Patterico's Pontifications

2/23/2011

“Open and Notorious;” Wisconsin Updates

Filed under: General — Aaron Worthing @ 8:31 am

[Guest post by Aaron Worthing; if you have tips, please send them here.]

The other day I decided to count all the ways in which those doctors handing out obviously fraudulent sick notes could get in trouble.  First, I confess to failing to notice that their employers might get angry, too, in this case meaning the University of Wisconsin deciding to investigate the doctors in those street clinics who also happened to work for the school.

But I did predict that the state licensing board might be interested and evidently they are starting the investigatory process.  I have to think ordinarily a doctor handing out a few bogus sick notes wouldn’t be a matter of investigation if only because by the principles of triage they had bigger fish to fry.  But there is a phrase we use in law: open and notorious.  And when unethical or unlawful behavior is practiced in an open and notorious fashion, very often officials come down on them, to make the punishment as famous as the infraction itself.  From the article:

Staff at the state Department of Regulation and Licensing have begun to review roughly 300 e-mail complaints about doctors issuing excuse notes for protesters at the state Capitol over the weekend, officials said Tuesday.

Complaints that name a specific doctor and the alleged violations of rules covered by their licenses will be forwarded to the Wisconsin Medical Examining Board. Letters specifying the complaint will be sent to the doctors at the start of the investigation.

To date, the names of doctors Lou Sanner and James Shropshire have been cited in media reports about the medical excuses dispensed over the weekend. Both are affiliated with the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health. The agency said none of the doctors involved was representing UW Health at the time.

Shropshire has not returned a call seeking comment, and Sanner defended his actions in an interview with The Associated Press. He said the excuses were legitimate because those protesting showed symptoms of stress.

Which seems to be the fig leaf they are trying to use to cover up this lawless behavior: stress!  That kind of defiance makes him a nail that sticks up and is likely to be hammered down.

Meanwhile, for Beldar’s benefit, we have the goodness of Megyn Kelly confronting a Teacher’s Union President over the sick notes issue:


I found her weirdly passive with him, but still she made her point.  He was pretty much condoning fraud. And she managed to show that the guy literally had worked out his script and no matter what she actually said, he would stick to it.

In that clip she also showed footage from this next Fox and Friends clip, where they proved they didn’t need O’Keefe to pose as a pimp to catch people acting lawlessly.  And of course you see the phony stress excuse, again.

And of course Ed Morrissey is right to note that it is specious to claim that patient privacy is implicated.  I don’t believe any court would consider a “street examination” as creating the necessary reasonable expectation of privacy.

What the teachers there are hoping for, I suppose, is a bit of Boston Tea Party ethics.  Allow me to explain what I mean by that.  In the original Tea Party, when they partied like it was 1773, the men who dumped the tea dressed like Native Americans.  No one was fooled by their disguise.  The British knew they were colonists, just not which ones.  And many locals more than likely knew exactly who these men were, but it gave them that fig leaf of plausible deniability when the authorities came asking.  You could imagine them saying, “it’s a crying shame that you lobsterbacks had your tea dumped in the harbor.  And I would gladly tell you who did it, but best I could tell they were Indians.”  The same is happening here.  Everyone knows these doctor’s notes are a fraud.  But they are hoping that they gave themselves just enough plausible deniability to allow authorities to pretend they can’t prove any misconduct.

The difference of course was that the Tea Tax was manifestly unjust as taxation without representation, justifying lawless activity up to and including actual revolution.  In contrast, the teachers’ unions had the chance to vote on the issue, and they are damaging the state because they can’t accept losing.  And that is inexcusable.

Hat tip for the videos to Hot Air and The Blaze.

[Posted and authored by Aaron Worthing.]

173 Responses to ““Open and Notorious;” Wisconsin Updates”

  1. The Blaze link doesn’t work btw, I was able to view on JWF, and I don’t go to Hot Air anymore

    narciso (28df0c)

  2. Blaze link is working for me, Narciso.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  3. The teacher that was being interviewed by Griff Jenkins just put her face on national TV, letting the entire nation know who she is and that she is willing to lie to collect her paycheck for work she refuses to do.

    If I were a parent of a child who was being taught by that woman, I would be demanding the school district fire that teacher immediately. There is no way that woman can claim to be interested in my children when she is willing to lie for profit, nor can she convey “honesty is the best policy” to those children in her charge.

    Meanwhile, due to teachers who lack any moral ethics, only 40% of black students reach Graduation Day in Wisconsin public schools.

    It is time for those teachers who are protesting so that the union thugs can continue to get their tony salaries wake up and realize that they are [not] teaching kids who have parents that are unemployed and would be damn happy to just be getting half what those teachers are getting. And I wonder how many of those teachers know that Gerald McEntee, international president of the popular AFSCME union makes $479,328/yr plus benefits and expenses. Richard Trumka’s last reported salary was $260,781/yr, plus benefits and expenses, Reg Weaver of the NEA union pulls down a tony $417,858/yr.

    To paraphrase Allen West, don’t try to blow sunshine up my butt and tell me this is about teacher “rights.”

    retire05 (63d9af)

  4. The doctors’ misbehavior is revealing in several areas. Medical students are much more left wing than people realize and that has been the case for at least ten years. This is being shown in the actions of doctors who were students less than ten years ago. They no longer expect a career of opening an office and seeing patients. They expect to work for a large group or health care company. They are concerned about salary and benefits, not how busy they can be.

    Second “Family Practice” is a field that is getting more and more political. These people will not be the local GP to anyone ever. They will be administering some sort of clinic run by physician assistants and nurse practitioners. If they have any patient contact, it will be a three hour clinic once or twice a week. I have told students that, if they are interested in family practice, they should get an MBA because they will be administrators. Several have done so and USC has a five year program that grants both degrees.

    Students, and often residents in primary care fields, get far less practical experience in training. I’ll bet that third year resident writing notes sees a maximum of 20 patients a week. That would be a morning for an old fashioned GP.

    Medicine is changing, some driven by the impending requirements of Obamacare. Most of you will not like the changes.

    Mike K (8f3f19)

  5. the teachers’ unions had the chance to vote on the issue, and they are damaging the state because they can’t accept losing. And that is inexcusable.

    This is false. The unions are willing to accept cuts but not to give up their ability to negotiate which is what is coming from Walker – stuck in a Koch hole.

    Polls show this is not going over well with the public and the GOP will pay dearly for this.

    Charles (ed90c4)

  6. Charles – That depends on which poll you pay attention to, doesn’t it.

    Those evil Koch Brothers are everywhere, aren’t they? They’re almost as bad as OFA or the SEIU!

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  7. In many regulated professions governed by state boards, Attorneys, doctors, Veternarians, engineers, accountants, insurance agents, etc., technical violations of administrative board rules for non-substative issues result in far greater punishments than negligence or incompentcy, or just plain sloppy work.

    joe (ab822e)

  8. Not like Soros, who shatters currencies as witha club.

    narciso (28df0c)

  9. Polls show this is not going over well with the public…

    …. unless you get your information from Fox News where they reverse the poll results.

    Kman (5576bf)

  10. #5, Charles; if you think millions of unemployed Americans are going to take the side of the spoiled brats of education, you are delusional.

    You also spew the propaganda that the teacher’s unions are going to give up their bargaining rights. That is not true. They will still be able to bargain for salaries. But the state will no longer deduct their union dues from their paychecks, and that is what has thugs like Richard Trumka all in a twit. When teachers realize how much more they take home when they don’t pay union dues, many will refuse to pay those dues.

    Why is Wisconsin even a “closed shop” when it comes to teachers? Why can’t a teacher decide if they want to belong to a union, or not, and not be forced to join as a requirement of the job? If the unions do such a damn good job representing their membership, membership would not be forced on teachers as they would want to join.

    Every state in the nation needs to be a right-to-work state. Wisconsin is not.

    And no surprise that you would link to a commie website like you did.

    retire05 (63d9af)

  11. /charles –

    Polls show this is not going over well with the public and the GOP will pay dearly for this

    .

    I hope you are not relying on the poll posted at the Huff Post. We may listen to faux news – but we can at least recognize propaganda coming from either side. If you think that oll is accurate, then i have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell – though it may be become ocean front property with global warming

    joe (ab822e)

  12. Polls show this is not going over well with the public and the GOP will pay dearly for this.

    If you really believed this, you wouldn’t oppose democracy. You’d simply await the next election, where democrats campaigning to go back to the union bloat would win.

    Wisconsin chose this route last November. Get over it. I think the democrats will pay dearly for this. The reason they tried to claim these tactics were the Tea Party’s is because these tactics are incredibly ugly and cost support. Now the middle resents the left because they see the union thugs cling to power by shutting down the democratic process… this issue is far more important than the underlying union one.

    If you think this is harming Walker politically you are crazy.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  13. Charles

    > The unions are willing to accept cuts but not to give up their ability to negotiate

    They have the ability to negotiate. What they are seeking is a privileged and state-sanctioned seat at the table. but they can organize just like any concerned citizens. They can protest (but not strike). and they can lobby. and if they don’t like what the government offers, they can vote and campaign for candidates that will change the policy, just like everyone else. what they are fighting for is a special privileged position, above what any mere parent or taxpayer gets. And the reason why the national dems care is because these unions are a major source of fund-raising so this is hitting them where it hurts.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  14. There is another, crucial, difference between the Wisconsin protests and the Boston Tea Party; the dumping of the tea gave all sides a way out of an untenable position. The authorities would not allow the tea to land without payment of the tax. the Colonists would not pay the tax. The authorities would not allow the ships to leave the harbor without unloading the tea. Dumping the tea let the ships leave, gave the authorities an out, and avoided paying the tax. Nobody won everything they wanted, but nobody had to back down entirely.

    If this applies to the situation with the doctors’ notes in Wisconsin, I have to admit that I don’t see how.

    C. S. P. Schofield (71781e)

  15. Charles – Wisconsin had a poll early last November. The Dems and the public unions didn’t do so well in that poll.
    Several different commenters on the pro-Waler rallies have noted that there are many union members rallying in favor of Walker.
    On one bus from northern Wisconsin going to the rally almost a quarter of the people were union members including six Teamsters. Seems Trumka doesn’t speak for all of his membership.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  16. One thing I learned in my first job is that the worst offense you could commit is to embarrass your boss in the eyes of his clients. I think having videos of your employees using their professional status to gratuitously breaking the law during work hours plastered all over the Internet qualifies.

    Socratease (c0f2fa)

  17. Note to teachers:
    Do you want Collective Bargaining, or Tenure?

    Given that choice, the taxpayers who are paying the bills, would say “You can have one, but not both!”

    And, the same extends to other Public Employees:
    Collective Bargaining, or Civil Service.

    But us old Jacksonian’s believe that a new executive should sweep the halls clean, which makes the bureaucracy responsive to the elected leaders and the wishes of the voters.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  18. CSP

    well, i am enough of a history geek that i don’t even CARE if it applies to this situation. lol

    i haven’t heard that thesis before. do you have like a book you got that from you could pass on to me.

    i will eagerly confess i know less about the revolution than i do about the civil war and reconstruction. i spent several years on a research project on the meaning of the 14th amendment, and so that is where my knowledge comes from.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  19. Given that these “doctors” were handing out sick notes to any walk-up, someone could have collected a sick note from every one of them, which would identify all of them.

    Too late now, but file the idea away for future use.

    LarryD (feb78b)

  20. Larry

    i suspect you still could do that. you should email althouse or someone else in the region, and make the suggestion.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  21. The more Democrats expose themselves as greedy self-serving, and dishonest, the more Independent voters turn to the TEA Party and the GOP for sane fiscal policies.

    Rasmussen’s poll results are unambiguous. Selected headlines follow.

    48% Back GOP Governor in Wisconsin Spat, 38% Side with Unions.

    Generic Congressional Ballot: Republicans 46%, Democrats 37%.

    Congressional Favorability Ratings Up for Boehner, Down for Pelosi, Reid, McConnell.

    Obama’s leadership Ratings Fall to a New Low.

    56% Favor Repeal of Health Care Plan.

    ropelight (d30316)

  22. The MSM frames the issue as the teacher’s union losing the right to collective bargaining. FOX and the rest of the non-left media should frame the question as: Why do you oppose Governor Walker’s efforts to bring fairness to Wisconsin and have it as a right to work state. Those folks who aren’t paying much attention to the issue would have a completely different take on the situation.

    PC14 (4a4ed3)

  23. To extend the “tea” metaphor, come Friday if this issue isn’t settled, over a thousand teachers will be thrown overboard.

    The state of WI has until Friday to restructure their debt. If the current measure the Dems are running from fails to pass, they will have to fire teachers.

    A shame the union doesn’t seem to care…

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  24. if I had one of those giant cookies from Great American Cookie Company at the mall Mr. Jacobs could have a piece and Mr. Aaron and Another Drew person could have a piece and I could have two pieces cause of it’s my cookie but not union whores they can go get their own damn cookie

    happyfeet (ec2b07)

  25. I doubt that UW Medical, staffed overwhelmingly by leftists, ITSELF gives a rat’s about the fraudulent doctor’s notes issued (yes) openly and notoriously by its own physicians in the street.

    BUT,

    I’ll bet that UW Medical’s LIABILITY INSURER cares a very great deal about it (unless UW is self-insured?). I’m guessing said insurer made a few phone calls about 45 minutes before we all saw the press release from UW about the forthcoming whitewash, er, I mean, investigation.

    Mitch (890cbf)

  26. rope

    i find most of the time the people in ethics commissions do not look at this as ideologically as you suppose.

    but i am a long way from wisconsin, so i could be wrong about them.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  27. but not union whores they can go get their own damn cookie

    Comment by happyfeet

    LOL. If you pay taxes, you still bought their cookie, though.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  28. that’s infuriating

    happyfeet (ec2b07)

  29. And if the government lets you keep more of your cookie, that’s a gift. You should be thanking them.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  30. Yes, polls are siding with the workers and not the government of Gov. Walker – Koch puppet.
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-22-poll-public-unions-wisconsin_N.htm

    Unless you of course listen to Rasmussen, statistically the most biased poll and proven the most statistically inaccurate in the last election.

    Charles (3c876d)

  31. This is a combo of posts on the other Wis. thread. I’m puttiong it here because I want people to see it. if you don’t like it, don’t leave town, just vote to have it taken off. ;-)

    It has been brought to my attention that a sufficient number of people reading this blog indeed have next to zero recollection of important events and popular culture references from the 60′s. So look at this before you read the spoof. The original is about the 1968 Dem. convention in Chicago:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56A1bOrK0vI&feature=related

    Wisconsin
    (To the tune “Chicago” by Graham Nash, a good ol’ protest song)

    So the Dems have left the state
    And they just don’t seem to care
    Won’t you please come to Wisconsin just to vote
    In a land that’s known for freedom
    How can such a thing be fair
    Won’t you please come up from Rockford with the vote that you can bring

    We can change the state
    Rearrange the state
    It’s budget- will get better

    You union thugs sit yourselves down
    There’s nothing for you here
    Won’t you please leave for Chicago, go back home
    We voted for Scott Walker
    And he’s the boss around here
    Won’t you please go to Chicago or else join up on our side

    We can change the state
    Rearrange the state
    It needs it- if you believe in voting
    It needs it- if you believe in elections
    It needs it- if you believe in budgets
    Those union rules and regulations
    Who needs them, send them out the door

    One day our gov’ment will get to work
    I hope the day comes soon
    If those dems come to Wisconsin, show their face
    From the bottom of the State House
    To the mount of Bascom Hill
    Won’t you please come to Wisconsin, or someone else will take your place

    We can change the state
    Rearrange the state
    It’s budget- will get better

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  32. Walker doesn’t even know what Koch’s voice sounds like, Charles. When he gets a call from him, he treats him like a random supporter.

    Keep chanting Koch puppet though. That doesn’t look like a ‘repeat a lie often enough’ attempt at all. Nosiree. You come across as completely honest and sincere!

    BTW, might want to read your link. It has a table proving Rasmussen was not the most in error. And it also explains the error sometimes favored democrats. And that most polls overestimated Republican performance. In fact, NYT claims the most accurate polls were 3.3 percent off, and Rasmussen were 4 percent off.

    And it’s the lefty shill NYT you’re linking. Pretty hilarious that you think this is a good retort to the massive margin showing the nation stands more with Walker than the unions.

    But at any rate, I do think elections are the correct way to decide this issue. You don’t. You think if you lose an election your party should destroy the legislative process altogether, and then promise to win the next election, expecting that to have consequences.

    You hate the republic.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  33. Also Charles, 538′s argument is only compelling to those who don’t remember how long 538 claims the November election would favor democrats (they moved to reality just before the election, as all left tilted polls do, and then claim they were accurate).

    Rasmussen didn’t move as much. Yeah, they were a few points off, but clearly the polls predicting a landslide GOP win in November earlier were more valuable information than the ones saying so when it was so obvious and inevitable.

    Cherry picked analysis meant only to bolster the future ability for left leaning polls to be effective propaganda? Is that worth your time? The only poll that really counts is the ballot box, and let me remind you: YOU LOST. The voters gave Walker a mandate. Your insistence that some poll disagrees is not relevant, because we practice representative democracy.

    Lemme guess, polls will swing to the right just before the election in 2012. Maybe we should just stick to the elections.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  34. i don’t know why we are debating the rasmussen poll anyway. its a national poll. i would rather know what people think in wisconsin where they have to deal with this firsthand.

    in related polling news, there is so much stupid about this poll, i don’t know where to begin:

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/146183/Americans-Say-Reagan-Greatest-President.aspx?loc=interstitialskip

    No, republicans, reagan was not the greatest president ever. and no democrats, clinton wasn’t the greatest, either.

    and neither was kennedy mainly because he didn’t live long enough to achieve greatness.

    republicans come out a little better by putting washington and lincon as their 2nd and 3rd best presidents, respectively. and even naming a recent democrat, kennedy as fourth best. but no, Bush Jr. was not the 5th best either. he is better than most dems would rank him but 5th is just overboard.

    and anyone who thinks obama is the 3rd best president, ahead of both roosevelt and lincoln, is an idiot. there, i said it.

    of course althouse thinks that for a lot of people they just named the only president they could think of. which is probably true and even more depressing.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  35. Charles-
    Isn’t it great that when a “journoList” called Walker and faked being Koch, that the Gov said the same things in “private” that he does in public? I’m sure that is very shocking for some.

    Here are a couple of good links, especially the second that show how much more money multiple unions gave in Wisconsin maore than the Koch brothers.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/best_of_the_web_today.html

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/02/028438.php

    I just thought of a new game we could play, called “Name that Alinsky!” Whenever somebody posts a disingenuous comment we could tag it with which Alinsky principle by number (#) it is an example of. Maybe points could be awarded and make it a competition. It would be educational.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  36. MDinphilly… Salute! +200. Great takeoff.
    BTW, where in Philly? I’m about 45 miles from the city, out near Amish country.

    either orr (6713b4)

  37. Charles – Your first comment was in reaction to teachers having the opportunity to vote on some of the changes and passing on the chance.

    You gave no indication you were talking about a national poll such as the Gallup one you linked, rather than a Wisconsin specific poll. Try to be a little more specific in the future. Do you have the crosstabs for the Gallup poll?

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  38. Isn’t it great that when a “journoList” called Walker and faked being Koch, that the Gov said the same things in “private” that he does in public? I’m sure that is very shocking for some.

    Isn’t it great that Koch, a non-Wisconsonian, can get the Governor of Wisconsin on the line to jaw about union-busting strategy, whereas one of Walker’s own constituents has a snowball’s chance in hell of getting that treatment?

    Money talks in politics — at least under the GOP regime.

    Kman (5576bf)

  39. Oh, good Allah. Kman, quit being a troll. This entire Administration is chock-full of Chicago graft artists. To try to paint Republicans as being motivated via “money talks in politics” is just silly.

    Go stalk Aaron quietly, would you?

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  40. Isn’t it great that Koch, a non-Wisconsonian, can get the Governor of Wisconsin on the line to jaw about union-busting strategy, whereas one of Walker’s own constituents has a snowball’s chance in hell of getting that treatment?

    Prove it. It seems like someone who wasn’t Koch was able to get in touch with Walker, after all. They lied about their name, but it didn’t seem all that difficult.

    And note, all the ‘union busting’ and other accusations now pinned on Walker were coming out of the projecting leftist’s mouth. Walker simply politely repeated what he says in public, and clearly has no idea what Koch talks like, sounds like, etc.

    Proof positive that Walker is not a Koch stooge at all.

    Imagine if Breitbart’s videos went that way. Someone just talks generally about their political ends, the other side does nothing to promote them, and then we’re told the innocent guy is now a stooge of the guy he didn’t know.

    Anyway, it’s a hard truth that extremely powerful people have more access to government. That’s not the ideal, but to claim Walker is somehow especially bad about this when he just blandly repeats his public talking points * to someone he clearly doesn’t know * is ridiculous.

    Remember, unions gave a hell of a lot more cash to politicians than Koch did. Than anyone did. And they get far more access and power than any other organization. They want to deflect that point, but they can’t because we’re out of the money they crave anyway.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  41. Anyway, it’s a hard truth that extremely powerful people have more access to government.

    More access = more influence. Oh, well. Que sera sera, right?

    Kman (5576bf)

  42. Kman, quit being a troll Jester

    Making one comment then going into ignoring mode again. It takes a certain kind of person to take a legitimate point, ignore it, and turn it into something about as bright as the dark side of the moon.

    At least Walker is in his office in the same state as his constituents. (So there!!! I’m sticking my tongue out at you now, isn’t this being sophisticated!!!)

    either orr- just inside the city limits across from Cheltenham. I have a friend who works out on the Strasburg RR.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  43. No. It’s Que será, será.

    carlitos (01d172)

  44. At least Walker is in his office in the same state as his constituents.

    Zing!

    He’s answering the phone to someone who claims to be someone the left says is really really bad, and to prove it, they pretend to be him saying stuff they don’t like.

    But he is actually showing up to work, and his agenda won the election. Hmmmmm.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  45. An exception-

    More access=More influence

    Actually not at all. As Dustin pointed out, “getting access” to Walker got no more than the average citizen from Wisconsin would have gotten in a visit to his office- instead of a locked door.

    Lets see, on a national level, how often do union bosses get in to see Obama?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  46. Que sera sera, right?

    No, it’s a perfectly legitimate issue, but it’s hilarious you think this is a great example when it’s in the context of public unions being a much more problematic example.

    Walker doesn’t change his view on anything for Koch, and clearly doesn’t even know the guy. He actively contradicts fake-Koch’s insistence he do x,y,z, saying they are bad ideas. Some influence.

    Facts aren’t your strong suit, Kman.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  47. This is the kind of think Beck wouldn’t even dream of doing. Imagine Beck posing as Dunn or Soros and calling Obama to say ‘Let’s be commies and infiltrate Tea Parties and get violent!’ and then when Obama says ‘I don’t think that’s a good idea, but thanks for the support and [bla bla talking points]‘ Beck plays the tape as some kind of proof.

    It’s absolutely stupid.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  48. But he is actually showing up to work, and his agenda won the election.

    Banning collective bargaining wasn’t on his agenda prior to the election. No mention of it. Not once.

    And for those who are saying that Walker was talking to “fake Koch” just as he would any private citizen, do you really think he would divulge strategy to a private citizen? Here is Walker talking about luring the Dems back to the capital under false pretenses:

    I would be willing to sit down and talk to him, the assembly Democrat leader, plus the other two Republican leaders—talk, not negotiate and listen to what they have to say if they will in turn—but I’ll only do it if all 14 of them will come back and sit down in the state assembly. They can recess it… the reason for that, we’re verifying it this afternoon, legally, we believe, once they’ve gone into session, they don’t physically have to be there. If they’re actually in session for that day, and they take a recess, the 19 Senate Republicans could then go into action and they’d have quorum because it’s turned out that way. So we’re double checking that. If you heard I was going to talk to them that’s the only reason why. We’d only do it if they came back to the capitol with all 14 of them….

    Cat’s out of the bag now, Governor Walker.

    So let’s not pretend he was talking in the same manner he would publicly.

    Kman (5576bf)

  49. Also, let’s consider the alternative. Had Walker said ‘Hey, you aren’t Koch!’ instead of the banal reaction he had, the left would be saying it was proof Walker was very familiar with Koch, proving he’s the stooge they said.

    It was yet another example of an unfair test. No matter what Walker does, the left says it proves he’s a Koch Stooge. This is actually Walker’s best possible reaction, not knowing Koch, contradicting him, and repeating his public POV in private, and they say it’s a horrible abuse of power proving how koch has soooo much influence that Walker actually… talked to a fake Koch at all.

    It’s so bad I’m surprised leftists aren’t claiming this was a setup all along to make Walker look good.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  50. So let’s not pretend he was talking in the same manner he would publicly.

    I don’t get it. So what? Walker notes that if he can get the legislature back to the assembly they have a qourum. Are you seriously pretending this is a non-publicaly known strategy? This is really the first you’re hearing of it?

    Yes, Walker wants the democrats to return to work because he can then proceed with his agenda. Thank you Captain Einstein.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  51. Banning collective bargaining wasn’t on his agenda prior to the election. No mention of it. Not once.

    Kman, can you document this at all?

    And, again with the lie that the bill would “ban collective bargaining.” It restricts CB to wages only, not non-cash benefits, and even THAT pullback doesn’t apply to police and firefighters.

    Next lie in 3, 2 …

    Mitch (890cbf)

  52. “Our members oppose taking away their rights to collective bargaining, so they would definitely raise their voices against it,” Christina Brey, Wisconsin Education Association Council

    The way the proposal would work is we would take the choice out of the collective bargaining process -Ryan Murray, Walker’s Campaign advisor

    Kman, were these said before or after the election? Do you care that you just told a lie?

    There is no way to reduce union’s permanent and intractable taxpayer theft problem without changing their unfair bargaining process. Walker campaigned on this, and the voters elected him to pursue an agenda of fixing the union crisis. They entrusted him with power and discretion that democrats are trying to thwart using unethical anti-democratic means.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  53. Are you seriously pretending this is a non-publicaly known strategy?

    Even Walker wasn’t sure it would work legally. He said so. He’s talking about having the Dems return, then recessing, then having the Republicans “go into action” with a quorum even though the Dems aren’t physically there. No, that wasn’t a publicly known strategy — although, thanks to Walker, it is now.

    Kman (5576bf)

  54. Glad to see that investigative journalism continues apace. I was googling “Meghan McCain breasts Twitter” busy working and got distracted for a while, but apparently “Koch” is a “billionaire right wing activist,” and not the former mayor of New York City.

    Fake pimps and hos – OUT!
    Fake right wing billionaires – IN!

    carlitos (01d172)

  55. My prior quotes are from August 30, 2010.

    “The premise is still that they want to bypass collective bargaining and adopt wages and working conditions through the budget process.”

    -Richard Abelson, head of the local AFSCME chapter, October 29, 2010

    Kman is a liar. This was a well known facet of the election. The democrats campaigned against, the republicans for, and the voters picked the republicans, so the democrats destroyed the legislative process.

    This is the truth.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  56. Kman, can you document this at all?

    Prove a negative? That would require an exhaustive search. Nope, I can’t.

    But others with better resources have.

    Kman (5576bf)

  57. Kman thinks he can prove a negative on the power of his word alone, despite his track record of serial dishonesty and illiteracy here.

    And even the most casual effort to learn the truth would have uncovered the facts. Politifact, where Kman probably got his talking point, even cites stories including my quotes when it claims they never happened.

    The left cares about power, not truth or an informed democracy, or even democracy of any kind.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  58. WOW, I didn’t read 56 before my 57. I just can tell that Kman’s a lazy researcher parroting debunked points.

    Kman, I proved you wrong. Admit it. Have a shred of honor.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  59. Hell, if you even read your own freaking link and followed its links minimally, you’d have seen the quotes I provided.

    Jeez you suck so much.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  60. Hell, if you even read your own freaking link and followed its links minimally, you’d have seen the quotes I provided

    Yes, the quotes you provided were debunked, because none of them discussed the sweeping elimination of collective bargaining rights that Walker eventually proposed after he was elected.

    Kman (5576bf)

  61. “Ya don’t tug on Superman’s cape.”

    Bigfoot (8096f2)

  62. “Banning collective bargaining wasn’t on his agenda prior to the election.”

    Kman – He’s not banning it now either, just limiting it to wages. Try reading about the subject you are commenting on.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  63. Sorry Kman, you clearly didn’t read the politifact link you provided.

    “I campaigned on (the proposals in the budget repair bill for Wisconsin) all throughout the election. Anybody who says they are shocked on this has been asleep for the past two years.”

    That’s true, as my quotes prove. Everyone knew that collective bargaining was at stake if Walker and his party were given the power, via election, to pursue budget repair in this direction.

    Politifact says:

    It seemed to us like the first public hint Walker gave that he was considering eliminating many union bargaining rights was at a Dec. 7, 2010 Milwaukee Press Club forum, some four weeks after the election.

    Hint! They say there was NO HINT AT ALL before December, despite the quotes I have provided proving this was discussed in August and October.

    I see you have moved the goalposts from ‘hint’ to ‘sweeping elimination’. You probably haven’t even read the quotes I provided, proving that this was in fact an issue under great discussion prior to the election.

    The voters put Walker in power. They knew collective bargaining was among the issues at stake. I have proven it. Kman takes this proof and moves the goalposts because he has no honor.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  64. He’s not banning it now either, just limiting it to wages. Try reading about the subject you are commenting on.

    Comment by daleyrocks

    And this is an important point. Kman now requires Walker promising to do something he isn’t even attempting. That’s how he’s shifted the goalposts.

    But his link said ‘no hint’. His link has been debunked before he even posted it.\

    Admit your error, Kman.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  65. Rezko.

    madawaskan (fd190b)

  66. The patient privacy aspect is an intriguing area. A number of years ago, I was in a crowded room when someone collapsed. Paramedics were called, and several of us took steps to keep the room as clear as possible (it was the entryway to the building at a time when a large shift of employees was leaving, so there were a lot of people with no choice but to pass through). The paramedics arrived and did basic work checking her pulse and breathing and so forth while she sat in the room… but they would not ask her any questions about her medical history until they got her to the privacy of the ambulance. They said they were prohibited by HIPAA from doing so where other people could hear.

    It’s been awhile since I looked at HIPAA, but my basic recollection is that it requires doctors to take affirmative steps to insure that any medical information is disclosed in private; it’s not an optional thing that’s up to the patient.

    PatHMV (77f849)

  67. Kman is a liar
    Not only that, but a disingenuous one, too.

    This is really very simple, which is why the left is squirming every which way to do anything but discuss the facts of the situation.

    The public employee unions of Wisconsin negotiate their contracts with the people of Wisconsin, in the person of their elected representatives. The public employee unions are not fighting “big corporations”, they are fighting the people of their state. The people of the state elected Walker knowing what his plan was. They elected a Republican legislature knowing what the plan was. Now Walker and company are caring out what they said they would do (unlike some pols.)

    Up until now, the Wisconsin taxpayer, Dem or Republican pays taxes to the state which pays the Wisconsin workers. Automatically pay goes to the unions whether the individual mamber likes it or not. Millions and Millions of dollars get put into political uses, almost exclusively pro-Democrat. The people of Wisconsin decided they didn’t want to be forced to donate to the Democratic party via the unions anymore. The Dems and unions don’t like it. Since they can’t stop it by legitimate means, they pull a stunt and hope the Repubs will lose their resolve. There is no secret that Walker will use to get the dems into the state and trick them into a vote. If he has to he will have the State Police grab the first one that crosses into Wisconsin- to get their paycheck since they made a new law that state senators need to pick up their pay checks in person. If they hold out too much longer they will start the session and vote on non-fiscal legislation, including new voter ID laws and all manner of things the Dems don’t like. No secret plans neceassary, no siree, not one.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  68. If tomorrow Aaron admitted the reason Kman’s been following him around is because he’s really Aaron’s elaborate effort to discredit the left with a fake deranged leftist, I would actually find that to make more sense than Kman acting the way he does.

    So often, whatever he’s said is debunked instantly. Softball meatloaf pitch, one after another, knocked out of the park. I just realize Aaron wouldn’t stoop to that, and there really are mentally ill people out there.

    If Kman thinks he’s doing the leftist cause anything but minor harm (minor because no one cares about internet comments) that’s the craziest part of his act.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  69. Dustin:

    Your points are all addressed in the Politifact piece. I don’t think you’re actually reading it, or perhaps not understanding it in context.

    MD in Philly:

    Kman is a liar
    Not only that, but a disingenuous one, too.

    Sorry, but that made me laugh.

    Kman (5576bf)

  70. Sorry, but that made me laugh

    Why are you sorry? It was supposed to be funny.

    Going back into ignore mode.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  71. Your points are all addressed in the Politifact piece. I don’t think you’re actually reading it, or perhaps not understanding it in context.

    Liar.

    I read it and even quoted its central claim and thesis, and pointed out my proof that it was wrong. I even proved that I followed its links (how else would I know what they said?).

    You’re projecting in an effort to throw a smoke screen of confusion up and hide your dishonesty.

    Your link said there was no hint before December,and quotes someone in December saying something weaker than the quotes I show from August and October. I laid out my case with evidence and encourage everyone to click your link and read my quotes and tell how I’m wrong.

    Politifact is shilling for the unions. I proved it. Your claim was false. Public union collective bargaining was a frequently referenced aspect of budget repair, you liar.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  72. Public union collective bargaining was a frequently referenced aspect of budget repair, you liar.

    Yes, but the question wasn’t whether Walker referenced public union collective bargaining before the election, but whether he talked about effectively curtailing it altogether.

    I asserted the latter; you challenged me to support that assertion; I did that.

    If you dislike my source, or my source’s reasoning, or you want to call them “liars” or “shills”, that’s fine. I stand by them and their thorough methodology.

    Kman (5576bf)

  73. “The difference of course was that the Tea Tax was manifestly unjust as taxation without representation…”

    It wasn’t unjust because the colonials had no representation in Parliament, it was unjust because the Colonials were being taxed to pay for a colonial system that benfitted the English Crown and didn’t benefit the Colonials.

    Much like the lowlife Democrats taxing me to pay for the medical care of people who in turn vote for Democrats, or forcing me to buy health insurance policies against my will.

    This is unjust whether I nominally have a representative in Congress or not. Anyway, “my” represenative in Congress is John Garamendi, who doesn’t represent me in any way, shape or form.

    What the British Crown was doing in the 1770′s would have been tyrannical and unjust even if the colonials had had representatives in Parliament, and ditto for now.

    As far as this nonsense in Wisconsin goes…since taxpayers can never go on strike and refuse to pay the salaries of government officials and employees, then government officials and employees should also never be allowed to strike, and any that do so should be immediately fired, just as any taxpayer who refused to pay taxes for the purpose of paying the salaries of government workers would be immediately arrested, tried and sent to prison.

    If the leeches who work for government don’t like that arrangement, then they can quit and go find a new job, one where their salary isn’t funded by seizing people’s money at the point of a gun.

    Reagan had the right idea when the air traffic controllers tried to strike, which was to fire ‘em all.

    Dave Surls (149e0b)

  74. I asserted the latter; you challenged me to support that assertion; I did that.

    With a link to Politifact saying something that wasn’t true? That you didn’t read?

    Yes, but the question wasn’t whether Walker referenced public union collective bargaining before the election, but whether he talked about effectively curtailing it altogether.

    Wow. Must be nice to burn strawmen.

    Our members oppose taking away their rights to collective bargaining, so they would definitely raise their voices against it,” Christina Brey, Wisconsin Education Association Council

    You lose.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  75. BTW, did democrats campaign on the promise to shut down their assembly?

    It seems that Kman is being quite hard on Walker. He says “the question wasn’t whether Walker referenced public union collective bargaining” because, indeed, people were talking about collective bargaining being curtailed. Walker’s people were talking about it. Walker’s opponents were saying it. It was a major debate.

    So Walker has no mandate even though voters picked him when the argument against was, and I quote “Our members oppose taking away their rights to collective bargaining”, but Kman isn’t complaining about the democrats taking actions on this issue that haven’t been done in this state in generations, for which there were no promises.

    It’s almost as though he is a pathological liar.

    Kman, you have an open invitation to apologize to me.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  76. ME: Yes, but the question wasn’t whether Walker referenced public union collective bargaining before the election, but whether he talked about effectively curtailing it altogether.

    YOU: Wow. Must be nice to burn strawmen.

    See comment #48 in which I write “Banning collective bargaining wasn’t on his agenda prior to the election. No mention of it. Not once”

    And by the way, I fail to see how a comment by a teacher has any bearing on what WALKER had on his agenda during his campaign.

    Kman (5576bf)

  77. And by the way, I fail to see how a comment by a teacher has any bearing on what WALKER had on his agenda during his campaign.

    You’re trying to set the terms of the debate in a lame and ad hoc fashion, but the fact remains that this was an issue that the voters were aware of when they elected the Republicans.

    OK, you want proof Walker promised to do something he isn’t even trying to do. Your own evidence was completely wrong. I rely on quotes from both political sides to prove this was an issue in the election, and I realize that nothing I prove will ever stop you from shilling up some way in which it’s not good enough.

    Yes, your comment in 48 was the straw man I was referring to. At least you’re reading your own comments.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  78. I gave the definitive explanation about all that anyone needs to know (because I said so ;-) ) at comment #67. Before being governor Walker was county executive for the Milwaukee area, if I understand correctly, and his opinions on government worker unions were apparently well known. One of the points of his gubernatorial (what a word) campaign was that he knew hoe statewide unions hurt local governments. It is easy to get a pro-left-cause crowd in Madison. It looks impressive, but it’s inconsequential compared to the opinion of the rest of the state, when the elected government remembers who elected them and why. To quote: “Elections have consequences (except when we lose we’re still supposed to get our way!)”

    To paraphrase, “If the law is on your side, pound the law, if the facts are on your side, pound the facts, if neither on on your side, pound the table. If pounding the table doesn’t work, keep pounding something, because, just like war, the discussion isn’t over until one side stops.”

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  79. mmm, so kman is arguing that it is wrong to do something you didn’t explicitly and exactly campaign on.

    So i am sure he is denouncing Obama for allowing the mandate to have been put into obamacare, right? i mean hillary proposed one and obama specifically mocked the idea and said he was opposed to it. on ellen degeres’ show. so are you going to denounce him, kman?

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  80. “Yes, but the question wasn’t whether Walker referenced public union collective bargaining before the election, but whether he talked about effectively curtailing it altogether.”

    Kman – Wrong again.

    You claimed he said campaigned on planning to eliminate it.

    Your link was to a Politifact article which did not even go that far: “Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker says he campaigned on his budget repair plan, including curtailing collective bargaining”

    You really need to keep track of where you’ve moved those goal posts.

    Another fail.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  81. this was an issue that the voters were aware of when they elected the Republicans

    What was an issue? Budgetary problems? The argument that public sector unions should make wage and health care concessions? Of course voters were aware of those things. I never claimed otherwise!

    But the draconian measure of removing public sector collecting bargaining rights altogether was never on the table during Walker’s campaign.

    Yes, your comment in 48 was the straw man I was referring to

    So now that I’ve supported what I said in #48, you’re telling me that what I said in #48 was a “strawman”.

    You crack me up.

    Kman (5576bf)

  82. As I said in #78, the person in question will keep posting something, anything, because to stop would admit defeat. As long as he keeps posting, no matter how pointless the comment, he shows he refuses to let go of his delusions. He is good at taking up time, because if you claim 2+2=4, he will find a way to argue about that.

    Back to ignore mode.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  83. So i am sure he is denouncing Obama for allowing the mandate to have been put into obamacare, right?

    Well, I was never for Obama’s health care plan, unless it involved the public option. But that didn’t survive the Senate. So we’re left with what is euphemistically called “Obamacare”, which is better than nothing.

    So, yeah, in that sense, I denounce it.

    Kman (5576bf)

  84. This just in – kmart’s an ignorant twat. In other shocking news, water is wet.

    Dmac (c50897)

  85. Kman

    good. do you also denounce the taxes he keeps imposing on us? he promise not to do that, too.

    how about his promise to let us keep our insurance. that isn’t happening, either.

    i would love to see you hold obama to the same standards you would a republican.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  86. Kmart must be hallucinating, again.

    Charles is Willie the racist midget hilljack Yelverton, by the way.

    Carlitos – Koch brothers AR the new leftist bogeymen.

    JD (b41a4e)

  87. He is not holding anyone to a standard, AW. HE is just attempting to divert, deflect, and be otherwise disingenuous.

    JD (b41a4e)

  88. An MD lying on a medical note is not different than a Lawyer lying under oath.

    It is grounds for losing your license in either profession..

    Torquemada (2a42d3)

  89. This is quite a little frenzy you’ve got going here.

    “The first thing we do, let’s kill all the doctors”…..or something like that. By all means, go get’em. (My apologies for continuing the wrong interpretation long given the Bard’s line that I’ve approprited here.)

    And by all means don’t feel sorry for that asst. AG who just lost his job in Indiana for tweeting that live bullets should be used on those, as Aaron calls them, “lawless” folks protesting at the state house in Wisconsin.

    You want lawless? I bet you could not bear enough cognitive dissonance to read all of Jake Tapper’s book “Down and Dirty” about the Brooks Brothers Riot in Miami. Now that was LAWLESS, except the preznit called and told ‘em good job.

    But I digress. Some people will lose jobs in this mess, and I don’t mean the ones Gov. Walker says he’ll fire if he doesn’t get his way. I expect this little room will cheer for the losses suffered by those on the other “team” and cry for their own.

    Is this a great country, or what?

    BTW: Walker is toast.

    Larry Reilly (0e1b2d)

  90. Mawy is an imbecile.

    It is funny how kmart and it’s ilk wail about the Koch Brothers, but heart them some Soros, and don’t mind Trumka having daily contact with the White House, and weekly visits.

    JD (b41a4e)

  91. Coming to your level:
    Uh, JD is a poo-poo head.

    Larry Reilly (0e1b2d)

  92. When you take your meds without throwing a temper tantrum, do the orderlies give you a special treat?

    JD (b41a4e)

  93. ________________________________________________

    I think we’re being cruel (CRUEL, I say!) towards the noble, selfless, humble and heroic public sector workers of Wisconsin. Primarily, the people in that state’s public school system.

    news.yahoo.com, Mark Whittington, Feb 23, 2011:

    Teachers comprise the core of the public sector employees who are participating in the sickout and protest in Wisconsin. A useful question to ask would be how do these teachers actually perform their jobs? The answer: not so well. It seems Wisconsin school children perform below par in math and reading.

    A recent study by the Department of Education concluded about students’ math skills in Wisconsin that “only 31 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned a ‘proficient’ rating while another 8 percent earned an ‘advanced’ rating. The other 61 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned ratings below ‘proficient,’ including 40 percent who earned a rating of “basic” and 21 percent who earned a rating of “below basic.”

    The same study had some bad news about reading proficiency. “Only 32 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned a ‘proficient’ rating while another 2 percent earned an ‘advanced’ rating. The other 66 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned ratings below ‘proficient,’ including 44 percent who earned a rating of ‘basic’ and 22 percent who earned a rating of ‘below basic.’”

    In the meantime, education costs per student in Wisconsin have exploded, from $4,596 per student in 1998 to $10,791 per student in 2008. Wisconsin public school teachers earn an average of $75,587 in salaries and benefits, a very healthy level of compensation for people who work nine months out of the year.

    It’s odd how a hierarchy dominated by people of the left (ie, a high percentage of folks in the public school system throughout America are reliably of liberal/pro-Democrat-Party persuasion) should be — in the eyes of all those who believe education is sorely lacking in today’s era — equated with something that is not terribly effective.

    The answer?

    Public education needs MORE money! Yea, that will do the trick. Public schools deserve more funding. Yep, that is the obvious solution.

    I say we stingy taxpayers should want to give even more of our hard-earned dollars to government-employee unions. We should all want to spend far more on the salaries of educators in the classroom! The return on our “investment” will be guaranteed.

    Mark (411533)

  94. Actually Larry, when there was a budget crunch back in the 90′s, then Gov. Thompson gave the choice to the teacher’s union, “Do you want to take cuts all across the board, or do you want to axe roughly 5,000+ (of course those will be teachers with the least seniority)?” The teacher’s union said, “Cut the 5,500+”!

    So, Walker is trying to not cut anybody, assuming all those teachers are there because they’re needed for the children.

    BTW: Walker will be toasted, as in, “To our governor!”

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  95. ZOMG walker and the koch brothers are in cahoots trying to keep the black man down

    /charles

    DohBiden (984d23)

  96. “Mawy is an imbecile.”

    Yeah, kinda comes with the territory when you’re a leftoid.

    Dave Surls (0209ea)

  97. His level:
    Dave Surls eats his boogers.

    Larry Reilly (0e1b2d)

  98. For those who at least remember the 70′s, taking into account that Dem state senators going AWOL has spread to at least on more state (Indiana).

    Dems on the Run
    (to Paul McCartney’s “Band on the Run”)

    Stuck inside this state house, incumbent forever
    Never seeing power once again, like you,
    Walker, you, Walker, you

    We have got to get out of here
    We need to do it right away
    Before the gov’nor finds us here
    And makes us take that vote today
    We have got to get out of here

    Well the engine started with a mighty roar as we drove into the sun
    And the last one said to no one there, “This is not my idea of fun”.
    Dems on the run, Dems on the run
    Scott Walker is my man with a better plan said nearly everyone
    But the Dems on the run, Dems on the run
    Dems on the run, Dems on the run

    Union members and students too, even communists joined the fun
    And the people there were singing everywhere to help the Dems on the run
    Dems on the run, Dems on the run
    Scott Walker is my man with a better plan said nearly everyone
    But the Dems on the run, Dems on the run,
    Dems on the run, Dems on the run

    Well, the night was falling as the Midwest world began to settle down
    In MadTown they’re looking for us everywhere but we never will be found
    Dems on the run, Dems on the run

    Indiana too, feelin’ mighty blue
    Asked is there room for more?
    For more Dems on the run, Dems on the run
    Dems on the run, Dems on the run

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  99. Larry

    Is there a point to your rambling?

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  100. Thanks to Scott Walker and Jeffrey Cox, core “tea-party” aims have become a little clearer. Will blue-collar Catholic Democrats and populist-minded independents notice? I suspect that they will and that American politics is in for another big sea-change.

    Angeleno (2774d5)

  101. There is NEVER a point to Mawy’s rambling.

    The Teacher’s Union president did the EXACT SAME THING that Chrissie Leg-Tingle claimed Michelle Bachmann did to him on election night. And now, Matthews will harp on the Union president for his pathetic response to Megyn Kelly:

    ………………………………….. any minute now …………………………….

    Icy Texan (9a8aa5)

  102. Aaron….uh, any point? Yeah, two points.
    One is my original post. What your little crew is doing here, and what you’re fomenting, is viciousness for its own ideological sake.
    And there’s plenty of same going on with the other “team.”
    Zero sum, pure and simple. And this whole country unravels thanks to it.

    Do I think the Kochs of this world are too much in control and behind too much of what’s bad? Yes.
    Hope you read the New Yorker piece on them last year. I know its beyond the ken of much of your crew, but I expect you might read it with comprehension.

    But I expect your comment about my “rambling” probably has more to do with my subsequents throwbacks at retorts from JD and Dave Surls, who apparently can’t come back with any substance but, feeling the need to say something, throw out school-yard taunts.

    Larry Reilly (0e1b2d)

  103. Does Larry Reilly’s mother realize he’s using her computer without her permission?

    DohBiden (984d23)

  104. Larry

    > What your little crew is doing here, and what you’re fomenting, is viciousness for its own ideological sake.

    No I am suggesting that these people be punished for the fraud they are openly and notoriously committing.

    > And there’s plenty of same going on with the other “team.”

    I am sure there is. And when I catch republicans engaged in fraud, my answer is the same.

    > Do I think the Kochs of this world are too much in control and behind too much of what’s bad? Yes.

    Oh, lord. You did notice that Scott Walker doesn’t know what Koch’s voice sounds like, right?

    > Hope you read the New Yorker piece on them last year.

    Yes, they are the new bad guys of the right because… um, why exactly?

    But by all means link to the piece I would love to see it. I mean be careful posting too many links or wordpress gets confused and thinks you are spam. But one link won’t hurt. (and if you are ever accidentally labeled as spam let me know and I will try to get out of the filter.)

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  105. Great video. But that’s not “passive,” that’s “handing him the rope to hang himself.”

    I only wish she had stayed in that same mode longer. S[h]ort questions are devastating. Argumentative questions in don’t score, and they invite counterargument.

    You have to credit your audience with the ability to figure something out that you didn’t spoonfeed to them. In this case, it’s that Mr. Union Official is a robot programmed with talking points who’s perfectly comfortable with fraud. And yeah, she didn’t just say that, she proved it.

    [Corrected a typo. --Aaron]

    Beldar (c23585)

  106. There, Beldar, used my superpowers as an administrator to fix it for you.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  107. Larry Reilly – How much did the Koch Brothers contribute to the Republican cause during the 2010 election cycle?

    Cmon Larry, give us a number and a link.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  108. “But the draconian measure of removing public sector collecting bargaining rights altogether was never on the table during Walker’s campaign.”

    Kman – You appear to be the sole purveyor of the above meme. Why? Who knows. Politifact analyzed a different proposition.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  109. narciso-

    You have this habit of pointing out facts that destroy delusional narratives…keep it up.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  110. Kman should change his name to strawman.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  111. Aww . . . Mawy thinks that we’re Aaron’s “little crew”. How pwecious.

    Icy Texan (9a8aa5)

  112. The hilarious irony of this protest is that the young teachers get kicked to the curb by their union EVERY SINGLE TIME there’s an economic downturn and cuts are made. These people are nothing more than minor barons and baronesses for their high-tenured feudal masters.

    Another Chris (67858a)

  113. He’s answering the phone to someone who claims to be someone the left says is really really bad…..

    … and could possibly bring thousands of jobs to Wisconsin, if the union climate were found to be welcoming. If I were a governor, damn sure I’d take a call from a billionaire with thousands of employees.

    red (7b5f67)

  114. I am in total awe of the amount of material the tolerant, civil, left is creating from these protests for future use.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  115. How much did the Koch Brothers contribute to the Republican cause during the 2010 election cycle?

    Cmon Larry, give us a number and a link.

    I’ll help Larry out. It was 43K. Now Walker spent 11 million in the campaign, so Big Moneybags Koch gave Walker all of four tenths of a percent. Whoa- the strings that guy can pull.

    red (7b5f67)

  116. KOCH BROTHERZ. BUNNIEZ !!!!

    JD (109425)

  117. For those not paying attention, this is exactly the strategy, Chavez, ‘whose wonderful democratic revolution’ Mark Lloyd was a fan of, employed against Globo TV, and Fidel against Diario de La Marina, and Ortega against La Prensa

    narciso (28df0c)

  118. Aaron at 1107 – When I was in high school I was a member of my schools High School bowl team. In the preliminary round one of the questions was, “Name three US Presidents.” Our answer was Polk, Pierce, and Tyler. They had to pause the contest to look it up and see if we were correct.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  119. I read something last night which has raised a question in my mind, and perhaps the assembled sages here can answer it.

    The key to the question is the fact (which MD in Philly obliquely referred to in one of his comments) that under Wisconsin law, a budget bill requires (in the Senate) a quorum of 20, but non-budget bill requires a lesser number; and in fact the Republican members of the Senate have met and passed non budget legislation in the absence of the Democrats.

    This means that the almost complete ban on collective bargaining in Walker’s bill could have been presented as a non-budget bill, and the Democratic strategy of absconding would have been pointless because it would not keep the bill from passing.

    I realize some parts of Walker’s plan are budget items, and would need to be included in a budget bill–meaning the actual cuts to pay and benefits he proposes in addition to the ban on collective bargaining. But those items have been agreed to by the unions already–maybe as a way of winning sympathy in their fight against the collective bargaining elements of the bill, or because they knew the public would not let them get away with not taking any cuts–but whatever the reason, the unions have given in on that part, so the budget hill with the pay and benefit cuts but without the collective bargaining would have not provoked the same reaction.

    At the start, it might have been said that Walker was including the collective bargaining elements as a way to force the union to agree to the pay and benefit cuts–basically he would drop the collective bargaining elements if the unions agreed to the cuts–but since that didn’t happen, he can’t be accused including the collective bargaining elements of the plan for that reason. But he must have had a reason to do so, instead of introducing a separate bill on the subject. Is there some legal nicety that makes collective bargaining rights a budget matter?

    (And I’m also wondering how much of this is Walker applying Rahm Emmanuel’s rule about not letting a good crisis go to waste.)

    Illumination on this point would be appreciated.

    kishnevi (af8fff)

  120. From Taranto today;

    Common Cause isn’t expert on the fiscal challenges facing Wisconsin or how the state should answer them. But it’s clear that the course chosen by Gov. Scott Walker, a bill to end long-held collective bargaining rights for government employees, reflects the political agenda of one his most generous campaign contributors.

    We have no basis for our opinion, but we’re going to issue a press release anyway, because corporations are bad! These guys are college know-it-all hippies: “You’re playing into the corporate game! See, the corporations are trying to turn you into little Eichmanns so that they can make money. . . . The corporations run the entire world.”

    The Weekly Standard’s Daniel Halper notes that another left-wing group, the Center for American Progress, has attacked “pretty much every major organization, company, or individual who ever gave to Walker–and even some of the organizations that gave to organizations that supported Walker.” With one exception:

    Walmart, one of only two corporations to fall in the top ten list of donors to Walker’s campaign, has never been mentioned in connection with Walker by the intrepid Googlers at the Center for American Progress. Not even once.

    Coincidentally, Walmart has been, and by every indication continues to be, a major donor to . . . the Center for American Progress.

    narciso (28df0c)

  121. About the presidential poll–the thing to create a shudder is the fact that at least ten people (1%) picked Jimmy Carter.

    kishnevi (9ee373)

  122. I’an in total awe about how retarded Larry Reilly is.

    DohBiden (984d23)

  123. Wisconsin has the highest education spending per pupil of any state in the midwest.

    Only 34% of eighth graders are proficient at reading at grade level.

    A black student entering high school has only a 40% chance of graduation.

    By all means give the dems and teachers more money because thay have been doing a bang up job so far.

    (And for a really scary statistic that reading profiecency number is only 4% lower than the national average.)

    Any typos in this comment are due to my writing proficiency falling as Maker’s Mark consumption rises.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  124. I read/heard something that dealt with this issue, kishnevi, and what I understood was the issues around the collective bargaining, etc. were considered to be budgetary, because Walker’s view is that collective bargaining as it is is stacked in favor of the unions and against the interests of the taxpayer.

    Budgetary items need 3/5 for a quorum, I believe, and other just 50%, I think. So they did already pass a new law saying state senators need to pick up their paychecks in person in the Senate chamber, and they could go ahead and rewrite WI election law requiring voter ID, but they haven’t (yet).

    I’m pretty sure that all is as advertised from Walker’s side. He ran on this kind of a platform, he was for these kinds of reforms as Milwukee Co. Executive, and the people of Wisconsin voted him in knowing this. So it is an issue of the unions of the state of WI wanting more from the public than the public wants to give.

    I have not seen anything to suggest that Walker thought this would happen and had a plan to Emmanualize it. As I said, the only thing they have done so far because of the Dem’s abscence is vote to make them come pick up their checks.

    I know that is not precisely detailed, but it is what I have.

    One thing that Walker has said is, “They have no endgame”. Fleeing the state to stall is all they have. Apparently they gambled that they could cause enough flak to get the gov. to back down. It could be a Saddam-Bush miscalculation, one party surprised to find that someone meant what they said. There are already several investigations into impeaching/recall some of the senators, and I believe one may have the process begin by end of April.

    I guess before all of that there is something about a deadline coming up that if they can’t refinance some debt they will have to fire a bunch of people. The unions and Dem Senators will make a lot of friends if all of the teachers and others low on the seniority totem pole get fired because of the behavior of those with seniority.

    Sometimes resolving a crisis (peacefully, anyway) involves finding a way to end it without one side being completely embarrassed. Of course, the more entrenched the sides become the harder that will be.

    narciso, I’m trying to pay attention, but my knowledge of the things you are referencing is very scant, can you be more explicit for those in your class who are paying attention but a little “slow”?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  125. MD, thanks for the response.

    Although I disagree with you here:
    The unions and Dem Senators will make a lot of friends if all of the teachers and others low on the seniority totem pole get fired because of the behavior of those with seniority.

    I don’t think you take into account the likelihood that people (especially low seniority government workers) will fall for the explanation that it’s Walker’s fault because if he hadn’t included those collective bargaining elements, the bill would have passed.

    Comment by Have Blue — 2/23/2011 @ 10:14 pm

    Just remember the rule is I before E except after C, not before it.

    kishnevi (9ee373)

  126. _______________________________________

    My biggest problem with billionaire David Koch is although he’s from Kansas — where most of his wealth was first generated — instead of sharing his money with Middle America, he’s thrown it at New York City. So geographically he’s one step away from being a flat-out limousine liberal in the land of limousine liberals. Ideologically, he’s not too far off too, since I understand he supports same-sex marriage.

    But he’s still way better than someone like George Soros, the ultra-rich ultra-leftist, who probably believes his supposed — repeat: supposed — do-gooderness absolves him of all the rotten things that happen because of the motto that “Hugo Chavez (or Castro, or Mao, or Stalin, etc) at least kept the trains running on time!”

    Mark (411533)

  127. You could certainly be right, kishnevi. For a moment there I assumed logic and insight would win out- a hope, but never an assumption.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  128. Mark, as I recall, the “trains running on time” bit was coined for Mussolini.

    Angeleno (aa4443)

  129. Have Blue: I’d really like a link that supports your comment…I need it to hammer a lefty that I am debating with about school spending here in California. Thanks in advance.

    Old Coot (203790)

  130. Sorry MD, Globo is the media conglomerate, of the Cisneros family, which has waged war against the Chavez regime, El Diario de La Marina, was the counterpart to the Wall Street Journal, which saw through Fidel, and La Prensa, was the broad sheetof the Chamorro family, that tried to keep the Sandinistas honest.

    narciso (bf58f6)

  131. From the 14 Characteristics of Fascism, from Dr. Laurence Britt, this one is relevant.

    10. Labor Power is Suppressed – Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

    Blubonnet (60b8e5)

  132. Old Coot – Here is a link from CNS for the reading scores. 32% were proficient and only 2% were rated as advanced. Don’t recall offhand where I saw the numbers for minority students, I still had this CNS tab open.

    http://cnsnews.com/news/article/two-thirds-wisconsin-public-school-8th-g

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  133. Have Blue: Perfect, thanks!

    Old Coot (203790)

  134. http://www.cityofmadison.com/news/view.cfm?news_id=2516#%23

    The police in madison want to talk to walker.

    teacher (096bb0)

  135. The police in madison want to talk to walker
    Comment by teacher

    teacher-
    Actually, I don’t think he really does.

    I don’t know if that link is funny, sad, infuriating, obfiscating, or depressingly hilariously obfuriating.

    Today, Chief Noble Wray would like to add the following to our response:
    ” I spent a good deal of time overnight thinking about Governor Walker’s response, during his news conference yesterday, to the suggestion that his administration ‘thought about’ planting troublemakers among those who are peacefully protesting his bill. I would like to hear more of an explanation from Governor Walker as to what exactly was being considered, and to what degree it was discussed by his cabinet members.

    May I suggest that if the Police Chief has a question about what the governor said about some topic, that he contact the governor’s office. If the Police Chief is trying to make political points of his own to give the governor grief, then he should keep making press releases.

    As a teacher I’m sure you tell your students that if they have a question, to raise their hand to get your attention and ask you directly. For a student to tell the hall monitor or a student or teacher in another class that they have a question to ask you doesn’t seem very productive, does it? I hope the Madison Police Chief Wray shows more ingenuity concerning other issues he faces.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  136. teacher, all Walker said was that planting troublemakers was a bad idea. Yeah, he said this pretty damn weakly, but it’s obvious from the phone call that he was just trying to be polite to a crazy person (the fake Koch). It was one of several instances where Walker was polite in contradicting Koch, proving he both doesn’t know Koch and doesn’t obey Koch.

    If this is the best you got, you’re lost.

    It reminds me of how democrats talk to truthers, or Republicans to birthers. The police chief is way out of line, but that’s politics in Wisconsin. Hopefully the Tea Party can remove him from office ASAP.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  137. That bitchy teacher is setting a great example for our kids. Her ass needs to be fired ASAP.

    ID (3e1a46)

  138. “The CIA killed JFK”
    “Aliens abducted me”
    “Fire can’t melt steel”
    “Kochs of this world are too much in control and behind too much of what’s bad”

    SPQR (26be8b)

  139. #

    That bitchy teacher is setting a great example for our kids. Her ass needs to be fired ASAP.

    Comment by ID — 2/24/2011 @ 4:42 pm

    So long as she’s a good teacher, I disagree. But the Police Chief issuing politically oriented press releases that convey the opposite of reality, working hand in hand with an obvious dirty trick, does justify replacement.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  140. Remember that all of Chief Wray’s personnel (including himself, for all I know) are members of a public sector employee union. His position on this matter is probably not unbiased.

    kishnevi (225b9d)

  141. Yup, Kishnevi.

    It’s even more offensive to me to have emergency services unionized than for teachers to be. It’s extortion.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  142. What is really important to remember is that this is the City of Madison, aka, Peoples Republic of Madison, Police Department.

    That’s a huge part of this dynamic. The state elected a Republican governor (who I think was the Repub Milwaukee Co. Executive) over the Dem Mayor of Milwaukee, as well as a convincing majority of Repubs statewide for the state legislature. But Madison itself is as liberal as it comes. “We” Madison folk like to point out that Berkeley is the “Madison of the West Coast”, no matter what other people say.

    So you have the Repub Gov, and state legislature surrounded by a small city of leftists. (You really need to see The War at Home 197-something documentary). The chief of police would probably like to put the governor in jail for jaywalking or something if he could. The Chief of Police being replaced by a Republican, much less a Tea party person, might be a sign of the end of the world.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  143. That is why it is so easy for them to have a big anti-Walker protest, 50% of the people in the entire state that hate Walker live in Madison.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  144. Pardon my repeats here.
    to the suggestion that his administration ‘thought about’ planting troublemakers

    Is this about the fake Koch suggesting planting troublemakers and the Gov. saying he “didn’t think that was a good idea”? The statement by the Chief of Police makes it sound like Walker raised the subject as if he had actively considered it. This just went from inappropriate and stupid to downright assinine.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  145. Does Sheriff Dupnik has a relative, by the way you won’t be surprised that the prankster, is a vile,
    antiAmerican troop hating fool

    narciso (bf58f6)

  146. Shep Smith is good today.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQuNrPg1paM

    Is this about the fake Koch suggesting planting troublemakers and the Gov. saying he “didn’t think that was a good idea”?

    Walker’s first response was to say: “we thought about that,”
    and decided it wasn’t a good idea because it might backfire.

    Bernard F. (d80b5a)

  147. Bernard F. – Shep seems to be as misinformed as you.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  148. Bernard
    The link has nothing to do with the quote- if you want to back up your assertion, back it up.

    You did give me opportunity to speak truth to Youtube on that link, anyway, thanks

    Scott Walker (3d3f72)

  149. Mr. Walker, they were responding to two different points. But on the quote itself I stand corrected.

    http://www.prwatch.org/news/2011/02/10103/full-transcript-walker-koch-call
    “Murphy [fake Koch]: Right, right. We’ll back you any way we can. But what we were thinking about the crowd was, uh, was planting some troublemakers.
    Walker: You know, well, the only problem with that — because we thought about that.

    Bernard F. (d80b5a)

  150. “Scott” please do us the courtesy of giving a non-sock puppet identity…

    I say that recognizing that alot of people just forget to switch back from the official sockpuppet thread.

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  151. You are a coward, Yelverton. A dishonest midget coward.

    JD (d4bbf1)

  152. Actually this Murphy ‘cat’ was more stupid then he first thought:

    http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2011/02/phony-david-koch-call-wasnt-just-prank.html

    khan noonian singh (bf58f6)

  153. The cops are pro union
    “The law enforcement officers from across the state that have been working at the Capitol and have been very impressed with how peaceful everyone has been,” said WPPA Executive Director Jim Palmer. “As has been reported in the media, the protesters are cleaning up after themselves and have not caused any problems. The fact of that matter is that Wisconsin’s law enforcement community opposes Governor Walker’s effort to eliminate most union activity in this state, and we implore him to not do anything to increase the risk to officers and the public. The costs of providing security can never outweigh those associated with a conflict.” Palmer also announced that, beginning tonight, the WPPA is formally requesting its members from across the state to come to the Capitol to sleep amongst the throngs of other union supporters.
    “Law enforcement officers know the difference between right and wrong, and Governor Walker’s attempt to eliminate the collective voice of Wisconsin’s devoted public employees is wrong,” continued Palmer.
    “That is why we have stood with our fellow employees each day and why we will be sleeping among them tonight.”

    Bernard F. (d80b5a)

  154. Yelverton conveniently ignores the actual and documented violencefromthe union AstroTurf thugs being bussed in. SHOCKA

    JD (d4bbf1)

  155. Comment by JD — 2/25/2011 @ 6:56 pm
    Have not heard about ‘actual violence’ from anyone there. Worst I know about is the sign that had a bullseye on Walker’s picture. Can you provide a link, or at least more details?

    kishnevi (33a0bd)

  156. Kishnevi, did you hear about the union thug who battered Tabitha Hale?

    Let’s hope it doesn’t get worse than that, though.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  157. http://hotair.com/archives/2011/02/23/video-union-protester-grabs-freedomworks-staffers-camera-hits-her-with-sign/

    Does hitting a girl with a sign count?

    how about this?

    http://michellemalkin.com/2011/02/24/video-rhode-island-union-supporter-to-cameraman-ill-fk-you-in-the-ass-you-faggot/

    I had to go to hotair and Mallon, who I do not care for, because the MFM is not reporting on them.

    JD (d4bbf1)

  158. JD, I don’t ever want to hear the left complain about the right’s civility again after this past couple of weeks. Sure, many on the left do not find that acceptable by either side, but if someone is going to harp about the Tea Party’s civility on its own they are either in need of more information or they are not playing fair.

    btw, I’m not talking about Kishnevi.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  159. Dustin and JD–thanks. Had not heard about the sign bashing.

    Had heard about the congressman–here, or through a link I found here.

    Although, I pay so little attention to the MSM these days, I wouldn’t know if they had reported on it or not.

    kishnevi (33a0bd)

  160. Although, I pay so little attention to the MSM these days, I wouldn’t know if they had reported on it or not.

    Can’t blame you. Especially since you’d probably be no more informed on this had you been glued to most networks.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  161. Kishnevi – Is the MSM similar to the MFM?

    Compare and contrast the coverage of teabaggers and actual AstroTurf union thugs. Remember all of the vapors over the evil violent signs made by the LaRouchies but attributed to the teabagger? How many breathless stories have been told about the unions this week? How many calls for leftist civility? This has been yet another object lesson.

    JD (d4bbf1)

  162. “The cops are pro union”

    Bernard F. – No Sh*t? Are you kidding?

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  163. Bernard-

    Thanks for the link. I’m duly unimpressed with the quoted comment.

    But I did find this interesting:
    if they think I’m caving, they’ve been asleep for the last eight years because I’ve taken on every major battle in Milwaukee County and won even in the county where I’m overwhelmingly overpowered politically and it’s because we don’t budge

    More evidence to suggest Walker is doing what he always has, hence what he was elected to do by the people of the state

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  164. “More evidence to suggest Walker is doing what he always has, hence what he was elected to do by the people of the state”

    MD in Philly – Democrats produced anti-Walker scare propaganda during last year’s suggesting this was exactly what he would do if elected. Any surprise is feigned.

    Maddow and her sycophants continue to mislead saying there is no budget deficit. Very poor form for a Rhodes Scholar.

    daleyrocks (ae76ce)

  165. http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/witness_republican_laughed_when_asked_whos_gonna_shoot_obama.php?ref=fpblg

    “Who’s going to shoot obama?”
    The congressman laughs.

    Liberals got nothing on the base republicans

    teacher (be0e1d)

  166. Yelverton is a coward.

    JD (d4bbf1)

  167. And a liar. A damned liar. The Congressman did not lau, he brushed aside what the questioner said, and went on to the next. As opposed to Yelverton’s idol, Capuano, who called for blood.

    JD (d4bbf1)

  168. Liberals got nothing on the base republicans

    Comment by teacher

    This is amazing.

    You’re saying there is no violence from the left. No commentary for it, no incidents of it, nothing at all. And then you ID some Congressman ignoring a stupid comment as the right’s horrors.

    Obviously this civility BS is just meant to shut down ideas you disagree with, rather than sincere.

    teacher is another thug.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  169. Actually teacher is 100% wrong. The congressman did not ignore the question, he reported it to the proper authorities and the Secret Service is investigating.

    Have Blue (854a6e)


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