Patterico's Pontifications


Rantings of a Madman

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:29 am

Some right-wingers favor the gold standard.
Jared Lee Loughner favors the gold standard.
Therefore, Jared Lee Loughner is a right-winger.

Some crazy people can be motivated by rhetoric.
Sarah Palin engaged in rhetoric.
Therefore, Jared Lee Loughner was motivated by Sarah Palin.

You’re literate, listener?

129 Responses to “Rantings of a Madman”

  1. You probably shouldn’t read my comments on the truther thing :)

    carlitos (a3d259)

  2. Hoft at Gateway Pundit:

    We already knew that the Tucson shooter Jared Loughner was an anti-Christian, anti-Constitution, left-wing, pro-Marx, antiflag, “quite liberal” lunatic.
    Today we found out that he also wanted to kill cops.

    Using the state-run media model, we can therefore draw two conclusions from this information:
    1.) He must be a tea partyer
    2.) It’s Sarah Palin’s fault

    SPQR (26be8b)

  3. SPQR… it’s like you see right into their brains

    quasimodo (4af144)

  4. If I knew how to YouTube this with that mood music I would.

    If any of you do so I will embed it.

    Patterico (8aec69)

  5. quasimodo, I can’t claim the observation.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  6. it’s like you see right into their brains

    One question: what brains?

    Dmac (498ece)

  7. Since we here mostly agree that Loughner is nuts, maybe we should discuss how we might make it harder for nutty people to buy firearms. I’m not a rabid gun controller or a lawyer, but it seems to me there are already laws that try to block nuts from buying firearms, and those laws aren’t properly enforced.

    When I got my FOID card many years ago, I had to answer an 8-question T/F test that asked if I was nuts, if I used drugs, etc. Is a little questionnaire good enough? Maybe we need to require an actual psychological exam before we grant or renew a FOID.

    I see a lot of problems with that suggestion:
    1) Doesn’t stop _illegal_ gun purchases.
    2) Encumbers honest/sane gun purchasers.
    3) Easy to game the system (plenty of crooked doctors willing to sign off for a fee.)
    4) Some gun-hating doctors will refuse to participate.
    5) Some nuts will pass a psych exam no problem.
    6) Expensive.
    7) Maybe liability for docs who misdiagnose a nut who goes on to kill somebody.

    So it’s very problematic. Still, since there is so much agreement over the fact that Loughner was loopy, maybe this is a good discussion to have? Or do we really care enough to try harder to keep nuts away from guns?

    gp (72be5d)

  8. You control the grammar!

    stari_momak (d5f987)

  9. gp, currently it takes an order of commitment to flag the NICS background check. Any less would be a violation of one’s due process rights.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  10. Jared Lee Loughner argued that words have no meaning.

    What did he mean by that?

    Gesundheit (aab7c6)

  11. I want people in Minnesota armed and dangerous on this issue of the energy tax because we need to fight back. Thomas Jefferson told us ‘having a revolution every now and then is a good thing,’ and the people — we the people — are going to have to fight back hard if we’re not going to lose our country.”
    ~Michele Backmann

    “Don’t retreat. Instead — reload!”
    ~Sarah Palin

    “I hope that’s not where we’re going, but you know if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around? I’ll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out.”
    ~Sharon Angle

    ”Our nation was founded on violence. The option is on the table. I don’t think that we should ever remove anything from the table as it relates to our liberties and our freedoms.”
    —Tea Party-backed Texas GOP congressional candidate Stephen Broden

    ”I’m thinking about killing Michael Moore, and I’m wondering if I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it. … No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out.”
    —Glenn Beck, May 17, 2005

    ”We need to execute people in order to physically intimidate liberals.”
    —Ann Coulter

    TGF (3d36ce)

  12. maybe we should discuss how we might make it harder for nutty people to buy firearms.

    The same people who ended involuntary commitment for psychotics, refuse to disclose to law enforcement the psychotic history of college students. That is the age when males who are schizophrenic become apparent. Females who develop schizophrenia do so at a later age, about 26. The Virginia Tech shooter had a history of psychotic behavior that the college knew about but no one was warned. The gun laws are dependent on someone informing the authorities about these things. They don’t, especially college administrators. It seem the sheriff’s office, run by that left wing political hack, did nothing with their encounters with the shooter, either.

    Mike K (568408)

  13. TGF, its really kind of pathetic how you keep repeating a failed set of talking points.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  14. I have to agree with you if you consider exact quotes from conservatives to be “failed talking points”. Thanks for your support on this point.

    TGF (3d36ce)

  15. maybe we should discuss how we might make it harder for nutty people to buy firearms.

    It’s a shame no one else had a pistol at the location.

    But if this guy wanted to kill a lot of people, he could have easily done so without a legal firearm. Murderers can break firearms laws or even just choose a weapon like a bomb or a truck.

    Firearms laws primarily affect good people.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  16. I have to agree with you if you consider exact quotes from conservatives to be “failed talking points”. Thanks for your support on this point.

    Comment by TGF

    What’s the point of your quotes? There are many quotes about hanging Bush, Palin, etc from all over the left, too.

    So what?

    Your point has been rebutted very effectively on this blog, whether you know it or not. Your response is to simply parrot the quotes again? That’s not a reasonable argument. Take on the actual argument, instead of ignoring it. Stop trying to score points off murder, you piece of trash.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  17. TGF, obviously english is a second language for you.

    Meanwhile, here we find a quote from a Democrat governor very specifically stating that George W. Bush should be shot:

    “When I mention that Democrats are problem solvers, I can think of only one Republican who can be a problem solver — that is Vice President Dick Cheney if he would just take George on a hunting trip,”

    Not a metaphor, but an explicit statement about the President.

    So the failure remains yours, TGF.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  18. Calling for armed revolt en mass by a candidate for political office compared to a joke about Cheney’s hunting accident shows you’re not a clear thinker. Swing and a miss, strike one.

    TGF (3d36ce)

  19. TGF, nope. You remain a fail.

    The real question remains whether or not your obsession with hatred of those who disagree with you shows parallels with Loughner.

    Looking likely to me.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  20. Maybe I should follow the teabagger’s lead and look to “Second Amendment remedies” for the policies and people I don’t agree with? As Michelle Bachman said, we need to be “armed and dangerous” because “we the people are going to have to fight back hard.”

    TGF (3d36ce)

  21. Since all the violence at TEA Party rallies was from ACORN/SEIU thugs, the basic smear of yours, TGF, is as false as the rest of your insinuations have been to date.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  22. SPQR, you’re right. The only person in this thread proposing violence is TGF.

    I assume his goal is to make people here so angry that they start threatening him, in order to provide some kind of evidence for a Charles Johnson type to bash conservatives with? No doubt, we’ll see a lot of mobies actually create their own evidence, too.

    TGF: the reason you had to ramp up your provocations so radically is BECAUSE YOU ARE WRONG.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  23. Quotes he wants? Well from the last few months …

    “Put him against the wall and shoot him.” — (now former) Congressman Paul Kanjorski (D-PA) on Florida Governer Rick Scott

    “If I hear one more Republican tell me about balancing the budget, I am going to strangle them.” — Vice President Joe Biden

    I’ll stop there, but it’s a very long list.

    Tully (62151d)

  24. FYI…ACORN formally disbanded 8 months before the election. Swing and a miss… strike two.

    TGF (3d36ce)

  25. Dustin, like the allegations of spitting at Black congressmen at a TEA Party rally, the left wing relies upon fraud.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  26. This really isn’t quite as bad as the liberals and socialists who tried to blame republicans for Katrina or 9/11. But it’s small enough that it’s much easier to see their zeal for death and propaganda.

    I’m starting to get the whiff of many ruined reputations. The Wellstone Memorial Sequel is inevitable. Some major democrat will be unable to avoid the temptation of fame, the same as Sheriff ‘I made it up’ Dupnik.

    But more Americans trust Fox News than trust the liars now, after years of realizing who is really lying to them. More Americans get news from the internet and are either hardened partisans who are difficult to influence (for better or worse), or very well informed.

    The era Dupnik lives in has already ended long ago. He’s furious with Fox News, et al, because they don’t give a crap about the democrat party’s ‘correct’ narrative. they will speak the truth about Obamacare (Dupnik seems to particularly blame Fox News’s coverage of Obamacare).

    They don’t have control anymore, so their method of ruining reputations with made up lies, like Dupnik’s, won’t work. If they sat and thought about it for a second, they’d realize the reason they are smearing is the same reason the smear can’t work anymore.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  27. TGF, another falsehood.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  28. TGF, see, this is where the logic of your, ahem, argument misses: to you it’s merely a presidential assassination “joke” when a Dem says it, but a mortal threat when a Repub says something you don’t like. If you honestly cannot see the inconsistency here (or believe others won’t see it) you really should get out of the talking points business altogether.

    elissa (a8031f)

  29. On the bright side, TGF’s changing spelling made me google “Michele Bachmann.” One l, 2 ns.

    carlitos (a3d259)

  30. Lies? Look up Politifacts “lies of the year” for the past few years … you tell me, which side are they coming from?

    Game over. You whiff.

    TGF (3d36ce)

  31. FYI…ACORN formally disbanded 8 months before the election. Swing and a miss… strike two.

    Comment by TGF


    Are you serious?

    I guess this is your attempt to change the subject with an easily debunked and irrational point? You last few comments were disgusting attempts to blame a host of people for something they aren’t responsible for, and mark you as a wretch.

    So you change the subject.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  32. TGF, nope, you got caught yet again. Never a comment from you without a falsehood.

    ACORN’s nat’l org disbanded April 1 which is six months before the election and its state affiliates changed names and continued operations. All irrelevant since the TEA Party predated April 1 2010.

    Nothing but falsehoods from TGF.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  33. Politifacts lies of the year were themselves easily debunked and only showed how hard the Democrats have to strain to convert their opinions into “facts”.

    The “strikes” continue to be from TGF with a falsehood per comment on average.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  34. TGF is Yelverton, folks. How do our balls taste, William Yelverton, Professor of Asshattery @@ MTSU?

    JD (0d2ffc)

  35. TGF – Armed and dangerous, you mean with facts right? Does it hurt to be so stupid or do you get sores from sleeping in a wet bed. Did angle say pursue second amendment remedies now or have an election? Liberals’ solution would have been to try and execute Bush for war crimes. How is that for equivalency, Junior?

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  36. Willaim Yelverton – Prof Glen Reynolds asked a question of you. So far, you are too cowardly to answer. You have proven youself to be a skidmark on the boxers of humanity.

    JD (6e25b4)

  37. Ladies and gentlemen, please do not feed the Troll. the more he is fed, the more irrational he becomes.

    Bar Sinister (3cf6aa)

  38. TGF certainly acts stupid enough to be Yelverton.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  39. skidmark on the boxers of humanity

    For variety,you could also use “basking shark in a sea of ignorance.” Not my original, but I like it.

    carlitos (a3d259)

  40. I often don’t realize it until he’s made several comments. He knows how to hide is crazy, at least a bit, so he comes across as a little stupid and paranoid, worthy of a reply, and then later he ramps up the hatred.

    I guess that’s what it takes for Yelverton to successfully navigate a grocery store or a family meetup, though I guarantee people realize he’s disturbed pretty quickly.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  41. TGF, Why do you hate Thomas Jefferson?

    Tanny O'Haley (1be8fa)

  42. #

    TGF, Why do you hate Thomas Jefferson?

    Comment by Tanny O’Haley — 1/10/2011 @ 9:43 am


    Dustin (b54cdc)

  43. Comment by TGF — 1/10/2011 @ 8:43 am

    Is that supposed to be evidence that Loughner was motivated by the Tea Party’s rhetoric?

    Gerald A (9ef895)

  44. why do i get the feeling that the next time someone kills a congressman, Yelverton will be the gunman?

    Get help, Billy. Now.

    Aaron Worthing (1a6294)

  45. I like how Yelverton decries hateful violvent bigoted speech while engaging in the exact same thing. He memory holed a great post from right after the election, where he momentarily engaged in a moment of self-reflection. I wish I could find it.

    JD (822109)

  46. There is a lot of hatred among trolls like “Sharon” et al. Rabid recitations of falsehoods like “Sharon” on the Clinton era AWB.

    That kind of frothing hatred of people she/he disagrees with makes one wonder where the line is between them and a Loughner. Sadly, our society in its ACLU-driven foolishness has abandoned effective ways to deal with paranoid schizophrenics and dumped them into our streets.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  47. SPQR – or at directional universities teaching people how to strum a ukelele. Sharon was Willie Yelverton’s “I feel pretty, oh so pretty” personality. Like Pam and the countless others he has used.

    JD (6e25b4)

  48. Comment by Dustin — 1/10/2011 @ 8:48 am

    He could have taken a point from the mad woman who drove her car into a crowd in Westwood Village on IIRC a Friday night waiting for the start of a film.
    No one would have thought twice about something like a Suburban moving fast through the parking lot of a supermarket on a Saturday morning until the first bodies started to fly.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  49. Comment by Aaron Worthing — 1/10/2011 @ 9:47 am

    Why do I have the feeling that the person most in danger when Yelverton possesses a firearm is….

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  50. Here is direct evidence that he is obviously a Christian right-wing conservative who listens to Sarah Palin (not!):

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  51. He usually keeps going until he runs out of Jergens.


    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  52. Unless one of his relatives is nearby.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  53. Doc, that is evidence of the Palin influence, after all.
    He saw the stack of antlers in her father’s front yard, and he’s trying to emulate that.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  54. I think we need to outlaw fertilizer…. isn’t that what was used to blow up the bldg in Okla City?

    john b (bda2fd)

  55. I also think we need to outlaw bows and arrows, knives, and slingshots (there could be another David after a Goliath out there).

    john b (bda2fd)

  56. What is really bizarre at the article I linked are some of the comments:

    Sector, Like I said yesterday the only good thing that will come out of this horrible tragedy is that Palin is done, even the righties are turning on her. If you don’t believe her dangerous retoric of the last 2 years needs to be stopped that is your opinion most clear thinking people see it differently. She is done that hit list was the death of her political career!

    How many shrines include a bag of potting soil? Jared Loughner “shrine” looks more like Day of Dead decor or just some attempt at morbid humor. The “camouflaged” test isn’t. It’s just a tarp. At first I thought Drudge was linking to yet another SHOCK article from a British tabloid, then I was slightly shocked when I realized it’s the NYDN. In case anyone wants something really shocking, the DHS is using this tragedy to push their loose borders agenda:

    Soooo… a mentally unstable 22 year has his own ‘home?’ –i don’t think so. Where are his parents? And why hasn’t the media that so ferociously jumped on this story and labled the kid a tea pary member; interviewed the parents? Why haven’t the shooter’s parents made a publlic statement. Very suspicious indeed. Do not trust the media, folks–the mainstream media has proven how biased they are. MK Ultra, indeed.

    These are people who do not believe that 1+1=2

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  57. #

    I think we need to outlaw fertilizer…. isn’t that what was used to blow up the bldg in Okla City?

    Comment by john b — 1/10/2011 @ 10:18 am

    In the skull picture (he had a charred display with a fake skull in it, in his backyard), you can see some kind of garden supplement that probably has fertilizer in it. He’s just one google search away from making that into a weapon.

    I’ve got ten gallons of fuel in my garage, too. I have ten thousand pounds of cars with tremendous potential energy.

    The only hope anyone has is personal responsibility for their own safety. Relying on the government to outlaw all guns and other naughty scary potential threats will actually put us at the mercy of the lawless.

    Jared is a perfect example of what happens when the law abiding people are not armed, and only the murderer is. That’s a huge shame, and an important lesson.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  58. MD, that first quote of yours is so sad. That someone sees the death of that little girl, and responds “good, Palin’s career is finished now if it’s spun a certain way!” is just sad. Something is dead in that person.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  59. No, that’s typical of the Daily Puppy TRainer, which has given 9/11 denialists, a respectful
    hearing in the past.

    narciso (6075d0)

  60. “What’s the point of your quotes?”

    The point is to deflect attention away from the massive acts of violence carried out by liberal Democrats like Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Harry Truman and Lyndon Johnson and make it look like we not-so-liberal right wingers are the violent ones.

    Of course, anyone who has even a casual knowledge of history knows what a joke that assertion is.

    The great killers, the most violent people are ALWAYS left wingers/statists: Communists, Nazis…and, of course are own “liberal” Democrats.

    Dave Surls (335dec)

  61. Anyone see this?

    Apparently he was replacing his magazine with more ammunition, and an old woman wrestled him. That’s what stopped the shooting. The initial reports said he ran out of ammo, but that’s not the case. He was stopped during reloading by a hero.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  62. Dustin, I think three or four people wrestled him to a stop and they are all heroes.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  63. I saw that report yesterday, Dustin, but it was in a newspaper and didn’t give her age. Now that I’ve seen her interviewed and realize she’s about my age, I’m even more amazed at these brave people.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  64. I’d like to know about Jared’s parents, too. His history is troublesome.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  65. Yes, strange isn’t it that in all the rush to lay this at the feet of Sarah Palin, no one has dug up (or published) any info on the environment he was nurtured in.
    Dollar to a Do-nut he was brought up in a touchy-feely, leftist, always vote Dem home.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  66. #

    Dustin, I think three or four people wrestled him to a stop and they are all heroes.

    Comment by SPQR — 1/10/2011 @ 10:36 am

    Thank God for those people. Sometimes I’ve read or seen incidents like there were many people are together, paralyzed, and if they all rushed the monster their odds would be drastically improved. Some could get hurt, but they are much better off working together.

    These people were heroes, and I really hope this story is widely known, because it’s an important lesson for the next inevitable shooting. Perhaps a widely held agreement for all able bodied people to rush a shooter would also scare off some of these rare bastards.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  67. Anyone see this?

    Apparently he was replacing his magazine with more ammunition, and an old woman wrestled him. That’s what stopped the shooting. The initial reports said he ran out of ammo, but that’s not the case. He was stopped during reloading by a hero.

    WHATEVER is the highest civilian award for bravery, she should get it very publicly presented by the President, to provide a stellar example of bravery and decency to the people, and to show how much it is appreciated.

    Thanks for pointing that out, Dustin.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  68. Reading that story, it’s pretty amazing, in a positive sense.

    You have a 74 year old retired colonel closing with the enemy and getting shot while doing so, you have a 61 year old woman securing the shooter’s ammunition supply, you have someone else hitting him with a chair, and last but not least you have:

    Sulzgeber was reportedly standing with his wife, third in line to meet with Giffords, while Zimudie was in the nearby Walgreens and came running out once he heard the shooting.

    Notice that was not running in, it was running out. These are as great of heroes as your or any country has ever had.

    Honour them, and remember them.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  69. I meant to add you also had the heroic 61 year old woman providing effective first aid to the colonel as well. They kept their heads about them while acting with appropriate force against the shooter. My hat’s off to them, not just for their bravery and goodness, but for their tactical judgement and sensibility.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  70. And I don’t mean “appropriate” in a legal, restrained sense. I mean it in an effective sense.

    Christoph (8ec277)

  71. It might be more beneficial for all concerned, instead of Democrats ranting against Republicans and Republicans ranting against Democrats, if we start taking a look at why we have so many mentally ill people like Loughner committing such horrible crimes, and start discussing what to do about the mental health care system in this country, and what we can do to help keep things like this from happening on a regular basis.

    JEA (4ddf0a)

  72. Aah, Dave Surls, the massive acts of violence by FDR, LBJ, Truman and Wilson occurred during declared wars. Do you think Bush also conducted massive acts of violence?

    Jim (8de501)

  73. Patterico, the “rantings” you posted are okay, but I think they fail to adequately capture Loughner’s logical process.

    Youve heard of “if a, then b“? From thr Youtube videos I watched, his logic seemed more along the lines of “if a, then fuschia“. Your “rantings” at least compare apples and oranges, not apples and Super Star Destroyers.

    Although, I suspect TGF can help you get closer to Loughner’s way of thinking, if you really want that.

    malclave (4f3ec1)

  74. Anyone wonder how a State University professor in the middle of, say Tennessee, would react if one of his young, confused, and possibly unbalanced students were to confide in him that he was harboring thoughts about violence against Sarah Palin? It would be a big leap of faith for such a student to make such an admission. Surely it would be helpful if he had some sense of the professor’s sympathies. What if he were to google the professor’s name and discovered his contributions to public discourse?

    Blue Ox (ff919a)

  75. “Although, I suspect TGF can help you get closer to Loughner’s way of thinking, if you really want that.”

    malclave – I agree. You get the same deranged vibe from both.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  76. The sheriff may be making outrageous statements to cover up the fact that his office dropped the ball on this kid.

    They know him quite well from many telephoned threats to various people. The fact that his mother is a county employee may have be a motive to treat him with kid gloves. That blew up in their faces and it will eventually come out.

    Jared Loughner has been making death threats by phone to many people in Pima County including staff of Pima Community College, radio personalities and local bloggers. When Pima County Sheriff’s Office was informed, his deputies assured the victims that he was being well managed by the mental health system. It was also suggested that further pressing of charges would be unnecessary and probably cause more problems than it solved as Jared Loughner has a family member that works for Pima County. Amy Loughner is a Natural Resource specialist for the Pima County Parks and Recreation.

    This is going to be a scandal and he may be madly spinning the story to cover himself.

    Mike K (d6b02c)

  77. Bill Clinton blamed Rush Limbaugh and “rightwing talk radio” for the Oklahoma City bombing. The bomber/murderer Timothy McVeigh was asked what his reasons were for the actions he took and he said it was the federal government’s response to the Branch Davidians in Waco (people killed/innocent children burned alive) and Ruby Ridge that inspired him.

    But that didn’t stop Clinton’s lies and in this case, the fact that this Arizona murderer is a leftwing, pot smoking lunatic who planned this heinous act back in 2007 won’t stop the left from using it to try to marginalize Palin and the Tea Party grassroots movement, re-institute the Fairness Doctrine and further constrain First and Second Amendment rights.

    ColonelHaiku (15abe7)

  78. More rantings of a Mad(wo)man…
    Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) has….wait for it…introduced a bill to re-instate the Clinton Hi-Cap Magazine Ban.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  79. The magazine ban was ineffective as it banned only the manufacture and not possession.

    Mike K (8f3f19)

  80. Indeed, during the ban I legally purchased many magazines with capacity in excess of the limit. The law did nothing other than raise the price of such magazines a few dollars.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  81. Shhh…Don’t tell Carolyn, she actually thought it was the Savior of Mankind.
    And, it was quite a bit more than a “few” dollars in some applications.

    Even this dim-bulb from Long Island would hopefully recognize that to go door-to-door to confiscate every hi-cap in the land would set the country on a course that would make recent events pale in comparison.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  82. AD, well indeed, factory-made Glock mags over the 10 round limit about doubled in price. Same for Para Ordnance/STI mags that were popular in USPSA at the time. But that was the extreme.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  83. Interesting, Dave Hardy believes that Judge Roll was the first to strike down the original Brady act mandate that state officials run the background check system.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  84. Mike K, I feel the same way, obviously, but I don’t know if I’m being reasonable.

    I think that when the police assured people this criminal … this guy making threats … was no threat because was being managed by the system, that they had a responsibility to MANAGE HIM BY THE SYSTEM.

    Here’s a guy who the police admit is mentally ill, is threatening to hurt people, and if you google him, you get pictures of his pistol in the context of his threats. I really think they should have kept a closer eye on him, and at the very least explained to everyone he was threatening that he was armed. Giffords should have known he was armed and ramping up his ‘it’s time for the bodies to hit the floor, and they will call me a terrorist’ rhetoric.

    Maybe they lacked the manpower to do everything I’m asking? I guess we’re lucky he didn’t kill more people. the system worked. (snort)

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  85. @SPQR Yeah, but he was overturned.

    So his ruling made no difference.

    The Departed (d027b8)

  86. Ok. Legal question. When does “reckless disregard of the truth”, etc., apply to speech against a non-elected official that is a private citizen but is a “celebrity”?

    cedarhill (87aaa1)

  87. Maybe there is some issue of him being treated special because his mom was a county employee, but I would not jump to that conclusion. The reality is there are limited options in dealing with an adult who is psychotic unless they are an imminent threat to themselves or to others. Just as one can say, “This has been building for a long time” one can also say, “This guy has been making threats without acting them out for years, why should we have treated him any different last week than last month or last year?”

    Whether a intentional cover-up or not, the fact that the sheriff knows this person and his history and still has been doing the “violent rhetoric” nonsense makes things an order of magnitude more revolting.

    A very disturbed young man went on a killing spree. Until I hear otherwise, I will assume he has parents who have tried everything they can think of to get help for their son, but short of making a long term commitment into a residential facility against his will, something which is nigh unto impossible before the tragedy, not much can be done.

    Of course, if parents or someone knew he had recently purchased a gun and ammo that should have been a “trigger” to do something, but then, if he purchased stuff months or years ago… easy to say the parents should have confiscated them, but maybe they did and he bought more and kept it secret.

    I’m not saying be easy on the shooter, I’m just saying don’t be quick to think someone obviously dropped the ball…other than the sheriff being reprehensible for trying to make a political issue when he could have said right off the bat, “The suspect has a long history of mental illness and this is likely an irrational act”

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  88. The Departed, I don’t think so. I think that that USSC eventually upheld his decision, or at least one like it, but I don’t want to bother researching it.

    MD in Philly – hear, hear.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  89. Shall we look at the atmosphere of hate and violence generated by the right wing?

    Rand Paul Supporters Drag MoveOn Supporter To Ground And Stomp on Her Head

    Republican House Candidate Calls For Violent Government Overthrow If GOP Loses Election

    Self-Described ‘Christian Counterpart To Osama Bin Laden’ Arrested In Plot To Bomb Abortion Clinic

    Boehner Admits Some Tea Party Attendees ‘Want To Kill All Of Us In Public Office’

    Tea Party Sells ‘America’s Most Wanted’ Playing Cards With Pictures Of Federal Lawmakers

    GOP congressman: Palin’s ‘reload’ map with crosshairs targeted at House Democrats is ‘inappropriate.’

    Vandals hit at least five Dem offices nationwide, threaten to ‘assassinate’ children of pro-reform lawmakers.

    Pentagon Shooter Was Right-Wing, Anti-Government Terrorist

    Rep. King Justifies Suicide Attack On IRS: Sympathizes With Hatred Of IRS, Hopes For Its Destruction

    GOP congressional candidate pretends to shoot at Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz.

    REPORT: ‘We Will Overthrow The Government’ — Calls For Violence Repeatedly Stoked By Conservative Voices

    FBI Arrests White Supremacist Blogger Hal Turner For Threatening To Kill Federal Judges

    DHS Report: After Obama’s Election, Right-Wing Extremists ‘May Be Gaining New Recruits’

    I supplied links to all of these, perhaps someone will remove them from the filter.

    TGF (3d36ce)

  90. @82
    Heh. I especially like TGF’s last claim (the DHS report). It pretty much demonstrates that he has no credibility whatsoever, if there was any doubt.

    I might have been willing to to glance at some of the other reports, if not for the inclusion of the accusation against returning military veterans.

    malclave (4f3ec1)

  91. TGF, I haven’t checked on any of your examples except the one about Boehner “admits.” I think you are distorting what he said. I think this is much closer to what Boehner said,

    “Let me tell you about these events. Yeah, there’s some disaffected Republicans there. There are always some Democrats there. Always a couple of anarchists who want to kill all of us in public office. But I’ll tell you this: 75 percent of the people who show up at these events are the most average, everyday Americans you’ve ever met.”

    Ira (28a423)

  92. Yep, blame the “right wing” for the vandalism of the Democrats’ office in Denver during the 2008 DNC … oh, right, that was a leftist.

    Never mind.

    And of course, nothing in TGF’s list had anything to do with Loughner at all. Zip. Zilch.

    Instead, we’ve learned that Dupnik’s sheriff’s department discouraged people who had contact with Loughner from filing police reports.

    Another fail by TGF.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  93. TGF:

    Just is your point? Ivey the feeling you’re trying to day something in clever manner, but anyone can compile lists that cast their political opponents in a bad light.

    I can only imagine that you are trying to convince that the policies you agree with are correct and all would endorse those ideas if they could only understand the wisdom.

    Posting lists can be entertaining I suppose, but they don’t really provide any insight into why you believe the things you do or why others should agree with you for the betterment of society.

    I don’ know why you choose this method to advance your cause, but it doesn’t seem effective.

    Or you could just be slinging poo.

    Ag80 (e03e7a)

  94. I would like to know what this blog’s policies are regarding previous posters that are using multiple IP addresses, in order to cloak their identity.

    Dmac (498ece)

  95. “Pentagon Shooter Was Right-Wing, Anti-Government Terrorist”

    Epic Fail

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  96. TGF is Professor of Asshattery @ MTSU, William Yelverton.

    JD (d4bbf1)

  97. I love and hate the iPhone at the same time. Please forgive my typos.

    Ag80 (e03e7a)

  98. Rantings of a Madman is an appropriate thread for William Yelverton’s cowardly mendoucheous asshattery. That racist midget skin flute player is incapable of self reflection or shame, and continues to spit out the same dishonest vile drivel in an attempt to make a tragedy into a political point aginst those that do not share his extremist hateful views. get help, Willie the wee widdle midget.

    JD (d4bbf1)

  99. Me, Mario George Nitrini 111, Legally Challenge OJ Simpson Case
    1994-1995 Criminal Trial Attorney Mr. F. Lee Bailey to a LEGAL Debate
    in reference to OJ Simpson’s Regular Limousine driver Rocky Bateman
    who regularly drove OJ Simpson from approximately
    August of 1993 to June of 1994. I would REALLY like to see
    Mr. F. Lee Bailey LIE HIS WAY OUT OF THIS ONE……Just Like OJ Simpson Case Investigating LIAR Bill Pavelic could NOT………
    Mr. F. Lee Bailey has posted document’s claiming that he can prove
    that OJ Simpson is innocent, OK???????:
    In Mr F. Lee Bailey’s FIRST Download with this title:
    The Simpson Verdict by F. Lee Bailey, Mr Bailey states this
    on page 14:
    “10 St. John had been his regular driver for some time,…”
    OJ Simpson Case Investigator Patrick Mckenna, according Joseph Bosco, in Bosco’s Book, “A Problem of Evidence,” also claims, again according to Bosco, that Dale St. John is OJ Simpson’s “REGULAR LIMOUSINE DRIVER.” Let us ALL hope that Patrick Mckenna can “ENLIGHTEN” everyone about “WHO” really was OJ Simpson’s Regular Limousine Driver.
    In my Investigations of The Murders of Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman, I have pretty much determined that my Ex–in-Law Rocky Bateman GOT RID of that ‘The Missing Bag” and also got rid of other “STUFF” for OJ Simpson. Just Google me and Rocky Bateman
    WELL, in a June, 1995 CNN interview, it was stated that Rocky Bateman was OJ Simpson’s Regular Limousine driver for OVER 3 YEARS.
    WHY?????? is there NO MENTION in F. Lee Bailey’s Document’s that ROCKY BATEMAN was OJ Simpson’s Regular Limousine Driver?????
    Maybe Mr. F. Lee Bailey can “ENLIGHTEN” everyone in the world about this. Please, Don’t everybody hold their breath at once…….
    Mr. F. Lee Bailey????? I Legally have AUDIO TAPES…….AND
    Legal paperwork that’s VERY Legally telling…..
    Legal Justice for me –
    Who (s) MURDERED Bill Wasz. –
    and my
    My 18 Minute audio tape/Parker Center/OJ Simpson/Citizen’s Arrest’s, ECT
    Legally Understand this ALL people including:
    Mark Fuhrman —OJ Simpson Case LIAR AND RACIST PIG
    Ronald Y. Ito ( aka Ron Ito ) —Retired LAPD RHD Detective
    Charlie Beck —The Now Los Angeles Chief of Police
    Daniel Saunders —Anthony Pellicano Case Federal Prosecutor
    Steve Cooley —Los Angeles District Attorney
    Jeri Weinstein –Now LAPD Commander
    Any Person or Agency in The Federal Government ( The Internal Revenue Service, ect, ect…. )
    Any Person or Agency from The State of California Government
    that has “ANY” connection to:
    The OJ Simpson Case
    The Anthony Pellicano Federal Indictment Case
    The Biggie Smalls Federal Lawsuit Case
    The Michael Jackson Cases and Saga
    The Robert Blake Case
    The Mr. Bath Bear Debacle
    I LEGALLY will bring the truth out in The OJ Simpson Case and Saga.
    If Someone has a Legal Beef with me, we can Legally
    Dialect, talk it out, and Legally resolve it in a
    California State and The United States Federal Governmen People and Agencies:
    United States of American Civil Rights AGAIN, like was done in the past
    several times.
    The OJ Simpson Case
    The Anthony Pellicano Federal Indictment Case
    The Biggie Smalls Federal Lawsuit Case
    The Michael Jackson Cases and Saga
    The Robert Blake Case

    Mario George Nitrini 111 (ffd8af)

  100. JD, I don’t know who you are but I’m certain you have me confused with someone else. I just quote, and present facts. I report, you decide.

    TGF (3d36ce)

  101. Nice try, TGF, but Ira already showed you lied about one of your quotes. You said Boehner was talking about the right wing, and it was clear from the actual quote he was talking about anarchists.

    You’re a blatant liar.

    Some chump (4c6c0c)

  102. Aggressively lying, Yelverton, though playing stupid appears to come natural for yo.

    JD (d4bbf1)

  103. @92
    I report, you decide.

    Fair enough. I’ve decided you’re full of crap.

    malclave (4f3ec1)

  104. “Shall we look at the atmosphere of hate and violence generated by the right wing?”

    Why would I waste my time doing that when I can look at some real, serious violence carried out by liberal Democrat politicians?

    If I’m into looking at violence I can either look at Sarah Palin’s little map (no violence) or I can look at FDR firebombing Tokyo, which caused more than 100,000 civilian deaths (big time violence).

    Guess which one of those I’m going to choose if I want to really look at violence?

    Like it or not leftard, we have two political groups in this country: liberal Democrats and not-so-liberal Republicans…and there ain’t no question about which group is more violent.

    It’s your group…and, it ain’t even a close match. When it comes to slaughtering folks, and blowing crap up…you liberals rule.

    The only reason why you liberals don’t look like the biggest butchers who ever stalked planet earth is because there are guys like the Nazis and Communists to compare you to.

    Quite an honor, liberals. You don’t look too bad compared to mass-murdering thugs like Hitler or Stalin. That ought to make you proud.

    Dave Surls (f88125)

  105. _____________________________________

    Therefore, Jared Lee Loughner is a right-winger.

    As much as I’m aware of — and disgusted by — the corrupt, phony nature of liberal (or certainly ultra-liberal) sentiment, I admit to originally having a tiny bit of suspicion that the killer of the Democrat Congresswoman possibly was a rightwinger. The same thing crossed my mind last year when I first heard about the guy who drove his plane into that IRS building in Texas.

    That’s in spite of my delving into the true nature of the left-leaning mind over the past few years and finding quite a bit of information that indicates how truly rotten it can be.

    I guess one reason I’m always pasting snippets of surveys that indicate liberals actually are less generous — in donating time, money and blood — and, when it comes to young liberals in particular, kind-hearted than conservatives is to force myself — and others — to remember that point when first hearing about tragedies similar to the one that occurred in Arizona.

    The way the story of the murdered federal judge and bloodied Congresswoman has unwound over the past day or so — in which a variety of liberals have exploited it (ie, a replay of something along the lines of the Paul Wellstone funeral) — and a few of the comments on this blog from yesterday that pointed out just how many assassinations have involved perpetrators of the left, are further lessons in how liberal sentiment can really stink up everything and everyone.

    Mark (411533)

  106. “I admit to originally having a tiny bit of suspicion that the killer of the Democrat Congresswoman possibly was a rightwinger.”

    Well, there’s nothing wrong with that, Mark. It’s not like right wingers NEVER engage in violence. They just don’t do it as much as left wingers do.

    This isn’t an either or proposition, it’s a lesser of two evils proposition.

    Dave Surls (f88125)

  107. I’m looking at all the posts here trying to detail leftist rhetoric and ignoring right-wing rhetoric (for instance, the stuff that TGF posted in its first comment on this thread–those quotes are for real, you know), and wondering just who’s trying to score political points.

    Which is why I’m posting this link which I found through one of the sidebars on the NYDN link MD in Philly provided.

    And technical detail: while Congresswoman Giffords has a Jewish father and attends a Reform synagogue, she is not Jewish.

    kishnevi (127d58)

  108. And technical detail: while Congresswoman Giffords has a Jewish father and attends a Reform synagogue, she is not Jewish.

    Comment by kishnevi —

    Honestly, is it your place to say that someone isn’t an authentic Jew? Perhaps someone out there thinks I’m not a real Christian, but that’s not their place to say. I also think it’s really, really irrelevant. She attends a synagogue? Then she practices judaism. That’s her private affair.

    “Every time the congresswoman obeys a request to wiggle her toes or flex her thumb, “it implies that not only are the centers of the brain working, but they are communicating with one another,” said her neurosurgeon, Dr. Michael LeMole”

    That’s her latest. God bless her as she copes with this.

    You’re right that we should focus on the victims, Kishnevi. I really think that’s for the best.

    I think you misunderstand the idea behind citing leftist rhetoric. It’s not to suggest Kos (for example) is responsible for the killing, but rather to expose blatant hypocrisy. They are really irrational to blame Beck or whoever, but also obviously nasty to do this in a way that coarsens discourse, demonizes, and takes advantage of tragedy. That Sheriff for example is everything he falsely accuses his vague target of being.

    The quotes you inform us are accurate are not relevant, are they? Are those people blaming anyone for this murder? If not, then how are they relevant? They don’t expose hypocrisy. The only relevance of that crap is to claim they actually are responsible for violence.

    And I really doubt that’s the point you’re trying to make.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  109. they say don’t go on
    Yelverton Mountain if you’re
    looking for a life

    ColonelHaiku (15abe7)

  110. you know, this is situation reminds me of King’s The Stand: where Trash brings the bomb back to FLagg and blows everyone up. Violence and vitriol from the left has led to unintended consequences: a leftist has gunned down what he considered (and Kos supported) a traitor to the leftist cause. How dare she read the consitution on the House floor with the Republicans!

    john b (893fd4)

  111. You’ve totally baffled me, Kish. If her father is Jewish, she worships in a synagogue and her religion is listed as Judaism, why is she not Jewish??? It’s not because she was born in Arizona, is it? Yes, I am being sarcastic.

    PatAZ (537b43)

  112. Well, Dustin, I am Jewish. And Jewish law says that, lacking a Jewish parent, and not having undergone an Orthodox conversion (if she had, she would not be attending a Reform synagogue), she isn’t Jewish. There’s a good deal more formality and objective actions involved in becoming a Jew than there is Christianity. Rather like becoming a Roman Catholic involves performing certain actions, even though becoming a generic Christian does not (beyond accepting Jesus as Son of God). She is apparently like the large group of people in New Testament times who attended synagogues and perhaps participated in some Jewish observances, and would state their adherence to monotheism, but never formally converted–a group, btw, which many scholars think were a fertile source of members for the early Christian church.

    But enough of that:
    God bless her as she copes with this
    Amen and refuah shelemah (a complete healing) for her and the other survivors.

    As for the rest of your comment–I’ve been reading this blog’s posts for the last two days, and I see the same striving to score political points which Patterico and Aaron are complaining about when it comes from the Left.

    And some of it is rather absurd. For instance, commenting that 9/11 trutherism stems from a distrust of government, and claiming a linkage to the Left. The Left distrusts government? O RLY?

    And wherever Loughner picked up the idea of a return to the gold standard, it certainly wasn’t from the Left.

    The real problem with violent rhetoric (whether from the right or the left) is that repeated often enough, while a sane person will understand it be only rhetoric, it can make a wacko (for instance, Loughner) think that violent actions are acceptable.

    That’s all I have to say.

    kishnevi (127d58)

  113. Yes, defending the collective group against brazen lies is uncivil and is every bit as bad as using the bodies of the recently killed and injured to smear almost half of the country.

    JD (395555)

  114. lacking a Jewish parent

    should have been

    lacking a Jewish mother

    Apologies for being confusing.

    kishnevi (127d58)

  115. kishnevi – Yelverton’s links above are from Think Progress, a proven unreliable source. If you have a problem with letting lies stand, please explain yourself. If you believe violent political rhetoric is primarily the province of the right, as the left, I understand your point about posting to score points. Otherwise, the posts are to disprove the narrative of the left which has been appalling, slanderous and typical in the face violent incidents. The lists presented in the various threads confirm those facts. Read and educate yourself.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  116. _________________________________________

    Only because of the shootings in Arizona did I come across a comment in a readers’ forum on another website about the following event. An event that I barely knew anything about at the time and didn’t realize was another case of “d’oh! The suspect wasn’t a rightwing bigot after all!!”

    In connecting the dots of all these various stories — including events like John Kennedy being murdered in 1963 by an ultra-liberal — it really now has to be taken as a given that when any violent, politically-tinged act occurs, inevitably it will involve a person of left-leaning persuasion.

    The irony of these cases is too thick for words., August 2010:

    The apparent anti-Muslim assault on a New York city cabbie by a man shouting “Assalamu Alaikum. Consider this a checkpoint” produced an immediate round of recriminations over its connection to opposition to a New York Islamic Center and an apparent rising tide of Islamophobia.

    But as often at the intersection of politics and violent crime, the story doesn’t appear to fit any easy stereotype: The alleged assailant, Michael Enright, is — according to his Facebook profile and the website of the left-leaning media organization Intersections International — a student at the School of Visual Arts and a volunteer for Intersections, which recently produced a statement of support for the Park51 project [ie, the mosque next to the site of the 9-11 attack] and is funded by the mainstream, liberal Collegiate Church of New York.


    Mark (411533)

  117. If you believe violent political rhetoric is primarily the province of the right, as the left, I understand your point about posting to score points.

    First off, I’ve seen those quotes in several places; this is not a question of the credibility of Think Progress or any other single website. The leftists may be hypocritical, but they aren’t lying and nowhere near slanderous. The criticism of Kos posted here was less fact-based than Kos’s less than fact based attack on Palin.

    And certainly, it hasn’t been the left mooting about the possible necessity of anti-government violence in the last two years. The opponent of Harry Reid who talked about “Second Amendment solutions” was not a member of the Left, last time I checked.

    So when I see a long series of posts devoted to proving that the left has used violent rhetoric abundantly (one would have been quite enough), and ignoring some rather abundant violent rhetoric from the right–I know I’m in a Republican echo chamber, and all this is, is simply political posturing.

    I didn’t even need to see a long series of posts–I knew it from the post the other night posted in honor of the youngest murder victim. A very good post, until the last paragraph, which was simply a cobbled on complaint about the Left’s response that had nothing to do with honoring that young girl.

    kishnevi (92e4d0)

  118. Kishnevi:

    Both sides of the political spectrum have extremists advocating violence, but only the right is expected to justify or condemn it’s purile and outcast members.

    I’m sorry. I could have done without this whole sorry incitement to hatred, but Kos, Ebert, Krugman, Yglesias started blaming before the Congresswoman was out of surgery.

    Take your misplaced outrage somewhere where it counts. Besides, you got what you wanted, damn the facts.

    Ag80 (e03e7a)

  119. Ag – firedoglake blamed Palin within 45 minutes of the shooting.

    JD (395555)

  120. but only the right is expected to justify or condemn it’s purile and outcast members.

    So the 2010 Republican nominee for US Senate in Nevada is puerile and outcast?

    Besides, you got what you wanted, damn the facts.

    I won’t respond to that because I have no idea of what you mean there.


    kishnevi (92e4d0)

  121. As for the rest of your comment–I’ve been reading this blog’s posts for the last two days, and I see the same striving to score political points which Patterico and Aaron are complaining about when it comes from the Left.

    Let me honestly note that I think there probably are a few points to be made that are partisan, with respect solely to the horrible way some have tried to score points in unfair ways from this murder.

    That may seem hypocritical at first glance, but it really isn’t. If you’re asking people to not demogogue, you have to retain the ability to call that problem out.

    BTW, Kish, I just don’t accept the idea that someone, by virture of their version of a faith, gets to say someone isn’t a Jew. You disagree, and that’s your right, but I’m not discussing this under the rules of your particular faith and tradition, but merely logic.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  122. And, at any rate, I think it should just be learned that announcing that people are not really ‘X faith’ they seem to be practicing on their own is impolite.

    I’ve said this to Christians for decades, all around me from a million directions just because of an interesting religious dynamic in my family.

    It’s just not a good thing to bring up, is it? It’s not our call.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  123. “First off, I’ve seen those quotes in several places; this is not a question of the credibility of Think Progress or any other single website.”

    kishnevi – You mean you’ve seen those same talking points several places. Guess how they spread among the left and among commenters. Seeing them multiple places is no guarantee of accuracy. Most of them have been debunked. As I said, read and educate yourself. This isn’t about scoring points, it’s about fighting the lies.

    daleyrocks (e7bc4f)

  124. Apologies for being confusing.
    Comment by kishnevi — 1/10/2011 @ 7:45 pm

    — Copy this. Use it as your online signature.

    Icy Texan (d3f791)

  125. If no one else has mentioned it, remember that Obama’s left wing mentor planned the terrorist bombing of a an enlisted mens dance at a US military base, and would have carried it out with a major loss of life had his co-conspirators (inlcuding his girlfreind) not blown themselves to bits building his bomb.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  126. And the US has had a presidential candidate who attended a meeting where the assasination of US Senators was advocated and planned.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  127. So when I see a long series of posts devoted to proving that the left has used violent rhetoric abundantly (one would have been quite enough), and ignoring some rather abundant violent rhetoric from the right–I know I’m in a Republican echo chamber, and all this is, is simply political posturing.

    I don’t know how but somehow you missed the fact that the left is attempting to pin this on the right. That’s what set off this whole argument. If it wasn’t for that behavior all these threads on conservative sites detailing leftist loony rhetoric wouldn’t be here. I haven’t heard of anyone who is attempting to pin this on the left.

    That’s the point of bringing up the rather abundant leftist rhetoric that could be characterized as violent. It’s using the left’s own “logic” to show the idiocy of their attempts to pin this on Palin or Bachmann or whomever.

    It’s almost like you walked in to a room in the middle of a discussion without any idea how it started.

    Gerald A (9ef895)

  128. To go back to the purported topic of the post, this kid had a seriously weird family. Back in the days when psychoanalysis was still taken seriously, there was a concept of a “schizophrenogenic mother.” This kid might have had one. Or maybe the father. Anyway, they are not cooperating with the FBI. Strange freinds for Sheriff Dopenik to have.

    Mike K (8f3f19)

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