That is a false premise. It did not happen. And if you disagree that it did, then please show us all some proof that it happened.

    Joe (2d95b3)

  401. There really is no C&D letter, is there?

    Joe (2d95b3)

  402. But hey, that is my theory. Maybe Patterico will clarify later.

    This obviously contradicts your claim in this thread that you have proof Patterico is a fraud, doesn’t it?

    Yes, you’re right. when you made that accusation, you should have had proof. Now it seems you do not, but won’t apologize. Whatever. You guys are absolutely bonkers and this whole mess is simply anger that Patterico pointed out a pretty hum drum error about a meltdown story.

    Joe: don’t talk about sleeping with other people’s wives. It’s trashy and you’re representing your ‘side’ worse than anyone I’ve ever seen. Leave family out of it.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  403. Well, let’s see, Joe of the Possible Sock Lint.

    There are people who have stated that JG has gone after them based on IPs and such when visiting his site. True or false; how would I know? So if it is all the same, until Mr. Goldstein takes some anger management classes, I’ll stay away. He is one angry man, truth be told.

    Let’s be clear: you are stating that no one has been harassed by folks at PW at work? Just hold on, before you play slip and slide with facts. If you were given evidence that someone at PW had done exactly that, would you then go on record criticizing them? Hypothetically speaking?

    I think a “yes” or “no” would suffice. But, of course, you will play games with that question.

    No surprise there.

    But, in the final analysis, you are just playing troll here. It’s fooling no one.

    You may find that holding pom-poms can be tiresome, eventually. Or perhaps you live for it. Time will tell.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  404. Keep in mind, Dustin, that some folks at PW go just a little bit crazy when their families are brought into arguments (which I entirely understand, leaving out threats of violence in response). But, I believe we will discover that that particular sentiment depends entirely on who is trashing a family member. It’s okay when someone you like does it.

    Isn’t that so, Joe? Or you could apologize. Like that will happen. OUTLAWS don’t apologize.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  405. why aren’t the douchebag G7 countries meeting to figure out how to help the Japanese people?

    (to say nothing of the Libyans, which is the fashion)

    Maybe tax-cheat Timmy and pals can take a moment to ponder the question of how long people will want to hold the dollar of a broke-ass America renowned for cowardice and fecklessness?

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  406. Dustin, see my response @ #390. If you keep asking the same question, you will get the same response.

    As far as the wife comment, it was a joke in response to daleyrock’s unprovoked personal attack. But hey, daley responded to it on his own just fine.

    Simon Jester: No, I do not think it is ok, as a general proposition, to send harrassing emails to someone at work over something that has nothing to do with that work. I certainly have not done it. But it is a broad question and it really depends on the context. Show me an example and I might be able to respond more to your inquiry.

    And btw, where is that alleged C&D letter?

    Joe (2d95b3)

  407. It would be nice, wouldn’t it, Mr. Feets.

    The least the President could do is donate his greens fees.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  408. I agree with happy. We should be helping the Libyan freedom fighters and the Japanese.

    Joe (2d95b3)

  409. You know, Joe, I have a new name for you: Lord of the Dance.

    Tap dance.

    You know what I am talking about. I can’t wait for daley to start “joking” with you.

    Seems to me that intentionalism suggests other interpretations.

    Such a troll, dude.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  410. it’s horrifically shameful Mr. Jester… here is all what ABC News has to report with respect to American efforts

    To date there have been 113 helicopter missions and 125 fixed wing missions. More than 129,000 pounds of water and 4,200 pounds of food have been delivered.

    The Department of Energy and Nuclear Regulatory Commission has sent teams of U.S. experts to assess the nuclear situation.

    U.S. aid to Japan has reached nearly $5.9 million, with total planned assistance amounting to $8 million. USAID says the primary humanitarian needs on the ground remain food, safe drinking water, blankets, medical supplies, fuel, and sanitation infrastructure.

    113 helicopter missions in how many days? A couple tons of food?

    That’s not even funny.

    These people have been our friends and allies and we love them and they are suffering.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  411. It’s much more important, Mr. Feets, to run and hide in Madison…than to help people. Right?

    I hear the weather is nice in Brazil. You?

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  412. it’s not snowing on hungry people’s heads there that’s for sure

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  413. here is the awesome video about the spendings

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  414. I think Dustin has a good point that, not having cleared the release of this information with the recipient, I should have said nothing. It was prompted by anger over the incredible situation of being called a stalker by someone who (I was told) had engaged in his own pattern of e-mail harassment. But 1) actions taken out of anger are never a good idea, and 2) I messed up by mentioning something I had not been given the green light to mention.

    Frankly, I never expected Jeff to deny it, and consequently had no idea he would make such a federal case out of it, which puts my friend in an awkward position, since he wasn’t looking to re-escalate the situation, and my comment did that.

    The bottom line is that my correspondent and his lawyer are both irritated with me, with some justification, and say they will release everything if Jeff writes him again, in violation of the cease and desist. Otherwise, all they care about is that the harassment not resume, which means not releasing anything as long as he doesn’t contact the person again.

    It’s quite frustrating to me, but then again, it’s my fault for saying something without having obtained permission to release the proof.

    All I can say is I believe the person who told me this, an I suspect Jeff knows exactly what I’m talking about when I reference his late night rants. At least some of named me, I’m told. Since Jeff doesn’t care about me and doesn’t e-mail anyone about me (does anyone believe that? What did you e-mail RSM about recently? OK then), that should narrow it right down.

    All he has to do is e-mail anyone he e-mailed about me this year and everything gets published. Or, since he has the e-mails, he can publish them himself.

    That’s all I can do.

    Patterico (e24013)

  415. Jeff posting walls of text to try and cover for the fact that he changed people’s comments. He also uses Ace of Spades changing of comments as justification. See Ace does it, so get off my back.

    Ummm, Jeff, why do you change people’s comments? Why did you physicaly threaten Scott (not a smart move there just as a warning).

    Maybe its time for him to get a job, having to work for a living seems to temper people alittle after awhile

    EricPWJohnson (b12494)

  416. This is one of the people, I was referencing earlier, about the larger issues;

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  417. What I was referring to, earlier as to how memes substitute truth;

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  418. Simon – Tap Dance Joe does not have the chops to answer your questions about changing comments. Answering them with integrity would get him in trouble with Jeff.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  419. daleyrocks, see my response at #390. Seriously, the link is there. Go follow it and respond to Jeff and Pablo directly on the issue. I do not buy it happened the way you are portraying it (certainly less than Ace doing it to mock trolls at his site).

    What do you think of the ethics of making up a story about an imaginary friend, an imaginary lawyer and an imaginary C&D letter?

    Joe (ec2663)

  420. and then the goat says “I think you can get an ointment for that”

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  421. Did “Joe” actually use the term “trolls”?

    Intentionalist Comedy Hour.

    Simon Jester (4c7374)

  422. Or Joe? Is it like making up a new fake name to troll a site?

    Simon Jester (4c7374)

  423. “daleyrocks, see my response at #390.”

    Joe – I reiterate my comment at 421. I don’t care about #390.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  424. Joe – #390 does not address altering comments.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  425. Rupert squiggled: My only desire was to try and fight the stereotype that Asians reacted better to horrific disasters

    — Yes. Those Asians must be positively apoplectic at being characterized as ‘reacting better’. Quick, dispatch the competence-grief counselors!!!

    Icy Texan (361f6c)

  426. Daley, I think I know who “Joe” is, don’t you?

    Simon Jester (4c7374)

  427. Joe is Joe he’s never not Joe he’s consistently Joe Joe Joe

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  428. daley, you are correct. My bad. #381. This is for you. Respond directly to Pablo and JeffG on it.

    And this for you all. For the letter that probably never got drafted, let alone sent.

    Joe (ec2663)

  429. happy, i thought u would appreciate my musical choices.

    Joe (ec2663)

  430. I like the first one but it’s not a very good clip. But thank you I’m as starved for new musics as Japan is for a helping hand from their American friends.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  431. Joe, I’d ask how you are now the expert.

    but I don’t give a crap what your troll story is.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  432. Quick where is the asian Al Sharpton when you need him?

    DohBiden (984d23)

  433. Joe, all you have to do is click the links in that post to see hay a pack of lies it is.

    Just like Goldstein lies in his latest 5000 word screed when he says I know he had someone impersonate him on his site. Bullshit. If that happened, he deleted the comment before I ever saw it. All I saw was his threat to “fucking kill” someone. It appeared to be in response to someone NOT posting as Goldstein saying “we’ve just now heard about your son’s bone cancer” or some asshole thing like that.

    Nobody’s mind is changed by all this. What I said, limited as it was, was the truth. I was told the story about his stalking and I believed it. I can’t prove it and never claimed I could. But I still do believe it, because the details rang true, and because I think Goldstein is a liar and is lying about who he wrote. Just like he lie about my seeing someone impersonate him on his site.

    The end.

    Patterico (e24013)

  434. “Respond directly to Pablo and JeffG on it.”

    Joe – Simon asked you the questions about altering comments, not Pablo or Jeff. As I predicted, you don’t have the chops or integrity to answer.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  435. daleyrocks:

    Deleting comments is fine.

    Selective deleting is fine, to a point.

    Satiring comments is fine (ala Ace).

    I do not accept JeffG did what Patterico accused him of, but I would suggest if you disagree bring that up to Pablo and JeffG.

    What I know is Patterico raised this whole C&D issue last night and here we are now. No C&D letter. And it is just, well Jeff changed some comments in the past, so there.

    We get that is your excuse.

    Joe (ec2663)

  436. I feel bad for the children of the wisconsin union whores… what’s it like to grow up knowing your mom and dad is a useless ignorant wisconsin leechthug cop or teacher?

    The scars are deep and there’s just no telling if they’ll ever heal. Maybe some lucky kids will be able to grow up with some self-respect, but it’s gonna take a village of non union whores to help them.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  437. I just want a straight-up yea or nea.

    Is it time to resort to virgin sacrifice at the volcano?

    Steve (49173f)

  438. it’s only a question of how many

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  439. And I’ve been hoarding them like there’s no tomorrow.

    According to CNN there will be no tomorrow.

    I’m tempted to believe my remaining hours would be best used rendering them unfit for sacrificial purposes.

    Steve (49173f)

  440. “Frey said I was sent a cease and desist order.” No, I never said “order” and, more importantly, I never said I knew it was sent. Just that I was TOLD it was and I believed it. Still do.

    Overstating my claim is a tactic designed to make my inability to prove it look like evidence I am lying. I am telling the truth. This is what I have been told. Do not misrepresent what I said as a rhetorical game.

    By the way, the person in question is not on that list he published of people he said he has e-mailed.

    I was told the story by someone I believe. He does not want to get involved because the e-mails he got before had his wife on edge to the point where he turned to a lawyer. The fact that I cannot produce e-mail I never saw and never claimed to have seen does not mean that I was not told what I was told. All Jeff’s bluster and overstatements notwithstanding.

    Patterico (e24013)

  441. It’s quite amazing that a guy who claims he never reads my site writes thousands of words every time I mention him in a comment here.

    Patterico (e24013)

  442. I would add, Patterico, that “satire” is an ancient way of threatening a person, then when called on it, wriggling away.

    It must be some intentionist OUTLAW thing.

    Simon Jester (4c7374)

  443. As for the last, Patterico, Mr. Goldstein has a number of cut and paste pals, ready to assist him. Right? He doesn’t read your site. They do.

    Simon Jester (4c7374)

  444. Right, Simon. And when he writes RSM:

    Here you go. New post.

    Just keep Frey off of my uterus.

    You can tell he never thinks about me! According to his post tonight, that’s a quote from an e-mail he sent RSM. It relates to an exchange Little Miss Attila and RSM had about feminism.

    An exchange about which I said NOT ONE WORD.

    Yet he never reads me or thinks about me.

    Trying to convince himself, you think?

    Me too.

    Patterico (e24013)

  445. Jeff sez he’ll correct on it being a letter and not an order that I was told was sent. And adds:

    And in fact I’m pretty sure I used “letter” every other time

    I’m more than “pretty sure” you have said order before this post. I’m positive.

    One of your commenters even counted up the relative number of times you used each word. Because I had already called you on this.

    “I don’t send many unsolicited emails and I have not received any cease and desist orders.”


    “Well, I’ve got a DDA suggesting in public that I’m under some sort of cease and desist order …”

    I’m “pretty sure” you’re full of it. Again, overstating the claim to make it easier to falsely debunk it. Your M.O.

    Patterico (e24013)

  446. “I do not accept JeffG did what Patterico accused him”

    Joe – You were not asked about that. Simon asked:

    “2. Is it wrong to change comments of people you don’t like on your blog—rather than just deleting them? Or is it okay some of the time?”

    I know you don’t want Jeff to get mad at you and that you have trouble thinking for yourself, but giving straight answers to those questions does not require you to be a member of Mensa.

    Your tap dancing monkey routine continues to amuse.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  447. Patterico – I hate to think how many words Jeff would write if he did care what you said or if he did obsess about you.



    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  448. And you suggest, Jeff, I’m claiming that I’m “holding back” these emails. Absurd. I never said I had them. I never said I saw them. Your dishonest suggestion otherwise is in keeping with your distortion of this whole matter, and indeed, is sadly chaacteristic of your longstanding pattern of dishonesty.

    Patterico (e24013)

  449. He’s gone Greenwald?

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  450. daley,

    Rarely has a man been so supremely above the fray as this Goldstein fellow. As he will assure us again tomorrow in another 10,000 word post about me.

    Patterico (e24013)

  451. Daley, he doesn’t need to pick lint out of his teeth. He has a group of CAPAs all ready to give him cover.

    Simon Jester (4c7374)

  452. Joe – Under Jeff G’s rules he would be threatening to snap your ankles right now for bringing family into the conversation.

    Pfft. You know full good and well that ankle-snapping comes BEFORE the family gets mentioned…

    Not that JD would admit that…

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  453. The idea that praising Japanese reactions to their catastrophe is “racist” is among the stupidest of the stupid remarks I’ve seen to date.

    Congrats Rupert on reaching a new level of astonishing stupidity.


    I think the general idea is that the “anti-racist” religion takes it as a dogma that while individuals within each race, culture, nation, etc. vary wildly, all races, etc., as sets are exactly the same, containing within them the same range of variations, in the same proportions. Thus it is invalid to say anything at all about a race, culture, nation, etc. This is, of course, absurd on its face. Races, cultures, nations, etc. are useful abstractions, they represent very real differences between people, and there certainly are racial, cultural, and national traits that can be meaningfully discussed. And if that’s racism then racism is correct and all rational people should be racists.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  454. Besides: I’m SAYING he’s lying — or being punked — and I thought I was quite upfront about that. So this suggestion of dark machinations on my part to suggest he’s lying would be redundant on my part, and so is just Frey’s lame attempt to get you to take your eye off the face card.

    Is Goldstein this dumb or this dishonest? I’m going with the latter. I never said Goldstein overstated my claim to “suggest” I’m lying. I’m saying, having alleged that I may be lying, he seeks to trump up evidence of my dishonesty — by suggesting I have the ability to release something I have no ability to release.

    There’s all this “put up or shut up” talk there, as if my failure to publish what I don’t have is somehow evidence that I wasn’t told what I was told. That argument is facilitated by his dishonest overstatement of my original claim.

    All I ever said is that I was told the story and believed it. Which I was — and did, and do.

    Patterico (144c7d)

  455. The guy who told me all this, for what it’s worth, says he is torn between the desire to prove Jeff a liar and the imperative not to re-engage and upset his wife and others. Frustratingly for me, he is going with the latter, which is understandable.

    If he published them it would probably make no difference to anyone anyway. Jeff would just deny that he sent them, and not one person over there would change their mind.

    I’d still release them anyway if I could. But I can’t. And, his lying aside, I never said I could.

    There’s really nothing more to be said.

    Patterico (144c7d)

  456. Jeff G. posted on 3/17 @ 7:21 am
    I’m “pretty sure” you’re full of it. Again, overstating the claim to make it easier to falsely debunk it. Your M.O.

    Hey. Counselor. You falsely accused me in public. Again. You should be begging my forgiveness, not keeping it up.

    But you can’t. Your pride is so hurt that you just can’t do it. You LIED about me. And you’re hiding behind some unnamed person to protect yourself. Because not only are you a liar, but you are a weasel and a coward.

    I’ve been more than patient with your bullshit. No more.

    Joe (ec2663)

  457. Right, and Goldstein was stalking Fritz, sure. That makes perfect sense. Meanwhile, they are doing the best to reenact that Golden Oldie; ‘the China Syndrome’ almost sidestepping the quake in the process. In other news, one must only cut 6 billion, or else be labeled an extremists.

    Just like last fall there was an unseemly piling on O’donnell, not only against her a candidate, heaven forbid, but as a human being, To go along the Sorosphere’s Operation Demolish, Huffington Post, ThinkProgress, TPM, et al. It didn’t matter that she was right on all of the issues, in fact that made it worse. Maybe if she had been less honest, about where she came from, and why she chose the path she chose, But no it was time to pull out the Zoominfo, to validate some grudge match

    It was necessary to prove her corrupt, yet you didn’t seem to notice when the left pulled the same trick against Whitman, didn’t matter what the facts were. Or in Conneticutt, when they slimed their way to putting Blumenthal in, To replace FOA Dodd now heading the MPAA. Now the fact that both Coons and Blumenthal have proven to be non entitiesdoesn’t matter, but they are reliable rubber stamps, and is the twit who gave NRC chairmanJaczo, his start, Murkowski proved the bonafides of those who finagled the rules to put her back in office, abetting the PP fraud that Lila Rose has uncovered. It was neessary to slime up Miller, because lord knows we need fewer
    people willing to challenge the status quo.

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  458. Jeff now moves from saying I either lied or was punked to simply saying I lied. And tells me to “own” the allegation.

    I’m owning it, son. I was told what I was told. I’m only owning the part I said, though, and not the exaggerated version you made up, wherein I am holding all the emails and could release them if I want.

    I’m dead convinced you know exactly who told me all this; you sent him those e-mails; and edited his name off the list of recipients.

    Patterico (144c7d)

  459. we need to do a LOT more for our Japanese friends this isn’t one of those things where you just go through the motions this is one of those things where you go above and beyond

    chop chop America

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  460. I think that Joe isn’t just a tapdance artist. He is apparently a PR guy; typing up things for other people. CAP, all the way.

    Mr. Feet, thank you for bringing up an issue that is not only the topic of this thread, but should make people like Joe quite ashamed.

    Hopefully, we can find some charity sources to contribute to that don’t result in a million phone calls and letters; the Red Cross often does a good job.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  461. yes the Red Cross will have a huge role to play in coming weeks and months but right now we need the US military to get in fast and stabilize the situation with foozle and medicines and water and places for people to go to the baffroom and most of all to help people feel safe and secure and cared for

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  462. Thanks Happyfeet for the effort to remember what’s important.

    Joe, no one is going to PW for obvious reasons.

    Jeff, I guess you’re reading the thread. Put your ego on pause and consider that the reason you are able to play this ‘prove I did that’ game is because someone’s family is scared of your harassment resuming, and a man is pressed between the needs of his family vs the needs of blog drama (and you have calculated this man is not an idiot, so you can play ‘prove it!’ all day).

    Just a few weeks ago, Aaron emailed to mention he thought perhaps you were burying the hatchet and moving on. I replied that I was not hopeful, but that would be great. The folks here do not want a blog war, and it’s not because we’re ‘losing’. It’s because this is ugly for everyone.

    I just wanted to say that if you actually do know who sent you this c/d, you need to write him right now and ask him to forward your apology to his family for this BS.

    You got the meltdown headline wrong, should have noted the error. People will disagree with your opinions. You can respond sanely or ignore it. If you can’t blog like that, you probably need some perspective on life.

    Again, my apologies to the people, like Happyfeet, who would rather talk about something more significant.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  463. Also, happyfeet’s right.

    I served in Korea, and I know that an invasion from North Korea is not feasible in March because of the thawed rice paddies. We do need counter artillery and air strike capabilities, but there are tens of thousands of troops and amazing logistical capabilities nearby.

    Perhaps this kind of thing wouldn’t help Japan, but I sure hope we do all we can for them. I’ve seen empty fields become a place producing thousands of meals in only a few hours.

    As usual, there is a crisis and I’m worried that Obama is having difficulty acting.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  464. here is a fresh update on US relief efforts

    With the arrival of three more ships to the massive humanitarian mission, there were 17,000 sailors and Marines afloat on 14 vessels in waters off Japan. Several thousand Army and Air Force service members already stationed at U.S. bases in Japan have also been mobilized for the relief efforts.

    Airmen have been flying search and rescue missions and operating Global Hawk drones and U-2 reconnaissance planes to help the Japanese assess damage from the disasters. The operation is fraught with challenges — mainly, figuring out how to continue to provide help amid some low-level releases of radiation from the facility, which officials fear could be facing a meltdown.

    Weather also temporarily hampered some relief plans Wednesday. Pilots couldn’t fly helicopters off the deck of aircraft carrier Ronald Reagan until late afternoon because of poor visibility. The 7th Fleet said 15 flights with relief supplies were launched from the eight-ship carrier group, about half as many as the 29 flights reported the previous day to deliver food, water, blankets and other supplies.*

    so far you will forgive me for not being particularly impressed

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  465. An interesting comment on Derek Lowe’s blog:

    I’m a retired nuclear engineer who was trained to operate the GE Mk I reactor (the Japanese type) by TVA. I spent 2 years after the ’75 fire crawling all over the Unit 1 and 2 reactor systems at Browns Ferry nuclear plant (also a Mk I). I spent three years working the accident at Three Mile Island. My specialty is high range nuclear instrumentation and its calibration.

    We’re playing in my back yard now :-)

    If I lived downwind of of the Japanese reactors I would NOT be dosing with KI. Why? Because there has been no release of I-131 that matters and there probably won’t be.

    What we found at TMI was that the radioiodine and radiocesium chemically combined to form the solid cesium iodide. This chemical dissolved in the water inside the containment where it stayed. So instead of the iodine being a volatile gas, it became a harmless (outside the containment) compound.

    The wildly varying radiation readings on the ground around the plant tell me that they’re measuring noble gas emissions. The isotopes of xenon and krypton. The problem is, these isotopes being gases, they get INSIDE the instruments and cause false high readings. The instruments are calibrated to measure radiation coming from outside the instrument.

    That was a problem at TMI and it’s a problem here. In designing radiation monitors capable of measuring the noble gas activity inside the reactor building, I ran into the same problem. The gases are heavy and settle out and they cling to things, especially polymers.

    I don’t have any special insider contacts anymore but from filtering through the horrendous mass media coverage and information from some industry sites, I haven’t seen anything to be worried about. Yes, this is an unmitigated disaster to the utility company just like TMI was to GPU. But unless something almost inconceivable goes wrong in the next few days, the impact to the world outside the plant boundary will be nil.

    By the way, the original post on which this comment appears is a good piece by Derek Lowe on why you should not be dosing yourself with potassium iodide.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  466. Dustin: I can’t argue with what you have written. If nk was around, he could surely come up with a Greek myth showing how a person can become what they claim to despise very easily. I hope all this nonsense stops.

    Mr. Feet: I think that the military can, does, and will do a admirable job of helping in Japan…given the resources they have been given.

    It makes me think that, given the uncertainties of the world, we need leaders with “real world” experience (even experience with crises) instead of silly things like community organizing (I mean, silly in the fact of disasters; remember how GWB was pilloried over this…we’ll see if the same takes place for BO).

    But I guess that makes me a racist.

    Still, I know who is better at helping people following a disaster. And hopefully, so do voters.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  467. SPQR: nice post. I have done my share of work with isotopes, and once had a scare with a G-M probe that was contaminated—giving false high readings. My dosimeter was clear, though.

    Sort of focuses the mind, I must say.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  468. holy crap, we are up to almost 500 comments. what are we arguing about?

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  469. I dunno Aaron.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  470. Trolls be rolling and hatin’

    SPQR (26be8b)

  471. Joe, the Cut and Paste Assistant. It’s important work.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  472. Tryin to catch me ridin dirty.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  473. DohBiden, it’s much more white ‘n nerdy for them, I think.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  474. Helen of Troy – The face that launched 1,000 ships

    Patterico – Three words that launched 50,000 words from a disinterested, unobsessed, above the fray blogger.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  475. As Patterico noted, it’s amazing indeed that Jeff doesn’t read these threads, given his ability to react instantly to them, whether or not Joe is wearing out his ctrl+V.

    Jeff asked me a question, but Jeff knows I cannot answer it at PW because of Jeff’s bizarre behavior with those who don’t agree with Jeff.

    So I’ll answer it here. Some people do not want to be harassed by internet cranks. Some people interpret Jeff’s “I will break your ankles.” “I will leave you mewling on the ground.” “Let’s argue in person… I’ll bring a rope.” comments to be intimidating and threatening.

    If someone has managed to get an internet crank quiet, they may not want to resume that harassment by interacting in any way with Jeff G, whom we have all seen harass and threaten people (frankly, making his defense very pathetic… he is well known to be much worse than the extremely mild ‘I got a letter telling me to stop’ would prove, anyway).

    Jeff can pretend he hasn’t already harmed people, but threatening people, harassing them, obsessing… some people think that alone is itself a harm.

    Personally, I don’t know if the C/D is real. I don’t know who told Patterico they sent Jeff one, so I don’t know if he’s been duped. I do know Patterico is honest.

    Does that answer the question for egomanical Jeff G? Of course not. Even releasing the letter wouldn’t. He’d deny it was authentic. Proving it was authentic wouldn’t, because he’d pretend it was wrong to send the letter in the first place in reaction to emails (or whatever).

    It is easy to win an argument with Jeff G. I’ve seen it many times, especially with reference to intentionalism, which Jeff’s boastful lashing out is always in proportion to his faulty reasoning about a simple concept.

    Jeff, if you really have never received a C/D from someone you sent a bunch of emails to, I apologize (as I do assume you did). If you did get one, understand that you are simply another version of the sort of internet slimeball that gave your family grief. Even if in your mind your internet drama screaming is nothing to be alarmed about, you may have caused someone’s spouse a lot of worry, and a gentleman would apologize to them (not in some dramatic blog post, but in a humble email to whoever the hell this is about).

    And finally: this is a lame way to react to the fact you got the meltdown story wrong. I’m sure you will be screaming about it for years, too, while also acting bemused that anyone like me would pay attention to you.

    This is an ugly way to handle blogging, Jeff. Patterico has made a lot of people mad with minor or serious corrections. You are not a serious aspect of his blog, but he seems to shadow over your entire existence, and that is a waste of your talents.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  476. BTW, my quotes in the last comment are paraphrases from memory. I’m sure they are not perfect, and I’m sure many think some of them are not serious. In fact they are the kind of ancient threatening crap I said to people (in person) when I was a dumber, younger, man, and I do not think they deserve to be dwelled on.

    However, Jeff asked why someone would be intimidated into not wanting their spouse to interact with Jeff, and that’s exactly why. Jeff is a bully internet tough guy, and some people are affected by that, even if it’s easy for me to tell them not to be.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  477. Don’t worry, Dustin. “Joe” will be here shortly to carry some water.

    As you say, this is all silly. As Mr. Feets has made clear: there are better ways, even for intentionalist OUTLAWS, to spend their time and effort.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  478. you know reading back to the original jeff g. commenter who seemed to kick it up, let me say one thing.

    there are alot of stories out there. we are flooded with information. this is like a week-long version of the gabby giffords story where we keep hearing updates flying around and we have to keep track of things.

    so there were always alot of contradictory accounts. so i would wait a bit and get some confirmation. my count of three reactors in meltdown was based on two accounts and i felt it reached a little solidity.

    was i perhaps quick to think the worst? its possible. but my instinct from the beginning was that we were not being told how bad it is, and subsequent stories verified it. the people running the plant and the government of japan have lost all credibility with sunshiney claims.

    i do not have a specifically anti-nuke agenda in this. i didn’t have any agenda. if you go back to the original post my reason for watching this so closely was because of my wife’s personal connection to that country.

    i won’t say that this hasn’t made me wonder about nuclear technology. but believe it or not, i am trying to be led by the evidence, not marshalling the evidence with a pre-manufactured answer. and to the extent i have looked at this with pessimism, it was because from the start i had a bad, bad feeling about the reactors.

    And bluntly that gut feeling has been vindicated. it is at least as bad as i feared.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  479. Aaron:

    Well, the first thing to do is check these two sites:

    And I liked this:

    As for the rest of this nonsense, all the “tough guy” talk goes to this kind of place:

    Funny. I keep hearing how important civility is. And here we are, bickering with one another.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  480. I keep hearing how important civility is. And here we are, bickering with one another.

    Personally, I refuse to extend civility to someone who threatens me because I have disagreed with him, not will I extend it to those who stand by such a person.

    Scott Jacobs (176843)

  481. Simon

    i’ll tell you simon, i am deeply confused. one person says its not so bad. and then someone else says, “no, he’s wrong.” its really hard to know who is right.

    but this reactor situation should not have gone this far.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  482. I’m not saying it’s not bad. I am saying the tsunami was much, much, much worse. People are funny about radiation issues, and they cannot process “relative risk” (which is why the Popular Mechanics article helps).

    My favorite example? When I was a kid, there was a magazine photograph of a woman holding up a sign reading “NUCLEAR POWER CAUSES CANCER.”

    She is smoking a cigaret in the photo.

    But no, I don’t think we are getting the whole story, which is why it is good we are now getting involved over there.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  483. Reports of injuries at Fukushima plants

    I would be very concerned if I lived in close proximity to these plants. I would be far more concerned if I or a family member or friend worked at these plants. And I remain generally concerned for those who have to deal with these plants, even if I do not know them. But I think the risks of injury or harm to people in the United States are miniscule.

    Joe (2d95b3)

  484. Or as the old TMI bumpersticker goes: Jane Fonda Killed More Americans Than Nuclear Energy Ever Did.

    Joe (2d95b3)

  485. “but he seems to shadow over your entire existence, and that is a waste of your talents.”

    Dustin – The above is a patently false assertion about Jeff G. Jeff G. does not read this blog, has no interest in what Patterico writes and is not obsessed with the man. He will write 10,000 words on a daily basis to tell you the same thing, but I just saved him the trouble.

    Ima giver that way. He can thank me later.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  486. I dunno. I think this looks pretty bad for you, Patterico. If I were to say:

    “I have it on good authority that Patrick Frey likes to pee in the coffee pot at work. I’m not allowed to say how I know this, but if Patrick will only pee in the coffee pot at work one more time on video, then all of the proof will come out.”

    You’d think I was an idiot, right? Well, it kind of sounds like that’s what you’re saying about Jeff Goldstein. To save face, you really have to either give proof, or stop making the claim that you are correct, yet you can’t or won’t substantiate it, and Jeff is still the bad guy.

    There’s only two choices for a respectable person at this point.

    – I can prove what I say about Mr. Goldstein, and here it is!
    – I cannot prove what I say about Mr. Goldstein, and I apologize.

    If there’s a third option, I’d like to hear it. But I can say quite confidently that the tack you are taking (accusations without any evidence) would even be scorned by the LA Times… most of the time.

    Kevin (bdcaca)

  487. Kevin,

    Patterico has simply said that someone told him about this c/d.

    So your hypo is a little wrong. It’s more like you saying you heard from a friend that Patterico did X. That’s hearsay, with all the attendant flaws. Patterico has already noted he cannot prove this, and explained it. So no, he doesn’t look like an idiot, since his explanation makes a lot of sense.

    Remember, this is about Jeff G, the guy who screams and threatens to break ankles and all that. Jeff G also behaves extremely dishonestly, sinking all the way to faking his opponents arguments in order to make them easier to defeat.

    So he has absolutely no credibility. All we have is the (admittedly hearsay) claim that Patterico was told something about someone.

    The details that Patterico is giving are not consistent with Patterico apologizing, even though he cannot prove that Jeff has (YET AGAIN) behaved in a way meant to intimidate those he disagrees with. In fact, it’s quite the contrary… if it’s true that Jeff knows who sent this letter and is happily enjoying the silence Jeff has caused, then it’s Jeff who owes the apologies.

    But since Patterico can’t prove anything, and Jeff is proven very dishonest (thus his denial means nothing to reasonable people), it’s simply a matter of personal honor. For Jeff, if he has ever received a cease and desist letter, period, he is yet again behaving terribly. For Patterico, if he has not been informed by anyone that such a letter was sent, same.

    The latter is incredibly unlikely, and you and I both know it.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  488. I have it on good authority that Kevin buggers goats and has not read this thread. I cannot tell you how I know those things.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  489. Here is another question for people like Kevin.

    Has Mr. Goldstein ever apologized for anything he has done on his website? Perhaps he has, when he puts aside the odd tough guy pose. But I sure cannot recall many instances of that.

    Has Mr. Goldstein ever said he was wrong about anything? Again, perhaps he has.

    The fact is, I have seen Patterico do both of these things, in an adult fashion, when has needed to do so.

    Folks like Kevin might think on that.

    But they won’t. It’s not OUTLAW.

    Simon Jester (a542a5)

  490. Thanks for making my point, daley! I’m not entirely sure how you knew that I bugger the occasional goat, but you can’t prove it, so making the unproven claim makes you look worse than it does me. And apparently I bugger goats! That’s pretty bad.


    Kevin (bdcaca)

  491. Mr. Jester, those seem like good questions for after this issue is resolved. Why complicate the issue? But I’ll answer, since you asked.

    Has Mr. Goldstein ever said he was wrong about anything? Again, perhaps he has.
    I have no idea :(.

    The fact is, I have seen Patterico do both of these things, in an adult fashion, when has needed to do so.
    Well, not yet, in this case. But I hope that he does, or offers proof for his accusation. This will be resolved quickly either way he goes with it. As a fan of the conservative blogosphere in general, either option he takes would make me quite happy. Letting this kind of crap fester does not help us, imo.

    Kevin (bdcaca)

  492. Kevin,

    This isn’t about who looks worse. This is about being decent human beings. Jeff acts like a jerk quite often, altering comments (not like Ace satire, but like Let’s Fake Their Argument Into Something I Can Win), threatening to break ankles, etc. Patterico’s friend claims that Jeff harassed him to the point where the friend sent a C/D.

    I have a hard time seeing why Patterico would lie about that. You claim he has to prove it happened, but Patterico never said he had proof. He simply related a story he believes without deception.

    But to you, this is all about whether or not Jeff looks good. I think that’s bizarre, even without the fact that Jeff threatens people he disagrees with and is proven extremely dishonest. He looks terrible, pal.

    Yes, the next 150 PW kooks who point out Patterico cannot prove this story is accurate will all be correct, but it’s actually a very weak story compared to what’s already proven about this obsessed weirdo.

    If you think it’s unacceptable to relate stories you cannot prove, then surely you are furious with Jeff G. After all, he posted Patterico’s professional name and job next to an accusation of antisemitism. He has never attempted to prove this charge is accurate, but instead altered countless posts (the ones with higher google ratings) to google bomb the accusation about Patterico.

    He did this in order to intimidate Patterico. He is obviously an internet crank who behaves in an awful fashion. I totally believe the story Patterico has related from his friend, and I suspect you idiots are falling for a rope a dope.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  493. Let me clarify… I doubt Patterico and his friend conspired to get Jeff to deny this story. It’s just not worth anyone’s time that Jeff acted like a jerk and someone asked him to stop, consider what we already know.

    I do suspect that the more Jeff G’s kook squad pushes the issue, the more likely it is that we will have a resolution to this story. Sure… some of the kooks will claim the proof isn’t good enough.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  494. Ah, more delightful semi-trollery. Even with emoticons!

    Isn’t it interesting, Dustin, how readily someone believes in the honesty of one person and the dishonesty of another—without any data to back it up?

    This was my favorite comment:

    “…Letting this kind of crap fester does not help us, imo…”

    Indeed. So why help the festering? Unless the fighting and such is the point?

    I would feel better if this person swore up and down that Mr. Goldstein had always been pure as Colorado snow in his dealings on the internet. Always patient and polite and willing to treat people fairly. But he knows—knows—that Mr. Goldstein has, um, acted out from time to time.

    No, this is all from people who like to fight, and to want to escalate issues. I guess it is tough and OUTLAW and everything.

    Simon Jester (a542a5)

  495. Kevin the Goat Buggerer – If you read comments above, your questions have already been answered, but you already knew that. You know the problem, bugger just one goat, and they call you………

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  496. [Dustin]
    if it’s true that Jeff knows who sent this letter and is happily enjoying the silence Jeff has caused, then it’s Jeff who owes the apologies.

    But since Patterico can’t prove anything, and Jeff is proven very dishonest (thus his denial means nothing to reasonable people), it’s simply a matter of personal honor.

    If it’s true that Jeff received this letter, he is certainly the dishonest one. But since Patrick can’t prove anything, Jeff is NOT proven ‘very dishonest’. In fact, it looks like Patrick is the dishonest one (on the surface, without knowledge of the facts).

    If you think it’s unacceptable to relate stories you cannot prove, then surely you are furious with Jeff G. After all, he posted Patterico’s professional name and job next to an accusation of antisemitism.

    That sounds horrible. But I don’t know the specifics, as I’m an off and on viewer of these sites, so I miss a lot. I am not furious at either Jeff or Patrick. I just think it would be best if this matter were resolved as quickly and amenably as possible, so they can both go back to doing what they do best. Bashing liberals in their own ways :).

    Kevin (bdcaca)

  497. “But since Patrick can’t prove anything, Jeff is NOT proven ‘very dishonest’. ”

    Are you being deliberately obtuse?

    I already granted that it hasn’t been proven that Jeff is lying about his denial of the C/D. He has been proven dishonest IN A DIFFERENT CASE and therefore I do not trust his denial in this case.

    I think that’s extremely easy to understand. Also, if you are unable to see why it’s proven Jeff G is extremely dishonest, or you think it hasn’t been proven that he does attempt to intimidate people he disagrees with, then I don’t think you’re paying attention to this argument at all.

    Which is perfectly understandable… it isn’t exactly relevant to the real world. But Jeff G has altered comments, including from yours truly. It was not at all evident this was satirical. You cannot trust anything he says, or anything anyone says on his blog. You simply do not know that Jeff hasn’t again screwed with honest arguments.

    You sound very reasonable to me, Kevin. I’m not trying to bluster or insult you, but I think you’re coming at this with some preconceptions that are not the same as my understanding. You are completely right that Patterico has a weak case and I have already told him I think he messed up to mention it at all, but I do not think he acted dishonorably, and I think the apology he owes is to his friend with the letter (and I would bet my house Patterico gave such an apology).

    BTW, Patterico emailed me to let me know that he agrees I am right to criticize him in this case. He doesn’t do these classy things so that he looks good, but rather because they are the proper thing to do.

    As to the ‘Is Patrick Frey and antisemite’, all you have to do is google the issue to see if Jeff G google bombed such a claim with no evidence. I thank you for noting such behavior is horrible. I also think it’s a sad waste of Jeff G’s talents.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  498. We’ll also work to strengthen our relationship when it comes to energy. Brazil holds recently discovered oil reserves that could be far larger than ours, and as we seek to increase secure-energy supplies, we look forward to developing a strategic energy partnership.

    pathetic… Barack Obama’s America is weak, pitiful, cowardly, and so terribly terribly small.

    How embarrassing.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  499. The use of the word “wisdom” in the title of that blog is a blatant case of false advertising.

    The fact is, I have seen Patterico do both of these things, in an adult fashion, when has needed to do so.

    I don’t remember him doing so, but for an important reason: I don’t remember any incident when he needed to do so.

    Perhaps Mr. G can take a lesson from that.

    kishnevi (c89e0a)

  500. happyfeet,

    I’m sure you already know this, but Soros has been invested in Brazil’s oil operation. He’s bet big on the USA becoming reliant on Brazil instead of being reliant on herself. The last thing some companies need is the USA drilling for oil, and this is reflected in a lot of decisions Obama has made.

    Many of those oil workers and platforms that the Obama administration’s bizarre moratorium sent away are now working for Petrobas.

    I should add that Soros appears to have sold much of this investment, but that’s after the value of this investment grew, thanks largely to our energy policy.

    Obama loves to talk up people he wants us dependent on. I’m not sure what we could be doing in Japan that we aren’t, but I doubt Obama’s focus is being an effective world leader in any way.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  501. what does bumble think we’re gonna buy the Brazilian oils with? Food stamps?


    happyfeet (ab5779)

  502. [dustin]
    I do suspect that the more Jeff G’s kook squad pushes the issue…

    This is the kind of thing that bothers me. You guys seem to think I’m a Jeff G. plant, and the Protein Wisdom people seem to think I’m a liberal. Both are false, but whatever.

    Jeff doesn’t have a ‘kook squad’ any more than you guys are the Patterico ‘kook squad’. Yet you both call each other the same damned thing. And if you’ll allow me a further ‘yet’, YET YOU ALL GENERALLY AGREE POLITICALLY!

    This is divisive and serves no purpose for the common good.

    Kevin the Goat Buggerer (bdcaca)

  503. Thanks for the cool new name, Daily Rocks!

    Kevin the Goat Buggerer (bdcaca)

  504. Jeff doesn’t have a ‘kook squad’ any more than you guys are the Patterico ‘kook squad’.

    Oh, it’s surely the case that both ‘factions’ have fans. It isn’t the case that Jeff’s fanboys aren’t often quite dishonest themselves. Take Pablo for instance.

    I am not familiar with you, Kevin, and I haven’t read your commentary at PW. I did note you seemed reasonable to me, but had a lot of misconceptions. I have no idea how kooky you are. I do wonder if the kook squad of Jeff’s fans aren’t setting themselves up.

    Jeff G threatened to break a dude’s ankles and he alters comments as an earnest debate tactic. Anyone who cheers that is a freaking kook, Kevin.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  505. [Dustin]
    Are you being deliberately obtuse?

    Never :(. You’d be correct to assume ignorance if it looked that way.

    He has been proven dishonest IN A DIFFERENT CASE and therefore I do not trust his denial in this case.

    Here’s a perfect example of my ignorance. I don’t doubt you. But I have no idea what case you are talking about. And no idea how to find out :(.

    Dustin, after reading the rest of your comment, you seem like a guy I’d like to have a beer with. There is no better praise than that.

    On a lighter note, I have to run now… I think I just saw a goat walk by :)

    Kevin the Goat Buggerer (bdcaca)

  506. Kevin,

    Deflection doesnt work, I could care less your agreement level with PW crowd, there is no PW crowd, just a loss knit group of commentators left over from the “paid” days

    Jeff has a storied history, well documented, and now people who he has listed on his writing resume are sending him letters that they are ashamed of him or his writing and no longer want to even be mentioned by him

    He has had his run, eventually, somewhere somehow everyone who is as out of control as he can get meets their waterloo. Legal problems will arise eventually, he will smear someone with the means to take care of it, and wants to take care of it

    But since the traffic is way down at his site, his chances of meeting that special person are diminshing

    As witnessed by his own, having to travel to find conversation

    EricPWJohnson (477908)

  507. Dustin,

    Looks like te kook squad comment hit a nerve

    EricPWJohnson (477908)

  508. sunny thank you for the TRUTH you let me see sunny thank you for the FACTS from a to z*

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  509. I does look like I lumped Kevin in without knowing for sure. Kevin, I apologize. I’m a just tired of this blog war.

    I suggest you stick around and offer your views, left wing or moderate or whatever, on more interesting subjects. I am simply a bit too weary of this issue to lay out my case again. A lot of people can note I’ve done it several times now.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  510. In my defense, the reason I’ve been commenting less is because I live in the Austin area and SXSW. So my perspective is that blog spats are not exactly ‘living the good life’.

    Also, Patterico has gotten himself into a frustrating situation, but he’s earned a lot of credit for how forthright he is.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  511. Clearly I can’t have an understanding with you guys because, as Mr. Johnson says, “Jeff has a storied history, well documented…” and I don’t have those documents to sustain his claim.

    This is starting to be very weird. Not what I’d expect from a lawyery crowd. I’m getting hit with example after example of how Goldstein is bad, yet without proof! Just sayings of “It’s been shown…” Imagine if they were saying this about you or someone in your family.

    More to the point, who CARES what happened in the past? Prove your current accusations or apologize. It really can’t be more simple than that.

    Kevin the Goat Huggerer (bdcaca)

  512. Kevin, your ignorance is not an argument.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  513. An explanation, SPQR.

    Kevin the Goat Huggerer (bdcaca)

  514. “This is divisive and serves no purpose for the common good.”

    Kevin the Goat Buggerer – Please pass the above on to your friends over at PW. I’m very sure they will be receptive. After all, Jeff does not read this blog or care what Patterico say and is not obsessed with him. Somehow he managed to become unhinged over three words in a longer post by Patterico pointing out an error in a post by Jeff G. Not the behavior of a very stable person, but you make your own call, as you say, you only claim to be an occasional reader.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  515. “Clearly I can’t have an understanding with you guys”

    Kevin the Goat Buggerer – Sure you can, just drop the preconceived position you appear to have arrived here with.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  516. “Prove your current accusations or apologize. It really can’t be more simple than that.”

    Kevin the Goat Buggerer – We can’t really have an understanding with you if you take that position without demonstrating any knowledge of the situation, which you have not. Sorry.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  517. Kevin, here’s proof that Jeff G acts in a way you descrbed as “horrible”.

    I cannot prove anything about this c/d. All I know is that Patterico is honest and he says his friend claims he sent one. It’s clear to me this is a minor issue in comparison to Jeff’s long record of acting like a jerk.

    You say you haven’t seen evidence, but the link I just posted is easy to find if you google the issue, and since I was noting a google bomb effort, that is not unreasonable to expect you to do. You’re expressing curiosity about it, after all, and I think it would be better if you had looked into it.

    A lot more on Jeff is covered in this thread.

    Here’s a good example of Jeff trying to intimidate someone he disagrees with, but there are so many examples and I somewhat resent being asked to prove them to someone who says the past doesn’t matter.

    Patterico doesn’t owe Jeff an apology, Kevin, unless he did something to Jeff that was wrong. Since Patterico honestly related a story that is probably true…

    Dustin (c16eca)

  518. I challenge (in a friendly tone) Kevin to demand Jeff G prove Patterico is antisemitic or apologize.

    And I am being really generous. These situations are radically different.

    I’m losing comments, I think because I just compiled this OS and my cookies are gone. But I had one expressing a little surprise anyone asks us to prove Jeff G alters comments or has threatened anyone. Is that in serious question? Doesn’t it make sense for someone to conduct a good faith inquiry about things that happened at least a year ago?

    Dustin (c16eca)

  519. “I challenge (in a friendly tone) Kevin to demand Jeff G prove Patterico is antisemitic or apologize.”

    Hmm. I can see that I’m lacking in knowledge of the situation between these two guys. This crap has been going on for two years?!

    I’m bowing out. Clearly, I have no idea what’s going on here. Apologies for intruding. Also, I’ve decided to stop buggering goats. Just an fyi.

    Kevin (bdcaca)

  520. I’m bowing out. Clearly, I have no idea what’s going on here. Apologies for intruding. Also, I’ve decided to stop buggering goats. Just an fyi.

    All good plans.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  521. “…Clearly, I have no idea what’s going on here…”

    Yes, but it didn’t stop you from wading in. Why not learn more before you do so? There is this thing called Google. Also, search functions for blogs.

    Simon Jester (46d461)

  522. Thanks spqr and jester for your hospitality :(.

    Kevin (bdcaca)

  523. Someone e-mailed me to say Jeff Goldstein has contacted my employer over all this. He is in fine company, sharing that distinction with convicted bomber Brett Kimberlin, the lawyer for convicted wiretapper Anthony Pellicano, and a handful of other unsavory characters.

    The quotes I received by e-mail showed him alleging that his identity has been stolen, putting fraud alerts on his identity, etc. — because (he says) someone has been sending out e-mails under his name. Whether the allegation that his identity has been stolen is sincere (meaning he no longer alleges me to be a liar) or feigned (as an excuse to contact my employer) I do not know and don’t much care.

    Anyway, I decided on my dad’s birthday that I was a happier person not reading his site. I simply can’t concern myself with the dishonest ravings of every unstable Internet tough guy who wants to misrepresent my writings. Life is too short.

    Meaning that I never would have heard about him contacting my office, had someone not e-mailed me. If there are further major developments I need to hear about, hopefully one of the regulars will notify me.

    I just have one question at this point. Jeff alleges it is identity theft to write things and attribute them to someone else, as he claims someone has done here. If so, is it identity theft to alter comments made by someone, without notice, while leaving their name at the head of the comment?

    Jeff might want to consider how his arguments might apply to his own behavior.

    In any event: contacting employers! It’s not just for the left any more!

    Patterico (c218bd)

  524. I liked what you wrote about your father, and choosing to be happier by staying away from bad people. I am so saddened to see this.

    There are lots of people with whom I have differences. But there isn’t a one of them on whom I would wish trouble at work. I cannot wrap my mind around people who would do that.

    Simon Jester (7d9322)

  525. I have had more than one person say they are nervous to go to his site because — due to his history of escalating Internet disagreements into real life in various ways — they are afraid he will use information received from those visits against the visitor. Accordingly, the person who notified me about this sent me a Google cache link of the post in which he speaks of having contacted my employer. You can go to this link and read the post, if you’re so inclined, without actually visiting his site and giving him information he can use against you:

    I clicked on it to verify the link but didn’t read it, preferring to stick to reading the quotes that my correspondent sent me. Clicking that link is too much like actually visiting the site. But if you’re curious to read his rationale for contacting my employer, you can click that link safely, without giving him any information that he can use to escalate his disagreement with you into real life.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  526. Patterico–it is probably pertinent that you don’t take any measures to hide who you are in real life. It’s not like he had to do much investigating to find out who your employer is. I knew within three days (possibly less) of reading your blog for the first time what your real name is and where you work–and that was from statements made by you.

    However, I don’t think you need to fear much from a man who can’t think of a better way to insult you than by saying you wear frumpy pants.

    kishnevi (b40a74)

  527. due to his history of escalating Internet disagreements into real life in various ways

    To be completely fair, that pansy has yet to make good his promise.

    As I have said before, I suspected that stepping up to his threat would disarm him. I still think his threat was completely serious, and that my lack of fear doesn’t change that.

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  528. Therefore it follows that both Frey and the supposed victim are potentially protecting an identity thief in the commission of his crime against me. I have asked DDA Frey for the contact information of the attorney who supposedly sent me the cease and desist order.

    [ignorance omitted]

    Question: as an officer of the court, is DDA Frey not ethically bound to release information he now knows was used in the course of a crime?

    Leaving aside the bizarre and other-worldly paths that his thought process takes, JeffyG ignores one thing:

    What if Patrick has no reason to believe a crime is being committed? If Patrick thinks that the e-mails are genuine, then he has no obligation to do one f**king thing JeffyG asks.

    I do hope Patrick’s boss tells JeffyG to f**k off.

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  529. I dunno, Patrick. You still haven’t produced the C&D or apologized. You really should do one or the other, if you want to save any face at all. This whole accusation has a sleazy feel to it, and only you can change that, by doing one or the other options above.

    (I should mention that I bowed back in after I learned that the antisemite post by Goldstein was just a slap in Frey’s face for his racist claim against McCain. Claims of racism, and therefore antisemitism are among the lowest of low claims. Reverend Sharpton level of low.)

    Kevin (bdcaca)

  530. Wow, pathetic but not surprising. It seems he has been trying to hurt you professionally for some time. Thanks for the link, I don’t want to visit.

    I suspect he must be driven to insanity knowing that you have an actual paying gig dealing with actual, 3 dimensional bad guys and he just plays one on his blog.

    prmetime (f65600)

  531. Also, as a resident of LA county, I certainly hope the DA’s office has better things to do than entertain Jeffy with his histrionics.

    prmetime (f65600)

  532. Kevin, I’m done explaining this to someone who hasn’t bothered to learn the history, including Goldstein’s playing the antisemite victim card months before I said a word about Robert Stacy McCain. It would be interesting to learn what my “racist claim against McCain” is in your mind (in other words, 1) did I call McCain a racist? 2) what was the quote of his that I criticized? 3) did he post contradictory statements regarding the ownership of that quote? etc. etc. etc.); my guess is you’re taking yet another set of misrepresentations as Gospel truth. But again, I have neither the time, patience, or inclination to re-explain it to someone who is ignorant of Jeff’s past. I’m in the middle of a murder trial and have better things to do than to re-explain 2 1/2 years of history to the guy who repeatedly claimed I had outed Allahpundit as a closeted homosexual.

    If someone else wants to, they’re welcome to … but I kinda doubt you’re going to find any takers.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  533. Patterico: the goal here is to draw you back in. Jeez.

    Simon Jester (166078)

  534. Kevin, you’re being unbelievably dishonest.

    I’ve tried to take your comments as good faith, but it’s clear they are not.

    Patterico’s discussion about RSM’s comments are ancient history, and I really like RSM, so I don’t want to dig into that, but let’s be very clear that Patterico didn’t call RSM racist. In fact, I called RSM racist and Patterico argued against me, saying that an isolated comment, from long ago, doesn’t prove such a thing. Remember, that comment had something to do with thinking it’s natural to find a different race entering your family to be bad (generally, anyway).

    You say that honest discussion actually justifies Jeff G’s google bomb that Patterico is an antisemite. Jeff offered no evidence… he simply constructed a post with Patterico’s professional name and employment info and google bombed it with a very nasty, completely untrue, accusation. That, to you, is justified.

    And you’re still saying Patterico owes an apology over the C/D? Jeff is admitting such an email may have been sent! He’s saying his excuse is ID theft! How in the hell is that Patterico’s fault? It’s a fantastic excuse.

    Let’s make an analogy. Let’s say Sally tells you the moon is made of cheese. You tell Danny “Sally told me the moon is made of cheese.” Do you owe anyone an apology? No. Whether Sally is right or wrong, you told the truth. Patterico told the truth about what his friend reported. Jeff’s explanation could be true, though you have had plenty of time to see that I was telling the truth that he alters comments, so I am asserting that you know Jeff G is dishonest, and therefore there’s no reason to trust his claims.

    But whether he’s right or wrong, you have stacked the deck in three cases in a radically unfair way to Patterico, and in a way that forgives Jeff for doing something you already admitted was “horrible”.

    It is horrible to make up lies about people. You have acknowledged that Jeff did this with his antisemitic accusation, and your forgiveness of this because it was a “slap in the face” is irrational.

    I think you came here pretending to be impartial. Regardless, your argument sucks.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  535. Also, Patterico, you are wise to do your best to ignore Jeff G and his site as much as you can.

    I think we can all see that Jeff G is angry that you’re not engaging him. His blog has mentioned your “good man” post from 2008 thousands of times, and now Jeff is disputing that you’re fulfilling your obligations as an officer of the court, contacting your boss, and, to be frank, harassing you in a way that is probably similar to how he harassed whoever sent the C/D.

    We’ve seen a lot of jerks react terribly to Jeff, but sometimes I wonder what the other side of that story was. That’s not to forgive that one former lady professor at all for her harassment, but she was mentally ill, and I wonder if Jeff somehow instigated behind the scenes. It’s clear he doesn’t want peace with you, no matter how you ignore him, or how many times you welcome him back to comment, or how many times you simply offer an overt truce.

    I have no idea how effective you are in your job, but I do know that putting murderers behind bars is of great value to society, and that Jeff G has crossed the line by screwing with your professional career again.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  536. Patterico: the goal here is to draw you back in. Jeez.

    Comment by Simon Jester —

    That’s exactly right. Jeff sees that he can’t draw Patterico in by emailing people or trolling his own threads, so he calls your boss.

    What a freak.

    Kevin, Patterico is one of Allahpundit’s biggest fans. I wonder if you were pulling a passive aggressive stunt, trying to slur him with your homophobia by accusing others of outing him. I don’t have any idea about AP’s sexuality, and I seriously don’t see the relevance of it. Why do you?

    You say you’ve got liberal politics, and yet you’ve got nothing political to say other than calling someone antisemitic is a valid debate tactic even if you have no indication of such.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  537. To be clear: Allahpundit likes babes. Doesn’t mean he gets them . . . but that’s who he likes.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  538. To lighten the mood: true story from my college days.

    I had this real 70s professor, who just didn’t care what other people thought, like the proverbial honeybadger. And he was good enough in academics to be immune to the usual politics.

    Anyway, he was explaining to our large class of maybe 200 students that he didn’t curve.

    A student raised his hand, and said, “I want an ‘A’.”

    The professor looked at him, and said “And I want to date supermodels.” Pause. Then, “So you and me? We have work to do.”

    He didn’t say “date,” incidentally.

    It sounds like something AP would say, doesn’t it?

    Simon Jester (7d9322)

  539. Just for the record; i have never detected anything said by Patterico (or Aaron, Karl, DRJ, Jack Dunphy, or anyone else whose posts have appeared here, for that matter) which sounds remotely anti-semitic.

    There are intermittent trolls/mobys who may make comments which are anti-semitic, but they all disappear very quickly. There was at one time a sort of regular commenter who once made what sounded like an anti-semitic remark, and he was called out on it by at least one of the regulars here (Dustin, IIRC). I haven’t seen any comments by him in several months, so I assume he’s gone on to greener pastures.

    All of which sums up as this: if anyone calls Patterico anti-semitic, they are either crazy, idiotic, or barefaced liars.

    kishnevi (b40a74)

  540. Dustin,

    I love you, that being said, Pats got one of the crappiest jobs in the world, I dont mean its demeaning, quite the opposite, the load of emotions he has to deal with outside, inside the court room, with these – the emotional of all emotional trials, he doesn’t have the time to devote to the trolls, the meanies, the discussions that get out of hand, so lets all keep that in mind, I know you do – feel free to kick some as$ when needed and dont feel bad about it

    EricPWJohnson (58b455)

  541. stupid clouds in Los Angeles we can’t see the moon

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  542. feets, I can see it and it is spectacular. Keep clicking here…

    prmetime (f65600)

  543. don’t know where you are, but hop on the 210 towards pasadena. beeyootiful.

    prmetime (f65600)

  544. ok going outside again… I’m in the studio city, which is not all that far from you

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  545. not far and you really don’t have to get close to pasadena..just the foothill area if it’s cloudy in the valley. prolly a short drive to the 118 and you should be good. definitely worth a drive.

    prmetime (f65600)

  546. no wonder people think it’s made of cheese.. quite yellow, but mild. not really an aged cheddar, but still..

    prmetime (f65600)

  547. still very hazy… I would drive but there’s some fine print on this bottle what suggests I not

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  548. ha! sorry it’s hazy there… it really is spectacular. would post pics, but just got this phone and still working out the camera.

    it almost looks like the moon is touching the radio antennaes. antenni? antennas?

    prmetime (f65600)

  549. feets,

    clear sky, bright white moon. you’re welcome to drop by, but I think the moon will be hiding by the time you get here.

    unless you have your own Blackbird- and there’s no room for it in my driveway.

    But then I’ve never been to California to see what you see

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  550. I am way surprised by the lack of pics coming from la canada. They are just down the street. I do see the clouds over the mountains and mt. wilson was so lit up, i get that the towercam may not have good images.

    Can’t wait to see pics tomorrow.Hope lots of you got a good eyeful. Very exciting. To me anyway!

    prmetime (f65600)

  551. Oops.. Not la canada, pasadena. i always mess that up!

    prmetime (f65600)

  552. Eric:

    I understand what you’re saying, and in a sense you’re right, but in a very real and more important sense, I have one of the best jobs on the planet.

    I get to do the right thing all the time.

    In my current assignment, I prosecute nothing but murders committed by gang members (with very rare exceptions). Yes, it is an emotional rollercoaster, but it’s a great and satisfying job. It had better be — I work at it all the time.

    We can’t see the dang moon here because of all the clouds. Walked in the front and back yards both. No go.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  553. I saw nothing but rain

    Went to a mexican baptism party tonight, modelo’s were going faster than the carnitas and barbacoa…
    This time no one seems to have brought a gun.
    We were gifted a bottle of centenario reposada on our way out that looked full, but had been cracked and it leaked out into my wifes purse and all over her license.
    So I had to go back in and drink water and listen to that damned accordion and the “wee heee heee yi yi yi… for another hour til I could drive. The barbacoa softened the blow, but my ears are killing me. That music bounces right off the ceramic tiles and into the lizard brain. No wonder everyone looked on a mission to drink themselves comatose. That trick of opening two beers at a time on the bottom of a coke can is a neat one considering the 8-10 the guy already had onboard.
    They made the Irish on St. Paddy’s day look like amateurs.
    Anyway, I get sobered up and
    Stuff the purse in the back of the suv and book it home down the 150 in the rain, past a CHP doing a field check on some homeless guy with a shopping cart in the dark about 4 miles up above Casitas lake….

    By the way, it is still pouring up here… so loud I can hear it through the permanent damage i just got from the banda, which by the way was complete with video highlights of mexican bullriding up on the bigscreen. Serious whiplash going on there..
    I believe the party is still going on… maybe into the kareoke phase, which is where bad performances get jeered and whistled and possibly (…hopefully… from my evil twins voyeur side) the offended family launches a salvo of empties… of which their are hundreds.
    In the old days, I’d have stayed for the whole thing just so as not to miss out

    SteveG (cc5dc9)

  554. Kevin, I’m done explaining this to someone who hasn’t bothered to learn the history, including Goldstein’s playing the antisemite victim card months before I said a word about Robert Stacy McCain.

    This is EXACTLY why you SHOULD re-explain, Mr. Frey. I have seen nothing about Jeff playing the antisemite card before the time that he did it just to spoof of you ‘not’ calling McCain a racist (you know, like 9/11 truthers are ‘just asking questions’).

    The simple fact is that I can’t ‘learn the history’ without reading ~50 posts and ~20k comments. So no, I’m not going to do that. I suspect that I’m not alone. I made the same request to Jeff that I’m making to you, Patrick. Publish a post saying what the hell happened and when for us people not in the know. Jeff has already said that he won’t do it :(. I hope that you will make the effort though. It is of course up to you.

    “Who repeatedly claimed…” Hehe. Yeah, that sucked. You banned me for that! Ouch. Still, there is no need to apologize. I completely forgive you.

    “Also, Patterico, you are wise to do your best to ignore Jeff G and his site as much as you can.
    I think we can all see that Jeff G is angry that you’re not engaging him.”

    Clearly, you have this backwards, no? Who linked whom in this latest dustup?

    Kevin (bdcaca)

  555. Kevin, forgive me, but I doubt your sincerity on this topic. And I would observe that you don’t have time to get the facts, but you do have time to criticize without, well, looking anything up first.

    Which takes me back to my first sentence.

    Simon Jester (7d9322)

  556. Look, I dislike people who falsely complain about antisemitism just as much as I hate the Reverend Sharptons of the world who falsely complain about racism. If Mr. Goldstein is doing that, it would be very useful to know. You’d be doing a public service if what you say is true, and you publish it.

    You’d be amazed at how diametrically opposed the viewpoints are between the protein wisdom and patterico sites. This should be reconciled. We’re dealing with facts here, and facts are the easiest things to prove or disprove. One of you should do it. Sadly, it’s not going to be Jeff, so you are our last chance, Patrick.

    Kevin (bdcaca)

  557. I smell a concerned religious conservative mini-AstroTurf strategy at play, Kevin. You really aren’t fooling anyone: if you aren’t a ringer, why, spend this energy doing a bit of research. Especially when you get involved in accusations.

    Please give it a rest, dude.

    Simon Jester (7d9322)

  558. “Kevin, forgive me, but I doubt your sincerity on this topic. And I would observe that you don’t have time to get the facts, but you do have time to criticize without, well, looking anything up first.”

    I’ve looked up a lot of things. Just not everything. I believe I’m incapable of doing that, which is why I’d love to see a timeline from one or both of those who were part of it.

    Before you call me lazy again, try to follow the story by simply using posts and comments. It’s ridiculously hard, and also misleading. One thread leads to to believe one way, and one on the other site leads you in exactly the opposite direction. I’m chemE, so I’m not an idiot. But trying to follow this story in its entirety makes me feel like one. Help!

    Kevin (bdcaca)

  559. Please, who is the real enemy, it’s Brett Kimberlin who started out with death and mutilation, and moved on to fraud and denial of justice, Prop 8 is being neutralized as was 187, 227, et al, it’s like the Brezhnev doctrine, while policies that shouldn’t have seen the light of day, like New START, Fin Reg, seem to slip past. Because that is what people are willing to settle for. The surprise about Japan, is the fact, that the reactor didn’t cleave in two, not some residual radiation, that is being used to ‘euthanize’ nuclear power worldwide.

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  560. Kevin, again: not fooling anyone. You should be ashamed. Truly.

    Simon Jester (7d9322)

  561. Just for my edification, who am I attempting to fool, Mr. Jester?

    Kevin (bdcaca)

  562. Please. Quit wasting everyone’s time. You are nowhere near as clever as you believe yourself to be. Move along now.

    Simon Jester (7d9322)

  563. I have a new theory as to why neither of the protagonists in this story will write a post detailing what happened and when. Maybe it’s because you’ll BOTH end up looking like jerks :). That’s certainly a possibility. It’s hard not to do something jerky when you are being attacked.

    I still think you should apologize for making up this C&D thing, Patrick, or expose the guy who made it up in the first place. As for the rest of this long sordid ordeal, I remain hopeful that one/both of you will fill me in. It sucks when two people on the right are at odds, and I look forward to the day when this crap is over.

    Thanks for not re-banning me.

    Kevin (bdcaca)

  564. “Please. Quit wasting everyone’s time. You are nowhere near as clever as you believe yourself to be. Move along now.”

    So, the question was too complicated for you? I ask again, who am I attempting to fool, Mr. Jester?

    Kevin (bdcaca)

  565. Is there a name for people who like to stir things up to cause trouble? I’m trying to think of a name…especially for those people who claim their motives are anything other than trying to cause trouble for others.

    Gosh, whomever could I mean?

    As I say, Kevin: you should feel shame, and leave. But you won’t. You cannot help but try to cause trouble. Eventually you will get tired of all this, and move along to try and cause trouble elsewhere.

    The only saving grace is that everyone reading this knows your “game,” shameful and childish as it is.

    Simon Jester (7d9322)

  566. Clearly I’m pissing you off, Mr. Jester. So I’ll leave as you suggest. It was certainly not my intention to anger you. I was hoping to ‘grok’ this thing, but that’s clearly not going to happen, though no fault of your own.

    Can I leave you something to think about? You perceive me as an enemy, but I am not. We probably agree on 95% of things, yet you’ve treated me like a red-headed stepchild. How did your attack of a stranger on the internet help… anything?

    Kevin (bdcaca)

  567. Concerned religious conservative?

    Do not be fooled by his antics.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  568. Oh, Kevin was banned here before? It takes a hell of a lot to get banned here.

    I guess that explains his dishonest arguments. He pretended to be a disinterested guy just accidentally skewing everything, and now I see he’s trying to instigate.

    Thanks again for noting it is “horrible” to accuse someone of antisemitism out of thin air and google bomb that accusation, linked to their professional name and employer in a transparent attempt to harm their career.

    It’s thus hilarious to see Kevin demand an apology from Patterico repeating what his friend told him because the claim can’t be proven one way or the other. He doesn’t seem to think making obviously wrong and far more hostile accusations is so bad if it’s against the blogger who banned him.

    What a kook.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  569. Is there a name for a troll who tries to stir up trouble? Other than “troll,” I mean?

    That’s it: a “griefer.”

    Simon Jester (7d9322)

  570. Because our friend Kevin has something of a history here, I’m told. Not that I am surprised.

    So the aggrieved question-asker pose is just silly.

    Simon Jester (7d9322)

  571. Please, guys. Kevin is just a disinterested truth seeker. Who got banned here for repeatedly calling Allahpundit a closeted homosexual and is upset at me as a result. And who has concluded that the cease and desist letter was “made up.” But he’s not a partisan trying to stir things up. No, he’s just a detective, impartially seeking out facts wherever they might be found.

    So I’ll give this Internet Columbo what he wants: the post where I documented — months before the RS McCain controversy — Goldstein eagerly donning the mantle of victimhood and falsely accusing me of anti-Semitism. Because, you know, Kevin asked.

    If you read the post, you will see me complaining about Goldstein’s repeated distortions of my position and wondering why Goldstein was doing this. I speculated it might have something to do with his endless fundraisers. Goldstein then responded:

    It’s not like a lot of the lefty blogs haven’t accused me of being a money-grubbing Jew opportunist with no real ideological core. Hearing it come from a true conservative like Mr Frey makes me aware that I best know my place.

    He said I accused him of being a “money-grubbing Jew opportunist,” when I had said nothing whatsoever about his Jewish heritage. Indeed, he even wrote a post about it. But he quickly deleted it after a commenter of mine went into the comments noting the irony that he would play the race card after denouncing such behavior. As Icy Texan later put it:

    It comes down to this: Patterico said “You’re full of crap, Goldstein,” and Goldstein — whose ego obviously cannot absorb such a blow — played the card in defense: “You’re an anti-Semite, Patterico; therefore, your opinion of me being ‘full of crap’ is invalid”.

    PatHMV concurred, telling Jeff:

    Patrick accused you of acting in a particular way because you needed to stir up a way to make some money, after you were dropped by Pajamas Media. You responded to that, at least initially, by saying that he had called you a “money-grubbing Jew opportunist with no real ideological core.”

    To me, that does indeed sound exactly like something Al Sharpton would say. In the words of RS McCain and his fans, you were calling RAAAAAACIST on Patterico, simply because he criticized your motives. You attempt to immunize yourself against any criticism of inappropriate pecuniary motives by attacking anybody who suggests such as an anti-semite.

    Goldstein later tried to portray his “money-grubbing Jew opportunist” comment as ironic or something, rather than the angry lashing out that it was. I then challenged him to put back up the post he had deleted. He responded that he had deleted the post — contradicting his statements at the time, in which he claimed that one post had been lost in some kind of server move. This is all here.

    So there you have it: a false accusation of anti-Semitism, pre-dating the RS McCain affair by months. I bet disinterested Internet detective Kevin will soon be back to apologize for failing to lift a finger to find that himself.

    You know, Kevin, I once contemplated writing up every single episode like this, something like a year or two ago. It’s back when I thought facts actually meant something to people, and I thought: if I actually take the time to fully tell the truth about this guy, his reputation will suffer horribly. I have since realized that the facts don’t really matter in disputes like this. What matters is loyalty. You’re pissed off because you were banned here — and it was a righteous banning, I might add — and so I believe that the facts don’t really matter to you. You just pretend they do. And that’s how 99% of people are. It’s all about personality and nothing about what really happened. You choose your side and you stick with it.

    But let’s say that my sarcasm about you is misplaced, and you really do want to know the truth. I don’t believe it, but we’ll make believe for a moment.

    The stuff I just told you about, is here on my site. I have a search box. It’s not hard to find. And when I am working my ass off all weekend, and I have some guy wanting me to recount 2 1/2 years of a feud with some guy, when it takes me 15 minutes just to recount a single event like this one — and there are dozens more — I have to respectfully decline.

    It doesn’t mean the stuff isn’t there. If you really, really care, go looking. It’s all there.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  572. Bet you money that Kevin tries to get Patterico (or anyone else) to look up other things, too.

    Just a griefer, Patterico.

    Simon Jester (830e4a)

  573. What I don’t get, Simon, is what is so hard about using the search box. It’s there for a reason.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  574. It’s not, Patterico. I don’t think—my opinion only—that was the point.

    The point is get other people dancing to the griefer’s tune.

    Simon Jester (830e4a)

  575. big hands I know you’re the one

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  576. Pizmotality, perhaps, Mr. Feet?

    Simon Jester (830e4a)

  577. no just a femmes song what sorta gets in my head sometimes

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  578. Oh, I like “The Violent Femmes,” too. I just found a very cool word that I need to apply to my own life; I argue with people too much.

    And the word sounded happyfeetish to me. I mean that in a good way.

    It’s a great word.

    Did you blister in the moon last night?

    Simon Jester (830e4a)

  579. that is an awesome word I had to google it

    no moon blisters – total lunar fail on my part.

    I take full responsibility.

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  580. And Jon freakin’ Cryer was the guy who chased it down! I really enjoyed that story, and the word is very applicable to everyone’s lives….

    No duh, winning! involved.

    Simon Jester (830e4a)

  581. Thanks for linking that post despite your disdain for me, Patrick. It’s probably justified. I can be a huge douchebag at times (I blame my parents!).

    I don’t want to piss Simon Jester off by commenting here, but I think I’m going to :(. I just want to thank you for filling in another piece of the puzzle. Wouldn’t it be great if there was a post will ALL of the pieces in place? “He did this, then I did that, then he did this, then… and here we are today.” I bet such a post would get lots of hits. I’d certainly read it.

    In any event, regarding this latest part of the story, you’ve clearly lost this battle, Mr. Frey. Don’t hate me for stating the obvious. Hate me for claiming that you outed Allahpundit if you want, but not for this. Here’s why: C&D letters are as common as lawyers, and just about as beneficial to mankind. They are all but meaningless in most cases, and in THIS case, it is only a rumor of a C&D letter. A claim that you will not or cannot prove. And even if you proved it, who the hell cares if someone received a C&D letter? It couldn’t be more meaningless if you said that you heard that Jeff received a ticket for jaywalking, but were unwilling or unable to back up the claim.

    I’m just saying. You should end this. Apologize or produce the goods. Yet either way, you’ll appear to lose, imo. The unproven claim needed to be much bigger than a C&D.

    I’m about to get banned again, aren’t I :(. Oh well. It was nice seeing all of you again!

    Kevin the goat... well, you know. (bdcaca)

  582. See what I mean, folks? He did *precisely* as I predicted.

    Griefer troll, trying to make people dance.


    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  583. Somewhere in there I missed Kevin’s acknowledgement that Jeff falsely labeled me anti-Semitic, and that said labeling pre-dated the McCain kerfuffle.

    Which just illustrates why it’s useless to write a grand post. I just offered evidence on one issue and was met with the textual equivalent of a blank stare.

    Simon, it appears, was right. Kevin is a griefer, absent evidence to the contrary. Specifically, until a forthright and unqualified acknowledgement of Jeff’s unprovoked and indefensible accusation of antisemitism is forthcoming from Kevin — which acknowledgement might establish some modicum of good faith on Kevin’s part — it’s time to totally ignore what does appear to be nothing but a guy trying to waste my time, due to pique over a years-old banning.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  584. See what I mean, folks? He did *precisely* as I predicted.

    Griefer troll, trying to make people dance.


    Yup. Precisely.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  585. This was my favorite part:

    “…I bet such a post would get lots of hits. I’d certainly read it….”

    Or he could, you know, use that “search box.”

    So the choices are:

    1. Kevin is not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
    2. Kevin is lazy beyond belief.
    3. Kevin is trying to stir things up, as he did in his prior appearance on this blog.

    Honestly, when this guy looks in the mirror, he sees? Well, I think his third sentence is self-revelatory (though he does make a joke trying to blame his parents).


    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  586. No worries, Patterico. He’ll be back again, under another nickname probably, trying the same petty little game.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  587. “Somewhere in there I missed Kevin’s acknowledgement that Jeff falsely labeled me anti-Semitic, and that said labeling pre-dated the McCain kerfuffle.”

    Acknowledged. I’d just like to see the whole thing on a single page.

    I don’t know what a griefer troll is, so I can’t defend against it or admit its truth.

    Kevin (bdcaca)

  588. here is a street fight between the bodybuilders and the drag queen hookers but what happens is the low-riding pimp daddies bring peace with their magic blue dust and everyone is friends again

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  589. Kevin, you played the game so don’t pretend not to recognize it when its named.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  590. it’s like a metaphor I think

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  591. I love the term “griefer”, Simon.

    It’s always satisfying when a troll complains about how he’s about to be banned, even when it’s pretty clear he isn’t about to be banned and is simply out of trolling ideas.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  592. Wow your anti-semetic patterico?

    That seems highly unlikely.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  593. Look, I’m getting heat from both patterico and protein wisdom people, and it’s approaching a tipping point. These are both conservative sites in their own way, and I’m rather hardcore conservative/libertarian.

    It’s really starting to bother me that when all I’m asking for is a quick post… from EITHER of you, explaining the events that led to this (because I really think you should be friends. You both have similar goals.) that you both choose to deliver vitriol instead. Against me, a goofy commenter. It’s very disappointing. It feels like the same argument I had years ago on lgf. I lost that argument too :(.

    Kevin (bdcaca)

  594. Kevin, you are not entitled to any “quick post” when you fail to do what Patterico has already described – use the search function to learn what has already been posted.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  595. we’re friends forever sharing everything together always understanding just how much the other cares

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  596. He really thinks he is clever.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  597. take it away tony

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  598. “I can be a huge douchebag at times (I blame my parents!).”

    Kevin the Goat Buggerer – Take responsibility for your own actions, as you are urging others to do, coward.

    “Therefore it follows that both Frey and the supposed victim are potentially protecting an identity thief in the commission of his crime against me.”

    KTGB, were you impressed by Jeff’s logic there? Sure, that is the ONLY conclusion to be reached. He sounds as dumb as Brad Friedman when Braddy plays lawyer.

    You should urge Jeffy to stop this self-destructive behavior. It’s embarrassing.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  599. “Look, I’m getting heat from both patterico and protein wisdom people, and it’s approaching a tipping point.”

    Kevin the Goat Buggerer – Look, I don’t think either blog has your personal psychological needs at the top of its list, whether you are tipping over or not. Deal with it. And stop blaming your parents for being an azzhole. Put on some big boy pants.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  600. “Kevin, you are not entitled to any “quick post” when you fail to do what Patterico has already described – use the search function to learn what has already been posted. Comment by SPQR”

    And what words should I put in the search box that will tell me exactly what happened and when it happened? I doubt such a phrase exists, which is why I asked for a new post*. But if there IS one, I’d be forever grateful if you’d tell me what it is.

    * as I said before, Jeff won’t do it either. So don’t think I’m picking on Patrick. He’s just my last hope of comprehension.

    Kevin (bdcaca)

  601. Dustin, forgive me if you know this, but “griefer” has a particular definition relevant to this situation: a person who posts simply to irritate others (it comes from online gaming, I’m told, from people who play multiplayer games and then screw up other people’s scenarios). Sounds about right.

    “Tipping point” is pretty funny.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  602. See what I mean? It’s just a childish game.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  603. ==we’re friends forever sharing everything together always understanding just how much the other cares==

    You work for Hallmark?

    elissa (47dd8e)

  604. Elissa, I think he just admires Tony Randall. And why not?

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  605. Kevin, no you are obviously just stirring the shit.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  606. “until a forthright and unqualified acknowledgement of Jeff’s unprovoked and indefensible accusation of antisemitism is forthcoming from Kevin”

    He didn’t accuse you of being an anti-Semite. He parodied your takedown of RSM on racism (but not really) grounds.

    I don’t think he really believes you’re an anti-Semite, nor do his readers for the most part. His point was to defend McCain.

    At the time at least, I thought you had a strong point about McCain, and understated it. But if you’re going to attack Jeff G.’s friend and fellow conservative blogger, it shouldn’t surprise you overly much if Jeff G. turns his sights on you with the same type of rhetoric you used on McCain, now, should it?

    Without a doubt, Jeff G. is “guilty” of seeding your full name in the search engines alongside the word anti-Semite. But then, you had done effectively the same thing with RSM. Both of you declared that you’re not really accusing the other person of the selected prejudice, just investigating it.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  607. “Kevin the Goat Buggerer – Look, I don’t think either blog has your personal psychological needs at the top of its list, whether you are tipping over or not. Deal with it. And stop blaming your parents for being an azzhole. Put on some big boy pants.

    Comment by daleyrocks”

    I would prefer it if you called me MR. The Goat Buggerer. If it’s not too much to ask. The way you wrote it seems disrespectful. Quite frankly, your attitude makes me consider never buggering a goat again. That’ll learn ya!

    Heh, I don’t blame my parents. It was a joke, meant to lower the level of bile thrown at me. Clearly it did not work!

    As to the soul of your comments, of course you are right that I’m not entitled to a ‘quick post’ explaining things – or anything, for that matter. That’s why I made a request, not a demand.

    You guys are extremely aggressive. How come? This is a blog, for Christ’s sake.

    Kevin (bdcaca)

  608. Because you are playing a game, Kevin, and it is insulting to presume that your are so smart other people don’t “get it.” Yes, you got Patterico to create a post for you (which was your goal), but you are playing games throughout.

    It’s tiresome. Please go away.

    Or you could always use that search box. And saying “I don’t know what to write there” makes you look either exceptionally dull or a jerk.

    Your choice. Although your prior history here does not make the choice any clearer.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  609. Kevin, you are not really very good at this game.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  610. hf

    The answer is: yes, President Wonderbumble is planning on us paying for Brazil’s oil with food stamps… but not the old food stamps. The new ATM card food stamps. It alleviates any sense of stigma.
    He learned this at the 4 hour seminar for community organizers that was held at the Shabazz center for voter equality.
    The wonder part of bumble is all wee wee’d up over the chance to apply street level social economics to the entire southern hemisphere.
    Brazil used to stiff the world bank for decades on every loan made to it, so we might as well use shiny magnetic cards to pay for their oil

    SteveG (cc5dc9)

  611. “You guys are extremely aggressive. How come? This is a blog, for Christ’s sake.”

    Mr. Kevin the Goat Buggerer – All in your imagination, perhaps because of your fragile emotional tipping over state. This is a love blog. Just ask happyfeet.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  612. “* as I said before, Jeff won’t do it either. So don’t think I’m picking on Patrick. He’s just my last hope of comprehension.”

    Mr. Kevin the Goat Buggerer – How many whiny comments have you written over there on the subject?

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  613. are you ready?

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  614. I can be a huge douchebag at times (I blame my parents!).

    That is incredibly unfair to your parents.

    For example, I am a massive ass. I am often overly profane and vulgar.

    But that is not the fault of my parents. It is a choice on my part, much like you choose to be a complete f**kwit.

    Don’t blame your parents for your failings.

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  615. What the hell? I’m not ‘very good at this game’, I don’t think I’m smarter than you (heck, I don’t even know you), and I don’t really even think this is a game.What the hell is wrong with you?

    I’m just asking for a single post. Why does that piss so many of you off? Patrick provided evidence that Jeff played the racism card before the McCain silliness. But then Jeff countered with a statement that Patrick said that Obama was a good man (which we can all agree is horribly untrue). Still waiting for that all-encompassing search phrase, spqr.

    Mr. Kevin the Goat Buggerer – How many whiny comments have you written over there on the subject?


    Thanks for adding ‘Mr.’, daleyrocks. It just seems more professional. One more request – we’re not in England. Why not use the American word for buggering? You seem to have little trouble maligning someone with the English equivalent. Why not the American one?

    Kevin (bdcaca)

  616. Scott, I think it is great to be self-critical, but you have never, and I mean never, played dumb games like this character.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  617. Mr. Feets – Thanks, I knew I could count on you. Back at you.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)


    happyfeet (ab5779)

  619. “Mr. Kevin the Goat Buggerer – How many whiny comments have you written over there on the subject?


    Mr. Kevin the Goat Buggerer – You have a lot of catching up to do over there to balance things out. Bugger off.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  620. it’s a shack what is wholly devoted to a single purpose… love!

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  621. Don’t make me pull out the Weird Al Yankovic business. Okay, I will:

    As for what is wrong with daley, well, he is simply not afraid of letting his own colors shine.

    It’s a rainbow, Mr. Feet, if not quite what Ween thought.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  622. Mr. Feets – R U O.K.?

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  623. Is something wrong wif the B52’s? Nobody tells me anything.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  624. Tell you what, Kevin.

    “…I’m just asking for a single post. …”

    I have a great idea. You just try putting search items in that little box. Keep track. Post and let us what you found. Each time.

    We’ll pay attention, I promise. And we’ll give you more suggestions as to what to put in the search box next.

    Again and again.

    Is this sounding familiar?

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  625. Daley, whatever you do, don’t ask Kevin about cigarettes using British slang. He’ll accuse you of things.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  626. all good I just thought Mr. Kevin’s question would sound better amplified and I wanted to see if I was right

    I was I think

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  627. Oh, I thought you were objecting to the B52s.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  628. “I have a great idea. You just try putting search items in that little box. Keep track. Post and let us what you found. Each time.”

    Great plan! Almost as great as putting monkeys in a room with typewriters.

    I can be a huge douchebag at times (I blame my parents!).
    That is incredibly unfair to your parents.
    Check the linksplanation.

    “Mr. Kevin the Goat Buggerer – How many whiny comments have you written over there on the subject?
    Mr. Kevin the Goat Buggerer – You have a lot of catching up to do over there to balance things out. Bugger off.

    While I generally applaud your distaste for the word ‘fuck’, you should probably be taught to realize that you are saying it repeatedly, only in British. It’s not any better than saying ‘bumsen’, the German word for ‘fuck’. Or scopata, as the Italians say. Or ‘fuck’ itself. It’s tacky. Low class. You should stop it. It makes you look like a worse person than you probably are.

    As for ‘balance’, it’s pretty equal. I’ve complained to both sides in this argument in a mostly equal number of comments, to very little avail. I have to be honest and say that the people at protein wisdom, while not generally nice, were a hell of a lot nicer than you guys. Either you guys are not friendly, or you don’t tolerate fools like me. I’ll leave it to you to decide. I suspect which way you’ll go in your decision, and postulate that it’s the other.

    Kevin (bdcaca)

  629. but you have never, and I mean never, played dumb games like this character.

    Well, to be fair, he is exceedingly good at being dumb…

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  630. He didn’t accuse you of being an anti-Semite. He parodied your takedown of RSM on racism (but not really) grounds.

    I don’t think he really believes you’re an anti-Semite, nor do his readers for the most part. His point was to defend McCain.

    Christoph, if you’re going to comment on this, try to show you’re paying attention. I will not reprint the relevant parts of the comment I left for Kevin above, which you did not bother to read and click the links for, which show that the initial accusation of antisemitism which I was talking to Kevin about happened months before. But since you’re insistent on expressing an opinion without doing the work, I’ll make it easy on you by linking the comment.

    Again, the “money grubbing Jew opportunist” line (in which Jeff accused me of saying that about him) was uttered by Jeff about me months before the McCain kerfuffle. I just didn’t bother to post about it until Jeff did the Googlebomb related to McCain. Do the reading before commenting again. Follow the links and establish your own timeline or don’t comment again.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  631. Taint nuthin’ wrong wit da B-52s!!!

    Icy Texan (986bd1)

  632. Patterico, see how Kevin’s game proceedeth? It’s all about getting other people to do things, in a childish power game.

    Just a griefer.

    Simon Jester (830e4a)

  633. Icy, do you mean the band or the aircraft?

    Simon Jester (830e4a)

  634. Either, Simon.

    Kate Pierson rules!!!

    Icy Texan, who was born and raised in the land of all the mothballed B-52 bombers (986bd1)

  635. Kevin:
    You’ve made some very serious allegations against your parents. Without at least some evidence that your douchebaggery is actually their fault, I have to believe that you are a liar. You need to supply me a detailed list of all the incidents in your life involving your parents so I can decide for myself as to the origin of your condition. Or you could send them a link to this thread and they could defend themselves.

    kaf (4a1752)

  636. Mexico fires their US ambassador. Wowsers. Barack Obama’s America is a surprisingly weak and cowardly nation. Pitiful, really.

    President Felipe Calderon, who met earlier this month with Obama at the White House, had taken umbrage publicly in February over remarks Pascual made in a diplomatic cable about the Mexicans’ handling of the anti-drug trafficking effort there. The diplomatic document was among tens of thousands disclosed by the WikiLeaks website.

    whatever you say Felipe bow bow scrape scrape

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  637. The Mexican’s have distinguished themselves… in some manner…

    The proper stance would be to tell them the truth they already know

    SteveG (cc5dc9)

  638. Point made, Patterico, in that Jeff implied anti-Semitism by putting words in your mouth re: money-grubbing opportunist, prior to your McCain is/isn’t a racist take-down.

    However that may be, and I don’t like the guy as you well know (I agree with you about his issuing threats and, therefore, find it plausible that he could have harassed someone via email and led to a family feeling fear), the fact remains that it still looks like he’s being transparent when he’s calling for release of everything, and you’re saying you can’t even tell him the name of a lawyer who wrote a letter to him.

    So, he could be a totally stalkerish threateningish (more so than previously established) martial-arts bully-braggart … and yet, you have managed to make it look like he is the transparent one; and you, your friend, and your friend’s lawyer have something to hide.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  639. Kaf, that was righteously funny.

    Simon Jester (830e4a)

  640. Let’s look at your language for a second:

    “until a forthright and unqualified acknowledgement of Jeff’s unprovoked and indefensible accusation of antisemitism is forthcoming from Kevin”

    [emphasis mine]

    You were referring to Jeff’s reaction when you left this comment on his blog:

    “Goldstein needs a foil. So he can start a movement. April 1 is coming fast. Money’s running out. So you take a conservative who has been busting his local paper for six years, falsely caricature him as a wimpy turncoat, mobilize the forces against him, and start a foundation. Donation requests coming soon. Who’s in?”

    In referring to Jeff’s reaction, you wrote in a standalone post:

    “You can say what you like about that quote, but I don’t say a goddamned thing about his Jewish heritage.”

    [emphasis mine]

    1) So, it’s not entirely so that Goldstein was unprovoked, is it?

    2) Further, considering that he was been somewhat provoked, even though he made a mistake about what guided you to criticize him (not anti-Semitism, but rather something else), doesn’t it also follow that his “money-grubbing” paraphrase of your criticism of him is at least somewhat defensible, in context (as an angry reaction to what you wrote)?

    In fact, referring to your comment on Jeff’s post that caused him to react with the “money-grubbing” paraphrase of your criticism of him, you wrote this: “In the midst of my anger, I posted this comment on his site ….” Goldstein is not the only person of you two capable of responding “in the midst of anger”.

    Whether you will concede the point I make in that second question or not, I think you must concede the one I made in the first question.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  641. happyfeet,

    Mexico may have urged Ambassador Pascual to resign — and perhaps that was your point — but for the record he was the U.S. Ambassador to Mexico, not the Mexican Ambassador to the U.S.

    DRJ (fdd243)

  642. yes – they fired the one we assigned them I meant to say

    sometimes it’s hard to make the words

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  643. He was a little too honest in his observations, ask Ambassador Cretz, the one assigned to Libya about that, the rule is if your name is in wikileaks, start updating your resume.

    In other news, since this thread, has not only gone
    Norwegian Blue, but Zombie as well;

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  644. Christoph, to answer 1) and 2) all at once:

    There are two separate issues.

    a) Did I say something angry, prompting an angry response? Sure.

    b) Does anger, prompted by a comment that makes no reference to race/heritage, justify someone’s going full-bore Al Sharpton and throwing himself on the cross of racial/heritage-based victimhood? I say no — especially when the person in question has spent years denouncing such race-hustling-style victimology.

    YMMV and I don’t really give a rat’s ass whether it does or not.

    Bringing Jewishness into it was totally unprovoked.

    As far as the current controversy, I have said what I have said and am not interested in debating it further. For that matter, I am not interested in re-discussing the events of March 200x (I forget the year) any longer either.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  645. Thanks, all, for the opportunity to waste countless hours talking about Jeff Goldstein. However, for the same reasons I have declined to visit his site in recent days, I hereby decline any further invitation to debate anything under the sun that has anything remotely to do with him. It is a waste of my valuable life.

    If and when I can say anything about the matter as to which he has contacted my office, I will. Until such time, I will be ignoring and likely deleting any comments that ask me to defend any action I have ever taken against him. I have spent far more time than any person should writing about this cretin. It is all in the archives. Look there for your answers and stop wasting my time.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  646. Thank you, Patterico.

    Simon Jester (830e4a)

  647. This other link, involves a more pertinent issue, re the Wisconsin sitzkrieg

    I found both in the ‘Blog that dare not be named’

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  648. doesn’t it also follow that his “money-grubbing” paraphrase of your criticism of him is at least somewhat defensible, in context

    Holy crap, of course not.

    Jeez. You and Kevin were both banned in the past, Kevin for his gay bashing or whatever that was exactly and you for being just plain vulgar. Neither of you seem to be willing to approach this even remotely honestly. How pathetic to have no integrity because getting banned hurt your feelings.

    Dustin (c16eca)

  649. Dustin, refresh my memory. What did Christoph say that got him banned? I mean, since he is so delicate about provocation, it appears.

    Jeez, but these people are hypocrites.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  650. Simon, thanks.
    I’m just asking questions.

    kaf (4a1752)

  651. Why is everyone so mean when you are just asking questions, kaf? After all, you are just looking for some direction.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  652. it’s her clothes and her smile both plus also her singings… I think Mr. bh linked her one time

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  653. oh and also her eyes

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  654. I see RS McCain has jumped in. I may have to write up a post to clear up a couple of things about my interaction with him, since certain aspects of that interaction seem to be unclear. But if that happens, it may have to wait a while due to overwhelming work.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  655. One thing I think I should note out of fairness: in a conversation with the recipient of the e-mails yesterday, I asked (in light of Jeff’s denial of receipt of a cease and desist letter) where it was sent. I was told that it was to a home address that the recipient had for Jeff. (If I said more about the precise nature of how the recipient had this address it would probably reveal his identity, so that’s all I can say.) I asked: this was your address for him in what year? I forget the exact year I was told, but it was before 2005. As someone who used to read Jeff’s blog, I know he moved in the last few years, almost certainly after 2005.

    The recipient of the e-mails seems to think the letter was forwarded to Jeff, because the e-mails have stopped, and to his knowledge the letter was never returned as undeliverable. But I think it’s important, out of fairness, for me to pass along the information that the letter (I now learn) was probably sent to an old address.

    Patterico (29ea7f)

  656. Patterico, please, your promise. He’s a bad smell, a wet towel accidentally left at the bottom of the hamper getting moldy. Take it out, get rid of it, move on. Talking about it doesn’t make it go away any faster.

    Fritz (ac48cc)

  657. Yup, that’s the post alright, narciso.

    I’m not currently inclined to rehash a bunch of old history — partly because I don’t have time, but mainly because I don’t care to.

    Interested readers who are suspicious of ellipses might seek out what is missing in the final blockquote from me . . . and then see whether the argument still holds up if the cut-out bits are included. Was I criticizing a nascent Tea Party movement, or slanderous misreadings of my writing? Only those bold enough to learn what the ellipses hide will learn the truth!

    I’m a little disappointed to see a hoary Maureen Dowd tactic used on me, especially because I have no desire to be at odds with McCain.

    In the past, I have said what I have said about a particular comment of his, which he had denied making to Alan Colmes, often implied he had not made, and yet admitted making to Founding Bloggers. I believed I knew why he was squirrelly about his ownership of that quote, and wrote my opinion about this well-discussed blogging controversy. In discussing an issue that had been the subject of much discussion in the blogosphere, I acted in no more a “prosecutorial” manner than the manner of McCain’s post today, in which McCain issues to me several items of dubious legal advice, while cheerfully acknowledging in the process that he is not a lawyer.

    Again, this is all ancient history and I see no point in rehashing it now. I also defended him against a Charles Johnson attack accusing him of racism over bumper sticker suggestions.

    In every case, I wrote ruthlessly what I believed to be the truth. I saw that quote somewhere once and liked it.

    I have no desire to jump into yet another blogwar about people’s personalities. If y’all are intent on carrying one out, at this point y’all will just have to do so without me.

    Patterico (c218bd)

  658. It seems like Jeff and his Klown posse are in permanent reruns with a weird auto-tuned version of history at his place. Vitriol, lies and lousy humor, it’s what’s for dinner. Rolaids extra.

    Tip your waitresses or waiters.

    Come back next week and Jeff will be singing the same song.

    daleyrocks (9b57b3)

  659. i founded the best cookie in the whole world today!

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  660. where is red? red you should know about where to find the tasty cookie.


    happyfeet (ab5779)

  661. here! (those are all their cookies)

    it’s right by the Ventura Trader Joe’s … and here is the bestest cookie ever in the whole world of cookies

    they have other cookies for to try but make sure you don’t get distracted from that one… it is sublime and special above all the cookies of the land.

    these ones are supposed to be really really wonderful too but I haven’t tried yet

    and that is the story about the bestest cookie in the whole world of the cookies

    the end

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  662. important: make sure you have milk on hand

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  663. That’s a cookie of kings, pikachu, but it’s too rich for my blood.

    narciso (a3a9aa)

  664. it’s not an everyday cookie no sir

    happyfeet (ab5779)

  665. It seems like Jeff and his Klown posse are in permanent reruns with a weird auto-tuned version of history at his place. Vitriol, lies and lousy humor, it’s what’s for dinner. Rolaids extra.

    Tip your waitresses or waiters.

    Come back next week and Jeff will be singing the same song.

    Don’t miss it. Just make sure to e-mail me if there is anything I actually need to know.

    Patterico (2dea8b)

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