USA Today: We Have Found an Anti-Arizona Backlash, As Evidenced by This Twitter Message
Could Arizona’s passage of a new immigration law spark a travel bonanza that could result in more travel-related business? It’s a question that a growing number of people are asking since Arizona’s passage last week of a law that promises real enforcement of existing immigration laws.
When it takes effect, Arizona’s immigration law will allow local law enforcement to question people’s immigration status, untying the hands of law enforcement from so-called “sanctuary city” policies that protect illegal immigrants. Interest is running high on both sides of the issue. One small example of how heated the debate is: In the roughly day and a half since USA TODAY posted a recent blog post on the issue, fully 4481 readers have submitted comments.
As for how or if the law will affect people’s travel habits, let’s look at some of the comments in question. Of the first 10 comments I read, the only ones that expressed an opinion about their travel plans were supportive of the law — and indicated the commenter’s desire to spend more travel dollars in Arizona. From this clear pattern, I sense a growing and significant approval of the new law — one that may well result in significant increased revenue for tourism-related businesses in the state.
For example, in the first 10 comments I read, golfballtx wrote: “Arizona here we come! Golf and good times!” clroger wrote: “I am visiting Arizona this summer. Thx Arizona!!” retatee wrote: “Three cheers for Arizona! I’ll try to visit as soon as possible.” NC Gentleman wrote: “After this law passes I am changing my vacation plans and I am going to the great state of Arizona. I refuse to go to California to get robbed by illegals.”
From this, I conclude that a growing an unstoppable wave of increased tourism dollars to Arizona is a very distinct possibility.
If this method of analysis sounds questionable or unscientific to you, take it up with Barbara De Lollis, the author of the USA Today blog post whose comments section I am quoting from. De Lollis’s profile says: “Barbara De Lollis has covered business travel for USA TODAY since 2002. She speaks directly to the hotel industry’s biggest names and taps the insider knowledge of the country’s savvy road warriors.” Her blog post is titled Arizona immigration law backlash? Traveler says state “is off my travel list for sure” and begins with this passage:
Could Arizona’s passage of a harsh immigration law spark a travel backlash that could result in less travel-related business? It’s a question that a growing number of people are asking since Arizona’s passage last week of the USA’s toughest immigration law.
If you’re paying attention, you will recognize this “a growing number of people are suggesting it may very well be so” sort of tone in the beginning of my blog post, which was a parody of De Lollis’s post.
What is Ms. De Lollis’s evidence of a possible travel backlash? Well, I have to admit it’s pretty overwhelming. To wit:
A single Twitter message.
As for how or if the law will affect peoples’ travel habits, Houston-based Twitter follower @Renard98 said in a reply tweet that “AZ is off my travel list for sure” for both business travel and leisure travel.
A frequent traveler, @Renard98 said he doesn’t have anything planned at the moment but “loves” to visit Tuscon and Scottsdale.
Well! If @Renard98 says he’s changing his plans, you can take that to the bank, baby! He’ll be changing his plans, or his name’s not @Renard98!
(Which, by the way, it pretty much certainly isn’t.)
Warner Todd Huston, who flagged this at Big Journalism, says: ‘This is the way the Old Media fans the flames of a story to spin it to their agenda.”
That’s exactly right. And a growing number of people agree with me — as the comments below will no doubt prove.
UPDATE: Another reason to go to Arizona: you won’t see Linda Greenhouse.
I’m sorry, but I haved to agree with the concrete contractor Dana on this issue. We can travel to Arizona but who fries our food, busses our tables, and makes our beds? We have illegal immigrants because we want and need cheap, willing, and grateful for the job labor.
nk (db4a41) — 4/27/2010 @ 6:54 pmWe have illegal immigrants because we want and need cheap, willing, and grateful for the job labor.
And there are hardly ANY downsides!
As long as you don’t count overcrowded jails, prisons, emergency rooms, freeways, and schools.
A small price to pay for cheaper lettuce, I think we would all agree.
The proof of the pudding will be in this comments section. Which will, I believe, very soon back me up, to a scientific degree of certainty acceptable to USA Today travel reporters.
(Commenters? Little help?)
Patterico (c218bd) — 4/27/2010 @ 6:58 pmLenin did coin the phrase “momentary interests”. That means we put up with what you said because more immediately we want what I said.
nk (db4a41) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:03 pmIn this fragile economy, with AZ hard hit by the housing collapse, a boycott will hurt. Early signs suggest the boycott’s going to be broad.
Recall that AZ lost the Super Bowl in 1993 over its refusal to recognize the King holiday.
First shots:
*The Arizona Hotel and Lodging Association said six organizations had canceled conventions in the state, including the 11,000-member Immigration Lawyers Association, which had planned to hold its annual fall meeting in Scottsdale.
*Activists are calling for fans to boycott the Diamondbacks and their merchandise and intend to try to derail the 2011 MLB All-Star game, set for Phoenix. Last I checked, there are a lot of Hispanic ballplayers in baseball: 27 percent of players were born outside the U.S. (and must carry their papers at all times while in AZ.)
The law, of course, or its worst provisions, will be struck down before it ever goes into effect.
So it’s a heavy price for the state to pay for a symbolic gesture. But if it gets immigration reform back on the table and lets Dems ride in with white hats with the No. 1 minority, while the Republicans play their usual role of Darth Vader — I’m for it. This is the year I think many Latinos drop the GOP for good.
Meanwhile, this issue has energized the left and is bringing the old and new activists together for a common cause, an energizing dose of old-school activism. Shows something good can come from just about anything, including this egregious violation of civil rights.
Myron (6a93dd) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:03 pmAnd now that my godson is going to Rensellear in New York, I have no reason to travel to Arizona, anyway, although the mountains of Sedona on a Harley are a capstone.
nk (db4a41) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:06 pmThe rise of the reported employment rate to 10% — the actual rate is likely much higher — shows that we need amnesties and added incentives to further encourage illegal immigration. Jobs Americans won’t do, all that. This is a much better way forward than employers raising wages and improving working conditions to attract legal employees.
… Does that make sense? About as much sense as sanctuary and amnesty policies do.
AMac (fa304c) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:13 pmI deal with many different distributors/wholesalers located in States other than CA. If I can get a product that my customers are requesting from a source in AZ, I will, even if the price is a few percent higher.
AD - RtR/OS! (2ebc1d) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:16 pmIn fact, my primary supplier IS in AZ, he might be getting even more of my business.
Myron,
I am a U.S. citizen, the son of U.S. citizens, the grandson of somebody who came to America in 1896, but I was born abroad and have a foreign accent in every language. I agree with you to this extent: If one of pervert Joe Arpaio’s deputies stop me and ask me for identification I will tell them, “I don’t need identification, I know who I am”.
nk (db4a41) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:16 pmI once left my heart in San Francisco, but I will be spending my hard-earned tourist dollars in Arizona. Haven’t seen the Grand Canyon in a while and a houseboat vacation at Lake Powell out of Page, AZ., sounds too good to pass up.
GeneralMalaise (0a752b) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:19 pmthis issue has energized the left.
Which is all fine and good, but what about that “rule of law” business that the left likes to toss around like a frisbee?
Sure, sure, I know the Arizona law is an affront to all that is good and right in the world. But what about federal law?
What’s wrong with enforcing federal immigration laws? Why would anyone get “energized” by its proper enforcement other than to say thank you for finally assuming the duties outlined by federal law.
I mean, they are here illegally, as in: They are breaking the law.
Also, I’m all for civil rights. I’m all for the property owners in Arizona having some protection against illegal trespass, but nobody on the left seems to have their civil rights in mind.
Also, I seriously doubt Arizona will pay a “heavy price.”
Ag80 (f67beb) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:20 pmComment by nk — 4/27/2010 @ 7:16 pm
If you’re not doing anything wrong, and providing them with “reasonable suspician”, they won’t be stopping you.
AD - RtR/OS! (2ebc1d) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:29 pmBut, if they do have a valid reason to stop you, and you smart-off like that, you deserve to spend a night in the Grey-bar Hotel, and you know it, counselor!
I am curious to see if the new law will stop the 200,000+ snowbirds from coming to my small city next winter. I can’t see it happening.
I fully support our governor. Even John McCain is pretending he supports the new law.
One good thing is Myron won’t be visiting. What more could we ask?
PatAZ (9d1bb3) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:30 pmTrue story, AD. A cop asked me my name. I gave him my ID. He thought that was insolent. He wanted me to talk. F__k them. Pay somebody to f__k them.
nk (db4a41) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:32 pmOh, Happy Days!
AD - RtR/OS! (2ebc1d) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:33 pmNo Myron, No Intelliology.
You should have handed him a Miranda Card with your ID.
AD - RtR/OS! (2ebc1d) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:35 pmYou know, AD, you don’t need to win every battle. It’s ok to lose as long as you fight well. Maybe a cop who violates my civil rights while armed with a firearm will not go to prison for a minimum of twelve years like Ramos and Compean but I will never know if I pussy out and let him do it.
nk (db4a41) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:38 pmMyron wouldn’t be running his mouth for long down there, I reckon.
GeneralMalaise (0a752b) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:39 pmMyron’s “heavy price” is hilarious since Arizonans are already paying a heavy price for the Federal government’s failure to secure their border. And they know it.
That’s why this law is so popular both within and without Arizona. The “boycott” will be meaningless. The symbolism here is the handful of left-wing organizations that will actually do something, compared to the action-less noise of the remaining 99%.
SPQR (26be8b) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:40 pmnk:
I have bad news for you: If you try that and have ID, you’re probably going to jail, whether its “pervert Joe’s” deputy or any other officer from across the fruited plain. Try it in New York City, for example.
By the same token, if you don’t have ID, a trip to the local cop shop is almost a certainty.
Sure, you may beat the rap, but you will be able to experience your tax dollars at work for a while.
Police have a very difficult job and, quite frankly, they don’t suffer fools. If they have a reason to stop you, they expect you to cooperate. If you don’t, they usually will comply with your notion of official overreach.
Ag80 (f67beb) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:40 pmYou kiss yer mother with that mouth, nk?
GeneralMalaise (0a752b) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:41 pm“Shows something good can come from just about anything, including this egregious violation of civil rights.”
Myron – Could you please specify exactly what violation of civil rights you mean? Your track record of accuracy on this blog is not very good.
daleyrocks (1d0d98) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:41 pmnk: I hear you.
And I was being somewhat flip last message: I am not for the law, period, even if it spurs a real attempt at reform. I do not support harassment of people based on some hazy standard of “reasonable suspicion” that they may be illegal.
I do support giving officers ICE training so when they stop somebody ON SUSPICION OF A CRIME, then they can run checks and turn them over to ICE, if its warranted. I think AZ already allows that.
And we need more troops on the border. A sovereign nation has every right — and a duty — to protect its borders.
Myron (6a93dd) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:41 pmJust one more… MOUTH!
Trifecta!
GeneralMalaise (0a752b) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:41 pmI’ve spent significant time living in southwestern border states and I’ve seen for myself the costs and burdens imposed by illegal immigration. They far outweigh any benefits.
DRJ (09fa6c) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:44 pm“We have illegal immigrants because we want and need cheap, willing, and grateful for the job labor.”
nk – You mean we have a source of willing labor cheaper than American labor? I don’t buy the jobs Americans won’t do BS. Everything has a price or the job adapts.
daleyrocks (1d0d98) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:44 pm20.You kiss yer mother with that mouth, nk?
Comment by GeneralMalaise — 4/27/2010 @ 7:41 pm
My mother died this past Wednesday and we buried her this past Saturday and if I knew who you are and where you live you piece of garbage they would be burying you next. And I don’t care if Patterico bans me for this.
Stop talking to me when I don’t talk you, garbage, or else tell me you real name and address and we’ll deal with it face to face.
nk (db4a41) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:46 pmLooking forward to traveling AZ now that all the mental giants are boycotting the state.
SteveCan (72a7f6) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:49 pmMy goodness, nk.
I guess you’re one of those guys that like to be protected by the police when it’s convenient.
Are there bad cops? Sure. So let’s just go ahead and condemn every one of them because you were offended one time.
Wait a second, isn’t that exactly opposite of what you’re trying to convince us of?
Ag80 (f67beb) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:50 pm“I do not support harassment of people based on some hazy standard of “reasonable suspicion” that they may be illegal.”
Myron – You are in agreement with Governor Brewer. Why are your panties in a wad? A requirement for an alien to show identification upon request has been a law on this country’s books since 1940. This stuff is not new.
Obama is poisoning the well once again, as he did with the KSM trial, before the DOJ has had a chance to “review” the law. What a dork!
daleyrocks (1d0d98) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:51 pmAll this angry violent rhetoric from the left is causing real violence. Those rocks and bottles thrown at the police in Arizona did not look fake to me.
You don’t see stuff like that at Tea Party rallies.
daleyrocks (1d0d98) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:55 pmAg80,
I live in a relatively tiny village and the police are my friends. I teach my eight year old daughter that the police are her friends.
A totally different scenario from being stopped because of my Indian skin, and Mongolian eyes, and Greek accent, and asked for ID.
nk (db4a41) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:55 pmI guess we found an issue that gets Myron all hot and bothered as much as the dishonesty from the health care reform debate.
Quelle horror that the feds refuse to address enforcement of existing laws, leaving the states to fend for themselves. Then, when they actually try to do something about it, Myron gets the vapors.
Sadly for people like Myron, over 70% of the people in Arizona support this, as they live daily with the results of the fecklessness of the Feds. However, the Dems will push amnesty and some token border security, and the American people will see through it in a heartbeat.
Cue the wailing, gnashing of teeth, and rending of garments, accompanied by the standard leftist cant of RACISTS!
https://patterico.com/2010/04/27/usa-today-we-have-found-an-anti-arizona-backlash-as-evidenced-by-this-twitter-message/#comment-654520
JD (c1a2b8) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:57 pmnk – Sorry to hear about your mother. May you both find peace.
daleyrocks (1d0d98) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:58 pmThank you, daleyrocks.
nk (db4a41) — 4/27/2010 @ 7:59 pmRemember when the left was wailing about hateful rhetoric leading to violence? Turns out that the left could be counted on to resort to violence, yet again. Remember when the left was wailing about references to Hitler and Nazis, and how that was beyond the pale of any rational discourse? Turns out that standard only applies when it is aimed their way, they do not hesitate to do so. And, you all are racist racist racist.
JD (c1a2b8) — 4/27/2010 @ 8:03 pmThe argument that we need and want cheap labor makes me think people want us to become a Kuwait or Saudi Arabia where we import the laborers to do all the dirty work while we sit in our nice air conditioned offices.
I have worked at a company where Mexicans made up half the laborers. They were great workers but we could have filled the crews with domestic labor. But because it was seasonal work the Mexicans went home over the winter and didn’t apply for unemployment.
There are no jobs Americans won’t do. There are a lot of unskilled workers in this country (see the high school dropout rate). If the government would make it easier to employ legal employees we wouldn’t have such a high unemployment rate.
MU789 (13091a) — 4/27/2010 @ 8:04 pmMy grandfather left America in 1912 to fight in one of the stupidest of all wars. He sent his children back to America when police departments could not get recruits because the factories were paying better. Ok, we don’t have factories now but we still need hands to do other work.
nk (db4a41) — 4/27/2010 @ 8:05 pmhttp://hotair.com/archives/2010/04/27/rasmussen-majority-of-latinos-in-arizona-support-letting-cops-check-for-immigration-status/
I intended to link this previously. As noted, there are sampling issues, but not with the overall figure. Plus, sampling never stops the MSM from running their BS polls.
Sorry to hear that, nk.
JD (c1a2b8) — 4/27/2010 @ 8:07 pmThis subject is so weird it is hard to even know what to say. You read the papers and most news sites or blogs today and they report that there is “trouble”, “pushback against Arizona immigration law”, threatened boycott may hurt Arizona economy”, “baseball, tourism caught in calls for economic boycott”, “civil disobedience new tactic in immigration reform fight”, “protesters arrested after stopping van of deportees”, “national backlash against state’s tough new law is growing”. Wow. Just. Wow.
Yet, every person I know–every single person I’ve spoken with about this–or even anyone I have overheard discussing this, is saying in effect, “You GO Arizona!!!! It’s about time somebody stepped up to the plate to curb this nonsense.
The media hysteria, manipulation, and misinformation that is going on is almost unbelievable even to cynical me. The accusations of racism and the push to conflate legal immigration with illegal immigration makes my head explode. The attempt to equate an AZ police officer asking to see a person’s immigration documents (or my driver’s license) with the yellow stars of David and transporting Jews to concentration camps—well, it makes my skin crawl with indignation. It is like we are living in an alternate universe of some sort. What has happened to us?
OK, Yeah, I know I need a glass of wine to calm down.
elissa (b8aaf9) — 4/27/2010 @ 8:25 pmThe argument against this AZ law seems to be that people might abuse it and be racist towards Mexicans. Real intellectual stuff.
Here’s an excellent commentary on the whole situation I came across: http://rjmoeller.com/2010/04/obama-to-arizona-play-fair/
Dusty (7c12c7) — 4/27/2010 @ 8:25 pmAs MSNBC told us yesterday, “Law makes it a crime to be illegal”.
Someone’s head should have assploded. Stupidity like that should be both visible and painful.
JD (c1a2b8) — 4/27/2010 @ 8:26 pmelissa – That just proves your racism, though it was never really in question.
JD (c1a2b8) — 4/27/2010 @ 8:28 pmnk:
My condolences on your loss, also.
And if you were stopped for the reason you cited, that was wrong. But stereotyping is easy, whether you are discussing police or illegal aliens. We’re all guilty of it, and I, as much as anybody, needs the occasional reminder.
Ag80 (f67beb) — 4/27/2010 @ 8:31 pmI think that anyone found to be in the country illegally, as a result of this law, should be given a one-way bus ticket to either San Francisco or Washington DC.
JD (c1a2b8) — 4/27/2010 @ 8:43 pm“This stuff is not new.”
Daley: Then why the need for a new law?
The “reasonable suspicion” power has not been granted to local law enforcement before. That’s the part that’s new and that’s the part I believe will not stand in court. This essentially federalizes local law enforcement to do the federal job of immigration enforcement. The law will fall on the same grounds Prop 187 did.
I’m surprised more conservatives are not speaking out againt this, though there have been a few such as Marc Rubio and even Tom Tancredo.
What happened to your alleged love of small government? You’re now supporting federalized officers demanding papers based on eyeballin’ someone and concluding they’re illegal?
And, for the record, my record of accuracy on this blog has been just fine. I hope you’re not confusing facts with opinions.
Myron (6a93dd) — 4/27/2010 @ 8:48 pmnk, I’m very sorry to hear about the loss of your mother. My sympathies to you and your family.
elissa, no matter what the issue, make an accusation of “racism” against those you disagree with and immediately it’s caused a necessary distraction from facts and evidence while conveniently losing the actual heart of the matter in an ensuing mess of heated emotionalism.
Accusing a group of people of “racism” is an amazingly effective weapon and that’s why the left continually pulls it our of their arsenal. It works. Name an issue that voters have roundly sounded off on in protest that the accusation of “racism” hasn’t been made.
My question would be, why don’t expect this to happen and prepare for it’s inevitability/
Dana (1e5ad4) — 4/27/2010 @ 8:51 pmLaw makes it a crime to be illegal. This is what Myron is arguing against, what he is insinuating that you are racist, because he does not have the stones to just say it.
This alleged love of small government argument is the biggest pile of leftist hoo-ha since their lies that HCR would be deficit neutral. Asking the government to do something that they are actually tasked with doing is not some big government idea.
That is a lie, and you are a liar. The law, as written, does not allow that, nor does the accompanying Executive Order. So much for your record of accuracy. See – deficit neutrality.
JD (c1a2b8) — 4/27/2010 @ 8:55 pmFrom a Daily Caller piece, “Avoiding hypocrisy on immigration.” Might be a good read for a few folks here, who might fancy themselves small-government conservatives:
Principled conservatives should be skeptical of Arizona’s recent decision to grant police the power to question illegal aliens (and U.S. citizens) about their immigration status—and to arrest those who cannot show documentation.
The problem, of course, is not what this law does to illegal aliens (who are, by definition, already committing a crime)—but what it does U.S. citizens—many of whom may now endure repeated questioning from police for merely walking down the street …
… Supporting tough “law-and-order” immigration laws and individual liberty are not mutually exclusive. What is hypocritical, however, is picking (and) choosing when it’s okay for the government to violate citizens’ individual liberty.
Conservatives should exercise philosophical consistency here. This is a bad decision. Conservative activist Grover Norquist has dubbed the conservative movement the “leave us alone coalition,” and as Justice Brandeis might have said, this law infringes Arizonans’ “right to be left alone” — free from government intrusion. Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer (R) should have vetoed it.
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2010/04/27/avoiding-hypocrisy-on-immigration/#ixzz0mMboRNpq
Myron (6a93dd) — 4/27/2010 @ 8:56 pmnk, I think that arguing over the accuracy of contrarian posters pales in comparison to your recent loss.
The only good that can come of such a thing is a reminder that family and friends are more important than scoring silly political points.
My condolences. I need to go call my parents now and tell them that I love them.
Eric Blair (fbdd84) — 4/27/2010 @ 8:57 pmI am pretty certain that I will not take my political cues from my political opponents, especially ones that haven’t proven to engage honestly, or in good faith. YMMV
JD (c1a2b8) — 4/27/2010 @ 9:00 pmThis article, by Bryon York, someone that I am not particularly a fan of, is quite interesting. It discusses this law with one of the lawyers involved in crafting the language. And it does a good job of showing how the breathless claims of leftists like Myron are pure unadulterated hokum.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/Byron-York/A-carefully-crafted-immigration-law-in-Arizona-92136104.html
JD (c1a2b8) — 4/27/2010 @ 9:03 pmYou’re now supporting federalized officers demanding papers based on eyeballin’ someone and concluding they’re illegal?
The usual falsehood.
SPQR (26be8b) — 4/27/2010 @ 9:17 pmOf course you are right, Dana. It is to be expected that the left and their media lapdogs will pull “racist” accusations out of their quiver at every possible opportunity no matter how inappropriate and ridiculous. But frankly I think lots of voting, taxpaying, people are getting pretty tired of hearing it mis-applied to themselves, which may account somewhat for the falling Dem poll numbers.
What is so unfortunate though, IMO, is that slinging it around with abandon and misusing it cheapens and negates the very word itself. Kind of like the little boy who cried “wolf”. There still does exist in the world pockets of real and egregious racism. Yet because it is so overused, the word has almost ceased to have any real meaning or impact.
elissa (b8aaf9) — 4/27/2010 @ 9:20 pmOkay, I used to be Alta Bob, but now it’s Arizona Bob.
Actually this is my wife and my 10th year in a row traveling to Arizona. I go to Arizona each March, starting with the Indian Market in Phoenix and usually spending most of the rest of the week in Tucson where I highly recommend the seeing the Sonoran Desert Museum and Kartchner Caverns. This year we did some bird watching in Patagonia. Tombstone and Bisbee are relatively close by.
I’ve been all over Arizona. In the summer, I recommend you visit Sedona, Flagstaff, the Grand Canyon, Monument Valley, Canyon de Chelly, etc. The higher altitude in Northern Arizons keeps the temps moderate. Nothing gets over 85. And in the afternoon you get little thunder showers, which provide some entertainment. I’ve seen a hail storm in the middle of summer in Flagstaff and when it was over, it was 80 degrees.
Last September, I went to the North Rim of the Grand Canyon for the first time. Great hiking and less of a crowd. I’ve stayed at the Hopi Reservation and the Navajo Reservation.
I have no clue why I am so connected to AZ but I am. I am flying the Arizona flag on our front porch.
Arizona Bob (e8af2b) — 4/27/2010 @ 9:25 pm“Then why the need for a new law?”
I’m not actually a conservative, but probably close enough for you.
The reason conservatives are not speaking out against Arizona’s law is because the federal law that should manage the problem is not being enforced. That’s it. It’s simple.
And, of course, “reasonable suspicion” mandates have passed muster before. However, I will give you your due. The Arizona law probably will be overturned.
And, despite the Daily Caller’s vapors, government intrusion is a fact of life for law-abiding citizens. Have you ever been audited? Ever been late on your property taxes? Ever been stopped for a traffic violation when you were really, really unaware of the speed limit sign?
Enforcement of the law can, and will, intrude on the lives of normally law-abiding citizens.
Nonetheless, are we supposed to assume that illegal aliens are a protected class of non-citizens simply because they choose to flaunt federal law?
And, if so, why is the United States different from every other country on Earth in affording non-citizens these rights?
We are indeed a nation of immigrants, but we can require that immigrants follow our laws. The enforcement and consequences of breaking those laws is not necessarily an affront to civil rights, even if it discomforts the law-abiding.
Again, why is the precious “rule of law” thrown to the wind only when it applies to illegal aliens?
Ag80 (f67beb) — 4/27/2010 @ 9:28 pmYou said it real good at #55 Ag80.
elissa (b8aaf9) — 4/27/2010 @ 9:33 pmWhy? Because there are ulterior motives involved, political motives.
But, one thing they (the Left) ignores, is that by giving the illegals (and the Mexican-American community at large) a pass on enforcing immigration laws, the engender a disrespect for all laws by the favored community, a disrespect that many of us in the South-West see on a daily basis:
Disrespect for traffic laws, and disrespect for zoning laws, among others.
This is the attitude we see on these newscasts of demonstrators protesting AZ’s attempt to enforce the sovereignty of their State and Country.
They demand the protection of U.S. law, but carry-high the Mexican flag.
They demand employment in the United States, but expect us to learn Spanish.
It is an “interesting” situation.
nk…as someone who also lost a parent after a long, dibilitating illness, I know your loss, and you have my sincere condolences.
AD - RtR/OS! (2ebc1d) — 4/27/2010 @ 9:53 pmMexico issues travel alert on Arizona
Mexican President Felipe Calderon on Monday said the measure “criminalizes” the largely social and economic phenomenon of migration. He warned that it would damage long-standing economic, cultural and commercial ties between Mexico and Arizona.
The law “opens the door to intolerance, to hatred, to discrimination and to abuse,” Calderon said at a meeting of the government-affiliated Institute for Mexicans Abroad, which works on behalf of the millions of Mexicans who live outside the country — most in the U.S.
He pledged to use “all resources available” to defend Mexicans who run afoul of the law and ordered the five Mexican consulates in Arizona to redouble assistance offered to Mexican nationals.
No surprise there but would it kill him to acknowledge that it’s precisely because of the gigantic mess his country is in that has driven millions of his citizens to break the law and enter our country???
Dana (1e5ad4) — 4/27/2010 @ 9:53 pmnk~ Sorry to hear about your mom. Give your daughter an extra hug today for me.
EW1(SG) (edc268) — 4/27/2010 @ 9:58 pm“And, for the record, my record of accuracy on this blog has been just fine. I hope you’re not confusing facts with opinions.”
LOL
Myron – Why do you object to the enforcement of our laws? You have already stated that we have a right to territorial integrity. Just have the testicular fortitude to say you don’t think our immigration laws should not be enforced. That is what you are advocating.
daleyrocks (1d0d98) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:00 pmAnd, despite the Daily Caller’s vapors, government intrusion is a fact of life for law-abiding citizens. Have you ever been audited? Ever been late on your property taxes? Ever been stopped for a traffic violation when you were really, really unaware of the speed limit sign?
AG: The law goes beyond anything you’ve mentioned here. It jettisons “probable cause.” All these things you’re talking about are cases where the citizen did something to spur the government action. What you are talking about simply does not address my argument or concerns, or Jeb Bush’s arguments or concerns, or Tom Tancredo’s arguments are concerns, at all.
You and others seem to be trying to pretend that the law changes nothing, yet no one who has really looked at the law believes that, or else there’d have been no need for the law.
Myron (a79d53) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:01 pmThat is a lie, and you are a liar. You apparently cannot help yourself.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/Byron-York/A-carefully-crafted-immigration-law-in-Arizona-92136104.html
JD (c1a2b8) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:05 pm“The law goes beyond anything you’ve mentioned here. It jettisons “probable cause.””
Myron – Weren’t you just trying to defend your accuracy here? OOOPS!
daleyrocks (1d0d98) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:08 pmSpeaking of Jeb Bush, he said of the law:
“I think it creates unintended consequences. It’s difficult for me to imagine how you’re going to enforce this law. It places a significant burden on local law enforcement and you have civil liberties issues that are significant as well.”
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0410/36427.html#replyform#ixzz0mMtU8iBo
He said he will join other conservatives in an open press conference call to push for re-start in immigration reform efforts. I applaud him for that.
Also from Politico:
The former governor recounted how, after he gave a speech Monday night in California, he was approached by a Hispanic man who was concerned about the measure leading to racial profiling and unfair targeting of Latinos.
“He said, ‘My parents live here, my grandparents live here — I’m Mexican-American,'” Bush recalled, adding that the man said, “‘I could be picked up.'”
Bush didn’t mention his own wife, who is full-blood Mexican, and his children, who are half. They also could be picked up if they don’t have papers on them.
His brother, as you know, proposed a good immigration reform bill in 2006 that was shot down by members of his own party.
I don’t know if he will be on the conference call, but I hope so. That would super-charge the issue and actually help your side, though none of you will realize it.
Myron (a79d53) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:09 pmI suppose we should just take Myron at his word, and ignore what someone who worked on writing the language for the law has to say about it.
JD (c1a2b8) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:09 pmFrom a Daily Caller piece, “Avoiding hypocrisy on immigration.” Might be a good read for a few folks here, who might fancy themselves small-government conservatives:
I think the ultimate hypocrites are all the liberals who fancy themselves so beautifully humane and tolerant, so embracing of diversity, and yet who undoubtedly have to be contributing to the phenomenon described below. And the burden does fall on them, or, in general, on the two-faced nature of a culture whose people, in fact, are more socially liberal today than they were decades ago.
Nothing more laughable than all the phony-baloney folks on the left who try to sound so noble and enlightened about “huddled masses yearning to breathe free,” and yet who in far too many instances avoid moving to certain neighborhoods and — most crucially — avoid sending their precious children to schools where the student body is predominantly…[cue image of a liberal looking sheepish, a bit tongue-tied, and then feigning surprise and ignorance about the schools in question].
Keep in mind that places like Los Angeles and New York City are loaded down with people who symbolize the epitome of what this is all about—ie, limousine liberalism. So when they want to sound indignant about things like “oh, that mean, heartless, hayseed law in Arizona,” they need to look in the mirror and — as the acronym goes — STFU.
Mark (411533) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:11 pmAs well as by Dems, and a majority of the country. But we know what you think about the public’s wishes.
JD (c1a2b8) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:11 pm“Speaking of Jeb Bush, he said of the law:”
Myron – Of course we have no idea whether all these people quoted in the press about the bill merely are reacting to the inaccurate media descriptions of the bill, like yourself, or whether they understand its real provisions.
daleyrocks (1d0d98) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:14 pmThe eternal leftist conceit. They believe themselves to be smarter, more caring, and all-around better people.
Myron, the leftist JournoList type is honest in this regard, he believes himself to be superior to those that do not share his views. Usually they are not kind enough to be so open about it.
JD (c1a2b8) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:14 pm“His brother, as you know, proposed a good immigration reform bill in 2006 that was shot down by members of his own party.”
Myron – Only 21% of the country was in favor of the 2006 immigration reform proposal. I’ll bet that’s a figure you’d like to forget right about now.
daleyrocks (1d0d98) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:17 pmFOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON, EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION. ANY PERSON WHO IS ARRESTED SHALL HAVE THE PERSON’S IMMIGRATION STATUS DETERMINED BEFORE THE PERSON IS RELEASED. THE PERSON’S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c). A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR ARIZONA CONSTITUTION. A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE.
2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE.
3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL IDENTIFICATION.
4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.
Now, Myron. Where, exactly, is probable cause jettisoned?
JD (c1a2b8) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:21 pmJD: You have chosen an article from a partisan that agrees with your made-up-mind, an article that incidentally does not even mention the words “probable cause” and on that basis you choose to insult me, which is in line with the general character you often display here.
Tom Ridge, a Republican and former Homeland Security issue, a guy who might know a little about immigration law said: “he’s uncomfortable with Arizona’s new immigration law, saying it allows police to question people without probable cause.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/27/AR2010042705960.html
Mesa (AZ) Assistant Police Chief John Meza, who oversees police operations, said lawmakers “have changed the law from having probable cause to reasonable suspicion. Well what is reasonable suspicion? How do I know someone is in the country illegally? That’s where the training comes in.”
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/04/27/20100427mesa-immigration-law-police.html
Maybe Meza knows a little bit about enforcement of Arizona law, ya think?
But I’m not going to call you a liar, JD, or any names, because I’m bigger than you.
I’ll simply say you’re “misguided,” like this law.
Myron (a79d53) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:30 pmJD: re: No. 67. If he had gotten the Repubs on board, he’d have gotten enough Dems to pass it. If you know anything about politics, you know that. But no way the Dems are going to jump on his side when they knew he didn’t have the votes.
Myron (a79d53) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:34 pmI’ll bet that’s a figure you’d like to forget right about now.
I don’t think the figure, if it’s accurate, is all that important. You’re never going to get a majority of people in our polarized society to love a major piece of legislation that changes the whole country. There are too many entry points for critics to attack and rip it up.
I do recall polls at the time that showed support for many individual parts of the bill, if not all the major individual parts. Similar to health care.
Myron (a79d53) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:36 pmI don’t even like York, Myron. I suppose you chose to ignore the words from one of the author’s of the law. I gave you the text of the law, and asked you to show where probable cause was jettisoned. You aren’t calling me a liar because I did not lie.
FWIW, I suppose none of the quotes and links provided by you were chosen because of what they said, or who was saying it. They are pure and objective and non-partisan. I really like how you think that just because some Republican official says something, that you think we will all just fall in lockstep with their opinions.
Since the federal government refuses to enforce the law, and uphold their duties, why should Arizona not step in? You are comfortably over 2000 miles away.
JD (c1a2b8) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:37 pmJD: I don’t mind Arizona stepping in. I just think the law is overbroad and will lead to racial profiling and violations of people’s constitutional rights. This is not really an extreme opinion. I never thought I’d be on the same side as Tom Tancredo for Pete’s sake. You are more extreme on this issue than Tom Tancredo. Think about that.
Again, where are the prominent voices — outside of York — on the conservative side giving a full-throated endorsement of this law?
I would hope everyone agrees that government has not done enough to secure the borders. It’s obvious: There are 450,000+ illegal immigrants in Arizona.
Arizona has cracked down in other ways, but clearly they need help. Inasmuch as the law is a clear, if misguided, call for help, I understand that.
Myron (a79d53) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:43 pm21% public support is not at all important, daleyrocks. Hell, it is not even a big minority position, much less anywhere near a majority opinion.
Maybe if they had chosen to enforce the existing laws, they would have been more successful. Fact is, Myron, that comprehensive immigration reform got killed because the congresscritters heard from their constituents that they did not want amnesty, in a big way. You choose to ignore that, because it does not fit in your narrative.
Good use of weasel words there, because you well know that amnesty does not garner public support.
JD (c1a2b8) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:43 pmMyron:
What is your point, Myron? Is it that Meza opposes the law? He expressed concern about it, but not because it could not be implemented. He’s worried about how much it will cost to train his officers to understand and apply the legal standard of “reasonable suspicion,” which is a standard legal term used in criminal law that as a police chief, Chief Meza is familiar with.
In fact, Chief Meza discusses at your link how some of his officers have already been trained to do what the Arizona law requires — because in March they completed training under the federal 287(g) program that “allows local officers to enforce federal immigration law after undergoing six weeks of training.” In other words, in the past month, some of his officers have already been identifying possible illegal immigrants and they have already been turned over to federal officials.
DRJ (09fa6c) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:45 pmSorry, Myron, but you may need to go back to the earlier threads on the intent of law.
Arizona took action because of the failure of the federal government to enforce existing federal law. What else is a state to do? Give up? Hope that you come down there to make everything right?
The world is full of people and they all have an interest in making things better.
Some decide that they must stop global warming or save the whales or to stop nukes or to prevent wars.
Others do so for personal reasons and sometimes it’s as simple as stopping an invasion of unknown people from crapping on their property and killing their neighbors.
One is “good” and the other is “fascist.”
But, to tell you the truth, I’m going to go with the latter. Not because they’re really fascists, but because they are trying to do the best they can.
Life is not easy, but doing what’s best for the people you know and love is. After that, you can move on to the bigger issues.
Ag80 (f67beb) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:46 pmJD: Amnesty was never on the table, though that was a handy talking point.
Worker visas were a key component of the Bush plan. And the path to citizenship proposed was a years-long process that involved hefty fines.
What Reagan did was Amnesty: “You’re all in, right now, immediately, with no consequences.”
Look up what the word “amnesty” means, you’ll see I’m right.
Myron (a79d53) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:47 pmMyron – Do you even f@cking know what my position is on this bill? No, you most certainly do not, as evidenced by the nonsense you keep typing. I will give you a hint, I am not a big fan of it. Having said that, the hyperbolic language and breathless outrage from the left is ridiculous, and that is what I have been addressing here. Add to the law above the Governor’s Executive Order, and it clearly shows not only their intent, but their desire to see that it is implemented in a manner consistent with our principles. But people like you choose to ignore that, so you can try to score political points by labeling people anti-immigrant or racist as opposed to them being anti-illegal-immigration. That the media aids and abets you and yours in your pursuit of this is something that is noxious.
JD (c1a2b8) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:49 pmplease DRJ, don’t confuse Moran with facts: his “mind” is already made up.
redc1c4 (fb8750) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:51 pmFine, Myron. Let’s poll “path to citizenship” and “go home and come back legally” and see which the public prefers. That is really beside the point. The idea that it was a good bill that could have or should have got passed is laughable. It was opposed by the left and the right and the public.
JD (c1a2b8) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:53 pmNow, I bid you a goodnight. And to my friends, a really good night.
JD (c1a2b8) — 4/27/2010 @ 10:54 pmComing from a society that is as screwed up as it is — where news of people being killed, chopped up into pieces and stuffed into suitcases is becoming routine — the following snippet is hilarious. It’s not too different from all the foolish politicians (most of them of the left) in this country who’ve called for boycotts of Arizona. Politicians presiding over cities (eg Los Angeles) or states (eg California) struggling with red ink or various forms of perennial stagnation/decline. Perennial stagnation or decline due in part to some of the socio-economic quirks of places north of the border acquiring more of the socio-economic quirks of places south of the border.
Mark (411533) — 4/27/2010 @ 11:05 pmFirst of all,
Arizona has the right to enforce it’s own laws and I support that.
Second, my experience is that Mexican labor is superior in some of the harsher trades. Quality can be taught and productivity at a competitive price counts.
Kids that have grown up on Mexican farms, construction sites, know that you either bust ass from dawn to dark or you do not eat.
Third, there is a huge social cost. Mexicans lose their culture and Americans adjust their own to accommodate them. Both lose something.
Southwestern jails are full of the US citizen by birth sons and daughters of humble, hard working illegal immigrants.
If it was up to me, I’d be happy to pay the guy who can produce the greatest quality, at the highest volume, with the best attitude… everything would go swimmingly. The work would be great, the kids would be Rhodes Scholars and Eagle Scouts… but reality intrudes…. and begs for questions like: Who brings a gun to the quinciniera of a girl who is 3 months pregnant?
I’m going to check my library for that old “Peoples Guide to Mexico” and hope for some insights
Steve G (7d4c78) — 4/27/2010 @ 11:48 pmAs I have stated earlier, the Left, when confronted with the indiocy of what they have brought about
AD - RtR/OS! (2ebc1d) — 4/27/2010 @ 11:51 pm(in this case, the non-enforcement of a bi-partisan immigration reform passed by a Dem House, and a GOP Senate in 1986) resort to hysteria.
With Shall-Issue CCW, it’s “The streets will run red with blood from every case of road rage”; and in this case, they drag out the tired, racist meme of profiling, and civil-liberties violations. None have been shown to be accurate.
Every law has the potential to be abused. This one is not exceptional in that regard.
Sorry…idiocy…
AD - RtR/OS! (2ebc1d) — 4/27/2010 @ 11:51 pmI insist that my idiocy is far superior to yours
“yield?”
Steve G (7d4c78) — 4/28/2010 @ 12:12 amAs someone who has lived 42 out of his 44 years on this planet in Arizona; as someone who was pulled over by a Border Patrol officer in 1986 because said officer had a reasonable suspicion that my beater 1971 Buick, which I was driving on the back-road up from Nogales, may have been ferrying illegals; as someone who was the victim of a head-on collision (in 1988) with an intoxicated illegal immigrant that fled the scene in order to avoid detention & deportation; let me tell you something, Myopic:
You simply are out of your depth here. Beyond voicing your opinion that you don’t like the law but you want our borders secured, you aren’t making (or scoring) any points. Citing some Republicans and/or conservatives that are uncomfortable with the law does not prove anything, except that maybe they are as uninformed about the law as you are. Ya see, unlike the Left — who only criticize their fellow liberals during primary season — conservatives are always willing to voice honest disagreement with their peers.
Icy Texan (0cfaa3) — 4/28/2010 @ 3:07 amFor what it’s worth, my anecdotal experience with anti-immigrant bias (not just anti-illegal) is that it is more common in the second generation of immigrants’ descendants and in black Americans and not so much in the Sawyers, and Johnsons and Smiths. Possibly because they see themselves competing for the same things. ?
There’s actually a joke in Chicago. A DP is somebody who has been in the country five years less than you have.
nk (db4a41) — 4/28/2010 @ 4:00 amI’m sorry about your loss, nk. But I meant no insult, just a flippant comment on your use of the F-bomb.
Peace.
GeneralMalaise (0a752b) — 4/28/2010 @ 7:13 amI wonder which one of our racist trolls posted that …
JD (d55760) — 4/28/2010 @ 7:28 amForget it, GM. Sometimes this site is like we’re sitting around the fountain in the village square and sometimes it’s like a drunken brawl in a bar.
Peace to you, too, and thanks to everybody.
nk (db4a41) — 4/28/2010 @ 7:29 amWow, the trolls are really out in force on this thread.
FatBaldnSassy (9520fd) — 4/28/2010 @ 9:26 amThey never miss a chance to call people that they disagree with RACISTS !!!!!!!
JD (d55760) — 4/28/2010 @ 9:28 amSo Arizona should bend over for a boycott by a bunch of Bendict Arnolds, Julius Rosenbergs, and Quislings?
How about we boycott the traitors!
Most Americans favor their country over illegal aliens.
This is proof enough the media is a bunch of anti-American traitors.
Enforcing immigration law is a legitimate function of government.
People will begin to question whhat is wrong with racism.
Secret Squirrel (6a1582) — 4/28/2010 @ 11:15 ampolice excercise much discretion not dicrimination in every contact in the line of thier duty.your attitude can make the difference between a warning and a citation or even arrest.presenting forged id to a police officer is a crime usaully even if you are a citizen,many illegals have forged documents to get employment.they are not prosecuted for this usaully unless identity theft is involved.
clyde (8d24d5) — 4/28/2010 @ 11:31 ambaseball players???
Federal immigration law requires all legal, resident aliens, to carry their “papers” with them at ALL times.
Why would it be different for baseball players, and only in Arizona?
The ignorance on this matter is immense.
AD - RtR/OS! (ecaeda) — 4/28/2010 @ 11:53 am…11,000 Immigration Lawyers…
Well, there is a bright side to this boycott movement.
AD - RtR/OS! (ecaeda) — 4/28/2010 @ 11:54 amAZ will be spared the presence of 11,000 additional lawyers in their State.
If it was only that easy to keep lawyers at bay.
And it’s not like if you keep your papers in your gym back that you’re shot on sight. You can simply show them at your proceeding or before hand. Charges of trespassing would be dropped at that time.
I guess we can pretend there’s no discretion when a law actually goes against the social engineering of the left.
Dustin (b54cdc) — 4/28/2010 @ 11:55 amAll things that deny Teh Narrative are counter-revolutionary, and are a crime-against-the-state!
AD - RtR/OS! (ecaeda) — 4/28/2010 @ 12:01 pmAs a former resident of Az I think the law (when implemented) will make it much safer for the residents and much safer to travel through the state. Now if the Az police will give every vehicle with Ca plates a ticket (follow anyone a mile and you can give them a legal ticket) they can balance the budget.
Scrapiron (4e0dda) — 4/28/2010 @ 1:38 pmScrap…when I was living in San Diego, we used to say the same thing about AZ plates every summer – but you didn’t have to follow them that long to observe a violation.
AD - RtR/OS! (ecaeda) — 4/28/2010 @ 2:14 pmAP headline: Illegal immigrants plan to leave over Ariz. law
AMANDA LEE MYERS
From Associated Press
April 28, 2010 11:44 PM EDT
— It’s all good.
Icy Texan (d7204c) — 4/28/2010 @ 8:16 pm