Patterico's Pontifications

10/27/2010

Political Violence is an Indictment Against the Cause that Motivates it… Except When We Do It (Update: New Video)

Filed under: General — Aaron Worthing @ 8:16 am

[Guest post by Aaron Worthing; if you have tips, please send them here.]

Update: Althouse has seven good points about the silliness of trying to turn this into proof that the Tea Party is a violent movement. Read the whole thing.

Update: Thanks to “Longwalker” in the comments who directed us toward Red State, where they have new video shot just before the incident, showing Valle’s aggressive behavior beforehand.  It doesn’t justify stepping on her, but it does justify taking her down and restraining her.

————-

Terrible violence visited the debate between Rand Paul and Jack Conway.  The Kentucky Post has the details:

The [incident] occurred after a Conway supporter stepped on the foot of a female Rand supporter, who recently had foot surgery, according to police.

The woman was wearing a surgical boot, but after the injury, her incision was cut open. Police say she refused medical treatment and also filed an assault report.

No arrests were made at the debate broadcast on Kentucky Education Television. No other information is available at this time.

Oh, wait, that’s not the assault everyone has been hearing about.  Nope, the assault everyone has been hearing about is the so-called curbstomper, who by the way didn’t actually stomp on her.  To quote Ann Althouse, “look closely. There is no head stomp. The head is on the curb, but the foot presses down on the shoulder. That ends pretty quickly.”  She later calls it a “restraint.”

Of course nothing could bring more joy to the hearts of the left than to see a woman assaulted on TV, given that they figured they could use it to their advantage.  How else do you explain the complete lack of interest in the other woman attacked?  And bear in mind, the moveon.org woman (who has a history of violence) had been charging toward Paul at that moment.  That is why most people don’t bother to criticize the decision to pull her down, because there was an understandable security concern.  Stepping on her, of course, was unjustified and indeed was condemned by an apparent Paul supporter at the scene, but gee could we turn down the drama queen routine a bit?  By comparison, read that quoted passage again about the other assault no one cares about.  The woman was wearing a surgical boot, so I doubt she presented much of a danger to anyone.  But where is the blogswarm to identify the assailant?  Where are the claims that the people who did this are brownshirts?  Where is Chris Matthews violating Godwin’s law?

But I can already hear the counter: but you see this was on video, so there are less facts in doubt, and let’s face it, it’s better fodder for TV.  Well, the funny thing is, so was the assault on Kenneth Gladney, and guess what?  If you look real close on the video you can see this black man getting stomped on by a white man, too. I mean I hate to focus on his race, but seriously could you imagine if Gladney had been a member of moron.org moveon.org, and his assailant was a member of the Tea Party?

But for some mysterious reason the left didn’t care very much about that.

The fact is the left is neck deep in hypocrisy on this.  Besides Gladney and the other woman attacked at the Paul-Conway debate, every time the G8 meets anywhere, there are violent protests to say the least, and just the other day the GOP HQ in Denver was vandalized.  Every time unions go on strike, especially the Teamsters, you can expect violence.  And do I have to remind you of the very credible allegation that Charlie Wilson beat his wife?  And police recently linked together the shootings at the Pentagon and the National Museum of the Marine Corps, and there is a third shooting at the Marine recruiting station in Chantilly, Virginia (that is fairly close to the other two).  I bet that is some right-wing extremist doing that, right?  So let’s not pretend that one side is Bull Connor and the other side is Martin Luther King, okay?

And don’t even get me started about how the left will also selectively ask “why they hate us?” and seek to blame the victim for the crime committed against him or her.  When terrorists murder Americans, the left cites that as an indictment on us for whatever we supposedly did to motivate that murder and generally claim that the violence will only stop if we adopt their progressive agenda.  But when Tim McVeigh murders Americans, the left suddenly is not interested in why he did it.  And mind you, they shouldn’t be interested in his motives.  I mean Tim McVeigh set off that bomb because he hoped it would spark a rebellion of white “Christians” to take over the government, kill all non-whites and non-“Christians” and then nuke Isreal.  And to explain why it was okay to murder many white Christian babies to accomplish his goal, he cited the precedent of blowing up the second Death Star in Return of the Jedi.  In other words, McVeigh was a racist idiot, whose views should be disregarded.  But you can say the same thing about al Qaeda; they are a bunch of religiously-bigoted idiots, and their motives should be equally ignored except for the limited purpose of trying to predict what they will do next.

And the claim that injustice motivates violence would work particularly well for the Tea Party, if the left was willing to be consistent about it.  Massive unemployment, massive debt, government takeover and the attendant corruption that goes with it, they have a lot of just reasons to complain, and maybe even be angry.  But no one would claim that violent acts like stepping on this woman was justified by the terrible policies of the last two years, as well they shouldn’t.

Both men who assaulted women at the Paul-Conway debate should be prosecuted and no excuses should be made.  But the fact is that the selective condemnation and hysteria coming from the left demonstrates that this really isn’t about human compassion toward Lauren Valle.  It’s about politics and nothing more.  Americans can and should see through this for what it is.

Oh, and an exit question.  If someone goes on The View and says that a Rand Paul supporter attacked Ms. Valle, will Whoopi Goldberg and Joy Behar walk off the set?  Yeah, I didn’t think so, either.

———

Sidebar: Why is moveon.org called this?  Because they were originally founded to tell republicans to “move on” past the Lewinsky scandal.  Moveon.org, it’s been over a decade and you are still using that name.  Isn’t it time to, you know, move on?

———-

I have talked about the use of random violence to score political points before, here.

Updated: Dang AutoCorrect turned Corps to Corporations and I failed to notice.  Thanks to AD.  And a capitalization fixed.

[Posted and authored by Aaron Worthing.]

218 Responses to “Political Violence is an Indictment Against the Cause that Motivates it… Except When We Do It (Update: New Video)”

  1. Aaron, what is a “Marine Corporations“?

    AD-RtR/OS! (c987f6)

  2. Ad

    the answer is autocorrect gone wrong. it automatically change corps to corporations and i failed to notice.

    thanks for the assist, even if i am starting to dread seeing your comments. :-)

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  3. Oh, you think it’s bad now, wait until I’ve had my 3rd cup of coffee!

    AD-RtR/OS! (c987f6)

  4. Your comments in the post re McVeigh are interesting.
    His motivations seem to be very similar to someone that the Left has sort of taken-to-heart in a strange manner: Charles Manson!
    Both were out to start a race war, yet Charley is beloved (particularly by those who find a life in “recreational pharmocology” and the “Turn On, Tune In, Drop Out” lifestyle), but Tim – boy, he’s just one big Evil nut case, thinking he could take on the Feds.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c987f6)

  5. Taking what you’ve said and what Lawyers, Guns, & Money said in “Strategies for Brownshirt Apologists”, what’s the rule?

    Fritz (ac48cc)

  6. The Rule is to never pollute your mind with the writings, musings, whatevers, of Paul Campos.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c987f6)

  7. Why would the ‘dont tread on me’ movement be at all set back by its adherents…treading on people?

    imdw (3ac9fb)

  8. Snark from you imdw only reinforces your hypocrisy.

    SPQR (d454d9)

  9. The rule is you prosecute the criminal for the crime, whether it’s the SEIU guy that bear up Gladney,(humor me, right) or Mr. Profft, no special circumstance, hate crime laws et al

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  10. fritz

    comparing one guy going slightly overboard to the organized terror of the brownshirts is an insult to every jew that survived the holocaust.

    i could ask you the same question about the left deals with its violence. hell, we have one terrorist who is best friends with the president, and another who is best friends with brad friedman. The left clearly only condemns certain violence.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  11. Unfreakingbelievable. Yes, do everything you can to legitimize a man stomping on a woman because she is a member of move.on.

    “look closely. There is no head stomp. The head is on the curb, but the foot presses down on the shoulder. That ends pretty quickly.”

    Look closely, those people we tortured were terrorists.

    W (9df40f)

  12. W

    Ah, so if i don’t engage in hyperbole, I am legitimizing it.

    *rolls eyes*

    drama queen much?

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  13. W, non sequitur much?

    SPQR (d454d9)

  14. “And don’t even get me started about how the left will also selectively ask “why they hate us?” and seek to blame the victim for the crime committed against him or her.”

    They hate us because of our freedoms.

    imdw (96a92b)

  15. “look closely. There is no head stomp. The head is on the curb, but the foot presses down on the shoulder. That ends pretty quickly.”

    Ah, well. Nothing to see here then.

    And then AW doesn’t hesitate to say that the moveon.org woman “has a history or violence”… and when you follow his link, apparently we’re talking about painting words on the side of a ship (i.e., vandalism).

    Does spin get any more desperate?

    Kman (d25c82)

  16. OMG!
    Stop the Presses!
    Reality has crept into the closed little world inhabited by the wad-one.
    There is Hope after all; it’s just that the price has been so high that there is no “change” back.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c987f6)

  17. Does spin get any more desperate?

    I’ll let you know after the next Chuckie Schumer presser.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c987f6)

  18. imdw

    if you really want to make AQ happy, this is what you do.

    1) ban blasphemy.
    2) force women out of the workforce and under burqas.
    3) kill all gay people.
    4) make islam the official religion
    5) create an “islamic” government.
    6) discriminate against all non-muslims.
    7) nuke isreal. or at least stand by and do nothing as a second holocaust occurs.

    can we agree that this proposal is a non-starter?

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  19. We can see that quickly Lauren Valle is becoming the new Rachel Corrie.

    you know just last weekened i went to the International House of Pancakes in honor of Ms. Corrie…

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  20. who by the way didn’t actually stomp on her

    ???

    I agree that he didn’t stomp on her head, but he clearly did stomp on her.

    Foo Bar (c1726e)

  21. Well, #2 would open up more jobs for guys, and we wouldn’t be forced to look at “do’s” such as that seen on Debbie Wasserman-Schultz (Heh!).

    AD-RtR/OS! (c987f6)

  22. Foo Bar…I think he was “restraining” her.
    Would it have been any better if he had done a full-press on her as used in a “swarming” technique?
    He stated that due to a IIRC back injury, he couldn’t bend down; so, in a perceived emergency, he “restrained” her in a manner that was possible without aggravating his injury further – unlike the SEIU thug who stomped on a woman’s foot (encased in a soft cast) opening up the sutures from the foot surgery she had just undergone.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c987f6)

  23. you know just last weekened [sic] i went to the International House of Pancakes in honor of Ms. Corrie…

    Hahaha! That’s funny because it’s TRUE! Rachel Corrie was squashed by bulldozers and she was a liberal, and it funny when libruls die.

    Seriously…. something is wrong with you people.

    Kman (d25c82)

  24. “can we agree that this proposal is a non-starter?”

    Oh I was talking about Proffit. And yes. Appeasing him would be a non-starter.

    imdw (095c5d)

  25. “can we agree that this proposal is a non-starter?”

    I was talking about Proffit. And yes. Appeasing him would be a non-starter.

    imdw (0172f3)

  26. Kman, its funny when Leftists die because of their own incompetence and when their defense of terrorists backfires on them.

    Hilarious in fact.

    SPQR (d454d9)

  27. Foo…I believe “to stomp” on someone requires raising the foot to some height, and bringing it down in an aggressive, fast act (often repeatedly).
    To me, the video shows someone placing his foot on her shoulder – and keeping it there – to ensure that she stayed on the ground, and stopped presenting a threat to Mr. Paul.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c987f6)

  28. Rachel Corrie was squashed by bulldozers and she was a liberal, and it funny when libruls die.

    The use of human shields is a war crime. She died because she decided to be a war criminal. While I’m not cheering her death, I realize the jokes about it are trying to shift blame onto the person deserving it.

    At any rate, Kman can’t see the humor in gallows humor because he’s reflexively opposed rather than thoughtful.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  29. but he clearly did stomp on her.

    Comment by Foo Bar

    Can you show a link to a video and give me the point in the video this happens? I don’t want to be repeating things that aren’t true, and my impression was that this was a distortion of what happened.

    He was restraining her with his foot, and that is pretty stupid for a political volunteer, but he wasn’t stomping her head or her shoulder.

    She shouldn’t have ran towards the candidate, and she shouldn’t have been restrained in the way she did, but I don’t see this as a big deal. I see the way it’s been described as a big deal.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  30. “and stopped presenting a threat to Mr. Paul.”

    Boy y’all have really taken to heart AW’s careful look at the use of the word “alleged” huh?

    imdw (627491)

  31. Well, I think she was presenting a threat to Mr. Paul, and that’s my opinion, and I’m sticking to it.
    You may now speak to the hand, and the finger extended from it.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c987f6)

  32. imdw, you’re being irrational again.

    Her behavior was somewhat indicative of impending danger. Even if she wasn’t going to do anything (I buy that), the term threat is literally justified.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  33. If someone said ‘the impending attack’, that would be different. But ‘threat’ works fine.

    I remind folks that the so-called stomper wanted the police to intervene. He really did see this as a threat, and those saying it was simply an attempt to silence speech are either lying or idiots.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  34. “He really did see this as a threat, and those saying it was simply an attempt to silence speech are either lying or idiots.”

    Or maybe he’s confused about those two (speech and threat). Is it a threat that she wants to go up to Rand and present him with a poster, or get her picture with him? Maybe a paranoid teanut thinks so.

    imdw (043f60)

  35. the legal standard for self-defense and the defense of others is whether a reasonably prudent person would believe there was a threat.

    So maybe she wasn’t a threat in the sense that she literally intended to harm Rand Paul. i believe that to be the case. but i think anyone there reasonably perceived her to be one.

    Which doesn’t justify stepping on her head, but 100% justified taking her down to the ground and restraining her.

    Dustin

    the chris matthews link has some slightly different footage, and i think you can hear the talking a little clearer. fwiw.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  36. If some rightwing nutcase had run up to Barack Obama wearing a wig and holding a suspicious item, getting tackled and having a foot placed on their shoulder would be the best result they could hope for–more likely, the Secret Service would insure that person’s family would be identifying their corpse in the morgue.

    All the attention on this is little more than street theater.

    The woman got exactly what she wanted–to provoke a reaction, and the status of Leftwing Martyr For The Cause. Rather than be sincerely horrified at her treatment, she’ll be bragging about it to her friends for the rest of her days. So the outrage from the left on this story really isn’t serious in the least–it’s just a convenient cipher for their current political desperation.

    Another Chris (2d8013)

  37. Thanks, Aaron.

    I really wish this guy had thought about the implications of his behavior. A lot of Tea Partiers have heard about SEIU violence, finger removal, and Obama chants to ‘punch back’. Some of them are a little worried these lefties will attack again. It’s no surprise that one of them thought this woman was approaching Paul to do something over the line.

    But they gotta realize this is part of the game. When dealing with political agitators, you have to assume you’re on video the entire time. Even if you’re using the same amount of force with your hands or your foot, your foot can be lied into a ‘head stomp.’ Paul’s going to win his election anyway, but we’re at the beginning of the Tea Party movement.

    This won’t be the last time someone is restrained because they tried to start something. Paid security, and considering optics, are important issues for every Tea Partier to think about.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  38. Or maybe he’s confused about those two (speech and threat). Is it a threat that she wants to go up to Rand and present him with a poster, or get her picture with him? Maybe a paranoid teanut thinks so.

    Amazing. In an ocean of idiots, you truly are Poseidon.

    Another Chris (2d8013)

  39. “but i think anyone there reasonably perceived her to be one.”

    Cops didn’t. But a paranoid teanut did.

    imdw (842182)

  40. imdw, you harassed someone’s family with implied violent threats by posting their address, and your defense of this was to deny your own behavior (proxies for your rampant trolling, use of many different handles, etc). You’re 100X worse than this ‘teanut’ who restrained a woman and then admitted what he did frankly.

    It’s not hard to understand why a creep would want to focus on judging others.

    At any rate, the cop was informed there was going to be a problem, and there was a problem. He should have stepped in, if he was able to.

    You’ll keep saying this Tea Partier was paranoid, despite all the evidence of attacks, for the same reason you have to call him yet another silly angry name. Your world view is just too narrow.

    I can’t imagine being so embarrassed about my behavior that I had to hide behind a proxy and post people’s addresses. I guess you’ve moved on to another one, right? democrats.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  41. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ1nniVAsss

    To say that he was “restraining” her doesn’t make much sense to me, since he takes his foot off almost immediately.

    He clearly presses down on her with a sharp, jabbing motion with his foot, then gets off her again fairly quickly. It’s certainly a lot closer to a “stomp” than a “restraining”.

    Foo Bar (c1726e)

  42. I don’t want to quibble with this, Foo bar. It’s not a stomp. She wasn’t trampled violently.

    He was stupid and wrong to step on her like that when trying to keep her on the ground. It just looks terrible, and it’s predictable that folks would distort that into ‘he was stomping her head’. There’s no doubt the initial claims about this were exaggerated, and that’s just predictable.

    I hope Tea Partiers learn that part of the reason the left is starting scenes at Tea Parties is to generate these episodes. You don’t run towards a candidate like that. It was right to restrain her, and if she resisted the restraint, it would have been right to tase her or mace her or whatever tool security/police had. But a volunteer using his foot was just plain stupid.

    There’s no question to me that he used his foot to keep her in place, and away from the candidate she ran towards. I guess it’s not restraint as in handcuffs? It’s more like restraint as in taser?

    Saying ‘clearly he did stomp her’ is not accurate. And it’s taking half the head-stomp lie, as though it would be OK to only half-lie. No, Soros’s stooges lied again, because that’s what they are paid to do. If someone tries some strange stunt with an object around a candidate, democrat or republican or otherwise, they need to be restrained. This was a clumsy and ugly way to do that, and I prefer professional security or police do it.

    The notion he was actually stomping on her, violently jumping up and down to trample her head into the ground, because she was a lefty, is a complete fabrication. Those who made those claims cannot stand behind them, and now are saying, ‘well, he used his foot, and only for a brief time, and those are also characteristics of stomping’.

    Let’s be reasonable.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  43. Please don’t attempt to engage in anything regarding reasoned discourse with PoosFar.

    you know just last weekened i went to the International House of Pancakes in honor of Ms. Corrie…

    AW FTW!

    Dmac (ad2c6a)

  44. There is a video at Red State that shows what was happening immediately prior to the this video. It shows the MoveOn person rushing at Paul’s auto and security moving in. If this had been the President’s auto, the Secret Service would have reacted in the same manner. It is not true that the Secret Service would have shot anyone acting like the MoveOn person but they would have “taken her down” as fast as possible. As the Red State video puts the MoveOn person in a bad light, the MSM will ignore it.

    Longwalker (996c34)

  45. PoosFar and Kmart saw nothing wrong with a Rand Paul supporter having her bandaged foot split open, but are outraged by a push to the side of their heroic moonbat screecher.

    Dmac (ad2c6a)

  46. She’s fortunate that nobody gave a full helping of fist-sandwich right square in the chops.

    AD-RtR/OS! (c987f6)

  47. It looks like Valle really wanted to be an ecoterrorist but got stuck working for the morons at Moveon.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  48. PoosFar and Kmart saw nothing wrong with a Rand Paul supporter having her bandaged foot split open

    For the record, yes, of course that was also a terrible incident.

    Foo Bar (c1726e)

  49. Brought to you by, the white christian eabaggert science denying, incest rapist rights affirming, women subjugating American Taliban

    1) ban blasphemy –
    Bible – Commandment #3, death for blasphemy found in the Bible: Leviticus 24:13-16, 1 Timothy 1:20,

    2) force women out of the workforce and under burqas –
    Repeal the Democrats Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act for women Act that 23 GOP senators voted against,
    Women must be subservient to husbands foiund in Bible: Ephesians 5:22, Colossians 3:18

    3) kill all gay people. – Biblical decree: Leviticus 20:13
    Found in the Bible

    4) make islam the official religion –
    Make a religious test for office. i.e. Judson Phillips, the founder of the Tea Party Nation, sent supporters an email last night defending his decision to endorse independent Lynne Torgerson based on Rep. Keith Ellison’s faith. “Should Muslims be denied the right to run for office because of their religion? No,” wrote Phillips.

    5) create an “islamic” government.
    See above. A christian test for public office. O’Donnell, Palin and Angle said it was “Gods Plan” that they be elected.

    6) discriminate against all non-muslims.
    See tea party marches against Mosques in several states.

    7) nuke isreal. or at least stand by and do nothing as a second holocaust occurs.
    Bomb Iran – every neocon yearns for it

    W (9df40f)

  50. W, put the bong down.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  51. W

    > the white christian eabaggert science denying, incest rapist rights affirming, women subjugating American Taliban

    Nice that you got personal so fast. F— you right back.

    > Bible – Commandment #3

    All of those are commands to the faithful not to commit blasphemy. Slight difference, you know.

    > Repeal the Democrats Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act for women Act

    The act was about the statute of limitations.

    > Women must be

    Again, not enforced by law. Jerk.

    > Found in the Bible

    Where?

    > Make a religious test for office. i.e. Judson Phillips, t

    Except your quote had him affirm his right to run. Assuming it is a real quote anyway. And who is this guy?

    > O’Donnell, Palin and Angle said it was “Gods Plan” that they be elected.

    Christians believe that everything that happens to them is God’s plan. And I would love to see the quote where they claimed holy endorsement. I am calling bull—- on that.

    > See tea party marches against Mosques in several states.

    I know of two. Name more.

    > Bomb Iran – every neocon yearns for it

    Yes, because IRAN WANTS TO NUKE ISRAEL.

    To compare Israel to iran is offensive and idiotic. Its like comparing us to the Nazis. Which come to think of it, you probably do that too.

    Foo Bar

    > For the record, yes, of course that was also a terrible incident.

    So why no denunciations of that. why not talk about the brownshirt who did that to her?

    Aaron Worthing (f97997)

  52. Are you a teabagger, Aaron Worthing?

    W (9df40f)

  53. Sigh. Dyslexic trolls.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  54. W – Go bugger another goat. It will calm you down.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  55. W – You remind me of the street people I used to see walking around Times Square talking to themselves. How do you live with all your fears and delusions?

    Boo!

    daleyrocks (940075)

  56. A teabagger assaults a small young woman stepping on her head – no problem. A teabagger gets a foot stepped on in a crowd – criminal assault.

    Pathetic.

    KY is the perfect place to have incest rapists rights to procreate with their daughters protected. You should be proud for what you stand for.

    Rand Paul is a fraud , a bigot and yet another Christian dominionist.

    W (9df40f)

  57. incest rapists rights

    LOL. What a disgusting argument, imdw. New proxy, I take it? The pervert slams combined with the tiptoeing around the issue of the day is a little obvious, IMO.

    Anyhow, I’m pretty sure we do think there’s a problem with the way a volunteer stepped in to the moveon stunt. And you characterized an assault as ‘a foot stepped on’, which is precisely the offense you accuse us of.

    So another reflexive projection combined with nastiness. The mask slips right off, yet again. I’m not crazy enough to pretend all lefties are like you, rather than patriotic progressives like Aphrael, but you need to get your damn head checked out.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  58. Distgusting – I agree. But that is what Rand Paul supports, along with his teabagger colleagues.

    W (9df40f)

  59. W, that you are trying so hard to troll removes the element of humor.

    At any rate, you’re guilty of what you accused us of, as I showed. You’re also calling people bigot while making radical generalizations based on 1 data point.

    You’re also lying about the argument against abortion, which is not related to the rights of rapists, but rather the right of a person to live despite the sins of his parent. It’s an exercise in intellectual honesty, and it’s hard for me to understand a pro-life person who supports abortion rights for rape victims.

    You don’t need to generalize… the guy you hate is right here.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  60. The right of ‘a person’ to live. Yea, forget about that 12 yr old that just got raped by her uncle, or father, you don’t want to punish a zygote for the sins of that nasty 12 yr old girl.

    You are fucked up.

    W (9df40f)

  61. “LOL. What a disgusting argument, imdw. New proxy, I take it? The pervert slams combined with the tiptoeing around the issue of the day is a little obvious, IMO.”

    I’m like emmanuel goldstein. All your fears and problems can be fixed on one individual.

    imdw (47a9bf)

  62. imdw, you use tons of screennames and change your screen name a lot. You often show great care in how you describe a current issue while also showing amazingly tone-deaf perversion (such as your Glenn Beck raping kids jokes).

    You can’t very well complain now that no one really knows what is and isn’t your commentary. If W isn’t really you, you may have found a long-lost twin. If you have a problem with my assumption that you’re trolling and rude and changing your name, you sure have a strange way of showing it, given your history.

    Do you deny being W? Are you and he both using proxy servers?

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  63. imdw, you use tons of screennames and change your screen name a lot.

    I meant to say you change screen name and IP addresses, rather.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  64. That was a joke. I’m not really Emmanuel Goldstein. That’s a fictional character.

    imdw (16090e)

  65. Dustin, Thanks for showing us how a religious imperative can warp people to the point of brutality and lack of compassion for an innocent rape victim, because it’s really the victim’s fault and that innocent 12 yr old girl needs to carry her incest rapists baby to term, that’s her punishment in your – the teabagger interpretation of ‘Gods law’.

    Let this staggering lack of empathy and disgusting level of subjugation and self-rightoeusness show there truly is an American version of the Taliban and how religion can obscure compassion and display the hypocrisy of group that supposedly want sto get government out of our lives yet enforce their will and regulations by law on the most private and personal issues.

    Thanks for making this clear for us, Dustin.

    W (9df40f)

  66. KY is the perfect place to have incest rapists rights to procreate with their daughters protected. You should be proud for what you stand for.

    W, your personal fantasies are none of our business.

    Another Chris (2e9afa)

  67. He doesn’t come off very musical, a lot of sour notes

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  68. W – Go bugger another goat. It will calm you down.

    You’re assuming that the goat would allow him within a 100 – yard radius of it’s personal space. Animals have a strong sense of other beings that are truly sick, and act accordingly out of self – preservation.

    This has got to be imadouchebag – same vernacular, same moronic links. Alternet? Busted.

    Dmac (ad2c6a)

  69. Dustin, Thanks for showing us how a religious imperative can warp people to the point of brutality and lack of compassion for an innocent rape victim, because it’s really the victim’s fault and that innocent 12 yr old girl needs to carry her incest rapists baby to term, that’s her punishment in your – the teabagger interpretation of ‘Gods law’.

    Who has claimed that girls who became pregnant as the result of rape should be forced to give birth?

    Besides, there would be little support from women for forcing pregnant rape victims to give birth. Most women oppose race mixing and such a policy will force some women and girls to violate their moral beliefs.

    Michael Ejercito (249c90)

  70. Comment by W — 10/27/2010 @ 6:15 pm

    Nothing whatever religious about recognizing the medical facts about very young children in the womb (here’s some at just eight weeks: they’ve had brain waves for two weeks and a heartbeat for four).

    Quite a number of pro-life atheists around — Nat Hentoff is a famous, very vocal and longtime example — and even more famously, Bernard Nathanson, for quite a while (but many years **after** becoming a prolife atheist, he became a Catholic.

    But it’s apparently more convenient to pretend these are photoshopped by “teabaggers” or something. If you didn’t know these facts about the unborn, it’s you who have been teabagged. By those media who lean left and would like to keep people from finding out that religious faith merely instructs us to aid the helpless, it doesn’t point out for us who those helpless are.

    I for one am mightily tired of so called “pro-choice” people ignoring the choice of one of the main interested parties, and imposing THEIR morality — fatally — on a living, growing human being.

    Is incest a horrible thing? Yes it is. Killing an unborn child doesn’t erase that evil. It compounds it.

    no one you know (72db9b)

  71. W,

    As I said, it’s not about punishing the rape victim. I realize it’s absolutely ridiculous to engage someone like you, since my entire point was that you’re not showing intellectual honesty while I am.

    I guess I could just play your game and note you’re murdering children just because you hate their fathers. Indeed, that’s not far from the truth.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  72. 1) The “pro-life” community in Amerca is 99.9% comprised of religious Christians. It is a religious movement and religion has no business being law in a free society.

    2) The “pro-life” community lies and decieves by showing cut up fetuses from late term abortions which comprise only one pecent of abortions

    3) The “pro-life” community lies and decieves by making statements about “brain waves at 8 weeks.”

    If you want to live in a society run by religious imperatives, perhaps you could consider the Vatican or Iran.

    It is absolutely sickening they people such would force a 12 yr old child, an innocent victim, to bear an incest rapists child. This may seem extreme to some of you thinking readers out there but the banning of abortion with NO exceptions IS the GOP party platform, although most GOP candidates, except for a few teabagger religious nutjobs, do not support this ‘no exceptions’ policy. Only 23% of Americans in the latest poll think abortion should be illegal (CBS 8/10). (Probably the same people who deny evolution and think Obama is a Kenyan Muslim Marxist).

    Pro life my ass, it is anti-women. Subjugate them, make them subservient, just like the Bible tells you to.

    W (9df40f)

  73. 1) The “pro-life” community in Amerca is 99.9% comprised of religious Christians. It is a religious movement and religion has no business being law in a free society.

    2) The “pro-life” community lies and decieves by showing cut up fetuses from late term abortions which comprise only one pecent of abortions

    3) The “pro-life” community lies and decieves by making statements about “brain waves at 8 weeks.”
    http://eileen.250x.com/Main/Einstein/Brain_Waves.htm

    If you want to live in a society run by religious imperatives, perhaps you could consider the Vatican or Iran.

    It is absolutely sickening they people such would force a 12 yr old child, an innocent victim, to bear an incest rapists child. This may seem extreme to some of you thinking readers out there but the banning of abortion with NO exceptions IS the GOP party platform, although most GOP candidates, except for a few teabagger religious nutjobs, do not support this ‘no exceptions’ policy. Only 23% of Americans in the latest poll think abortion should be illegal (CBS 8/10). (Probably the same people who deny evolution and think Obama is a Kenyan born Muslim Marxist).

    Pro life my ass, it is anti-women. Subjugate them, make them subservient, just like the Bible tells you to.

    W (9df40f)

  74. 1) The “pro-life” community in Amerca is 99.9% comprised of religious Christians. It is a religious movement and religion has no business being law in a free society.

    2) The “pro-life” community lies and decieves by showing cut up fetuses from late term abortions which comprise only one pecent of abortions

    3) The “pro-life” community lies and deceives by making statements about “brain waves at 8 weeks.”

    If you want to live in a society run by religious imperatives, perhaps you could consider the Vatican or Iran.

    It is absolutely sickening they people such would force a 12 yr old child, an innocent victim, to bear an incest rapists child. This may seem extreme to some of you thinking readers out there but the banning of abortion with NO exceptions IS the GOP party platform, although most GOP candidates, except for a few teabagger religious nutjobs, do not support this ‘no exceptions’ policy. Only 23% of Americans in the latest poll think abortion should be illegal (CBS 8/10). (Probably the same people who deny evolution and think Obama is a Kenyan Muslim Marxist).

    Pro life my ass, it is anti-women. Subjugate them, make them subservient, just like the Bible tells you to.

    W (9df40f)

  75. Yes, in the mind of the nutjob…
    a zygote is more of a human and deserves more protection than a 12 yr old incest rape victim.

    That IS your position. Be intellectually honest. Own it.

    W (9df40f)

  76. 2) The “pro-life” community lies and decieves by showing cut up fetuses from late term abortions which comprise only one pecent of abortions

    Say, W, what percentage of abortions are of rape+incest (your repeated example)?

    Don’t tell me it’s less than one percent. Why, you’d be a flaming hypocrite again.

    1) The “pro-life” community in Amerca is 99.9% comprised of religious Christians. It is a religious movement and religion has no business being law in a free society.

    Say, wasn’t the abolistionist movement compromised primarily of religious Christians? Why, civil rights movements in America have always been dominated by clergy. The entire premise of all man being equal has been that they were created equal, after all. The KKK has always had a huge problem with any involvement of religious ideas with the formulation of laws, but it’s not clear to me why this is some kind of moral objective.

    We’re a pretty religious country, and a democracy. We should protect ourselves from actual theocracy, or as Aphrael put it, the state encouraging one religion over another, but that’s a far cry from taking the good lessons from our faiths and applying it to how we decide to make our laws.

    I realize it’s getting hard to type with all that froth coming out of your mouth onto your keyboard, but perhaps you should take a second, dry off, and try being a little reasonable.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  77. a zygote is more of a human and deserves more protection than a 12 yr old incest rape victim.

    That IS your position. Be intellectually honest. Own it.

    Comment by W

    Are you saying I want to kill this rape victim? BTW, didn’t you just condemn the use of footage from late term abortions because they were unusual? Why would someone do that, while repeatedly using your peculiar example (name a single case of this specific victim in the last year, please)?

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  78. O’Donnell, Palin and Angle said it was “Gods Plan” that they be elected.

    No, they did not. I cannot find anywhere where they both made that claim. If you have a link, I would appreciate it.

    With that, here is what Palin said,

    Palin thought her vice presidential candidacy was “God’s plan.”

    and O’Donnell said,

    “God is the reason that I’m running,” tea-party darling Christine O’Donnell told David Brody of the Christian Broadcasting Network. “If I didn’t believe that there were a cause greater than myself worth fighting for, if I didn’t believe that it takes a complete dying of self to make things right in this election cycle, I would not be running.

    These are quite different than saying it was God’s plan they get elected.

    Essentially, W, you have thrown out a barrel full of messed up monkeys on this thread, as well as a breathtaking lack of understanding regarding the essence of Christian faith.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  79. I also reject the notion that this rape/incest victim’s interests must be in conflict with the interests of her baby.

    It’s an extreme example, cherry picked for effect, despite the fact that even today, most pregnant rape victims want their babies to be born. Even though the child came into being via a horrible act, there is the notion of good coming from evil. I know I’m not being very creative here… this is a well worn argument. Abortion will not magically undo this repulsive act… it just eliminates a person from being born. Some would say it’s also very cost effective.

    It would be just as reasonable of me to pick an extreme example, such as Obama saying he wouldn’t want his daughter punished with a baby, obviously speaking to lifestyle of a millionaire family.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  80. 3) The “pro-life” community lies and deceives by making statements about “brain waves at 8 weeks.”

    It’s actually six weeks, not eight.

    Heart beat about 4 to 5 weeks (depending on what source you look at — about the middle of the 4th week apparently).

    More to the point, six weeks from what? Four weeks from what? From the beginning of this new human being’s life.

    Hmm, where did I mention God or the BIble there? I didn’t. You simply do not have the facts.

    Pro life my ass, it is anti-women. Subjugate them, make them subservient, just like the Bible tells you to.

    Comment by W — 10/27/2010 @ 7:28 pm

    Yer pretty funny. I am a woman. And very far from subservient.

    no one you know (72db9b)

  81. Educate yourself about the victims you are producing.

    Effects of Rape
    Victims are 3 times more likely to suffer from depression.
    6 times more likely to suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder.
    13 times more likely to abuse alcohol.
    26 times more likely to abuse drugs.
    4 times more likely to contemplate suicide.

    Pregnancies Resulting from Rape
    In 2004-2005, 3,204 pregnancies occured a result of rape.

    Yes, those nasty rape victims should be punished, force ’em to bear the child so they will have a lifetime reminder their sin.

    Americans take note… these are the people poised to control our legislatures.

    W (9df40f)

  82. Dealing with Yelverton, is so much of a chore, it’s kind of the way they train folks in music using one of those wooden flutes, makes one dislike music for a while

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  83. 2) The “pro-life” community lies and decieves by showing cut up fetuses from late term abortions which comprise only one pecent of abortions.

    Why do you assume they are lying and being deceptive when they show cut up fetuses babies from late term abortions – what exactly do you think is growing inside the womb? Those late term babies were quite capable surviving outside the womb if given the opportunity, so exactly what were they if not babies? What terminology should we use so that you can be comfortable with the butchery, your conscience unscathed, and your narrative remain intact?

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  84. Whoops – forgot my links (there are many others if you don’t believe these — not that bald denial of medical facts bodes well for your future education in the nature of the fetus…

    Brain waves – SIX weeks, not eight

    Heartbeat — fourth week or early fifth

    no one you know (72db9b)

  85. W

    > Educate yourself about the victims you are producing

    are you under the impression that banning abortion causes rape?

    Aaron Worthing (f97997)

  86. When people, including physicians, talk about “brain waves” and “brain activity” they are referring to organized activity in the cortex. While no embryo or fetus has ever been found to have “brain waves,” extensive EEG studies have been done on premature babies. A very good summary of their findings can be found in Pain and its effects in the human neonate and fetus,” a review article (often cited by “pro-lifers” writing about fetal pain, but not about brain development) by K.J.S. Anand, a leading researcher on pain in newborns, and P.R. Hickey, published in NEJM:

    Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns…First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks.
    There are reasons, based on the physics of the EEG, why this has to be so. Remember, an EEG involves measuring varying electrical potential across a dipole, or separated charges. To get scalp or surface potentials from the cortex requires three things: neurons, dendrites, and axons, with synapses between them. Since these requirements are not present in the human cortex before 20-24 weeks of gestation, it is not possible to record “brain waves” prior to 20-24 weeks. Period. End of story.

    W (9df40f)

  87. Educate yourself about the victims you are producing.

    Effects of Rape
    Victims are 3 times more likely to suffer from depression.
    6 times more likely to suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder.
    13 times more likely to abuse alcohol.
    26 times more likely to abuse drugs.
    4 times more likely to contemplate suicide.

    Educate yourself about the victims you are producing.

    Effects of Abortion: Death. Always and forever.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  88. Pregnancies Resulting from Rape
    In 2004-2005, 3,204 pregnancies occured a result of rape.

    This is an interesting statistic. My understanding is that most of the babies produced were not aborted.

    Regardless, you’re proving me right. You said it was unreasonable to base an argument on rare procedure photos. Why is that, if you’re admitting you’re making an argument based on a rare issue, too?

    Aaron’s got a point that you’re citing all these consequences of rape as though they are somehow the fault of pro-lifers. That’s pretty disgusting. Blame the rapists. I know who to vote for in order to keep them off the streets, btw.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  89. Brain waves – SIX weeks, not eight

    Heartbeat — fourth week or early fifth

    From the same people who brought you intelligent design, and the push to put religion into law, education, and government.

    W (9df40f)

  90. Yes, in the mind of the nutjob…
    a zygote is more of a human and deserves more protection than a 12 yr old incest rape victim.

    That IS your position. Be intellectually honest. Own it.

    Comment by W — 10/27/2010 @ 7:32 pm

    You’re apparently not aware that women who are victims of rape and have had abortions (sorry, I don’t have data on incest victims specifically, but that’s certainly rape as well) have been studied.

    At first the women all feel relief right after the abortion. But starting several months later, and continuing later out to years, they almost all report feeling worse about the abortion than about the rape. Asked why, the typical reply is: “The rape wasn’t at all my fault. I participated in the abortion decision.”

    In the mind of a “pro-choicer”….
    A criminal who commits rape or incest is more of a human and deserves more protection than a completely helpless and innocent unborn child. And and the emotional (and yes sometimes physical ) damage to an older girl who is the victim of incest, is not as important as preserving the “right” of the 99% of abortion seekers to get their own child killed. Many of whom don’t even want the abortion, but feel forced into it by unsupportive family members or boyfriends.

    no one you know (72db9b)

  91. “No woman wants an abortion as she wants an ice cream cone or a Porsche. She wants an abortion as an animal caught in a trap wants to gnaw off its own leg.” –Prolife feminist Frederica Mathewes-Greene

    And…as the regulars know that I usually say when commenting on pro-life threads, if someone reading this is suffering, or knows someone suffering after an abortion, there is help for you. Free and confidential.

    http://www.abortionchangesyou.com

    http://www.hopeafterabortion.com

    no one you know (72db9b)

  92. Wow, noyk. You argued that a lot better than I did, and I appreciate it.

    “The rape wasn’t at all my fault. I participated in the abortion decision.”

    That’s gut wrenching partly because it’s understandable.

    “A criminal who commits rape or incest is more of a human and deserves more protection than a completely helpless and innocent unborn child. ”

    And there’s a great retort to W’s screaming for us to ‘own it’ when we’d ‘punish’ the rape victim with her baby being born. I don’t think the baby is the horrible facet of a rape, and I’m not sure why W does.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  93. From the same people who brought you intelligent design, and the push to put religion into law, education, and government.

    Comment by W — 10/27/2010 @ 8:04 pm

    Refusal to admit simple medical fact is making you look rather stupid, I must say.

    Or perhaps I’m being unfair.

    What terminology should we use so that you can be comfortable with the butchery, your conscience unscathed, and your narrative remain intact?
    Comment by Dana — 10/27/2010 @ 7:55 pm

    This is probably closer to the truth and explains the la-la-la-don’t-confuse-me-with-the-facts denial.

    no one you know (72db9b)

  94. “No woman wants an abortion as she wants an ice cream cone or a Porsche. She wants an abortion as an animal caught in a trap wants to gnaw off its own leg.” –Prolife feminist Frederica Mathewes-Greene

    But a man like W wants needs that woman to always have the abortion option lest his life be complicated by an inconvenient pregnancy. A perceived solution to unwanted conception that only causes unbearable grief. To the woman.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  95. I don’t think the baby is the horrible facet of a rape, and I’m not sure why W does.

    Comment by Dustin — 10/27/2010 @ 8:08 pm

    Well said. Abortion is extremely damaging to women, especially emotionally and sometimes physically. But that doesn’t fit “the narrative” as Dana put so well. So the facts be damned. “Those rotten religious nuts; they hate women, even the women hate themselves!”

    It’d be laughable if human lives weren’t hanging in the balance.

    no one you know (72db9b)

  96. Why are you folks arguing with this “W” character? Number one, I actually am a scientist, and have training in neurobiology, and he is clearly just a committed cut and paster with delusions of intelligence.

    But that’s not the point. The point is the continuing nastiness, name-calling, and crudeness. If “W” did have scientific training, and then also threw around insulting phrases and comments the way he did, well, what a waste of a fine education. Better a “teabagger” than a supposedly open minded liberal with such an angry and venomous outlook (to borrow from Huxley).

    He wants people to argue with him. But he knows what motivates him, and it isn’t truth, nor even partisanship. He is far baser and less evolved than that.

    I appreciate Patterico’s attitudes about letting all people post, but this guy is a bitter and angry troll, trying to fill an empty void in himself by playing faux-tough guy games.

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  97. “Well said. Abortion is extremely damaging to women, especially emotionally and sometimes physically.”

    And that’s why the dudes on the supreme court have to protect women from themselves.

    imdw (a863d5)

  98. When people, including physicians, talk about “brain waves” and “brain activity” they are referring to organized activity in the cortex.

    Not correct. The thalamus (lower brain — reflexes, sensations like hot and cold, pain) is developed enough for the embryo or fetus (eight o twelve weeks, depending on which study you look at) to not only have brain waves already but feel pain.

    However, the cortex (higher brain) is not fully enough developed for the understanding “I am in pain” until nearly a year after birth.

    So, nice try at evading the facts , but we’re talking apples and oranges here. (Lower) brain waves are present by six weeks.

    no one you know (72db9b)

  99. Why are you folks arguing with this “W”

    Some threads, the trolls come in to distract people from a topic they don’t want discussed.

    And then there’s this thread, where reasonable responses to trolls goad them into distracting themselves from a topic they do want to discuss.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  100. Eric Blair,

    Good to see you. You’ve been missed.

    While I understand your point re W wanting people to argue with him or even to listen to the melodious sound of his own pontifications, for me it is a good exercise in dissecting a person’s “arguments” with facts, evidence and logic while simultaneously overcoming the emotional urge to tell him to F*** off. He poses no threat or challenge per se, but the subject at hand is one of the utmost importance and makes the practice and discipline of sound argument – and truth – that important.

    Remember, too, and I can only speak for myself, I have absolutely no emotional investment in this undertaking. so there is no price to pay.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  101. W – Do you not why the pro-abortion crowd does not use aborted babies in their commercials?

    They can’t find the right aborted baby to say “My mother aborted me and I’m glad” in front of the camera.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  102. “KY is the perfect place to have incest rapists rights to procreate with their daughters protected.”

    W – Perfect. Soft on crime liberals want to understand criminal behavior. Conservatives want to lock rapists up. Just look at Hollywood’s support for Roman Polanski.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  103. And that’s why the dudes on the supreme court have to protect women from themselves.

    Comment by imdw — 10/27/2010 @ 8:39 pm

    Sexist.

    And that’s why the dudes on the supreme court have to protect women unborn children from themselvesthose who either know they’re alive and human and want to kill them, or those who’ve been lied to by the likes of Planned Parenthood — or W above — and think they’re asking for the removal of an undifferentiated mass of tissue.

    Comment by imdw — 10/27/2010 @ 8:39 pm

    FTFY

    no one you know (72db9b)

  104. “The “pro-life” community in Amerca is 99.9% comprised of religious Christians.”

    W – As usual, you have not cited a source, but over 75% of the country identifies as Christian. Deal with it.

    Are you always this scared of things you don’t understand? Were you abused as a child?

    daleyrocks (940075)

  105. And that’s why the dudes on the supreme court have to protect women from themselves.

    Comment by imdw — 10/27/2010 @ 8:39 pm

    Gosh, do the dudettes on the Supreme Court know about this?

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  106. NOYK, Dana, and Dustin: I appreciate your points, and am always happy to see your posts. There is a difference between people who genuinely have political and philosophical differences, and those who are just posting to snipe and insult. The latter posters depress me; you all rise above the nonsense and post your points of view.

    In that sense, the trolls serve an important purpose: they make their own points of view look bad, and yours look better…based on how they act and post.

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  107. Eric Blair,

    Good to see you. You’ve been missed.

    While I understand your point re W wanting people to argue with him or even to listen to the melodious sound of his own pontifications, for me it is a good exercise in dissecting a person’s “arguments” with facts, evidence and logic while simultaneously overcoming the emotional urge to tell him to F*** off. He poses no threat or challenge per se, but the subject at hand is one of the utmost importance and makes the practice and discipline of sound argument – and truth – that important.

    Remember, too, and I can only speak for myself, I have absolutely no emotional investment in this undertaking. so there is no price to pay.

    Comment by Dana — 10/27/2010 @ 8:44 pm

    Very well said, Dana (and Eric, have missed seeing you around too — hope to see you around more now). In fact, Dana, you said it so well I only would add — I **do** have an emotional investment in this discussion. My first exposure to abortion was not in how it affects the unborn, but how it affects women. In my first yr of college, my best friend’s S.O. pressured her into two abortions and she became suicidal. Pretty shocking for an 18 yr old to watch. (She lived, thank God)

    It was only later I learned about what the fetus is and exactly what abortion does. But I opposed abortion first because I saw what it did to my friend. Later experience only confirmed she was far from being alone in the damage it did to her.

    no one you know (72db9b)

  108. Say, daley, what is the Muslim position on abortion?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_abortion

    I always find it interesting to see trollish types insult the heck out of Christians but then get strangely shy about devout Muslims.

    Gosh, I wonder why?

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  109. s/b *had previously* pressured her

    no one you know (72db9b)

  110. Astonishing how W demonstrates his bigotry as if he was proud of it.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  111. Seems to me, SPQR, it is cowardly bigotry, as well. Since he seems most concerned about those nasty Christians…while ignoring other faiths that also have the opinion that abortion is a bad thing.

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  112. Well, exactly, Eric Blair, islam is just sooooooo pro-choice.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  113. “I always find it interesting to see trollish types insult the heck out of Christians but then get strangely shy about devout Muslims.”

    Eric Blair – nishi usually refuses to answer when I ask her about the Muslim position on abortion. Strange for such an opinionated two-digit faux-muslim troll.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  114. Good point, Eric. It’s strange to lump all pro-lifers in as ‘religious Christians’.

    But then, the whole line of incest rape was an attack on Kentucky. W is concentrated hate, and you are right that we’re unlikely to reach him through reason.

    But I enjoyed noyk and Dana’s contributions. Our arguments are pretty similar, but they are coming at this from a different direction than I am.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  115. SPQR, I am sure that the fake Sufi will show up to explain that it surely is….

    I have never understood this Western self-hatred coupled with glorification of other nations. We get put under a microscope;other nations are peered at through Mr. Magoo glasses.

    A “Daddy hatred” thing, maybe?

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  116. Btw, wow, this is a heated thread. Cool.

    Aaron Worthing (f97997)

  117. other nations are peered at through Mr. Magoo glasses.

    I’m so stealing that, Eric. LOL

    no one you know (72db9b)

  118. NOYK, I work in academia: I live in that kind of environment. I literally had to sit and listen to our premed advisor explain to a group of premed students that health care was better in Cuba than in the US, and that infant mortality rates were lower in Cuba.

    That latter bit is numerically true, but for an interesting reason.

    But yes, spread the Magoo image widely. Because that is how our “intellectuals” see the world: differentially.

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  119. Dustin – I think W just hates women, especially those who can stand up for themselves, like conservative women. He cloaks his hatred by aligning himself with progressive causes, but really wants state control of everyone’s life. Just look at the ignorance of his talking points and the bigotry of his views. The man is by no means a mental giant.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  120. In fact, Dana, you said it so well I only would add — I **do** have an emotional investment in this discussion.

    I understand, NOYK. I have my own personal emotions regarding this issue that I keep private, and while I realize they might drive the argument, they must not control it. Perhaps I should have worded it, I have no emotional investment in W or those of his ilk other than a springboard for exercising well thought out responses and careful deliberation. IOW, thinking before speaking.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  121. “Sexist.”

    Oh you didn’t notice the makeup of the panel on the Carhart Opinion?

    “And that’s why the dudes on the supreme court have to protect unborn children from those who ”

    It appears that you’re not familiar with it.

    “While we find no reliable data to measure the phenomenon, it seems unexceptionable to conclude some women come to regret their choice to abort the infant life they once created and sustained.”

    Here you see the court seeing the state interest as not just in the life of the fetus, but in protecting women from their own choices.

    “Gosh, do the dudettes on the Supreme Court know about this?”

    The one on the court at the time wrote a dissent about it.

    imdw (842182)

  122. daley, I’m guessing W needs abortion like a lot of men. She takes care of the issue, he can still make the game on time. No fuss, no muss. For him.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  123. Wow. Willie the racist hill jack yelverton is going off the rails even more than normal. I bet he has to cover his computer monitor with Saran wrap to keep his spittle from shorting it out.

    JD (3daffb)

  124. while I realize they might drive the argument, they must not control it…

    IOW, thinking before speaking.

    Comment by Dana — 10/27/2010 @ 9:19 pm

    Yes, exactly — your posts on this were a good reminder. I try to remember this but need to get better at it, esp when the issue is a hotly “discussed” one.

    no one you know (72db9b)

  125. “The one on the court at the time wrote a dissent about it.”

    imdw – Which decision was the one Kagan tricked everybody about the evidence on?

    daleyrocks (940075)

  126. Does anyone have better sourcing for that brain wave thing than a web site that’s just a reworking of Wikipedia? What I’m specifically looking for is a reliable source for the proposition that if an almost-dead person were to display as much brain activity as a 6-week embryo does, anybody who started harvesting her organs would be charged with murder. Is this true, or not? If not, at what stage of gestation does this become true?

    Milhouse (1448a4)

  127. Wow. Willie the racist hill jack yelverton is going off the rails even more than normal. I bet he has to cover his computer monitor with Saran wrap to keep his spittle from shorting it out.

    Comment by JD

    I know I engage in this kind of analysis too much, but my guess is W wants to be bashed, and it makes him angry that we’re so unfazed as to actually respond intelligently to him. That’s why he’s more angry than his normal.

    And I’m still saying this is imdw via a different proxy service. Few people leap to children and sex as quickly as imdw.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  128. Nope, Dustin. “w” is William yelverton, professor of plagiarism at MTSU, and aficionado of gumming the nut sack.

    JD (3daffb)

  129. Can’t they look past their Christian fetus fetish long enough to care about what overturning Roe v. Wade would do to American society? America would become the largest nation in the world where abortion was not universally safe and legal. These Christian fetus fetishists ignore and refuse to promote sex ed and contraceptives that would reduce abortion. Instead they promote ‘abstinence ed’ which has not only been proven a failure, but has been shown to promote anal and oral sex. The fetus fetishists refuse to acknowledge studies that show that instances of abortion declined the most where abortion was safe and legal. They also ignore studies that show outlawing abortion does not prevent it or lessen it’s instance. Abortion rates are similar in countries where it is legal and those where it is not, suggesting that outlawing the procedure does little to deter women seeking it. But, because of their Christian fetus fetish, they consider it unimportant that studies showed that the result of outlawing abortion endangers women’s lives. The study indicated that about 20 million abortions that would be considered unsafe are performed each year and that 70,000 women die as a result of complications from those abortions, most in countries where abortion is illegal. Pro-life my ass. Pro-life is anti-women. Pro-life is an irrational contradiction, born most often out of religious conviction.

    By all polls ever taken, America supports abortion rights and Roe v. Wade. Have you noticed? The vast majority of anti abortion rights commenters here are Christian conservative parents. You’ll find a much broader demographic on the pro choice side. These are the American Taliban, those that want to force their religious views on society. They are not just happy upholding their own moral compass, they want to force it on all others.

    No, a fetus is not a person. Human life, yes, but not a human being, not a person. Big difference. It is a developing person. The science that determines human life from a legal perspective is that of brain waves, the standard by which we can remove a person that is ‘brain dead’ from life support.

    Like ‘global warming deniers’ … much anti-abortion psuedo science has spouted fallacies like “At only 40 days after fertilization electrical waves as measured by the EEG can be recorded from the baby’s brain” as proof of life. Yes, it is proof of life but it is not a human being because it’s brain is not fully formed.

    W (9df40f)

  130. Does anyone have better sourcing for that brain wave thing than a web site that’s just a reworking of Wikipedia? What I’m specifically looking for is a reliable source for the proposition that if an almost-dead person were to display as much brain activity as a 6-week embryo does, anybody who started harvesting her organs would be charged with murder. Is this true, or not? If not, at what stage of gestation does this become true?

    Comment by Milhouse — 10/27/2010 @ 9:34 pm

    Don’t know if this is exactly what you’re looking for but here are a few more (non wiki type) links:

    Brain health site discussing brain development in embryo

    Time magazine article on fetal development on 1997

    Time magazine article fetal development – 2002

    M.D. essay on embryonic brain devpt

    And in case you’re interested, an article linking a discussion of brain death with abortion.
    http://www.suite101.com/content/brain-death-and-abortion-a124960

    Money quote:

    If life ends with the end of brain function, then maybe life begins with the beginning of brain function. Some authors put brain-life as early as 25 days after conception (Jones, D.G., “The problematic symmetry between brain birth and brain death.” J Med Ethics. 1998 August: 24(4): 237-242.)

    no one you know (72db9b)

  131. Go serenade you cat, yelverton. Your ignorance and hate is not at all appealing.

    JD (3daffb)

  132. It is clearly a potato chip at that point, yelverton.

    JD (3daffb)

  133. Yes, it is proof of life but it is not a human being because it’s brain is not fully formed.

    Comment by W — 10/27/2010 @ 10:02 pm

    The brain is not fully formed until well after birth.
    **remembers Dana’s advice**
    Hmmm…I feel pretty sure you don’t mean to sound like you’re justifying infanticide as well. Please do try again.

    no one you know (72db9b)

  134. Noyk – this one is so far beyond rational thought. It is a hate filled guitar player wannabe academic and all-around hater.

    JD (3daffb)

  135. Have to admit I like the “guitar player” touch. LOL

    no one you know (72db9b)

  136. it is not a touch, it is true. I kid you not.

    JD (3daffb)

  137. You’re a twisted bunch … the culture of life whose former President sent more inmates to death than any other governor, tortured and killed over 100,000 Iraqis. Such a pathetic ignorant and hypocritical culture you have there.

    Infanticide? Like comparing an acorn to a mighty oak…. but in the mind of a Gawd-fearing wingnut, anything goes. They have to be right because they have ‘Gawd on their side’…. as Sharron Angle, Christine O’Donnell, Palin and your other teaparty mental midgets say, it was ‘Gawd’s plan’ that they be successful in politics.

    W (9df40f)

  138. “tortured and killed over 100,000 Iraqis.”

    W – Just read the most recent Wikileaks file dump to see the error in that statement, moron.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  139. Ya need to get out some more “wanted posters” …. maybe you can get another Scott Roeder to shoot a doctor in the head. Won’t be too difficult, we know which side the gun nuts are on.

    CBS NEWS:

    Abortion Docs Decry “Wanted” Posters as Bait
    Providers in North Carolina Worry They are Being Marked for Murder by Operation Save America

    (CBS) They look like wanted posters from the Wild West. But they’re not photos of criminals, CBS News correspondent Michelle Miller reports — they depict doctors in North Carolina who perform abortions. They asked us to block their faces.

    “It doesn’t say ‘Wanted Dead or Alive’ but the implications are clearly there,” said a doctor, who, fearing for his life, asked to remain anonymous.

    “I am always looking over my shoulder,” the doctor said. “I know they know my car. They know my face. They’ve been to my house. They’ve put these posters in my neighborhood. So yeah, I look over my shoulder.”

    Those responsible for the fliers, Operation Save America, repeatedly protest abortions at women’s health clinics in the Charlotte area. Claiming the doctors “harm women and kill babies,” they list specific addresses and urge people to contact doctors there. One poster even cites a home address.

    “These ‘Wanted’ posters are a call for my murder,” a doctor said.

    In the 1990s similar fliers were distributed in other cities. Then came the murders. Pensacola, Fla., doctor David Gunn and Dr. George Patterson of Alabama were shot and killed in 1993. Dr. John Britton was murdered a year later in Florida. All were targets on Wanted posters.

    W (9df40f)

  140. “Infanticide?”

    W – Yes, what Obama supported for babies born alive after botched abortions and then lied about repeatedly, moron.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  141. Oh, come on, Professor Yelverton.

    First off, I love it when you try to talk about science. Remember when you tried your nasty insult fest toward me, and I took you to the woodshed for being a scientific ignoramus? The internet doesn’t forget, oh trollish one.

    Brain waves? Really? Then you move on to climate science, about which you know chords and fingerings, am I right? How much calculus have you taken in college? Any physics courses (calculus based)? Maybe you are like Al Gore, who took one science course and earned what grade in it?

    Please. You are embarrassing yourself, again.

    You really just are an alphabetist. And the death of you Hope and Change nonsense (you were played for a chump by your beloved DNC, pal) is making you tense. Maybe that drives your bile and anger and overall unpleasantness.

    But the best part? You are so disordered you don’t even realize when you write straight lines for other people to use against you. Like:

    “…The brain is not fully formed until well after birth…”

    Indeed. In some cases, even after decades.

    Seriously, dude. Go play with your picks and quit being a jerk. You aren’t even amusing.

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  142. W – Is there a website called “submoronic and bigoted progressive talking points” where people like you gather? You can’t be this stupid without working on it or without outside help.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  143. Excuse me…. it wasn’t 100,000 Bush killed?

    http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

    I guess it was 98,585. OK culture of life … lol

    Look up the movie that won the Oscar for best documentary in 2007. More culture of life.

    W (9df40f)

  144. “Excuse me…. it wasn’t 100,000 Bush killed?”

    W – Bush wasn’t in combat. He did not kill any.

    How many did Americans kill? Read the details, moron.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  145. Sorry, I was just quoting from the New England Journal of Medicine, not some wingnut pro life Jesus site.. sorry to have embarrassed myself with such a reference. Obviously too “elite” to be true

    W (9df40f)

  146. W

    You are more concerned about the deaths of murderers than innocent babies?

    and we are the sick ones?

    Mmm, yeah.

    Aaron Worthing (f97997)

  147. Hard to believe all that bile and anger can actually make music:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ehW3SHWquo

    How about more of that, and less of your nastiness?

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  148. “Yes, it is proof of life but it is not a human being because it’s brain is not fully formed.

    Comment by W — 10/27/2010 @ 10:02 pm”

    noyk – I think W’s comments are proof of the brain not being fully functional, but injury or substance abuse can also impact brain function.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  149. Bush didn’t kill most of those people, moron. The only people US forces (and therefore Bush) deliberately killed were the 25K or so hostiles, who needed killing. There were also an unknown number of innocent bystanders unavoidably killed in the process of killing the enemy; that’s part of war, and always has been. But the vast majority of that 100K body count were killed by the bad guys, the ones we killed. How is that on Bush?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  150. NEJM, Lancet, and Science have all sacrificed the credibility they once had, by accepting blatantly political articles masquerading as science. The Iraq purported body count was just one item in a long chain. The decline goes back 2 decades or so, to the ridiculous anti-gun “study” that purported to compare crime rates in Seattle and Vancouver, without adjusting for demographics.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  151. Can someone who knows this stuff please answer my question in #126? I tried googling the answer, but all the hits it comes up with seem to be either partisan pro-life sites, or ripoffs of Wikipedia. Does anyone have a truly reliable source for the claim that brain activity at 6 weeks is detectable? Does anyone know whether such activity, if it were to be detected in the brain of an almost-dead person, would be enough to make harvesting their organs legally murder? If that isn’t the case at six weeks, then does anyone know at what stage it becomes the case?

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  152. WTF do wingnuts always have to minimize the deaths in Iraq caused by the Bush (Mr. Culture of Life) policy? Do you feel better about the fact that Bush’s war killed more Iraqis per year than Saddam did if it were a few thousand less? Or that the years best documentary film in 2007 detailed the Bush/Cheney torture policy that resulted in a brutal murder (one of countless number)… and you sit there and call a fetus/zygote/blatula … “a baby”?

    Only religion can bring about that level of disconnect in human thought. Same type of mindeset that leads people to believe the world in 10,000 yrs old and we were created in the garden. WTF is wrong with people? A lack of education, critical thinking, or simple indoctrination from an early age? One or all of the above I suspect. Pathetic.

    W (9df40f)

  153. Your music is nice, Professor Yelverton. Yet you seem so…angry. And do me a favor, please.

    On campus, tomorrow, stand up for free speech and say how much you think that Muslims are stupid. After all, review the Muslim position on abortion. So speak out, just as you have here. Please. Tenured or not, what do you think would happen?

    Of course, the funny part is that you could say all of what you have, on campus, about Christians. And even at Middle Tennessee State University (so you are one of Katie Couric’s “great unwashed”?), you would be fine.

    On the other hand, you might just be super tough on line, and not so much on campus. Wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest.

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  154. This site won’t let me post links – paste in browser for info on brain waves … FYI

    eileen.250x.com/Main/Einstein/Brain_Waves.htm

    W (9df40f)

  155. Many Islamic thinkers contend that in cases prior to four months of gestation, abortion should be permissible only in instances in which a mother’s life is in danger or in cases of rape.

    heh…. Muslims not as conservative or subjugating compared to the American fundamentalist extremists

    W (9df40f)

  156. Hey, I heard somewhere that American scientists are creating mice with fully functional human brains.

    I also heard that it’s a mortal sin when I jerk off, and I need to confess to adultery.

    I also heard incest rape is not such a bad thing, someone once said it like a lemon but uyou can make lemonade from it …. wow …. cool!!!

    W (9df40f)

  157. Hey, Professor Yelverton? I think you should ask a few imams about that.

    What you are saying is interesting. You are lumping all Christians into one group, but insisting that there are many groups of Muslims with differing beliefs.

    Interesting. And quite hypocritical. Though, of course, you are not serious and are an angry insomniacal troll.

    But they are deeply religious, all of them. Again, put your money where your mouth is: time for a public declaration, in front of your administration building, that Muslims are stupid because they are religious. After all, you have no trouble saying that about Christians.

    If not, why not? Fear or hypocrisy?

    But you are just a troll. Why waste time being so nasty, when you can play music? Seriously.

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  158. “…Muslims not as conservative or subjugating compared to the American fundamentalist extremists…”

    That’s my favorite troll-comment of the evening. As I say: cowardly, hypocritical, or not intelligent.

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  159. lumping all Christians into one group? No, I’m merely stating the GOP party platform on abortion, which only a few teaparty candidates support, and not many mainstream GOP politicians. McCain didn’t, Romney doesn’t. Palin, Buck, Miller, O’Donnell , and Angle and Rand Paul, are the first policitians of note to deny womens reproductive choice in all cases. No exceptions.

    W (9df40f)

  160. It’s true, mainstream Muslims aren’t even as radical as these teabaggers are, that includes you apparently.

    W (9df40f)

  161. How is it hypocritical to quote Muslim beliefs on abortion? Your words have zero meaning. Isn’t your google working, can you search for “Islam and abortion”?

    W (9df40f)

  162. BTW … if Muslims were in a position to force their religion into my law, government and educational institutions I’d be speaking out against them. They are 1% of the American population but Islamophobes need someone to hate so they go after a tiny segment of society. Talk about irrational fear. I saw 400 teabaggers – all white christians march down my street to protest a local Islamic center. The same religious zealots that cost our couty $50,000 in a settlement when they pushed the Old Testament Law – the 10 Commandments into our court house.

    Are you a real patriot? Or just fearful people who feel threatened from a 1% minority religion? So much so, they want to violate the US Constitutional protections for freedom of religion. Now that’s pretty fearful… and pathetic.

    If so, you don’t deserve the liberty our founders guaranteed.

    Ben Franklin said: “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    W (9df40f)

  163. People are always quoting that, but never stop to think how you tell whether the liberty being given up is essential or trivial, or how much safety is to be obtained in return.

    Milhouse (1448a4)

  164. I don’t know, Professor Yelverton, if anyone has noticed…but you continue to spew your bile and anger. What an angry little man, musical or not.

    But you still haven’t pledged to speak out against Muslim religious extremism on campus tomorrow. I mean, if they are a 1% minority religion, and you are so quick to accuse others of irrational fear, why, you have nothing to fear yourself. Right?

    Except from your administration.

    You are just a silly little troll.

    As for Islam, well, I think you need to use more than Google.

    I also think you are just drinking and typing. You just want to find people to insult and fight. Sad little man.

    JD had you pegged.

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  165. ABC News:

    Kentucky cops are considering charges against at least two more Rand Paul supporters caught on tape wrestling a political heckler to the ground while another man stomped on her head.

    “At this point, the investigation is still ongoing,” Lexington Police spokeswoman Sherelle Roberts told ABC News. “We’re looking into other individuals who may have been involved in the assault and could get charged.”

    W (9df40f)

  166. For the record, I despise all religious extremism. The most dangerous form of which is now in an extremely threatening position to America. Some of my loved ones are Christians and sorry, but despite what you may think, the GOP doesn’t own Jesus. I keep company with people who are both religious and highly educated and intelligent. Everyone of my colleagues has a Doctorate, my girlfriend is an attorney and her father, a physician and Dean of a Medical School. None of them could identify with the extremist positions of this theocratic teabagger group – fully supported here on this blog by Eric Blair, JD, Milhoiuse, Aaron Worthing and a host of others. They call us elites, they hate education, they simply are intellectual wannabes spouting pseudo-science, religious imperatives, nd childish insults about goats and the like….

    W (9df40f)

  167. The ironic part is that I could post bit after bit about Muslim extremism—genital mutilation, honor killings, lack of voting rights, and so on—throughout the Muslim world, and even listing incidents in Europe and here in North America…

    And all people like this would do is insist that it wasn’t a full picture of a group. That my doing so was narrow minded and xenophobic.

    But you will notice it is perfectly okay for angry odd trolls to do exactly that to groups they do not agree with.

    Projection, thy true name is progressive.

    Angry guitarist, isn’t it time for you to get some sleep? Maybe you will feel better in the AM.

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  168. Oh, and regarding 164? Since you oppose lumping people into groups…why do you do it so avidly, with such anger and rancor?

    And no, you do not despise all religious extremism. Or you would indeed speak out about Muslim extremism on campus, tomorrow.

    But you lack the courage of your supposed convictions.

    Just a cowardly little troll.

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  169. Eric Blair is a teabagger.

    Eric Blair supports these positions:

    1) Eliminate Federal funding for colleges and Universities – Dick Armey

    2) Outsource American jobs oversees and prevent the Democrats from bringing jobs back to America by using foreign funding to attack their candidates. (GOP defeats Dem bill to prevent outsourcing)

    3) Government should not prevent private businesses from discriminating on the basis of race. – Rand Paul

    4) Gays and single sexually active women should not be legally allowed to teach. – Jim DeMint

    5) Victims of incest rape should be forced by the federal government to bear their rapists child. – Angel, Palin, Paul, O’Donnell

    6) Evolution is a myth, intelligent design needs to be taught in schools. – Christine O’Donnell, Michele Bachmann, Palin

    7) Eliminate the minimum wage. – Joe Miller, Michele Bachman

    8) Raise the social security retirement age. – Rand Paul

    9) Impose a $2000 Medicare deductible. – Rand Paul

    10) “Second Amendment remedies” are needed against government – Sharron Angle

    11) The separation of church and state is invalid – Ken Buck, Angle, O’Donnell

    12) Abolish public schools and the Dept. of Education – David Harmer, Rand Paul

    W (9df40f)

  170. Oh, and this both ironic and amusing:

    “…they simply are intellectual wannabes spouting pseudo-science, religious imperatives…”

    Cura te ipsum, sir. But I do like the capitalization of “Doctorate.”

    Yes, someone is an intellectual wannabe, doesn’t have a firm grasp on science, and seems to have issues regarding religion: you.

    You did know that several of us posting here have that degree, right? Of course, you would leap in, a higher degree doesn’t mean someone is smart. Absolutely.

    But I remember the time you presumed that I didn’t “believe” in evolution, and I skooled you throughly on the fact you understood utterly nothing about the modern synthesis/Darwinian thought. You were just a political bomb thrower who wanted to insult people and in fact knew nothing regarding the topic about which you were trying to be snobbish.

    Poseur. Go sleep it off.

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  171. New Video Reveals MoveOn Activist’s Aggressive Provocation

    While the video seems to negate the “tea party thug” narrative liberals like MSNBC’s Ed Schultz are claiming, it suggests the Paul supporters’ actions were re-actionary, not blunt unprovoked violence. Nothing justifies the ensuing behavior which threatened to harm Valle, but Valle‘s innocent victim claim doesn’t seem so innocent anymore.

    Seems like she’s not as innocent as she pretends.

    Tanny O'Haley (12193c)

  172. Gosh, Professor Yelverton. Why do you suppose people insult you?

    And again, thank you for warning me not to lump people into groups, by lumping me into groups. There is a word in the dictionary, near “hypotenuse,” that I recommend you review.

    I proved you to be a fool before, and here you are, doing it again, all on your own.

    It’s pretty late where you are in Tennessee. Get some sleep. Or better still, practice your music. Isn’t it better, seriously, than being such a bitter and nasty person?

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  173. Eric Blair

    NOYK, I work in academia: I live in that kind of environment. I literally had to sit and listen to our premed advisor explain to a group of premed students that health care was better in Cuba than in the US, and that infant mortality rates were lower in Cuba.

    That latter bit is numerically true, but for an interesting reason.

    Is it because:

    The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless. And some countries don’t reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates. For this very reason, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which collects the European numbers, warns of head-to-head comparisons by country.

    Behind the Baby Count

    If that’s not correct, I’m interested to know.

    Tanny O'Haley (12193c)

  174. For the record,

    Only record you’ve left is one of your great stamina with extreme nastiness, W.

    You tried to have a debate, and you lost. You may tell yourself you’re successfully trolling, now that you’re just spewing lies about others’ positions and generally spamming the thread, but in reality, that’s just a fallback because you lost the argument.

    I only wish the whole country could be exposed to your idea of reasoning and tolerance. Bear in mind that your Joy Behar style of debate is driving so many people to the polls. You’re helping me so much right now.

    Thanks.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  175. Looks like I’m late to the party again. Oh well. Gotta love faux-intellectuals who talk about all those PhD types they roll with as if that actually means something. And yet they get trounced on scientific knowledge.

    And making that claim about all those dead Iraqis and how we’re oh so terrible over there… I’d almost bet he’s never even deigned to speak with a soldier who has, you know, actually been there. My daughter spent 15 months in a prison in Iraq–as a prison guard. And some prisoners personally thanked her for the US being there. Rules of conduct prevented almost everything, and she returned from Iraq shortly after Obama was inaugurated, so her duty time was mostly under a Bush C-in-C.

    Beyond that, Yelverton really should read “Love My Rifle More Than You” written by a liberal woman who was a SGT and a translator and spent time deployed in Iraq. Except it would open the educated idiot’s eyes. (He is educated, right?) But he’d rather believe the conspiracy theorists than actual facts.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  176. ToH: exactly so. And the sad part is that saying so undermines The Narrative: we are bad, other countries are good.

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  177. And nobody who uses that “teabagger” shtick is actually interested in an intellectually honest discussion, to begin with. It’s inflammatory and intolerant and hypocritical from the get-go.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  178. Odd how he so easily becomes the flack for Baathists
    and Salafi, well not really, he’s for whom the word
    ‘useful idiot’ was coined, fellow traveller would imply too much self awareness

    ian cormac (6709ab)

  179. Can someone who knows this stuff please answer my question in #126? I tried googling the answer, but all the hits it comes up with seem to be either partisan pro-life sites, or ripoffs of Wikipedia. Does anyone have a truly reliable source for the claim that brain activity at 6 weeks is detectable? Does anyone know whether such activity, if it were to be detected in the brain of an almost-dead person, would be enough to make harvesting their organs legally murder? If that isn’t the case at six weeks, then does anyone know at what stage it becomes the case?

    Comment by Milhouse — 10/27/2010 @ 10:40 pm

    Milhouse,

    I did answer your question in #126 last night (with non-wiki links – to IIRC two med sources re embryos’ brain devpt and two Time magazine articles on fetal devpt – the Time one from 1997 is shorter and even more direct than the 2002 one about the very early brain waves), but the answer is apparently stuck in the filter because of all the links.

    Had also hunted down a “Brain Death and Abortion” medical link I thought you’d find interesting given your topic. It included a quote (which I put right in the comment) from the Journal of Medical Ethics which mentions some sources putting “brain life” as early as 25 days [I know from my other reading, though, that most medical sources put brain wave activity — if the two mean the same thing which I’m not sure of that] at 40-42 days, or six weeks.

    Took a bit of time to get it together so I just sent a request for rescue to Aaron’s “send tips here” email. When he gets it out, hope it’s helpful.

    no one you know (72db9b)

  180. Milhouse,

    Hmm, weird; now I’m seeing the 10:03 links. In case you can’t, here are the link addresses w/o links so it won’t get filtered:

    Time article 1997 (very clear about early brain waves)
    http://www.nku.edu/~johnston/timebrain.html

    Time article 2002
    http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101021111/#

    Brain health med site: prenatal brain devpt:
    http://www.dana.org/news/brainhealth/detail.aspx?id=10050

    MD article on embryonic brain devpt:
    http://www.newhorizons.org/neuro/scheibel.htm

    “Brain Death and Abortion” medical article with “25 days” quote from Journal of Medical Ethics:
    http://www.suite101.com/content/brain-death-and-abortion-a124960

    no one you know (72db9b)

  181. Great. It made the addresses into links. Heh.

    no one you know (72db9b)

  182. Hey, i see alot of you guys were posting links and that caused the various filters to keep from posting what you were saying.

    also please don’t engage in sock puppetry, although i understand in this case because i think you were trying to get around the filters, so i will give everyone a mulligan on that. If you have been using fake names for that purpose please switch back.

    There are alot of duplicate posts in the filter. i will try to get at least one representative of each point released, but obviously i am not going to release like 20 of the same link, that is pointless. if you feel i have left something in the filter that needs to come out, feel free to email me.

    i do check the filters now and then on my own, but emailing me might get it out faster.

    i wish i could make it stop filtering certain people, but if there is a way to do it, i don’t know how.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  183. btw, i won’t tell you how to spend your time, but look, W is Alan Grayson, only not as obviously dishonest.

    Anyone who calls their fellow Americans “taliban” based on such flimsy evidence is not really going to be reasoned with or believed by anyone outside the most far-left precincts.

    i mean take one example: abortion v. the death penalty. if he is not actually full of it, it betrays a remarkable intellectual incuriosity to say that there is hypocrisy there.

    I mean if you believe that a fetus is a person at any point before they are born, then by definition that is an innocent life. There is nothing at all hypocritical about believing it is wrong to take innocent life but it is justified to take the life of someone who takes the life of another. indeed, the later policy has the net effect of protecting innocent life, too. Which is not to say that it is automatically hypocritical to be pro-abortion and anti-death penalty. the death penalty is death by the state while abortion is carried out generally by private individuals (although Obamacare might increase governmental involvement). And of course the pro-choice side denies that the fetus is a person at all. So there is nothing hypocritical about that, either.

    Just the other day Obama told hispanics to “punish their enemies” at the voting booth. with all due respect, mr. president, it is generally incorrect to call any american citizen your enemy. We must infuse ourselves more completely with the ideal of the loyal opposition, that is the belief that as a rule of thumb those opposing your policies do so out of patriotism.

    We are not evil, W, we just disagree with you. And you if you are interested in actual discussion, it would help if you figured that out.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  184. I tend to believe JD that “W” is this Yelverton character, who apparently also posted under the name “pam.” Clearly an angry person.

    But one of the best examples of progressive projection I have seen in a while: continually deriding others for doing things he did himself. Amazing.

    Must be quite the unhappy person.

    And by the way, Professor Yelverton would get into horrible trouble for criticizing fundamentalist Muslims on campus…even if he was criticizing how women were treated in Saudi Arabia.

    But criticizing Christians? Not so much. That would be free speech.

    That is what amazes me about the folks who say that they abhor “fundamentalists”: it seems that some fundamentalists are more equal than others.

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  185. Eric

    well that is similar to my observation that the people most likely to call fellow americans “taliban” are also the same people most likely to want us to withdraw from afghanistan and stop fighting the actual taliban.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  186. Mr. Worthing, I really do believe it is a twisted form of “Daddy Hatred,” with the US standing in for their father.

    I see it often in students: 19 year olds desperate to sound independent and cool, yet depending on cash money from the parents. It’s frustrating to them. So they seem to feel that being jerks about their parents is somehow “cool and edgy.” Meanwhile, the students often worship some other adult. Once again, using very different standards.

    I mean, it is one thing to criticize religious bigotry wherever you feel it occurs. It is another thing entirely to pick and choose…and even defend the bigots in some cases.

    Oh, I don’t know. I’m probably ascribing too much thinking to trolls.

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  187. Eric

    well, maybe, but i have found another theory alot more persuasive.

    The idea is that they attack the american right as a proxy for al Qaeda, etc. They feel impotent in dealing with AQ, so they puff us up in their mind so we are equivalent, and attack us so they can feel less impotent.

    this is especially true in the new aggression by atheists. they think somehow if they can get christians to be atheists, that islam will naturally follow. which is not logical at all, but oh well.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  188. also, just call me Aaron.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  189. Thanks, NOYK. Unfortunately none of the articles you linked to explicitly give the six-week timing, or say exactly what it is that they’re claiming happens then, and what their source is. I’d love to get something specific on that, but it seems so elusive that I have to wonder whether there’s any there there. The hardest info I got from it was the Jones paper in the Journal of Medical Ethics, which waffles on as such papers usually do (how can you have a science which consists entirely of navel-gazing?) but does give some references that I’ve yet to look up but may prove worthwhile.

    Milhouse (ea66e3)

  190. Comment by Milhouse — 10/28/2010 @ 7:51 am

    Milhouse,

    You’re welcome and sorry the links weren’t more help.

    One more ref that may help: Williams’ Obstetrics is readily available everywhere and is (AFAIK) still pretty definitive in the medical community. It has a chapter on embryonic/fetal development which might cover the details of brain devpt (side note: interestingly it refers to the fetus specifically as the “second patient” of an obstetrician).

    Don’t want to do the link thing again but type “Obstetrics” in at Amazon and it’s the first result. Very likely you can get at least some recent edition at your local library.

    no one you know (325a59)

  191. Haven’t been following this thread (can’t do everything) but I’ll have to make time to read through to enjoy the insights of Eric, noyk, AW, etc,

    Just the other day Obama told hispanics to “punish their enemies” at the voting booth. with all due respect, mr. president, it is generally incorrect to call any american citizen your enemy. We must infuse ourselves more completely with the ideal of the loyal opposition, that is the belief that as a rule of thumb those opposing your policies do so out of patriotism. – Comment by Aaron Worthing

    Another example of “Except when I do it”. Accusing Bush of lieing is being patriotic, opposing views of Obama makes you an “enemy”. Sounds like Chicago thugocracy.

    It does call to mind the idea, however, that when someone declares war on you, you’re under attack, whether you want to admit it or not…. So…our(?) President has made it clear that he is at war with those who disagree with his policies?! So much for bipartisanship and uniting people- but then there was already ample evidence that those who unite under him are the only ones that count.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  192. William the lying midget hilljack racist skin flute player was really off it’s rocker last night. The kitteh must have cut him off.

    JD (3daffb)

  193. #175.

    Thanks TOH, (and EB at #178). I always wondered about some of those quoted statistics, but never took the time to look into it. An example of “lies, damned lies, and statistics”.

    I think we should develop a course, “BS-ology 101″- “Unravelling the Art of Intelligent-sounding Deception”, or some such

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  194. Willie is just another angry troll who lives in a liberal cocoon and has no idea how the real world functions.

    He doesn’t believe in capitalism and feels businesses exist merely to provide jobs rather than to produce goods and services people and other businesses want to purchase. To Willie it doesn’t matter if businesses make money or lose money, unless they make too much money and then their windfall profits, as defined by our liberal overlords, should be confiscated. If they lose too much money and they are the right kind of company, e.g. they employ union labor, they should be bailed out. They should not be bailed out if they are an oil company or are in the defense sector and they lose humongous amounts of money.

    Willie believes that the activities of businesses should be dictated from a central government run by elites that know more than you and I even though they have no relevant business experience. The elites should tell the businesses what products to manufacture, e.g. a lot of green products nobody wants to buy, what fringe benefits they must offer, where to build plants, how many people to employ and how much to pay them.

    Willie believes in an open borders immigration policy and thinks we should provide a full array of government benefits to illegal immigrants already in this country with dollars confiscated from other taxpayers such as you and me even though we have had no say in the matter. Part of this is due to his feeling that labor should be free to flow across borders to seek the highest wages, yet Willie cannot name a single other First World country which does not secure its borders or control its illegal immigration.

    In perhaps his most astounding display of face palm intellectual dishonesty, Willie’s position is that labor should be free to flow into the U.S., but it should never be free to move out by government fiat. Corporations should never be allowed to move operations overseas to improve profits, well, just because they shouldn’t care about making a profit and staying in business anyway because their function is to provide jobs to people in America. It’s great circular reasoning for twisted minds who have never been in the business world.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  195. Are you guys sure this is really that specific professor?

    Just because he used that moniker at some point doesn’t mean it’s him. You could really hurt someone’s reputation, if you were, say, a disgruntled student, by behaving like this.

    I’d email the guy and ask, but I’m afraid Anita Hill will contact the FBI.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  196. Political violence that cuts deep…

    Don’t let James Taranto stand behind you with a keyboard.
    From today’s BOTW:
    “…Occam’s razor suggests that Obama is a mere conformist–someone who absorbed every left-wing platitude he encountered in college and never seems to have seriously questioned any of them. Kloppenberg characterizes Obama as a skeptic, not a true believer. We’re not sure he has an active enough mind to be either one…

    That’s going to leave a mark!

    AD-RtR/OS! (7aca2e)

  197. Dustin, I know what you mean. I don’t know how JD knows, but it sure looks likely.

    And the sad thing, truly, is that WY is a good guitarist. So my advice—play music more, insult other people less—was well intended.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  198. I have been known to lose my cool, too Eric. Your advice is good. Getting mad isn’t much fun, and it’s not like these political problems will ever be finally resolved, so W is setting himself up for a miserable existence.

    noyk and Dana enjoyed an intellectual exercise, but W wasted an evening of his life.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  199. That sure is a ton of violent psychopathic rhetoric coming from a lute player.

    Dmac (ad2c6a)

  200. Dustin – no doubt whatsoever.

    JD (8d8f1f)

  201. Off to dinner with happyfeet and MayBee @ Animal in west LA 😉

    JD (8d8f1f)

  202. Enjoy your evening with feets and Maybee. Wish I was in the area.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  203. Dmac: it was too much aspartame.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  204. Some of my loved ones are Christians and sorry, but despite what you may think, the GOP doesn’t own Jesus.

    No one here has said or inferred that the GOP “owns Jesus”. Yet another stereotyping by the left. There seems to be little attempt to actually get to know individual R’s. But perhaps it’s easier to paint with the broad brush than risk finding out one has been very wrong about so much. The narrative is so important to maintain.

    I keep company with people who are both religious and highly educated and intelligent. Everyone of my colleagues has a Doctorate, my girlfriend is an attorney and her father, a physician and Dean of a Medical School. None of them could identify with the extremist positions of this theocratic teabagger group – fully supported here on this blog by Eric Blair, JD, Milhoiuse, Aaron Worthing and a host of others.

    It’s interesting you felt the need to give us the intellectual/academic qualifications of those you associate with. And it’s interesting to further note that you are apparently impressed with this and yet don’t seem to measure the quality of a person by generosity, kindness, honesty, prudence, or thoughtfulness.

    They call us elites, they hate education, they simply are intellectual wannabes spouting pseudo-science, religious imperatives, nd childish insults about goats and the like….

    You have evidenced yourself to be narrow minded, judgmental and condescending and valuing those who are highly educated and intellectuals – and yet you are surprised that the right considers you elitist. Seriously?

    Clearly you continue to paint with that misleading broad brush by assuming education is hated by the right and I wonder, do you ever consider that the many educated people have seen behind the curtain of higher ed and while not disdaining it, it takes it’s proper place – no longer an altar to worship at but rather a means to an end.

    I don’t know that anyone here is an intellectual wannabe – I think that the regulars here are far too busy actually living their lives, reading, learning and analyzing issues that matter to them to even remotely care about whether one is an intellectual or not. I would venture to guess that it isn’t even on the radar.

    And perhaps if the current, trendy measurement of being an intellectual is our president, I don’t think anyone here has anything to be too concerned with.

    Dana (8ba2fb)

  205. Dana, I sparred with Professor Yelverton in the past, when he decided that I did not understand evolutionary theory. It was interesting to have a musician sneer at me and try to insult me for my supposed ignorance about biology, since I do have a PhD in genetics.

    I’m not being elitist; I wish I could play music. I cannot.

    But projection is the norm, it seems. Professor Yelverton wrote, including me in the mix:

    “…they simply are intellectual wannabes spouting pseudo-science…”

    Yet he certainly buys into all kinds of issues with, for example, artificial sweeteners that are purely anti-scientific quackery. Don’t get me wrong; I don’t care what this individual eats or drinks. What is ironic is how he sneers about intellectualism and science while not knowing a blessed thing about the latter.

    I dealt with him before. He was skooled, and could only respond with insults and then slunk away.

    Just an angry little man. But the weird part, again, is that he is a good musician.

    More music, less anger. That would seem like the best course.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  206. EB, it sure don’t take intellect or wisdom to be a good musician. Just take, for example, The Rolling Stones. On the civility part, some called Sinead O’Connor a good musician.

    Just sayin. 😉

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  207. What was the title of that Laura Ingraham book, John?

    Eric Blair (f81d56)

  208. The Obama Diaries? Or a different book?

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  209. “Shut Up and Sing”.

    Are you suggesting a sequel, “Shut Up and Play”?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  210. “The Obama Diaries? Or a different book?”

    Her appearance on colbert related to this was epic.

    imdw (017d51)

  211. I also reject the notion that this rape/incest victim’s interests must be in conflict with the interests of her baby.

    But the rape victim might disagree.

    It’s an extreme example, cherry picked for effect, despite the fact that even today, most pregnant rape victims want their babies to be born. Even though the child came into being via a horrible act, there is the notion of good coming from evil.

    I wonder if it is because most rapes happen between people who know each other, sometimes even people in relationships. I can understand why a girl or woman impregnated by rape would not want to kill the invader if she knows the rapist beyond a face and a name.

    At first the women all feel relief right after the abortion. But starting several months later, and continuing later out to years, they almost all report feeling worse about the abortion than about the rape. Asked why, the typical reply is: “The rape wasn’t at all my fault. I participated in the abortion decision.”

    Soldiers often have feelings about killing people in combat.

    That does not mean it is always a bad idea to kill people in combat.

    In a way, killing unborn babies resulting from rape is like killing enemy invading soldiers in combat. The killings are justified in that they were done in defense of body/country.

    Of course, the emotional and psychological toll on the killers is not diminished.

    Michael Ejercito (249c90)

  212. More on abortion in cases of rape.

    To continue with the military analogy, the resulting pregnancy of a rape is more analagous to a soldier sent in by an invading government. A woman who has been raped has had her body invaded. Removing the resulting pregnancy is the same as killing a soldier in an invading army. He may be innocent, he may be a good person, but it is our right as human beings to defend ourselves against invasion. The same rationale applies to personal self-defense. If an intruder breaks into my house, I can rightfully shoot him to protect myself.

    The rapist makes the decision to invade, and he leaves an intruder – he leaves something in the woman’s body against her will. She removes it. This is her right. You can’t allow men to make women pregnant against their will and then refuse them the right to remove that pregnancy.

    Michael Ejercito (249c90)


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