Patterico's Pontifications

4/6/2010

Kind Words

Filed under: International,Obama — DRJ @ 5:43 pm



[Guest post by DRJ]

The President is unhappy with Afghan President Hamid Karzai:

“Administration officials said Tuesday that they will continue to “evaluate” remarks made by Karzai, and that the evaluation could result in Karzai’s May invitation to the White House being revoked.



President Barack Obama extended an invitation for Karzai to visit the White House on May 12, but that could be in jeopardy if Karzai continues to make “troubling and untruthful” comments.


Asked at the daily press briefing if the U.S. considers Karzai an ally, Gibbs said “Karzai is the democratically elected leader of Afghanistan.”

Pressed on the issue, Gibbs said that “the remarks he’s made I can’t imagine that anyone in this country found them anything other than troubling…when the Afghan leaders take steps to improve governance and root out corruption, then the president will say kind words.”

So Obama has no kind words for America’s allies even though he worked for months on a letter expressing a change in tone toward Iran and its leaders. What’s more, in his Inaugural Address, Obama promised “we will extend a hand if you are willing to unclench your fist.”

Time has shown what Obama meant by those kind words: Our enemies will always get a second chance but America’s allies should never cross Obama.

— DRJ

91 Responses to “Kind Words”

  1. According to <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/06/AR2010040600274.html"the Washington Post:

    Karzai gave a speech on Thursday accusing the West of perpetrating election fraud in Afghanistan, and he appeared to go one step further on Monday by singling out the United States as specifically to blame, drawing anger from the White House.

    At some point we have to consider the possibility that Karzai’s government isn’t an ally, and that it’s actually using (abusing?) us for its own ends and expecting us to foot the bill because we’re so afraid that their replacement would be worse that we’d do anything to appease them.

    Accusing us of perpetrating election fraud seems like it’s a fair indication that the Karzai government doesn’t consider us to be an ally.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  2. troubling and untruthful

    this complaint, from a regime foounded on dishonesty?
    it is to laugh…..

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  3. well, i can see where Karzai would see the Obama regime as a possible source of vote tampering….

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  4. This is an example of appalling ineptitude by the US State Department, if that is where this advice came from, or from Obama. Karzai has to face local rivals who will accuse him of being a US puppet. Ditto with Maliki in Iraq. The appropriate response is to call the local leader a patriot and, if necessary, chew him out in private. This group therapy model of diplomacy will end in our complete failure.

    These people will get us all killed.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  5. Karzai is a U.S. puppet. He is an oily, drug-dealing thug who is where he is because we put him there. Self-serving slime like him is the reason the Taliban became the best thing ever to have happened in Afghanistan.

    nk who thinks high school was a waste of time (db4a41)

  6. Your analysis is a touch simplistic here, DRJ, don’t you think?

    I agree with aphrael. I am not convinced the Karzai government can be called an ally.

    You may or may not know that Karzai threatened to join the Taliban, which two consecutive administrations have worked to show is an enemy of the U.S. This isn’t just garden-variety tension but a very serious statement that could eventually call into question whether the U.S. should continue to send troops to die for this effort.

    The administration must give itself room to possibly distance itself from Karzai if he follows through on his threat. What happens after that, I have no idea.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  7. What happens after that, I have no idea.

    A more perfect example of leftist foreign policy has never been typed.

    JD (76f87c)

  8. JD: And you have no idea, either. I’m just admitting it.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  9. Thank you for your momentary honesty, though predictably, you rise to defend Barcky, who has yet to demonstrate his ability to bring people to our side, or bring the world together, or strengthen our alliances with our allies, or have anything remotely approaching a robust foreign policy, or you get my point.

    JD (76f87c)

  10. So karzai criticizes the US, Obama doesn’t like, and people get mad at Obama? Do you guys think Karzai’s criticism’s have merit?

    imdw (017d51)

  11. I think you have no merit, imdw.

    JD (76f87c)

  12. JD: Not defending “Barcky.”

    I am simply pointing out that, this crisis precipitated not from an Obama hissy-fit, as DRJ implies, but by (what I hope is) a serious diplomatic blunder on the part of Karzai.

    And thanks for your laundry list of what you perceive as the president’s failures. I’m sure they’re based on objective analysis and not ODS.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  13. JD – speaking for myself, I’m not here to defend President Obama; I don’t know if his policy is wise or not. In particular, I’m not sure what the right thing to do is when you have an “ally” who appears to be playing you for a fool, pretending to be your friend while undermining your goals; so I can’t know if President Obama’s approach is the right one or not.

    But I would submit that since “pretending to be your friend while undermining your goals” is also a good description of the behavior of the governments of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia over the last score years, nobody in the foreign policy establishment of either party seems to have a good idea how to deal with governments which behave in that fashion.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  14. Show us then, demonstrably, Myron, where he has done those things. He has pissed on Great Britain, pissed on Israel. So far, it is better to be an enemy of the US than a traditional ally.

    aphrael – To the extent that I respect you, I agree that it is hard to deal with them. However, the outcomes are rather predictable.

    JD (76f87c)

  15. Wasn’t Obama trying to negotiate with the “moderate Taliban” not so long ago. Doesn’t the timetable of
    the Afghan surge, remind Karzai dangerously of the fate of other Afghans who trusted the west like
    Shah Massoud and going farther back Shaj Shuja. History has a way of rhyming, if one doesn’t pay
    attention, and we know where the previous show ended up, in Lower Manhattan and Arlington

    ian cormac (349188)

  16. JD: Are you unaware of Israel’s role in our recent tensions? The building of settlements during Joe Biden’s visit?

    Wouldn’t you in fact be calling Obama weak if he merely grin and bore provocative gestures?

    Really, can Obama do anything right in your mind, beyond resigning?

    Myron (6a93dd)

  17. That should be merely “grinned” ….

    Myron (6a93dd)

  18. “I think you have no merit, imdw.”

    Did you ever watch “pee wee’s big adventure”? Where he says “I know you are but what am I”? Or do you just have no idea what Karzai’s criticisms and threats to join the enemy are about?

    imdw (cd4b7a)

  19. ian: It was terrible what happened with Massoud, but Obama has made no secret of the timetable of U.S. involvement. Karzai knows exactly when the U.S. is expected to begin to withdraw. In other words, I don’t think the U.S. is the one dirty-dealing here.

    In fact, his specific complaint, as I understand it, is that he is tired of the U.S. “meddling,” which suggests to me he’d rather we leave sooner than later.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  20. It is a very delicate situation as aphrael points out. Karzai may only be a 33% ally, but in the view of the Foreign Policy Establishment (a.k.a. the “wise men in Washington” who seem to set policy no matter which party occupies the White House) maybe that is as good as we can expect. I am with Mike K though in that I don’t see the purpose of showing him up in public, unless it is to help Obama look like less of a wuss for once.

    JVW (08e86a)

  21. Something tells me that imdw is very familar with “Pee-Wee’s Big Adventure.”

    Eric Blair (ea0564)

  22. aphrael and Myron,

    I saw both reports. Please explain why Karzai’s years of assistance do nothing to excuse his rhetoric, but the U.S. continues to support Pakistan — a nation that harbored the Taliban and al Qaeda for years?

    My response is I’m more understanding about unfortunate rhetoric from my allies, especially if I need help from those allies. As we say in West Texas, don’t cut off your nose to spite your face.

    DRJ (daa62a)

  23. (a.k.a. the “wise men in Washington” who seem to set policy no matter which party occupies the White House)

    Ain’t that the truth. I guess the advantage is that it makes our foreign policy remarkably consistent, in spite of the political wrangling at home. The disadvantage: What if it’s the wrong policy?

    Myron (6a93dd)

  24. Myron:

    JD: Are you unaware of Israel’s role in our recent tensions? The building of settlements during Joe Biden’s visit?

    Are you aware that Jerusalem is not a settlement and thus not subject to restrictions on settlement building, and also that Netanyahu had no advance notice the Interior Ministry would approve the new housing units during Biden’s visit?

    DRJ (daa62a)

  25. “Something tells me that imdw is very familar with “Pee-Wee’s Big Adventure.””

    You mean something besides how awesome that movie is?

    imdw (241c75)

  26. DRJ: I’m curious as to how you know Karzai’s comments are just rhetoric?

    Myron (6a93dd)

  27. aphrael:

    But I would submit that since “pretending to be your friend while undermining your goals” is also a good description of the behavior of the governments of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia over the last score years, nobody in the foreign policy establishment of either party seems to have a good idea how to deal with governments which behave in that fashion.

    It’s called acting in one’s national interest and I submit that every nation acts this way, or should. Anyone who can’t handle that has no business being a leader.

    DRJ (daa62a)

  28. No. 24: So you’re saying that Israel’s actions were perfectly fine — and if properly understood, should have been fully acceptable to the U.S.,and thus Obama’s reaction was, what? Based on a misunderstanding? Just because?

    Are you aware that the U.K. and France also condemned the actions? They’re all just confused?

    Myron (6a93dd)

  29. “In fact, his specific complaint, as I understand it, is that he is tired of the U.S. “meddling,” which suggests to me he’d rather we leave sooner than later.”

    Myron – Take a step back. Obama makes a trip to Afghanistan to visit the troops and visit with Karzai. The stated purpose of the visit with Karzai is to read him the riot act over corruption and other lack of performance in his government. Essentially Obama humiliates Karzai on the world stage.

    I have no idea why Karzai is upset at Obama and his meddling, do you?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  30. Anyone who can’t handle that has no business being a leader.

    Well, DRJ, he is handling it. You just don’t like the handling.

    I submit that if he handled it another way, you probably wouldn’t care for that handling, either.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  31. Myron:

    DRJ: I’m curious as to how you know Karzai’s comments are just rhetoric?

    Because he said them but, as far as I can tell, he hasn’t ordered a military coup or taken other actions to undermine the trying-to-be-democratic Afghan government.

    Of course, it’s not good that there is so much corruption in Afghanistan but third world nations are often corrupt. Surely Obama doesn’t expect every nation’s politics to be as pure as Chicago’s?

    DRJ (daa62a)

  32. It has always been a proxy fight, ISI headquarters is where both the Taliban and AQ were cooked up, along with Saudi General Intelligence, the fact is their rogues often get scooped in our nets at Bagram and Gitmo. There isn’t that much pressure
    brought to bear on Zardari, Mr. 10%, which makes
    the whole high dudgeon about Karzai a little farcical

    ian cormac (349188)

  33. Myron:

    Well, DRJ, he is handling it. You just don’t like the handling.

    Alienating our allies emboldens our enemies. I’m against that.

    DRJ (daa62a)

  34. Similarly, it’s a shame that Obama’s weak posturing in Iraq has moved former allies like the Druse into Syria’s camp.

    DRJ (daa62a)

  35. daley: Karzai is corrupt and his government is under-performing. I don’t think I’ve heard a single analyst say otherwise.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  36. Surely Obama doesn’t expect every nation’s politics to be as pure as Chicago’s?

    DRJ: He can always hope for an ideal. 🙂

    Myron (6a93dd)

  37. So? Obama’s government is corrupt and his government is under-performing.

    DRJ (daa62a)

  38. Yeah, the POTUS has been great on foreign affairs. Good thing we don’t have that silly cowboy in office, huh?

    The sad part is that these people really believe this guy is doing a great job. Bowing and DVDs and insulting Prime Ministers and all.

    Blinded by the D.

    Eric Blair (ea0564)

  39. Alienating our allies emboldens our enemies. I’m against that.

    Me too.

    Myron (6a93dd)

  40. Wow, DRJ! That was truly an awesome reply! Of course, the Loyal Trollosition will no doubt become rude in reply, since you were both witty and correct.

    Eric Blair (ea0564)

  41. Myron:

    The building of settlements during Joe Biden’s visit?

    That’s an interesting interpretation.

    To the rest:

    Although I think Karzai’s comment were, what’s the word? Impolitic, maybe?

    Considering he doesn’t really govern a nation and depends on the U.S. for his position, I think we can surmise a few scenarios for his statement:

    1. He’s trying to force the current administration to pay more attention to a deteriorating situation.

    2. He’s reading the political winds in the U.S. and is trying for an accommodation within his limited sphere of influence for maintaining some semblance of government.

    3. Really, really bad things are about to happen close by and he’s cutting his losses to remain a voice in the region.

    4. Really, really bad things are about to happen to him and he’s trying to save his neck.

    5. He’s stupid.

    6. All of the above.

    Ag80 (f67beb)

  42. Myron- I am going to respond to the drivel in a manner commensurate with the deep thinking behind what you typed.

    ZOMFG!!!!!! Apartments are a threat to our national security !!!!

    JD (51af68)

  43. “daley: Karzai is corrupt and his government is under-performing. I don’t think I’ve heard a single analyst say otherwise.”

    Myron – I didn’t contend otherwise. Publicly humiliating your allies is not the best way to accomplish your goals in my opinion. Then again, Obama has never managed anything in his life so he probably never learned lessons like that.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  44. “Are you unaware of Israel’s role in our recent tensions? The building of settlements during Joe Biden’s visit?

    Wouldn’t you in fact be calling Obama weak if he merely grin and bore provocative gestures?”

    So, let’s recap… the Israelis build houses in already established neighborhoods in Jerusalem… the Obama administration picks a fight over an issue that in the past has never risen to the level of a nasty, public confrontation between America and Israel, let alone resulted in America condemning the action… the Palestinians have hit the streets and other Arab nations are demanding that Obama order further concessions from the Israelis.

    Is this the 1)”path to peace”, or has Obama 2)amateurishly inflamed the situation and shown that he’s an unpredictable flake of an ally?

    I submit it’s number 2.

    GeneralMalaise (139767)

  45. So? Obama’s government is corrupt and his government is under-performing.

    DRJ: I know you couldn’t resist the clever retort. But you’re aware you sound just like the people on the left who hated Bush. Identical. Next thing you know, you’ll be saying he planned the stock market crash.

    Or maybe he did??

    Myron (6a93dd)

  46. “So? Obama’s government is corrupt and his government is under-performing.”

    DRJ – So true. Well played.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  47. “But you’re aware you sound just like the people on the left who hated Bush.”

    Myron – The people on the left who hated Bush are irrational and fabricated lies and stories to support their narratives. With Obama, it is perfectly rational to oppose the man’s policies and there is no need for fabrication or embellishment.

    BTW, Karl wrote a piece on Kos polling that was tailor made for your delectation.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  48. Shorter Myron:

    Look a squirrel.

    Ag80 (f67beb)

  49. Myron, once again, you are caught making up stuff to defend Obama. Who does that make you “identical” to?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  50. Karzai sounds like one of those whiney American leftists who kept saying that George Bush had been selected by the US Supreme Court–of course, conveniently sidestepping the role of Florida’s Supreme Court—or that they’d move to Canada or Europe if Bush won re-election.

    If the Afghan president is sleazy, easily corrupted and into situational ethics, he and Obama aren’t exactly too dissimilar. They should hold hands and walk off into the sunset.

    Mark (411533)

  51. Myron – Is Karzai any more corrupt than that Chavista thug Obama tried to reinstall as the President of Honduras after he was legally ousted according to the country’s Constitution? How did that turn out? Why is Obama still holding a grudge?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  52. 36.Surely Obama doesn’t expect every nation’s politics to be as pure as Chicago’s?

    DRJ: He can always hope for an ideal. 🙂

    Comment by Myron — 4/6/2010 @ 7:55 pm

    Was that supposed to be funny?

    MD in Philly (59a3ad)

  53. “So? Obama’s government is corrupt and his government is under-performing.”

    Best line yet. Of course, when it is Obama’s government that is corrupt and under-performing it is prima facie racist to point that out. If not racist, you will at least be accused of being “angry” and “scary.”

    JVW (08e86a)

  54. Myron… isn’t all that water-carrying hard on your knees? Do you still wear the Clinton-era kneepads?

    GeneralMalaise (139767)

  55. I guess lecturing your partners in public isn’t always appreciated.

    Maybe when Karzai shows up we should make him sit in the corner with a dunce cap during the joint press conference. Or maybe Hillary could cane him on TV. Maybe that would straighten him out!

    Kevin Murphy (5ae73e)

  56. “Myron – I didn’t contend otherwise. Publicly humiliating your allies is not the best way to accomplish your goals in my opinion”

    So is this a criticism of Karzai or of Obama?

    imdw (c5516c)

  57. I mean when you put the last member of the team that
    deposed Diem, (Holbrooke) and that turned out so well, what is one to think.

    ian cormac (349188)

  58. Re: Karzai…
    In the words of FDR: He might be an SOB, but he’s OUR SOB!

    Karzai has to worry about something in the Afghan political scene that generally doesn’t trouble American Presidents:
    The constant potential of assassination by your rivals.

    This rhetoric is very similar to the underground mumblings/grumblings that infected DC in 1962-63, that led directly to the coup in Saigon (which was planned in the office of Amb.Henry Cabot Lodge with the direct OK of the Oval Office), the deaths of the Diems, and 12 years of instability and a lost war.

    We are being led by the Best & Brightest of Fools – still!

    AD - RtR/OS! (cf9e75)

  59. Myron:

    DRJ: I know you couldn’t resist the clever retort. But you’re aware you sound just like the people on the left who hated Bush. Identical. Next thing you know, you’ll be saying he planned the stock market crash.

    It wasn’t clever but it was easy. As for Bush, the leftist conventional wisdom is that he and his Administration were incompetents. I don’t concede that, just as you don’t concede that Obama is corrupt, but I’d take an incompetent government over a corrupt one any day. Given Obama’s comments about Karzai, apparently he agrees. Too bad he doesn’t apply the same standard to his own government.

    In other words, maybe Obama should stop criticizing our allies until he’s walked a mile in their shoes.

    DRJ (daa62a)

  60. The President has sent a very clear signal to the Middle East:

    Don’t expect the U.S. to do anything in the near future to protect Israel.

    I won’t argue the pros or cons of that signal or whether it was intentional or not, but it is already having an effect. Look at the price of oil and look at the response from one of the weakest links in the chain: Karzai.

    I have a sinking feeling big things are coming and those things — and not health care — will decide the greatness of President Obama.

    Ag80 (f67beb)

  61. As I said on another thread (the change in the use of nukes):

    From the Levant, to the Plains of Persia, they shall sow fields of mushrooms, and reap Gardens of Stone.

    AD - RtR/OS! (cf9e75)

  62. imdw:

    So is this a criticism of Karzai or of Obama?

    Didn’t Obama start it?

    DRJ (daa62a)

  63. Like I said, AD that feeling you have is not accidental. Oil is probably spiking because one, the dollar is going the way of the renimbi, two
    people can figure out that we aren’t getting any
    fresh supply anytime soon, and the same pattern of dominoes now recurring in Iraq

    ian cormac (349188)

  64. “So is this a criticism of Karzai or of Obama?”

    imdw – If you took a moment to think, you would realize that is a criticism of Obama’s handling of the situation. He is inexperienced and inept.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  65. “Didn’t Obama start it?”

    The story you quoted has remarks by Karzai coming first:

    ““Administration officials said Tuesday that they will continue to “evaluate” remarks made by Karzai, and that the evaluation could result in Karzai’s May invitation to the White House being revoked.

”

    Although is this really a matter of ‘who started it?’

    “Don’t expect the U.S. to do anything in the near future to protect Israel.”

    Other than sending in billions in aid.

    imdw (bad5e8)

  66. “imdw – If you took a moment to think, you would realize that is a criticism of Obama’s handling of the situation. He is inexperienced and inept.”

    So how about you, do you think Karzai’s critiques have any merit?

    imdw (bad5e8)

  67. imdw:

    “Didn’t Obama start it?”

    The story you quoted has remarks by Karzai coming first

    Karzai was responding to Obama’s firmer approach and rhetoric delivered in his visit to Afghanistan last week, something I know you are aware of because you commented on the post where it was discussed it.

    DRJ (daa62a)

  68. “do you think Karzai’s critiques have any merit?”

    imdw – Which ones?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  69. imdw:

    Although is this really a matter of ‘who started it?’

    It’s a question of why Obama chooses to handle in public some problems he has with allies. I think he does it to look principled and tough, but it’s really no different than Bush’s “Mission Accomplished” banner. Like his recent nuclear disarmament policy change, it limits his options and creates hurdles to reaching solutions that were already difficult to resolve.

    DRJ (daa62a)

  70. “imdw – Which ones?”

    The ones that this spat is about. You haven’t been following? They’re in the first comment.

    “It’s a question of why Obama chooses to handle in public some problems he has with allies. ”

    It looks like it was Karzai who chose to handle the problem he has with his ally in public. When asked about Karzai’s critiques, do you want obama to apologize for america or stand up for it?

    imdw (cd4b7a)

  71. Obama was the first to throw stones by publicly criticizing Karzai and his government for corruption. How does that help America’s interests when we need Karzai’s help to fight the war in Afghanistan?

    DRJ (daa62a)

  72. Other than sending in billions in aid.

    As we send billions of aid to others in the Middle East.

    Being oblique is such fun. Why don’t we do it more often?

    I mean, we both do it. Because we’re all clever and all. I’ll be the first to admit it.

    So, how about it, do you think Karzai’s critiques have any merit?

    Ag80 (f67beb)

  73. “Obama was the first to throw stones by publicly criticizing Karzai and his government for corruption. ”

    Obama met privately with Karzai. Karzai’s spokes people said relations were strong, aides said the meeting was good. Then Karzai gave a “harsh anti-Western speech.” How should Obama react to that speech?

    imdw (2dbe25)

  74. Personally, I loved watching DRJ hoist imdw by, well, his own petard.

    And imdw? That means using your own words against you.

    Outmatched and outgunned. Say goodnight, Pee-wee.

    Eric Blair (a1ad9d)

  75. I’m not convinced that any of the governments I mentioned (Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia) are actually working in the national interest of those countries. But assuming for a moment that they are –

    their national interests diverge from ours. that’s only natural. and yet it seems to me that in all three cases, the government is pretending to work with us, making a great show of doing something while in fact doing as close to nothing as they can, while ignoring our requests for process reform that we think is in their interest (and makes our relationship to them more palatable), and using the aid we give them for their own purposes. Which is to say: all three of these governments seem to be getting more out of their relationship with us than we are out of our relationship with them.

    The only sense in which they can be said to be allies is that they’re probably preferable to the alternatives.

    So: do we cut them off and basically call their bluff? Or do we keep on doing what we’re doing knowing that we’re getting very little out of it and that we’re shoring up some really despicable governments in exchange for getting very little out of it? Or do we find some way to put pressure on them to hold up their end of the bargain better?

    aphrael (73ebe9)

  76. it limits his options and creates hurdles to reaching solutions that were already difficult to resolve.

    That’s a legitimate criticism, I think.

    What isn’t clear to me, though, is whether the converse is true: would not showing Karzai that there are costs to intransigence not also limit options and create hurdles? What’s the possibility for improvement in the relationship if Karzai assumes that we’re just patsies who can be bought off with empty words?

    aphrael (73ebe9)

  77. aphrael said:

    What isn’t clear to me, though, is whether the converse is true: would not showing Karzai that there are costs to intransigence not also limit options and create hurdles? What’s the possibility for improvement in the relationship if Karzai assumes that we’re just patsies who can be bought off with empty words?

    You could ask those questions to Sadat or Begin. But, they’re dead. One of those guys could answer your question. The other died of natural causes.

    Ag80 (f67beb)

  78. “do you think Karzai’s critiques have any merit?”

    Yes. How about you?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  79. imdw,

    On March 28 during his surprise visit to Afghanistan, Obama’s public statement spoke of Karzai’s hospitality and Afghanistan’s assistance to American troops. However, on the trip to Afghanistan, Obama’s national security advisers specifically briefed the media on government corruption and Karzai’s ties to drug lords. It was described by the media as Obama’s plan to talk tough to Karzai.

    I have no problem with tough talk but by trying to make nice with Karzai in public while trashing him through official briefings, it seems like the Obama Administration wanted to have its Afghan cake and to eat it, too. Karzai’s response suggests he can play the same game.

    DRJ (daa62a)

  80. aphrael:

    What isn’t clear to me, though, is whether the converse is true: would not showing Karzai that there are costs to intransigence not also limit options and create hurdles? What’s the possibility for improvement in the relationship if Karzai assumes that we’re just patsies who can be bought off with empty words?

    It seems to me that America’s approach to that region is a combination of counterinsurgency strategies and American assistance aka “trying to buy people off.” But what’s wrong with that? It’s preferable to the alternatives and sometimes it works.

    In addition, America has numerous economic and other ways it can encourage certain behavior behind the scenes, without having to trash allies in public. Nevertheless, I support speaking bluntly about America’s goals — freedom, working against corruption, democracy, etc. What I object to is publicly criticizing leaders we need when the message could be transmitted privately … and kept private.

    DRJ (daa62a)

  81. DRJ – Obama also got caught saying one thing in public and another in private about Iraqi leaders. It seems to be a habit of his.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  82. imdw – Isn’t Afghanistan the good war to your ilk?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  83. “…Karzai’s response suggests he can play the same game….”

    And probably better than this supposedly cool, hip, and experienced politician. This guy is uberurkel a lot of the time.

    Eric Blair (5cf38e)

  84. daley – Afghanistan was the just and legal war.

    JD (76f87c)

  85. “The details of President Barack Obama’s weekend conversation with Afghan President Hamid Karzai remain shrouded in secrecy, but it’s unlikely that Obama would spend 26 hours aboard Air Force One flying to and from Kabul just to pat Karzai on the back. Not only is the White House frustrated over the rampant corruption in Karzai’s government, whose ability to earn the support of its own people is the linchpin of the U.S. strategy in Afghanistan, it is also increasingly concerned over the Afghan leader’s growing coziness with Iran………….

    But earlier, aboard Air Force One, National Security Adviser James Jones gave a grittier briefing to reporters, telling them that Obama wanted Karzai to “understand that in his second term, there are certain things that have not been paid attention to, almost since Day One.” To win the elections, marred by fraud, Karzai had to make deals with several unsavory warlords, who are once again represented in his Cabinet. Opposition figures say that these warlords are running their government departments like personal cash machines. Rather than dining alone on rice and kebabs with Karzai at the palace, Obama insisted on being joined by Afghan Cabinet ministers — including a few technocrats trusted by the U.S. but not by Karzai — to drive home the anticorruption message…………………..

    Karzai had enjoyed cordial relations with former President George W. Bush, but Obama’s team of Afghan advisers came in believing that the President, who showed little skill or enthusiasm for reining in the warlords and corrupt technocrats, was part of the problem rather than the solution. Karzai’s mistrust of Washington grew during last fall’s presidential campaign, when he became convinced — with good reason — that U.S. State Department officials were mounting a last-minute charge to champion other candidates…………………………..

    Palace insiders say that before Obama’s surprise visit, Afghan-U.S. relations had strained to the point where Karzai would speak to only three Americans: Ambassador Karl Eikenberry; General Stanley McChrystal, commander of American and NATO forces in Afghanistan; and the unnamed CIA station chief. Of those three, Karzai is said to trust only the CIA chief, who reportedly led the special-forces team that protected Karzai on his first forays into southern Afghanistan to turn the Pashtun tribes against Taliban rule. Karzai is said to be leery of Eikenberry, ever since the media leaked the contents of cables in which the ambassador frankly cataloged what he considered to be Karzai’s many failings. Palace aides complain that McChrystal chooses to work around Karzai, whenever possible, dealing directly with governors and provincial officials…………..”

    From that bastion of wingnuttery:

    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1976173,00.html

    daleyrocks (718861)

  86. JD – It’s the opium war, right? That’s why we invaded wasn’t it, to control the world drug trade?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  87. telling them that Obama wanted Karzai to “understand that in his second term

    That is one hell of an assumption by Teh One, no?

    JD (76f87c)

  88. aphrael:

    their national interests diverge from ours. that’s only natural. and yet it seems to me that in all three cases, the government is pretending to work with us, making a great show of doing something while in fact doing as close to nothing as they can, while ignoring our requests for process reform that we think is in their interest (and makes our relationship to them more palatable), and using the aid we give them for their own purposes.

    But isn’t this true of all nations? Did it help Iraqis (especially the Kurds) when we stopped Desert Storm and left Saddam in power? Did it help the North Koreans when we accepted a demilitarized zone in Korea, or the East Berliners when we settled for a stalemate in Berlin? Nations are rarely able to do more than what their interests require. That America often does more is something special and, I think, to be applauded.

    As for how to spread democracy, I think that takes fertile ground and seeds, e.g., security and incentives. We did it in Europe and Japan. We’re doing it in Iraq. Sometimes they don’t develop the way we want but I hope we keep trying since democracies promote healthier, safer, and more stable societies.

    DRJ (daa62a)

  89. JD – Karzai’s second term, not Obama’s. I gulped when I first read it too.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  90. “I have no problem with tough talk but by trying to make nice with Karzai in public while trashing him through official briefings, it seems like the Obama Administration wanted to have its Afghan cake and to eat it, too. Karzai’s response suggests he can play the same game.”

    I see. You prefer that the public be kept more in the dark as to the content of our relations with Karzai. I can understand that. So now, how do you think we should react to Karzai’s speech? Should the administration apologize for america, or stand up for it?

    “As we send billions of aid to others in the Middle East.”

    And I wouldn’t call that ‘not doing anything.’

    “And imdw? That means using your own words against you. ”

    You mean what I quoted from DRJ’s post?

    “Yes. How about you?”

    I don’t know enough to tell whether the US perpetrated election fraud in Afghanistan. But if you looked into it, and are convinced, then I’ll trust your judgment. I don’t think this will be the first time we’ve been involved in shenanigans like this.

    imdw (3bf1a8)

  91. Carville ran the opposition candidate, Abdallah, we send 3 billion to Egypt and they give us Sheik Rahman and Mohammed Atta, not a good trade. The left
    made a big deal about the anti drug package given to the Taliban in the spring of 2001; made in part because of the drug rumors attributed to Massoud,
    so we’ve seen this story before

    [note: released from moderation. –Stashiu]

    ian cormac (349188)


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