Patterico's Pontifications

2/16/2010

New Jersey Governor Declares State of Fiscal Emergency

Filed under: Economics — DRJ @ 8:11 pm



[Guest post by DRJ]

Last week, Governor Chris Christie declared a state of fiscal emergency in response to New Jersey’s looming $2.2B deficit:

“Calling New Jersey on “the edge of bankruptcy,” Gov. Chris Christie today [2/11/2010] declared a fiscal emergency, seizing broad powers to freeze aid to more than 500 school districts and cut from higher education, hospitals and the Public Advocate.

“New Jersey has been steaming toward financial disaster for years,” the Republican governor said in a speech to both houses of the Legislature. “The people elected us to end the talk and to act decisively. Today is the day for the complaining to end and for statesmanship to begin.”
***
“I take no joy in having to make these decisions. I know these judgments will affect fellow New Jerseyans and will hurt,” Christie said. “This is not a happy moment. However, what choices do we have left?”

Here is a breakdown of Christie’s proposed cuts.

Democrats complained about the hardship caused by cuts to schools during a school year, but Christie responded that the time to act is now. He noted the State’s “fiscal year ends in June, when it is required by law to have a balanced budget, unlike the federal government.”

— DRJ

184 Responses to “New Jersey Governor Declares State of Fiscal Emergency”

  1. I wish we had someone like him in California.

    Roscoe (d6cc54)

  2. we do, but i’m not running for office. %-)

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  3. Wonder if the state’s people will understand the why and accept the tough decisions. Or have they become so accustomed to the gimmes that they will turn back to the Dems who promise everything.

    Same thing on the federal level. Will conservatives be committed to doing what must be done? And accept the difficulties that follow?

    ManlyDad (060305)

  4. Roscoe made the point, but my reaction to hearing that Jersey has a $2.2 billion deficit? “Pffft — amateurs!”

    JVW (fd30ab)

  5. The federal government IS fiscally responsible.

    They make sure to spend every dollar of the excessive taxes that they take in. Some of them are so responsible they will spend it twice!

    Icy Texan (33337e)

  6. I think the other 49 states could use a clone of Christie.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  7. 6.I think the other 49 states could use a clone of Christie.

    Comment by PCD — 2/17/2010 @ 6:42 am

    Because we all know what great things can happen when we slash education budgets. Nothing good can come from an educated public.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  8. 7, Considering you are a prime product of those policies and spending, you make it case closed to slash that spending.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  9. Has there ever been a more predictable and hackneyed response than what that little cretin just typed?

    JD (9a8a4b)

  10. What are the standard test scores of private-school kids compared to public school kids? What are the standard test scores of home-school kids compared to private-school kids? What are the dollars-per-student cost of educating each group of kids?

    Kinda explodes that argument, doesn’t it? (Oops, violent talk there, don’t go shoot somebody!)

    John Hitchcock (e8bda6)

  11. This should be one of the issues we should all agree on: We’ve been overspending and need to start reducing.

    There may be differing ideas on where to reduce; since everything government spends money on has some merit. The argument against cutting any given program has some good argument against it. But we need to cut.

    Take out the hatchet and cut everything by 25% and see what happens.

    Corwin (ea9428)

  12. Wonder if the state’s people will understand the why and accept the tough decisions. Or have they become so accustomed to the gimmes that they will turn back to the Dems who promise everything.

    Comment by ManlyDad — 2/16/2010 @ 9:27 pm

    As long as the public is angry at Obama and Congress and the Democrats are also in control in neighboring states like New York, Delaware and Pennsylvania, Christie has room to maneuver, because the Dems have no place to point to either their own successes, or any nearby Republicans in power to push off the blame onto for their own past failures while Corzine was governor. So now through the end of the year is the time for Christie to act when he has the greatest chance of public anger cowering Democrats in the state legislature not to obstruct his proposals.

    John (8de657)

  13. Because we all know what great things can happen when we slash education budgets. Nothing good can come from an educated public.

    This is probably a difficult concept for you to understand but public school spending doesn’t have any clear correlation with education results.

    Gerald A (a66d02)

  14. This is probably a difficult concept for you to

    understand but public school spending doesn’t have any clear correlation with education results.

    Comment by Gerald A — 2/17/2010 @ 7:59 am

    Data, please.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  15. Because we all know what great things can happen when we slash education budgets. Nothing good can come from an educated public.

    Comment by Intelliology — 2/17/2010 @ 6:47 am

    That comment is rather hilarious in light of this post today from Market Ticker:

    http://www.market-ticker.org/archives/1971-LOCAL-Government-WASTE-DDR-Now-A-School-Function.html

    Yes, it appears that a local middle school is spending tens of thousands of dollars to install Dance Dance Revolution for gym class rather than get their kids outside and make them run laps.

    Perhaps if school districts spent a little less money trying to get the latest “gee-whiz” technological innovations, and more time focusing on the overall quality of their curriculums, they’d find that they wouldn’t have to worry so much about meeting their budgets every year.

    Another Chris (2d8013)

  16. -Sorry, I meant to quote the entire portion. Either way, I’d like you to back up that golden nugget you just dropped onto all of us.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  17. What is ‘local’ to you may not be ‘local’ to me, Chris. Also, citing a story about one particular school system, then extrapolating that to the entire United States of America is a bit of a stretch.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  18. There are scores of studies that show no correlation between spending and school performance, Intelliology. But commenting on topics on which you have negative knowledge ( ie., more of what you think you “know” is wrong than correct ) seems to be your practice – after complete fabrication that is.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  19. Less commentary, more data SPQR.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  20. If spending was a good indicator of success in edcation, then the Chicago and DC public schools should be some of the best in the country.

    JD (7887cd)

  21. Please, if money solved our education problems, then we’d have no problems–we’ve spent a fortune on education and we still have people graduating who can’t read. We’ve spent billions on the war on poverty and that hasn’t improved either. But, of course, the government’s kneejerk reaction to every problem is to throw more money at it, even if we have to borrow to do it.

    Rochf (ae9c58)

  22. Nothing good can come from an educated public.

    Best case of cognitive dissonance yet from the child prodigy.

    Dmac (799abd)

  23. Intelliology, more research on your own and less pull-up failures.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  24. You want source material, introlliology? You willing to link-surf, introlliology?

    No? I didn’t think so. But for those who do want some source material, check out some of the information I provided already. You’ll have to do some secondary and tertiary link-surfing, but like the old Prego commercials said, it’s in there.

    John Hitchcock (e8bda6)

  25. Forget it. I don’t need any data, SPQR/Chris. JD says that you are correct so it must be so. I don’t understand why anyone would run any study when there is an expert like JD around; they could simply ask him what the results would be.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  26. This is probably a difficult concept for you to
    understand but public school spending doesn’t have any clear correlation with education results.
    Comment by Gerald A — 2/17/2010 @ 7:59 am

    Data, please.

    Comment by Intelliology — 2/17/2010 @ 8:00 am

    Here’s just a few.

    http://www.mackinac.org/7761

    http://cfpolicyblog.blogspot.com/2009/09/no-correlation-between-pa-school.html

    http://www.bowgroup.org/harriercollectionitems/Ed%20Spend%20Final.pdf

    http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_comment/kaza200311140851.asp

    People have been pointing this stuff out for years now. The third one looks at the UK. The 4th looks at Clinton’s big Arkansas spending increases in a program run by Hillary, for which they raised the state sales tax. The failure of that to show results has also been remarked upon quite a bit. Lazio brought that up in a debate with her in her first Senate campaign.

    Gerald A (a66d02)

  27. Intelliology, you’ve never brought any “data” to the table with your claims. So we know how well you practice what you preach. And in fact, I’ve already caught you making stuff up out of whole cloth.

    So don’t pretend that I am the one with the reputation for lying. That’s you.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  28. He hasn’t graduated yet from his Huggies phase, SPQR. But he really wants to be a big boy, so we’ll all rejoice when he can make doody all on his own!

    Still waiting for his piece buttressing his AGW statements of “fact.”

    (crickets chirping)

    Dmac (799abd)

  29. 1.mackinac-conservative public policy group
    2. a blog
    3. bowgroup- ‘a centre-right think tank’
    4. nationalreview-conservative

    Could you cite a few studies that didn’t come to a conclusion before the data was made up (I mean, collected)?

    Intelliology (00d844)

  30. Did anyone really expect a response other than you want to slash education, make us less safe by cutting cops and fire, and want to starve kids and kill old people? This is the standard response from leftists any time cuts are needed.

    JD (7887cd)

  31. The unintional irony of its last comment is a thing of beauty.

    JD (7887cd)

  32. Forget it. I don’t need any data, SPQR/Chris.

    …”because I never actually look up anything to prove my screeching, because I’m just way smarter than you!”

    Time to ask Stashiu what the boy wonder actually brings into the discussion here, other than the usual feces – throwing.

    Dmac (799abd)

  33. JD- You know perfectly well that if I came up with studies from Brookings that you would dismiss them just as quickly. But you’re dishonest and petty, so it is different when I do it. Right?

    Intelliology (00d844)

  34. #26, you are just an anti-teacher union racist. That data is flawed. I would need way more data, please cite at least 200 government-sanctioned reports. Do my leg work. I don’t know how to spell Google nor public spending nor correlation or education. And I turned off spell check because it hurts my feelings when I type.

    Besides, everybody knows you have to spend more money in order to create more money.

    Corwin (ea9428)

  35. JD’s comment regarding DC public schools should have been enough data for you. This is such a well-known fact that it would be like you asking for proof that the earth is round.

    Lack of information can easily be forgiven, for we all lack information that others of us know.

    It’s the snide hostility that is harder to forgive, for we are not all that. But since none of us are perfect, the mercy of forgiveness can be extended to you as well.

    But if you want to be listened to I suggest you drop the snide hostility. Currently your main contribution is to dilute meaningful threads by Gibbserish and promoting counter-Gibbserish, like this. Being annoying gets attention, but the list of things that get attention by being annoying is not an enviable list.

    MD in Philly (d4668b)

  36. 35.JD’s comment regarding DC public schools should have been enough data for you. It’s the snide hostility

    Exactly… why bother to fund studies when we can just ask JD.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  37. Could you cite a few studies that didn’t come to a conclusion before the data was made up (I mean, collected)?

    What are your sources that spending increases results? Also why are you psychotic?

    Gerald A (a66d02)

  38. . GUESS WHAT NEW JERSEY? TEACHERS ARE RAISING YOUR CHILDREN!!! SOCIAL WORKERS ARE LISTENING TO YOUR SURBURBAN CHILDREN GETTING HIGH ON HEROIN!!! If Christie cannot see the need for these services or does not value them, New Jersey is going down!

    Interesting comment by ACD in there.

    1) Parents need to be raising their own children, they should not be wards of the State.
    2) If the kids are on heroin, then I think the social workers aren’t doing their job. Besides, it is parents who need to be listening to their own children. Not state government employees.

    rbj (65c648)

  39. ^From an earlier thread:

    But, if you want to use poop to emphasize your points, then I guess you are welcome to do so. Just don’t be surprised when get sick when you eat finger foods directly after you handle poop and don’t wash your hands. But, by now I’ll bet you’ve built up an imunity. Congrats? I guess.

    Dmac (799abd)

  40. Introlliology, why do private schools have higher standardized test scores than public schools while spending far less per student? Why do home schools have higher standardized test scores than private schools while spending far less per student?

    John Hitchcock (e8bda6)

  41. That comment was attributed to – well, you know.

    Dmac (799abd)

  42. http://www.edwize.org/cfe-education-funding-makes-a-difference

    Go ahead and disregard it since it doesn’t follow your narrative.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  43. And why do teacher unions want to shut down private- and home-schooling, since those two forms of schooling provide better-educated students?

    John Hitchcock (e8bda6)

  44. MD – it is feverishly looking for its talking points. As someone noted, when a leftist starts demanding studies, there will never be any amount that will satisfy them, but if the conclusion is one that fits their narrative, little to nothing is required as proof. Given how this one acted vis a vis the AGW fraud, the unintentional irony of it demanding proof about a water is wet idea is hysterical.

    Oh, and FWIW people, MD had an awesome catch where he showed how SUK had deliberately and dishonestly distorted the quote from Rush about the violence inducing rhetoric, one which will obviously be ignored, the narrative and all.

    JD (cb9226)

  45. Here’s data: it costs less to educate kids in the private school that the Obama girls go to than it does to educate a child in the DC public school system. In spite of that, the Dems did away with the program that gave some kids the opportunity to go to that school.

    I think President Carter, for all of his faults, did at least one thing of principle in sending Amy to a public school. Even if one decided it was better for the child to attend a private school, which I could accept, there is no rational reason to forbid a child to go to a better school at less cost when it is possible. Only an ideologue who cares more about an agenda than people would do that.

    And I agree with Dmac at #32. Either that or we need more “Ignore an arguemnt with a troll” 12 step meetings as someone previously suggested…

    MD in Philly (d4668b)

  46. As someone noted, when a leftist starts demanding studies, there will never be any amount that will satisfy them

    Studies from the national review will not satisfy me. On that point it is right.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  47. Time to ask Stashiu what the boy wonder actually brings into the discussion here, other than the usual feces – throwing.
    Comment by Dmac — 2/17/2010 @ 8:27 am

    No, that’s pretty much all he’s got. On my ever-growing “Do Not Respond” list.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  48. http://www.edwize.org/cfe-education-funding-makes-a-difference

    Go ahead and disregard it since it doesn’t follow your narrative.

    Comment by Intelliology — 2/17/2010 @ 8:41 am

    That’s a blog. You established that blogs don’t count.

    There’s no study there.

    Could you cite a few studies that didn’t come to a conclusion before the data was made up (I mean, collected)?

    Gerald A (a66d02)

  49. Also you still haven’t answered my question about why you’re psychotic.

    Gerald A (a66d02)

  50. http://www.edwize.org/cfe-education-funding-makes-a-difference

    I might also point out that site appears to be a NYC teacher’s union website. It’s not a stretch to say they have a vested interest in more spending. Contrary to the sites I linked that have no vested interest.

    Gerald A (a66d02)

  51. Thanks JD,

    I was actually going to add to my last post, “I get annoyed when I (occasionally) have a good point that gets swallowed up by refuse”.

    It is like trying to argue with a small child, even a brilliant one. They just want their own way and do not have the emotional maturity to recognize things in perspective, such as the limited response he made to my point above.

    I remember one episode where I actually said out loud, “Why am I arguing with a 5 year old!?” He was (is) brilliant and demanded a rational explanation why he couldn’t have his way, but nothing would satisfy him now matter how reasonable.

    MD in Philly (d4668b)

  52. Comment by Gerald A — 2/17/2010 @ 8:49 am

    There was data on the page. You should click on the links before you assume what is or isn’t in them… otherwise you look like a fool.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  53. There was data on the page. You should click on the links before you assume what is or isn’t in them… otherwise you look like a fool. [Introlliology]

    1.mackinac-conservative public policy group
    2. a blog
    3. bowgroup- ‘a centre-right think tank’
    4. nationalreview-conservative

    Could you cite a few studies that didn’t come to a conclusion before the data was made up (I mean, collected)? [Introlliology]

    This is too easy.

    John Hitchcock (e8bda6)

  54. On my ever-growing “Do Not Respond” list.
    – Stashiu3

    I think this will prove useful in the future, thank you, Stashiu3

    MD in Philly (d4668b)

  55. Does introlliology ever think before it posts? Nevermind, I already know the answer.

    John Hitchcock (e8bda6)

  56. “You know perfectly well that if I came up with studies from Brookings that you would dismiss them just as quickly.”
    So instead, check out a teachers-union blog. It has all the answers (I know, because I checked the answers in the back of the book).

    Corwin (ea9428)

  57. I clicked on the links, John.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  58. If one were to graph spending versus test scores one would find a direct correlation.

    The more we have spent on the public education system the lower the scores have become.
    The places where spending per pupil is highest (Washington, DC anyone) have scores in the lowest ranking.

    So un-intelliogy is not completly wrong, there is a correlation.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  59. Um… you’re welcome to come over and take a look at my history window.

    This one isn’t too bright.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  60. Have Blue, you shouldn’t have done that. Introlliology will immediately link correlation to causation in his false-choice fallacy response. Let me help it out a little bit. We should quit spending any money whatsoever on education so we can have an entire nation full of Einsteins.

    John Hitchcock (e8bda6)

  61. “You know perfectly well that if I came up with studies from Brookings that you would dismiss them just as quickly.”
    So instead, check out a teachers-union blog. It has all the answers (I know, because I checked the answers in the back of the book).

    At the risk of adding nothing to the thread…

    heh

    Hadlowe (f36744)

  62. So you admit you have no proof, troll?

    John Hitchcock (e8bda6)

  63. 61- Nah, I won’t go that far. But what you have just stumbled upon is the real heart of my argument. Indeed if we do spend zero dollars on education we will not have any result, so at some point educational funding and results do have a direct correlation on each other. There is no question about that.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  64. The troll certainly convinced me with that unbiased blog post.

    Edwize is sponsored by the United Federation of Teachers (UFT) as a place where members, public education advocates and others can express opinions

    If anybody wants the ultimate example, try the Kansas City experiment.

    To improve the education of black students and to encourage desegregation, a federal judge ordered the Kansas City (Missouri) school district to come up with a cost-is-no-object educational plan and ordered local and state taxpayers to find the money to pay for it. Kansas City spent as much as $11,700 per pupil, more money per pupil on a cost of living adjusted basis than any other of the 280 largest school districts in the country. The money paid for higher teachers’ salaries, 15 new schools, and such amenities as an Olympic-sized swimming pool, television studios, a robotics laboratory, a wildlife sanctuary and zoo, a model United Nations, and field trips to Mexico and Senegal. The student-teacher ratio became 12 or 13 to 1, the lowest of any major school district in the country. In spite of all of this, achievement test scores did not rise, the gap between black and white students did not narrow, and there was less, rather than more, integration. The experiment in Kansas City suggests that educational problems cannot be solved by throwing money at them. The structural problems of the educational system are far more than a lack of material resources.

    QED

    Mike K (2cf494)

  65. And I do know you did not link-surf from my link. I gave a link to a link-central on my site, where if you surf those links you’ll find many more links, some to newspaper outlets such as the Columbus Dispatch and the New York Times.

    Of the 3 people who went from here to there, none of them went beyond that link-central. (That means you definitely weren’t interested in any info.)

    John Hitchcock (e8bda6)

  66. Wish I could remember where I read about duplicative departments and agencies in the fed. gov. Something like 56 agencies try to do the same thing, probably badly. Sounds like a lot of money, offices, staff, etc.

    My state, CA, seems to be full of whiny people on entitlement pacifiers. Yanking or cutting those pacifiers will set off tantrums, but we’re out of options.

    Throwing money at education is absurd. People around the world learn with sticks and dirt, or pencils and paper. Education is burdened with bureaucracy, rules, administrators, and unions, but actual learning is cheap.

    jodetoad (7a7b8a)

  67. You’re making that up, John. I clicked on the links. Liar.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  68. Any data on the educational results of schools that use dirt and sticks?

    Intelliology (00d844)

  69. There were at least 5 links given to you, idiot, and within 7 minutes, you had dismissed them out of hand. You may have clicked on the links, but you sure as hell made no attempt to read or understand them, choosing instead to vivisect the messenger. Transparently disingenuous, you are.

    JD (456430)

  70. Troll, you obviously don’t know what information I receive. When claiming to a blog-owner that you link-surfed his blog, you should know that blog-owner has information.

    Top Posts & Pages

    These posts on your blog got the most traffic.
    Today
    Title Views
    ObamaNation On Education 3 More stats
    Home page 1 More stats
    Amy Bishop Is A Bad Person 1 More stats
    The “Pill”: It Kills? 1 More stats

    And the 3 hits on ObamaNation came from Patterico. Note there were no hits on any of the links provided by that link-central.

    John Hitchcock (e8bda6)

  71. There was data on the page. You should click on the links before you assume what is or isn’t in them… otherwise you look like a fool.

    It was made up. It’s a union web site.

    Gerald A (a66d02)

  72. Would like to point out that we are not discussing NJ’s attempts to fix the disaster the Democrat party caused but are now debating self evident facts with a chimp.

    Have Blue (854a6e)

  73. Why do you people debate trolls ? Don’t you know that is what they eat ?

    Mike K (2cf494)

  74. A note of clarity: The 3 hits came from this site, not necessarily from the person (likely none from the person).

    John Hitchcock (e8bda6)

  75. There was data on the page. You should click on the links before you assume what is or isn’t in them… otherwise you look like a fool.

    What’s data got to do with it anyway? It’s a blog. Blogs don’t count. Remember psycho?

    And it’s a union blog, so it’s made up and can be ignored.

    Gerald A (a66d02)

  76. But what you have just stumbled upon is the real heart of my argument. Indeed if we do spend zero dollars on education we will not have any result, so at some point educational funding and results do have a direct correlation on each other. There is no question about that.
    Comment by Intelliology

    You are seriously saying that is the “real heart of my argument”? That is about as pointless as it gets.

    Let’s see what we get if we use that principle elsewhere:

    If a farmer uses zero water on their crops, they will not get any return, so use as much water as possible, more is better, try to keep the fields under 3 inches of water, or more, if possible.

    High cholesterol puts people at risk for heart disease and people with low cholesterol have less risk of heart disease, so people with no cholesterol would have hearts that would be the healthiest. Well, they may have the healthiest hearts, but they also have the dumbest brains and nonfunctioning peripheral nervous sytems as well. In practice people with very low cholesterol either have big trouble from a congenital metabolic defect, or have an undiagnosed cancer or other severe problem that is literally stealing nutrition from their body.

    Now, the main purposes for this was to:
    1. Make it unnecessary for other people to point out
    2. Educate those who are just looking in so they don’t need to spend anymore time looking at Intel’s posts
    3. Practice my typing
    4. Occupying time while my daughter is on a live time computer conferenced class discussion
    5. For general curiosity if anyone is interested,

    I do not expect there will be any meaningful interaction with Intel,

    Two final points:
    1. On my ever-growing “Do Not Respond” list.
    – Stashiu3
    2. Everyone say after me, “I recognize I am powerless in myself to avoid interacting with an irritating troll…

    MD in Philly (d4668b)

  77. MD, there are some trolls I have chosen to completely ignore. And sometimes I fail. But it’s sometimes fun to play “whack a troll” especially when they’re so easy to whack, like introlliology.

    Others have proven it is a liar; I had to get in on the act, giving more proof it is a liar. I really should quit feeding the trolls, but I can’t whack them if I don’t feed them.

    John Hitchcock (e8bda6)

  78. Argument to the absurd is a logical fallacy, Intelliology. Yet another gap in your extraordinary education.

    SPQR (8475fc)

  79. Gerald A., ah good point. Intelliology did once ridicule a blog link I gave, even though the blog was written by an expert cited by the IPCC itself on the very topic at issue.

    Intelliology really can’t even recall his own drivel once he’s written it.

    SPQR (8475fc)

  80. But what you have just stumbled upon is the real heart of my argument. Indeed if we do spend zero dollars on education we will not have any result, so at some point educational funding and results do have a direct correlation on each other. There is no question about that.

    Comment by Intelliology — 2/17/2010 @ 9:32 am

    Bull. This isn’t the heart of your argument at all. Your argument is that the more money we spend on education, the better the quality of education will be. By your logic, Washington DC should have the best public school system in the country.

    Another Chris (2d8013)

  81. The heart of its argument is that the evil Republicans want to slash slash slash education spending and valiant warriors for the cause like idiotology want to save their precious dollars, for the children. We are talking about an education system that produced the cast of the Jersey Shore.

    JD (b09d7d)

  82. Since actual facts have defenestrated Wonder Boy once again, he’ll conveniently disappear shortly until the next thread, in the hope that it’s past mendacity will naturally be forgotten. No different than Myron, who ran away as soon as his idiotic polling source at Kos was laughed out of existence via sources coming from lefty pollsters themselves.

    Dmac (799abd)

  83. spending and valiant warriors for the cause like idiotology want to save their precious dollars, for the children.

    I dunno, JD – the kid sounds a lot like just another Trustafarian with deep – seated Daddy issues. You know the kind – Daddy pays for all of it’s education and living expenses, yet Daddy’s still a sh-t.

    Dmac (799abd)

  84. Actually, Chris, I reserve the right to think what I think. Thanks for helping me out, but no help necessary.

    Pretend that what I just wrote is my argument (instead of jumping to conclusions about what other people believe). How do you refute that?

    Intelliology (00d844)

  85. “I wish we had someone like him in California.”

    Comment by Roscoe — 2/16/2010

    Amen, Roscoe… my sentiments exactly. Tom McClintock would’ve been a much better choice out here in what was once paradise than who was elected.

    GeneralMalaise (6f6c82)

  86. Dmac.

    I have stated in the past that I have other affairs to attend to. So if I ‘disappear’ it is because life needs living. If I had the intelligence and personality of you and JD I would disappear into the blogosphere too.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  87. “Indeed if we do spend zero dollars on education we will not have any result, so at some point educational funding and results do have a direct correlation on each other. There is no question about that.”

    Comment by Intelliology — 2/17/2010

    LOL… unintended comedy gold…

    GeneralMalaise (6f6c82)

  88. Huh? You’re unintendedly supid.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  89. “I have stated in the past that I have other affairs to attend to. So if I ‘disappear’ it is because life needs living. If I had the intelligence and personality of you and JD I would disappear into the blogosphere too.”

    “life needs living”… and with a pffffttt… he was gone.

    I see we have another, budding Deepcrap Chopra in our midst.

    GeneralMalaise (6f6c82)

  90. Huh? You’re unintendedly stupid.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  91. Indeed if we do spend zero dollars on education we will not have any result,

    I’m sure someone else has already pointed out that this is a false statement. If there is no government spending on education, there would still be people who would educate their children on their own, either through home-schooling or private schools.

    So, if we spent zero dollars on education, we would have some positive result. The question becomes how much greater a result we get from spending, and where the returns start to diminish.

    Some chump (d97978)

  92. Home schooling and private schooling are both not free.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  93. “Huh? You’re unintendedly supid.”

    Comment by Intelliology

    I see he’s fallen prey to the old “typing through the tears” malady…

    GeneralMalaise (6f6c82)

  94. Perhaps you should read my correction. Was your mom not available to read it to you?

    Intelliology (00d844)

  95. It’s okay if you can’t read; you’re probably just a victim of a school district that had too much money, too many enriching class options, too small of a teacher-student ratio, functioning lights and clocks and sinks and drinking fountains. That sounds about right; did I capture the essence of your argument?

    Intelliology (00d844)

  96. “Huh? You’re unintendedly stupid.”

    Methinks you’re wrong – on this. There’s nothing even remotely “unintended” with those guys.

    Triumph (b66fe4)

  97. Too bad Patterico can’t screen out the liberals who live in their parents basement and have nothing to do with their lives.

    PCD (1d8b6d)

  98. So now you want to bring mothers into it?

    Okeedoke… I heard yo mama had to be pissed drunk just to breast feed you.

    GeneralMalaise (6f6c82)

  99. Tiredrump to da rescue!

    GeneralMalaise (6f6c82)

  100. Really, lads, you’d best not dawdle when you’re severely outclassed. Run along, now… for “life needs living”…

    GeneralMalaise (6f6c82)

  101. “I have stated in the past that I have other affairs to attend to.

    …”which is why I ran away for two days immediately after being asked to explain my AGW theories with actual sources. Now as I’ve stated in the past, I have an urgent affair with my mother’s bottle of Jergens.”

    Huh? You’re unintendedly supid.

    Funniest line so far – let’s see if he can top it.

    Dmac (799abd)

  102. Home schooling and private schooling are both not free.

    Quite disingenuous of you, but not unexpected. The point to this entire thread is government spending, not private spending.

    Your very first post on this thread was bemoaning cuts in government spending on education.

    Some chump (d97978)

  103. Education:
    • $475 million cut in aid for school districts with budget surpluses.

    Why would a school district running a surplus need aid?

    Blacque Jacques Shellacque (efef8c)

  104. It is another Moronic Convergence. Stand by and gaze at the in bewildered awe. Point and laugh.

    JD (57d75b)

  105. This is sad, but funny. There is a projected $11 billion shortage and the democrats wonder why the Repub Gov is declaring an emergency. One democrat wants to know why the state isn’t using their $500 million dollar “rainy day” fund before freezing/slashing spending.
    Lets see, if they spend the whole $500 million that leaves a shortage of only $10.5 billion. Well, that “rainy day” money will surely save their bacon! Absolutely no reason to cut spending. Spending that cushion takes it from a 39.3% short fall to only a 37.5% short fall.
    THEY ARE SAVED, stupid Republican gov, can’t even figure that out! /sarcasm

    cstmbuild (be02cc)

  106. But cstmbuild, 500 is a much bigger number than 11… at least that is what Obama said about 100 (million) compared to 1 (trillion)…

    I hope Christie is up to it. I don’t know if I would want his job if they gave it to me with a blank check for my salary.

    MD in Philly (d4668b)

  107. The point to this entire thread is government spending, not private spending.

    Some chimp: I know that it may be difficult for you to understand, but not all government spending is bad. For example, if a road needs fixed or a bridge needs built, it makes much more sense for one body to be in charge. If you’d like to go back to the little house on the prarie days of education then you’re more than welcome to. Remember, they were using leaches as a cure-all back then. Enjoy!

    Intelliology (00d844)

  108. The greatest tragedy that could befall education would be the banning of private schools, for then the Public-Ed teachers would have no place to send their kids.

    AD - RtR/OS! (3742c3)

  109. Idiotology is now arguing with the voices in its head.

    JD (aecc08)

  110. Though I have not met him so I am not for certain, I would venture to guess that some chimp is a real person and not just inside my head. Thanks for playing, though.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  111. Now THAT is clearly a case of arguing with idiots.

    GeneralMalaise (6f6c82)

  112. Chimptology has beclowned himself… AGAIN.

    GeneralMalaise (6f6c82)

  113. Never argue, just shake your head and walk away.

    AD - RtR/OS! (3742c3)

  114. I know that it may be difficult for you to understand, but not all government spending is bad. For example, if a road needs fixed or a bridge needs built, it makes much more sense for one body to be in charge. If you’d like to go back to the little house on the prarie days of education then you’re more than welcome to. Remember, they were using leaches as a cure-all back then.

    They still use leeches in microsurgery when they reattach limbs and such.

    I bet the average 8th grader in “Little house on the prairie” was better in math and was better read in the classics than 8th graders today.

    And it does make sense for one body to be in charge of fixing roads and such, and if I could find that one body that is responsible for fixing the craters that pass as potholes on my street that would be very convenient.

    Th idea that some government spending is good is about as profound that if no resources were devoted to education that would not be good.

    1. On my ever-growing “Do Not Respond” list.
    – Stashiu3
    2. Everyone say after me, “I recognize I am powerless in myself to avoid interacting with an irritating troll… still trying

    MD in Philly (d4668b)

  115. I don’t think you’re reading the same thread that I am, general mayonaise.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  116. Me-Remember, they were using leaches as a cure-all back then.

    MD-They still use leeches in microsurgery when they reattach limbs and such.

    Would you like me to quietly wait while you move the goal posts?

    Intelliology (00d844)

  117. The point you argued against, and the clear point that some chump made only resembled each othe insofar as they both appeared to be written in English.

    JD (aecc08)

  118. I disagree, JD. That makes you a liar.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  119. ““I recognize I am powerless in myself to avoid interacting with an irritating troll… still trying

    Comment by MD in Philly”

    To be honest, I don’t really get the snide attitude of ‘why are you idiots responding to that loser?’ Not from you, just the general schizophrenic idea that we’re welcoming enough to allow obvious trolls but we look down on those who are too stupid to realize they should ignore that.

    Stash is great. Not trying to bash him. It’s just that ‘ ignore it ignore it ignore it ‘ is just as troll feedy as actually pointing out what an insecure weirdo Intelliology is.

    MD, you have no reason to avoid interacting with an irritating troll. If you’re not supposed to, they should delete the comment. The idea of a comment thread with parts you aren’t supposed to respond to is just bizarre. Just don’t think these arguments actually matter that much.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  120. MD in Phily…Here is just one section of the 8th-Grade final exam given in KS in 1895:

    “… U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes)
    1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided
    2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus
    3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
    4. Show the territorial growth of the United States
    5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas
    6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
    7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton , Bell , Lincoln , Penn, and Howe?
    8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, 1865…”

    There are five sections, with a five-hour alloted time.

    AD - RtR/OS! (3742c3)

  121. As the illness progresses, the symptoms often become more bizarre. The patient develops peculiar behavior, begins talking in nonsense, and has unusual perceptions. This is the beginning of psychosis. Psychiatrists diagnose schizophrenia when a patient has had active symptoms of the illness (such as a psychotic episode) for at least two weeks, with other symptoms lasting six months. In many cases, patients experience psychotic symptoms for many months before seeking help. Schizophrenia seems to worsen and become better in cycles known as relapse and remission, respectively. At times, people suffering from schizophrenia appear relatively normal. However, during the acute or psychotic phase, people with schizophrenia cannot think logically and may lose all sense of who they and others are. They suffer from delusions, hallucinations or disordered thinking and speech.

    Sound like anybody that we know?

    [note: fished from spam filter. Link fixed, originally covered entire comment. Spammy said, “Yum!”. –Stashiu]

    peedoffamerican (b21f59)

  122. I realize, for example, that it’s impractical to attempt to delete every comment like #118. Sure, it’s ugly and hostile, but that guy has probably been banned a few times and just comes back. It’s super easy to do that.

    So it’s tempting to point out that intell did lie many times and his counterexample is another example of dishonesty (JD isn’t lying for disagreeing and doesn’t actually treat all he disagrees with as lies).

    If it mattered at all, you should ignore it. but he won’t go away even if you do.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  123. Actually JD deems everything he disagrees with (even the rendering of an opinion) as a lie. Will you go away if I ignore you?

    Intelliology (00d844)

  124. I wish the governor luck but as for the clone, no thanks. We don’t need emergency slashing in Texas, we have a small surplus, a rainy day fund, we aren’t looking frantically for ways to raise taxes and we lead the country in creating new non-government jobs. I do love Texas. I am so glad I got out of California. The Dems still have a hook in my guts because my income is from a business in California but if I lived there I would be trapped by my house and would truly despair.

    The Governor may start something if he is successful so I hope he survives and thrives. There are many blue states that desperately need to follow his example.

    Machinist (9780ec)

  125. If you’re not supposed to, they should delete the comment. The idea of a comment thread with parts you aren’t supposed to respond to is just bizarre.
    Comment by Dustin — 2/17/2010 @ 1:48 pm

    This is why I comment as an individual so much less than I used to. It get taken for policy when it’s not. *sigh*

    If it mattered at all, you should ignore it. but he won’t go away even if you do.
    Comment by Dustin — 2/17/2010 @ 1:52 pm

    This is not so. If you don’t feed trolls, they will go away. They might return on occasion to see if they can get someone to bite, but they’ll leave again if they don’t get attention. They troll for a reason.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  126. What’s up with the filter, Stashie3?

    peedoffamerican (b21f59)

  127. I think Stashiu3 is spot – on, as usual. Dccrpp came by much less frequently once his oxygen of attention was cut off. Of course, he was later banned for a time as well. Good advice, and I’ll try to ignore in the future.

    Dmac (799abd)

  128. Fixed POA. Link was wonky so spam filter thought it looked tasty.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  129. As the illness progresses, the symptoms often become more bizarre. The patient develops peculiar behavior, begins talking in nonsense, and has unusual perceptions. This is the beginning of psychosis. Psychiatrists diagnose schizophrenia when a patient has had active symptoms of the illness (such as a psychotic episode) for at least two weeks, with other symptoms lasting six months. In many cases, patients experience psychotic symptoms for many months before seeking help. Schizophrenia seems to worsen and become better in cycles known as relapse and remission, respectively. At times, people suffering from schizophrenia appear relatively normal. However, during the acute or psychotic phase, people with schizophrenia cannot think logically and may lose all sense of who they and others are. They suffer from delusions, hallucinations or disordered thinking and speech.

    Sound like anybody that we know?

    peedoffamerican (b21f59)

  130. Chimptology… haven’t we reached that hour of the day when you either 1) go down for a nap or 2) go off to live that “life that needs living”?

    GeneralMalaise (6f6c82)

  131. Sorry for posting it again without the link. It just now showed up after numerous refreshes.

    peedoffamerican (b21f59)

  132. Dustin – I have only called it a liar when it has lied.

    JD (eef042)

  133. Oh, you mean when its’ fingers are typing?

    AD - RtR/OS! (3742c3)

  134. lips-fingers

    peedoffamerican (b21f59)

  135. “Dustin – I have only called it a liar when it has lied.

    Comment by JD

    Of course. I know that.

    Stash, I know it’s not blog policy. I wasn’t taking your comments personally or anything and I wasn’t even criticizing you (I went out of my way to say I wasn’t criticizing you, if you read my comment again).

    We just disagree on how trolls work here. I think they just won’t even go away. They will just get more and more coarse. And it can be hard to tell exactly when they are sincere anyway.

    My point was that when you go out of your way to point out that you are ignoring them, you’re not really ignoring them. You’re calling them stupid without dignifying their remarks, but still calling attention to their phenomena.

    Which is cool. It also probably really annoys them. Like I said, I’m not criticizing you (even though if I hadn’t said so specifically, that’s exactly what it looks like). I just don’t think it’s coherent… I don’t understand it. I’d rather just directly say “You are wrong” or actually not address them at all.

    Not saying you ought to follow my ideas, of course. I really don’t think this trolling thing is worth the effort of ignoring or “winning” each argument. It’s fun to really dig into a troll once in a while, though, when they are so ugly they actually help you get to a larger point. That’s why I might go on and on with imdw about something that he’s really ugly about, and then not address any trolls for weeks.

    anyway, I appreciate all your work here and I don’t think you should avoid commenting as though people will think it’s official blog policy not to address trolls (though you have to admit, that’s exactly how it feels if this kind of back and forth we’re having doesn’t occur). Now, you get to have your cake (say you ignore trolls) and eat it (say that your comments are not blog policy).

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  136. Some chimp: I know that it may be difficult for you to understand, but not all government spending is bad.

    I never made such an argument, thanks for knocking down your flimsy straw man.

    My first post in this thread responded to your false implication that if the government didn’t spend any money on education, that no one would ever be educated.

    Instead of owning up to your statement, you try to beat an argument that I never advanced.

    I’m done responding to you. You’ve shown your lack of intellectual honesty far too many times for me to waste another key stroke on you.

    Some chump (d97978)

  137. Dustin,
    I must respectfully disagree. While ignoring the trolls may not make them disappear, it would allow the discussion to proceed on the topic of the post. The trolls dominate and control the discussion threads on this site. This is not due to the owner or moderators but the commenters. When a troll has no argument or answer to a post topic he just drops a provocative comment and a handful of commenters jump in to outdo each other in putting down the troll and showing his irrelevance. Meanwhile the troll happily leads them down his tangent, in complete control of the discussion, and the original subject is forgotten. This is sad because there have been many great topics posted in a superior way to any one else and there are some outstanding commenters here that can make the discussions even more interesting than the posts, until the trolls take over and shout “everyone out of the pool”. If you look at some of the interesting topics showing that have attracted many comments you will see what I am talking about. They almost all start on topic but if you skip ahead in the comments you will find they are interchangeable exchanges with and about the same trolls and have nothing to do with the post.

    If the trolls were ignored then some interesting discussions could take place and if the trolls got disruptive they would get themselves put into moderation. The commenters here are one of the sites greatest attractions but also it’s weakness. I don’t even read the comments at other sites but it often is pointless here when the trolls control things.

    Machinist (9780ec)

  138. Dustin-

    I was simply making a largely humorous reference to somebody in the past suggesting a 12-step program in ignoring trolls, which was itself meant to be humorous.

    In one way I would like to participate in a way that avoids trolling, as I really do get annoyed by all of the Gibbserish one needs to wade through to keep track of important stuff. But then again, who am I to tell everyone else what they should do on someone else’s blog, especially one so successful as to hit the 20 mil mark (congrats!!)

    It seems they do practice trying to see how ridiculous they have to be to draw a strike.

    Intel (116), my points (114) were meant to be interesting and not intended to move any goalposts anywhere, just tweeking your sense of invincibility. This discussion was won by a shutout long ago, this is just the 5th quarter entertainment.

    Re 120 AD – RtR/OS!,
    Thank you for the documentation, sometimes Intel claims to work with references.
    5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas Basketball started there, right?

    MD in Philly (d4668b)

  139. I am one of the worst, if not the worst, offender Machinist.

    JD (a11954)

  140. I would not agree, JD. You are also one of the best commenters, IMHO.

    Machinist (9780ec)

  141. Ignoring trolls does not work for various reasons. Trolls and the constantly dishonest like Intelliology must be ridiculed repeatedly.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  142. JD, it’s clearly not my site and if the commenters here prefer the troll parties then so be it. Too bad for me. What I don’t get is the commenters complaining about the trolls when they clearly encourage and enable them. The trolls can not hijack the threads, they can only lead those willing to follow them.

    Machinist (9780ec)

  143. SPQR, Respectfully Sir, to what point? Is there anyone here who does not know they are dishonest trolls and do not debate in good faith? Is it just for your satisfaction? When is it enough?

    Machinist (9780ec)

  144. Comment by MD in Philly — 2/17/2010 @ 3:19 pm

    Wiki tells us that Naismith invented the game of basketball while at the Springfield MA YMCA, and it was first played there in 1891.
    He later founded the B-ball program at Univ KS.

    AD - RtR/OS! (3742c3)

  145. Thanks, Machinist. I am constitutionally incapable of not responding to their mendacity. I am flawed.

    JD (a11954)

  146. Great link, OIDO

    I just had an idea (really).

    Some time ago Patterico launched a sister site, “The Jury Talks Back”.

    Perhaps another parallel site could be started, called “The Courtroom Erupts” or some such. Once a commentor has become a certified troll, his/her comments, and those engaging such person, could be removed to that special place. It could be just one thread, as once trollishness starts the intent of the thread usually derails.

    Of course, instead of an actual separate page, the posts could simply be color coded so those that didn’t want to wade through it could readily pass it by, or flagged with a “Certified Troll” label of some sort.

    This way we could “ignore the troll and harass him/her too”, whichever one’s preference.

    Clearly if this would take more than a trivially minescule amount of time the moderators should not consider it. Or you could sppoint someone to have this specific responsibility.

    MD in Philly (d4668b)

  147. California is an example of a state that is probably hopeless. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Jerry Brown get elected this year as governor. We have never recovered from his last term, which was 30 years ago. My own little city is in danger of default. It is so difficult to get people to pay attention. We went through a whole cycle of trying to toss out some hacks 10 years ago and half the people we got elected, turned into hacks themselves.

    One of the things I liked about Sarah Palin’s book was her description of local government. She told it exactly the way it is which is why I trust the rest of her book. My review of her book has 49 comments, all but two from angry lefties who have never spent a day in local government or state government, other than as a DMV clerk, but they know all about her.

    There is a Hot Air column by Bill Quick warning the GOP not to mistake the seriousness of the tea parties. It almost seems that there is no chance to get back to effective government without a default on the debt. In a couple of years, if we don’t get control of this now, it will be past the point of no return.

    I’m actually thinking seriously of selling my house and moving to the mountains. I remember when a lot of people were getting into survivalist stuff in the 70s. Freeze dried food and the whole thing. That will come again, and not that far from now. I’m not talking about the Rocky Mountains but there are local mountains in California where the circumstances seem to make a nice place to hunker down. In the late 70s, I had a 550 gallon diesel tank in my yard and got rid of my gas cars. I had all diesel cars and filled them from my tank. I may do something like that again.

    Plus the scenery is nice.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  148. “The trolls dominate and control the discussion threads on this site. This is not due to the owner or moderators but the commenters. When a troll has no argument or answer to a post topic he just drops a provocative comment and a handful of commenters jump in to outdo each other in putting down the troll and showing his irrelevance.”

    – Machinist

    Yep.

    Leviticus (f0f166)

  149. Intelliology can’t resist fondling his turds. Recognize it for what it is and respond accordingly. He’s got no game, just pure turd fondling.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  150. Leviticus – the other night you mentioned how some of us should police our side, and call out the more extreme amongst us. Maybe you could help clean up your side of the aisle?

    JD (a11954)

  151. JD, I would say that trolls are not a matter of liberal or conservative. Leviticus has no more connection to the trolls than I do. It is the people who enable the trolls that encourage them, and I have never seen Leviticus do so.

    Machinist (9780ec)

  152. Leviticus and I do not hang out at the same grocery stores, but thanks for demonstrating how truly clueless you are.

    Intelliology (00d844)

  153. Machinist – we can only hope (here in CA) that enough voters will become aware that not all States are fiscally unsound …

    The economy here hasn’t yet gotten to where I would consider moving elsewhere … I would miss my well-established garden with its great variety of fruit trees (and nut trees) …

    As for the trolls, all we have to do is choose to get the discussion back on track – the trolls are just the mountainsa nd swamps in the scenic background – we can comment on them or interact with them as we choose …

    Personally, for education, I like the voucher system – it helps those who cannot afford private schools to have at least a sporting chance of sending their kids to a school which will educate them more than it indoctrinates them …

    Then again, of course, an excellent Classical Education is a form of indoctrination in rational thought, is it not ?

    Alasdair (e7cb73)

  154. Leviticus and I do not hang out at the same grocery stores, but thanks for demonstrating how truly clueless you are.
    Comment by Intelliology — 2/17/2010 @ 4:55 pm

    true that: given the state of your intellectual bankruptcy, you are reduced to hanging out at the clue bank, waiting for castoffs….which, upon receipt, you promptly cross thread then drive in with a hammer, while loudly proclaiming your self-perceived prowess.

    your blatant incompetence is amusing though, and entertaining in a simple fashion.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  155. I just caught up on this thread.

    Machinist, sorry about all the chum I put into the water. Didn’t think it was a big deal, but you are a fellow veteran and if it bugs you, it bugs me.

    I shall refrain.

    Pons Asinorum (b14377)

  156. Machinist, it’s the tragedy of the commons, sorta.

    I refrain from dealing with trolls, after engaging a few quite a bit, and it made no difference because the vacuum was filled.

    You refrain, and people engage them. MD and JD could refrain, and people would engage them.

    What I see is a lot of people just having the discussion anyway, ignoring the trolls mostly. I don’t think the troll engaging (at the same time, but ignored) means it’s domination. But who knows.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  157. Alasdair,
    I moved almost three years ago, from the Sacramento area. I lost about forty to fifty thousand on my house from the top price but still did OK from what I paid. Had I waited the house would have dropped almost another 100K and been less than my mortgage. I was a manual machinist and would probably not have a job there, it was already a shrinking field.

    I agree about vouchers as educations only hope. My complaint is that you still have to pay off the public school to get your kid into something better. It is like CA and NY looking for ways to rip you off for leaving. Instead of providing a functioning economy and a decent environment to raise a family, they want to drive you out and strip you as you leave. Where have we seen that before?

    I love the pride in state and country I see in TX, the courtesy of people, the different attitude. I like the lower taxes and the fact that I bought my home, new, two years ago and it has lost no value. They are still building them here and they sell fast. It is not perfect but it sure makes CA look bad.

    Machinist (9780ec)

  158. Machinist, you’re still right. I just don’t see an alternative.

    Maybe a script that avoids certain commenters (but even that would not work with troll engagement).

    Like I said, I went from engaging them a lot to not at all, because I thought it was making the comment threads a lot worse. It didn’t make any difference at all (and I don’t fault anyone for that).

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  159. Texas schools are actually pretty good, too, despite statistics that compare Texas to states with a lot less illegal immigration. I still like vouchers for Texas because competition is the ultimate motivation.

    Machinist, when you mention property values, I can’t help but think how closely those tie into school quality. Better schools increase property values, which may make schools better, making property values higher, and so on. OK, that’s simplistic, but it absolutely helps with stable communities.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  160. “the other night you mentioned how some of us should police our side, and call out the more extreme amongst us. Maybe you could help clean up your side of the aisle?”

    – JD

    If I recall correctly, it was Subotai who first discussed the policing of sides (but I could be mistaken). My whole point in the exchange was that we were drifting to an overbroad definition of “troll”.

    And Intelliology’s not my “side”, as Machinist points out – I’m interested in the productive discussion of ideas, and he’s not. So I ignore him, because (as Stash correctly points out) if you ignore him he’ll go away.

    Leviticus (037389)

  161. Pons Asinorum,
    thank you Sir, but I would not want anyone to alter their comments for my sake. I am an outsider here.

    Dustin,
    perhaps I’m oversensitive. There have been several important posts on matters of national significance recently. I was looking forward to the thoughts of the professionals and very thoughtful and intelligent commenters here and was disappointed to see them hijacked early on, the discussions abandoned. Just my disappointment. I do feel that people who encourage this should not complain about trolls.

    Machinist (9780ec)

  162. Dustin,
    I think one of the strong points of this site is Patterico’s reluctance to ban people unless they become personally abusive. I would not want to see this change. The trolls that abuse it would have very little effect if they were shunned. If the commenters prefer this game with the trolls then so be it. I usually just stick to reading the posts when I get tired of it but this really is the best group of commenters I have ever seen and a good discussion here is priceless so I miss it soon.

    Machinist (9780ec)

  163. Sorry for the whining. Enough.

    Machinist (9780ec)

  164. Jerry Brown?

    I’m looking forward to Jerry Brown as Governor and Gavin Mewsome as Lt Gov.

    …..by moving to Costa Rica

    SteveG (909b57)

  165. On the subject of the economy and the value of money, this might be of interest. This is the guy who said the real estate market was a bubble in 2006. He is now saying the currency will collapse. I hope not but worry.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  166. sorry

    Newsome

    SteveG (909b57)

  167. Steve, that is definitely an option bit I have grandchildren. I also thought about the south of France. Los Angeles will be pretty ugly if the the feds default.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  168. …..by moving to Costa Rica

    It is beautiful and friendly there. Spent 4 months outside of San Jose years back at language school. You could easily do worse, and would have a hard time doing better.

    MD in Philly (d4668b)

  169. Mike K… I remember reading an interview back in December of ’06 with a guy who was described as Dick Cheney’s (and others) investment broker and he went into great detail about the housing bubble and its ripple effect. It was a true doomsday scenario. I passed it around my office and – unfortunately – we all soon forgot about it.

    We discussed it again early last year after all of us California homeowners found ourselves underwater on our mortgages… far too late.

    Had to be the same fellow.

    GeneralMalaise (ee9197)

  170. machinist, you’re not whining. And of course, Patterico’s strong, strong free speech support is ultimately worth the price. Not just theoretically, but when there are really sticky arguments. I agree, though, enough about this.

    Dustin (b54cdc)

  171. No worries Machinist, happy to oblige (it really is not a big deal for me). This is Patterico’s house so technically, we are all outsiders.

    Totally agree on your observation about this being the “best group of commenters I have ever seen.” I would also add — some of the funniest (I think JD rocks the house).

    Many of those commeters act as antibodies battling an infection. It is the nature of some to defend and some to “hunker-down”. Like you suggest; to each his own.

    Me? I’m just happy to be here 😉

    Pons Asinorum (b14377)

  172. a darkly amusing by-product of California’s slow self-destruction is the ongoing migration of residents to states like Oregon and Colorado where the fugitives promptly start recreating the very conditions they were fleeing.

    a case in point would be the recent vote to raise taxes in Oregon against both “the rich” and “businesses” both of which will likely respond in predictable fashion by either moving or reducing their taxable income.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  173. We discussed it again early last year after all of us California homeowners found ourselves underwater on our mortgages… far too late.

    Had to be the same fellow.

    Comment by GeneralMalaise

    I figured some of it out when we were talking about remodeling. I decided rather than go through a remodel, maybe I would just sell the house and buy a bigger one. We drove around and looked at houses. I was shocked and wondered where the hell these people were getting the money for these million dollar houses with 10 foot back yards.

    I wish I’d sold my place and rented like a couple of smart kids did. Still, I’m not underwater but I lost at least $300 k.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  174. The women’s downhill was most excellent to watch.

    JD (f8be7b)

  175. > He noted the State’s “fiscal year ends in June, when it is required by law to have a balanced budget, unlike the federal government.”

    Well, they could take a leaf from NY state’s playbook for dealing with budget shortfalls in the face of balanced budget requirements, and just sell Rutgers University to their “independent” state bonding agency, and then rent it back…

    I mean, given the total lack of a requirement for the use of GAAP, why the hell not play fast and loose?

    :oP

    .

    IgotBupkis (79d71d)

  176. At least Governor David Paterson of New York can see the handwriting on the wall. From Paterson’s State of the State address in January:

    “You have left me and other governors no choice,” Mr. Paterson, the former State Senate minority leader, said. “Whether it be by vetoes or delayed spending, I will not write bad checks, and we will not mortgage our children’s future.”

    “No longer are we going to run New York like a payday loan operation,” the governor vowed.

    No wonder New York Democrats want to get rid of him.

    Official Internet Data Office (99772e)

  177. From a Columbus Dispatch article that I linked to from an article I wrote that was linked to from the “link central” I gave above (it pays to link-surf, especially if you claimed to do so), comes this wonderful quote:

    But [Democrat Governor Ted] Strickland, who unsuccessfully tried to eliminate most vouchers in Ohio, said, “Funding private schools with public tax dollars deprives the state and its taxpayers of proper oversight.”

    And that’s it in a nutshell. The fact private schools do a better job educating the children isn’t important. The fact the State doesn’t have power over them is the important part. So we continue to spend far more money than necessary on education to get a far lower than desired outcome strictly because Liberal Government wants the control.

    John Hitchcock (181b3b)

  178. The NJEA – one of my favorite organiztions – already has ads on the air urging people to call and protest the education cuts.

    JEA (3fc310)

  179. And that comes as a surprise?

    JD (72cf0d)

  180. a darkly amusing by-product of California’s slow self-destruction is the ongoing migration of residents to states like Oregon and Colorado where the fugitives promptly start recreating the very conditions they were fleeing.

    Comment by redc1c4 — 2/17/2010 @ 6:29 pm

    Been happening in Eastern PA, where NJ and NY folks come in a wave every ten years or so. They have driven up our taxes to the point of many older folk having to give up their homes.

    Inevitably, we’ve had to build new, state-of-the-art schools. The public education cronies are only too happy to pick the pockets of their new benefactors.

    Eventually they demand new parks, township community centers, to make their new home more like there old home. Adding insult to injury, they laugh at us when attempt to control taxes, arguing that we’ve not really seen out of control taxation, and should be happy they are here to increase the value of our property.

    Will be interesting to see if Christie’s attempt at reform encourages New Jerseyians to stay put, or if it leads to the next exodus across the Delaware.

    Matador (176445)

  181. Re Mike K. at #167,

    Thanks for the link.

    One of the things that makes me at least consider what Glenn Beck says, even if it sounds off the wall, is that I heard him explain what was happening in the real estate and derivatives markets and that it was going to implode many months before it happened and before I heard any mention of it anywhere else. He won’t name his source on these issues, but readily admits it’s not his own expertise that he relies on.

    Beck in the same way has said this source predicts the stock market will crash again by at least 50%, and that the threat of hyperinflation and US paper currency becoming greatly devalued is very real and likely to happen.

    Personally, I wish I bought gold a few years ago when it was in the $600/ounce range, but that’s 20-20 hindsight. I’ve also seen where some have suggested silver is gaining a significant percentage in value.

    MD in Philly (e347b2)

  182. Mike M. and MD. These are, indeed, foggy times. Times where the potential for massive changes are much more likely. Gold may have been a good investment, and may yet still be. Canned goods are also a good hedge. I know it sounds funny – but it’s hard to beat making purchases of things you know you will use regardless of what happens.

    It’s not likely those purchases will be cheaper in the future – and somewhat to very likely they will be more expensive. At the same time, the value of a dollar against all items is likely to fall.

    I keep wondering where to put my family’s stock and mutual fund assets. On the one hand, if that all falls dramatically, everyone in the market is affected equally. Of course, not everyone is in the market, and those in are in with differing amounts.

    How many people can feed themselves for more than a few months if they have no income? If prices food double? Or go up ten-fold?

    I doubt our current leaders have the guts (and balls) to make the tough choices and slash spending. When you look at our history, we have been piling up debt for several decades – and we’re still here, business as usual. Are we at a brink? I think so. The camel can only carry so much.

    Corwin (ea9428)


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