Making the Great Leap: PC to Mac — A Progress Report
[Guest post by Jack Dunphy]
Some months ago I posted here that I, after many years as a PC/Windows user, had bought my first Apple computer, a MacBook Pro. I asked for suggestions on how to make the transition go smoothly, and I was grateful for all the comments and amused by many of them, particularly those that suggested I had made a mistake.
Those who commented on that earlier post may be interested to know that though I strived mightily to adapt to the new operating system and all its quirks, I found the experience frustrating most of the time and maddening some of the time. After much exasperation I surrendered, older and wiser for the experience. I’m now running Windows 7 on the machine and having no difficulties.
–Jack Dunphy
Uh oh. I hope you’re prepared. Not about your choice, but the incoming. Thank goodness you’re a police officer.
Ag80 (e03e7a) — 1/15/2011 @ 8:48 pmGood for you, Jack. Another consumer blow against Apple hegemony.
Beldar (ff4f38) — 1/15/2011 @ 8:52 pm“I asked for suggestions on how to make the transition go smoothly”
It’s always tough to make a smooth transition from windows bad to Mac unbelievably bad.
Dave Surls (7ee0b1) — 1/15/2011 @ 8:56 pmJack, I’m old enough to remember the PC crowd insisting that mice weren’t useful, that GUIs were bad, and so forth. Fact is, the “dualism” is converging.
Thus, folks should get what they like. They aren’t stupid or smart for picking one system.
I have always dislike Windows, but that’s me. Enjoy your computer!
Simon Jester (bbaff3) — 1/15/2011 @ 9:03 pmBeldar, no disrespect,,,but market share argues that Apple ain’t exactly the coporation with hegemonic tendencies. I’m just sayin’.
Simon Jester (bbaff3) — 1/15/2011 @ 9:06 pm“I have always dislike Windows”
You, and every other rational human being in this universe. Using Vista is like having a tooth pulled, all day, every day.
You have to hand it to Microsoft, after years of effort, they actually managed to make an o/s that’s almost as bad as an Apple o/s.
Dave Surls (7ee0b1) — 1/15/2011 @ 9:13 pmI always tell people, you got to go with what works for you. Computer or Smartphone, same rules apply. Personally I find Apple products are not for me. Plus Apple is more expensive for the same quality of a device made by someone else. That being said, very amused about running Windows 7 on the Mac hardware…
Beldar & Simon – Apple likes to think they are the top of the food chain, but realistically they are not.
chiianna (5d9ee1) — 1/15/2011 @ 9:14 pmAfter Better Half got the iPhone, we have since got 2 iPads, and a Touch. We are getting the 27″ with a terabyte when we move.
JD (d4bbf1) — 1/15/2011 @ 9:15 pmDave – Vista was really bad… It is Windows ME all over again… Windows 7 is actually quite a bit more stable. I was happy when I was able to get the drivers together to upgrade my machine.
chiianna (5d9ee1) — 1/15/2011 @ 9:19 pmWindows is may better than Mac. Windows 2000, XP, and 7, anyway.
The rest, forgedaboutem.
Christoph (8ec277) — 1/15/2011 @ 10:40 pmHad a wonderful experience:
AD-RtR/OS! (322946) — 1/15/2011 @ 11:04 pmWent from Windows 97, to XP, to Seven.
Just kept getting better.
I was first exposed to Macs back when they were cute little boxes running the first version of the Mac OS. It was a disaster. I’ve repeatedly tried to get them to do what I want, from time to time, of necessity not choice. I’ve yet to have a happy experience with a Mac, even as recently as a few months ago. They don’t like me and the feeling is mutual. They make me feel I’d rather be out in the lab trying to pull my own teeth with a pair of pliers.
{+_+}
jdow (98e9d7) — 1/15/2011 @ 11:23 pmWindows is just an upside down, backwards, convoluted and obtuse ripoff of the Mac OS. Always has been. Time and time and time again, Gates and company looked to Apple’s innovations for ideas – a lot of the things Windows users take for granted first appears on some iteration of a Mac OS.
The problem some Windows people have in migrating to the Mac OS is that they’re so conditioned to thinking things should be much more complicated and cumbersome than they actually are on the Mac OS. Also, the Windows OS is fugly and graceless.
But, to each his own. Objective comparisons have consistently shown the Mac OS to be easily superior to the Windows OS. Plus which, it’s much more secure, it doesn’t slow down over time like Windows does, and it doesn’t have anything like that awful and obsolete Windows registry.
The Mac OS is modern, while each Windows is just more lipstick on a pig.
Sorry, but the Mac OS is far better – too bad Gates and company have mis-trained so many computer users into thinking that using a computer has to be a high maintenance and clumsy affair.
-Mr. Grady
Mister Grady (6a106f) — 1/15/2011 @ 11:53 pmXP and Vista are fine for me, but I recommend Macs to naive users, and especially for kids. Nobody can infect a Win PC faster than a bunch of kids downloading all their warez and pirated content. They all do it, the little monsters; I know, because I’m the guy who gets called to clean up their messes. They’ll click on ANYTHING.
gp (098d27) — 1/16/2011 @ 1:05 amIf you’re a parent, and you’ve never monitored your kids’ PC use, sneak a peek at their browser cache sometime. Have some smelling salts handy, because you’re going to faint. Then take a look at the security log in the event viewer, if you dare.
gp (098d27) — 1/16/2011 @ 1:15 am“Windows 7 is actually quite a bit more stable.”
I have never had any trouble with crashes with Vista, it’s the idiotic file security system that pisses me off. I still haven’t figured it out.
I don’t want an o/s that argues with me when I try to delete or move files. I want it to do exactly what I tell it to do, the second I tell it to do it. No backtalk. No games. No 45 minutes wasted trying to figure out why Vista won’t let me delete a folder I don’t want any more
If I wanted an o/s that won’t let me do stuff, I’d spend four times what a DOS/windows machine costs and buy a Mac.
Dave Surls (9a57f2) — 1/16/2011 @ 2:39 amMacs are perfect for people who want to spend four times what something is worth and then WANT to have no idea how any of it works.
A Mac user is like a woman driver who can’t even change a tire or check the oil.
It’s a highly overpriced computer specifically designed for people who don’t have a clue, and don’t want one.
At least that’s how it was many years ago when I looked at a Mac and then started laughing my head off.
Dave Surls (9a57f2) — 1/16/2011 @ 2:48 am@ Simon Jester RE: Hegemonic tendencies.
Ummm, yeah, Apple is a control freak / extremely closed environment while Windows is pretty much, wide open. Want OSX ? Legally run it ONLY on the hardware that Steve Jobs wants you to. Don’t like that hardware config or the price ? Too bad.
@Mr Grady RE: Apple Innovation. Sure, Apple comes up with nifty ideas, Microsoft make them actually work 🙂
@ Mr. Grady RE: fugly and graceless.. And ? I don’t want my computer to be “pretty”, istead, I’d rather be able to use to actually accomplish things 🙂
Also, did Jobs ever get that cut/paste thing figured out ?? 🙂
Demosthenes9 (145ac1) — 1/16/2011 @ 3:11 amWelcome back, Jack.
We always knew you really liked girls all along.
Estragon (ec6a4b) — 1/16/2011 @ 3:36 amWhats next? Crocs?
Frank Drackman (550e6d) — 1/16/2011 @ 3:39 amDude, I don’t know what crowd you were hanging with, but it wasn’t mine.
I’ve been a fan of the whole WIMP interface since the day I saw it on the Mac’s predecessor, the LISA, in *1982*.
You might have heard at one point some arguments that one could do without that, but the primary benefit to the applications of the 80s was not the WIMP interface but the multitasking ability which was far more within the power of the machines of the time, and handled at least as well by things like DESQview. It wasn’t until well into the mid-to-late 90s that Wintel machines finally got the kind of power needed to properly handle the WIMP interface.
In actual fact, the only reason that the Mac OS doesn’t own the market is the stupidity and Gallic arrogance of Jean-Louis Gassée combined with the mild but distinct incompetence of John Scully.
The former ruined Apple’s position at the apex by arrogantly believing that what Apple had already done, no one else could do. Literally.
The latter ruined Apple by stupidly not figuring that, even if you are outselling any individual competitor, if you’re still losing market share to the aggregated opposition, sooner or later you will cease to be, business-wise.
More here:
They Coulda Been a Contender
At one point, the market was rife with suggestions that there were, coming to the market, Mac clones, the same as PC clones — lower priced entry level machines.
Did Apple welcome these? No, they did a sideways stomp on them, by taking Microsoft to court over the “look and feel” of Windows.
The whole idea of “Mac Clones” utterly disappeared overnight never to be heard from again. Microsoft could afford to fight Apple. No one else wanted the privilege.
Had anyone at Apple NOT had their craniums rectally inserted to the nipple, they would have realized they could have had the best of both worlds — they could have licensed to anyone who wanted to make a clone the then-all-critical Mac ROMs, a set of 180k of tightly written and fiercely tweaked routines written for the express purpose of running the Mac OS on machines that were woefully underpowered for such a daunting task. If Apple had licensed the ones two or three revisions back, then they would have managed to retain some control over the market (which is what IBM failed to do) while not only reaping some reward from the sales of the clones, but also retaining a clear advantage to paying the Mac “price premium”. With this, they would have increased their market share massively, while still keeping the caché and cash cow that the Mac itself was.
Now Apples about to lose out again, much the same way, by outselling any single brand of Android smartphone, but being woefully under sold when it comes to overall Android sales.
Mark my words — Apple is going to lose, again, a market it utterly and totally has controlled… but being too greedy, too controlling, and too stupid, it’ll slip through their fingers like quicksilver…
IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8) — 1/16/2011 @ 3:53 amNothing wrong with Macs if that is what you like. If you do a lot of obscure technical work, you will be lucky to find even one program which runs on a Mac without an emulator. By comparison, there will be several PC programs for the same task. I like to remind my Mac fanatic friends that Apple nearly folded before it started selling wildly successful Bobbles for Boomers.
Tregonsee (2b58bf) — 1/16/2011 @ 4:14 amAt least getting into unix, under cover of the Mac, is a good thing. The best thing to do is to install a version of Linux as a dual boot, or have your tech friend do it. And install Firefox, Thunderbird with Lightning and Open Source Office on both the PC OS and the unix one. Boot up Windows only if and when you must when you start taking a shower – it likely may be ready after you’re dressed. Just no comparison. Oh, and Ubuntu would be a good choice since it’s the OS of choice on a lot of the smaller hw systems.
Just no comparison. And you’re web-safer than Windows ever will be.
cedarhill (ac4076) — 1/16/2011 @ 5:30 amThe problem is transitioning from one way of doing various things to an entirely different way of doing things. All this talk about intuitiveness is utter nonsense. There’s a fairly steep learning curve involved regardless of which OS kernel you decide upon – NT, Darwin, Solaris, Linux, &c. It’s all too easy to forget the time invested and frustration endured learning the old way. Understandably, most don’t wish to suffer that again. Unfortunately for Windows users, they must experience it anew with each
ripoffrelease. I’m of the opinion that Microsoft is a company in business solely to make money, one that just happens to produce bad software. Were it instead in the auto industry, people would spend the first few weeks discovering the new locations of the ignition, door locks, and headlight & wiper controls. This exasperation, and the fact that Windows Update often breaks perfectly working hardware, coupled with the insult of having to actually pay for such unpleasantness, is why I switched to Linux. Undoubtedly Linux has faults aplenty, primarily among them a lack of hardware drivers, but I’m okay with that. I do my research when selecting parts (and laptops) to ensure the greatest compatibility and either dual boot or use VirtualBox in the unavoidable circumstances when only Windows will do (erf @ Netflix).All in all, it boils down to this: the platform that best allows the user to accomplish what is desired is the one that should be used.
LexiRedLion (72d218) — 1/16/2011 @ 5:58 amO/S Worldwide market share as of December 2009:
Windows: 92.21%
Mac OS X: 5.11%
Linux: 1.02%
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/01/windows-7-growing-faster-than-vista-overtakes-mac-os.ars
Users have voted with their wallets.
navyvet (db5856) — 1/16/2011 @ 6:50 amSlightly OT but related to Ipads, Iphones, and smart phones in general…
I’d recommend checking out this slideshow done by the army about “geotagging” and what it can tell about you and your family. The fix is easy – disable geotagging in your smartphones, etc. Most default to using it.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/46237585/Army-Geotagging-Safety
vor2 (031860) — 1/16/2011 @ 6:57 amYou have to really admire Apple’s marketing for the Mac. They stimulate a brand loyalty that’s as strong as Harley Davidson’s. By flattering their customers’ intelligence and sense of style, they get strong repeat purchases, even when Apple changes the platform and abandons backward-compatibility.
The real fun begins in a poorly-managed corporate environment, when IT has to accomodate the 5% of users who insist on using a Mac, even though everybody else is fine with a PC. IT tries to save costs by specifying a single platform, and then some obstinate, pierced, tattooed mgr in the creative dept pitches a fit until he gets his precious Macs. He insists his Macs are easier to use, but he still ends up using a disproportionate fraction of IT’s support budget.
gp (098d27) — 1/16/2011 @ 7:32 amI went Mac 3 years ago…short learning curve…zero (zip, zilch, nada) reboots required (on 2 Mac computers) due to program crashes, errors, lockups–NONE. I’ve already rebooted the Dell (XP) behind me 3 times since last night as it is having trouble backing up to a new external drive). No going back for me.
RB (a07239) — 1/16/2011 @ 7:37 amIt’s amusing to see all the hostility between Mac and PC. Sheriff Dopenik would be knocking on your door. I agree that anyone running tech software will have to use Windows. I had one of the first PCs and finally switched to Macs when I was at Dartmouth for a year in 1995. In those days, the data storage systems were incompatible so it was not easy to go back and forth. Now it is a snap. I agree with gp #13. My daughter’s PC was constantly being tied up with viruses and worms. When she left for college, I insisted she get a Mac iBook and she has not had a problem since. She did not need any instruction. The transition was easy.
Mike K (8f3f19) — 1/16/2011 @ 7:43 amMY wife loves her Ipad so much I have never used it.I have repsect for Apple’s products to the degree that I invested in their stock. For my home PC, Windows was always easier in the sense it was already there. And for my business too many of my programs and a server are already locked into Windows and 7 so far is okay. When I updated my office PC system in Demcember it came with 7, but I don’t see any major improvements. Might someday convert my home PC to a Mac, but wouldn’t take the chance of converting my business PC-based system and the likely headaches.Problem is that the cost of a new Mac and conversion is way over that of a new PC. Cannot see how that could be worth the cost nor the headaches like Jack’s.
Bugg (4e0dda) — 1/16/2011 @ 7:48 amI find these comments strange. I use a MAC now, used PC for years. Transition was easy I thought. Depends on your job and software needs. If the operating system does not support your software or job, one would ask, why do you want to change.
Ray S (50edcc) — 1/16/2011 @ 7:54 amNothing new about these “better than thou” arguments. I have heard them from tech experts, and from people who cannot define “CPU.”
People get to choose which they like best.
And what kind of world would it be if Bill Gates was king? Or Steve Jobs? Yuck.
Let the consumers choose. The “I’m techhier than you are business” is…kind of silly.
Simon Jester (6938b8) — 1/16/2011 @ 8:00 am“My daughter’s PC was constantly being tied up with viruses and worms.”
That is one advantage with a Mac. Nobody makes viruses designed to attack an o/s that nobody uses.
Dave Surls (9a57f2) — 1/16/2011 @ 8:27 am“I have heard them from tech experts [Windows user], and from people who cannot define “CPU.”[Mac user]”
😉
Dave Surls (9a57f2) — 1/16/2011 @ 8:30 amActually, Dave…quite the reverse in my experience.
Sure, there are PC types who have mad skillz and there are Apple types the same way. What I find tiresome are people who don’t know squat about computers telling other people what is “best.”
I just don’t understand the venom on this kind of topic. Competition is good.
I will say this: Apple drives Microsoft to try to innovate and improve…despite small market shares. How this is bad eludes me.
Simon Jester (6938b8) — 1/16/2011 @ 8:50 amAnd Dave, you might be a great computer expert. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise.
Simon Jester (6938b8) — 1/16/2011 @ 8:51 amI don’t understand? No matter how many Apple commercials you have seen on TV or Apple fanboys explaining why their personal choice is superior, you didn’t change your mind and acquiesce to the fact that Macs are better?
Doug (d4c559) — 1/16/2011 @ 8:59 amYou were probably prejudiced by the fact that you do actual work beyond surfing the Internet.
buying an apple is merely becoming a victim of hype: someone who is swayed by the constant propaganda about the supposed “superiority” of apple products. A mac is overpriced, underpowered, unfriendly computer to anyone who likes to take apart the nuts and bolts of programs and customize them themselves (such as with config or ini files). If you are a complete computer dunce, I guess it’s a bit more idiot-proof. But the exorbitant price (I recently looked at one while buying my significant other a new laptop: an HP for $800 had significantly better stats, HD, CPU, RAM, other amenities) than the nearest comparable mac, which cost $1800.
buying an apple is a status symbol, pure and simple. I work for a living as a graphic designer and IT professional. it used to be that macs were de rigeur for that type of work. no more. more and more people are getting hip to the fact that apple’s rep for superior products is little more than hype. they purposely price gouge to keep their product exclusive to a little club of computer ignorant people who are dazzled by bullshit and snobs who think having an apple is some sort of badge: and it is, of a weeny. the type of person who buys an apple probably bought or leased a prius, wore crocs, recycled thinking it actually meant something and other idiot moves which the tragically unhip misidentify as hip.
I’d hazard a guess most apple users are liberals/leftists, because they have no sense of value and value empty status symbols which mark them as above the common hoi polloi: or at least so they think. Actually, they are part of a dumber, elitist and snobbish herd with deep-seated inferiority and low self-worth which they attempt to offset with pricey status symbols which cost several times what a comparable, useful computer would cost.
same with ipads and iphones: if you have either of these, you are a tool, plain and simple. you watch too much tv, you are a herd member who is susceptible to advertising and propaganda and who buys things based on what you think your possessions say about you, and they do, but not in the way you think.
walk into any apple shop in any mall in the US: look around at the people there. you have just walked into douchebag central, and you are a giant douche, paying out the nose in a vain attempt to buy yourself into the kool kidz klub.
stereotypes are not always wrong. a person with an obama sticker on their vehicle is more than likely a supercilious dickhead. ditto an apple buyer.
not to mention there are about 1/1000th the number of programs expressly for apples vs. pcs. you can of course run them in a windoze “environment” on your apple, so you have a pc in a very, very expensive case. you already bought it, so I’m sure you’re already one of those fools who vainly attempts to explain how superior an apple is and why it’s well worth 3x more than a comparable pc, so good luck to you. be sure to buy a new model every update, get all the accessories and just go nuts with apple gear like stickers for the back window of your SUV and t-shirts and other paraphernalia to show everyone what a fucking tool you are.
docweasel (5510fc) — 1/16/2011 @ 9:09 amFriend just got a brand spanking new MBP. Crashes on normal Flash applications all the time. Google indicates this is a normal problem.
That piece of garbage Mac cost about 3 times as much as my PC did. Even when it’s not crashing, it’s simply slower. It does look really pretty, though. Most MBPs I’ve seen have the same crack just to the right of the trackpad. I bet my pal his would too within a year, but he wouldn’t take the bet. I wonder why?
But, like cars, some people like a flashy, expensive, car that really scratches their itch for certain features. I’m sure Macs have some features that justify the money to some users. But I can also tell that Apple is not interested in making a computer I’d like to use.
I’ve never had a crash or a virus on my Windows 7 machine. I think that people who can’t avoid viruses in 2011 are simply not computer literate, and probably should learn how to handle email and web surfing normally. But then, they could also just get a nice Asus, linux based web surfing computer, too. If all they want is a system that won’t get viruses, and will surf the internet, then they don’t need to spend very much money.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/16/2011 @ 9:23 amHell, even Steve Jobs seems to admit his computers crash on flash all the time. It’s really weird.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/16/2011 @ 9:24 amRemember everything you read about how great Macs are were written by members of the Apple cult. I am only half joking here.
I am a software engineer and I have worked with operating systems of every kind. Apples generally cost more for less capability. They also have problems just like any other platform. In terms of the availability of software (the entire purpose for owning a computer) Windows wins hands down. There are simply 10’s of thousands of more applications written for Windows than Apple.
Apple does have a nice niche in the graphics and multimedia space. Even in that case, there is basically *nothing* you can do on a Mac that you can’t do on Windows.
The other problem with Apple is they are a closed shop. There is no competition at all on the hardware side and even on much of the software side. Apple controls everything with an iron fist, which is probably why lefties like them. They seem uncomfortable with making choices in the free market, they would rather have someone tell them what they should use and how to use it.
Even something as simple as an uninstaller for an application goes missing with many Apple programs.
Ken Royall (67885e) — 1/16/2011 @ 9:43 amWell I appreciate folks demonstrating my thesis. But this been going on since the late 1980s.
To each their own. But I don’t insult folks who disagree with me on taste.
Simon Jester (86ea30) — 1/16/2011 @ 9:48 am“this been going on since the late 1980s.” Actually since the 1984 Mac Superbowl commercial. Remember? The dreary drones of Oceania (conformist PC users) receiving their instructions from the telescreen (corporate, “the establishment,” IBM.) Suddenly a daring, lithe female sprints in, hurling her hammer (Mac) at the screen, releasing the proles from tyranny.
Much of the PC vs Mac rancor derives from the Apple marketing strategy: “you are smarter, hipper, more creative than those suits.” It’s insidious, and ingenious.
gp (098d27) — 1/16/2011 @ 10:10 amApple does have some good products and has been the source of many innovations. I have no fault to find with that, nor am I trying to change anyone’s mind about which products they’d find most useful.
I’m no fan of Microsoft either.
But Apple consistently tries to limit consumer choice and to compel consumers to stay on the Apple Shining Path. It’s been their core (pun acknowledged) corporate strategy from Day #1.
I’m not even saying that their leverage and tying agreements ought to be illegal under the federal antitrust laws (although those laws have given both Apple and Microsoft lots of problems). I’m just saying that as a consumer, I refuse to support a company that wants to control and limit my choices in the ways that Apple tries to do.
It’s not monopoly, it’s hegemony.
So no, no Macs or iPads or iPhones or iPods or iTunes in my household — regardless of their technical merit. That’s my choice, because even though it may mean that I miss out in exploiting the occasional Apple breakthrough product for a while until its competitors keep up, I’m protecting my practical ability to choose.
Beldar (ff4f38) — 1/16/2011 @ 10:10 amThe problem, Beldar, is that Microsoft has been even more crushing of dissent and differences.
I know about Linuxians and Unixtarians, but they are a whole different kettle of fish.
I respect your point of view, but the fact is that Apple innovations (originally stolen from Xerox PARC, I know) has driven the market toward greater usability.
I have many friends who detest all things Apple. That’s fine. Again, to each their own. What I take exception to is the flexible yardstick and the name-calling.
Buy what you want, and use the heck out of it. That’s the point, after all.
Simon Jester (d50d30) — 1/16/2011 @ 10:15 amBTW, I’m enjoying reading all the hoo-hah about Verizon getting the iPhone. I’ve been using my BlackBerry Storm on Verizon to do everything that I want a smartphone to do for the last two years, and I’m very satisfied with it. I get faster and more consistent connections than my colleagues who are forced (again, by Apple’s hegemonistic and anticompetitive conduct) to use AT&T in order to use their iPhones, and the only benefit they have (as compared to my setup) is that there are 300,000 iPhone apps that they’re ignoring instead of the mere few hundred silly and useless BlackBerry apps that I’m ignoring.
Beldar (ff4f38) — 1/16/2011 @ 10:17 amI gave up after four days and now have to endure hours of snarky comments from the friend who convinced me to get an iMac. I kept asking when all the wonderful features were and why couldn’t I hyperlink in a text. She called me a Luddite!
Pat Patterson (56dc55) — 1/16/2011 @ 10:21 amSigh. Beldar, the real problem in modern infomachines is the “one size fits all” meme. Look at Microsoft Word, which strangled the world processor market. Most of it is never, ever utilized by the vast majority of users.
But they still have to buy it.
I understand your point about iPhones. But they sure sell well, don’t they, even with all the problems. Either everyone is so very stupid, or they are making their own choices.
The problem with the “very stupid” conclusion is that it is little different form people who think they know better, too…about everything.
Let people buy what they want, just like you are. They aren’t stupid. Neither are you.
After all, diversity of products and approaches are good, as you point out.
Simon Jester (d50d30) — 1/16/2011 @ 10:22 amIt’s been my observation that Mac users always seem to ask for help from PC users, but NEVER the other way around.
Kevin M (298030) — 1/16/2011 @ 10:24 amBTW, Simon, aren’t you supposed to BE a computer?
Kevin M (298030) — 1/16/2011 @ 10:25 amSimon: I just SAID that both Microsoft and Apple have had problems with the antitrust laws, didn’t I?
Yeah, Microsoft has also engaged in some anti-competitive behavior, some of which has indeed been found to be illegal.
But Microsoft was quite literally founded upon the notion that their operating system should be sold to any hardware manufacturer who wanted to use it. That’s why my first computer, way back in 1984, was an IBM PC-XT, but my second computer was a COMPAQ, and my third computer was a no-name clone that was cheaper and more powerful. All three ran DOS 2.0 or one of its successors. And I used WordPerfect, not Microsoft Word, on all three of them — and continued that preference for many years.
I’m very damned glad that the FREE MARKET has mostly defeated both companies’ efforts to limit my marketplace choices. But no, I emphatically disagree that “Microsoft has been even more crushing of dissent and differences” — they may have intended to be, but they haven’t worked out to be.
Apple has been built from Day #1 on a “closed-system our-way-or-the-highway” mentality. And it’s still run that way. That’s why there are corporate “Apple Stores,” and that’s why Apple users have no choice but to patronize them. Currently, there’s nothing remotely comparable in the PC world generally or the MS Windows regime more specifically.
Beldar (ff4f38) — 1/16/2011 @ 10:34 amApple controls everything with an iron fist, which is probably why lefties like them.
In all fairness, Limbaugh is a big Apple fan. Even gives away iPads.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90) — 1/16/2011 @ 10:44 amNo one has to buy MS Word, Simon.
Some people who don’t need or like all of Word’s bells and whistles use it reluctantly or even unwillingly because, for example, they work with large companies who are committed to and heavily invested in MS Office products. But that’s as a result of consumer choice. And even then, there are non-Microsoft alternatives — e.g., Sun’s “OpenOffice” — that will let them avoid Microsoft products while preserving file inter-usability and compatibility.
Beldar (ff4f38) — 1/16/2011 @ 10:45 amLook at Microsoft Word, which strangled the world processor market. Most of it is never, ever utilized by the vast majority of users.
But they still have to buy it.
Not true. There are a number of Word-compatible programs out there. And they also produce documents in Rich Text Format (.rtf), which Word reads.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90) — 1/16/2011 @ 10:48 amAnd no one has to buy Apple products. With all due respect, Beldar, you and I are saying the same things—though I apparently hold less rancor toward people and institutions with whom/which I disagree.
I’m just not all that great of a computer user; I am very aware of my limitations. I just know what works for me, just as you do for you.
Simon Jester (d50d30) — 1/16/2011 @ 10:49 amOh, Bradley, don’t get me started on RTF. WYS is decidedly not always what you get.
Simon Jester (d50d30) — 1/16/2011 @ 10:49 amOh well, Beldar beat me to it. OpenOffice is a great example. It also provides an Excel-compatible spreadsheet. And OpenOffice is free.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90) — 1/16/2011 @ 10:52 amKevin, you made me laugh. I would show you a picture, but it would take too much of my processing power.
Funny how computers were depicted back then.
Getting back to the point, again: why all the rancor? Person “A” says that Mac people always ask PC people how to do things. My experience has been the reverse, but so what?
People get to vote with their purchases. I don’t think I am smarter or better because of mine. And I don’t use a flexible yardstick about corporations. You will never hear me defend Steve Jobs, just as I am not impressed by Bill Gates.
I wish that Bradley’s Linuxian future will be the way. Maybe it will!
Simon Jester (d50d30) — 1/16/2011 @ 10:52 amSimon Jester,
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90) — 1/16/2011 @ 10:54 amFor most purposes, RTF is just fine. In fact, plain text is just fine. I work at a newspaper, and we often get elaborately designed press releases as email attachments (Ugh!). We have to open those attachments and import them into our software. It would much easier if the PR types just sent us the info in plain text in the body of the email.
‘What I find tiresome are people who don’t know squat about computers telling other people what is “best.”’
Whatever works for you, is what’s best.
For example if you’re into an o/s that nobody writes programs for, and you want a computer that you have to take out a second mortage to buy…then Apple is definitely the way to go.
Sorry, Mac users…I just can’t control myself.
Dave Surls (9a57f2) — 1/16/2011 @ 10:56 amAs a Libertarian as well as a Linuxian, I appreciate the importance of choice. I don’t really care if people use Windows or Mac or Linux. (Right now I’m using a Windows box). My concern is that people have accurate information on which to base their choices.
Macs have never appealed to me, although I’ve tried to appreciate them. The Mac OS’ ultra-proprietary nature repels me, as well as the cost. I can tinker freely with Linux in all its diversity, which gives me far more options.
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90) — 1/16/2011 @ 10:58 amBradley, my friend, RTF does not work at all well for most of anything I do, despite how people make those claims. I cannot tell you the extra work and headaches that “universal” format has given me
One size doesn’t fit all. I’m glad all that works for you, and I mean that sincerely.
By the way, all this argumentation reminds me of Jerry Pournelle. Back in the BYTE days, he continually snarked and insulted “MacTribesmen” as he called Mac people. It was mean spirited and unnecessary and nearly continual.
Fifteen years later, he has Macs as well as his other PCs, and writes about them often. He isn’t a “convert,” but complains about all systems and all programs, which is far more accurate.
The rest is taste, again. I keep reading people claiming that Macs are “preferred” by “leftists” and I have to sigh. “Really?” as Jerry Seinfeld would say.
Personally, I think that the future will be a number of different devices, doing different things. People who love programming will have their systems, people who love using computers like an appliance will have theirs. Which is as it should be.
So why not wish each user well?
Simon Jester (d50d30) — 1/16/2011 @ 11:00 am“The real fun begins in a poorly-managed corporate environment, when IT has to accomodate the 5% of users who insist on using a Mac, even though everybody else is fine with a PC. IT tries to save costs by specifying a single platform, and then some obstinate, pierced, tattooed mgr in the creative dept pitches a fit until he gets his precious Macs.”
That’s easy to fix. If I’m working in an IT role, and I walk into an office and see a Mac, I just say “Get that piece of crap out of this building in the next five minutes, or I’ll have you fired”.
Dave Surls (9a57f2) — 1/16/2011 @ 11:03 amThe trouble with Dave is that he is so indecisive and unopinionated. You can never tell what he thinks!
Simon Jester (d50d30) — 1/16/2011 @ 11:04 amI thought we weren’t allowed to have religious wars on this site?
Seriously, though, the MacBooks are some of the best Windows laptops you can buy. And it is not like Apple really cares. They get their money from the hardware, not so much from the software.
The Tool
David the Infamous Sockpuppet (725724) — 1/16/2011 @ 11:20 amSo why not wish each user well?
Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (fb9e90) — 1/16/2011 @ 11:23 amGood point, Simon Jester. I’ve worked with many graphic artists who swear by their Macs just as firmly as I swear at them. Since I have virtually no graphic skillz and they do, I have to respect their opinion.
ISTR that the “window” style OS was invented by the geeks at XeroX in Silicon Valley in the late-70’s/early-80’s, just before the “X” decided to drop out of the PC market.
AD-RtR/OS! (b66592) — 1/16/2011 @ 11:37 amEverybody in the Tech field is guilty of ripping someone else off, since technology seems to be as slippery as an eel when it comes to holding on to what you have.
As soon as someone from one company walks out the door and down the street to another company, everything is in play.
For a classic example (not in the Valley) look at the tech snit that went on between Ferrari and McLaren over purloined papers/etc, and what happens when an engineer swaps employers.
I’m just teasing, and kidding around. If you like your Mac, more power to you.
I don’t care for them, but it sure isn’t going to cause me any grief, if you like them.
It’s just like music. I like the Grateful Dead, you like Lady GaGa (or whatever), and it’s just a matter of taste, really. One is no better than the other. It’s just a matter of what makes you happy.
That’s what I really think…when I’m not busy teasing.
Dave Surls (9a57f2) — 1/16/2011 @ 11:49 amAh, your “curmudgeon” posts always make me chuckle. But you do speak your mind, and there is not a thing wrong with that!
Simon Jester (d50d30) — 1/16/2011 @ 11:58 am“Lady GaGa.” Please. I’m more about “The Kinks.”
Simon Jester (d50d30) — 1/16/2011 @ 11:58 amThis comment thread is pretty darn full of fail…
I just want to point out that there is huge difference between OS X and the iOS that seems to be lost on many (if not most) of the commenters. OS X is a POSIX-compliant UNIX product running a kernel based on FreeBSD. There are, for all intents and purposes, no barriers to develop and distribute software for this platform. The iOS is a walled garden that Apple aggressively polices for a number of reasons (both good and bad).
There is really no comparing the two.
And, just for reference, I own a significant number of personal computers and portable devices running all sorts of operating systems, from Android to Windows and everything in between. Having an open mind with regard to alternative computer platforms is a good thing and should be embraced — I’m looking at you, Dave Surls…
h2u (e40792) — 1/16/2011 @ 12:01 pmAnd, Dave, I’m just teasing as well. 😉
h2u (e40792) — 1/16/2011 @ 12:03 pm“If I’m working in an IT role, and I walk into an office and see a Mac, I just say Get that piece of crap out of this building in the next five minutes, or I’ll have you fired”. Wow, I never worked in a place where IT has power like that. Usually those kinds of things are settled by executives on the golf course with the vendor salesmen. Their currency is kickbacks, vodka and whores.
gp (098d27) — 1/16/2011 @ 12:10 pmTo each his own. I’ve always been Windows at the office, Mac at home. I’m a tax preparer, by the way. If it weren’t for the ease of use of the Macintosh system I probably wouldn’t have a computer at home.
Charlie Davis (00d0d8) — 1/16/2011 @ 12:11 pmThat Mac must be pretty good if it helped you write this superb essay, Jack.
DRJ (fdd243) — 1/16/2011 @ 12:17 pm“I’m looking at you, Dave Surls…”
You can get permanent brain damage doing that.
“Ah, your “curmudgeon” posts always make me chuckle.”
I’m gratified to hear that. Seriously. If my silly little rants can raise a smile once in awhile, then I consider that I’ve done something of value, even if it isn’t much.
‘I’m more about “The Kinks.”’
Funny you should say that. I’m a big Kinks fan. One of the best rock shows I ever saw (and, I’ve seen more than a few) was when the Kinks played at my high school in 1970. They totally rocked, and it was one wild, wild party too.
After that show, our class (class of 1971), which had arranged the show, was never again allowed to have school dances, which proves that public school administrators aren’t total idiots.
Proof that a big name act, the Kinks, actually played at MY high school…
http://www.kindakinks.net/posters/index.php?poster=30
Dave Surls (9a57f2) — 1/16/2011 @ 12:18 pm“Wow, I never worked in a place where IT has power like that.”
Are you kidding me? If the bosses don’t do exactly as I say…the next day none of their phones or computers work at all.
They know who’s running the show.
If I say Macs out of the building, it’s Macs out of the building.
😉
Dave Surls (9a57f2) — 1/16/2011 @ 12:22 pmEven if it was running Ubuntu? 🙂
h2u (e40792) — 1/16/2011 @ 12:29 pmMy wife has an Apple, which I finally tried after much hectoring from her. It’s a piece of shit. I ran back to my PC.
Kevin Stafford (abdb87) — 1/16/2011 @ 1:13 pmMy wife is the sort will reply to nigerian gold scams, so Ubuntu it is for us. Great OS. I don’t know a thing about coding or the guts of computers, but it does the trick great. No need (or far less need) to worry about viruses, and I can do online banking w/o much fear.
jpe (fe8c3b) — 1/16/2011 @ 1:20 pm“Even if it was running Ubuntu?”
(Reluctantly) Yeah, I guess that’s o.k.
In truth, my real test for an acceptable platform goes like this: If I can fire it up and still launch Call of Duty World at War, I’ll work on it, and support it to the best of my ability…otherwise, no way.
That’s because if I ever have to pull an all-nighter, and there’s even a remote possibility that I might someday have to do it while working out of your office, your equipment and software HAS to be compliant with my video games…and, that ain’t negotiable.
I don’t really like doing it, because it’s a big pain to get essential stuff (i.e. video games) to run out of Linux variants and other odball o/s, but I will do it…if you pay me enough.
Shoot, I’ll even support people using a Mac o/s if it’s really necessary. Once, I helped a Mac user by explaining to him that in order to power up his machine, he first had to insert the power cord into an appropriate wall socket. It took a couple of hours to explain the basic concept, but he finally got the idea.
Don’t tell people I did that, though. I don’t want Mac users calling me at home looking for technical support…for obvious reasons.
Dave Surls (95e286) — 1/16/2011 @ 1:23 pmDave, Ray Davies is the Man, after the New Orleans story a few years ago…
Simon Jester (d50d30) — 1/16/2011 @ 1:30 pmHey anyone who is buying the BS of an IT guy telling the boss anything. Let me sell you this bridge I own. If Apple or Mac was this supposed crap he is calling it there would be no market for them. Chill and take that BS your selling to the funny farm. I will take my Apple products over anything that is running anything with windows on it../.I’m just saying!!!
Canesfan (837f28) — 1/16/2011 @ 2:16 pm“I will take my Apple products over anything that is running anything with windows on it”
O.k., but, just remember…it’s the pointy end of the power cord that goes into those little holes in the wall.
Dave Surls (95e286) — 1/16/2011 @ 3:02 pmAs far as I know, the only operating system in use planet-wide which has not had problems with viruses is MVS (aka zOS nowadays) on Itty Bitty Monoploy Mainframes … (and, no, COBOL doesn’t count as a virus) …
As a Mainframe geek/systems programmer working with the operating system software, I tend to PC-based computers/laptops for home/personal use … I find them user-friendly and mostly intuitive – with slightly-higher learning curve to get going, yet still allowing more exotic uses … Apple-based seem to be intuitive for some folk (who can be fun to be around as long as they keep taking their meds (grin)) …
The market is deciding which is “best” anyway …
Dave Surls – do we *already* know each other, and just have not realised it up until now ?
Alasdair (205079) — 1/16/2011 @ 3:08 pmDidn’t Jimmy Fallon do a series of “obnoxious IT guy” skits a few years ago?
Not that Dave is a thing like that. I like his taste in music.
Simon Jester (e5e1c2) — 1/16/2011 @ 3:12 pmHaven’t bought a Mac since my ’91 Classic II (didn’t know it was intended to not be upgraded) and have stayed with MS or Linux boxes at home, and MS and HPUX boxes at work–til I got laid off.
Personally, I think Bill Gates wanted to be the richest man in the world. Steve Jobs, the same, but you have to worship him, too.
BTW, for religious wars, take a look at Slashdot when Apple vs MS gets brought up. Bring kevlar/nomex.
Red County Pete (904e7f) — 1/16/2011 @ 3:58 pmApple hit the market first with a pretty slick everyman product, the priginal Macintosh. Bill Gates caught up and surpassed Apple because DOS was superior to Apple/OS. For a while, Microsoft jumped them at every turn as long as their development was on its own trajectory.
I’ve been in this biz a lo-o-ong time and I’ve seen a lot on both sides of the fence. Microsoft only commited errors of judgement when it tried to make its new OS more like Apple. Bob, Win95, ME, Vista – all bad ideas. Of course, on the heels of the bad ones that were rushed to market before their time come decent fixed versions. How many of us are still running XP, afraid (for good reason) to make the jump to Win 7? MS had to extend support for XPSP3 to 2014. By then, driven forward by their goal to become more like Apple, they’ll come out with yet another botched OS that everybody will hate, followed in a year by a cleaned up version. Apple users will be laughing up their sleeves, totally blowing off the fact that their lousy OS was in fact Microsoft’s goal.
It’s only natural that Mac users get defensive and sometimes combative when questioned seriously about their choice of systems. It’s called an ineriority complex.
Senior Chief (3828f6) — 1/16/2011 @ 4:06 pmI can see that Senior Chief needs an irony supplement. I too have been in this business a long, long time, and my favorite bit is when one “side” claims the “other” is defensive.
Puh-leeze.
Again: why not let consumers decide? And why are they “stupid” when they don’t agree with your viewpoint?
Simon Jester (d50d30) — 1/16/2011 @ 4:16 pm“Dave Surls – do we *already* know each other, and just have not realised it up until now ?”
Ya never know.
And, Chief, Vista isn’t just a mistake, it’s a cancer in the body politic, as well as a threat to all life on earth.
As for you, Jester. Thanks to you, I have Lola screaming out full blast on the stereo device…and all my neighbors are hollering at me to turn it down (and, my neighbors aren’t all that close…they can sure shout loud, my neighbors can)…thanks for getting me in trouble, dude.
“If Apple or Mac was this supposed crap he is calling it there would be no market for them.”
Yeah, right. ‘Cause a tiny fraction of personal computer users can’t be wrong.
Dave Surls (95e286) — 1/16/2011 @ 4:31 pmThere you go again, guys. First:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGkL6eQWOAI
And Dave? Please do me a favor and play my favorite Kinks tune:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCR83LxGKkg
That should really upset the neighbors.
Also, I like the liner notes to the Jeff Beck’s album “Truth.” It suggests that all the music be played very, very loudly.
Simon Jester (d50d30) — 1/16/2011 @ 4:42 pmTalking to Windows sufferers about the superiority of the Mac OS is like trying to talk to a liberal about the superiority of capitalism over socialism. You’re not gonna get anywhere, and all you’ll hear from them is ignorance, mythology, false choices, non sequiturs and other fallacious nonsense.
And complaining that the cost of a Mac to a thrown-together piece of commodity Windows junk is like complaining that a Lexus cost more than a Yugo. Plus which, total cost of ownership for a Mac ends up being less, since the Mac can compute circles around any Windows junk, and you can get a lot more done in a shorter amount of time. Sorry, but it is a fact – even if you want to live in denial.
Macs are for people who need to get things done. You just put the key in the ignition and off you go. But a Windows eyesore is like one of those old cars that you have to go to the front and crank the engine block just to get it started. Then you have to waste a lot of time with blue screens of death, viruses, worms, and lots of other obnoxious maintenance-related nonsense.
In short, Mac is for the well-heeled types who are glad to pay a little more up front for better hardware and better software – married together as a cohesive unit. Whereas Windows is a trailer trash computer. IT types hate Macs because if everyone used Macs the IT folks would be out of a job.
Mister Grady (6a106f) — 1/16/2011 @ 5:04 pm“Windows sufferers”
LOL.
That’s a good one.
Dave Surls (95e286) — 1/16/2011 @ 5:47 pmCan I just add that itunes is a colossally awful program?
I can’t think of a more bloated Windows program, and I know of many (such as Windows Media Player, which I suggest folks delete).
foobar is my music player. iTunes is hundreds of times the size, and is accordingly much slower. It’s part of the Apple ecosystem I’m supposed to adore, but it’s just tremendously awful. I do buy music online, usually from Amazon (which has a much better system).
all the proof you need of Beldar’s hegemony problem is easily proven with how itunes works. I recall years ago how it took all my music, already well organized, and moved it to a special set of folders with hashes instead of logical names. It was very easy to restore that error (because I backup my hard drive), and remove iTunes, but clearly it would be hard to get my music on anything but an Apple brand player. These days, itunes for Windows installs with a large fraction of the entire Mac operating system… why?
Same with the Apple dock. All my other music players use usb to charge and interact… but if you have an iPod dock… you’re stuck with Apple lock-in. And forget about adding a memory card to your Apple handheld device, of any kind.
It drastically increases the price of Apple products, and also drastically shortens their useful lifespan for power users.
Just lock in as far as the eye can see. Apple’s a great company, and they are also just not for me. Microsoft is pretty dang terrible, but for whatever reason, they don’t lock me in much at all.
I used to boot just Ubuntu… and really, that’s an easy operating system to use these days. But I’ve been forced to use Windows 7, and have to admit… it’s perfectly good.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/16/2011 @ 6:26 pmI like Lady Gaga. And I like some of my Windows devices. and I love all of my Apple devices. Fuckers won’t talk to each other tand that pisses me off to no end, but I cope.
JD (d4bbf1) — 1/16/2011 @ 6:50 pmI like Lady Gaga. I like all of my Windows devices. I love all of my Apple devices. f@ckers won’t talk to each other which plsses me off to no end, but I cope.
dude from Big Bang Theory in an upset. Rock on.
JD (d4bbf1) — 1/16/2011 @ 6:54 pmHave to second the comment about iTunes, really can’t stand how iTunes tries to sync/remove/delete stuff you’ve paid for unless you know to set up for manual tranfer. And how about getting photos onto your Touch!! Have to set up a separate folder and then sync, can’t even drag/drop d#$% photos onto the device!! I’ve had one foot in both worlds since 2008 and recognize that both systems have merits but I am very pleased with Win 7…so much so that I bought (2) Asus laptops for price of (1) Macbook Pro. Today Apple is making their money on iTunes/iPad/iPod/iPhone…actual computer hardware is a much smaller bite of the “apple” than it used to be.
GoDaddy (6ed79d) — 1/16/2011 @ 6:57 pmDLNA turned out to be such a crock. Que lastima.
If you want your Windows and Apple systems to have access to the same data, you might be better off getting a home server, and saving everything on that, from both systems.
I use the Seagate GoFlex for this, though I don’t have any Apples (I have several non-Windows systems).
Nowadays, with most computer use being internet use, it’s hard to tell one OS from another. Most of them can decode video, most can run flash, etc.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/16/2011 @ 7:02 pmFlush with the affirmation of my prediction, I second the opinions of iTunes. Slow, clunky with a decided hatred of users.
Ag80 (e03e7a) — 1/16/2011 @ 7:03 pmBurning DVDs from a home PC into iTunes formatted for an iPad is an ordeal. F@ckers.
JD (d4bbf1) — 1/16/2011 @ 7:08 pmWhat’s bad is that they don’t drive them far enough or hard enough.
Apple is the physical trainer who, after you’ve done one push up and one sit up says, “Eh. Good enough…”
And in case anyone translated my commentary as “anti-Apple”, it is, but not because i prefer M$ to apple. I’m ticked that Apple keeps screwing up by being too controlling. They need to stop trying to be the be-all-end-all source for all things apple connects to.
The idea that I can’t buy a widget except through the apple store, giving apple “their cut” is garbage.
The idea that I can’t SELL a widget except through the apple store, giving apple BOTH “their cut” AS WELL AS utter control over what I *can* sell is also garbage. Who he hell is Apple that I should need their imprimature to sell to willing and interested customers? I wouldn’t develop an ap for the iPhone if apple paid ME.
IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8) — 1/16/2011 @ 7:30 pmI would love to run something off of the beaten path and stable, but time and ability will make me stick to something common. Stayed with Win98 as long as possible, then XP. I prefer a real Tablet, looking forward to getting one running Win7 which seems (coming after Vista) to be like going from Me or 2000 to XP.
A theoretical question, (since Apple doesn’t make a real Tablet PC that I might buy) if you put Win7 on a Mac, do you still have the virus risk, etc. as you would on a machine just with Win7, or does having it on a Mac platform insulate the Win 7 to some degree? Please educate me.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 1/16/2011 @ 8:05 pmNot to mock, but I can just put my movies on my memory card. It plays in my pickup truck, my game consoles, my phone, my stupid PDA, my laptops etc. If I just put MP3s on it, it plays in all that plus a million other things.
Not having a little memory card slot, or a replaceable battry is the only gripe I’ve ever had about my iPod. It’s well designed, and I’m willing to sugger the Apple tax for that, but over time, it’s simply wound up being much more difficult to just put my movies and songs onto. It’s the main reason I’d prefer a Droid to an iPhone, too. I need an easy way to get data moving. If my device breaks, my more critical data is on the removable card. It’s simply an obvious facet of functionality that doesn’t exist for iPods (etc).
BTW, I use handbrake to rip DVDs, and find it very handy. I put them on the GoFlex server and it’s playable on anything connected to my home router.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/16/2011 @ 8:08 pmbetamax!!
timp (d01845) — 1/16/2011 @ 9:23 pmYeah iTunes on windows is bloated crap. On osx though it’s actually pretty good. Photo syncing and even getting DVDs onto idevs is dead simple. I’ve got nearly 3tb of crap in iTunes now (some bought via the store, tons ripped) and use it on my iPhone, iPad and via appletvs.
I’m a unix (mostly Linux) admin and macs absolutely dominate for personal computers for unix types anymore. Once most of us get to that point where we don’t want to dick around with our computers at home, macs start to make more sense. With all the oss support and integration with the x11.app it’s a no brainer for many. I’ve also converted most of my family who would regularly break their windows boxes and I got tired of fixing them. None of them had any trouble converting. The one app my dad needed for work, I setup a windows parallels instance.
When it comes down to it people should buy what they want and stop fighting about it.
Miguelitosd (f443a7) — 1/16/2011 @ 9:38 pmYou last sentence is spot-on, Miguelitosd….
Simon Jester (d50d30) — 1/16/2011 @ 9:58 pm,
Ewww. Dude, Seagate USED to rock — the only reason I don’t use the 80gig drive I bought from them in 2000 is because it’s too small. Made the mistake of buying three drives from them since then. Two failed within a year. The third (an external) failed one month past the 12 month warranty. One drive failure in five years is bad luck. Two is really bad luck. Three is really really really lousy QC…
I’ve yet to have a WD drive fail on me in the last 8 years. I’ve used another 3 of them (replacements for the Seagate drives), two of them to the point of decommission due to size having become insufficient — that is, more than five years. The 1TB Caviar Black I’m using now screams, and is now older than any of those failed Seagates were.
I have to recommend them.
IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8) — 1/17/2011 @ 12:22 am😉
Oh, Simon, puh-leeze.
Trust us.
We’re Experts.
😉
I confess to using the term “stupid” on occasion, but I do try and express my justifications for the appellation, and, of course, others may consider those justifications insufficient.
I like the MAC concept, and don’t have a problem with Apple making an effort at controlling the market early on, until it’s stabilized. I object to their continued tendency to control things, though, because it becomes both a consumer pain in the ass (just TRY and get your installed tunes OFF your iPod — even if they didn’t COME from Apple!) and a market straightjacket (Sorry, NOTHING ‘risque’ on your iPhone. No matter how much anyone wants it. Wait? WTF? Why is this Apple’s business?). The former is a violation of my property rights as an individual, the latter a violation of my property rights as a businessman as well as the principles of Free Trade. Apple should provide a platform, not an Entire Self-Contained and Inviolable End-To-End Delivery Mechanism.
Not saying they can’t do that as a business. Just that it violates pretty much every principle I stand for, and as a result they can osculate my posterior.
“Not on ze left side, not on ze right side, but right in ze middle” **
As a result, I choose not to do business with them for the most part, and think that anyone who does is a fool… i.e., “stupid”.
Now go and ask me what I think of buying a Prius. 😀
** Extra bonus points for anyone who can identify the movie quote.
IgotBupkis, President, United Anarchist Society (c9dcd8) — 1/17/2011 @ 3:46 amIGotBupkis said:
I’m ticked that Apple keeps screwing up by being too controlling. They need to stop trying to be the be-all-end-all source for all things apple connects to.
The idea that I can’t buy a widget except through the apple store, giving apple “their cut” is garbage.
The idea that I can’t SELL a widget except through the apple store, giving apple BOTH “their cut” AS WELL AS utter control over what I *can* sell is also garbage. Who he hell is Apple that I should need their imprimature to sell to willing and interested customers? I wouldn’t develop an ap for the iPhone if apple paid ME.
This man speaks the truth. This is the reason I’m about to jump ship from the iPhone to the Android platform: I was tired of living in Apple’s walled garden. For example, I wanted an SSH client for my iPhone, but couldn’t find any in the app store (I’ve since learned that there are some, but no free ones, which puzzles me since OpenSSH is 100% free). I had to jailbreak my phone, voiding the warranty, to get one of the apps that was the reason why I had bought the phone in the first place. Now, not everyone wants things like SSH on their phones, but for me, that was a deal-breaker. Apple, in their
infinite wisdom, believes they should be able to tell me what I can and cannot run on my handheld computer (that can also make phone calls). Sorry, I won’t accept that.And now Apple has come out with an App Store for OS X. Currently that’s not the only way to buy software for OS X — you can still buy and install third-party software, but given Apple’s history, it’s only a matter of time until they say “Third-party software is a potential security risk — you could get viruses! — so we’re going to make you buy software only from the safe, controlled App Store. It’s For Your Own Good(TM).” Personally, I give it about 2 years.
I used to recommend Macs to computer novices, because they were easier to use than Windows. Not any more. Now when Mac users ask me for computer advice, I tell them they need to jump ship. Go to Ubuntu if you can, Windows if you have to — but even on Windows, you’ll be freer than on Mac OS X.
Robin Munn (c7cb03) — 1/17/2011 @ 6:40 amYup. At home, I really don’t feel like inserting CDs and installing drivers just to grab a couple of photos off a camera or whatever.
carlitos (a3d259) — 1/17/2011 @ 9:07 amWanted to add to what I said before. Basically, why I tend to recommend Apple stuff to friends and family anymore.
My dad worked on Crypto for the Air Force for several years in the late ’60s and early ’70s. Then he worked for AT&T on pbx systems for ~20 years and since “early retirement” has continued to work in telecom on his own. In fact, he is (or at least was) known as one of the top people for large scale pbx systems. Despite that, he is a complete doofus with just about anything else electronic. He’s (mostly) hopeless with computers. He never could get a VCR to stop flashing 12:00. He even tends to seriously wire stereos up wrong. After fixing his (and other family members’s) windows machines for about the billionth time, I finally told them a few years ago that if they bought a new computer and got windows again, I wouldn’t help them anymore. My dad was the first to get a mac (though my mom and I actually bought it for him for his birthday). There was a short period where he had to acclimate, but that same mac has been serving him fine for almost 5 years (early intel mbp). Aside from just working, he actually does a lot with it he could never get right in windows. He finds things like iPhoto, iMovie and iDVD intuitive, creates slideshows, movies, etc. He never got anywhere near that with any of the software on windows.
The only thing he still doesn’t quite get to this day (my mom got it the first time I told her) is how clicking the red close button doesn’t actually quit an application. So he tends to leave some running without any windows. This doesn’t actually cause any problems though. At least I broke him of dragging programs from a dmg directly into the Dock.. so everytime he’d click on it, it would have to remount the dmg and run it from inside the compressed image. On the rare occasion he (or my mom) does have an issue (he managed to drag /Applications to another directory once) I simply take over using screen sharing and fix it from my house. Even I was somewhat amazed that when I mv’d it back (and chmod’d the dir so he can’t move it again) the system never skipped a beat… only problem was programs wouldn’t start while it was in a different location. I’d be interested to see how a windows machine would handle moving c:\windows to another path for awhile.
Also, even my grandparents (who are even more hopeless with computers) find ipods and even my ipad quite intuitive and can use it with very little initial help. It’s that ability for non technical people to pick up the products and actually use them that is a big part of why Apple has been doing so well. Yes, there are negatives to the walled garden approach, but many people (as much as a lot don’t want to believe it) actually prefer that. They like having a one stop shopping experience and knowing that if it’s listed to buy, it’s going to install and work.
That said, I know Macs and Apple stuff aren’t for everyone. I do hope they don’t try to completely wall off all their mac line. I like having a MBP for when I’m working remotely, being able to install any OSS stuff I want or using X apps remotely (I use NX to connect to numerous machines at various locations at the same time). If they did, I’d probably go back to using linux on a laptop, and put up with keeping it up to date again, as much as I got tired of that. I do run a couple personal linux servers but try to avoid screwing around with them as much as possible.. I’ve lost big chunks of time over the years dinking around with stuff. I get enough of that at work anymore.
I do have one low end win7 laptop I picked up for the occasional retro gaming session. But it rarely gets turned on anymore. Even for games I’m sticking more to consoles anymore. The 360 is the one thing MS has created that I actually enjoy using (though it’s loud as hell). I’ve got a PS3 and Wii too though… I like my toys. 🙂
Miguelitosd (f443a7) — 1/17/2011 @ 1:55 pmAm I the only one who’s tired of the old Mac vs. PC schtick? It’s like reading about people argue abut which brand of washing machine is best. Good grief people.
Dave S (def834) — 1/17/2011 @ 5:08 pmYes, the Apple machine is susceptible to any Windows viruses when running Win 7…under Bootcamp, Windows is actually running as the OS so it is no different than running from a dedicated PC.
GoDaddy (6ed79d) — 1/17/2011 @ 5:15 pmDave S #112 – it, yet again, proves that there ain’t nuffink new under the sun …
In the way back when, there were Amiga Wars – and the Amiga Cultists wanted to burn IBM PC heretics at the stake (while capturing the audio and video) … the Ami-bots were partially right about the superiority of the video on Amigas, right up to the point, of course, that they insisted on using recommended (former) Commodore drives, which deserved to be the industry standard for slo-o-o-o-o-ow drives …
Alasdair (205079) — 1/17/2011 @ 5:41 pmAlasdair… Commodore drives? Loading from tape was where it was at. 😛
Miguelitosd (f443a7) — 1/18/2011 @ 12:51 am#115 – you nouveau upstarts are *all* the same … (grin) …
In the Beginning (of the IBM-based PC), there was indeed the Cassette Interface !
In earlier personal computing times, one loaded instructions, one at a time, using machine code programming …
You have not lived until you have helped a true programming genius program a Ferranti Solidac (all 1K of its core memory) to play recognisable bagpipe music … (that’s where I actually first saw core memory, the toroids themselves, with the proverbial naked eye) …
For 10 points extra credit, how many wires were involved in reading from and writing to a given toroid in core memory ?
dum dum dum dum dum dumdum (imagine in-tune Jeopardy theme)
Alasdair (e7cb73) — 1/18/2011 @ 3:42 pmUsers have voted with their wallets.
Well, they seem to be doing alright and have been dominating the >$1k computer market last I saw.
Miguelitosd (f443a7) — 1/18/2011 @ 5:06 pmComment by GoDaddy
Thank you for answering my question.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 1/18/2011 @ 5:14 pmWhat an odd cherry pick.
Ferrari is dominating the V12 Engined $250,000-$350,000 market, too, but Honda and Ford don’t even notice.
It shouldn’t cost $1000 to get a consumer level computer unless it is extremely high performance. Of course the maker known for being over-priced would dominate that segment. 95% of consumers pick something better than a Mac.
It’s certainly true that Apple is doing alright. I’m glad they have a good business, but I don’t think people who note the inferiority of their product, for their uses (such as my complaints about itunes) are hoping Apple goes bankrupt. That level of evil-wishing fanboy is probably on the side of the people buying $2500 laptops that crash at the drop of a flash game.
Frankly, there’s an awfully long list of examples of Apple being anti-choice and anti-consumer freedom. That’s OK. That’s part of their business model, and I respect that. I am not forced to buy in to a lock-in system. I’ve never bought an Apple product (the ipod was a gift), and I never will, but many people find it to be great. These people generally like a controlled system with few variables. They are willing to pay thousands more for a tightly controlled ecosystem. They don’t mind that they can’t do x,y,z. They don’t understand how to avoid viruses, and are intimidated by the notion of writing an application.
Now, there are exceptions. This doesn’t apply much to people with iPads, for example, who just want the slick product, and actually do tend to mind the lock in.
anyway, for my money, I want a computer that does the most possible for the least money. Apple doesn’t interfere with that at all. In fact, their innovations always wind up in my hands, emulated by another brand (just the same way Apple emulates awesome innovations like tablets).
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/18/2011 @ 5:23 pmJust to be clear, I’m not trying to show any sort of hostility to Apple at all. They are simply making a particular sort of thing in a way that doesn’t appeal to me.
In particular, I think appliance level, lock-in computers should be very cheap, rather than extremely expensive. You can get a fool-proof laptop that handles the internet and word processing for $350, easy. If only one company has the brand loyalty needed to sell that kind of product for five times more, it stands to reason the dominate this price range, while also having a mere twentieth of the computer market.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/18/2011 @ 5:38 pmI’m curious if people could actually provide some examples of things that are easy/intuitive on Win7, but complex on a Mac.
Pursing the comment chain I notice the claims that (1) OS X is for people who don’t understand and don’t wish to understand computers, and (2) mac is a closed system.
Given that OS X makes the full power of UNIX (a version called DARWIN) available to any user I really don’t understand the first point.
Second, Apple has made the Darwin OS open source. Can anyone point to a similar action by Microsoft?
And just for the record, I’m a Windows user.
Dispatches (ad84ae) — 1/18/2011 @ 6:18 pmDispatches, and for the record DARWIN is not Mac OS X. It is just some elements used in Mac OS X and its really not well kept up by Apple.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/18/2011 @ 6:22 pmHi SPQR. Yes I understand Darwin is not OS X. But OS X does make a UNIX-type OS available. Mac users have all the complexity/power they want.
I cannot comment on how well Darwin is maintained, but given that it is open source, any such lack is as much the fault of the community as the company.
Dispatches (ad84ae) — 1/18/2011 @ 6:33 pmDispatches, I don’t think you’ve read the comment thread thoroughly enough.
At any rate, Apple’s doing very well as a business lately, but not because of its computers. It’s appliance products, things more like Sony PSPs and Amazon Kindles than like computers, are doing quite well indeed.
As an investment, Apple is likely to be great for quite a while. More people buy technology, and Apple is a premium brand that continues to make enjoyable products. They obviously have incredibly closed systems. Anyone who fails to recognize what’s closed about an iPhone probably has never owned an alternative smartphone, or is a clouded by loyalty. But that’s OK for a lot of consumers. Another company that tightly controls their ecosystems is Nintendo, and they also make that work well.
Though not well for people who actually embrace an open environment, free application access, user storage, replaceable batteries, etc. There’s risk implicit in all those things, but in the information age, that risk is alleviated with a Google search.
Dispatches, I have an excellent laptop that cost $350 dollars. It runs Windows 7 beautifully, and does everything from photoshop to Office to playing hi def movies. It’s got a nice 15 inch screen and an excellent keyboard. Does Apple compete for my money? Not at all. You shouldn’t be defensive about this. They don’t even want my business, any more than BMW wants my F-150 business.
The vast majority of people buying a computer want something Apple doesn’t even try to make. It’s not because they are stupid that they pick what they really wanted.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/18/2011 @ 6:34 pmWell, Dustin, with all due respect, I would advance the suggestion that Mac users are not solely the defensive ones.
Like before: why the disagreement? Let people choose what they wish. Everyone is different, and diversity is a good thing.
Simon Jester (59b811) — 1/18/2011 @ 6:39 pmDispatches, no, Darwin is essentially a failed open source project ( Open Darwin gave up more than five years ago, PureDarwin hasn’t updated its website in a year … ) because Apple does not support it.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/18/2011 @ 6:49 pmNot a computer whiz but have used them for decades in my work. My son calls me Older Than Pong. I learned to use a card punch machine in college, lol.
One argument against Apple – and I admit I’ve never owned one – is the reason I came to hate IBM PCs, way back when. ‘Cuz when you bought an IBM, you were tied into buying IBM replacement parts and they were expensive. The IBM “clone” parts physically didn’t fit into IBM PCs at first.
Apple does the same thing – still. I got away from genuine IBMs and bought an IBM “clone” as they were known back then as soon as I could and never looked back. I’d never buy a Mac.
flick (160657) — 1/18/2011 @ 7:21 pmI heart my Apple toys.
JD (d4bbf1) — 1/18/2011 @ 7:23 pmJD, an awful lot of people do.
That’s why Apple continues to make a hell of a lot of money. It’s a rare bright light in our economy and I hope they make twice as much money next quarter (they just had their best ever, as was linked above).
They have a brand identity where the experience they offer is good enough that people say all the lock-in and the price are completely worth it. All they have to do to keep that Golden Goose is not screw up. That’s how brand loyalty works. Nothing they make is the best, performance wise. Some of their products are innovative, but mainly they have products that bring a vision together around ideas that have been around for awhile.
I’d consider an iPad myself if it ran flash. I do want a convenient internet tablet, though if it’s not running Flash, I’ll just use one with epaper that doubles as an ereader.
For computers, though, I think the Kindle or PSP or iPad logic breaks. At least for most users. There is a group willing to pay the Apple premium for an Apple computer, but that audience is just not the same as the folks who like iPhones.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/18/2011 @ 7:28 pmThe one I called defensive seemed to be. I’m not sure where you get the idea that I’m generalizing. Except that you’re probably being defensive (joke).
You do repeat my main idea with user preference. Of course, that’s what I’m saying too.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/18/2011 @ 7:29 pmI learned to use a card punch machine in college, lol
Ah, those were the days…the cutting edge of technology.
MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 1/18/2011 @ 7:30 pmThere is a group willing to pay the Apple premium for an Apple computer, but that audience is just not the same as the folks who like iPhones.
Not necessarily, Dustin. We are switching our home PC to this.
http://store.apple.com/us/configure/MC511LL/A?mco=MTg1ODA4MDM
JD (d4bbf1) — 1/18/2011 @ 7:58 pm@Dustin: I’m at loss as to why you respond specifically to me with a comment about relative price as I said absolutely nothing about this. Moreover, you tell me I shouldn’t be defensive on this issue. Let me assure you that I feel no compulsion to defend a point I did not advance. Did you mean to respond to someone else?
What I did ask about were specific examples of where windows is intuitive, but OS X is complex.
I’m not actually a fan of Macs. But I have used them and didn’t find them either more or less easy to use that Windows. Hence my question.
@SPQR. As I said I am not aware of the current state of OpenDarwin. I’m not surprised to learn it was not successful because I think most open source UNIX enthusiasts would be drawn to Linux. But still, Apple to their credit made this technology openly available. If people weren’t interested in developing it, fine. Is anyone aware of Microsoft making an entire OS open source?
Dispatches (51eb68) — 1/18/2011 @ 8:16 pmDispatches, the comparison to Ubersoft … err … Microsoft isn’t very compelling to me, regardless of how much I despise Ubersoft … err … Microsoft.
I can’t praise Apple’s failed open source commitment because its marginally better than Microsoft’s hostility to open source.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/18/2011 @ 8:19 pmWow, a $2000 Desktop. I admit, it looks sweet as hell. That screen will be a real pleasure, and I’m sure that’s where a lot of that money went. Still, the idea of a $2K desktop reminds me of some 1988 commercial with Bill Cosby for Texas Instruments. I’m being pretty unfair… most of my computers into the 90s were $2000 desktops.
Anyhow, I wasn’t saying people who find that sort of computer won’t also find iPads appealing. In fact, I’m sure they do. But they are different audiences (think Venn diagram). Most people can get the appeal of a Samsung Galaxy or an iPad, but I don’t think most consumers will buy a $2000 desktop for the home anymore.
Dispatches, I am not here to sell Windows 7 to you. While I think Apple is a great company that doesn’t sell anything I want, I think MS is probably doing more harm than good. I wouldn’t mind if they just ceased to be altogether, not that I think Google would fill their vacuum in a way I like very much.
To answer your question, consider mine about the $350 laptop I’m using right now, running everything JD’s $2000 desktop could, (his in style). Think about it.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/18/2011 @ 8:22 pm@SPQR. We have reached agreement. 🙂
Dispatches (51eb68) — 1/18/2011 @ 8:28 pm@Dustin. Okay I considered your example. I agree Windows machines offer better value for money. What does that have to do with my question?
Dispatches (51eb68) — 1/18/2011 @ 8:32 pmAnd remember, I noted I gave up on Windows for a while, and then had to use Windows 7 and found it to be completely fine. It’s not like I’m saying people who don’t use W7 are idiots. I really could care less.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/18/2011 @ 8:33 pmIf you think money is useful, then you have uses, right? I don’t really use Macs enough to criticize them intelligently. I do have some complaints, but I just don’t think they are informed. I have repeatedly noted it is not reliable, using Steve Jobs’s own remarks about Apples having difficulty with Flash. My Windows 7 computer has never crashed or experienced a virus or malware. So if an Apple crashes when running Flash, I think that’s a problem. I could name a few more, but I’m not a fanboy and I really don’t care very much. The computer I use more actually crashes more frequently because it’s using an alpha OS. I’m really not very interested in proving to you that Windows 7 is the ‘right’ choice.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/18/2011 @ 8:36 pm@Dustin. I think we are talking past each other. I just don’t see how your response about relative cost addresses my question about relative ease of use.
And you don’t have to worry about proving to me that Win7 is the better choice. As I said, I already use it.
Still, as a long time lurker (talking years here!) at this excellent blog, I’ve enjoyed finally joining in the rough and tumble of the comments.
Dispatches (51eb68) — 1/18/2011 @ 8:47 pmIt’s not like your question really relates well to why someone would not want an Apple for their PC, I guess, as I think I’ve listed 3-4 good reasons for my decision, and you don’t seem to think they are adequate.
Which is fine with me. It’s just a gizmo, after all. If it pleases you enough to justify the price, it’s a good purchase. That’s basically how Apple works (IMO).
Sorry if I’m being rough. It’s not intended. I think Apple’s got nothing to be defensive about, however it is really easy to see why they are a 5% market share. You could say something similar about Alien (an expensive maker of tacky, yet high performance computers).
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/18/2011 @ 8:52 pmDustin – yes, much of that goes into the monitor. I do not know if Apple is anymore intuitive than Windows. I can give a real life example though. My 2 1/2 year old angel, with no instruction whatsoever, can operate an iPhone, iPad, and iPod. She knows how to “slide to unlock”, find her games in folders, take pictures, watch movies, call via phone and FaceTime. If that is not intuitive, I don’t know what is.
JD (d4bbf1) — 1/18/2011 @ 9:01 pm“…I think Apple’s got nothing to be defensive about, however it is really easy to see why they are a 5% market share…”
Um. You don’t see that you are certainly giving the appearance of baiting people, Dustin? The two clauses don’t really match.
I’m glad you feel that your 350 buck laptop can do everything JD’s iMac can do. Unfortunately, all the magazine reviews don’t agree. But if yours does, great. I have heard this kind of argumentation for years. The fact is, equivalent machines are much closer in price than you argue, and that isn’t just my opinion; that is the opinion of industry folk (and not Apple) in review after review.
Yes, Apple products are more expensive. But not to the extent that you state; this is part of the problem.
I’m glad you have a computer that does what you wish. Notice that I don’t add any asides after I write this.
Because you might become sensitive if I did. Hmmm.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 1/18/2011 @ 9:01 pmYeah, that’s a great point. I’ve never had a hard time operating any of these devices. I wish someone was still using the old click wheel that used to appear on iPods. A lot of Apple’s interfaces are just simple and easy.
—
Simon, now I’m not really joking when I say you’re being defensive, and also projecting that attitude onto me. I’ve explained exactly what my problems with various Apple products are. I think you’re skipping over a lot of that, which is fine too, if you really like the way itunes works, or the fact that I can’t change the battery on an iPhone, or insert a memory card, or that there’s an entire lock-in attitude about the ecosystem. My complaints about their PCs are simply that they are uncompetitive values and also unreliable with Flash. It’s also just a fact that I need Windows to run a lot of the programs I need (which is the only reason I use Windows, as I explained earlier).
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/18/2011 @ 9:08 pm@Dustin
LOL. This is a little silly. Where do you get the idea I are about the adequacy of your, or anybody else’s, decision to buy a PC over an Apple? I’ve said nothing on this subject. You repeatedly respond to points I have neither made nor implied.
I’m not arguing in favour of Apple. I don’t use their products (not even an ipod). I don’t care what you or anyone else uses.
I’m asking for examples where something is easy to do in Win7, but complex, or non-intuitive in OS X. You haven’t provided any.
I’m not saying examples don’t exist. I’m saying that as someone with experience of both systems, I could not easily think of any examples. Neither it seems can you.
Dispatches (51eb68) — 1/18/2011 @ 9:09 pmFor JD, he values something that can be used very easily, and also having a freaking sweet monitor. I respect those choices.
However, ease of use is a relative thing. I think DOS and Unix and Linux are pretty easy to use if you give about an hour to learning them. Windows is incredibly easy for me to use, though I know a 2.5 year old can’t figure it out (nor could one figure out my cell phone).
So I can’t give Apple any credit for that when I choose a computer. They need to justify the price difference with some amazing deficit my computer has to theirs (rather than the other way around, which seems to be where the goalposts are), to justify the great price difference.
Simon Jester suggests that I’m exaggerating this difference, but I haven’t really put a dollar point on it. Show me the 15 inch laptop, with modern specs, from Apple. How much is that?
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/18/2011 @ 9:13 pmSigh. I don’t want to argue with you, but darn it, you just cannot help but snipe about false economies. You can’t help it. And then, when called on it, you refer to other people as being defensive.
It’s silly. And this kind of argument has gone on for years.
But when you literally state that your 350 dollar laptop can do everything a top end iMac can do? Really? You know that isn’t true. The truth is, and I suspect you know it quite well, the differences between equivalent systems are a few hundred bucks.
But hey, don’t take my word for it. It’s in most computer magazines.
Still, that higher price is a fine argument to make. The rest of it is bashing and preferences. Saying that I am projecting onto you is fine. But review your comments. You cannot help but snipe, every time you begin a sentence with “it’s fine if someone chooses a Mac.”
Boy, have I heard that about a zillion times over the years.
I’m glad you have a system you like, that does what you want. And it isn’t that tough for me to write that without adding to it.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 1/18/2011 @ 9:17 pmThere are a lot of things you can’t critically discuss without someone taking a personal stake in it. Just the way it goes, I guess. Like I’ve repeatedly expressed, I have no hostility to Apple, or those who buy their stuff. I can still discuss my views on it without picking fights.
I’ve never seen a discussion of Apple not lead to someone insisting the people being intelligent in their criticisms are actually somehow doing something wrong. They aren’t. It’s OK to not like this stuff. Apple doesn’t want my business, like I said. They are incredibly profitable because they don’t try to be all things.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/18/2011 @ 9:20 pmDustin – That would be$1000. Btw, those Alien computers are badass.
JD (d4bbf1) — 1/18/2011 @ 9:22 pmI just can’t spend that kind of money for a computer (the Alien ones). They are badass, though. And, no surprise, you can tell what brand they are from 5 miles away. When people spend that kind of money, a lot of them really want to ensure everyone is aware of it. Just human nature, I guess.
I’d rather have an HP, though the last 3 HPs I’ve had to take apart have been incredibly difficult to work on. And they seem to be poorly built altogether. My brother in law’s HP needed a solder reflow, and it was practically brand new. I nearly had a heart attack trying to put that thing back together.
My Lenovo laptop is almost as easy to work on as a desktop, and they are simply well made, so I guess I’ll spend a little extra for that.
What most people want is the ability to use the internet and watch video. An interesting counter to this is that the internet wants as many people to be able to read their websites as possible.
So, unlike the days of old, there is a tremendous incentive for the tasks computers are used for to not advance very quickly. Things are radically different, and the price of computers is actually falling, instead of the performance necessarily skyrocketing (at least for the average computer sold).
And it’s not like these conditions are anti-Apple at all. They have embraced them, by making appliances for the internet (such as the iPad). Now, that sucker needs flash pretty badly, and Apple’s obnoxious attitude towards Flash is well known and reminds me of the days Steve Jobs mocked multiple mouse buttons, but they will come around. Apple’s actually much more consumer oriented than some give them credit for, so long as you understand what kind of consumer we’re talking about.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/18/2011 @ 9:34 pmOh, and Lenovos don’t cost $350 dollars either. Just making sure I’m not misunderstood. I have a lot of computers.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/18/2011 @ 9:35 pmOh yeah, another point I keep forgetting to make. Hardware and software are different issues, but because of Apple’s lock-in attitude, this issue is difficult to parse when talking about which brand PC to buy. I’d be happy to run Apple’s OS on one of my computers in a dual boot environment, but Apple won’t let me (easily) do this because they demand control.
That’s their right, but it’s simply a fact they are special in this way. MS could care less if I want to buy their software for a computer brand they’ve never even heard of.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 1/18/2011 @ 9:41 pmActually they’re not unreliable with flash. The point to his article was that flash itself is unreliable, and it is.. it sucks on every platform I’ve used it on.. windows, osx, linux. The plugin tends to take down firefox or whatever other browser is in use, on every platform I’ve used. It’s a big reason there are so many plugins to block flash content (along with the fact that most flash ads are annoying as hell). The flash content in tabs you’re not even looking at can keep your cpu somewhat busy as well. The point of Jobs’ comments in that article was that of all the crash reports that were sent in to Apple, flash played a part in a very significant percentage of the problems encountered.
That’s probably the best thing you’ve said the whole thread.
BTW, the thing that did finally win me over to a lot of Apple’s design was my first iPod. I’d had a ton of mp3 players, from the very first Diamond Rio’s offered (and several of those as they evolved) through at least a dozen other brands and variations. When I first got an ipod and used itunes, with the automatic sync vs having to either copy files by hand or use really crappy software (yes, much crappier then iTunes, even on windows) I stuck with their line of players from that point on. The only gripe I had about that first iPod (3G model) was the touch sensitive buttons. That works great on the wheel for spinning (and I liked the click-wheel too) but for the rest of the buttons, I never cared for it. It was too hard to find the right button via touch and not accidentally trigger the wrong one. I actually didn’t have that one for very long though. I bought it right before the 4G ones came out, and then left it behind in the lobby of a building at work once.. realized it 10min later, and that sucker was long gone.
I never really did care for MacOS before OSX (and really not even until 10.3 was out) either. I grew up with MS-DOS from the 2.x days (rocking our 8088 based AT&T PC6300, dual 5-1/4″ non-hdd PC) through all the windows variations. I finally moved to OSX when it matured some and the X11/unix integration was there… and I was tired of how much of a pain Linux was on a laptop in those days.
Miguelitosd (f443a7) — 1/19/2011 @ 2:26 pmceltics rule
Idalia Micheal (c67e2b) — 1/27/2011 @ 1:28 pm