Torture and Mullah Barador
[Guest post by DRJ]
So, Mullah Barador is being tortured now?
It’s okay. President Obama’s ban on torture doesn’t apply to rendition programs or to CIA detention “facilities used only to hold people on a short-term, transitory basis.”
Glenn Greenwald and Andrew Sullivan wonder what will stop future Presidents from re-authorizing waterboarding and similar Bush-era interrogation techniques. The answer, of course, is that effectively Obama already has.
— DRJ
Not only did Obama campaign as someone that he wasn’t, but every single one of his campaign promises have been broken. It is hilarious.
We see here that absolutely none of the criticisms of Bush’s policies made by Democrats was serious. None.
SPQR (26be8b) — 2/16/2010 @ 5:29 pmwell, they were criticizing him for serious political gain, but yeah, you have a point.
lying, anti-American scumbags, the lot of them, no matter how much they protest otherwise.
redc1c4 (fb8750) — 2/16/2010 @ 6:03 pmI swear to crying out loud. They better not give him a fat lip or there’ll be hell to pay!
PatriotRider (1729de) — 2/16/2010 @ 6:10 pmBy letting the Pakistanis do the dirty
work, Obama again votes present.
What an amoral piece of shit Obama is.
Jack (e383ed) — 2/16/2010 @ 6:14 pmSPQR said exactly what I was thinking. It clearly demonstrates how the leftists put politics ahead of national defense, and how fundamentally unserious their rending of garments and gnashing of teeth was.
JD (8ce84a) — 2/16/2010 @ 6:18 pmIn other words, it seems that Senator Obama’s condemnations of President Bush and his conduct of the war against the Islamists was just politics. Now that he’s President, and has the actual responsibility for conducting the war and keeping us safe, why yet another of President Bush’s methods has now become acceptable.
The Dana who appreciates the fact that George Bush was the greatest president of the 21st century (474dfc) — 2/16/2010 @ 6:24 pmWhat?? The Leftists are not about Principles?
I’m shocked.
Not.
Pons Asinorum (b14377) — 2/16/2010 @ 6:39 pmIt always come down to the results regarding the torture question, specifically involving waterboarding. Does it work often? Yes…yes it does. Next question.
Dmac (799abd) — 2/16/2010 @ 7:00 pmWe see just how important their “principles” are, do we not Dana?
SPQR (26be8b) — 2/16/2010 @ 7:29 pmI want to know if they Mirandized the guy and if not, why not.
daleyrocks (718861) — 2/16/2010 @ 8:31 pmI love the fact about “if we mirandized the guy” has any bearing as to what is done to them.
Our Republican has allowed the lawyers free reign to impose stupidity.
As Andrew Jackson said “then let the Supreme Court do it.” And the lawyers scurried like rats b/c they could not.
So ….. if Mullah Douchebag or Abdulmutallabdirtbag are being tortured or having their miranda rights respected, frankly my dear I don’t give a damn.
HeavenSent (c3c032) — 2/17/2010 @ 3:42 am… peel the scrotum off their bodies and stuff their rectum with their penis, boil them in oil, scalp them — it is cathartic and purifying. Allah will welcome them with 1,927 Ricky Bobby Certified Virgins.
HeavenSent (c3c032) — 2/17/2010 @ 3:45 amThe Senate and People of Rome wrote:
The difference is responsibility: President Obama probably doesn’t like how the war has to be conducted, doesn’t like having to fight the war at all, but now that he has the responsibility of defending the American people, what he’d like to do and what he has to do are different things.
I’m sure that President Bush didn’t like some of the things we had to do during his terms, either.
The bipartisan Dana (3e4784) — 2/17/2010 @ 4:42 amI doubt that the Anointed One gives the question a thought. If He does it, it must be moral. Criticing morality of others is His job.
Mike Myers (3c9845) — 2/17/2010 @ 6:24 amI wonder how long this guy holds out before he gives up Bin Laden.
Personally, I’d start by pumping 1000 .22 slugs into him before I asked for information. Then my deal would be simple, give me everything you have and the verifictions for it, and I’ll finish you with one 12 gauge deer slug to the head. Otherwise I clean the .22 and get out another brick of hollow points.
PCD (1d8b6d) — 2/17/2010 @ 6:55 amWho else is gonna do the dirty work?
The French?
Secret Squirrel (6a1582) — 2/17/2010 @ 7:52 amBut when Bush let the Saudis do it, that was wrong. Help me understand. Did they use the wrong brand of gloves?
Is this like holding prisoners indefinitely in Guantanamo is wrong, but holding them in Ft. Leavenworth is OK?
Also, I’m having problems with the whole Eastasia/Eurasia thing.
Kevin Murphy (3c3db0) — 2/17/2010 @ 8:57 am“By letting the Pakistanis do the dirty
work, Obama again votes present.
What an amoral piece of shit Obama is.”
Are you really not familiar with the history of rendition?
[note: fished from spam filter. –Stashiu]
imdw (f1cc51) — 2/17/2010 @ 9:05 amThis sneering from the ‘superior moral position’ is laughable, as though the conflict is a computer game, and a conviction in court is a win. Protecting the public may earn you extra lives, but only if politically advantageous.
jodetoad (7a7b8a) — 2/17/2010 @ 9:41 amImd-dumbass, Please plant your Anti-American dupa between me and any terrorist escaped from Thomson. You both will no longer plague decent society before you hit the ground.
PCD (1d8b6d) — 2/17/2010 @ 10:48 amI think that imdw was pointing out that initially, rendition and CIA_sanctions other-governmental torture was a Clinton-Gore thing.
luagha (5cbe06) — 2/17/2010 @ 11:10 am“Imd-dumbass, Please plant your Anti-American dupa between me and any terrorist escaped from Thomson. You both will no longer plague decent society before you hit the ground.”
I’m sorry what? “dupa”? Can you wipe the spittle off the screen?
I’m talking about how what dude finds “amoral” and “present” is something we’ve had since at least bush/cheney. Probably longer. Are you not familiar with “rendition” ? Maher Arar?
imdw (b67c0f) — 2/17/2010 @ 11:16 amBut… but… Bush lied, people died!
BTW, IMdimwit… the Dude abides…
GeneralMalaise (6f6c82) — 2/17/2010 @ 11:22 am“Who else is gonna do the dirty work?
The French?”
All in all, not a bad choice, given their aversion to personal hygiene.
GeneralMalaise (6f6c82) — 2/17/2010 @ 11:25 amimd-dumbass, find yourself an English-Polish dictionary. You really are cognitively challenged.
PCD (1d8b6d) — 2/17/2010 @ 11:37 amSo ….. if Mullah Douchebag or Abdulmutallabdirtbag are being tortured or having their miranda rights respected, frankly my dear I don’t give a damn.
HeavenSent… Better not to think about what HellSent may be.
Triumph (b66fe4) — 2/17/2010 @ 11:39 amAre you really not familiar with the history of rendition?
If you mean how it goes back to the Clinton administration, we are.
SPQR (26be8b) — 2/17/2010 @ 12:04 pm“imd-dumbass, find yourself an English-Polish dictionary. You really are cognitively challenged.”
Oh yes dumb me for not knowing a language other than the one we are using here: english.
imdw (220b12) — 2/17/2010 @ 12:10 pm“If you mean how it goes back to the Clinton administration, we are.”
And Reagan before him. But like all good “present” and “amoral piece of shit” things, 9/11 really was a boon to the practice. But yes the socialist kenyan muslim is keeping up the practice. And wingnut and lefty ideologues are the only ones surprised.
[note: released from moderation. –Stashiu]
imdw (143bb3) — 2/17/2010 @ 12:18 pmI love how it talks about leftist ideologues as though it is not one. So, dimwit, were the Dems objections and caterwalling just putting politics ahead of practical reality? All of Obama’s carping about these things was BDS and purely partisan, huh?
JD (57d75b) — 2/17/2010 @ 12:30 pm28, Yes, dumb you, you ignorant slut!
PCD (1d8b6d) — 2/17/2010 @ 12:50 pmThe NYTimes (I know, I know) has an interesting take on the capture. Short version that Barador was one of the most accessible members of the Taliban, having offered to negotiate and work with Karzai in the past. Also, Pakistan may have forced Obama’s hand here by moving to capture in order to put themselves in a better negotiation position.
Hadlowe (f36744) — 2/17/2010 @ 12:51 pm“So, dimwit, were the Dems objections and caterwalling just putting politics ahead of practical reality?”
Like what? You mean how obama supported FISA reform? Yes I do think that was a political decision by him. Or how in the 90’s congress decided to investigate the Clenis and not, say, rendition or Echelon? Yes I do think that was a political decision.
Welcome to the real world outside of the totalist black/white vision. You may refer to this as “nuance” but reality is instead quite blunt.
imdw (dba501) — 2/17/2010 @ 12:56 pm“28, Yes, dumb you, you ignorant slut!”
See now this one is english but just as baffling.
imdw (b67c0f) — 2/17/2010 @ 12:58 pmSo when Clinton does it, it is just carrying on an existing practice. When Bush does it, it is torture and shredding the Constitution, and when Barcky does it, it is just practical politics based in reality. Gotcha.
JD (aecc08) — 2/17/2010 @ 1:16 pmComment by imdw — 2/17/2010 @ 12:10 pm
Hey, some of us are from CA, so English IS a foreign language.
AD - RtR/OS! (3742c3) — 2/17/2010 @ 1:35 pm“So when Clinton does it, it is just carrying on an existing practice”
Up to Obama I think each president to approach this rendition issue has expanded and intensified it, all without much oversight from congress. Obama we don’t yet know enough to tell whether it is expanding or continuing apace or reducing. But this action that’s got people thinking he’s “present” and “amoral” is certainly in line with previous practices, specially post 9/11 ones.
imdw (e66d8d) — 2/17/2010 @ 1:39 pmThis shows how fundamentally unserious Barcky, the Dems, and imdw are about these issues.
JD (aecc08) — 2/17/2010 @ 1:45 pmIndeed. My correcting of some wingnut’s knee jerk reaction and showing how this action by the obama admin is consistent with developing and bi-partisan past practices shows how fundamentally unserious barcky the dems and I am about this. Or at least not as fundamentally serious as wingnut blog commenters.
imdw (e66d8d) — 2/17/2010 @ 1:56 pm“Who else is gonna do the dirty work?
The French?”
If the rest of the world had any recollections of what the French did to their prisoners during the Algerian War, then they’d realize that anything we’ve done looks like child’s play by comparison. They’re rumored to still employ many of the techniques they first perfected in that war – battery cables hooked up to the genitals, tearing fingernails out, etc.
Dmac (799abd) — 2/17/2010 @ 2:02 pmAh, but the question is not the past practices of former presidents, but the uncomfortable spectre of hypocrisy hovering over a formerly very vocal critic of tactics such as these.
Don’t get me wrong, I like this aspect of Obama’s prosecution of the war on terror (or overseas contingency operation). More seriousness about the Afghanistan campaign is one of the high points of this administration, so I’m loathe to criticize even the hypocritical angle here.
Hadlowe (f36744) — 2/17/2010 @ 2:08 pmimdw
sorry, but on one hand, they tell the knickerbomber he has the right to remain silent. but then they hand over certain terrorists to countries that wone’t be terribly restrained. And then they benefit from those activities that are supposedly beneath us. Its a steaming pile of hypocrisy.
And you don’t defend that by saying Bush was a hypocrite, too. Even if so (and sorry if i don’t take a terrorist’s word for it), Obama is the bigger hypocrite, because Bush didn’t exactly play footsie with them.
Its like those jews who believe that they aren’t supposed to use “fire” including lightswitches during the sabbath, but hire gentiles to do it for them. Its kind of hard to justify say there is really principled conduct due to the use of a technicality that really doesn’t matter a damn.
A.W. (e7d72e) — 2/17/2010 @ 2:10 pmHad you and your ilk not spent the last 8 years mewling about how the evil Bush was shredding the Constitution, then maybe I would take your nonchalant indifferent attitude a little more seriously.
JD (eef042) — 2/17/2010 @ 2:17 pmwingnut’s knee jerk reaction
as fundamentally serious as wingnut blog commenters.
I do believe the crack – up is now commencing. Using two of the same epithets in one post is quite indicative.
Dmac (799abd) — 2/17/2010 @ 2:19 pm“sorry, but on one hand, they tell the knickerbomber he has the right to remain silent. but then they hand over certain terrorists to countries that wone’t be terribly restrained. And then they benefit from those activities that are supposedly beneath us. Its a steaming pile of hypocrisy.”
If you can’t understand the numerous distinctions between someone captured by law enforcement in detroit and a military leader captured as part of joint military operation in another country, then yes, there are going to be a whole lot of hypocrisies in the world.
But yes you’re noticing something that’s been the case with rendition for a while — it’s termed “extraordinary” rendition for a reason: that it tends to go outside of our laws. I don’t have a solution and I don’t think we’re going to get one, not with democrats in power or the GOP. Maybe Ron Paul has the answer. Maybe that’s enough to get us all to stop looking for an answer.
imdw (de7003) — 2/17/2010 @ 2:22 pm“Had you and your ilk not spent the last 8 years mewling about how the evil Bush was shredding the Constitution, then maybe I would take your nonchalant indifferent attitude a little more seriously.”
Seriously it was looking iffy for a while, but then once you pulled this out:
“This shows how fundamentally unserious Barcky, the Dems, and imdw are about these issues.”
I had to concede what a win you had. As always. You win.
imdw (017d51) — 2/17/2010 @ 2:26 pm“Maybe that’s enough to get us all to stop looking for an answer.”
Maybe we should not stop looking for that answer, but say we did.
GeneralMalaise (6f6c82) — 2/17/2010 @ 2:28 pmAh, now we’re being schooled on “nuance”.
AD - RtR/OS! (3742c3) — 2/17/2010 @ 2:34 pm“Ah, now we’re being schooled on “nuance”.”
If that’s your take away, it seems I’ve certainly failed.
imdw (017d51) — 2/17/2010 @ 2:50 pm“El que menos interes muestra es el que mas interes tiene.”
Old saying my mom taught me about people.
BHO step up and claim the Nobel Price for Hypocrisy.
HeavenSent (c3c032) — 2/17/2010 @ 4:39 pmImdw,
There is no legal difference between a jihadist soldier and jijadist leader.
A.W. (b75c89) — 2/17/2010 @ 5:27 pmThe Paki-stanis use San Pellegrino and most of their interrogators are vegan.
SteveG (909b57) — 2/17/2010 @ 5:57 pmSo it is OK
Imdw
Let me respond a little more deeply here.
> If you can’t understand the numerous distinctions between someone captured by law enforcement in detroit and a military leader captured as part of joint military operation in another country, then yes, there are going to be a whole lot of hypocrisies in the world.
The fact is that both that flight in Detroit and Afghanistan are both battlefields. That’s what most of us understood around 9/12 or so. And both this top commander and the knickerbomber are enemy combatants. And the value of the information would be hard to compare. The commander probably has a lot of high level information, but not so much names, etc.
Further, remember this guy is a commander in the Taliban. To the best of my knowledge the Taliban has never personally attacked us, but instead harbored those who would attack us. So he might know where some bad people are, particularly bin Laden, but he might ultimately know nothing about attacks on United States soil.
By comparison, the knickerbomber might have known the names, or at least the faces of, people who were going to attack United States airlines.
That all being said, I would say this to the conservatives here. It might be hypocritical of Obama to intone on one hand that “we don’t torture” (meaning waterboarding, or apparently anything harsher than asking really nicely) and then on the other hand, give these guys over to people who will not only do waterboarding, but the hard core stuff like pulling fingernails, etc.
But being hypocritical is not the worst sin Obama could have committed. The worst sin would have been to be consistently wussified with them. I would prefer that Obama stop being a weasel about all of this, and authorize our forces to use harsh interrogation methods short of torture. But I’ll take this as a compromise. I just wish obama would have done the same with the knickerbomber.
A.W. (e7d72e) — 2/18/2010 @ 5:51 am