Patterico's Pontifications

6/17/2010

When Should Cops Punch Girls?

Filed under: Crime — Jack Dunphy @ 9:48 am



[Guest post by Jack Dunphy]

A Seattle police officer is in hot water over dishing out a bit of the rough stuff to a teenage girl. I explain today at Pajamas Media. A sample:

So the question then becomes, if a cop is assaulted by someone of his own approximate proportions, how should that cop respond? Should he be circumscribed in that response, to his possible peril, merely because it is a woman or a girl who has assaulted him? Had it been me in that situation, I might not have hit Rosenthal in the face, but I surely would have hit her somewhere.

–Jack Dunphy

177 Responses to “When Should Cops Punch Girls?”

  1. I want to punch her too.

    gp (72be5d)

  2. Right or not, it certainly was effective. It took her out of the situation so that the officer could concentrate on arresting and cuffing the other woman. I think the punch was justified.

    Zoltan (f80707)

  3. Tazer, nightstick, punch to the face, whatever.

    You interfere with a police officer in the execution of his duty, you had better expect to end up on the ground first, and in jail shortly thereafter.

    Anything beyond that should call for deadly force.

    Anon 1:50 (ab0a05)

  4. You have to take some action to stun or shock the person and allow you to get control of the situation. A punch to face may work for that, I prefer to use a technique we were taught to use the knee to hit the strike point in the outside of the thigh.
    This allows you to have both hands on the subject in an attempt to hold and control them. You can not, obviously, use both hands to control the subject if you are punching them with one. It is difficult or impossible to control the subject with one hand if you are punching with the other.

    The knee technique also is nice as it looks a lot less awful on video but probably hurts more, and is more debilitating to the subject than a glancing blow to the face.

    (By the way I am not a Police Officer and situations like this are a major reason I never wanted to be one.)

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  5. I very much appreciate your thoughts. My oldest son is a police officer in Philly, and most confrontations are in between the compliant person and the one that pulls a gun and clearly warrants lethal force.

    I think it is to the officer’s advantage that the woman in question had broken free of another male trying to keep her away from such a confrontation.

    I’m not at all second guessing the officer, but I think, as you imply, that the image of a blow to the face provokes a visceral response, whereas other techniques to subdue a person, even though more painful and potentially dangerous, might not illicit the same objection from the public. But, the officer was still dealing with two prisoners and potentially more, and the public is still behind him.

    MD in Philly (5a98ff)

  6. she’s lucky all she got was punched….

    she attacked the cop, so in my book, she pretty much had anything she got coming.

    Specialist Haiku (fb8750)

  7. Greetings:

    This is just today’s spin of the “disproportionate force” wheel that we have so come to admire. Designated minority victim, white police officer, muy perfecto. All we need is the arrival of the travelling Reverends or perhaps even Gloria Allred.

    My dear departed mother had an expression she used to categorize those incidents where someone she loved got their comeuppance. You don’t hear it much anymore, but it went, “So, you got more than you thought you had bargained for.”

    11B40 (858d54)

  8. It looked to me like there was a real danger of the policeman being disarmed. Had she taken his gun because he did not hit her, these same people would be saying he was negligent and calling for his blood. He was trying to deal with a violent suspect, was being attacked by a large and aggressive woman, and surrounded by a potentially hostile crowd. I don’t see what he was supposed to do but take out the attacker and restrain the suspect as quickly as possible to stabilize the situation.

    Machinist (497786)

  9. I have to say, it’s pretty hard to deal with a situation like that. It’s easy to come up with many solutions in hindsight, when you aren’t in pain, or afraid of someone grabbing your gun.

    Of course he used more force than he absolutely needed. He’s a person who was in a really tough spot. He was also being battered. Someone who hits a cop in broad daylight could be extremely crazy and obviously is going to scare the heck out of any right thinking person in a fight with them.

    What if he had not punched her, and she had grabbed his gun and shot him?

    He goofed badly in punching her so effectively and in such a bad image type of spot as her face. His goof is forgivable and I hope the women both are in prison for years.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  10. Punch was justified and both should be arrested. The disrespect for an officer of the law is a direct result of obama’s unfortunate “police acted stupidly” remark. That statement acted as an enabler message to all hubrist filled blacks.Very problematic having this inexperienced community organizer sitting in the seat of power.His mode is to blackmail and threaten like a street thug.”Kick somebody’s ass”, yea that’s the right message coming out of the “whitehouse”. Blacks get the message then act out and dare a policeman to subdue them.
    With the numerous messages from Obama, Holder, Sheila Jackson, and other blacks that you can get a free pass from this administration just like the black panthers got, what else would you expect,other than it’s going to get worse before we have the chance to fundamentally right this ship for good.

    Buzz (113174)

  11. Anyone dumb enough to assault an officer (without reason) deserves whatever they get – Darwin’s theory in action.

    Dmac (3d61d9)

  12. Dustin – In the jurisdictions I have worked in charges of interfering with an officer, resisting arrest and even assault on an officer were regularly nolled. An incident like this that did not make the media (and most didn’t) would have resulted in at most a suspended sentance of a couple of months.

    I remember a case where a Police Officer on duty with us and I broke up a fight. While we were trying to figure out what was going on one of the perps (who was 16 but about 6′ 2″ and 190 pounds) sucker punched the cop and took off. Knocke d the officer to the ground and stunned him for a minute. He also resisted when he was caught after that. All charges but an Assault were nolled and he was sentenced to a suspended sentance.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  13. Buzz – I’ve worked in the Security field since Bush 41 was in office. This is nothing new or even worse than what was going on in 1989.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  14. This is nothing that could not have happened in Buffalo, Detroit, Cleveland, New York, Oakland or any one of dozens of inner cities. Our society is now defined by two separate entities, the urban plantation with it’s under-educated, under-employed population living off welfare and food stamps and other entitlements as if they were “rights”.
    The other entity is the rest of the country which carries the parasitic urban population. Decades of liberal government have left us utterly divided. Under Obama, the difference is more pronounced than ever.

    kevin barry (acc1fb)

  15. the answer is very simple.

    Not over a jaywalking beef. Ever.

    Aaron Worthing (b1db52)

  16. As the Dems say: “If you get hit, we will punch back twice as hard.”

    Done and done.

    navyvet (206534)

  17. I’m glad that someone finally noticed the SIZE of the “teenage girl” in question.

    I made this point yesterday on “Hot Air”–where Allahpundit was having a fit over a Police Officer punching a teenage girl, as though the teenage girl in question was a 75lb 13 year old.

    If you look carefully at the video, the original subject appears to be approximately the same size as the officer and the second female, the one who got punched, appeared to be his height and to out-weigh him.

    Given two resisting subject who were his size or larger, the officer’s use of force was reasonable, IMHO.

    Further, both girls in question had been arrested in the past for crimes of violence–including assaulting an officer, in the case of one of them.

    Calfed (c9fe79)

  18. “…the male who restrained Rosenthal is the only one who was the least bit helpful in resolving the situation. The rest were either absorbed in recording the incident on their own cell phones or in seeing to it that others had done so…”

    The officer is very lucky someone was there to help. But would you be that person? I can tell you, I’d certainly hesitate – and not just because I’m a lightweight with no fighting experience.

    Let’s say the woman did not get loose from the bystander who was restraining her. So there is no assault on the officer. But she gets a bruised arm in the process. Now will the officer arrest the bystander for assaulting the woman?

    I don’t think that’s an unlikely scenario.

    Gesundheit (cfa313)

  19. Jack,

    Just wondering what you thought of the inability of this officer to get the girls hands behind her back and get her cuffed. It seems to me that he should have been able to do that quickly with the first girl and then move on to the second one who assualted him. If he used the same technique on a stronger male he would be in real trouble without any assistance. Your thoughts?

    pepster (49f768)

  20. Confession: I suppose I’m basing my suspicion on two things. First, the general way in which vigilant citizens seem to get hammered these days. And second, my experience from grade school in which everyone who was “involved” in any altercation got punished, no matter whether they were trying to attack someone, or trying to stop a fight.

    Gesundheit (cfa313)

  21. ” While we were trying to figure out what was going on one of the perps (who was 16 but about 6′ 2″ and 190 pounds) sucker punched the cop and took off. Knocke d the officer to the ground and stunned him for a minute. He also resisted when he was caught after that. All charges but an Assault were nolled and he was sentenced to a suspended sentance.

    Comment by Have Blue — 6/17/2010 @ 10:41 am ”

    That’s damn frustrating.

    Aaron, they weren’t punched over a jaywalking. They battered a cop because he paid attention to them for jaywalking and were punched over their violence. Cops should be able to stop people who jaywalk. If that’s not the ideal law, we should change the law.

    Every single law on the books should be enforced when a cop sees it broken. And the laws that are ridiculous will be changed. Not the cop’s call.

    pepster, I think he would have handled the situation a lot different with a stronger male. Perhaps even shot him. In a way, it was the cop’s underestimating the problem and force he needed when cuffing that led to the situation later.

    But it’s a complex job he has to deal with, and every cop makes some degree of error, either over or under estimating the situation. He did resolve the situation, and while imperfect, he should be forgiven. Arresting some of these nuts is harder than herding cats.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  22. Dustin

    The underlying offense is so frivolous, it shouldn’t have gotten anywhere near this level. i say a police dept that has time to ticket people for jaywalking is a dept. ripe for a cut.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  23. Aaron, that’s not the cop’s fault. The law is the law.

    People get pulled over for failure to use a turn signal or speeding 6 mph over. That’s the law.

    Cops have a duty to enforce the law.

    If I’m pulled over for going 56 in a 50, and I strike the officer, is he unjustified for a forceful reaction?

    Your beef isn’t with the officer’s enforcement of the law, it’s with the law he has no say over.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  24. You lay hands on a cop, you’re goin’ to jail. That’s a given. How roughed-up you become in going there, that’s the only question.

    I have no problem with this officer. The girl’s lucky he didn’t pull his stick, just punched her dumb ass.

    Frank Drebbin (8096f2)

  25. Aaron, sometimes a jay walking bust leads to more serious offenses or warrants being discovered.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  26. the answer is very simple.

    Not over a jaywalking beef. Ever.

    Comment by Aaron Worthing —

    You might try to read the story. The high school there had installed an overpass and they had requested that police enforce jaywalking to prevent some kids from being hit. He was responding to a request from the school.

    Those two women have long rap sheets. They were not students.

    Mike K (8df289)

  27. “The underlying offense is so frivolous…”

    Note: the officer was outside a school as students were dismissed. Picture a lot of teenagers driving cars, and then students freely walking across the street wherever they feel like it. I don’t expect the police to talk to me about crossing in the middle of the block in my quiet neighborhood, but in a situation like this don’t you think it makes sense for him to stop the first young man (and then the 4 girls who did the same thing in front of him) to have a talk?

    Note also: Jack’s description says there was a “nearby pedestrian overpass”. They don’t put those up in most neighborhoods – only when the traffic is heavy and pedestrians pose a danger to themselves and to car traffic. If the officer ignored the law, and a student was struck and killed, then the grievance people would be out there complaining that the cops don’t care about black people getting killed.

    Gesundheit (cfa313)

  28. The people whining about this are of the same mentality that complains that cops don’t shoot the weapons out of criminals hands 50s TV western style whenever deadly force needs to be used.

    Dave (in MA) (fdc1e8)

  29. If the officer ignored the law, and a student was struck and killed, then the grievance people would be out there complaining that the cops don’t care about black people getting killed.

    Too true.

    There’s a reason the school asked for jaywalkers to be stopped… there were near misses or accidents. The law is the law, and it’s really hard to perfectly administer the law. Either way, there will be some room for improvement. But the cop was honestly in the right against a couple of people who acted outrageously, even if the initial crime was barely a crime.

    The solution is common sense cutting of slack to cops in these situations. I get outraged at real abuses. Let’s not get outraged when it’s not appropriate.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  30. Dustin and/or any other cops out there:

    My question is more about technique. Having never been a cop but having some minimal experience restraining violent drunks many years ago, it seems to me that:

    1) this guy should have got her hand behind her back much quicker.

    2) once in that situation should have been able to maintain complete control without allowing the attacker back into an upright position with free hands. He allowed both of them to free their arms and get loose several times. It seems like a mistake. The only thing that seemed to keep the one attacker from escalating even further was the punch. Any real world feedback would be enlightening.

    Thanks

    pepster (49f768)

  31. I’m no cop. I look kinda like a Simpsons cop and love donuts.

    I think pepster has a point. I think the cop was far less forceful and speedy at first and that probably gave the lady the impression she could get away with fighting.

    I am far from an expert on this. I just know I wouldn’t do any better than this cop, and it’s a job that is incredibly unpredictable.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  32. So…policemen should only punch men and not women? Isn’t equality what women have been working for all these years.

    Yossarian (9cee57)

  33. Any real world feedback would be enlightening.

    I’ll give you some real world feedback. In a one-on-one use of force situation between two people of roughly equal size, it is almost impossible for the officer to physically restrain a struggling, resisting, violent adversary without inflicting pain. It used to be called “pain-compliance” and we were given batons, black jacks, slappers, etc. to inflict said pain.

    Those tools are now out of vogue, having been replaced with pepper spray and tasers. Should the officer have used a taser or pepper spray? Maybe, but I don’t know whether he even had a taser and pepper spray comes with it’s own set of problems.

    The officer might have been able to overcome the resisting subject more quickly–but it would likely have been even uglier than what did transpire.

    Calfed (c9fe79)

  34. Dustin

    The cops have discretion. i mean, hell, we called the police on a bomb threat in my office and they could give a crud. i had to actually explain to them that bomb threats were actually illegal.

    I see people speed past cops all the time, ride people’s behinds in traffic, cut people off, drive in the HOV with no passengers, etc. They excercise discretion. More than I would like on those traffic issues–sometimes it feels like the wild west on the roads–but they do.

    Aaron Worthing (e7d72e)

  35. Someone should tell the darlings involved in this dust up that “pride” does not consist of the attitude “I don’t have to take nuthin from nobody,” and that “Dignity” is far more important that pride.

    quasimodo (4af144)

  36. I didn’t have to get punched when I was a teenager and didn’t obey a request to stop running while being chased. He kicked my legs out from under me when I didn’t “spread’em” far enough while being cuffed, then he bumped my head against the roof putting me in the unit.

    Voila! instant compliance to reasonable law enforcement request that last till this day.

    BradnSA (980254)

  37. “The cops have discretion”

    The school has a problem with jaywalkers here. They see a serious problem that could get people killed. It’s a good thing, then, that the cop is deciding to do the right thing and enforce jaywalking laws. And when he has to enforce a law that is in obvious grave need of being enforced, it’s not really his fault the jaywalker turns into a violent fool.

    However, we should minimize this discretion BS. It’s one of the biggest problems in our legal system. It can’t be done away with, of course.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  38. i say a police dept that has time to ticket people for jaywalking is a dept. ripe for a cut.

    Amen. Put me in that camp.

    I don’t think the punching of the girl was justified. That’ll be sorted out.

    But taxpayers should not be on the hook for paying a cop to go after jay-walkers. In a recession, no less. That is a complete waste of money. Personnel is the most expensive part of any operation.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  39. The school has a problem with jaywalkers here

    Dustin: Oh, good Lord. What a cushy city Seattle must be, if that’s their big problem!

    Myron (6a93dd)

  40. Want to stop jaywalking?
    Give motorists immunity from criminal and civil prosecution for running over jaywalkers.
    After the defective genes are removed from the gene-pool, the streets will be safer.

    AD - RtR/OS! (76c972)

  41. Already been said, but, totally justified. Unbelievable attitude problem and, frankly, stupidity (from simply a self-preservation standpoint): little(*) miss entitlement goes out of her way, eluding a helpful male bystander’s efforts to restrain her, to attack an armed cop. She should do 6 months in jail.

    (*– or not so little!)

    Mitch (890cbf)

  42. Many women today are violent towards men b/c they assume the man will hold back.

    It is abusive and immoral when a women does it.

    So, eye for eye applies. Sock her in the face in order to get the violence to stop.

    HeavenSent (a9126d)

  43. Amen. Put me in that camp.
    Comment by Myron — 6/17/2010 @ 12:18 pm

    — As soon as Obama’s brown-shirts build it, you’re in. In fact, maybe they can name it after you.

    Icy Texan (94a0eb)

  44. Jack…care to enlighten us as to how many people in L.A. our killed or injured while committing jay-walking?
    I remember talking to a “Downtown” beat-cop (when they still had cops walking beats down there) some decades back who remarked that it was one of his biggest problems.
    Also, how many car-car T/A’s are caused by drivers swerving to avoid a jay-walker?

    AD - RtR/OS! (76c972)

  45. I was a street cop for 16 years before I had to grow-up and get a real job.

    In that 16 years I never hit a lady, but I beat several females like a gong!

    All ladies are females…well, everywhere but California…but not all females are ladies.

    People forget that…

    MJN1957 (6e1275)

  46. “#

    The school has a problem with jaywalkers here

    Dustin: Oh, good Lord. What a cushy city Seattle must be, if that’s their big problem!

    Comment by Myron — 6/17/2010 @ 12:19 pm

    Um, it’s possible for police department to have traffic cops and homocide detectives… At The Same Time!

    Jaywalkers at dangerous but high pedestrian intersections are a serious problem. A lot of people die from that kind of problem. When the school asked the cops to crack down on jaywalkers, they did so because this isn’t some quiet street.

    Anyone saying this was frivolous or unimportant are blatantly wrong. It’s funny how democrats will completely repudiate their entire belief system for a tiny little troll, which is what Myron did, of course, in saying government has no role in policing dangerous intersections that a school noticed a lot of kids are running across. Kinda insane.

    Furthermore, call it frivolous all damn day long, he didn’t punch anyone for jaywalking.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  47. It would be helpful to have a quiz on each new post and a person would have to get 3/4 correct before they were allowed to comment.

    It sounds to me from reading the linked article:

    1. The officer wasn’t being compulsive and needing something to do. The incident occurred in a dangerous area where an overhead walkway had been constructed (as mentioned above).

    2. The officer was showing discretion until the two chose to ignore the officer. (Citizen mistake #1).

    3. The initial arrest and handcuffing didn’t happen until they were already resisting.

    4. The 2nd suspect first assaulted the officer. Reasonable people do not do that, so the officer now had an unpredictable situation with at least two belligerent suspects and a gathering crowd. He had no reasonable choice other than to gain control of the situation as quickly as possible.

    As said above, the officer likely made his first mistake by underestimating the force needed to control the first suspect. He was likely trying to be “as gentle as possible”, and instead of gaining cooperation he got more trouble. Most people do inherently try to get by with the least force as possible (that’s why mothers often cannot hold their child for immunizations, etc., they can’t act on the fact that firmer is being kind to the child in that situation).

    I know my daughter’s Karate teacher has multiple ways to rapidly subdue someone that doesn’t look as bad as a strike to the face, but is more painful and will rapidly result in broken limbs or separated joints if the person does not comply. In Philly, officers learn multiple such techniques while in the academy, but there is very little emphasis on continuing practice, which is what one would need in order to use the techniques efficiently and effectively .

    MD in Philly (5a98ff)

  48. I forget the term for it, but one idea is that when a neighborhood starts to tolerate graffiti, broken windows, etc., that is an invitation for worsening crime and neglect, so making a deal over acts of graffiti is actually important.

    I think the same has to be true concerning lawful behavior. If it becomes the norm where people think they can get away with ignoring the police, or fighting arrest, a whole new atmosphere of anarchy pervades the area. This obviously has already happened in this area and others. Assaults on officers should be taken more seriously to restore general order.

    MD in Philly (5a98ff)

  49. What I hate about stuff like this – as a taxpayer – is that this lovely young woman will likely sue and get paid for being a idiot. Not cool.

    Pat (366dd8)

  50. Pat, that’s one good reason to throw the book at her. She committed a felony.

    People shouldn’t punch cops, even if they think the cop is being a hardass about some silly law that doesn’t apply to them because they are so special. If she wants to sue, she should do it from prison. Make an example out of her, so the next punk knows not to hit cops or anyone else.

    It’s interesting MD brought up graffiti. I used google street view to look around this area and they have a problem with graffiti. In fact, one crosswalk has ‘Oh SH_T’ spray painted over it.

    As best as I can tell, there needs to be visible presence of cops in this area regardless of the threat to pedestrians. And while they are there, keeping drug dealers away from kids, they can enforce some traffic safety.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  51. he should have just shot them both and done society and the gene pool a favor.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  52. Another consideration the police officer may have been cognizant of was the fact that there were a number of people in extremely close proximity to the woman and the officer, therefore it would seem that would increase a sense of urgency to get this under control lest an onlooker decided to get involved as well.

    That could have easily escalated the situation to a far worse outcome.

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  53. Fully justified use of force in this situation.

    However, I hate how so many cops blithely add “resisting” charges. Maybe I am off base, but it seemed that back in the day, such charges were not routinely added unless the perp really did struggle. Verbally arguing and not immediately complying with commands do not typically rise to a felony, imo. To me, this is the flip side of all the baseless lawsuits and protestations like in this instance.

    Ed from SFV (f0e1cb)

  54. I’m stunned at those who have expressed their disagreement with the officer’s reaction simply because it was a jaywalking situation. Look at the video more closely – the first girl is seen getting physical with the officer, and then her friend (the one punched by the officer) escalates the situation by physically attacking the officer with her hands near the officer’s face. She’s lucky she only got punched. And then as the officer tries to put cuffs on her, the first girl then approaches the officer again, but from behind, and physically attacks him again – not to mention the danger of her possibly acquiring the gun. I’m amazed that this is even an issue.

    MOG (7d2a2c)

  55. In my courtroom, he’d get the same thing I’d get if I punched him in the face on the public way. And fifteen years more for being armed with a handgun at the time. A blue uniform is not a license, it’s a responsibility.

    nk (db4a41)

  56. nk would put this cop in prison for 15 years+/

    HAHAHAHAHA

    No really.

    In my courtroom, nk would be given a breathalyzer. Um, and my bailiff would be Vanna White… not today’s Vanna, but 1990 Vanna. And I’d drive a Porsche.

    /fantasies are fun

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  57. Wasn’t she pushing him? How threatened he must have been, the poor combat-trained police enforcement officer. He got angry and punched the bitch. There is no “this was a good decision” about it. What kind of a country do you want to live in? Sometimes I seriously can’t understand your complaints about the encroachment of government on one hand, but complete embracing of it on the other. Something isn’t right. I wouldn’t push a cop, but at the other time, it is hardly a physical, harming assault, and definitely does not warrant a full on wound up punch to the face. That is a weak pussy of an police officer.

    Chris Hooten (38b032)

  58. Maybe he was weak, Chris. I don’t expect cops to be kung fu masters.

    Have you ever been attacked by two women? If you looked like me, you’d understand that when women are clawing at you all the time, it’s pretty difficult to deal with.

    They could have grabbed his weapon (ahem).

    I don’t see how this is a total embrace of government. Like I said, I know there are police abuses and get outraged by them. Don’t burn that straw man and stop treating us like a uniform ‘other’. This isn’t a partisan issue at all.

    They struck first, and he can’t think perfectly and with hindsight in that situation. That means he gets slack. When you hit a cop, don’t be surprised if they overreact and use more force than is minimally necessary. Is that the hypothetical ideal? Of course not. It’s the real world.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  59. I saw the video. He didn’t deal with it well at all.

    Chris Hooten (38b032)

  60. Chrissy wants the cops to lie down and take it, because Chrissy knows what cops are and what their jobs entail. Just ask him.

    Dmac (3d61d9)

  61. I would never send another police officer alone into that neighborhood. Based on their comments, the “neutral witnesses” won’t be so neutral the next time a police officer tries to make an arrest.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  62. nk and Chris Hooten,

    If you were the police officer in the exact same situation, what would you have done to,

    a) protect yourself
    b) prevent an escalation of events with regard to the increasing crowd size
    c) to effectively restrain the woman?

    If it is wrong on it’s face (as you both seem to feel it is) for a police officer to punch a woman in the face – or a suspect in the face – or to punch anyone while on duty, how would have handled this differently?

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  63. You can believe what you want, but there is a reason people are angry. Was the punch legally justified? Probably he will get the benefit of the doubt. Was it the right thing to do? Duh.

    Chris Hooten (38b032)

  64. Dana, I think Chris would have refused to enforce the law. And then after a while, the city would look like Chicago and Baltimore, democrat heavens I wouldn’t set foot in unless there was an urgent reason.

    But I would appreciate it if they answered your very insightful question.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  65. The “benefit of the doubt”? Is that what you call it when the video shows someone pushing an officer trying to make an arrest?

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  66. Chris, you might get a better reception — and, golly, maybe even persuade some people — if you would support your conclusions with factual observations connected by logic. Instead, you just post conclusion upon conclusion, punctuated with things like “Duh.” Color me unpersuaded.

    But we will be waiting for your reply with bated breath!

    Mitch (890cbf)

  67. You can believe what you want, but there is a reason people are angry. Was the punch legally justified? Probably he will get the benefit of the doubt. Was it the right thing to do? Duh.

    Comment by Chris Hooten — 6/17/2010 @ 3:31 pm

    Chris, were you addressing me? If so, it doesn’t answer my question at #63. I hope you’ll take the time to provide one because I’m sincerely puzzled by what other option was available given the time frame involved, as well as a sizable person choosing of their own free will to become violent with a police officer.

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  68. You have to be kidding me with your junior debate tactics. The cop overreacted. There is a video tape of it. You can attempt to defend it, but the video speaks for itself, and unlike other recent video from partisan hacks, it has not been spliced and diced to make it appear that something else is going on than actually is.

    Chris Hooten (38b032)

  69. Chris, please answer Dana’s question. I don’t see why you think we’re always partisan hacks. You have often expressed that we’re this terrible group of evil people, and you won’t even answer a polite question.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  70. I don’t know, did I say Dana? BTW last comment was for Mitch. I think police officers have a duty to use the least possible force necessary. If someone pushes you in an argument, are they going to next grab your gun and shoot you? Really, you think so? From pushing right into grabbing an officers gun and shooting them? Please. He let his anger get the best of him. That a tough friggin’ job, and only the best and most even-keeled need apply. We don’t need cops that punch women in the face because they “pushed” them.

    Chris Hooten (38b032)

  71. “I don’t know, did I say Dana? BTW last comment was for Mitch.”

    Just answer he question, which you have not. This isn’t meant to be a gotcha. I’d just like to know what the alternative is.

    Instead of some sarcastic strawman about shooting people, just answer Dana’s question.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  72. However, I hate how so many cops blithely add “resisting” charges.
    Comment by Ed from SFV

    I’m not sure that is in fact true, as one other commenter mentioned. At least in Philly, and I suspect other places, there is an attitude of “we’ve got enough major crap to deal with, don’t bother with that”. I can’t see a resisting arrest charge in Philly unless the person fled in a vehicle or physically attacked, and probably left objective wounds.

    I don’t intend on having an argument with Chris H., but I’ll raise a point one more time. You’re a police officer who just wanted to get the attention of two young women to tell them to use the overhead, that’s what it’s for. (I would assume crossing in the hazardous area puts not only themselves at risk, but vehicles and passengers of cars that my need to take “evasive maneuvers”.

    But instead of accepting the hint, they decide to make an issue of it, then refuse to cooperate, then one physically assaults the officer.

    You, as the officer, would be stupid if you thought, “I’m a man, this is a girl, cut the nonsense already”. Instead, you should think, “This person just took a simple issue and escalated it to attacking an officer, this is crazy, and I can’t wait around to see what crazy stunt she will pull next.”

    Sane and rational 17 year old young women don’t attack police officers, so if you’re an attacked police officer, you should assume that you can’t assume anything in this encounter.

    MD in Philly (5a98ff)

  73. Very well said, MD.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  74. We have a video expert available now, I see. The “other video.” I wonder what it was. We also have two reflexive anti-police commenters. Interesting what a story like this will bring out.

    Mike K (8df289)

  75. You have to be kidding me with your junior debate tactics.

    I don’t know if this was addressed to me or not, but no matter, if it is toward me (Junior Debater!), I would still like you to answer the question because if one is willing to condemn the police officer for his response, I would think that you would have a better and more effective solution.

    I would love to hear from nk, too, as he was once a police officer.

    Dana, Junior Debater (1e5ad4)

  76. Anti-police? Uh, no. The majority of police would NEVER react like this. Maybe he was having a bad day or whatever, but this was inappropriate. It wasn’t like they were under suspicion of having weapons or anything. It was a minor thing escalated by the lady, but then escalated even further by the cop. Not the right thing to do. If you get in a fight, and someone shoves you, does that give you the right to full on punch them in the face? I didn’t think so.

    Chris Hooten (38b032)

  77. It wasn’t like they were under suspicion of having weapons or anything. It was a minor thing escalated by the lady, but then escalated even further by the cop. Not the right thing to do. If you get in a fight, and someone shoves you, does that give you the right to full on punch them in the face? I didn’t think so.

    WWCD????? WHAT. WOULD. CHRIS. DO????

    Surely you have a course of action that would have been far more effective and beneficial to all parties involved?

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  78. nk was a cop?

    Did not know that.

    Chris claims the majority of police would never react like this.

    Why? Maybe the punch to the face is unusual, but almost every cop would have responded with a great deal of force once struck.

    Chris, don’t be obnoxious. You’ve attacked us and we’re just asking you to answer a very polite and reasonable question. I hate those threads were someone trolls by repeatedly going on and on with attacks and pretending he didn’t even see the question.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  79. I am sick of people equating “pushing” with “attacking”. Only an idiot can’t tell the difference. Obviously if you push a cop, you might be looking at an “assault” charge, although that seems like a stretch to me. All I can say is that at least he didn’t tase her or pepper spray her and possibly kill her, or even worse shoot her because she “pushed” him.

    Chris Hooten (38b032)

  80. Again, WWCD?????

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  81. chris, touching a cop is asualt.

    do you get it? assualt.

    look around in the video he is alone and thier is a crowd.

    he used force he hit her, both of these stupid thug girls got less than they deserved. I would have maced the one and the other should have been punched twice, the second time for good measure.

    rumcrook¾ (4a9bee)

  82. “In my courtroom, he’d get the same thing I’d get if I punched him in the face on the public way. And fifteen years more for being armed with a handgun at the time.”

    HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!11ty!!!!

    This from the same nk who said he would shoot hobos who talked to him on the sidewalk a few nights ago. Sumpin ain’t right.

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  83. Shaking hands with a cop is assault? Really? Maybe you want to refine that definition?

    Chris Hooten (38b032)

  84. No, I was never a sworn police officer. It’s a special thing to be a sworn officer. Not just some employee or political appointee, or deputy sheriff.

    I was an investigator for the Chicago Crime Commission. It’s not the same thing.

    And a Chicago Police Academy dropout. Wearing blue did not bother me. Thinking blue did.

    If I misled you, I apologize, I did not intend to, just to say that I had some perspective.

    nk (db4a41)

  85. being pushed is not being “struck” although it will hold up in court that way. They are not trained to react to being pushed as if they had been struck. They are not trained to overreact to any situation with overwhelming violence. That is not how it is done. I hope that all those defending this guy ends up being pulled over by an overreactive cop having a bad day some day, and finds out just how they act sometimes. There are tons of good cops, but unfortunately, many bad ones as well (as anyone involved in L.A. law should be intimately familiar with) Yelling at an officer can be considered assault also (somewhat ridiculously), but they are not trained to react the same way to that, either. I certainly could not put up with all the crap a cop has to, but that is the nature of the job.

    Chris Hooten (38b032)

  86. Thank you, nk, for the clarification.

    Wearing blue did not bother me. Thinking blue did. Now that’s a curious statement that would be interesting to hear expounded on…but I digress, WWCD?????

    Chris, are you there???

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  87. Chris, did you just hope overreactive cops assault us? Is that how far you are willing to go in the name of partisanship? You really hate our guts, even though we’re pretty nice to you.

    Maybe you should just answer Dana’s question or admit the cop did a better job than you would.

    Also, saying something isn’t legally X but legally would be X in court is irrational.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  88. “being pushed is not being “struck” although it will hold up in court that way.”

    Chris – Are you trying to say it is not really assault assault?

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  89. Something can be legal and yet still not the right thing to do. Come on. Don’t twist my words.

    Chris Hooten (38b032)

  90. “Something can be legal and yet still not the right thing to do.”

    Chris – What would have been the right thing to do?

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  91. Dana, I would hazard to guess that most police, including ones in Chicago, would cover each other’s asses, rather than do what is morally right sometimes. They “stick up for their own.” or “think blue.” Ultimately, this is to the detriment of the police forces, and would be very difficult to swallow for some people involved in the legal system, and police work. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, nk.

    Chris Hooten (38b032)

  92. “being pushed is not being “struck” although it will hold up in court that way.”

    I didn’t twist your freaking words, brother.

    You did not have a normative point here. You were redefining the situation. Actually, the term is battery, and any unwanted touch is a battery. A push is the same as a strike, and it’s a serious problem to let people push cops.

    I said earlier I don’t think his reaction was ideal, yet I cut him common sense slack because this was a wild problem to handle.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  93. Wearing blue did not bother me. Thinking blue did. Now that’s a curious statement that would be interesting to hear expounded on…but I digress, WWCD?????

    Police *officer* is a misnomer. The police are paramilitary organizations. They have uniformity of dress and uniformity of thought. They are all privates.

    nk (db4a41)

  94. So if you are a Congressman walking down the street and a college kid asks you if you agree with the head of your party you have a right to manhandle and choke him, while stealing his phone.

    If you are a lawyer walking down the street and a homeless guy asks for a handout you may shoot him.

    If a policeman is being violently attacked by two large criminal females while surrounded by a hostile crowd and hits one of them, he goes to jail for 15 years.

    An interesting society some people want to raise families in.

    Machinist (497786)

  95. They get into trouble when the use discretion instead of training so mostly they don’t/\.

    nk (db4a41)

  96. Well, is it a battery battery?

    My only real complaint is the targeting of the face. I’d try to avoid that as a target, just because of a fear of crowd reaction and permanent damage to the person I was hitting. If rushed, however (and he may well have felt rushed) all bets are off. What good are submission holds if they are not practiced and used? Of course, two on one makes all sorts of combat more difficult.

    htom (412a17)

  97. Comment by Ed from SFV — 6/17/2010 @ 2:34 pm

    Ed, I think a lot of those “resisting” charges are due to the changed way that the police handle those in custody today, v “the bad old days”.
    Back in the “Ice Ages”, if you resisted arrest, you would have a habit of stumbling while getting into or out of a patrol car, and need to have your attire straightened for your booking photo, and then need to go to the washroom to clean-up from the fingerprinting where you would probably slip on the wet-floor. Then they would pour you into the Drunk Tank.
    Since it is much more difficult to have “attitude adjustment sessions” in the modern world, they just jack the charges with everything that will fit and/or stick.

    BTW, if a woman pulls a gun on a cop, is she going to be treated any differently than a man who does so?
    If she is, that PD will be looking for a new cop, and scheduling a funeral.
    She pummelled an officer, she’s lucky if all she has is a black eye.
    They should throw the book at both of them.

    AD - RtR/OS! (76c972)

  98. Who was violently attacked by two large criminal females while surrounded by a hostile crowd? That wasn’t in the video.

    Chris Hooten (38b032)

  99. “#

    Who was violently attacked by two large criminal females while surrounded by a hostile crowd? That wasn’t in the video.

    Comment by Chris Hooten — 6/17/2010 @ 4:49 pm

    You’re a liar.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  100. They are not trained to react to being pushed as if they had been struck. They are not trained to overreact to any situation with overwhelming violence. That is not how it is done.

    Chris, what specifically are they trained to do in this situation (I don’t know, do you?) and since you are the arbiter of overreaction and emphatically declare that “That is not how it is done”, please tell us for the 47th time, How Should It Be Done???

    I wouldn’t push a cop, but at the other time, it is hardly a physical, harming assault, and definitely does not warrant a full on wound up punch to the face. That is a weak pussy of an police officer.

    Speaking of “weak pussy”, I would suggest if one is going to judge and condemn the behavior of a police officer in a very heated and volatile situation and one where the offender is perfectly free to choose to obey the policeman, and then suggest that it is wrong on it’s face, illegal and not how it’s done, one should also be able to fully explain the better and more effective choice that could have been made by said policeman, because if one cannot provide a more viable (or legal) option, one should reconsider shooting their mouth off lest they be perceived as a weak pussy.

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  101. but seattle cops
    less capable defend self
    PNW femmen

    ColonelHaiku (523269)

  102. Machinist – High Five! Great minds.

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  103. What kind of idiot escalates a jaywalking ticket to the point of fisticuffs? He should have removed himself from the situation temporarily, written the tickets, handed them out, and been on his way. The onus remains on the peace officer to retain the peace.

    Chris Hooten (38b032)

  104. I want you to do a test tomorrow, I want you to ask every single cop you meet if they would have punched that teenager in the face, or found some other way to deal with the situation. Cops are not gigantic dicks that think that it is cool or necessary to punch people in the face.

    Chris Hooten (38b032)

  105. She could easily have DIED from a blow to the face like that. Oh, but who cares? Let’s feel sorry for the poorly trained police man, and the big manly thing he did to the big dangerous jaywalkers.

    Chris Hooten (38b032)

  106. Chris should relocate to a agricultural area, as he is an expert at constructing “straw men”. Why, he could keep fields crow-free for miles around.

    AD - RtR/OS! (76c972)

  107. #103, 104, 105, 106,

    Then what should he have done, Chris Hooten?

    Again: Speaking of “weak pussy”, I would suggest if one is going to judge and condemn the behavior of a police officer in a very heated and volatile situation and one where the offender is perfectly free to choose to obey the policeman, and then suggest that it is wrong on it’s face, illegal and not how it’s done, one should also be able to fully explain the better and more effective choice that could have been made by said policeman, because if one cannot provide a more viable (or legal) option, one should reconsider shooting their mouth off lest they be perceived as a weak pussy.

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  108. Why don’t you try the FIRST ONE, #103, Dana. Sheesh. That’s what he should have done.

    Chris Hooten (38b032)

  109. Hootenany is on a meth bender again.

    JD (41e5f8)

  110. The “idiot” that escalated a jay-walking ticket (probably was going to be just a warning until the mouth started) into a physical confrontation was (were) the two jay-walkers.
    They can think of their current situation as an opportunity to adjust their attitudes vis-a-vis the police and authority.

    AD - RtR/OS! (76c972)

  111. Why don’t you try the FIRST ONE, #103, Dana. Sheesh. That’s what he should have done.

    Oops, I apologize, I missed that one…must be cuz it took soooo long to arrive.

    Anyway,

    He should have removed himself from the situation temporarily, written the tickets, handed them out, and been on his way. The onus remains on the peace officer to retain the peace.

    I’m not sure what you (or how) he would remove himself from the situation in light of Jack Dunphy’s report,

    Officer Walsh stopped these four as well, and he was gathering the information required to warn them or to cite them for the traffic violation when one of them, Marilyn Levias, 19, started walking away. According to Walsh’s police report, he warned Levias that she would be arrested if she continued to walk away. When Levias kept walking, Walsh grabbed her arm and attempted to detain her.

    Levias’ actions would seem to preclude the officer from “removing himself from the situation temporarily”.

    Also, he was attempting to gather necessary information to cite them but there was a lack of cooperation. He would not have been able to write a ticket without having the necessary information and if he removed himself, how could he write the ticket without having sufficient info?

    Again, from Mr. Dunphy,

    Police officers are authorized by law to use force when necessary to effect an arrest, overcome resistance, or prevent escape.</i> Levias, by refusing Officer Walsh’s lawful order to stop and answer for a traffic violation, rendered herself subject to arrest for a misdemeanor, and by intruding into the situation and shoving Walsh, Rosenthal committed a felony.

    It would appear that temporarily leaving the situation to write a ticket, while seemingly easy and painless, was not the least bit reasonable given the situation.

    The onus remains on the peace officer to retain the peace.

    I’m not a police officer so I cannot speak specifically to the application and/or accuracy of this. However when I, a mere junior debater, consider a police officer being physically assaulted by a citizen, it’s difficult to see how that officer might maintain the peace. Perhaps by subduing said assaulter, handcuffing them, and putting them in the backseat of a cruiser might be one way I guess, eh?

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  112. “Let’s feel sorry for the poorly trained police man, and the big manly thing he did to the big dangerous jaywalkers.”

    Chris – We use school crossing guards in my town. Every year at least one is seriously injured by a car, even with most of the crossings at intersections where there are stop signs or traffic lights. Jaywalking around schools is a problem you festering moron, which is why the school asked the police to specifically help them out.

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  113. Somebody should donkeypunch Crissy. He knows things.

    JD (41e5f8)

  114. That is a weak pussy of an police officer.

    I hate it when the Trolls bring out their projection.

    Dmac (3d61d9)

  115. Dustin

    Yike, this is a popular thread.

    Anyway, I am going to have to agree to disagree on this. I don’t care about jaywalking. i don’t want cops to care about jaywalking. And i certainly don’t want it coming to blows like that. But i have said it before.

    Aaron Worthing (A.W.) (f97997)

  116. how much hoot coulda
    hooten hoot hoot if’n a
    hooten not so lame?

    ColonelHaiku (523269)

  117. Aaron Worthing,

    Respectfully Sir, If we don’t enforce jaywalking laws in such areas it will increase until these roads are unusable by cars. What do we do then? Build alternate roads?

    Police have been citing jaywalkers for many decades and it was never acceptable to attack the officer for it and the officer was never blamed for the attack if it took place. Why is it now such a problem that the officer is supposed to ignore the law lest the criminals get upset? I do not want police making or breaking laws. The leaders in the government must accept responsibility and change bad laws, not blame police for enforcing them.

    This seems like blaming the security guard that Cynthia McKinney hit for enforcing the rules that he was trained and charged with enforcing.

    Are you saying the officer should have refused that duty or that he should have ignored the crimes he was sent to deal with. I don’t see what other choice he had. What do you think, Sir?

    Machinist (497786)

  118. The is never any excuse for striking a police officer. They must win any fight that they are involved in, or they risk having their sidearm used against them and bystanders after they are beaten. They don’t have to fight fair, they have to win.

    tyree (63c76f)

  119. Chris Hooten believes the police officer was poorly trained, and evidence?

    tyree (63c76f)

  120. Boot lickin’ racist authoritarians, the whole lot of you.

    JD (41e5f8)

  121. woman have her rights
    but angry seattle cop
    have a decent left

    ColonelHaiku (523269)

  122. Hooten continues to demonstrate a separation from reality.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  123. Chris obviously didn’t read Jack’s column, or he is unable to comprehend what he reads. As Dana said, it was clear the first female was walking away before the police officer could caution her. Possibly he wasn’t even going to write a ticket. We don’t really know from the facts we have.

    As for nk, he seems to have gone off the deep end lately. Come backkkk, nk.

    PatAZ (9d1bb3)

  124. chris hooten spawn of
    unholy coupling of dog
    and male hyena

    ColonelHaiku (523269)

  125. I find Radley Balko’s take interesting. He states,

    Seems to me that the mistake came earlier: This started as a jaywalking citation. Was it it really so important that the woman get a jaywalking fine that she needed to be chased down and thrown against the patrol car? Even if she was trying to avoid the fine, seems like at some point you realize what’s at stake here (a single incident of someone undermining your authority to get away with a petty crime), and just let it go.

    There’s a casualness toward the law that is troubling. When do citizens get to decide which laws police officers should enforce? And can we afford to allow someone breaking the law – no matter which law – to undermine the authority of those charged to enforce it?

    It seems as if the onus for the outcome of the situation was placed squarely on the police officer and his decisions, rather than the woman’s decision to not comply with the officer’s request.

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  126. Dana – Did that surprise you? I guess it surprised me, as it was less mendoucheous than I expected.

    JD (41e5f8)

  127. Exactly, Dana, there seems to be no acknowledgment by Balko that this police officer was dealing with a serious criminal, even if the particular crime did not impress Balko.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  128. I have a young daughter. I want you to protect her, not beat her. She has a big head of curly hair and in the summer she gets dark.

    nk (db4a41)

  129. Good plan, nk, top off your weirder comments with a veiled accusation of racism.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  130. It did surprise me, JD.

    I’m not at all comfortable with the officer punching the woman (really, is anyone?), but I’m still hard pressed to see what other course of action he could have taken – save for walking away and letting it go, as Balko and some commenters have suggested. But then that brings up the issue of picking and choosing which laws we enforce at any given time. And we’ve all seen how that works out (illegal immigration!). Obviously some crimes have a more devastating impact than others, and some are victimless offenses, but do we still get to cherry pick?

    I guess he could have pulled his taser, or even his gun and that might have de-escalated things and prevented the need for any other serious action.

    (What’s amazing to me is that even after he did throw the punch, the other girl was still fighting mad and completely non-compliant to his efforts to cuff her).

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  131. He’s not racist, nor an anti – Semite. Because he told us so.

    Dmac (3d61d9)

  132. some funny stuff there
    post one twenty nine but is
    still sadly poignant

    ColonelHaiku (523269)

  133. I didn’t have time to read every single comment, but I will tell you that the area in question has a very high rate of pedestrian vs auto accidents that are caused by jaywalking. That particular intersection is very busy, busy enough for the city to have built a special pedestrian walkway over it but these high-school students are too stupid or too lazy to use it.

    Jaywalking tickets downtown at 6:00 am when no one is around would indeed be deeply stupid and a waste of time. Stopping deeply stupid teenagers who think they are immortal from jaywalking where this happened is not at all unreasonable. As one caller on a radio show said this week, the residents of the Rainier Valley want more of a police presence because of their crime rate. Well, when the cops are not dealing with felonies, there’s no reason for them to completely ignore morons who don’t pay attention to traffic laws during the rush hour (which, yes, starts around 3:00 pm).

    I am outraged at the notion of even a technical criticism of Officer Walsh. I am very concerned that if the police management doesn’t back up the officers, and tell the race hustlers to f*** themselves, we will lose officers. SPD is already undermanned; we don’t need management to make it worse.

    No, I’m not a cop; I just live here.

    Tonestaple (a2c9aa)

  134. “I have a young daughter. I want you to protect her, not beat her.”

    nk – I hope you teach her the importance of not jaywalking so she avoids getting hit by a car. Pedestrians tend to lose arguments with cars.

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  135. daleyrocks, and not assaulting others, or stealing cars.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  136. If two criminals attack NK’s daughter, I wonder how a policeman is supposed to protect her if they ignore his polite request to stop hitting her. If the officer hits the attackers he will have NK wanting 15 years in prison plus 15 more because he has his mandated duty sidearm. What will NK want for the officer to serve if the officer does not hit the women and they put his daughter in the hospital?

    Police work is difficult and dangerous but we seem to want to make it impossible. When you drive out men of good will by making them scapegoats for cowardly politicians and race hustlers then who will be police? Do you really think our children will be safer in the society you are making?

    Machinist (497786)

  137. Anyway, I am going to have to agree to disagree on this. I don’t care about jaywalking. i don’t want cops to care about jaywalking. And i certainly don’t want it coming to blows like that. But i have said it before.

    Comment by Aaron Worthing (A.W.) — 6/17/2010 @ 6:08 pm

    No sweat.

    In this case, I care a lot about jaywalking. Of course, the jaywalking isn’t really the issue at all. I don’t care if the cop was just asking her where she got her shoes. He had to use force to deal with the situation, albeit it’s a shame so much was used. I cut him slack not because he was perfect, but because I don’t ask for perfect.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  138. Damn. I agree with A.W. Sorry, A.W., can’t help it. I see a man hit a child, girl child or man child no difference, I want his hand rotting off at the shoulder.

    nk (db4a41)

  139. “I see a man hit a child, girl child or man child no difference, I want his hand rotting off at the shoulder.”

    Unless the man is a Democratic Congressman and the boy dares to ask him a political question? Is grabbing the neck and taking his phone OK? Just not hitting?

    Machinist (497786)

  140. nk – Will you teach your daughter to strike policemen when they are attempting to restrain her for a valid purpose?

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  141. Captain Haiku not
    proficient at writing good ones
    Damn I wish he was.

    Chris Hooten (5729cb)

  142. Meth is evil drug
    Not my kind of thing to do
    But thanks for caring

    this is for JD, in the spirit of the Captain.

    Chris Hooten (5729cb)

  143. Man-child gets shoved
    by an angry teenage girl
    big punch to her face.

    Chris Hooten (5729cb)

  144. Angry congressman
    strangles college kid, takes phone
    not the brightest bulb

    Chris Hooten (5729cb)

  145. We should just disband all LE agencies, and let “the street” work it out.

    AD - RtR/OS! (76c972)

  146. Y’know, I’d love to see some of the folks here call that 17 year old convicted criminal assault female a “child” to her face.

    Can we videotape the results?

    Foxfier (52d3cd)

  147. BTW I can’t stand jaywalkers, and wish that cops would hand out more tickets, albeit without punching the recipients in the face :-).

    Chris Hooten (5729cb)

  148. The Etheridge kids had to be twenty at least. Gotta say “Grow up” at some age.

    Come on, this is like that little girl in DC who was handcuffed and taken to juvie hall for eating a french fry on the subway. Except that this time the punch was physical and not judicial. Yet.

    nk (db4a41)

  149. nk – Will you teach your daughter to strike policemen when they are attempting to restrain her for a valid purpose?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 6/17/2010 @ 8:52 pm

    I’m teaching her to not be afraid to pull God’s Beard.

    nk (db4a41)

  150. And I don’t agree that a “Get your hands off her” shove is hitting.

    nk (db4a41)

  151. Probably Julius Caesar’s assassination plot was started when he made Vercintorix (Gaul leader) kneel to surrender. (Romans did not kneel, not even to their gods.)

    nk (db4a41)

  152. *Vercigentorix*

    nk (db4a41)

  153. I just watched the video several times again. I stand by my assessment. She pushed his arm, and he paused for a second, then decided to go ahead and punch her right in the face. He had to reach to get her in the face. He was definitely using too much force for the situation. They were jaywalking . Sheesh.

    Chris Hooten (5729cb)

  154. I live in a small village, with lots of kids on the street. Mine one of them. My car has no rights.

    nk (db4a41)

  155. @Chris Hooten #57 – What kind of world would I like to live in?

    Preferably one in which you and NK were kept in school until some sense permeated your skulls.

    To address the issue at hand, let’s review.
    Item – Officer detains one woman for jaywalking in an area where said enforcement has been specifically requested, and an alternative method of legally crossing has been provided.
    Item – Detainee physically resists arrest after escalating this from a situation requiring a citation to one requiring arrest.
    Item – Crowd of belligerent onlookers rapidly closes in on the officer (watch the video again, several people *run* toward them)
    Item – 2nd offender commits assault and battery upon the officer while in the performance of his duty – obstruction, assault, battery.

    Your argument that is is all over jaywalking is infantile, and untrue. The situation started with jaywalking, and rapidly escalated beyond that.

    If your contention is that he had other options, you seem strangely reluctant to cite them. He had 3 options, physical force, non-lethal force, lethal force. He chose the one appropriate to the situation.

    I do not normally leap to the defense of the police, having known far too many who take pleasure in the power the badge gives them. In this case, however, I have no problems defending this officers actions, as he correctly responded to the situation.

    Sorry children, but you lose this debate. Thank you, and come again.

    NavyspyII (df615d)

  156. People are people — not computers — even cops. But if you’re gonna got this officer slack for hitting this girl, you gotta cut her the same for shoving him.

    It’s like the old conundrum on the original Star Trek that Spock used to make a robot crazy. He said, “I am lying”.

    nk (db4a41)

  157. Here’s another conundrum (of sorts), when was the last time Chris Hooten contributed something worthwhile to a thread?

    As I and others have said before, a big problem with trolls is how a thread becomes lengthy and meaningful comments are diluted and hence often ignored, needing to be repeated multiple times because few people want to take the time to read 150 comments on one thread.

    A. If each young woman was an island, one would be tempted, as said earlier, to let her jaywalk in this dangerous intersection at a busy time of day and perhaps find out the hard way why it wasn’t a good idea.

    B.
    But the young woman, like a man, is not an island unto herself, and her actions affect others. Even if the only other person affected was a solo driver who was not physically injured, there is a lot of stress and guilt from hitting someone, even if it isn’t your fault, and more likely than not the driver may have litigation to face as well (“Yes, I’m sorry. I’m sorry your daughter was an idiot who thought it was ok to walk into traffic going 40 mph, or whatever). But it is also possible that a driver could make sudden moves to avoid hitting her triggering a different accident with innocent bystanders being injured or killed.
    – As said above, a ticket for jaywalking at 6 am and no traffic is ridiculous; in the given situation not so- and even at that, the officer seemed to be content with giving a warning had they given the reasonable courtesy of stopping.

    C. If you want a society where people routinely ignore police officers and dare to be physically restrained, let them get away with it unless it is really important, so a suspect knows if they are being physically stopped it must be really serious and they should fight harder. If you want a society that is not as close to chaos and anarchy, then don’t let people get away with it, even if the officer only wanted to ask if they had witnessed a certain event.

    D. In Philadelphia and other places I’m familiar with, cops are taught various submission techniques when they join the force, but there is little, if any, energy, emphasis, or effort given to maintaining a working knowledge of them. Yes, it would have looked better for the cop as well as be more effective if he took her hand, twisted the wrist, locked the elbow, and put her in a position where she had to go to the ground or have her arm snapped or elbow dislocated. As crazy as she was acting, I wouldn’t have been surprised to see her resist and end up with far greater injury. Yes, it is always the responsibility of a cop or of a citizen using self-defense to deal with the aggressor with the least force as possible. But they both also have the right and responsibility to use adequate force. As some have said, the officer might have helped himself by using more force in promptly subduing suspect #1, giving him the ability to address suspect #2 on her own.

    E. There are different kinds of disagreements, one is when a commenter hasn’t read the background adequately and reslolution of disagreement comes by clarifying facts. Two is when people are starting at a different perspective and see things differently, sometimes this is resolved with discussion and sometimes not. Here, for example, there are people who see this situation as an unarmed 17 year old “girl” who is giving a cop a hard time and doesn’r “deserve” a strike to the face. Other people see it as a situation where somebody has physically interefered with an officer making an arrest when he is alone and outnumbered, and the officer is not only responsible for making the arrests, but to prevent the situation from getting out of hand by giving time for suspect #1 to break free and run handcuffed into said street, other onlookers to join in, or for the officer to lose possession of his gun in a scuffle and possibly be shot and/or along with bystanders. Perhaps the discussion will change the opinions of some who sincerely discuss to understand better, but often people will simply continue to disagree. The third type is when someone is more interested in making an argument for argument’s sake and does not care what anyone else says, they are around just to be obnoxious. They may provide entertainment for some, or useful in honing “junior debater skills”, but otherwise they are people who are always discussing something, and never coming to understand anything.

    MD in Philly (5a98ff)

  158. BTW I can’t stand jaywalkers, and wish that cops would hand out more tickets, albeit without punching the recipients in the face

    And then, when the persons to be cited just run away, or hit the citing cop, what then, Mr. Can’t Stand Jaywalkers But We Should Let Them Go If They Run Or Hit The Cops?

    Mitch (890cbf)

  159. #

    And I don’t agree that a “Get your hands off her” shove is hitting.

    Comment by nk — 6/18/2010 @ 2:23 am

    Are you implying that people here do not deserve your sincere and best discourse anymore, and instead are more worthy of this stuff you obviously don’t actually believe at all?

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  160. The Seattle Times is reporting that Mary Ellen Levias (girl not punched in the face) has pled not guilty to a charge of obstructing a police officer, and was to allowed to remain free on her personal recognizance.

    Interestingly,

    Levias was charged in February 2009 with third-degree assault after she allegedly pushed a King County sheriff’s deputy.

    According to charging documents, on Feb. 3, 2009, deputies were called to the Ruth Dykeman Children’s Center, a Burien center for troubled girls, in response to a report that Levias was being abusive toward staff. When Levias was confronted by Deputy Amy Zarelli, she pushed the female deputy, causing her to fall, charging papers said.

    Levias was given a deferred disposition — meaning the charge would be dropped if she stayed out of trouble — because it was a first-time offense.

    The article also states that King County Prosecutor’s Office is considering whether to charge Rosenthal [the person punched] with third-degree assault on a police officer.

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  161. If it was a first offence why was she in a center for troubled children?

    Trust me it was not a first offence. First charged offence maybe.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  162. Local NAACP president weighs in (at 1:16).

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  163. There is a certain percentage of the population who ignore lawful orders from police and try to walk away when ordered to stop.

    The police have a name for these people.

    They are known as, “People with warrants for their arrest.” Or occasionally as, “Criminals who have just committed a crime.”

    And that’s why the police don’t just let people walk away.

    Jose Cuervo (f5ddfe)

  164. “If you promise not to sue us for punching you in the face, we won’t charge you with third degree assault for shoving this cop by his arm.”

    Chris Hooten (e632ed)

  165. Jose, that’s actually a very good point. Someone who unreasonably reacts to cops, such as speeding off instead of taking the traffic ticket, often has a warrant. And look, one of them is on probation for hitting cops.

    Dana, the cop should mail Rosenthal and Levias those Hallmark Solar System theme graduation cards. On second thought, no.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  166. nk at 156 – People are people — not computers — even cops. But if you’re gonna got this officer slack for hitting this girl, you gotta cut her the same for shoving him.

    Wrong nk, because one is an unlawful act taken against a peace officer and the other is a legal manuever by the peace officer to take the person into custudy. Please review the rules regarding the use of force by law enforcement.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  167. nk and wooten, are you two being deliberately obtuse? WTF did you expect him to do? Did you read what Dunphy said about arresting combative females?

    nk, if you had finished the academy instead of quitting while in training, you might well now know what a tough thing it is to deal with combative women. Your talk about arms rotting off or whatever it was for hitting women, is just plain stupid, probably due to ignorance. Women are dangerous foes, they scratch, bite and poke at eyes. Like Jack said, there is a reluctance to lower the boom on them like is done for combative males. That is an error. He would have been entirely justified in taking them to the ground. Instead, he punched the one who attacked him which gave him time to finally gain control of the first gal. That works for me.

    A lot of comments were speaking to various control techniques. Look again at the video. He had her wrist twisted and bent in a position that would cause a male severe pain. She didn’t even notice it. Women are flexible another reason they are tough to fight.

    Cops are not paid to get hit, pushed, spat upon or battered in any way, shape or form. They are paid to keep the peace and they do their best to do that in as calm and restrained a manner as possible. Citizens have the final say on whether or not that happens. This entire incident was caused by the two females, not by the Officer. None of this would have happened had they followed the rules. It would not have escalated had they taken responsibility for their first actions.

    The job is tough enough without second guessing by academy dropouts and people without viable alternatives. I speak from 30 years of experience, both in the big city and in a college town.

    Labcatcher (f0ff08)

  168. Labcatcher @ 3:39 p.m.,

    Compelling comment. Thank you.

    Have Blue @ 11:46 a.m.,

    You are right regarding this not being her first offense,

    Previously, Rosenthal was charged in November with second-degree robbery. According to prosecutors, she punched a 15-year-old boy in the face while she and a group of youths were on their way to a rave in South Seattle last Aug. 28. The boy told police that his cellphone and $20 were stolen in the incident. A 14-year-old boy told police that he was punched in the head and his hat was stolen.

    Authorities say the case was dismissed when the boys refused to testify.

    In April 2008, Rosenthal was charged with third-degree theft after she allegedly stole a minivan in Tukwila, prosecutors said. Kent police said she used a screwdriver to break the ignition and start the vehicle.

    The charge was later amended to theft of a motor vehicle. Rosenthal was given a deferred disposition — charges would be dropped if she stayed out of trouble — because it was a first-time offense, according to the Prosecutor’s Office.

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  169. If it were a black cop and 2 white women how do you think that would have ended? Not so smoothly I assure you!

    IceMan 1 (b6fb4b)

  170. What rules?

    These ones? “Don’t panic. The man in blue in front of you is a police officer. Just take off your clothes, lay down, spread your legs, and do everything the nice officer tells you. And then after go to those showers over there. We’ll take care of the oven thing.”

    nk (db4a41)

  171. if monkey could fly
    out of iceman fat ass
    he have circus act

    ColonelHaiku (2ce3dc)

  172. nk – Coming from a guy who promotes genocide in other threads that is rich.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  173. My poems are easy to find on my right-hand sidebar. I’ve gotten more than 5,000 readers on “The Ballad of Kathryn Johnston”.

    nk (db4a41)

  174. “Seattle teen apologizes to cop that punched her”H/T- HotAir

    In announcing the charging decision, King County Prosecutor Dan Satterburg issued a written statement, saying ‘the law is clear, you can’t shove a police officer, period.’”

    AD - RtR/OS! (3b92f0)

  175. Ass in great shape buddy, so lets work on police reform k.

    IceMan 1 (b6fb4b)

  176. “Seattle teen apologizes to cop that punched her”

    Hooten – why would this innocent defenseless victim apologize?

    JD (d55760)


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