Patterico's Pontifications

3/28/2010

Dan Collins: “Sexual Abuse is Not a Catholic Franchise”

Filed under: Education,Law,Religion — DRJ @ 3:02 pm

[Guest post by DRJ]

An excerpt from an excellent post by Dan Collins at POWIP:

“[T]he headlines in the MSM are all about Holy Week opening amidst charges of sex abuse cover-ups that may even touch on the Pope himself. Benedict has dismissed the charges, and between the NYT and the Pope, on a matter of truthfulness, please forgive me if I go with the Pope. Religion hater Christopher Hitchens has called for the US to cut off political relations with the Vatican, and yesterday True/Slant writer Matt Taibbi stated that the Catholic Church was a criminal enterprise and ought to be sued under RICO.

Well, that’s an interesting theory. But are public schools a criminal enterprise, as well? Because I believe that despite all the talk about celibacy being the root of the trouble for the Catholic Church, one would find that incidences of abuse and cover-up are at least as widespread among public schools. I realize that this is just a hunch, but it demonstrates the confirmation bias at play that none of the MSM is interested in performing the actual research that would be necessary either to confirm or deny the supposition.”

Read the rest and while you’re there, wish Dan a Happy Birthday.

– DRJ

40 Responses to “Dan Collins: “Sexual Abuse is Not a Catholic Franchise””

  1. “sex abuse cover-ups that may even touch on the Pope himself.”

    Pun intended?

    snips (6a0094)

  2. His argument is weak.

    A better argument would be that the Catholic church is singled out because it has a centralized leadership structure. I’d like to know how the rates of abuse compare first with other religious organizations, that seems like a more apples to apples comparison. But it’s a lot easier to work up rage over the ‘cover up’ when the people in charge are so visible.

    His claim about public schools might be true. But he offers no evidence. Just an unsupported accusation.
    As for credibility about child abuse, the catholic church lost that a while ago.

    Time123 (b7cad2)

  3. That whole criminal enterprise/RICO crap has been pushed by multiple douchenozzles from true slant.

    JD (241e9b)

  4. “A better argument would be that the Catholic church is singled out because it has a centralized leadership structure. I’d like to know how the rates of abuse compare first with other religious organizations, that seems like a more apples to apples comparison.”

    But the thing is the centralized leadership structure is worldwide; was moving people around; and issuing orders on how to handle this. If there was no structure, there would still be abuse, but there wouldn’t be those things that the structure did.

    imdw (bb4edc)

  5. #2 His claim about public schools might be true. But he offers no evidence. Just an unsupported accusation.

    Except that we do hear about public school teachers doing this sort of thing on a fairly regular basis–it just isn’t (rightly or wrongly) being pressed by the MSM as evidence of a systemic problem. We also know that teacher’s unions are rather notorious for defending their members’ misconduct, and (sadly) there’s no particular reason to think that child abuse would be exempt from that behavior. This isn’t to defend the Catholic Church on this subject–they need to crack down on it with unforgiving vigor–but if equal standards of review and access were applied to the public schools, it’s not unreasonable to think that the comparison might not be flattering to public schools.

    M. Scott Eiland (c552ec)

  6. “But the thing is the centralized leadership structure is worldwide”

    imdw – If it was not centralized, it would be like a bunch of independent school districts. GET IT?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  7. “imdw – If it was not centralized, it would be like a bunch of independent school districts. GET IT?”

    Yes. like I said: “If there was no structure, there would still be abuse, but there wouldn’t be those things that the structure did.”

    In your example there wouldn’t be a centralized authority moving abusers from independent district to independent district, or issuing orders to those districts on how to act. The problem with the authority isn’t that abuse happened. It’s their reaction.

    imdw (c5488f)

  8. הטרול ממשיך להפיץ את השמחה שלו. אני תוהה מדוע?

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  9. Isn’t your question mark on the wrong end?

    imdw (1af0fd)

  10. You mean like the reaction of Obama Administration figures and their MSM sycophants?

    John Hitchcock (968ba3)

  11. Did you read it, imdw? It’s for you, since you are so very pro-Jewish.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  12. And I loved you actually writing “…the wrong end.”

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  13. The Catholic Church should rename itself something like “GLBT R Us” or “GLBT Spiritual Services” and a lot of liberals will step back and give it more slack.

    Sarcasm aside, the inability of any hierarchy or organization to be truly bothered by molestation of children is pathetic. Some of that probably is because there is too much excuse-making for and rationalization of same-sex behavior among the priesthood.

    Studies have shown a higher rate of pedophilia among male homosexuals in general, and if the Catholic church tends to attract gays to the peculiar nature of its priesthood, the connection between one and the other isn’t sheer coincidence.

    Mark (411533)

  14. that’s stupid Mark and all the good what Catholic priests do is how much good? A lot of good I think.

    The world is better for having Catholic priests in it.

    Next question.

    happyfeet (71f6cb)

  15. Isn’t your question mark on the wrong end?

    Does that mean that you’re finally going to answer my question, or am I going to have to chase you around like I have to do with Moron? One more time – what are the definitions of the following words?

    Big Macher

    Schnoor

    Vershnay

    Nishkit

    Come now, don’t be shy.

    Dmac (21311c)

  16. The world is better for having Catholic priests in it.

    But not if they’re becoming like the increasingly liberal and, oddly enough, even semi-seculiarized Protestant denominations.

    Leftist sentiment over the past several decades has dumbed down schools, universities, the media, the entertainment industry, and — irony of ironies (because a large percentage of liberals tend to be secular) — even religion.

    I know some of Pope Benedict’s most vocal critics originate from that very group devoted to cheapening socio-cultural standards. The irony is, if anything, with the continuing push to accept the idea that same-sex marriages and homosexuality are no big deal, the Catholic church is placed in a no-win situation. They’ll be made to look like the heavy if they ramp up anti-gay rhetoric, but they’ll also look like enablers if they start accepting some of the squishy “live and let live” attitudes of today’s leftwing.

    It’s like the Boy Scouts of America. IOW, they face potential lawsuits (and ambulance chasers) coming and going. Either because they disallow gays from being Scout Masters — and therefore are made to feel guilty by phony do-gooders in city and state governments — or because they don’t somehow screen out a gay Scout Master who later is found to be a pedophile and incurs the wrath of a kid’s parents.

    BTW, the only reason the Boy Scouts are still allowed to have bylaws that don’t permit gays to be Scout Masters is because of 1 (one) vote on the Supreme Court several years ago. If that 1 (one) justice had instead ruled with the minority, a gay dude — even an openly vocal and activist one — would now have to be accepted into the upper ranks of the Boy Scouts.

    Mark (411533)

  17. C’mon, Dmac. You know what this is all about.

    What bugs me, as always, is the complete lack of historical knowledge—too much Howard Zinn style information. Basically, anything involved with Western Civ must suck. Thus, Israel is all bad, but the Palestinian nutjobs just need understanding.

    But this guy? He is just trolling.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  18. And as for your quizzing, he is googling like crazy.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  19. Thanks, DRJ, for the link.

    My argument is that it is bias that prevents the studies being done, and then reported on. I am content to honor the studies, provided the methodologies are sound. Consider my hunch or supposition a hypothesis. If it bothers you, that may be because you’re too invested in your biases.

    Am I trying to justify sexual abuse in the Church? I certainly hope not. For one thing, I think that priests should not be ordained until they’ve been out and about in the world. I don’t think teens should be going to seminary. I feel awful about anyone who has suffered abuse. I also feel that there are a lot of people who have agendas that they feel are best served by demonizing the Church. I want to make them examine the issue in statistical context. And if they’re not willing to do that, they don’t really care about sexual abuse of kids per se, do they?

    Dan Collins (6e9303)

  20. If you disagree with Dan, you’re a racist, homophobic, Christianist, progressive.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  21. “BTW, the only reason the Boy Scouts are still allowed to have bylaws that don’t permit gays to be Scout Masters is because of 1 (one) vote on the Supreme Court several years ago.”

    Mark – As an FYI, there is no place on an application to be an adult leader in the Boy Scouts which asks the applicant to state their sexual preference.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  22. I certainly dont condone the abuse. A little perspective – virtually all individuals gravitate to professions that the individual enjoys. Pedifiles are no different, they comprise less than .01% of the general population. It has been reported that the catholic church has approx 4.5 to 5.0% pedofiles. The baptist/methodist churches reportedly 4.0 to 4.5%. Similar percentages in professions that have high access to children.
    The catholic church’s problem is a) the organizational structure b)big target and c)the church didnt kick the bad apples out.

    joe (93323e)

  23. joe – What are the comparable stats for Islam?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  24. And as for your quizzing, he is googling like crazy.

    No doubt – but it’s already way too late to come up with anything to save himself from complete scorn and defenestration, it’s been over four hours at this point. From now on, every time he poses as some kind of uber Jew he’ll get this back in spades.

    Dmac (21311c)

  25. Daley rocks – my source for the stats i cited are from memory based on when the scandal hit the dallas diocese. That scandal came to light in the early 90′s. At the time, there was no mention of the comparable stats.

    joe (93323e)

  26. there is no place on an application to be an adult leader in the Boy Scouts which asks the applicant to state their sexual preference

    It’s merely in their bylaws, which shows just how less than strict the Boy Scouts already are. But does that count for anything with the left? Hell, no. If it were up to them, the application form would have to be changed to “this organization does not discriminate based on sexuality, sexual identity and transgender medical procedures.”

    BTW, the guy who sued them was into publicly displaying a “Gay Pride” agenda. Hardly a closet case who had been outed by nosy, mean, inhospitable rightwingers.

    Even more sickening, if that Scout leader had been molesting troop members, a lot of liberals (including in the Supreme Court) would have no problem with the idea of parents lashing back at the Boy Scouts of America (ie, the big, heartless organization in general, but not the sad, dejected, misunderstood homosexual molester) with shouts of “we’re gonna sue, sue, sue!” Merely a variation of the way so many ass-backwards liberals dealt with a case like Roman Polanski and the young girl he raped in the 1970s.

    Mark (411533)

  27. “From now on, every time he poses as some kind of uber Jew he’ll get this back in spades.”

    Cuban bob talked of ‘confession.’ Now you give me ‘uber jew.’ Of course, after the trope of ‘self-hating jew.’ Too much guys. Too much.

    imdw (2d0308)

  28. “It’s merely in their bylaws”

    Mark – I don’t believe the Girl Scouts allow male leaders, but somebody can correct me on that. What’s up with that?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  29. “Now you give me ‘uber jew.’”

    Would you prefer libtard goy? Please make up your mind.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  30. Too much.

    You’re too much of a lying jackass to put up with. Why don’t you just leave.

    Really. And don’t bother to come back, because you have nothing of any value to add.

    At all.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  31. I don’t believe the Girl Scouts allow male leaders, but somebody can correct me on that.

    That makes me realize just how even more ridiculous and idiotic — and ass-backwards — the liberals are on the Supreme Court (and elsewhere). I bet even they’d resist a lawsuit from a male claiming illegal discrimination because he had been prevented from becoming a Troop leader in the Girl Scouts of America.

    But if a person’s homosexuality is to be protected, shouldn’t that apply double to a person’s gender? After all, a male can’t easily become a female, and visa versa, but a gay dude can have social-sexual relationships with women (and based on history and stats, a lot of them do).

    Mark (411533)

  32. Mark – Exactly. It’s all about recognition.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  33. If you go to my most recent post, Bad Popes, at http://skellmeyer.blogspot.com/2010/03/bad-popes.html, I’ve got the data you’re looking for.

    Suffice it to say that the rate of abuse in the public schools, according to the Dept. of Ed’s own commissioned study, is at least 400x higher than that in the Catholic Church.

    4.5 million in the schools versus 11000 in the Church.

    That 4.5 million abuse cases estimated for the school study was over the course of one decade, versus 11000 confirmed cases on the Church over five decades.

    Steve Kellmeyer (ced793)

  34. “That 4.5 million abuse cases estimated for the school study was over the course of one decade, versus 11000 confirmed cases on the Church over five decades.”

    You’re comparing “estimated” with “confirmed” ?

    imdw (c376e0)

  35. “You’re comparing “estimated” with “confirmed” ?”

    imdw – You’re engaging in contempt before investigation, as usual? What a surprise!

    daleyrocks (718861)

  36. Imadimwit blathered

    In your example there wouldn’t be a centralized authority moving abusers from independent district to independent district, or issuing orders to those districts on how to act. The problem with the authority isn’t that abuse happened. It’s their reaction.

    Comment by imdw — 3/28/2010 @ 4:37 pm

    And I asked

    #

    You mean like the reaction of Obama Administration figures and their MSM sycophants?

    Comment by John Hitchcock — 3/28/2010 @ 5:09 pm

    But of course imadimwit went right on by.

    John Hitchcock (968ba3)

  37. H – A – P – P – Y

    B – I – R – T – H – D – A – Y,

    D – A – N ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

    ………………………… from a fan.

    It’ s been too long. I want to stop in read what you’re up to.

    Vermont Neighbor (0e568c)

  38. [bleep] infiltrate the Catholic Church and the church, not the [bleep] get the blame. In face I doubt I can even mention the [bleep] and their campaign for [bleep]. If they do this in secret in the church, what will they do in open, when they no longer fear social condemnation for their [bleep]

    “4.5 million abuse cases estimated”

    I’m sure is estimate is as good as the statistics on discrimination, hate crime, and rape. And it, too, should be the basis of a decades-long public policy.

    tehag (fed264)

  39. “You mean like the reaction of Obama Administration figures and their MSM sycophants?”

    An administration certainly has a centralized authority. So does an corporation, whether it be a media one or otherwise. What’s so difficult here

    “imdw – You’re engaging in contempt before investigation, as usual? What a surprise!”

    And then I clicked on the link and saw dude was comparing RAW numbers. Not rates as he claimed.

    imdw (017d51)

  40. IMDW,

    in case you missed the last millennium of Catholic history, there is not a centralized authority which can say “hey that priest is having sex with children, get rid of him”. Unless a priest has sex during a mass, or preaches a sermon about how there is a divine command to have sex with children or something, the central authority cannot step in. The power to discipline priests (for things like having sex with children) stops at the level of the bishops, no one in the Church above a bishop can tell a bishop to discipline a priest – they can only ask, recommend & offer guidance to the bishops on what to do. Mind you if it were a theological issue then the hierarchy could step in, but unless priests start teaching theology then the hierarchy is confined to using persuasion instead of force.

    max (383bf5)


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