Patterico's Pontifications

6/8/2010

El Paso Border Patrol Agent Kills Attacker

Filed under: Immigration — DRJ @ 5:12 pm

[Guest post by DRJ]

A 15-year-old Mexican boy was shot and killed yesterday by a U.S. Border Patrol agent near the Paseo del Norte bridge in El Paso, Texas. Reports say several agents had been attacked by illegal immigrants throwing rocks.

Mexican authorities have objected to the use of guns in response to a rock attack as a “disproportionate use of force.”

— DRJ

434 Responses to “El Paso Border Patrol Agent Kills Attacker”

  1. rocks have been classified as deadly weapons since David killed Goliath.

    moral of the story is, if all you have is a rock and the other side has guns, don’t be ah a55hole, or you might wind up a DEAD a55hole.

    if the Sergio’s parents want sympathy, its in the dictionary, right between “5hit” and “syphilis”. hopefully their other kids are smarter, or at least fast learners.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  2. “Preliminary Investigation Report Results Released”

    Your guys threw rocks at our guys, trying to hurt or kill them.

    Our guys had guns and used them to protect themselves.

    Your guys died.

    Any questions?

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  3. moral of the story?

    never bring a rock to a gun fight.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  4. http://www.whoseparanoid.com/pb/bpaal.avi

    Hope this works this was another kid shot dead

    EricPWJohnson (92b383)

  5. While I can feel a certain sympathy/sorrow for the kid and his family, that is tempered by the realisation that the gunshot fatality was self-invited … all the kid had to do to avoid getting shot was not to be caught doing anything both illegal *and* threateningly-violent …

    To complaints from my various friends who are proud members of the Projective Party, all I am likely to respond is that they must be proud to see such a living example of Darwin’s Theory of Evolution in action … (and, yes, the multiple layers of irony in my phrasing *are* intentional) …

    Alasdair (e7cb73)

  6. Wild guess, but if I throw rocks at Mexican cops I will be shot. Especially at their southern border.

    Mexico is not a very good friend.

    Similarly, I think the idea of sending a flotilla to aid the Kurds in Turkey is inspired. These people telling the good guys to just tolerate and be proportionate need to stop playing us for fools.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  7. Over 5,000 murders in Juarez in the past two-plus years, including two U.S. consulate workers earlier this year, and this is the shooting Mexican authorities are in a snit about.

    John (d4490d)

  8. Alasdair

    So if a bunch of college student start throwng things or a crowd starts yelling breaking windows over a sports championship the police should shoot to kill?

    After all someone could get hurt – the velocity of a rock after 15 ft is not lethal – might sting a bit – these kids could have been much farther away than that 20 30 feet or more

    Also when does a cop empty a clip at a bunch of rock throwers?

    EricPWJohnson (92b383)

  9. I saw on 24 once that Jack Bauer could actually shoot the rocks right out of the hands of attackers.

    That’s probably what the guards should have done. With rubber bullets (BPA free, of course).

    It’s not like they had no choice but to use their ranged weapon to defend their post, and that weapon is, by definition, deadly force. That would be silly.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  10. Rocks were used as tools of execution long before David and Goliath.

    Rocks are non-lethal after 15 feet? Are you nuts? Slingers were an integral part of armies for thousands of years. Their rocks were lethal at considerable distances. A heavy rock thrown on an arc will come down with enough force to crack a skull regardless of distance thrown or horizontal velocity. If you don’t have a shield and helmet then thrown rocks are potentially lethal weapons.

    Remember Kent State?

    Machinist (497786)

  11. Were these attackers breaking windows and yelling or throwing deadly missiles at the guards. These call for different responses.

    Machinist (497786)

  12. “There have been 17 Mexican nationals killed or injured during the first six months of 2010, officials said.”

    And how many Americans killed by illegal aliens in the same time period?

    Machinist (497786)

  13. hey Eric: i’m willing to bet i can throw a rock hard enough to seriously, as in life threatening injury, hurt you from 20-30 feet.

    all you have to do is arrange with Patterico to meet up with me in an agreed upon place, sign a formal release of all liability for me, since this a science experiment, and then just stand there while i throw rocks at you until i either prove my point, you give up and run away or my arm gets tired, in which case i’ll admit here that you were right.

    is this weekend good for you?

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  14. rocks thrown in anger
    shots fired and one yute down
    build that damn fence now

    ColonelHaiku (749d6d)

  15. You don’t tug on Superman’s cape…

    Gazzer (8511ff)

  16. One question….If I cross the border illegally into Mexico, then throw rocks at the Federales as part of a larger group (mob), the Federales will do what?

    1) Ask me politely to leave and walk away?
    2) Throw rocks back at me?
    3) Shoot at the group, possibly killing 1 person?
    4) Spray the group, killing and injuring many?

    My bet is it’s #4. But of course, we have no right to defend our borders. Only everyone else does.

    TurleysMom (9e7b91)

  17. I live near the border, Eric. A Border Patrol agent was killed a few years ago, when hit in the head with a very large rock. Sometimes your lack of common sense just floors me.

    And if Mexico doesn’t want them killed for throwing rocks, they should make sure they stay home. Obviously the 15 year old wasn’t just skipping school for the day.

    PatAZ (9d1bb3)

  18. Here’s a January 2010 incident in which an illegal immigrant assaulted a BP agent and his canine with rocks. The immigrant was shot and killed by the agents. The Mexican government also expressed concern about the case, which I believe is still under investigation.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  19. Why I wouldn’t be a cop. Throw a rock at me, i’ll shoot you. Spit on me and i’ll shoot you. Actually that’s why cops carry guns, to protect themselves from the animals of the world. If I’m on a jury there will no conviction in any case like this.

    Scrapiron (996c34)

  20. “After all someone could get hurt – the velocity of a rock after 15 ft is not lethal – might sting a bit – these kids could have been much farther away than that 20 30 feet or more”

    Another example of EricPW sharing the things he “just knows.” We are not worthy.

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  21. The BP Agent should have just walked away I guess, no reason to feel threatened by a group of people surrounding you throwing rocks at you. None at all.

    “The agent shot at a group of Mexican nationals who had illegally crossed into the U.S. about 6:30 p.m. after they surrounded him and threw rocks at him, said Special Agent Andrea Simmons, spokeswoman for the FBI in El Paso.

    Simmons said he had been with other agents but was by himself at the time of the shooting.

    The agents were responding to a report of a group of suspected illegal aliens being smuggled into the U.S. There were three of them, she said.

    Two Mexican nationals were detained by the agents and the rest were given verbal commands to the rest of the group to stop and retreat. Instead, they surrounded the agent and threw rocks at him, Simmons said.

    That’s when the agent opened fire, she said.”

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  22. the velocity of a rock after 15 ft is not lethal Comment by EricPWJohnson

    Machinist and redc1c4 beat me to it, but I’ll give Eric a better deal, a whole 60 feet, the distance from a baseball pitcher where a batter has a helmet to protect his head from serious injury from a baseball.

    We know a new thing about Eric, that he never played much baseball, or he would have a healthier respect for thrown rocks.

    MD in Philly (5a98ff)

  23. It’s a bat and a ball, not a rock, but little objects can do big damage.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  24. MD in Philly – EricPW’s comments in a thread usually start out including a ginormous asspull, as you and others have rightly pointed out in this one and the ones relating to O’Keefe’s arrest in New Orleans.

    On the Kathleen Parker thread, he took Dustin to task over Nikki Haley’s calls for accountability in the SC legislature as follows:

    “South Carolina as most states have anonymous votes, when its characterized as breaking new ground is sooo much poppycock. Since like forever its been the norm in last I checked at least 2/3rds of the Union since before the civil war – thats a fake attention getting crusade by Haley for briwnie points for a run for state office – cynical and calculated”

    It’s unclear exactly what he’s referring to, but not all states require 100% roll call votes and it is clear that SC has very little accountability, which is Haley’s issue. From the same article:

    “What the conservative think tank found is that the House called roll on 8 percent of the bills that became law this year, while the Senate did so only 1 percent of the time. That practice is at odds with standards in most states nationally and in South Carolina’s neighboring states.”

    “All but nine states have a constitutional requirement for roll-call votes on final approval of legislation, according to information provided by the National Conference of State Legislatures. Requirements in Georgia, Florida and North Carolina are guided by a mix of constitutional provisions and legislative rules.”

    As usual, on closer inspection, EricPW’s assertions appear all wet.

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  25. What if he was inside my house and throwing rocks at me?

    Arizona Bob (e8af2b)

  26. Just based on what’s in the article, I’d have to give the benefit of the doubt to the agent. Rocks can be very dangerous, especially if there was a whole group of people throwing them. It also says this happened at night, which would have added to the confusion and made the agent more fearful for his safety.

    Nels (3e56d7)

  27. EPWJ has spent loads of time trying to build his bona fydies as a concern troll when, in actuality, he’s nuttin but a troll. While PhD types spend lots of time in post-doctoral studies to learn more and more about less and less to the point they know everything about nothing, EPWJ went the other way. He worked to know less and less about more and more until he reached his goal of knowing nuttin about everything.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  28. Guys, guys !

    We are just being mean and uncaring conservatives !

    After all, if EPWJ threw a rock at any of us from more than 15 feet away, the rock wouldn’t do any harm – and here we are, making fun of the poor guy who cannot even throw as well as a young girl

    (Disclaimer: I’m a Scot and a sailor for sporting choice – ball games are Not My Thing – from 15 feet away, as long as I am aiming at you, you are most likely safe unless I accidentally throw it along the correct line – in which case you are gonna hurt !)

    Alasdair (205079)

  29. — the velocity of a rock after 15 ft is not lethal —

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 6/8/2010 @ 5:36 pm

    Throwing rocks is meant to harm human beings and that is why moral people believe that such behavior is wrong. Hard objects thrown with sufficient velocity can harm and kill.

    Recent liberal rallies seem to embrace such violence or excuse it as not being serious. Such thinking is morally wrong and factually false.

    A person charged with breaking up such a demonstration — especially if he is by himself — may easily find himself in a life or death situation.

    Cannot help you with your morals, but can with your falsehood — here’s a quick force calculation of a thrown rock (modeled on a baseball):

    Mass (M): 0.145 kg
    Velocity (V): 40 m/s
    Stopping Distance (d): 0.0127 m
    Force (F): 9134 N or 2053 lbs

    F = M X acceleration
    F = M X (V^2) / (2 X d)
    F = 0.145 X 40^2 / (2 X 0.0127)
    F = 9,134 N
    F = 2,053 lbs

    So, a 5.5 oz rock traveling at 90 mph strikes (say) a human head and stops within a 1/2 inch, yields as much force as a 2,053 pounds.

    Here are some adjusted parameters:

    (Mass, Velocity, Stop dist, Force) –> “ounces”, mph, inches, lbs

    (5.5, 90, 0.25, 4107)
    (5.5, 80, 0.25, 3326)
    (4.6, 80, 0.25, 2753)
    (4.6, 70, 0.25, 2175)

    (5.5, 90, 0.50, 2053)
    (5.5, 80, 0.50, 1663)
    (4.6, 80, 0.50, 1376)
    (4.6, 70, 0.50, 1088)

    Pons Asinorum (0ae484)

  30. Pons: are those Foot/Pounds as in ballistics tables for ammo?

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  31. as in 45 ACP: 230 gr (15 g) Speer Lawman FMJ

    830 ft/s (250 m/s) 352 ft·lbf (477 J)

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  32. Hey Red:

    They are not foot pounds, which are units of energy (i think).

    The mess i made are in units of force — directly converted from Newtons.

    That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

    Not 100% sure about the ammo tables, but my force calculation and your numbers yield a really big number (where the bullet stops at 1/2 an inch):

    Mass: 0.015 kg
    Velocity: 250 m/s
    Stop dist: 0.0127 m

    F = 36,909 N or 8,297 lbs

    Something like that anyway.

    (gonna catch some zzz’s, see ya tomorrow Red).

    Pons Asinorum (0ae484)

  33. “After all someone could get hurt – the velocity of a rock after 15 ft is not lethal – might sting a bit

    This is the mark of an idiot. The same idiot we’ve been ridiculing for writing moronic things in the comment section of this blog for months now.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  34. If the Obama Administration had any brains they’d say to Mexico, “If your people break into our country and start throwing rocks at our border officers, damn right we are going to shoot, but now orders are to shoot to kill. If you don’t want your illegal aliens shot, make sure they don’t throw rocks at our Border officers and better yet, stay home any you take care of them.”

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  35. While PhD types spend lots of time in post-doctoral studies to learn more and more about less and less to the point they know everything about nothing, —- went the other way. He worked to know less and less about more and more until he reached his goal of knowing nuttin about everything.
    Comment by John Hitchcock —

    I do not know if that is original, it is a wonderful twist that ought to go in the PP’s book of Quotations, Anecdotes, and Other Vital Things to Know

    Comment by Pons Asinorum
    Now that’s documentation of an article.
    Pons, I imagine you have long ago solved the oil leak in principle, but no one is taking your advice, right? (I say “angioplasty” it, or go back to the first containment vessel and send down a microwave emission probe that can warm things up enough to keep them from freezing. This has to be easier than everyone is making it seem.)

    MD in Philly (5a98ff)

  36. Eric P’s still welching on making good on the bet he lost, after screeching about O’Keefe’s certain felony conviction on phone tampering. He was wrong, wrong, wrong – so he either pays up or STFU.

    Dmac (3d61d9)

  37. Thanks, MD. I can’t claim originality on that quote. I would say it’s like women’s softball. It’s not baseball, it’s different, but it’s the same.

    I remembered something I heard decades ago and felt it to be apt. It was something along the lines of expert v renaissance man.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  38. MD in Philly, the problem with wells at that depth is that the well “freezes” up easily with methane clathrate because of the pressure. If you look at a phase diagram you see that at those depths it is difficult to get the water warm enough to stay in the gaseous phase. Some of the bizarre physics of petroleum and water depth. There are such deposits on the sea floor sediments in a lot of the continental shelf.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  39. chuck a few big rocks
    at Eric PW Johnson
    cherry blossom June

    ColonelHaiku (a82382)

  40. So you are counting “PW” as two syllables?

    Interesting artistic choice….

    SPQR (26be8b)

  41. SPQR-

    Thank you for the info. While I haven’t looked up such details, I do remember phase diagrams and understand your point.

    Two questions:
    1. Is there any way this “problem” can be turned into an answer? To enclose the well head and let the frozen methane clathrate build up and plug it?
    2. What about using a large microwave device/s to? I know that there are powerfull microwave devices used by the military if nowhere else. (There was a sad incident where the microwave device on a jet fighter was momentarily turned on while being serviced on the ground. There was somebody in the path, who was essentially “cooked” on the inside and died a few days later.)

    MD in Philly (5a98ff)

  42. first cup of coffee
    often not enough to clear
    haiku laser mind

    ColonelHaiku (a82382)

  43. SPQR wit
    leave haiku gasping like a
    Sumo in Summer

    ColonelHaiku (a82382)

  44. Colonel Haiku needs
    more coffee before posting
    or all Hell breaks loose

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  45. MD in Philly, I think that the well pressure is enough to blow out a clathrate plug. I don’t think a military radar will work at those depths.

    ColonelHaiku – ** applause **

    SPQR (26be8b)

  46. There was a young man from Japan
    Whose poetry never did quite scan
    When asked why
    He made the reply
    I don’t know but I think it may be that I try to cram as many words in the final line as I possibly can.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  47. Roses are red,
    Violets are blue,
    Throw another rock,
    and I will shoot you.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  48. I want to see what the response would be if I threw rocks at the Mexican Army tanks that are parked on the streets of Cd Juarez or perhaps a drug cartel lieutenant’s car?
    BTW, this area is known for this type of activity. The msm will paint this story as a horrific tragedy. It is tragic that a fourteen year old boy had learned that it is okay to behave like this. I suppose he had never truly been taught that the consequences could be severe, possibly deadly?

    norma (aaa8a0)

  49. norma, I agree with you. The government that tells these kids it will be tolerated if they break the law… that they are even kinda noble or something for doing so, and have let this problem scale up to this level, are much more responsible for this attacker being shot than the border patrol agent who simply followed the first general order.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  50. No, Dustin, they have been taught that they have nothing to lose. First fill their bellies then teach them virtue.

    (I disagree with Eric, BTW. Anybody who has played baseball knows what happens when a hard thing hits you hard.)

    nk (db4a41)

  51. Danger of Haiku,
    is potential contagion.
    Would sites appeal Fall?

    Machinist (497786)

  52. Haiku not poetry
    Lazily playing with words
    In a hot season.

    nk (db4a41)

  53. Stupid little dumbass. May he rest in peace.

    nk (db4a41)

  54. nk, there is some truth in what you’re saying.

    Of course, there’s no truth in the idea, which this kid may have had, that he had nothing to lose. He lost his entire adult life and his chance to fight for reform in his corrupt country of Mexico. Mexico’s powerful are delighted that those harmed by their crushingly terrible government can just flee to the USA. I’ve always noticed a great nationalism in Mexicans I work with and wondered why Mexicans tolerate their country being the way it is.

    The only way these people who keep coming from Mexico in search of a way to feed their family is if Mexico is fixed. America constantly absorbing these people as best it can is not a sustainable or adequate solution, since Mexico constantly produces people who have ‘nothing to lose’. So when you say ‘fill their bellies’, who are you telling that to? the USA? We can give these people everything we own and the problem will only get much worse in ten years.

    My opposition to illegal immigration is primarily rooted in my sympathy for these people who are being catered to by a lot of crooks. I want them to be able to build a great life in Mexico or in the USA by following some fair immigration system (but really, the vast majority of these people would probably wish to stay in their home country if it wasn’t so broken).

    We need to see the forest for the forest in this case.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  55. Spit on me and i’ll shoot you

    Wow. What a wimp you are.

    libarbarian (90bd00)

  56. Three thugs trying to kill a Border Patrolman are not just hungry kids looking for a job so they can send money back to Mom and the sisters. The next American they met would probably not be armed and would probably have been left for dead. Hungry kids in Mexico don’t try to brain Mexican police with rocks. Why?

    Machinist (497786)

  57. Comment by Dustin — 6/9/2010 @ 9:46 am

    There is no better/worse example of a failed Socialist/Crony Capitalist/State Corporatism mess than what we see in Mexico resulting from the PRI ascendency following the Revolution against Diaz.
    Every Progressive dream has been implemented in that country over the last century and the only reason it hasn’t come apart violently is the ability to off-load the social pressure to El Norte.

    AD - RtR/OS! (f15c7c)

  58. AD, it’s really tragic. I bristle when people act like they don’t care about illegal immigrants, but I don’t think that’s really what’s driving immigration reform.

    I think a lot of people recognize that amnesty is not sustainable, and then there are those like you and me who think Mexico’s massive problems should be solved instead of off-loaded. This is well understood by Mexican leaders, and why they are violently opposed to their neighbors treating them as they treat us.

    You bring up another point in associating socialism with crony capitalism. They really are highly related. A USA with the far left’s wishlist of reforms would have plenty of billionaires… they would just be a ruling class of democrats.

    Anyway, I’m not surprised nk has a lot of sympathy for people who just want a better life and don’t have the luxury of thinking about transcontinental politics (even if this attacker was really just a wannabee killer). Everyone should feel sympathy for Mexicans who have had their lives ruined by ‘progressives.’

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  59. I don’t have sympathy for them, as they have acquiesced in their own ruination. I really think that there is something pathological within Mexican culture that is at the heart of this; otherwise, they would have changed things for the better.

    AD - RtR/OS! (f15c7c)

  60. AD, I wonder if people will be saying that about us in 20 years (and I wonder if they will be right).

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  61. Dustin and nk, these people know that the consequences for their actions are mild to nothing. At one time, there was a stretch of road that ran along the river where they would place rocks and other objects to force cars off the road. They would then rob the drivers. Since BP has been monitoring the area, those events have been curtailed. Make no mistake, this kid and the hoodlums that he was with brought this upon themselves. These BP bike riders are very friendly. They are the first to respond to an accident or drowning.

    norma (aaa8a0)

  62. I don’t know that sympathy is the right word. Or pity, even. Regret for a wasted life? Goddamn that country that leaves its children only this.

    nk (db4a41)

  63. I really think that there is something pathological within Mexican culture that is at the heart of this; otherwise, they would have changed things for the better.
    Comment by AD – RtR/OS! — 6/9/2010 @ 10:41 am

    Respectfully, the same could be said for much of the United States. It’s not Mexican nature, it’s human nature that needs to be guarded against.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  64. Well, norma, I feel no sympathy for this punk who was smuggling and then trying to murder our border patrol. And in that situation, I think our border patrol have to defend their post (our borders).

    I don’t conflate this attacker with Gabby, the lady who washed dishes in the restaurant I worked at when trying to pay for school. She had to break our laws in order to feed her family. I feel sympathy for her because her country was ruined. Granting amnesty to her would only make things worse. Ideally, people like her would have had to remain in Mexico and fix their country. I’ve actually known quite a few illegal immigrants… part of the reason I sympathize with them is that they have to deal with this system that benefits crooked politicians on both sides of the border, and smugglers like this kid.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  65. Dustin, if the US tacitly did not endorse this illegal migration, Mexico would have to fix itself. The people of Mexico want a better life. We are the easiest way to that dream. This is not the solution. The Mexican government is corrupt beyond recognition. Their people know it, but it is far easier to run away than to fix it.

    norma (aaa8a0)

  66. norma, that’s exactly right.

    I think we should go farther than simply stopping illegal migration and demand reforms in Mexico if we are to trade with them. They clearly need a nanny. I think we’ve been a bad neighbor to tolerate this suffering, and Mexico feels fine with lecturing us on far less.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  67. Mexico is nothing without the US holding their hand. They know it, but our POTUS does not.

    norma (aaa8a0)

  68. Here is a list of all agents killed in the line of Duty

    http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/border_security/border_patrol/border_patrol_officer_memorial/chron_listing_agents/

    I may have missed it, but there are extremely few deaths by illegal immigrants and I didnt see any from rock throwing

    1990 – 2004

    2005 no Patrol deaths

    2006 2 BP agents killed in traffic accidents

    2007 4 died 2 in traffic, 1 drowned, 1 of Cardiac arrest

    2008 1 BP agent murdered by gunfire, 1 died of natural causes

    2009 1 Killed by drug dealers, 1 died of natural causes

    EricPWJohnson (d624f0)

  69. Comment by MD in Philly — 6/9/2010 @ 7:38 am

    Thanks MD, but full disclosure; I am not an engineer or mathematician. My idea would be along the lines of: “Okay boys, let’s find some really big rocks…”

    Truthfully, I’ve no idea what to do about the oil-spill, but really like your angioplasty idea!! I wonder if there is a deep-well equivalent.

    Pons Asinorum (0ae484)

  70. Goddamn that country that leaves its children only this.

    Comment by nk — 6/9/2010 @ 11:00 am

    Well said NK.

    Pons Asinorum (0ae484)

  71. I may have missed it, but there are extremely few deaths by illegal immigrants and I didnt see any from rock throwing.

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 6/9/2010 @ 11:22 am

    Yeah, and extremely few killed by .50 caliber rounds. Maybe we should tolerate our Border Patrol agents to get shot by those too.

    Eric, you sound like the old liberal hippie:

    The liberal hippie purchased his van and drove it for a few years. One day, the engine died and refused to start. After taking the van to a mechanic and being told that several parts are in need of replacement, the liberal hippie refused to beleive him. The knowledgeable, hard-working, experienced mechanic asked the liberal hippie why. “Becasue” the liberal hippie said, “it ain’t never done that before.”

    Pons Asinorum (0ae484)

  72. I may have missed it, but there are extremely few deaths by illegal immigrants and I didnt see any from rock throwing

    how many deaths by illegals is an acceptable number for you?

    how many have to die from thrown rocks before you’ll see a problem?

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  73. Rocks have been lethal weapons since before recorded history. Armed Border Patrol agents have never before been expected to allow thugs to kill them with rocks. It seems we now are to require it?

    Bull! Are they to allow themselves to be stabbed with knives as well? I hear knives only penetrate 1 1/2″ so they will only sting a bit.

    Is this to apply to police as well? Thugs may kill them with rocks and lethal force may not be used to stop them from doing so?

    Machinist (497786)

  74. so 6 agents murdered since 1997 – 2 by Americans

    so 4 agents killed since 1997 through today

    One every three years, 1 by car so 3 agents killed one every 4 years by guns

    Considering that the BP’s numbers are up from 3400 in 1997 to over 20,000 today – thats an interesting incident rate drop

    Also internet searches for agents injured or hospitalized by thrown rocks has yielded no results so far

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  75. I threw in the low 80’s in high school. I would volunteer to be the hurler to test out that theory that EricPW floated.

    JD (9d466a)

  76. As I mentioned, they were never required to let someone kill them with rocks before. They are armed and were always allowed to defend themselves. Why change this? Who will do this job if they are not allowed to defend their lives? You?

    Machinist (497786)

  77. One every three years, 1 by car so 3 agents killed one every 4 years by guns

    How does this relate to anything? You’re just randomly trying to understate the risk to border patrol agents. And what is the logical relevance of your point? Are you actually arguing that there aren’t enough border patrol agents being killed to justify someone defending themselves from a deadly weapon? How does that work?

    Did you donate $500 to Breitbart’s legal fund yet (this was the defense to the bet claims, that you were just promising to donate rather than making a poor bet)? You used the term “I will”.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  78. Also internet searches for agents injured or hospitalized by thrown rocks has yielded no results so far

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 6/9/2010 @ 11:53 am

    Also no results for agents being killed or hurt by: garrote, clubbings, knifes, C-4, RPG, etc, so… (/liberal-logic on) those are not threats either. Pure genius.

    Pons Asinorum (0ae484)

  79. No border agents were eaten by tigers, therefore if a tiger should be let loose to attack an agent, they should not worry, as it will only sting, since none of the agents have died from that before. Good Allah, stupid like that should be painful.

    JD (5546f2)

  80. It is, though maybe not for him.

    Machinist (497786)

  81. He is not debating but just trolling and I’m ignoring my own beliefs on feeding trolls, so good day.

    Machinist (497786)

  82. I just hate seeing you spend any time on that person, Machinist. I understand that you are true to your ethos, but the term “pearls before swine” seems appropriate.

    We should try to force this person into a wager about being an intellectually honest poster, or leave. That is a bet everyone would approve of, I assume.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  83. EricPWJohnson,

    Really now, you can do much better than this if you are interested in making a serious point. The first rule of holes is “stop digging”. You could have realized you overreached about rocks not being lethal and still said you thought there was disproportionate force used, instead you try to hang on with an increasingly ridiculous line of illogic.

    Other people here know more details about weaponry than I. I remember once somebody talking about having a shotgun loaded every other cartridge as birdshot or deer slug, or something to that effect, so you could shoot with a slug intended to kill or with a scatter if there was enough distance that would be more debilitating. I know “rubber bullets” can be lethal, but obviously when shot at a torso are less so. Do any law enforcement officers in a crowd control situation have weaponry with ability to fire lethal ammo vs. “stun”/”warning” ammo? It does seem that it would be good for an officer to have an option between saying “stop” and shooting when not in close enough distance to use a Tazer, billyclub, etc.

    MD in Philly (5a98ff)

  84. The kid was a known smuggler.

    “Huereka was charged with alien smuggling in 2009, according to sources who requested anonymity. Further details were not immediately available.

    “He is a known juvenile smuggler,” a source told Fox News. He was also on a “most wanted” list of juvenile smugglers compiled by U.S. authorities in the El Paso area, sources said.”

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/09/mexican-teen-killed-border-known-juvenile-smuggler-source-says/

    norma (aaa8a0)

  85. Eric #74 regarding injured BP agents:

    Assaults on Border Patrol agents is a longstanding problem, especially with rocks. That’s why the Border Patrol spokesman in the El Paso incident pointed out that agents have been seriously injured by rocks and it’s a “problem all along the border.” That statement is supported by a recently released report that said an average of 3 agents a day are assaulted on the border:

    Assaults on Border Patrol agents have massively escalated in recent years, according to the Justice Department threat assessment, which was released on March 25. “Assaults against U.S. Border Patrol (USBP) agents increased 46 percent from 752 incidents in FY2006 to 1,097 incidents in FY 2008,” says the assessment. Given that there are 365 days in the year, 1,097 assaults equals 3 per day.

    Contributing most to this increase were rocking assaults, which rose 77 percent from 435 incidents in FY2006 to 769 incidents in FY2008,” said the assessment. A “rocking assault,” the assessment explains, “is defined as the throwing of rocks at Border Patrol agents by drug or alien smugglers with the intent of threatening or causing physical harm to the agent.”

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  86. DRJ, wow, thousands of violent attacks on our border patrol agents! And it’s skyrocketing? I had no idea it was this bad. I think some of this comes from the Mexican government and democrats demonizing the enforcers of our laws, often which rhetoric which forgives and glorifies the criminals.

    What’s remarkable is that even with so many assaults on our border patrol, so few are killed in defense of it. And Obama is going to spend a lot more time criticizing and suing Arizona than it will spend on upholding his oath… those troops he’s sending to Arizona won’t even be manning the border. They are turning our entire country into violent Chicago.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  87. Dustin,

    That report studied data through 2008. I suspect it’s even worse now.

    Also, isn’t it interesting that Fox News reports he was a “known juvenile smuggler” while the boy’s sister claims he was a good boy who wanted to be a police officer?

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  88. Nice article. I love

    “All my family wants is that the guilty pay for what was done to my brother.”

    Of course. He was just trying to kill people. The evil gringo who survived ought to pay cash money! I could snark that a human smuggler vs aspiring Mexican government agent or cop is hardly a contradiction.

    I wouldn’t be floored if we did give them some money, either. We seem to tax good things and fund bad things these days.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  89. Police officer in Mexico does not equate honor, but control.

    norma (aaa8a0)

  90. Sorry for being such a downer, but I spent many years in Mexico. I never said much, but I always watched.

    norma (aaa8a0)

  91. FBI states that Mexican soldiers pointed their weapons at the BP officers.

    http://www.kvia.com/news/23849075/detail.html

    norma (aaa8a0)

  92. This is how our BP was treated at the time of the incident.

    “The Mexican authorities accused the Americans of trying to recover evidence from Mexican soil and threatened to kill them if they crossed the border, prompting both sides to draw their guns, said the 16-year-old boy who asked not to be further identified for fear of reprisal.”

    norma (aaa8a0)

  93. It sounds like it’s getting even more tense in El Paso. Thanks for the update, norma.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  94. Comment by DRJ — 6/9/2010 @ 2:09 pm

    The really good smugglers are in the Police.

    AD - RtR/OS! (f15c7c)

  95. DRJ what do you make of the unruliness of the crowd that continued with the rock throwing?

    “Shortly after the boy was shot, Mexican soldiers arrived at the scene and pointed their guns at the Border Patrol agents across the riverbank while bystanders screamed insults and hurled rocks and firecrackers, FBI spokeswoman Andrea Simmons said. She said the agents were forced to withdraw.”

    norma (aaa8a0)

  96. norma,

    I think everyone knows the rules: The Mexican soldiers can’t come over to the U.S. side (although they do now and then in South Texas) and the Border Patrol agents can’t cross over into Mexico. So the soldiers and the crowd felt safe to act belligerent while they were on their side, but they were just close enough that the U.S. Border Patrol agents did not feel safe. It’s a fine line on the border.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  97. It is obvious that they (the Mexicans) have been conditioned by their leaders to display hostility towards the Border Patrol knowing full well that it will not be punished by their own government, and is a low-risk activity vis-a-vis the Border Patrol as long as it is not one-on-one.

    There are few rules south of the border, but many rules north of it, and the USA for that area demonstrated to those south of the border that the Border Patrol (and other U.S. agents) are on a very short leash, and relatively impotent in how they do their jobs.

    AD - RtR/OS! (f15c7c)

  98. Norma’s 95 is damn disappointing.

    We obviously should be able to defend our border from a band of rock throwing monsters, even if they are protected by guns. We should have called in air support fired some kind of dispersal agent like CS into the crowd, making clear we would escalate.

    Threatening our agents with Mexican soldiers, that they must abandon their posts or be killed or seriously harmed by rocks, is not acceptable.

    If we had this policy in place, this kid would still be alive because this fomenting of violence wouldn’t take place at all.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  99. I am reminded of the idiots that torment caged animals in a zoo, until one gets a little too close, and becomes lunch.

    Every now and then, the Darwin Rules have to be visibly explained/demonstrated to some people.

    AD - RtR/OS! (f15c7c)

  100. It’s very sad DRJ, but the rock hurling is not unusual. It is very common. My heart weeps for the mother of this boy. I could never imagine burying a child.

    Mexico must fix it’s country.

    norma (aaa8a0)

  101. Rock-hurling is almost an organized neighborhood activity in the area along the border between the San Ysidro crossing and the beach. It is so common, that unless someone is actually struck by a rock, it never gets written up in the San Diego paper.

    AD - RtR/OS! (f15c7c)

  102. When was the last time you heard about a Border Patrol Agent being killed by a chainsaw?

    When was the last time you heard of two people accused of killing the same Border Patrol Agent with a chainsaw and it proved not to be true?

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  103. Given the fact that there are many rock throwing incidents almost daily – there seems to be no news about it until someone usually a kid gets killed

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  104. EricPWJohnson is living down to his reputation.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  105. DRJ

    Was it a UNION spokesman or a official spokeman – there is a marked difference between the UNION spokesman and the department of homeland security

    Also – it maybe the news – many report a UNION spokeman as the official BP Spokesman

    Rock throwing is wrong, its more than irritating, unloading a clip at school boys is also not an appropriate response as well.

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  106. SPQR, why do you think he posts this kind of thing? It’s not like he has fans or people who respect his point of view. Or, at least, I don’t seem to read posts that support that.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  107. And this—

    “…Rock throwing is wrong, its more than irritating…”

    —has irony apparently lost on the poster responsible.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  108. MD in Philly

    You are correct, however that being said all baseball should be banned as a potentially lethal activity. After all the velocity of the ball after its been hit should kill correct?

    Given the fact that at any time 500,000 to 1,000,000 kids during the spring and summer are playing baseball/softball – whats the casualty rate 100 per day? 1,000 per day? Any per day?

    There is no doubt that the agents sitting on the border are subject to these attacks – and I am not condoning them – but looking also at the GAO reports – the incidents of rock throwing have not increased the work related hospitalization rates – also these atacks have been going on since the 90’s – they again are not a new thing – nor due they seem to be associated with the Drug running which unfortunately has caused the miniscule casulaties among the BP staff.

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  109. There have been no fatalities from border patrolmen being trampled to death by a moose, or by an elephant, therefore, should they see them, they should attempt to pet them, while making quick jerky movements. Also, no border patrolmen were killed by king cobras or black mambas, therefore, should they see one, they should lovingly attempt to pick it up with their bare hands.

    Eric – How in the world do you make it through a day? Do you volunteer to be the target to test out your theory that outside of 20-30 feet, rocks only sting?

    JD (de02cc)

  110. Rock throwing is wrong, its more than irritating, unloading a clip at school boys is also not an appropriate response as well.

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 6/9/2010 @ 5:13 pm

    EricPWJohnson,

    I heard TJ Bonner state that rock throwing is so prevalent at the border that it has literally become an issue of lethal intent. As such, the response is a lethal one as well. According to the report, the border patrol officer’s back was turned toward the instigator and as the rocks were thrown at him, he turned and opened fire. He was being assaulted while his back was turned.

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  111. The Khat boat must have just come in from Somalia, because EPWJ is trippin’ again.

    AD - RtR/OS! (f15c7c)

  112. THis issue that is getting side tracked here was –

    It it an appropriate response to respond with lethal force to children?

    Its really just a simple question, can a 15 year old throw a rock – 20 30 40 feet away – up hill at a BP agent deserve to be gunned down?

    What justification of deadly force would we approve then in the next riot in America? Should we expand this to all law enforcement?

    Are we willing to accept it?

    Yes these incidents are wrong – show me – teach me where this response is standard in other law enforcement communities?

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  113. Well, for this guy, talk is cheap. I like JD’s solution: since rock throwing is no big deal, perhaps he wouldn’t mind demonstrating in person by being a target. Since it is no big deal.

    I still find it hysterical that this human nullset, who spends every posting period throwing metaphorical rocks on this blog, is writing about the throwing of actual rocks.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  114. Since most of the “insurgencies” encountered in the World today feature teen-agers (and sub-teens) with AK’s and RPG’s, I think it’s safe to say that in any confrontation where lethal force is introduced of any kind (and a thrown rock is “lethal force”), it is proper to responde with lethal force in defense of your life and the lives of others.
    The teen-ager who crawls through your bedroom window at 0200 carrying a .357 doesn’t discriminate in who he’s going to assault, and your defense of yourself and/or your family shouldn’t either.
    If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.

    AD - RtR/OS! (f15c7c)

  115. And this is even funnier:

    “…THis issue that is getting side tracked here was –…”

    Considering the source.

    Notice how the goalposts move, and the straw men army set up. Either this person is drunk/stoned, or has seriously neurological defects, not to see the irony of his own statements.

    What a doof. Truly.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  116. “unloading a clip at school boys is also not an appropriate response as well.”

    EricPW – You have not offered up what you believe is an appropriate response for when the BP Agent believes his life is endangered. Let’s have it tough guy.

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  117. I say we let the 14 year old version of Strasberg throw the rocks at EricPW.

    JD (de02cc)

  118. Yes, Eric, it is acceptable to use lethal force against a 15-year-old throwing rocks. A 15-year-old male could be adult-sized and strong enough to hurl a rock with great force. El Paso Sector agents have been attacked by rocks 29 times since October and rocks can be deadly:

    [Former Border Patrol Sector Chief and current U.S. Rep. Silvestre] Reyes said “rockings” are common and dangerous.

    “When I was chief I used to have a rock on my desk just so people could understand, because when people say, ‘rocks,’ different people have different interpretations,” he said.

    Reyes said some rocks are the size of a baseball. They can endanger an agent’s life, and when an agent’s life is in danger he can use deadly force to defend himself, he said.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  119. As the man said: Don’t bring a rock to a gun-fight!

    AD - RtR/OS! (f15c7c)

  120. “unloading a clip at school boys is also not an appropriate response as well.”

    That’s a pretty nasty characterization. Al Sharpton level nastiness. This kind of person probably convicted the Duke Lacrosse players too.

    Unloading a clip. DRJ already cited the fact that many people have been seriously injured by this attack. I can use deadly force to protect myself from serious injury.

    Pretty sure this kid didn’t know what the hell a school was, either. He was dead the moment his country and family let him be a human smuggler. People like EPWJ are to blame for tolerating this horrible waste of life and condemning the most basic steps to preserve law and order.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  121. There is apparently a video showing that the agent did not cross into Mexico, as is being claimed by MSM.

    A U.S. official close to the investigation told the AP that authorities have a video showing that the Border Patrol agent did not cross into Mexico. In fact, the official said, the video shows what appear to be members of Mexican law enforcement crossing onto the U.S. side, picking something up and returning to Mexico. The official was not cleared to speak about the video and spoke only on condition of anonymity.

    Also, TJ Bonner’s comment:

    At least one rock came from behind the agent, who was kneeling beside a suspected illegal immigrant whom he was holding prone on the ground, Simmons said. The agent told the rock throwers to stop, then fired his weapon several times, hitting the boy, she said. The FBI is leading the investigation because it involves an assault on a federal officer.

    The agent was not injured, Simmons said.

    T.J. Bonner, president of the union representing Border Patrol agents, said rock throwing aimed at Border Patrol agents is common and capable of causing serious injury.

    “It is a deadly force encounter, one that justifies the use of deadly force,” Bonner said.

    Yes, firing back is a reasonable response, EricPWJohnson. Sadly that is the position our border patrol officers are forced in to by the *choices* of those in Mexico.

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  122. EricPWJohnson,

    It’s very reasonable to believe that not only did the rock throwers know that they were *choosing* to assault a law officer but that the law officer was also armed. With a gun. With live ammunition. Therefore, they fully and willingly took a very serious risk in *choosing* to assault that law officer, no? As such, did they have any reason to believe that the border patrol officer would not do whatever it took to defend himself upon attack?

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  123. Rock throwing is wrong, its more than irritating, unloading a clip at school boys is also not an appropriate response as well.

    In a nutshell, this is yet another fact-free opinion of an ignorant clown.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  124. Dana

    The boys body was found 6 or more meters from the border and the agent according to reports was 4 or more meters away from the border

    so we are talking uphill a ditance of 40 to 50 feet away – if indeed he was actually one of those throwng rocks

    DRJ

    And in those 29 incidents how many discahrged a clip into school children? Just curious

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  125. Just an innocent little school child, he was, huh? Could you possibly be any more mendoucheous? Will you volunteer to let me throw rocks at you from 20 feet? 30 feet? 40 feet? 50 feet?

    JD (de02cc)

  126. EricPWJohnson,

    Hernandez was found 20 feet (six meters) into Mexico, and an autopsy revealed that the fatal shot was fired at a relatively close range, according to Arturo Sandoval, a spokesman for the Chihuahua state attorney general’s office. Mexican authorities said a .40 caliber shell casing was found near the body, suggesting that the Border Patrol agent might have crossed into Mexico to shoot the boy.

    That would violate the rules for Border Patrol agents, who are supposed to stay on the U.S. side – and could open the agent to a Mexican homicide prosecution.

    A U.S. official close to the investigation told the AP that authorities have a video showing that the Border Patrol agent did not cross into Mexico. In fact, the official said, the video shows what appear to be members of Mexican law enforcement crossing onto the U.S. side, picking something up and returning to Mexico. The official was not cleared to speak about the video and spoke only on condition of anonymity.

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  127. I will never forget a conversation I had with my Mexican-American brother-in-law back in the early ’90’s. He had come into the country illegally as a teenager in 1970, but had subsequently done all of the right things… worked hard, married and raised a family, became a citizen.

    We were talking about children and I mentioned to him that I thought it was a shame and arguably immoral that such poverty was allowed to exist just across the border. He shrugged his shoulders, smiled and replied, “one thing you have to remember is that those people are not, don’t want to be and never will be our friends”.

    GeneralMalaise (a82382)

  128. all you ignorant people with foxnews syndrome should watch channel 17 on primer impacto, of this incident being caught on tape.
    he shot him point blank 3 times, kid tried to get away. then more BP officers, tried to cross into mexico to retrieve the body. thats when the federales showed up and almost ended up in a fire fight….
    shameless….

    Franco (850ab4)

  129. EricPWJohnson,

    You did not answer the question: Did they [rock throwers] have any reason to believe that the border patrol officer would not do whatever it took to defend himself upon being attacked? Did their *choice* to assault him come with a clear knowledge that he was armed and reasonable assurance he might shoot to protect himself?

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  130. he shot him point blank 3 times, kid tried to get away.

    If this is true, he will get the death penalty. the FBI says it’s not true. I trust the FBI a lot more than I trust any Mexican government source, of course.

    Do you have a link to the tape, though? I’d much prefer a gander at it. I don’t watch TV, so internet video would be the best.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  131. Dana – Actual facts, and basic logic and reasoning, are antithetical to EricPW’s style. It is much easier to debate when you can just make sh@t up.

    JD (de02cc)

  132. Thanks for sharing, Frankie.

    GeneralMalaise (a82382)

  133. i have a hard time throwing my PS3 remote across the room, let alone 50 feet..
    I hope you get to see the video so you can eat your own words of ignorance.
    and I hope this “peace officer” finds peace in a prison full of mexicans…..

    Franco (850ab4)

  134. Dustin – I would be willing to bet that Franco’s description and reality bear very little resemblance to each other.

    JD (de02cc)

  135. DRJ

    Reyes is a politician, and has not been a source of reliable information, his is also not an official statment nor an official position of the government

    SPQR

    Apparently there are dozens of the incidents weekly and only this agent emptied his clip into a crowd of school children in the Border Patrols 80 year history.

    So now when guns being pointed at the BP’s these incidents were not worthy of a deadly response but a thrown rock by a child 40 to 50 feet away – uphill was

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  136. Reyes ststment was not an oficial statement nor an official position

    sorry

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  137. i have a hard time throwing my PS3 remote across the room, let alone 50 feet..

    Then you are a damn pansy, franco.

    JD (de02cc)

  138. EricPW – Are you willing to be the target to test out your asspull? A simple yes or no will suffice.

    JD (de02cc)

  139. Dana

    Was the officer hit by rocks?

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  140. the lame leftwinger
    angrily taunts citizens
    but throws like a girl

    ColonelHaiku (a82382)

  141. Franco, there is allegedly a video that shows the very opposite of what you claim Primer Impacto shows on their tape. I suspect we will have to wait for the release of one or both tapes to know for sure.

    I also think that Mexico will not be neutral in this matter due to the hot button issue of AZ1070. This is a perfect storm worth exploiting to their advantage because, unfortunately, this is politics.

    (for that matter, in light of the Ramos/Campeon fiasco, I believe the U.S. may be still set in the default position of over compensating and assuaging our neighbors no matter what).

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  142. Why do I suspect that the longer EricPW comments, that this little old tiny peaceful schoolboy and the daisy picking crowd of schoolchildren will continue to morph into fairies and unicorns and little girls in pigtails playing jumprope while the boys in their sunday finest were just having a game of catch when a stray pebble landed 42.8 yards away from the murderous xenophobic border patrol agent, who then slammed a fresh magazine into his fully automatic submachine gun and opened fire into the crowd, spraying everyone within 400 yards with a storm of gunfire, while aiming primarily at women and children.

    JD (de02cc)

  143. “…This kind of person probably convicted the Duke Lacrosse players too…”

    Why, whoever do you mean, Dustin? It couldn’t be a person who is just, well, shooting off his mouth to stir the pot, could it?

    Hey, EPWJ. Are your ears burning? You have created quite the fan club here—because of what you write, and the fact that you are so full of the end product of silage that your eyes are brown.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  144. EricPWJohnson, no one has ever been killed or seriously injured by stones, that’s the only way you can factually support your claim that it can not be appropriate to fire on stone-throwers.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  145. ps3 playah
    a bumrush vato loco
    maricon on ice

    ColonelHaiku (a82382)

  146. Franco, where is a link to this video of the incident?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  147. Was the officer hit by rocks?

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 6/9/2010 @ 6:08 pm

    EricPW Johnson,

    Stop the childish game playing, man up, and answer the question. You’ve got more on the ball than having to rely on manipulative behavior.

    Now, the question was: Did they [rock throwers] have any reason to believe that the border patrol officer would not do whatever it took to defend himself upon being attacked – did their *choice* to assault him come with a clear knowledge that he was armed and reasonable assurance he might shoot to protect himself?

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  148. After 20 yards, it just stings, SPQR. Don’t you know anything, denier? 😉

    JD (de02cc)

  149. That is the only arrow in his quiver, Dana.

    JD (de02cc)

  150. Now, Dana, surely you know why PBJ Otter is actually posting here, right? It’s nothing but childish game playing.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  151. Dustin

    http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09824.pdf

    pgs 132 and 133 is interesting

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  152. Franco, if you are talking about this video then none of it matches your description at all. In fact, that video proves your dishonesty pretty clearly on several of your claims. You got another, cough up.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  153. Does that in any way surprise you, SPQR. I mean, franco just seemed so HONEST right from the get-go. I do suspect he was being honest when he said he couldn’t throw a small object 50 feet.

    JD (de02cc)

  154. JD, if the video I linked to shows the actual incident, then EricPWJohnson’s nonsense about geography are utter nonsense as well. Notice the confined nature of the concreted water course.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  155. EricPWJohnson,

    …still waiting… I’m going for a hike now and will check back later for your answer.

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  156. You’ve got more on the ball than having to rely on manipulative behavior.

    I agree. EPWJ is smart. This is not how a smart person argues unless they are trying to be a dick.

    EPWJ, perhaps I am reading the wrong pages, but I don’t understand your point with the PDF. Indeed, violent crime near the border has skyrocketed since the last huge amnesty push. It’s tapered off slightly and fluctuated, but it’s still way higher than it ought to be.

    Indeed, our border patrol are coming into contact with some dedicated criminals.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  157. I cannot get that to play on my FireFox, which is acting kind of quirky today, SPQR. Suffice it to say that I would take your word over franco and EricPW’s any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

    JD (de02cc)

  158. Dana

    I answered your question, was the agent in any danger, no

    Did the agent know this – yes

    Did any of his other fellow agents at the scene pull their weapons (probably not)

    Did any of the other fellow agents give covering fire – no

    There are alot of no’s here Dana

    only one decided to open fire – multiple times – and empty a clip into a crowd of school kids

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  159. Eric’s first statement, that the agent was in no danger is a fundamentally flawed position to take.

    JD (de02cc)

  160. only one decided to open fire – multiple times – and empty a clip into a crowd of school kids

    Does not match the video. At all, really. But then no one would expect that EricPWJohnson’s overblown rhetoric would ever match reality – given that it never has in the past.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  161. His fellow agents did not open fire

    Going by the professionally trained BP agents that:

    Were there…

    Witnessed the incident…

    Did not assess it the way this person did…

    Did not open fire…

    I’m going with them not the guy with the empty glock staring at a dead child at the bottom of a creek

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  162. Gosh, do you think that PBJ Otter has a, well, axe to grind?

    Tell me how he is different from nishi long about now? He isn’t a creepy, it’s true. But look at the weird syntax, misspellings, and the absolute certitude.

    I still think that he should stand there and let 15 year old juvies pelt him with rocks. Then we could ask him about the damage he received.

    Or better yet, why don’t we raise some cash to send him to the border and actually ride along?

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  163. SPQR

    Please provide a link to the video

    thanks lets all look at it

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  164. And I think he is trying to be a jackass in this thread.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  165. EricPW – He already linked to it above, moron. You never did answer – to test out your asspull that rocks only sting from beyond 20-30 feet, hell, let’s make it yards, would you be willing to be the target for the test?

    JD (de02cc)

  166. EricPWJohnson, you have a quote from one of the BP officers stating that he would not have fired, if he was in the same position as the officer who would? If not, your claim that the others did not assess the situation the same way is false.

    I’m really curious about one thing – what is it that makes you write these ridiculously over the top comments? What is it that just causes you to wriggle in your chair until you’ve typed out the overblown rhetoric you’ve become known for?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  167. EricPWJohnson, your incompetence is showing. I provided a link to the video at Comment by SPQR — 6/9/2010 @ 6:25 pm

    SPQR (26be8b)

  168. Breitbart’s indictment is going to happen any moment now. O’Keefe is convicted of tampering with phone, which posed a national security issue. Rocks only sting from beyond 23-30 yards.

    JD (de02cc)

  169. SPQR

    Sorry, I cant seem to find any video of the actual shooting

    Can you provide a link to the video of the actual shooting?

    This wold be very helpful – I see a dead child at the bottom of a very steep and deep concrete ravine

    thats all I am seeing

    I am back in Qatar so I cant see everything thats out there

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  170. Hmmm… Let’s see.

    EPWJ has opined on any number of issues.

    He has been dead wrong on each of them. Stashiu3 and Dustin have detailed some of them on other sites as well as here.

    Yet he keeps up the certitude.

    Either he is posting to be a jerk, or he is like that story Ronald Reagan used to tell, about the kid digging through the manure pile, insisting that there had to be a pony in there somewhere.

    I do hope that he quits with the blank verse approach, at the very least. It really does look like that lunatic nishi’s verbiage.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  171. Guys I cant see where which comment in SPQR actually find a video of the actual shoting as it went down

    please which comment number

    thanks

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  172. You’ve created all these opinions, EricPWJohnson, without seeing a video of the shooting itself?

    Well, that only proves my point. Look in the mirror, EricPWJohnson, the big red rubber nose and the large floppy shoes are your feet are the clue.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  173. You see what I mean, folks? Very similar to nishi.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  174. I’ve looked the the video that I think Franco is referencing, and its obviously a confused situation, with one Border Patrol officer out and exposed in the concrete gulley that is the river’s course.

    I can’t tell that its a good shoot from the video but there is enough there to conclude that EricPWJohnson’s overblown rhetoric is as usual utter nonsense.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  175. C’mon, SPQR. He watched “Colors” and “American History X.” He knows how the street is!

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  176. Eric Blair, I don’t care that EricPWJohnson has a different opinion that I might form on the incident.

    I care that he writes such obviously loaded propaganda. “empty a clip into a crowd of school kids” – that’s such a load of BS. He’s trying to invoke an image of indiscriminate shooting into a tightly packed group of eight year olds in school uniforms clutching their Spiderman lunch boxes.

    That’s not there on the tape.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  177. So the obvious question is, what is EricPWJohnson’s motivation for all of the greasy propaganda he writes here?

    That’s more interesting than the propaganda itself – no matter how stupidly written it is given his clear reputation for it – the question of motivation.

    I think we need to better explore that question of EricPWJohnson.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  178. EPQJ, your most frequent point on here is that the agent emptied his Glock.

    Was that truthful? That’s very unusual behavior, and my understanding is that two shots were fired.

    What’s your source on that claim you’re made repeatedly?

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  179. Come on, EricPWJohnson, just why did you write “empty a clip into a crowd of school kids”, without having seen any video at all, and when it does not match the incident?

    Why did you feel the need to write that particular propaganda?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  180. SPQR

    I really need your link to the video of the actual shooting

    Please

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  181. SPQR – I tried to address that same thing above, but you managed to do so in a more concise manner. The whole emptied his clip into a crowd of schoolchildren is the part of the meme that he is really heavily invested in.

    JD (de02cc)

  182. Based upon the statement by the Border Patrol that he was surrounded and opened fire

    Strange that the other agents did not support their fellow officer with gunfire as well

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  183. SPQR’s query is the one I find most fascinating too.

    I’ve seen EPWJ say things that are not consistent at all with being a liberal, and he often claims he very much wants the best for the GOP or Breitbart. I don’t understand how it works. I guess he could just think differently than I do, but his bull towards Nikki Haley has completely exhausted my willingness to assume the best.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  184. Yes, EricPWJohnson, you need the video.

    But that did not stop you from opining on the incident in such detail.

    Why did you feel the need to write the propaganda you wrote, without any basis?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  185. “opened fire” and emptied a clip into a crowd of innocent schoolchildren are not remotely the same thing.

    JD (de02cc)

  186. I’m sure that EricPWJohnson will show us the video he used to come to his bold, detailed, conclusions.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  187. Dustin

    Official sources are stating he fired “several” times

    Haley’s effectiveness as a gov is going to be reduced until she answers these charges and says why she called one guy 700 times and was at his house in the middle of the night several times

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  188. Now “several times” is the same as “emptied a clip” ? EricPWJohnson, what do you think the capacity of a .40 S&W caliber Glock is? Two? Three?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  189. SPQR
    Did you get the clip yet of the actual shooting?

    Thanks – I may have missed it

    DRJ

    Did you find ANY reports of serious injuries to BP agents from rocks – I cannot find any..

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  190. EricPWJohnson, when are you going to answer my question?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  191. DRJ

    Did you find ANY reports of serious injuries to BP agents from rocks – I cannot find any..

    Then you cannot find this thread.

    Further, Haley said she’s been faithful for her entire marriage. She’s answered all charges. It’s well debunked to all but the idiots. She calls people she works with and you’re lying about the rest of your claims. Sometimes liars say a few things that are truth and then throw the lies in.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  192. I’m out, y’all. Machinist had the right idea.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  193. Eric – Will you volunteer to be the test target for your theory that rocks only sting beyond 20-30 yards?

    Firing “several” times, again, is not remotely similar to emptying a clip into a crowd of innocent schoolchildren. It is like you are allergic to honesty.

    Eric – There were no serious injuries to border patrol agents from a piano falling on their head. I would caution you about standing underneath a piano, but that just may explain some of the erratic behavior.

    Breitbart to be indicted tomorrow. O’Keefe convicted of tampering with phones and compromising national security. Film at 11

    JD (de02cc)

  194. SPQR

    You’re right – maybe he only emptied half a clip before he came to his senses

    Do you wonder why the other agents didnt open fire?

    When will you post a link of the actual shooting?

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  195. SPQR

    But he did shoot a child many yards away

    that did happen

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  196. EricPWJohnson, I’m right that you wrote an unsubstantiated claim in your propaganda – a claim you knew you had no support for? Glad you agree that you are a propaganist.

    I already posted a link to the video I’ve been referencing.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  197. Now, EricPWJohnson, answer the question: Why did you feel a need to write propaganda here about that incident?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  198. Dustin

    Married woman calling a man 700 times?

    She claimed she was faithful and Folks was lying then Folks releases (Some) phone records showing 700 calls many in the middle of the night many lasting hour(s)

    guess I’m just supposwed to believe the one who hasent presented any proof

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  199. SPQR

    I need the link please

    I need the link showing the actual shooting

    Thanks

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  200. Knock it off, Eric. A Little Leaguer throws the ball hard enough to hurt an adult. And the ball is a lot softer and less massive and jagged than a rock. You’re just seeming foolish now.

    nk (db4a41)

  201. The serial fabulist is in rare form, again.

    JD (de02cc)

  202. EricPWJohnson, I know you need the video. I know that you’ve written detail claims about the shooting without having seen it.

    That’s the point. You are a propagandist.

    Now again: Why did you feel the need to write propaganda here?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  203. I need a link to Breitbart’s indictment. Pronto. While you are at it, a link to a study showing that rocks only sting beyond 20-30 yards would be nice. And a link to the agent emptying a clip into a crowd of innocent school children would help. That is all.

    JD (de02cc)

  204. nk

    And how many deaths are there from little leaguers?

    And if so nk, why on earth would anyone put their precious children in front of a certified death agent know as a junior high baseball pitcher?

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  205. did anyoen google baseball pitcher rock thrower deaths yet – I did – nothin

    guess even the israelis dont shoot rock throwers but what do they know about border security anyway?

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  206. Eric:

    DRJ

    Did you find ANY reports of serious injuries to BP agents from rocks – I cannot find any..

    1. In a comment above, I quoted former El Paso Border Patrol Sector Chief and current U.S. Rep. Silvestre Reyes saying he kept a rock on his desk to show how dangerous it could be.

    2. In February 2008, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff stated:

    Most of the assaults involve so-called “rockings,” in which drug and human smugglers throw rocks, bricks and other objects at agents.

    But Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said more serious incidents have been reported.

    “We’ve had occasions of people shooting at agents, trying to run agents down with vehicles, throwing large rocks or pieces of brick or concrete at agents, which actually can be fatal, and I’ve seen some pretty serious injuries that have resulted from it,” he said. “The levels have consistently increased.”

    3. In July 2008, an Arizona BP agent was injured after being hit in the head with a rock.

    4. In August 2008, a Border Patrol spokesman described the rocks agents faced following an incident in California:

    Throwing objects at agents is a common practice, said Reed, who described the projectiles as chunks of jagged concrete about as big as softballs.

    “Anyone hit with a rock that size can receive serious bodily injury,” Reed said.

    It sounds like you think the agents have to be hurt before they can act. Why is that?

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  207. Heh! I just remembered my high school coach getting a ricocheting grounder in the groin. He was a man, though. He went “Whooh” and then ran into the locker room so we would not see the rest.

    nk (db4a41)

  208. Why, DRJ? Because EricPWJohnson is a propagandist.

    We just need to figure out why he is. Something he refuses to tell us.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  209. Still waiting on

    DRJ’s information on rock throwing injuries or deaths or any other law enforcement agency anywhere in the USA that shoots to kill when someone throws a rock at them

    SPQR’s link to the actual shootings

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  210. Comment by EricPWJohnson — 6/9/2010 @ 7:28 pm

    Eric, baseball players throw to miss not to hit.

    nk (db4a41)

  211. I already provided a link to the video I was referencing, EricPWJohnson. Why are you writing propaganda here?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  212. No agents were injured by being bit by sharks, so they should not defend themselves when attacked by a shark. No agents were hurt being kicked in the nards, so if someone kicks them in the nards, they should just stand there and take it. No agents were hurt by an asteroid landing on their head, so if they see an asteroid flying at their head, they should just stand there, because they will not get hit.

    JD (de02cc)

  213. EPWJ’s claims about Haley are well disproven. I shouldn’t even bother to reply, but he knew he was lying when he said the agent emptied his ‘clip’, and he knows he’s lying about that.

    It’s really sick stuff, but there are people like that out there. I don’t understand why someone would lie about this agent like EPWJ did in this thread. I just don’t get it. Is this a moby? Is it astroturf? I don’t think so.

    I mean, here he is, lying about what he saw on video, and then admitting he hasn’t seen the video. How was that going to impress anyone?

    But I enjoy this blog more when I don’t engage the trolls, so I’m going to leave this alone. Just wanted to point out that his claims about Haley are not correct.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  214. To sum up: EricPWJohnson has admitted that he wrote propaganda that was unsubstantiated, and that he knew was unsubstantiated.

    But he won’t tell us why he is writing propaganda here.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  215. Dustin

    Sure I lied the kid was moved 20 feet inside the Mexican Side and the BP agent was on his tippy toes one inch from the border cuffing another kid

    when he responded by emptying part some or all of his automatic into a crowd of school children

    Now that rocks are considered a deadly weapon with the baseball analogies – are charges going to be filed against those pictures who hit batters crowding the plate?

    after all it is now a deadly weapon…

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  216. Again, EricPWJohnson, why will you not tell us why you write propaganda here?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  217. SPQR – The lightest goalposts we install weigh over 1100 pounds. He must be exhausted running around with those goal posts.

    JD (de02cc)

  218. SPQR

    Got that link to the shooting?

    Thanks, everyone is waiting

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  219. Oh, and by the way, EricPWJohnson, the people who the Border Patrol arrested were not “children”.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  220. EricPWJohnson, no one is waiting because I already linked to the video I referenced.

    Why are you writing propaganda here?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  221. Eric – If rocks are not dangerous, is it safe to assume that you will be willing to volunteer to test out your theory?

    JD (de02cc)

  222. Dustin

    I made NO CLAIM about HAley

    Just stated the fact that two guys have submitted some evidence and she has not addressed it.

    700 phone calls is alot of evidence – witnessess saying they saw her SUV is troubling

    A guy passing a lie detector test in front of the media is not the usual spurrious claim

    so – just pointing out information – personally I have no idea if HAley was faithful or not – given the fact that the gov she is replacing just had the same scandal that is brewing for her – dont you think a resonable person would not “just” take the word of a politician when more than one accuse her of being unfaithful – with them?

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  223. No answer, EricPWJohnson, regarding why you are writing propaganda here?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  224. SPQR

    I have stated I see no link and apparently neither has the world media

    Where is the footage of the actual incident?

    Thanks SPQR please repost the link – thanks

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  225. Emptied part of a clip into a crowd of schoolchildren is the meme that he is really really really invested in, SPQR. As you do, I wonder why.

    JD (de02cc)

  226. Breitbart to be indicted, any moment now.

    JD (de02cc)

  227. No, EricPWJohnson, you clown, I’m not going to repost a link I already provided … and which can be easily found from the link in the original post.

    Again, why are you writing propaganda here?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  228. SPQR

    I just cant find your link – and if you have posted it I sincerely apologize, and if it shows him staggering undr a hail of baseball sized stones pummeling his body I will be outraged and calling for the trial and imprisonment not only of the school children involved but those of his fellow officers who did not shoot to kill in his defense

    But I need to see the link to the actual shooting

    Please, I just cant find it anywhere

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  229. To sum up, EricPWJohnson has admitted that he wrote propaganda here, without any substantiation, knowing that he had no substantiation whatsoever for it.

    But he won’t tell us why he is a propagandist.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  230. I am always amused by people who present their own ignorance as if it was evidence of their claims.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  231. SPQR

    Please post your link to the ACTUAL shooting

    dont see it anywhere

    Thanks

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  232. EricPWJohnson, I’ve already linked to the video I referenced. It can also be found from the link in the original posting.

    Your incompetence is not an argument.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  233. EricPW – Do you think it is an accurate description that the officer emptied a clip into a crowd of innocent schoolchildren?

    JD (de02cc)

  234. Well, we have seen the EricPWJohnson is a dishonest propagandist.

    I’ve amused myself enough.

    SPQR (26be8b)


  235. Thanks, everyone is waiting

    Multiple personality disorders are unpleasant. And all of his are dishonest trolls.

    Eric Blair (e2121c)

  236. Also, he does write like nishi. You don’t suppose…?

    Eric Blair (e2121c)

  237. Leaving you for pizza and Netflix. Good night, all, and take it easy on Eric.

    nk (db4a41)

  238. I’m sure this topic will keep everyone going for a long time, but generally speaking, throwing rocks at someone with a gun does not represent the highest level of survival instincts.

    Ag80 (1b8eea)

  239. From this article:

    # Aug. 10, 2007: Juárez resident Jose Alejandro Ortiz Castillo was shot after he attempted to assault a Border Patrol agent. Four people — Ortiz, a woman and two other men — attempted to cross into the United States illegally.

    Ortiz, who was carrying a pair of bolt cutters, was shot after he picked up a rock and attempted to assault the agent.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  240. From the same article,

    June 27, 2007: A Border Patrol agent trying to rescue a drowning immigrant shot at a smuggling suspect, who allegedly threw rocks at the agent, hitting him in the head. Officials said the alleged smuggler was not injured. The agent was treated for a concussion and cuts to the head.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  241. So EricPWJohnson has no reason to wait on anything.

    He will now supply the answer to why he writes propaganda here.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  242. “empty a clip into a crowd of school kids”

    EricPW – I have seen no accounts about emptying a clip, but instead of school children, shouldn’t you call them feral teenagers?

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  243. daleyrocks, EricPWJohnson has already admitted that he fabricated “empty a clip”.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  244. Here’s a video that shows BP agents getting rocked, Eric. They are in vehicles protected by grates on the windows, and it’s still frightening.

    As I understand it, a law enforcement officer can use deadly force when there is an “immediate threat” to life. The determination is made based on the split-second judgment a police officer must use, not in hindsight.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  245. EricPW – You have stated that shooting at the feral teenagers is not an appropriate response, but you have not offered up what you believe is an appropriate response for when the BP Agent believes his life is endangered. Let’s have it tough guy. Should it all be fun and games for the feral teenagers until a BP Agent is seriously injured or killed as your comments seem to imply?

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  246. That’s not “hindsight” that EricPWJohnson is employing, DRJ, it is propaganda.

    And we’ve still no answer as to why.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  247. “Thanks, everyone is waiting”

    EricPW – You seem to be the only one. How did you make your assertions without the video?

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  248. DRJ

    I’m troubled that this incident lasted for more than just a few seconds and the officer according to the statement didnt respond in a split second decision he responded due to a lack of response to his repeated commands – according to his own spokes people

    Then why didnt the numerous other officers also open fire – it is policy to defend the lives of your fellow officers is it not?

    And that video still didnt show the actual shooting and was more of a propaganda piece yes police cars get rocks thrown at them all the time

    Is it a crime – yes – do we respond with gunfire – no

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  249. Why DRJ! Remember, this was the guy who just knew the truth about the Duke lacrosse team. He knows things!

    And based on posting style, he has been drinking steadily this evening.

    Eric Blair (e2121c)

  250. The video I linked was about rocking.

    It looked to me like SPQR’s video showed the shooting.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  251. SPQR

    Please, post the link to the video showing the shooting

    Daley

    A dead child 20 feet or more on the Mexican side of the border with an admitted statement by the border patrol that one of its officers demanded that a group of kids stop and approached them and opened fire several times

    How much more do you need?

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  252. EricPWJohnson, evidently you are at a loss for words to explain your propaganda here. Here are some suggested responses for you to choose from:

    (1) I am a clown that makes up stuff with no basis in fact or reality and posts it in comments, solely to make myself feel important.

    (2) I am paid to post things in Patterico’s comments that look ridiculous to undermine the conservative viewpoint that I falsely claim to represent.

    (3) I am a troll with no ideological foundation at all that posts nonsense and fantasies derived from a drug-induced haze because my fraternity requires this as an initiation.

    (4) I am Keith Olbermann in a dress.

    Any of those work? Or shall I compose more from you to choose from?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  253. I think it is a perfectly neutral non-judgey statement to say that this cowboy border patrol agent opened fire emptying a clip into a crowd of schoolchildren on their way to volunteer at an orphanage, brutally slaughtering one.

    JD (de02cc)

  254. We’ve established that you are a propagandist, EricPWJohnson. The only mystery is why you write propaganda. If we have to play “What’s My Line?” we will.

    Are you Adam Gadahn?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  255. JD – I’m surprised the BP Agent didn’t light the corpse on fire afterward.

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  256. I left that part out, daleyrocks. When he tried to put out the flames by pissing on the corpse, that description did not seem to be neutral, or non-judgey.

    JD (de02cc)

  257. EricPW – What is the appropriate response?

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  258. daleyrocks – obviously, they should be armed with Rahm’s super-soakers.

    JD (de02cc)

  259. I answered your question, was the agent in any danger, no

    EricPWJohnson, by default being a border partrol agent at the border puts him danger. You know this. There is an ugly border war going on and spilling over into the United States. Perhaps as you are in Qater, you’ve missed this critical piece of information.

    Did the agent know this – yes

    Because your assumption in your first statement is incorrect, this becomes moot. But I would say that quite obviously, the agent knew he *was* in danger. Why? Because he’s a Border Patrol agent. At the border. Where there is violence and death.

    Did any of his other fellow agents at the scene pull their weapons (probably not)

    Oh stop it. I could as easily say, probably they did.

    Did any of the other fellow agents give covering fire – no

    As far as we know.

    There are alot of no’s here Dana only one decided to open fire – multiple times – and empty a clip into a crowd of school kids

    There are a lot of “no’s” here, Eric, because you choose to make the ridiculous assumption that the agent was not in any danger. Again, in this day and age, by default border patrol agents are in danger every single time they go on patrol.

    But I digress, my original question to you – which you still have not answered but instead deflected (think I didn’t notice, eh?)… was,

    Did they [rock throwers] have any reason to believe that the border patrol officer would not do whatever it took to defend himself upon being attacked – did their *choice* to assault him come with a clear knowledge that he was armed and reasonable assurance he might shoot to protect himself?

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  260. you can call him Ray
    you can call him R J
    ya just dont call him johnson

    ColonelHaiku (a82382)

  261. No reason to let EricPW confuse the debate with the action or lack thereof of the other BP Agents nearby but not directly threatened by the rock throwing.

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  262. What video? http://www.ktsm.com/news/video-of-assault-on-bp-agent-shooting-may-exist

    It might exist? Nothing has been shown.

    The story on the news this evening tells a very different story. This video has yet to be released. A source does state that the video clearly shows that our BP never crossed into Mexico, however the Mexican police did cross over to collect shell casings.

    norma (4d2079)

  263. That video is in the hands of the FBI and is being reviewed.

    norma (4d2079)

  264. Did the BP Agent make 700 phone calls, content unknown, to the feral illegal border crossing teenager?

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  265. Did they [rock throwers] have any reason to believe that the border patrol officer would not do whatever it took to defend himself upon being attacked – did their *choice* to assault him come with a clear knowledge that he was armed and reasonable assurance he might shoot to protect himself?

    That’s a great question, Dana.

    I kinda wonder if it’s an obvious answer, though. A lot of people view the US as the nice guy who will take harm if that’s what it takes to avoid hurting others. Almost ‘turn the other cheek’. Human smugglers and terrorists and actually a lot of nasty folks out there see this as an opportunity. In that way, I’d say race baiters on this issue are partly to blame for the thousands of assaults on our border patrol agents DRJ linked upthread.

    On the other hand, throwing a rock at a man with a gun is suicidal.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  266. Does the BP Agent have a gay relative in South Carolina named Larry Marchant?

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  267. Dustin,

    Yes, it’s an obvious answer, and that’s the point. EricPWJohnson refuses to acknowledge that young men willfully and freely chose to provoke an armed agent in an extremely dangerous location while being fully aware that the chances of that greatly increased with every rock thrown. And yet they continued to throw. Intentionally.

    With that, I agree there is the image of the US as always taking the hit in order to avoid reacting strongly or appearing like the tough guy but I think its because in so many circumstances we have found ourselves negatively judged by the world and now we’re at the point where we give that outside judgement more weight and value than what we think of ourselves. In other words, we began caring more about what others thought of us and the downhill slide toward appeasement and people pleasing began. We’ve been redefining ourselves by others and in turn, we’ve begun to lose a lot of our identity as a country.

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  268. I think we’ve seen all we need to here. EricPWJohnson is clearly unAmerican in his repeated attempts to diss baseball and have it outlawed.

    After having attempted to give some advice to make him more respectable, he refuses to put down the shovel, but keeps digging.

    I will indulge the irrational with reason for a moment.

    The issue was not about whether baseball is a dangerous sport and should be outlawed, but whether a rock hurled by a teenager/young man could be dangerous. In fact, that is not really the issue either. The issue was whether rocks thrown by a mob of people could result in serious injury, for that was the situation.

    Instead of simply owning the fact that rocks can be dangerous when thrown, you go on some oblique attempt at reason by starting a campaign to outlaw baseball. You need to realize I am no longer going to give you suggestions as to how to improve your argumentation.

    MD in Philly (5a98ff)

  269. Dana, I admit, you’re totally right that there was a choice to use violence against the armed agent. That dead kid decided to enter into a world of violence and lawlessness.

    And you really cut through the BS with your point that we’re losing ourselves by trying to control how we’re seen. It’s a real mess and we haven’t impressed anybody with our appeasement. If every rock thrower was shot dead, and we reacted to the Mexican military the more obvious way (when they threatened our agents), this border would be a better place for everyone. Especially those on the Mexican side.

    I can only imagine how awful that area must be because we have allowed human smuggling to become an industry. Again, you could point out that it was Mexico’s choice.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  270. MD

    I was being tongue in check to the ridiculous assertions that one officer out of many decided to approach the kids and open fire with an automatic and kill a child

    Yes baseball has nothing to do with it

    And yes there is a dead child and a competely untouched agent

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  271. Daley

    So why didnt the other agents come running laying down covering fire as the man was in the last seconds of his life?

    Its a question thats being asked now isnt it

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  272. ^^^^^^
    Posting while intoxicated.

    It explains a lot.

    Eric Blair (e2121c)

  273. Intersting that none of the other agents apprehending and assisting the shooter fired as well

    Dustin

    If the Mexican Military fires on any US citizens – I would DEMAND that any citizen armed and in range be required to defend the country

    However the dead child did not have an assault rifle but a pair of nikes maybe…

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  274. Yup. The spelling, weird “blank verse” approach, odd punctuation and capitalization issues. Very familiar.

    Drunk or perhaps really nishi under another name. I wonder if they are one and the same. Nah. Nishi at least has some intellectual commentary, rather than solely overblown rhetoric. And she is far too slippery—when she gets skooled, she runs away for a while.

    Not PB&J Otter.

    And always, always a prat.

    Eric Blair (e2121c)

  275. “So why didnt the other agents come running laying down covering fire as the man was in the last seconds of his life?”

    EricPW – It is irrelevant to the BP Agent who fired his weapon isn’t it? Why can’t you stay on point. You don’t know exactly how close they were or exactly what they saw or heard so speculating on their actions and trying to draw conclusions from them is meaningless at this point.

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  276. EricPW – You still have not answered the question of your conception of an appropriate response.

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  277. C’mon, daley. By now he is face down in a pool of beer-y drool.

    Wait a minute. He “emptied the 12 pack,” don’t you think? Sort of like “emptying a clip.”

    Eric Blair (e2121c)

  278. As a firearms dealer, and someone with some familiarity with handguns, I’m interested if EPWJ could tell us what type of handgun being used by the Border Patrol has a “clip” that can be “emptied” at someone?
    I’m not familiar with anything matching that description.
    But then, I kind of thing that EPWJ’s familiarity with firearms is only exceeded by his knowledge of the legal consequences of using a cellphone in a Senator’s reception area while wearing coveralls.

    AD - RtR/OS! (f15c7c)

  279. “…I kind of think…” not “thing”.
    Sorry.

    AD - RtR/OS! (f15c7c)

  280. Daley

    tear gas, rubber bullets, hell hire Junior high school students to be there to throw rocks back

    but dont fire a military side arm into a group of schol kids

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  281. Daley

    Its not speculation the FBI was fairly precise in its statment locating the second BP agent on the scene – and there were more according to more info

    Why didnt he fire to protect his fellow LEO?

    Look I’m going to be in Europe for the next few weeks all of you enjoy your summer, make sure your kids dont throw anything that can be considered lethal like rocks, baseballs, soccer balls, footballs, fuzzy slippers, beanie babies, small yard animals – well at least near the border.

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  282. Maybe you should put down the 40 ouncers, PB&J, or the bong.

    Regardless, you are making yourself look…well, like what you are!

    So, please, continue. You do your point of view such a great service.

    Continue to make an incoherent and half-literate ass of yourself. After all, you have had plenty of practice.

    Eric Blair (e2121c)

  283. Hey, guys? I think that was PB&J’s version of:

    I work here is done.

    If only.

    Eric Blair (e2121c)

  284. BTW, EPWJ, the Border Patrol doesn’t use “military side arm(s)”. DoD buys the Beretta M-9 (92FS, etc, in civilian nomenclature), a 9×19 weapon (9mm Parabellum); the BP uses the Glock 22, which is chambered in .40S&W. Also, the M-9 is fed a steady diet of FMJ “hardball” ammo as per the Geneva Conventions; police (like the BP) use a Jacketed Hollow Point (JHP) round to ensure that they stop what they hit, and to cut down on collateral damage from a “through and through” that is common with FMJ rounds.

    AD - RtR/OS! (f15c7c)

  285. AD, I’m surprised he didn’t think you could empty the clip on a Ruger GP100.

    Eric Blair (e2121c)

  286. DRJ

    Given the fact that there have been thousands od rock throwing incidents and no reportable injuries or life sustaining events – also given the greater numbers of border agents in the tens of thousands instead of thousands – the fact that they report very few injuries of any kind is probably due to the fact that despite the rhectoric of reyes and bonner and the Tea Party, not much is going on on the border

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  287. Having read through this most recent idiocy of EPWJ’s, and the responses to the idiot, I’m going to waste even more time with a response of my own.

    Someone suggested EPWJ might be a moby. My understanding of “moby” in this reference would be someone who dements a conservative viewpoint. I have seen nothing of the sort from EPWJ, while he has claimed to be a conservative previously. So I do not believe him to be a moby.

    He started out as a “concern troll” early on (many months ago) but he has devolved into being merely a troll, and a not-so-intelligent one at that.

    SPQR gave him an actual link, which the troll continued to repeatedly ask for after it was given. SPQR further provided the exact location of where he gave the troll the link, which the troll again continued to ask for. DRJ also explained what the link was that SPQR gave, and the troll continued to ask for the link of the very type DRJ already said SPQR’s was.

    The troll’s dishonesty about NY-23 is well known. The troll’s dishonesty regarding O’Keefe and Breitbart is well known. The troll’s dishonesty and attempted tittilation regarding Haley is obvious to anyone with a brain. The troll’s dishonesty regarding the Border Patrol’s actions is likewise obvious.

    He’s not a moby, nor is he a concern troll. He’s merely a troll without an honest bone in his body.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  288. Given the fact that there have been thousands od (sic) rock throwing incidents and no reportable injuries or life sustaining (sic) events

    Since DRJ already provided proof otherwise, try again, troll.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  289. Compare and contrast EPWJ’s positions:

    Throwing potentially deadly missiles at a gun-carrying Federal officer = okay. It is unacceptable for the officer to defend himself.

    Speaking out against Islam, portraying their prophet in a drawing, or otherwise offending Muslims = not okay. It is acceptable for Muslims to respond with deadly violence because they were provoked.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  290. EricPWJohnson, your claim of no reportable injuries was already shown to be false by the El Paso Times article I referenced above.

    Your claims continue to be utter fabrications.

    Why are you a propagandist? I gave you four choices above to explain why you write propaganda here.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  291. had a dream last night
    mexico calls her peeps home
    need new gardener

    ColonelHaiku (57a85b)

  292. Stashiu

    Well, you must have read something I didnt write -I said deliberately provoking a deadly confrontation has consequences, others can be hurt and usually are – for what end? Why pick on any religion? Why? Everyone deserves protection, just not praise as heroes. And given the cost of having to remove valuable police assets for those seeking publicity – it does hurt others indirectly and directly

    SPQR

    We went through the rock throwing meme at LST – long long time ago – there have been a MINOR – handfull – miniscule amount of – rock throwing injuries – one’s and two’s that needed surgery in 76 years – a few needed hospitalization a few meaning just a few

    That research was done in 2006-7 if I recall

    This rock throwing thing has been a crutch for bad behavior excuses for BP excessives – which are also relatively rare as rare as serious rock throwing injuries – they are a well trained and motivated group of professionals

    However the rock thing – as a tool to circumvent investigations – its ideal, really no physical evidence, tough – but not impossible – to get any DNA fingerprints off a rock, its easy to put a rock in a dead kids hands – rocks seldom show up on footage at long range

    Its not to say at all that rocking is acceptable behaviorit could be fatal but only in the most ideal circumstances – but the rocking seems to be ineffective if it indeed is there to cause injury

    But in this instance a guy apparently lost it – started yelling approached a sovereign country and killed one of its citizens well on his side of the border on their own soil who was a child.

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  293. Given the fact that there have been thousands od rock throwing incidents and no reportable injuries or life sustaining events –

    Demonstrably false, as shown above.

    the fact that they report very few injuries of any kind is probably due to the fact that despite the rhectoric of reyes and bonner and the Tea Party, not much is going on on the border

    Yes, everyone is just imagining human smuggling, and drug wars. They should just call you to find out the real story, huh?

    Good Allah.

    JD (de02cc)

  294. EricPWJohnson, you continue to refuse to explain your behavior. You write propaganda here, and have not explained why you think it appropriate to write such on this blog comment threads.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  295. Like I said

    No one has posted any evidence of rock throwing injuries

    No one has posted a link to the shooting

    No one has addressed the fact that the other agents did not open fire

    No one has posted other fatal or even non fatal shootings in ANY rock Throwing Incident

    No one has posted anything on what the Israeli’s do when (and its constant) rock throwing happens

    No one as in here we go again a few commentators ignoring the salient fact that someone – a child – is dead – well on their side of the border – by a highly trained Federal Officer armed with a military pistol and had fired several shots well into a group of school children

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  296. SPQR

    Where again is the link to the shooting?

    Thanks

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  297. SPQR – I wish it would volunteer to be the test subject to see if rocks just sting from beyond 20-30 yards.

    JD (de02cc)

  298. In #296, EricPWJohnson, you post “No one …” and lie after lie. And I’ve described where the link is multiple times, you incompetent dishonest propagandist.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  299. EPWJ, the link was given to you. You have been told more than once the link was given to you. Quit with your lies already and man up.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  300. Like I said

    No one has posted any evidence of rock throwing injuries

    Demonstrable lie, as DRJ did so above. Ignoring it or willing it away will not make it true.

    No one has posted a link to the shooting

    Nobody has posted a link to a stampede of elephants trampling a village either.

    No one has posted other fatal or even non fatal shootings in ANY rock Throwing Incident

    Yet you claim to know exactly what happened.

    No one has addressed the fact that the other agents did not open fire

    Not relevant to the actions of the office in question. Running around with the goal posts again.

    No one has posted anything on what the Israeli’s do when (and its constant) rock throwing happens

    Huge “look something shiny” moment. Are those goal posts heavy? Has Breitbart been indicted?

    – well on their side of the border –

    Please provide your link to the shooting that confirms this.

    armed with a military pistol

    This was pointed out to you to be a lie above. Did you just miss that?

    And we are now back to the agent emptying a clip into a group of innocent schoolchildren. Again, you are invested in this meme. Why?

    JD (de02cc)

  301. SPQR

    Where is the Link – all you have to do is provide the ACTUAL link to the ACTUAL shooting

    I mean – wouldnt everyone – in the world – want to see it?

    So again – where is the link?

    Its just a cut and paste…

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  302. Eric – Why do you keep asking that, as though it proves anything, yet then continue to prattle on about details that you clearly know nothing nada zip zero about? Get help.

    JD (de02cc)

  303. EricPWJohnson, the link to the video I referenced is above. Why do you continue to lie about it?

    Why are you writing propaganda? All you have to do is explain why you feel the need to invent false claims about this incident, and others like O’Keefe, and post them here. I gave you some suggested answers above since you are at a loss for words to explain yourself.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  304. SPQR

    Dont describe links – just provide it?

    Thanking you in advance…

    Oh and BTW – when anyone is ready with the numerous links on rock throwing deaths, injuries, shootings, everyone would like to see those as well

    Or people might, might just start to think you guys (not the first time) are up the wrong tree again

    It might help to wait until the facts were out – I refrained from bringing this up until the DRJ post headline and then the usual suspects showed up – maybe you guys should wait until the video is released – moments now that SPQR has “DESCRIBED” it

    Eric

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  305. Why would it help to wait for the facts to come out, EricPWJohnson, when you yourself just make them up and write your fantasies here?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  306. Oh well back to packing for Europe – no I will not be bringing a laptop and checking my email

    Have a good summer and again

    Baseball has now been described as a lethal weapon, softball even worse, just ask the congressman Reyes who stewardship of the house ethics committee removed all those corrupt democrat lawmakers the last few years

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  307. SPQR

    And the link you described to the video no one has is where again?

    Thanks in advance

    Eric

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  308. To sum up, EricPWJohnson has admitted writing baseless propaganda and after that admission refuses to tell us why he writes propaganda here. Even when I helpfully gave him some possible responses to get past his writers’ block.

    He spent hours pretending that I’d not given a link to the video, as well as describing an alternate route to find the video off of the link initially given in the original post. He’s repeatedly claimed that no one ever shown injuries to BP officers from rock throwing, when that had been done via an El Paso Times article.

    Bottom line: EricPWJohnson has demonstrated his dishonesty repeatedly in this thread alone.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  309. How can we miss this troll if he won’t go away?

    Which takes us back to SPQR’s question about why he posts…

    Eric Blair (e2121c)

  310. And remember, he won’t be posting all summer!

    As if.

    Eric Blair (e2121c)

  311. Here is how the El Paso Times describes the video referenced above:

    A cell-phone video of the fatal shooting was aired Wednesday evening on news programs on the Spanish-language Univision television network.

    The grainy video shows about four men crossing the almost-dry riverbed toward a fence on the U.S. side of the Rio Grande. The men then run back toward Mexico when a Border Patrol agent arrives on a bicycle and stops one man at gunpoint on the concrete riverbank on the U.S. side.

    The video shows that while the agent has the man on the ground, he points his gun toward Mexico before several gunshots are heard. The video then shows a body next to a column under the railroad Black Bridge.

    “Estan tirando piedras. Le dio, el estupido, le dio,” a person says on the video. Translated, “They are throwing rocks. He hit him, that stupid one, hit him.”

    The video also shows the arrival of Mexican police with guns drawn before insults can be heard being yelled.[/blockquote>

    SPQR (26be8b)

  312. SPQR, one of the goals of trolls is to get other people to do work, while posting irritating goading comments. We have seen that from him throughout, right?

    Just a troll.

    Eric Blair (e2121c)

  313. EPWJ, for awhile now, I have pretty much ignored your posts because, to be honest, you just seemed a little strange.

    But now you have gone and dug yourself a hole the size of The Big Dig, and you persist in digging yourself in deeper.

    You have lost all credibility here, which seems like it’s probably a problem in your meatworld life as well; the regard with which others perceive you has plummeted and you are not doing yourself and whatever causes you espouse any good.

    Do yourself a favor. Give up. Stop beating a dead horse. Put the shovel down, and give it a rest. After a while, maybe you can start with posts that don’t make the rest of us automatically think of Pinocchio, or the little boy who cried “Wolf!” and rebuild some credibility. I do think you might be happier that way.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  314. But EW, that is not why he posts. He thinks he is “balancing” extreme rhetoric, I think.

    Also, I am convinced he is drunk or stoned when he posts, much of the time.

    Eric Blair (e2121c)

  315. EW1

    “EPWJ, for awhile now…”

    Loosely translated

    Eric, I dont have any proof but alot of opinion, joining the rest…..

    A link, a fact, at this point would be helpful

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  316. SPQR

    A link to the VIDEO please – the VIDEO

    Would like to see the VIDEO

    We all would

    Eric

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  317. You had no facts, no links, to substantiate any of your comments above, EricPWJohnson. Why demand them of others?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  318. Why continue to lie in your claim that I’ve not linked to the video, EricPWJohnson?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  319. SPQR

    Several links have been given – that a fair question

    PatAZ stated that a BP was killed by a rock – recently

    I live near the border, Eric. A Border Patrol agent was killed a few years ago

    Didnt happen there is a link and some research

    Does anyone have the protocol when people are running back to the Border?

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  320. “We all would” is a megalomaniacal lie, EPWJ. You have been lying on this site for months on end. Your credibility is totally shot. Now, go back to your code pink crowd.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  321. Hey, I know Obama’s TOA in Afghanistan: Terrorist fires RPG at tank, terrorist drops weapon and walks away, terrorist no longer has weapon, we are not allowed to kill him.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  322. A link, a fact, at this point would be helpful

    Yes, this troll—who has been “packing” all night—actually wrote that. 2,000% of your daily irony requirement.

    You know he isn’t going away, don’t you? And I kind doubt the “spend my summer in Europe” thing anyway.

    Cue “Leaving on a Jet Plane.” As if.

    Eric Blair (e2121c)

  323. JD, SPQR, EW, John, Eric B DRJ,

    I really appreciate your strong vigorous defense of this Federal Official, never ever change.

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  324. No, EricPWJohnson, I’ve not given several links to any video. Just one. And I’ve described how to find it from the link in the original post. You have found it – you are just pretending not.

    Because it shows that all of your propaganda about the incident was false.

    And yet, you still refuse to tell us why you are writing propaganda. Do you need some more choices since you are at a loss for words to explain your actions?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  325. Time for you to “leave” for “the summer,” isn’t it?

    Eric Blair (e2121c)

  326. EricPWJohnson, you are a liar. I’m not “defending” the Border Patrol agent. I explicitly said so.

    Why do you lie about what I write?
    Why do you write propaganda here?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  327. Here is the video

    http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/06/10/texas.border.patrol.shooting/index.html

    God Bless you all

    Eric

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  328. Oh, and yes, try to insult DRJ, who has treated you with far more respect than you merit. That has worked out so well for trolls in the past!

    Eric Blair (e2121c)

  329. The surveillance video has yet to be released. I think that there is more to see.

    norma (348d4d)

  330. DRJ and Pat have been nothing but extremely fair and tolerant to everyone including me

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  331. The video does show a radically different story

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  332. Are you still here?

    Eric Blair (2aa30d)

  333. Did he ever agree to test out his theory about whether rocks sting from beyond 20-30 yards?

    Did Breitbart ever get indicted?

    Has EricPW quit lying yet?

    JD (0f9c01)

  334. 334

    no

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  335. #336.

    334

    no

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 6/10/2010 @ 9:16 am

    Yet another lie, since you could not type no were you not here. You are like the Old Faithful of dishonesty.

    JD (0f9c01)

  336. EricPWJohnson’s 9:16am was a typo, he was answering JD’s last question of 9:13am.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  337. The video on CNN is said to raise questions, but I don’t see how. Obviously you can’t see everything. But the Mexicans are saying ”

    “They’re throwing rocks,” witnesses screaming in Spanish can be heard in the background of the video as the officer opens fire. “They hit him … they hit him.”

    Almost every characterization EPWJ had, that he was surrounded by buddies who didn’t react, that he emptied his gun or fired it indiscriminately at a bunch of kids, etc, was a lie.

    CNN’s coverage is pretty typical of CNN in that it’s trying hard to ensure there is enough controversy to get an audience, but the best they can do is say there are questions. The camera turns away from the agent as he shoots, but you can tell people are throwing rocks at him. You can tell he’s defending himself from the rocks.

    The questions appear to be that the video doesn’t capture any command to stop throwing them (but I don’t think it could have if he gave the command). Otherwise, the video strongly bolsters the agent’s story.

    And that may be why EPWJ posted it but didn’t actually have any points this time. No ‘see, I was right about this, look at this part of the video and see X’.

    I’m glad I saw the video. It seems that Franco and EPWJ were trying to play propaganda with human life. That’s scummy.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  338. Dustin, note that Franco was explicitly referencing a news report that included that video when he fraudulently stated it showed things it did not. So we know that Franco and EricPWJohnson share the same level of honesty, integrity and reliability.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  339. Franco and EricPWJohnson share the same level of honesty, integrity and reliability.

    Less than zero.

    JD (0f9c01)

  340. Dustin

    There were three officers there according to the FBI his partner and one in a truck

    They didnt open fire

    Also it appears that he was actually – if the border is down the middle of the river which it shows on the map it is (but thats not official)- the officer was on the wrong side when he fired and he apparently did approach the kids who were cowering several yards away

    Some reports say he shot at them from 60 feet

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  341. A Wall Street Journal report is relaying this

    U

    .S. national Bobbie McDow said she was in the middle of the Santa Fe Bridge — which spans the border and has security checkpoints at either side ‐ and saw a group of teens who had no weapons or backpacks. They were playing a kind of “cat-and-mouse game,” trying to make it to the U.S. side and back to Mexico without being caught, she told the Journal.

    McDow said two Border Patrol agents saw the group and chased them — and that one agent, riding a bicycle, caught and pinned down a suspect. She said the same agent then fired shots into Mexico, where the other boys had run. McDow said that one teen had thrown rocks at the agent but that Hernandez hadn’t.

    McDow’s husband, Raul Flores, told the Journal he’d seen Hernandez emerge from behind a pillar on the Mexican side of the border with his hands up before the agent shot him in the shoulder and then in the head.

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  342. Ouch

    If thats true – and it COULD VERY WELL BE FALSE – but if its true

    This guy is toast

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  343. That inflight WiiFi is great. Whoops….troll boy wasn’t going to take his computer, was he?

    Time to go, EPWJ. Right? Again, we can’t miss you if don’t remove your trollish self from the blog.

    Since you have repeatedly said you were leaving.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  344. We cannot miss you if you do not leave, EricPW.

    JD (0f9c01)

  345. Speaking of toast.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  346. “with his hands up before the agent shot him in the shoulder and then in the head.”

    Yeah, what a shock that some extreme claim that doesn’t line up with any evidence is coming from you. I’m sure lots of folks find that persuasive.

    If that’s true, the agent will face justice. And the reason all these authorities who have a record of overly strict enforcement on border patrol are not on your side of this is because your version of the facts is not supported by any evidence (and probably just propaganda).

    People have to give you some benefit of doubt when you repeatedly make claims that haven’t been 100% disproven. You constantly leap from one to another, and when something extremely ugly you said is disproven, you ignore it. Your entire version of events has been proven lies. Not mistakes: you knew you were telling lies.

    This kid was probably a human smuggler, not the victim of some huge conspiracy to kill an honor roll student who was so sweet when he wasn’t trying to brain people to death.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  347. The interesting part with this troll—and that is all he is—is how when something we believe is proven wrong, we admit it. Deal with it. We are not emotionally invested in being right.

    Because none of us were present at, say, the Duke lacrosse situation, the O’Keefe business, or the border.

    Not so our trollboy, as you point out, Dustin.

    He is never wrong!

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  348. #316 Eric:

    Loosely translated

    Eric, there is nothing to translate. I haven’t read your comments, because you are just flat out strange.

    I haven’t joined you or any of the other commenters on this thread in discussing the incident at the border: the only fact in evidence that I have addressed is your increasingly unhinged behavior.

    My well meaning, but apparently ignored, advice stands.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  349. EPWJ, and any caring to observe:

    Your early entry at #8: After all someone could get hurt – the velocity of a rock after 15 ft is not lethal – might sting a bit – these kids could have been much farther away than that 20 30 feet or more

    You start out with a “truth” claim that is ridiculous, that thrown rocks cannot give serious injury. You compound this with twisting of truth with a misleading description of those involved as “kids” (and elsewhere as “school boys”, I believe). “Kids” and “school boys” evokes the image of children from maybe 6 to 14 years old in their school uniforms, not the image of older teens with a criminal history in a gang. “Kids” and “school boys” don’t throw rocks at armed police in my neighborhood.

    You started with a post with disingenuous information, and you dug yourself deeper thereafter. Even if you are correct, no one is going to take the time to listen to you. If so, hopefully someone who can demonstrate intellectual integrity and a willingness for honest dialogue can present the case that the BP agent over-reacted.

    As far as throwing rocks being dangerous, I think “stoning” someone to death is a very old and well documented form of capital punishment, see multiple passages in both the Old and New Testaments.

    Have a good time in Europe. If you find it to be superior to the US, you might want to stay there.

    Oh, almost forgot, one more thing. You might want to keep your “papers” with you, as I think the border security of other nations is tighter than the US. In fact, you could do some original research and see how many countries you can sneak into and see if anyone cares.

    MD in Philly (5a98ff)

  350. People have to give you some benefit of doubt when you repeatedly make claims that haven’t been 100% disproven.
    Comment by Dustin — 6/10/2010 @ 10:04 am

    No, we don’t*. Not ever again. He’s established himself as a liar and fabulist and will retain that reputation whenever he shows up here. Whatever he says is not just suspect, it is false. If proven accurate later, it’s just a mistake on his part, a rare one. His lies are intentional, just like his other baiting behaviors. Just like with Hax, assuming the exact opposite of what he says is the safe way to bet if you want to be right.

    Zero credibility.

    * Speaking only for myself as a longtime regular commenter.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  351. EW

    And I thank you

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  352. Amen, stashiu. Amen.

    JD (0f9c01)

  353. And he is still here!

    Stashiu3, I am starting to wonder if his “living in the Middle East” and “spend the summer in Europe” are also Tall Tales of Derring Do. A Walter Mitty thing in progress?

    I mean, given his history.

    And EPWJ? When you get someone as honorable as Stashiu3 saying you are untrustworthy, it really is time to re-examine yourself.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  354. As Stashiu3 states, EricPWJohnson, your claims have often been shown to be fabrications and not just in this thread.

    You will not escape your reputation here.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  355. MD in Philly

    Video must have popped your bubble?

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  356. See you all later … the 1st tee awaits !

    JD (0f9c01)

  357. One problem with astroturf or mobying is that even when someone has no reputation left, if they leave a comment and everyone responds ‘You’re just lying again’, but that lie was crafted to look sincere and polite, it probably influences some of the people who don’t keep up with each commenter.

    I’ve noticed that EPWJ’s comments are carefully crafted to have this impact.

    this is not a direct quote:

    I really like Breitbart and am concerned for him. I want to contribute to his legal fund. It’s a shame he helped O’Keefe tamper with those phones.

    I really like the Republicans, and am concerned for their success in beating Obamacare. It’s a shame we aren’t uniting behind Scozzafava, proven conservative, against yellow-tooth.

    etc

    Stash is sane and follows the threads, so of course he recognizes that EPWJ seems motivated specifically to insert things that aren’t true and highly damaging to the conservative cause in many discussions. You can’t take him seriously once you realize that. Unfortunately, people have to carefully consider his lies, and take them apart, which is often very difficult. A good propagandist will lie about things that are difficult to nail down.

    Stash is justified in never treating EPWJ’s comments with careful benefit of doubt, of course. I have a hard time doing that, just because I don’t see another way to the truth*.

    *yeah, I know, it barely matters at all that someone! is! wrong! on! the! internet!!!!! I suck like that.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  358. EPWJ-

    Apparently you didn’t read my post, so I’ll repeat the important part.

    Please do some original research to document how terrible the US is on border policy. Please try entering the countries you visit on the sly and without papers and see how much better you are treated there. You might even try throwing rocks and see what reaction you get. (But then again, you must not throw very well to have thought that thrown rocks can’t do serious damage. See if you can pay some muscular 15 year old to do it for you.)

    MD in Philly (5a98ff)

  359. MD

    This has nothing to do with border policy this has to do with an agent who got pissed when a kid ran by him and shot him and according to several AMERICAN witnessess and the Wall Street Journal – was on the Mexican side with his hands raised

    This should disturb you for several reasons

    1. Why did the BP lie about the fact of the event

    2. Why did they kill a child

    3. How did this action you saw they were INCHES from Mexico why did they bother to even detain them?

    4. The footage is grainy but witnessess other boys not with the group on the levy were throwing the rocks

    5. How far did the BP agent drag the other suspect towards the group then crouch and take aim?

    But thats okay – its the process that counts right? I mean the rule of law is what in this instance?

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  360. It is highly unusual to see Stash so vocal about someone. It is like Tom Landry acting like John Madden from the sidelines. For Stash to act that way means EPWJ really had it coming to him.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  361. The Video showed the BP agent lied

    Period end of story at this point I wouldnt believe anything the BP spokeperson and homeland security has to say about the incident

    Video shows a totally different story

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  362. EricPWJohnson, if you are so concerned about the Border Patrol “lying”, then why did you lie about the incident? You fabricated claims without any basis and have admitted it. Why did you do that?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  363. Stash is a nice guy,
    I’m sorry he got riled up but those who cant handle contrary information probably shouldnt blog

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  364. EricPWJohnson, your fabrications are not “contrary information”.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  365. SPQR

    The Agent fired several shots

    The Agent approached the boys

    Rocks were thrown from a great distance away by ANOTHER group

    Agent fired on a child who according to American and Mexican witnessess had his hands up in the air?

    Dead child, untouched BP agent

    yep

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  366. Stash is a nice guy,
    I’m sorry he got riled up but those who cant handle contrary information probably shouldnt blog

    That is so lovey/blu.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  367. See you guys in July

    Have a great rest of June

    EricPWJohnson (1d5ff4)

  368. Don’t bother coming back, lying troll.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  369. Actually, pretty mild compared to the rant not long ago (too lazy right now to look it up) towards somebody else. You missed a whole bunch of cusswords. Before that though, yeah, I try to just mention the dishonesty and then ignore the content from that person.

    Which will be the default position with EPWJ, although I reserve the option of pointing out when he’s outdone himself.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  370. Still no explanation by EricPWJohnson for his fabricated propaganda.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  371. Oh, and Mr Blair, I do believe EPWJ’s “declared ip” puts him in Qatar, based on past experience with my flag counter. But there are ways to fudge that, too.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  372. I’m sorry he got riled up but those who cant handle contrary information probably shouldnt blog
    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 6/10/2010 @ 10:42 am

    Flat-out lies are contrary to the information I look for, so that’s true. Also, I don’t blog, I occasionally comment on this blog. Third and finally, you are incapable of getting me riled up no matter how much you lie. That only happens with someone I respect(ed).

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  373. EPWJ says the video shows all kinds of things that it doesn’t. And he says it shows a lot of things that prove the border patrol agent lied.

    This isn’t correct. Some of the things he claims the video shows are accurate, but don’t contradict the agent. Other things he claims are shown would contradict the agent’s claims, but the video doesn’t show those things.

    So you have two intertwined lies. About a guy who was getting pelted with rocks and defending himself from this serious attack with a very discriminate use of force (albeit, the video can’t confirm or deny if he was shooting at the right kid… it’s strong evidence that the agent was defending himself).

    I don’t see any evidence that the child had his hands in the air and was executed for no reason. That’s a very damaging claim, but it’s probably not true. It’s interesting that the burden of proof is so drastically ridiculous here. EPWJ, who already disproved most of his claims, is claiming that the agent was being attacked with rocks (you can see this on the video), and instead of firing at the people trying to kill him, shot dead some innocent honor roll student who had his hands up… and somehow the person shooting the film completely missed that most obvious part of the incident entirely.

    Why would the agent do that? There’s no question someone there was throwing rocks at him. Can you see someone deciding to spar the violent and kill the one complying kid? Shouldn’t EPWJ have evidence instead of just propaganda claims?

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  374. EPWJ-

    You are a shameful and utterly dishonest person if you think others and I don’t care if indeed a person, old or young, was wrongfully killed.

    That has not been the issue as far as you are concerned. The issue, as far as you are concerned, is that you put out so much garbage that even if you were right no one is going to believe you.

    The underlying narrative is the assumption that the US is bad, the US border patrol is the worst of the bad. Do the research, send us entries with photos of you and the smiling border guards of other countries. I am sure you can get at least one person to cooperate if you tell them, “I want to show that border guards of other nations are not like those hateful ones in the US, smile.”

    MD in Philly (5a98ff)

  375. Well, when you just look at how PB&J Otter is acting, it is indistinguishable from trolling.

    And he keeps saying he is going away, and I will bet (whoops, there is that word again) that he will continue to troll for some time.

    As for his location, who knows? Historically, he lies and exaggerates. Maybe he is the kid of someone in the diplomatic corps. If he is a grown up, why, double shame on him.

    What he is doing is trying to get people irritable by exaggerating/moving goalposts. I smell a game player, not a truth teller.

    Just my opinion.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  376. I’m not a head shrinker by any stretch of the imagination but I believe EPWJ’s evidenced pathology makes his attempt at a passive-aggressive stance quite comical.

    John Hitchcock (9e8ad9)

  377. Let me restate my point in fewer words:

    EPWJ claims the agent singled out the kid who complied and had his hands up (this is not seen on his video), executing him instead of defending himself from the people who were violently attacking the agent with rocks.

    We know, from the video, there were people throwing rocks and the cop had a very confined reaction to one of them. This was no “clip emptying at a crowd.” He selected his target. EPWJ claims he selected a child with his hands up, complying and innocent and straight A and apparently the only one not throwing one of the many rocks I saw on the video.

    That sounds a lot like bullshit propaganda, typical of terrorists in the Middle East, where the guy who actually died is deified for max PR. It makes no sense.

    [note: released from moderation. –Stashiu]

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  378. “…according to several AMERICAN witnessess…”

    The least reliable form of evidence is “eye witness” evidence, as has been demonstrated in countless classrooms over the years by having someone generally unknown to the class barge in, violently make a scene (without harming anyone), and leave abruptly; and then having the class, without discussion, individually set down in prose, what happened, using the age-old journalistic standard of Who, What, Where, When, How.

    AD - RtR/OS! (e78fff)

  379. You stand there and get hit with a softball size rock. Are you going to be okay with it? Im a Texas Law Enforcement Officer and Im Hispanic. So lets be straight …if you assault a law enforcement officer and their lives are in danger it is justified to use deadly force. I dont care if you are 15 or 50 years old! Keep up the great work Border Patrol Agents! And by the way people dont bring rocks to a gun fight you will lose!

    texas cop (827b42)

  380. Eric,

    The CNN video goes dark at a crucial time. Here is the original video that I watched and referred to above.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  381. “…according to several AMERICAN witnessess…”

    I’m pretty dang sure EPWJ was lying about this too. I could be wrong, but he seemed to shift from a family member (who was already distorting the smuggler’s record) saying this to a plethora of people all around saying it. Did 5 or so American witnesses see this? If so, why is the FBI conspiring to help the Border Patrol execute this innocent person? Maybe because this is all fantasy.

    Not that AD’s other point, that eyewitness testimony is not very helpful, isn’t also a great point.

    Anyone who sees the actual video knows this was a situation where the agent was violently attacked. The attack actually was much worse than I expected it to be. It was a pretty substantial number of rocks being thrown. A chaotic situation that we’re fortunate enough to have some video covering, because there’s no way memories were formed perfectly.

    I strongly feel we should pacify that region. They are attacking our border. Just go ahead and occupy it with a strong presence for a month, and make clear that we’ll do that wherever this crap goes on. Also, probably some kind of bunker, just at that location, with a gun nest. I admit, this is radical in comparison to anything our admin or the last would do. But I think we wouldn’t have this kind of violence if it was clear there would be a response.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  382. It’s nice that you keep trying, DRJ. But this character isn’t about debate or truth. This is just game playing on his part.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  383. I don’t know if I would consider this a “good shoot” or not. Not good enough video. However, people need to consider that once the Border Patrol officer had grabbed one of the illegal crossers, at that point he was less mobile, less able to watch for attacks and less able to avoid them. In that situation, I can see using a sidearm to defend myself from attackers while I had someone in custody where I might not have before.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  384. DRJ’s link at 382 is really appreciated.

    At about 1:10-1:20, it appears that a man who is attacking is shot. He is clearly not complying, his hands are only raised insofar as it looks like he’s throwing something (it even appears that something is flung towards the shooter from the shootee during the shooting).

    Really sad situation. The guy was approaching our border and our agent during an obvious attack on this agent, and though the video is very grainy and there is a fence in the way, I think it clears up a lot of the claims EPWJ and Franco made.

    If the agent had shot a person who was complying with his hands straight up, of course that would be atrocious and there’s no doubt that agent would be punished severely.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  385. It is my profound belief that EPWJ suffers from a severe chemical dependency, and that the quality of his thinking has been adversely effected by that dependency.

    AD - RtR/OS! (e78fff)

  386. AD, I just want to know why he writes propaganda.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  387. It is trollish behavior – he’s just interested in stirring the pot since he has, at various times, taken contradictory positions.

    AD - RtR/OS! (e78fff)

  388. You know. I ever thought that USA was a great country, and that Mexico, my country, was buried in a hurtfull life of ignorance and Violence. I’m not proud of saying this, cause I can feel the ill of my people, but this same feeling hurts the people who look nearby those other who want to go to USA to get a better life.
    The american people have all the right to get upset above these, but I also thought USA was so great that was going to help people in need, so they did’nt have to try get ilegaly into the country. Most american people presume to be better than mexican, but now I dont know what to think. For me, America was an example of how Mexico has to be, has to work, has to take control over people, but I see now, that there’s still too much hate and racism in those where an example of the right ways. I can only think, “You say we are wild animals, are we? What’s your excuse? Aren’t you great enough anymore?”. I don’t want to say so, but I’m starting to think of it.

    Kaya (bc0aca)

  389. Kaya,
    America has long welcomed people from Mexico who came here legally and showed respect for our society and our laws. My wife and her family all took this path and they are now law abiding citizens and voters. America has not and should not ever welcome criminals who break and flaunt our laws. The ones who permit this want the criminals to vote illegally for them, further sinking them into the criminal swamp.

    This would not be greatness but irresponsibility. Responsibility must accompany great power. It is too dangerous to be neglected.

    Machinist (497786)

  390. Kaya,

    In addition to what Machinist has said about people from Mexico being welcome when they go to the time and the trouble to come here legally, I think that people who want to break the rules use hate and racism as an excuse.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  391. 390 Kaya, I am so sorry that you believe that the American people are superior to others. Truly, that is not the case, otherwise people from all over the world would not try so hard to come here.

    This is the land of opportunity. (As my abuelita used to tell me, los estados unidos es la tierra de leche y miel.) She also warned me about never succumbing to bad behavior. No one wishes to welcome anyone who comes to this country to abuse it, but anyone who comes to share and give will always find the door open.

    Savage behavior is not mutually exclusive to any nationality. Criminals come in all forms, colors, shapes and sizes.

    Well said, machinist.

    norma (348d4d)

  392. Well, part of Kaya’s point, as I understand it, is how Mexico is doing its best to direct anger away from its own problems by focusing on America.

    And I also agree that there’s something to her point that America is exceptional. There’s something fundamentally unamerican about refusing to assimilate, or reconquista, or the animal-like behavior of a horde of people throwing rocks at someone they think is too nice to respond.

    One aspect that really captures my view is that Mexican law is directed at maintaining its racial composition. America is directed at assimilating to a ‘mere’ document. Our nationalism is different.

    There’s nothing fundamental about a Mexican that makes them more prone to any negative trait, but there is something about those who have fallen prey to La Raza and the like which makes them have some problem with the idea of America protecting her borders and expecting people to honor her laws within those borders.

    I would be exasperated too, to see all these kids waste their future, which should be directed at reforming their Mexican government (in my opinion, to be more like the American government).

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  393. Thank you, Ma’am.

    Your point is perhaps the main one. No one wants to see a young man shot, but this was a wanted criminal trying to kill a Border Patrol agent charged with protecting us from just such people. He will pay a terrible price for this regardless of the legal outcome.

    Kaya, most of the commenters here are a fine group of ladies and gentlemen, as fine a group as I’ve seen. One man who enjoys dropping lies and mischaracterizations into these discussions got many of us angry and upset. He has no sense of honor and does not fit in here well. The good people here get upset at criminal thugs of all nationalities. It is unfortunate that some are trying to make a racist issue of this sad tragedy.

    Machinist (497786)

  394. The american people have all the right to get upset above these, but I also thought USA was so great that was going to help people in need, so they did’nt have to try get ilegaly into the country.

    @ 390 — Comment by Kaya — 6/10/2010 @ 1:39 pm

    Hi Kaya:

    Perhaps America is not so much about helping people-in-need, but more about providing a country where people-in-need can go for Hope — to get out of poverty or serfdom or oppression — to create a better life for their children, rather than have it provided for them.

    That is our strength, but we are squandering it by abandoning our moral principles of Liberty and Justice and instead embracing a political ideology of Dependency and Advocacy.

    Our borders are a mess and partially because of that, the Hope that we once took pride-in providing everyone (not just Mexicans) is now in jeopardy.

    Already the graves and rape-trees flourish along the border because we Americans failed to uphold our own principles. We fail for everyone — Mexican and American.

    In our country we have a problem with liberals who do not even talk about the murders and rape-trees, but instead insist that a lawless border be continued.

    But it is not too late. Moral people on both side of the border can and should expect the murders and rape-trees to stop. We can take control of the borders and ensure a way for honest people to cross legally and with minimum effort.

    Maybe we can make this change, but without question we have to fight hard.

    We owe that to our children.

    Pons Asinorum (0ae484)

  395. There are alot of no’s here Dana

    only one decided to open fire – multiple times – and empty a clip into a crowd of school kids

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 6/9/2010 @ 6:37 pm

    The video does show a radically different story

    Comment by EricPWJohnson — 6/10/2010 @ 9:00 am

    Yeah, so much for the “empty clip” and the “crowd of school children” falsehoods.

    Pons Asinorum (0ae484)

  396. Watching that full video that DRJ linked to @ 1141, I counted three gunshots – kind of hard to make that into a “full clip”.
    BTW, EPWJ, modern semi-auto handguns have “removable magazines”; the last mass produced pistol with other than a removable magazine that I can recall is (I’m sure there are more, but this one I do know) the Mauser M98 “Broomhandle”, which was loaded with stripper clips into a fixed magazine.

    AD - RtR/OS! (e78fff)

  397. The Steyr M1912 and the Grendel were clip charged.

    The weapon he probably had would would hold 12 to 16 rounds so three shots was not even most or half of a magazine.

    Machinist (497786)

  398. Anyone compare the date and time of the availability of video clips to EricPW’s assertions? If they did, they would see he was including complete asspulls in his comments. DRJ created this post on Tuesday evening, when EricPW started making his wild assertions. Univision first aired its clip Wednesday night and CNN yesterday. Calling EricPW’s comments factually challenges is too charitable.

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  399. The President of Mexico has been enabling and encouraging this lawlessness against the Americans trying to guard the border. He must accept a share of the responsibility for this. I suspect the Obama administration will try to throw this man under the bus. I hope his supervisors have some honor and spine.

    Machinist (497786)

  400. Calling EricPW’s comments factually challenges is too charitable.

    can we go with “mendoucheous twatwaffle”?

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  401. Machinist – I agree that the government of Mexico is a big part of the problem. After all, remittances from the United States into Mexico provide a nice source of foreign exchange. Why kill the golden goose?

    daleyrocks (1d0d98)

  402. I believe I read that 10% or more of the Mexican economy is from money sent back from the US.

    Machinist (497786)

  403. This is interesting from Bloomberg:

    Money sent home from Mexicans living abroad is still plummeting, falling nearly 16 percent in January compared to the same time last year.

    Mexico’s central bank says remittances in January totaled 1.3 billion compared to 1.6 billion in January 2009.

    The bank released the data Monday, the same day it also published its forecast by economists. They say Mexico’s economy will grow 3.9 percent in 2010, improving their previous forecast of 3.3 percent.

    Remittances are Mexico’s No. 2 source of foreign income after oil exports. They totaled $21.2 billion in 2009, a 15 percent drop from 2008. The bank has blamed the U.S. economic downturn.

    Mexico receives the world’s third largest amount of remittances, after India and China.

    As our economy goes, so goes Mexico’s.

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  404. Providing a safety relief valve for Mexico only helps to stall the changes that must inevitably occur. In the long run, we do them – and us – no favors by forestalling this.

    GeneralMalaise (57a85b)

  405. I have a question that I haven’t seen addressed in this thread: If this took place right at the border in a well known dangerous section, and the American Border Patrol agent was attempting to restrain a prisoner on the ground with his back turned while the young men on the other side of the border were repeatedly running toward him to throw rocks and assault him, what on earth were the border patrol agents on the Mexican side doing?

    Because as we read, when the FBI attempted to cross the border to collective evidence, they were immediately met by Federales with guns who pushed them back to the U.S. side.

    So, again, what were their border patrol officers doing while the young men were assaulting our law officers?

    Standing idly by? Encouraging them? Rooting them on? Trying to restrain them from continuing their assault?

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  406. Dana, the Mexican police do not appear to show up until after the shooting. And then, they appear with full automatic rifle armament, as though more prepared to attack the American Border Patrol than to deal with their own criminals.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  407. SPQR, of course you’re right. Plain as the nose on my face.

    The Mexican police were more prepared to attack American Border Patrol than deal with their own criminals because they do not see their own as criminals but instead believe that American Border Patrol, by default, are the real criminals.

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  408. Are we prepared for the possibility of the Mexican military firing on our agents? The FBI had every right to investigate the incident, and the military threatened to kill our agents while grabbing some evidence up.

    This is ridiculous. If the FBI had not had a cool head, this could have escalated to a much worse tragedy.

    They should have cooperated with the FBI, both sides collecting whatever evidence was available and handling the custody of that evidence professionally, but we have to act like this was a gang standoff where our agents were outgunned.

    Any administration that permits this level of heat up on our borders is permitting a host of potential tragedies and failing to protect our nation. And this thread has shown my that thousands of rock throwing attacks are occurring… our response being to up armor our trucks and just take it.

    This is not a long term solution.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  409. They should have cooperated with the FBI,

    Yes, they should have – *if* they really wanted to know the truth of what occurred.

    And perhaps therein lies the problem.

    Dana (1e5ad4)

  410. “Are we prepared for the possibility of the Mexican military firing on our agents? ”

    Obama has been bowing in front of a mirror and loading apologies and condemnations of our border patrol into TOTUS all day.

    Machinist (497786)

  411. “Por favor, perdona los Estados Unidos… que han asesinado a ese muchacho inocente. Nos merecemos su condena. Que Dios los malditos de los Estados Unidos de América, el presidente Calderón. Soy siempre tu humilde hijo de puta.”

    – President Barack Hussein Obama

    GeneralMalaise (57a85b)

  412. Well said GeneralMalaise!

    norma (4d2079)

  413. We could put up a mile of concertina wire along that section of the border in about an hour. That would be the message to send to the Mexican federales.

    nk (db4a41)

  414. Comment by Dana — 6/10/2010 @ 6:32 pm

    Why wouldn’t the Mexican Police do anything to restrain the rock-throwers?

    Why would they do anything to endanger their paycheck?
    They’re on the pad, and anyone being of interest to the U.S.Border Patrol must be providing that pad.

    AD - RtR/OS! (e78fff)

  415. This area has been a source of smuggling since the sixties. Yes, it’s been that long. The Mexican police turn and look the other way when it is convenient to not see something (just like when the cartels took out an entire group at a rehab house last summer).

    norma (4d2079)

  416. Also, the Mexican drug cartels are even madder than usual at American law enforcement right now because Operation Deliverance is putting a real kink in their plans. We know some Mexican police are corrupt and have links to the cartels, including in Juarez, so the belligerent attitude shown by the Mexican police may not be a coincidence.

    DRJ (d43dcd)

  417. May I just say that the length of the comments on this post may indicate a sincere problem that needs to be addressed.

    Ag80 (1b8eea)

  418. To all of you who think rocks are not lethal:
    Read a little bit of history. The Israelis fought wars up to the 1950s with a rock and sling. The native Americans used rocks as well. Certain Australian tribes hunted animals with rocks.
    Rocks can be thrown by humans at speeds up to 90 miles per hour. Rocks are lethal at distances of 100 yards. Look it up! I dont need to go any further, but I will suggest that you have one of your friends stand 40 feet from you{a safe distance according to you} and let them bounce one off your head and then write all of us reading and tell us how it went. These Mexicans have played on our good American hearts to long.

    David B (f0d483)

  419. To the Spanish speaker:
    If you want to address Americans speak English, it is our language that is spoken here.We all know what Puta means so the same back to you. If you dont like America we respect that, but then dont come here. Many people say all the bad things about America but yet they sit and breast feed off of her. Take the boob out of your mouth and go somewhere else. There are many of us that would be glad to escort you.

    David B (f0d483)

  420. David B – greetings and salutations.

    Apparently you missed the joke regarding the Spanish speaker: it was posted by a regular poster, and the entire sentence was credited to President Obama … that is to say, General Malaise was mocking President Obama by putting certain Spanish words in his mouth.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  421. Also Eric : this should shut you up. The country of Kyrgystan overtook their military and KILLED multiple people with ………….ROCKS!Please google it and stop talking. Reading your posts are like arguing with someone who has been proved wrong a thousand ways but still tries to hang on to nothing.

    David B (f0d483)

  422. David B

    Bricks dropping from buildings and overpasses are not the same thing as pebbles thrown by children

    A Clearer version of the tape shows that the officer fired multiple times and advanced towards the rock throwers possibly crossing into mexican territory

    EricPWJohnson (cedf1d)

  423. No, EricPWJohnson, you are still making stuff up.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  424. Prove it

    EricPWJohnson (cedf1d)

  425. I already did prove it, repeatedly, in previous threads, EricPWJohnson. Your claims are fabrications.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  426. C’mon, SPQR. The Lord of the Lakes just wants to fight. Look how he has been spoiling for one on multiple threads. He even started moving toward insulting DRJ, and then (I’m guessing) realized that could get him in trouble, in all kinds of ways.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  427. SPQR is right to note it’s the work of an imaginative shill to whine about kids throwing pebbles and then switch to rock throwers only a couple of words later.

    How many people have proven that rock throwers like this can kill?

    Don’t throw rocks at people with guns, EPWJ. You are wrong to argue in defense of that disgusting violence, and I don’t know what’s wrong with you to say such shameful things about how it’s OK because bricks are more dangerous.

    EPWJ, all people deserve basic human rights and should be able to defend themselves from violence. What is it going to take to open your eyes that even Americans deserve to keep basic human rights? You are defending racism in the other thread, and you’re apologizing for nationality based attacks in this thread. Your views are wrong on the most basic and obvious levels. It’s hard to believe you are doing anything more than simply trolling.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  428. The Lord of the Lakes

    😀 hahahahaha

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  429. Eric Blair, I spent quite a bit of time in the original thread showing that EPWJ was claiming to have viewed video when his fabrications were obviously created without seeing any.

    Now he’s back, saying the same things, and thinks we have forgotten his previous comments and that he’d been shredded on them.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  430. Eric Blair, I spent quite a bit of time in the original thread s

    SPQR, that was a different thread, so everything you proved can simply be ignored by EPWJ.

    You did prove that he was shamelessly lying about having some video. But now he’s stopped lying now and he has some ‘new’ video showing that the border was crossed. We have to take him seriously, even though he lied about Hoffman, Breitbart, O’Keefe, racism, violence, politics, etc.

    to your goal of having a discussion based on truth, you won, but to his goal of concern trolling threads, he wins too.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  431. How many border patrol agents are killed each year? I’m tired of illegal immigrants and I certainly don’t want drugs coming over the border either.

    Jennifer (234024)

  432. Mexicans are stupid and we should close the border and put an electric fence because mexicans cause problems like here in El Paso T.X.
    Im glad they shot the kid Go Border Patrol!!! I hope he doesnt get fired.
    Your friend a real American kid Andy Soto age 12

    U.S.A!!!!!

    Andy Soto (e3c605)


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