Patterico's Pontifications

8/16/2010

Ninth Circuit Stays Gay Marriages Until December

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 5:16 pm



Hot Air has the full text of the order. More updates soon.

UPDATE: I meant December, not September. Headline fixed.

264 Responses to “Ninth Circuit Stays Gay Marriages Until December”

  1. The Ninth Circuit is being unusually slow about providing the order on its website.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  2. volokh has the text, aph.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (f97997)

  3. Aaron, aye, as do several other people.

    Doesn’t stop me from wanting it from the court itself. :)

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  4. The appeal panel ordered the parties to focus on the issue of standing, with particular reference to Arizonans for Official English versus Arizona.

    The SCOTUS was unanimous in criticizing the 9th Circuit — the same one engaged in this Prop 8 appeal — for entertaining the complaint “without benefit of the views of the Arizona Supreme Court”. Such is not the case here; indeed, Prop 8 was a response to the California Supreme Court ruling.

    The unanimous opinion of the SCOTUS was authored by Justice Ruth Ginsburg. It focused on the law in question being a state law (which IS the case here), and whether the plaintiff could legitimately point to actual impact (to which Judge Walker dedicated numerous pages of findings of fact).

    Otherwise, the most remarkable part of the order from the panel is how it is fast-tracking the process.

    Off to Intrade.

    shooter (32dc25)

  5. I wonder if the judges did this because they were following the rule of law, or because they wanted a chance to strike down the traditional and historic definition of marriage in nine states and two U.S. territories.

    Michael Ejercito (249c90)

  6. Our society and values have gone downhill ever since we were dumb enough to give women the right to vote. If the supremes do the right thing and protect us from this insanity, we shouldn’t be reactive anymore. We need to completely reverse the liberal perversion of our values. Bring back the sodomy laws. Classify homosexuality as the disease it is. End racial quotas and affirmative actions and any other race-based program. Restrict the vote to tax-paying men.

    Chris (a74281)

  7. So they didn’t buy Walker’s clever explanation

    ian cormac (8e4d9a)

  8. Chris is pretty much of an idiot. And likely a Moby

    JD (3dc31c)

  9. No doubt this is a maneuver to avoid having the issue bite a number of Democrats in the posterior in November.

    either orr (58d2a4)

  10. Chris = baiter.

    He is just doing this so he can say to his liberal friends, “see, they wouldn’t even disagree with me! they are so intolerant.”

    In fact when it comes to baiting, he is a master. :-)

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (f97997)

  11. An absolute master baiter of the first order, A.W. I haven’t seen anything like that since… well… since I saw the order to make those comments go out from the Soros Empire.

    either orr (58d2a4)

  12. He/she/it did something similar on another thread, AW.

    JD (3dc31c)

  13. Restrict the vote to tax-paying men.

    Comment by Chris

    This is how some dems see the right. It really is. They have to invent this stunted slime of conservative patriarchy in order to have something to feel better than. What’s cute is that they wouldn’t have to do this if they were really so elite.

    However, requiring people to pay more than a peppercorn in taxes before having a vote would quickly solve many problems. And, of course, is yet another pipe dream.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  14. Everyone can tell you’re a fake, Chris.

    Patterico (1f7d8f)

  15. I would like to note, for the record, that I called out “Chris” within but a few minutes after his/her/its first idiotic comment.

    JD (3dc31c)

  16. so if you’re a guy and you pay taxes would voting be mandatory of just if you wanted to cause I was thinking about just getting tasty pancakes instead but you know what I don’t even know what time that place opens on Tuesday morning

    happyfeet (19c1da)

  17. *or* just if you wanted to

    happyfeet (19c1da)

  18. No, happyfeet, voting should not be mandatory.

    In Australia, mandatory voting has led to ordering ballots randomly by raffle. They have to do this because the first guy on the ballot wins so often, and it was unfair to people with latter alphabetism.

    So, in other words, mandatory voting is like choosing your leaders by raffle.

    That’s an improvement over our system, but it’s obviously not acceptable.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  19. Everyone can tell you’re a fake, Chris.

    Comment by Patterico — 8/16/2010 @ 8:21 pm

    Echo.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  20. JD

    Okay, so a Moby is a person like chris doing what i accused him of? I can’t get a good definition from anyone what moby is.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (f97997)

  21. ordering ballots randomly by raffle

    We sort of do that in California.

    Elections Code Section 13112 provides a procedure for creating a random alphabet draw, the results of which determine the ballot order.

    aphrael (73ebe9)

  22. AW,

    the musician, Moby, told liberals to pretend they were conservatives in order to say ridiculous things, either to smear Republicans (for example, saying that Laura Bush got an abortion), or to agitate.

    That’s the origin of the term.

    A popular, but kinda weak version of this is the ‘concern troll’.

    ————————->>>X<<<<

    ***THE MORE YOU KNOW***

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  23. Anyway i have said here in some thread that the 9th circuit needs to step in and be the adults. this is hope that it is finally happening.

    I mean let me share a true story. A long time ago when i was applying for law school i ran into a snag. i have mentioned, i think, that i am handicapped. So the LSAC, which runs the LSAT (the law school SAT) refused to provide my request for reasonable accommodations. So when it was clear that they were not going to budge, i took them to court. It was about 4 weeks before the test date and i sought a preliminary injunction. mind you, this was in Texas, as in the 5th circuit and long before congress amended the ADA to be a little more logical. Winning there was like a camel in the eye of a needle.

    But i did beat them there. it didn’t hurt that the opposing counsel was actually bigoted in her argument. As my lawyer said, the advantage handicapped people have is that when people hate them they haven’t learned to lie about it yet, like with gender or race.

    Now the legal standard for a preliminary junction at that place and time is essentially the same as for stay pending appeal, because the issue is pretty much the same. the idea of both is to prevent you from automatically losing because of the time it takes the courts to work your claim out.

    So when the judge found in my favor, the LSAC’s lawyer threw in the towel. that was it, game over. They stopped fighting.

    So i take the granting of a stay to be a sign that Walker’s ruling is in real danger. Which makes me smile broadly, because i have been saying for days there are grown ups in the 9th circuit, and it is high time they stepped in.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (f97997)

  24. Moby: “An insidious and specialized type of left-wing troll who visits blogs and impersonates a conservative for the purpose of either spreading false rumors intended to sow dissension among conservative voters, or who purposely posts inflammatory and offensive comments for the purpose of discrediting the blog in question. The term is derived from the name of the liberal musician Moby, who famously suggested in February of 2004 that left-wing activists engage in this type of subterfuge.”

    From Urban Dictionary.

    navyvet (206534)

  25. Dustin

    Ah, and i assumed it was related to the literary character. As in wow, you are a Moby ____.

    But now i think about it, i do remember Moby saying that. What a douchey thing to say. you would think a guy who made most of his career putting samples of blues singers over spacey techno would be a little more humble.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (f97997)

  26. AW – Dustin’s definition is good. Go with that one.

    JD (3dc31c)

  27. Dustin

    “the more you know.”

    My favorite was the awful tagline they would use on GI Joe, on those PSA sections of the show done to satisfy government regulators. “Now you know. And knowing is half the battle.” Argh, i just threw up in my mouth a little.

    The recent movie was mainly forgettable, except for some sweet ninja on ninja action.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (f97997)

  28. How am I a fake? I would be glad to debate and defend every point I just made. Are you saying that we can’t stick up for our beliefs just because liberals would make fun of them?

    Chris (cc3898)

  29. Oh, you can have your antiquated beliefs, but that does not mean I/we cannot mock you.

    JD (3dc31c)

  30. Let’s see here, the history of the DEMOCRAT Party and its henchmen is that the DEMOCRAT Party worked very hard to prevent women and blacks the right to vote. So, anyone claiming that women shouldn’t vote actually sits with the history of the DEMOCRAT Party and not with any truth among Conservatives and Libertarians who write and comment here.

    So, yes, “Chris,” you are indeed a Moby.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  31. LOL, Chris. You would be glad to defend every point you made?

    Why do you think women shouldn’t have the right to vote?

    What kind of moron would stick that in your comment, earnestly trying to explain why homosexuality is a disease? Don’t you agree that sounds like a fake person trying to convey this concept of those opposed to this ruling as motivated by … well, silly ideas?

    Whether you agree with same sex marriage or think homosexuality is a disease (or both, which is easily possible), the much more horrible issue is the way our democracy is short circuited by judges who behave like idiots.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  32. I hereby call you out, Chris. Defend every aspect of your idiocy.

    JD (3dc31c)

  33. The truth shall set you free, “Chris.”

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  34. A quibble: The order is stayed pending further order of a Ninth Circuit panel, which might come as early as December (after the expedited briefing and argument), but might come later, depending on when a panel decides the case on its merits.

    Beldar (a47d40)

  35. Here’s the order from today, by the way.

    Beldar (a47d40)

  36. And with apologies to our host for the shameless link-whoring, here’s my extended take on the stay ruling: In same-sex marriage appeal, Ninth Circuit surprises Beldar with both composition of panel and results.

    Beldar (a47d40)

  37. ____________________________________

    How am I a fake? I would be glad to debate and defend every point I just made. Are you saying that we can’t stick up for our beliefs just because liberals would make fun of them?

    Just make sure that when you’re looking in the mirror, the leftist sentiment described below isn’t staring straight back at you:

    Reason.com, December 2006:

    [Arthur C.] Brooks [a public policy professor at Syracuse University] finds that households with a conservative at the helm gave an average of 30 percent more money to charity in 2000 than liberal households (a difference of $1,600 to $1,227). The difference isn’t explained by income differential — in fact, liberal households make about 6 percent more per year. Poor, rich, and middle class conservatives all gave more than their liberal counterparts. And while religion is a major factor, the figures don’t just show tithing to churches. Religious donors give significantly more to non-religious causes than do their secular counterparts.

    The people who give the least are the young, especially young liberals. Brooks writes that “young liberals — perhaps the most vocally dissatisfied political constituency in America today – are one of the least generous demographic groups out there…. In 2002, they were 12 percent less likely to give money to charities, and one-third less likely to give blood.”

    He writes that young liberals are less likely do nice things for their nearest and dearest, too. Compared with young conservatives, “a lower percentage said they would prefer to suffer than let a loved one suffer, that they are not happy unless the loved one is happy, or that they would sacrifice their own wishes for those they love.”

    Mark (411533)

  38. Let me if I understand this. On a conservative blog, disputing liberal myths about racial and gender equality is now “idiocy”? It is a fact that women are by nature irrational and ill-suited to make informed decisions on public policy. The founders understood this. I mean, on any given political blog the commenters are 80 to 90 percent male, showing that men are far more concerned and informed about political issues. Due to their obsessive need of “security” women skew the vote left. Sure there are exceptions, but the general trend is clear. Homosexuality was rightly classified as a disease until 1973, post counter-cultural revolution. And really, only tax payers should be involved in determining how their money is spent. Do I even need to point out the insanity of racial quotas? My general point still stands: as conservatives we need to not only stop liberal bs, we need to start rolling it back. I can’t believe any true conservatives would want to defend feminist garbage or other pseudo-marxist ideas.

    Chris (3e47ac)

  39. Let me if I understand this. On a conservative blog, disputing liberal myths about racial and gender equality is now “idiocy”? It is a fact that women are by nature irrational and ill-suited to make informed decisions on public policy. The founders understood this. I mean, on any given political blog the commenters are 80 to 90 percent male, showing that men are far more concerned and informed about political issues. Due to their obsessive need of “security” women skew the vote left. Sure there are exceptions, but the general trend is clear. Homosexuality was rightly classified as a disease until 1973, post counter-cultural revolution. And really, only tax payers should be involved in determining how their money is spent. Do I even need to point out the insanity of racial quotas? My general point still stands: as conservatives we need to not only stop liberal bs, we need to start rolling it back. I can’t believe any true conservatives would want to defend feminist garbage or other pseudo-marxist ideas.

    Comment by Chris — 8/17/2010 @ 5:51 am

    The First Rule of Holes: When in one, stop digging.

    NavyspyII (df615d)

  40. Beldar

    I am sure patterico has no problem with you linking, especially since I think I speak for everyone when I say I wish you would blog more. :-)

    Chrissy the Moby

    First, that is not a defense but a rant. And I for one am not buying your routine.

    > On a conservative blog,

    I think that is your first problem right there. I tend to be conservative on most topics, but I don’t sit there and say, “okay, I am conservative so I must believe X, Y, and Z.”

    > disputing liberal myths about racial and gender equality is now “idiocy”?

    So the races are unequal? As for gender, I will concede that for me the jury is out on physical inequality, but not for mental abilities. So if women’s basketball always stinks I won’t be surprised, but women have shown themselves more than capable as, say, lawyers.

    And the especially idiotic part is the obvious moby-ishness of it all.

    > It is a fact that women are by nature irrational and ill-suited to make informed decisions on public policy.

    You remind me of Judge Walker, stating “facts” that aren’t actually facts. For instance, in law, I find the biggest ditzes to be male. Starting with Bruce Ackerman.

    For instance, I know of a company that was started about 16 years ago. It has grown since then to having a revenue of something like $24 million. Its founder and president, is a woman. Something tells me she has her head together better than you do.

    But this is another example of your mobyishness. Name five prominent conservatives who want to repeal the 19th amendment? Because the actual conservative value is that everyone deserves a vote. And what a complete waste of time it would be to even try. Women are technically the majority. So how does that argument work, “you women are too stupid to vote! So I want you to vote for people who will take away your right to vote. So vote to remove your vote because you are too stupid to vote.”

    (Then again, I remember the guys on “The Man Show” screwing around by getting women to sign a petition to end the suffrage of woman, by exploiting the fact that “suffrage” sounds like “suffering,” and that almost no one knows what suffrage actually is. Eventually one woman caught on and chewed them out.)

    > I mean, on any given political blog the commenters are 80 to 90 percent male, showing that men are far more concerned and informed about political issues.

    More alleged facts that bear only a passing resemblance to reality. really, seriously if I as to judge by the comments on blogs, I would diagnose this entire country as retarded.

    Present company excepted of course (except for Chrissy Hooten). But really there is some stupidity written here, and there is a ton of stupidity everywhere else.

    > Due to their obsessive need of “security” women skew the vote left.

    Yeah because “security” and “law and order” are issues dems win. Moby logic I suppose.

    > Homosexuality was rightly classified as a disease

    Mmm, now there is Marxism for you, the use of psychiatry in the place of moral judgment. I mean that right there betrays liberal thinking.

    > And really, only tax payers should be involved in determining how their money is spent

    Except that is not the only issue involved when voting. Although I will happily concede that we have too many people who pay no taxes at all, and I would like to see our taxes shifted, without raising the overall amount of revenue attempted to be raised, I would like to see the tax burden go further down the chain. Of course as a practical matter that will never happen but I can wish…

    > Do I even need to point out the insanity of racial quotas?

    Many liberals would cite you as a perfect example of why we NEED quotas. Which is again why we call moby on you.

    > I can’t believe any true conservatives would want to defend feminist garbage or other pseudo-marxist ideas

    Feminism = communism. Well, that is a new one.

    Psst, if you are going to moby like that, I suggest you use terms like feminazis, instead. it sounds more plausible.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  41. No, Chris. Your idiocy makes it idiocy. You may proclaim you desire to dispute liberal myths on gender and race. But you do not do so. You display your ignorance. Nobody here agrees with your views, take your Moby act elsewhere.

    JD (bbb18c)

  42. Please explain to me why exactly you find the views of the founders and myself to be “idiotic”. Shutting down debate by crying “ignorance” is a liberal tactic. Maybe you are a moby…

    Chris (2f79db)

  43. Your words speak for themselves. Don’t, not even for a second, think that you and the Founders share the same views. You are not fit to wipe the sweat from their ballz.

    JD (bbb18c)

  44. So the founders agreed with women suffrage, racial quotas, and homosexuality being okay? News to me. Why don’t you argue based on the facts instead of making personal attacks?

    Chris (2f79db)

  45. Prissy Chrissy

    > Please explain to me why exactly you find the views of the founders and myself to be “idiotic”.

    The founders believed in psychiatry?

    > Shutting down debate by crying “ignorance” is a liberal tactic.

    Actually the tactic is speciously crying bigotry, sexism, racism, etc. only problem is that there is nothing specious about calling you any of those. The shoe fits.

    > Maybe you are a moby…

    “I know you are but what am i?”

    J.D.

    > You are not fit to wipe the sweat from their ballz.

    Indeed, those who were deemed fit to do so became world renown for it. Andrew Jackson for instance did this for Washington, and later in turn Sam Houston did this for Jackson.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  46. “Bigotry”, “racism”, and “sexism” are words liberals invented to shut down debate instead of arguing based on merit. Conservatives should never fall into the trap of using these words because they mean embracing the liberal world view.

    Chris (2f79db)

  47. So a man who says the races are not equal and women should not vote, says it is wrong to call him a racist and a sexist. mmmmkay.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  48. They would be wrong because the “racist” “sexist” person would be telling the truth. The races are not equal. Black iq is one standard deviation lower than white iq, a difference that persists even when accounting for socioeconomic status. This a fact that can be looked up, only the causes are disputed. And women have only rarely led or advised great nations in the past. That is because their role is designed to have and take care of children. They are more interested in silly status competitions with each other than making an informed, rational decision at the ballot box. They vote for “feel good” candidates that are usually liberals.

    Chris (2f79db)

  49. Good Allah. This one is tiresome. I apologize, Chris, that we do not share your views. Maybe you could go find people that agree with your warped and distorted views elsewhere.

    JD (bbb18c)

  50. Quote cited by Mark:
    The people who give the least are the young, especially young liberals. Brooks writes that “young liberals — perhaps the most vocally dissatisfied political constituency in America today – are one of the least generous demographic groups out there…. In 2002, they were 12 percent less likely to give money to charities, and one-third less likely to give blood.”

    — It makes sense, of course, that the group that most fervently wants the government to steal the treasure of the wealthy and redistribute it to everyone else would not wish to give of themselves. For people like that, it’s not their job . . . literally above their pay grade.

    Icy Texan (4f3a8e)

  51. Let’s go Moby fisking!
    Comment by Chris — 8/17/2010 @ 5:51 am
    38. Let me [see] if I understand this.
    — You don’t.

    On a conservative blog, disputing liberal myths about racial and gender equality is now “idiocy”?
    — Yes, because the vast majority of conservatives (believe it or not, but you might as well believe it . . . because it’s true) DO NOT dispute it. What we do dispute is the “need” for discriminatory laws in order to force equality (the liberal definition of equality) in certain situations.

    It is a fact that women are by nature irrational and ill-suited to make informed decisions on public policy.
    — Human beings, by nature, are irrational. And NOTHING is a “fact” just because you say so.

    The founders understood this.
    — At a time when women had more children, starting at a younger age, and lived shorter lives, more time had to be spent for child rearing. Life was hard. And yet, the founders were still wrong. Society was patriarchal at the time; that situation has been remedied.

    I mean, on any given political blog the commenters are 80 to 90 percent male, showing that men are far more concerned and informed about political issues.
    — Maybe a large percentage of them are women using male pseudonyms just to fool you. How do you know? Maybe we males just goof off more at work.

    Due to their obsessive need of “security” women skew the vote left. Sure there are exceptions, but the general trend is clear.
    — In the ’08 election 43% of the females that voted went for McCain, compared to 48% of males. Yeah, that’s a huge “skew” there, pal.

    Homosexuality was rightly classified as a disease until 1973, post counter-cultural revolution.
    — Somebody staged a revolution against the counter-culture? Oh yeah, now I remember: Viva la Reagan Revolucion.

    And really, only tax payers should be involved in determining how their money is spent.
    — Whatever that means. If you mean that tax cheats like Rangel shouldn’t sit on the appropriations committee, then I’m right there with you, brother!

    Do I even need to point out the insanity of racial quotas?
    — No. The odds were that if you kept going you would eventually say ONE thing that made sense. Good job!

    My general point still stands: as conservatives we need to not only stop liberal bs, we need to start rolling it back. I can’t believe any true conservatives would want to defend feminist garbage or other pseudo-marxist ideas.
    — This is true. And don’t be afraid to call things that Bambi & Co do what they are: full-out Marxist ideas. Now, your examples of where any of the true conservatives on this blog are doing what you allege?

    Icy Texan (4f3a8e)

  52. The races are not equal. Black iq is one standard deviation lower than white iq, a difference that persists even when accounting for socioeconomic status.

    That’s true. But there is no IQ test for citizenship rights. The races are equal before the law, if not in collage graduation rates.

    Subotai (eed222)

  53. Chris is just pining for the days when he could hang out with Bull Connor and Sen Byrd (KKK-Dem)

    JD (bbb18c)

  54. Prissy Chrissy Princess

    > They would be wrong because the “racist” “sexist” person would be telling the truth.

    No, they would be correctly calling you a racist or sexist, but you take it as a compliment.

    > The races are not equal. Black iq is one standard deviation lower than white iq, a difference that persists even when accounting for socioeconomic status.

    Actually to be exact, there is an IQ score difference. I have been taking IQ tests constantly throughout my life (long story) so I know enough to know there is a world of difference between intelligence and IQ scores.

    And in fact in the transracial adoption study, it showed that the IQ scores did not persist. When black children were adopted by white parents at first they scored comparably with their non-adopted white peers. Then as they grew up the score fell. The bell curve idiots asserted this was their “true” IQ asserting itself, but ignoring 1) the fact that this evidence completely delegitimized their reliance on IQ testing as a proxy for intelligence, and 2) was better explained by increased awareness of the world and accumulated life experiences as they grew up. Environment, and not raw intelligence, is the most natural explanation for the drop. See occam’s razor.

    > And women have only rarely led or advised great nations in the past.

    So your justification of sexism is to rely on past sexism.

    > That is because their role is designed to have and take care of children.

    Having requires at most 9 months of down time. As for taking care of, only a fool thinks a man has no role in that. indeed, the 1950’s model of dad going off to work and leaving mom at home with the kids was largely a 20th century invention. Prior to that date those fathers who did not work at home, as in the home also being their farm, still took their children with them to work, usually so that child could actually work.

    > . They are more interested in silly status competitions with each other than making an informed, rational decision at the ballot box. They vote for “feel good” candidates that are usually liberals.

    First it was security, now this. Look pick one mobying plan and stick to it.

    JD

    > Good Allah.

    Oh, now you have done it. you said the A word.

    > Maybe you could go find people that agree with your warped and distorted views elsewhere.

    I think he can find the nearest Kleagle with google. Or maybe bing.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  55. lol

    when i saw JD commented in this thread, the words lined in the headline lined up to say “The Ninth Circuit Stays Gay” (the word “marriages” being on the next line. i thought to myself “not that there is anything wrong with it.”

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  56. Icy texan, the idea that the average woman is equal to the average man or the average black is equal to the average white is a marxist idea. It completely ignores abundant evidence to the contrary. It was not accepted by this society until liberals shoved it down our throats, the same way they want to shove gay marriage down our throats. If we accept liberal myths about certain issues, we have no standing to fight against them now or in the future. They will always claim that they will be better at enforcing equality and they will always be right if we don’t dispute the premise of their arguments.

    Chris (ffe6ea)

  57. Why are you a homophobe, A.W.? 😉

    JD (bbb18c)

  58. the idea that the average woman is equal to the average man or the average black is equal to the average white is a marxist idea. It completely ignores abundant evidence to the contrary.

    So, now we have established that you are proudly a sexist and a racist … objectively.

    JD (4fc476)

  59. the idea that the average woman is equal to the average man or the average black is equal to the average white is a marxist idea.

    Equal in what sense? The idea that everyone is equally productive is a Marxist idea. “One man, one vote” is not.

    Subotai (eed222)

  60. C’mon, guys. This is a Melville. Big time. There are all kinds of “tells” in the way the fella writes. It’s a game.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  61. OT, this was in the LAT recently.

    Israel moved Sunday to deport the offspring of hundreds of migrant workers, mostly small children who were born in Israel, speak Hebrew and have never seen their parents’ native countries.

    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the new policy was intended to stem a flood of illegal immigrants, whose children receive state-funded education and healthcare benefits, and to defend Israel’s Jewish identity.

    “On the one hand, this problem is a humanitarian problem,” Netanyahu said during a meeting Sunday of the Cabinet, which had debated the move for nearly a year. “We all feel and understand the hearts of children. But on the other hand, there are Zionist considerations and ensuring the Jewish character of the state of Israel.”

    I’m sure that Aaron will write a stern letter to Netanyahu denouncing this ethnocentric outlook.

    Subotai (eed222)

  62. While I would be pretty cool with bibi being in charge of the USA, he isn’t. So what’s that got to do with AW’s views on how the USA should operate? Everyone knows the USA is not ethnocentric, whereas Israel is.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  63. Prissy Princess

    > is a marxist idea.

    No, the belief in the equality of the races and the intellectual equality of women predates Marx’s life. Really, seriously, smearing the civil rights movement as a Marxist dream is so 1968.

    > It completely ignores abundant evidence to the contrary.

    In truth the evidence pro and con kind of suck. But when you are dealing with humans that is the nature of the beast. After all it would be unethical to carry out anything remotely like “controlled experiments.” And they are not completely controlled, humans are so complex they will introduce a number of complications that no other animal creates.

    For instance, if you want to test the efficacy of a medication on dogs, you do this. you give some dogs the medication and other dogs you don’t. simple, right? But not with humans. The very fact we knew we are taking medication can alter the results, so you also need to give the ones not receiving the medication a placebo. Humans are the only creatures who have these kinds of problems.

    And the why of that famous placebo effect matters, too. Why does taking a sugar pill that you are told might be medicine make you feel better? Well, somehow, we will ourselves to feel better, that’s how. And if we can will ourselves to feel better, then it follows we can will ourselves to be smarter, or at least perform better on an IQ test.

    But you want to pretend those scores are inviolate, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

    > If we accept liberal myths about certain issues, we have no standing to fight against them now or in the future.

    So according to you, affirmative action leads to gay marriage.

    I will say this. i am convinced you are not a moby. A moby wouldn’t be so stubborn in trying to get us to go along with him. i am also convinced you are a major league idiot. Actually I was convinced of that from the get-go.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  64. Everyone knows the USA is not ethnocentric, whereas Israel is.

    Everyone knows that the USA used to be, and will be again.

    Subotai (eed222)

  65. What always makes me chuckle is that one of the leftist trolls will quote that clown as an example of who we are and what we represent.

    JD (4fc476)

  66. Frankly, Subotai, I don’t care for your view of our little country. There are some points where our ideas overlap, but this whole return to ethnocentric crap is rather noxious.

    JD (4fc476)

  67. Aaron, it has been shown that iq becomes more influenced by genetics as one ages. There were no fundamental environmental changes that could account for the drop. Yes, I realize that legally we are equal, but that doesn’t change the fact it is wrong and a willful perversion of what the founders were thinking.

    Chris (f96a20)

  68. subby

    mmm, yeah, first, given that the press gets almost everything wrong about isreal, including the LAT, i would start by wondering what the real story is.

    But, the fact is isreal has a special need to be a little ethnocentric right now. jews have been continually pogromed (genocided, more or less) in isreal for centuries. Around the late 1940’s they decided that they were sick and tired of taking this abuse and isreal was born. it was created in recognition that the world for some insane reason contains alot of jew hate, and jews might do better defending themselves in a majority jewish state. i have long said that race conscious action is best justified when fighting other race conscious action. ditto with the ethno-religious issue there. the isrealis are more justified than most in trying to keep isreal jewish, because the entire purpose of isreal is to create a safe haven for jews, and an international voice for jews everywhere. and history has taught us that for some freakish reason, they really need that kind of thing.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  69. I know it is the Declaration of Independence, but

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

    JD (4fc476)

  70. Frankly, Subotai, I don’t care for your view of our little country

    Frankly, I don’t care for yours.

    I’m glad we’ve had this frank exchange. I assume you’ve put your body where your dopy beliefs are and moved to Detroit.

    Subotai (eed222)

  71. You know, Subotai, I basically never even think of what race I am, but I’m pretty sure you don’t think I’m as authentic an American as you are, despite the fact that I’m a vet who has buried a lot of friends. And by a lot, I mean 24.

    I easily could have an nk style reaction to you, but that’s probably what you wanted in the first place. I could care less. America has been and will be a place where deeply wrong ideas are freely expressed, because the answer to wrong ideas is simply right ideas. I look to this ‘white people and Christians’ business (I’m Christian, but my father wasn’t when he immigrated) as a great example. You’re not helping the cause of Christ or the USA. You’re helping the cause of the Cordoba mosque, in my opinion.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  72. Prissy

    > it has been shown that iq becomes more influenced by genetics as one ages.

    No. In fact the reverse is true. For instance identical twins are more alike at birth than as they age, because difference in eating habits, and other lifestyle issues intrude, compound and become more relevant.

    > There were no fundamental environmental changes that could account for the drop.

    How about becoming more aware that you are a black person growing up in America and there are bigots arrayed against you everwhere, even in the comments here? Is that an environmental change that could account for the drop? The answer is an easy yes.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  73. Subotai – What idea have I expressed that you find so noxious? Why in the world would anyone ever want to go to Detroit?

    JD (4fc476)

  74. Chris could be a Paulian. An awful lot of them have that nutty liberal racisty vibe.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  75. the fact is isreal has a special need to be a little ethnocentric right now.

    Balls. Israel has no “special need” to deport Filipino kids which a liberal like you is obligated to recognize.

    i have long said that race conscious action is best justified when fighting other race conscious action.

    Then wake up, because we are fighting “race conscious action”. The American left is a self-consciously racial movement. The America left is a self-consciously anti-white movement.


    the isrealis are more justified than most in trying to keep isreal jewish

    It’s always remarkable to encounter people like you – non-Jews who are more vociferous in their defense of Israel than they are in defense of their own country. In fact, non-Jews who are more vociferous in the defense of Israel than are most America Jews!

    I’m not objecting to Israels actions, just trying to understand what strange contortions you must go through to condone in one country what you denounce as bigotry in others.

    Subotai (eed222)

  76. “The American left is a self-consciously racial movement. The America left is a self-consciously anti-white movement.”

    Bulldookey. The American left is an identity politics movement. They have a vested interest in keeping our society fractured so that they can cater to various “victim” groups at election time and ignore them otherwise. A more egalitarian, colorblind society that conservative wish for would be the death of the Democrat party.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  77. Why would it matter that AW isn’t a Jew? He’s considering the holocaust and how the world treats Jews. Does the world need a sanctuary state for white Christians? No. So they aren’t really comparable.

    What whites and every other American need is a race neutral society. Playing into this white vs non white idea is actually giving the left a huge assist. It’s the absolute best argument to make if you want to help them in their division of our people.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  78. daleyrocks said the same think, only better.

    I would much rather live in Obama’s America than Subotai. The race card is maxed out, remember? Why up the limit on that sucker?

    Subotai is way too worried about people’s breeding. Go to a dog show.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  79. For those who decry “bigotry” and “racism” in America, just remember that slavery still exists in other areas of the World,
    and that xenophobia was not created by the John Birch Society (or even practiced very well by it).

    And, as to “…Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness…”:
    Life is what you make of it;
    Liberty is yours to give up;
    and you have the Right to pursue happiness, no one is guaranteed to attain it (see Life).

    AD - RtR/OS! (17dd7c)

  80. Thanks Dustin. Great minds.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  81. For those who decry “bigotry” and “racism” in America, just remember that slavery still exists in other areas of the World,

    As usual, America is better than most of the world, but is not perfect. In this case, America is far, far better than almost all of the world. Most of the racism in this country does emanate from the left, Sherrod style, but it’s amazingly short sighted and primitive to react to that by seeing if we can’t fight fire with fire.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  82. Why in the world would anyone ever want to go to Detroit?

    Are you saying that there is something wrong with a majority black city, you racist?

    /sarc

    This is where “right-liberalism” (as opposed to conservatism) ties itself in knots. On the one hand there is a dogmatic insistence that all people are equal in every way, not just before the law. On the other hand, in their day to day lives, right-liberals behave in ways which show they are perfectly cognizant of group differences and act on that recognition.

    It either is or is not a matter of social, political and cultural importance what Americas racial and ethnic make up is. The official position of right liberalism is that – it’s not. See Aaron’s lengthy missives on that topic. But on the personal level, things are different.

    I’m encouraging Aaron to try to square that circle.

    Subotai (eed222)

  83. I have always thought that Conservatives deal with individuals, while Leftists markedly deal in groups.
    It is the pandering to groups that offends most Americans.

    AD - RtR/OS! (17dd7c)

  84. Sub

    > Balls. Israel has no “special need” to deport Filipino kids which

    You missed the import of my first comment. I don’t trust the LAT. And you would think as a regular at Patterico, you wouldn’t either. I mean you don’t HAVE to agree with patterico on this point that the LAT suck donkey balls, but he does marshal a lot of convincing evidence to that point.

    > The American left is a self-consciously racial movement.

    Agreed, but so what does that lead to?

    > The America left is a self-consciously anti-white movement.

    Um, okay, stepping away quietly now.

    > It’s always remarkable to encounter people like you – non-Jews who are more vociferous in their defense of Israel than they are in defense of their own country.

    Jews are not like most other people. they SHOULD BE like other people. But there is no other people I can think of in world history that spent so long without a country and received so much abuse in every country they found themselves in, culminating in a holocaust. I can’t treat them like any other country because no one else treats them like any other country.

    And you are trying to convince me of a certain point of view, Sub, but you are amazingly non-specific about what your actual point of view is.

    So I said that anyone of any faith, ethnicity or race is as entitled to the title American as anyone else. That what binds this country together is a devotion to an ideal of freedom. You claim this makes me a liberal. You claim to defend the conservative position. And when I suggested you are arguing for an ethnic/religious definition of American you claimed I was misrepresenting you. Fair enough, then represent yourself. Tell us what you really think so we can discuss it. because right now I feel like I am punching jello.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  85. Some people conflate political ideology and race, it seems. Detroit’s demise has little to do with race and everything to do with the multitude of statist little socialisms their government has inflicted on the citizenry.

    JD (4fc476)

  86. “On the one hand there is a dogmatic insistence that all people are equal in every way, not just before the law. On the other hand, in their day to day lives, right-liberals behave in ways which show they are perfectly cognizant of group differences and act on that recognition.”

    Subotai – I don’t know what you mean by equal in every way and would be interested in some examples. I would phrase it as having an interest that all people have equal opportunities and are equal before the law. If by your second sentence you are referring to freedom of association, what problem do you see there?

    daleyrocks (940075)

  87. > Why in the world would anyone ever want to go to Detroit?

    I just watched robocop for the 10th time, this time on blu ray. if he was there, i would go, and bring lots of popcorn.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  88. subotai is dead right that it is classically liberal to see all folks as equal before the law, equally American, etc.

    It’s a crying shame that the word Liberal is so screwed up these days that it’s meant insultingly even when used correctly.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  89. AD

    > I have always thought that Conservatives deal with individuals, while Leftists markedly deal in groups.

    One of the smartest things that O’Connor has ever written was this: “At the heart of the Constitution’s guarantee of equal protection lies the simple command that the Government must treat citizens as individuals, not as simply components of a racial, religious, sexual or national class.”

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  90. You missed the import of my first comment. I don’t trust the LAT.

    That’s an odd thing to say. First, because two seconds with google will show you plenty of other sources of Netanyahu saying the same thing. And secondly, because your other argument was along the lines of “I support Netanyahu in this”.

    So do you agree with him, or think he is being smeared?

    Subotai (eed222)

  91. Dustin

    Ah, you mean Liberal as in Adam Smith and Thomas Jefferson (although Jefferson was a tad inconsistent on this issue), as opposed to say Mondale/Dukakis liberalism. The good news is that now those liberals call themselves progressive, so maybe we can take the term back.

    Btw, have you seen Elanor Mondale, Walter’s daughter. smokin’ hot. and um, reportedly, spent some alone time with bill clinton. there is an incident in the starr report about how monica was kept away from bill, and an agent let slip that Elanor Mondale was with him. it did not go well.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  92. Subotai – I don’t know what you mean by equal in every way and would be interested in some examples.

    You’re wandering into an argument in progress between Aaron and myself. Aaron believes that race, religion, etc are totally unimportant. He thinks that America could be populated by Arab Muslims and still be America.

    It’s the old “proposition nation – pro and con” argument.

    The “con” position is that America is the cultural and political construct of a particular group of people and that it will not long survive their demise.

    Subotai (eed222)

  93. subotai is dead right that it is classically liberal to see all folks as equal before the law, equally American, etc.

    Not the best example, as Jefferson rather pointedly did NOT see all folk as equal before he law.

    But I am right in that it is NOT classically liberal to see all folks as equal in every other way other than when standing before a court of law.

    One thought which would never have crossed the minds of Smith or Jefferson was “What’s the difference if some people from China or Syria want to come here and live in England/America? After all, we’re all just people!”

    Subotai (eed222)

  94. Subotai – I was just reacting to what I felt was a distorted description of conservatism (right-liberalism?) on the thread. If it’s a private conversation, I’ll stay out.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  95. “He thinks that America could be populated by Arab Muslims and still be America.”

    Subotai – That still does not address my question about your statement about people being “equal in every way.”

    daleyrocks (940075)

  96. jesus subby did you just fall off the turnip truck?

    Yeah i picked out the LAT but i also said i didn’t trust any of the media.

    i mean how many media reports were there about the “massacre” at jenin. how many times have they reported falsely on supposed isreali atrocities. nope, i don’t trust them at all.

    For instance, your LA Times article says:

    > Israel moved Sunday to deport the offspring of hundreds of migrant workers, mostly small children who were born in Israel, speak Hebrew and have never seen their parents’ native countries.

    Meanwhile the Jerusalem post literally 100% contradicts that. They state that they are allowing 800 children who are children of illegal immigrants to stay, while deporting 400 others. And they state that the criteria used to determine whether a child stay include:

    > The Prime Minister’s Office Sunday provided media with the five criteria by which foreign workers’ children will be permitted to remain in Israel.

    > The criteria, determined by the inter-ministerial committee that examined the issue were: the child in question had studies in the Israeli educational system, including kindergarten, in the 2009-2010 academic year, the child was registered in an Israeli school for the 2010-2011 academic year, the child had lived in Israel for at least five years continuously, and was either born in Israel or had entered the country before his 13th birthday, the child speaks Hebrew and the child’s parents had entered Israel under a legal visa or work permit.

    http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=183305

    So the jpost says that even in isreal, which as I said has more justification than most other nations in being ethno-religiously centric, recognizes if not birthright citizenship, then at least they won’t deport you either. In fact they will only deport you if you 1) didn’t go to school in isreal last year and didn’t register to go to school this year, 2) had lived in isreal for less than five years, 3) wasn’t born there, 4) didn’t come to isreal until you were 14, 5) don’t speak Hebrew, and 6) your parents hadn’t entered legally. If you fail all of those tests then its really kind of hard to argue that you are very attached to the country in the first place and you won’t typically be all that traumatized on being shown the door.

    So in fact five minutes on google cast considerable doubt on this story that you remarkably cite in the LAT on Patterico. Who knows what we will learn in a month?

    So pardon me if, chastened by experience, I decide to reserve judgment

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  97. Comment by Chris — 8/17/2010 @ 9:36 am
    the idea that the average woman is equal to the average man or the average black is equal to the average white is a marxist idea.
    — “All men are created equal” is in The Communist Manifesto? Funny, I thought it was in the Declaration of Independence.

    It completely ignores abundant evidence to the contrary.
    — For which you will provide abundant evidence, with citations AND a clear definition of what you mean by “equal” in 3, 2, 1 . . .

    It was not accepted by this society until liberals shoved it down our throats, the same way they want to shove gay marriage down our throats.
    — In case you really are totally clueless, THIS is the point where everyone identifies you as a Moby. Equating “gay marriage” (same-sex marriage) with the right of women and blacks to vote or otherwise be treated equally.

    If we accept liberal myths about certain issues, we have no standing to fight against them now or in the future.
    — True. You just have the issues wrong.

    They will always claim that they will be better at enforcing equality
    — As you said, they will always claim it, no matter what.

    and they will always be right if we don’t dispute the premise of their arguments.
    — While I agree with the need to vociferously dispute their arguments, they will NEVER be “right” about it; “accepted” by those that don’t care enough to oppose their views? Yes. See, we agree a little bit . . . IF you are being genuine, that is.

    Icy Texan (4f3a8e)

  98. Sub

    > He thinks that America could be populated by Arab Muslims and still be America.

    As long as they believe in freedom and democracy, yes.

    By the way, what would you do to prevent us from becoming arab Muslims. And if a person is an Arabic Christian, are they kosher by you? How about if they are of English descent, but convert to islam. Still okay? Or is either islam or arabicness itself a problem for you even if not combined in the same person?

    Again, what do you actually believe, here?

    > Not the best example, as Jefferson rather pointedly did NOT see all folk as equal before he law.

    As I said he was inconsistent. When he wrote the declaration he meant it to say exactly that. not literal equality, but equality before the law. That is crystal clear from historical sources.

    > But I am right in that it is NOT classically liberal to see all folks as equal in every other way other than when standing before a court of law.

    As in say you and I (not knowing anything about your ethnicity or religion) are equal of course not. One of us is bound to be smarter, stronger, more knowledgable in different areas, and so on. I mean if everyone was literally equal every chess match would end in stalemate.

    > One thought which would never have crossed the minds of Smith or Jefferson was “What’s the difference if some people from China or Syria want to come here and live in England/America? After all, we’re all just people!”

    So you would do what, exactly? Re-enact the Chinese exclusion acts?

    Out with it. tell us what you really think.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  99. I was just reacting to what I felt was a distorted description of conservatism (right-liberalism?) on the thread. If it’s a private conversation, I’ll stay out.

    It’s a not a private conversation, just giving you the background to where we’re coming from.

    That still does not address my question about your statement about people being “equal in every way.”

    I’m not sure I understand your question then.

    If people are “equal in every way” then it makes zero difference which people live in America. Or in Israel for that matter. In fact if people are “equal in every way” we should expect all parts of the world to be much the same, with minor differences due to climate or geography.

    If people are equal in every way then there is zero difference between a Connecticut WASP and a Sunni Arab. If people are equal in every way then there is zero difference between an Israeli Jew and a Palestinian Muslim.

    Subotai (eed222)

  100. Wow, Subotai, AW took you up on your challenge and showed that you were thoughtless in taking the LA Times word for it.

    I think you wouldn’t have done so if you weren’t focused on race. Why does race even matter to you, anyway? It must matter an awful lot for a Patterico reader to have faith in the La Times.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  101. By the way, what would you do to prevent us from becoming arab Muslims.

    Ban all immigration of Arab Muslims.

    And if a person is an Arabic Christian, are they kosher by you?

    Not by me, no.

    How about if they are of English descent, but convert to islam. Still okay?

    In that case, they are a problem for you. It is your “ideological America” which must exclude people, even native born Americans, who don’t share your approved ideology.

    Again, what do you actually believe, here?

    It’s odd that I can keep telling you, yet you remain forever perplexed.

    So you would do what, exactly? Re-enact the Chinese exclusion acts?

    It’s a start.

    Out with it. tell us what you really think.

    I’m coming to the conclusion that it cannot be explained in simple enough terms for you.

    Subotai (eed222)

  102. Dustin

    You know, you can call me Aaron, you know? Its not like i am in the closet about my identity and the fact i have LD’s.

    And ironically by using the word “closet” my comment has officially become the most relevant comment to this thread since Prissy Chrissy showed up. lol

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  103. Who the hell ever said that people are/were equal in every way?

    The notches on Wilt Chamberlain’s bed-post alone puts that notion to shame!

    Icy Texan (4f3a8e)

  104. AW is 4 keys less than Aaron, though! And it reminds me of root beer.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  105. “… Israel Kuwait moved Sunday to deport the offspring of hundreds of migrant workers (and their parents), mostly small children who were born in Israel Kuwait, speak Hebrew Arab and have never seen their parents’ native countries Palestine…”

    FTFY!

    AD - RtR/OS! (17dd7c)

  106. Yeah i picked out the LAT but i also said i didn’t trust any of the media

    So, uh, why do you trust the Jerusalem post?

    So the jpost says that even in isreal, which as I said has more justification than most other nations in being ethno-religiously centric, recognizes if not birthright citizenship, then at least they won’t deport you either.

    What does your approved story say?

    “Those who allow these children to stay in Israel, are allowing the parents to pull one over on the State of Israel and stay in the country,” Yishai said.

    Interior Minister Eli Yishai believed that the government’s decision was not strict enough. He criticized the government for allowing 800 children to remain in Israel.
    Did you read your own link? Because it says nothing of the sort.


    Industry, Trade and Labor Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer also criticized the decision, saying “that is not the Jewish state that I know, that expels children from it.”

    And the paragraphs following the one you clipped.

    The Interior Ministry will be enabled to grant temporary residence visas to the parents and siblings of the children remaining in Israel under these criteria if they have lived with the child in a joint household since their birth or entry into Israel and were living with them on the date the government reached its decision. Barring any new developments prejudicing their status, the child’s family’s permits will be renewed annually until their child turns 21, at which point the other family members may request permanent resident status.

    The children and foreign workers families who meet these conditions will be allotted 21 days to submit their applications from the date the government’s decision is published in daily newspapers across the nation. Applications may be extended by a clerk for another 21 days if all principal documents have been submitted within the initial time-frame.

    Not exactly birthright citizenship.

    lastly –

    five minutes on google cast considerable doubt on this story that you remarkably cite in the LAT

    You did not cast the slightest doubt on the the story I cited. I cited the Israeli Prime Minister saying certain things. He did in fact say those things. And you have not even pretended to make the case that he did not.

    I guess we can add “considerable doubt” to the list of terms you do not understand.

    Subotai (eed222)

  107. Wow, Subotai, AW took you up on your challenge and showed that you were thoughtless in taking the LA Times word for it.

    How exactly did he do that again? By changing the subject from what Netanyahu said to something else?

    Why does race even matter to you, anyway?

    Is that supposed to be a serious question? Why do politics even matter to you anyway?

    Subotai (eed222)

  108. Sub

    > [me] And if a person is an Arabic Christian, are they kosher by you?

    > [you] Not by me, no.

    Would that include this man?

    > Petty Officer Second Class (SEAL) Michael A. Monsoor will receive the Medal of Honor posthumously in a ceremony at the White House April 8, 2008. He will receive the award for his actions in Ar Ramadi, Iraq on Sept. 29, 2006. On that day, Monsoor was part of a sniper overwatch security position with three other SEALs and eight Iraqi Army (IA) soldiers. An insurgent closed in and threw a fragmentation grenade into the overwatch position. The grenade hit Monsoor in the chest before falling to the ground. Positioned next to the single exit, Monsoor was the only one who could have escaped harm. Instead, he dropped onto the grenade to shield the others from the blast. Monsoor died approximately 30 minutes later from wounds sustained from the blast. Because of Petty Officer Monsoor’s actions, he saved the lives of his 3 teammates and the [Iraqi Army] soldiers.

    http://www.navy.mil/moh/Monsoor/BIO.html

    As Christ said, there is no greater love.

    And yes, Monsoor was of Arab descent, but a devout catholic. http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=36753

    Every right-thinking American should be honored to be able to call Mr. Monsoor an American. God will not hold his ancestry against him, but you would. I could think of no greater indictment of your worldview.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  109. Btw, subby

    you missed my point.

    I don’t have to trust the jpost. indeed i don’t trust them either. all i have to do is say “you can’t trust them.” and that is the logical position.

    although the jpost tends to be more accurate than most. and in a contest between them and the LA Times? no contest.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  110. Aaron-the test had a white control group whose iq was substantially higher. As for black iq being low because people don’t like blacks, that’s just the kind of marxist drivel I was talking about. There has been discrimination against asians, but their iq is quite high. Wake up people. Africans had no written language, no technology, no nothing before evil whitey showed up. Blacks have contributed nothing to this country besides a feudal plantation system and aids. Can anyone here name one important black invention in the last 50 years? Does anyone else notice how successful blacks like Obama or powell just so happen to be mixed raced? The conservative blogosphere was designed to counter msm liberal groupthink, yet we get little to no acknowledgement of racial equality being bull. It is the missed opportunity of a lifetime. How do we expect against mestizo immigration with essentially one hand tied behind our backs?

    Chris (f2a921)

  111. Truth is, in trying to say who is and isn’t a legit American, I think Subotai has shown that he isn’t a real American.

    Why does race even matter to you, anyway?

    Is that supposed to be a serious question? Why do politics even matter to you anyway?

    Comment by Subotai

    Hell yes this is supposed to be a serious question! Explain why race matters so much to you! Your attitude is plainly bizarre and motivated by something you should explain.

    Instead of cowardly hiding what you’re about: just explain why you think it matters whether someone is white or not. You repeatedly insist it matters in some vague way, but why does it matter to you? How can you not see that this is a serious question, anyway? I guess you’re not man enough to just answer, and have to snort instead.

    And also, Aaron showed you were dead wrong on the LA Times’s accuracy.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  112. As Christ said, there is no greater love.

    But you keep telling me that America is not and must not be a Christian country. What’s all the Jesus-talk all of a sudden?

    Every right-thinking American should be honored to be able to call Mr. Monsoor an American.

    Why do liberals always insist on describing themselves as “right-thinking”? As opposed to, you know, making arguments to show their positions are actually right.

    Let me show you how you sound.

    As a right-thinking American, I can only shake my head in sorrow as you continue to insist that “freedom” is an American trait.

    There, don’t you find that persuasive? Now that I’ve described my side as that held by “right-thinking” people, I’m sure you will capitulate forthwith.

    Subotai (eed222)

  113. “That still does not address my question about your statement about people being “equal in every way.”

    I’m not sure I understand your question then.”

    Subotai – You wrote the words below. I assume you had a purpose for writing them. All I am doing is asking you to explain your own words. It’s simple.

    “there is a dogmatic insistence that all people are equal in every way”

    The above sounds like a very progressive ideal to me and is behind the concepts of things like structural racism, which says unless we have equal outcomes, there must be embedded racism in the system even though we cannot identify it.

    I believe people, as opposed to groups, have inherently different abilities, intellectually, mechanically, physically, etc. and that there is no real way to ensure equality of outcome without discrimination and that equality of outcome is not necessarily a worthwhile goal. To me it’s the same as when progressives whine about unequal income distribution – who determined that is an inherently a bad thing?

    daleyrocks (940075)

  114. But you keep telling me that America is not and must not be a Christian country.

    Can you link to this? I think you’re a liar. I think AW has no problem with Americans worshiping Christ and having Christian values, but thinks it shouldn’t be forced by idiots upon us… in fact, he probably think requiring this kind of thing actually hinders the full freedom Americans have to consider many religions and still choose Jesus.

    Show me where he said America must not be Christian, please. Like your claims about the LA Times being backed up everywhere, I think you’re just making stuff up.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  115. Sub

    So, let’s be perfectly clear. You would not be proud to call Michael Monsoor, who threw himself on a grenade to save his fellow SEALs, an American?

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  116. And also, Aaron showed you were dead wrong on the LA Times’s accuracy.

    You keep repeating that, and I keep asking you to tell me how, exactly, his story contradicted “the LA Times accuracy”. Is it actually your case that Netanyahu never said:

    On the one hand, this problem is a humanitarian problem. We all feel and understand the hearts of children. But on the other hand, there are Zionist considerations and ensuring the Jewish character of the state of Israel.

    We don’t want to create an incentive for the inflow of hundreds of thousands of illegal migrant workers.

    If so, why do you believe that?

    I’ll keep asking till you answer. So fess up.

    Subotai (eed222)

  117. Hell yes this is supposed to be a serious question! Explain why race matters so much to you!

    Hell yes this so supposed to be a serious question! Explain why politic matters so much to you!
    Out with it! What are you hiding? What deep sinister secret is hidden behind your refusal to answer my questions?

    You are damn well guilty until you can prove your innocence to ME, the Lord High Inquisitor!

    Subotai (eed222)

  118. Sub, you’ll keep asking a question?

    Why don’t you answer my question, first?

    Because you’re a coward?

    Why does it matter what race is? You insist it matters, but don’t say why?

    I’ll keep asking, too. Unlike your ad hoc question, insisting the LA Times story is reputable if a single quote is right (you know this is dishonest), I’m asking a question meant to get to the heart of the matter.

    Just fess up? to what?

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  119. Show me where he said America must not be Christian

    Ask him. He’s seems willing to to expound on his beliefs at interminable length.

    His opinion on Christianity is one of my areas of disagreement with him.

    Subotai (eed222)

  120. Dustin

    yeah, I have said (and believed) pretty much what you said. America is and always has been a country chock full of christians. somewhere between 80-95% of us have been pretty much steadily christian throughout our history.

    But we have no religious test on citizenship.

    And I as a Christian feel very happy praising Moonsoor in Christian terms. i am a private citizen. i am entitled. and bluntly i was tweaking subby’s alleged christianity. personally his attitude toward even arab christians doesn’t strike me as particularly christian.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  121. Subotai, you made a nasty personal slur against Aaron, I asked you to back it up, and you insist I should just ‘ask him’.

    No, I’m asking you to back up your claims.

    Aaron proved the LA Time story was largely wrong. You replied with an ad hoc and stupid defense. I asked you why race matters, and you cowardly turned tail. I asked you to prove Aaron said the USA “Must” not be Christian, and you turned tail and fled.

    You may think you’re a patriot, but you’re not a patriot of the actual USA or her real values. It’s just that your fantasy USA, the enemy of the real one, shared the real one’s name.

    You belong in Europe. It’s a shame you’re white, because there are many better Arab countries with your attitude on defining and constraining a people. What actually matters about those backwards places isn’t the olive skin or the minarets, but the freedom. You would get it, and love Arab Americans like Monsoor, if you were a patriot like me.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  122. again subby, one question.

    would you, or would you not be proud to call Michael Monsoor an American?

    Let’s us quote from President Bush when awarding the medal:

    Perhaps the greatest tribute to Mike’s life is the way different service members all across the world responded to his death. Army soldiers in Ramadi hosted a memorial service for the valiant man who had fought beside them. Iraqi Army scouts — whom Mike helped train — lowered their flag, and sent it to his parents. Nearly every SEAL on the West Coast turned out for Mike’s funeral in California. As the SEALs filed past the casket, they removed their golden tridents from their uniforms, pressed them onto the walls of the coffin. The procession went on nearly half an hour. And when it was all over, the simple wooden coffin had become a gold-plated memorial to a hero who will never be forgotten.

    > …

    > Mr. and Mrs. Monsoor: America owes you a debt that can never be repaid. This nation will always cherish the memory of your son. We will not let his life go in vain. And this nation will always honor the sacrifice he made. May God comfort you. May God bless America.

    And you don’t think a man like that is “kosher” simply because of something beyond his control, the fact that arabic blood runs through his veins.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  123. Unlike your ad hoc question, insisting the LA Times story is reputable if a single quote is right ..

    You’re talking gibberish. I cited a person saying X. You announced the story was not accurate. I asked you in what way it was inaccurate. And now you want to downplay the importance of the whole matter, though you thought it significant as long as you believed Aaron had refuted me.

    Because you’re a coward?

    No, you’re a coward!

    Get back to me if you become capable of interacting on a non-schoolyard level.

    Subotai (eed222)

  124. would you, or would you not be proud to call Michael Monsoor an American?

    You must not be. After all, you were calling him an “Arabic Christian” just a little while ago. Not an American. In fact you still have not called him an American.

    As long as we’re playing “gotcha”, Aaron, you’ll find I can play as well as you.

    you don’t think a man like that is “kosher”

    I’m fairly confident that he never thought of himself as “kosher”.

    Subotai (eed222)

  125. I am still waiting to hear exactly which of my views were so offensive, subotai.

    JD (3dc31c)

  126. “you were calling him an “Arabic Christian” just a little while ago”

    Subotai – I had no problem with A.W. describing Monsoor’s ancestry.

    I suggest you stop digging unless you begin answering the questions addressed to you. You have pretty much beclowned yourself on this thread today.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  127. Because you’re a coward?

    No, you’re a coward!

    Get back to me if you become capable of interacting on a non-schoolyard level.

    Comment by Subotai

    Why does it matter if someone is white or not, Subotai?

    You refuse to answer this question, over and over and over and over.

    I think the way you interacted with Aaron, to make up lies about him, was cowardly, and I think your insistence on something you refuse to explain is also cowardly.

    This isn’t a schoolyard taunt. I really do call you out for cowardice. If you’re happy to look like a complete jackass, which you apparently are, that’s your business. No doubt, in person, you would treat me with respect. Your kind rarely seem to exist anywhere but the internet.

    You’re just not big on backing up your assertions, which are often personal attacks, despite your claims that it’s just horrifying you that someone insulted you.

    America doesn’t need white supremacists. It’s a pathetic reaction to racism from minorities, too.

    Like I said earlier, you’re just going to snort at the most obvious question anyone would ask of you, because you know you don’t have the firepower upstairs to handle it.

    why does it matter if someone isn’t white enough?

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  128. I’m sensing a kishnevi type meltdown.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  129. Subotai, you made a nasty personal slur against Aaron

    I correctly described his position. Only in leftyland does that constitute “a nasty personal slur”.

    Aaron proved the LA Time story was largely wrong.

    He did nothing of the sort. I’ve asked you repeatedly to explain this assertion of yours. Instead, you simply make it again.


    You may think you’re a patriot, but you’re not a patriot of the actual USA or her real values

    Thanks for making my point for me about how the “ideological nation” is the most evil concept ever to spring from the mind of man. You speak exactly the same tongue as any Fascist, communist, or Jacobin, all of whom saw membership in their “nations” as being contingent on allegiance and obedience to a particular ideology.

    Subotai (eed222)

  130. Subotai is a real American Hero.

    There’s nothing wrong with each race fighting it out on racial grounds, after all. What kind of country would you have if everyone melted together for the common good, opportunity, dream of freedom and prosperity? That’s nonsense! All mankind were not created equal! Where does that concept exist in American history? No where!!!

    No, it’s better to look at someone’s race! Subotai is doing well to even talk to some of you half breeds! Wheres your gratitude?

    Grand Kleagle Spirit Bobby Byrdie (b54cdc)

  131. You would not be proud to call Michael Monsoor, who threw himself on a grenade to save his fellow SEALs, an American?

    I would not be “proud” to call anyone an American. It’s not a thing which involves “pride”. It’s something which some people are, without regard to their behavior or their beliefs. (Your wishes to the contrary)

    Unlike you, Super Patriot, I’m ex-Army. I’d be proud to call Monsoor my comrade.

    None of which alters the initial matter which you’ve been trying to get away from – should we allow Muslims, or Arabs, or Chinese, or anybody else, to come and live in this country.

    The answer is, no, we should not.

    Subotai (eed222)

  132. should we allow Muslims, or Arabs, or Chinese, or anybody else, to come and live in this country.

    The answer is, no, we should not.

    AMEN BROTHA!!!!

    I’m glad you agree that there’s no reason to take pride in being American!!! You’re clearly the right man to lead us and identify values this country ought to have!

    Hey, what was your MOS, Subotai? Probably something totally awesome like 69 Whiksey (Lover of White)

    Grand Kleagle Spirit Bobby Byrdie (b54cdc)

  133. Free institutions are next to impossible in a country made up of different nationalities. Among a people without fellow-feeling, especially if they read and speak different languages, the united public opinion, necessary to the working of representative government, cannot exist.

    Grand Kleagle Spirit John Stuart Mill (eed222)

  134. AMEN BROTHA!!!!

    There’s a profound argument, demonstrating once again the superior brainpower of liberals.

    Subotai (eed222)

  135. should we allow Muslims, or Arabs, or Chinese, or anybody else, to come and live in this country.

    The answer is, no, we should not.

    And let me assist my ally. By “we” he means white people! All those millions of American citizens who are not white do not get to ‘allow’ anything, being less than real Americans!

    It’s really helpful to focus on this problem! No more Asian immigrants! All those darn Engineers and Doctors! Ugh.

    Grand Kleagle Spirit Bobby Byrdie (b54cdc)

  136. “There’s a profound argument, demonstrating once again the superior brainpower of liberals.

    Comment by Subotai ”

    You know who else has superior brainpower?

    White people!

    Grand Kleagle Spirit Bobby Byrdie (b54cdc)

  137. Subutai

    The reason why I mentioned Monsoor’s ancestry is because you said something nasty about Arab Christians and I happened to remember he was both Arab and Christian. You made ancestry relevant, not me. this is a perfect example of how racially conscious action justifies racial consciousness. Its no different than when Keith Olbermann claimed that there were no black people at the tea parties and at my blog I refuted him. I am allowed to notice race to refute racism, to say, “yes, there are, I even have pictures.”

    But you keep ducking and dodging. I can only conclude that the truth is you don’t want to tell us what you think because even you know it is so ugly it will turn off most of the people here.

    So you won’t say what is in your heart. That somehow Monsoor was not a proper American because of his ancestry, or at the very least you would have kept his ancestors from settling here.

    I don’t expect to persuade you of anything today. There is no masterful argument that will suddenly make you see the err of your ways. But I can hope that as time goes by you realize that it is wrong to denigrate all Americans of Arabic descent. Hopefully the memory of the sacrifice of Michael Monsoor and others will work on you until you realize you were wrong about him.

    You assert yourself to be a Christian. Then I suggest you remember a story from the bible. The Pharisees sent a scribe to report on Jesus and to be more or less a troll. So when Jesus said one should love your neighbor, this scribe asked who counted as one’s neighbor. So Jesus told him the story of the good Samaritan. I don’t have to recite much of it. A man was robbed on the road and left for dead. A priest came by and saw the man in that condition and hurried by. So did a levite. But the Samaritan stopped and helped the man.

    So Jesus asks the scribe, “who was a neighbor to the man who had been robbed?” The scribe correctly replied “The one who had mercy on him.”

    One thing that is lost to a lot of people reading the story two thousand years later was that the Samaritans were considered a hated ethnicity belonging to a heretic version of their faith. The average jew in that day hated the Samaritan and considered the term “good Samaritan” typically a contradiction in terms. So the story was intended to shock the audience. The priest/rabbi, expected to represent the virtue of their community, didn’t stop. Ditto with the Levite. So the shock was this person of a hated ethno-religious group was the “good” one.

    Jesus is telling you that religious differences and ethnicity is not what is important. It is what you do, and what is in your heart. Most in our military have given some in this war on terror. Michael Monsoor gave all. He deserves your love and acceptance, and it discredits you that you won’t give it.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  138. Grow some balls and post under your own handle, you Internet Hero.

    By “we” he means white people!

    How about “the American people”? I realize that the majority of them have committed the unforgivable sin of being white, but I hope you’ll still allow even those lowly creatures some voice.

    Subotai (eed222)

  139. Um, I’m pretty sure that people from Samaria and Nazareth are hardly white european Christian types, and so Subotai will wisely note that they shouldn’t be Americans either.

    It really does matter so much that America not allow any more of these lesser races. why? Subotai will explain it to you in 5,4,3,2…

    Grand Kleagle Spirit Bobby Byrdie (b54cdc)

  140. GK

    well maybe not, i but i am sure that jesus was blue eyed and blond haired. i mean all the paintings show him that way!

    btw, whoever you are, thank you for making me laugh.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  141. The reason why I mentioned Monsoor’s ancestry is because you said something nasty about Arab Christians

    Aaron, you lie a lot. An awful lot. I said I opposed letting Arab Christians (along with most of the rest of the world) emigrate to the US. Your definition of “nasty” seems to have been cribbed from the SPLC.

    But you keep ducking and dodging.

    You keep lying and lying. I have not ducked or dodged anything. I can think of all sorts of questions you have not answered, yet. But I’m not accusing you of refusing to answer them. Yet.


    you won’t say what is in your heart. That somehow Monsoor was not a proper American because of his ancestry, or at the very least you would have kept his ancestors from settling here.

    So, somehow you can correctly discerned that I “would have kept his ancestors from settling here”! Even though I supposedly keep “ducking and dodging”! Of course I’ve been trying to pound into your head the fact that I oppose immigration all through this thread. I guess I should be happy some of it finally sank in, even though you refuse to admit you learned it because I kept telling you!

    No, thanks to your own genius and insight you have somehow been able to learn “what is in my heart”, that most pressing of all questions to every good liberal, even while I’ve tried to cover it with a smoke screen. But the jigs up now! You’ve actually discovered that I’m opposed to immigration.

    There is no masterful argument that will suddenly make you see the err of your ways.

    I know this is a hard thing for a smug, arrogant liberal with delusions of moral grandeur to contemplate, but have you ever, in your wildest dreams, ever considered the possibility that you are wrong? Even as a thought experiment?

    One thing that is lost to a lot of people reading the story two thousand years later was that the Samaritans were considered a hated ethnicity belonging to a heretic version of their faith.

    How nice. The thing is, I don’t “hate” any ethnicity. I like them all. Your position is that of one who hates ethnicity. You are the one who thinks it meaningless and unimportant. In your world, all ethnic groups would bleed into one. (Except perhaps for Jews, for whom you would make an exception.)

    I like it that Koreans exist, that Japanese exist, that Russians exist, that Irish exist, that Americans exist. And your vision of the world is one in which they won’t exist. Because they cannot exist for very long if they occupy the same physical patch of ground.

    I’m a nationalist. I support nationalism for all nations.

    You are an anti-nationalist. Explicitly in the case of America. Implicitly in the case of the rest of the world. Because your “ideology” knows no boundaries.

    Subotai (eed222)

  142. All hail the Grand Kleagle!!!

    Icy Texan (4f3a8e)

  143. Anti-nationalism!!!!!!!

    Pure horror in my heart.

    Of course, some will be confused at Subotai complaining that someone else is anti-nationalist, when he said he wasn’t proud to be an American and no one else should be.

    I’m not, though. We’re simpatico. Simpatterico.

    Grand Kleagle Spirit Bobby Byrdie (b54cdc)

  144. Subotai will explain it to you in 5,4,3,2…

    Subotai will explain it to you as soon as your balls drop and you acquire enough testosterone to post under your regular handle. How’s that coming along, Pee Wee?

    Subotai (eed222)

  145. Of course, some will be confused at Subotai complaining that someone else is anti-nationalist, when he said he wasn’t proud to be an American

    Only “some” who were dropped repeatedly on their heads as a child, Pee Wee. Someone like you.

    Subotai (eed222)

  146. Subotai

    So spell it out. who else is excluded?

    All arabs, okay.

    You mentioned Syrians and Chinese, so you would exclude them too, right?

    How about Asians in general? Pacific islanders? What if they are from the same ethnic group as native Hawaiians, is that still verboten?

    And people of African descent? Should they be allowed to stay? Can more Immigrants of African descent come here?

    By the way, feel free instead to just tell me who you would let in. It might take less time.

    And answer me this. What do you do with the ones who are already here? Can they stay or are they all to be deported?

    And what about people who have mixed ancestry? How would you deal with that?

    Funny last time I asked you what ethnicities were allowed in America by your theory, you accused me of distortions, but hey its out isn’t it? So why not spell it out completely.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  147. Bobby – I would think about fitting him for a sheet right about now. IYKWIMAITTYD.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  148. I am curious if my wife and children would be proper Americans in Subotai’s world.

    JD (326b58)

  149. No matter how we feel about same-sex marriage, the exegesis for the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Genesis makes us uncomfortable. Why? Because what Adam and STEve did, according to the story, was sodomy–the mystery Saint Augustine almost solved 1600 years ago. (He thought the sin was penile/vaginal sex.) For more information google The First Scandal Adam and Eve. Then click, read, and click again.

    Robert Hagedorn (22931a)

  150. So spell it out. who else is excluded?

    Are you retarded? Seriously, are you?

    No matter how many times I tell you where I’m coming from, you keep repeating the same stupid questions over and over again.

    I would “exclude” everyone in the world outside the US. I think I’ve mentioned this about six or seven times by now.

    I’ve noticed that if I keep repeating things to you, eventually you do catch on. Even though you never admit you caught on from me telling you.


    By the way, feel free instead to just tell me who you would let in.

    For the last time, and I’m not going to tell you this again, I would not “let in” anyone.

    What do you do with the ones who are already here? Can they stay or are they all to be deported?

    Have I said anything, anything at all, which would have led even one as malicious and mendacious as you to infer that I suggested anyone be “deported”?

    I know you’re a crack internet researcher and all. I mean, the way you found that J Post thing was really something. So why don’t you take a brief pause from your relentless dishonesty and go track down where you think I said that.

    I’ll be here playing with Pee “Profiles in Courage” Wee. Will he finally discover his true identity? Stay tuned!

    Subotai (eed222)

  151. Well, let’s see: you’ve heard from daleyrocks, JD, & A.W. And I’m pretty much staying out of your fight. So, unless one of them is masquerading, who does that leave? Whom else do you argue with on a regular basis? Hmmm . . .

    Icy Texan (4f3a8e)

  152. He regularly argues with me, too, but I wouldn’t masquerade.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  153. I am curious if my wife and children would be proper Americans in Subotai’s world.

    You know, in all this, only one person has yet been told that they are not a “proper American”, and that person was me.

    So could you drama queens please pass the smelling salts under your noses, pick yourself up off the floor, change out of your soiled panties, and start paying just a teeny weeny itsy bitsy bit of attention to who is saying what?

    Subotai (eed222)

  154. I haven’t argued with you in ages, aphrael.

    We must do it again sometime. You’re a good deal more intellectually honest than Aaron.

    Subotai (eed222)

  155. “Well, let’s see: you’ve heard from daleyrocks, JD, & A.W.”

    Icy Texan – I never really fully engaged because I was told I was wandering into an argument already in progress. I was just disappointed Subotai chose to dodge statements he made in the thread.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  156. I never really fully engaged because I was told I was wandering into an argument already in progress.

    Come off it. I corrected you the first time you said that.


    I was just disappointed Subotai chose to dodge statements he made in the thread.

    It’s your lucky day. You get to be the first person to accuse me of that, and then back it up.

    Whenever I challenge someone for accusing me of “dodging”, they promptly dodge.

    Subotai (eed222)

  157. “The American left is a self-consciously racial movement. The America left is a self-consciously anti-white movement.”

    Bulldookey. The American left is an identity politics movement. They have a vested interest in keeping our society fractured so that they can cater to various “victim” groups at election time and ignore them otherwise

    I’m not seeing how what you said was any different from what I said.

    Subotai (eed222)

  158. I know, daleyrocks. And I’m really trying to confine myself to nailing the door shut on Chris’s faux-racist Moby spew.

    Icy Texan (4f3a8e)

  159. Subotai now claims he isn’t calling would be Chinese immigrants, etc, proper Americans.

    He plays word games, I guess, but anyone else can see that he’s saying Monsoor’s arab descendant should not have been permitted to immigrate, and therefore, he doesn’t see such races as American enough.

    American pride is about ideals, and in particular, loyalty to a document. That’s different from other nations. Subotai is, indeed, disloyal to my concept of America. I don’t need to ‘dodge’ this point the way Subotai dodges just about any direct question.

    Why do you care what race people are, Subotai? Why are only white people permitted to immigrate to the USA in your world (I realize you’ve dodged this too, but it’s the truth regardless)?

    When you say you aren’t proud to be American, and then say you think American immigration should be controlled on the basis of race, I say you’re disloyal to America.

    John Stuart Mill does not agree with you, btw. Once again, you conflated one issue with another.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  160. Subotai is way too worried about people’s breeding. Go to a dog show.

    Some inconvenient facts for you. Race is the prime determinant of elections in this country. Blacks vote consistently and overwhelmingly for the left wing of the Dem party.

    If the black vote somehow jumped from under ten to twenty percent of the total, that would be a bad thing for the sort of freedom Aaron likes. Because those extra voters would be overwhelmingly on the left.

    The same is true to a slightly lesser degree for Hispanics, Asians, and Jews.

    It is basically true that politics in America today pits a “white peoples party” against a “non-white peoples party”. I’m not asking anybody to like this. I am asking you to stop being an ostrich and face the world as it actually is rather than as how you’d like it to be.

    It is not and cannot be a matter of indifference to any of us what the demographic makeup of America is. As Grand Kleagle Spirit Mark Steyn said, “Demography is destiny”. Now doubt he whipped his slave right after saying that.

    We can engage in all the fun Aaron-style thought experiments we like, such as “It would make no difference if the country was populated by Arab Muslims, as long as they were imbued with the spirit of the Founders”.

    But here in the concrete real world, we have to come to grips with the fact that the Arab world does not have a few hundred million people who think like George Washington. Here in the real world, demography is destiny. Here in the real world, the sort of freedom we all would like to see is closely tied to race and ethnicity. Here in the real world, a minority white America is going to be an America so far left that Obama would appear a conservative in it.

    And no amount of telling me what a great person your black or Asian wife is will alter that.

    Subotai (eed222)

  161. Subotai now claims he isn’t calling would be Chinese immigrants, etc, proper Americans.

    I’m calling any and all “would-be” immigrants improper Americans. I’m calling them non-Americans. Can I make that any clearer?

    He plays word games, I guess, but anyone else can see that he’s saying Monsoor’s arab descendant should not have been permitted to immigrate

    You mean his ancestors, I assume. I have made no comment at all about anyone’s ancestors. Please confine yourself to arguing with the things I actually say rather than with the products of your own imagination.

    Why do you care what race people are, Subotai?

    See my 4:01. Then tell me why you do not care.

    I don’t need to ‘dodge’ this point the way Subotai dodges just about any direct question.

    It’s odd that the only person speaking clearly here keeps getting accused of “dodging”.I’m coming to the conclusion that that what you really mean is “Subotai, you’re not saying the things that I know you really think, so I’ll keep accusing you of dodging until you say them”.

    Here’s a crazy idea – why don’t you just engage with the things I actually do say?

    John Stuart Mill does not agree with you, btw

    No doubt you’ll be explaining to me why not at a later stage. He ha.

    Subotai (eed222)

  162. Subotai, to clarify: are you saying we should not allow any immigration whatsoever, or that we should only allow immigration from certain countries?

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  163. aph, I oppose any immigration whatsoever, from whatever country, for whatever reason.

    Subotai (eed222)

  164. It’s funny how he spends so much energy telling everyone they are wrong, but never has the guts to just say what he really thinks.

    to Subotai, the USA is a White Christian nation, and our immigration policy should reflect that. He won’t own it, now.

    Oh well. Nothing he said can be taken seriously, anyway. The USA long ago rejected his views, and there is nothing he can do about it. He might as well argue against the moon.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  165. Subotai: Thank you.

    I think that’s particularly harsh to US citizens who fall in love with, and marry, foreign citizens.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  166. never has the guts to just say what he really thinks

    So, what do I “really think”?

    And if I never have the guts to say “it”, how do you know what “it” is?

    BYW, isn’t it a bit funny for one anonymous internet commenter to accuse another anonymous internet commenter of being gutless?

    Especially when I keep telling you what I think in clear and unambiguous terms.

    But then, the most important thing for you is moral posturing. You’ve found your niche, dude.

    Subotai (eed222)

  167. “It’s your lucky day. You get to be the first person to accuse me of that, and then back it up.”

    Subotai – Here’s the third time I asked you to explain your own words:

    #

    “That still does not address my question about your statement about people being “equal in every way.”

    I’m not sure I understand your question then.”

    Subotai – You wrote the words below. I assume you had a purpose for writing them. All I am doing is asking you to explain your own words. It’s simple.

    “there is a dogmatic insistence that all people are equal in every way”

    The above sounds like a very progressive ideal to me and is behind the concepts of things like structural racism, which says unless we have equal outcomes, there must be embedded racism in the system even though we cannot identify it.

    I believe people, as opposed to groups, have inherently different abilities, intellectually, mechanically, physically, etc. and that there is no real way to ensure equality of outcome without discrimination and that equality of outcome is not necessarily a worthwhile goal. To me it’s the same as when progressives whine about unequal income distribution – who determined that is an inherently a bad thing?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 8/17/2010 @ 12:14 pm

    daleyrocks (940075)

  168. I think that’s particularly harsh to US citizens who fall in love with, and marry, foreign citizens.

    It is not supposed to be the purpose of US immigration policy to facilitate the love lives of individual people.

    You know, there is no immutable law of the universe saying that the loving couple MUST live in America. Have you considered the possibility that they might live in the country of the non-American spouse?

    Subotai (eed222)

  169. Subotai is not down with the brown or mellow with the yellow.

    Call the PC police.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  170. “I’m not seeing how what you said was any different from what I said.

    Comment by Subotai — 8/17/2010 @ 3:35 pm”

    You seem to want to keep the Democrat party in the victimhood and identity politics business while I want to make it obsolete. That is the difference.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  171. Sub

    > If the black vote somehow jumped from under ten to twenty percent of the total, that would be a bad thing for the sort of freedom Aaron likes.

    So, um, you are telling you don’t like the 15th amendment now…

    > But here in the concrete real world, we have to come to grips with the fact that the Arab world does not have a few hundred million people who think like George Washingt

    The solution then is to reform the Islamic world, not hunker down and wait for it to blow over.

    > I’m calling any and all “would-be” immigrants improper Americans. I’m calling them non-Americans. Can I make that any clearer?

    Well, last time I checked you were not writing your posts in Cherokoee.

    By the way, I am sure your ancestors can at least trace their heritage to good old-fashioned Americans going back to the revolution, right?

    > I have made no comment at all about anyone’s ancestors.

    You said you didn’t want any arabs to come here. monsoor was arab. So yes, you said his ancestors shouldn’t have come here.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (f97997)

  172. You said you didn’t want any arabs to come here. monsoor was arab. So yes, you said his ancestors shouldn’t have come here.

    Comment by Aaron Worthing (A.W.)

    He’ll deny this, even though your reasoning is concrete and even banal.

    He refused to say he was proud of Monsoor, relying on a bizarre ‘no one should be proud of any American’ ad hoc line before bashing your anti-nationalism, but the reality is, in his America, Monsoors do not get to exist. Neither do I. JD’s family, though I don’t know anything about them, may not get to exist either.

    All I want to know is why. I understand he insists this should be, but why does it matter? If you want to restrict our nation to one language, I’m on board (as is Mill). If you want to restrict immigration to people who hold value our constitution, that’s cool too, but why on earth would you restrict it by race?

    Race doesn’t matter at all. Monsoor proved it, not that it wasn’t proven ages ago.

    Immigrants are supposed to swear allegiance to our constitution… Subotai would have to lie to make it in.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  173. Let’s not forget that we are in this recession in large part because banks, in part due to government pressure, lent money to minorities that couldn’t pay them back. In fact, even when things like income and credit score are controlled for blacks and mestizos were much more likely to default than whites. They will never assimilate into the white middle class because they lack the brain power to do so.

    Chris (18e9a0)

  174. “They will never assimilate into the white middle class because they lack the brain power to do so.”

    Chris – I like the turn of your jib. Why couldn’t I have had a son more like you rather than that nincompoop who keeps prattling on about the earth burning up? Do you have a newsletter to which I can subscribe?

    Zonbie Al Gore, Sr. (940075)

  175. > They will never assimilate

    I beg to differ. Resistance is futile. Your uniqueness will be assimilated… into my boobs.

    7 of 9 (f97997)

  176. Chris is just an ignorant racist.

    Subotai is more articulate, but no less vile. It is great to know that in his eyes, no immigration legal or otherwise should be tolerated, and my wife and kids are improper Americans.

    JD (3dc31c)

  177. JD

    But hey, don’t take it personally, right? He just hates your family and the love of your life and would like to force you to choose between your family and your country.

    Aaron Worthing (f97997)

  178. Suppose you woke up tomorrow morning and that while you slept, the country had changed. It is now 40% black, 40% Hispanic, and 20% white.

    Do you think –

    a) “No big deal. Race does not matter to me. I don’t see why this should change anything, I still expect the GOP to win back the House in November”.

    or (b) “Well, that’s that. The House is gone. We’ll never roll back Obamacare now”.

    One of these responses is intelligent. The other is not. And anybody with the IQ of a turnip should be able to tell which is which.

    Subotai (eed222)

  179. it is great to know that in his eyes, no immigration legal or otherwise should be tolerated, and my wife and kids are improper Americans.

    One of those things I actually said. The other one came out your ass. Wipe it and wash your hands.

    Subotai (eed222)

  180. You said you didn’t want any arabs to come here. monsoor was arab. So yes, you said his ancestors shouldn’t have come here.

    Remind me to explain past and present tense to you sometime. What sort of losers are they letting through law school? You must have a verbal SAT of 11.

    Subotai (eed222)

  181. Well, last time I checked you were not writing your posts in Cherokoee.

    Then there must be some other explanation for your total inability to understand what I say.

    I am sure your ancestors can at least trace their heritage to good old-fashioned Americans going back to the revolution, right?

    Nope.

    Any other idiotic questions? What about “Have you stopped beating your wife?” You have not asked that in a while.

    Subotai (eed222)

  182. Yup, anybody with the IQ of a turnip would know that the color of one’s skin should not determine how they are viewed.

    Did you, or did you not say

    I’m calling any and all “would-be” immigrants improper Americans. I’m calling them non-Americans.

    I guess you are trying to make some kind of distinction here, though you later go on to question whether or not people should choose to move out of the country.

    JD (3dc31c)

  183. I’m calling any and all “would-be” immigrants improper Americans. I’m calling them non-Americans.

    Looks familiar.

    Why? Are you going to cry because I mentioned the fact that non-Americans are …. what’s the term … non-frickin-American?

    If I say that Joe Smith, who currently lives in England but would like to live in America, is not in fact an American, what devastating come back do you have lined up?

    Honestly, you’ve raving here. The quality of the thinking on display would shame imdw, wherever he is.

    Somebody mentions that people who are not Americans are non-Americans, and the reaction from the masses here is “Jawohl, mein herr”. I’d expect to see sharper commenters at the Daily Kos. Hell, I’d expect to see sharper commenters among the readership of Cannabis Culture.

    Subotai (eed222)

  184. 176.Chris is just an ignorant racist

    — On the contrary, JD, I’m certain that he knows exactly how much of a racist he is. And, if he’s not just keeping up the Moby act as long as possible, he could be our first neo-Nazi plaything.

    Icy Texan (4f3a8e)

  185. anybody with the IQ of a turnip would know that the color of one’s skin should not determine how they are viewed.

    So, all flam-flam and faux-liberal outrage aside, why don’t you address the point?

    If tomorrow the population of the US was, say, 80% non-white, what consequences do you expect for a) the GOP, b) the size of government, c) the cause of freedom, d) the WOT.

    You’re obviously enjoying spluttering indignantly, and I hate to interrupt you, but perhaps at some point you could address the real world consequences of your position.

    Or is your best response going to be, “Why, its racist to even ask that question!”

    Subotai (eed222)

  186. Subby

    > Suppose you woke up tomorrow morning and that while you slept, the country had changed. It is now 40% black, 40% Hispanic, and 20% white.
    Do you think –

    I would go “holy shit, did someone teleport those people here? Or is there a mysterious race-changing ray?”

    > Well, that’s that. The House is gone. We’ll never roll back Obamacare now

    The mistake you keep making is you fail to understand that there are reasons why minorities vote democratic. Now some of it is gimme, gimme, gimme. But a lot of it is, because of… ASSHOLES LIKE YOU.

    Assholes like you that make conservatives look bad and ignorant. I mean besides telling me my wife shouldn’t be allowed to be here, telling J.D. his wife and children shouldn’t be here, that is what pisses me off. I was there in Washington D.C. in March to protest obamacare with the tea party. I came home to hear those asshole congressmen lie and say that people standing near them shouted the word “n—-r.” I have endured these false allegations of bigotry.

    But here you are, asshole, here you are making the same connection. Only a majority white country can defeat obamacare, according to you. Why don’t you go watch Olbermann, because you just fucking verified his thesis you fucking idiot.

    Do me a favor asshole. Stay off my side.

    > Remind me to explain past and present tense to you sometime.

    Oh so back when his ancestors came, his people were not a threat to the republic, but today, gosh. And indeed apparently your ancestors were not a threat to the republic, but I guess they could be today, right?

    *Rolls eyes.*

    And what if you decide that Arabic Americans are breeding too fast compared to “white” people (funny I though arabs were white, silly me, but admittedly I gave it little thought because fundamentally didn’t care). What will you do then?

    Aaron Worthing (f97997)

  187. You really are ignorant. Can someone born in Australia ever immigrate and become an American in your eyes? Ethiopia? Germany? South Africa? Does your answer depend on the skin color?

    There would probably be consequences, but that would never happen overnight. And, you seem to think non-white people are incapable of thought whereas white people are.

    Every time you get called out on your objectively racist statements, you either argue semantics of a tangential point, or run around with the goal posts.

    JD (3dc31c)

  188. I am trying to get you to clarify your position. If it is unclear, it is likely due to a combination of me not following the intricate nuance of your positions, and your general churlishness.

    JD (3dc31c)

  189. “If tomorrow the population of the US was, say, 80% non-white”

    Subotai – Would you a)commit suicide, b)emigrate, or c) assimilate.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  190. I am trying to get you to clarify your position.

    I am trying to get you to clarify your position.

    Whatever you may think, I’m not on trial and you are not the prosecutor. So the way this works is, if you want me to keep answering your questions, you start answering some of mine from time to time.

    You can start with the question I asked in 185.

    Subotai (eed222)

  191. Every time you get called out on your objectively racist statements

    your general churlishness.

    Has it ever dawned on you that you look a bit absurd when you go about spewing venom at people while complaining about their demeanor?

    That aside, what “objectively racist statements” do you think I’ve made?

    Subotai (eed222)

  192. Subotai – Would you a)commit suicide, b)emigrate, or c) assimilate.

    Comment by daleyrocks

    Yes, you can answer the questions too. Question 185. Come on, no more ducking and dodging! It’s time your true self was revealed!

    Honestly, do you guys have any idea how dweebish you come across? How effeminate?

    Subotai (eed222)

  193. I have hard edges, no doubt. However, I do not think that it is appropriate to judge people based on the color of their skin, or what country they are from. I do not live in fear of a non-white majority in this country. I am not racist. I understand why it is difficult when people call you out on that, but there it is.

    JD (3dc31c)

  194. what “objectively racist statements” do you think I’ve made?

    Do you read what you write? Okay, from here on out, let’s make a deal. Whenever you write something, at least one of us has to pay attention to what your are writing.

    JD (3dc31c)

  195. If tomorrow the population of the US was, say, 80% non-white, what consequences do you expect for a) the GOP, b) the size of government, c) the cause of freedom, d) the WOT.

    That would obviously have a lot of variables that your formulation does not account for. I do not care what happens to the GOP. If you are a Team R cheerleader, more power to you. The size of the government grows wildly under Dems, and only slower under Team R, so we just arrive at the same place slower. The cause of freedom? The WOT? I guess that depends on where all of the evil brown and black and yellow and polka dotted people come from.

    JD (3dc31c)

  196. I do not think that it is appropriate to judge people based on the color of their skin, or what country they are from. I do not live in fear of a non-white majority in this country. I am not racist.

    Those are four different issues which you wrapped up into one and tied with a bow.

    And you still have not attempted to respond to my question. What would be the consequences of America becoming a non-white country? I don’t care about your emotional state. It’s not important whether you “live in fear” or not.

    I’m asking you to take off your emotions cap, put on your thinking cap and project current trends forward in time. What does an America with a bigger and bigger non-white percentage of the population look like?

    The answer has nothing to do with whether you are a “racist” or not. So go ahead, take a stab at answering.

    Subotai (eed222)

  197. So, Subotai starts out by refuting some of Chris’s idiocy:
    there is no IQ test for citizenship rights. The races are equal before the law, if not in collage(sic) graduation rates.
    The idea that everyone is equally productive is a Marxist idea. “One man, one vote” is not.
    Then follows it with the off-topic post about Israel, and then launches this turd to see if it floats:
    Everyone knows that the USA used to be [ethnocentric], and will be again.
    — Which brings up the question: When will that time be? Is it when “three fifths of all other persons” is once again the law of the land?

    Icy Texan (4f3a8e)

  198. Let’s see, I bet a non-white majority US would look like the current US, with a little more tan.

    JD (3dc31c)

  199. aphrael – If you are still reading, am I being unfair in my reading of the positions he has laid out?

    JD (3dc31c)

  200. So, Subotai starts out

    So, which of those are you here to talk about? Or are you just here because you’re bored and looking for action?

    the off-topic post about Israel

    It’s THE topic of this thread. The nature of nations – ethnostates, or not?

    Frankly I’m disgusted at all of you for claiming that Israel is a horrible racist state.

    Yeah, you didn’t actually say that. But that’s just because your standards are infinitely flexible. If y’all believe even a tiny fraction of the bilge you have been directing my way, you must condemn Israel. After all, it’s my “evil” ideas made concrete.

    Subotai (eed222)

  201. I bet a non-white majority US would look like the current US, with a little more tan.

    Stop with the games. I asked you specific areas.

    If tomorrow the population of the US was, say, 80% non-white, what consequences do you expect for a) the GOP, b) the size of government, c) the cause of freedom, d) the WOT.

    Respond, please.

    Subotai (eed222)

  202. I am not “ignorant” but the race denialists are. I have read a multitude of information from reputable sources which shows a) there is an iq gap of about one standard deviation between blacks and whites b) socioeconomic status does not account for the gap c) the gap only closed slightly last century and that was largely due to hospital desegregation in the south and reflected a drop in the absolute lowest performers, not an overall rise in achievement d) wealthy black students do worse on sats than poor white students e) africans had no significant achievements before whitey showed up or afterwords. Do you dispute any of this?

    Chris (38a58e)

  203. I already answered you above, you just chose not to read. Deep breaths. Try again.

    JD (3dc31c)

  204. I have read a multitude of information from reputable sources which shows a) there is an iq gap of about one standard deviation between blacks and white

    None of which is very important politically. Is it?

    Subotai (eed222)

  205. “It’s odd that the only person speaking clearly here keeps getting accused of “dodging”.”

    “Has it ever dawned on you that you look a bit absurd when you go about spewing venom at people while complaining about their demeanor?”

    “Honestly, do you guys have any idea how dweebish you come across? How effeminate?”

    Plus, the always effective debating tactic – I demand you answer my bizarrely remote hypothetical!!!!11ty!!!!!

    daleyrocks (940075)

  206. Did I step through a wormhole and land in Sen Byrd’s living room?

    JD (3dc31c)

  207. Subotai – If tomorrow the population of the US was, say, 100% white, what consequences do you expect for a) the GOP, b) the size of government, c) the cause of freedom, d) the WOT.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  208. KKK, which Chris seems to like, was built as a Democrat terrorist organization.

    The right for blacks to be citizens, to vote, to hold office was fought tooth-and-nail by Democrats.

    The right for women to vote was fought tooth-and-nail by Democrats.

    Chris wants to refuse my grandson the right to vote once he reaches age because my grandson is noticeably mixed-race. Not to mention I’m not fully caucasian myself.

    Chris wants to refuse my daughter the right to vote even though she is a sergeant in the US Army, protecting Chris’ right to be a racist, sexist pig of a moby.

    Chris, just admit it already. You are no conservative. You are no libertarian. But you are, indeed, a poorly trained and poorly educated moby.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  209. I do not care what happens to the GOP.

    Fair enough.

    If you are a Team R cheerleader, more power to you.

    I’m not a Team R cheerleader. I am a Team Conservative cheerleader though.

    The size of the government grows wildly under Dems, and only slower under Team R, so we just arrive at the same place slower.

    Well, you’re honest. You’ve given up hope, if you ever had any, of curbing the government. If you do that I guess worrying about whether different races like you is as good an agenda as any.

    The cause of freedom? The WOT? I guess that depends on where all of the evil brown and black and yellow and polka dotted people come from.

    I guess so. That being the case, I’d expect some degree of interest from you on the matter of where they come from. And how many come.

    But for some reason, I’m not seeing it.

    Subotai (eed222)

  210. If we MUST condemn any country that is different from the USA . . . then we would be condemning EVERY other country; no? And why should we do that?

    It’s THE topic of this thread. The nature of nations – ethnostates, or not?
    — It is? I thought it was the Ninth Circuit staying same-sex marriages until December, but I could be wrong. After all, you do have a claim for having successfully thread-jacked the topic. Congratulations.

    Icy Texan (4f3a8e)

  211. Dweebish? Effeminate? From Subotai? That, I did not expect. Subotai, you’ve really fallen off the turnip truck this time, conking yourself in your own turnip.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  212. Subotai – If tomorrow the Virgin Mary were discovered living on the Moon would Mexicans stop trying to illegally cross into the United States and would conservatives permanently retake the House in the Fall?

    daleyrocks (940075)

  213. I for one would like to congratulate you Subby.

    I mean it must be so hard to type with that hood on.

    You’re a racist, stubby. and you saying you are not one is about as ridiculous as Chris saying black people are dumber than white people, and then claiming we shouldn’t call him a racist. yes you both are, and can either 1) change that about yourself or 2) try to make us think its a good thing. But it is as inappropriate to pretend you are not a racist as it is for Judge Walker to pretend that the pairing of gender opposites is not in the traditional definition of marriage. (Hey, i related it back to the topic! gold star for me!).

    I won’t be able to show you the error of your ways. Apparently Michael Monsoor giving his life for his country–for our country–didn’t either. I hope in a more reflective time, you will some around, but i ain’t holding my breath.

    But i have lost any and all respect for you i ever had.

    Aaron Worthing (f97997)

  214. Seriously, Subotai, your sophistry is not doing your purported cause any good.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  215. the always effective debating tactic – I demand you answer my bizarrely remote hypothetical!

    God, I wish it were a “bizarrely remote hypothetical”.

    But as those of us familiar with politics know (this clearly excludes the typical commenter round these parts) America is projected to become a minority white country around the middle of the century, if current trends in immigration continue. That is, within the lifetimes of many reading here.

    So perhaps you can take a stab at responding to my not-in-the-least-bit-hypothetical question.

    Subotai (eed222)

  216. So perhaps you can take a stab at responding to my not-in-the-least-bit-hypothetical question.

    Let me try to help … you … out … … here …

    *snore*

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  217. I mean it must be so hard to type with that hood on.

    Ha ha.

    You know they say – a racist is a conservative who is winning an argument with a liberal.

    And man, are you ever an annoying and dishonest member of the liberal tribe.

    Subotai (eed222)

  218. That being the case, I’d expect some degree of interest from you on the matter of where they come from. And how many come.

    But for some reason, I’m not seeing it.

    You don’t want any immigration, by your own words. Where they were from would have to be pretty much meaningless since you want none, no?

    JD (3dc31c)

  219. Seriously, Subotai, your sophistry is not doing your purported cause any good.

    Perhaps you can cite me some examples of that alleged sophistry. You know, that ones that prompted you to make that remark.

    Subotai (eed222)

  220. You don’t want any immigration, by your own words. Where they were from would have to be pretty much meaningless since you want none, no?

    Of course. I’m asking you about your opinions, your desires, your vision for the country.

    You do have some, right? Other than “Everybody stop talking about race ’cause its racist”?

    Subotai (eed222)

  221. Comment number 204, Subotai. There are some examples, but not all, of your sophistry.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  222. I never said you should quit, in fact, my position would be quite the opposite. I like people to get all of their hate right out on the table. I am somewhere between your position and open borders.

    You never did answer my questions, which would only be polite, since I indulged yours.

    JD (3dc31c)

  223. John Hitchcock – Chris just wants attention IMHO. I don’t plan on giving him any.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  224. Sorry, Hitch – “sophistry” does not mean “insult”.

    A sophism is taken as a specious argument used for deceiving someone. It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong, or it might use difficult words and complicated sentences to intimidate the audience into agreeing, or it might appeal to the audience’s prejudices and emotions rather than logic; e.g., raising doubts towards the one asserting, rather than his assertion.

    Calling people Dweebish or effeminate is not sophistry.

    Here’s an instance of sophistry.

    I for one would like to congratulate you Subby.

    I mean it must be so hard to type with that hood on.

    Note the “appeal to the audience’s prejudices and emotions rather than logic”.

    Glad I could clear that up for you, big guy.

    Subotai (eed222)

  225. I’m part Irish immigrant, part Mexican immigrant, part Indian (who was here before all you white people got here). My sister-in-law is a Czech national who immigrated here. My grandson is part Italian immigrant (but that Italian part is heavily melanin enhanced and immigrated by choice in the 18th century).

    Any argument based on racial hegemony is bogus from the word go.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  226. I am getting no arguments here except emotional bs that liberals usually spew. Can you refute the facts I presented? If not, what is your justification for teaming up with liberals by saying race and gender don’t really matter?

    Chris (38a58e)

  227. I never said you should quit

    I never thought you said that.


    You never did answer my questions, which would only be polite, since I indulged yours.

    I looked back through your insults (not creative enough, try harder) but I did not see any questions from you to me. Feel free to ask again though.

    You also failed to answer one of mine. What “objectively racist statements” do you think I’ve made?

    Subotai (eed222)

  228. daley, I understand your position re Chris and I hold that position myself, but I have a different agenda than just smacking Chris down (which is easily done). The purpose of a moby is largely to discredit a blogsite. Merely ignoring the moby, which is a perfectly acceptable position to take, allows for the discrediting of the site by outsiders who use the moby for exactly that purpose; therefore, I chose to shine the light on the moby as further proof to the third party that that moby is, indeed, a moby and has no standing on this site.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  229. This is just a reichwing echo chamber where dissent is not tolerated.

    JD (3dc31c)

  230. For the record, Chris does not strike me as a moby. He’s a “human bio-diversity” or HBD guy, I’d say. They’re big into this IQ stuff.

    Subotai (eed222)

  231. April 8, 1865
    13th Amendment banning slavery passed by U.S. Senate with 100% Republican support, 63% Democrat opposition

    November 22, 1865
    Republicans denounce Democrat legislature of Mississippi for enacting “black codes,” which institutionalized racial discrimination

    April 9, 1866
    Republican Congress overrides Democrat President Johnson’s veto; Civil Rights Act of 1866, conferring rights of citizenship on African-Americans, becomes law

    May 10, 1866
    U.S. House passes Republicans’ 14th Amendment guaranteeing due process and equal protection of the laws to all citizens; 100% of Democrats vote no

    June 8, 1866
    U.S. Senate passes Republicans’ 14th Amendment guaranteeing due process and equal protection of the law to all citizens; 94% of Republicans vote yes and 100% of Democrats vote no

    That’s just a quick few examples for you, moby. Your racism is not now, nor has it ever been, a conservative position. The same goes for your sexism.

    And if you want the sourcing for the above, I already gave it to you up-thread, low-grade moby.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  232. All right, kids, that’s it for me tonight.

    Let’s do it again sometime!

    Subotai (eed222)

  233. So basically what you are saying is that I have to parrot leftist positions on race or else you automatically assume that I am a moby. I guess you think the great conservative scholar charles murray is a moby and william buckley was a moby when he defended segregation and referenced low black intelligence in the 1960s. I don’t care what you think I am, I only care about the facts proving low black and mestizo intelligence which have not been disputed effectively by anyone here.

    Chris (01434c)

  234. You’re a racist, stubby. and you saying you are not one is about as ridiculous as Chris saying black people are dumber than white people, and then claiming we shouldn’t call him a racist

    Actually, black people do have lower IQ’s on average than whites, who have lower IQ’s on average than Asians, etc. So I’m afraid Chris is on solid ground there. Unless you think it’s racist to say something which is true. And buddy, you strike me as exactly the sort of person who would think inconvenient truths are racist.

    Subotai (eed222)

  235. John Hitchcock – I understand your position as well.

    daleyrocks (940075)

  236. The Spanish word Mestizo originated circa 1582 from the Romance / Latin word mixticius, meaning mixed.

    Under the casta system of Spanish America and Spain, the term originally applied to the children resulting from the union of one European and one Amerindian parent or the children of two mestizo parents.[citation needed] During this era, a myriad of other terms including castizo (three-quarters European and one-quarter Amerindian), cuarterón de indio, and cholo (one-quarter European and three-quarters Amerindian), were in use to denote other individuals of European-Amerindian ancestry in ratios smaller or greater than the 50:50 of mestizos.[citation needed]

    In the early stages of racial intermingling in the Americas, if a child was born in wedlock, the child was considered and raised as a member of the prominent parent’s ethnicity (See Hyperdescent).[citation needed] Often, but only early on, the term “mestizo” was associated with illegitimacy; however, it evolved in the ensuing centuries.[citation needed] According to historians Michael C. Meyer and William L. Sherman, early in the 16th century Spanish colonial usage of the term, mestizo “was almost synonymous with bastard” (illegitimate child).[11]

    The term was created specifically for those people of the particular racial mixture of Amerindian and European who comprise much of the population of Latin America.[citation needed] The term is also used in other parts of the world, although with different meanings.[citation needed]

    Mestizos do not appear in large numbers in official censuses until the second half of the 17th century, when a sizable and stable community of mixed-race people with no claims to being either Amerindian or Spanish appeared, although, of course, a large population of biological mestizos had already existed for over a century in Mexico.[citation needed]

    Mestizos form the majority of the population in most of Latin America; however, it would be difficult to know with any reasonable “biological” precision how extensive the mestizo population is, except through genetic studies.[according to whom?] -[citation needed] Various censuses since colonial times have tracked the race of inhabitants of the Spanish American countries, but these statistics are only generally indicative of what could be considered biological race, since they really captured the “social” race of a person.[citation needed] A person’s legal racial classification in colonial Spanish America was closely tied to social status, wealth, culture and language use.[citation needed] Wealthy people paid to change or obscure their actual ancestry.[citation needed] Many indigenous people left their traditional villages and sought to be counted as mestizos to avoid tribute payments to the Spanish.[12] Many indigenous people, and sometimes those with partial African descent, were classified as mestizo if they spoke Spanish and lived as mestizos.[citation needed]

    The above from wiki. Notice all the “citation needed” stuff? Chris, you just showed your racism once again with your mixed-race hatred. By the “citation needed” standard of the wiki article on “mestizos” I am one, since I’m part euro, part Indian, part Mexican. Yet I dwarf you in intellectual debate. Go figure.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  237. Chris, are you a skin-head or a member of the Aryan Brotherhood?

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  238. ____________________________________________

    Let me if I understand this. On a conservative blog, disputing liberal myths about racial and gender equality is now “idiocy”? Comment by Chris — 8/17/2010 @ 5:51 am

    Since you mention “liberal” and conservative,” I’m far more interested in the way that leftist or rightist sentiments affect the decisionmaking abilities and common sense of people, regardless of their race, gender, ethnicity, religion, sexuality, etc.

    I’d take a truly conservative — or even truly centrist (certainly as that word could have been defined decades ago) — black female homosexual any day over a leftwing white male heterosexual (eg, a John Kerry, Al Gore). Of course, the percentage of black female homosexuals who leans right is so infinitesimal, that one could hold a party for them in a phone booth, with room to spare. But the point I make still stands.

    Mark (411533)

  239. Chris is indeed a low grade moby. Only nutcases or extremely generous people give him credit. I think he’s ridiculously transparent.

    And Subotai is also quite transparent. Most of us have noticed that he’s gone on and on whining specifically about things he exhibits. Insults, dodges, lies, etc. He nagged and whined about how we shouldn’t be proud to be Americans, and minutes later was moaning that there wasn’t enough nationalism. He’s projecting to the point where he thinks he has a smoke screen. Why even comment at all if he doesn’t want to communicate his real ideas, though?

    Anyway, it’s no surprise that someone who projects is now concerned with the IQs of the various races. Shame for him those tests are meant for individuals, just as our rights are.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  240. Damn, I missed most of the smackdown comments. JD finally woke up and decided to make some substantive criticisms (joking, joking), and damn.

    I’m happy to discuss this shit with someone willing to be a little more open about their views. But when some people know in their heart they better not be open about their views, it’s probably best that they follow that feeling.

    As John said, the democrats darkest and most evil acts are their fights to divide and deny rights. As Aaron said, it does our side no favors when assholes pretend the solution to creeping statism is white supremacy. Stay off our side, please.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  241. _____________________________________

    I have read a multitude of information from reputable sources which shows a) there is an iq gap of about one standard deviation between blacks and white

    I don’t think the ins and outs — or this or that — of IQ is what influences and paralyzes black America. It’s the lack of common sense and rational judgment in a large portion of that segment of society that represents its Achilles’ Heel.

    Moreover, the 8 years of the George W Bush White House reminds me of the many college-type intellectuals (virtually all of the left) who loved to claim that George W Bush wasn’t very smart. Would those same ivory-tower theorists be so quick to dismiss the intelligence of black America?! Hell, no! Therefore, it’s one’s preference for leftist or rightist bias that really is on display when it comes to such matters.

    And wouldn’t it be fascinating if a magic wand could be waved over black America and instead of it being 80- to 90-plus percent liberal/leftist and pro-Democrat-Party, it instead became conservative? So forget the importance of IQ. I bet if that ideological transformation occurred, both self-destructive and non-constructive behavior would start to peel away in a good part of the African-American community.

    Mark (411533)

  242. Chris, when did you take your ACT? Have you arrived at the point that you can take the ACT? What ACT score did you get? Do you realize the Aryan “race” is actually a mixed-breed?

    I took the ACT back in the early 1980s when the top score was 35, before they dumbed down the test and added a point, making the top score 36. I scored 34, 33, 29, 29, for a composite of 31, making my ACT score eligible for the most competitive of college entrance standards (and yet, I never studied for any test). I completely blew the ASVAB out of the water, scoring in the 97th percentile. I graduated in the top ten percent of my class while taking a myriad of honors courses. And yet, I’m a “mestizo.” I’m part of that group of people you hate, yet I’m more intelligent than are you.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  243. the idea that blacks should be lumped together and IQ tested is, in and of itself, racist. Not JD haha racist, but actual.

    I know a few brilliant blacks. I know a lot of moron blacks. Same applies to whites and asians, though most asians in the states self selected for ambition (they recently immigrated for opportunity). I lived in Asia for a while, and I know there are plenty of morons there.

    IQ tests may be a poor test, anyway. But more important is letting go of this lumping people together nonsense. If Subotai or Chris wanted to restrict immigrants to people with 110 IQ scores, that wouldn’t be incendiary or disgusting.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  244. Where did the moby Chris go? Did a mestizo shame him into running off with his tail between his legs?

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  245. ________________________________________

    Stripping away the rhetoric and games of one-upmanship, the following article appeared in today’s New York Times. It has to be noted that New York City is a hub — a nirvana, if you will — of egalitarian-feel-good, touchy-feely politics and all the lavish government spending and programming that goes with that:

    Two years ago, Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg and his schools chancellor, Joel I. Klein, testified before Congress about the city’s impressive progress in closing the gulf in performance between minority and white children. The gains were historic, all but unheard of in recent decades.

    “Over the past six years, we’ve done everything possible to narrow the achievement gap — and we have,” Mr. Bloomberg testified. “In some cases, we’ve reduced it by half.”

    “We are closing the shameful achievement gap faster than ever,” the mayor said again in 2009, as city reading scores — now acknowledged as the height of a test score bubble — showed nearly 70 percent of children had met state standards.

    When results from the 2010 tests, which state officials said presented a more accurate portrayal of students’ abilities, were released last month, they came as a blow to the legacy of the mayor and the chancellor, as passing rates dropped by more than 25 percentage points on most tests. But the most painful part might well have been the evaporation of one of their signature accomplishments: the closing of the racial achievement gap.

    Among the students in the city’s third through eighth grades, 40 percent of black students and 46 percent of Hispanic students met state standards in math, compared with 75 percent of white students and 82 percent of Asian students. In English, 33 percent of black students and 34 percent of Hispanic students are now proficient, compared with 64 percent among whites and Asians.

    “The claims were based on some bad information,” said Michael J. Petrilli, a vice president of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, a research group that studies education policy. “On achievement, the story in New York City is of some modest progress, but not the miracle that the mayor and the chancellor would like to claim.”

    Reducing racial gaps in educational performance has been a national preoccupation for decades. But after substantial progress in the 1970s and ’80s, the effort has largely stalled, except for a brief period from 1999 to 2004, where there were some gains, particularly in reading, according to a report released this month by the Educational Testing Service, which develops standardized tests used across the country.

    Mark (411533)

  246. Looks like perhaps I ran the racist Chris off, at least temporarily, with the mere use of facts.

    I’m “mestizo” and National Honor Society, scoring highly enough on the ACT to be able to enter even the most competitive of colleges (based on the ACT scoring). I scored in the 97th percentile on the ASVAB, meaning only 3 percent of the US population scored higher than me. I took college courses while in high school.

    My daughter is “mestiza” with a higher percentage of Indian heritage than myself. She, too, scored high enough on her ACT to pass the most stringent of college requirements. She, too, scored well above the 90th percentile on the ASVAB. And she graduated high school at the age of 16.

    And my grandson is half “mestizo” and half black.

    Both my daughter and I are Conservatives. Nobody with a lick of sense would even come close to considering me a moderate, much less a liberal, given my history of commenting here and elsewhere.

    And I have clearly outclassed the racist moby who uses the moniker “Chris.”

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  247. Chris is off determining whether or not low IQ white males should be allowed to vote.

    Icy Texan (f3f4df)

  248. Subby

    > You know they say – a racist is a conservative who is winning an argument with a liberal.

    Actually a racist is someone who judges a person not by the content of their character, but by the color of their skin.

    And its more than a little specious to call me a liberal, too. I mean it’s a funny definition of liberal when I can cite Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln and the constitution itself to directly support my position.

    I mean let’s see here. I support closing the border to illegal immigration. I support traditional marriage. I support free markets. I hate high taxes. I support following the original intent of the constitution. I oppose socialism in all its forms. I want the FCC outlawed except as a technical standards regulatory agency and maybe not even that. I believe global warming is a crock. I believe the massive government is due for a massive pruning. I believe the pledge of allegiance can contain the words “under God” and be said in our schools. I believe that religiously based morality is a valid basis for law. Yeah, I am such a liberal. /sarc

    > Note the “appeal to the audience’s prejudices and emotions rather than logic”.

    In which you mistake simple mockery for an argument.

    > Actually, black people do have lower IQ’s on average than whites, who have lower IQ’s on average than Asians, etc. So I’m afraid Chris is on solid ground there.

    Black people have lower IQ test scores, which as I pointed out to Chrissy, is not the same as IQ. The very studies the bell curve book cited actually prove this point beyond reasonable doubt.

    Chrissy

    > Can you refute the facts I presented?

    We already did.

    > or else you automatically assume that I am a moby.

    No, what made us not buy it was your speciousness. There was no argument, and indeed has been none. So naturally people doubted your sincerity. You got deep enough into it that I became convinced you are, as far as it is possible to tell, sincere. You are sincerely an idiot, but fwiw.

    > which have not been disputed effectively by anyone here.

    The fallibility of IQ scores as a measure of intelligence is made obvious by the very people the bell curve idiots cited.

    Icy

    > Chris is off determining whether or not low IQ white males should be allowed to vote.

    I am sure Chrissy will come down in favor of stupid white voting, if only out of self-interest.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  249. John, the fact that you or your family happen to be smart is irrelevant. The fact that there are a handful of smart mestizos, maybe 5 percent, does not alter the fact that 75 percent of mestizos are not as intelligent as the average white. You just happen to be fortunate enough to be on the far right of the mestizo bell curve.

    Chris (c1b645)

  250. Aaron, I responded to your objections earlier and you did not respond.

    Chris (c1b645)

  251. Chrissy

    you cannot rationally dispute that the trans racial adoption study proves that IQ scores do not always reflect real IQ. you are like a global warming idiot, claiming certainty on a subject that is too chaotic to ever claim certainty.

    either you get that or you don’t.

    And i believe i have responded to every stupid thing you have said.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  252. Dustin

    > IQ tests may be a poor test, anyway

    Well, this is far, far up thread, but the transracial adoption study actually proves that the scores are flawed. And having taken alot of IQ tests makes it pretty clear that the IQs are based on your knowledge of a certain culture. Take yourself out of that culture, and its less useful.

    For instance, one IQ test asked me what the book of Genesis was about. Later they asked me about the Koran. So notice that you are rewarded for very specific knowledge of the judeo-christian faith, but only very general knowledge of islam. I mean its my understanding that muslims acknowledge the new and old testiment as holy but flawed documents, but generally don’t read either. so if you are a muslim you’re at a disadvantage. But not if you are christian like me.

    Anyway, in the transracial adoption study they found that black children adopted by white parents did as well as their white counterparts in IQ tests at a young age. However as time went on, the scores slowly dropped until they tended to be average for african americans. the very fact the score changed is powerful evidence that environmental factors have a powerful influence on score. the bell curve idiots asserted that this was supposedly the real IQ of black people being asserted over time. but in fact the older you get the more environmental factors influence the outcome.

    I mean that is plain logic. when identical twins are born they are more identical than they are likely to be at 40. That is because twin A might have eaten better, studied harder than twin B. Maybe twin B even drank more and killed a few thousand brain cells, but A was perfectly sober. so next thing you know, A is getting into Yale Law School, and B is going to a school much further down the ranks.

    i think truthfully, however, that the main problem that african americans have these days isn’t racism, but the lingering psychological effects of racism. i am not saying racism is not a problem, just that it can be overcome. but if you believe you cannot succeed you are often defeated before you even try.

    Which is not a blaming thing. its more an attempt to diagnose the problem. but i know a guy who was born food stamp poor, jewish, had a full body disability so severe he literally needs help to turn the pages of a book, and literally the entire right side of his brain is doing nothing for him. Last i saw him, he was wheeling off to Harvard Law School. i know a woman who came to america from the Phillipines in the 1960’s and to this day speaks heavily accented english. in the 90’s she started a company with something like $16,000 and it has grown to an enterprise making more than $24 million. And there is me, who was born with three learning disabilities, faced such severe discrimination (not just failure to accommodate, but active discrimination) i ended up dropping out of high school. And today i am a graduate of Yale Law School and corporate counsel for a health care company. These kinds of stories tell me that in America you can really have alot of strikes against you and still be successful.

    Hopefully the mere fact that a black man has been president will reverse the destructive trend of pessimism i was talking about. as terrible as i think obambi is, there is that as a silver lining.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  253. So what you’re saying, Chris, is that I’m pretty smart for a half-breed. Well, I have news for you. You are NOT smarter than a fifth grader.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  254. Hopefully the mere fact that a black man has been president will reverse the destructive trend of pessimism i was talking about. as terrible as i think obambi is, there is that as a silver lining.

    I share your hope on this. Sadly, he’s becoming a failure of a president and I think he will lose his election handily, no matter who the GOP nominates, unless a strong third party effort spoils things. In that case, the pessimists will claim America didn’t give Obama a chance. And we all know Barack and Michelle will be promoting this idea.

    However, I think it’s wonderful to point to Obama’s initial election as proof that America is not nearly the horrible racist place many blacks I know think it is. As you pointed out before, it sucks that some assholes screw up the right’s messaging sometimes, but there’s little we can do about it. They are bacteria, resistant to the reason of MLK.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  255. Aaron, your interpretation of the trans racial adoption study is incredibly ignorant and was clearly pulled out of your ass because even professional race denialists who question the study admit the validity of iq scores. Even at age seven the adopted white kids had a 15 point advantage over blacks. The adopted white kids scores dropped, like the black scores, but despite the same environment their scores at age seventeen were still 17 points higher than the adopted blacks, or about one standard deviation.

    Chris (a30317)

  256. No, Chris, it’s not ignorant or pulled out of his ass. It’s kinda amazing you’d even say that, apart from the fact that you love to throw completely ridiculous things out there.

    I’d bet my house Aaron would top you on an IQ test, btw, not that I think it matters at all to this discussion. You are a moby, still.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  257. Chris

    > your interpretation of the trans racial adoption study is incredibly ignorant

    what is ignorant about pointing out that THE SCORES CHANGED. if its a measure of IQ uninfluenced by anything else, it shouldn’t change. but hey, maybe you can use a “nature trick” to “hide the decline.”

    > because even professional race denialists who question the study admit the validity of iq scores.

    Um, no they don’t. Feel free to call them idiots, too, but really buck o you come off as a guy who has read one flawed book and considers it gospel.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (e7d72e)

  258. There’s a profession called “race denialist”? Where do you get that degree from — Moby U?

    Icy Texan (a0decb)

  259. Chris – What is a professional race denialist? Can you give me some examples of people who fit that bill please?

    daleyrocks (940075)

  260. Aaron, you didn’t even read what I wrote about the white comparative group, which had the same environment yet higher iq scores from beginning to end. But I am not basing my beliefs based on this one study. I am basing them on iq scores that consistently show a gap not explained by economic factors, on sat scores which show a similar pattern, and on the regression to the mean phenomena which shows that the sibling of blacks of a certain iq have lower scores than the siblings of whites at the same iq. Add to all the fact that blacks are at the bottom of the heap no matter where they are, and they have contributed almost nothing, the conclusion is inescapable.

    Chris (d71a7a)

  261. The conclusion IS inescapable: you are a white supremicist idiot.

    Icy Texan (a0decb)

  262. Icy – Yet they seem oblivious as to why anyone might think that.

    JD (1ecb57)

  263. “supremacist” Gad! It must be that 1/16th mestizo in me that made me do that. I feel shame.

    Icy Texan (a0decb)

  264. The crazy thing is the “Aryan” race is actually a mixed-breed race. So, the Aryan Brotherhood seeks the rule of the pure mixed-breed.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)


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