Patterico's Pontifications

10/20/2010

Above Personal Responsibility?

Filed under: General — Aaron Worthing @ 6:15 am



[Guest post by Aaron Worthing.]

So Above the Law has been on a tear for the last few months to convince people not to go to law school.  Now I generally am sympathetic to at least a message of caution.  I think it is fair to say that the legal market is oversaturated and I certainly worry about their debt at the end of school.  But this Above the Law story is a bit much.  You see, an anonymous 3L (third year law student) at Boston College is asking for his money back.  He wrote a letter to the Dean explaining as follows in relevant part:

As a 3L, my peers and I find ourselves in the midst of one of the worst job markets in the history of our profession. A few of us have been able to find employment, but the overwhelming majority of us are desperately looking, and unable to find anything….

To compound our difficulties, many of us are in an enormous amount of debt from our legal studies. Soon after our graduation, we will be asked to make very large monthly payments towards this debt, regardless of whether we’ve been able to find employment or not. [Aaron: Proving he knows nothing of the law of garnishments.]  It is a debt which, despite being the size of a mortgage, gives us no tangible asset which we could try to sell or turn in to the bank. We are not even able to seek the protection of bankruptcy from this debt.

I write to you from a more desperate place than most: my wife is pregnant with our first child. She is due in April. With fatherhood impending, I go to bed every night terrified of the thought of trying to provide for my child AND paying off my J.D, and resentful at the thought that I was convinced to go to law school by empty promises of a fulfilling and remunerative career….

I’d like to propose a solution to this problem: I am willing to leave law school, without a degree, at the end of this semester. In return, I would like a full refund of the tuition I’ve paid over the last two and a half years.

This will benefit both of us: on the one hand, I will be free to return to the teaching career I left to come here. I’ll be able to provide for my family without the crushing weight of my law school loans. On the other hand, this will help BC Law go up in the rankings, since you will not have to report my unemployment at graduation to US News.

Let’s see here.  First, what school is he going to?  Oh, right, Boston College, the private law school that costs about $39K and is ranked at 27 according to U.S. News and World Report.  That’s his first mistake right there.  Assuming that this is the best law school he could be admitted to, why is he going there when there are so many more reasonable options among the state schools?  For instance, the University of Kansas costs $25K for even out-of-staters.  I mean, yes, it ranks at 67, but bluntly those ranks don’t mean as much as you might think.  In my practice, I certainly never think to myself anything like this: “Oh, I went to Yale and my opponent went to the University of Kansas, so this will be easy.”  That’s a recipe for getting whupped in court.  And that is assuming that he can’t get in-state tuition in a place like Georgia, which has a fine school (tied with several others at 28) around $15K a year.

His second mistake?  Well, I am loathe to call a baby a mistake, so let’s just call it a choice with consequences.  He chose to father a child in this economy and with that debt.  Would he have even been writing this letter if he hadn’t?  Hard to say.

And as for the claim that he was promised a “fulfilling and remunerative career,” color me skeptical.  I doubt the university promised him jack.  Indeed, the fact that he doesn’t identify who made these “promises” suggests to me it was not the university that promised him anything.

Now let’s switch over to Above the Law’s (ATL’s) argument, where they explain that “If you buy something, and it’s a piece of crap, you should be able to give it back and get your money back. Boston College sold him a promise, and Boston College cannot fulfill that promise; why can’t he get his money back?”  Now let me pause, there.  Again, the man didn’t even allege that BC made any promises to him, and more than likely, they didn’t, except that he would get a certain amount of instruction.  They go on:

A lot of people will argue that this kid didn’t purchase a J.D., he purchased an education and a way of thinking, and he cannot just “return” these things in exchange for his money back. You know who will say those things? Law professors, deans, and other theorists who have idealized the process of “thinking like a lawyer.”

But this kid (and thousands out there like him) did not go to law school to gain some intangible brain stimulation. They went to law school in order to get a job. That’s the whole point of a professional school.

First, notice the infantilization of this guy.  Most law students at this stage are at least twenty-four.  That is old enough to drive, drink, vote and fight for your country.  He was old enough to get married and even conceive a child with his wife.   But he’s still just a “kid” to ATL.

Also, it is is highly significant that he can’t give back the services he received and they do have value, even if you can’t sell it.  He has that knowledge and training no matter what.  For instance, later he could go to another law school and they would be very likely to allow him to skip the entire first year of curriculum based on that experience; they might literally give him full credit for all of his prior education.  And do you think that having almost a full legal education wouldn’t help him in his proposed career as a teacher?

And it is incorrect to say he is not going to school to learn to “think like a lawyer”–although I never liked that phrase.  Anyone who goes to law school just to check a box on their bar application is making a serious mistake.  The reason why these bar associations almost always require a person to have graduated law school is that they provide valuable training in how to be a lawyer.  I mean I don’t want to over-state that—there are many practical aspects of the profession you learn on the job.  But law school teaches you many of the fundamentals of the profession.  The point is, he didn’t just purchase a job when he paid for his tuition.  And indeed, you can’t purchase a job anyway.  Graduation from law school doesn’t guarantee even admission into the legal profession.  Many choose not to become lawyers, while others fail the bar exam.  So he didn’t purchase the certainty of becoming a rich and successful lawyer.  He purchased the only thing that Boston College could reasonably guarantee: the right to receive instruction at BC.  And that is what he got.

Indeed, this student proved that in fact he did value the education in and of itself by his own words.  Let’s remember the exact terms of the offer “I am willing to leave law school, without a degree, at the end of this semester. In return, I would like a full refund of the tuition I’ve paid over the last two and a half years.”  (emphasis added)

If his legal education is so worthless to him, why not offer to leave right now?  Today?  In fact when you consider that detail his offer becomes downright offensive.  He wants to complete around two more months of instruction and then get reimbursed for even those two months!

So in the end, this guy’s request sounds like a whiney person who screwed himself, but wants to blame other people for his error.  Which, ironically enough, is something he might have learned how to do in law school.

—————

In the end, if you are contemplating law school, you should absolutely be a wise consumer.  Be honest with yourself about your own abilities.  If you stink at arguing before you apply, you are not magically going to become Clarence Darrow in three years.  If you don’t reasonably believe you will thrive in law school, don’t go.  This is not a simple meal ticket.  Especially in this economy, you will have to step on your classmates’ heads to get a good job.

But if you try and fail, I will sympathize with you, but only if you accept personal responsibility for the mistakes you have made.  No whining that you were tricked, please.

[Posted and authored by Aaron Worthing.]

62 Responses to “Above Personal Responsibility?”

  1. The primary reason for the increase on college tuition is the availability of money (basically the same reason for the housing bubble/crisis).

    Making student loan debt dischargable in bankruptcy will significant and positive effect in reducing college costs. Lenders will now make prudent business decisions and market forces will force colleges to adjust accordingly. The education cartel wont like it – standard claim that is the only way for the poor to afford college, etc.

    Joe (6120a4)

  2. Assuming that this is the best law school he could be admitted to, why is he going there [Boston College] when there are so many more reasonable options among the state schools? For instance, the University of Kansas costs $25K for even out-of-staters. I mean, yes, it ranks at 67, but bluntly those ranks don’t mean as much as you might think.

    Ranks — or more accurately — reputation mean a lot when it comes hiring. Fair or not, BC looks better on a resume than UK (especially if you’re looking for a legal job outside of Kansas).

    So, yes, I suppose the guy can claim that he “paid for” whatever added prestige he gets from graduating from Boston College on top of the right to receive instruction there. In a crappy economy, that added prestige doesn’t amount to diddly squat, but that’s certainly not BC’s problem.

    Kman (d25c82)

  3. Apropos this topic you might be interested in this video about an experienced lawyer and an incipient 1L student.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE&feature=player_embedded

    Flashman (f9d9a2)

  4. Let’s say BC agrees and refunds his money. Now he’s free to transfer to another school pay 1 semester’s tuition and receive a J.D. Brilliant!

    bob (ad3bc5)

  5. Lessee… too many new lawyers, not enough jobs. Maybe there ARE better choices. While a successful attorney makes a LOT of money, the drop-off can be pretty steep.

    OTOH, US engineering schools produce too few graduates and about half of young engineers seem to come from overseas through H1B visas. True, the peak pay for engineers is lower (but not all that low; I know one guy personally who makes over $300K plus options), but for the forseeable future even a mediocre engineer has a decently-paying job.

    Starting pay from the best schools (CalTech, MIT, Mudd) is something like $70K, down to maybe $50K from the lower percentile of state schools. As long as industry still pursues H1B visa imports, even for marginal English speakers who cannot work on government projects, there is little to fear from job export, which is the one main advantage that the legal profession enjoys (for now).

    Kevin M (298030)

  6. What judgment should be entered against BC Law if the job numbers were fraudulently created and represented to students? What is the value of such assertions?

    What would BC’s ranking have otherwise been with true and correct employment statistics? How much value should a court assess the new lower ranking?

    Are these then not tripled?

    Ed from SFV (de2c81)

  7. I’ve read several items at the blog. The main theme seems to be that they want jobs at BigLaw (big New York firms, etc) and that everyone else in the legal profession is beneath contempt. The sense of entitlement is astonishing, as exemplfied by the student who made a bad choice and now wants someone else to correct it and pay for it. If he can’t solve this kind of problem, you have to wonder what kind of lawyer he’d be in the first place. I bet he voted for Obama and all of the other liberals who are contributing to the current economic crisis.

    My advice: finish school; pass the Bar; get the best job you can, AND STOP VOTING FOR LIBERALS!

    Rochf (ae9c58)

  8. “Top schools” is a bunch of BS. Be a top student – stop whining – learn how to work (including working your feeble brain) – and it doesn’t matter a whit where your degree is from.

    Unless, of course, all you’re concerned about is impressing other stupid people. Like Democrats. Then I suppose a degree, devoid of actual achievement, might be the thing to pursue.

    After all, it worked for our president. If he’s your role model, then go for it.

    Gesundheit (cfa313)

  9. Bailout Nation. “I bought a house and it fell in value; bail me out.” “I bought an education and it turned out to be worth less than I thought; bail me out.” “I made unsustainable pension promises; bail me out.” “I traded credit-default swap contracts that blew up in my face; bail me out!”

    Hey, I bought a block of Global Crossing stock ten years ago! Where’s my bailout?

    My Beanie Baby collection lost 99% of its value! Where’s my bailout?

    It makes me f%$king sick to my stomach.

    gp (72be5d)

  10. My guess is he learned about personal responsibility in law school.
    Where else has he been for the last several years?

    Richard Aubrey (59fa91)

  11. For the many unemployed law grads with massive student loan debt, it’s unfair to heap blame on law schools and particularly galling to hear the solution proposed by that BC 3L. What “empty promises” were made to this guy? If admitted for the fall of ’08, he applied in Spring ’08 at the latest. Were BC’s employment stats for the Class of ’08 misleading? Did BC’s admission people know at the time that the employment market would crater in 8 months?

    Law schools have their problems, including misleading employment stats and, for many of the most reputable, a teaching model that’s less useful to the students than Aaron credits.

    Nonetheless, the misleading puffery could just reflect schools competing with each other for the brightest students, rather than enticing thousands of applicants who otherwise wouldn’t have gone to law school at all.

    Allen (d392d1)

  12. Over-saturated? Nonsense! The US desperately NEEDS more lawyers! A mere 70% of the global supply simply isn’t ENOUGH!

    mojo (8096f2)

  13. Why is it not a shock that a lawyer (in training) would think he has a right to ask for his tuition back because he can’t get a job he wants.

    Mao was right, first the lawyers.

    javert (a8a9b2)

  14. I have a job for him and his wife.

    Requires make-up, a depilitory for him, and kneed pads for both.

    Great business because you sell the product for good cash yet you get to keep the asset afterwards.

    ** And this is why I don’t look down at Hookers or Strippers. At least they are trying to make an honest living. Not like most lawyers who are the lowest form of parasitic scum.

    javert (a8a9b2)

  15. Were BC’s employment stats for the Class of ’08 misleading?

    Nonetheless, the misleading puffery could just reflect schools competing with each other for the brightest students, rather than enticing thousands of applicants who otherwise wouldn’t have gone to law school at all.

    What if the employment stats were misleading, and did entice many people to go to law school who otherwise would pick a different path?

    I don’t think the student is owed his money back, but those are actual problems. some schools pretend they have a 99.% employment rate with an average salary of $100,000, when they knowingly don’t have anything resembling that. Indeed, a student can get the idea that the hard part is just getting into school.

    On my list of problems with the world, this is very close to the bottom. Law school is competitive, and any student figured that out quickly. BC is a good enough school that if you compete and are qualified mentally, you will have a good future. I think many schools lie about just how few of their graduated are successful, but this amounts to saying ‘I thought I could just breeze through and be rich.’

    the fact is, there are too many lawyers, and many of them are extremely intelligent and ridiculously hard working. It is not a profession to enter if you’re lazy.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  16. It wasn’t Mao, it was Shakespeare!
    King Henry VI Part 2: Act 4. Scene II

    AD-RtR/OS! (3e2169)

  17. BC should give him back his money, but only if he submits to a lobotomy.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3e2169)

  18. It wasn’t Mao, it was Shakespeare!
    King Henry VI Part 2: Act 4. Scene II

    Comment by AD-RtR/OS!

    I’m sure he was kidding, but Shakespeare didn’t so much argue for this as he had a tyrant’s thugs say it as a punchline. After all, you can’t really be an effective Mao type villain without destroying lawyers.

    To hate all lawyers is to ha[t]e the United States. Just because there are some bad ones doesn’t mean there weren’t some great ones. Id I have to take the good with the bad, I would any day of the week.

    [Edited by Aaron W. at Dustin’s request.]

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  19. Yes, what is that they say:
    98% of lawyers give the other 2% a bad name!

    AD-RtR/OS! (3e2169)

  20. AD

    Hey! i resemble resent those remarks!

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  21. Hey, is it my fault that almost the entire 2% is on this blog?

    AD-RtR/OS! (3e2169)

  22. I sure wish I could edit my comments.

    Wowzers.

    AD, there aren’t many professions where a bad egg can cause so much damage as law. Or the opposite. Above the Law is doing the world a favor by trying to ensure people only enter the field if they really want to be lawyers.

    I’ve known a few folks going to law school because they couldn’t think of anything better to do.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  23. I’m about to graduate from law school and I have no idea if I really want to be a lawyer. 🙂

    But I’m already in one successful decently paying career, and I enjoy learning new things and exploring new experiences, so I’m a wierd outlier.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  24. Or, a Renaissance Man.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3e2169)

  25. Dustin

    you mean “hate” instead of “have”? name the issue and i will edit it.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  26. That’s the error I just noticed, Aaron. I appreciate it.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  27. Dustin: it was a hilarious example of typing the exact opposite of what you wanted, though. 🙂

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  28. Dustin: it was a hilarious example of typing the exact opposite of what you wanted, though. 🙂

    Comment by aphrael

    You’re a very funny, clever guy. And yeah, it’s actually true with the error, isn’t it? Though that’s a much wittier comment than I’m ordinarily capable of.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  29. Joe #1:

    Making student loan debt dischargable in bankruptcy will significant and positive effect in reducing college costs. Lenders will now make prudent business decisions and market forces will force colleges to adjust accordingly. The education cartel wont like it – standard claim that is the only way for the poor to afford college, etc.

    That’s a tempting argument but it doesn’t work now that student loans have been nationalized. From now on, allowing students to discharge student loans means that debt will be paid by the taxpayers via the U.S. government. Not only would this not inhibit colleges, it would encourage them to expand more.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  30. This will benefit both of us: on the one hand, I will be free to return to the teaching career I left to come here.

    It’s not the lawyer in him that demands deference to his expected failure. It’s the teacher.

    Virtual Insanity (1d2640)

  31. DRJ @30 – I’m guessing Joe left out the word “not” in his first sentence, which would make it hold together a little better logically.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  32. Dustin,

    A bad egg?

    The only folks who like lawyers are the Publishers of yellow pages …. and that is because lawyers have not figured out how to suck the lifeblood from the, yet.

    The Profession is rotting with cancer from the inside out. It is all about who is gonna get them some at the other guys expense.

    Lawyers hiding evidence or ignoring it.
    Lawyers using escrow funds for personal loans.
    Lawyers paying MDs to lie about medical records.
    Lawyers ignoring the law and inventing “rights” to avoid personal responsibility.

    I am serious, if tomorrow, 99.7% of the lawyers in this country simply disappeared, GDP would jump 25% and fellow citizens would get back to taking care of themselves and respecting each other.

    The Legal Profession is sucking the very life from our country. It teaches nothing but how to be a parasite on society.

    javert (a8a9b2)

  33. Javert, I dare say I’m just as angry, if not moreso, at the problems of bad lawyers.

    I’m just aware this is not 97% of them. I’m also grateful for the amazing bounty of many of our good lawyers, over the course of centuries.

    You’re talking about serious issues with ambulance chasers, but the legal profession includes such things as writing the constitution and fighting for your rights.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  34. Hell, you also implicated doctors in comment 33.

    Should we generalize that all doctors are evil? Of course not. There are bad ones, and there are good ones.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  35. javert, Dr. Kevorkian will see you now!

    AD-RtR/OS! (3e2169)

  36. #34, Dustin,

    Too many lawyers. Lawyers live off the fat of the land.

    The legal profession, much like bankers and accountants should be “high leverage” professions which is to say a few of them, very very busy, making lots of money, doing the things that really matter.

    But that is not what we have today and worse yet the regulatory bodies which create their underlying demand are run by themselves and they create laws to assure even more demand for their services.

    Less lawyers, more engineers.

    javert (a8a9b2)

  37. #35, Doctors provide services to those in need of something real usually for situations not of their making. Lawyers sue them.

    javert (a8a9b2)

  38. Agreed

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  39. Dammit. I agreed with 37.

    I don’t really agree with 38. Obama told me doctors are trying to remove tonsils and all that. Bastards.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  40. #36, If I could Kevorkian 100,000 lawyers with a press of a button ……… …. maybe I will get 300,000 instead.

    They are parasites for the most part and should be treated as such by society. It should be a profession of shame. A neccesary evil but not one celebrated.

    javert (a8a9b2)

  41. There’s a passage in de Tocqueville where he notes that Americans had a habit of suing each other for the slightest reason. Which suggests that overlawyering is not a new phenomenon.

    kishnevi (9ee373)

  42. And, what’s worse, they’re doing it just for the fees that flow from Medicare, irrespective of the therapeutic value of the treatment.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3e2169)

  43. #40 Less tonsils = less colds

    That is a good thing even if the procedure is an elective.

    Less sick days
    Less money spent of meds that don’t work.

    Obama knows as much about medicine as he does about earning a private sector paycheck.

    javert (a8a9b2)

  44. #41…Ah, you’ve hit upon the Final Solution to the Lawyer Problem in America.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3e2169)

  45. #43, I might be wrong but I don’t think Medicare covers tonsil removal. Much like they don’t cover pregnancies.

    javert (a8a9b2)

  46. #45 (Press), (PRESS), (PRESS!!!!)

    javert (a8a9b2)

  47. Earth to javert….
    We’re speaking in a lot of metaphors here.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3e2169)

  48. Solving problems is actually easy so long as you think the collateral damage is worth it.

    Lawyers vanishing in thin air like a hippie in 1970’s Argentina is an anecdotal data point this country is on the right track.

    javert (a8a9b2)

  49. #48, Really? Where did you get your Law Degree?

    javert (a8a9b2)

  50. You’re asking this of someone who frequently quotes “Dick, the Butcher”?

    AD-RtR/OS! (3e2169)

  51. #51, Yes, where did you go to Law School? Graduate School maybe?

    javert (a8a9b2)

  52. No law school, no grad school.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3e2169)

  53. #53, OK. College?

    javert (a8a9b2)

  54. javert, are you the grand inquisitor now?

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  55. Yes! Plus, Basic-Training and Tech-School!…and driver training, NRA Instructors School, Bosch Fuel Injection School, and too many gun-control seminars than I care to think about – but, now I can hit what I aim for.
    But, I flunked out of Race-Driver’s School – twice.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3e2169)

  56. …Oh, I forgot Management Training, Cooking, and Mixologist School.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3e2169)

  57. I flunked out of Race-Driver’s School – twice.

    Comment by AD-RtR/OS!

    Racist!

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  58. Yes! I left too few black steaks on the course.

    AD-RtR/OS! (3e2169)

  59. streaks, too!

    AD-RtR/OS! (3e2169)

  60. #55, Yeah, why not …. will change my name to Torquemada

    javert (a8a9b2)

  61. #56, Cool. Just curious. Tks.

    Torquemada (a8a9b2)


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